Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux - Helping Parents Who Suffer! Twitter/X Space

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July 31, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:24:45

Helping Parents Who Suffer! Twitter/X Space

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	Hey, good evening, everybody.
	Hope you're doing well.
	21st of July 2025.
	Sorry, had to start the space three times before X appeared to pick it up.
	But we are alive and kicking.
	And I'm happy to take your questions.
	Critics, if you've got a criticism of me or what it is that I propose or argue for, hopefully a little bit more along the lines, rather than my, say, personal hygiene or toe painting habits, if you've got issues with anything I've said or criticisms, things you disagree with, happy to be corrected, happy to be set straight.
	We are on a mutual journey towards truth.
	And I look forward to your questions and comments.
	All you have to do is request as Monsieur Shaman has done, all right?
	Shaman, Doc Webb, Shaman, no less.
	If you want to unmute.
	How you doing?
	Good.
	How you doing?
	Doing pretty good.
	Just got some salmon cooking here.
	Let's see.
	So you had said, you had a tweet the other day about drugs.
	And I don't know if it was specifically about weed or psychedelics or what, but you know, the ancient Greeks, they did partake of specific elixirs.
	Sort of, you know, mushrooms and ergot and that kind of thing.
	And I think the place we would agree is that those are not chemicals that should be used like willy-nilly.
	They should be had.
	I'm sorry.
	Sorry.
	I just interrupt.
	So just help me understand.
	So what's the purpose of bringing up that the ancient Greeks, some people in the ancient Greek world did drugs?
	What's the point of it?
	Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with you.
	Of course they were.
	I sort of said this is part of like an apotheosis of philosophy.
	I don't know if anybody ever did philosophy better than, well, in my personal opinion, the pre-Socratics were probably the best, but that's sort of my standard is the ancient Greek philosophy.
	Okay.
	And do you know if the ancient Greek philosophers themselves did drugs?
	Well, yeah, a lot of them did because there was a cult of Eleusis, and that was part of the initiation rite.
	That was just a normal part of life in ancient Greece.
	So Plato never.
	So you're sorry.
	So your argument, and you know more about this than I do, so obviously I'm going to rely upon your expertise.
	So your argument is that the ancient Greeks did drugs.
	They were good at philosophy.
	Therefore, drugs help philosophy?
	It's not that, I mean, they can't.
	Yes.
	It's not that black and white.
	I don't think anybody, I don't think everybody should do them.
	I think there should be allowed for an exclusive priestly class.
	Perhaps someone like yourself with much.
	Oh, God, no.
	I'm never doing drugs.
	Like, never in a million years.
	Like, no, never in a million years.
	Because listen, I mean, okay, so let's say that, let's say that the Beatles, Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds is, as people think, Lucy Sky Diamonds LSD, right?
	So let's say that the Beatles did a lot of drugs and produced their fantastic album, Sgt. Peppers, right?
	So then you might say, well, drugs facilitate creativity, right?
	Now, of course, they were creative before they did drugs.
	They were creative after they did drugs.
	And there are, of course, literally billions of people around the world who do drugs and aren't producing albums like Sgt. Pepper.
	So I'm concerned that you have a causality problem.
	I would agree with that.
	It's not a panacea, but I would say just like with a, you know, a rocket ship, you need a certain kind of fuel.
	If you put a rocket ship in a car or a curve, but analogies, hang on, but analogies, analogies are proof.
	Okay.
	So have you done a lot of drugs?
	Not a lot.
	You know, the thing about psychedelics is a lot of times you just have to do it one time.
	That's it.
	Okay.
	So you've done psychedelics, right?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So if psychedelics facilitate philosophy, tell me about the logical or rational or syllogistical arguments you got out of doing drugs.
	Well, you know, I would say that they aligned me a lot more with Nisha and Machiavelli.
	You know, they speak a lot about being in the moment.
	And Nisha specifically is sort of an anti-philosophy, right?
	So he is much more about the here and now, the present moment.
	And that's sort of what I, what was my takeaway from drugs is that, you know, we're much.
	Wait, your takeaway from drugs is the present moment?
	Yeah.
	Because, you know.
	How is the present moment philosophy?
	How is the present moment philosophy?
	Well, if we, we spend, people spend a lot of time thinking about the past and the future, right?
	Maybe even too much.
	And it might be better for them if they spent more time doing what they could today.
	And I would say, actually, most mental illness stems from people ruminating on things from the past or things that could happen in the future.
	No, not true.
	You all think so?
	No, no, that's not.
	No, I know that's not true.
	Most mental illness stems from child abuse.
	Oh, you know, you might have a point there.
	That's definitely.
	I definitely, I'm not right about everything, obviously.
	This one, this one, I know I'm right about.
	Now, if you had drugs, if you took drugs and drugs facilitated the pursuit of truth, then why wouldn't you have noticed that mental illness comes from child abuse because you took drugs?
	Like, why is that a surprise to you if drugs facilitate?
	I do not mind me playing devil's advocate here, right?
	Okay.
	So given that I think it was a surprise and you recognize the truth in what I said, that it is child abuse that fuels most mental illnesses, not whatever ruminating on the past or the future and all of that.
	Then if drugs, I haven't done drugs and I've understood that you have done drugs and that hadn't crossed your mind.
	So who's the better at understanding causality, at least in this particular realm?
	Well, you know, I think drugs, you know, if somebody is abused as a child, they can have a sort of tension or sort of a confusion in them.
	And, you know, studies have shown that drugs like India are great for treating PTSD.
	So there's something happens with that abuse either in childhood or actually it can happen later in life too.
	Soldiers, they go to war, they have abuse that happens and they come back and they have PTSD.
	And the studies have shown that, I mean, it's not a perfect treatment, but if you take something like MDMA or ketamine, that that can be used to help treat a mental illness.
	What do you think about that?
	Well, it's being researched and it's also been used in combination with psychotherapy.
	I don't know how, and it's also severe PTSD, and I'm not sure how long the effects last.
	I think there have been some issues around the length of the effects.
	I wouldn't be surprised if that was.
	But here's the thing.
	But let's say that MDMA is an effective treatment for PTSD, right?
	I think that there's some doubt about that, but let's just take that as a given, that MDMA is a good treatment for a PTSD.
	But that's not how people take drugs.
	And then that's not what we would refer to as taking drugs.
	Oh, right.
	Yeah, I would totally agree.
	Right, because that would be like when you conflate or put in, well, there's medical reasons to take these drugs, and you put that in together with people who are just frying their brains for a while.
	Oh, no, no, no, no.
	No, no, hang on, hang on.
	No, you brought it in.
	I was brought it in.
	No, no, you're right.
	Bro, bro.
	Bro.
	They had a very measured and very controlled.
	Can you hear me at all?
	I'm not even sure if you hear me.
	I can't hear you a little bit.
	Okay, because, oh, you can't hear me much?
	Yeah, I can hear you now.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Who brought up MDMA?
	I brought up MDMA.
	Okay, so when I refer, so when you talk about taking drugs for enlightenment or philosophy or whatever, discovering the here and now, and then you bring up MDMA as a treatment for PTSD, you are, I think, willfully and I think kind of sneakily trying to conflue two things.
	I think bro, let me finish my thought.
	Okay?
	Because if drugs made you wise, you should be wise enough to have a conversation without interrupting someone constantly.
	So if somebody is on heavy painkillers, right?
	They're on opiates.
	Now, if somebody's taking opiates recreationally, we would call them a drug addict.
	However, if somebody's just had back surgery and they're on opiates, we would not call them a drug user.
	We would call them taking medical treatments for the sake of pain to give themselves a chance to heal, right?
	Yeah, we completely agree.
	Yeah, if somebody is taking marijuana because they're going through chemotherapy and it helps control the nausea and not for listening to Dark Side of the Moon while watching The Wizard of Oz backwards, right?
	Then we would say that they are medicinally using.
	We completely agree.
	Okay, so it's dishonest to bring in medical treatments into a conversation about recreational drug use.
	I wasn't talking about recreational drug use at all.
	Yes, you were.
	You seem confused.
	No, I'm not confused.
	I recently brought up the rights of Eleusis in ancient Greece.
	That was not recreational.
	That was very controlled.
	It was closer to a medical, something that was the closest thing that we would have to a medical treatment today.
	So they didn't just let it go.
	Hang on.
	You said that the purpose of these drugs was to get you into the now.
	That's not a medical treatment.
	No, I said that the ancient Greeks had a very controlled ritual at the mountain of Eleusis and that that is much closer to a medical treatment.
	I'm sorry?
	A treatment for what?
	Well, what would they say?
	They might say soul sickness.
	Oh, come on.
	Oh, come on.
	Do you read it?
	You can't fuck around with terms this much.
	It's disorienting.
	Right.
	So you can't say, well, I'm talking about medical treatments, and it's like they were soul sick.
	That's not a medical treatment.
	Well, they wouldn't consider it a medical treatment back in, you know, 400 BC in Greece.
	They wouldn't see it that way.
	They wouldn't consider it a medical treatment.
	That's correct.
	Yes.
	I think that's a more, it's a very sort of over-analytical, sort of institutionalized view that we have today, that things that maybe back then that would be considered a malady of the soul are just considered something wrong with your brain.
	That's how we have a very material sort of perspective here in modernity.
	Okay.
	So what you're saying is that there's something wrong with the human brain that drugs fix.
	In some cases, yes.
	Well, in which cases, how do you know?
	How do you know ahead of time which human brain is sorry?
	I'm still talking.
	How do you know ahead of time which human brain is somehow broken or has the wrong balance of whatever, whatever, so that it can be fixed with drugs?
	And how do you know which brain is already functioning fine and to which drugs will be a negative?
	That's a great, that is the question.
	That's the question.
	Right.
	So how do you know?
	I don't know.
	I've got a long time to think on this.
	I'm not a doctor.
	I'm not a priest.
	I'm just a guy.
	So you're, you're talking about the positive effects of drugs.
	You're pushing drugs in a way, but you don't have any idea whether they're good or bad for people, and you have no way of telling.
	I know they're good and bad for some people because we've already established that, haven't we?
	Well, yeah, but you're just saying that drugs are good in general.
	Oh, I never said that.
	So they get you into the here and now.
	The best philosophers in history used them.
	And is that not talking about the positives?
	Well, that was the elite.
	So the normal Greek population was not allowed to use the potions of Eleusis.
	And actually, there were a few different cases where people tried to copy the potion that was used at Eleusis.
	It was always a very closely kept secret.
	It was a verbal tradition.
	It was never written down.
	And sometimes people tried to make it and they took it and they died.
	So it was not something to be taken lightly.
	It was always something that we had to be planned out very carefully, very meticulously.
	Okay, so how did the ancient Greek priests know who was going to be enlightened and who was going to be damaged?
	That's a great question.
	I don't know the answer to it.
	I would have to be a priest of Eleusis to know the answer to that question.
	Come on.
	Do you think they knew?
	Oh, well, yeah, I think they had a better idea than I do.
	They had no idea, man.
	They didn't have brain scans, MRIs, blood tests.
	They couldn't peer inside the skull.
	They had no clue.
	Unless you're going to say that they brained their gods.
	Hang on, hang on.
	Hang on.
	Still talking.
	still talking.
	Sometimes.
	Still talking.
	And they're even the most advanced medical controls.
	Okay, that's just the most unmitigated bullshit I've heard in a while.
	And Lord knows I've heard some bullshit in my day.
	Listen, I mean, in all seriousness, don't push drugs, kids.
	Like, don't push drugs.
	Don't fucking push drugs.
	Don't talk about how great they are.
	Ancient mysteries, Elysium rituals, Greek philosophers, enlightenment.
	Don't push drugs.
	Don't have that shit on your conscience, bros.
	Don't do it.
	Don't do it.
	Don't have that stuff on your conscience because you're going to sit there talking about, oh, cool.
	Ancient Greek philosophers, man, enlightenment.
	And somebody's going to fry their fucking brain.
	And it's going to be on you to some degree.
	Don't do it.
	Don't push this shit.
	And you certainly don't push this poison on my channel.
	And if this guy has learned so much from his drug use, why is he unable to answer a question?
	Why is he unable to stop interrupting?
	Why is he unable to tell me any particular insight or syllogism or philosophy that he got out of taking drugs?
	In my view, he fried his brain.
	And because he fried his brain, it's almost like the drugs fried his brain.
	And then the drugs are using his fried brain to jump to fry other people's brain, brains.
	And I view the brains of my audience, if not mankind as a whole, as far too precious and treasured a resource to put in these stupid, cowardly bullshit drugs.
	Stay in reality.
	Now, I get that people say, well, I think too much, I worry too much about the future and I think too much.
	I ruminate on the past.
	Okay, look, these are all challenges.
	And these are all challenges that all of us have.
	I say this, you know, with great sympathy.
	It's an Aristotelian meme, and it's a balancing act in life.
	And there's no clear or certain answers.
	It is certainly true that we can worry too much about the future.
	It is certainly true that we can ruminate and regret on the past too much.
	Absolutely.
	And these things can be a problem.
	How do you solve that problem?
	That's another challenge.
	Now, it is also true that some people live way too much in the present.
	Way too much in the present.
	In fact, addicts, by definition, spend way too much time in the present.
	They don't think about the future that much, and they're not learning from the past.
	Think of alcoholics.
	Are they thinking about liver damage in 10 or 20 years?
	Nope.
	Are they remembering all of the things they've lost, all of the nights they've lost, all of the terrible decisions they've made, all the cars they've totaled when they're reaching for the next drink?
	Nope.
	They're just thinking about the now.
	So the past, the now, the future is an Aristotelian mean balancing act.
	You don't want to think too much about the past or future, because I agree, then you're not really living in the present.
	However, you also don't want to ignore the past and the future because the future is just another present we have to live in later, right?
	So I think about my future.
	You know, I did a lot of work today, brothers and sisters, let me tell you.
	I got up and I went through a bunch of video shorts and posted them.
	And then I worked for like an hour coming up with the perfect tweet for publishing my theory of ethics, universally preferable behavior.
	And then I spent about an hour answering questions.
	And then I wrote a new chapter of my book.
	And then I basically just kind of passed out on the couch for a little bit.
	And then I sort of woke up and I was chatting with my wife.
	And we played a game of Catan and I had a little food.
	And before we played Catan, or during Catan, I went and exercised.
	And boy, did I not want to exercise?
	Like I was feeling pretty mellow and I just, I really didn't want to work out.
	But, you know, I didn't work out yesterday.
	And I don't mind working out twice in a row, like two days, but I don't want three days.
	Like I don't want two days gap.
	So I didn't work out yesterday.
	I had to work out today.
	So I just didn't want to do it.
	Now, why do I do it?
	Because the future is a place I have to live if I'm lucky.
	And I want it to be a future of, you know, strength and competence and health and all of that kind of stuff.
	Like I'd sure, I mean, I'm very lucky that I'm not one of the 40% of guys with back problems, or I don't know what percentage of guys with knee problems, but backs and knees are a problem because we're still half quadrupeds and we're still, our body's getting used to.
	And did you know that the fact that we're vertical is actually one of the reasons we have our big brains?
	Because we're vertical, we get less hot in the sun, so we don't need as much water.
	So there's more water available for our brains to function.
	So the fact that we're bipeds walking upright is one of the reasons we have our big brains.
	So I don't want a future with back pain.
	I don't want a future with knee pain.
	I don't want a future with weak bones.
	I don't want a future.
	I want to be able to, you know, still, I just, I did a, a couple of months ago, I did a wind sprint with my daughter.
	Like, I still want to be able to do that kind of stuff.
	Still want to be able to play pickleball and ski if I, if I want to and all of that kind of stuff, right?
	So you don't want to regret the past perpetually.
	You don't want to worry about the future or think about the future perpetually.
	Daydream, right?
	Daydream instead of achievement, aka video games.
	But at the same time, you know, this big insight that we want to live more in the present, sure, whatever, right?
	But that's not philosophy.
	That's, I don't know, that's like fortune cookie goop.
	So, and I've heard these arguments a million times before.
	I'm sure I'll hear them a million times again.
	And I don't want to immediately dismiss people right away, right?
	So I don't want to immediately say to people, you're full of crap.
	It's not true.
	It's not valid.
	I don't want to say that.
	And I can't tell you how many hundreds and hundreds of people over the last 40 years who say to me, hey man, drugs, they just open up your third eye and they give you a view and a perception and a depth and ah, it's 20 years of psychotherapy in one night.
	It's always the same druggy Vegas voice.
	And I'm like, oh, cool.
	Okay.
	So tell me what big insight, what philosophical syllogism, what great advancement in the field of ethics or epistemology or metaphysics or politics or science, what great advancement did you?
	Oh, and it always turns out to be something completely trite.
	Well, it's important to live more in the now.
	It's like, sometimes, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.
	And for those of us like the ICE people, those of us who come from colder climates, our ancestors didn't do so fucking well when they lived a whole lot in the now, right?
	Grasshopper and the ant style, right?
	You know, that story: the grasshopper sits around playing guitar and figuring his ears all summer while the ant is laying up food for the winter.
	And then the grasshopper starves and the ant stupidly lets him in, thus, I'm sure, endangering the ant's entire family.
	But our ancestors, if they just, hey, man, we lived in the now, like, that's fine if you live in the tropics, whatever, right?
	You don't have winter, you don't have winter to contend with, and you can't really do much about the dangers you face because they're mostly viruses and bacteria.
	So, which a lot of which are killed off in cold climates over the winter.
	So, so just this big insight is important to live more in the now, man.
	It's like, well, I mean, yeah, sure, sometimes.
	And sometimes it's really bad to just live in the now and not plan for the future.
	So it's not much of an insight.
	It's not, you know, it's sort of like the big blinding insight.
	It's like, you know, you don't want to not exercise because, you know, then you get soft and flabby and your bones get weak, man.
	But at the same time, man, you don't want to exercise too much because you injure yourself, man.
	Wow.
	Big brain.
	Take, it's like bowling with a giant bowling ball of brain matter, knocking down the pins of ignorance.
	So, yeah, I mean, and people are like, well, I have to take drugs, man, because it's too hard to get these thoughts and insights on my own.
	I'm like, okay, well, what thoughts of what thoughts and insights did you get from drugs?
	Well, you know, that you don't want to love too little because then you're cold-hearted, but you don't want to love too much because then you're like stalky.
	Anyway, and less than 5% of people who take drugs are under the care of a doctor.
	So, and I really dislike this conflating medical treatments with recreational drug use.
	All right.
	Steve.
	Steve.
	What's on your mind?
	Barrel White Style.
	Oh, boy.
	Hey, are you there?
	Generalized.
	Something, something.
	Generalized.
	Going once, going twice.
	Hey, can you hear me?
	Yes, sir.
	Go ahead.
	Well, I guess I had a question.
	And sorry, what's your username?
	What's your username?
	What's my username?
	Yes, what's your username?
	Well, it says specify generalizations.
	So are you being snarky with me?
	With my username or right now?
	Yeah, you're kind of being snarky with me.
	So the reason I need your username is that there was somebody else there, and I wanted to make sure I didn't dump you, but the other person, I don't know who's talking.
	Oh, sorry.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	No, I'm specified generalizations.
	Yeah, no need to be snarky with me, but I'm just trying to run a show.
	But anyway, go ahead with your question.
	Well, you brought up video games just now, and I was listening to what the other guy said before about drugs and all that stuff.
	I wanted to know, what are your thoughts on video games?
	Can you be a little bit more specific?
	Well, in what context?
	Sure, sure, sure.
	Do you think that they're particularly stupid or malicious?
	Do you think they can be productive?
	Do you think they can be useful?
	What do you think when you see a grown man who has children?
	He's playing video games at home.
	So he has children and he's playing video games at home?
	Yes.
	Is he playing video games with his children?
	No.
	Okay.
	So listen, video games, I've played video games.
	I mean, I won't say my whole life because I was around kind of before they were around, but I've played video games and I've enjoyed them a lot and I've got a lot of fun out of it.
	And I've played with friends.
	I've played with my daughter.
	The game of Catan that I play, I play with my wife.
	We play on a tablet, right?
	So we both on tablets.
	So I think video games are a lot of fun.
	I think they can be social.
	I think they can be engaging.
	I think they can be enjoyable.
	Because there are some things that are bad in and of themselves, you know, like arsenic.
	There's not a moderate amount of arsenic you should take, right?
	Just don't touch it at all.
	There are some things that are beneficial, like you never really overdose on wisdom and knowledge and virtue.
	And then there are some things that are in the middle, right?
	Like you need a sort of middle ground.
	So if somebody doesn't want to play video games, I don't think that that's harmful, obviously.
	If somebody, as most teen, hang on, as most teenagers are playing like 20 or more video hours of video games a week, that's messed up, man.
	That is messed up.
	That is not getting out in the world.
	And the problem with video games is that they rewire your brain to believe that there's an achievement that isn't real.
	It doesn't translate into things in the real world.
	And so I think that they're fine recreationally.
	I don't play much.
	I actually bought the new Doom game like a month or two ago, and I haven't got around to playing it.
	My daughter and I play some Rocket League, which she's way better at than I am.
	I mean, this is not a game that really translates too well in my brain, but I do my best.
	I'm the goalie.
	I'm the goalie because she's the scorer.
	So if it's stuff you're doing with family or with friends and kids and all of that, I think that's great.
	But I think if you're doing it too much alone and you're doing it for too long, then it becomes a substitute for actual achievement that translates into things in the real world.
	So sorry, go ahead.
	All right.
	So basically everything in moderation.
	I feel like that's kind of the gist of what you're saying.
	No, no, no, not everything in moderation.
	Remember I said that there were things that were bad in and of themselves?
	So not everything in moderation, right?
	Not axe murdering and arsenic in moderation, not rape in moderation.
	Yeah, yeah, let me let me rephrase video games in moderation.
	They're okay.
	It could be a good thing.
	Yeah, I mean, listen, I mean, for shy people, it can give you something to talk about.
	I'll tell you a story.
	One of the things that I have a problem with with regards to video games is that, you know, when I was a kid, I mean, we were all broke.
	I lived on a sort of welfare council estate and all the kids were broke.
	And so one of the great challenges that only in hindsight did I realize how important it was was we would get together and we'd try and figure out some Game.
	And then we'd have to figure out the rules.
	And we'd also have to figure out how to enforce the rules.
	So I write about this in my novel Almost.
	We had these epic battles with like old tennis balls, or, you know, if you saw someone and pointed to them and you said bang, you hit them, and so on.
	Right.
	So we had a very elaborate game for rules, like for war games.
	Like you could be an airplane and you had to drop these sycamores.
	And if they hit kids, then they were bombed and like just really wild stuff.
	And that whole process of figuring out the rules and enforcing the rules in sort of creative games was really important because it taught me a lot about negotiation.
	Now, the problem with, and you've had this, I'm sure, when you were a kid and you play tag and you tag someone and they say, no, no, no, it was just my t-shirt.
	It wasn't me, you know, whatever it is, right?
	They, this doesn't, it was just my hair.
	It just got long hair.
	It doesn't count.
	And, right.
	So, and then you argue about the rules and arguing about the rules is really important in life because it teaches you how to negotiate.
	The problem, I think, with kids' activities these days are also structured, right?
	You go to Chuck E. Cheese, you go to a theme park, you go to a whatever, bouncy castle, and everything's kind of structured.
	And the kids aren't arguing, negotiating, or debating about rules and how to enforce them.
	And like the thousands of hours I spent, not just playing, but arguing and debating about rules, I think was really important and certainly gave me an idea for a stateless society where people could negotiate the rules.
	Because if we could negotiate rules and enforce them as kids without a centrum umpire or coach or adult telling us how to enforce the rules, then if kids can do it, adults can do it.
	And we don't need sort of system that we have now.
	I think that was very helpful.
	And of course, video games, there's never any argument about the rules because the rules were enforced by the video game and the server.
	So like there's no, I hit you.
	No, you didn't, right?
	Because the computer tells you.
	So I think that's sort of a bit missing.
	But sorry, go ahead.
	I think we lost him.
	Christopher, what's on your mind?
	I know there's a little bit of a delay here, but I'll be patient.
	I'll be patient, zero.
	Christopher, go once.
	Hey, I'm sorry.
	I'm driving and my car was a little strange.
	Can you hear me okay?
	Are you okay to talk while you're driving, bro?
	Oh, yes, sir.
	I have it on the dashboard.
	Okay, go ahead.
	So just looking for maybe a little piece of advice.
	First of all, glad you're on X, as it were.
	I've been enjoying reading some of the stuff you're saying.
	Thank you.
	Thanks to our Lord Musk.
	I'm rematerialized, so go ahead.
	Yeah.
	So my wife and I have been in a bit of a rut, I think, for the past few months.
	A little bit of backstory is just that my eldest son is severely autistic, and we do a lot of therapy and these sorts of things.
	And it takes a lot of time and energy.
	And I think oftentimes a lot of our conversations after they go to sleep and during the daytime revolve around this.
	And it feels often that we're kind of more like co-workers than we are, I don't know, married and in love and this sort of stuff.
	And I keep trying to find a way to bring this spark back into it.
	And it's, I don't know, things feel overwhelming.
	And I'm not sure if it's just a season in our life or maybe there's a practical way to set those two things apart and keep us on a good path.
	Gosh, I'm so sorry to hear about that, Christina.
	Sorry, Christopher, what's the story with your son?
	How old is he?
	What's happened with his development?
	And where is he at now?
	He's six years old and he has apraxia, which means he can't speak.
	He also stims pretty uncontrollably, which makes it very difficult for Oh, stimming is he lacks the ability to control his limbs in a lot of ways.
	So sometimes he just sort of spazzes.
	And so it's very difficult for him to be around other kids.
	They don't, his age, they don't understand that they try to talk to him.
	And so we're, and he also has like this desire.
	And I've heard from other families that have children of this nature, they just sort of bolt, you know?
	So, you know, there's like locks on every door.
	And so there's this heightened level of just kind of anxiety that exists about our son, you know, running away or running into traffic if we're not holding him very tightly.
	And so it's, this is sort of this cloud that hangs around everything all the time.
	And I'm certainly grateful for my son and I love him, but it's, I think it's a little difficult sometimes to do regular life on top of it.
	And I'm rambling a bit.
	I'm sorry.
	No, no, you don't have to apologize for anything, for anything.
	I'm, again, my heart goes out to you, like father to father and man to man and just soul to soul.
	And I'm so sorry for this.
	So he doesn't speak.
	Do you think that he understands?
	Has there been any, I mean, I'm sure he's been tested.
	I mean, has his IQ been tested or what are your thoughts about his functionality?
	We haven't done an IQ test.
	It is difficult to understand.
	I think it's difficult for me to decipher exactly how much he understands based upon his attention span.
	And, you know, look, just because he's autistic doesn't mean he's also not a kid, you know, and kids can be, they don't listen sometimes.
	They do things, you know, in direct confrontation of what you've told them to do.
	But it's hard to parse it.
	One thing that we have found as a therapy that's worked miraculously so far is this thing called spelling.
	And it sort of shocked us.
	Like two years ago, someone advised us to go into it.
	And he'd never, you know, he'd never really spoken a word.
	And we read them this book and we had this big map that had the alphabet on it.
	We asked him questions and he would just go ahead and spell out the answers.
	I'd never seen him write a word or anything else like that, but he would, the very first word he ever spelt at four years old was fire truck when we asked him, you know, what this is on a page.
	So that was sort of surprising.
	So I know he's in there and he's, I think he's really intelligent, but it's the day-to-day stuff that is complicated.
	And he also doesn't like doing it at all.
	You know, he's a kid.
	He doesn't want to sit there and spell words on a board.
	Well, how do you normally communicate with him?
	One thing we do a lot is I sort of talk at him.
	And I don't mean that in the sort of pejorative, but I kind of will go out for walks and I sort of explain what my mindset is and whatever's on my mind is a topic or something I think I want for his future or these sorts of things.
	And it usually starts off a little clunky where I ask a question, how was your day?
	And then I realize, well, he's not going to respond.
	He really enjoys rough housing.
	So we spend a good 30, 30 minutes a day usually.
	Like he likes to jump on the trampoline and then we do wrestling.
	He likes to be tickled and we have a big crash bat and I'll throw him off the bed into it and that sort of thing.
	He likes to be active.
	And you said the other kids.
	So how many kids do you have?
	So I have two children, the six-year-old and a four-year-old.
	And the four-year-old, he, for all intents, as far as I can tell, is not anywhere on the spectrum.
	He seems like a fairly normal kid.
	And so that's, you know, nice.
	And how is, it's a son, right?
	How is how is your four-year-old's relationship with your six-year-old?
	Really good.
	It's unique.
	You know, like he knows, he doesn't really talk about it a whole lot.
	You know, I think to him, it's maybe it's normal.
	I don't know exactly, but he will talk to him all the time.
	And, you know, they get in little stats sometimes and pretty normal.
	But he really enjoys being around him and wrestling.
	Sorry, do they play together?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, they'll chase each other around the house.
	It's usually instigated by my youngest son.
	He'll, you know, he'll tag him and try to get him to chase him around.
	And oftentimes my oldest doesn't really want to do it, but he just keeps kind of laughing and needling him.
	And then eventually they'll both start laughing at playing.
	And so that's nice.
	But they couldn't do anything like board games or anything like that, right?
	No, no, not currently.
	No.
	And do you know what the, again, it's always impossible to tell, I suppose, but what is the prognosis for your six-year-old?
	Well, you know, it depends on who you ask and who you talk to.
	There's a sort of a cabal of maybe that's a bit harsh, of this approved therapy called ABA and their approach to things is, you know, yeah, you probably will never talk, but, you know, what we need to teach him is how to act and be around people in society.
	And so they work on very functional, practical things.
	And so sorry, like what would they work on with your son?
	You know, not basically not yelling at the top of your lungs.
	You know, part of the problem, too, is that he lacks some control over his nervous system and sort of his actions.
	So sometimes he'll just sort of make a loud noise very abruptly and it's kind of, you know, it's upsetting to other people.
	So they try and find ways to get that down as well as try and teach kids to sit for prolonged periods of time instead of actively like just jumping up and down or moving about.
	And they're very practical things, which I think are beneficial, but they don't seem to work very hard on.
	I know you asked about the prognosis.
	The prognosis is that they just say that he is what's called L3 Autistic and that he can't speak.
	But they've given me nothing else since then about whether or not.
	And is he in school or is he home all the time or how does that work?
	So he goes to a school currently, which is designed for autistic kids that are on the, they're less, you know, there's high functioning autism, but not what he has.
	So he goes to a school that's built on this therapy system.
	It's and, you know, it's unfortunately, it's very expensive, but been very good.
	So it's not all day and it's not every day.
	And that was part of the, part of something that my wife and I had talked about.
	We didn't want to do.
	We didn't want to hand our son over to, you know, eight hours a day in school like in everybody else, but we also needed help.
	And I'll be honest, it can be draining to just be doing therapy all day.
	So, you know, and you have to work too.
	So he goes for about nine to one and for two weeks at a time and then a week off.
	And then we spend the rest of that time at home trying to learn and just be together as a family.
	And how is his sleep?
	Terrible.
	Every once in a while, he'll sleep through the night, but I would say four, four nights, five nights out of the week, he wakes up at about two and he's restless and he's upset.
	And then he'll wake up at about four.
	And so my wife and I will try and take shifts and go and sit with him for about a half an hour and try to get him to calm down.
	And sometimes he's weeping and you don't know why.
	At other times, he's just laughing maniacally and doing cartwheels.
	And you're like, okay.
	All right.
	So, but yeah, that's a bit of a struggle.
	And I mean, it seems unlikely that he would get married, have kids, have a job.
	Yeah, that is, you know, something that is we, you know, we try to talk about it.
	My wife does not like to, you know, I think it hurts her.
	Sorry.
	Again, if you need to pull over, I would suggest if you're feeling strongly to not drive.
	No, I appreciate it.
	I'm all right.
	Thank you, Doug.
	Yeah, it's, I don't know.
	There's hope, but I don't know.
	It's possible.
	It never does.
	Yeah, I mean, sorry.
	No, go ahead.
	Well, you know, it's funny listening to the last guy talking about living in the now.
	And there is, you know, obviously like, yeah, you got to be where your feet are sometimes and just enjoy things that are happening.
	But there is a part of me that goes, man, this kid might be living with me until I die.
	I can't, I can't wreck my body.
	You know, I can't make poor decisions.
	I can't, there's certain jobs I can't take.
	You know, there's certain things I can't do because he's going to need me.
	You know?
	So I don't know.
	He may, he may, he may live with me the rest of his life.
	I don't know.
	I'm not sure about that, bro.
	I mean, what about when he hits puberty and he's bigger than you and your wife?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, we've certainly, we've run into other families when they're, when they're older and, you know, it's a little difficult.
	Sometimes they just, you know, run away.
	Well, no, I mean, because you can restrain him if need be at the moment, but you can't do that when he's 14 or 15 or 13, depending on how quickly he grows.
	That's true.
	Yeah.
	And he's pretty tall for his age as well.
	I mean, as he's gotten older, he's been, you know, we've worked a lot on trying to contain and trying not to be as wild in some of these ways.
	And he's gotten better at that.
	But yeah, I don't know.
	I don't know what the future holds as far as that goes.
	And what proportion of your parenting is directed at your six-year-old versus your four-year-old?
	You know, believe it or not, I think we've done, tried to do a pretty good job of keeping it even.
	And that's always been on the forefront of our minds is, you know, we don't want to make our youngest son feel like he doesn't get enough attention because he doesn't have his pressing concerns.
	Like his concerns are just as valid and as valuable as his needs are as my eldest son.
	So that's part of it, I think, the issue.
	We spend a lot of time doing things together like, hey, today is going to be your day, you know, and we'll go do things that he enjoys and then back and forth.
	So I think it's one thing we've done reasonably well.
	And he's happy.
	Good kid.
	And your eldest son, with his physical impulsivity, he doesn't pose any particular danger.
	Is that right?
	At least yet?
	No, not currently at the moment.
	You know, when he was much younger, he had a tendency to get very frustrated because I think he wanted to be understood.
	And, you know, and so he would sort of pimp or bite.
	And so we had to work very hard to get that under control.
	And every once in a while, you know, he'll get very, very frustrated.
	He'll get sort of whipped up and he'll try and pinch me or something like that.
	And then we'd have to sit down and calm down and talk about it and just be like, hey, man, you know, I know it's complicated.
	I know it hurts to not be able to say what you're feeling, but you can't do this.
	And particularly because, you know, you won't be able to go out in the world if you can't control yourself.
	But you don't know if he understands you, right?
	I have to part of me thinks I have to believe that he can.
	Right.
	And I'm not trying to unravel your certainty here, but I'm just trying to sort of map in my mind the sort of family structure situation.
	Yeah, I don't know for certain.
	I believe he does, but I, you know, it's a belief.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	Well, I mean, it's very tough.
	It's very tough.
	And look, I know you love your son, and I'm sure that there are possible things about him, but this isn't what you want for your son.
	Obviously, you want to see your son grow and take his place in the world and go out and conquer whatever he's going to conquer.
	And that doesn't appear massively likely again, based upon what you're saying.
	So, I mean, have you and your wife, I mean, there's a lot of work and stress and strain and focus and concentration.
	I mean, have you gone through sort of the grieving of what you expected versus what you had?
	Yeah.
	You know, I'll be honest, even if you wanted to get as simple as the five stages, whatever, it doesn't, you know, we've been through that cycle, it feels like, you know, several, a dozen times.
	And partly because there's moments where I'll be, you know, I'll be at peace with it.
	And then there's weeks later, I'll be angry all over again about like, what caused it?
	Or I want to point a finger at somebody, you know, or I want a solution or I don't know.
	So it seems like it constantly, I constantly go through that process as opposed to being in stasis about where I am at the moment.
	Yeah, because most things in life, you know, if there's physical issues, you get better or you die, right?
	And not like continual hope and crossing your fingers and not knowing and all of that.
	So that's a very, it's a very unusual situation for us psychologically.
	And, you know, again, my, my heart goes out for you.
	So what's going on with you and your wife?
	You said that there's a certain amount of roommate aspect.
	Yeah.
	You know, it's, I know in my head that our relationship needs to be a lot stronger and that it, and that it ultimately, I believe my relationship with my wife needs to be kind of forefront because if we're not tight and we're not together, then we really can't help each other.
	We can't help the kids.
	But, you know, they demand so much attention, particularly in this instance that I find often that it's, I'm exhausted or we're both are, you know, we'll sit down and try to spend time together.
	And it's like, you know, we're rung out.
	Like we don't have anything left for each other.
	And I, you know, I'll be honest, I'm not great too about I can be prone to being a bit glib and getting annoyed, you know, so it's instead of.
	Well, you put on, I mean, and I say this with all due respect, right?
	But you put on a pretty brave face about this pretty heartbreaking situation.
	I think that's me trying to.
	That's not a criticism.
	That's not a criticism at all.
	I'm just saying that that's something I noticed.
	Oh, well, thank you.
	I think I just need to be that.
	Yeah, I get it.
	I get it.
	And so, yeah.
	I guess I'm trying to figure out like a practical way or if I'm balancing things correctly, you know?
	What do you mean?
	This important relationship, most important relationship of my life, really, the attention it needs in order to make sure that the center holds.
	Yeah, that's very abstract.
	Oh, okay.
	I'm sorry.
	No, no, again, I'm just saying that I'm not sure how that's like in terms of actionable, practical stuff.
	Have you guys talked at all about having more kids?
	Yes, we've talked about it, and we've decided that to not.
	Partly due to the amount of time and effort that goes into our first child.
	And then secondly, also that my, you know, we're a bit upper in age.
	We're about 40.
	And my wife, the last pregnancy was really complicated and she almost died during it.
	So I, I don't know, a series of those two things we thought maybe would not be smart to try and again.
	How long have you and your wife been together?
	We've been together, we've been married Eight years.
	We've been together, 10.
	Why did it take you so long to try to have kids or relatively long?
	It took us, well, I think, well, we were, we started dating and we were dated for two years and then we were married for 32, right?
	Yes.
	That's a long ass time to be test driving someone.
	It is.
	And it was my fault.
	I should have led better.
	I knew that I wanted children, but I was enjoying the being married.
	And so we were on, or my wife was on birth control and we got pregnant regardless.
	And then after that, I started doing her soul searching and reading about it.
	And I was like, you know what?
	This is, I don't think you should be on it at all.
	Really?
	On birth control.
	When she was pregnant.
	Yes.
	Well, I think that's a little bit like luck in the bond or after the horse has left, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	No, I mean, I mean, we just to not be on it again.
	Oh, to not be on it again.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	I mean, the, yeah.
	Hey, maybe we don't take it anymore.
	Okay.
	So, so the ship has largely sailed as far as having more kids go, right?
	Yeah.
	I think so, yeah.
	And how, again, these are hard questions to ask and maybe impossible to answer.
	I don't know, but how close or connected or essential is your relationship with your son?
	In other words, when he's at school, is he like foaming at the mouth?
	Where are my parents?
	Or is he more self-sufficient that way?
	No, no, he's not having a lot of issues like that at school.
	I think he, the reports, we talk to the teachers because he only has, you know, he's like a, there's like three kids in his class.
	You know, it's pretty hands-on.
	And, you know, and the reports are generally, you know, we go through our exercises and everything else.
	And here's, here's what he struggled with today, or here's where he did.
	You know, emotionally, he's fine being away.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	He's not like, you know, weeping or, you know.
	So why don't you, well, why don't you put him into school longer?
	And again, I'm asking these questions not because I have any opinion.
	Like, what the hell do I know, right?
	So, but I'm just, I'm just curious.
	You said he's there from like nine to one.
	Why not a full day of school?
	Well, we wanted to start off with just seeing how he would handle it and how it would function.
	And then when we were ready, they thought, well, maybe we'll give him a few more hours and to be around other people and to be around their kids and teachers and such.
	And there was an issue with insurance that they need to be worked out where they didn't want to cover some of the therapies past a certain set of hours per week.
	And they're very expensive.
	And we just unfortunately couldn't afford them out of pocket.
	So we just got cleared.
	And so I think moving forward, we'll be doing probably more like five hours a day.
	Yeah, because I mean, as far as you and your wife goes, you just need time together that's not around managing this challenging issue.
	And do you have a family around or are there other people that you can leave your son or sons with?
	Yeah, I mean, and that's been a real blessing.
	My in-laws live about an hour and a half away and they're retired and they're great people.
	And so they come over.
	My mother-in-law in particular will come over once every other week and help out during the daytime and just be around the kids.
	Okay.
	So that's been wonderful.
	Yeah.
	I mean, other than trying to get more one-on-one time with your wife, the only other thing that I would suggest, and this is just from a sort of raw naked soul honesty thing, is that the brave face stuff, I completely understand it.
	And I also understand that it feels like the right thing to do, but this is kind of a tragedy in many ways, right?
	I mean, if you could snap your fingers and have this not be the case, you would do it in a heartbeat, right?
	Yeah.
	And, you know, especially when you said, like, my wife doesn't want to talk about it, like what the future holds and so on.
	But I think there's a lot of sadness here.
	And that doesn't mean that your life is forever going to be sad or anything like that.
	But the more that we deny our sort of genuine, honest, deep feelings, the harder it is for us to connect with other people.
	And I don't know that you can truly connect with your wife without you both opening up about some of the pain and sorrow that this situation is causing.
	Yeah, you're probably right.
	So, yeah, I would say, yeah, I mean, I mean, we all have the brave face, right?
	We all have the brave face.
	And sometimes imitating courage leads to courage.
	So the brave face is not a bad thing innately, but it does tend to, if it's too much of a mask and it's too hard to let go of and it's not possible to talk about the vulnerabilities and the sorrows and the pain that's underneath the mask, then you can end up in a very sort of functional relationship of, you know, wiping asses and taking care of things and bills and dishes and work.
	And then the sexiness and the romance and the lust and all of that sort of drains out of the marriage.
	And that would be a real tragedy, of course, because given, you know, it's you and your wife, right?
	Because I'm not saying that you ever would, but if you ever did split up, it's not like you'd be, you know, hot to trot in the dating market with this, with this kind of issue floating around, right?
	No, no, no, no.
	I don't even think if I did have a child, I'd be very hot to trot in the dating market.
	Right, right.
	Yeah.
	I see what you're saying, though, and I think you're right.
	And sometimes it feels like the obvious thing is in front of you.
	You don't see it.
	But I think the two of us need to cross that bridge and go into that territory that's uncomfortable and wrestle with it in order to get a little bit closer to each other.
	Are you Christians?
	Yeah.
	So thou shalt not bear false witness.
	Thou shalt not.
	I should be able to pronounce this.
	It's really not that hard.
	Thou shalt not bear false witness is my favorite.
	Not that that means anything because it's not like you're supposed to pick them like ice cream, but it is my favorite of the commandments because I think it solves so many of the other commandments.
	Thou shalt not bear false witness, which means what's going on in your heart in matters of great import should be unpacked and spoken openly to each other.
	And the brave face will alienate you if it's kept on too long and too strong.
	So I think talk about some of the sadness and sorrow.
	And I think that will also then be better for your son because your eldest son, I assume, needs to see, you know, the absolute most genuine human interactions and contacts that he has.
	And if everyone's got the brave face on, it may not help him connect with and regulate his own emotions better, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, that's a good point.
	All right.
	Well, listen, man, you go forward with my very best wishes and my sympathies.
	And I hope you'll stay in touch and let us know how it's going.
	All right.
	Thank you, Stephanie.
	Thanks, man.
	Drive safe.
	All right.
	Richard Wright.
	God, I wish I had that name as a philosopher, man.
	Dick Wright.
	It just sounds like porn philosopher, super woody, excellent name.
	You're on the air, my friends.
	What's in your mind?
	Hey, Steph.
	Can you hear me okay?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	In your book, Against the Gods, you argue that it is harmful to a child's mental health to be indoctrinated into a religion that is based on contradictions and cannot be questioned freely.
	What do you think is more damaging to children?
	The generalized Western Christian indoctrination or being raised without a consistent source of morality as demonstrated by 90% of atheists and their love of the state?
	I mean, it's hard to say because there are so many variables at play, right?
	So for instance, if, and I know that this is not obviously all or the majority of Christian parents, but if the Christian parents are like, you know, demons are real.
	And if you look at a Harry Potter book, you're opening up a portal to hell under your bed, like the real extremist stuff or the stuff where the end times, you know, like the taken series, you know, where the rapture is imminent and we're all going to heaven and there's no point making any plans because Jesus is about to return and the world is about to end and so on.
	I think, I mean, and tell me if you agree with me.
	I think that those kinds of beliefs or those kinds of messages to children would be, I mean, very harmful.
	Can we agree on that or do you not?
	I mean, you're certainly welcome to not agree.
	I'm just curious if you do.
	No, I totally agree.
	I'm an atheist person.
	Okay.
	So if it's like, you know, Jesus loves you and you should do good things because of this.
	And here's us go into a soup kitchen and we, you know, we get along with our neighbors and we help out the poor and we visit the elderly and the sick.
	I mean, that's hard for me to see that as abusive.
	If, of course, the child has skeptical questions and they're not allowed to be asked, I think that's harmful.
	So, of course, if we compare the best kind of Christian upbringing with the worst kind of atheist upbringing, you know, we are emo-nihilists and there's no meaning, no virtue, no value, no, you know, we're just machines and like soulless or whatever, right?
	So if you compare the best Christian upbringing with the worst atheist upbringing, then it's easy to make that decision.
	If you compare the best atheist upbringing with the worst Christian upbringing, it's easy to make that decision.
	So unfortunately, there are just so many variables.
	If I had to choose, and if you sort of put the metaphorical water pistol to my head, if I had to choose, I would choose Christianity over mechanistic, materialistic nihilism.
	Because if you believe in sort of meaning and virtue and the powerful and deep nature of human consciousness as embodied in the concept of the soul, I think that does a lot more good for you than just looking at yourself as a collection of atoms and void and sort of Nietzschean willpower machinery with no meaning and no virtue and no content.
	So if I had to choose between the two, all other things being equal, I think that Christianity edges out the atheism.
	What do you think?
	I totally agree.
	I'm just kind of feeling like I was in that edgy, non-virtuous atheism for so long.
	And I'm kind of worried about what steps I should take to improve.
	Well, tell me a little bit about your history with atheism.
	Were you raised that way?
	And how was that for you as a child growing up?
	Yeah, I was raised Christian, but probably around when I was 12, middle school age, my parents stopped basically completely, maybe once a year or something on Christmas.
	And then I fell into a really dark hole on YouTube with all these atheist, really sick people.
	What do you mean?
	There are just all these YouTubers that were really militant atheists and would fight people.
	The one that comes to mind is The Amazing Atheist, and he's kind of like everything you've been talking about the past couple of weeks.
	Yeah, I think I remember seeing some of his videos way back in the day.
	Is it Matt DeLahunty?
	I know he's not the same guy, but is he in that environment as well?
	Pretty much the only one I watched was The Amazing Atheist.
	And he was very demonic in his messaging.
	And I think it contributed a lot to some bad aspects of my childhood.
	Tell me a little bit more about you.
	You started watching him when you were sort of, did you say seven or eight?
	Did your parents give up?
	Oh, no.
	Like 12, like 12, sorry.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Oh, okay.
	That was the year.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, tell me a little bit more about what you got from The Amazing Atheist and how that affected you.
	Yeah, it was just a very judgmental psychology where, or philosophy, I guess, where he would call all religious people stupid and a lot of judgment, antisocial behaviors, stuff like that.
	And I feel like I went from a very happy kind of outgoing kid to someone who was more, you know, not so outgoing, not so nice.
	Right.
	And what were the sort of main messages you got out of the edgy atheists?
	Just nihilism.
	It's just nihilism and hedonism.
	Do whatever you want.
	Everyone else is stupid.
	They can't control you.
	Don't listen to them.
	It's really bad.
	This isn't the guy who had a banana up his butt, is it?
	It is.
	You got it.
	I think I remember this now.
	What was the story behind that?
	It happened when I was a kid, but.
	Oh, good.
	Well, I'm glad you didn't.
	I tried not to look into that, and I don't really remember it too well.
	But he was just kind of a mean, degenerate person generally.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And do you have any idea why he's a bisexual?
	Okay.
	All right.
	So do you know why your parents dropped religion?
	They just, I think they did it.
	I don't think they really believed in it.
	I think they did it for me to raise.
	And then when I was in teenage years, they got tired of it and dropped it.
	But did they talk to you about it?
	No.
	That's a big problem with my childhood.
	My parents didn't talk to me about much.
	Just watching TV or leaving me to the computer.
	Hmm.
	Okay.
	I'm just looking here.
	Yeah, so in October of 2011, a video of Kirk, this is the amazing atheist, engaging in a sex act with a banana, was leaked on the internet.
	Writes, so that's not great.
	In 2012, he was widely criticized for incendiary comments he made on Reddit before he deleted his account.
	In an argument about trigger warnings, Kirk repeatedly stated that one of the participants, a self-described rape victim, should be raped again.
	Ooh.
	Yeah.
	He apologized for that.
	So, okay.
	He said he meant to be satirical.
	Okay.
	Listen.
	Listen, the last thing I'm going to do is go and repeat everything that's said about some public figure because Lord knows I've had my own run-ins that way too.
	So, okay.
	All right.
	Were you, it sounds like you were fairly isolated, if not neglected, as a child if your parents didn't track what you were doing on the internet, talk to you about it, and help moderate what was going on.
	Yeah, that's correct.
	So how much time, like in any given week, would you say that your parents had enjoyable conversations or doing things together?
	On weekends, we would do things.
	So like during the week, I had a nanny and everything.
	So during the week, it was basically zero.
	And then on weekends, we'd do some trip or go to lunch or something, which was pretty enjoyable.
	But there was never really any advice or like discussion into deep topics or morals or anything.
	They kind of did not like talking about heavy topics at all.
	They were kind of.
	Well, no, no, that's not heavy topics.
	That's like parenting.
	You got to teach your kids about morals and life and the world.
	I mean, let me ask you this.
	And for those of you who are new to sort of what it is that I do, I've asked this question of a number of, a large number of people over the years.
	So it's your turn.
	What moral lessons or important life lessons did your parents teach you as a child that you still find of value today?
	My mom taught me the value of hard work, which I'm very appreciative of.
	She, like when I was in high school, she got me a job at her college as like a groundskeeper and forced me to, even though I was really annoyed and in pain about it, I woke up 6 a.m. every day and worked picking up trash bags and everything.
	And she taught me like not to quit jobs and work hard.
	Well, I mean, listen, that's a fine practical steal.
	I'm really talking about sort of the moral, you know, virtue and how to judge people in a rational context and stay safe from the predators of the world and that kind of stuff.
	Yeah, nothing like that.
	Zero.
	Okay.
	So if your mother valued hard work, how much work did she put into being a good parent?
	I'd probably say 10% of her ability as an educator.
	Did she read books?
	Did she, you know, take any courses?
	Or, you know, because people, people, it's funny.
	They say like parenting, parents, kids don't come with an instruction manual.
	It's like, they absolutely do.
	They absolutely do.
	There are tons of parenting books and all of that.
	And I don't think that there would be many parenting books that would say, don't talk to your children about any important issues, right?
	Yeah.
	That's the thing.
	They had parenting books in the house.
	And I saw them there when I was like a very little kid, probably like four.
	They had all these books on a shelf and they never touched them.
	They didn't look like they were red.
	It looks like they bought it and didn't do anything with it.
	Now, when you were a kid, if you didn't study for a test and you did badly, would your parents be upset?
	No.
	Oh, they didn't even care about that?
	Yeah.
	That's another thing I got pretty upset about as an adult because I was always a bright kid.
	I got pretty good grades, but because I didn't try, it kind of lowered my grades.
	I still did pretty well, but I didn't get a 4.0 or be able to compete effectively in the upper tiers of what I'm trying to do now.
	And did your mother, she worked.
	That's why you had a nanny, right?
	Yeah.
	And what field did she work in?
	So both of my parents were lawyers, but they didn't practice law.
	So like my mom worked at a university and my dad was a lobbyist in the government.
	For the government, I guess.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Yeah, they were very busy.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, you said you didn't spend much time with your parents during the week.
	So what did your day look like with your parents and the nanny?
	Yeah, just on the computer, basically.
	Well, no, doesn't the nanny do some parenting-ish stuff?
	Yeah, she taught me like all the less, a lot of the moral lessons I got were from her.
	I would talk to her about things, but the socialization wasn't very good.
	She had sons that I was very close with, but when they went to college, I was still in around that same middle school age.
	So once the sons left, I was just kind of there.
	Sorry, her sons?
	What would her sons have to do with her being your nanny?
	Sorry if I missed something.
	I was at Her house so much that they were like brothers to me.
	Oh, so the nanny wasn't at your house?
	No, I was at her house.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so after school, you'd go to the nanny's house and you'd stay until when?
	Like 7 p.m., 8 p.m.
	7.
	Okay.
	So you'd go to school 7:30 in the morning or whatever it is, and then you wouldn't see your parents for like 12 hours?
	Yeah.
	And then you'd come home.
	I guess your parents, would you eat at the nanny's house or at your parents' house?
	At the nanny's house.
	Okay, so you'd come home.
	What was your sort of typical evening be when you were home at seven with your parents?
	They just watch, my dad would be in a separate room because he didn't really like my mom.
	And then me and my mom would watch TV until bedtime.
	Oh, God.
	But what about board games, conversations, play?
	No.
	Nothing like that?
	No, nothing like that.
	Okay.
	And you don't, are you in your 20s now?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So let me ask you this.
	What do you think or what do you think has happened in your brain if your parents didn't show?
	And listen, I don't want to put words in your mouth.
	So if this is incorrect, obviously please tell me.
	Is it fair to say that your parents didn't show a huge amount of interest in you as an individual?
	Yeah, that's correct.
	Okay.
	So if your parents didn't show much interest in you, what do you think that translated to in your mind?
	Because we usually have to have an answer for these things as kids, right?
	Yeah.
	For me specifically, I feel like it made me not care about accomplishments.
	Like I said, I was...
	So that's outward directed, though.
	What do you think it meant about you as a kid?
	Do you have any siblings?
	No, only child.
	Oh, gosh.
	Okay.
	So only child with inattentive parents.
	All right.
	So how did that translate for you in terms of how you did you feel valuable or not?
	Or like, what do you think it meant about you and the value you could bring to the world if your parents seemed largely indifferent to you?
	Yeah, it was, there was a very low self-value about what I could bring.
	Because it is kind of hard to feel like we're a value if our parents don't delight in our presence, in our company, if they're not looking forward to seeing us, they're overjoyed to see us.
	They give a big hug.
	How was your day?
	And let's do something.
	And I missed you.
	And like all of the stuff that has kids feel valuable because it's really, really hard to feel more valuable than our parents indicate, if that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	And how is that translated into your dating life?
	I'm married now, thankfully.
	Oh, congratulations.
	In the beginning, it was very bad.
	I dated multiple girls who were severely mentally ill, but I figured I stopped that and I started.
	And I married a very good woman who's in medical school now.
	And how, so she can be a doctor, right?
	So that might, I mean, hopefully you're not going to need a nanny for your kids if she's a doctor, right?
	Because the doctor's going to be pretty busy, right?
	But how do you think you turned it around?
	I mean, it's a good, it's a great story to hear and congratulations.
	And how did you do it?
	Yeah, I just worked very hard in college and especially the final.
	No, no, I mean, with you, not your professional, but you went from dating crazy girls to your wife, who's not crazy, you say.
	And obviously I'm going to believe that.
	How did you turn that around?
	I honestly think that was just a bad experience with the last crazy girl.
	I decided to look for the exact opposite of what she was.
	I wanted a hyper-competent, like moral person.
	How did you, from the amazing atheist to rejecting religion, how did you determine what a moral woman was or what morality was?
	I'm not saying you didn't.
	I'm just curious how you did.
	Yeah, it was honestly just the opposite of the last girl.
	I was more filtering for education than morality, to be honest, but I just got left.
	Okay.
	And do you feel, and obviously I can't see you face to face, but just I've had a lot of practice sort of reading people's voice over the last 20 years because it sounds to me like you're still carrying a burden of sadness or loss or neglect or rejection or something like that.
	Obviously, I could be wrong, but the way that you speak is a little heavy and a little down, a little weighted, and you're not very animated, if that makes sense.
	In other contexts, I'm much better.
	It's just I know this show and I know what you would probably pry into.
	So I got very nervous.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Oh, that's fine then.
	Well, yeah, so all other things being equal, it is better to teach people virtue, even if it's based on non-empirical foundations, than it is to teach them nihilism or to ignore them.
	In my view, right, you know, my four categories of child abuse, worst to least worst is sexual abuse, neglect, emotional abuse, physical abuse.
	And so neglect is pretty bad.
	And listen, I'm completely thrilled that you've turned it around and are happily married.
	I think that's absolutely wonderful.
	And I certainly do appreciate your questions and participation in the show tonight.
	Yeah.
	Thank you so much.
	All right.
	We now turn to a salt lick the size of Utah.
	Salty old man.
	What is on your mind, my friend?
	Going once, going twice.
	Speak now or forever hold your peace.
	Yes, no, yes, no.
	I think we lost him.
	Tsukasa.
	Tsukasa, Emikasa.
	Emikasa, Esukasa.
	I think we talked before, if I remember rightly, I think I may have growled your name in pseudo-Japanese.
	What's on your mind?
	Oh, wow.
	I just, I'm honored to actually talk to you.
	This is a, I'm kind of a little nervous.
	So can you hear me first of all?
	Yeah, go for it.
	Oh, wow.
	Wow.
	What a pleasure.
	You know what?
	You taught me so much.
	You know, it's glad to see that you're on X here now.
	But man, I've learned so much from you in your YouTube videos.
	It's a shame what they did to you.
	I think if I remember right, It was what hate speech they tried to get you for?
	I think that was it, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You and Alex Jones, and I was like, wow, this motherfucker right here is just spitting facts.
	And, anyways, you know what?
	I didn't think I was actually going to get through to you, but sorry, I'm going to try to talk a little low because it's actually kind of a sensitive issue.
	I've always kind of wanted to ask you, like, what my mindset should be on this.
	And also, sorry, if you, I mean, I know I swear from time to time, but if you could, if you could dial back the super foul language, I would hugely appreciate it.
	Thanks.
	Yeah, no, no, no, I got you.
	I got you.
	I'm just, I'm just that guy, but, but I'll try to talk a little bit more, how would you say, more, more classy.
	No, also, my son can't hear me, but I've got a son.
	I talked, you know, I'm kind of low, but I've got a son who's got muscular dystrophy, which is very hard to deal with.
	And, you know, I'm like right next door.
	I don't, they hear me.
	So.
	Sorry, who, I'm sorry to interrupt.
	Who has muscular dystrophy?
	My son.
	Your son.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	Go ahead.
	Sorry.
	Like I need to whisper, but go on.
	And, you know, I don't know.
	His mindset is very, it's very, what would you say it?
	It's down.
	You know what I mean?
	And I just don't know how to kind of change his perspective on life.
	You know what I mean?
	How old is he?
	He's 23.
	Yeah.
	And how long has he suffered from this for?
	Oh, since the very beginning, you know, since, you know, it was just a slow degenerate where he loses all functions of the muscles and basically just moves hands.
	Now that's about it.
	So, you know, that's, you know, it's kind of hard to, you know what I mean?
	Just use your imagination.
	You're a smart guy.
	Yeah, yeah.
	You know, we tell somebody like that, you know.
	How fast is he degenerating?
	Oh, yeah.
	Well, it starts from the very beginning.
	You know, when you first have a baby, you don't really notice it until maybe a couple of years and somebody, you know, pointed it out like, hey, she's not done this and that.
	And like, I didn't even know anything about it.
	And then sure enough, you know, we went to go see him.
	They say, yeah, he's got it.
	And, you know, it just is slow, but, you know, you just lose all muscle.
	You know, you lose every strength, basically.
	So, you know, I think you wear scans and stuff.
	That's about it, you know.
	Oh, so it's only affected his hands so far?
	No, no, no.
	Everything.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I'm sorry.
	I can't speak.
	Nice.
	You know this one.
	No, but he's like right there.
	So it's like, I want to, you know what I'm saying?
	You know what I'm saying?
	So.
	Right.
	Do you mean costing him, Minnie?
	No, I think that's okay.
	Cause let me just sort of get the lay of the land because it's a lot to sort of process or try and deal with.
	And does he have a social life?
	Does he have people that he can hang with?
	He starts helping brands online, but that's about it.
	You know what I mean?
	So, you know, yeah.
	I try to encourage going to camps and stuff, but he just never wanted to do it because I knew that, you know, that she would meet people just like him.
	And you would, you know, create, you know, network of friends by going to camps, but unfortunately he never did it.
	So wouldn't there be camps, though, for people who have similar issues or the same issue or groups?
	No, no, definitely, definitely.
	But he just refuses to go to him because, you know, he doesn't, you know, maybe because he's nervous or whatever, but he just, he doesn't see what I potentially see or I know would happen.
	You know, it's the network making him friends.
	But, you know, yeah, he just doesn't want to do it.
	Okay.
	And does he work?
	No, there's, there's no, there's nothing.
	He can't do that.
	There's no work really, you know, he's generally.
	Oh, sorry.
	So is he in a wheelchair?
	Yeah, he's been in charge since like he was eight.
	Okay.
	I mean, the only his mind is still functioning fine, right?
	Because I'm obviously no expert on muscular dystrophy, but it is mostly just muscular and skeletal and neurological, isn't it?
	It's not brain?
	No, no, as far as I know, it's not.
	No, no, he's not he's fine, but just, you know, all the, how would you say all the shortcomings that would come with something with not having, you know, so-called normal average, you know, life, you know, you know, you can see, you know, like just the little interactions that you and I would, you know, have, you know, like just exchanging, you know, money out of cashier.
	Like he doesn't see any of that interaction.
	So, you know, I mean, those, those kind of little pitfalls in life that he ain't able to experience.
	So you can see that when you socially try to interact with him, you know what I mean, which is fully understandable.
	But, you know, I just, you know, I just wish there was something that, you know, some magic words you just say to kind of give him a perspective or, or give me, because I try.
	And I try so many angles, but I just don't know if I'm saying the right things.
	I could be an asshole or an ahole sometimes too.
	And so I was like, this is a blessing to talk to you because I know you're a lot smarter than I am.
	I appreciate that.
	Now, has he had a prognosis that affects his lifespan?
	In other words, is it hitting his heart or other essentials?
	Yeah, it does.
	Every muscle does the bike.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	The prognosis, you know, I mean, it's this, this, this, yeah, you know, eventually it's going to be, you know, he's imagination.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Right.
	And do you, do you have any idea how long he might have?
	Honestly, I have no idea.
	No.
	So nobody's given him any kind of life expectancy, right?
	Honestly, I've never even asked the doctor.
	You can say that to us in our face because then, you know, you could kind of look at it.
	It's like, oh man, the tunnel's ending.
	So I'd rather not even see the light at the end of the tunnel.
	Don't even tell me about the light.
	You know what I'm saying?
	Where's his mother?
	Yeah, yeah.
	What is she?
	What do you mean?
	What is she here?
	No, where is she?
	Sorry.
	Oh, she's about a couple hours up north.
	Oh, so you guys aren't together?
	No, no, I had to leave that.
	She was just too much.
	And she's a good person, but, you know, just wasn't doing what a white should have been doing, so I couldn't do it no more.
	And what's his relationship like with her?
	Oh, it's good.
	That's good.
	That's good.
	That's really good.
	Yeah.
	I mean, listen, obviously, it's not a specifically philosophical issue.
	This is just sort of father-to-father.
	What I would say is that you have to work with the limitations that you're provided.
	And every single limitation can be an advancement somewhere else.
	Right.
	So he's limited in his physicality, to put it mildly, for which, of course, you both have, and he in particular have my deep, deep sympathy.
	So, what we can do is we can say, I'm limited, and we can focus on our limitations.
	Or what we can do is we can say, I'm limited.
	So, I'm going to focus on how I can use that to extend some other ability.
	Yeah.
	Well, you need to.
	Hang on.
	So, hang on.
	You're calling me to ask for advice, right?
	So, if you, if I start giving advice, you start talking, I'm happy if you have something else you want to say, but it's asking me to give the advice.
	Well, what I was going to say is, you know, not really that, but, you know, to get your approval is, you know, sometimes I tell him that the strongest muscle he has is his volume, which is no muscle, but, you know, so kind of, you know, that's what I was going to interject.
	Go ahead.
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, we have, we have, we all have terrible things happen to us now.
	Of course, the cards he's been dealt with are particularly bad.
	So I hesitate, of course, to give any examples from my own life because I've not been in a wheelchair since I was eight.
	So I say this with all due humility and so on.
	But, you know, when I had cancer, then what I did was I said, okay, well, I'm really going to work to be super healthy now.
	So I'm going to lose more weight.
	I'm going to eat as healthily as I can.
	I'm going to exercise a lot.
	And so my phone died.
	I'm sorry.
	Oh, his phone died.
	Oh, dear.
	Okay, so I'll sort of finish this up here.
	So when I had cancer, I had to say, well, I'm obviously going to take the treatments and work through them.
	And I'm going to work as hard as I can to be as healthy as I can in my life going forward.
	And so that's the best thing that I could do.
	When my life's work was largely erased from the internet and my income, of course, was cut savagely and my reach was cut savagely, I decided to say to myself, okay, well, I've done a lot of politics.
	I originally started as an artist, as a novelist and a poet and a playwright.
	So I'm going to go back.
	I read my books as audio books.
	I wrote two new novels.
	I'm working on a third.
	And I wrote the book Peaceful Parenting and a shortened version of it as well.
	And so I decided to try and create beauty.
	If my life work in sort of philosophy and politics was erased, I could sort of return to a more artistic life and try and enjoy life in that way.
	And again, it's a completely ridiculous example.
	So it's just for the sake of principle.
	Somebody asked me when I started losing my hair and it was like my 20s.
	I'm like, well, how did you deal with that insecurity and all of that?
	And I'm like, well, I just worked out more because, I mean, you can be, you can be bald and have muscles.
	It's actually kind of a cool look, but you can't be bald and fat, right?
	You can be, you can have a lot of hair and be fat or at least be overweight.
	It's not so bad, but you can't be fat and bald.
	So again, this is a completely ridiculous example relative to the suffering that this gentleman's son is facing.
	But when you are restricted in one particular area, I think it's really important to try and figure out where you can focus your strengths.
	And if your physicality is restricted, you have to work on what you can do with your mind.
	You really have no other choice unless you're willing to just kind of hang around and wait for the end.
	All right.
	So sorry that his phone died.
	Zelin Ziln?
	Zelin VI.
	I think we talked before if you want to unmute.
	Otherwise, we'll go to someone else.
	All right.
	Bye, Samba.
	What's on your mind?
	What do you want?
	Hello.
	How are you?
	I'm well, thanks.
	How are you doing?
	Not good.
	I'm sorry.
	I can barely hear you.
	You're going to have to get closer to your microphone.
	I see I'm not good.
	You're not good.
	Okay, what's on your mind?
	I'm from the Gambia.
	My name is Bai Samba.
	Sure.
	So where are you from?
	I'm sorry, do you know why you're calling?
	Do you have a question for me?
	No.
	I'm a beggar to come here to look who will be helping.
	Okay, well, that's interesting.
	I'm not really quite sure of the politeness of just calling it randomly and not having anything to talk about.
	But that's all right.
	That's all right.
	Takes all kinds, I suppose, to make this little orb go round.
	So freedomain.com slash delay to help out the show really would appreciate it.
	And, you know, again, I'm sure that you all will join me in the massive sympathies for, in particular, the fathers and the mothers.
	Well, the fathers who called in and the mothers who are around dealing with these significant issues with their children.
	It certainly is a very tragic and sad and difficult situation.
	And I really can't tell you how much I respect the parents who are dealing with these kinds of situations.
	I'm not sure I'd do a particularly good job.
	In fact, I'm quite sure I would not do a particularly good job.
	So I really do massively respect and admire the parents who take on these kinds of challenges and wrestle with them and deal with them successfully.
	It is intensely and immensely impressive for me in particular because it's not my particular skill sets at all.
	And so I just further want to extend my massive respect and affection and best and good wishes to families struggling with these kinds of issues.
	And if there's anything I can do in terms of you can call in and if talking about it helps, I'm certainly happy and willing to be a sympathetic ear.
	So have yourselves a wonderful evening.
	We will speak Wednesday night.
	Hopefully the fellow, I have a logician who is very negative towards me and calls me, I think, a pseudo-intellectual or something like that.
	So he's got significant criticisms of UPB and I would love to have, I've offered him a debate.
	He said that he's going to take me up on the debate.
	So I've offered him Wednesday night at 7 p.m.
	We'll live stream that so that he can set me straight and bring his logical prowess to my pseudo-philosophy, as he puts it.
	And I look forward to being corrected by this fine professorial gentleman.
	And I'm sure that he can iron out any kinks in my moral theory and set me straight.
	If I've missed the obvious, the important thing is to be correct, not just to feel right.
	So hopefully 7 p.m. Eastern Standard on Wednesday, we'll do a live stream with that.
	And he can call in and expose my fute, faulty logic for the foolishness that it is.
	Or maybe not.
	We'll see.
	We'll find out as we go forward.
	So have yourselves a wonderful evening.
	Freedomand.com slash dynamite to help out the show.
	Hugely would appreciate it.
	And don't forget to go to freedom.com slash books for all the free books in the known universe.
	Thanks, everyone.

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