Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - Consciousness Without Form...
Aired: 2025-09-05
Duration: 06:29


=== Consciousness Without Material Form (04:05) ===

[00:00:00]  Okay.
[00:00:00]  Now, God, as a concept, is the idea that there's consciousness without material form, at least in this universe.
[00:00:09]  Is that fair to say?
[00:00:11]  Okay.
[00:00:12]  Now, have you ever had a conversation that does not involve consciousness?
[00:00:20]  In other words, do you think that I'm a teapot or a soap dish or a bubble or something like that?
[00:00:26]  Or, I don't know, Bell Dauphin's bathwater or something like that, right?
[00:00:31]  So you and I having a conversation because we both accept that we have rational consciousness.
[00:00:39]  We share the same language.
[00:00:40]  We are having a very productive conversation.
[00:00:43]  So there's nothing self-contradictory about what we're doing.
[00:00:49]  And the idea that I would be having a conversation with someone where no physical consciousness was involved would be completely weird, wouldn't it?
[00:00:59]  Like, can you imagine if I was somehow, like, let's say you were calling from next door, right?
[00:01:03]  And I'm like, oh, you're next door.
[00:01:04]  I'm going to come on over.
[00:01:06]  And it went over and there was just a computer that was turned off and nobody was home.
[00:01:12]  Like, that would be kind of weird, right?
[00:01:13]  Like, I'm having a conversation with you with a consciousness, but no one's there.
[00:01:18]  Like, that would be, I would be like, okay, this is a joke, right?
[00:01:21]  Because I can't have a conversation that doesn't involve physical human consciousness.
[00:01:27]  Does that make sense?
[00:01:29]  Yes, it does.
[00:01:30]  Okay.
[00:01:30]  So if people are going to say, oh, no, I'm having a conversation with consciousness for which there is no material form, I'd be like, yeah, that's not a thing.
[00:01:41]  That's like saying that there's gravity without any mass or there's light without a light source.
[00:01:47]  Like that, that's just not a thing.
[00:01:49]  That's just not something that is real.
[00:01:51]  All consciousness requires material form because consciousness is an effect of the physical and material brain.
[00:01:58]  And we know that because we never have conversations with any kind of consciousness that we can test that does not have a physical brain as its source.
[00:02:09]  Does that make sense?
[00:02:12]  Yes.
[00:02:12]  Okay.
[00:02:13]  And then people also say, I'm having conversation with an all-knowing God, right?
[00:02:19]  Well, that's pretty wild, right?
[00:02:21]  Because all-knowing, I mean, that's knowing everything past, present, and future, right?
[00:02:26]  Now, that's very testable.
[00:02:28]  So if somebody says to me, I'm having a conversation with an all-knowing entity, I'd be like, wow, that's pretty cool.
[00:02:36]  I had a dream last night.
[00:02:38]  What was it?
[00:02:39]  Because God would know, right?
[00:02:42]  So that's a test.
[00:02:43]  Somebody says, I have direct access to all knowing consciousness, to an all-knowing, omniscient, all-knowing consciousness.
[00:02:50]  We're like, oh, I had a dream last night.
[00:02:52]  What was it?
[00:02:53]  Now, do they ever give me the right answer?
[00:02:56]  No.
[00:02:56]  Well, would that make any sense?
[00:02:58]  If somebody says, I have access to all-knowing consciousness, say, oh, well, here's a tough question.
[00:03:05]  Or what was my first birthday cake made from?
[00:03:11]  Right?
[00:03:12]  God would know that.
[00:03:13]  Or what is the price of Bitcoin going to be like tomorrow at 12 p.m. Eastern Standard?
[00:03:18]  God would know that too, right?
[00:03:19]  So if somebody says, I have access to omniscience, then you would simply ask them to ask that omniscience to answer a question that that person couldn't possibly know, right?
[00:03:29]  That's a pretty easy test, right?
[00:03:33]  And has anyone who claims to have access to omniscience ever been able to answer a question that they couldn't possibly know?
[00:03:42]  No.
[00:03:43]  No.
[00:03:43]  So that's a test, right?
[00:03:44]  So you have consciousness without material form, which is impossible.
[00:03:49]  And you have a claim of a direct access to omniscience, which is never proven.
[00:03:56]  And you have both omniscience, which is knowing everything, and omnipotence, which is all-powerful.

=== God's Omniscience and Choices (02:23) ===

[00:04:05]  Now, the problem is, of course, if God knows everything, past, present, and future, then God can't change anything.
[00:04:14]  Because if he can change it, he can't know it.
[00:04:16]  Does that make sense?
[00:04:19]  Yes.
[00:04:19]  Like, if I was in prison, I'd know where I'd be tomorrow.
[00:04:23]  In prison, because I can't change that.
[00:04:26]  But I'm not in prison, just a mental prison, man.
[00:04:29]  But I'm not in prison, so I don't know exactly what I'm going to be doing tomorrow, right?
[00:04:33]  Now, if God knows everything past, present, and future, then God can't change it.
[00:04:38]  But if God can't change what he's going to do or anyone is going to do, then he's not all-powerful.
[00:04:46]  So if God knows everything, he can't be all-powerful.
[00:04:49]  If God is all-powerful, can do and change anything, then he can't know for certain what everything is going to be.
[00:04:56]  If God says we have free will, like you and I are morally responsible for what we do because we have free will, but God knows exactly what we're going to do, do we have free will?
[00:05:07]  No.
[00:05:08]  It's like if a train goes down the tracks from Chicago to Detroit, right?
[00:05:16]  And there's a train track, right?
[00:05:17]  Okay.
[00:05:18]  So the train goes from Chicago to Detroit.
[00:05:20]  Can it go anywhere else except from Chicago to Detroit or back again?
[00:05:27]  It's on the train track, right?
[00:05:29]  It can't go anywhere else, right?
[00:05:32]  So if I say to the driver of the train, the conductor, no, the conductor is one in the back, the driver of the train, I can't remember the name, there's some technical name.
[00:05:42]  So if I say that the train is leaving from Chicago and going to Detroit, and I say, it's totally immoral if you end up in Detroit.
[00:05:52]  You've got to go on this train track, but it's totally immoral.
[00:05:54]  You're an evil person if you end up in Detroit.
[00:05:56]  Does that really make any sense?
[00:05:58]  Doesn't.
[00:05:59]  No, because God, no choice.
[00:06:01]  There's a train track, right?
[00:06:03]  So does it make any sense to morally condemn people who have no choice over what they do because God knows exactly what they're going to do?
[00:06:16]  I'm sorry?
[00:06:17]  I'm listening to you.
[00:06:18]  No, does it make sense to condemn people for that which they do not choose?
[00:06:23]  Yes.
[00:06:23]  Okay.
[00:06:24]  So hang on.
[00:06:25]  But if God knows everything we're going to do, do we have a choice?