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Oct. 9, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
35:09
Feminist Death Threats: The Anti-Equality Revolution - A Conversation with Erin Pizzey
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Hi everybody, Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Main Radio.
I'm here with Aaron Pitzie.
We are going to be uh speaking together at two conferences, which I wanted to mention just before we start, the Toronto Domestic Violence Symposium, June 6th to 7th, which is at the University of Toronto, Toronto TV.com, International Conference on Men's Issues, June 26th to 28th, 2014, Detroit, Michigan, a voice from men.com.
Thank you so much for taking the time today, uh, Erin.
Oh, it's a real pleasure because most people don't realize my mother was a Canadian.
She went to Toronto University.
I lived in Toronto as a child.
I went to Moulton College.
Is that right?
I you know, I guess I would be one of those people who didn't know that.
So thank you for letting me know.
Now, um, you were actually born in China.
Is is is that correct?
That's correct, yes.
I was born in Singtao with my twin sister.
And then we moved to Shanghai.
And that would have been, I was born in 1939, so about 1940.
Now the bonds were already falling then.
The Japanese had taken over.
But at that point, Germany hadn't, they hadn't joined up with Germany.
So we were just living that old colonial life.
My mother did only two things in her life, lose her temper and play bridge.
So she was at her best there.
And she wouldn't leave.
Other mothers left with their children, but she wouldn't stop partying.
So what happened is we were suddenly, when the whole thing changed, under house arrest.
And all our friends and our little friends went into the concentration camps.
And we were on the last boat out of China because my father was a diplomat, and we were exchanged for hostages.
That's really how I ended up with we ended up in Beirut with my mother because she had a Canadian passport.
And she we'd briefly join my father in Beirut, and then she came to Toronto.
But uh it was a very unhappy time for me because she was very violent, and particularly to me.
And I remember going to Moulton College to school, she'd whipped me with an ironing cord.
And I was standing in front of the teacher, and that she she could see my legs were covered in welts with dried blood.
And I said to her, this is what my mother did to me.
Will you help me?
And she said, Well, no wonder you're such a dreadful child.
Oh my goodness.
But that you see, that was the problem in those days.
Nobody ever admitted anything to do with domestic violence.
And particularly Well, and I I think it was in the 50s when doctors began to first suspect that children who came in with concussions and contusions and uh um lacerations and broken bones, that it might not actually be the endless series of fake accidents that the parents pretended were.
That's quite right.
But the fact is that all stayed within the medical field.
It never got out to the general public.
So, in a way, everybody knew, and all the agencies knew, but nobody did anything about it.
Until in 1971, I would opened a little community center for mothers and kids.
The first woman came in and took off her jersey, and she was black and blue to the waist.
And I took her home that night because I did know what she was talking about.
And then from then on, that was the first in the world of its kind.
And uh from then on, uh, women and children poured in.
But I knew, and I was the only person, because there was no literature you could find about adult domestic violence.
But of course, I was very open-minded because both my parents were violent.
Both were equally dysfunctional.
So, as far as I was concerned, it was a family issue, it was a human issue.
And so almost immediately after I opened the home for the mothers and kids, I opened one for men in North London, which I couldn't keep going because the millionaires who'd give me money for children and my mother's wouldn't give me a penny for men.
And of course, that's true of 43 or so years later.
It's still the same.
There's virtually nothing in terms of refuge for men.
But then it's this is something I've talked about at this show quite a bit, which is um it it's it's remarkable how little feedback occurs in the shows that I do where I talk about women's role in the cycle of violence.
And it it shocks me, and it it still does deeply shock me, that society is unwilling to even discuss women's role in the cycle of violence.
Somehow, it's like if you say, well, women are part of the cycle of violence, somehow people believe you're demonizing women and excusing men And so on, which I don't find to be the case at all.
But it is remarkable the degree to which it's simply something which you can't talk about.
And it seems to me that that's very much against the idea of equality for women, right?
I mean, I I was always sort of raised to say, well, treat women as equal to men.
It's like, okay, well, then if they're committing crimes against children, which they are on a regular basis, not all, of course, uh, then we should uh hold them accountable and and work to find ways to to deal with and remediate that issue.
But boy, it's like this whole white night phalanx comes up around blackened women's hearts to defend them from any moral responsibility, which I find uh is treating women like children.
Well, you have to go back to the beginning.
And recently I wrote a book called This Way to the Revolution.
It's the story of the setting up of the first uh shelter in the world, and then what happened subsequently.
Now, for the first few years, m my I built a therapeutic community, because I realized that where a parent can't parent, because they too have been brought up in violence, there needs to be a therapeutic intervention.
When you have a child that's come in, as an example, uh his father was a murderer.
He murdered another child when he was 13, he strangled the child.
Or uh, and everybody was terrified of Peter except for me.
And I talked to Peter.
He'd been let out of prison, if he'd been in prison since he was little.
But when you know that his mother was a prostitute and beat him, she then abandoned him, and his father sodomized him regularly, which is why at 13 he was in the children's home.
Who do we put in the dock?
Where does it stop?
That generational violence has probably gone on for five or four or five generations.
I've always said what we need is family therapy.
And indeed, I changed the name from women's aid to family rescue.
And this is what we haven't done.
A few years later, the emerging feminist movement was called Liber Liberation, Women's Liberation in those days, where they were in had a meeting in Washington after they'd all come back from uh fighting in the South for against segregation.
And the women there decided to turn on the men in their lives, the left-wing men.
They created, they said, we will no longer fight global capitalism, we will now rename this the patriarchy.
This is how this was born.
And with that, that meant that they had access to all women everywhere.
Men were the enemy.
And all of a sudden, those of us who were following desperately this idea of a new movement, which we understood was equality for women, was actually a sham.
And that we were all paying our money into to joining the women's liberation movement.
Then we were told to have groups in our houses, and then we were told that we would have consciousness raising sessions.
Now I know exactly where we're going because my father and mother were captured in Tin Sin in 1949 under a house arrest by the communists.
So my father was an expert on how it worked.
And it was interesting because, as far as I was concerned, when the first meeting in my house called the Goldwalk Road Group, this head honcho came down and told me that my isolation with children and the wish to do something to join with other women was not my problem.
My problem was my husband.
He was my oppressor.
And I remember laughing and saying, Well, I'm living enormously comfortably.
He's paying the mortgage, so I have the luxury to stay at home.
She said, Well, yes, but what you don't realize is that you have a mink-lined cage.
And I looked at it and I thought, I know, I just thought, here's here are the most of the I was there in the very early days, and I knew quite a lot of the people who were the leading lights in this.
And I would say the majority of them.
That's that mantra that we were given, the personal is the political.
If your father is a bastard and is violent, then all men are bastards in violence.
That's really what went behind it.
And they used to pick at me regularly when I spoke anywhere, and they'd the the banisters would act banis would actually say, all men are rapists, all men are bastards.
And I had to have a police escort for a book I wrote called Prone to Violence, which is a study of my therapeutic program.
But in 1974, there was a small conference given by us to help other groups.
But unbeknownst to us, they had all been organizing and a lot of them were American, and they voted themselves into a national organization that would be feminist, and that um men would not be able to work in any of the refugees, and boys over the age of nine to twelve would not be admitted.
And that's the situation now, 43 years later.
Well, then you faced significant danger uh in in this.
And but but before we get to that, um your your book that that came out in the 70s, which I think sparked a lot of the controversy, which was the degree to which, in conversations with women, you found that women were not always the sort of stereotypical Victorian victims of non-reciprocal male violence.
Aaron Powell I said from the beginning, of the first hundred women that came into the refuge, and we all did uh questionnaires together going back three generations.
I said 62 of those hundred women were as violent, or in some cases more violent than the men they left, and that most domestic violence is consensual.
Both couples are violence prone.
And I said the real victims, like me, we had no choice.
At least my mother and father chose each other for whatever their bad needs, but children have no choice.
You're born and marinated in violence, and a high percentage of you will continue the pattern.
And if the power imbalance is considered to be the most egregious element to add to domestic abuse, then even if we accept that there's a power imbalance between the male and the female, like the husband and the wife, the power imbalance between parent and child is infinitely greater.
And so to me, at least when either parent, but again, I focus on women because that's not part of the conversation as yet.
But when parents abuse children, they are exercising in human relations the greatest power disparity that is possible, because children have no economic independence, no legal independence, uh, they have no particular place to go, uh, whereas uh uh women uh who are abused have all of those things.
Yeah.
And uh talking about power imbalance with regards to mothers and children in particular, again, is one of these absolutely taboo topics still within society, which again I I sort of wandered into it thinking, well, this can't be that controversial, it's so obvious.
But um uh uh my naivety made me a bit more outspoken than I might have otherwise been.
I've since learned better.
Well, it's sad because it can't silence us.
I mean, that's that's my big argument.
And the and the argument also is for me, the majority of people who are violent in person interpersonal relationships m mostly have some form of personality disorder, and you cannot leave.
Somebody like my mother, who is a classic narcissistic narcissistic exhibitionist, shouldn't have been left anywhere near children.
She had a hair trigger temper.
And and unless she was the center of attention, she was very dangerous, particularly to me, because I looked like my father.
Now, one of the things my argument along all these years has been don't take away children from mothers.
Take the mothers in and mother the mothers so they can mother the children, learn to mother the children.
And that's what I did.
I had long-term accommodation, shared accommodation, and women stayed with me for two or three years till it was time for them to be rehoused.
By that time, they had learned all the things they needed to do to be able to enjoy their children and to have a future with their children.
And of course, nobody would listen.
And now what happens?
If a woman gets involved in a violent relationship, the social workers say to her, if you don't give this man up, we're taking the children into care.
Or if she's what they call an unfit mother, they take the children into care.
Care in many cases is even worse than the family.
And also the mothers replace the children.
So you double and treble the problem as the years go on.
It's a madness.
The main point of all this is at some point we have to offer family rescue, family therapy as an antidote to violent childhoods, not this idea that you simply take women into refugees, you tell them they're victims, they're not responsible for their choices, and you let them loose, and they just re addict themselves to some other violent relationship.
Well, and I I think one of the things that has happened is that with private charity, the private donors tend to look for long-term results because they can put their money anywhere.
When the public money begins to flow in, in a sense, there's less incentive to solve the problem in the long term, because if the problem is solved, then the public money dries up.
And so I think that there's, and again, it's not that the people doing it are are in any way malevolent or or conscious of this, but I think there is uh this this issue where with the public money flowing, the revolution in a sense can never end because then the money dries up and people have to find something else to do with their time or other ways to earn their money.
Partly that, but of course, it's also a billion-dollar enterprise now.
And the and the and the and the the the problem, and I've always said this, and it does bother me, is that for many of the shelters in America and across the Western world, uh these are the bunkers where you can actually brainwash uh fragile women into whatever you want to brainwash them into.
And the the reason why that there has never been any research is done on any of these refugees in any part of the Western world, there are no outcomes, there's nothing.
It's just uh a fenced-off discussion where if anybody tries to have an honest discussion, as you've already experienced, they're screamed at and picketed and threatened.
And my feeling is that uh it's conferences like this, which is going to be about the family and domestic violence.
It's not it's not one way or the other.
But we do have to look at radical feminism because in my time, I'm 75 now.
I was there in those great big uh meetings where we were told the family was a dangerous place for women and children, and our women's minister only in 1990 said, said in a policy paper, the new family unit will be women and children.
And this is exactly what's happening.
It is uh one of the great tragedies of the 20th century, the degree to which when leftism and look, I'm not a rightist, so uh I'm another species complete completely, but when leftism tends to infiltrate civil movements or or social movements,
they almost inevitably bring with them the demonization of some particular group, whether it's uh class or bourgeoisie or or Jews or or men or something, there is this demonization aspect and this sort of feral hatred that that emerges, which I think really impedes any long-term productive uh problem solving.
Well, I think that's absolutely right.
And it the um I suppose the genius of those early women was working out that if they condemned the other half of the human race, they would have access to unlimited sums of money, which is actually what's happened.
And they can't be questioned.
And the thing that interests me is majority of people in power across the Western world, don't argue because they know it's women who vote.
And this is behind an awful lot of why.
Nobody speaks up.
It's not as though I'm saying something that people in the street don't understand.
They do.
People in the street know it's family violence.
They know that mothers and fathers can be violent.
And uh but the fact is that the people in power, it's more important to stay in power than it is to come out and tell the truth.
So some of the dangers that you faced um in the 70s, and I also know that you recently won a libel case against the British uh uh publisher, which good for you.
But uh talk a little bit, if you don't mind, and uh about some of the um the threats that that you face in the 70s that did cause you, I think quite wisely as well, to to flee the country.
Well, it got it got to where I couldn't go anywhere without being picketed and screamed at and and the threatening phone calls.
Because I was standing with this new movement uh and and trying to bar them from recruiting vast sums of money, and also misinforming the public, to me, it was fraud.
Because I could see and the work that I was doing proved beyond all shadow of doubt that it was a family issue and it's a generational issue.
And suddenly up comes this new concept, which it is all men.
The idea of the patriarchy being responsible for uh violence across the board with by all men, doesn't make any actual rational sense.
But then you have to remember this isn't a rational movement.
It's a movement to give to empower women to actually essentially become as grossly aggressive as they like against men in general.
And my uh from the very beginning, I I was a totally lone voice.
I think the final thing that broke it for me was uh uh after a lot of threats, the the police said to me, um, if some any parcel or letter parcel comes into your home and it doesn't have a proper stamp on it, I don't mean a postage stamp, a post office stamp, please call us.
And actually it was my daughter uh who was living who was there, and she called me at the refugee and said, Look, a post a parcel's come in, it's a little parcel, and it hasn't got the right stamps on it.
So I've put it out in the back of the garden.
So I rang the police and then drove home to the root to my house.
By the time shortly after I arrived, in came the bomb squad.
And they're a terrifying sight because look, they're all dressed up and covered with huge gloves.
And so I had two little grandchildren who was looking there, absolutely terrified.
And we watched him go out to the back of the garden and retrieve the package.
And he came back in, and actually it was it wasn't a bomb at all.
It was just something that hadn't been stamped, which had got through.
But I just remember at that point in thinking, this is enough.
I can't put my family through any more of this.
And then I packed up, sold everything, and we went to Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Right.
So at least there was a little less rain.
I guess that's the only upside from fleeing for a certain way to be able to do that.
Yeah, but you know, funny, that that was because we were living on a big, because I had the grandchildren, we had to be near a school.
So I was living on this estate of about probably a thousand houses with an acre each.
And uh it didn't take long.
And it's interesting, this is where I really began to work with men because so many men on that estate were actually victims of very violent women.
And uh that didn't take long to make me very, very unpopular.
I think this the dog shooting incident, I don't think was feminists.
I think it was because I was, along with all the other things that what people were coming to me, uh, it was it was a lot to do with um pedophiles and pedophile rings in Santa Fe.
Because at that point there were only two DAs, and Santa Fe was a real wild west town.
And that's where I think that came in.
And for those who don't know, um, and again, I'm terrible terrif terrifying stuff.
Uh, what what's the uh incident with the dog?
Well, what happened is it was Christmas Eve, and Nunu, who was the sort of he was slightly brain damaged, he was a big, lovely, smiley dog.
And suddenly he came, he must have been shot on my property because he because he came running in and I could and he was his claw with paw was curled under, and he was just shaking and crying.
And then I found him and held him and realized that he had been shot in the pool, and we took him to the vet.
And that and uh that's where we I began to feel the time was running out, and we needed to move somewhere safer.
This one of the problems with all this is standing up uh and being a lone voice and fighting huge vested interests.
It's a very dangerous business.
And you've got to know what you're doing.
I mean, even as recently as it probably been 19 um 98, I was with Senator Anne Cools, and we were in Vancouver to speak, and police were all over the place when we arrived there because we'd been threatened with a bomb by a local radical lesbian group.
So but it's been much, much less violent now than it used to be, possibly because the money that there was required to build this huge empire is rolling in, and they have no interest in actually asking anybody to ask any questions.
Right.
Well, I look, I I wanted to say um it's not on behalf of anyone, but just you know, human being to human being.
I'm incredibly sorry for the amount of aggression, obviously, as a child that you experienced is absolutely horrifying.
But um it is incre it it is very difficult when you see the cure for some of the greatest human evils.
And I've made the case and others have made the case that if we can deal with violence against children, the number of human evils that will fall away are incalculable, and it will be a life and planet-saving movement.
Uh and uh we we cannot deal with aggression against children without dealing with women's capacity for violence.
To some degree we've dealt with males' capacity for violence, and this is well understood within society.
I Think it's a bit exaggerated at times, but it's part of the public discourse, even though it's obviously distorted at times.
And I'm I mean, your your heroism is is astonishing, your commitment to uh a more peaceful world, your commitment to establishing moral responsibility for all adults and your compassion, of course, for those who've even initiated violence against children and and others is is incredible.
I just really wanted to um give you my my sympathy and my intense admiration for the strength.
I know this is an uncomfortable thing because you're British and I'm British and or at least grew up in England, so compliments are like, oh yes, well, you know, bad, whatever.
No, I don't feel no, I actually don't feel that I feel if and this is what happened when the children were older in the refugees and could understand, and we'd have sessions with the children and the mother.
If anybody could have sat me down and said, Did you know that your mother was viciously beaten by her stepmother?
No, I didn't, not till it was much too late.
No, I didn't, because families don't talk about family violence.
It's there all it's all very secret.
But I mean, once I I understood, and I suppose part of what I did in working specifically with violent women and finding refugees that would take non-violent women, uh, was because I knew the kind of work that needed to be done with the women who were already violent, had been prostituted, had been sex sexually abused.
I knew what needed to be done.
And those were the women that were closest to my heart.
Because in a way, I endlessly rehabilitate my mother.
Huh.
Do you think that there's anything in particular?
And you know, I I I always ask these questions, and I sound like I'm some sort of determinist, which I'm not, but it always fascinates me.
And I think it's a huge, huge question.
Do you think there's anything in particular that helped you to uh overcome this repetition of violence uh that that helped you to be able to handle the insights about female violence that you had, which so many other people simply don't seem to have the capacity to do.
Do you think there's some extra third eye that can observe the world and yourself?
Do you think it's okay?
I think it's very simple.
I think when I was four and a half, I had a vision.
And it was a strange experience.
But but that about that time I realized my mother couldn't stand me.
She really couldn't bear me anywhere near her.
But this vision came with such a comfort.
I knew I was loved beyond all human reason.
And then when I was nine, and we went to a holiday home because my parents were then in China, um, Miss Williams came into my life.
And this is where I believe so totally in mentors.
I took one look at this huge woman.
She must have been about 25 stone, and she was six foot seven.
She'd driven ambulances in the war.
She was a golf champion.
She was the local magistrate, and she was the most powerful person with a huge compassion and ability to love all 40 of us.
And she was my mentor.
In my refuge, immediately, the first bit of money I had, I hired a man to come and work with us.
And thereafter, good gentlemen, as volunteers and staff came and worked with us for years and years and years.
And I love it because the memories of the children are very largely of the men who played with them, who were part of the play staff, who nurtured them.
And we that's why we desperately need men in shelters.
But they're not allowed because they're the enemy, which is to me tragic.
Well, and of course, in any other sphere, um, if if a woman was uh married to a black man who beat her, and then there was a group who said, Well, now we're not going to allow any black men near any women, that would be considered horribly racist and would be condemned from every conceivable sphere.
But uh, you know, sexism against men is um is like physics.
You you don't you don't even really question it, it just is.
But I find it amazing because in 1982, when prone to violence was published, and I had to have a police escort outside the the Savoy when I was at a luncheon, uh the all the pickets all arrived, many, many women with these big banners saying all men are rapists and bastards, and I went down to the police.
And I just said to them, exactly what you said.
If that was Jews or black men, you'd arrest them all.
But because it's all men, and he just looked at me and he said, and he laughed and he said, We're frightened of them.
No, you're not.
You just think it's funny.
And men, I'm afraid it's only just recently that men across the border waking up.
For a long time, they're intimidated.
Well, and and what are your views?
Uh I guess after a lifetime of activism.
I know this is tough to compress into a relatively short conversation, but where do you think that the movement to to heal families, the movement to uh bring more moral responsibility to women, the the movement to really work with the facts of domestic violence.
How do you think that's going?
Or where do you think it is uh since when you began?
It's pretty much nowhere.
There are individuals in the field.
But my hope is that I come back to Canada, which is half of who I am, and I'm going to this conference uh and uh on the 6th and the 7th of June.
And I don't know the the details yet exactly, but I will be there, and I hope this is the beginning, because then again, as you said, we will both be at the conference in Detroit, and this has to be the beginning of a dialogue.
And I've said this so many times that men and women working together can protect the next generation of children.
If we can protect the next generation of children, then we can empty prisons and we can empty mental hospitals, because everybody knows that it's in prison where you see those children when they've grown up.
Huge percentage are children from exactly my sort of background.
And if this Williams hadn't, I was an incredibly dangerous child.
That's why I wrote Infernal Child, the story of what it's like to be completely out of control.
They couldn't school me, they couldn't do anything with me.
I was just dangerous till I met Miss Williams.
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, and it doesn't actually take an enormous amount of mentoring to to help a child to turn around.
It's not like you have to invest 10 years of your life.
No.
For certain children at least, there if you have the example, in other words, if you have an example of a more peaceful approach to human relations, some children will really just grab at that, like a drowning man uh at a barrel, uh and and will say, Wow, I had no idea even that this way of being was possible, and they'll just drive that way forward.
Um that's not true for all children, but it certainly sounds like it was the case for you.
Yeah, and I think that my I used to say to the mothers, you only have one strategy for survival, and that's the boot and the fist, because that is how you were programmed.
But I'm going to teach you other strategies for survival.
And that's what we did, and with the children.
And it's it's lovely now because many of the children contact me on Facebook, and I know so many of them.
It's very obvious the ones that came in younger have the best chance.
Uh when they were much older, it was much harder.
And the other thing I say, which is the saddest thing to say, the girls were so much more resilient than the boys.
I would expect when the proper research is done into all these families, you will find that boys, particularly when their mothers are violent, are far more damaged.
That's why you see so many more men in prisons than you do women.
I I think that the fragility of boys uh is um one of the great unspoken realities uh of society.
Um because of course girls are these tender flowers that need to be protected and nurtured, but boys are considered to be sort of wild animals that will domesticate themselves.
And this doesn't, in my experience, at least is not not the case at all, where the boys are are very fragile.
I think you find I I agree with that, and I also think that for it for a boy, it's it's it's in it's interesting uh how the girls would come into the refuge, and yes, they were damaged, and yes, they they had strategies that were going to do them no good long term, including finding the violent repercussions in the family drama exciting and finding it very hard to deal with normal everyday life.
Uh but I think for the the for the boys where the mothers rejected them, and of course, as you know, boys under one of them was likely to be murdered, not girls, and the figures go on up.
And uh my um and that's why I suppose I didn't only have children in the refuge, I brought up a lot of children in my own home with my children.
And uh I just I I just could feel the fragility of of them.
And in a sense, I suppose but I grew up with more boys than girls, you see, because uh the holiday home, most of the girls were abroad with the with the parents and they'd sent their sons to boarding schools.
So I grew up with a lot of boys who had a deep understanding of what male is, which has been airbrushed out now.
Because essentially the the whole feminist ideology is that you feminize men, because once you've turned them into women, they will no longer be these ravening brutes.
Actually, that's not true at all.
All you do is complete create completely confused males, which is what we have, and and an inability to make relationships.
Well, and and if if if someone were to suggest that you take a homosexual man and consciousness raise him into being straight, this would rightly be considered homophobic and and wrong.
And but you can take a man and try and turn him into like men are considered or boys are considered broken girls, and therefore you just need to fix them by feminizing them.
Uh but that of course is because that the gold standard of of human interaction for a lot of people is uh girls, uh, because female violence is obscured from society, and therefore if women are girls are considered nonviolent, then if you make men, blah, blah, blah.
Right.
I mean, it's it's madness and it's it's absolutely anti-empirical.
Uh and uh one of the things I think is tragic, but in particular about some of the more extreme feminists, when they're talking about men as a whole, anybody with any knowledge of human psychology knows that they're really talking about their own fathers, although you know the the males in their lives, which they're then extrapolating to men as a whole.
Because if you have a loving relationship with a man, you simply can't hold a sand a sign saying that uh men are bastards and rapists and so on.
No, and in fact, those aren't the women that are that are that are the the radical feminists.
The radical feminists are largely very deeply damaged women.
I remember going into Ms. Magazine when I were first time I'd come across to the Eastern Seaboard, uh, and I was but helping to set up refugees before I realized what how political it was there.
And I just remember looking at all these women, and there was this great uh, you know, um a woman needs a um a man like a fish needs a bicycle, which was Gloria Steinem's logo, apparently, and thinking there's something seriously wrong with all you women.
And and and there was an atmosphere of I was wearing makeup.
That was a crime in those days.
And I always remember the early days when we were we were told that uh that anything uh even to wear makeup or to use deodorant, that was anti-feminism.
I used to say, do you mean to tell me that you think it's political to smell?
That's when you learn they have no sense of humor.
Right.
Well, um I'm certainly looking forward to uh meeting you face to face.
And um I'm certainly looking forward to to hearing you talk uh at the conference.
I really do want to thank you for for the conversation this morning.
I wish we could talk longer, but uh we will Yeah, we will, and and we will uh, of course, for the for the video and for the audio, we'll uh include links to websites and books.
And uh uh you're an elegant and and witty and compassionate writer, and uh, you know, just from a you know technical skill standpoint, even aside from the content, it's a real delight to read your work.
So strongly recommend that uh you go out and read Ms. Pizzy's books.
And uh thank you again for your time uh today.
It's a pleasure, Stefan.
All right, take care.
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