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Oct. 15, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
28:06
The Rational Case for Marriage!
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All right, Stephanie Molyneux from Free Domain Freedom.com slash Donate to help out the show, help out philosophy, really would deeply humbly and gratefully appreciate your kindness and support Freedom Main.com slash donate.
So question from an ex reader's like an ex-girlfriend.
From an exreader or follower, and the question is this.
What are the secular arguments for marriage?
He said all they can come up with is sort of vague hedonism and things like that.
What are the secular arguments for marriage?
Well the first thing, of course, we need to figure out is what is marriage for.
Marriage, of course, is the goal of a lifelong love and parabondic monogamous commitment from usually a male to a female for purposes of reproduction.
I mean that's the definition.
Again, roads are for cars, but bikes use them too, right?
So that is the general idea.
So why?
Why is there such a thing as marriage?
I mean, ra rabbits don't have it, uh uh other creatures uh mongoose monkeys, mongooses don't have it.
So why do we have uh marriage?
Now marriage is for one thing fundamentally and one thing only, and that is the regulation of sexual activity.
And how do we know that?
Because it's the most unforgivable thing in a marriage to have sex with other people.
You can be friends with other people.
You can go to concerts with other people, you can play squash and tennis with other people, you can go to parties with other people, again, assuming none of this is flirty or sexually charged, you can do just about anything with other people, but you cannot have sex with other people.
That's cheating.
Now, again, I know there's emotional affairs, but emotional affairs are dangerous insofar as they generally lead to physical affairs and they also take away from emotional investment and the pair bonding attachments of the marriage.
So marriage is about the regulation of sexual activity.
In other words, oh look at that.
Look at that.
Well, you can't look at that.
But the car has just told me for the first time this year, roads may be icy.
Drive with care.
Ha ha there we go.
Time to gun it.
And I knew then I was gonna have to gun it.
So since marriage is about the regulation of sexual activity, then the next question is why sexual activity or why only sexual activity or why primarily sexual activity.
You know, obviously, if you're um a man who's married to a woman, you can be close to your sister, right? 'Cause you're not gonna have an affair with your sister.
And and so on, right?
So why does human sexuality need to be regulated?
In other words, why haven't rabbits evolved to pair bond and to have a lifelong attachments and wolves and humans have?
Well, of course the answer I don't need to hedge or or be coy, right?
The the answer is relatively simple, uh, and that's because of the products of human conception, right?
The products of sexual activity are uh of course human beings, human babies.
Now human babies take twenty one to twenty-five years to reach brain maturity.
I mean, that's a big old investment.
I mean, if you've ever signed a mortgage for twenty-five years, you know that's gonna ha ha it's kind of a big old investment that's going on with the mortgage, right?
And so because of because of that, you're like, wow, I I I've got a bill to pay for twenty-five years.
And even if we say, you know, historically maybe kids got married off at eighteen or whatever, okay, that's still an eighteen year investment.
And particularly when the kids are young, it's a massive investment, right?
You're up three times a night, four times a night, you're getting very little sleep, and this goes on for a year or two or three, uh, depending on a variety of factors, could even go longer, but you know, generally, that's the sort of that's the time frame.
And I'm under, you know, zero illusions about that because I was a stay at home dad from the time my daughter was born.
So no illusions about that.
So the products of human conception render the mother economically non viable.
Right?
Just you need to sort of let that sink.
Let that sink in.
You need to let that sink in, that the products of human conception are make the mother economically non-viable.
So the mother turns in turns from someone who can produce economic value to someone who requires enormous economic value rather than being a gatherer and a protector and a you know grinder of flower and a baker of blah blah blah, rather than any of that stuff.
She now is kind of exhausted all the time, and she needs like, I don't know, 500 extra calories or more a day, just because she's breastfeeding, and she is recovering from childbirth, and so she's not uh exactly going to be, you know, sprinting down to catch the errant lamb or kid, uh goat or whatever, right?
So she turns from somebody who is economically productive to somebody who requires massive amounts of economic support.
Now, the amount of investment, of course, that her husband let's just say the amount of investment that the father of her child needs to put into his child, into his wife, into his family, is massive.
Ninety percent of a man's income, if he's married and has a couple of kids, 90% of his income goes to his uh children.
It's a massive investment.
Now, of course, as the saying goes, mama's baby daddy's maybe, maybe.
The man needs to know that the children are his, because it is an absolute catastrophe genetically.
It's an absolute catastrophe.
The worst conceivable, get it, the worst conceivable catastrophe for a man is to invest his resources into children that aren't his.
Absolute catastrophe.
Not only is he not propagating his own genes, he in fact is propagating other men's genes.
Now, for a woman, if she is going to be provided for, for a woman, she would rather choose the most high quality, high value, high height, high assertiveness, high dominance, high uber chad, giga chad, or whatever, she would rather have his children, because he is the highest quality specimen, so to speak, she would rather have his children if he can provide for her.
This is the Harem idea or the um the warlord idea or whatever, right?
So assuming that the man, she would much rather have the highest value man possible.
Which is why it's so easy to tell women, you know, don't settle, or why women would rather be the side piece of a high quality man than the wife of a lower quality man.
And again, I'm not saying all, but there's there's this sort of impulse.
And we can see this, of course, in the dating patterns, where the the Chads are able to get a lot of girls and the sort of lower 50% of men, uh, it's pretty it's pretty tough, right?
So women are drawn to get the highest value man that they can get to provide for their children.
Men, in order to be motivated to provide for their children, need to know that their children are theirs.
And of course, as we know, the traditional way that men know that the children are theirs is to marry a virgin and to have sex with her on a honeymoon where she's away from all other men.
That's what the purpose of the honeymoon is.
The purpose of the honeymoon is to take a virgin away from all other men and have a lot of sex with her for a couple of weeks, and then you know that the resulting children are yours.
And that cements the pair bond.
The pear bond for the man happens on the honeymoon when he's around his bride twenty-four-seven for a couple of weeks in some place where she doesn't know any men, and therefore the only sex she's having is with him, and therefore the children that are or at least the first child that is produced from that is his child, right?
That's what the purpose of the honeymoon is.
If the woman is not a virgin, at least have her not be pregnant, or have children when you marry her, and then you again go away for the honeymoon, and it's just you having a lot of sex, prior to birth control, of course, having a lot of sex with your uh bride, and then the children that come out are yours, and and so on.
Now, of course, you know, you go to work and so on, and there's supposed to be a bro code, you don't sleep with married women, particularly those with children, because that is a betrayal of the other man's paternity certainty and all this kind of stuff.
So this is sort of in the past, and this is why uh women who slept around would get the Scarlet Letter, right?
And this is the Anna Karenina and uh the Scarlet Letter and uh all of these stories about the women who are just just madly drawn to some other man and how sad and how tragic and blah blah blah.
But the reason why adulterers were stoned is because not function.
Like society literally cannot function if men are uncertain of paternity.
So that's just kind of foundational.
If men are uncertain of paternity, men will not pair bond.
The purpose of parabonding for men is paternity certainty.
Now, of course, you can get this from DNA and all of that, but we're talking about how sort of these things evolved.
So men want a virgins and a honeymoon to ensure the children are theirs.
Or at least the first child is theirs, and then you know everyone around you is kind of married and and so on, and you hopefully trust your wife she's not going to step out, and this, that and the other, right?
So a woman wants the highest quality mate who's going to provide for her.
In this case, unfortunately, because the provision is provided by the government, women don't have to choose high quality men in terms of provision, and therefore they choose exciting situationships with guys they can't get to commit to them because it's sexually stimulating and it allows them to um squeeze their tender parts into old faithful geisters of sheer orgasmic joy.
So the purpose of marriage is to provide resources to women and paternity certainty, or as close as possible to men.
So why do we want that?
Well, children flourish in a pair bonded and again, I'm just talking male-female, though I get that people who are gay or lesbian can also marry.
We're just talking about sort of how the institution evolved.
Trust me, if you've spent any time around the gay community, uh, or had any friends who are gay, you would recognize that it's not the most fertile ground for the evolution of pair bonding.
Conventions such as marriage.
So what is best for children is a pair-bonded, you know, mother-father relationship where paternity certainty is there and provision is there.
If there's paternity uncertainty, provision is faltering or non existent, and if the women are not provided for, if the woman is not provided for, then very bad things happen, right?
Bad things happen if the husband is not sure he's the father of his children, and bad things happen when a man impregnates a woman and does not provide for her, which is what's called a shotgun wedding, right?
You m you impregnate my daughter, I will make you marry her.
I will force you to marry her.
If you try to run, we will hunt you down, and we will drag you back, and we will put you in front of the priest, and you will be married under the law.
You will be married, and you you can't escape.
You can't get away.
And this is why, of course, there was an enormous amount of effort throughout almost all of human history to control particularly teenage sexuality from its natural florid expression, so that commitment could be established prior to coitus, which produces children.
So that's what we're evolved for, at Least in the colder climates in the West.
In warmer climates, it's not as bad because you don't have winter, so there's a little bit less pair bonding in warmer climates.
So that's what it's for.
Now what's the secular sort of modern argument?
Well, I mean, the secular moral argument is that's what we have evolved for and towards as the very best environment for children.
Children flourish by far the most in a stable, monogamous, parabonded two-parent household.
Again, evolutionarily speaking, we're talking males and females.
Sort of modern reproductive technology and surrogates were generally not available or accepted.
So it's sort of saying, well, why should I not eat grass?
It's everywhere.
And and people might even pay me to eat their grass, because it's like mowing their lawn.
Well, why would you not eat grass like a horse does or a cow does?
Well, because we can't digest it.
Because we don't have four stomachs or whatever, I don't know, cows, they do that.
I don't know how horses do it.
But why do we not because we haven't evolved to eat grass?
It's like saying, why why do we eat food rather than just getting our energy from sunshine?
Photosynthesis or chlorophyll or whatever, right?
Well, because that's not how we've evolved.
We have evolved to eat meats and fruits and grains and vegetables.
I know the grains is a little dicey for some people, but let's say at least meats and fruits and vegetables.
We've evolved to eat those.
So that's what we gotta eat.
We have evolved to parabond, and children have evolved to be happiest and most secure, and to flourish the best in that environment.
Now, if you don't want to have kids, if you don't want to get married, I mean, whatever, that's fine.
But you know, you you better save your money.
Like, people are like, oh, I don't have kids, I could spend all my money, look at all the stuff I can do, it's really great, and blah, blah, blah.
There are these this is really I mean, to me, it's just outright propaganda, probably comes from some adversarial foreign power, which is like, yep, had a great time, dropped past my uh nephews, and then the moment they got difficult, I bounced out of there and I went for my walk in the woods and right, you know, uh had a great time being single, single life, blah, blah, blah.
A day in the life of a carefree idiot single guy, okay, uh, that's fine.
Then you just save your money because nobody's gonna be there to take care of your wrinkled old ass when you get ancient.
And you say, ah, but the government is like, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, good luck with all that.
Okay, I don't, I don't know.
People who don't have kids, like when the money runs out, uh the government money runs out, don't care.
I don't care what happens to them.
I mean, I don't care.
Oh, well, it's gonna be tough.
Yeah, well, I mean, you chose not to have kids.
It's like people who like in university, right?
I remember this girl asked me out in university, and it was like the second or third week in university, and I'm like, nope, I'm staying in to write an essay.
Because I just spent like a year and a half working up north, and I was like keen to not do that anymore, right?
So I didn't.
But it's like the people who like, well, I uh I partied I partied uh for the last uh couple of months, uh every weekend, you know, Friday, Saturday nights, and I drank during the week, and I I didn't study and I didn't do any homework and I didn't write, didn't write my essays, and oh man, I failed.
It's like, but you but you had fun.
Like you had fun when I wasn't having fun, you had fun uh partying and I were studying, so you failed.
It's like, oh man, but this is really terrible.
And it's like, well, I mean, I don't care.
I don't care.
I don't care.
Particularly if you've given people good advice, then the the the really great, you know, this is why maybe I'm a bit of a busybody, but the reason why I give people good advice is obviously I hope that they'll listen and and and all of that and and make better decisions or make good decisions.
I hope they'll do that.
But the great thing about giving people advice is well, um you don't have to care If they don't listen.
Like it's great.
It's really great.
You don't have to care if you if they don't listen.
Right?
So you say to, you know, Uncle Joe, Man, you gotta you gotta stop eating so much and you gotta stop smoking because being fat and a smoker is really bad.
And you s you sort of nag him a bunch of times, and he's like, nah, I just like to have fun, you square.
And it's like, so then when you get sick, you don't have to care.
I mean, that that's what the the purpose of good advice is.
Like the worst case scenario of good advice is people don't listen, and then you don't have to care.
So, I mean, all the people who don't have kids, they don't save their money, and then they get old, and you know, even if they get pensions, it'll be worth very little, and they're gonna complain and and blah, blah, blah, and and and whine and and and get hysterical, and it's like, yeah, I don't care.
I don't care.
I don't care.
I mean, you knew that the society was in debt, you knew about the national debt, you knew about unfunded liabilities.
And if you didn't, well, then that's on you too, right?
I mean uh a friend of mine genuinely forgot when his exam was.
He wrote down the wrong date.
Genuinely forgot when his exam was.
And they just flunked him.
It was a genuine accent.
I get that.
I understand.
Like, um, you know, whatever they got their rules, and everyone can say I forgot, and I get all of that.
But uh nonetheless, right?
I mean, so he made a mistake.
And he he failed the course.
And so, you know, I was always told, well, you know, you've got to be knowledgeable pol politically, and you know, don't you you know the democracy, you you vo you people want the right to vote, which means that they I mean nobody says I want the right to vote, but I have no idea what I'm voting about.
I remember a guy at a plane once telling me that he voted for just for for uh Pierre Trudeau because Pierre Trudeau's wife was hot, right?
So so that's fine, you can do that.
Uh you can ignore reality, you can ignore math, uh, you could ignore facts, and uh and then you're gonna be broke.
Okay.
I mean, I have as much sympathy as for people who are like, well, I'm uh I'm gonna go down to the track and I'm gonna bet my life savings on the ponies, and then they lose it all, right?
Red 22, right?
They lose it all.
It's like, well, that's you know, I'm not even gonna say that's a shame.
You you gambled and you lost.
I'm not gonna you know, I'll say to people I don't think it's a good idea to gamble, but if you go gamble and you lose everything, I don't care.
I don't care.
I I sort of save my compassion for people who are uh who are going through bad things through no fault of their own.
I'm not at the same time uh as I have compassion for people who are going through tough stuff through no fault of their own, like the kids in particular, children in particular.
Um I'm not at the same time going to have compassion for people who are going through difficult things through no fault of their own, and also have compassion for people who are going through bad things through every fault of their own.
Like I'm just not gonna do it.
In the same way that I I'm not gonna forgive people who genuinely apologize and make restitution, and also those who deny they've done anything wrong and get mad at me for even bringing it up.
Like I'm just not gonna do it.
I mean, I guess you can if you want, I just there's no way.
No, you couldn't couldn't pay me enough money to do that.
So the purpose, of course, of uh marriage is it's best for kids.
Right?
I mean baby rabbits have evolved to be comfortable with no dad, right?
But uh baby wolves uh need a father figure, right?
And we have evolved as the ultimate case-elected creatures, we have evolved to flourish in a situation of parabonding.
And of course there's also just a massive amount of knowledge.
This is why parabonding is important, is that there's a massive amount of cultural and religious and legal and moral knowledge that needs to be transferred.
I mean, from from parent to child.
I mean, in the same way that wolves, uh, they need they need to transfer a lot of knowledge about hunting to their offspring, right?
Uh uh what do you need to what do you need to say to your baby rabbits?
Um eat grass that's everywhere, uh bang anything with fur that moves, and watch out for hawks.
I mean, that's it, right?
It's not eat, screw, run.
Wasn't that a no, eat pre love, sorry.
That's same difference.
So uh that's why.
That that's what's best for Children, and that's what we evolved to do.
That's how our hearts have evolved.
That's how our emotions have evolved.
That's how our gut sense, our moral sense has evolved, and that's how our sexuality has evolved.
So we want variety, and it's like I I get that.
I mean, I get that.
But when it comes to sexuality, it's better to have someone around for your whole life who cares about what you like and and you know gets better at it, and it's like that's that's what you want, right?
I mean, that's that's better, right?
So why what is the secular case of marriage?
It's what we're built for, it's what we've evolved for, it's what's best for us, it's what's most natural for us, and it is also what is best and healthiest for children.
So again, if people don't want to get have kids, then it doesn't, you know, it doesn't massively matter whether they participate or not, live together or not, it doesn't matter.
Because the purpose of marriage, as I said, is proficient for the woman, which if you don't want to have kids, the woman's just gonna work, right?
So she doesn't need provision.
The purpose of marriage is to raise to as high a level of probability as humanly possible paternity certainty for men.
If you're not going to have kids, what do you care about paternity certainty?
It doesn't matter at all, because you don't have kids, right?
And the purpose of marriage also is to create a pair bond between parents uh parents, and then also a bond between parents and children, so that when the parents get old, I mean they'll take care of each other, and usually uh, you know, the way that it usually works is the husband dies first, and then there's a mother who lives on for another sort of five to seven years.
And she will not be able to provide for herself, and so there is a bond between parents and children so that the adult children take care of the elderly uh parents.
And that's another thing that is sort of important.
Now, in the past you needed this because you couldn't really store your wealth very well during the course of our evolution, right?
I mean, what do you store up a whole bunch of elk carcasses for when you get old, like they're just gonna get uh into the wild on you and get flies and rotten you won't be able to use them.
So now, sort of in the modern world, if you don't want to have kids, then you are gonna be responsible for needing you're gonna be responsible for finding some way that you're gonna be taken care of in your old age.
And of course the answer to that is, well, you have saved massive amounts of money by not having children, right?
A couple of hundred thousand bucks to raise a kid, so you're gonna save all that money and you're gonna invest it.
But of course, pe a lot of people spend it, and then they get old, and they don't have the two million dollars plus, which you can easily get.
I mean, you can easily get that money if you simply invest the money you would have spent on children, right?
You most people have kids in their sort of mid-late twenties, maybe early thirties, so you invest that quarter million over time, and you are uh totally fine when it comes to your retirement.
But of course, people blow that money, uh, they don't save it, and they don't have kids, and then nobody cares about them when they get old.
And they have no money, other than some sort of government pittance or whatever it is, which is, again, you know, somewhat survivable now, but sure as hell isn't going to be in the future.
So that's what it's for as well, is to provide some sort of security or resources in your old age.
And we're gonna need that.
Now, again, you can you can save your money, and then what?
I mean, the the way that it worked in the past is you would simply move in with your kids, you'd provide some fairly creaky child care in return for uh food and shelter as you aged out, right?
And uh so you get live in care, right?
Live and care, and again, usually you'd provide some sort of child care assistance, um, as as you're an old, particularly an old woman, right?
And so that's the way uh that works.
Now when you get old, uh if you want to pay for live in care for seven or eight years, well, that's gonna be a lot of money.
And you better have that all saved up.
And you can't pay people you cannot pay people to care for you in the way the family cares for you.
You just can't do it.
I mean I can pay someone to make a meal, but I can't make I can't pay for someone to make a meal with love and give me great conversation at dinner in the way that my wife does.
I can't do that, right?
So that's a secular case.
And again, it only really matters if you want to have kids.
The rest of it, I mean you're like a bike on the on the road.
It's not built for you, but it's no particular harm for you to use the road, right?
It's fine.
So the secular case is provision for children, paternity certainty, and provision into the old age and you know I mean of course there's we've evolved from all these general pleasures of children growing up and all of that, so hopefully that makes sense and I'd love to hear what you think free domain dot com slash donate if you find this stuff evaluable.
Alright, take care my friends.
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