Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - My Mother Has Too Much Power!

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Sept. 30, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:51:37

My Mother Has Too Much Power!

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	Excellent.
	Thanks again, Steph, for your time.
	I wanted to read start by reading my dream, the summary.
	I was in the parking lot of the Catholic church near my home that I used to attend up until I was in high school.
	I saw Jeff from my high school walking there in the parking lot and said hello to him.
	And then pointed out that my son was walking down the street.
	I turned and said to Jeff, kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents.
	And then Jeff and I both laughed with each other.
	Then I noticed that the church is right next to a big pond.
	Um and I looked out and saw the pond and how breathtakingly beautiful it was.
	The view, the sunlight coming in, the bright sunshine, clear blue sky, just like I remembered it when I was a child.
	I walked down the grassy incline from the parking lot to the edge of the pond and noticed something lying in the water.
	So near the edge of the water that I could see it very clearly.
	It looked like two dead bodies, one adult and one child.
	The child they both were wearing very brightly colored clothes, lying very still in the shallow water.
	At first I thought it must have been an illusion.
	Just then, as I was standing on the edge of the water, I saw another guy from my hometown, who was a close friend of my younger brother, walking along the edge of the pond with his wife and his child.
	I said, Hi Tom, but he did not react at all and just kept walking towards me.
	He continued walking towards me, and when he was right near me, I called his name again.
	He still did not react at all and just walked by me with a blank look on his face.
	Just after he passed me by, I called him by his name again, and then he turned back around and said hello to me, and then we started talking.
	Thank you.
	After that, I started taking off my socks and shoes to wade into the water.
	And Tom asked me why I was doing that, because it was pretty cold outside.
	Too cold of a day to go in the water.
	I pointed to the two bodies lying under the water and told Tom that I wanted to confirm that they are real.
	It was a kid's plastic pail and a shovel on the ground, and I picked up the little shovel and waded into the water, about up to my knees.
	I looked down into the water, and now could only see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water.
	I reached down and held the little child's hand.
	As I tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand.
	I started digging with that little plastic shovel, but I couldn't extricate her arm because she was wearing a sweater, and that sweater was stuck kind of buried in the sand.
	Since I realized that I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself, I turned back to Tom, who was standing there by the side of the pond still, and asked him to call 911 for help.
	And that was the end of my dream.
	Yeah, and I've been listening, uh, this is not the real names.
	Uh and uh yes, so tell me you you'd also written down some thoughts about the dream.
	So that's Yes, so after I had written that out, I noticed the first part of the dream where I said, you know, kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents, and that's when I laughed with uh the Jeff there.
	Um thinking back to my youth, our family home was actually about a twenty minute walk from the church.
	And each Sunday my siblings and I made the journey on foot because attendance was not optional by our parents.
	They forced us to go, even though they didn't go to church themselves, but they made us go every Sunday.
	Um sorry tell me about why your parents didn't go to church.
	Uh well, they would hang out and sleep in.
	They had got uh in Saturday night go with their friends and then um sleep in.
	No, no, I get that, but sorry, why why would you have to go to church but your parents didn't go?
	Uh they wouldn't uh entertain any questions.
	We asked them a few times.
	They said, you know, we've gone to church enough as we were kids and young adults when he knew when we were little, they had to drive us.
	Um they said they don't need to go anymore.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	I was kind of resident in the answer, but it wasn't really weren't allowed to question where we get uh in trouble.
	And were they still Christians or religious when they were older?
	Uh not really, no, no.
	Uh what do you mean?
	Not even not not uh not even my mother might go, you know, a Christmas Catholic because I would say maybe once a year at Christmas.
	But when after my father died, my mother with her friends started going, maybe when she was in her seventies.
	I think it was more of a social thing.
	And did they pray or did you say grace, or was there any sort of religious stuff during the week?
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Alright, so they were essentially agnostics or atheists, or maybe agnostics is probably closer.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Um so their absence from church, you know, the kids were there by ourselves made us feel really lonely and really not part of the church community, especially when I noticed you know other children sitting with their families during the church services.
	That solitude often often let me questioning the significance of going to church at all.
	What was the purpose?
	Since it was clear my parents, my own parents didn't consider it important enough for them to attend themselves.
	So that was one thought I had.
	Second thought was, yeah, obviously these two dead bodies in the pond at the edge of the water.
	Uh over the past decades, I've only ever returned to that that old my old church for funerals for family and friends from my town.
	And uh just two weeks ago I was there to say goodbye to my mother's best friend.
	Uh she was the last of my mother's close circle to pass away, so that was kind of like the last time I'd be going there.
	Um, your father's dead, but your mother's still alive, is that right?
	No, no, my mother passed away as well.
	Yeah.
	And when did she die?
	Uh about four or five years ago.
	And your father?
	Uh about over 20 years ago.
	Okay, got it.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	So standing in that familiar place, I realized it might be the final time I ever set foot in that church.
	And you know, perhaps obviously my subconscious is kind of nudging me to reflect on what those early experiences in the Catholic church meant and throughout my childhood and what they're meant to teach me now.
	Right.
	So that was the second thought.
	And then the third thought I had was just about the church itself.
	You can see I sent a little photo to you, but there's a parking lot and small grassy area leading down to the pond.
	Uh when I was a kid, there were zero trees at all, and the grass was always mown.
	So you could just walk right from the parking lot right down to the pond.
	It was fantastic.
	Um hang out on the edge of the water and see, you know, the beautiful scenery.
	And um when I attended church, you know, from elementary school up through high school, um, it was really quiet place to kind of relax afterwards.
	Um basically hang out, reflect.
	And however, on weekends there were often crowds of high schoolers hanging out there, making noise, drinking, partying by the pond.
	So obviously the church was not up for that.
	So after a few years having to deal with these quote unquote troublemakers, the church basically let the grass go wild and it was also grow wild.
	And also had the uh the trees grew um kind of sprouted all along the edge of the water, so really kind of the view is was quite um blocked out as well as you really couldn't walk down from the parking lot down to the church anymore.
	So really it was turning that one successful area by the pond into an overgrown barrier.
	And I remember thinking back to my siblings and I used to skip church services and just hang out of the pond, which was you know, welcome, common retreat from the cold, unfriendly environment in the church.
	Yeah, it was unfriendly because again, we weren't there with our parents and people would look at us as scance, and you know, sometimes we were misbehaving, and people would say, you know, we're interrupting them while they're trying to attend church services or pray.
	Um by allowing the area to become inaccessible, the church feels now is kind of less inviting to those kind of seeking refuge.
	People like the younger me perhaps lost in churching, so you know, and thinking this through seems like uh this choice of the church seems to strife from Jesus' message of compassion, hope, and inclusion, closing the door on no Sunita most.
	Right.
	That was my third third thought, uh thought there of the dream.
	And when did you have the dream?
	Uh two weeks ago.
	And sorry, how close was that relative to you going to the funeral for your mother's friend?
	About a week or a week and a half afterwards.
	Okay, got it.
	Maybe two weeks, yeah.
	And was there anything that happened that was memorable the day before?
	Or sorry, the day off the night of the dream, like if it's Monday night, Monday.
	Um not that I can recall, no.
	Um where's your level of uh I assume your level of faith has maintained itself?
	Or improved?
	Um I don't really go to church myself, no.
	I just go to the church.
	Okay, but you don't go to church?
	Um what's your relationship to Christianity?
	And yes, so after I mean my wife is not Christian and you don't bring the kids up in Christian.
	I mean we do have a lot of people.
	So are your wife now or not?
	It's not not Christian.
	No, okay.
	No.
	And she has some other religion, or is she atheist or agnostic?
	Kind of agnostic, yeah.
	Okay.
	And that's been the case the whole time you've known her, is that right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So that is your wife and what has been your sort of, I guess history with religion and where are you now?
	Um so it's kind of like not having church in society.
	I've seen that it's kind of like a pillar has been taken out.
	So I in terms of teaching morals to kids and things of that sort.
	We didn't really have that.
	They do go to church services or the Sunday school or any of that.
	So when you say we didn't really have that, so you're talking about the pillar being taken out in terms of teaching morality.
	When you say we didn't have that, you mean as a kid the church didn't teach you morality?
	Uh they did.
	We did in Sunday schools, yes.
	Okay, so you had that you had that moral instruction when you were a kid.
	Uh yes.
	Yeah.
	Okay, got it.
	And uh did you accept or believe the moral instruction?
	Um well, Sunday school teachers can be pretty mean, so it really wasn't it it didn't hit home as much as I think it probably should have if we had liked the people who were our teachers.
	Yeah, because you said it was uh cold, right?
	Uh cold and mean in the church.
	Right.
	In the church, yeah.
	So it wasn't charismatic or or anything like that.
	So um what was your sense of the church, its teachings and uh why did you experience them as cult?
	Well, it's also well it was cold because again, we it wasn't the family together.
	Well, the family was when I was real little, we would go together, but then when we were able to get into elementary school, my parents just said, okay, forget if they stopped going and said you all can walk.
	So that's kind of what we did.
	And then it was we're kind of like on our own.
	We go there, we didn't really want to be there.
	We would sit in the back as much as possible, and then sometimes the ushers would would poke us and say, hey, go up and sit.
	You're sitting away from everyone, why don't you move up closer to the altar and things like that?
	So it was always like uh we just kind of have to suffer through it every hour until we we got the idea that we could just skip and just hang out at the pond and just come back and tell my parents that we went we went to church when we really didn't.
	And I guess it wasn't kid friendly or uh what was the sort of um you know American churches that I've been to, you know, there's music, there's usually pretty charismatic preacher uh who makes it kind of fun and engaging, but it wasn't anything like that, is that right?
	Uh no, that's more in the Protestant style, not in the Catholic style.
	Right.
	Oh, pretty serious, yeah.
	Okay.
	And were there any other kids around that you knew or yeah, yeah, all the kids who went to school with?
	They were there with their parents.
	Oh, okay.
	So because they were there with their parents, did their parents ever ask you where your parents were?
	No.
	Did the priest or anyone ever ask where your parents were?
	Uh no.
	And what age were you when you started going uh on your own?
	And also just give me the ages of your siblings.
	Uh we all started going my own probably around like nine years old, ten years old.
	Yeah, ten years old.
	Yeah.
	And the ages of your siblings.
	Uh yeah, so about the same.
	Uh eight and twelve.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	It's a bit I mean, it's odd.
	I've not really heard of this before that the parents send the kids off walking to school at sort of eight between the ages of eight and twelve as a whole.
	Uh that's quite unusual.
	Uh, did the priest ever come to your parents' house?
	Or your house?
	Oh no, no.
	No.
	Okay.
	And how how long would you say that you guys went before you just went to hang out at the pool?
	Uh at the pond, sorry.
	At the pond?
	Uh well I would say probably when we get into high school and then once my older sibling got a license, car license, then it was like, okay, let's just go down uh to the coffee shop and hang out.
	Pretend that we didn't even you know go to church, we just left for an hour and came back.
	And uh they pretend it's it's sorry, go ahead.
	It was like, you know, in Russia, you'd say, you know, they pretend to work and you put the promise pretend to pay you.
	It's like we pretend to go to work go to church, and my parents pretended that they didn't notice that we were skipping.
	And I mean, did your parents ever indicate that they did know you were skipping?
	Uh once in a while.
	Then what would they say?
	Um another kind of chuckle a little bit.
	And did you ever have a conversation about this with your parents?
	Oh, we did before.
	Well, why do we have to go out of each other?
	No, no, no.
	Sorry, after like after you started and so on.
	Uh well, actually, my younger sibling just stopped going after he got his license.
	And so he never actually went through you know, confirmation, which we have uh when you're basically about uh 17, 16, 17 years old, so he never got confirmed, but myself and my other sibling did.
	So I'm kinda going through the motions.
	Yeah, so did you ever talk to your parents before they like over the course of their life before they died about not going?
	Uh no.
	Okay.
	And did your parents have an age difference?
	Is that why your dad died younger, or you just have bad luck?
	I know they're about the same age.
	Okay.
	And what did your father die of?
	Uh partially from smoking cigarettes and alcohol.
	Were they drinkers, like hard drinkers or?
	Uh my father was, yes.
	Okay.
	And your mother now, right?
	Not so much.
	Okay.
	And how happy would you say their marriage is?
	Oh, was, sorry.
	Um, it was okay.
	We stayed together.
	At the end, obviously with my father's drinking after retirement, that it got worse.
	So that that was a r real rough patch.
	But he didn't last too long after retirement.
	Okay, got it.
	Okay.
	And uh with regards to your own life, uh are you in your forties?
	Uh 50s.
	50s, okay.
	And what happened with your own family life, if anything?
	Uh myself, my wife, my kids.
	Uh-huh.
	Uh in terms of church services and well, I mean, uh, how many kids do you have?
	Uh two.
	Two kids, okay.
	And uh uh how old uh don't do it.
	Are they in their teens or twenties or uh early twenties?
	Early twenties, okay.
	So you have two kids.
	And uh what was your I guess no particular relationship with religion with your kids, right?
	No, I mean we celebrated the holidays, like Christmas giving presents and things like that, but not from religious sense now.
	And what was your kids' relationship with your parents?
	I guess not much if your dad died twenty years ago, but uh your mom.
	Uh yeah, they they were with her um for yeah, a good yeah, fifteen years or so.
	And we see her from time to time.
	Okay.
	Uh did you live from the Yeah, we lived about uh 45 minutes away, an hour away.
	And how often would your uh mm mother hang out with your kids and your family?
	Maybe once a month, go down and have lunch or something.
	God, why why so little?
	Uh well, they had activities and my other siblings wouldn't hang out with her as well, so Oh, come on.
	She was retired.
	Right.
	Come on.
	Unless she's a limpian, she's got time.
	Right, right.
	Well that's true.
	Well, she also did get sick for the past like five last five years of her life.
	So prior to that.
	Um the last five years was just myself going to the nursing uh home.
	For the most part.
	But prior to that, yeah, she would go to their games once in a while.
	We take her to the game something.
	Why did she see your why did she see her grandkids so little?
	Other than that she was a boomer and they're kind of like that, but I'm just curious.
	Um just spent time with others.
	She had busy schedules, she go traveling and it's a matter of priorities, right?
	Right, right.
	Okay, let me ask it another way.
	Why were your why was your kids so low priority for her?
	Like one lunch every month?
	That's sad.
	Yeah, maybe maybe maybe once or twice, maybe twice.
	Again, uh we live a little farther away, but the if you don't want to talk about this, just tell me because uh it's kind of boring.
	Right, right, right.
	Sorry.
	I mean she's 45 minutes away.
	She's got grandkids.
	Right.
	Yeah, she hung out with the other grandkids.
	She took care of two grandkids two or three days a week who lived close by.
	So she was also, you know, that was really tiring for her.
	So why why was uh why were the other kids so much higher priority than your kids?
	I'm not trying to cause trouble.
	I'm just genuinely curious.
	Yeah.
	I think because they were they were born first, a little older.
	So that's basically it was like That's it?
	Just the times, time glitch, that's it.
	Well, favor the older children, I guess.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's really unfair, isn't it?
	Yes, it is.
	Yeah.
	I mean she's she's with them two or three days a week, and you get once or twice a month.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	Did that I mean did you like your mother?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I thought it was um, we did ask, but she said it was, you know, our kids plus their kids would be too much for her to handle it, you know, four kids still as opposed to two.
	So she said only only in emergencies.
	Sorry, hang on.
	Uh so you said, can you spend more time with our kids?
	And she said the weekday, right.
	And she said, well, I don't care week, weekend, who cares, right?
	Um when you're retired, everything's a weekend.
	Um so you said, can you spend more time with our kids?
	And she said, not unless it's an emergency because the other kids are more important or higher priority or something.
	Or she or she had already been babysitting for them for a year or so.
	No, but that's circular, right?
	So why was I mean was there an emergency in that family?
	Was somebody sick?
	Uh why was it I mean, did she have to babysit?
	I mean, what was uh both parents both parents worked, so they would go to daycare in like two days and then two days a week she would or three days a week she would babysit them.
	Okay.
	So your wife stayed home, is that right?
	Um no.
	She worked part-time.
	Okay.
	Um yeah, sometimes.
	Okay, so because your siblings the the two parents, right?
	Your sibling and and the spouse, they both worked full-time, so your mother got kind of dragged into taking care of those kids, but then she had nothing left over for your kids because your wife worked part-time.
	Exactly.
	I mean, what do you think of that?
	Yeah, it was uh it was uh frustrating.
	I felt but yeah, I did felt like we were kind of like second-class citizens at that at that time.
	Second class.
	I mean, you're not sure.
	I don't know.
	Way down on the list, right?
	Because they get two to three days a week and you get only in emergencies.
	policies.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	Um sorry, where were you in the birth order?
	Okay.
	So did you talk to your mother about this, or did you talk to your siblings about this and say, you know, maybe we can find a way to even this out a bit?
	I mean, you and you and your wife could have used some time off too, I'm sure, right?
	Having somebody over with your kids if they were close and getting along and so on.
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	So did you talk about this with your family at all?
	Uh no.
	It was uh it was a sore point, so we didn't we didn't talk about it.
	Um that Looking back, yes, I should have.
	That's what you talk about.
	But you don't go to the doctor with a pain in your elbow and say, well, I don't want to talk about the pain in my elbow, because it's painful.
	That's what you're going for, right?
	Right.
	Exactly.
	Did your family had a have a habit of avoiding like this kind of honesty and reasonable requests?
	Yes, definitely.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And this is shared with your siblings too.
	Yes.
	Was it your older or younger sibling where your mother was taking care of the kids?
	Older.
	And did her favorite.
	Oh dear.
	Do you think that they were exploiting your mother?
	Yes.
	When it became clear that she was older and she was it was like I saw her once at the end of the day.
	She was completely exhausted.
	She was in her 70s or whatever cycle.
	You know, two young kids running around, you know, that's a lot of energy, so it's very difficult for her.
	Right.
	And I guess that that I guess that obviously stopped before she got sick because they got older, is that right?
	Yes, exactly.
	Okay, so did you ever talk to your brother and say, uh, come on, man, you're you're running mom racket, it's not reasonable.
	Uh no, I didn't.
	I didn't have a lot of communication with him.
	Well, but I mean, it's bad for your mom, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, you could call him, right?
	I mean, you wouldn't he would hang up on you, wouldn't he?
	Yeah.
	I I don't think he would have hung up, but something would have been an argument.
	Okay, and um It is narcissistic, pretty selfish, I would say.
	Oh, he's narcissistic in your view.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So selfish people get their way and good people get ignored.
	Exactly.
	Got it.
	Just wanted to happen.
	Just want to make sure that we were on the same page as far as as far as that goes.
	Okay.
	And uh level of happiness with your own marriage?
	Oh yeah.
	I'm uh very happy.
	Okay, good, good.
	All right.
	So that I appreciate that that backstory.
	Let's have a look at the dream.
	Okay.
	I was in the parking lot of the Catholic church near my home that I used to attend until I was in high school.
	I saw Jeff from my high school.
	Now remind me a little bit about Jeff.
	Uh just some random person I had played sports with.
	I wasn't really friends with him, just I had no idea why they showed up.
	Well, he showed up in the dream.
	How old was your son in the dream?
	Probably middle school.
	Maybe twelve, thirteen, fourteen.
	Uh, so that's about the time that you got your elders started going to the church.
	Um and you guys went too, right?
	Without your parents, is that right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So and this was your actual son, it wasn't like a made-up son.
	Correct.
	Okay, so you pointed my son who was walking down the street.
	So was your son not with you?
	No, apparently not.
	Was he ahead or behind?
	Uh just to the side.
	So I was in the parking lot and he was just walking down the street and walking past the parking lot on the phone.
	Was she further away from the church?
	Yes.
	Okay, so you turn to Jeff, say kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents.
	So that is a statement of self-sufficiency, right?
	And this is what your parents said.
	Your parents said, We don't need to drive you anymore.
	You can go on your own.
	You don't need us, but you need the church, right?
	Right, exactly.
	Now, did they ever say why you needed the church?
	They did.
	Why didn't they say?
	Basically they said they've learned all the lessons, so there's nothing new for them to learn, but we have to learn.
	And at that time.
	So that's kind of at that time, did you want to be like your father?
	Yeah, I want to really like my father.
	Um at the beginning, yes.
	But I said he's kind of a silent generation, so not really um as it's didn't really have a lot of uh interaction with him.
	Like a personal thing would be like, you know, tell us to clean up or do things, do that, but didn't really have a lot of personal interaction with him.
	He wouldn't like play games with us very much, and once in a while he would watch TV with us and once or the ball occasionally outside, but what I'm thinking about is if I say to if I were to say to my daughter, um, you have to take piano let's say I'm an expert pianist, right?
	Or say uh saying you have to take piano lessons, and then she would say, Well, why don't you have to take piano lessons, Dad?
	And I'd say, because I've already learned piano.
	Right?
	So if she did not respect my piano playing, this would make no sense to her, right?
	If I couldn't play chopsticks, right?
	Right.
	So if your parents say, We've got everything we can get out of religion, we've graduated, then they should live very godly religious lives, and they should be happy and they should be devoted to their community and they should have good personal habits uh and not be, say, addicts to cigarettes and and alcohol and so on, because they're saying we've graduated from church.
	Right.
	So they should be very noble and admirable human beings, right?
	Right, and also keep the Sabbath every week, which they didn't do, honestly.
	That's part of being in.
	Right.
	So they're saying, well, you have to learn what we've already mastered.
	But when you looked at your parents, did you see people who had mastered virtue, happiness, health, and life?
	No.
	Right.
	Definitely not.
	So it's kind of bull, right?
	Right.
	Now, when you were a kid, did you uh think, and that would be a pretty advanced thought, right?
	But when you were a kid, did you think, well, hang on, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
	I mean, they're saying that they've learned everything they can from church, but their lives are a bit of a mess, right?
	My dad's an alcoholic and a smoker, he doesn't really spend much time with his kids.
	Um how would they in terms of getting along with each other?
	Or were they just kind of like roommates?
	They're okay with each other.
	They were okay, yeah, they got along well with each other.
	Just uh the kids kind of look at her at a distance.
	But I would also say that both of them came from very religious family, both of them had you know, priests and nuns as their parents' siblings.
	So their aunts and uncles were uh priests and nuns.
	So kind of their generation and their siblings, most of them had stopped going to church.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So they didn't say we don't believe anymore.
	They said we've outgrown it or we've we've learned everything we can.
	We've learned everything we can.
	So how did that square with you as a kid that other people's parents were there, and I'm sure other people's grandparents were there.
	So how did it square with you as a kid that your parents said we've learned everything we can, but there were people way older than your parents still going to church to learn things.
	I didn't square very well at all.
	It's kind of uh hypocrites, you know.
	So you didn't believe them when they said we have to go.
	No, because also in the Sunday school, the parents would be teaching my friends' parents would be teaching my classmates' parents would be teaching the Sunday school.
	So that was also, you know, they're not just there at the services, but they're also there, you know, teaching the kids.
	Did your parents go ahead.
	Yeah, so so I mean it was not just it was not only not attending church, but also um in terms of my friends' parents, it was them attending church with the kid their kids, but also being the teachers of uh, you know, the Sunday school, the books from a lot more involvement.
	So even if your parents had graduated, they could did they teach you much about religion?
	No.
	Okay.
	And did they do good works in the community, charity helping out in the neighborhood, soup kitchens, bringing food to people who were sick or old or visiting the shut ins, or did they do any community charity stuff.
	Um after my father died, my mother was a volunteer at the library in the hospital.
	Okay.
	That was in like in her 70s.
	Yeah, but no, not when they were teaching you all about it.
	Okay, so kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents.
	Both Jeff and I laugh.
	Okay, so the church is right next to a big pond.
	I looked out at the pond and saw how breathtakingly beautiful the view of the pond was with the bright sun in the clear blue sky, just like it was when I was a child.
	So that's interesting because that's uh a sort of paganism or naturalism.
	In other words, you're not looking at the church saying how beautiful the glory of God is.
	You're looking at nature, right?
	And saying that's where the beauty is.
	It's in the natural, not in religion.
	Because you didn't also you didn't look at the you didn't look at the pond and say, it's not a criticism, right?
	I'm just you didn't look at the pond and say how beauty are the wor how beautiful are the works of God.
	Right.
	And so you're standing with your back to the church looking at the pond and saying, Oh, that's beautiful.
	Okay.
	Correct.
	So I walked down the grassy incline to the edge of the pond.
	Now, uh help me understand the grassy incline.
	How overgrown was it relative to the church letting it overgrow to drive off the school kids, uh the the high school kids.
	So in the dream it was just like when I was a kid, so I could see everything, so it wasn't overgrown at all.
	It was perfectly motive.
	Okay.
	I noticed something lying in the water.
	So near to the edge that I could see very clearly.
	Two dead bodies, one adult and one child.
	Now, uh how roughly how old was the child and roughly how old was the adult?
	Uh the child was a toddler.
	And the adult, I'm not sure, maybe 40s or 30s.
	Okay, one adult and one child, wearing very brightly colored clothes.
	Both of them, right?
	Like uh clown clothes or a gesture clothes or something else.
	No, just uh like red, like you could very clearly see it through the water.
	As opposed to like, of course, brown, maybe or light.
	So it wasn't like multicolored button with no And it's interesting how you say lying very still.
	It's like they're dead.
	Of course they're gonna be lying still.
	Right, right.
	But I didn't know they were dead at the time.
	Oh, actually, no, I didn't know.
	Oh, so it looked like two dead bodies.
	It looked like dead, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, I thought it might have been an illusion just then.
	I saw another guy from my hometown who's a close friend of my younger brother walking along the edge of the pond with his wife and child.
	So the first guy, Jeff, was he older or younger than you?
	Oh the same age.
	Same age, okay.
	Same age.
	Alright, so another guy, close friend of my younger brother, walking along the edge of the pond with his wife and child.
	I said, Hi, Tom, but he didn't react at all, just kept walking towards me.
	He continued walking towards me.
	When he was right near me, I called his name again.
	He still didn't react at all.
	Okay.
	Dad, do you do you have any idea what happened to these two guys from your high school?
	Did you ever find out about them?
	Um saw them social media.
	I mean, one that this one we call Tom here, he's married and has kids, and the other one is uh I got some girlfriend, no kids.
	But I don't know really the side.
	So he's walking towards me.
	I called his name again, didn't react, just walked by me with a blank look on his face.
	Just after he passed me by, I had told him my name.
	Then he turned around and said hello to me, and then we said because it's interesting because you've got two dead bodies, and this guy's treating you like you're a ghost, right?
	Right, right.
	So that's interesting.
	Okay.
	So I started talking, I started taking my socks and shoes.
	You don't remember what you talked about.
	You're just exchanging pleasantries, or did you tell him about the bodies?
	Uh no, no, I just hey you know this is my name and Oh, by the way, maybe you just thought I was a stranger, didn't recognize me and it had been so long.
	Well Yeah, you do it and stuff like that.
	You're in a you're an adult, is that right?
	Or you're you are the a are you the age that you were when your kid was in middle school?
	No, no, I was uh like your age in the fifties, right?
	Okay.
	Okay, started taking off my socks and shoes to get in the water, and he asked me why I'm doing that.
	As it was cold outside, too cold a day to go in the water.
	I pointed to the two bodies lying under the water.
	I wanted to confirm if they're real.
	So are you trying to confirm if they're real or if they're alive?
	I say I think at this point you know they're dead, right?
	They live like a big thing.
	Well, they haven't moved and they're underwater for a while, right?
	So they're dead.
	Right.
	Isn't that fair?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	There was a kid's plastic pail and shovel on the ground.
	I picked up the little shovel and weighed it into the water up to my knees.
	And what's the shovel for?
	Oh, to poke the bodies?
	Right, and also maybe dig it out in case.
	I looked down at the water and now could only see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water.
	I reached down and held the child's little hand, and as I tried to lift her hand, oh it's a female, right?
	Okay.
	Tried to lift her hand.
	I could see that her arm was buried under the sand.
	I started digging with a little plastic shovel, but couldn't extricate her arm because she was wearing a sweater that was stuck or buried in the sand.
	I realized that I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself.
	So I turned back to Tom, who was standing there by the side of the road, asked him to call 911 to get some help.
	Now that's interesting.
	911, not the police.
	Because 911 would be an emergency, but they're already dead, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So I I I I personally I thought that this was your uh older and younger brother, but it doesn't make sense if it's a female, right?
	Right.
	Uh uh was there a girl that you were close to when you were growing up.
	Um was her girl that I was close to like in the neighborhood or something?
	Not really.
	Uh yeah, I mean, or a cousin or or um anything like that.
	Uh yeah, yeah.
	Cousin, I would say.
	Close.
	And um tell me a little bit about her.
	Um never got married.
	Um actually became very religious.
	So maybe that has something to do with it.
	She became very religious.
	It works for the church, correct.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And uh when did you last have uh significant contact with her?
	Oh, from time to time.
	Yeah.
	We you know we have um holidays and like I mean, in terms of like being friends close by, seeing each other on a regular basis.
	Was it when you were kids or yes, when kids, yeah.
	Okay, got it.
	Okay, one hotel and one child.
	Um, another thing I was thinking maybe is because you know I'd been there from my mother's friend's funeral, but I also been to funerals of someone from a uh someone who's my age who died, and I went and saw their his his mother was there at the funeral.
	And I said, Oh, I'm sorry for loss to his his mother.
	So I was thinking that maybe could have been, you know, it's my mother's friend, and also my friend.
	So that could be the parent of the child.
	I'm sorry, I I missed that last bit.
	Your mother's uh your mother's friend and your friend.
	Right, right.
	So two separate funerals.
	Two separate funerals, okay.
	Yeah, two separate funerals, so this funeral this recent funeral is my mother's friend, and I gone to someone from my neighborhood and saw his mother there, and I said very sorry for loss, obviously.
	It's very difficult.
	It's a lot more difficult to say.
	You know, intended funerals and the parents are still alive.
	So I think maybe because it was the same church, I went to uh two funerals, one for my mother's friend, and then one for you know someone from my I went to school with.
	It's my age.
	Okay, so let me let me run something past you.
	It's a all all this stuff is a hit and miss stuff, right?
	So if it doesn't fit, you know, we'll try again.
	Okay.
	So let me tell you what I think, and you can tell me if it makes any sense.
	Okay.
	I think this is your mother and your father, and I'll tell you why.
	Mm-hmm.
	So your mother and your father said, You go to church, we don't need to go.
	And they are away from the church and they're embedded in the natural world.
	And by being away from the church and being embedded in the natural world, they're dead.
	They're not growing, they're not maturing, they're not honest, they're not direct.
	And you said your father's very very distant, right?
	Yes, yes.
	And you said that your father I almost found like I'm like, but you said, like I don't mean that so you said your dad was sort of, you know, this sort of silent generation was very sort of old, mature, Distant, you know, very uh was it authoritarian?
	Was it like hyper.
	It sort of reminds me of like the the guy who was my headmaster at boarding school who was like you know, like this god of of distance and and masculinity and stoicism, so to speak.
	Exactly.
	Yeah.
	And was your mother was she more playful?
	Was she or was she also stern and distant in that way?
	She was more playful.
	She'd play you know board games and stuff with us.
	So definitely she was the closer one to us.
	Okay.
	So two dead bodies, one adult and one child, brightly colored clothes, lying very still in the shallow water.
	So the brightly colored clothes, is that so that their the bodies are visible from the reflection?
	Because it's hard to see things in in a pond, right?
	Exactly.
	I think that's that's exactly why.
	So that I could see them.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Uh must be an illusion.
	Uh so kids can walk, they don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents.
	So this is like a break with your parents.
	Uh and and this was like a literal break with your parents, because they're like, you guys go to church, we don't need to, which was hypocritical and uh was not uh was not not a valid argument.
	Right.
	So the natural world is beautiful.
	But it has dead bodies in it.
	When you were a kid, did you believe in or think about the existence of the soul?
	Yes.
	Yes, because I was forced to go to church, so yes.
	So you you accepted that and you believed in it, right?
	Yes.
	Yep.
	Now, the soul to me is like a uh a very sort of spirited and animating principle of life.
	So when when people say so and so is soulless, it means they're kind of just sort of trudging through life without any particular joy, without any particular enthusiasm.
	And without a lot of spontaneity and playfulness and liveliness.
	Uh when people say so and so is soulless, that's sort of my associations.
	You may of course have different ones.
	I would agree with that, yes.
	Okay, so if that is the case, would you h how much or would it be fair to describe your parents as somewhat soulless?
	I would say Yeah, I got to notice that more when after they had retired because they didn't have especially my father, you know, like work was gone, so there wasn't anything.
	He wasn't that close to the family, he wasn't close to religion, he didn't have a job, so he'd started drinking more, basically watching TV most of the time.
	So that was basically a soul.
	Yeah, so that's definitely kind of soulless, right?
	Like NPC, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And what uh what industry did you or what area did your father work in?
	He was an engineer.
	An engineer.
	Okay.
	An engineer.
	And that that is mechanical, right?
	That's a certain amount of soullessness just in that, right?
	Right.
	I'm not saying like all engineers are soulless, but I mean in terms of like it being sort of mechanical, right?
	Yes, yeah.
	Okay.
	So they are away from the church.
	Don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents.
	Uh driven, of course, has two meanings.
	Well, at least two.
	One is to be driven in a car, the other is to be driven and enthusiastic, right?
	Right, right.
	What was your father's level of drive and like you think of someone like Elon Musk, who was like crazy drive and enthusiasm, right?
	Right.
	Uh, what was your father's level of drive and enthusiasm?
	In terms of drive, yes, worked very hard at his work, but also on the weekends always had a project to do something, whether it was fixing, you know, anything mechanical stuff, like the oven or dishwasher or something like that, or outside, so he was always busy.
	But then again, once after retirement, it's like fell out of a cliff.
	It was nothing.
	But was he enthusiastic?
	Not really, no.
	What was your parents' uh respective levels of joyfulness?
	That doesn't mean, of course, always being joyful, but level of spontaneity and joy and delight.
	Uh at least at times.
	When they were together with their friends, yes, they would be.
	Um, or sometimes when we have meals together.
	It was kind of hit or miss, but yes, they would be happy.
	Joyful.
	Or sometimes watching TV together.
	It's like a funny movie or sports sports.
	Okay, got it, go.
	Two dead bodies, one adult and one child wearing very brightly colored clothes lying very still in the shallow water.
	It must have been an illusion.
	An illusion.
	I mean, it wouldn't be a mirage, right?
	Because you're too close, right?
	So I'm trying to figure out what the illusion might be.
	Because I can just show you that.
	Well, I just couldn't imagine there would be two dead bodies in water.
	Very sure.
	I guess I've been there many times and bond.
	Like this can't be happening.
	And then you dissociate.
	I mean, almost completely.
	Because I mean uh the almost the interesting thing in dreams is to compare them to how you would act in the real world.
	Right.
	So at the beginning, let's just go back to the beginning.
	You are there with your son.
	And he's about the age that your parents stopped going to church, but you're there.
	Which means that's a deviation from what your father did, right?
	Right.
	And everything's kind of normal until you see the bodies, and then things go weird.
	Because if you did, if in real life you were down there and you saw a body, you would jump straight in.
	Right.
	In case they're still alive.
	Right.
	Like you wouldn't say, hey Tom, and you know, try and get his attention and then take off your socks and shoes.
	Like there's something very strange and slow that's happening here, which is your dream telling you this isn't real, but it's important, right?
	Because if it was real, if this is if you were down there or anybody was down there and you saw these these two bodies, you would immediately jump in, shoes, socks, doesn't matter.
	You would immediately jump in and try and pull the people out, right?
	Exactly.
	But you're doing like, hey Tom, and he doesn't see you, and and then you start chatting, right?
	Right.
	With with bodies in the water.
	And you don't tell him about the bodies.
	A close friend of your younger brother.
	Is he still a close friend of your younger brother, or was it just back then?
	Back then, they didn't see each other once in a while, but yeah.
	Thank you.
	Not when you're going to be able to do that.
	So I want to say I wanted to think when you say I want to confirm that they're real, did you think they might be mannequins or something?
	Yeah.
	Might be mannequins or something, you know, some ranked block done.
	Right, right.
	Yeah.
	There was a kid's plastic pail and shovel on the ground.
	And I picked up the little shovel and weighed it into the water up to my knees.
	Now do you remember, if if anything, what Tom reacted to you saying there are two bodies in the water.
	I just told him that and then walked by him and went and got the old in trouble.
	And I didn't see his reaction, though.
	And oh my god, like there's something very interesting here that are you pretending that the bodies aren't there uh earlier on, like what happens to the bodies when you're trying to get Tom's attention.
	Right, right.
	It's not, I didn't see anything about that.
	So you're covering up these bodies in a way.
	Right.
	So he has seen them or didn't notice, right?
	Yeah, because he hasn't seen them, right?
	Or hasn't noticed them.
	Well no, but you could point them out.
	Right, right.
	So what I think is interesting here is earlier I asked you.
	What did the priests or the other adults say about your parents not being there at church?
	Right.
	And you said, well, nothing.
	Nothing.
	That's correct.
	So the people embedded in the natural world who aren't going to church.
	Nobody's commenting, nobody's mentioning, not even you.
	Right.
	The they're not there people.
	Right.
	So you are covering up these bodies.
	Conspicuous by their absence.
	They're not in the church.
	They're underwater, but you're not sure if they're real.
	Right.
	So I called Steve and Erector.
	I don't know how does this sound.
	Maybe I just knew I couldn't save them.
	Is that uh maybe I'm not sure.
	Well, I think so this is always a big question that we have with uh just about everyone in our life that we didn't choose.
	Like you didn't choose your parents, right?
	Are they real?
	Are they real?
	Are they uh alive?
	And and the question of aliveness is you know sort of deep and powerful and interesting.
	And I think it has a lot to do with are they spontaneous?
	Are they thoughtful?
	Are they affectionate?
	Do they have access to their emotions?
	Are they real?
	Are they real people or are they just kinda robots, uh NPCs?
	Um not spontaneous, not genuine, not thoughtful, not curious, not connected.
	Right.
	Does that make sense?
	It does make sense, yes.
	Now for your parents to say absolute nonsense like we graduated from church.
	It's not even remotely credible, and of course, you know, I put all of my listeners at uh top one percent of intelligence, so and you knew that that was nonsense at the time, right?
	Right, but when my older brother had said so he got my father got very angry at him.
	I was like, don't question me.
	Just do it.
	Oh, so your older brother said, What do you mean you graduated from church?
	That's not a thing.
	No, he said, Well, why do we have to go if you don't go?
	And your father said, don't question me.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So your father tried to give a cover story, your father tried to give you something credible, but when it turned out that it was not even remotely believable, he got angry, right?
	Exactly.
	Very angry, yeah.
	Very angry.
	Which is often the case.
	He had a bad temper.
	Oh yeah.
	And how often would he get angry in say any given week or month?
	Well I think back to you know, Eddie Murphy talking about slavery.
	It's like, oh, people used to whip, you know, it's like, oh, once you see someone get whip, it's like, okay, I'll do it every year.
	I'll pick that cotton and just give it keep that keep the mug back with those whips, right?
	It was kind of like that thing.
	Like you didn't have to you just had to see once or twice, and it would come up once in a while, and you knew that you'd uh get a beating if if you crossed him, so yeah.
	What did he beat you guys with?
	Uh his hand.
	Okay, so it wasn't an implement guy, right?
	No.
	Didn't need it.
	It was big enough.
	Open hand, closed hand.
	Uh open, yeah.
	And how how was your mother's or what was your mother's reaction to these beatings?
	Uh need to keep the kids in line.
	I'm sorry, definitely.
	She supported need to keep the kids in line.
	She would do the same thing.
	So they both hit you.
	Oh yeah.
	And how often did you get hit uh by your mother?
	Um that was more random type of uh basically on her on her mood.
	She had had uh a bad day or something like that, it could trigger her off, and then yeah, she would take her cutting board and use that data with She'd hit you with a cutting board?
	Yes, but it had a handle on it.
	So that's pretty brutal, isn't it?
	Okay, so that your father's gone to they both had gone to religious schools and not beaten Up by the nuns, they both had talked about that as well in their childhood.
	Well, then they know how bad and unpleasant it is.
	Right.
	All right.
	So your mother's was more your father's is more sort of cold and angry, and your mother's was more volatile and emotional, is that right?
	Exactly.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So how much did you think the bodies were an illusion when you first saw them and you were trying and you were chatting with with Tom?
	I think I thought they were real, but I just wanted to confirm.
	I wanted to hope I was hoping obviously they were or wasn't real.
	But I just had to confirm that they were.
	Okay.
	Now the plastic pail and shovel, I don't quite f but the the the small beach the com the bright colored beach things, right?
	Right, right.
	Yep.
	And now you can only see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water, right?
	Right.
	And that would uh accord with your father being gone because he died earlier.
	Right.
	Like 15 years earlier than your mother, is that right?
	Correct.
	I reached down and held the child's little hand, and as I tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand.
	Like it had been there a while, so that's why the sand had had gone over it.
	Right.
	I started digging with a little plastic shovel, but I couldn't extricate her arm because she was wearing a sweater that was stuck or buried in the sand.
	Was your mother a sweater person, or does that have any resuments for you?
	Yeah, yeah, she was.
	Okay, so maybe this is the mother thing, okay?
	Right.
	I realized that I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself.
	So I turned back to Tom, who was still standing there by the side of the pool, asked him to call 911 and get some help.
	So I mean, I'm I'm on the other end of 911, right?
	Right.
	Uh because you you can't get to the dream on your own, and the dream is saying, uh call Steph, right?
	Right, right, exactly.
	Which arm, left or right from her um left.
	Was she left-handed?
	No.
	Okay.
	But I think it also might have been, you know, just because, you know, I was thinking of when I went to this funeral.
	I've been to a number of children's funerals too.
	So that could be it.
	Saying, you know, I'm not just here for my parents.
	But my parents' age, but there's also children's funerals I've been to, which is obviously a lot more impactful as opposed to one of my you know, parents' friends who's died at over age eighty.
	I think that also might have been coming up.
	And how horrible that's that's I mean, it's sad, obviously, when you go to someone's funeral, they're the friend of the family.
	But when it's a children, it it's unbearable.
	I mean, it's almost unbearable.
	Right, right.
	I think that might have had something to do with it.
	Let me the fact that my son was was in the dream as well.
	It's like, okay, people going up to parents and saying, I'm sorry for your loss, and there's their kid right in the casket.
	And that's just...
	Yeah, but there's no...
	I mean, yeah, but the child who's in there...
	Thank you.
	It's funny because things that are difficult or unpleasant that we know are difficult or unpleasant don't usually show up in dreams.
	It's the things that are difficult or unpleasant that we're not consciously aware of that show up in dreams.
	Okay.
	How um you said that your mother was was sort of more volatile.
	Did she did she grow up?
	Did she become more mature and wiser?
	It doesn't sound like that if she's just appeasing your older brother and doing the two or three days a week, even though she's exhausted, it doesn't sound like she got boundaries or mm negotiation or wisdom.
	And the fact that you said she had favorites, that's a child's perspective, like my favorite toy, uh my favorite uh blanket, or that that's a kid's thing to have these favorites.
	Right.
	Particularly with regards to to kids.
	Right.
	Especially your own kids.
	So the favorite thing is very immature.
	The lack of boundaries is very immature, and the volatile hitting is very immature.
	And the fact that she uh just appeased your brother and did not see your kids, it's also very immature.
	I mean, does it did she doesn't it doesn't say I don't want to put words in your mouth?
	It doesn't sound like she really grew up.
	No, you're correct, because even towards the end of her days, she'd always be complaining about how bad her mother was, some other than dead for 60 years or 50 years or whatever, yeah.
	Okay, okay.
	Alright.
	So your father was old before his time, and your mother never grew up.
	Right.
	And so you've got an old body and a kid's body.
	And it must have been an illusion.
	So are they real or not?
	Are they yeah, so I mean and I'm I'm trying, obviously, I'm obviously trying and keep my own family history out of this, but my experience with my family was trying to figure out if they were what I would consider alive.
	So people who are highly defensive, to me, are not really alive.
	That's the NPC thing.
	You say this, they say that.
	Right?
	Uh you bring up Trump, they get angry.
	You bring like uh I'm not saying that was your parents.
	But but those so with me, it was like, okay, is the person alive?
	Do they process things in the moment, or are they just defensive or justifying themselves?
	Do they adjust their behavior based upon what's happening in the world, or do they simply adjust their own defenses and justifications to do what feels better in the moment?
	Now, when your mother was acting unjustly towards you when she was spending all the time with your older brother's kids and no time with yours, right?
	Oh, yes, she said she said, only call me if it's an emergency, and what do you call what you do at the end of the dream?
	Call me emergency services.
	Yeah, call 911, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so only call me if it's an emergency is incredibly like I mean you you've been a dad, right?
	So you know little kids just say stuff that is incredibly insult.
	Actually, kind of had one on the live stream today.
	But but little kids say stuff that's like incredibly insulting, and they're just innocent of it.
	Right, right.
	Like, why why is Auntie so fat?
	You know, I mean, it's an innocent question, right?
	And so your mother, it seemed like was so immature that she didn't even notice when she said to you, or maybe she did, I don't think she did, tell me if she did, when she said to you, well, your your your brother's kids are really important.
	Your kids only call me if there's an emergency.
	I mean, that's such an insult to you and your family, but she sounds like almost innocent of understanding that.
	Right, right, yeah.
	We kind of thought it was narcissistic, but yes.
	Just revolving answer.
	But narcissistic is also a very early phase in life.
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, all early toddlers are narcissistic, because they they don't have the ability to think in terms of other people.
	Right.
	I mean, it would be like imagine a baby uh uh trying to reverse breastfeed the mother, like it's just not gonna happen, right?
	Because they're just their husbands, right?
	themselves and themselves alone.
	Right.
	Okay, so can I reach my mother?
	Is she alive?
	Is she conscious?
	Or or is she an automata?
	Is she like a robot or an NPC?
	Is there someone I can connect with?
	Or is she in such an early state of mind that I cannot impact her consciousness.
	It would be the latter for sure.
	Yes.
	Well, and with your father, when your older brother said basically this is bullshit, and he's like, Don't question me, kid.
	That is that is saying you can't be a curious thinking person in this relationship.
	Exactly.
	Exactly.
	And I'm going to intimidate or frighten you into being silent.
	Okay, so that also happened at the I was gonna say it also happened at the end of his life when we started to get him to stop drinking and just got extremely angry, leave me alone.
	I mean that's almost like a death wish, right?
	Right.
	I'm sure that his doctor said you've got to stop smoking and drinking, or you're not gonna last.
	Exactly.
	Yes.
	Every year.
	Okay.
	So you say hi, Tom, and you try to get his attention and so on.
	And so you as a kid could not figure out you could not take the risk of figuring out whether your parents were alive or NPCs.
	Because you were still under their control, right?
	Right.
	So when did you first um consciously begin to think that your parents were not very spontaneous or lively or alive in the way that we're talking here?
	I would say as my brother got older, he would question more, and then it'd be like, whoa, wow, that's that's a great point.
	I you know, you would get to the point, especially when we start becoming a teenager of questioning things, and then sort of the uh realization that this is not the way you should be treated him or us, you know, my brother or it's right, yeah.
	Right.
	I also don't want to forget this big challenge that's happening in the dream, which is your son vanishes from your mind.
	Right.
	Right?
	Because your son's there, and there's also dead bodies there, right?
	Right, right.
	Now and and also you just walk like you completely forget about your kid, even though wouldn't your kid be in a parking lot or or where cars are?
	So I was in the parking lot, he was walking by the street and he's going down the road, so he was leaving.
	Right.
	So so this indicates that it's something to do with fatherhood, but not your fatherhood, because if it was your fatherhood, if your kid was walking down the street, you wouldn't go down to the pond, right?
	Right, right.
	Right.
	You'd call your kid over and say, hey, hey, I want to show you this pond.
	This is like I spent a lot of time here as a kid and all that kind of stuff.
	Right, right.
	So you just let your kids can walk.
	Oh, that's interesting.
	Because walk also has these two meanings.
	Dreams are great this way.
	Walk means just to obviously step from place to place.
	Kids can walk, you know, like it means leave.
	Right, right.
	Like if if you don't give us raise, we're gonna walk.
	Right, right.
	But go on strike.
	The kids can walk.
	And don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents.
	And then he he leaves the dream and never returns, right?
	Exactly.
	You don't know where he's going, you don't know, right?
	Right.
	So this indicates that it's about fatherhood, but not your fatherhood.
	Because if it was your fatherhood, you'd call your kid over or you'd go with your kid, right?
	You wouldn't just let him wander off.
	Exactly.
	And then never think of him again, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you see this dead bodies, and this is around the time that you started going to church without your you're sent to church without your parents.
	Yes.
	So are they alive, or are they just making up stories to win in the moment or dominating or brutal or do uh do they have empathy?
	Maybe that's sort of the question.
	Right.
	We don't want to go to church.
	You kids need to go to church.
	And we're gonna give you an obvious lie, like we've graduated from church, which is not a thing.
	So do the do they have uh uh do they have empathy?
	Because if they don't have empathy, then they're kind of emotionally dead because to have empathy is to genuinely feel what other people feel and negotiate this self and this other and it's to have sort of a rich and deep communicative relationship and so on, right?
	So if they don't have empathy because they're in the opposite of the church and kind of soulless, it's really tough for kids to figure out oh it's actually quite dangerous for kids to try and figure out whether their parents have empathy.
	Because if you wake up to the fact that they don't have empathy, it's really scary.
	And so you see these bodies, but you don't want to check if they're alive or not.
	You don't want to check if they're real or not.
	You're just chatting with Tom, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	But in that in that period where you are not able, in that period where you're unwilling to just jump in the water and figure out if they're alive or dead, you're invisible to others.
	And that's how the deadness spreads.
	So for kids, if your parents are NPCs, if they're if they lack empathy, if they're just kind of narcissistic or they're like automata, then while you are avoiding this knowledge, you also lack empathy for yourself and others.
	So you're invisible.
	So they're dead and you're invisible.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	Because Tom is walking towards you and is like not noticing anything, right?
	Not at all, right.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	This is very surprising.
	Sorry, what do you mean?
	That he didn't recognize me and especially being so close and then walking right by.
	Yeah.
	Well, but here's the fascinating thing, and it's all fascinating, but here's the fascinating thing.
	You keep saying his name and you're invisible, right?
	Right.
	But when does he know that you're there?
	When I say my name.
	When you say your name.
	So when you're focusing on others, you're invisible.
	When you tell him your name, he says hello, and you m you you materialize, right?
	Right.
	So that means that you had some kind of connection as a teenager, I think.
	You had some kind of connection as a teenager that gave you the strength, and maybe this is your older brother, right?
	But you had some kind of connection as a teenager that allowed you to begin probing your parents' emptiness and lack of compassion, lack of empathy.
	They're deadness.
	Now you said that Tom was a friend of your younger brother, and your younger brother refused church earlier, right?
	Yes, or maybe my parents just gave up on pushing me to do it, but one way or the other you stopped going.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so your younger brother defied your parents, right?
	Yes.
	And they didn't escalate with him, right?
	Correct.
	As much.
	Okay, so your younger brother defies your parents and shows their weakness or their lack of principle.
	So in other words, when your younger brother defies your parents and they don't escalate with him, it means that they don't care about any principle, they only care whether they have the energy and desire to escalate.
	And where they didn't with your younger brother, it means that all of the things that they said, why they were hitting you, well, to teach you respect or to teach you discipline, none of that meant anything.
	They only did it because they had the energy and the strength and they wanted to do it.
	And then with your brother, they didn't have the energy and strength or want to do it.
	Right.
	And so they didn't do it.
	Exactly.
	So it means it it it was only about power, it was never about principle, if that makes sense.
	And perfect sense, because it was um quite shocking that he was able to get away with it when we weren't.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay, so when you say your name, you become real to him.
	And you start talking, you don't have any idea how long you talked, did you?
	I was just very short on Hi, how you doing?
	How's everything going?
	Yeah.
	So then it's very interesting.
	You start taking off your shoes and socks to get in the water.
	Why are you doing that?
	It's too cold to go in the water.
	Two bodies lying under the water.
	I told Tom that I wanted to confirm if they are real.
	So it's interesting, of course, to confirm if bodies are real or not, to take off your socks and shoes, you roll up your pants and all that kind of stuff.
	Exactly, exactly.
	Right.
	I mean, that's quite delicate in a way, right?
	Uh-huh.
	So the kid's plastic pail and shovel on the ground, picked up the little shovel and waded into the water up to my knees.
	Looked down at the water, can only now see the child's body.
	Did you uh did you have any direct conversations with your father before he died, or did he mostly die with the the distance between you?
	Uh died with a distance between us, yes.
	Okay.
	And did you have any more luck or any more folk I don't know how long you've been listening to what I do, any more luck or more focus talking to your mother before she died?
	Uh no, after she got sick, I started listening to you, so I didn't get that chance at the time.
	Um sorry, I thought she was sick for five years, did I get that right?
	Yes, yeah.
	She had time.
	Right.
	That's interesting, because you kind of despawned a little there, right?
	I would say what does it despawn mean?
	Sorry, despawn means that um I was asking you a question and you made an excuse, which is you remember earlier I said like you know, you're just making stuff up and it's kind of tough to to penetrate.
	Because when when we start talking about your parents uh you you get very abstract and deflecty.
	Right.
	So I said, Did you have a chance with your mother to talk to her before she died?
	And then you said, well, I didn't have time, but she was she was sick for five years.
	Yeah, time, right?
	Right.
	Time, yeah.
	So so this making it.
	It was memory issue, so I mean having a conversation was no meaning.
	Oh sorry, she had Alzheimer's.
	Oh, she had Alzheimer's.
	Okay.
	And for how long does she have Alzheimer's uh sorry?
	Was the getting sick Alzheimer's from the beginning?
	Uh yes, it was just started with like dementia and then went into full-blown Alzheimer's.
	So that was over a period of eight or nine years, maybe ten, yeah.
	Oh, okay.
	She lasted quite a bit longer than the average.
	So was she beginning was she getting progressively more childlike as she went forward?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay, so then that would be why she's a kid in the dream.
	Right.
	Because she would only remember, she got to a point where she forgot our names, she could only remember her parents'names or her siblings'names.
	Oh, so if she can't remember her children's names but can remember her parents' names, that specifically is little girl stuff.
	Right, like I have to be home for dinner, you know, or my parents were in the stuff like that.
	Oh, yes, definitely.
	Yeah.
	Okay, then I would say for certain.
	If your father vanishes from the dream, and your mother is is a little girl, and she died um having regressed considerably back into her childhood, I think that and she then the sweater, I think is another is another issue.
	Okay, so you told Tom you wanted to confirm if they're real.
	So let's play this out as if this were real, like a real right.
	So you believe in the dream, you must believe that they're dead, right?
	Yes.
	Because otherwise you wouldn't be wasting time or or like you would just dive in and try and pull them out, right?
	Right.
	So wanted to confirm if they're real.
	Kids' plastic pail and shovel, weighed into the water up to your knees.
	Look down down into the water.
	Only see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water.
	I reached down and held the child's little hand.
	And as I tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand.
	I started digging with a little plastic shovel, could not extricate her arm.
	Why?
	The hand was sticking out, but the arm was under the sand.
	Right, right.
	Now why did you want to extricate her arm in the dream?
	To get her out of the water.
	Why did you want to get her out of the water?
	Because the purpose was not to get them out of the water.
	The purpose was to confirm if they're real.
	Right.
	So once you've established that they're real, why wouldn't you then turn and say, call 911?
	There are real bodies here.
	So you reached down and held the child.
	Now did you hold the child's hand to find out if it's if it's real or plastic or a mannequin or something?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	So you reached down and you held the child's little hand.
	Now, I gotta tell you, I don't think I'd do that if it was a real body.
	Right.
	What about you?
	I don't think I would touch it skin to skin.
	No.
	I don't know what the hell it died of, right?
	Trying to help, right?
	Well, but that that's what I'm trying to figure out, right?
	I reached down and held the child's little hand.
	So you've when do you when do you realize that it's real?
	When do you realize the bodies are real?
	When you look down in the water.
	I'm sorry?
	Let's see.
	I'm trying to think I want to make sure I get this correct.
	So you wade into the water.
	Right.
	You get you pick up the little shovel and you b pick the shovel.
	I assume you pick the shovel because you don't want to touch the bodies.
	You want to poke them and see if they're real, right?
	Right, right.
	And also in case I need you to dig them out, I guess.
	Well what do you mean dig them out?
	Why would you dig out the bodies?
	It could be no, seriously, it could be a crime scene.
	Right.
	You shouldn't be disturbing this.
	Right?
	So this is what I'm trying to sort of puzzle here.
	Are they real or not?
	Okay, first of all, you could just dial 911 and see if they're real.
	You could ask Tom, what do you think, or anything like that, right?
	Right.
	Because personally, if I saw things that I thought were two dead bodies, I'd just immediately call 911.
	I wouldn't go in there and disturb it, because again, it could be uh uh a crime scene.
	So you go in and you see the child's body, you can't see the the older guy anymore, right?
	So you see the child's body lying on the ground under the shallow water.
	So then you know it's real, right?
	Right.
	I know it's real.
	So reach down and held the child's little hand.
	Uh does that remind you of your mother dying, or did you hold her hand while she was dying or anything like that?
	No.
	No.
	Were you there when she died?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	And you didn't hold her hand?
	Uh no.
	No.
	It was uh a couple of us around uh bed and it was I guess out of it.
	Um why wouldn't you?
	I'm just curious.
	I mean, I assume you had some affection for your mother or you were there.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Took care of her for half a decade or whatever, right?
	So I'm just there, yes.
	Why wouldn't you hold her hand?
	And it's not a criticism, I'm just curious.
	Right, because she was completely out of it.
	So why why does that mean that mean you shouldn't hold her hand?
	No.
	I shouldn't.
	I mean, don't you hope someone's holding your hand when you're dying.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, none of us did.
	We just we just stood there.
	What about was there any level of physical affection between you and your mom when she got older?
	Yes.
	Yep.
	I see you hiked and all that kind of stuff.
	Oh yeah, yeah.
	Okay, but you wouldn't hold her hand.
	I don't recall.
	When she's dying.
	No.
	I'm sorry?
	Maybe maybe one of my brothers did.
	Right.
	Because you're dead, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so I reached down, held the child's little hand, and as I tried to lift her hand, I could see that her arm was buried under the sand.
	Why do You want to pull the arm out.
	So I think it's still, if I remember, it's hard to go back and because I that's why I wrote it down right away.
	Is because I thought I could still you know maybe do mouth to mouth or something.
	I don't know.
	If that's true.
	Well because I could actually bring her to the shore and then but then you're kind of a murderer.
	Right.
	Right?
	Because if you see them and then you're like, hey Tom, and you chat, and then you take your socks off and then you kinda go in slowly and because it's kinda cold and right.
	If you think that they might still be alive, then you want them dead.
	Right.
	Right.
	And so your dream you your dream by setting it up that there are bodies under the water.
	That's all already that's urgent.
	Right.
	And so you kinda dilly dally, and that to me is like you as a teenager trying to figure out whether your parents can be reached with reason or not.
	Whether they're alive, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Um did your did your parents um did they ever have any deep conversations, life, meaning, virtue, or was it mostly small talk?
	Most of small part.
	Okay, so that's why it's shallow work.
	Because you they could be a thousand fathoms deep and dream could take you down there, no problem, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Um why it's not because you think they might be alive.
	Why are you trying to lift the hand?
	And what's the emotion when you see the the girl?
	It's similar to when I had gone to one of the funerals of the a child's funeral.
	Horror.
	Yeah.
	Horror and just uh kind of shock and just like an emptiness of wow, this this shouldn't be happening, right?
	Again, if it's an older person, yeah, that's natural, but this definitely shouldn't be happening.
	Okay, so your motz sometimes volatile people, I sort of think of the Italian cliche, right?
	Sometimes volatile people can be very warm hearted.
	Right.
	And was your mother uh would you characterize her as warm hearted, medium or cold hearted?
	I would say for the most part warm hearted, yes.
	Okay, but if she was warm hearted, then why would she say things like only call me regarding your kids if it's an emergency?
	Because that's very cold that's very cold hearted, right?
	Right, right.
	Like these things are just come up once in a while, these these things to shock us would happen once in a while.
	Okay.
	And it's also cold hearted to hit your children with a cutting board.
	Right.
	That's that's cold, right?
	Yeah.
	That's like mafioso cold.
	Okay, and that's why the water is shallow and cold.
	I see.
	Held the little child's hand.
	Held is interested.
	And I I know that so I know that there's the dream and then there's the language you're using about it, and there's sort of two layers.
	So you would grab the hand if you thought you would gr you wouldn't hold the hell holding the hand is a gesture of comfort.
	Right.
	Or affection.
	If you think that she might still be alive, you would grab the hand and yank, and you wouldn't be digging with a little plastic shovel.
	Right.
	So so that's what I'm trying to figure out here is to hold the child's little hand.
	You try to lift her hand, the arm is buried under the sand, so digging.
	With a little plastic shovel.
	But I couldn't extricate her arm.
	I realized I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself.
	I don't think that's true though, because you could.
	Right.
	What if it was still stuck under the sand, I couldn't get it out, right?
	Well, um you could.
	Because you would simply I mean, again, if you sort of think of it in the side.
	Just dig a little, yeah.
	Well no, you don't need to dig.
	It's a child.
	Right.
	And she's she's she's not like you don't just see the tip of her nose, right?
	Right, see the whole body.
	Yeah.
	You see the whole body, so you would just Grab her sweater and lift her up.
	Right.
	And I know, like you get your foot stuck in the mud and it can be tough to pull out.
	I mean, but you didn't even try, right?
	Correct.
	So how do you know that you can't pick the child's body up and place it on the shore by myself, right?
	Because the digging thing is interesting.
	Okay, so you're digging.
	Um what was your relationship with your mother like over the last say ten years of her life?
	Oh, it was just getting progressively worse from an assisted living to memory care to nursing home.
	Those three stages.
	Yeah, that's not what I asked, though.
	I didn't ask how did she decline or what was her medical condition.
	Right.
	What was her relationship?
	Uh just trying to keep her as comfortable as possible.
	What was your relationship?
	Not like what did you do medically?
	Did you get any closer?
	Did you talk?
	I mean, she didn't lose her mind right away.
	It was a slow pro decline, I assume.
	It was a slow decline, yes.
	I mean, was their affection, was their stories, was there you know, I mean, if she was aware of her condition, I assume she was to some degree, was their comfort was like what was the same as a few years.
	Yeah, there was comfort.
	We would yeah, we would show up and uh with the kids and you love to see us and was always happy, you know.
	I could but it was also, you know, part of the fact that she couldn't drive around herself anymore, so was relying upon us to show up, and in that case, it was you know I kind of joke with my wife, oh we'll go see her in an emergency, right?
	But of course, we would see her uh on a regular basis.
	So you had to drive to go and see her.
	She could correct herself.
	Correct.
	Right.
	And that's funny on a life at the beginning you say kids can walk and don't need to be driven everywhere by their parents.
	But your mother needed to be driven everywhere by her children, right?
	Exactly.
	Doctor's appointments and shopping and things, yeah.
	Okay, and were you of of the three boys or the three men, were you the primary caregiver?
	Uh we split it up between myself and my brother.
	Uh the older or the younger?
	Uh younger.
	And the older one came out most of the attention didn't do a whole lot to help out when she was sick.
	Okay.
	And so you and your younger brother split it sort of 50-50, give or take?
	Uh mostly, yes.
	I'm sorry, you mumbled out there at the end.
	What was that?
	Yes, 50-50, mostly.
	Okay.
	And your older brother who got the free babysitting for years didn't do much.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	Did you love your mother?
	Yes.
	What did you love?
	What virtues of hers did you love?
	Umhearted for the most part, except for these emotional explosions that would happen from from time to time.
	Um, she was uh she was basically compared to my father, she spent a lot of time with us.
	I think that was helpful, you know.
	Made me more feel like part of the family.
	Playing games and cards and board games and things like that.
	Mm-hmm.
	Did she give you any wisdom?
	Um she would push us to study harder, push us to work ethic.
	I mean, wisdom, like how to live, how to be good, how to negotiate, how to deal with life's challenges.
	Like wisdom.
	Lessons that she gave you that you still find a value to this day.
	Not a whole lot.
	We get to basically self-study for that.
	When we pick up things from her, I mean her and my father stayed together.
	I mean, they were, you know, there wasn't uh, you know, financially or you were middle class.
	It wasn't uh wasn't any horror show in that sense, which I had seen some from my friends.
	Well, but that's just that's just money.
	Um did you uh and your wife, did you use corporal punishment with your children at all?
	Uh at the beginning, yes.
	And uh we thought It was the right thing to do.
	Sure, sure.
	And how old were you?
	How old were your kids when you start?
	About uh first, second grade.
	Maybe six or seven.
	And how often was it spanking?
	How often did you spank them?
	Uh infrequently, just uh something went really wrong.
	Okay.
	Now if your mother had been babysitting your children and you came home and uh you found them sort of sobbing and crying with bruises on them, and she had hit your children with a cutting board, what would you think?
	I would be extremely angry.
	Right.
	For sure.
	Did you ever express because that's what happened to you, right?
	Did you ever express your anger towards your mother of how she treated you?
	Not in a serious conversation, though.
	Once in a while we take uh, you know, make kind of snide remarks about it, but no.
	Didn't have a real conversation about it.
	Why not?
	Um why not?
	Yeah, that's just kind of a the feeling that that's the way her parents treated her, so that's the way she would treat her kids.
	Well, then there'd be no reason for her for you to get angry if she hit your children with a cutting board because that's how she was treated.
	Like, why would you get angry?
	You'd have all this understanding, wouldn't you?
	Right, right.
	And you'd say to your kids, well, you know, grandma still gets to babysit you and she's gonna hit you again, but you know, she was hit as a kid, so you know, just suck it up.
	Maybe maybe in in 30 years you can make some snide jokes about it.
	Right.
	So why did she take all this forgiveness with reg I'm sorry?
	Definitely lost opportunity to have that discussion.
	It's dishonest.
	Right.
	If you I mean, why are your kids so much more important than you as a kid?
	Why would your kid why would you be outraged if she beat your kids, but not you're not outraged that she beat you?
	Well, I was very angry when it happened and you know, held that for a long time for sure.
	Okay.
	Why not tell her?
	Why not tell her?
	Because it's lying.
	Right.
	By omission, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	I mean, if you were doing something that enraged your wife, would you want her to hide it from you for 40 years?
	Definitely not.
	You'd want her to tell you, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	So why not tell your mother?
	She get upset again, I guess.
	Well, so what?
	What's what's wrong with her?
	I mean, I'm not saying in the later stages of dementia, but what's wrong with her?
	Um what's wrong with her being upset?
	Right.
	I mean she beat you with a cutting board.
	She has no problem upsetting others.
	So what's wrong with her being upset?
	She has no problem solving.
	Yeah.
	That's a good question.
	I don't know.
	Now, do you know who we don't tell the truth to tell the truth to um children, I guess?
	That's right, little kids, right?
	Right.
	So you were treating your mother or your mother was milking this, I'm a little kid.
	Right.
	I can't handle the truth.
	It'll be too and we the reason we don't tell the truth to little kids is because they can't handle the truth, right?
	Right.
	So I still you're saying basically I still can't treat you as a child.
	Well, even before she had the dementia, she had power over you because she was pretending to be a child.
	which is not uncommon for women.
	Amen.
	So you as an adult, you cannot budge a little girl.
	She's stronger than you.
	Does that make sense?
	Uh yes, yeah.
	You've got to do this little plastic shovel digging, as opposed to just grabbing her and pulling her out of the water, right?
	Right.
	So she's stronger than you, right?
	A woman's strength is her pretend weakness, a man's weakness is his pretend strength, blah blah blah, right?
	Right.
	The kid's plastic pale and the fact that, okay, was your mother like a uh a fussy keep it close clean kind of mom?
	To some extent.
	Not not too over the top, but yeah.
	Well so I mean if if you were going to go waiting in a pond, would your mother wants you to take your shoes off?
	Right.
	So you take the shoes off because you're around your mom and you you kinda dig a little but you she's she you can't move her or you know because she's wearing the sweater as your mom did.
	Right.
	And so you have I would assume and this is true for most men but you have a weakness with regards to the feminine which is that you won't treat females as strong capable and equal and your mom ran the relationship by pretending to be weak because you wouldn't tell her the truth because it might upset her.
	And again that's what we do with little kids.
	Right.
	Right?
	I mean you wouldn't show some little kid the the Charlie Kirk assassination video because they couldn't handle it right?
	Right.
	So you treated your mother as a child which is why you lied to her and and wouldn't be honest and direct about what you'd suffered at her hands.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	That seems to be what's going on here as well yes in the dream.
	I realized that I couldn't pick up the child's body and place it on the shore by myself.
	So I turned back to Tom, who was still standing there by the side of the pond, asked him to call 911 to get some help.
	Yeah, so this is stuff that you need to see.
	And my gosh, I mean, this is a very common phenomenon in society.
	I have it, you have it.
	Like, which is like if a woman, you know, you know the old thing, like a man cries, everybody like, you know, walk away, right?
	A woman cries, everyone's like, oh, how can we help you?
	You know, like women gain, women have immense power by pretending to be weak and childlike.
	I mean, your mother got to escape the blowback and the just anger of you, not just for how she treated you as a child, but for how she treated you abominably as an adult.
	Right.
	You know, the asshole brother, I'm all there for him, but you now only in an emergency because you're nice.
	Definitely.
	She informed and complied and rewarded the selfish guy and the two brothers who actually cared for her.
	I don't know what, we haven't really talked about your relationship between your mother and your younger brother.
	But she, man, she got away with it all.
	She got to be a complete hypocrite and send her kids off to church.
	Never got called out by the congregation.
	Never got called out by the priest.
	Never got called out by anybody.
	Right.
	Right.
	And then she, she got to appease the elder brother and be with him, the favorite, the favorite kids, even though it exhausted her.
	She got to insult your family by seeing you once or twice, even though she lived only 45 minutes away.
	Thank you.
	got to insult your family by saying no no I'm there for them two or three days a week but for you only in an emergency and again that's the kind of quote innocent childlike stuff that women pull and it worked she got to go from birth to grave never being confronted for the wrongs that she did.
	Right and I think that 911 definitely is the uh ties directly to the emergency only an emergency yes and I think and uh you we don't have to get into this because You know, that's something that you can mull over.
	But I would say that your mother died uh was it four or five years ago?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So there's something going on in your life, maybe it's your mother in law or something like that, or maybe it's a female boss or something.
	But there's something going on in your life where female power is invisible to you.
	And the female power of I can't handle it.
	I mean, that's what hate speech is, right?
	Hate speech, the whole thing is just, well, you can't tell the truth to women because they'll get really upset.
	Right.
	Right?
	So I mean, or maybe it's got something to do with the fact that Charlie Kirk just got fucking slaughtered for upsetting people.
	Right.
	And uh so maybe there's something that's going on culturally or oh, sorry, when did the dream happen?
	Uh a couple of weeks ago, August.
	Okay.
	All right.
	But I mean, it's certainly in the air.
	I don't know if you were listening to me, like I was uh for weeks before, and it was a funny kind of coincidence, but for weeks before Charlie was murdered.
	Um I was saying like you do maximum philosophy until they're just about to kill you and then you pull back.
	Oh, maybe you heard shows I think you pull you pull back to avoid the violence.
	Right.
	I mean, that that was certainly the way that I was heading.
	I mean, I knew that from the bomb threats and death threats, right?
	So you you do that that's why I did five years in the wilderness, right?
	So you you do maximum philosophy until they're just about to kill you, then you pull it back, and then you know, hopefully you can advance again.
	And certainly, you know, since I was gone, a lot of things have moved forward that were wildly shocking uh when I first brought them up, and now people are accepting and absorbing them.
	But yeah, if you're too far ahead.
	It's like in a war, right?
	If you're too far ahead, then the arrows they shoot at the enemy hit you in the back because you're too close to the enemy, right?
	You have to wait for the army to catch up, right?
	So there's something that's going on, I think, where the female power of pretend excessive vulnerability is dominating you in s in s in some way.
	So it also get hit in school by women teachers.
	I'm sorry?
	Yes.
	And I'm like, just call it a teacher also had a paddle that had the words hot on it and hit the kids.
	Right.
	Right.
	And and I and I don't know if you've been on social media, but uh there's I mean, I I talked about this sort of feral nature of women these days, is that women say, well, because I'm upset, I can use violence.
	Right.
	And whether that's personal violence or the violence of the state, right?
	Which is this speech is upsetting me, we need to ban it.
	And I think and and I think this is a dream that is is common to men in the West, right?
	I mean Andy Tate was replying to one of my tweets the other day where he was saying that white men are have got to stop listening to women because you know they're just leading you down the garden path, and other races don't listen to their women and look how they're flourishing.
	And you know, this is all I don't want to get into the truth or falsehood of that statement, but that is that the question of what the hell have we done in the West that women have so much power.
	Like I saw this um there was a cartoon today which was uh, you know, adulterous in in the Bible days, you know, getting stoned, right?
	And now adulterous in the modern age, the adulterer and i uh the the wife they get alimony and they get the house and like the guys living in the car.
	Like the amount of of female power in the West is staggering.
	Because you know, they outvote, they outlive uh and and they um the absolute thing.
	More goodies from the state, you got the national debt and and you know, all of this language policing and tone policing and the wokeness is just female nature plus the state, right?
	So um this sort of pretend weakness stuff is uh is really uh i is just absolutely dominating the West, which is I'm so vulnerable that if you upset me, I'm gonna scream at you.
	Right.
	And it's like if you can't manage your emotions, you can't be part of adult conversations.
	And if you're that volatile, then you shouldn't be making any important decisions.
	So given the state of things today, I guess the real question is See, my mother's long known but how do my sons navigate this situation?
	Well, yeah, that was my sort of question, which was about your sons and their their dating life.
	Because your sons are gonna meet women who are gonna try and play them this way.
	Right.
	And if you brought your sons up to be more conservative or whatever, which is very much the case with most young men these days, they're gonna run into these hyperleftist women who are going to be incredibly manipulative and and play victim and control them and as your mother did, right?
	You can't tell the truth to your mother because she'll just get too upset, right?
	And thus you're treating her as a little toddler and that and then but she's not a little toddler.
	She's treating you you're treating her as a little toddler, and therefore she has all the power.
	Right.
	And you're doing this in the world of nature because Christianity is quite uh masculine, right?
	And gives you I mean the whole Adam and Eve thing, right?
	And and the dangers and temptations of of the female and so on.
	And so you're not in the church, you are vulnerable to female the pr the pretense of female victimhood.
	Right.
	And and if you're not aware of that, and you your sons saw all of this, right?
	So if you're if your mother got sick ten years ago, then your son your sons were in their early teens, right?
	Correct.
	And so they saw throughout their entire psychosocial sexual development uh and all of that, they saw you cuck into your mom.
	Sorry, to put it so bluntly, but they saw you deferring to your mom, doing everything for your mom, having no needs of your own.
	Only saying her name, not yours, as you did with Tom in the dream.
	That he only noticed you when you said your name.
	Ignoring your own children.
	Right, because you've got a son at the beginning of the dream and you completely ignore him.
	So in my view, right, uh i you know, one thing to look back on is to say.
	What did I teach my sons about female power if I took care of the woman who beat me and who married a man who beat me and who applauded him beating me, and who insulted my children and had favorites and played favorites?
	And I just surrendered half their childhoods to take care of this woman without having a single fucking need of my own.
	Not even the need to be honest.
	I self-erased in order to serve the manipulative pitiful feminine.
	Right.
	And what is that taught my sons about male and female power and authority?
	I've I mean I never expressed anger to my mother for how she abused me.
	Right.
	In most places in the West, if your mother went when your mother hit you with a cutting board, she'd go to jail.
	These days, yes.
	Right.
	And that's what you felt when you thought of your sons being hit by your mother.
	Right.
	So women get off scot-free because women dominate and dictate the conversation.
	And I'm really it's not personal to you, of course, I'm completely sick and tired in the West of men deferring to everything that women say they want.
	Sure.
	But yes, they're definitely.
	Did your wife say you need to have an honest conversation with your mother before she dies?
	Or before she gets too too um too too mentally compromised with her Alzheimer's.
	She did point out the issues that you mentioned.
	And did she encourage you to resolve them?
	Uh she encouraged me to behave differently.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	So then why would you choose your mother over your wife?
	Oh my wife wouldn't stand for that.
	Well she said you need to behave differently.
	Did you behave differently?
	So we had actually moved away for a few years.
	And then when I moved back to the area, it was the Alzheimer's and so to started.
	So during that previous one.
	Good Lord, man.
	Good Lord.
	You know you we're talking on the phone, right?
	Well, you can't have important conversations on the phone.
	You phone her.
	Come on, man.
	Don't give me this nonsense.
	Like this is the this is the bullshit that men do.
	Makeup shit.
	Well, I didn't have time.
	It's only five years.
	Well, we moved away.
	Like I can't use the Pony Express.
	Come on, man.
	Jesus.
	Reach down between your legs.
	Feel those sacks.
	Of course you could have called her.
	Of course you could have had that conversation.
	I could have, yeah.
	Right?
	So your mother wanted you what?
	She wanted you to be more honest and direct with your mother?
	Your wife?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And did you?
	After we moved back, yes.
	But again, it was the uh yeah.
	It didn't have quite the effect, obviously, with uh the memory issues.
	Sorry, you were more honest and direct with your mother on the outside.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you're not sure.
	I thought you didn't really talk to your mother about her beating.
	Well, it was more like it's more like she didn't want to move out of her place, you know, but that was just one of the things.
	No, no, no.
	I'm talking about your actual emotions and experience with your mother.
	Okay, so that's what I mean.
	So if you're if your wife wanted you to be more direct with your mother, and your mother obviously didn't want to have that happen, and you conform to your mother against your wife.
	That means you chose your mother over your wife in that instance.
	Right.
	Just like your mother chose your brother over you and your younger brother.
	Right.
	So conforming to the least mature person and ignoring the advice of the more mature person, you don't want to model that for your kids, but you have in some way.
	And listen, I'm just pointing out that I'm sure you did a million things right as a dad.
	I'm just pointing out what your dream might be saying to you.
	Thank you.
	It's a definite lesson.
	I'm sorry?
	It's a definitely a good lesson.
	Yes, it definitely need uh need a reminder.
	Read a book, read a book called Man's Fear of Women.
	Okay.
	It's a very good book.
	It's a very good book and well worth uh reviewing.
	Because uh you don't want your sons to grow up with this level of deference, right?
	Because if your sons are treating women as if they're sort of these frail, fragile beasts that can't be disturbed, then the women will run roughshod all over them and these days that's very hazardous, right?
	Big time.
	For sure.
	All right.
	How do we do?
	Great, great.
	Uh like you said, there's some of these things I just couldn't suss out what it meant in the dream, but it's extremely helpful for you to uh provide this feedback and insight.
	Good, good.
	I I would say talk about this with your wife because she's gonna have a better uh an infinitely better view of it than I did, and and hopefully if there's anything that uh important that we missed, I hope you'll drop me a line and I really do appreciate your time tonight.
	It's been a while since we did a dream, but this was a really great one.
	Yes, thank you, Seth.
	So much appreciated.
	All right.
	Thank you.
	Okay.

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