Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - How to Gain Male Authority!

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Oct. 22, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:57:45

How to Gain Male Authority!

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	All right, let's go with the message then.
	So, a backstory.
	My mother was physically and emotionally abusive in my childhood.
	She divorced my alcoholic and abusive father when I was around five or maybe six years old.
	So, most of my pre- and teenage years were marked by massive neglect and occasional beatings.
	We had no bond, no closeness, no love, but still we had moments of sentimentality towards each other.
	And I remained on speaking terms with her up until my first son was born when I had to revisit basically all my life for the sake of his future.
	I defooed from my mother in October 2022 after our emotional and honest two-hour phone call.
	In a way, I was inspired by your calling shows that I discovered around three or maybe four months before that.
	Before that, I introduced her, which my mother, to my wife around three years ago.
	They saw each other in person twice, back when we were dating around 2019, and then when my son was around six months old in January 2022.
	And both times, it was very briefly for a couple of days.
	They both started speaking over the phone when my son was born, and my mother was mostly interested in him.
	Back then, it was a relief for me since I could skip my boring conversations with her.
	Back then, I was bored with her because my anger came gradually later.
	So now my wife is in a difficult situation because her husband, me, fully condemned his mother for her past crimes.
	At the same time, he introduced them to each other when we were still on speaking terms.
	And my wife is not coming from a divorced family or anything like that.
	She had good relationships with both of her parents.
	So my sudden defooing caught her totally off guard.
	My wife cannot condemn my mother in the same way since she didn't do any direct harm to her or our kids or even to me when I was basically an adult.
	At the same time, she's appalled at what my mother did to me as a child.
	My wife even keeps insisting that my mother loved and still loves me, and at the same time, admits that a loving parent will never abuse their child in the same way.
	That's a total contradiction.
	On the other hand, it was I who introduced them to each other and facilitated their connection mainly over the kids' grandkids topic.
	And I feel absolutely terrible for doing this to my wife.
	It's one of my biggest regrets ever.
	At the same time, I'm at least happy that I was able to keep my kids away from my mother and that they don't even know her.
	My wife had several conversations with my mother about all that post-defooing situation, but she does not want to take sides anyway.
	She is torn apart.
	Every time this topic surfaces in our conversations, I get emotional, angry, and stern.
	And my main pain point is not that my mother was abusive and became even worse after being confronted.
	It's that my own wife is on the fence and cannot condemn the person she barely knows who did the most harm to her husband that she claims to love.
	Last time I spoke about it with my wife, it got so heated that she threatened me with separation if I kept this negativity and aggressiveness about the past.
	She thinks that I need therapy.
	Well, I say that no amount of therapy will change my stance on child abusers.
	I will always be angry at them.
	It's like my natural immunity now.
	I fully accept the responsibility for doing this to my wife, but I feel terrible knowing that she won't take my side in this situation.
	In a way, I feel betrayed.
	I know that you, Stefan, care about the children.
	And if philosophy can help me and my kids in this situation, I'd be happy to talk about it with you.
	Have a great day and thanks for all your wonderful work throughout the years.
	So a number of years of a listener, three years.
	And I, yes, I listened to calling shows before.
	No, I appreciate that.
	One of the things I love about philosophy is there's always a new and exciting problem to be solved, or at least to try to solve.
	So I really sympathize with what's going on.
	And let's obviously start with the childhood and tell me what were the sins of your parents.
	So basically, They got together on good old lust, I guess, if you can call it good.
	And my father, by this time, was already two times married and divorced with two kids from previous marriages.
	And this was not like a red flag for my mother for some reason.
	She also knew that he was a drinker, but he was a fun guy, and he was loved by all the women around them.
	So this was one of the key points why they got together.
	She mentioned many times that she married him to spite others.
	Like, I don't know.
	It was that.
	So, but then the obvious thing came in.
	I was just help me understand how, because if it's lust, that's one thing.
	If it's spiting others, that's another.
	And just sort of step me through the details, if you could, about how marrying your father was spiteful towards others.
	Well, she was very good looking.
	She was very good looking.
	So I guess Lust was kind of here.
	And to spite, I mean, she was, it's like she was able to, when he was in demand with all the other women.
	Oh, not to spite, but to win.
	Yeah, kind of like that.
	Okay, sorry.
	I thought spite had to go like vengeful or okay.
	And you're not using the word incorrectly.
	I just took it the other way.
	Okay, so I just wanted to make sure I understood so to triumph over other because your father was good looking or high status or in high demand, right?
	Exactly, yeah.
	Okay, got it.
	So, and then after about a year and a half, two years, I was born.
	And surprise, surprise, every basically all the red flags that was seen before, they just manifested in the same way.
	He was, well, basically abusing alcohol.
	He was physically abusive.
	She mentioned that, I don't remember any of that, but she mentioned that he beat me to the point that, you know, I got bruises that was visible.
	And they were too embarrassed that, you know, people in daycare would notice that.
	And this combined with...
	Thank you.
	Yeah, sure, sure.
	It's a little disconcerting because you have no emotions about any of this.
	No, sure, no, no, I got beaten as a toddler.
	Yeah, sure.
	Yeah, I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	Actually, don't be quite that.
	I'm not saying you got a sob on cue, but being that disconnected, it's a bit disconcerting.
	Yeah, you're right.
	You're absolutely right.
	I'm too nervous now to actually get into this.
	Don't be nervous.
	Don't be nervous.
	It's just a conversation.
	So don't be nervous.
	Well, this is like the first time I'm talking about this to just about anyone, except for my wife.
	And your parents, I suppose, to some degree.
	Yeah, to my parents.
	No, that's not.
	I sympathize.
	And listen, I'm not saying you've got to summon emotions, right?
	And I'm not saying you've got to be choked up.
	I'm not saying that, but just not.
	Yeah, yeah, no, like that, that's like we're discussing a grocery list.
	That's a bit disconcerting.
	Yeah, yeah, you're right.
	You're absolutely right.
	I should be more connected, I guess.
	Sorry, were you beaten with implements or was it just by hand?
	I don't know.
	With my father, I don't know.
	I have just small little glimpses of something.
	I guess it was mostly with no implements.
	The implements will come later with my mother.
	That's okay.
	So sorry, go ahead.
	You were talking about your father's violence, your mother's drinking and so on.
	No, no, my father's drinking.
	Yeah, so finally, my mom, in a way, was fed up with all this.
	Her main pain point was, yeah, that he was actually drinking almost every working day.
	So it's like a drinking culture in my home country where people in the 90s or in this case, 80s, 90s were going, which is blue-collar workers.
	They were just going drinking with their co-workers after every day.
	And he was, you know, coming back after been drinking.
	And so my mom was fed up with this and with obviously all the beatings.
	He also, I think he was also beating her and not only me, to the point that we had to leave the apartment when we were leaving and go to her mother, his mother.
	So it was just chaos like this.
	And yeah, and finally, when I was about to go to school, this is when she basically pulled the plug on this.
	And he was totally against this.
	He wanted, he did not want this because in a way, he's absolutely, he couldn't live without a wife, basically.
	He was basically a guy who wanted to work and all the household duties, child raising, and everything else was basically should have been done by the wife.
	And he was kind of not very independent in this way.
	He couldn't even cook for himself.
	So he was basically going from Sorry, let me just understand.
	So how old were you when your parents split up?
	You said when you were heading to school, so like five or so?
	Five or six, yeah.
	Okay.
	And do you know if there was a, I mean, you're too young, I assume, to remember much of the marriage, but was there a like a final straw or something that happened, or was it just a slow accumulation that you know of?
	I think it was just critical mass.
	I think my mom, she mentioned also a couple of times that after they got married, she wanted basically a divorce after like a couple of days.
	It was that bad right off the bat.
	But then, you know, they just kind of stayed together and it was just from one thing to another.
	And she even claimed to her own, to her older sister, when she when my father, when he proposed to her, she came to her sister, older sister, and she said, like, you know, this guy, he, he proposed, I have, I'm dating another guy and he wants to take me, you know, to the, to the other town, and this guy wants to marry me right away.
	What should I do?
	And she said, well, marry him.
	And she said, I don't love him.
	And she says, I don't love my, you know, my own husband now.
	Like, this is normal.
	They considered this state normal.
	If you don't love, no, no problem.
	Just, you know, get married.
	And yeah, this is this is how it, how it all started, I guess.
	Yeah, so she, she got married and then wanted a divorce.
	She mentioned a couple of times that, you know, I married to divorce and all this.
	Sorry, she married, sorry, she married to divorce.
	I'm not quite sure what yeah, kind of what is something like this.
	She mentioned this a couple of times.
	She felt like she married just to just to divorce.
	All she wanted to get out of.
	Oh, so the divorce was inevitable given who she married.
	Yeah, exactly.
	All she wanted to get out of this is to is to have a child.
	And back then, it was mostly you can only get a kid if you're married from your husband or whatever.
	So did you, sorry, did you have any siblings?
	I guess not.
	No, I'm the only child.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So around five or six, your parents, your mother leaves your father, and then what happens?
	Yeah, so they got divorced and I stayed with my mother.
	Well, sorry, she divorced him, is that right?
	Yeah, exactly, exactly.
	And it was actually legally possible, even though he was against us.
	So I didn't understand that it was legally possible, even though he was against this.
	Yes, exactly.
	Exactly that.
	Okay, so she could divorce him regardless of his objection.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Maybe she presented her case, you know, the abuse and everything.
	And I don't know.
	But in my home country, the divorce was always very easy.
	So the divorce rates are very high.
	So that's because it's very easy to do.
	So what else?
	Well, did you stay with your mother?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Or shared?
	No, no, no, no.
	I think after this, after five or six, up to maybe when I was 17 and I was leaving my mother to go study in the another city, I've seen my father like maybe a couple of times, five or six.
	Oh, so he basically stopped being a practical father for you and just was like who got tossed.
	Okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, he wasn't much of a father even when we were living together because his parenting was mostly treating me like a, I don't know, like a like some kind of grunt or a soldier.
	He was just basically ordered me around.
	This, this, I remember.
	My mother confirmed this.
	Okay.
	And so you stayed with your mother and how were things with your mother?
	It was terrible.
	It was actually pretty terrible.
	But I can only say this now because I was under the impression for many, many years that it was kind of normal.
	You know, if you're, you have like your mother, you're living with her.
	Sometimes you got, you know, physical, emotional, and other kinds of abuses.
	And you still, you know, you're still communicating even after I moved out and everything.
	Yeah.
	So what really bugs me and just angers me like a lot is the fact that she divorced my father because he was abusive in this way.
	And then right after this, maybe like a couple of years after this, she did many of the same things.
	He got divorced.
	He got him divorced off whatever.
	So he beat me.
	Well, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	So she divorced him because he was abusive towards you.
	And her as well.
	Yeah.
	And me.
	Okay, and her.
	That's probably her first, right?
	Because he was abusive to you for years.
	But then I assume he was abusive towards her or was drinking too much to be a good provider or whatever it was, right?
	So she was overly concerned with his abuse towards you.
	Well, yeah, because he basically stayed with him for like eight, sorry, for five, six years.
	Well, and I'm sure she would say that later.
	Later, she said, well, I had to leave him because he was beating you or whatever.
	But that's just, you know, the first casualty of divorce is the truth, right?
	Nobody can tell the truth about anything.
	You know, there's never heard of that.
	I've never seen that.
	It's never going to happen in this or any other universe.
	So, yeah, so the fact that she became abusive is not shocking, sadly, given her character or her nature.
	So I understand the frustration, but I can virtually guarantee you she didn't leave your dad because he was abusing you, but because there were negative things to her.
	Yeah, you're right.
	You're right.
	And but still, it was not, I knew this at the time that, you know, the divorce happened because of this, that, and the other.
	I was still living with her and, you know, got all this abuse.
	And at the same time, it didn't really occur to me, like, if she divorced him on this grounds, why am I still getting all this and neglect on top of this?
	Because I was neglecting because how could I not?
	She should go back to work.
	She was not, you know, working all the time that she was together with him.
	So who took care of you when your mom went back to work?
	That's a good question.
	That's a good question.
	I would say school daycare and her in some way.
	It was.
	Oh, so you went from kindergarten to after school daycare and then you'd get picked up by your mom?
	Yeah, exactly that.
	And after school, exactly.
	Exactly.
	And what did your mom do for a living?
	What did she do?
	She was working in a factory as like a lab technician slash chemists.
	So I'm educated like a professional or a semi-professional.
	Is that right?
	Yes, something like this.
	Semi-professional is a better description.
	Yeah, I just did your father pay child support or alimony or anything like that that you know of?
	I know that he did not for the most part.
	He was obliged to pay something, but his official salary was quite low.
	So he was only obliged to pay basically pennies.
	What did your father do for a living?
	He was and probably still is.
	He's a welder, blue-collar welder.
	It's so funny that he's an expert at joining things together and breaking things apart.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Yeah.
	And one of the things that why he was pretty much absent through my teenage years and everything, he started working like long distance.
	You were doing all this prospecting and goldpinning, something like this, up north.
	Okay.
	And he was doing that kind of thing.
	You were staying a month and then a month at home, month at work like that.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I did three months and three weeks.
	But anyway, okay.
	All right.
	So I've just, it's amazing to me that without child support or alimony, it's your mother could afford an apartment, food, amenities, and daycare.
	Daycare.
	I mean, I know, and maybe in your home country, it's not that much.
	It's heavily, heavily subsidized.
	It's basically, basically, it's a government daycare.
	It was not costing almost anything.
	School is all the responsible parents get taxed to pay for the daycare of the women who choose bad fathers.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	So were you living in an apartment at that time?
	Yeah, exactly.
	My father got this apartment from his work, basically.
	And he just left it to us.
	And well, transferred.
	It's not like that.
	I assume it was rented.
	No, it was not rented.
	He was.
	Oh, so he got an apartment from his work.
	Like they gave him a whole apartment?
	Yeah, in my home country, it was more or less common for just surprised.
	I'm not saying it's just never heard of that, but it was just a perk.
	Exactly, exactly.
	It's basically a studio, very small apartment, like basically one room.
	And we stayed in this one room throughout all my childhood.
	I didn't even have a space.
	And did you have, yeah, you had no separate space if you don't, right?
	Did your mother date at all after she left your father?
	Oh, yeah.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	She did.
	She had like trees of long-term relationships for like maybe five, six to seven years from one guy to another.
	Oh, and did these guys come to your little boxroom apartment store?
	Yeah, but only for like occasional visits.
	She was mostly going to their apartment.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	So you never really had any relationship with these guys, I assume.
	Maybe except for one.
	There was one guy who was particularly nice to me, more or less, although he was also a drinker, but he was not a violent, not a violent guy.
	And I stayed in his apartment for quite a while.
	He was doing, you know, some, he was tinkering with electronics a lot.
	So I was going there to do that as well and to play video games because I couldn't do this in my apartment.
	Okay.
	Yeah, don't often appreciate the value of a good graphics card.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And how when she was out dating, and you said it was pretty soon after the divorce, when she's out dating, who's taking care of you?
	I mean, you're like five or six or seven?
	I don't think she went out dating right after this.
	I think she took some time for a little bit.
	I think she was single for some time.
	I don't remember exactly when the first boyfriend surfaced, but even without the dating and everything, she was still getting together with her friends, her female friends, her, I don't know, co-workers.
	She had a lot of friends from her school, basically.
	Yeah.
	I mean, pretty people often don't even really feel alive unless they're being admired.
	So she's got to go out with her friends so that she can get looks from guys and feel desired.
	And yeah, it's one of the minor curses of being attractive is you tend not to feel like you have much value unless you're being admired.
	It's like a work of art doesn't feel admired in the basement, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Exactly.
	Not only that, all her boyfriends were younger than her.
	So she divorced when she was in her mid-30s, I guess.
	Maybe early 30s, mid-30s.
	And then she only dated guys, especially when she was getting close to 40, mostly guys younger than her.
	Yeah, and then there's this funny flip where then she, but then they have to date guys older than they are when they get into the late 40s, early 50s.
	They go from 10 years younger to 10 to 20 years older sometimes.
	All right.
	Well, not in her case.
	She was always dating younger.
	I still do not understand what did all these guys found in her.
	Oh, come on.
	No, you can't.
	Come on.
	What do you mean?
	I mean, I'm happy to hear your case, but what do you mean you're confused about what the man saw in her?
	I don't know.
	Let's say she's like 35 and there's a younger guy who's like 30.
	I mean, yeah, she looks 30.
	So it's not like she's like an older cougar or anything like that.
	But I mean, the quality of the boyfriends was even lower than my thoughts.
	Hang on.
	Sorry.
	I'm still trying to understand why.
	And obviously there could be a factor I'm missing, but why is it confusing that your mom would provide value to younger men?
	That's a good question.
	Because you said, like, I had no idea what the guy saw in her or whatever.
	And I'm not trying to be picky, but I'm trying to figure out why there's a blind spot in this way.
	I mean, it's a common one, so don't feel bad, but I'm just, what do you mean?
	Yeah, maybe you're right.
	Maybe this is there's, you know, there are perks.
	But well, what, what is it?
	I mean, they didn't love her for the quality of her personality, right?
	They didn't love her for her youth and fertility.
	They didn't love her because they admired her character.
	Of course, as I said, they didn't love her because they wanted to be a wonderful stepfather to you.
	So why did they date her?
	I don't know.
	I guess it would be sexual access.
	Yeah.
	I mean, not just sexual access, but looks and status, right?
	So if she's a good-looking woman.
	That's right.
	Then the men experience higher status by being out in public with her.
	Especially if she looks younger.
	That's right.
	But I mean, there was a lot of women around who were just as good looking and younger.
	I mean, I don't know.
	It's just.
	Well, okay, so let's work through that, right?
	So there were women around who were good looking and younger.
	Well, again, the man in particular cares, if he's not interested in starting a family at that point, which a lot of young men aren't that interested in that, right?
	Then a man is interested in sex, looks, and status.
	Okay.
	And so obviously she offered up sex.
	She was good looking and she improved the man's status and she wasn't pressuring the men to marry and have kids because she was too old.
	Like an older woman is not going to pressure a younger man for marriage and kids.
	She might pressure him for marriage, maybe, but not for kids because she's, you know, kind of past her peak that way, right?
	She's already into geriatric pregnancy land, right?
	Exactly.
	You're just looking for a fun time that's high status with sex.
	How does your mom, I'm sorry to be, you know, so frank about your mom, right?
	But how does your mom not fit that bill?
	No, I think you're absolutely right.
	You're right.
	No, I, no, and she was specifically right after the divorce, she was specifically set basically in her tracks in a way that she said, it was, I only want to have one child, one husband in my life.
	I'm not going to ever, I'm not getting married in my life ever.
	And not only that, she did not even want to live with a man.
	She was just, she had this peculiarity about her.
	She was, I don't know, she was not feeling okay living with a man like constantly, you know, like a husband and wife.
	Yeah, okay, I get it.
	So that's even more attractive for young men, right?
	She wanted to only to live by herself.
	Right.
	So, as I said, that's even more attractive to a young man who's just looking for sex, looks, and status, right?
	Because you can get pulled into some commitment requirement, right?
	And he maybe doesn't feel guilty about wasting a younger woman's fertility if he doesn't want to settle down, right?
	Well, yeah, in this case, you're right.
	You're right.
	Okay.
	So, you said, but you said she had some longer relationships, right?
	Six or seven years?
	Yeah, yeah.
	She was like a serial dater or whatever.
	What's the word for this?
	Serial monogamous.
	Monogamist, yeah.
	Do you know why the relationships ended?
	It's not funny and funny at the same time, but one, two, two guys that I remember who was like seven, both seven years, they died.
	That's why the relationship has ended.
	These are younger guys?
	Well, yeah, I'm not sure about the first one.
	Was he really younger?
	But I think so.
	So the first one has he just died because of, I guess, because of the drinking issue.
	And the second one died because he had an accident in his job.
	He was a construction worker.
	And she had the dark joke about her.
	She said that she's like a black widow because all men that could stay with her for like seven years or more would die somehow because my father got away, she said, because they've been together for a little bit less than seven years.
	Then the guy for seven years, he died.
	Then another one, he died after seven years.
	Yeah, and the other ones was a little less and they didn't die.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm just, yeah, this is all very disconcerting.
	I'm sorry for laughing at this.
	Yeah, it's kind of tough to make jokes about men you're supposed to really care about and love.
	But okay, I mean, I get that's her personality.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So when you were a kid, did you have much access to socializing to like playing with other kids in the apartment building?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	We didn't have any issues with that.
	It was, I think you were talking about your childhood a lot.
	Like it's a free-roaming childhood.
	We had something similar.
	You can always go to the out of your apartment building, and there's always like five, ten kids around to play with.
	And yeah, that's what we do.
	I played a lot out on the streets.
	Well, not on the streets near the apartment building.
	Yeah, I'm a smart guy.
	I know you're not playing on the road.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So did you have any access to any extended family or anything like that?
	Yeah, because we got sent to my grandparents, her grandparents.
	Sorry, her grandparents or your grandparents?
	Sorry, my grandparents, her parents.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah, so it was very customary, especially in my home country, for parents to send their kids through the whole summer or like a month or two or so to their grandparents, especially when they're living apart.
	I always think that's in the country, but where was that?
	It was a very small town, different town.
	And well, when I'm saying I'm from the small town, it's like 100K people, and their town was like 15,000 people, maybe.
	Yeah, very undeveloped.
	I did not like it because I had to stay in the apartment for the most part because every time I tried to go outside to play or even to just walk down the street, I would get harassed.
	I would get sometimes I got robbed.
	You just, you know, sorry, harassed.
	Why do I think gypsies?
	No, what do you mean?
	Exactly, exactly.
	Imagine gypsies, but it's just different nationality.
	So it was just a jungle, basically.
	Yeah, I had a summer once.
	I had a summer when my brother went back to England.
	My mother went to Germany, and I ended up staying with a friend of mine's grandparents.
	I didn't know them.
	And the woman was dying, and it was just this really dour summer of depression.
	And yeah, it's just like, yeah, get out, right?
	Okay, so let's get to the negative things that happened with your mother after the divorce.
	You said that she took over the beatings after a while?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And I still remember some of them.
	And it was, yeah, it was pretty.
	I don't remember anything of my father because I was, I guess, quite young.
	But her, since it was after I was six onwards, until maybe I was about 14, 15.
	This I remember very clearly.
	So I remember and spanking, beating implements, just hands.
	And should I tell you about specific things?
	Whatever is on your mind, it's usually good to share.
	Sometimes we don't know what the sharing is for until later.
	So if it's popping up in your mind, it's usually good to share.
	Okay, so one of the first things that I kind of remember, which was very severe at the time, when I was thinking grade two, so I was about six or seven, seven, maybe even eight.
	I punched my classmate in school.
	And I don't know, in my country, you get a note from the teacher that you did something wrong and it's sent to your parents.
	And it's terrible for kids because normally the parents just take teacher's side and they just the kids basically got in trouble for those notes, for those basically bad grades for the behavior.
	So it was my first time that I got in trouble like this.
	Yeah, I punched my classmate absolutely in a bad manner.
	So it was my fault.
	What were the circumstances, if you remember?
	It was terrible.
	So basically we were waiting for the teacher to come and the class was about to start.
	And everybody, it's customary for the kids to stand up before the teacher when they come into the class.
	And everybody would just, you know, stand up.
	And after the teacher didn't show up, everybody just sat down to their desks.
	And one guy, one guy, like a very silent, very quiet guy.
	And for some reason, he just remained standing.
	And everybody would just tell him, like, hey, hey, hey, sit down, sit down, Pat.
	Sit down.
	Don't worry about it.
	Sit down.
	And I just came up to him and I just punched him.
	And I'm just not punched him.
	I punched him in a groin.
	So it was terrible.
	I still don't remember where.
	And did that because you might get punished collectively if the teacher came in and nobody was standing?
	No, not really, because everybody was sitting.
	And I think I just wanted to, I don't know, show off or just, I don't know, maybe because there was some kind of bullying in me that I wanted to, like, like a crab in a bucket, you know, like, hey, you got to fit in or something like that.
	So it was terrible for me on my side.
	So I did this.
	He just, he bent over.
	He didn't, you know, respond in any way.
	The teacher came in, and there was one girl who told, like, hey, this guy, which meeting me, he punched this guy.
	And the teacher asked, like, is this true?
	Everybody said, yeah, that's true.
	I got the note for the bad grade for the behavior.
	And it was sent to my mom.
	And this is what happened.
	So after my mom found, well, she found out about the situation, she was screaming for like a couple of hours.
	And she beat me for this.
	She was so, it still bothers me to this day, especially when I'm thinking about this now.
	So I punched the guy.
	And because of this, I got punched myself.
	And who's going to punch her?
	That's what I'm still thinking.
	And this is what I asked her later on.
	Like, what's the logic behind this?
	So This was one of the first things that I can remember.
	Does it make sense?
	It does.
	And I'm trying to sort of figure out or sort out why you went for the groin.
	Yeah.
	Why did you go for that?
	That's very dishonorable, right?
	Yeah, but this is what, you know, I think this was kind of normal back then.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Was it a sucker punch?
	Did he know you were coming to hit him?
	I just squared up.
	It was face-to-face.
	It was not a sucker.
	Well, no, but did he know you were going to hit him?
	No, I did not say anything.
	So you sucker-punched him in the balls.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Okay.
	And you said seven or eight?
	Maybe no more than seven or eight.
	Okay.
	So why do you think you did that?
	That's not a fair fight, right?
	No, no.
	And he was very like a quiet, small guy.
	Oh, you picked on the little guy.
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	It's terrible.
	Well, that's, I mean, you've said that a couple of times.
	And I mean, we can do all we want as far as moralizing decades ago, but I'm just more curious.
	The judgment stuff is, I mean, it's, I'm curious what the motivation was.
	I mean, I think I know, but I'm just curious what you think.
	I mean, your thoughts are more important than mine in regards to your behavior.
	I was thinking about this.
	And as I said before, it was either to be like a crab in a bucket, like, hey, you got to fit in.
	What are you doing, bro?
	And the second one.
	No, because no, that doesn't require that you sucker punch someone in the balls.
	Yeah, you're right.
	Maybe you're right.
	And the second one was just, I tried to show off.
	Maybe I just did it in a bad manner.
	Okay, what do you mean by show off?
	Show off.
	Like I can, you know, you know that.
	If you're if you're just if you are capable of violence and you can, you know, make a guy do whatever you want.
	No, but sucker punching a little kid in the balls is not a status thing.
	Exactly.
	But I was, I don't know, maybe it was just done.
	No, you're just being your dad.
	Really?
	Yeah, you're just being your father.
	Okay.
	Well, because your father was sexually successful by punching a little kid.
	Okay.
	Right?
	I mean, your mother, your mother married him and had children with him.
	So we do what our parents do because they are our template for sexual success.
	And our genes say, do what your father does.
	So you were trying to, I assume you had, like most kids who come, and if I'm wrong, tell me, but most kids who come from very chaotic and violent households have sexual thoughts before puberty and significant sexual thoughts before puberty.
	And so you were trying to be attractive to the girls by doing what your father did to you because that attracted your mother.
	Well, yeah, sounds absolutely fair.
	Absolutely fair.
	To be honest with you.
	And this kid couldn't fight back any more than you could fight back with your father.
	I think we were.
	Yeah, I think I was a little bit, you know.
	You said he was a small, quiet boy.
	Exactly, exactly.
	One of them.
	And he certainly can't fight back if you sucker punch him in the balls.
	I wouldn't say that I punched it directly right there, but in this region.
	Yeah.
	In this region.
	All right.
	Do you really want to nitpick about how close you were?
	Sorry.
	I just remember him bent over and just.
	Well, you hit the target.
	Yeah, I guess.
	I guess you're right.
	So humiliating smaller and weaker children, humiliating and attacking smaller and weaker people is sexually desirable to the females.
	So this was, in my view, a mating display for the females to say, I'm like my mother.
	Sorry, I'm like my father who got my mother.
	Can you please explain this?
	Since it happened after the divorce, how can this, but the template is still there.
	Your father reproduced sexually, and our genes tell us to do what works in terms of reproduction.
	And if your father reproduced and made you, then you have to do what your father does in order to reproduce and make another one.
	So you're saying it was mostly, I got a template.
	It was mostly.
	This was a basic display for the females around, which is to say, I'm like my father, who by definition was sexually successful, got to reproduce.
	So if this is what the women like, if this is what the females of my society like, then I'm showing that I'm that.
	Because you would assume that the girls were raised by men similar to your father.
	And therefore, violent and abusive men are what women like.
	So I'm going to show my attractive side by being like my father.
	Yeah, it was very normal back then.
	Right.
	In a way.
	I mean, it was even in the conversations between boys, it was customary to normal to say, hey, you know this guy?
	Can you beat him?
	Yeah, it's like that old joke of like, my dad could beat up your dad.
	The other kid says, really?
	What would that cost me?
	Okay, so yeah, that was bad.
	All right.
	So, I mean, you can say, you know, as you did a couple of times, oh, that's horrible.
	Oh, I was so bad.
	I was so wrong.
	And yeah, I get that.
	I mean, if you'd punched my son in that way, I'd be having some conversations with your parents.
	But just judging it as sort of bad or wrong doesn't get you to understand everything that led to this.
	Yeah, that drove that caused it.
	And the reason I'm saying that is I think I know what's going on with your wife and your mom, but I want to get there to gather information because I don't want to be premature in my explanation if it's wrong, right?
	Okay, so how often would your mother assault you?
	It was very occasional, but it was pretty massive in the way it manifested.
	So maybe because I mostly remember the biggest one, that's why I could say, but it was not like regular, regular.
	It was one of her arguments when I confronted her and I said, why did you beat me in this situation or in this situation or this situation?
	She just pushed back with, oh, I wasn't really beating you like every day.
	What are you talking about?
	So that's her argument.
	So how often would it happen?
	I remember, I don't know, maybe once every couple of months.
	Okay, so a couple of times a year.
	And what about yelling, verbal intimidation, maybe name-calling?
	I don't remember name-calling, but yeah, yelling and intimidation was very, very regular.
	And how often might that happen?
	It was every time you ask this in the calling shows, I'm just baffled.
	I mean, you know, just roughly, it doesn't need to be, you know, a couple of times a year for the sort of savage beatings.
	Was it a couple of times a month or a couple of times a week?
	At least couple of times a month, yeah, I would say.
	A couple of times a month.
	Okay, so maybe three or four times a month for screaming or yelling and then three or four times a year for the beatings.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Yes, I think so.
	Okay.
	And what would happen the rest of the times that your mother disagreed with what you were doing or wanted to change your behavior to change my behavior.
	I think I got into a habit of lying very quickly so I could get away with, you know, most of the things.
	Oh, gosh, you are so self-critical, man.
	Yeah, I am.
	But I'm not, I'm not, in this case, in this case, I'm not condemning myself for lying.
	In this case, I would say I was just surviving the situation.
	Okay, good.
	Yeah, as long as we're on the same page as far as that goes.
	Okay.
	No, no.
	It was totally survival.
	I'm not condemning myself for this.
	Yeah, because if you told the truth to your mother, you might get a beating that could be very dangerous.
	Yeah, that's right.
	That's right.
	So I just try to navigate to lie if I need to, or just not to tell the truth.
	And that was it.
	Yeah, I mean, when you say you got into a habit that sounds like it's voluntary, you know, if you say, I was forced to lie in order to survive, that's a different matter, right?
	It's the language that you use that gave me the moral condemnation side.
	I got into this habit of lying.
	Like I would, you know, there were just cigarettes lying all over town, and I decided to start smoking them of my own volition.
	It's like, no, you're forced to lie in order to survive.
	Okay.
	Yeah, sounds fair.
	Lying was required to live.
	Oh, yeah, at least the price breathing was lying.
	You know, I mean, but I got into this habit of lying.
	Just sounds like it's something like it's a car you were driving or something.
	No, no, it was not like that.
	It was for, you know, for the survival.
	At least not for survival or for just, you know, no, no, no, for survival.
	I'm not kidding about this.
	Because when you get beaten really hard, you never know what's going to happen, right?
	A nail could go into your eyeball, like your mother's nail.
	You might stagger backwards, trip, and bash your head against the edge of a counter or a table in the kitchen, right?
	Like you don't know.
	And you don't know if your mom's just going to suddenly completely lose her shit and just beat you senseless and maybe give you brain damage, right?
	So it is survival because you don't know how far things are going to go.
	All you know is she's five times your size and it seems like completely out of control.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Now in hindsight, you say, well, the odds of that were low, but you can't risk that shit when you're a kid.
	How crazy can she get?
	You can't risk that as a kid.
	A child interprets all violence as a potential death threat.
	Because I mean, throughout human history, it often was.
	And I don't mean a direct death threat, but you know, I mean, accidental, or maybe your parent just doesn't like you and doesn't really feed you much or doesn't take care of you or maybe leaves you behind a little bit or doesn't have you near the fire.
	Like, so it's survival.
	Yes.
	I mean, you could say, well, but she wasn't going to kill me.
	And it's like, but your genes don't know that.
	Well, unconsciously, I was definitely, you know, acting in this way.
	That's for sure.
	Yeah.
	Listen, when I was a little kid and my mom was beating my head against a steel door, I wasn't like, oh, she's, you know, she's going to stop any moment.
	I'm sure I'm fine.
	It was like, no, I went completely limp to signal complete submission because that's what your genes do.
	That's horrible.
	Well, but that's survival.
	And that's so when I say survival, I'm not kidding.
	Our genes don't know about like, I don't know, modern child protective services or legal issues or like our genes are just like, well, if someone five or ten times my size is beating the crap out of me, I'm going to prepare for death and do whatever it takes to survive.
	And I'm not going to cross my fingers and hope that it de-escalates somehow because the odds are, it's not worth the risk, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, it totally makes sense.
	So that was the situation, basically.
	Okay.
	And how did things go when you hit puberty and got bigger?
	Did she magically find self-restraint or what happened with her violence?
	Well, it got a little bit well, it got less and less and less, obviously.
	But again, this is because I started to just avoid it a lot of times because when you're little, you know, it's you're not that smart or just you're just getting in trouble more.
	And when you're when you're growing up, you know how to lie, to not tell the truth or to just avoid the situations that might get you in trouble.
	And yeah, so everything got less and less, but it was still a thing.
	And every time I think about this, I'm thinking like, why I, why I did not fight back?
	She was still, I think, hitting me when I was like 14, 15, and I was already like a big guy.
	I don't know.
	I was like one of you know, one of those there's a story about the elephant.
	I think you even told this that God, you know, when he's when he's little and he just got attached to like a little pull that he cannot get away from and he gets bigger, bigger, bigger, but he just got into like a habit, as I've said, that, you know, she cannot get away from this leash from this little pull.
	So I was just, I was just sorry, are you frustrated with yourself for not fighting back?
	Yes, in a way, I know that you're going to mention that, yes, it's not, as long as I was under her care, I couldn't really do it, do this.
	Because if she, but I'm trying to understand why you're frustrated, if you know that, why are you frustrated?
	It's like saying, well, why on earth didn't I walk three days out of the womb?
	It's like, because you're a baby.
	You can't walk.
	I'm trying to, and I'm, you know, I say this with due sympathy and curiosity.
	I'm trying to figure out why you're frustrated.
	Okay, let's play it out.
	So let's say she's hitting you.
	And what do you mean by fighting back?
	What are you referring to?
	I don't know.
	Just pushing back and just pushing her back against the wall and hitting her in the face.
	Okay, so then she grabs a rolling pin or something and escalates her attack.
	Then what?
	Oh, that's a good question.
	I don't know.
	Maybe I can get something.
	I think I would just run away.
	And this is terrifying.
	Just terrifying.
	Maybe if she's between you and the door, and she's got a rolling pin and she's escalating and she's swinging at you and she might bash your brains in.
	I don't know.
	It sounds scary.
	Okay.
	Just a few times.
	What if you push her?
	She staggers backward, bangs her head against the wall and then calls the police.
	No, this will never happen.
	This never happens.
	Because it never happens in my home country.
	Women never call the police if they're being assaulted.
	By their kids?
	No.
	No, no.
	No, you're not a kid.
	You're 15.
	So, and you're bigger than her, right?
	So you're saying that women never call the police and never complain about assault if they're being attacked.
	I would say it was not very customary.
	How would you know?
	How would I know?
	Maybe you've got a good reason to know.
	Maybe you've got your best friend as a police officer who's told you this, even though that would be limited information.
	But how would you know if women never call the cops on their adult or their almost adult sons who are bigger than them who are quote assaulting them?
	You're right.
	I've had no knowledge of this, but at the same time, I didn't know that it was a thing.
	I've never heard of this.
	Sorry, you didn't know what was a thing.
	That a woman can do this.
	A mother can do this.
	My mother called the cops on me.
	And I'm not trying to say that.
	I'm just saying that that's what happened with me.
	But that's crazy.
	Sorry, why is that crazy?
	Help me understand.
	When women face physical danger, who do they reach for?
	Thank you.
	Or the powers that be, I guess.
	Yeah, they were men, older brothers, fathers, uncles, big friends, the police, right?
	I mean, yeah, this is if this woman, let's say, your mother would be my daughter or my sister.
	Of course, I would want her to call the cops protection, you know, call the neighbors and anything like that.
	I'm just so your mother, your mother, let's say she calls the police, right?
	And the police show up and she shows them the big, what do they call it, the goose egg, right?
	The big lump that might be bleeding on the back of her head where her head hit the wall.
	She shows the dent in the wall and she says, he assaulted me for no reason.
	What would happen in this case?
	Yeah, what then?
	I think, no, because come on, who do the cops go with?
	Who do the cops always believe?
	The crying mother or the surly teenage boy?
	I know.
	You want to say that?
	Don't even try.
	You know the answer to this one.
	I know.
	I know.
	I know where you're getting to.
	Cops, ultimate simp white knights with this kinds of situations almost always.
	Stefan, seriously, if you just knew how many such assaults happen in my childhood with just people around me.
	And if I'm talking about your mother calling the cops, I'm not saying it was 100%.
	I'm not even saying it was 50%.
	But what happens if she says, my son assaulted me for no reason?
	I simply asked him to tidy up a little.
	I asked him to do the dishes.
	I asked him to finish his homework and he just threw me against the wall.
	I'm terrified.
	I'm frightened.
	We could have killed me.
	Right?
	Well, obviously they would believe her, but I think she would be just, she would get scared of the cops in this situation.
	And why?
	Because it was basically unheard of to call the cops in such a situation.
	You hadn't heard of it.
	That doesn't impossible.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	That is right.
	Okay, so what happens then?
	You're a big kid.
	You're almost a young man.
	And your crying mother is saying that you assaulted her just because she asked you to tidy up a little.
	And then what?
	What do the cops do?
	I think we were both just getting our talking to, and that's it.
	Maybe.
	Maybe not.
	Maybe they take you down to the station to talk to you some more and scare you.
	That's a possibility, yes.
	Maybe you get charged as a juvenile and you have to go to Juvie, juvenile detention.
	Yeah, but this would be very bad for her, isn't it?
	No, because nobody would blame her.
	She's the victim.
	She's the mother.
	But I am.
	Listen, I had something similar happen to me.
	I got arrested once when I was exactly like 14, when I was 14.
	Not for assaulting anybody.
	I got arrested for basically breaking glass in the building, very close to our apartment building.
	I did not know that it could get this serious.
	We were just boys being boys in a way.
	Okay, please, please, God, get to the story.
	Yeah, I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	So you got arrested for when you were 14, and then what?
	And then what?
	Yeah.
	And then I got arrested.
	I got detained for, you know, for hours and hours, almost for the whole day.
	And when my mom got and you didn't know what was going to happen.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Because 14 is the age of legal responsibility.
	Right.
	So I won't get into a long story, but a friend of mine was shoplifting and I didn't know it.
	And he got caught and I was called his lookout and we got dragged off to the cop station for the day.
	And yeah, it's pretty alarming, right?
	So super terrifying.
	So you know that you get dragged down to the cop station, to the police station, to the cop shop, and you're even older.
	So you're the age of legal responsibility and you assaulted your mother.
	Yeah, but at the same time, in that story, she was terrified of me being sent to juvenile or whatever.
	She basically, she was super terrified.
	She put her all that she could to get me out of this situation.
	And because it was really bad for her, if I were.
	Right.
	But that's because she wasn't in any physical danger.
	That's correct.
	You broke the window.
	You didn't hit her head against the wall by accident by whatever pushing.
	So listen, I don't know how it would play out.
	Obviously, you know a lot better how it might play out, but you don't know for sure.
	And that's my point.
	Why didn't you fight back?
	Because nobody was on your side.
	And you know that if it push comes to the shove, the cops are going to side with your mother and take you in.
	Okay.
	So that's why you didn't fight back.
	All right.
	And I'm glad you didn't.
	Yeah, me too.
	But I'm sorry.
	None of us fight back because the entire system is rigged against us.
	You know, when my mom called the cops on me, I was like, I don't know, 13 or 14.
	And it wasn't because I was violent.
	It's just basically because I was yelling at her and wouldn't listen.
	And the cops gave me a big lecture.
	Well, we have a generation gap here sometimes, son.
	They didn't talk to her.
	They didn't say what kind of weird ass parenting is going on here.
	They didn't call for any evaluation.
	They didn't ask me what the problems were.
	You know, the fact that she's violent and insane didn't matter.
	I got the lecture.
	And again, obviously, it's different countries, different situations, different circumstances, and so on.
	But it's a possibility, even in your country.
	That's correct.
	That's right.
	And what happens if you get known as the guy who punched or beat up his own mother?
	Well, that's a stain on reputation.
	Oh, are women going to want to date you?
	Really?
	Right.
	I don't think I would.
	So it harms your future, it harms your future dating prospects or your current dating prospects.
	And remember, we're geared to reproduce above all else.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, not only that, I was, if I were to get into that kind of trouble, I could get, you know, separated from her.
	And if I get, you know, somewhere to some kind of separate, yeah, I could get like in a downward spiral.
	Very, very good.
	There are a lot of creepy people hanging around the old, yeah, we'll take them in for a couple of weeks.
	All right, the whole foster care system, I'm sure there's some honorable people in it, but I think we've all seen the data, and we sure as hell have all heard the stories, or at least I have.
	So better the devil you know, right, than the devil you don't.
	So I don't understand why you're like, I don't know why I didn't fight back.
	I mean, yeah, that's right, but I'm still frustrated.
	Yeah, it's just frustrated at what?
	The circumstances, the situation, the cops, your mother, or your poor ass, helpless, 15-year-old self?
	Everything, everything that I was.
	No, no, you were frustrated at yourself.
	At myself?
	Yeah.
	Why didn't I fight back?
	Because you can't win.
	Alone.
	The whole system is rigged so the kids can't win.
	That is totally right.
	Step into that boxing arena with both of my hands tied behind my back.
	Well, because you can't win.
	Right.
	I try not to get engaged in battles where I can't win.
	That's called wisdom.
	And I'm glad you had it.
	Oh, you're right.
	You're right.
	So don't assume that there was something wrong with the decisions you made in a situation of coercion and subjugation.
	Why didn't I fight back against those prison guards?
	Well, because they beat your ass.
	That's why.
	They can luck you in a cage with no food, right?
	Well, seriously, when you've putting this this way, because in my head, it was just like I'm fighting back and she just stops doing that.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But it can get really ugly.
	You're right.
	Well, it can really escalate.
	And here's the other thing, too.
	You're trapped in a tiny box room with someone who's really pissed at you, have shown themselves capable of violence at some point, and you got to sleep sometime.
	Oh, no, just don't tell me this.
	I remember this.
	No, I'm telling you this because it's true.
	This is what my friend's grandmother told me.
	Yeah, yeah, I remember this story.
	Right?
	You got to sleep sometime, kid.
	Oh, no.
	It's just.
	And she did.
	she hit him with a tea tray when he was napping.
	So, Why?
	Why?
	She's already told, she's already shown herself capable of great violence.
	Beatings.
	Why would you want to?
	I mean, why would you want to get involved in a physical altercation system or situation or in perpetuity with somebody you got to sleep right next to?
	Ooh, no, thanks.
	Yeah, you're right.
	You're right.
	Have some respect for your younger self, bro.
	I'm trying to.
	He got you out there alive and unharmed, at least physically, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Which is the best he could do.
	You didn't lose an eye.
	You didn't go to jail.
	You didn't, you know, beat up your mom.
	You didn't, you're right.
	I mean, he got you out of it.
	He navigated that shit almost flawlessly.
	Have some respect, bro.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	That sounds uplifting.
	Thank you.
	Good.
	Good.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So when did you start dating?
	I think it only happened when I actually moved out of my small town because it was absolutely not possible there.
	I feel like I'm in a shell.
	Sorry.
	Bro, I hate to fight with you the whole call, but what the hell do you mean it's not possible?
	Oh, because you were living with your mom?
	I was too ashamed to do that because when you're in a small town and everybody knows each other, I mean, you do one simple, like one small mistake, and then everybody knows about this.
	So I will, and I had no idea how to do that.
	Sorry, no idea how to do what?
	How to date without other people knowing?
	No, no, no, not like this.
	How to do this properly.
	How to do what properly?
	How to date, how to talk to girls and all this stuff.
	Okay, so you didn't know how to talk to girls?
	I didn't know anything about this.
	So I'm trying to get specifics, and then you say something like, I didn't know anything about this.
	Does this mean does that refer to talk to girls?
	Exactly.
	And understand that I was in school the whole time I was there.
	Was very unusual for teenagers to date in my hometown.
	It was very unusual.
	Everybody would mostly focus on studies in this age.
	The people who dated, it was very, very occasional.
	I barely knew anyone who could pull it off.
	It was not like.
	And was that because of religious reasons or other reasons?
	No, it was totally secular.
	I think, I don't know, it was just the age when people would start to do that.
	It was at least when they would go to university at least, or to any kind of.
	Come on.
	Okay.
	How old are you?
	I'm 37 now.
	37 years old.
	Okay.
	Do you remember what it was like 20 years ago when you were a hormone-crazed teenager?
	Yeah, I know.
	I still remember that.
	What happened to everyone's sex?
	Was it just masturbation culture?
	Like, what happened to everyone's sex drive?
	I think, yeah, I think so, but it's a good question, by the way.
	Maybe it was, Chad, we could.
	I mean, that's why God and nature gives us these crazy hormones so that we can overcome the fear of rejection, right?
	Yeah, that's right.
	But I think I just poured all my energies into studies because it was the only.
	No, but everyone did.
	That's my question.
	Like, what happened to everyone's, I mean, how was it all overcome?
	What happened to everyone's sex drive?
	That people are like, yeah, I could wait till my late 20s to date, date even?
	Yes, not to 20s, but I mean, 18.
	I said late teens.
	Sorry, did I say late 20s?
	I meant late teens if I didn't say that.
	Okay, okay, sorry.
	So, yeah, it's 18 and up.
	Yeah, before that, when you're in school, it was very unusual to have people dating.
	Seriously.
	It was like that basically, in my social circle, at least.
	Okay, and just again, I'm sorry to be repetitive, but I'm still not sure why.
	How did some factor overcome raging teenage hormones?
	I'm not sure if I understood the question properly.
	In my case, you've got the, you've got a Geyser and you've got a lid, right?
	A Geyser is this massive eruption, a volcano, right?
	You've got a volcano and you've got a cap on the volcano.
	Now, one of the biggest volcanoes of all is male teenage sexual hormones, right?
	Right.
	So what put a lid on that volcano so that it didn't manifest at least in dating?
	Because you're dying to date girls, you're dying to have sex, you're all that sort of stuff, right?
	I mean, it's funny because it's almost like one day to the next.
	One day, girls are just irritating people who slow down your sports games, and the next thing you just go crazy, and all you can think about is that, right?
	And so I guess my question is: what social factor was it, or what X factor was it, that managed to kill acting on these kinds of drives?
	And I don't necessarily mean sex, but at least dating.
	Yeah, but I think for me, when I remember myself, I was, if I liked a girl that I knew of, it was mostly like it was romantic, I would say, to the to it was not like in any kind of like a flesh sexual kind of thing.
	No, but romantic is romantic as sexual.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	If you're married and you go to your wife and you say, I've developed romantic interest in someone else, would she say that's good or bad?
	I guess it's good.
	Let me try this again.
	You go to your wife and you say, I've developed romantic feelings or a romantic interest in another woman.
	Oh, yeah.
	I didn't understand the question.
	No, it's terrible.
	No, no, no.
	So, whereas if you say, hey, I really like this guy I met, I think we'll be friends.
	She wouldn't be bothered, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So romantic is sexual.
	So if you have romantic interest in a girl, it means you have sexual interest in a girl.
	And I'm not saying romantic is only sexual, but it's based on sexuality.
	Yeah, that's right.
	That's right.
	Okay.
	So you're sexually attracted to a girl.
	And none of this is a criticism.
	This is just pure anthropological curiosity.
	I think it's important, but we'll figure it out as we go.
	So you're sexually attracted to a girl.
	What's the earliest age that you remember that happening?
	I'm not sure if I can say sexually attracted, but I think I first kissed when I was six.
	Okay.
	So six.
	Six to eighteen is a dozen years, right?
	So how is it that your romantic interest in girls?
	And let's just say, let's just say, I don't know, 13 to 18.
	This is half a decade, right?
	So how is it for half a decade, you don't ask a girl that, given that your hormones are screaming at you to start talking to girls and asking them out?
	What's the counterweight?
	What's the counter pressure?
	I was just studying all the time.
	Oh, come on, man.
	Seriously, it was that bad.
	What are you, an entire continent of nerds?
	Exactly.
	Well, I would ask a girl out, but I think I'll study instead.
	No, no, no.
	I was.
	No, that's not it.
	That's not it.
	Why?
	What?
	What is it?
	I don't know.
	It's shame.
	Just fear of rejections.
	No, no, no.
	Fear of rejection is taken care of by the hormones because you're mad with lust and that helps you to overcome your fear of rejection.
	I don't know.
	So all men are everybody.
	It's funny, you know, like every man goes through this phase where they think that they're somehow special because they fear rejection from girls.
	Every man feels fear of rejection from girls.
	Because if you're not being rejected by girls, you're not aiming high enough.
	That's correct.
	Right?
	So fear of being rejected by girls is natural and common to every male.
	So it's not that.
	What is it that kept just about every male from dating in their teens?
	Do you know these stories when, you know, if I remember then, if there was a couple or I don't know, a guy or girl or a guy who would just, you know, make a move or anything just because it was like a small town situation, everybody would be just, you know, making fun of this after this.
	Everybody who makes a move gets made fun of.
	No, that's that was very, very, every guy who makes a move gets made fun of.
	That's also, and that's basic sexual competition, right?
	Because we want to punish guys who make moves because if they make moves, they might get the best women.
	So we want to discourage them from making moves until we're ready or whatever it is, right?
	So every male gets mocked for making moves.
	But people would get mocked like basically from women and from girls and boys.
	Okay.
	Basically, bilaterally.
	Okay.
	And why would that stop you from making moves?
	Because again, you've got these crazy hormones, right?
	When you say I got those crazy hormones, I still cannot really put myself into this category because I was, you know, such a nerd.
	Okay.
	Are you saying that nerds don't feel sexual lust?
	Well, I mean, I did, but not to the point to actually feel.
	Fear of women.
	And?
	How strong were the men in your country?
	How much authority did they have?
	Were they respected as, quote, patriarchs or leaders of the family or anything like that?
	Were they generally respected in your culture?
	It's very patriarchal culture.
	Okay, fantastic.
	I appreciate that.
	And maybe that's a correction to what it is that I'm saying, in which case, of course, I will adjust my theory.
	Okay.
	So if it's a very patriarchal culture, why did your mother divorce your father?
	Maybe it's because it was not like a patriarchal in a way.
	Like you would think about this, like father's rule and, you know, the dad.
	Okay, but if you're using the word patriarchy and then you're saying, well, it's not in the way that you would think it is, then you're kind of screwing with my head.
	Yeah, okay.
	Sorry.
	Okay.
	I want you to go left.
	And you, you know, and then you turn left.
	And I say, well, I didn't mean left in that sense.
	You'd be like, why did you use the word left if you didn't mean it?
	Okay, let's define the patriarchy, I guess.
	Patriarchy is the men get respect and are largely in charge of the majority of important decisions in the household.
	That's more like it, yes.
	Okay, so you're saying that you said that the men drank a lot, right?
	Yeah, it was a lot of drinking.
	Okay, so if the men drank a lot, did the women give them a lot of respect?
	No, absolutely not.
	Right.
	And we don't know which came first.
	Did the men drink because they didn't get respect or did the women not respect them because they drank?
	Doesn't really matter.
	But this is what you saw.
	You saw growing up who was in charge?
	Who was in charge?
	Do I have two options, men or women?
	Yeah.
	Who was in charge?
	Let's just talk about your experience.
	You were given to your mother.
	She was in charge.
	She was in charge.
	Your mother, this is why earlier, this is why earlier you said they split up, and I said, no, your mother divorced your father, right?
	That's correct.
	Right.
	So your mother was in charge of the divorce, and she was in charge of you after the divorce, right?
	Yeah, total custody.
	She dated younger men for the most part, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Even as she got older.
	So she was in charge.
	Right.
	So did you have a lot of female teachers when you were growing up, when you were young?
	I don't mean in high school, like in primary school, sort of grades one to six.
	Yeah, it's a normal situation.
	99% are.
	So I assume a significant majority, if not all, your teachers were female, right?
	Yeah, except for like PE class, maybe the teacher.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, but I mean the majority of your teachers.
	I don't know that PE is really teaching, but you know that also.
	If you can't do teach, if you can't teach, teach gym.
	Okay, so as you were growing up, females were in charge.
	Yes, that's about...
	Did you see, when you watched television, did you see commercials where men were treated with respect?
	you Thank you.
	Were treated with respect.
	Where the woman was kind of foolish and made mistakes, and the man gently set her straight, or even if they were equal, the man was treated with respect?
	Or did you see commercials or movies or television shows where the men were kind of goofy and foolish and the women were always rolling their eyes and wiser and in charge?
	I don't remember anything, you know, in particular to both sides.
	It was not that or the other.
	It could be more in Western Europe and North America.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	Okay, so let me ask you this.
	When you were growing up, who was your male role model that you aspired to become?
	Because he was wise and strong and powerful and treated with respect?
	That's a good question.
	Who was it?
	Who was it?
	I mean, the pause is the answer, right?
	Yeah, you're right.
	I think maybe when I got into, you know, music, it was musicians, you know, guys with guitars and everything.
	No, they may have status, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were patriarchal or treated with respect.
	Yeah, you can say so.
	All right.
	So you did not have an example when you were growing up of a man who was treated with respect and deference.
	Absolutely.
	No, especially in close proximity.
	Sure, but even culturally, that's kind of the norm.
	Yeah, you're right.
	No, because politicians have to defer to women, right?
	And advertisers have to defer to women because women made like 80 plus percent of the household purchasing decisions.
	And women vote more and more often than men.
	So the media, politicians, and commercials and like everything has to just bend to the vanity of women, which means mostly denigrating men.
	Yeah, that's a Western thing.
	That's a Western thing.
	Yes.
	But you experienced it directly.
	Your mother drove your father away and he never came back.
	She drove him away.
	She decided to get rid of him and he never came back.
	Now, there could be good reasons for that.
	You know, not good reasons, but understandable reasons.
	But as a kid, she's all-powerful.
	Yes.
	I mean, she triumphed over your father, who beat you, which means she's stronger than your father.
	Yes, okay.
	And you know why I'm hammering this female authority thing?
	No.
	You are currently paralyzed in a conflict between two females.
	Yes, I am.
	Right?
	And because you can't please both the women, you're paralyzed.
	Yes, okay.
	And because you are asking for respect and your wife is not giving it to you, you're paralyzed because you don't have a template for male authority.
	You only have a template for female supremacy.
	And I'm not blaming you, of course, for that.
	I blame society or culture or whatever, right?
	But you are in a situation where you need respect and authority from your wife.
	Well, at least some kind of sympathy.
	Well, but the sympathy would come from respect and authority.
	Yes.
	Respect and authority.
	And none of this is negative towards you, and it's all solvable, just so you know.
	But that's what's going on.
	Now, help me understand this.
	I know we've got to skip a bit, but we've been talking for quite a while.
	I want to make sure we get to the end of it.
	So why after you separated from your mother in October of 2022?
	Do I remember that right?
	That's right, that's right.
	So how long had you been married by then?
	About three years.
	Okay.
	So you separated from your mother because you had a terrible confrontation, which I'm really sorry about.
	And I just want to throw my sympathy in for all of that.
	So why did she return?
	Why did you bring her back into your life?
	In what way?
	What do you mean by this?
	Well, she's back into your life, your mother, right?
	She was never really out of my life, even at this point.
	I'm sorry if I have this wrong.
	My understanding was that you had a big break with your mother in October of 2022.
	That's right.
	Okay.
	So you had a standard.
	She violated it egregiously.
	And then you stopped seeing her, right?
	We never really saw each other for a long time.
	It was mostly phone calls.
	Okay.
	Do you really want to nitpick at me about whether you saw her physically or not?
	Is that important?
	No, it's not important.
	You're right.
	But what do you mean by okay?
	No, no, no.
	See, the male authority thing is not nitpicking.
	That's that's all.
	All right.
	All right.
	Well, it's one of the certainly one of the major ingredients, right?
	It is a symptom of the week to look for marginal exceptions.
	It's a form of covering bases so you don't get criticized, but male authority doesn't particularly care about criticism.
	So I just want to point out: don't nitpick.
	Don't nitpick.
	All right.
	So October of 2022, you have a big break with your mother and you cut off contact with your mother, if I understand the story correctly.
	Yes, it was mostly, it sounded like I said this, like, hey, we're done or something like that.
	I just, the conversation ended kind of normal.
	I would say, okay, I think I understand what I needed to understand.
	Goodbye.
	And that's it.
	And she, after this, she called me again, like it never happened.
	And I just texted her, like, hey, I, at this point, I'm going to talk about that.
	Bro, I mean, I'm trying to help you out here.
	And you're giving me all of these details that are irrelevant.
	Did you have a big break with your mother in October 2022?
	What do you mean by big break?
	Well, you stopped communicating with her because it wasn't working.
	Yes, yes.
	Okay, so why is this?
	Why are we floundering around here?
	I'm trying to get to the solution here.
	And you're, well, what exactly do you mean by this, that, or the other, right?
	Because you're saying that she's back in my life, but it's kind of hard for me to.
	The whole point is that, sorry.
	Okay, I'm happy to be corrected about this.
	If I have gotten something completely wrong, all right.
	I defood, you wrote to me.
	I defooed from my mother in October 2022.
	Right?
	Defoo, which means to separate from your mother.
	It's like divorce, right?
	Yes.
	It means to remove from your life your family of origin.
	Thank you.
	Okay.
	Do you think I'm going to write it?
	So when you write to me this, do you remember writing this?
	I mean, that's one of the reasons I have people read their actual email.
	No, I actually wrote it this version.
	No, I don't care about versions.
	This is what I read.
	Versions don't mean anything to me because this is what I read.
	You're correct.
	You're correct.
	I think.
	You said I defood from my mother in October 2022 after an emotional and honest two-hour phone call.
	In a way, I was inspired by your call and shows that I discovered around three to four months before doing this, right?
	Yes.
	So you separated from your mother in October of 2022.
	I think it's the situation that you are describing a lot.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	You're describing it.
	You wrote it.
	What?
	I don't understand what the problem.
	What is the problem here?
	I mean, was it incorrect what you wrote?
	Maybe, maybe.
	What do you mean, maybe?
	You're hesitating as if I'm getting something wrong, which if I'm getting something wrong, it's because you gave me the wrong word.
	Yes, I did.
	I think I did.
	So if I said I divorced my wife in October, my divorce with my wife was finalized in October 2022, right?
	Okay.
	And then I said, so you divorced your wife.
	No.
	Why would you think that?
	Does it really sound like this?
	I do food for my mother in October 2022.
	That is separating from your mother.
	It doesn't necessarily mean permanently, blah, blah, blah, right?
	But that is a break with your mother.
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry.
	Why is there this hesitation about what you wrote?
	Because I'm start to second guessing if I really used the right term in this case.
	Maybe I just used this incorrectly in a way.
	Because honestly, in this case, I would just.
	How would I describe this, then?
	We just stopped regular communication like before?
	What is this?
	Separation?
	I don't know.
	I don't know what you mean by regular communication.
	I don't know what you mean by stopped in this circumstance.
	We used to have weekly phone calls with each other.
	Okay, you have weekly phone calls and then you have this big difficult interaction in October of 2022.
	And then what?
	And then this weekly phone call stopped completely and we stopped.
	You stopped them.
	Yeah, I stopped them.
	Okay.
	So you stopped talking to your mother.
	Yes.
	I was going to pause about this.
	I don't understand.
	I'm not trying to catch you on something.
	I'm just trying to understand what you wrote to me.
	Yeah, because I did not block her.
	I still replied to her.
	I don't care.
	I don't care.
	You stopped talking to her.
	Okay, did you text back and forth?
	Was there some other form of communication that is making this muddier?
	I'm just all I'm trying to do.
	I did.
	I did.
	Okay.
	And so what was your texting about?
	After this, she tried to get the situation straight with me.
	So I texted her all the questions again.
	And I think after this, we only texted a little bit back and forth.
	And there was some residual communication after October, but it didn't resolve and it faded out.
	Is that right?
	Absolutely.
	Yeah.
	It faded out completely, almost to the point of just several text messages after this, a year after, and maybe a couple of like this a little bit before.
	So it was mostly her trying to text me and me replying in some way or not replying at all if the message is just insulting.
	You say, hang on, what did you say to your wife?
	And I'm sorry about that.
	I really am.
	And I heard the insulting part, which we'll come back to.
	But what did you say to your wife about your phone call with your mother?
	Well, I just described it what we what we were talking about and everything that she said to me and everything that I said to her as is well, not verbatim, but you know, the basic gist.
	And I don't know.
	So yeah.
	So and how much does your wife know about what you experienced as a child?
	Everything.
	From your mother, like the beatings and all of that, right?
	Well, every major event like this, she knows of.
	Okay.
	So I want to make sure I get things correct here, right?
	So you defeoed from your mother, which was your last significant or voice or mutual communication was in October 2022, but there was a little bit of residual texting, but that's faded out within a year, right?
	Not like within a year.
	So we had this conversation.
	Then she tried to call me again.
	Like nothing happened.
	I rejected this.
	She tried to text me and I responded a little bit.
	And then after a year, she contacted me again through the text saying basically like, hey, let's forget everything.
	And I responded like, okay.
	So the basic gist was that she asked me like, hey, let's forget everything bad.
	Let's remember only the good.
	Forgiveness, blah, blah, blah.
	And I said, like, why wasn't I forgiven?
	Why did you choose me this father?
	Okay, ask me, first answer all these questions if you want to.
	So basically standards, just regular standards.
	And she just retaliated and started even calling names and everything, calling me asshole.
	That was after a year or longer?
	After, yeah, year, no communication.
	And then she tried to maybe to I can't even say make amends, but to kind of she's not calling, she's not making amends if she's calling you an asshole, right?
	But this was after I did not just say like, yeah, yeah, let's forget about everything.
	I did not say that, and she got aggressive.
	Okay.
	So and after this, we only had like a couple of text messages here and there, mostly her texting.
	I'm not saying whether it's right or wrong.
	I just want to understand why are you still in communication with this woman who still calls you an asshole?
	That's a good question.
	I think it's kind of similar to maybe your situations that I'm not, like my door is open, but I'm just not going to let her in with something.
	Sorry.
	Sorry.
	I mean, that was a good attempt at aligning yourself with me, but it's not accurate.
	So my approach is that...
	I don't have people in my life who call me an asshole.
	What do you mean you don't have people in your life?
	I don't text back and forth or try to reason with people if they call me an asshole because that's verbally abusive.
	And that's a shitty way to treat someone.
	You do.
	You'll still text with her.
	You'll still go back and forth with her.
	And that's not a big condemnation, but it's a fact, right?
	You're right.
	It is a fact.
	Okay.
	So it's not the same.
	Nobody calls me an asshole.
	They can fuck off.
	I mean, maybe if they say, oh my gosh, I can't believe I did that.
	That was really rude.
	That was really terrible.
	Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	I'm going to go to therapy or anger management.
	Okay, then maybe, maybe, I don't know, right?
	But that's such a theoretical, it doesn't really matter, right?
	That's a good question.
	Why my door is still open?
	That's what I'm trying to ask because I thought it was closed for the most part.
	I mean, almost exclusively.
	So why is your door still open?
	Do you think I know the answer to this?
	Well, somebody does.
	And it's more likely to be you since it's your life.
	Here's another question.
	Why does your wife allow this?
	Why does she not say, hey, this woman beat you as a kid?
	She was incredibly rude to you as an adult.
	She called you an asshole when you asked her some reasonable questions.
	I don't, why would you have her around?
	Why is your wife not saying, bro, this is terrible?
	What are you doing?
	That's correct.
	And this was my where I wrote my part about feeling betrayed.
	so I also asked this from her like why she did all this No, no, no.
	Okay, what am I not getting?
	Tell me.
	She's following your lead.
	She's following my lead.
	Who's betraying you?
	Who's betraying me?
	Am I betraying myself?
	Do you want to stop?
	Of course.
	Okay.
	I'm betraying you.
	You're having someone in your life who calls you an asshole.
	And you're still communicating with them.
	Is that correct?
	Yes, but I'm not.
	Oh, man.
	I feel the need to nitpick here.
	Like, I'm not really concerned about it.
	No, be honest.
	If that's your preference, go for it.
	Because, again, I could always be wrong.
	So feel free to nitpick.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	My nitpicking was around the fact that I only responded to the actual to something which have some kind of substance, which is not like a girly insult or anything like that.
	This I ignore.
	I don't know what you mean by something that only has some kind of substance.
	The only thing, the only thing, the only thing that you should be responding to is an apology.
	A deep, heartfelt, sincere apology and restitution and a reasonable assurance that it's not going to happen again.
	So basically, I responded to something that looked like that for her, but not for me.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Go for it.
	I don't know what the hell that means.
	I mean, when she texted me like a year after the break, like, hey, you know, let's forget about all the bad things.
	And I only responded to that.
	That's not an apology.
	Of course it's not.
	How is that an apology?
	Yeah.
	How is it to pretend that nothing bad happened and pretend that I never did anything wrong?
	How the fuck is that an apology?
	That's not an apology.
	And do you want to say that?
	No, no, you said you said it sounded like an apology to her.
	I don't know what it really means.
	Well, when the person is kind of like doing evil things all the time, he may see this thing as like a way.
	I think even my wife mentioned this once.
	She said, like, well, maybe she's trying to be apologetic, but she's just doing a bad job.
	You know, when she.
	But you can say that about, you know, you know, somebody stabs you in the throat and said, well, maybe he was trying to give you a tracheotomy, but he's just doing a bad job.
	A thief steals your wallet.
	Well, maybe he was trying to return your wallet.
	He's just doing a bad job.
	That doesn't mean anything.
	You can say that about anything.
	For me, yes, the same thing.
	It doesn't, you know.
	Okay, so now you're taking me after your wife here.
	Okay.
	Why are you having someone in your life who's an unapologetic verbal abuser calling you an asshole and not apologizing for it and not fixing it and not getting help or anything like that?
	Why do you have, and listen, maybe that's a good reason.
	I'm just, but that's my question.
	Why do you have someone in your life who's calling you an asshole and won't apologize for beating you as a child or choosing your father or driving your father away or whatever, whatever your major complaints are?
	I mean, I have some of them.
	I'm sure I don't have all of them.
	Why do you have someone welcome in your life that you're engaging with who has this kind of behavior?
	She's not welcome in my life.
	I'm not really engaging with her.
	That's the thing.
	Okay, so now that's just weasel words.
	Do you engage with her?
	Do you respond to her?
	Do you text with her?
	Again, the last time I did it was October 2023, basically, when I responded to this thing when she said, let's forget about everything.
	After this.
	So that was the last time that you had any interactions with your mother was October 2023.
	I also texted her once when I found out that she was sending.
	Okay, go on.
	I found out that she was sending money to my wife so she could buy stuff for my kids.
	And I texted her, stop doing this.
	I don't like it.
	And that's it.
	Why did you text your mother with this?
	And I'm not saying you're wrong.
	I'm just kind of curious.
	I wanted her to stop this.
	But why don't you just ask your wife to send the money back?
	I did.
	And she did.
	So that was solved.
	That was not solved.
	She didn't send this back.
	Your wife didn't send the money back?
	No.
	No, she didn't.
	Why not?
	She said because, oh, you know, it's not for it's not for me.
	It's just for kids and all this stuff.
	And I was putting this with this up for, you know, quite some time.
	Okay.
	So I appreciate that update.
	So October 2023 was the last time you had any interaction with your mother.
	And do you consider yourself, since you considered yourself not defooed in October 2022, do you consider yourself defooed in October 2023?
	Well, she's not welcome.
	I'm not.
	You have no interactions with her.
	You don't contact her and you're not trying to fix the relationship.
	You're accepting the way she is.
	And you have no plans to initiate any particular contact.
	Yeah, that describes it quite well.
	But at the same time.
	So can we hang on?
	I just, because I don't want to get tripped up on this language forever and ever.
	Amen.
	Are you defooed as of October 2023 since you didn't, since you told me you were defooed in October 2022?
	And that's fine.
	If you want to extend it by a year, this is not a court of law.
	You can change whatever you want, right?
	So do we just say then you're defooed as of October 2023?
	Yeah, we can say so.
	Okay.
	No, not can we say so.
	Is it true?
	You know what?
	I really need to see my history with this.
	Let me have a look.
	Okay.
	October 2023 yes it was the last time and And then the only time when I initiated was when I said, yeah, stop sending money a year later.
	Got it.
	All right.
	So you're defooed of October 2023, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, good.
	All right.
	So you said before that I introduced her to my wife around three years ago, but because we moved to D-Foo a year later, we got four years ago, right?
	Four years before.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	They saw each other in person twice back when we were dating around 2019.
	And when my son was around six months old in January 2022, both times very briefly to two to four days.
	They both started speaking over the phone when my son was born, and my mother was mostly interested in him.
	Back then, it was a relief for me to, since I could skip my boring conversations with her, back then I was bored with her.
	My anger came gradually later.
	Okay.
	Now you said, now my wife is in a difficult situation.
	Her husband fully condemned his mother for her past crimes, but at the same time, he introduced them to each other when we were still on speaking terms.
	My wife is not coming from a divorced family good relationship with her parents.
	Sudden defooing caught her off guard.
	Okay.
	Was it a sudden defooing?
	Had you not expressed to your wife that you had problems with your mother and you were going to try and talk to your mother about those problems and so on?
	It's not a criticism.
	I'm just curious.
	The sudden part was mostly related to cutting contact, this regular phone calling.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	All right.
	So you hadn't talked to your wife about the stuff you'd been listening to in my show.
	Is that right?
	That this sort of family separation thing is an option if the abuse is not diminishing.
	Yes, we were talking about this a lot.
	That's why I'm not sure.
	So hang on.
	If you were talking about it a lot and she knew that you were going to confront your mother, how is it a sudden thing for you?
	And I'm sorry if I'm Trying to follow.
	Oh, before this.
	Referring to what?
	If you're talking prior to this phone call in October 2022, then before this, we were not really discussing much about this.
	All the discussions came later when I did this.
	Okay, so you were listening to me learning for a couple of years, learning about the DFU stuff.
	You knew you were going to confront your...
	Go ahead.
	Not really for like three, four months to say.
	Okay, so for three more, four months, you were listening to me about the DFU stuff.
	You decided to have a confrontation with your mother.
	And was it your thought when you had the confrontation with your mother that if she escalated or continued to be abusive, that separation from your mother or a D-foo was on the tape?
	Was it was a possibility?
	It was not like it was a possibility.
	It was just something that I would be happy for.
	Okay, so a probability.
	A high probability, of course.
	High probability.
	Okay, so you went into, and again, I'm not trying to cross-examine you in any way.
	I'm just trying to understand.
	So you went into the conversation with your mother knowing that a DFU was a likely outcome and might in fact be a preferred outcome.
	For me, yeah, absolutely.
	Okay, of course it's for you.
	And your wife didn't know about any of this.
	No, I did not tell her like, hey, I'm going to have this conversation.
	It just, we had like a regular phone call and it just went internally.
	Okay.
	So why did your wife, and again, it's not a big criticism.
	I'm just trying to understand.
	Why did your wife not know about this?
	Because I was not really planning for this.
	It was just, it just happened spontaneously.
	No, this is not true.
	If you've been listening to DFU stuff and you decide to have a confrontation with your mother, you know that there's a risk it's going to go badly, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so why wouldn't you talk about that with your wife ahead of time?
	I've been listening to this thing about maybe not seeing parents.
	I'm really not enjoying my conversations with my parents, with my mother, and I'm going to confront her, but it might go badly and I might end up separating from her.
	Why wouldn't she know that?
	Oh, that's a good question.
	Oh, good.
	I'm glad we finally got to the good part of the question.
	I'm thrilled because I felt it was a good question.
	But go ahead.
	No, no.
	No, seriously.
	You're doing fine.
	I mean, just it's me who are a little bit confused here.
	Why did it not talk to your wife about what was going on with her mother-in-law?
	Why?
	It's a good question.
	I cannot say that I don't know because I feel like I do know.
	watch this well let me ask you this What do you think your wife would have said if you'd said, I'm going to sit down with my mother and there's going to be this confrontation and I might end up not seeing her for a while?
	What would your wife have said?
	I think she would try to talk me out of this.
	Okay.
	And so that's why you didn't tell her.
	Yeah, and this is what I'm thinking, at least on the surface.
	Okay.
	And again, it's not a criticism, but what would she have said, right?
	Okay, so you play your wife.
	I'll play you.
	Okay, let's just do a little role play here so I can understand this.
	Is that all right?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Honey, I've been listening to this guy up in Canada, and he says you don't have to be in abusive relationships, even if it's parents.
	And, you know, you know, my mother beat me, you know, black and blue when I was a kid and screamed at me.
	And, you know, it was just pretty terrible all around and so on.
	And, you know, I don't enjoy interacting with her.
	It's negative for me.
	And I think especially if we're married to you, you're wonderful.
	She's very different.
	You're going to be a much better mother.
	I'm really highlighting for me, blah, blah, blah.
	So I'm going to have a confrontation with my mother, but I just want to want to tell you ahead of time that if it goes badly, if my mother continues to be abusive, I might take a break from the relationship with her.
	Why?
	What kind of guy did, you know, on the internet tell you this?
	What is this?
	Sorry, what do you think he told me?
	To separate from your family.
	Sorry.
	What do you mean by this?
	Sorry, sorry.
	What did I just say, though?
	That's not what I said.
	Oh, cold.
	Okay.
	And what did you say?
	But you were just here.
	What do you mean?
	What did I say?
	You were just here.
	I was just talking.
	It's literally 10 seconds later and you don't know what I said?
	Okay.
	Well.
	Pretty rude, isn't it?
	And then you just make something up?
	That's really rude.
	With all due respect, I love you to death, but that's really telling you something really personal and important to me, and you're not even listening.
	Okay, I'll tell you what.
	Why don't we take a break from this conversation and let's figure out a time when you're actually able to listen rather than just look at me and pretend that we're listening?
	Why don't we take a break and then you can tell me when you're actually going to be listening?
	I mean, unless you want to do that now.
	I would rather not have this conversation ever because I'm tired, because this, that, and the other.
	What are you talking about?
	Sorry, you don't know what I'm talking about?
	I just told you what I'm talking about.
	Yes, I understand what you're talking about in terms of the meaning.
	Okay, so if you understand what I'm talking about, why would you say to me, what are you talking about?
	What is this?
	Sorry, you're not answering my question.
	If you know what I'm talking about, why would you ask me what I'm talking about?
	You understand that's kind of confusing, right?
	Well, yes, it's confusing.
	Okay, so maybe try not to be so confusing, right?
	Because it's kind of hard to communicate if you're being really confusing and contradicting yourself from one five-second time slice to the next, right?
	Okay, so let's start again.
	What did you get out of what I said about my mother?
	Do you want to separate from her?
	Sorry, are you asking me or telling me?
	It's a question.
	Okay.
	So if I just told you, if I just told you what I was thinking, I'm not sure why you'd need to guess.
	Like if you say to me, we're going to dinner at Luigi's tomorrow night, and I say, okay, and then I say, so we're going to set fire to a pizza hut tomorrow?
	You'd be kind of annoyed, right?
	Yeah.
	Yes, you're right.
	So you're trying to draw me into a life of crime here by burning down a pizza hut?
	It's like, no, that's not what I said.
	I said, we're going to go for dinner at Luigi's tomorrow.
	Where did you get that thing from?
	Right?
	That would be annoying, right?
	Okay, so you're saying you're just going to have a conversation that might lead to that.
	Okay, fantastic.
	So you kind of were listening.
	So I appreciate that.
	So, yes.
	Okay.
	So I'm going to have a conversation with my mother.
	Why?
	Because you want to talk about your childhood again.
	And.
	Sorry, what do you mean by again?
	Have I had a lot of conversations with my mother about my childhood?
	Yes, you did.
	I think.
	I think so.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, okay.
	So I want to talk with my mother about my childhood.
	Okay.
	And why do I want to talk to my mother about my childhood?
	because you are not happy about it and because- Is it because I'm just not happy?
	Like, like somebody brought me the wrong food at a restaurant and I'm just sending it back?
	What do you mean?
	I'm just not happy.
	Did my mother do things that were wrong as a mother?
	Yes, she did.
	Okay, so it's not just that I'm not happy, right?
	What do you think my complaints are?
	I mean, I've mentioned them, obviously, or more than mentioned them over the years.
	What are my major complaints regarding my mother?
	That she was abusive, she was neglectful, and yeah, that's about it.
	Okay.
	And what do you think are the pluses for me in my relationship with my mother?
	What are the things that make me happy and satisfied and enjoying my contact or my relationships with my mother?
	I don't know.
	It's a good question.
	You tell me?
	Maybe?
	Well, nothing, really.
	I mean, I don't look forward to talking to her.
	I find the conversations very boring.
	And I kind of dissociate, like I'm not present in the conversation.
	And so it's mostly negative.
	And I want to try and find something positive in my relationship with my mother, right?
	Does that make sense to you?
	But do you really?
	But do you really want to find something positive or you just want to get your revenge on her for all that she did to you?
	Sorry, if I wanted to get my revenge on my mother, I'd hire criminals to beat her senseless as she did to me.
	She beat me senseless.
	So I'm not sure what you mean by revenge.
	Well, revenge that is.
	I'd go to the godfather, you know.
	That is not to do him a favor in return for somebody beating up my mom, right?
	So I'm not sure what you mean by revenge.
	Well, it's easy.
	You're staying in the boundaries of the law, but you're just kicking her out of her life when she's old.
	I'm sorry, kicking her out of, do you mean my life?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, okay, so you, I just want to make sure I understand.
	So you think that I'm setting a trap for my mom that she can't win so that I can kick her out of my life.
	Well, yes, because you're giving her all this, everything that you're saying.
	Yeah, it's obvious she was abusive and all that stuff.
	Yeah, that's right.
	You're right about it.
	She cannot win this argument against you.
	Well, she can take responsibility and apologize, maybe go to therapy, get some anger management, something, right?
	Yeah, but she kind of apologized already.
	No, she hasn't apologized.
	She apologized in her conversation with me.
	No.
	Okay.
	Okay, honey.
	Love of my life.
	Which one of us is the expert on whether my mother has apologized?
	You or me?
	Is the wronged party not the expert on when the apology is satisfactory?
	She didn't beat you.
	She didn't scream at you.
	She didn't drive your father away.
	Well, she did it, and whether you like it or not, she did.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what you're saying.
	Well, she.
	Are you saying that my mother did what she did?
	That's your big stellar contribution to this conversation to remind me that my mother did what she did.
	That's not very helpful, honey.
	Come on.
	No, I mean, you need to up your game just a little bit.
	No, wait, wait a second.
	Wait a second.
	She mentioned that she feels sorry about this when we were talking about this.
	And she, yeah, she feels sorry.
	She's changed.
	Yeah, because she cannot really change herself at this point.
	Okay, so hang on, hang on.
	So you're saying that my mother can't change, right?
	Yes, yes, absolutely.
	Okay, I appreciate that.
	I think she might be able to.
	I'm willing to give it a shot because I want to give her, you know, every chance.
	So let me ask you this.
	I mean, we have our lovely child, right?
	Sorry, it's a little boy or little girl.
	We have a boy and a girl.
	A boy and a girl.
	Sorry.
	Okay, so we have our lovely children.
	Now, let's say that my mother babysits.
	By this moment, we only have one child.
	Yes.
	The girl came later.
	Okay.
	So we have our little boy.
	And let's say that my mother is babysitting.
	And let's say that my mother did to our little boy or does to our little boy what she did to me.
	He would never do that.
	No, no.
	Hang on.
	Just let me finish.
	It's kind of rude to interrupt.
	Okay.
	So my mother does to our boy what she did to me as a boy.
	Would she be welcome to babysit again?
	No.
	Ah, okay.
	Okay.
	So would we ever leave her alone with our son again?
	No.
	Okay.
	We won't.
	So if my mother does to our son what she did to me, she would not be welcome as a grandmother in the home.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So you have no problem detaching from my mother if your son gets abused.
	But the fact that even once, but the fact that I was abused multiple times, I should continue the relationship.
	So you'll cut her off if she abuses your child once, but the fact that she abused me a hundred times means I should somehow continue like no problem.
	Yes, but understand, it was in the past.
	You're a big guy now.
	She will never do that.
	She abuses our son.
	That also was in the past.
	We come home at nine o'clock.
	She abused our son at six o'clock.
	That's also in the past.
	Mention anything about it being in the past when she abused her son.
	So don't pull that on me.
	You know, all about it's in the past.
	And let's find it in the moment.
	Okay, okay.
	It's a long, long, long, long, long time ago.
	Right.
	That's what I'm trying to say.
	It's had a long, long, long, long time to change, apologize, and improve.
	So that doesn't help your case.
	OK.
	OK, where are we going with this?
	Okay, so why is why is our son worthy of protection, but I'm not because you're not a little boy anymore.
	Correct.
	I'm not a little boy.
	So I have independence.
	I have adulthood.
	I'm not dependent upon my mother anymore.
	So our son would also be helpless as a little boy, but he would depend upon our adult judgment to protect him.
	Is that fair to say?
	Absolutely, yes.
	Right.
	Now, my mother was verbally abusive, as you know, right?
	She yelled and screamed at me.
	And I don't like that.
	Do you think that, let's say that a friend of yours called you a bitch and an asshole?
	Would you expect me to be friends with someone like that?
	No, not really.
	Sorry, what do you mean by not really?
	You mean somewhat?
	Because I don't have people like that in my life who would do that.
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	You just closed the case for me.
	You don't have people in your life who call you bitch an asshole, right?
	But I mean, it never happens to me.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I just want confirmation of that because that's what you just said.
	I want to race off on some other topic.
	You don't have people in your life who call you bitch an asshole, correct?
	Let me think about it.
	Okay, let me think about it.
	That's what you just said.
	What's there to think about?
	You've just told me that.
	Well, this is what just comes to mind.
	Okay, that's good.
	So you wouldn't want me to be friends with someone who called you a bitch or an asshole, right?
	Or both?
	Yes, but friends are different.
	Parents is.
	Yeah, parents are parents.
	This is your mother.
	So your big contribution to the conversation is to tell me that parents are parents.
	But this is different.
	She raised you.
	Okay.
	Do you think that I don't know that she raised me?
	Do you think, I mean, I have literally been referring to her as my mother.
	Yeah, but you.
	Why do you think I don't know that she raised me?
	I think you don't know this because you are trying to pull off this.
	You think I don't know that my mother raised me.
	Come on.
	No, I know.
	Come on.
	I know this.
	No, I can't let you say these ridiculous things.
	Sorry, honey.
	Like, I just can't.
	I mean, if there's something bothering you about what I'm saying, then you can tell me that.
	But don't insult my intelligence and your intelligence.
	Actually, don't even insult your intelligence by telling me that I'm not aware that the woman I call mother raised me.
	Come on.
	Like, let's not go down that road.
	That's ridiculous.
	Okay.
	So you don't have people in your life who verbally abuse you, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And listen, I'm very.
	I would not want that, at least.
	Yeah.
	So I'm certainly thrilled that your parents didn't do that to you.
	And of course, I envy you.
	And I think that's great.
	So I will tell you my standards with regards to my mother.
	If I tell her the things that she did that was wrong, if she calls me names, like selfish, stupid, asshole, or something like that, right?
	Then I don't want her in my life.
	Because I don't want to have someone in my life that if I'm honest with them and not abusing them, that they abuse me and call me names.
	Okay.
	If my mother, let's say my mother calls me an asshole, why would I want someone in my life who calls me an asshole when I'm just being honest about my experiences of them?
	Okay, fair enough.
	Good.
	So I think we're in agreement then.
	So then I go and talk to my mother.
	I tell her the issues that I have.
	And if she verbally abuses me, then you're fine with me taking a break.
	Yes, I guess you can do that.
	Good, fantastic.
	So what's with all the confusion?
	I mean, we're on the same page here, right?
	By we, you mean you and I?
	Or I don't know what my mom's going to do.
	I mean, I have a suspicion, but I don't know for sure.
	If I knew for sure, I wouldn't have the conversation, right?
	So I don't know what my mom's going to do, but we're both in agreement that if she calls me pretty terrible names, that I'm fine to take a break from her.
	Okay.
	All right.
	In the same way that, look, if some family member were to call you a see you next Tuesday or a bitch or an asshole, and I'm sorry to even use these words in your vicinity, I apologize.
	But if somebody were to call you that, I wouldn't want you spending time with them because that's kind of a crazy, mean person, isn't it?
	Or a bully.
	Yeah, but yeah, but a person could say this, you know, just in a heat of the moment.
	He didn't really mean it or she or they or no, that's now you're just lying to me.
	And this is really, really pissing me off.
	Now you're just straight up lying to me.
	How's that lying?
	You're lying.
	Okay.
	If you said to me, you would not have someone like that in your life.
	And now you're saying, well, in the heat of the moment, if they didn't, that's not what you said.
	And you're not even acknowledging that you're changing the entire equation here.
	This is manipulative as hell.
	You know what?
	You're right.
	I think, yeah, I was a little bit too quick to jump on a thing that, you know, I wouldn't have this in my life or whatever.
	Yeah, you know what?
	Yes.
	If it's the heat of the moment, if the person is just emotional or like that, maybe, yeah, maybe.
	Okay, so if they made a mistake in calling you a bad name, right?
	Yes.
	Then what would they have to do to fix it?
	If someone called you a bitch or an asshole or something like that, how would they fix it?
	No, it depends on the person in the situation.
	No, it doesn't.
	No, don't get all relativistic, Audrey.
	Come on.
	How would somebody fix it if they called you a horrible name?
	You want to say that you got to get an apology?
	I don't know.
	What is your standard for somebody who's done you a terrible wrong to fix it?
	Well, if it's some kind of friend or whatever, then yeah, apology would be good.
	But I wouldn't expect anything like this from my parents.
	Right.
	You've never experienced anything like this from your parents.
	I have.
	So how dare you tell me how to handle something you've never even had to face?
	Do I tell you how to deal with your period?
	Do I tell you how to deal with the pain of childbirth or cramps?
	I don't experience those things.
	So I shut up and listen when you're having difficulties.
	I don't give you, oh, well, here's what you need to do with your period pain.
	Here's how you need to psychologically handle the pain of childbirth.
	Wouldn't you just kind of laugh at me?
	How dare you tell me how to handle an abusive mother when your mother is nice?
	If you had a friend, let's say I had a friend who was female, who'd been sexually assaulted, would I lecture her on how to deal with that and what relationships she should have or whether she should forgive someone who sexually assaulted her?
	Dare to tell her how to handle it?
	Your mother's nice.
	I love that about your family.
	I love it.
	I think it's great.
	But you could stand to have a little more curiosity and a little bit less lecturing me on something you've never even experienced, honey.
	I've never been to war.
	I don't lecture people who've been to war on how they should think and feel about it.
	I just listen because I don't know.
	I don't lecture people on things I've never experienced and don't understand.
	Do you see what I'm saying?
	Okay, yes, I'm listening.
	So if somebody calls you a bitch or an asshole, or both, then they owe you an apology, right?
	Because if you are a bitch or an asshole, but you're not, but if you are, then they shouldn't be friends with you.
	And if you're not a bitch and an asshole and they call you a bitch and an asshole, they're just being a bully and mean and trying to break you by being verbally abusive, right?
	So they owe you an apology because they're wrong.
	And the fact that they owe you an apology is so that they understand that what they did was wrong.
	And listen, when our son gets older, guess what?
	He's going to push some kid and take their toy, right?
	And we're going to say, give the toy back and say you're sorry.
	Can you imagine doing that as a parent?
	Yes, absolutely.
	Okay, so a three-year-old has to apologize for a wrongdoing, right?
	No, I don't just mean mouth the words.
	We sort of have to explain to him why it's important, right?
	Yes, okay.
	Okay.
	If I do something that hurts you, do you expect an apology from me?
	If you were wrong, yes.
	Well, yes, if I'm wrong, and if I say something mean to you or I do something mean to you, I don't just mean like accidental, even though even with an accident, I say I'm sorry.
	That's why I'm so sorry I didn't mean to.
	That was a total accident, but I'll be more careful in the future, whatever, right?
	The reason we want apologies is so that we can begin to trust that the behavior is not going to happen again, because people who refuse to apologize are planning on doing the same thing again.
	Or even if they're not planning, they'll let themselves.
	So let's establish this.
	If you say, well, in the heat of the moment, somebody might call you an asshole or a bitch, but obviously they feel bad about it, right?
	Because they recognize it's unfair and they don't want to do that, right?
	Well, yeah.
	And so the way they communicate that is through an apology, right?
	Okay, yes.
	Can we agree?
	We would want a three-year-old to apologize.
	You'd want me to apologize.
	And parents aren't magically immune from moral requirements, are they?
	I cannot agree with that.
	Okay, fantastic.
	So parents can murder at will and can never be charged with a crime because they're immune from moral requirements.
	Wait a second.
	Why are you going to this extreme now?
	No, no.
	You said parents are, you can't agree that parents are not immune to moral requirements.
	So you're saying parents are immune to moral requirements?
	I'm just curious what moral requirements you're talking about.
	I assume, of course, you're not saying that parents can murder at will.
	No, this, no.
	Okay.
	Can parents steal at will?
	No, okay.
	Can they assault people at will?
	I think no.
	Oh.
	Fantastic.
	So if they assault someone, then they would be criminally liable and should go to jail, right?
	Just as if they assault, like if they go and assault someone in a restaurant or, you know, whatever, right?
	So they're not immune from those moral requirements, right?
	But why are we going legal if we're talking about morality?
	Well, do you not think that the law has anything to do with morality?
	Well, yes.
	Okay, good.
	So, okay.
	So parents are liable for assault, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Does it really matter how long ago the assault occurred?
	Would they still be, maybe not legally, statuted limitations, would they be morally in the wrong if they assaulted someone, say, five years ago?
	Yes.
	Ten years ago.
	Yes, 10 years ago.
	20 years ago.
	20 years ago, I don't know.
	Seems like a long time.
	No, no, I didn't say would we charge them because eyewitness is all gone and all that, right?
	But would they be morally in the wrong for assaulting someone 20 years ago?
	Still to this day?
	Would they be morally in the wrong for assaulting someone 20 years ago?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay, because that's what happened to me, right?
	My mother assaulted me repeatedly 20 years ago.
	Is this like a first degree?
	What are we doing?
	Yes, yes, no, yes.
	Okay, yeah, notice that whenever you lose the argument, you just change the subject, right?
	You said parents are morally responsible and liable for assault that happened 20 years ago.
	My mother assaulted me repeatedly 20 plus years ago.
	Okay.
	If, let's say, somebody calls our son a little prick and an asshole to his face, right?
	Yes.
	How can that person be in the wrong?
	Well, if our son didn't do anything wrong, I guess.
	Sorry, are you saying that there's something our son could do wrong that would justify somebody calling him a little prick and an asshole to his face?
	Well, maybe.
	Maybe.
	Wow.
	Okay.
	Well, we'll have to have another conversation about that another time because I think, okay, what about if he's under 10 years old?
	And under 10 years old.
	What if he do, yeah, something really bad?
	Like what?
	I cannot even think about this.
	I just, it's something bad.
	So let's say that we hire a babysitter and the babysitter screams at her son at the top of her lungs and terrifies him.
	She screams at him for like two hours and he's shaking, he's wet himself, he's terrified.
	Would that be something that would be bad?
	From coming from babysitter?
	Yeah.
	That's horrible.
	It is, I agree.
	What if it was a teacher?
	Okay, God, that's horrible.
	Okay, what if so?
	A caregiver who has authority over a child should not be screaming at that child for two hours straight, right?
	Where are you going with this?
	No, no, she's been asking you questions.
	I'm answering questions.
	Okay, yes, yes, yes.
	Okay, good.
	That's not.
	You know, my mother did that to me, right?
	Yes, yes, she did that to you.
	You remember after I punched the boy?
	Okay.
	Okay, and she's never apologized for it.
	She's never even admitted that there was a problem.
	No, she didn't.
	Okay.
	So is it unfair for me, especially because I'm a provider and protector for this family, right?
	My major issue is, of course, it's twofold.
	One, I don't want her around my son.
	Number two, I don't want her to exercise dominance over me in a negative way because I need to have authority with my son.
	I don't want my son to listen to me being berated by my mother or being even bored by my mother because then it's like, why is daddy talking to someone who's boring?
	Well, she must have power or authority over him.
	I need to assert my authority in my family in a positive and healthy way so I can't be bossed around by an older woman.
	You understand?
	I mean, I'm not saying you'd understand that because it's a bit of a male thing, but you can understand it, why it might be important to me, right?
	Yes, you told me this a lot of times already.
	I still don't understand.
	I'm sorry, go ahead.
	I just still don't understand how's this going to affect you negatively, this whole thing.
	She's just your mother.
	And it happened a long time ago, and she might do a bad thing.
	Hang on, hang on.
	But I still can't be honest with her about anything.
	But you are about to get really honest.
	What are you talking about?
	Right.
	So, and you're resisting that.
	You're saying that's bad.
	I'm not saying this is bad.
	I'm saying the separation is bad.
	Okay.
	So let's say I'm, and the reason I need to be honest with my mother is I'm looking at our son and I'm remembering what my own childhood was like.
	Right?
	Yes.
	You told me that.
	That's going to happen, right?
	Okay.
	So I need to be honest with my mother.
	Otherwise, she's exercising unhealthy dominance over me.
	In other words, she's kind of, quote, forcing me to lie in order to be in a pretend relationship, right?
	Okay.
	So I need to be honest with my mother.
	Like, how can I tell my son, ah, son, it's really important that you tell the truth.
	Be honest.
	Don't lie to me.
	If I'm lying to my mother.
	What do you mean lying to your mother?
	My mother calls me up and says, how was your day?
	And if I've been spending the day thinking about how she abused me as a child, can I tell her the truth?
	Yes, you can.
	Okay, so I'm going to go and tell her the truth.
	So you don't have any problem with me going to tell my mother the truth, right?
	You don't have any problem with me being honest, right?
	Yes, I have no problem with you being honest.
	I just have a problem when you're trying to, you know, basically kick your mother out of your life, out of my life.
	That's not, no, that's like saying that the police put a man in jail.
	No, the man puts himself in jail.
	Do you want me to be in a relationship with my mother where I have to lie continually?
	No, I guess not.
	Fantastic.
	Okay, so I'm going to go to my mother and tell her the truth.
	Now, if she bullies and escalates and yells at me and calls me names, then what would you have me do?
	What do you think would be the right thing to do in that circumstance?
	I don't know.
	I feel like you are both just don't want to come to any kind of conclusion.
	Don't fade out of me.
	You've got strong opinions about this.
	Just be honest.
	I go to my mother, I tell her the truth.
	She escalates, she yells at me, and she calls me an asshole.
	What do you think I should do?
	Would you do what you should do?
	What would be the right thing to do?
	What would be the honorable or moral thing to do, the honest thing to do?
	If my mother is forcing me into a position where in order to spend any time with her, I have to lie.
	And by the by, she's now verbally abused me not 20 years ago, but two minutes ago.
	Because you said, well, it's deep in the past.
	What if it's not deep in the past?
	if it's right now?
	Yes, it's right now.
	And you should just tell her that it's wrong.
	You should.
	And I tell her that it's wrong.
	And she says, you're a selfish prick.
	I'm just saying, what if?
	What if?
	I mean, I know my mother a whole lot better than you do, right?
	So what if she continues to aggress against me to be verbally abusive?
	What should I do?
	He's not going to do that.
	Come on.
	What should I do if that happens?
	Don't tell me what my mother will and won't do.
	That's appalling vanity on your part.
	Who knows my mother better, you or me?
	Of course you do.
	Okay, so don't tell me what my mother's going to do or not do.
	What do I do if she continues to verbally abuse me when all I'm being is honest with her?
	Okay, how about you just hang up?
	Answer the question.
	Well, stop the conversation.
	Just stop the conversation.
	This one, this particular one.
	Okay, so I should get up and leave.
	Well, in this particular moment, yes, but not in a, in like a general sense.
	Okay, so I should get up and walk out of the conversation with my mother.
	Well, you tell her your reasons, and yes.
	Yeah, yeah, I say verbally abusive.
	I don't want to participate in the conversation, and I get up and leave, right?
	Okay, so then I talk to her a couple of days after, and I say, I want to continue the conversation because it didn't go well last time, and you got verbally abusive.
	So I'm going to pick up where I left off and talk about the issues that I have with you.
	And let's say she starts verbally abusing me again.
	Then what?
	Well, I think you have to do the same thing again.
	Okay, so I hang up.
	I talk to her a couple of days later.
	I say, I want to pick up the conversation where we left it off because it got really ugly last time.
	You were verbally abusive, and I don't appreciate that.
	But I'm going to continue with the conversation.
	And she becomes verbally abusive again.
	What do I do?
	Well, yeah, you got it.
	You guys really need to take a break until you finally can.
	Fantastic.
	Change your words.
	Problem.
	What is your objection?
	Since you agree, if these happens.
	If this happens.
	No, I don't know.
	No objections.
	No, no, no.
	You just, now, hang on.
	You just said you know.
	You said that we need to take a break.
	Well, yeah, but not like a super break or forever.
	Okay, how long?
	Supportly, I take a break.
	Let's say I take a break for a month, right?
	Okay.
	And I call her up and I say, hey, I'm going to continue the conversation where we left it off because you got verbally abusive, which I don't appreciate.
	I'd really like you to not do that.
	And then I start talking to her about the issues that I had as a child, and she gets verbally aggressive and calls me names again.
	Then what do I do?
	I mean, we can do this as long as you want, honey.
	Yeah, I think we're right.
	It's been 35 years for me, right?
	Yeah, we're running in circles, Agan.
	No, I'm not running in circles at all.
	We're not running in circles at all.
	I'm asking you what happens or what I'm supposed to do if my mother continues to be aggressive or yelly or verbally abusive towards me.
	Well, yeah, you can, you can, yeah.
	You can kind of stop talking to her because what's the reason?
	Okay.
	So if you cannot agree with me, I'm I agree with you in a circumstances that you described.
	Of course.
	Yeah, no, and now I accept that, right?
	Now, if my mother gives me permission to record and I come back with the recording where she's calling me an asshole, you would agree that I should take a break if the behavior doesn't change.
	Is that right?
	Yes, okay.
	Fantastic.
	So good.
	I'm glad we had this conversation.
	I'm glad it ended.
	Okay, so that's the role play.
	And by the way, great job.
	Great job.
	Fantastic.
	Really amazing.
	Amazing.
	So tell me what you think.
	I don't know.
	Everything that you said, almost 70, 80%, I already said myself in one way or another.
	You told me you avoided having this conversation with your wife.
	Didn't you tell me that?
	Yes, but I had those arguments after this conversation.
	Like why, when we were basically discussing it over and over again after the fact, I gave her all those arguments after the fact because I only basically came to them later on because my decision to take this break was kind of spur of the moment, even though it was just a years and years and years build up to this.
	But then I was able to formulate my thoughts clearly.
	Okay, so let's dip into the roleplay.
	And I know we've talked for a long time, so we'll keep this one brief.
	Let's dip into the role play again, right?
	Okay.
	Honey, I don't like the fact that you're in contact with my mother.
	Okay, again, really?
	Don't we have better things to discuss?
	We have so many problems here.
	I'm sorry.
	What do you mean?
	Are you trying to tell me what's important to me?
	I don't understand.
	Yeah, I don't understand.
	No, but you can't tell me.
	Hang on.
	You can't tell me what's important for me.
	I'm not saying.
	I'm just mad about the fact that this thing is still important to you.
	Like, move on.
	But it is still important to me.
	So you got to deal with that, right?
	Yeah, I guess I have to.
	Okay, good.
	Okay, so I don't like the fact that you're still in contact with my mother because she's never apologized to me.
	She called me an asshole when I was just being honest with her.
	And she abused me as a child.
	She's never apologized.
	She's never made any kind of compensation or restitution.
	And she verbally abused me the last time I talked to her.
	So I don't like the fact that you're in contact with somebody who's been really vicious to me and has done me the most harm of any individual on this planet.
	What do you want me to do?
	You want me to stop being in contact with my mother?
	That's obvious, isn't it?
	Yeah, but how do I do this?
	What do you think?
	Oh, do you want me to handle it?
	I can handle it.
	How do we, how do you?
	Oh, that's easy.
	I mean, yeah, I can do all the technical stuff.
	I can just block the living shit out of everything and make sure that she can't contact you.
	We can change your number if we have to.
	I can handle all that.
	Don't worry about that.
	That's totally, I mean, I know I guess it's a big ask for you.
	But no, I'll handle all of that.
	Don't worry about it.
	No, no, this sounds stupid.
	Do you want me to block her?
	No, no, I'll do it.
	You don't have to block her.
	I'll do it.
	I'll handle it all.
	Don't worry about it.
	That's awkward.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, and listen, listen, it's a lot to do with me.
	I should have been more decisive earlier on, and I apologize for that.
	Like, genuinely, deeply, and humbly, I apologize for that.
	I should have been like the moment she contacted you after I wanted to take a break from her, I should have, you know, I don't know, put my foot down or whatever you want to call it.
	So, so that's on me.
	And, and, you know, as you know, things are difficult with parents.
	And so, I hope that you can understand why that's a challenge.
	And I understand that it's not easy for you.
	I really do, but it's got to happen.
	What do you mean, this got to happen?
	It's got to happen.
	It's upsetting for me.
	It's bad for me.
	It's negative for me.
	It's destructive to my peace of mind and my happiness.
	It comes between you and me.
	In the same way that if some friend had beaten you up repeatedly, and I wouldn't like that friend of yours, right?
	You're mixing friends with parents again.
	Friends are not.
	I know, because morality is universal.
	Right.
	In the same way that you don't get a get-out-of-jail free card if you're a parent, you don't get excuses from morality.
	Yeah, but you think.
	Or let's say that you had a friend who prided himself on beating the crap out of his children 20 years ago.
	Would I want to be friends with that person?
	Would I want that person around us and our children?
	Well, she's not really proud of this.
	She's ashamed.
	No, she's not.
	Because people who are ashamed admit their shame and apologize.
	She just can do this.
	She just for a sign.
	So she's too full of pride to apologize.
	I don't care why she can't apologize.
	I care that she doesn't apologize, which means she's still dangerous.
	She still justifies what she did.
	Do you want an unrepentant child abuser around our family?
	She's not around our family.
	Do you want an unrepentant child abuser around our family?
	No, if you're putting it this way, no.
	No, she's not putting it this way.
	Did she abuse me as a child?
	Yes.
	Has she ever apologized?
	No.
	She is an unrepentant child abuser.
	That's not a weird definition.
	That's a simple fact.
	It's not a pleasant fact, but it is a simple one.
	If we don't want an unrepentant child abuser around our family, we've got to regretfully take a break.
	Listen.
	Listen, I think you need a therapy, and I think we need a family therapist.
	And if the family therapist tells me to cut contact with her, I'll do this.
	I'm not going to do this just because you're telling me to do this.
	We need a third party.
	I'm not asking.
	Hang on.
	I'm not asking you to do this because I'm telling you to.
	I'm asking you to do this because it's the right thing to do.
	Because if there was someone who had harmed you, I would not want to be in contact with them, especially if they were unapologetic.
	I mean, do you remember our vows, right?
	That we're going to put each other first.
	You remember that, right?
	Holding no others before each other, right?
	That you and I are each other's number one priority, which means if something is negative for you, it's negative for me.
	If something harms you, it harms me.
	If something upsets you, it upsets me.
	I have no loyalties outside the family.
	And morality, of course, right?
	But I need to have loyalty to morality to even be bothered by this, right?
	So we are one flesh, right?
	I mean, we had all these vows to put each other first to be one flesh.
	Do you remember all of that, right?
	Well, you can say so.
	Sorry, you didn't take those vows?
	Are you asking me?
	Did we take those vows?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, we just had like a formal ceremony without your one flesh or whatever, right?
	All right, yeah.
	Forsaking all others, isn't that the phrase?
	Yeah, but it's a Christian tradition.
	We're not Christians.
	Well, but we've told those vows, right?
	It doesn't matter whether they're Christian or not.
	I mean, if a Christian doctor writes you a prescription for antibiotics, do you take it?
	Yes.
	Of course.
	So these are the vows that we took.
	If I had an affair, it would be putting my happiness above your happiness, right?
	Yeah, and if I ran up a big gambling debt, I'd be putting my happiness or my excitement of gambling above what was good for you and the family, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so I don't act in a way that is harmful to you.
	Okay.
	So you shouldn't act in a way that's harmful to me and you being in contact with my mother is harmful to me.
	So I'm not telling you.
	I'm reminding you of your vows and of your love for me and to do what is best for me, just as I wake up in the morning trying to think about what's best for you and our children.
	And if something is harming you, I'm not going to do it.
	And this is harming me.
	So don't you?
	So, yeah, if it's harming you, I think you need therapy.
	If it's harming you.
	Why?
	So, so if I do something that's harming you, the solution is for you to go to therapy.
	So if I have an affair, just to take an extreme example, if I have an affair and you're upset by it, and I say, well, you clearly need therapy.
	No, it's first of all, this is extreme.
	Second of all, it's a different situation.
	It's just some mom in the past.
	Honey, honey, it's worse.
	How is this worse?
	Because this woman abused me as a child and continues to abuse me as an adult.
	She's a malicious and cruel person, and you're inviting her into the family.
	Not in...
	I'm not inviting her.
	You are continuing to engage with her after I've repeatedly asked you to stop because she's a cruel and malicious person who abused me repeatedly in the past, continues to abuse me in the present, and won't take any responsibility or accountability.
	And you are inviting this person who is toxic and harmful to me into the family.
	I'm inviting this person.
	I'm inviting this person.
	Can we still agree on the fact that...
	Listen, I'm not gonna...
	I can't do this.
	I can't.
	No, no, no, honey, honey.
	This is marriage.
	You can do this.
	That's like me saying, well, I can't be monogamous.
	My God.
	It's like, no, that's marriage.
	Marriage is monogamy.
	And marriage is, I, and you and I are one flesh.
	What's bad for me is bad for you.
	What's bad for you is bad for me.
	That's marriage.
	So if you're saying I can't do marriage, that's a whole different thing.
	But what do you mean?
	What is it you can't do?
	I can't live with this negativity.
	Fantastic.
	I agree with you.
	I agree with you.
	I don't want to live with people who have abused me in my family orbit.
	I don't want someone to be friends with my wife who's also abusive towards me.
	That's a negative experience for me, and it's easy.
	We just have to get rid of the person who's toxic and abusive, and the negativity goes away.
	I completely agree with you.
	We don't want to live with this negativity.
	I don't, I just, listen, I just don't believe that this, just because we're, we, we block her, this will kind of help you with everything.
	Look at all the other aspects of the people.
	No, but that's not, hang on, hang on.
	That's not your decision to make.
	You have to ask me what's best for me.
	What's best for me is you not being in contact with an unrepentant child abuser who abused me.
	That's what's best for me.
	So it's not up to you.
	It's up to what's best for me.
	And you can't tell me what's best for me or not.
	That's like telling me what my favorite flavor of food is or my favorite color.
	You can't tell me that.
	I'm telling you, I don't want an abusive woman who tyrannized me as a child, who beat me up as a child, who verbally abuses me as an adult, as recently as a year ago, called me an asshole.
	I don't want that person in our family orbit.
	That is not up to you.
	That is up to our vows.
	And I promise you this, honey: if there's someone who is really disturbing you that I'm friends with who calls you an asshole, what would I do?
	Would I cut that person off?
	Of course I would, because nobody disrespects my wife.
	Nobody harms my wife and has my approval.
	Nobody calls my wife a bitch and I'm friends with them.
	Nobody.
	Because that's loyalty.
	And that's putting you first and our marriage first and our vows first and our family first.
	Do you understand?
	Yes, I understand.
	But what kind of example is this for our kids?
	Yes, we are acting moral and everything, but what if you're not?
	What example is it to our children if we act in a moral manner?
	What are you talking about?
	If we're acting by cutting the parents off.
	What if our child, our son, look at that and think, oh, this is an option.
	It's on the table.
	It is an option.
	What do you mean?
	Of course it's an option.
	No, it's terrible.
	I don't want this.
	Look, it's terrible.
	Of course, it's terrible.
	Nobody's saying it's good.
	Of course, it's terrible, but we're going to be great parents.
	They won't want to detach from us because we're not going to be beating them black and blue and calling them assholes.
	Yes, but it would be for because we said, no, you cannot get this candy.
	Do you think, hang on, do you think that I don't want to see my mother because she said no to me getting candy once?
	Yes, but our children.
	Come on, no, honey, honey.
	That is a grave insult to me.
	That is appalling.
	That is horrible to say to someone you love.
	I'm just saying that our children.
	Come on, you owe me an apology for that one.
	That's terrible to say that the reason I don't want to see my mother is she said no because I wanted candy once.
	No, you, you have okay.
	I'm sorry.
	You, you had your reasons for this, but our children.
	They're not my reasons.
	They should be your reasons too, because they're just reasons.
	You don't have verbally abusive people in your life, especially if they beat you senseless as a child.
	They're not my reasons.
	Like, oh, I'm just accommodating his crazy reasons.
	No.
	I'm shocked that you don't want this.
	I'm shocked that you don't say to me, this woman beat you as a child, screamed at you as a child, called you an asshole as an adult.
	You've tried honorably to connect with her.
	If she keeps escalating, the last thing I'd want to do is have something to do with a woman who harmed my beloved husband in this kind of way.
	It's kind of shocking to me that we even have to have this conversation.
	Yeah, it's shocking to me, too.
	Well, you can't just mirror what I'm saying.
	You understand that it's kind of shocking that you want to stay buddy buddies with somebody who abuses me.
	We're not buddy buddies.
	I just.
	Okay, then there's nothing.
	If it's not an important relationship, we could cut it.
	Can cut it.
	If it's not important to you, great.
	Then there's no reason to have any discussion.
	Because the less important the relationship is to you, the more offensive it is to me that you want to maintain it at all.
	All right.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Good.
	I appreciate that.
	Give me your phone.
	And then you block.
	And we're done.
	Give me your phone, block, and we're done.
	No, I mean your mother might try some other stuff, but the point is we got the principle across, right?
	I'm just afraid that our kids will get this message the wrong way.
	Hey, if your kids get the message that you should not have abusive people in your life, isn't that a great message?
	Yeah, but they can look at the abuse because this generation can see the fact that we're, you know, not giving them candy or, you know, something like that as an abuse.
	No, because if your children know that you love them and you explain to them reasonably why they can't have all the candy they want, they will appreciate it.
	How do you know?
	When they become adults and they still have teeth and they don't have diabetes and they're not obese, they will appreciate it.
	They won't view it as abusive that you didn't let them live on candy when they become adults.
	Of course they won't.
	Because as adults, they won't live on candy either.
	Well, you never know what those kids would do.
	Come on.
	So this is what I mean by taking having some kind of authority.
	The authority is not bullying.
	The authority is not you have to do what I say.
	The authority is act as if you love me and maintain the wedding fast.
	You can't love someone and love someone who abused them and continues to abuse them.
	It's just not possible.
	So you've got to make a choice.
	All right.
	So that's what I mean by male authority.
	And again, it's female authority can work the same way.
	But leadership for you in this kind of way, holding someone accountable to moral standards is tough, right?
	And I sympathize because you weren't raised with any male authority.
	You were raised with women running the show and getting whatever they wanted through escalation and aggression.
	Pretty much everyone who can, you know, coerce you into anything.
	Right.
	Right.
	Now, of course, I got pretty emphatic and I raised my voice a little bit, but I wasn't abusive.
	Yeah, I wasn't, I was not, even though I used the same arguments as you, I would just say to get passionate.
	It's okay to get passionate.
	You can't call people names, but you can get really emphatic and passionate.
	It's really important.
	It's really important to you that your wife supports you against a woman who abused you and continues to abuse you.
	It's really important.
	Be important.
	Make it important.
	Make it understandable to her how important it is to you.
	Don't just be, quote, rational.
	But it really is important to you that someone stands up with you against your mother.
	All right.
	And don't be afraid to be honest in your feelings about that.
	Oh, I'm not afraid.
	I'm just.
	Well, I don't think you've been emphatic enough that she gets it emotionally.
	She just gets scared because I'm getting really emotional and kind of angry at what she tries to do.
	I mean, if she gets, she says, I'm scared, say, no, no, focus on me.
	This is about me.
	It's not about you.
	Focus on me.
	This is what I need.
	Focus on me.
	Yeah, focus on you.
	It looks, if your wife is really upset about something and you say, well, I have these five things I'm upset about, that'd be kind of rude, right?
	Whoever brings up the thing that they're upset about dominates the conversation.
	Okay.
	And if she interrupts you, don't be afraid to tell her that's rude.
	That is rude.
	It is.
	Okay.
	Have authority in the, You've reviewed this morally.
	You've tried to be honorable with your mother and give her every chance to apologize.
	You have had the conversations.
	You've done the right things.
	Your mother continues to escalate and be verbally abusive.
	You've taken every honorable measure to try and maintain or improve the relationship, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	Right.
	So you're in the right.
	And once you're in the right, never back down.
	Once you're in the right, never back down.
	I'm not really sure that I'm really in the right because my wife can bring up stuff like, well, aren't you raising voice on your son or whatever?
	And that's true.
	I'm not perfect.
	I'm sorry.
	Okay.
	So then, yes.
	Okay.
	So if she says that, absolutely.
	And if we're going to say, and one of the reasons why I'm having trouble controlling my temper is I still have an abusive person in my life, which means that somehow abuse has to be a value or it's not a negative.
	So help me lower the heat of my temperature by not having a verbal abuser in my life.
	Wow, is it really that simple?
	Well, it helps.
	Everyone you allow in your life programs your mind.
	And if your mother is in your life, it's through your wife, then she's choosing a verbal abuser over her own husband in opposition to her husband's peace of mind.
	She's got to not do that.
	Now, the effects of that, yeah, that would be great.
	But I have a tough time being more even-tempered when my wife is siding with an abuser who abused me and continues to.
	Your mother is sabotaging your marriage by doing an end-round around you to get to your wife.
	Oh, yeah, absolutely.
	Okay, so your wife is participating in the sabotage of your marriage enthusiastically to some degree.
	I understand this.
	Okay, so you got to tell her.
	Don't like, I know my mother, you don't.
	So you got to just trust me on this.
	That's authority, right?
	I know my mother.
	You don't.
	Yeah.
	Who knows your mother better?
	You or your wife?
	Oh, yeah, we answered us.
	This is obvious.
	Right.
	So then, you know, like if my wife says, listen, we need something, we need new silverware or whatever, right?
	Or we need new cutlery, right?
	Do I have a clue?
	You mean, do I have a clue?
	No, do I have a clue whether we need new cutlery or not?
	I don't know, probably not.
	I don't.
	I don't have the first clue.
	My wife says, we need a dining room table.
	Well, my daughter and I used to like to play in the dining room.
	Now she says we need a dining room table.
	Do I have a clue whether we do or don't?
	My wife says we need to repaint this or we need new curtains.
	I don't have a clue.
	But what do I say?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	Yep.
	Sounds great.
	If I say I need another microphone for whatever reason, my wife says, okay, yeah, you can explain it to me if you want, but it doesn't really matter because you have authority.
	My wife has authority in certain areas where she knows and cares, and I don't know or care much.
	Yeah, that's one of my issues.
	I'm not going to defer.
	Okay, so yeah, so when your wife cares about stuff and it's important to her and it's not important to you, she rules, right?
	Well, she should.
	She should.
	Of course she should.
	And so if I say I need X, Y, and Z, right?
	Like I started doing these Twitter spaces and I tried to get a Bluetooth headset to work with Twitter spaces because the built-in phone microphone is not great, right?
	Now, I could explain this all to my wife, and she's fine.
	She's happy to hear or whatever, but you're like, yeah, get what you need.
	I trust you.
	Been running this business for almost 20 years.
	Get what you need.
	Right?
	So, so the person who has expertise rules.
	That's a division of labor within a marriage, right?
	But it requires trust.
	Now, who has expertise in your mother?
	You or your wife?
	Obviously, yeah.
	So she defers to you.
	It's not up to her.
	Yeah, you're right.
	Your mother and your family, and she has to defer to you.
	That's what I mean by male authority.
	And there's things, you know, you got to defer to her on some things as well, right?
	And I'm trying to say that I think I should start with myself here because I'm not really deferring in some areas where I should.
	So I'm not really sure.
	Please.
	And here's the thing, too.
	Once you defer to your wife in some areas, if she pushes back on areas you're an expert in, what do you say?
	Hey, hang on.
	The last three things, I just said, okay, right?
	Come on.
	I mean, I'm an expert in my mom.
	You're an expert in how many throat pillows we need.
	Yeah, you're right.
	You're right.
	I don't know why we need more throat pillows than Adams in the house, but it's a thing.
	So if my wife says we need more throat pillows, I'm like, okay.
	That's right.
	That's right.
	This is this is like.
	If you say, stop talking to my mom, she says, okay.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	This is like a long-hanging fruit for me now.
	It's one of the most obvious and easiest thing to do, but I'm just in a habit of resisting.
	Sure.
	And that's because you did not grow up with benevolent female authority.
	Yeah.
	You're right.
	I mean, I love what my wife does with the place.
	I feel like I'm walking into paradise.
	Girly world is beautiful, right?
	So once you have benevolent female authority, yeah, defer away to it.
	Okay.
	I mean, what man who's not married gets his blood work done?
	My wife's like, time to do your blood work.
	Okay.
	Right.
	So, yeah.
	I mean, if you, again, if you're having kids with a woman, then you've got to defer to her authority.
	And then she has to defer to where you have expertise.
	So I think that will help.
	All right.
	Is there anything else you wanted to mention?
	Because we're clocking up for three hours here and I'm running out of inspiration.
	I'm so sorry.
	I just.
	No, no, don't apologize.
	I kept it going.
	There's nothing.
	You have nothing to apologize for.
	I'm just telling you that I'm not much good after three hours.
	No, seriously, I thought we're going to just keep it to like 1.30.
	No, that's not 140.
	No problem at all.
	I'm happy to have done it.
	I thought the role play was good.
	And this is a very important topic.
	I mean, the West is dying for lack of male authority.
	And so this is one of the reasons I wanted to dig into this topic a lot.
	Yeah.
	And the funny thing is that this is actually not happening in the West, so to speak.
	Well, yes, but I mean, the same principles apply.
	And your son, in particular, this is why I also wanted to dig into the topic, is your son in particular, needs to see male authority.
	He needs to see female authority and he needs to see male authority.
	Thanks.
	Thanks.
	All right.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Not only that, I think I would like to tackle a few other things that I wanted to tackle initially.
	I just went into this direction because this was more important.
	So yeah, absolutely.
	Well, yeah, this is pretty important right now.
	So yeah, just shoot me up.
	We can do a public or private call, whatever you like.
	And I really appreciate your time today.
	And I look forward to the updates.
	I cannot thank you enough.
	Thank you, Stephanie.
	You're very welcome, my friend.
	Thanks for a great chat.
	Yeah, goodbye.

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