Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - How to Deal with NORMIES! Call In Show

Nov. 10, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:35:02

How to Deal with NORMIES! Call In Show

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Hi Steph, I've been listening for around five years, discovered, discovered you just before you're deplatforming.
	My issue is slightly different from the majority of your call-ins, but probably rooted in the same issues.
	I'm in my early 60s, and my current wife and I are considering separation after 30 years, and I'm seeking understanding of whether to fight to remain or to move forward on my own.
	The main issue, as I see it, is that our views don't coincide.
	I've over the years gone from an animal rights activist and general liberal leftist, moved towards scientific scepticism and atheism to now a position of many of the positions you espouse.
	My wife, however, is still in NPC land, doesn't really engage in the world in that way and maintains broadly liberal viewpoints without needing to explore or question them.
	This generally is not a problem in everyday life as we get on well and have a good, comfortable life.
	In a one-to-one scenario, it is generally fine, but problems have arrived recently when being with other people, with friends and relatives, many or most of who are similar NPC leftists.
	In conversations, I don't go full in by any means, but do often question the narratives and I'm seeing somewhat as a curious contrarian.
	In these scenarios, my wife gets quite very annoyed with me to a point where she now gets uptight and anxious when we are with other people.
	Quick background of our family situation.
	We were both married before.
	I had three children with a child abuse victim, which ended up in acrimonious separation and the courts.
	I didn't have contact with my children for about eight years and only reunited with them when they were about 18.
	I'm now very close to them all.
	My wife had a child from previous marriage who I live with since she was three and consider her my daughter.
	And we get on well.
	We then had two children of our own, even though my knowledge of your peaceful parenting was not then known.
	We have broadly parented in that way, although certainly not perfectly.
	Yep.
	Nice.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And 30 years.
	Wow.
	I mean, congratulations and four kids.
	Congratulations.
	I mean, where would you like to start?
	It seems that I sort of live life on a sort of edge of wanting to be truthful and be myself, as it were, and not being and like towing the line and doing what's right.
	I think I'm quite a, what's the term?
	Where the route of least resistance, I think, is something like that, where I tend to operate where I don't rock the boat too much.
	And yeah.
	So that's my main conflict in that it's it that sort of being truthful is not always possible, it seems.
	And after having listened to you, then where that seems more important than it used to, then it's it's it's causing sort of disharmony, I guess, in myself.
	Well, in yourself or in your social circle?
	Well, it is in my social circle as well.
	But I always sort of hold back in that.
	I mean, what's slightly difficult because I'm later on and I've had a lot of these friends for a long time and I've had my wife for a long time.
	we've been together a long time, then it doesn't seem the same as just saying, well, these people are, you know, they're not going to listen to me.
	And if they don't listen to me, then I will reject them from my life.
	That almost seems too radical.
	So I guess it's more of a pragmatic sort of way of operating in the world of just saying, well, this is what I've chosen and this is what I've got.
	And mostly it's not a problem.
	And it's, you know, and in some ways, you know, I listen to your call-ins and that.
	And lots of the people's difficulties and problems seem like really major.
	And so I almost feel slightly fraudulent.
	This is, you know, I've got a very comfortable life and it's quite easy.
	And I've just got like this small problem.
	It just seems slightly inconsequential.
	So I feel a bit guilty even about bringing it up.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Let's get to the issues themselves, not the how you feel.
	Because you did bring it up.
	So we'll just short with that.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So tell me a little bit about your journey from left to, I don't know, wherever philosophy is.
	Yeah, do you want me to go right back or?
	Since you're asking me a question that I don't know the variables, I can't answer it.
	Okay.
	Well, I could do a brief summary is that I'm an only child and I was my parents were very young.
	My mum was like 18 when she had me and I think I was an accident.
	And my dad's parents were born-again Christians and my mum's parents were entrepreneurs.
	Yeah, so my childhood was so it was pretty good, really.
	It was like I've, you know, I didn't get hit.
	I didn't really get shouted at.
	It was, you know, I was a slightly spoilt only child, probably.
	My dad was not that present, really.
	He was sort of a bit aloof.
	But my mum was quite loving and supportive.
	I went to quite a rough boys' school where I sort of learned to be a bit of a class clown in order to.
	Can I just ask you for a tiny favor?
	I know you're British and all, but the stuff is going to drive me slowly insane.
	If you can just like, whatever it is, you need to relax, because the is generally are you resisting the story or not being present in the story or trying to gauge the effect of the story.
	So if you could just do me a favor and just take a deep breath and try and minimize the ah, everyone's mental.
	It's funny.
	I was totally not aware of that at all.
	That's fine.
	That's fine.
	Yeah, God.
	So I went to a boys' school, which was quite rough.
	And I was the clown of the class because it stopped me getting bullied basically by all the tough kids.
	So school was, I was fairly uninterested and I was always told that I was bright, but I never applied myself.
	So I left school at 15 with no real qualifications.
	I then went to, I apprenticed as a chef for a while and then went, but that didn't work out.
	And then I went back to college and did some exams, but I didn't really complete them.
	And by this time, when I was 19, I met my first wife and we got together fairly quickly.
	And then we had our first child.
	This is the woman who had a history of child abuse, right?
	The one you ended up in the context of school battles with.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So what did your parents say about you leaving school at 15?
	They were accepting of it.
	I think they didn't think I was particularly bright.
	And yeah, but you had to have some kind of plan, right?
	You just leave school and cross your fingers, right?
	Well, I had this vague plan of being a chef.
	And so I did that for a year, but it was like split shift starting at seven in the morning and finish at seven at night with a couple of hours off in the afternoon.
	And it put me off working in employment for the rest of my life, I think.
	Yeah, I've done that split shift as a waiter.
	It's a lot of useless time in the middle of the day.
	Yeah.
	So I was not that applied to know what I wanted in life or anything like that.
	So I just drifted really.
	But at this point, I started to get what I would now probably call ideologically captured.
	My dad was sort of rebelled against his Christian upbringing.
	And I sort of did a similar thing.
	And I, what was I?
	I'm just trying to.
	I became active in the animal rights movement, along with all the other things that sort of went with it.
	So the sort of CND and peace movements, anti-nuclear.
	CND?
	The campaign for nuclear disarmament, which was which was big in Britain at the time.
	And the sort of beginnings of environmentalism as well at that point.
	Well, all of the leftist funded deindustrialization and disarming the enemy, all of the communist-funded stuff.
	Yeah, it was all that.
	And my other, my other sort of vague thing at the time was about alternative communities, which weirdly, I still live in one now.
	So the whole of my adult life, I've lived in the sort of utopian communities as they were sort of set up.
	Although nowadays, it's less utopian and more capitalist and practical.
	So it's even though it has a vestige of the old idealism, it's not quite as idealistic as one might imagine.
	But that's a sort of side issue in a way.
	So with my first wife, then we were both active in the animal rights movement.
	And that's what got us together.
	So I'm sure there were lots of people active in the animal rights movement.
	So if you had a good childhood, and this is just a question I have in general, if you had a good childhood, how do you match up with someone who had a bad childhood?
	It's usually not the case.
	And so what are your thoughts, if that's a reasonable possibility that it's I've got to figure out the compatibility here?
	Sure.
	I think even though I had a good childhood, I don't think I had much instruction.
	I think it was somewhat libertarian, I guess.
	And I was sort of left.
	No, I don't know.
	I'm sorry.
	Hang on.
	But libertarianism is a very strong and staunch philosophy.
	And so, but do you mean neglect?
	I wouldn't say neglect as I wouldn't say neglect.
	I mean, I think I was left to my own devices a lot and I became quite self-reliant.
	Well, no, you can't become self-reliant.
	You can't because there are dangerous, manipulative people in the world, and you need to be trained and warned about them, right?
	I mean, if you lived in Africa, you would like on the edge of the jungle or the Serengeti, you'd have to train your kids about predators, right?
	You couldn't just let them wander all over the place and meet a lion, right?
	Sure, but I think in my childhood, it was somewhat safer than it is now.
	And so I know it wasn't because you married a dangerous woman, right?
	Yeah, sure enough.
	So that's my question: is it is profoundly neglectful for parents to not teach their children about evil, corruption, manipulative people, red flags.
	You're just, you're really throwing your lambs to the walls, right?
	Yeah, I guess that's true.
	I'm sorry to interrupt again, but your parents are Christian, right?
	No.
	Oh, I'm so sorry.
	I thought they were there.
	No, it was the grandparents that were Christian.
	Grandparents.
	Okay.
	So the grandparents would have taught your parents about dangerous and evil people because that's foundational to Christianity, right?
	That the world is full of manipulative people who are going to try and lead you down the easy path towards self-destruction, right?
	I don't think they would have.
	I mean, they're supposed to.
	They're supposed to, but they didn't.
	I'm pretty sure they didn't because they were on the extreme end of evangelical.
	And it seemed to me there was not much instruction.
	It was just like dogged use of the Bible, Bible thumping, essentially.
	Yes, but in the Bible, it says that Satan runs the world and there are more dangerous people than safe people around.
	Sure.
	Because my parents totally rejected their Christian thing anyway, then they were certainly not coming from any Christian point of view.
	And I think being very young parents themselves, then they were not really, they didn't know what they were doing, I guess.
	Okay.
	So they didn't.
	I mean, but they knew you were being bullied, right?
	No, I wasn't being bullied.
	Oh, because you became the class clown, but you said it was a problem.
	Oh, really?
	Yeah, I wasn't.
	It was a rough school.
	I wasn't bullied, though.
	I was never hit in my time at school.
	I sort of, you know, behaved in a way that I could sort of be accepted by everyone sort of thing.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So your parents recognized that, I mean, did they recognize that there are evil or dangerous or manipulative people in the world and instruct you on basic self-defense socially?
	No, no, they never did anything like that.
	And you think of instructions that they gave you when you were younger that you found of practical value over the course of your adulthood or teenage years?
	That's an interesting question.
	No, I can't think of anything particularly useful that they taught me.
	It felt like I had to learn everything when I was out in the world myself, really.
	Right, but you can't do.
	It's like if your kids, if it's a parent, you don't teach your kids language.
	And then say, well, I had to go out and invent my own language.
	It's like, but you can't really do that.
	Sure.
	Okay, so why do you think your parents didn't help you to navigate wisely through the world?
	Either they had wisdom but didn't transfer it, or they had no wisdom themselves.
	Well, I think my mum did her best to try and give me advice about things, but no, I don't.
	Come on, man.
	You've listened to the show long enough to know that give her best is just mealy-mouthed nonsense, right?
	I don't know.
	What does it mean to do your best?
	Right?
	To do your best would be to recognize that you have a deficiency and to go and study and learn and become wiser, right?
	And then transfer that knowledge.
	You know, like if my kid is doing algebraic long division and I don't remember how to do it, then I need to study it so that I can teach her, right?
	Yeah, I guess, yeah.
	So doing her best would be to gather wisdom, recognizing she was deficient in wisdom, to gather wisdom and then pass it along to you.
	So you didn't have to try and invent the entire history of Western morality at the age of 15.
	Yeah, I guess that's true.
	Okay, so why didn't she lift a finger, really, to help instruct you about the ways of the world?
	I don't know the answer to that question.
	I think I do.
	You do.
	I mean, it's cute that you apply that one too.
	That's fine.
	But you do.
	You do know the answer to that.
	Because, I mean, if you don't know the answer, okay, how long did your mom live?
	I assume she's not in the morphal realm anymore.
	No, she's still alive.
	Yeah.
	In fact, my parents are.
	Okay, so you've known her for 60 plus years, right?
	Now, if you don't know something about someone after you've known them for 60 plus years, then knowledge of the other is impossible.
	Yeah, I mean, I would say my mom is a very loving person, but she's not the brightest.
	Okay.
	So these are two more.
	I mean, I don't know how much time you want to waste, but these are two mealy-mouthed bits of nonsense.
	She's very loving, but maybe not the brightest.
	Okay, I understand.
	I fully accept that neither you nor me, nor your mother, are the very most intelligent human beings on planet, on the planet.
	I will absolutely accept that.
	But can you say that it is loving to refuse to pass along essential wisdom and knowledge of the world and good and evil to your son?
	Is this that loving?
	To not do that?
	Well, no, it's not loving, but if you haven't got that wisdom, how can you pass it on?
	Are you saying that your mother, how old was she when she had you?
	30?
	No, she was 18.
	18, sorry.
	So when your mother was 18, by the time you needed moral instruction, which in particular is around your teenage years, right?
	So by then, she would have been in her late 20s, early 30s, right?
	Sure, yeah.
	So is it your argument?
	And maybe it is, right?
	But I just want to understand, is it your argument that in 30 years on the planet, your mother had learned nothing about how to navigate through the world?
	She'd read nothing.
	She'd learned nothing.
	She hadn't seen anything.
	She'd never been given any good advice.
	She was in possession of zero nuggets of wisdom.
	Well, enough wisdom that she didn't hit me or shout at me.
	And so there was lots of things she did that was right.
	But maybe she could have done more.
	Yes.
	Again, mealy mouth stuff.
	Maybe she could have done more.
	I mean, that's true of anyone, right?
	About anything, right?
	So my question is, you said maybe she didn't have the knowledge.
	So then my question is, if by her early 30s, is it the case that by her early 30s, your mother had not learned anything about how to navigate in a moral or wise way through the world?
	Let me ask you this.
	Did your mother teach you anything about right and wrong?
	Did she say, for instance, well, it's wrong to hit kids or don't take their stuff or it's nice to share and so on?
	Like, did she give you moral instruction as a whole?
	Yeah, I guess.
	I guess that the basic moral instruction, you know, about stealing and lying and that then that was there.
	And I was not a bad kid.
	I was fairly moral as kids go.
	So she knew that truth was a value and lying was bad and wrong, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so she said, tell the truth and don't lie.
	And the flip side of that or the mirror of that, if you say to your kids, don't lie, you also have to say to your kids, don't believe liars.
	Because what's the point?
	That's like unilateral disarmament.
	Well, I'm not going to tell any lies, but I'm also going to have no way of telling who's a liar.
	That just means that liars run the world, right?
	Yes, yes.
	So did she teach you?
	She taught you, don't lie, don't steal, but did she teach you, here's how to identify liars to make sure you don't believe liars?
	Because, of course, if you're told something by someone and you can't evaluate whether that person is telling you the truth, then you have no way of being honest yourself because you might repeat it, right?
	And it's wrong or it's incorrect or it's a lie.
	So without the ability to determine truth from falsehood, how on earth are you supposed to be honest?
	Yeah, okay.
	I get that.
	And I, no, I didn't, I didn't get that instruction.
	So looking back on your first wife, what were the red flags that showed up before you got married?
	I'm not.
	She was quite quiet and reserved.
	And that was possibly all.
	In some ways, I was quite scared.
	Going to a boys' school, I didn't come across girls very often.
	And I had like one girlfriend at 15 that was not that serious.
	And I always felt a little bit inadequate around girls.
	And so she was almost like the first person who showed an interest in me, as it were.
	Okay.
	How long did you go out before you got married?
	Well, we got married after she got pregnant.
	So we got together when I was 19 and our first child was born when I was 22.
	So we were together for like two or three years or something before we had our child and got married.
	Okay.
	So you were together for two or three years.
	And did she show any red flags in those two to three years?
	Not initially, but after she told me about her abuse after we'd been living with her parents for a while and then it wasn't going well.
	And then at some point she said, oh, I was sexually abused by my father repeatedly as a child.
	And How long into the relationship was this?
	Probably a year or two.
	Something like that.
	Okay, that's a big span.
	But okay, so before you got married, you found out that she was the untreated victim of heinous childhood sexual abuse.
	I assume she hadn't gone to therapy or anything like that.
	She hadn't gone to therapy.
	No, she, I was the first person she'd ever told.
	Okay.
	And from age to what age?
	I think it was quite young from about eight or nine or something till around 15 or 16.
	And I assume, so she was still living under this predator's roof when you were with her.
	No.
	I'm sorry.
	I know you said you were living at her parents' place.
	My apologies.
	No, no, we just went to live with her parents when we were in the early 20s, when I was in my early 20s, like 21 or something.
	We lived up there for a little while with her parents.
	And that was when I that's when she told you.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And what then?
	Did you tell your parents?
	I don't think I did.
	Why do you think you didn't?
	I don't know.
	I think it was a thing that was that I didn't.
	It was not a thing for me to share.
	What did you mean?
	It was going to be part of your family.
	What do you mean it's not yours to share?
	Well, that's why I live with her for the next 50 years.
	I guess that's what I felt at the time.
	It was a thing that it was her thing, and it was not mine to share with my parents at that point.
	I can't actually remember.
	I did tell them at some point, but I'm not sure at what point.
	Well, I guess after you were married, right?
	I guess so, yeah.
	That doesn't ring bells of when I told them.
	I must have done.
	Because.
	But sorry, I mean, either if it's not yours to tell, why would you tell them later?
	I think after our first child was born, then she did start to go to therapy, and we were involved.
	It was lots of sort of new age-y sort of stuff.
	And there was lots of sort of child abuse.
	What's the term?
	I can't even remember now, but it was like groups of women who were abused who were all in groups together and support, you know, support groups and things.
	So there was lots, lots of child abuse support groups and types of therapy.
	I'm not looking back now, I'm not sure it was the best therapy.
	It was all it was all lots of people together in pain who like screaming in the woods kind of stuff.
	Yeah, it was a bit like that.
	Yeah.
	So it was sort of the beginnings.
	It was when I first realized that all men are bastards sort of thing because it was that sort of thing in a way.
	Sorry, what do you mean you realize all men are bastards?
	Well, very much the emphasis of it was that there were a lot of all the women who were sexually abused and then they had partners who were like supporting them through them in quotes healing from this.
	Well, it's not healing to say all men are bastards, right?
	No, but it definitely was my first insight of the sort of feminist worldview of the men are the problem in the world.
	And it's men that has caused this.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So how long were you married for?
	About nine years or something like that, nine or ten years.
	And did she leave you or did you leave her?
	She well, it was a bit, it was slightly peculiar in a way because she was even so nine years on and we'd by this time we had three children who at that point were about ten, eight and six or something like that.
	And so she'd been, I'd been like supporting her for a long time, like going to therapy and doing lots of stuff around it.
	And she was still quite a reserved person.
	She was not very outgoing.
	And, you know, I would have said that she was quite a good mother in a way.
	I'm sorry.
	What was her relationship with her father like over this period?
	Oh, by this time, she cut him off.
	Okay.
	And her mother?
	She cut her off as well because the mother was quite complicit with the whole abuse.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	Yeah, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	So at this time, so suddenly she went to some sort of weird healer guy and came back and she was like a transformed person.
	And she suddenly went from being this sort of timid and socially not very adept person to being someone who was who was totally sort of out there and sort of, you know, it was almost like a feminist type thing.
	I've found my power sort of thing.
	And you said that she went to a healer and what was she trying to heal from?
	I mean, obviously, there's sexual abuse, but what symptoms was she trying to remediate?
	Well, that's, I don't know.
	I mean, she was seeing lots of therapists and healers and, you know, alternative therapies and that sort of stuff.
	So I've no idea, really.
	It was, there was nothing specific that she was healing from.
	It was just the whole gambit of the remnants of sexual abuse.
	But so she suddenly transformed, literally overnight, she was a sort of changed person.
	And at this point, we were living with a group of other people.
	We had a small holding and were growing vegetables and doing the whole little house on the prairie thing, basically.
	And so she suddenly, overnight, suddenly announced to me that she had attractions to all these other guys who were living there and that she wanted to separate or explore, explore this with all these other people so that well i hope one of them wasn't her healer No, it wasn't.
	No, but none of that worked out with any of these guys.
	No.
	And then when so then I thought.
	So she said basically, I want an open marriage?
	Yeah, basically.
	I mean, if you're living on a commune, it's almost like countdown to polygamy, right?
	Okay, so she wanted an open marriage.
	And what did you say?
	And I basically said no.
	Okay.
	And then what?
	Well, then it all we tried.
	It basically all fell apart, basically.
	I'm so sorry.
	I don't know what happened to that.
	You said, she says, I want to sleep around.
	You said, no, we're monogamous.
	But did she then just go and sleep around?
	Basically, yes.
	Okay.
	And did she tell you or was it secret?
	No, it wasn't secret.
	She told me and, and so that was a.
	That was a very hard experience for me and in that, in that position then I felt I had to leave, so I left the family home because it was just too hard.
	And uh, then we had uh, the children were homeschooled and so ultimately, so then we had them for half the time each and and that's how that manifested.
	But then the other thing that slightly changed was that um she, she got, she got together with this new guy who was not actually part of the community we lived in, who all the people in the community were, were not interested in it, in her and her newfound thing.
	And she got together with this new guy and he was basically a very sort of closed down and weird sort of I don't, I don't know.
	He was like the opposite of being open.
	He was a very closed down person and she reverted back to her original self.
	She and, if anything, she became even more closed down.
	So she became, you know, we lived out in the middle of the country and we never locked doors or anything, and suddenly she was like they were putting fences up and locking doors and they were, they were quite paranoid about the world and and everything.
	Uh, so it became increasingly difficult, with the children going backwards and forwards.
	There was more sort of acrimony, and it wasn't great for them at all.
	Okay, and then uh, ultimately I the children were half the time with me and half the time with her, and one day so they were homeschooled, so that was possible.
	And then one day I was supposed to pick them up and she basically wouldn't let me, and ultimately I found out, and then she sent them to school, and then it became impossible for and basically said, you can't see the kids anymore.
	So that boarding school?
	No, it wasn't.
	No, but I I by this time I lived further away, so when the kids came to me, I had to travel to get to them and pick them up and then take them back to my home.
	And so what did the kids know sorry, what did the kids know about why the marriage had split up?
	Uh, they knew pretty much everything, I think.
	So they knew that your mother just sorry that they wanted to sleep her out.
	Yes yes gosh okay, all right, it was, and so at this point, so I then went to solicitors and things like that to try and get access, and then so over the next.
	So I didn't see them for a while then, and how long?
	Roughly months well, a year maybe okay, and then in that point I went.
	We went to mediators quite a few times, but basically they came down on her and after a couple of sessions, then she just said, I'm not doing this anymore.
	And then there were psychologists involved and they saw both of us separately.
	Hello, can you hear me?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Can you hear me?
	Yep, we're good, we're good.
	The joys of modern technology.
	No kidding, right?
	All right.
	Yeah, where was I?
	Where was I?
	Oh, yeah, you were just talking about how it took a year to get to the court case and then it was resolved.
	You're supposed to be able to see the kids, but then she said they were too freaked out and she didn't hand them over.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, that's correct.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So they, so she didn't hand them over.
	And then I was going to go back to court.
	And then I got letters from each of the children saying, we actually don't want to see you anymore.
	In fact, one of them, my son, who was by this time, maybe 10, he just sent me a letter saying, fuck off.
	I never want to see you again.
	And the other two, my other two daughters, it was slightly more polite, but it basically said, don't contact us.
	We'll contact you.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So I guess they did their work on the kids, right?
	They did their work on the kids.
	And so then, so at that point, I decided not to go back to court because I just thought it was sort of slightly pointless to actually fight it because I was never because they'd been turned against me.
	It was just like it was probably going to be worse for them if I'm just constantly on their backs.
	And then if you go back to court, if you go back to court and then they ask the kids and the kids say, we don't want to see him, then there's a problem, right?
	So, I mean, that was an incredibly hard part of my life there because it felt like I'd and I'd been very close to them being homeschooled.
	And I spent, you know, a lot of my time with them when they were young.
	And so when they when I didn't see them anymore, they were just gone out of my life.
	That was, it was hard.
	And so at that point, I thought I should sort myself out a bit.
	And so I started to go to therapy and try to make sense of it.
	I became involved in sort of men's rights groups around, you know, sort of, there was a group in Britain called Families Need Fathers.
	And so I was involved with that.
	And yeah, and I just basically got on with life.
	And I still sent them letters and presents.
	And there was like a third party, a brother who I was in contact with who, you know, passed things on.
	But I never knew whether anything got through or not.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So that was the scenario until that was eight years that went on for.
	So I didn't see them for eight years.
	Oh, right.
	And then they got back.
	Did your wife ever circle back?
	Did she ever say that might have been a bit strong or harsh or how did things go with her?
	No.
	Okay.
	No, you never the same guy?
	No, that all went terribly pear-shaped a couple of years ago.
	Only fairly recently, but a couple of years ago.
	And yeah.
	And, you know, subsequently, I've talked to my children about it and their stories of the life that they had after I left was somewhat horrendous.
	Right.
	So it makes me wonder whether I should have fought harder, but it felt at the time it was the only option I had.
	Right, right.
	And I'm sure that you talked to people and tried to figure out whether it was worth pursuing or not.
	And so, okay.
	All right.
	Okay.
	Go ahead.
	Well, I'm just circling back a little bit to you talking about my mum.
	And so it seems for how my mum failed me as a child sort of paled into insignificance.
	So how I failed those three children.
	That's what it sort of felt like.
	Okay.
	And I appreciate that.
	And how did you fail them?
	I mean, you could have gone back to court, but if they don't want to, if they tell the court we don't want to see him, and heaven forbid, right?
	I'm not saying this would happen, but it certainly does happen.
	Heaven forbid that you get accused of some sort of serious impropriety with your children in order to keep them, right?
	I mean, it's very common in divorce proceedings, and that would have been a complete catastrophe, right?
	So if they don't want to see you, they're being brainwashed that way.
	And then they might be coached to be even worse or say even worse things.
	It's hard to know how you could have done better, if that makes sense.
	Well, obviously, what I could have done better is, as you sort of alluded to at the beginning, in a way, is that I could have seen the red flags regarding my wife in the first place.
	Well, okay.
	And that's certainly fair, but you got together when you were, what, 18, 19?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So how, and you had no training from your parents?
	Yes.
	So help me understand how you would have how you would have been able to do that.
	No, maybe not.
	No.
	Well, no, I mean, I'm open to hearing the case.
	No, no, I mean, I was, it did feel like going into the world of relationships when I was 18, 19, then I just, it was like, I had absolutely no idea whatsoever.
	Well, I'm assuming that your first wife was like, you know, sexy and pretty or charming in some way that kind of bypassed the whole evaluate the person from a stability standpoint.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I guess that's true.
	Yes.
	Right.
	So, I mean, one of the things that parents have to teach their kids, of course, is do not fall prey to lust.
	Right.
	Lust is when, you know, lust is like sugar, right?
	I mean, sugar is good for the, it's fun for the tongue, but it's bad for the body.
	And lust is, you know, good for our nether regions, but bad for our lives, right?
	Yeah.
	No, I mean, I'd say it probably almost was massively that at that point.
	Sure, sure.
	And I mean, it's not like I've been always perfect in my decision making, but it is, I think, something that parents are supposed to teach their kids about, right?
	Yes.
	And your mother didn't.
	And, of course, I assume that your parents met your first wife before you got married, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Did they think of her?
	They sort of liked her.
	I think they felt she was a bit quiet and a bit reserved.
	I mean, they never said this.
	Well, they sort of implied that that's what they thought.
	They never actually, they never actually took me inside and said anything.
	You know, they just had any feedback on the woman you were going to marry and have kids with, or I guess kids with and we're going to marry.
	No, they never did.
	No, they just supported me in our, you know, in our relationship, really.
	You know, they we on several occasions, we lived with my parents for a while.
	Oh, you and your first wife?
	Yeah, so we lived with them for a little while.
	And even when we first had kids, then we lived with them for a bit.
	And okay, so they had a significant exposure to her.
	And they knew her.
	Now, you said that they supported you.
	Tell me, tell me what you mean by that.
	They supported us in our lives in a sort of not in a monetary sense as such.
	You said they supported me.
	So by not teaching you anything about red flags, by not saying, you know, gosh, you really have to be sure.
	And here's some issues that may be the case and or anything like that.
	By not doing that, that's not being supportive.
	I mean, that's sort of like, you know, if your uncle is smoking and you say, no, smoking is good for you.
	You should just keep smoking.
	Say, well, I'm supporting him.
	It's like, I'm not sure you are.
	Yeah, no, they never gave me any instruction around anything like that.
	In fact, well, especially like my dad, I'd be very dubious about his judge of characters because he would he was very involved in the whole New Age world.
	And he would have people coming around to our house who thought that rocks had consciousness and things like that.
	And he'd think that they were quite rational and sort of normal people.
	And so my trust that he would be a good judge of who was a sane person was not there at that point, certainly, and still not now, actually.
	Okay, so he was bad at that.
	It's a way of the fairies, yeah.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	All right.
	So, but that's not being supportive, though.
	That's sort of my point.
	Yeah, okay, yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And so then you didn't see your kids.
	You said for sort of eight years you were out of touch and then you sort of got with them 10 years in, right?
	Yeah, around about that.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	It was like when they were between 18 and 20.
	Gosh, I'm so sorry.
	That's terrible.
	It's terrible.
	And then do they have any sort of thoughts about what they were told about you or what they wrote to you or anything like that?
	Yeah, we've had long discussions about it.
	And Their memory of it is a little bit sketchy, but I think they sort of concur in a sense with what my feeling was about it was that the wife was so unhinged that me being involved was just sort of problematic.
	And so it was, you know, they accept they basically accepted that it was never going to be a possibility for me to be around because even if my name was mentioned, in fact, it's still the case now.
	This is like, what, 20 years on, if my name is still mentioned now with my kids when they're with her, their mum, that if my name is mentioned, then she still sort of seethes.
	So there's no there's no circling back and taking any responsibility at all.
	I'm sorry about that.
	It's very tough.
	It's very tough.
	All right.
	Okay.
	And because I mean, my, if this helps in terms of like whatever guilt you may be feeling or something like that, my particular view is that mistakes are not made by young people.
	Mistakes are made by young people and their family.
	Yeah.
	That young people, especially in the throes of lust and youthful passions and so on, that you don't make a mistake.
	Your family makes a mistake.
	And, you know, it's not like you have nothing to say or to do with it, but it is not an individual thing, if that makes sense.
	Everyone who is in your life who claims to love you, right?
	They claim to love you, then they should take care of you, right?
	They should watch your back.
	Then everybody knows that people who are young make foolish decisions at times based upon lust and pleasure and hedonism and all the stuff that and in fact, you know, one of the reasons why lust has grown so strong, particularly among young men, is that we're supposed to be taken care of by our families.
	So we're supposed to, our back is supposed to be watched by our families, if that makes sense.
	And if your families fail to watch your back, that is a massive dereliction duty on the part of the parents.
	Sure.
	I mean, that brings me slightly to nearer now.
	So in that 10 years, then I met my second wife and then we had two children.
	And so one of the issue that I'm coming with here is about being able to be truthful and, you know, being honest and stuff like that.
	So one of my sons had a girlfriend a couple of years ago who I thought was very unsuitable and sort of blue-head leftist, basically.
	And so my son is somewhat on the liberal side.
	And it was very, very hard for me to confront him and to say, I don't think this is a good idea and all that.
	And we fell out about it.
	But I think it was the right thing to do.
	But it's very hard to do when your children are, you know, they're keen on somebody.
	And I mean, ultimately, he did split up with her, thankfully.
	And he's now with someone who's, you know, very nice and totally opposite sort of person.
	But it was a very difficult, a difficult thing to do.
	Well, sure, but so what?
	I mean, not all of parenting is easy, right?
	Not all of parenting is pushing your kids on the swing.
	Some of it is challenging.
	Sure, yeah, that's true.
	Okay.
	And I wonder at what point that, you know, so like my son is now 30, nearly 30, no, he's 28, 28 or something.
	And it's just what at what point do I say, make your own judgments?
	Well, never.
	I don't know.
	I never had a life experience, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So I'm really sorry about that.
	Of course, that is every man's nightmare to date a woman.
	She goes unstable and ends up taking the kids.
	That is that is very tough.
	And of course, it is a, I won't get into the politics of it.
	I'm sure you know them as well as I do being in the men's rights area, but it is, I mean, it's just horrible stuff.
	And the system is terrible and the people in it are often terrible.
	And we just have to recognize that.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So you met your second wife and that's gone for 30 years.
	And then over the last, you say, over the last, how long have you been sort of waking up out of the matrix, so to speak?
	Well, probably in the last five years.
	And I did, I went through various sort of morphs away from leftism, but I was into scientific skepticism and atheism.
	So do you mean while you were a leftist or afterwards?
	No, well, it sort of it morphed really.
	It morphed.
	I became, I sort of, I be, I became disillusioned with lots of the ideologies.
	I started to question things.
	And so the more I questioned, then it took me down pathways where I didn't want to go, but it sort of seemed to lead me there.
	So I was in the sort of personal growth movement for quite a while.
	And I would like steward at Anthony Robbins' events and all that sort of thing.
	And I trained as a counselor, but I became even somewhat disillusioned by the whole therapy world in the people I were training with and there were some like the most amazing, wonderful people ended up not being the counselors.
	And the ones who got through the courses seemed to be the ones who were the most disturbed.
	So I became somewhat cynical about that.
	And ultimately, it led and then the whole scientific skeptics movement that got splintered and it was the whole trans issue came up.
	And that was a very weird thing around the skeptic movement because it divided down the line of the TERFs and the non-that whole argument, which was the same with the atheists, really.
	So that was my moving to the right for want of a better term.
	And that's been a bit tricky because a lot of, you know, my friends that have I've grown up with and well, I've grown up, not grown up actually, but who, you know, you tend to meet a lot of parents of your children.
	And we've got quite close friendships and they're still quite quite, you know, tight middle class leftists.
	And I am seen a bit as a bit of a curiosity, A contrarian, I think is the word they use, because I do push back on it quite a lot.
	But I think most of the time I think they don't believe what I'm saying.
	They think that I'm just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative.
	And they don't actually engage with the content.
	And I find that frustrating because it makes me think, at what point do I just say, look, that's enough.
	This is who I am.
	This is who I am, and if you don't like it, then tough, as it were.
	So what percentage of your social life is involved with politics, like people bringing up political issues or things like that?
	Well, see, that's the other problematic thing in a way is that the majority of the time, the social thing is fine because they're not particularly politically motivated people.
	It's not where their interest lies.
	I spend quite a lot of my time sort of interested in how the world works and what's going on and philosophy and all that sort of stuff.
	And it seems that a lot of, and this I would include my wife in this, is that they're they, it's on the periphery, that politics is like a peripheral thing and the way the world operates is a peripheral thing that they occasionally fall into.
	And when they fall into it for the odd five minutes, then they have very strong opinions about it which uh, which come from them listening to Radio 4 or the BBC or, and it it's, you know, you can't, you don't really go very far with it, you know, and and sometimes I just think is is there even any point in me, you know?
	And sometimes I just, I just keep my mouth shut and and just and just say nothing, because it's just like, and 10 minutes later it's passed over and we're, and we're talking about other things, you know.
	So it's not, it's not an issue again, but but I do, I do wonder what, what it would be like to be amongst people who who are, who are more inquisitive, I guess right right okay um, i'm certainly happy to hear more, i'm happy to chat um, whatever works best for you.
	Yeah, so with with my wife, then it again, it's not a, it's not a problem for the majority of time, in fact she, we have lots of things in common and she's not.
	I mean, she is a relationship counsellor, so so um, so she's interested in psychology and and lots of stuff around around that, and then she's very interested in Buddhism and stuff like that which we have discussions about.
	Um, so there, there are some some common grounds there, but it still feels like I can't actually, I can't totally be who, who I am and and say what I actually think, because it unacceptable.
	And so we had like a family gathering thing recently and I And it was her family and some of a couple of our kids were there.
	And there was like a big didder discussion about politics and things like that.
	And I opened my mouth and asked questions.
	You know, I only asked questions.
	I wasn't really being that confrontational.
	I was just, you know, I was questioning people's narratives.
	And it basically the whole thing with me and her went pear-shaped because of it, because it was with your advice.
	Yeah, because, you know, she was just feeling that I was being disrespectful to her family.
	And, and, you know, what is it?
	Why have you got these right-wing views?
	It's just then, and, and, so it's, I don't quite know where to go with that, whether I just, you know, when we've had, and since it, we've sort of got through it, you know, and we're quite good at re-centering and getting getting to where the problems are and, you know, what needs to happen.
	But having said that, it's even though she she on the surface wants to hear what I have to say, when, when I, when I try and go into depth about it, then she sort of glazes over, really.
	So on one level, she does, and on another level, she doesn't.
	It's like she doesn't want to hear it.
	Okay.
	And does she say why she doesn't want to hear it?
	No, she doesn't really.
	She doesn't say why she doesn't want to hear it.
	It's just, it's almost like it's, it's, it's not in her interests.
	You know, it's not in, you know, she doesn't, she never listens to the news.
	You know, there's, if there's a war or something, then someone might say something like two or three weeks into the war and say, oh, there's a, what about the war in so-and-so?
	And it's just, oh, what war?
	You know, so she doesn't really engage in that side of the world.
	And sometimes I wish I was like that because it was, it would.
	But yeah, maybe not.
	So she doesn't, she doesn't exactly know why she doesn't want to hear these thoughts or ideas of yours.
	No, but she just she doesn't sort of prioritize it, I guess.
	And then when we so and then so we have a conflict and then this all comes out.
	And then it was like, well, so we, but, but then we revert back to what works.
	And so we operate in a, in a way that works in our relationship.
	And, and then we sort of, it becomes a thing we don't mention again almost.
	It's like, I don't know what it takes to actually get it there to actually confront it properly or something like that.
	And how are your wife's emotional skills and self-knowledge skills as a whole?
	I mean, she's a therapist, right?
	She's a therapist, yes.
	In some ways, that's quite a hard question, really.
	In some ways, she is quite self-aware about some things.
	And in other things, she's not.
	So it's sort of interesting in family situations, then she becomes much more controlling where she's trying to make everything perfect and everything right.
	And Everything that doesn't fit in with that, then she knocks people down and she's she doesn't seem aware that she's doing that.
	Uh, and that's so the the family gathering that we had, which was problematic, then I should have been more aware of it myself in the in those situations.
	Then she does get much, much more uptight and much more sort of out of touch with herself, I would almost say.
	Well, whereas in in normal life, when it's just us two, or then say like we've got grandchildren around and stuff like that now, and it's fine, you know, it's absolutely fine.
	She's she's really good, but there's certain times when it just seems like she has some sort of mental blockage or something, right?
	Okay.
	And then she is she aware?
	Does she say does she say I have a mental block or is she just I'm not talking about it and doesn't really even acknowledge the mental block?
	No, I mean, recently she has been she has been saying she has becoming a little bit more aware of of that sort of behavior of of sort of being a little bit out of control and and sort of losing it.
	And so recently there there has been a bit of movement in that in that it felt like she she was recognizing it a little bit.
	Oh, so some progress, right?
	Yeah, I would say so, yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And so what are your thoughts regarding the possible divorce or a separation?
	Is it mostly because of this issue?
	Yeah, it's mostly to do with that.
	But it's, it's, there's something about like also getting like all our kids have now left home and things like that.
	And it's like this purpose, you know, what purpose in life is there, which is a sort of, it's a big, it's a big thing.
	And, you know, I don't know it's probably a standard thing that happens to people of this age with children this age.
	So it's, it's, uh, I don't know.
	It's probably not that interesting, really.
	Sorry, but it's not that interesting.
	Well, it's, it, it's, I don't know.
	I'm just hearing myself and it doesn't feel that interesting.
	No, I mean, I don't think that.
	Yeah, I don't think that's it.
	Um, and how often do these political like over a given month, how often do these political conversations with people how often they show up?
	Uh, well, it's probably not that often, once or twice a month or something, you know, maybe and with my wife, then I mean, I often try, I try and sort of vaguely push push things in a sort of, in a direction to just sort of point out things a little bit, just to it's almost like I'm testing out the waters or something.
	But uh, and and I'm a bit I'm I'm sort of fed up with being in this sort of limbo almost of of of having to tread on eggshells a little bit about what I say or what I believe or or whatever.
	It's just like, can't we just can't we just have a conversation about it and have it done with?
	But it doesn't it just doesn't seem that's possible, but I don't I don't know why that isn't possible.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And has she been politically motivated or active or involved before?
	No.
	This is not really her thing, right?
	No, it's not her thing at all.
	No.
	it a thing or how much of it of a thing is it with regards to your friends who come over well again they're not they're not politically active they just you know that they don't really have an interest in it other than soundbite really okay you know that's it's it's very npc-ish really it's just like it's like they're not they don't engage in it okay in that way all right All right.
	So would you like the answer?
	Let's do the answer here.
	Okay.
	I think I've galloped enough.
	And that's anything else that you want to mention?
	No, that's pretty much it.
	Okay.
	So the way the answer is this, and you don't have to get divorced.
	And I would, you know, I can't tell anyone what to do, obviously, but I don't know that you're going to find, you know, someone who's this compatible.
	I mean, it's going to take forever to get over your ex and then you're going to be late 60s.
	And, you know, I personally like whatever you can do to stay together would be a plus.
	Is that fairly okay to say?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So the answer is this.
	Are you ready?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	When you were around little kids, do they say stuff that is ridiculous?
	Yes.
	Right.
	So when we got a piano, my wife plays piano.
	My daughter would compose songs that were like three notes when she was very little and she'd say, it's beautiful, right?
	Yes.
	Now, do I sit there and play her Rachmanen off or least and say, well, kid, compared to this, it sucks, right?
	Yeah.
	What do you say when children say things that are, I mean, objectively foolish and wrong, not relative to being kids, but what do you say?
	You give them praise.
	Yeah, that's really cool.
	I'm really glad you did that.
	That's really neat.
	Well done.
	Now, you wouldn't lie to them and say, that's the most beautiful song I've ever heard.
	We have to get the Philharmonic to record it immediately, right?
	But you would say, it's really cool that you did that.
	It's delightful.
	Well done.
	You know, that kind of stuff, right?
	Yes.
	So when children say things, and even when they say absurd things, like if you've ever come across a kid who's got chocolate all over his face and he says, I didn't eat any chocolate, right?
	You don't yell at them, are you liar?
	You know, it's just like, I think you might have a little, right?
	You're indulgent because they're young.
	And I mean, I wouldn't even say foolish, but they're young and they don't really know what they're saying, right?
	So you're indulgent.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yes.
	So when people who aren't trained in philosophy say stuff, they're like children.
	They're saying things they don't understand.
	They're making noises just to be pleasant and they're just repeating what they've been told.
	They don't have the first clue of what they're talking about.
	And like children, they think they know something when they don't, right?
	Yes.
	Like a child will write a lovely little story for you.
	All the words are misspelled and they say it's perfect, right?
	Now, do you sit there and say, plot's a little thin, character development could be stronger.
	And you misspelt a bunch of words, kid.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Indulge them because they're children.
	Does that make sense?
	It does make sense.
	I guess my opinion of myself is that there's still a possibility I am that child as well still, even though.
	Okay, so hang on, hang on, hang on.
	So my understanding, sorry if I got this wrong, my understanding was that the major issues were showing up in social situations.
	Sure, yeah.
	So when I, when I, after listening to you for an hour, 20 minutes, I put in two minutes of an answer, you immediately move the goalposts.
	It's a little annoying, to be honest with you.
	Yes, but what if I'm that child?
	It's like, we're trying to help you socially, bro.
	Yeah, okay.
	Do you see what?
	I mean, do you know what I mean?
	Like, you're tormented with actual politics to the point where you're thinking of dumping your marriage.
	I listen to you for an hour, 20 minutes.
	I give you two minutes of feedback and you move the goalposts.
	I'm unsure whether I am moving the goalposts.
	You are going to, because listen, we could talk for at least another hour or two just on the idea of treating adults like children when they're saying things they don't understand because that's a big old complicated topic, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So you didn't say to me, that's a really interesting perspective.
	You didn't say, how's that worked out for you, Steph?
	You didn't say, I've never heard that before.
	You didn't say, you just simply started talking about something else.
	You also didn't say thank you for listening and mulling through all of this.
	And so I listened for a long time.
	I give you feedback.
	And then you start talking about something else with no acknowledgement of what I just said.
	I'm sorry about that.
	No, it's not, it's fine.
	It's totally fine.
	But the question is, why?
	Like, you ask for this feedback based on social stuff.
	You want to stay married.
	I'm giving you a path to stay married.
	And when you listen back to this, you'll notice that I said finally, right?
	Ask rather than asking questions and give you some feedback.
	Yeah.
	And rather than engage me in the feedback, you went on, well, but I could be that child, you know, and that completely doesn't address what I said with regards to the social stuff.
	Could you throw it to me again?
	Sure.
	So get your life story, which is fascinating and all of that.
	And then I say, well, you want to stay married and the primary issue is the social stuff.
	Yes, I want to stay married and the primary issue is the social stuff.
	Okay, so here's how you approach people socially so that you don't have to get divorced.
	And I said to treat them like you would treat a child's, right?
	Now, that's a pretty, I don't know if you've thought of that before.
	I don't know if you've heard of that before, but I would say that's a fairly novel approach, or at least it's the opening of a way that you might be able to do the social stuff without getting tense, angry, frustrated, and having to divorce your wife.
	Yeah, no, I'm trying to actually assimilate that and because it totally bounced off you.
	It did.
	You're right.
	And listen, that's not, I'm not nagging you.
	I'm not nagging you.
	I'm not, oh, you bad guy.
	I'm not saying anything like that.
	But it did totally ponk.
	It was like throwing a tennis ball on an airplane.
	I think I was waiting for a punchline that never came because I didn't see that what you'd said was the answer.
	I think.
	Well, it might be the answer.
	I can't say for 100% sure, but it's an approach we can ask the scouts, right?
	Yeah, sure, sure.
	And in some ways, occasionally that I possibly have done that, where I just think, oh, this is just a stupid trope that they're saying.
	And I really don't need to rise to it.
	And I don't need to engage with it because it's just silly.
	Well, yeah, I mean, it's, it's, and you, you, you go ahead, sorry.
	No, that's, you know, that's that's that really.
	And so that, but, but I do that in a sort of annoyed way rather than a conscious way.
	Well, you wouldn't do that with kids saying silly things, right?
	No.
	You know, some kid runs down the field and lifts up their arms and says, I'm the greatest runner ever.
	And you sit there and say, well, I got to tell you, you know, there's a couple of guys from Ghana and so on.
	They're really, really fast.
	And, you know, that actually doubled your, like, you wouldn't say that, right?
	Like, good run, great run, you know.
	So do you think it's a little bit patronizing though, from their perspective?
	Well, I don't know about patronizing.
	That's a judgment.
	But do they know what they're talking about?
	No.
	They don't know what they're talking about.
	I mean, listen, go to 99% of people and ask them what is the definition of a government.
	They won't have a clue.
	They say, well, it's a social agency with a monopoly on the initiation of the use of force.
	Like they wouldn't have a clue.
	Go to most people, ask them, what is inflation?
	They're going to say, well, that's prices going up, which is not.
	Inflation is the creation of additional money that outstrips productivity gains.
	Or if you go to people and say, what is the unfunded liabilities of the country you live in?
	They won't say that.
	How is school funded?
	They wouldn't really understand.
	They don't even understand that taxation is extracted from the population under threat of force.
	They just don't know anything.
	No, going back to I only wish I had your eloquence and your mind.
	Doesn't matter.
	Doesn't matter.
	Because part of my difficulty is that I don't feel I'm that eloquent and I don't recall, you know, even though I feel I know all the arguments and I feel I understand things.
	Well, no, no.
	First of all, I'm not.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	So I'm not sure that you lack eloquence, but you're going up against a great headwind, which is your wife and you might split up if you say the next thing.
	Like that's really tough to be eloquent, right?
	Again, it's like trying to do math with people shouting random numbers into your ear.
	So let's not get down on your eloquence.
	I mean, you've certainly been eloquent in telling me your life story and you're an intelligent guy, all of that, right?
	So it's not a matter of eloquence.
	And listen, I'm pretty eloquent.
	And I don't know if you've been following me at all on Twitter.
	How many people's minds have I chosen?
	Have I changed?
	Sorry, how many people's minds have I changed?
	I would say it might make a few people question things.
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	And you in your late 50s started to change your mind about things.
	But the number of people who will listen to reason and evidence and change their minds is in the low single digits at best.
	That's crazy, isn't it, really?
	Well, sure.
	But I mean, you've heard the Milgum experiments and all these kinds of things.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's just data, right?
	People claim to listen to reason and evidence, but we don't.
	And you have to think of genetics, right?
	Of evolution.
	We are not evolved for truth.
	We are evolved for survival.
	We agree with that, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Now, if truth serves survival, we're going to be keen on truth.
	If truth harms survival, which it often does, then we will drop the truth in order to survive.
	Because if we have genes that prefer truth over survival, those genes don't reproduce.
	So they get dropped pretty quickly, like a hot potato, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, but at the same time, so sorry, society needs to believe enormous amounts of bullshit in order to have any kind of stability.
	And so there's a war in society between the people who regurgitate, the NPCs, and the people who think.
	And the NPCs are necessary for some kind of social stability because let's say you've got two tribes, tribe A and tribe B.
	And tribe B, for some freak occurrence, has all of these incredibly original thinkers and brilliant people born.
	They're going to question the gods.
	They're going to question the social structure.
	They're going to question the shaman.
	They're going to question the chief.
	They're going to question the mythology, all of it, right?
	It's going to throw the entire tribe into chaos and disarray.
	And then what happens?
	They get killed by the other tribe.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Because they don't have any cohesion.
	So there is the NPCs provide stability or balance to society.
	And I'm not talking about a future free society, peaceful parenting, voluntaries.
	I'm talking about evolution and right now.
	So the NPCs provide a certain amount of stability, or at least they used to.
	And at the same time, if you have only NPCs, your society doesn't progress.
	It doesn't develop new technology.
	It doesn't develop new agricultural methods.
	So you need, like the body needs a whole bunch of stable genes and then it needs a couple of janky genes at the edges in order for evolution to occur.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So most people are ballast.
	They simply regurgitate what they've been told.
	They pretend to think and they enjoy the social fruits and they get to reproduce.
	And then there are a few people who kind of chomp away at the edges and work to move things forward and to improve things and so on.
	And, you know, it only takes a couple of percent of people in a society to change the whole society.
	So we're just kind of gathering strength and spreading the word and so on.
	But most people, most people will just kill other people if they're told to.
	Most people will, almost everyone will torture someone if they're sort of half instructed to by somebody in a white lab coat.
	And so they are not like you.
	And that's fine.
	You know, people have to be some societies have to be somewhat stable.
	So it's fine that there is stability.
	And of course, most people don't want to be in a time where society is going through a great deal of instability because it's pretty dangerous and toxic.
	And a lot of people get killed, right?
	Or ostracized or tortured or just don't reproduce, which is arguably genetically worse than anything except an early death.
	So you are dealing with the generalized NPC brain bots that keep society stable.
	And they don't want to know that they're NPCs, so they pretend that they know things.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Like when kids, I mean, again, you were around kids when they were very young.
	They don't start saying words.
	They just start saying sounds, right?
	Right.
	So now they think they're saying words or they think that they're saying something that's understandable.
	You know, when I was a little kid, for about a year, nobody could understand what I was saying except for my brother.
	And so when kids, they're just saying stuff, it's pre-language.
	They're just making sounds because they're imitating the mouth sounds of those around them, but they don't have any content.
	And that's where people are stuck, often politically or philosophically, is they're just making sounds based on the sounds they've heard around them, but with no intellectual content.
	And they are like children.
	Now you say, is that patronizing?
	It's like, no, patronizing is when someone is good and you pretend they're not.
	And we don't really think of patronizing children, right?
	I mean, we might patronize somebody who's got cognitive deficiencies as an adult, but even that wouldn't be patronizing.
	Patronizing is a form of, often it's a form of competition, of subverting or undermining competition.
	There used to be a writer in a magazine up here.
	Her name is Donna Lipchuk, and she wrote for a sort of very alternative lefty magazine.
	I don't know if it's still around, newspaper called Now.
	And I just remember many years ago, she had this article where she was saying, they always say that little, you know, if you're in the theater world, oh, how's that little play of yours coming along?
	How's that little role of yours coming along?
	That's patronizing because you're diminishing other people's success and implanting in them that they're small and foolish when it may not be the case at all.
	Yeah, I can see the difference.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So it's not patronizing to say to kids, great job, the first time they draw a lollipop figure.
	And it's not patronizing to say to kids, I love the way you're talking when they're just making babbling noises because, you know, you usually should be excited and you recognize that there are kids.
	So people, they don't think they are programmed to repeat sounds, that there are magic sounds that get them social resources.
	So Ukraine, Slava Ukrania, right?
	Like I am, I scrappy little Ukraine, whatever.
	Like they just say those mouth noises and then they get social approval, like seals with herring, right?
	Or they say Black Lives Matter, right?
	And they don't really know what it is that they're talking about, but they're just told that this is a good thing to say and they say it.
	And then people applaud them.
	Like, you know, the old joke, how do you give an actor CPR?
	Just applaud.
	And so they're just saying, oh, so if I say these magic words or these magic syllables, then I get social approval and people like me and I get invited places and I guess I get to reproduce.
	And right.
	So, you know, we have this belief in just about every culture that there's incantations or spells, right?
	Which is magic words that get you resources.
	And that's social conformity.
	That's just an analogy for social conformity.
	That if you say these magic words, the patriarchy is bad, you know, safe and effective.
	You know, whatever it is, right?
	Yeah.
	Just mindlessly, refugees welcome, but not in my house, right?
	Just in society somewhere else, right?
	So people have found out very quickly, and we all understand this deeply, that if they make these mouth noises, people like them.
	And they can't evaluate those mouth noises relative to any objective or actual truth.
	They just know that, well, if I say these mouth noises, I get a cookie.
	And if I say these mouth noises, I have to go sit in the naughty chair.
	And all they can evaluate is the rewards and the punishments.
	And that's how society lives.
	That's how most people live.
	And I mean, I don't know if you see them on Twitter when people say silly things, like they'll say, I mean, to take an example, nothing is true, right?
	Now, that is a kid plunking with their elbows and forehead on the piano saying that they've created beautiful music, right?
	It's amusing.
	Yeah.
	It's amusing.
	So then I say, ha ha, are you certain of that statement?
	But that's like a kid.
	Are you sure of that?
	You know, the kid with chocolate all over his face saying, oh, I didn't eat any chocolate.
	Are you sure of that?
	And then you show them the mirror.
	Okay, maybe right.
	So, but you don't have to, they're just making noises.
	Now, I get those noises are dangerous.
	I mean, I'm not saying it's the same morally as some kid because they do get to vote and they can vote for policies that are very disastrous to free thinkers and all that kind of stuff.
	So I get all of that.
	I really do get all of that.
	And so I'm not saying that it's exactly the same as a kid, but socially, oh, yeah, people don't know what they're talking about.
	This is all the way back to Socrates, right?
	They're just the sophists, people who pretend to have knowledge of things they don't understand at all.
	And if you view them as adults who've thought things through and come to crazy conclusions, I think, like, let's say that your kid is babbling and they, through their babbling, they drop an F-bomb, right?
	Yes.
	Would you get mad at the kid?
	No.
	It's just, it's an accidental bad word.
	And you can find these videos occasionally on social media of some kid dropping an F bomb when they're very, very young and either they've repeated it from someone, but they don't understand the word and what it could mean or anything like that.
	And it's funny and it's cute, but you wouldn't get angry at the child, right?
	You might say, ah, you probably don't want to say that, you know, or whatever it is, right?
	So with regards to people socially, I myself, I'm like, yeah, I mean, that's interesting, right?
	That's interesting.
	I might think differently.
	I'm not sure, but it's just interesting, right?
	And I don't owe the truth to people who aren't lying.
	They're not lying.
	So do you think if people aren't receptive to the truth, then there's not much point in some way.
	Well, think of how hard it is to achieve the truth and to maintain the truth.
	It can't be inflicted from outside.
	Like it's really hard to develop an exercise routine and stick with it.
	It's really hard to get a new diet that's better for you and stick to it.
	I mean, I find those things hard, but now, so you have to be really motivated to do it.
	Now, someone yelling at you, you know, your bones are too soft and you could get diabetes in five years, just yelling at you.
	I mean, they might get you to go to the gym once or twice, but it's not internalized, right?
	Yeah.
	So for me, the way to sell truth is through demonstrable happiness.
	Like I'm happily married and I have a great relationship with my daughter.
	I've good friends, a meaningful career, the way that I spend my time.
	It's a good life.
	Now, that to me has the most chance of changing people's lives or minds.
	Not this is an airtight syllogism because people don't base their decisions off syllogisms because syllogisms don't support the necessary myths that society throughout most of its evolution has needed to have any cohesion to not taken over, to not get taken over by another tribe, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So they're not children, obviously, technically, but they are childlike in their thinking.
	And I view people with regards to politics as mentally challenged.
	And if a mentally challenged person says something that's wrong or quote, foolish, we wouldn't get mad at them.
	We may correct them or we may not.
	And especially given your age, most people are past their primary influence.
	Like if someone is, you know, 78, is it worth them trying to run a marathon?
	Well, probably not.
	I mean, they should probably exercise a bit, but I don't know about running a marathon.
	I'm sure occasionally it could work.
	But as a personal, if I were a personal trainer, I probably wouldn't say to some 78-year-old guy who came in who was like out of shape or I'd say, well, if the goal is to get you to run, you know, 26 plus miles without stopping.
	I would say, you know, probably not.
	Maybe if you came in at 40 or maybe even 50, but not pushing 80, right?
	So especially at the age you guys are at, most people have largely detached from society.
	They're not influencers, so to speak.
	And so they're just making sounds to get approval because that's what most of the people do.
	And that's why we survived.
	And some of the stability that people making those mouth noises has generated is one of the reasons why people like you and I can exist and do what we do.
	Like we need that.
	They're not our enemies.
	Although it's a bit of a tougher relationship.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, I mean, it's a really interesting way of looking at it.
	And thank you for that.
	I will look at it in a different way, I think, from now on.
	Another thing I would be interested in, though, your opinion about would be the interface between that NPC world and with circumstances where it might matter more, like with my children or something.
	So an example, perhaps, would be like at the moment, two of my daughters send their young children to daycare.
	And I'm, you know, I've listened to your things about daycare and all that.
	And so I, you know, it's just like it feels as though they should have information and all that.
	But so it's not quite the same in that circumstance.
	Yeah, it's more personal.
	But it's so-called for putting their kids in daycare.
	It's heavily subsidized, isn't it, where you are?
	Oh, it's like massively subsidized.
	Right.
	You know, so they, so you pay taxes for it either way.
	You might as well let.
	Okay.
	So.
	So what are your kids, just roughly, what are their general arguments for putting their kids in daycare?
	Socializing and everyone does it and I want to work and it's good to have the value.
	Well, well, well, one of them, it's a necessity because she's a single parent because her partner was useless and tried to strangle her baby.
	But that's another.
	So she's a thing.
	That's a little more than useless, but okay.
	Yeah.
	So is this one of the from your first marriage?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Wow.
	So she works and supports the child and that's sort of a necessity in a way.
	But couldn't you the one who's well, she was sort of fairly highly trained, a highly trained physicist.
	And so she has a, you know, has a very good job.
	So her welfare would not cover it.
	But, you know, I mean, she possibly could.
	And the other one is just a one-year-old who she's just putting into daycare now, just over one.
	And she's like going back to work.
	And that's on the on the theory of, well, we, we need, you know, they're not on the property ladder.
	And, you know, she's saying, well, we need like two incomes in order to get ourselves into the next rung of our lives and all that.
	And, you know, I have I have argued about, you know, with her about it a little bit, but, you know, it's difficult to know how far to go because I just feel if I if I go in too far and I alienate her too much, then I you lose all influence.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And at the moment I have influence with my grandchildren and I feel I can do it that way.
	I can perhaps, you know, I've got a 15-year-old grandson who I just took away walking for five weeks in the summer.
	We just went walking in Europe for five weeks and it was just like, yeah, that was it.
	I could, we were talking about everything and it was just like, great.
	And at least I'm able to do that in some ways.
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, when it comes to influencing people, you make the case until they get, you get real pushback and then you let it go for a while.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And I don't know whether this is possible.
	But, you know, if you want the kid out of daycare, maybe you and your wife could take care of the kid during the day for a while.
	We are doing that for one or two of the days.
	So it's just the other one or two days.
	So there is an element of that going on.
	Yes.
	And you listen, you have to make your case and then hold your peace.
	Yes.
	And you're right.
	Of course, if you make the case, you know, if you've ever had a really pushy salesman, you generally just want to walk away.
	Whereas if you have a salesman who's like, yeah, take your time, go think about it.
	Then you may in fact come back and buy, right?
	Because then it starts to feel like, well, they're only interested in their own salary or their own commission, not what's best for me, right?
	Yes, yes.
	Yeah.
	So I would say, yeah, definitely, you know, make your case.
	And if you get a lot of pushback, if they start to get really chuffed, is that the chaffed?
	Chuffed?
	Start to get really upset, then yeah, you can just pull back and pull back.
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's, I'm not going to say the truth is a sword to be drawn at all costs because it's no workie that way.
	No.
	I mean, that's been really helpful.
	Thank you very much.
	And there was one thing I wanted to say, not in relation to this at all, actually, just a feedback to you, is that I was listening to you the other day.
	And it came to my mind.
	Sometimes I listen and sometimes it can be a difficult listen.
	And sometimes it's just like amazing.
	And I sometimes think, and I think I've heard you say it occasionally about like Freddie Mercury or something.
	And sometimes it's just, and sometimes you say things in such a way and you elucidate in such a way that it just feels like something of real beauty in that moment to me.
	And, you know, I just want to thank you for that.
	I appreciate that.
	Yeah.
	I do try and crank up the analogies to the point of both glorious and beautiful productivity, but I appreciate that.
	And thank you.
	Great.
	Well, that's really brilliant.
	And thank you for getting back to me today.
	You're welcome.
	I appreciate your patience and your flexibility.
	And I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going.
	I'll do that.
	And thanks very much.
	You're welcome, brother.
	Take care.
	Keep up the good work.
	Will do.
	Bye-bye.

▲