Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - In Which I Am SHOCKED! CALL IN SHOW

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Oct. 14, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:29:59

In Which I Am SHOCKED! CALL IN SHOW

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	Uh okay, great.
	Nice to meet you.
	Look forward to the chat.
	And uh I'm all here.
	I guess your message was a little scant.
	If you want to just sort of tell me about what the issues are, we can take it from there.
	Um well, there's two things, or as I said there, maybe it's one thing.
	I don't know.
	Um the the more immediate pressing thing for me, which has been a problem for some time, is I have um I've been dealing with insomnia for a while now.
	And I remember you talking about uh uh you you mentioned a few times that you dealt with that and you know medical interventions didn't seem to be working, and you realized it was because you needed to rearrange your life, basically.
	Yeah, I mean, technically I didn't take any medical interventions, but uh I didn't take sleeping pills or anything, but uh yeah, certainly it was true that I needed to sort out my life, so go ahead.
	Um and the other thing um which it this makes me feel kind of foolish because I only kind of recognize this sometime in the past couple of years, and I'm in my mid-40s.
	Um I realized recently that like my parents didn't really didn't really give me any advice,
	any instruction about so many things, like you know, how to make friends, you know, how to deal with girls, you know, what how to how uh how you you know build a career.
	Um like I said, I'm I'm in my mid-40s and like when you're a little kid, like you don't have anyone to compare it to.
	So unless there's like obvious abuse, you're just like, I don't know, this is what families are.
	Um and so I and so like you know, looking back, I'm like, oh, that's what they were kind of supposed to do.
	And I'm looking at, you know, I have kids and I want to do better, but I don't know how to hand on what I didn't get, if that makes sense.
	Uh it does.
	Uh just tell me what you mean by you don't have anything to compare it to.
	Because I mean, there are other kids around with good social skills and in in the environment.
	Uh of course, I mean, we only really know our own parents, although there are other kids, of course, uh I don't know if you had relatives or spent much time around other kids' houses or parents, but there's a lot of stuff that's going on that gives you some sense of comparison, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, I guess it I guess I just maybe I just wasn't particularly observant.
	I just didn't really see enough of the inside of other people's lives to realize you know, like I said, it wasn't like it wasn't, you know, physical abuse.
	It wasn't like I'm not eating.
	It's just you know, I I don't have I I should, you know, I should be getting something here that's not there, and I didn't re I didn't realize like, oh, this is something they're supposed to be doing.
	Um so this is uh it's description rather than detail.
	So if you can tell me a little bit about your childhood and what did or didn't happen with your parents, uh I don't I just have your report on it rather than the facts if that makes sense, and uh so I'd like to know a bit more about what what actually happened.
	Um I guess like the the first thing I noticed was I the first thing that like struck me as like this this is a problem.
	I never really got like quote unquote the talk about sex from my dad.
	Um like I said, I have kids and my oldest is about that age, and other than the you know, simple physical facts, I don't know what that talk is supposed to look like.
	Um like I I was um I remember when I was you're kind of really struggling in your communication here, right?
	I I mean, it's like and uh I like this is like it's like we're we're pushing through hardening jello to get to get the conversation across.
	So how do you feel about talking about this kind of stuff?
	Thank you.
	I guess I'm I guess I'm scared and I just don't know I don't know where it's gonna go.
	And well, if you didn't know where it was gonna go, you'd be curious to explore it.
	I don't think that's an accurate statement.
	I I'm not obviously saying you're lying, but I don't think it's accurate, right?
	Like if you didn't know where it was going to go, then you wouldn't have you know, you'd have some curiosity, right?
	It's not that you don't know where it's gonna go.
	It's you're afraid that it's gonna go to something that would be highly negative your relationship with your parents.
	Yeah, I I think that's part of it.
	Okay.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	It's also it's also one thing complicating this is my mother died several a few years ago, and my dad is in his um early 80s, and he's he's not entirely himself anymore.
	Okay, so this is part of what I'm talking about, say my is he's in his early 80s, and he's not like there's this this pause.
	It's gonna be we can have a 19 hour conversation, right?
	And I'm I'm just curious what the pause is.
	Are you self-censoring?
	Uh do you not know how to talk uh in any kind of reasonably rapid pace, or what what do you think is going on?
	Because I can't imagine that you have these pauses in general, right?
	Because I mean you people around you would go slowly insane, right?
	I guess I'm just trying to find I'm trying to find the right words.
	I'm trying to So what do you mean by trying to find the right words?
	This is not an exam.
	You're not in court.
	I mean, if I'm just asking for the truth, how is the truth so delayed?
	So when people delay that much, my strong sense I could be wrong, obviously, right?
	But my strong sense is that they are trying to come up with words very carefully chosen that don't uh convey too too much, you know.
	It's it's and that's not the kind of conversation that I think we should be having, if that makes sense.
	Okay.
	Um I'm not trying to do that.
	Okay.
	Now said there's another thing.
	Did I accuse you of anything conscious?
	No.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	How long have you been listening to what I do?
	Uh about ten years, not like sometimes you know, sometimes in that more than others.
	So like not everyone.
	By definition, right?
	It's not like you have the exactly the same amount every day.
	Okay.
	So, how long ago was it that you began to think that your childhood might have been a problem?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Some parts of it, some parts of it for a while, and I really am I've really just come to put together like the complete lack of some things sometime pro I guess the past couple of years.
	And was there a particular moment or a particular show that you were listening to that you think gave you that sense that things might not be optimal?
	Um I don't know.
	I don't I I think for me part of it is looking at my own kids and like Realizing these are things I'm supposed to do for them.
	And then like I don't know, I don't have a model for that.
	I don't know what I'm supposed to do for them because I don't I never had it done.
	Well, no, that's causal, right?
	That's not causal.
	I mean, I did not have rationality and empathy and love modeled for me, but I did it with my daughter.
	So it's not it because you lacked something doesn't mean because you lacked something as a child in no way means that you then lack that thing as a father.
	In fact, it could compel you or impel you to go quite the opposite way.
	Right?
	If you're hungry, what do you do?
	Well, you you go and eat something.
	If you're thirsty, you go drink something.
	So if you're missing something, you you add, you go and get it, right?
	Yeah.
	So uh but you said uh I couldn't do it for my sons because it wasn't modeled for me, and that's just not that's not true.
	Uh otherwise I I would have no show.
	Like I wouldn't do shows.
	Okay.
	And and the fact that you think it's causal after listening to me for ten years and are trying to sell to me that it's causal is interesting, right?
	Because it's very much against everything that I talk about.
	It certainly is against free will and learning and and so on.
	So if ten years ago you began to listen to a guy who talks about uh rational objective and moral evaluations of your childhood, and none of this is critical.
	I don't mean this in any negative way.
	Um it's just an interesting phenomenon, but then I'm a free will guy.
	And one of the first things that it seems that you're trying to do is sell me a kind of determinism, which is what I couldn't possibly provide these things to my kids because they weren't provided to me as a child.
	Which is like saying, well, I can't buy my kids cell phones because there weren't cell phones around when I was a child.
	Well, it doesn't make much sense, does it?
	Yeah.
	I think again, none of this is critical.
	I mean, we might as well start at the deep end, right?
	What's the struggle here?
	I'm I'm trying to sound like you're giving birth to to something cactus shaped and sideways.
	I'm sorry, I'm just trying to think through like where how I like like you asked, how I came to look at look at this and realize this was a problem.
	Uh and I I don't I it seems like it kind of gradually surfaced in my mind.
	It wasn't like any one moment.
	It's just like I know I'm slowly putting together things and then like one day I look up and there's a whole picture.
	Um I don't I don't know any one instant in in any one instance where I'm like, oh this was this was not the way it should be.
	It's just you know, little things added up.
	Okay.
	So why do you think you had to do this alone?
	How long have you been married?
	Um We've been married uh sixteen years.
	Sixteen years, okay.
	Okay, so she knew you from your late twenties, early thirties?
	Uh late late twenties.
	Late twenties, okay.
	So did she never notice that anything was absent in you or missing from you or like I'm just I'm sort of curious why you why would you have to do this all alone?
	Um I guess we never I guess we didn't talk about I'm sorry, I'm not I'm not trying to be difficult.
	I'm just trying to think think through, and I I don't know.
	I guess we didn't talk about some of these things.
	Well, that's by definition, right?
	If I'm saying, well, why didn't your wife bring it up?
	In other words, why didn't she talk to you about these things and you say, well, I guess we never talked about these things, that's not adding anything to the conversation, right?
	Yeah.
	Why didn't you meet me on Thursday?
	Well, I because I didn't meet you on Thursday.
	Like that doesn't that doesn't answer anything.
	Um did your wife ever do you think that she's ever noticed that anything is missing with regards to your parents and family and so on?
	Or the same things missing from her parents and family, she's blind to it for that reason.
	I don't um for one thing, my parents live where I am now uh where we live is over a thousand miles from my parents.
	And so like it's either by phone or they would visit a couple times a year.
	And so she didn't actually see us interacting that much.
	Um you didn't talk to your parents much on the phone?
	I tried to I would try to call once a week or so.
	Uh okay, so you talked to your parents a lot on the phone.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And she didn't notice anything different about you before or after.
	Did she spend much time with your parents?
	Did you spend Christmases together?
	Did she know much about your childhood?
	I mean, the fact that they live a thousand miles away is not a massive impediment to her figuring out the things that were missing from your childhood.
	I mean, the fact that they live a thousand miles away is not a massive impediment to her.
	Thank you.
	If that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	Um I mean, did you tell her much about your childhood over the course of the last sixteen odd years?
	Different parts, yeah.
	Like how yeah, how some of how our family got along.
	Um, you know, she noticed she noticed things, you know, me and I have a sister, older sister, older brother.
	Um, she's noticed, you know, what a couple other people have pointed out that you know my parents tended to focus very much on my brother, and my sister and me were just kind of there a lot of the time.
	Ah, okay.
	So she did recognize that you were missing things from your parents as as a child.
	I think so, yeah.
	Sorry, what do you mean you think so?
	I thought I'm I was just confirming what you told me.
	Too much two makes four.
	So you're saying two and two makes four.
	I think so.
	It's like no, no, I need to get a little bit more exactitude because I thought you were saying that this is something that your wife did notice.
	Yeah, she noticed that element of the our relationship.
	Okay.
	And given that there was this favoritism regarding your sister and certain things that were absent for you and your brothers, did she ask any sort of further questions or try to sort of figure out what may have been missing for you as a child?
	Or what what else I guess?
	Not really, I don't think.
	I'm not sure what that's just a fog bank.
	I mean, if if you'd had those conversations, I'm sure you'd remember them.
	Yeah, I not not really conver a lot of conversations like that, no.
	Okay, so that's just more fog?
	Not really a lot of conversations.
	I don't know what that means.
	Does that mean you had fifty of them, but you were thinking maybe you wanted a hundred or five when you were thinking fifty?
	I don't know what that means.
	How many conversations did you have about with your wife where she was curious about your childhood and what may have been missing?
	Sorry to be such a dag.
	I apologize.
	You're trying to get information out.
	I'm not I'm not trying to be a difficult witness.
	I just don't I don't feel like I think No, the honest truth, honestly, that the truth is that you you don't remember any particular conversations about these things with your wife.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so she's shown a fair lack of curiosity about your childhood.
	Do you think I mean how much do you know about her childhood?
	Is this sort of a mutual uh inattentiveness, so to speak?
	Um I know her um for one thing, yeah, you know, her her uh mother lives very close and so I I see them interact.
	I know, you know, and her parents you know got divorced when she was when she was uh eighteen or twenty, and by that point she was relieved that they got divorced.
	And um I know something about like how she know an old older aunt or grandmother, you know, watched you know, watched her and her cousin while her parents were at work, and so it's um and the kind of inattentiveness that went with that.
	So she also had a neglected childhood that was relatively untrained, is that right?
	Like that she didn't get much feedback or proactive help with how to live?
	I think I think she got I think she got more in more in some ways than I did.
	Um I think she has a more of a relationship with her parents than I feel like I I do.
	So she got more uh sort of feedback and is closer to her parents than you are that you were with your mom and dad than that you are with your dad, is that right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So if you know ten is like really good uh and connected and getting good kinds of feedback in zero is colossal indifference to the fate of the children.
	Where would you rank you and your wife's childhood on that sort of one to ten scale?
	Um for me it would be three or four, I guess.
	I um got thirty or four you got thirty or forty percent of what parents should be providing to their children.
	Um I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
	Yeah, like I mean, our our physical needs were cared for, but like I I don't I don't feel like they're like, Well, no, you're physical, yeah, your physical needs could be cared for by kidnappers or prison or uh in in some godforsaken foster care, so to speak, right?
	So I'm I'm really sorry, my apologies, I wasn't clear.
	When I said 10 is close and connected and parents providing um support on how to live and so on, I'm really not just talking about the physical stuff.
	So just on the on that and I'm sorry, I was unclear.
	On that dimension of close connected parenting, caring about the children, teaching them how to live, uh as you say, how to make friends and uh uh how to negotiate and and all these kinds of things, right?
	So if ten is parents who do a really great job of that and zero is parents who do uh very little, if any, of that, where would you put yourself on that?
	So I don't want to puff up the stuff that's missing in your childhood with they gave me food and shelter, right?
	Because that's not the issue.
	So just on that dimension of uh being involved with your children and uh uh transferring wisdom to them, teaching them how to live uh and and giving them good feedback on how to make friends negotiate and and so on.
	Where would you put yourself and your wife on that scale of zero to ten?
	I would say for me that pushes it down onto three.
	Um it was three to four, now it's three.
	Yeah.
	So your parents gave you thirty percent of what you needed emotionally to succeed in life.
	Something like that, yeah.
	Well, I um th I'm I'm a little surprised, but but okay, that's that's fine.
	And where would you put your wife?
	Probably more like six, maybe seven.
	Okay, so she had more than twice the amount of emotional connectivity and mentorship and and training that you did, right?
	Yeah.
	At the same it's also kind of complicated because like I said, at the same time her parents divorced and did not have a did not have a you know entirely peaceful relationship.
	So that's that's that's that's that's in the realm of parental conflict.
	So that's different from what I'm talking about.
	Take Thank you.
	Because it's not a sliding scale.
	It's not like, well, the ten becomes a five, but you count it as a ten because the parents were divorcing.
	Uh whether you get the emotional training or feedback or connectivity or not, this is an absolute scale.
	Like if you both your parents got hit by a bus when you were six months old, from your parents it would be a zero.
	You wouldn't say it's a ten, but unfortunately they got hit by a bus.
	Right.
	So the fact that your wife's parents got divorced doesn't affect the scale at all.
	It still is judged by the same metric.
	Yeah.
	So you're three, they're six or seven, is that right?
	I think so, yeah.
	Okay.
	So with your three, to sort of help me understand that.
	So once you so three is is not bad.
	It's not great, obviously, but it's not terrible.
	So if, let's say you only got 30% training on how to make friends, that's not the worst start to things, and then you can often figure things out going forward from there.
	And so was it 30% in that you got, let's say, training.
	So give me a couple of things that you felt you'd mentioned at the beginning, uh, one was making friends.
	Uh tell me a couple of the others just so I make sure I'm addressing the right issues.
	Like how to, you know how to deal with girls.
	Um, you know, how to go out and you know get ready for you know a career and and life and a job and like what to how to how to plan these things and what to like you know, it's basically go to college.
	Okay, what do I do there?
	I don't know.
	You you could go to college.
	It's like go ahead.
	But what about uh money and handling money and so on?
	Could you give me a favor?
	Every time I ask you a question, you go as if it's really exasperating.
	If you could not do that, it's kind of a headwind that I have to fight, if that makes sense, because I really feel like I'm pushing you into these impatient corners of annoyance.
	So uh not again, not a big criticism, it's just a minor request uh from my part that every time I ask you something, you don't go, ah you know this kind of stuff.
	So uh what about did you get training on on money and finances and debt and borrowing and so on?
	Aaron Ross Powell Not a lot directly.
	I don't even think you noticed that you're doing it.
	Anyway, go on.
	I'm not trying, I'm sorry.
	Not not directly.
	They listened to they would listen to um No, no, no.
	I don't care what they listen to.
	From parents to you.
	It being in the environment, like uh you know they listen to to some podcast on on money, right?
	That's that's not the same.
	So from them to you, direct eye to eye training you and stuff.
	So did they do that with regards to money?
	Not much, no, not really.
	Not much, not really.
	So some.
	Is that in the 30%?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so almost a third of the time they would teach you about these things, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	That's pretty good.
	Okay.
	Uh one third money.
	Okay.
	Um dealing with girls, was it one out of three times, or was it uh uh almost zero?
	That one I think would be it would be almost zero.
	What about making friends?
	I don't really remember any advice from the case.
	Okay, so that's close to zero.
	Hang on.
	I'm sorry, I just want to run through this list.
	Um what about getting ready for a career?
	Like I said, it was go to college, and okay, what do I do once I'm there?
	Like what what should I study?
	Like where what I'm saying.
	No, I'm I'm aware of that.
	I'm just I'm asking, was it close to zero?
	I'm just trying to figure out where where the third is that you're coming up with.
	And I'm not disagreeing with you about the third.
	I just want to make sure I understand it.
	In other words, is it a they only gave you a third on We've got five topics here girls, friends, career, what to do at college and money.
	Money, you've got a third.
	Deal with girls zero, make friends zero, get ready for a career zero, and uh go to college to do do what at college and how do you handle you know choosing college.
	Was that a zero, or was that um they they did a third there as well?
	Aaron Ross Powell Not really a lot of clear advice.
	It's okay.
	I I I you have this urge to explain a bunch of things and give me a bunch of caveats, and I understand that they're caveats, right?
	So right now uh it's nowhere close to a three.
	That's why I was surprised.
	Because we've got five major topics.
	Only one of them did you get one third.
	There's no way that that's close to three.
	As a whole.
	Does that make sense to you?
	So you're saying I was it looks like I was rating too high?
	I'm not saying that.
	You're telling me that.
	Right.
	So let me let me give you an example, right?
	So we've got five things here.
	And if they had done a ten on all five things, like they really were involved, they really you know, whatever, right?
	Then then you'd be a ten in terms of parental involvement.
	Now, for them to get a three as a whole, they either some of these would have to be ten uh or six, but they can't all be zero except for one which is a three.
	There's no way that that doesn't translate to a three as a whole, right?
	Yeah.
	So if if you were a salesman and you had five customers you were going to call on, right?
	And I said, uh how many uh what was the average of your sales to these customers, and you said three.
	And then I said, well, did you sell anything to the first customer?
	Oh no.
	What about the second customer?
	No, third customer, no.
	Fourth customer, no.
	Fifth customer, yeah, I sold I sold that, right?
	I sold three things, right?
	Would that be reasonable to say uh out of these five things, the average that I sold was three, when you in fact only sold three to one out of five customers?
	No, that's not that's not correct.
	No, in fact, that's 1.5.
	Because it's very low, right?
	Yeah.
	Actually it would be even even less than that, right?
	So it's three out of fifty.
	Because each one of these being ten would add up to fifty, right?
	Yeah.
	But you got three out of fifty, not three out of ten.
	Three out of fifty is less than one, because five would be one out of fifty, right?
	Yeah.
	It's uh not great.
	And that's why I was kind of surprised at the three.
	Now, we could come up with other let's to be fair to your parents, though, were there other categories, because it's not like there are only these five categories.
	Are there other categories where they did more than zero?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	I I don't know how much you'll count this.
	I um I would say like the the best thing, you know, the best thing they did for me when I was a kid.
	Um and the reason I'm probably still going in any sense, like basically if if the church doors were open, we were in church.
	Um church services, youth group, and like you know, getting together with the the other teaching and the other kids there.
	I'm not gonna obviously I don't want to say that's not worth anything.
	Of course it is, but that's also not your parents doing that directly.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So the question is, did they talk to you in depth about religion and moral responsibilities and salvation and all these other kinds of good juicy, meaty topics, or did they mostly let other people do that for them?
	There was more there was more of that.
	There was yeah, we we did that as a family.
	Um, depending on you know, through the years, sometimes we did it more regularly than others, you know, and your kids get older and schedules get complicated, and so sometimes there's less.
	But we did we did talk about that and we didn't.
	Okay, and that's great.
	So what what did uh what sort of conversations did you have about that?
	Um I remember when I was when I was very young, we would have like uh I don't know how often we did it, but we would have like little um family studies, I guess you call it, and just you know, go over something from the bot like read something from the Bible and talk about it.
	But you were very little, right?
	Okay, so that's good.
	So with religion, can we give them a three, or would you like it higher or lower?
	given that it didn't last much beyond your younger years, right?
	Okay.
	I guess directly from them it would be four.
	Okay.
	Let's be fair.
	I want to be fair about that.
	Okay, so for uh religion.
	Okay.
	Good.
	Good.
	Okay.
	So now we're seven out of sixty.
	So we've broken a one.
	One one and change, right?
	I think part of the reason I'm I think part of the reason I'm moving so slow is I I kind of think I didn't want to look at how bad things were, if that makes sense.
	No, I get that.
	I get that.
	But I mean, and if you were 20, I would be delicate, but you're not.
	And you're a ten-year listener, so we can go fairly fast, right?
	Yeah.
	Now it's um I'm so sorry, go ahead.
	I was just gonna say, to give uh a specific example of the the kind of things missing, you know, when I was, you know, in high school a few times, there was a girl I liked, you know, at you at this point or that.
	And I don't think it ever really occurred to me to ask my parents for advice.
	Oh, but then when you liked a girl like what you might or should do.
	Yeah, and that's that's really not good that that just like it wasn't like I tried and they didn't want to talk, it just didn't occur to me, hey, this is something I should ask.
	Right.
	It didn't cross your mind.
	Right.
	Now uh sorry, is there something else you wanted to mention about that?
	Um again, another specific uh example to kind of fill in details a little bit.
	Um when I was in I remember when I was in sixth or seventh grade when I was in school, I was uh the the weird, annoying kid.
	Um and one of my friends who was an actual friend and he wasn't just trying to be mean here, but yeah, he said, you know, he said I remember he said to me one time, like, you know, the reason a lot of kids don't like you is your parents never really taught you how to get along with other kids.
	Um and I didn't really know what to do with that at the time.
	And I just I just remembered it.
	Okay, and what do you think was missing in your interactions with kids or present that they didn't like?
	There's SI again.
	I'm sorry, I I I guess it's I just when I'm thinking when I'm pausing to think about something like that.
	No, a sigh is very specific.
	SI is a sign of resistance.
	Thank you.
	I I'm pretty good at reading people's cues.
	Anyway, I just ask you to keep an eye on it.
	Um so um but but go ahead.
	Uh so yeah, what do you think was an issue with your relationship with kids?
	I don't I mean like I said, I was the weird annoying kid.
	I didn't I I don't know I don't know what the specifics were.
	Other people it's very hard to get facts out of you.
	So when you say I don't know what the specifics were, I don't know what that means.
	Does that mean you know what the general things were?
	Because I didn't ask for specifics.
	I have to keep circling you back to figure out what the hell you're talking about.
	I'm just pointing this out, right?
	You probably don't get this kind of uh direct or blunt feedback.
	But it's i your your language is extremely foggy and confusing, and it's hard to know what the heck you're talking about.
	So when you say, well, I don't know anything specific, it's like, am I supposed to ask now if you know something general?
	What's the difference between specific and general?
	Why are you saying I don't know anything specific when I didn't ask for specifics?
	I am in fact asking for general principles as a whole.
	So I it's hard to know what you're talking about, and I don't think that's accidental.
	I'm not saying it's conscious, but I don't think it's accidental.
	I I just know I was considered weird and annoying by most of the other kids.
	What was annoying about you?
	You've had 40 years, almost 40 years to figure it out, right?
	And you got the feedback from your friend.
	You've listened to my show for a long time.
	What do you think, in general, was annoying about you?
	I guess one part of it was I would um my tendency to like, you know, pick apart things people said and you know, uh I don't know if I I don't know if you'll catch this,
	but like the uh, you know, there's kind of the joke someone says, well, actually and like, you know, analyze something instead of taking taking what they said in a reasonable sense.
	I think there was some of that.
	I guess Can you think of any examples or is that just a general principle that you think of?
	There's that sigh again.
	I'm I'm sorry, I'm not trying.
	No, I want you to try to not do it.
	Just be conscious.
	Just be conscious.
	Be in the conversation.
	And, you know, if you you said you would try to, so genuinely try to.
	Be conscious of it, that's all.
	Because the sigh is hiding something.
	It allows you to keep an emotional distance, which is kind of what we're trying to solve here.
	So what were the general things?
	Uh oh, sorry, what were the now specific, right?
	What were specific things that you will actually and foldora wearing kind of kind of did.
	I remember, and this was something someone who didn't like me much said at another point, but in in the same general vein.
	Um they had said, you know, well, are you gonna do, you know, are you are you gonna do track next year or something like that?
	Because I was running.
	And I said something like, you know, oh, unless my legs fall off, or something to that effect.
	And he said, Well, that that's the kind of thing that people really get frustrated.
	It's a Well, it's annoying.
	Yeah, that's really annoying.
	So why do you think you would do something like that?
	Because you're still doing a bit, right?
	I guess it was partly look at how smart I am.
	Well, but it doesn't make I mean it doesn't make you look smart.
	So why was it important for you that people think you were smart?
	Thank you.
	Because I didn't have a lot of other things to point to.
	I I didn't have Yeah, I wasn't like there were not a lot of other things I could you know say this was like, hey, this is why I'm worthwhile.
	Okay.
	And why do you think there were things as a whole that you didn't feel worthwhile?
	Okay.
	And why do you think there were things as a whole?
	I don't know.
	I I'm sorry, I'm I'm trying.
	I think Well, let me ask you this.
	Did your parents indicate that they took pleasure in your company.
	Not just as a sort of bucket for religious instruction, but they enjoyed your company, they found you interesting or funny or uh engaging or thoughtful or you know, something around.
	Taking pleasure in your company.
	Did they did your parents seek you out and and so on?
	I know I spent a good deal of time pretty much by myself reading a lot when I was a kid.
	Um I I remember um I actually just listened to it the other day.
	Um you talking about uh Robin Williams several years ago, and you you talked about you know m uh what you called me plus.
	Mm-hmm.
	And I think you know, looking at the way I the way I am today, and you know, trying to the ways I try to, you know, get attention, make people laugh.
	I think that's some of it.
	I think that describes me somewhat.
	Mm-hmm.
	I think that's a good thing.
	Do you remember my question?
	Didn't I I'm not trying to be a gotcha, I just don't want to repeat it if you do.
	Did my parents show that they were interested in me, wanted me around.
	I mean, it's it's sort of a um it's a bit of a joke in my household.
	If my wife is busy, I'm like gloming onto my daughter for something fun to do, and you know, I I enjoy both of their companies.
	Um and and so it's it's kind of like a joke, but I always want my daughter to know how much I enjoy her company.
	Because I do.
	is like super fun I I guess I'd have to say no, because I like I said, a a lot of a lot of my you know time as a kid was just you know, hey, I'll I'll be here reading, you know, by myself.
	And also, like I said, you know, my you know, my brother, my older brother tended to have you know priority most of the time.
	Sorry, was your older brother or your older sister?
	Uh older brother.
	Okay, my apologies.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So can you think of a time that your uh mother or father or both uh were like, hey, let's go do something, or I miss you, or I've thought of this fun thing that we could do together, or something like that.
	Yeah, we would we would get together like all of us for like uh you know, game nights or or um like we'd play uh you know card games or things like that.
	Um and so we would when we were when all of us all of us as a family, we would do things like that uh a fair bit.
	Ah, okay.
	Got it.
	So uh that's in general.
	Um that's fun thing, but was it you?
	Did was it you as an individual rather than we're all playing uh this this game?
	I don't I don't think so.
	I don't think that's something that happened a lot.
	Okay.
	See again, this is just fog, man.
	Why, why, why?
	Do you think that you're communicating anything other than confusion?
	When you say, I don't think that happened a lot.
	Am I supposed to know what a lot means to you?
	I'm just just in general, like I'm I'm trying to understand your perception of what I'm what I need in the conversation.
	I guess what I'm trying I guess.
	Don't guess.
	See, all of this hedging language.
	I guess maybe a little perhaps somewhat i it's it's giving you an out.
	It's it's defensive language.
	It's it's what it's what would be if I was a hostile judge or or a cross examining lawyer, like you know, this old thing from the West Wing, um where the lawyer's giving advice and he says, What uh do you have the time?
	And he says, Yeah, it's it's three o'clock.
	He says, No, no, that's not how you answer a lawyer.
	The lawyer says, Do you have the time?
	You say, Yes.
	But you don't volunteer anything more.
	So you are reacting to me as if I am a hostile cross-examining judge or lawyer who has the power to throw you in jail if you say something wrong.
	And so you are constantly using imprecise, so fustigating language, if that makes sense.
	And again, this is not a criticism.
	I'm just sort of pointing it out.
	I don't think it was zero.
	But it wasn't a major feature of it wasn't something that hasn't all.
	Do you think that it wasn't a major feature tells me anything?
	I don't know what that phrase means.
	So you're saying it's somewhere between zero and infinity.
	It wasn't zero, but it wasn't a major feature.
	So it's somewhere between zero and a whole heck of a lot, but less than that.
	Did you see, like, I have no idea what to do with that.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, I'm not sure.
	And again, I'm just pointing it out, right?
	So how many times do you remember your parents seeking out your company and wanting to spend time with you because they enjoy your presence?
	Not as part of a general board game or UNO game or something, but specific to you.
	Thank you.
	And this is not a cross-examination.
	I'm just curious.
	I'm not trying to catch you or get you or anything like that.
	I can't.
	I can't right now call to mind a specific instance.
	So to your memory, it's zero.
	So.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	So why is that hard to say?
	And again, I'm not criticizing.
	I'm just curious.
	Because I don't.
	I feel like I'm attacking them.
	And I don't feel like that's a thing I should do.
	You feel like you're attacking them by being honest.
	I feel like there must be...
	I'm not trying to be dishonest, but I feel like there's something I should be telling you that I just can't get at right now.
	There should be a positive here somewhere, but...
	No, no, you've you've given hang on.
	You see, you've given me two positive money and religion, a three and a four.
	Not great, but it's definitely more positive than the rest of the zeros, right?
	Yeah.
	So it's a little confusing even from that standpoint because you have given me some positives, right?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	I'm scared I guess it's that I'm scared that I'm I'm scared that I'm lying through a mission somehow,
	that there's there's these great things that I can't call to mind That I I I should be I should be telling you about, and I'm you know painting this horrible picture and I'm not being fair to them.
	Okay, so there's some emotion, and tell me more about what you mean.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I don't I don't want them to be awful.
	You don't want them to be awful.
	I don't want I don't want to say they're they're horrible and 'cause they're my mom and dad.
	Is this a religious thing, like honor their mother and their father, or where do you think it's coming from?
	Well, I mean, for one thing, I'm half her and half him.
	If they're awful, then I guess I am.
	Why is that true?
	Do you think that I'm awful because my parents were awful?
	Well...
	I'm sorry.
	I'm not that's not a challenging question.
	I'm just curious about the logic of your thinking.
	I mean, but like there.
	I mean, it's it's definitely true in some sense.
	Like I'm I'm half him and half her.
	No, no, no, you didn't answer my question.
	Don't ignore it.
	It's kind of rude, right?
	I mean, you can tell me I'm not going to answer your question, but to to go on as if I hadn't said anything, it's a little rude, right?
	I don't know, I don't think.
	I don't think you're you're awful.
	I think I d I guess just you know, your parents are a part of you, even if you've even if you've gotten even if you've had to overcome their problems.
	Your parents are a part of you even if you had to overcome their problems.
	Okay.
	I think I think I understand that.
	But why does that mean that if your parents are deficient that you're deficient?
	Or if your parents have weaknesses or things that they did wrong that or if your parents are, as you say, horrible, that you're horrible.
	And I'm just I'm not even disagreeing with you.
	I just want to understand your reasoning.
	I don't think I've thought that through that much.
	It just seems like a it just kind of seems like an obvious.
	It just seems like a axiom, I guess you could say it seems like something that's just there.
	It's well, I I could understand it if you were fresh off the turnip truck, but you've been listening to me for ten years.
	And I assume that you think that I have some positive and moral things to say.
	But that would only be true if I was moral, and you certainly know that my parents weren't.
	So that's what I don't quite understand.
	Is it just for you?
	Is this rule just for you or is it for others as well?
	Is this rule just for you or is it for others?
	I think I think it's that I see I can see reflected in me some of the reflected in my actions some of the same things from my parents and I don't know how to change that.
	I don't know how to change directions.
	No, no, that's that's a whole different thing, though.
	That's a very that's a whole different topic.
	You're saying I can't criticize my parents because they're part of me.
	And if they're terrible, I'm terrible.
	And now I could have been a better father.
	That's a whole different topic, right?
	Thank you.
	If you don't if you don't manage to change direction then You are just the same thing, I guess is is what I'm is what I is where that's kind of where that is in my head.
	Well, but that's the very much the opposite, right?
	So if you say I can't criticize my parents, and then you say, well, it's only bad if you don't change direction, but you can't change direction without criticizing your parents, right?
	Yeah.
	It's like saying, well, uh, I I want to make sure that I don't end up in the wrong direction.
	So the way I do that is never question whether I'm going in the wrong direction.
	So and again, you would have heard I'm sure a whole bunch of calling shows and this and that and the other.
	So that's not the answer.
	And again, sorry to be an egg, but that's not the answer as to why you won't criticize your parents.
	Thank you.
	And again, I say this with great sympathy.
	Thank you.
	I mean, I can tell you why you don't want to criticize your parents if you want.
	I'm scared to, and I don't really understand.
	But that's the that's the that's the what.
	That's not the why.
	The what is that you're scared of criticizing your parents.
	The question is the why.
	Why are you scared of criticizing your parents?
	I don't know.
	I've said as much as I know how to say about it.
	Would you like the answer?
	Okay.
	Sorry, is that a yes or a no?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	See, again, this is precision in language.
	Um it gives you an oddly feminine aspect.
	I don't mean to say that you're feminine, but I mean this not answering things directly is is a kind of feminine thing.
	It's actually kind of a slave morality, which we can sort of get into in a sec.
	And I I say this again with great sympathy, and it's not like I'm always direct, but um so the reason you can't criticize your parents is you've got you don't have a strong enough bond with them.
	And so you you uh are held hostage by your lack of a bond because you don't have a strong bond, and therefore all criticisms feel like they might just abandon you.
	In other words, you don't know if your parents will still take care of you if you were to, in fact, criticize them, that they would simply withdraw and you can't afford to criticize them because you need them for your survival, but the bond isn't strong enough to handle criticism.
	Like I don't want to step across a bidge or bridge over a chasm if it's kind of half rotten, and I don't think it's gonna make it.
	I mean, I'm I'm happy to walk across a bridge that's made of concrete.
	But not one that's half rotten and it's fallen off and rope and it's made of rope and things like that.
	Like I'm not gonna cross that bridge.
	Because it's not secure enough.
	And your bond is not secure enough to uh criticize your parents.
	You're terrified of criticizing your parents because if they aren't particularly attached to you and you criticize them, they might just tell you to F off and leave you behind.
	I mean, that would be your instincts, right?
	I mean, I'm not saying they would do that in reality, but as we evolved, criticism grows out of a strong bond.
	And your parents did not welcome criticism, like I'm I'm I asked my daughter on a pretty regular basis, is there anything I can do better or different?
	Because parenting, as you know, is constantly changing.
	I can't parent her like she was still five or ten or even last year.
	So I need to adapt based upon uh her needs, right?
	And so uh I'm constantly asking, I mean, I ask my audience all the time, what do you want me to talk about?
	How can I serve you better?
	And I ask my wife, how can I be a better husband?
	And and so like what can I do that's different or better, or how am I doing?
	That kind of stuff, right?
	So I'm constantly inviting feedback because I want people to experience their interactions with me as as positive as as possible, if that makes sense.
	And I I'm not sort of trying to pat myself on the back here.
	I'm just trying to give you an example of what it means to have a strong bond.
	My daughter can criticize me robustly and give me strong feedback, and that's that's a good thing.
	That's that's what I that's what I want, because the last thing I'd want is for her to bite her tongue and be unhappy.
	Right?
	And and not tell me something that I need to know.
	Does does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	So it it's a terror of death, really.
	That is the issue.
	You know, if if if you're a prisoner, uh you're you're unjustly imprisoned in some horrible gulag and the guard says to you, I I don't care whether you live or die, are you gonna criticize the guard?
	Not much, no.
	Okay.
	Are you back to not much?
	No, seriously, man.
	Like what are you doing?
	This is annoying.
	You just got would you criticize the guard?
	Seriously.
	No, you fucking die.
	You would not criticize the guard.
	Can we at least agree on that?
	If he says I don't care whether you live or die and you're responsible, he's responsible for bringing you your food, will you criticize the guard, yes or no?
	No, I'd keep my mouth shut.
	You would keep your mouth shut.
	And if some other prisoner tried to get you to criticize the guard, what would you say?
	I'd rather not talk about that.
	Right.
	This is why you use fogging language.
	Because you don't know if you're being trapped if the guard is actually secretly inform is the if the other prisoner is going to inform on you to the guard to get special treatment.
	So you can't say, No, I love the guard, because then the prisoner will think you're a lunatic and will look badly upon you and might, I don't know, get mad at you and and I don't know, shank you in the mess hall or something.
	And you can't say, I hate that guard, because then he might so you can't say anything, which is where all your foggy language comes from.
	And I say this again with great sympathy, if that makes sense.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, and I'm like I said, I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to change direction.
	I'm trying to, you know, do I want to do better going forward?
	I want to have more going forward, but I think I want to have more going forward.
	Do you more?
	But do you see that you're still I'm talking about your vague and foggy language?
	And what do you immediately do?
	I want to have You go you go to vague, you're not answering my question.
	What do you immediately do?
	Talk in ways that don't communicate anything.
	Vague and foggy language, right?
	It's driving people.
	This is why listen, I'm not saying that the people are right in terms of how they handled it as a child.
	But this is why when you were a kid, and maybe this happens as an adult too, this is why people find you irritating.
	Now, please tell I'm not saying I'm not saying at all that the essence of you was irritating or you're foundationally irritating.
	And I can tell you why immature people can't communicate what's going on.
	Why I mean do you have this as an adult?
	Do you find that it's difficult to keep people's attention without the me plus making them laugh and so on, or do you find that people sometimes withdraw or are less uh seeking out your company and so on?
	I don't have to I'm sorry, I'm trying to uh Okay, let me ask you this.
	And I know that sounds like challenging.
	How many I'm just just curious, how many close friends do you have that you get together with regularly and talk about life and thoughts and feelings and th you know arguments and I don't know, politics.
	I mean people that you communicate with on a regular basis who you would consider close friends.
	I'd say three.
	That is fantastic.
	So that's that's very good.
	I mean, in your forties, especially as a parent, right?
	And so how often do you get together with these uh Is it men?
	I assume it's men.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And how often do you get together?
	Or how often do you have conversations with these men?
	Or how often do you have conversations with these men?
	I'd say once or twice a month.
	Um it's been there's scheduling.
	You know, you have kids and are busy with the children.
	Okay.
	Have you talked to these friends about your insomnia or about your hesitation about criticizing your parents or you know, other things that we're talking about, you know, within the first hour of chatting?
	Um I've talked about my my sleep problems.
	And they've heard plenty about that.
	Um have they given you any particular thoughts as to why this might be occurring?
	They've They've tried to offer advice.
	Have you tried this thing?
	Have you tried that thing?
	No, no, but that's just like valerium root or whatever.
	That's just practical stuff.
	What about um something that's something that might be going on that would be troubling your soul or something like that?
	Not like uh hey, have you tried melatonin?
	Right.
	Not not analyzing things like that, no.
	Okay.
	Uh do they know about your parents' indifference to you as a child?
	It's not something I've really talked with um about it.
	Okay.
	So what what is the deepest subject that you've talked about your friends with?
	Honestly, the I feel like maybe I'm uh I'm I've cheating here.
	Maybe I'm including something that doesn't really fit.
	We I we um we get together and do um uh record discussions about different poems and where and not just about the poem, but about like all the ideas that go into it and stuff like that.
	That's that's great, but that's not personal, right?
	That's about the point.
	Yeah, not a lot of personal.
	Okay, so what is the deepest topic that you've talked about that is personal?
	No.
	Thank you.
	Like I said, the sleep problems and I'm worried about how things are going with my kids.
	Oh, okay.
	So are they parents as well, these guys?
	Um one of one of them has been a parent for a while.
	One of them just had uh kid.
	Uh pretty.
	So with regards to worried being worried about how things are going with your kids, um, what sort of advice are you uh getting back from your friends, or in particular your friend who's been a parent for a while?
	Not not a lot of direct advice.
	It's kind of the general.
	It's kind of a hang on rolling.
	Hang on, hang on.
	What are you faking about?
	What are you faking about?
	How am I supposed to know what you mean by not a lot of direct advice?
	What does a lot mean?
	What does not a lot mean?
	And what the living hell is the difference between direct and indirect advice?
	Right?
	So you understand we're back into fog language.
	I don't know what you're talking about, and you don't seem to know that I don't know what you're talking about.
	Right after I've given you like three annoying speeches on being being direct.
	Do you see what I mean?
	Like you have this habit of just fogging.
	And not communicating anything.
	And then you tell me, well, I'm really close to my friends, but if you were close to your friends, your friends would have say, would have told you, I don't know what you're talking about half the time because you use all of this fogging language that does completely ill-defined.
	And again, this is not a big nago criticism.
	I'm just pointing out a truth.
	What does it mean to say he hasn't given me a lot of direct feedback or direct advice?
	What is the difference between direct and indirect advice?
	I'm just don't I don't know what that means.
	Is that mimed?
	I don't do it.
	Does he paint politics style?
	I don't know what that means.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	What I was gonna say is it it's more supportive.
	Like you can you're you're doing okay.
	You know, they're gonna be all right.
	You know, you're not so not there's no advice.
	No, that's not advice.
	Not really.
	That's a rejection of wanting to hear about the problem.
	Thank you.
	I mean, that's like that's like the gym teacher who, you know, your bone is sticking out your leg and he's like, walk it off, you'll be fine.
	It's like, I really won't be.
	It's like, I really won't be.
	And we'll we'll get to the issues with the kids, right?
	But I'll tell you why I think people don't want to give you direct uh advice.
	That's just brushing that's just brushing you off, honestly.
	I'll be frank with you, right?
	I'll just say it's brushing you off.
	Oh, you'll be fine.
	Ah, don't worry about it.
	It's like, no, that's that's I mean, I'm I'm I'm having some real trouble here.
	Like, can you imagine people call me up and my entire call-in show is like, eh, don't worry about it, you'll be fine.
	You're good.
	You're okay.
	Like, can you imagine?
	I mean, who would listen to that?
	That wouldn't be anything insightful or helpful, would it?
	Yeah.
	So the reason why I think people get annoyed, and I'm again, I'm not saying you're annoying in any foundational sense.
	I'm just saying that why people might have um uh avoidance of your your considerable depths, right?
	So all the pluses that you have as a person is because you treat everyone, I assume, or you're certainly treating me, as if I'm an abuser.
	Right?
	So if I treated everyone as if they were a hostile prosecuting attorney who had the power to throw my ass in jail for 20 years, right?
	If I treated everyone like that, who would want to chat with me?
	Thank you.
	Keep the matter safe distance.
	Well, uh it would be I would be pretty stressed talking to people because they everyone could throw me in jail like a prosecuting attorney.
	And people wouldn't want to talk with me.
	Because I'm treating them as if they're a highly dangerous and toxic person with huge power over me.
	Did you see what I mean?
	Yeah.
	I mean, there's an old story about talking to I don't know, like the feds or the FBI or something like that.
	So again, this is not legal advice.
	This is just something I've heard, right?
	Which is uh so what they'll do is they'll say uh when did this happen?
	Uh oh, March the twelfth last year, right?
	And then they'll wait for a day or two or a couple of hours, and then they'll say, when did this happen?
	And if you say March 15th, because you kind of freaked out, or you say March twelfth two years ago or something, right?
	Then you've told them two different things, right?
	And then they'll say, well, one of these is a lie, and lying to law enforcement uh is is a is an offense, right?
	So lawyers will advise often, and this is again just my amateur understanding, I'm not trying to give any legal advice, but lawyers will say, and you'll see this when people get interviewed.
	But say, when did this happen again?
	They'll say, I refer you to my previous answer.
	Because you're in a very dangerous situation.
	And what do lawyers always tell their clients with regards to the police?
	Don't talk.
	Shut up.
	Right.
	If you have to take out uh a cross-stitching railway spike and stitch your mouth shut, shut up.
	Because the police are way better at interrogating than you are at being interrogated, because they've done it for 20 years and hopefully this is your first time.
	So they just say, shut up, don't say anything.
	Don't say anything.
	Now, you can't If somebody asks you a question, you can't just say, I plead the fifth, or I refer you to my previous answer, or you're gonna have to go through my lawyer.
	You have to actually communicate, but you can't say anything.
	Because you couldn't say anything to your parents.
	You had criticisms of your parents, you were upset with your parents, you wanted to be closer to your parents, but they rejected you.
	And like I'm sorry to put it so bluntly, but they did.
	Like, I'm not starving people in the world that I don't feed unless I lock someone in my basement and then I sure as hell am starving them.
	Because they're reliant upon me for food and they can't get it anywhere else.
	What's the same thing with love for children, right?
	As a child, you need desperately need your parents' love and care and attention, and you want to know that they enjoy your company and that they appreciate your existence and that they take delight in your thoughts and feelings and want to know more about who you are, and right?
	Because you can't get it anywhere else.
	You could only get it from your parents.
	So you were angry to some degree with your parents and also terrified because if they saw your anger, they might completely reject you and leave you behind.
	And that's why you can't criticize your parents.
	Now the problem is because you haven't gotten to the point of just robustly criticizing your parents, also known as just being honest, thou shalt not bear false witness.
	Am I right?
	So because of that, you treat everyone like they're your parents.
	Which is why there's all this foggy language that you can't ever be caught on that doesn't communicate anything.
	It's uh a filibuster, it's baffled cap.
	They call it vamping, you know, like if someone's supposed to be on the air on your radio station, but they're a few minutes late, you just have to say stuff because you can't have dead air, right?
	So because you treat everyone like you're cold withholding uninvolved parents, people get offended.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Like if I treated everyone, if I treated every woman like she was my mother, oh God, God help me, right?
	If I treated everyone every woman like she was my mother, would a quality, healthy, happy, moral woman want to spend time with me?
	She probably has other options, so no.
	She probably has other options, so no.
	Just no.
	It's just you just be robust.
	Just know.
	Of course she wouldn't.
	Now she might say, gee, I really sympathize or whatever, right?
	But you know, if every time she went to scratch her eyebrow, I dove under the couch and said you're gonna beat me, would that be a little tiring and annoying for her?
	Like, I'm not gonna beat you.
	Did you see what I mean?
	Yeah.
	If I had a a male friend and every time he went to the bathroom, I clung onto his leg saying, You're gonna leave just like daddy did, would that be a little tiring for him after a while?
	Pretty quickly, yes.
	Yeah, because he'd be like, bro, I'm not your dad.
	Like, go talk to your...
	That's not me, right?
	Right.
	Thank you.
	So if you treat people like they're your cold, controlling, withholding parents.
	And we'll get into why the fog language occurs in specifically with your parents.
	But if you treat people like they're your parents, in other words, you have the same avoidant defensiveness and fogging that you had to have as a survival mechanism with your parents.
	If you treat everyone like they're your parents, people will find that annoying after a while.
	Because they're not.
	I mean, can you imagine if every conversation like if every conversation I had was like conversations that I had with hostile reporters from the mainstream media back in the day?
	Can you imagine?
	People would be a little annoyed after a while, right?
	Because they're not hostile reporters from the mainstream media from back in the day, right?
	Okay, so what happened when you were a kid?
	What happened if you made a mistake?
	I don't know.
	Were you punished?
	How were you punished?
	What happened when you made a mistake?
	or did something that your parents strongly disapproved of?
	I...
	I'm trying I'm trying to come up with a specific instance um so that I'm not just uh giving these general ideas.
	Um Well, hang on.
	Were you spanked?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Hang on.
	Were you spanked open or closed hand?
	you Um open.
	Okay.
	It was it on the rear end?
	Was it anywhere else on your body?
	Was it clothes on or bare skin?
	Uh rear end, clothes on.
	Was it painful?
	Uh I would expect so.
	That's the point.
	You were there.
	Sometimes hitting is just shocking.
	It's surprising, but it's not like I can't walk.
	Or I can't sit down.
	It wasn't it was never to that it was never to that degree.
	So it wasn't particularly painful, is that right?
	No, it wasn't.
	Didn't leave bruises, didn't uh you could sit down and so on, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, not not not that kind.
	Okay.
	And who would administer the spanking?
	Uh that would that would be dad.
	And did you always know, or generally always know?
	Sorry, generally always know it's a bit of an oxymoron.
	Did you mostly know why you were being spanked?
	Was it explained to you ahead of time?
	Yes.
	You didn't know what you're doing.
	Uh warnings uh beforehand.
	In other words, like this was this was your if you do that again, this is what's gonna happen?
	Yeah.
	I'm not sure.
	I I don't You don't remember any I I don't it wasn't a regul it it give me a second.
	It's um the number of times I was spanked as a kid is I could count I could count on two hands, maybe one.
	It wasn't it wasn't like once a year.
	It wasn't frequent.
	Maybe that.
	Okay.
	Maybe less.
	Okay.
	And how else were you punished if you were doing something your parents disapproved of strongly?
	Thank you.
	And by the way, goes to your parents for relying on for relying on spanking so rarely, but sorry, go ahead.
	Um, go to your room, you and you don't have such and such a thing for such and such amount of time.
	Yeah, like no TV, no computer or whatever, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Okay.
	Uh and were you ever yelled at that you could recall?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so what would happen there?
	And and would it be mother or father or both?
	Um dad and just upset about something and yelling.
	I think it was more I think it was more yelling in general rather than like directed specifically at me, if that makes sense.
	Like it wasn't like he was angry and he was yelling, but it wasn't necessarily like goddamn it rather than you stupid kid.
	Yeah, uh more like that.
	Okay.
	And uh what about your mother?
	Did she raise her voice or um do any corporal punishment?
	Dad, like I said, Dad did spanking.
	Um I think with her with her, it was more like you know, I'm so I'm so disappointed in you.
	I'm so like it like, you know, this this hurts so much.
	Oh, she was like martyr mom.
	Kind of, yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be a good idea.
	No, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	So how often would your mother get disappointed?
	Would she lecture you or just be sad and how much you've hurt her by whatever?
	Thank you.
	That would like that kind of thing would be.
	I don't know, probably a couple times a year.
	Like it was like it wasn't like a constant.
	Okay, so that's very fair.
	I mean, how and how often would your dad yell?
	Uh I don't know.
	I'm I'm sorry, I don't know.
	You must have some idea.
	I mean, once a year, once a month, once every six months, once a week.
	just roughly.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Once a month, maybe more.
	Okay.
	And did either of your parents ever call you names?
	Or characterize you in some general negative way, like selfish or thoughtless or careless or uh the second part.
	Like not call me names, but probably like you you don't think about You don't think about other people or things like that, yeah.
	And that was a fairly absolute statement, like you don't think about other people was something that they said as a general statement about you?
	Or you know, in this particular instance you could have thought about other people more, or you forgot this time to or was it just in general or as a sort of personality characteristics you don't think about other people?
	More a more a general statement kind of thing.
	Okay.
	And was that ever sorted out?
	Did they ever say, well, I'm really glad that you're thinking about other people more?
	I think that's fixed.
	Or was that more constant?
	No, it was never really resolved, never.
	Do you think that your mother went to her grave thinking that you, her son, was going through his life not thinking about other people?
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, to what did they ascribe this selfishness as they would call it, this this narcissism or whatever they would say that you just only think of yourself, you don't think of other people.
	Where would they think this came from?
	Or did they have a theory?
	Why was it like the devil?
	Was it like where no, I'm not kidding, right?
	where would they think this personality trait that's pretty monstrous where would they come from for them?
	Thank you.
	They never said give me uh they never attached that to any specific cause, so I don't know.
	Okay.
	Do you think it was selfish for your parents to withhold affection from you and not seek out your company and make you feel loved and treasured?
	Yeah.
	So that would be projection then on their part, right?
	They're not thinking about you and what's best for you as a child in terms of love and affection and devotion and all of that.
	Uh they're thinking about their own particular needs, which is to not express that kind of stuff.
	To not get into topics which might hurt.
	I'm sorry.
	To not get into discussions that might hurt or be uncomfortable.
	Sorry, I'm not sure where you're going from what I said, and I'm sorry if I I just missed a bridge here, if you can fill me in.
	Um it's not a criticism, I'm just trying to understand where you got to.
	Uh just that like if you know why do you feel that way?
	sorry, why does you feel what way?
	If they address to me, why do you feel that way?
	Where's the thing?
	Why do you feel what way?
	Why do you feel what way?
	What are you talking about?
	If I was you know sad or lonely.
	Okay, hang on.
	So this is why I don't get the leap.
	So I was talking about they should have provided you sort of love and care and affection, right?
	But they were only thinking about their own needs and preferences, which was to not provide those things for whatever reason, right?
	So that would have diminished a lot of your sadness and loneliness, right?
	Yeah.
	So that's why if they had been attentive and affectionate to you as a child, then you would not have felt lonely and you wouldn't have felt like you had to say quote clever things like I'll do track and field next year if my legs don't fall off, because you wouldn't feel like you didn't have anything to offer.
	Because if we don't feel like we have anything to offer our parents, it's pretty hard to feel like we have anything to offer strangers, right?
	Yeah.
	So if they had been affectionate with you, they wouldn't be all of the sadness and loneliness.
	I mean, there may be occasional times when you're sad or whatever, but they wouldn't be all the sadness and loneliness to deal with.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, I guess what I was what I was trying to say is like they didn't want to have they didn't want to have conversations that would they didn't want to get into conversations where it would where they would have to look at where where is this like why do you feel this way?
	Where is this coming from?
	Because it was like I feel distant from you, mom and you dad, and I I don't feel loved, and like that would be difficult for them, right?
	Yeah, that's what I was saying.
	Okay, okay, got it.
	So so after they were already cold, they didn't want to ask questions that might make them upset, which is selfish on their part, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it, got it.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So I wanted to mention with regards, you said that that money was a three, religion was a four in terms of like out of ten communicating something of value, right?
	Unfortunately, and tragically, really, the fact that your parents have a four in religion makes it absolutely inexcusable that they get zeros anywhere else.
	Because what does the Bible say is the foundational responsibility of parents?
	To train up children in the way they should go.
	That's right.
	To train up children in the way they should go.
	Do you believe that parents should be motivated and express be motivated by and express love towards their children?
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	I mean, did Jesus love sinners?
	Yes.
	Jesus loved prostitutes.
	Jesus loved the diseased.
	Jesus even forgave the people who were nailing him to a cross and sticking a spear through his side.
	Jesus is love to a large degree, right?
	And if there is hatred, it is only hatred of the devil, and even though you may hate the sin, you love the sinner, right?
	Yeah.
	So if a child is selfish, whose fault is that?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I'm not saying you were selfish.
	I'm just saying if a child in theory, in general, is selfish.
	And roughly what sort of age do you first remember hearing that you never thought of other people?
	Thank you.
	I'm not sure.
	I it just was I was trying to come up with the example of the kind of thing and that like I No, that's the first one, because that's a big one.
	That's defining you as a narcissist.
	That sounds like a kind of a kind of thing I would hear from them, but I don't know when.
	I I don't know when it's not.
	But there wasn't a time when I said, I love how thoughtful you are towards other people, and then later they said you only think of yourself.
	So I assume it was pretty early, or there wasn't something that you got worse from.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So if a child is selfish, whose fault is death?
	Well you say, Oh, but children are definitely selfish.
	Okay, well let's say that's true.
	Whose fault?
	Whose job is it to teach them how to not be selfish?
	Parents.
	Right.
	If a child is given some horrible swear word in place of the word tree and they point at a forest at the age of four and say, my gosh, that's a whole lot of horrible swear words.
	Whose fault is that?
	Whoever he heard the word from Yeah, whoever taught him that the word for tree is horrible swear word.
	Is it the child's fault?
	No.
	Of course not.
	Because parents train up the children how to be in life.
	And so if your parents weren't religious, I could personally forgive them a lot more the string of zeros they had in the other areas, right?
	The friendships, the education, the the college stuff, the how to talk to girls and dating and right.
	But because they were religious, they were continually exposed to the fact that the parents must show love to their children and train them in great detail and depth on how to be in the world to be virtuous, right?
	So they have no excuse.
	And for a parent, is there anywhere in the Bible where it says if your children behave badly, you have no responsibility for that as a parent?
	It's not there, I don't think.
	No, it's not.
	Because it would be a complete contradiction to it's the parents' responsibility to train up the children in the ways of the world.
	So unfortunately, because the highest thing that your parents scored on was that you have to love and train your children, and they neither loved nor trained you.
	That makes it infinitely worse.
	to be clear.
	Did you just that make sense?
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	I'm sorry, this I'm not this hurts.
	I know, I know.
	It hurts to look at and think about.
	I get that, and I'm I'm sorry that it hurts, but it's better than insomnia.
	The insomnia is there because you're replicating some of your parents'behavior, right?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	It could be.
	Well, i if you haven't criticized your parents, you're doing what they do.
	That's why we criticize.
	That's why we go through the pain of criticizing our parents so we can change our behavior.
	If I never doubt the direction if I can never criticize the direction I'm driving in, can I ever turn around?
	No, because you don't know if you're going the wrong way, or you won't say I'm not criticizing the direction I'm going in.
	I can't possibly turn around.
	All right.
	So none of this quite adds up to enough of this foggy language.
	So tell me a little bit about your older brother and why he got so much of your parents' attention, because I bet you there's something in that fills the gap to me in your response versus the stimuli.
	He one thing for me one thing for me in specific, not with my sister, but um I ha they had my brother and then my sister is two years younger, and then I was five years after that.
	Um and I was unexpected.
	Um I was surprised.
	Um sorry, how do you know that?
	Uh because they said they you know told me I was a surprise.
	But why sorry, why on earth would they say that you were unexpected, unplanned, and a surprise, which is another way of saying they didn't want you.
	Like and why on earth would you tell a child that I don't know.
	I have kind of I have been I have been upset with them about telling me that part for a while.
	I I didn't realize that.
	No, don't don't laugh.
	Don't laugh.
	Don't laugh.
	Enough bottlene shows to know that you're not supposed to laugh, right?
	When this really wanted you, but you came along anyway.
	We never planned for you, right?
	Or or did they refer to you as a happy accident and we were thrilled you came along.
	They they said the they said things like that, yeah.
	It's just it I've I've told my friends you know, like if you ever have a kid who's you know not kids who are you know planned and kids who aren't, like never tell them.
	Like don't there's there's nothing that information doesn't do them any good.
	Oh, it's not gonna come where it's good.
	It's it's pure harm.
	Because it's telling the kid we didn't want you.
	Also, I didn't some not something that affected me as a kid because I didn't know this.
	But like for some reason my sister was going through like we were looking at some of the old papers and stuff, and my sister was looking at like the the record when I was born, and like she was like, Well, I don't I don't see I don't know what this charge here is.
	Like, here's like birth and delivery, and then there's this thing, and then it wasn't it wasn't Nick, was it and it's like, oh, I think they she had her tubes tied.
	Oh, tubes tied, okay.
	Oh gosh.
	So they really didn't want another, okay.
	Yeah, and I I didn't know that when I was a kid or anything.
	That was only fairly recently, but that just kind of adds to the whole thing.
	Why are we laughing again?
	Awful.
	Like you were trying to invite me into this is kind of genial comedy shit.
	Because otherwise I'm a little afraid I might be crying.
	And what's wrong with crying?
	Thou shalt not bear false witness.
	Did I get that quote wrong?
	Laughing about something that's very sad is bearing false witness.
	is kind of a scent, if you don't mind me saying so.
	you Thank you.
	So what was going on with your brother that he took so much of your parents' attention?
	He's I remember when I was a kid, he's mostly outgrown this.
	But he was allergic to everything.
	And like today that's relative that's not that hard to figure out.
	But like you at in the you know, 70s and 80s, trying to get trying to you know get food for a kid who couldn't have regular bread and couldn't have eggs and couldn't have this,
	like that like trying to trying to attend to that kind of thing would consume a lot of attention and then that you know, he was the oldest, and then by the time the to the uh the you know,
	my sister and by the time I got there, like trying to work around this kind of thing took a lot of attention, I would guess.
	Um I think he also I think there were also some kind of developmental issues they were worried about.
	I don't know specifics about that.
	But I think he had he had issues that they were that focused a lot of attention on him, And it just kind of Sorry to the sorry to just to be clear.
	So the food allergies, there was stuff he could eat, right?
	Yeah.
	So it wasn't like they had no idea what was going on.
	I'm just kind of guessing at how this pattern came out.
	No, no, I'm just please listen to what I'm saying.
	Please listen to what I'm saying.
	Or what I'm asking.
	So they had a pretty good idea what was going on.
	I mean, what was some of the stuff that he could eat as a kid?
	There were lots of things I could.
	I guess the thing is like the things like eggs, he was allergic to eggs and those are in a lot of things.
	And yeah, he was allergic to regular bread.
	I understand that.
	I understand that.
	You already told me.
	I mean, not about the eggs.
	But there was stuff he could eat, right?
	Yeah.
	So they just give him that.
	Yeah.
	So uh help me understand I mean I get that they have to make some separate food, which I understand is a is is a challenge, but you know, you can just throw a pot of whatever he can eat, I don't know, brown rice and beef or whatever, like bone broth, whoever, right?
	So you just throw a whole vat of that stuff together, you put it sort of cook it all up on a Sunday night, and then you've hopefully you've got enough for most of the week, and then you just have regular meals for everyone else.
	So I'm not saying it's unimportant, but it wasn't like he had, you know, crippling seizures and they had no idea what the cause was, and he was biting his tongue half off.
	Like it's like, okay.
	So he can only eat X, Y, and Z. How is that so time consuming?
	And I'm so I'm I'm probably missing something, so just uh help me out.
	I don't know.
	I I was just I've tried I this is just m uh trying to figure out myself, like why were they so focused on him?
	I asked why your brother consumed so much attention, and you said because he had allergies.
	And I my daughter doesn't really have any allergies, so I don't understand that world too much, so I'm trying to figure out why that was so time consuming.
	Because that's why you told me it was time consuming, right?
	So I'm just trying to understand why you told me it was time consuming because I don't understand the world of allergies very much.
	So uh maybe I'm missing something obvious about why it was so time consuming.
	I guess just that they were very worried about his health and worrying about like him getting the wrong thing.
	Like we were at I think one time my Oh, like if he shares a kid's school lunch or something, right?
	Yeah, and so like you have to have to, you know, put up these you know, special little barriers around him metaphorically speaking.
	Yeah, you tell him you can't share kids' food.
	Yeah.
	No no no trades, right?
	And like one I you know, one time, you know, mom had made when he was very small, uh I was told that you know mom had made herself some eggs and like you know, he went and he he, you know, you know, got up and got plate from the counter and was, you know, shoveling, you know, mouthfuls in them and then you know, broke out in hives for like you know, two days after that.
	And so his allergy effect was hives.
	I don't know if that was it.
	I I think that's but hang on, you just told me hives.
	What do you mean you don't know that was it?
	I wasn't there.
	I don't know if that was all.
	I I just remember that was what they said uh because you know, some people uh can be killed by bee stinks, right?
	Their throats closes up and if they don't get their epi pen or whatever, right?
	So was he in mortal danger from food?
	And I don't see this sarcastically.
	I mean, some people are I don't know how bad it was.
	I don't know whether it was the kind of thing that might that might have killed him.
	They never I never didn't have an epi pen.
	No, I don't even know if that was a thing then.
	I guess it probably wasn't.
	Okay.
	Let me uh you know what?
	Let me just look that up because I I don't want to be unjust, obviously.
	Why wasn't he assigned to antibiotics in the 17th century, right?
	I get it.
	Okay.
	Let me just ask our good old friend Dr. Grok.
	Come on, give me my mouse.
	You can do it.
	Alright.
	I can I have big monitor, so I never know where the hell the mouse is.
	Alright.
	Let's find out.
	Again, I want to be as fair as uh as possible.
	Okay.
	So Grok.
	Uh when were EpiPens introduced?
	Now, of course, we don't know.
	Just because they were introduced doesn't mean that they were uh common back in the den.
	Oh no, that's fair.
	Uh EpiPens introduced in 1987.
	That he would have outgrown it would have outgrown.
	Okay.
	That's that's fair.
	So I appreciate I'm glad that we looked that up.
	I thought it was earlier, but uh that's another reason why we look things up, right?
	I want to be fair.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So he had uh allergies.
	Um you don't know how bad they were.
	One thing that was reported was hives.
	And of course, hives aren't fun, but as far as I understand it, they're not exactly fatal.
	And at what age do you know did he outgrow these things?
	Um probably by the time he was a teenager.
	Oh, so he was in his twenties by then.
	No, by the time he was a teenager.
	Oh, he was a teenager.
	Sorry.
	I thought you said I was a teenager.
	Okay, my apologies.
	All right.
	So teenager is again very imprecise, 13 to 19.
	Roughly when probably by the time he was 13.
	Oh, so by the time he was 13 and you were like eight, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So for your first eight years, there were these uh allergy issues with your brother.
	Um what else?
	Do you think might have distracted your parents from Did they both work?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And do you know who took care of you when you were a baby?
	Was did your mom stay home with you?
	Aaron Ross Powell I'm not sure how long my mom had off for me when we were a baby.
	Well, no, actually hang on.
	She had off as much time as she wanted.
	She's not a slave.
	Well, the other thing, right at the time shortly before I was born, like that month, my dad got uh laid off from his job.
	Right.
	And so they would have been like scrambling.
	Uh well, no, my parents.
	Your parents are intelligent, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So that's why you have you saved your money.
	For for these kinds of emergencies, right?
	Plus, if you get laid off, was this um you know it's in a western country, right?
	It wasn't in like Timbuktu or Ghana, all right.
	So if you get laid off, normally you get quite a bit of salary, right?
	Months, sometimes even more.
	Like six months or like you get you get quite a bit of pay when you're laid off.
	So you'd have savings, you'd have pay, and so I'm not saying that it's not alarming or anything like that, but they they would have had savings and your father would have had a pay, and then of course there's an employment insurance, there's uh lots of things that can help.
	So it doesn't necessarily mean that your mother immediately has to go back to work or very soon after you're born.
	Because then you have to pay for child.
	Well, I guess would would your father have did your father take care of you if your mom went back to work fairly soon?
	Aaron Ross Powell I'm not really sure.
	I don't know.
	Do you know how long sorry do you know how long your mother did stay home with you?
	I don't know.
	Okay.
	But do you have memories of her staying home?
	Or do you who who took care of you then when like who who was your first memory of of caregivers or or people who took care of you other than your parents, if it was people other than your parents?
	Um there was uh a friend of the family um uh we called her aunt blank.
	Um and she wasn't actually my aunt, I later found out.
	But yeah, for a friend of the family who watched all of us when we were little kids.
	Uh like all three of you, or that was like a neighborhood daycare.
	Um It was it was the three of us.
	It wasn't uh it wasn't a general daycare.
	It was not uh Okay, and so it was it was person it was more personal than that.
	And do you know at what age she was taking care of you or like photos or anything like that that they may have given you some clues?
	I do not know.
	Okay.
	So uh do you have any early memories of your mother being home during the day?
	I mean, I guess you wouldn't know what day of the week it was if you're so young, so it could be a weekend or something, but okay, so um what's the closest you remember feeling to your mother or your father?
	I remember my mom would sometimes uh read to me before bed.
	Uh and I was I can't have been uh I'm trying I I I remember the place this happened, and I'm trying to place that chronologically because we moved a few times.
	Um I would have had to have been like eight or ten, and I remember that, and I remember that mattering to me.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	It's kinda old.
	I don't know.
	I I'm I'm trying to think of the eight.
	Yeah.
	That's not a criticism.
	I'm just uh not a criticism, I'm just a bit surprised.
	It does sound old.
	That's why I was not sure.
	I or or just been just sitting down with me before bed and praying with me or something like that.
	Okay.
	Now, did you ever have a conversation with your parents about deficiencies that you felt they might have had as parents?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	A little bit, yeah.
	I told I'm sorry, that's more vague.
	Um I remember one time being probably early late teens, early twenties, and you know being mad at my dad and telling him like, you know, you never you never told me this stuff about you know sex or anything like that.
	We never we never talked about that.
	Like you tried, but you were horribly awkward, and I you know, I'd been through sex ed in school, and so I just like uh that's I you know they told us they told us all this stuff, and you just left it.
	And I remember I told him I was that I was mad and I felt I I was missing something.
	And how old were you when that happened?
	How old was I when I said when I said that?
	Mm-hmm.
	The when I told him I was mad about it, or when he tried and it didn't go anywhere.
	No, sorry, when you talked to him about it.
	Late teens, early twenties.
	Okay.
	And what happened out of that?
	Thank you.
	I think he gave some excuse about why it didn't really why it didn't really happen.
	And you know.
	And he felt bad about it, but didn't really explain.
	So he fogged.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so that's maybe where you get your arguing stuff from to some degree as well.
	If that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	Like you don't quite know what happened, but nothing really got sorted, right?
	Yeah, it it didn't I didn't have any kind of satisfactory resolution.
	I can I can say that.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Now, what do you think might be going on with your own kids that might be troubling you?
	Um Both me and my wife work.
	And I'm not happy with that.
	And how long did you know how?
	Uh 13, uh seven, and two.
	Wow.
	You guys gotta spread.
	Okay.
	Didn't try it.
	Uh and uh, but yeah, that's how we no, we don't want to we don't want to hint at accidents.
	Okay.
	Um so your youngest son is two, and who takes uh sorry, is it his son?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And who takes care of your son?
	Uh his grandmother, my wife's mother.
	Uh, okay.
	And um how is she with your son?
	Did do you guys agree on parenting as a whole?
	Um frustrated with it.
	I'm not I'm not happy with it, but I don't feel like we have better options.
	And what are you not happy about?
	Um she's can't get around much.
	Um she can't um Oh, she's got mobility issues and she's parenting a two-year-old boy.
	Yeah.
	Yikes.
	Yeah.
	I assume he's a clamber monkey like all boys are at that age.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And so one consequence of that is that his his older his thirteen-year-old brother is enforcing a lot of that, which he's frustrated about.
	Enforcing a lot of what?
	Like he's having to chase his younger brother around.
	Uh because she can't.
	Sorry, but when is he is oh after school, but before you and your wife come home?
	Oh, they're um they they're they're home.
	They're homeschooled.
	Oh, homeschooled?
	Okay, got it, got it, got it.
	Okay.
	Oh, so so some of the sort of chasing after stuff is happening for your son, like your eldest son.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	He's having to I I I know he's kind of frustrated with that.
	Okay.
	And uh why do you both work?
	Hang on, how can you be homeschooled if you both work?
	Is your so your grandmother is not only parenting, but homeschooling too?
	Um we have him we have him work on assignments and then we're we check on them, you know, basically in the evenings.
	Sorry, did I get this right?
	13, 7 and 2?
	Yeah.
	So are they teaching themselves?
	Um the program we have, it has like video lessons.
	So they're not being homeschooled, they're being computer schooled.
	Yeah.
	Okay, that's not the same thing, is it?
	Thank you.
	I mean, they're on computers, right?
	Yeah.
	So they don't actually I mean, it's just video.
	It's not even a person.
	Yeah.
	Is that what you want for homeschooling?
	No, I just I don't know.
	Well, why doesn't your wife stay home at home school?
	She makes more than I do.
	Why don't you stay home and homeschool?
	Why don't you stay home and homeschool?
	I mean, how okay, how are they getting and I'm this is I know it's a big common thing with homeschooling.
	So how are they getting their social life?
	Um when we have them visit with you know friends of ours, uh who the you know, my one of my friends who has kids, um, when we can um and you know, goes both ways, they'll come over here sometimes.
	We'll go over there.
	It's not it's not as often as it shouldn't be.
	Okay, so we're back to Farkland again, right?
	It's not as often as it could be.
	What does that mean?
	What does that mean?
	It would be great if we could do that.
	Like, how often?
	I'm going to go to the next episode.
	Thank you.
	Once a month or so.
	So you kids are getting socializing.
	Do they roam the neighborhood?
	Do they I mean do they play with other kids in the neighborhood or or where are they getting the socializing?
	Kind of not.
	They're like Bruh.
	Bro, what are you doing?
	What are you doing?
	Come on.
	That's not right.
	I know.
	Well, I don't know that you know.
	Honestly.
	What do you what do you know?
	Tell me, tell me what you mean by I know.
	I know this isn't.
	Don't say it's not ideal.
	It's not that's not that's not honest.
	I know this isn't what they need.
	I don't know how to reshape our life.
	Like I don't know.
	I don't know how to I don't know how cut out.
	Hey, don't listen, you're a smart guy, right?
	Yeah.
	Don't go rubber bones on me and don't try and pull this crap with me.
	Honestly.
	If somebody offered you ten million dollars, payable in six months for you to find better ways to homeschool your kids.
	Are you saying, no, I'm sorry, I gotta walk away from the ten million dollars, man?
	Because it's just I can't f I can't figure it out.
	Like if somebody said to me, Steph, I'll give you ten million dollars.
	If you can win uh a gold medal at the Olympics in gymnastics, I would have to say you're gonna have to keep your ten million dollars, because that's never gonna happen, right?
	So when you say, Well, I don't know, and I'm rubber bones, it's like that's not true at all.
	You know exactly what to do.
	Right?
	Someone needs to stay home and raise these children.
	And it's not gonna be a frickin' screen.
	Is that a fair way to put it?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All of our ancestors figured out how to survive the black death, the plague, the war, the famine, terrible weather, marauders, war, right?
	Slaughteress, rapes, god knows what, right?
	Your ancestors got through the civil war, first world war, second world war.
	And you're saying, well, I can't possibly figure out how to actually raise my children.
	Come on, man.
	Don't don't go rubber bones on me.
	That's just not true.
	Say you don't want to.
	But don't say you can't.
	We're the second richest generation in human history.
	And you're saying nobody can stay home but the three children you voluntarily chose to have and keep?
	Come on.
	Like, I don't even know why people try this stuff with me.
	I don't know.
	And I I almost respect you for trying, if that makes sense.
	But it's nonsense.
	It's nonsense.
	It's nonsense.
	Tell me the practical steps you could take to stay home with.
	Because it's not just about staying home and teaching your children so they're not stuck on screens all day.
	But and especially because there's an age gap, it's considerable age gap.
	They don't even play with each other that much, right?
	Yeah.
	So they're isolated.
	And what did you tell me about your childhood?
	In my room.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	You're up in your room reading and isolated, right?
	Yeah.
	How dare you re-inflict this isolation on your children?
	You know exactly how tough it is.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	So what are the practical things that you could do to solve this?
	Because being home is not just about teaching them.
	It's about setting up a community, getting to know the neighbors, about making sure that they have social life.
	Which, I mean, and this is your your teenager is absolutely gonna need this.
	Like beyond oxygen.
	Teenagers need peers.
	Am I right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So what do you what could you do to facilitate this?
	to make this happen.
	Thank you.
	Your wife makes more than you.
	Remind me why you can't stay home.
	Thank you.
	Just tell me.
	I feel like in terms of money, we're just treading water as it is.
	Okay, come on, man.
	How many cars do you have?
	Two.
	Okay.
	Do you necessarily need two cars if one of you is staying home?
	If something happens to one of the kids, we'd need to be able to take them somewhere.
	Yeah, that's what Ubras for.
	That's what ambulances are for.
	I get all of that, but it's not absolutely necessary.
	I grew up with no no car in the household, not even one.
	So that's possible, right?
	Do you live in a house?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	What's your square footage?
	I don't know off top of my head.
	How many bedrooms?
	Uh three bedrooms.
	Okay.
	How much property?
	Uh less than an acre.
	I don't know.
	Are you in the city, the suburbs, or the country?
	Country.
	Okay.
	And do you own the house?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So you can sell the house, you can move to a smaller place, and you'll have more than enough money to stay home.
	And you get rid of a car.
	I mean, I'm just saying these are possibilities.
	Say, oh my God, we can't do that.
	It's like, bro, our ancestors lived in frickin' mud huts, okay.
	And you're a Christian, right?
	Yes.
	Are you supposed to choose money over what's best for your children?
	Is that the way of Jesus and the Lord?
	No.
	So what would Jesus tell you?
	I mean, don't listen to me.
	What would Jesus tell you to do?
	What would Jesus tell you to do?
	He commands you to sell everything you own, give the money to the poor and follow him.
	He's not even asking for that.
	He's not even asking for that.
	Sorry, I interrupted you.
	What would you just say?
	Absolutely.
	Are you supposed to place material stuff over what's best for your children?
	Thank you.
	I guess the other the other concern with the other thing that worries me about that is like where we are.
	Yeah, the general region.
	Like if you live in a poor neighborhood, like there's not really poor and safe.
	No, but there's small town.
	Yeah.
	I'm just just spitballing here, right?
	Okay, give me a rough sense of your you don't have to give me exact figures, but roughly what's your combined income?
	Um I think a little over a hundred thousand.
	Okay.
	So she makes like sixty, you make like forty, is it that kind of thing, or seventy thirty or uh more like yeah, seventy thirty.
	Uh okay, so you in your thirty sorry in your forties you make thirty thousand dollars a year full time.
	That's the other thing, like we're did you answer my question?
	I'm not full time.
	I that's and that's uh like I I try to stay.
	I So hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Your kids are being raised by computers and a geriatric grandmother for the sake of thirty K a year?
	Are you kidding me?
	How many hours a week do you work?
	Uh depending on the time of year.
	Uh maybe thirty hours, something like that.
	You may you make less than twenty bucks an hour.
	Yeah.
	Because I Because I'm trying to like if I were to I'm trying What are you doing as a man in your forties, your mid forties with three kids making thirty K a year?
	Like, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to follow this.
	Because I'm trying to...
	Thank you.
	Give what time like I to advance in terms of like, you know, money and position, I would have to put more time in the world.
	No, no, hang on, hang on, but why do you have so few skills after a quarter century or more in the workforce that you're pulling in less than twenty bucks an hour?
	I mean have you made more in the past?
	I mean I'm just trying to follow this you you Thank you.
	Do you pay the grandmother anything?
	No.
	She she's staying with us.
	So that's Well, yeah, but she's also a primary caregiver to three active children.
	Do you think she should get paid?
	Thank you.
	How old is she?
	Um, okay.
	It's not not too bad.
	I thought she might be eighty or something.
	I don't know, right?
	No.
	But she's uh not able to do much.
	No.
	Is she ill?
	Arthritis, back problems, like what are we talking here?
	Yeah, she's she's uh like uh she's she can't she can't walk, like she can walk, but not like she can't, you know, run around or things and or can't be a little bit more than a little bit of a chance.
	So she has significant mobility issues.
	Yes.
	Is it do you think that's the right thing to do?
	It's to kind of rope her into trying to take care of your kids when she has significant mobility issues.
	Yes.
	Thank you.
	It seems a little exploitive.
	It seems a little bit different.
	We started when when we started this along, it was when we started this you know, kind of general plan, she was in better condition and just trying to.
	What does that have to do with anything?
	Of course she was in better condition.
	People age, you gotta make decisions based upon ill health and mobility issues.
	Is she in pain?
	Is she in pain?
	When she moves around, is it uncomfortable?
	Yeah, somewhat.
	Okay, so she's kinda half crippled, and I'm sorry to say it so bluntly, she's kinda half crippled in pain, and she's in charge of three incredibly uh are they all three boys?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So she's in charge of three energetic and active boys, and she's in constant pain and has significant mobility issues, and they're being raised by screens and barely see any friends.
	Bro.
	The hell are you doing?
	Come on.
	This is not right.
	I know.
	Okay, for how long have you known?
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	For how long have you known that this is not right?
	For how long have you known that this is not right?
	Months, years.
	Okay, how many years?
	At what point did you first begin to suspect that this might not be the ideal way for your children to be experiencing life?
	you you you you you you Thank you.
	Okay, and we've been talking for a long time, so if you're gonna give me these endless pauses, it's not gonna work.
	I guess uh at least four or five years.
	So half a decade you've known that this is not ideal.
	You brought another child into the mix, knowing that you're wife's mother was not doing well.
	So for half a decade you've known that this is not the way to raise your children.
	So why are you calling now?
	Oh, because it's affecting you, not just your kids.
	Because you've got insomnia.
	So now it's about you.
	It wasn't enough that it's affecting your kids negatively, which I would imagine it is.
	But now because it's affecting you, you're calling.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	What about your wife?
	Does she have any concerns with the setup you've got going with your kids and her mother?
	Yeah.
	And for how long has she had concerns?
	Thank you.
	Probably about as long.
	Okay.
	So why have you guys done nothing about it?
	Thank you.
	What about your wife's mother?
	Has she expressed any concern about being in chronic pain, having mobility issues, and being in charge of a couple of kids half glued to the screen all day?
	I assume the answer is no.
	What about your kids?
	Have they expressed any dissatisfaction and wanted anything different?
	The oldest one, yeah.
	And what does he say?
	He doesn't he doesn't like it when both his mother and I have to be at work because he says he's well, he's obviously he's the primary caregiver in many ways, because he's the mobile one, right?
	And he says it's lonely.
	Right.
	Both of us are away.
	And how long has he been talking about that for?
	Thank you.
	In those terms.
	Maybe a year or so.
	Okay.
	So for you and your wife have been very concerned about this for half a decade, your son has been complaining about it for a year.
	So why didn't you call before?
	Just because it didn't affect you in the way that the insomnia is closer in children?
	not as close as i want to be okay that's not an answer i did not like i want to be now That's still not an answer.
	Okay.
	Zero to ten.
	Let's do the scale again.
	Zero to ten.
	Ten being you're real close to kids, you enjoy each other's company, you get along famously, blah blah blah.
	They have an open line of communication with you, they can say anything they need to you and all of that.
	And you're there, they know that you put their welfare first and foremost, and we do just about anything to help make them happy and so on, right?
	That's a ten.
	A zero is indeed you know, because it was your parents' indifference regarding your questions about girls and so on.
	Where would you put yourself on zero to ten with regards to your children?
	And uh I would suggest being blunt about this.
	Because they may hear this something, right?
	Three, maybe worse.
	Okay.
	So what's your final answer?
	Thank you.
	Three.
	Okay.
	So you give yourself a three.
	So you're much better than your parents overall, right?
	Because they were zero zero zero zero three four.
	And you're three across the board, which is much better.
	They came out to one and change you're coming out almost three times better than they were, right?
	And I just want to make sure I understand your scale.
	I might have to move it down to two.
	That's what I thought.
	Okay.
	Uh what about your wife?
	Okay, no, let's how would you pay how would your kids rate their closeness to you and their feeling that you put their needs first and foremost and that you dedicate your life to making them happy and in reasonable ways?
	Where would they put you on zero to ten two, three, somewhere in there?
	Okay.
	Right.
	Has that been fairly constant over the course of their childhoods, especially your oldest, or has that been better or worse at times in the past?
	Thank you.
	There w I feel like sometime in the past couple of years in the past year or two.
	I don't know what changed, but I feel like he and I have started getting along better.
	Okay.
	I don't know I can't point to a specific thing.
	But I just one moment.
	So hang on.
	So right now it's a two, but in the past, with your eldest it was slower, like a zero or a one.
	Because you're getting along better now.
	I don't know.
	Thank you.
	It seemed like it seemed like for a long time we just are you like all we ever did was argue with each other.
	And what did you argue about?
	Thank you.
	You know, listen, you know, you need to do this thing.
	You need to know you need to, you know, clean your room, you need to work on the street.
	Oh, so he should he should do the right thing.
	But you're not doing the right thing, and neither is your wife.
	He should make sacrifices for the family, which neither you and your wife are particularly doing.
	Because you need your $100,000 a year, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	So he was acting like you and your wife were, and that pissed you off.
	So you nagged at him rather than looking in the mirror and say, What am I doing that I could improve so I can model better behavior for my son?
	You just nagged the shit out of him, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	You're modeling selfish behavior.
	And then you wonder why your son is not motivated to sacrifice for the family, right?
	Right.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So why didn't you change it over the last half decade?
	And you're gonna have to engage in the conversation, these pauses and huh, yeah, right?
	It's not gonna cut it, right?
	Why haven't you acted over the last half decade, you and your wife, to fix this?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I guess I just don't see.
	Like I don't feel like I don't feel like we're okay.
	Stop at the pauses, man.
	Jesus.
	I'm begging you.
	No, you're just censoring.
	You're just censoring.
	Why haven't you fixed it? 'Cause I don't like we're not we're not spending like we're not trying to be rich.
	We're not then sent them to school.
	We're not then sent them to school.
	Is school better than screens?
	And a half crippled caregiver who's in constant pain.
	That's what I don't understand.
	Let's say for some magical fiery reason there's a giant moat between you or your wife staying home.
	Okay, fine.
	I don't believe it, but let's just say that that's true.
	then why aren't they in school?
	Well, I'm not sure.
	Thank you.
	They have he was in school for a little while.
	The oldest was and he had um he had uh autism diagnosis and he was like the school he was in he was in their kindergarten and they had like twenty.
	Is he autistic?
	Some, yes.
	Okay, and how does his autism manifest?
	Um it's not as bad now, but just he Okay, how does it manifest now?
	And why are you arguing with an autistic kid?
	And shouldn't he get some more specialized help if he's autistic rather than be home with screens all day?
	is that good?
	I'm not an expert, but is that good for autism?
	Um...
	Thank you.
	I don't...
	I mean, what does a specialist say is best for him?
	I don't know.
	He had um he had like uh he had speech therapy um from the school work.
	Why does the therap what does the specialist say is best for him as a whole?
	I mean, uh I won't get into any particular details, but uh I I certainly know someone whose autistic kid is in pretty specialized educational situations.
	So what does the specialist say is best for your son?
	And do you have an autistic kid who's in charge of the other kids to a significant degree to the point where he's complaining about being in charge of the other kids?
	Is the autistic kid the best babysitter?
	I don't understand any of this.
	I don't understand any of this.
	What do you guys I uh what does the expert say?
	You've you've taken you he got diagnosed with autism, and I assume that they came up with some sort of plan to help him, right?
	Yeah, yes.
	Okay, and what was that plan?
	Just roughly.
	I mean, he was he was in school with other kids, and it it just uh I get that.
	But there is plans.
	Let's say for some reason he couldn't deal with the other kids, right?
	Is it was that is that what you're trying to tell me?
	They yeah, it we were we were really unhappy with how that was going 'cause he was it was him in a class of like twenty-five kindergartners, and there was one teacher and like one part-time teacher's aid, and it just five Yeah.
	That was when we pulled him out.
	Okay, so he hasn't been to school for eight years.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Have you taken him to a specialist to ask what is best for him?
	This is a yes or no question.
	Not since no.
	Okay, so for eight years, he's been untreated, and there's been no particularly you haven't taken to any specialist to get a plan about how to best help him with his autism, right?
	Yeah.
	So both you and your wife, does this seem like a good idea to you?
	Thank you.
	Okay, I mean that's sort of a rhetorical question.
	I don't know what your pause is there.
	Does this seem like a good idea?
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Okay, uh if you don't want to talk, we don't have to talk.
	I'm not sure if you're even still with me.
	Are you with me?
	Oh, did he go?
	He left.
	Oh, that's a shame.
	Well, I suppose I'll just record my uh thoughts.
	I suppose he disconnected.
	Um perhaps his phone ran out of power.
	That certainly happened before.
	But I'm obviously I've been doing this for a long time.
	I'm I'm kind of shocked.
	And I'm obviously no expert in this, so all of this should be taken with no seriousness whatsoever.
	It's just my usual amateur idiot opinion.
	But this does not seem like the right course of action to me.
	Certainly I think that the um young man, if he uh needs to see a specialist, needs to get evaluated, needs to get some sort of plan.
	Um I would assume that being at home with screens uh all day is not particularly great.
	So but again, what do I know?
	But I think it would be a good thing to get a plan going.
	And I think that that's where the insomnia is.
	I never really got the answer as to why um he didn't and his wife didn't act uh over the last half decade that they felt this was not great for their kids.
	I don't know the answer to that.
	Maybe he doesn't know the answer to that either, but I would assume this has got something to do with the insomnia.
	So I'm very sorry that we didn't get a chance to end the conversation, but um I suppose I suppose again, it could be accidental or it could be that he recoiled from the conversation.
	I may never know.
	But uh just yeah, for those of you who are out there, please please just put your kids' needs first and foremost.
	An extra 30k a year is not worth uh not being there for your kids and letting screens and videos uh raise them.
	Uh and listen, I mean, I I have no particular issue.
	I know that there are a lot of homeschooling uh kids who uh use screens, and that's not the end of the world, but they absolutely need a significant social life as well as that.
	And they need constant conversation with their parents and all this, that and the other.
	So I mean I know that there's some hoops that homeschool kids have to draw jump through in various areas, so I'm not completely averse to screens and you can't teach your kids everything.
	I get all of that.
	But uh not just screens, and very little he said once a month, they get some socializing in, and uh that's that's nowhere near enough in my humble opinion.
	Uh kids need uh socializing, uh particularly in their teens as they get into their teens.
	So again, I'm sorry that uh we didn't get to finish the conversation with this uh gentleman, but um yeah, uh you just basically have to do what's best for your kids.
	I mean, I know that sounds like a real cliche.
	Uh and you know, most parents will say that, oh, we want to do what's best for our kids.
	We we'll do anything for our kids, our kids are number one and all that.
	But uh to actually live that is can be quite different.
	And there's always options.
	You know, go to your ancestors and say, well, we can't possibly get by uh on on seventy thousand uh dollars a year, which is above the median income for uh most of North America, and so uh the idea that you can't find a way to possibly survive on Any of that is kind of incomprehensible to me.
	And you know, as a man, it's usually quite a good idea as a whole to uh try to make sure that you have some reasonable levels of economic value that you can provide.
	Um, particularly if you have three kids, right?
	So um but you can get by on 70k, in my opinion.
	But and and what your kids will remember is uh they don't they they won't they won't remember all the things that weren't bought, but they will remember the isolation, and I would definitely try to avoid that uh with your kids.
	So again, sorry for the uh mystery.
	Oh, he's typing.
	He's typing what's he typing?
	What's he typing?
	Home hopefully not a whole bunch of cuss words.
	But he's probably gonna tell me that his phone ran out of power.
	And uh we shall see.
	Uh I'm sorry my battery said nine percent and then just went down.
	Oh shut down.
	Okay.
	Well, um his he's down, and uh obviously I hope he'll keep me posted about what's going on, but this seems to be a pretty tragic situation.
	And uh I hope that he will get um home with his kids and maybe get his son to a specialist to try and figure out a best uh the best way to move forward.
	And uh I wish you the very best.
	And um I'm I'm sorry to have heard this this tale, but I hope some good can come out of it.
	So thanks everyone.
	Free the main.com slash donate to help out the show, really appreciate that.
	Take care, my friends.

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