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June 27, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:06:53

I Was Self-Destructive as a CHILD! CALL IN SHOW

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	I'd been wrestling with suicidal thoughts, depression, and what I'd call counterproductive compulsive behavior since I was at least 10.
	And I think earlier than that, I tried a seemingly rational scientific approach, leaning on genetics, evolutionary psychology, and logic, trying to just think it through for years, but it did not work.
	Recently, I prayed and felt something I could call God, but there's also an equally plausible physiological explanation, I'm sure.
	Basically, I broke down in tears, and for days, the suicidal noise and the negative self-talk just stopped.
	It was pretty crazy for me.
	For the first time in a while, that happened.
	But I just tend to be a skeptical guy.
	I'm wired to think a certain way, and I have a tendency to just saw off the branch I'm standing on just for the hell of it.
	And I can't fully buy into a religious worldview.
	So I feel like I'm stuck.
	Am I abandoning reason if I live by a religious ethos that I don't fully believe in?
	Even if it works, isn't the result more important than the methodology you're using?
	Being 100% airtight?
	And I wanted your take on does belief matter or is the outcome enough?
	So is that a philosophical question that you want to discuss?
	Or did you want to talk more about the suicidality and the possible cause of that?
	I mean, I'm more interested in the practical application of this just for the implications on my life.
	That's, you know, it's sort of been a long road trying to figure this out.
	And for the first time, you know, I had this sort of, I'd be more interested in figuring out the cause of the suicidality than the epistemological question, but I think they could sort of circle back into one another.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I would be more interested in that as well.
	Okay.
	No, I'm glad you said that.
	I appreciate it.
	Well, how old are you?
	33.
	33.
	Okay.
	So you've listened to a bunch of call-ins before, right?
	I have, yes.
	Right.
	So you know where we're starting, right?
	Absolutely.
	No, it's kind of a crazy experience.
	So, no, I'm ready for what you got.
	I don't want you to.
	All right.
	So I want you to call me out on something if you think about it.
	Hit me on the childhood stuff, baby.
	Hit me.
	Sure.
	I mean, you know, at the time, I'm not like, I wasn't analyzing myself when I was eight years old, but I think there's a, if there's a particular event, certain events from childhood that do stick out, I think that's worthwhile.
	And I'd really been what I would call, I guess, depressed or suicidal since I was at least for sure in third grade.
	I just remember sitting at my desk and it would like this.
	At the time, I was like, this is a feeling of dread.
	But I try, again, I tried to like reason it out.
	I literally remember sitting at my desk listing out like, are you worried about some project that you procrastinated on that's coming up?
	Like, why am I feeling this way?
	And I was like, no, everything's fine at home.
	My friends are fine.
	I'm not being bullied.
	Everything was fine.
	But why do I feel this way?
	And I just sort of had, and then I learned about death and I grew up and it became sort of a suicidal thing.
	Nothing that was ever actionable.
	It was almost just like, I just was like, God, sometimes it's a pain in the ass to be, yeah, I don't know, just not super happy, not like, you know, miserable, but I don't know, quote unquote, happy.
	I don't know.
	And wouldn't it just be nice if you could just unplug it all and, you know, not have to deal with it anymore?
	So it was more just like a defense mechanism that I even went down that road, I feel like.
	Right.
	So your thesis is, and I'm obviously not disagreeing with you, your thesis is that everything was fine at home and everything was fine at school, but you had a mystery curse called Death Wish.
	I think it, I mean, it sort of ended there.
	Yeah, that's, it turned into this sort of weird, I think it was like almost like if you know in Seinfeld when there's like that mantra, serenity now, like some little, you know, thing you can say to yourself to make everything feel better.
	And just in the moment, if I was, I don't know, feeling bad or stressed about something, I could just imagine like, man, what if you just like blew your head off and it was all the noise stopped?
	Wouldn't that be great?
	Like for a second, you could see how that would give you some dopamine or something.
	Like, but then that just cycled over decades and like became this like, you know, thing that, again, it's not an actionable thing that I would like to do.
	Okay, hang on.
	Slow your roll here a little.
	Okay.
	Do you remember what my question was?
	Everything was fine at home.
	My thesis is everything was fine at home, but I had this death wish.
	Well, your thesis is that, if I understand this correctly, everything was fine at home.
	Everything was fine at school.
	You weren't being bullied or anything like that.
	But you had a desire for death.
	Do you think, now that you've listened to a bunch of my shows and things like that, do you think that's true still?
	I would push back on this, like maybe the phraseology of a death wish.
	I just had some sort of existential, I don't know, just like I never felt fully happy with stuff.
	And though everything could seem fine for a period of time, yeah.
	So, I mean, just new language here, just because I need to understand.
	So if you said I never felt fully happy, what does fully happy mean?
	That's a good question.
	Honestly, yeah.
	I mean, I don't know every atom of your body is filled with orchestric joy.
	I don't know what fully happy means.
	It's like saying fully healthy.
	It's like, well, nothing hurts, right?
	So what do you mean by fully happy?
	Man, it shouldn't be such a tough question.
	It's hard to articulate it.
	No, I'm going to.
	You didn't come here for the easy questions, right?
	Yes, no.
	For some reason, that's tough for me to even get into because I'm just more of a feeling.
	It's not a philosophical argument.
	It's just the way I felt.
	I was never.
	I'm just asking you what you mean by the words that you use.
	This is not a trick question, it's not a puzzle, it's not an escape room, it's not a riddle.
	You said, Sure, I never felt fully happy, and I want to know what that means.
	I'm not trying to trick you.
	No, I guess the best way to describe it would be: I was, I don't know, I wasn't living the life that I thought I should.
	My expectations for the way things should be didn't match up with the way things were going.
	Sorry, are we talking grade three?
	I mean, no, because I'm asking the origin story here, right?
	So at grade three, you're tortured because you're not living the life that you want to live.
	No, okay, yeah.
	No, no, I'm not, I'm not trying to be snarky.
	I'm, I'm genuinely trying to understand.
	That's the first concrete time that I remember, like, it was sort of like, holy shit, I've, you know, at some point later in my life, I realized like, Jesus Christ, you've been having, dealing with this sort of a thing before you even really understood what was going on.
	No, basically, I just remember having this feeling like something impendingly bad was going to happen, even though everything was fine.
	And I couldn't say, you know, there was nothing, no terminally ill family member.
	There was no bad event that was going to happen, but I felt like it was just hanging over my head.
	Okay.
	So let's look at family circumstances.
	So do you have siblings?
	Yeah, I have an older brother.
	Okay.
	How old?
	How much older?
	Yeah, three years older.
	About three years older.
	And that's it, right?
	Yes.
	And how did you get along with your brother when you were young?
	Amazingly.
	Yeah, he was like, yeah, I had really no problems, no issues.
	It was great.
	We got along.
	I even tell him now he let me hang around with him and his friends when he like, you know, it's not necessarily cool.
	I don't think I would have wanted my little brother tagging along.
	And he did, you know, he treated me so well.
	So great relationship.
	Okay.
	So obviously you shared with him your suicidal thoughts.
	Basically, and this has sort of been a theme, I'll like dip my toe in and like test, send out a little feeler.
	And I just have a, I don't know.
	And it's probably just me.
	Like, I don't like the reaction I get.
	I'm like, have you ever, I did, basically the extent that I brought it up to him was like, yeah, like we were talking about him with his marriage and our parents and there was some like drama.
	Oh, no.
	I'm not talking about now.
	No.
	If you got along amazingly as a child, I assume you shared your thoughts and feelings because that's what getting along amazingly is.
	No, no.
	Okay, so just very simple.
	Sorry, just as a whole in the conversation, you got to let me finish.
	Like you just, because it's not going to be a conversation.
	If I'm trying to say something and you start talking in the middle of it, then it's going to be very tough to have a conversation.
	So I know, I know, listen, I appreciate that you're excited and I'm very thrilled for that.
	So this isn't a nag or anything big negative.
	It's just a recording.
	You're good.
	You're good.
	See, you just started doing it right in the middle of me telling you not to do it.
	Did you hear that?
	Okay.
	So as a kid, you had these blow my own head off feelings, right?
	In a manner of speaking.
	Okay.
	I thought you had referred to that.
	If I blew my own head off, I would get some dopamine or something like that.
	That specific thing didn't happen until I was in high school.
	Okay, so you got to stay with the timeframe that I'm talking about.
	Because if you're jumping all over the timeframe, I'm trying to get the origin story here, right?
	I'm trying to understand the ideology or the beginning of this.
	So then if you throw in stuff from high school and when you talk to your brother when he's married, then we got to stay early.
	We'll get to the later.
	We got to stay early, right?
	Okay, so as a kid, when you had these self-destructive feelings, is that fair to say?
	Okay.
	Did you share them with your brother?
	No, I didn't share them with anybody.
	Okay.
	So that's not an amazing relationship.
	That's fair.
	Now, I guess you didn't share them with anybody.
	So what about your parents?
	Tell me a little bit about your mother and father when you were younger.
	Sure.
	I mean, yeah, they didn't.
	I mean, my dad never hit us.
	My mom would slap us across the face.
	She was kind of, and still is, just she has a tendency to, you know, I don't.
	Yeah, she just will blow up and treat people, including my dad, in a way that is not acceptable.
	But, I mean, she was a loving, it was a fine relationship.
	But again, very surface level.
	Everything was.
	Okay, bro.
	This is so scattered.
	I don't even know what to say.
	First, you told me that everything was great at home, right?
	Now your mother blows up, treats your father badly, and slaps you across the face.
	Do you understand how that's a little confusing from the outside?
	No, it doesn't add up.
	Sure, sure.
	Well, it adds up to bullshit.
	That's what it adds up to.
	So I just need you to be honest.
	You know, in terms of our time together, I'm sorry, are you touching the microphone or sighing or moving around?
	I'm getting this background sound.
	Sorry, no, I was just pacing around.
	No, I need you to just physically relax, because if you're all wound up, then it's going to be really tough too.
	I really do.
	I'm not trying to nag or make you feel bad.
	I'm just trying to tell you how we can get the best.
	So when you tell me that things were great at home or fine at home, are you aware that you're about to tell me something completely opposite?
	Because you know I'm going to ask, right?
	So when you tell me, oh, no, things were fine at home, I wasn't getting bullied at work, right?
	Or I had an amazing relationship with my brother, but I hid all of my self-destructive thoughts from him.
	So when you tell me things like things were, and I'm not trying to nag you again, right?
	But when you tell me like, oh, things were great at home.
	And then you say, yeah, well, okay, my mother hit us across the face and I kept secrets from my brother that were eating me alive.
	And my mother blew up and had a bad temper and so on.
	When you tell me things are fine at home, are you aware that you're about to tell me that they weren't?
	Not until you just said it like that.
	Okay, so when you tell me that things are fine at home, that's something you genuinely believe to a degree, I guess.
	Yeah.
	Okay, don't fog out on me, bro.
	No, no.
	You gotta stay with me.
	Don't give me all this fog, right?
	No.
	So when you told me there's because basically you said there's no reason for me to be unhappy because things were fine at home and things were fine at school, right?
	Is that something that you genuinely believed in that moment?
	Basically, what I did was I would hide anything from including my parents, especially my parents and my brother.
	I would hide.
	Yeah, I would essentially hide telling them the truth about things.
	I mean, like, just actively.
	Okay, so no.
	So you're doing that to me, right?
	That's what I said.
	In this conversation.
	And again, it's not a big criticism.
	I'm just pointing to you.
	No, and that's what I figured I would try to, you know, fog over it.
	But no, I guess, no, no, no, not, not, not a perfect childhood.
	So I'm actually honest about it.
	Okay, so how often would your mother hit you?
	If I had to put it like in three, four times a year when like there was a thing that we did wrong.
	And it was, yeah, and that's, I just, I know, I guess I forgive her, but.
	No, no, hang on.
	I don't want to get her to forgift this questions.
	And I know it's tough because you've got a lot to talk about, but don't worry, we've got two hours, right?
	So we've got time to talk.
	So I just, just give me the facts to begin with.
	Okay, so three or four times a year, your mother would hit you across the face, right?
	Was that the only physical violence that you received at home, or was there anything else?
	No, I would say that was it.
	Okay.
	Physically.
	You said that your mother had a bit of a temper or maybe more than a bit of a temper.
	So with regards to your mother, how often would she lose her temper?
	Certainly more than she would actually strike us and slap us.
	But I do, again, I'm sorry for trying to bullshit you, but I remember there I was kind of just afraid of her.
	And she would just, like, I could, when you're a child and you hear your mother scream from the kitchen all the way across the house, I was, she had a temper and she did it semi-often.
	Okay, I don't know what semi-often means.
	You've got to give me some specifics once a week, once a month.
	Several times a week.
	Oh, gosh.
	So she would just scream.
	Get down here.
	Right.
	If you could say off names, sorry, just if you could stay off names, I'd appreciate that.
	That's fine.
	Sure.
	Okay.
	So several times a week, she would scream or lose her temper about something.
	Okay.
	So was she somebody who called names?
	You're stupid, you're selfish, you're mean, you're lazy.
	You're like, did she use pejorative language in that way?
	No, I would say definitively, no.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So when, if ever, did the temper taper off?
	When did she stop yelling and screaming a couple of times a week?
	Sure.
	I mean, anytime that you would just placate her and buy into whatever things her way.
	Yes.
	As long as you would not initiate her and set her off, she was fine.
	Like, you know, yeah.
	Sorry, as long as you would not set her off, she was fine.
	So are you saying that you as a child are responsible for managing your mother's temper?
	That's how it felt, I guess.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	But is that true?
	No.
	Okay.
	So she's not.
	She's completely responsible for her temper, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So when does she still scream at the moment?
	Like, or as an adult, if you see her or when you see her?
	The screaming?
	No, not with me.
	I mean, we just, no, I would say no.
	But I know she does it to my brother.
	Your brother, your older brother.
	Like, she has that in her still.
	She's not left her.
	She hasn't evolved at all, but she does it to me.
	Sorry.
	She does it to your brother, but she doesn't do it to you.
	Yes, for the past.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And when was the last time your mother did yell or scream at you?
	Honestly, I can't remember.
	I mean, I think part of it is she just knows how, you know, I don't know.
	No, it could be 10 years.
	Oh, okay.
	So since you were in your teens, right?
	Since I was in AS teens, certainly adulthood, I just, she didn't do that.
	And why do you permit her to scream at your brother?
	If you care about him, right?
	This was not in my presence.
	100%.
	No, and so this was not in my presence.
	This was him relaying me a story of a fight between them when she would just blow up and say crazy things.
	So no, this was me hearing it secondhand.
	If I'm in the room, it's not a good idea.
	Why would I care whether you were there or not?
	So I didn't, sure, you're right.
	I didn't call her and confront her and say, don't talk like that.
	Okay, again, stay off names, I would appreciate that.
	Okay, so if you were to call your mother and say, you need to take anger management, if you scream at my brother or whatever, I don't want to spend time with you.
	I mean, whatever it would be, right?
	But there would be something that you would do to stand up to that, right?
	There should have been, I guess, yeah.
	Okay.
	No, it's just a possibility, right?
	Yep.
	And I'm sorry that you have to deal with this.
	So your mother, do you feel that, and again, I'm sorry, there's some sort of sighing or inhaling or breath or something.
	It's quite distracting.
	So if you could try and sit still, I'd appreciate that.
	So with your mother, do you feel that her temper is organic or uncontrollable, or is it manipulative and bullying?
	I would say it's both.
	It can definitely, it's absolutely manipulative.
	But I don't know that she's not very, Okay.
	So the way that you would know if the anger is organic is there are times when she can't control it, even when it serves her very badly.
	In other words, she would yell at you in front of a teacher or a policeman or some sort of authority figure or at a mall where she might be embarrassed at being seen screaming at her children.
	So, were there times when she just completely lost it, even when she suffered significant costs because of that?
	Absolutely not.
	No, appearing as though everything was perfect was okay.
	So, she has no organic element to her anger.
	It is always bullying and manipulative because she can control it whenever she wants, right?
	Yep.
	So that's just a big change now, isn't it?
	And what do you feel about that?
	I mean, essentially, it's what I mean, I knew, essentially, I think I knew it was the case.
	But it's not what you just said.
	You just said it was half and half.
	Yeah.
	Because I need you to listen to me with your gut and your heart, as well as just the obviously rapid intellect that you have.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So her anger was bullying and manipulative.
	It was not organic and uncontrollable.
	It was turned on to get what she wants and to intimidate children rather than because she's like has Tourette's or this possession of rage that she can't control.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So what did your father do when his wife was screaming at his children and bullying and intimidating them?
	Absolutely nothing.
	So he's kind of weak and pathetic?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	Did you ever, in the time that you were, I guess, zero to 18, or whenever you left home, did you ever see your father stand up to your mother and attempt to restrain her outbursts?
	I saw her maybe stand up to him, or him stand up to her once, but it wasn't an attempt, like, don't talk to, no, it was not a moral stance.
	So essentially, no.
	Was it like, hey, that's too far?
	It was basically some bullshit thing.
	It wasn't like he was like, don't talk to our son like that.
	Don't yell.
	Like, it was just, he was mad and he's like, come back here, Nan.
	Like, you know, come back.
	Like, it was no.
	So essentially, no.
	You could say he never stands up to her.
	All right.
	And is he still whipped and cucked and simpy to this day?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, to this day.
	Okay, so they stayed married and all of that, right?
	Yep.
	Yep.
	Do you know much about your mother's history or why she might have developed this aggressive and intimidating and bullying aspect of her nature?
	Sure.
	I mean, she will.
	I mean, she talks about how she was slapped or whatever, and she tries to justify that as like, well, that's just how I was raised.
	And so that's a part of it.
	So she thinks it was like a decent or okay or good thing that she was slapped.
	Is that right?
	She would 100% try to defend it, yes.
	Okay.
	And so she says she was slapped because she was bad.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, she would say, oh, you know, that was the way they were.
	It's the way we did it back then.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	All right.
	And what has your relationship been like with your mother over the years?
	It's been very surface level, just superficial stuff to a degree.
	So, I mean, and so fine, but again, I just, I don't, I don't get that deep with them.
	They're not that interested in that seemingly.
	And I just got past a certain point.
	Yeah, I just don't tell them.
	I guess the only stuff that really matters about me, I'm feeling, I just, I don't even bring it up with them.
	So I guess that's not a great relationship.
	You don't subscribe to my arguments to be honest in relationships.
	And that's not a criticism.
	I'm just this obviously room on this planet for not agreeing with me.
	but you don't believe in the virtue of being honest in relationships.
	I suppose not.
	I mean, because you are dishonest, right?
	I mean, you're lying by omission.
	You have issues with your parents and you don't talk to them about them.
	100%.
	Okay, and again, I know this sounds like a big finger whack.
	It's not.
	I'm just generally trying to map your thinking, if that makes sense.
	No, and I know, and I've listened to enough of your shows to say I'm listening to somebody where it's like, man, he's talking complete bullshit and didn't realize it or wasn't willing to admit it.
	So that's sort of in the position I'm at.
	I don't disagree with anything you're saying.
	It's just crazy that I, yeah, that's the way it is.
	Now, you said that your mother doesn't scream at you and hasn't for 10 years or so.
	And what was it that stopped that behavior regarding or towards you?
	I think it was more just like I was physically bigger than, you know, I don't know.
	She realized she couldn't bully me, I guess, anymore.
	But she is with your brother, so something else must be the factor.
	I think she thinks she can get away with it, and it'll work with him.
	Okay, so why doesn't she think she can get away with it with you?
	I mean, because I'll actually, you know, again, I realize I haven't been completely looking back on it, like, I don't agree with being honest.
	But if somebody's yelling at me, saying something that's bullshit, I'll push back on her.
	She doesn't like anybody to push back on her, and I will, and my brother will not.
	Was there a particular moment where you laid down the law or pushed back and said, don't you ever raise your voice to me again?
	Or was there any moment?
	Or do you think she just got a sense of your resolution and backed away because of that?
	No, there was never, that was never a conversation, but I think it was, it was kind of the way I made things clear, I think.
	Honestly, I just think she's probably a manipulative thing.
	She knows she can get her way, and she just saw that, okay, Will call me out on my people, call me out on my bullshit, and she doesn't want to go down that road, so maybe she doesn't get into it with me as much.
	And have you did she see you, or did she experience you calling her out on her bullshit?
	Yeah, in several instances.
	Okay, and what were those?
	Oh, just give me one say.
	Sure.
	I don't even have a specific exam.
	Essentially, I would point out the fact that she was being irrational and crazy or making a big dramatic deal out of nothing.
	And it would, again, anytime you basically you get her in a corner to where she knows she's wrong, but she's too stubborn and will just blow up even harder and like literally storm out of the house and like walk away.
	Like, so no, essentially, she just goes into this big blow-up and then comes back 10 minutes later or whatever, and just is like, doesn't admit she's wrong, but tries to paper over everything.
	And it's all basically bullshit, but she just blows up and pretends like that never happened.
	I still don't know how that's you calling her out on her bullshit.
	Sure.
	So no, I mean, yeah, I guess I never did.
	No, and again, the language is interesting.
	I'm honestly not trying to get you.
	Well, get you, I guess I understand you, right?
	To grok.
	To grok.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	So somehow she figured out that she couldn't scream at you.
	She continues to scream at your brother and so on.
	And what was your dating life like in your teens?
	Yeah, I was pretty late to get into like dating in high school, but I got a serious girlfriend in the beginning of my senior year that lasted into the end of college.
	That was the first actual relationship I had.
	And how was that?
	I would say it was great.
	I wasn't always the best of her, but I mean, you know, are you thinking it wasn't great?
	No, no, no.
	It was great.
	She put up with a lot of my bullshit, but it was, if anything that wasn't great, it was more on my end, honestly.
	No, she was a great girl, and I would say it was nine out of ten.
	Okay.
	I mean, that's surprising, given the model of your parents' relationship, but obviously I'm too bad.
	Well, and I basically I broke up with her at some point because she started getting, in my mind now, again, it's probably bullshit now that I'm what I'm realizing, but at the time when I broke up with her, essentially, she had been like getting very like, I don't know, talking to me in a way essentially where you don't talk to me that way, but she would do it in front of my friends.
	She would do it like she's, I don't know.
	I started getting cues that reminded me of the way my mom would talk to my dad.
	And I just thought, I can't live like this.
	I'm going to end up getting divorced.
	And I couldn't deal with, you know, the negative aspects, the attitude, the way she would speak to me.
	And I just like, I don't, I, you know, and I broke up with her.
	And but you were together for five years?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	And did you go to the same college?
	We did.
	Okay.
	So are you saying for the first four and a half years or whatever it was, she was respectful and good, and then for some reason, she became disrespectful and sort of was putting you down in public?
	You could say that, yes.
	No, no, I'm not trying to say.
	No, no, no, no.
	Yes, I think that's true.
	Okay.
	So why do you think she changed?
	It's kind of odd to change after four and a half years, right?
	Uh-huh.
	Yeah, and yes.
	I don't know whether I wasn't picking up on it, but there are several instances where I just was like, don't talk to me like that.
	And they just, I don't know, I wasn't okay with it.
	So I think it started later.
	Okay, so four and a half years things were good.
	And then she starts picking on you.
	And or I guess a couple of times, maybe close to five years was good.
	And then she starts picking on you.
	Well, that kind of makes sense, though.
	I mean, you didn't have any plans to get married, did you?
	Yeah, I mean, I talked about that with her.
	That way I would say that was the plan here.
	Oh, the plan was to get married.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Okay.
	And what changed?
	What changed?
	Okay.
	So tell me the kind of relationship you had before.
	But you said you didn't tell anyone about your suicidal thoughts, right?
	That includes your girlfriend?
	Yeah, I definitely never told her either.
	Huh.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you felt close to her, but you were keeping a massive secret from her.
	Yep.
	Did she ever ask you, you seem kind of down, or you seem kind of dour or you seem kind of negative or did she ever notice anything?
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, she would say I was feeling very, you know, I just, you seem distant, and I would just make up some bullshit.
	Oh, so you lied to her too, right?
	Okay.
	That's kind of torturing someone, right?
	I mean, it's really cruel to be down and lie to your partner and gaslighter, yeah.
	So how was it good for her?
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, probably.
	I mean, what?
	Yeah, no, probably not great.
	How often would you have these negative moods or thoughts over the five years that you were going at?
	Yes, I would say semi-frequently.
	Just kind of like that.
	Yes, if you could try not giggling about stuff like this.
	That means fairly serious stuff, and this probably broke her heart, right?
	So yeah, so just how often would you have these negative thoughts?
	Several times a month, three or four.
	So three or four times a month, and for sort of what time period?
	Sure, for the last couple of years?
	No, but sorry, that was my mistake.
	Sorry, what I mean is If it's several times a month, but they're just flashing thoughts that come and go, as opposed to it would have me in the grip for two days a month or something like that.
	So when you would have them several times a month, how long would the average duration of these negative thoughts be?
	Sure.
	Several days, maybe a day or two.
	Okay.
	So, you know, maybe a quarter or a third of the month, you were wrestling with self-destructive, maybe suicidal thoughts, is that right?
	Yes.
	And she had no idea other than she got a vague sense that there was something negative going on, right?
	Yes.
	And what are the kind of lies that you would tell her to cover this up?
	Honestly.
	Yeah, it's like the most bullshit thing you could think of, just some like, I'm not, I'm not, I don't even have a good example.
	I would just like essentially gaslight her and be like, I'm fine.
	I just, yeah, it's not, I'm not defending it, but it's not.
	It's just how?
	Like, what do you mean?
	Yeah.
	Essentially, I would do the thing that I complain about and just say, no, I'm fine.
	So I guess that was not great for her.
	Okay.
	Because she knew something was wrong.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So what was your mood outside of the sort of, you know, four to eight days a month that you'd be wrestling with suicidal thoughts?
	What was your mood as a whole outside of that?
	As far as I can remember, it was okay.
	I mean, I was functional, having a job or going to school, doing whatever.
	There was an underlying.
	Functional is not a mood, though.
	Sure.
	I would say that it could fluctuate.
	I could be.
	I mean, I have it could be great and I could just have a good day.
	Yes, it was more of swings one way or the other, depending on, I guess I don't know what.
	And how many positive, enthusiastic, like in happiness, seven or eight out of 10.
	You know, I mean, aiming for 10 just makes you miserable, but seven or eight out of 10.
	So in any given month, how many days would you be experiencing generally positive and happy moods or experiences?
	I would say it was a sharp contrast.
	I would be like on the top of the world or completely in the gutter mentally.
	And I could maybe put on a mask to hide it or something, but it was a sharp contrast.
	It was a 10 to a 1 within 10 minutes.
	I know.
	I gave you the 1 to 10 scale, but it probably is closer to a minus 10.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So is that like a kind of mania to a kind of real depression or something like that?
	Something like that is possible.
	So you'd say you'd be plus 10, so manically enthusiastic about things, like as great a joy as you could have, and then you'd be semi-suicidal.
	Is that right?
	Sounds kind of wild, I'm genuinely trying to understand.
	No, and again, it's almost like I'm more ashamed of it because it seems so.
	But yes, I mean, I had the ability to be like, it's Friday night.
	Everything is great.
	This is the best.
	I'm going out with my friends and like, I don't know, as happy as I could imagine being.
	And then three days later, I could be thinking a negative 10.
	So again, I realize it's like, that's pretty wild, but that was just the way that I felt.
	Right.
	No, that's fine.
	So why do you think, or what was it in your girlfriend's past that had her able to ride this pretty wild roller coaster and not say, look, this is way too booty for me.
	Sorry.
	Peace out.
	Sure.
	I think, again, I didn't necessarily, she had her parents divorced, but she still sort of defended her dad and loved her dad, but they just didn't get along.
	So I don't know.
	Maybe she was sort of used to a different dynamic.
	I'm not exactly.
	Was her dad moody?
	He was an alcoholic.
	So alcoholics are kind of known for up and down, right?
	100%.
	So maybe she was just used to this kind of wild mood swings because of her father?
	Yeah, yeah.
	She said I reminded her of her dad.
	Right.
	Well, okay, so that's more than a theory, I suppose.
	Now, I assume that her father's moodiness was pretty destructive for her, right?
	Yeah.
	And so did you...
	Thank you.
	Not until after.
	Yeah, not until after we broke up and I sort of just realized that I was full of shit on a lot of stuff.
	I guess not at the time, but I definitely realized that.
	Sorry, when in the relationship did you hear from her that you reminded her of her father?
	I would say relatively early on.
	So you knew that it was harmful very early on, right?
	I didn't think of it in that way, I guess.
	I can see what you're getting at, yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And what else characterized the relationship?
	Did you guys have deep conversations?
	Did you have similar moral values?
	Did you have similar world views?
	Or how did that go?
	I would say we definitely had similar worldviews.
	Oh, so she was moody too?
	Yeah.
	And what was her moods like?
	She was very emotional.
	I don't mean that in a pejorative way, but she could, you know, again, she would do the same thing I feel like to me, like where she says everything's fine, but I can tell something's wrong and that just like bugs me.
	Or she would, again, like kind of later on, just, I don't know, just like speak, I don't know, just give me like talk to me in a way that's not acceptable in front of people or whatever.
	So I think she was maybe sort of doing the same thing where I would just be like, Jesus, what's wrong?
	Nothing is wrong.
	And I sort of feel bad, and she's obviously not fine.
	So you were both lying to each other about your true feelings and experiences.
	But this is a great relationship.
	You just did it to me again, right?
	Why?
	Why do you, why do you, why?
	I mean, why?
	Why do you call me up and then tell me things that aren't true?
	Yeah.
	I don't have a good answer for you.
	I guess the answer is that I never didn't realize it, as crazy as that sounds.
	So until like the last five, ten minutes, you thought it was a great relationship?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you broke up with her.
	Did she fight to keep you?
	Yeah.
	And what did she do?
	I had broken up with her several times, and she was always just a big thing.
	She would beg to not have it happen.
	And then eventually I would, within a few weeks or a month at the most, I would realize, like, oh, no, I need to go back.
	And she would take me back, which again, I was always like, that's why I said what I put her through.
	So she literally was on the ground crying and begging me not to do this.
	And I just very kind of coldly was like, no, I can't do this.
	So she definitely fought.
	And the doing this was, was it that she didn't recognize or accept that she was putting you down in front of people?
	Like, did, or did she say, I'll fix that?
	Or like, how did it not get resolved?
	Because, I mean, you both had like a half decade plus into this relationship, right?
	So why was it that you didn't want to go back together with her?
	Did she not acknowledge your faults?
	This is going to sound so stupid.
	I realize that.
	So I guess I'll preface it.
	But I didn't bring up to her like, hey, what you just did was not cool.
	And I didn't even articulate that to her.
	I just hid that from her.
	So you didn't tell her why you were breaking up with her?
	Yeah.
	So, but you must have told her something.
	I just said that I didn't very vague, that I didn't feel like it was meant to be.
	I didn't want to, yeah, I honestly can't remember what I said.
	It was very much by probably boilerplate breakup.
	No idea.
	Okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	All right.
	And so how long since the first breakup did it take to finally, I guess, get the band-aid off?
	Sure, in terms of like the first breakup with her.
	Well, you first said, I don't want to go out with you, and then you have this couple of weeks, month, you'd be back, and then you'd break up.
	And so how long did the exit take?
	Yes, that process was the last, I would say, year and a half.
	Oh, my God.
	You had a year and a half breakup?
	Well, I mean, I broke up with her for like, again, for like stupid reasons in college.
	No, no, no.
	I'm just asking for the timeframe.
	So were you together for three and a half years and then spent a year and a half breaking up or was it something else?
	I mean, you, again, maybe it seems like that probably more now than thinking about it.
	But no, I mean, I broke up with her.
	We got back together.
	And I sort of half-assed at it again.
	No, no, but that's not my question.
	But yeah, so the five-year relationship, do you mean it was three and a half years of being together and then it was 18 months of not being together?
	Is that right?
	Of this kind of slow breakup from hell.
	Yep.
	Okay, got it.
	So it really was a three and a half year relationship with this like endless breakup scenario.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	All right.
	And what was the final straw?
	Did you meet someone else?
	No, I did not.
	So what happened?
	Again, I realized it might, at the time, I just, at the time, I thought in my mind, I'm like, I'm going to marry this girl and I'm going to divorce her because I can't put up with all of what I thought was just stupid bullshit.
	And the way, like, I don't know.
	I just, in my mind, I'm like, this is not going to work for me long term.
	That was the way I thought about it.
	Okay.
	All right.
	All right.
	And have you dated much since?
	Yeah.
	It was sort of like suicided at the beginning.
	I mean, I had plenty of, you know, semi-casual girlfriends in the next couple of years, but it's sort of like, you know, the graph is going down.
	I just, you know, there'll be a girl that seems fine, but I'll break it.
	I usually break it off with the girl.
	But then later on, it seems like I get with girls that only want to hook up and I might want a relationship, but they don't want it.
	So I'm just sort of like, eh, when it's right, it's right.
	And it's just like, you know, I'll go out, but I'm not like chasing it down rapidly.
	And why do you think, is there some particular attribute or characteristic of yours that you think the women like that, in a sense, allows you to get all of these dates?
	I mean, I think I'm fun to be around.
	And I, yeah, I don't know.
	I'm charismatic if I'm talking to a girl.
	Like if I can get on a date with her, I think we'll get along great.
	And yeah, I don't know that it's necessarily much more than that.
	So the girls obviously don't know anything about your suicidality or your bad childhood in some ways or anything like that.
	So you're charming and they don't really get what you're about.
	If I understand it correctly, I'm not trying to oversometh.
	Nope, that's 100% true.
	It's very surface level.
	I can, yes, in the moment it's great, but they don't actually know the depth of things.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you're dealing with women who are not perceptive or curious in that way?
	100%.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	So you kind of have to go for the least wise women around.
	Yeah, I guess so.
	Well, I mean, if that's an unfair characterization, I obviously don't want to make an unfair characterization, but no, I mean, that's it.
	Yeah, I guess that's probably true.
	I guess it doesn't really get to the point where, you know, after in the first few dates, you're not necessarily, I don't know, maybe we're not getting that deep, I guess.
	No, it's not that.
	It's just that wise women have a good instinct for when men are lying to them.
	Right.
	Yep.
	And so if you are someone who is presenting as, you know, a super fun, chill dude, then they will know that.
	They will have an instinct for that, right?
	Yep.
	So that's really sort of all I'm talking about.
	Okay.
	So how many women have, well, I guess the body count is the question, right?
	So how many women would you say that you've slept with?
	High teens to 20.
	Okay, so 20 and you're 27, right?
	33.
	Sorry, 33.
	My apologies.
	Yes, you're good.
	I think, sorry, I had someone else today who was that age.
	All right.
	So, and what's the longest relationship you've had is the sort of three and a half years with a year and a half breakup with your ex, is that right?
	Yeah.
	And what's the longest relationship you've had since then?
	Six months.
	Yeah, maybe nine months.
	Okay, got it.
	And you've never told anyone about this suicidality stuff, right?
	Oh, other women, right?
	No, I mean, I told a doctor once, but it didn't go very well.
	Oh, what's that?
	He sent me to a therapy person who I just bullshitted.
	And basically, I don't know.
	I just probably, I guess, gaslighted the guy and was like, no, everything's fine, but I just, I'm not sure why I'm not happy.
	The same bullshit I was trying.
	And he just gave me some, you know, serotonin reuptake inhibitor thing.
	And I didn't take that.
	I just like, I don't have the problem.
	I'm fine.
	And I never went back and did that.
	So, I mean, I told a doctor once that I had these thoughts, but I basically just like flipped out and didn't continue down that road.
	Okay.
	How old were you when that happened?
	22.
	Okay.
	It's been a while.
	All right.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So what is it that you want to get out of this call, I assume, is some relief from these thoughts, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Okay.
	So I don't know if you've heard me talk to somebody with self-destructive thoughts before, so I'm not sure.
	And of course, I don't want to waste your time.
	If you've heard the stuff before, have you heard my general theory of this stuff?
	I guess not.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what that means.
	You guessed it.
	No, I would know.
	I would say no.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	So let me ask you this question.
	When you were, say, eight or nine years old, if your father had come to you and said your mother has to go away for a month, some relative was ill and she'd have to go away for a month.
	What would your initial emotional reaction be?
	I don't know if I would have much of an emotional reaction.
	I would say I hope I would just want to know what the hell's going on.
	I would be confused.
	Sorry, why would you be confused?
	Do your mother had to go away, some relative, whatever reason.
	It doesn't really matter what the reason is, but what would be confusing?
	No, I would just want to know the details.
	Okay, so let's say you find the details.
	How would you feel?
	How would you feel?
	Like she's out of the house?
	I don't know.
	I would just, you know, I guess at the time I would have said, oh, I wonder when mom's coming back.
	Very, yeah, just very superficial.
	I'm not sure what very superficial means.
	Yeah, I would just be curious when she's coming back.
	And I guess we wouldn't delve into it that much more.
	I don't know.
	So I'm still trying to figure out what emotional reaction you would have.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I'll sort of give you an example from my own life, which is not, of course, to say that this has anything to do with how you would feel.
	But when my mother, she would go away from time to time, she would always be trying to find some boyfriend somewhere who could take care of her and all of that.
	So my mother would go places and so on.
	And every time she was going away, I was thrilled.
	Like I couldn't be happier.
	Because, you know, she was really kind of stressful and volatile and ill-tempered and, you know, all that kind of stuff, right?
	So your mother was, you know, screaming at you three to four times a week, a couple of times a year, you're getting hit in the face.
	And of course, the getting hit in the face stuff, the screaming is part of that.
	Because you're always wondering if it's going to escalate to that, right?
	Yep.
	So that's, I guess, my question is, if you are finding out that your mother is going to be gone for a month, do you view that, or would you experience that as positive or negative?
	I probably, I guess, would have experienced it as positive because we would have gotten to do cool stuff with just Tad, but I don't know that I would have thought about it That deeply.
	It's not a thing, it's a feeling.
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	I guess the feeling would have been initially positive, just because, like, hey, we get to do some fun stuff.
	Right.
	So your life was better off without your mother.
	At least for a time.
	Yep.
	Is that a fair statement?
	I think that's a fair statement.
	All right.
	So what that generally translates to is you want your mother dead.
	Okay.
	Because, you know, if your life would be better off without her, you don't want her around.
	In other words, and now, again, I did a month, right?
	But if your mother was gone in a permanent fashion, I assume at least when you were young, you would view that as a positive overall.
	I never thought of it like that, but I guess that sort of checks out.
	Okay.
	So if you want your mother not around, that's a way of saying, not that you want her dead, but her presence is not a positive for you.
	It would be, yes, if it got to that point, on a subconscious level again at the time, I think it would be more of like there could be some relief associated with that, sure.
	Right.
	And I mean, of course, I know this for myself personally.
	Again, not to say that our experiences are the same at all, right?
	But I know this for myself because at the moment that I could get my mom to leave, we kicked her out.
	Mm-hmm.
	Thank you.
	So, yeah, definitely.
	Certainly for me, my life was better off without my mother.
	And were there times like when your mother would come home?
	I don't know, she'd be out, you'd hear her key in the lock or she'd come in and so on.
	What was your emotional experience of your mother coming home?
	That's very interesting.
	Yeah, I mean, it was essentially, you know, it was, again, the majority of the time, everything was fine, but there was probably an element to where she couldn't walk.
	The majority of the time is not everything was fine because she's screaming at you three to four times a week.
	Sure.
	No, there was an element of, is she going to come in the door and scream at me because something that I did or didn't do some chore or something?
	Yeah.
	There was an element of fear.
	Right.
	And was there ever an element of, yay, mom's home, I yay run down the stairs and enjoy spending time with her?
	I would say that there was an element of that too.
	Yeah.
	It wasn't always necessarily bad.
	And what were the, and of course I'm not disagreeing with you, but what were the good times that you had with your mother that had you be overjoyed when she would come home?
	Like, what were you looking forward to?
	Sure, maybe she rented a movie that was good.
	I mean, it was always, you know, yeah, it was.
	That's not your mother, that's a movie, right?
	Yep.
	More specific to your mother?
	I guess, yeah, I guess I don't know.
	Because it would be kind of odd to me if your mother's screaming at you and hitting you that you would find much enjoyable about her company.
	I mean, that's kind of the price.
	I mean, let me ask you this.
	So if there was a girl and she was a friend of yours and she said, you know, my boyfriend screams at me and has really got a terrible temper and so on.
	And a couple of times a year, he kind of beats me up, would you expect that to be a good relationship?
	No.
	Now, if you had a friend who said that, do you think that you would say to her, you need to work on that relationship?
	Or do you think you would say to her, this is probably a relationship you don't want to be in in the long run or maybe even in the short run?
	Yeah, I would, yeah.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So that would be the case then with your mother, except you didn't even choose your mother as your relationship.
	Correct.
	So that's sort of what I'm, if people are violent and abusive in this kind of way, and just kind of terrifying, right?
	Like having somebody who, you know, screams at you and has a lot of power over you, it's pretty fucking terrifying.
	Yeah, and it was at the time.
	Right, right.
	So it's not now, of course, if you were to say to a woman you knew whose boyfriend treated her the way that, and she said, yeah, but sometimes he brings home nice movies.
	Would you consider that a reasonable explanation?
	No.
	And you'd say, you know, he screams at you and he hits you from time to time.
	I don't think that that's solved by picking up a good movie.
	So that's sort of what I'm trying to point out.
	So when we don't want people in our lives that I don't know if you've heard this phrase, it's like, they're dead to me.
	I've heard that.
	And that's kind of what breakups are.
	Yep.
	Right?
	Because, I mean, the person is dead to you.
	Yep.
	Right?
	Because, I mean, I don't know, when was the last time you talked to the woman that you had the long relationship with out of high school?
	Yeah, I mean, a month after we broke.
	I mean, yes.
	Essentially, since the event, never spoke to her again.
	So yes, dead to me.
	That checks out.
	So when you want people not in your life, that's, it's not exactly, again, it's not the same as wanting them dead, but it's the effect of death, if that makes sense.
	That makes sense.
	So, and so the reason I'm going down this path is to help you sort of understand what was going on In your mind when you were a kid.
	Okay.
	Yep.
	So when you were a kid, why didn't you, and please understand, I'm not saying you should have, right?
	But when you were a kid, why didn't you just tell your mother, back the hell off and stop screaming at you, you crazy witch?
	What the hell's the matter with you?
	Go see a doctor.
	Go get your hormone levels checked.
	My God, this is like, what are you, a toddler?
	This is ridiculous.
	Grow up.
	Essentially what you just said, that last sentence was what I would have said.
	I mean, again, I wasn't in the room with her, but yes, that's, I wasn't, I don't know.
	I was a kid, and I didn't necessarily, I don't think I learned how to think properly until I was in my hate is being screamed at, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I didn't have to.
	Okay, so why don't you scream back and say, back off, you crazy witch?
	No, because that's just.
	Or dad, control your woman.
	No, that was not something that we did.
	No, I get that wasn't something, but why not?
	And this is not a statement to say you've done it, but why not?
	Just the power dynamic.
	That's apparently the power dynamic is so abstract.
	Why not?
	What were you afraid of if you fought back that way?
	Verbally?
	More screaming and more yelling.
	Okay, so then you tell her to calm the hell down, or you're calling the cops.
	Then what?
	That never occurred to me.
	No, I know.
	I'm not saying it would occur to you, but there's a fear about this.
	Why not?
	In my mind, that would have made things.
	Yeah, she just would have blown up even more, or maybe I would have called her bluff.
	Yeah, I mean, that.
	Okay, so then, you know, you turn on your cell phone or someone's cell phone, you record her, and you say, I now have a recording of you screaming at me in the top of your lungs, threatening me, and hitting me.
	And if you ever do this again, I'm sending it straight to Child Protective Services and the police.
	And what's the fear on that?
	I mean, I think that would have worked.
	She would have been very concerned about the outward appearance.
	She wouldn't want the word to get out.
	And that probably would have like, I don't know, worked on her.
	It wouldn't have helped the relationship.
	But maybe that's the point.
	So why didn't you?
	What was I?
	I was a kid.
	I didn't have any power to I didn't know.
	No, no, I'm saying this is how you could have had power.
	You record and you threaten.
	Yeah.
	That never in a million years occurred to me, Steph.
	And to be honest, it doesn't occur to many kids, if any.
	So this is no criticism.
	And the last thing I do is say that's what you should have done.
	But the important question is, why not?
	Why are we so programmed to just shut the fuck up and take it?
	I would say it's a good idea.
	I would really appreciate that too.
	Yeah, I think it's genetic to a certain degree.
	Okay, but why?
	Why?
	Why do we have that mechanism?
	Why is that so universal?
	Like a defense mechanism to not get hit again?
	Right.
	Right.
	So the reason that we don't fight back against abusive parents is we're afraid of getting killed.
	Or abandoned, which is the same thing.
	Or getting less food.
	Or not getting protected from predators or having to sit too far from the fire so we get picked off in the night.
	We're afraid of dying.
	Yes.
	And I think, I think the kids who had the genes to fight back did not last very long throughout most of our evolution.
	Remember, throughout most of our evolution, parents could kill children.
	I talked about this in my tour of Australia.
	Like 40% of Aboriginal kids were just killed.
	So that kind of weeds out anybody who's not compliant, right?
	That checks out.
	Right.
	So if you interpreted, and I'm not saying it's a false interpretation, but if you interpreted your mother's rage and violence as murderous, then you were facing death threats, murder threats.
	I'm not saying that she explicitly said this, of course, but you don't let it get that far, right?
	Like if somebody sticks a knife in your ribs and says, give me your wallet, you give him your wallet.
	You don't sit there and say, well, I'm sure he's bluffing.
	You don't find out people's capacity for violence.
	You don't find out people's capacity for violence.
	Yes, I mean, yeah, I think that's true.
	Certainly as a child, I just don't think I, you know, yes, it was, that was probably those genes are long gone.
	So all threats of violence are death threats.
	Like, it's like the police, right?
	The police, they will escalate violence until you comply or die.
	All threats of violence, all bullying, particularly in the home, particularly against children, is kind of a death threat.
	Because if your mother hits you, right?
	Well, you know, let's say you're, and again, I'm not recommending this, I'm just saying, right?
	So if your mother hits you and you're seven years old, well, you can just go get a rolling pin and wait till she's napping and hit her back.
	But we don't do that, right?
	No kid does that.
	We do that.
	And that's because if you do that, let's say that you did attack your mother back after she hit you, what would happen?
	Yeah.
	Well, very bad things, right?
	Yes, yes.
	It would not be bad things.
	That would be pretty.
	And So with this death, murder, violence threat floating over you, what did you internalize?
	That I had to act in a certain way to be for things to be okay, for things to be, for me to be accepted.
	I mean, yeah, I just.
	Well, I'm talking more specifically about the death stuff in you, the suicide stuff, the self-destructive stuff.
	Okay.
	So I think you got, and, But I do know that that level of rage, bullying, and violence is dangerous for children.
	And even if your mother would never have escalated her violence in any particular way, but I imagine she would have, right?
	Because if she hits you, what if you just slapped her back?
	Well, then she'd slap you back harder, right?
	And then you slap her back harder, and where does that go?
	You don't know.
	But not to a good place.
	Because it only takes one fingernail going into your eye to blind you.
	It only takes you jerking your head back to avoid being hit, to maybe fall down the stairs or slip and hit your head on the corner of a counter and get brain damage.
	Violence is very dangerous.
	So we don't fight back because our gut tells us they will escalate until we comply or die.
	Or, and I'm not saying it's a direct death, but they just don't take care of us that much anymore.
	Exactly.
	Now, death threats almost inevitably evoke murder impulses.
	If somebody threatens to kill you, generally, your impulse is to kill them.
	And again, I'm not talking about your life, modern life.
	talking about how we evolved.
	Thank you.
	Which is why I was asking about, well, what happened if your mother wasn't in your life?
	And generally, if I understand it correctly, it's like, whew, great.
	No screaming, no yelling, no hitting, more fun stuff with dad, right?
	So that's wanting your mom not there.
	Now, the reason, if you instinctually got that she might kill you if you resist, then your impulse, particularly as a boy, as a male, is to want to kill her back.
	So you protect yourself.
	Thank you.
	So with a feeling of a murder threat combined with feelings of murdering others or your mother, you got a big, black-hearted, guilty secret going on, which is an almost inevitable result of the level of aggression, bullying and violence that you were subjected to.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	It's normal.
	It's an inevitable reaction.
	I imagine, given that she caused you stress and tension and was provoking murderous feelings within you and an instinct to want to be dead, right?
	And so let me ask you this in a different way.
	Would your mother love you if you told her the truth about your thoughts, feelings, and experiences?
	About her, involving her in this, or if I just...
	Right?
	Let's say that you were talking to your mother.
	She was on the call and you had a magic wand that waved away consequences.
	What would you say to her?
	What would be the most honest thing or things that you could say to your mother?
	Sure.
	I mean, I think I would say that she, I mean, at this point, I definitely, she's modeled a marriage that what I don't want in a wife.
	I mean, just I basically, I think that's part of, I just, I don't want somebody that's going to talk down to me and give me, just, I don't know, demean me in front of my kids for no reason, seemingly for little stuff.
	And I would feel comfortable telling, I would tell her that.
	Okay.
	And what would you say to her about your experience of her aggression and violence as a child?
	Well, I would just say that, and again, this would just go in one year and out the other, but I would just when you're a single-digit age kid and you hear your mother, you can hear her scream from all the way across the house for you.
	I mean, it's terrifying for the child.
	But she wouldn't.
	Okay, that's very abstract.
	what would you tell her about your experiences directly?
	That's a good question.
	that I hid things from her because I was afraid of the reaction I would get from her.
	Thank you.
	Again, not emotional and very abstract.
	What was your emotional experience of being in the house with your mother when she was screaming at you at the top of her lungs?
	Just fear.
	More than fear.
	More than fear.
	That terror?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And rage?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Humiliation.
	Hatred.
	Yeah.
	I'm not trying to tell you.
	I'm just Trying to put myself in your shoes.
	terror is definitely a better it's a better descriptor than fear yeah And this is why, if your mother wasn't there, you'd feel better.
	It would certainly be less volatile.
	Yes, it would be.
	Yes, it would be.
	So did you wish she hadn't been there?
	Would your life have been better as a child if your mother wasn't there?
	Emotionally.
	At the time or now?
	At the time.
	It's never.
	No, I would say no.
	I mean, never.
	That's my month.
	I mean, because you said at the time if she was gone a month, you'd be kind of relieved or you'd be better off.
	Yeah, just less volatile, certainly in the short term.
	But I mean, I don't know.
	And then someday, you know, she ran the house and kept things.
	It would be different without it, but it would be less volatile.
	I guess that's the best way that I would have thought about it.
	Right.
	So in general, a child who wants to die has someone in the vicinity who wants that child dead.
	We learn self-hatred as surely as we learn any other language.
	And this is not to shore up the position, but there was a very prominent psychiatrist many years ago who said that every suicidal patient he ever treated had parental alter egos wishing them dead, inner parental alter egos.
	So in general, a child who wants to die is manifesting the death wish of a parent who hates the child.
	Could I say that she hates the child unless they live up to a certain standard that the parent has set for them in their own mind?
	Nope, nope.
	No.
	Because you don't have the right to do that as a parent.
	You love the child you have.
	And you were not, you weren't setting fires.
	You weren't torturing animals.
	Pretty good kid, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I never did anything that was serious.
	So were you loved at any point in your childhood by your mother for who you were, without alteration, without conditions?
	I don't want to say one way or the other.
	She made me aware that you have a lot of potential.
	It was, I don't know, I want to call it conditional.
	I mean, I felt like.
	Well, potential is conditional.
	Yeah, for sure.
	I would say it was conditional.
	Now, you said standards.
	Now, you understand that people who are abusive don't have standards.
	they pretend to have standards in order to attack people.
	Because if your mother had, let's say your mother had high standards of behavior, is that right?
	Yes, I would say so.
	Okay.
	So a mother who has high standards of behavior isn't screaming like a fucking banshee at her little children.
	She doesn't have any standards.
	If she had standards, she wouldn't have been such a calamitous witch in raising you.
	Did she say, well, you failed to meet my lofty standards, so I'm going to scream at you.
	You left dishes here, and you didn't clean that up, and you broke this, and so she's screaming at you.
	Okay.
	So she's saying that there are high standards of behavior that people need to meet, and you've got to follow these high, rigid standards.
	It's like, okay, so therefore she must have read up a lot on parenting to make sure that she was parenting well.
	Because she's got high standards, right?
	However, I bet you your mother, I'd bet my eye teeth that your mother did not crack one single solitary book on parenting or take any advice from any expert on how to parent.
	So she doesn't have any fucking standards at all, bro.
	She just invents standards so she can scream at you and bully you.
	She enjoys it.
	She likes it.
	She likes frightening little children.
	She likes bullying little children.
	She likes occasionally smacking little children across the face.
	She likes it.
	So the standards are invented so she can do that without feeling like a sadist.
	But screaming at children, helpless, dependent, chained to you, children, is an act of sadistic cowardice.
	It's not about standards at all.
	Because if she had standards, she would have applied them to her own life, her own parenting.
	Did she also bully your dad?
	Yeah, that was one point that I didn't want to interrupt you.
	But essentially, yes, the dynamic that you just described that she maybe enjoyed having power dynamic over children, I think that that's essentially what she's got going on with my dad, to where he just will not, he will not stand up for himself.
	So I think that that dynamic is in her marriage as well.
	So she feeds off fear.
	Like a vampire, like adrenochrome, right?
	feeds of fear.
	And people who feed off fear, I'm just using the term as a colloquial amateur, sadists take pleasure out of hurting, frightening, and upsetting others.
	Now, if, right, and I'm just going because of the strong feelings of self-destruction you even had in grade three.
	So if you were raised by a sadist, a cruel, vicious, ugly, black-hearted, feeding-off fear sadist, then you probably wanted to kill her to be released from fear.
	But you can't.
	So you have to align with her, which means that you have to take your feelings of rage and murderousness and turn them on who.
	Oh, shit.
	Yeah.
	And turn them on who.
	Missing my case, huh?
	And myself.
	Absolutely.
	And I'm very glad that you did.
	I'm very sorry that you had to, but I'm very glad that you did.
	because otherwise you might not be here.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said.
	I don't.
	When you drew out the theoretical of if she would have hit me, I would have hit her back.
	I guess, you know, having known her more as I'm into adulthood, I can't say with any certainty how that would end.
	I don't think it would be good.
	Female cruelty and male rage is really one of the most defining physics of our time.
	Think of all of the thin-lipped, cruel Karens and teachers and all of the socialist, indoctrinated liberal women coming out of university.
	Female cruelty and male rage is a powerful force in the world, sadly, these days.
	So do you want to get married and have kids?
	That's what I want.
	Absolutely.
	So what's the plus of having your parents into your life?
	I'm not saying there isn't one, obviously.
	I'm just curious.
	Yes, no, it's valid.
	I mean, just the purely practical of having, you know, the babysitter or just the abstract of a child should know their grandparents, but having just the example of my brother and his kids in marriage, I don't know.
	It's maybe a wash because they create so much freaking drama and stress and bullshit for him and his marriage.
	Sorry, no, I don't.
	I'm just saying I could see.
	Oh, you look at the future.
	The future, yeah.
	Yeah.
	It would be a bunch of drama with whoever I married and my mom.
	I know that for a fact.
	Well, pretty much.
	What sort of drama?
	I'm just using the example of my brother and my sister-in-law, but there's just non-stop.
	They just don't, they just butt heads.
	But she's, you know, she's just as stubborn.
	And it's just like two idiots butting heads, and they're both too stubborn to actually talk about what's actually the problem.
	And they just, you know, I don't know, two idiots throwing shit at each other and both saying they're right.
	It's just not a good dynamic.
	Okay.
	How many of your girlfriends have met your parents?
	Four.
	And how many of your girlfriends knew about the violence and aggression in your past?
	Zero.
	Okay.
	How many of your four girlfriends who met your parents, how many of them liked your parents?
	All of them.
	Right.
	So, unfortunately, in order to maintain your relationship with your parents, you have to choose the least perceptive or most traumatized women in the neighborhood.
	Yeah, or just, I guess.
	Not telling the truth.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Well, but as I said, women are pretty good at figuring out who's lying.
	They kind of have to.
	Women have evolved to make sure that a guy who's smooth talking doesn't get in their pants, because otherwise they end up trying to raise a kid with no dad, which lowers the survival chances of everyone involved enormously.
	This is why I find it tragic and comic when women say, I was fooled, it's like, no, you weren't.
	We couldn't have evolved if women were easy to fool.
	Yeah, and I guess just a slight side note, when you said that, that's the number one thing that I don't, that I just know is bullshit about my sister-in-law.
	She was a single mom when my brother married her, but I remember the conversation very vividly.
	He told me that he was dating her and she was a single mom.
	And basically, she has the story that everybody, everybody, including her, fully believes that the husband changed.
	He became this tyrant once they got married.
	But I just, that's 100% bullshit.
	She saw he was a high-status guy in academia.
	She saw through all this or chose not to see this.
	Your brother's a high-status guy in academia.
	This was her first husband.
	She claims she got this previous marriage and had a kid and then divorced him because he changed.
	And I know that's bullshit, essentially.
	Sorry, your brother is a high-status guy in academia.
	Less high-status than the ex-husband of his wife.
	So you were concerned about your brother marrying the single mom, who lies.
	Is that right?
	I was very concerned, and I was 100% honest, and I told him that verbatim.
	Exactly.
	All right.
	And then he failed to listen to you, and he married the manipulative single mother, right?
	Yep.
	So why didn't he listen to you?
	Steph, that's a good question.
	Steph, that's a good question.
	Well, to put it another way, what were the consequences of him not listening to you?
	Yeah, I mean, his chance at having, you know, he was Sure.
	Nothing.
	I mean, he probably just knew that he probably just thought I would end up coming around to her and liking her.
	Well, there's no particular consequences, right?
	Yes, exactly.
	There was really no particular consequences.
	Okay.
	So that's probably why he didn't listen to you.
	He felt obligated to tell me he was dating a girl and it was serious, but beyond that, he wasn't asking for advice.
	He was just telling me.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And how long has he been married now?
	Four years, give or take.
	And has he had a kid with her?
	They have had two children and two nieces.
	And how's the marriage going?
	Thank you.
	I guess I only really, as far as I know from him, him and her are fine.
	I don't know that that's necessarily 100% true.
	The biggest drama that I know about is just between my mother and both of them.
	But I wouldn't bet that it's 100%.
	I think he has a similar dynamic to my dad.
	He just is happy to have a woman to have his kids and run the house and keep things organized.
	And he does, you know, he's just going along to get along.
	And that's, you know, that's what he's doing.
	Okay, got it.
	Now, what's your favorite female name?
	That's a good question.
	Maybe one of my niece's names.
	I don't know.
	It's a tough question.
	Not your niece's name.
	Just a name you like.
	It doesn't have to be head and shoulders.
	A female name?
	Emily.
	Emily?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that is a nice name.
	Now, you know where I'm going with this, right?
	So you meet, tomorrow, you meet Emily.
	She's smart, wise, perceptive, honest, direct, moral.
	And you guys hit it off.
	Right?
	And she starts asking you about your childhood because she's smart and wise, right?
	And she knows when you're lying.
	Right?
	So she won't accept it, right?
	Yep.
	These women exist.
	They really do, I guarantee it.
	I know it.
	Now, Emily then finds out that your parents are unrepentant child abusers.
	Verbal abuse is terrible for children, particularly boys, particularly from a mother, because it sets them up for cuckdom, right?
	It sets them up for being dominated by females, which means they marry a bully of a woman, or they use women for sex and don't get attached.
	Which is you and your brother, right?
	Yep.
	Now, your father, of course, we haven't talked about as much, but he's completely responsible for everything your mother did.
	I don't disagree with any of that.
	He just sat by with, No, no, he didn't just sit by.
	No, he didn't just sit by.
	He dated her, got engaged, got married, and gave her two children, and then kept those children in her orbit.
	I mean, who's worse?
	The guy who hits you or the guy who holds you down?
	Well, they're two sides of the same coin.
	They're both responsible.
	So he held you down while your mother screamed at you and hit you across the face three to four times a year.
	And as far as I understand it.
	And then, yeah, apologize for and justified it.
	Sure.
	I'm sorry?
	No, I mean, he has sent, I mean, if I, and I just, if I had stood up and said, I don't like the way mom is yelling at me, he would have defended her.
	So, yeah.
	Yeah, so he enabled and he held you down while your mother screamed at you and hit you from time to time, right?
	So have either of them repented of their ways and said, we didn't do the right thing?
	We've come in your brother.
	Not at all.
	Okay.
	How are they with your brother's children?
	I think they're...
	Okay.
	So your mother does not scream at your brother's children?
	See, no, I don't think she would.
	I guess.
	Okay, so again, she's completely in control of her temper.
	Now, what does it mean to you that your mother doesn't scream?
	Because I thought she said this was good parenting.
	It's how she was dealt with.
	It's good parenting.
	So if it's good parenting, why doesn't she do it?
	Thank you.
	Yeah, because she's in control of it, sure.
	No, no, but why doesn't she do it?
	Why doesn't she scream and hit her grandchildren?
	Because that's good parenting, according to her.
	Yes, sir.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	That's a good question.
	I mean, she said she's got nothing to apologize for, right?
	According to what you've told me.
	And the fact that they haven't apologized, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So it's just the idea of her hitting them.
	Again, they're pretty little.
	But I mean, I don't.
	It's just even tough to.
	Okay.
	So what if you let's do a mind exercise?
	So let's say you're over and you're you and your mom are babysitting the kids.
	Your brother's kids, your brother and his wife are out for the night or whatever.
	You and your mom are babysitting the kids.
	You go to the bathroom, you come out, and your mother has slapped one of your brother's little kids across the face.
	And he's bawling.
	I'm terrified.
	What do you feel?
	I guess initially just rage at her.
	Maybe uncontrollable.
	It's difficult to even think about.
	Well, the way you controlled it in the past was to be suicidal.
	Yeah, it would be rage would be my initial reaction.
	Right.
	Now, what if she was only screaming at the children and they were also wide-eyed, terrified, and one of them had peed himself?
	I think it would be about the same.
	Don't scream at them.
	Right.
	So you would feel murderous rage towards your mother if you saw her abusing children.
	Yeah.
	So why are your brother's children so much more worthy of protection than you and your brother were?
	What's happened to your murderous rage?
	Because she didn't, you're not just seeing her do it to someone else, she did it to you.
	Dozens of times hitting, hundreds of times screaming.
	Where's your anger?
	Hi there.
	I guess I'd been just been justifying it to myself, but it's for some reason it's different when it's for somebody else.
	I guess I have.
	Now, you know I'm the universal moral guy, right?
	So there is no different for someone else.
	In fact, you'd have more anger at a child abuser who harmed a child hundreds of times rather than just once, right?
	That's right.
	So, back to Emily.
	Emily finds out that your parents colluded in treating you and your brother terribly as children and have never apologized and that they drove you to suicidal thoughts in grade three.
	Right?
	They're all Thank you.
	Now, and then you say, hey, my parents are having us over for dinner on Sunday afternoon and evening.
	Let me know when's the best time to go.
	What is Emily going to say?
	I mean, she'd better say...
	Are we just going to ignore everything in the past and pretend everything's fine?
	I think she would call it out.
	I'm going to go out on a limb and she'd say something like, fuck no, are you crazy?
	Bye.
	Thank you.
	She's also passionate.
	But if she's going to potentially have kids with me, why would she associate with these parents that have proven to do what they've done?
	And that's why you can't get married yet.
	Okay.
	That's why you use women for sex.
	You use women as a dumping ground for your semen, just as your mother used you as a dumping ground for her rage.
	Your sex life is an act of vengeance, not affection.
	And you won't find Emily within a fucking thousand miles of that hunting ground.
	Because you're surrounded by people who did you terrible harm.
	And she can't find you there.
	because she doesn't go there.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	It's like looking for a rich lawyer in a trailer park.
	He's not there.
	You couldn't pay him enough to be there.
	You're trapped in Trash Planet.
	You're trapped in the underworld.
	Hades.
	Gethena.
	You are chained to the underworld, my friend.
	Because you are surrounded by a moat of fucked up people.
	And the good people do not cross that moat.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	And I say this because you're a great guy.
	You have very deep thoughts.
	You have very deep passions.
	And you have gone through a lot for which I have massive, bottomless, huggy if I could, brother sympathy.
	It's not that you went through a lot that is baffling to me.
	I sympathize with that enormously.
	My question is: why the fuck at the age of 33 are you still going through a lot?
	Are you still in this environment?
	It's been 15 years since you became an adult.
	What are you doing here?
	How long have you listened to what I do?
	About ten years exactly.
	Ten years.
	What are you doing?
	I don't understand this journey.
	Is there stuff that I've made unclear over the last 10 years about the price of surrounding yourself with malevolent, corrupt, unapologetic, unrepentant people?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Have you given up on finding better people?
	It's so hard to see when you're so close to it, but when you say it like that, I. I disagree with anything just on.
	So then the question is, why are you still there?
	I mean, you've listened to me.
	I've told people about a zillion times.
	If you've got issues with people, sit down and be honest with them.
	And you won't do it.
	And I said, you can't find quality people, but you're surrounded by corrupt and malevolent people or gaslighting people.
	And you won't change.
	And I'm genuinely with humility and curiosity.
	I'm just trying to understand why.
	It's going to ask you an odd question.
	It's going to sound like a complete non-sequitur.
	Have you kept your hair?
	I have.
	Yeah, how did I know that you had?
	I have no idea.
	Because you're existing in a peculiarly masculine state of no time.
	Later, later, later.
	No urgency, no urgency, no urgency.
	Time's not ticking away.
	don't have the same egg clock that women have.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Do you get the passage of time?
	Sure.
	I bet there's the, like you said, there's less urgency.
	There's less urgency.
	Do you get that if you want a reasonably large family, you can no longer marry a woman your own age?
	Yeah, that's where I'm at, but it's kind of difficult.
	Yeah, I mean, I'm aware of that.
	Do you get that you're 33 and you have no history of a successful relationship with a woman?
	I'm not counting the first one because you didn't tell her anything about your actual life and thoughts deep down.
	And you gaslit and lied to her.
	And I say this not with some big condemnation, right?
	That was an instinct.
	You had to hide your murderousness, as we all do if we're abused, right?
	But at 33, and the longest relationship you've had in 10 years is six months, and you're dating women who are not strong or perceptive or particularly moral, otherwise, you wouldn't be calling me because they would have done the job.
	So you are running out of time because you are developing bad habits in dating.
	Short-term, lust, falsehood, manipulation, gaslighting.
	When you date women, do you say that you're looking for something serious, or is it kind of accepted that this is a fly-by-night flake?
	It definitely depends on the girl.
	I mean, if there are certainly times when I'll just, if, you know, I don't know, looking at the girl, like where I'm okay with just a short-term thing, but if it's a girl that I think, okay, I actually might like her personality, I am actually upfront and I say, look, I do eventually want to get married and have kids.
	I'm never going to lie or pretend that's not the case.
	Okay, so the women that you don't like their personality, do you tell them that you do like them?
	If it gets to that point, I guess.
	No, no, I mean, you sleep with them, right?
	So do you say, I don't like you particularly, I'm just horny, and this isn't going to go anywhere?
	I've never said that.
	Well, I'm not saying those exact words, but do you pretend that there's something more to get laid?
	Do you pretend that you like the girl?
	Yeah, I think that's...
	So every time you do that, it costs you a part of your soul.
	Thank you.
	I mean, if you have a daughter, how would you feel about a scabby, hairy-legged boy who lied to her just to get into her pants and then dump her?
	I would love it.
	Yeah.
	How would you feel?
	Feel mad at the guy and responsible for her.
	So that's you.
	That's you.
	And women, quality women, will smell that coming off you.
	Do you get that?
	Yes, I definitely do.
	I mean, I suppose I haven't been, where are all the high-quality women?
	But I guess it's just the circumstances of, I guess I haven't been meeting them.
	But yeah, I know they certainly should.
	Here's the thing, man.
	You might have met Emily yesterday or the day before, last week, or last month.
	You might meet her two weeks from now.
	You might meet her in six months.
	You might meet her tomorrow.
	But you're not ready.
	Because you're not dedicated to honesty, vulnerability, openness, directness, moral courage, curiosity, integrity.
	Not using people.
	Not lying to people to get what you want.
	And I'm not saying you're a bad guy.
	Of course, I understand where all of this comes from, and I really do sympathize with it.
	But you've got to get ready for Emily.
	can't get ready for Emily after you beat her.
	Thank you.
	If you've been working in a sewer, you don't shower after the date.
	Because you show up like that, there's no date, right?
	Yeah.
	So you got to get ready.
	The time for me to meet my Emily was after therapy.
	Not before.
	Have you ever done any ice?
	Have you ever done any sort of longer talk therapy?
	Not at all.
	So that's another piece of advice that you don't take, at least for me, right?
	No, essentially, I know that it would be, like, But you're late in the game.
	You understand?
	Emily is getting rarer and rarer in your world every day.
	Because the moment some guy finds an Emily and he's ready and she's ready, they get married.
	Like that.
	And then he doesn't let her go.
	He does whatever is necessary to keep the relationship happy and positive.
	So, So I'm here to remind you, because listen, we men, we have to remind each other of the passage of time because we don't have periods, we don't have that metronome of monthly eggs, and we don't have the saying, we don't age as fast, particularly if you don't lose your hair.
	So it's real easy to get stuck in no time, right?
	That's for sure.
	So I'm just here to remind you that you're the age of Jesus.
	And when you come to the auction late, most of the good stuff is gone, right?
	And if you're spending your time having fairly manipulated or manipulative sex with women you don't particularly care for, then there's a very big cost for that, which is you're learning all the bad habits and moving in all the wrong circles.
	And your odds of getting married to a quality woman are zero.
	Not just low.
	They're zero.
	And if you haven't cleaned up your relationship with your parents, whatever that means to you, then it is not going to happen with Emily.
	Because Emily is going to be, you know, somewhat like your age, right?
	And Emily is not going to want to go through this battle of trying to protect her children from your parents when you're still hanging out with them and aren't working on that night and day to kind of clean it up, right?
	Because she's going to be in her late 20s or early 30s, probably, right?
	Because it takes her for a while to clean things up too, right?
	So she's not going to have a couple of years for you to fix your family shit.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	And she already, to become quality, she will have fixed her family shit.
	So she's not going to want to start on that journey with you.
	No, not out of any hatred or anything.
	It's just don't have time.
	In the same way that she's not going to want to, if she wants to have kids relatively soon, she's not going to, if you say, well, I want to go and start a PhD, right?
	She'd be like, well, you know, good luck with that.
	But, you know, that doesn't fit into my timetable at all, right?
	So I'm just trying to give you that sense of urgency.
	Because right now, I would say that maybe the murderousness of your parents has moved to genetics.
	In other words, they're not, are your parents talking to you about the passage of time?
	Not really, no.
	Right.
	So they're just kind of seducing you into no kids by not saying, hey, what the hell's going on, man?
	Like, you got to get moving.
	They're just like, yeah, no time.
	Yeah, no time.
	You're fine.
	Don't worry about it.
	We won't say anything.
	That's not good at all.
	I mean, if your daughter is, you know, in her early 30s and is still screwing around on useless relationships, wouldn't you say something?
	I think I would.
	So, So is your brother talking to you about why are you still dating all these trashy women and why are you just like, what's going on?
	Get married, bro.
	It's time to be more serious.
	You're pushing your mid-30s.
	Yeah, it doesn't come.
	Yeah, at some point, it just almost becomes embarrassing.
	And, you know, it's just like, I understand.
	Like, yeah, I don't know.
	It's kind of awkward, but.
	Well, it shouldn't be.
	It should be something that is being discussed and talked about.
	Thank you.
	So, yeah, there's a lot I think that, and maybe if you have, I'm sure you have some access to thought therapy.
	And I would assume that that's, I think that's a, that's a good plan.
	And I hope that the death wish, the suicidality, I hope it's got some context with regards to, it's not weird, it's not bad, it's not wrong, it's a natural result of that level of aggression.
	And also, you know, lack of male protection from your father, right?
	That's really bad, right?
	So the fact that your father didn't protect you from your mother, but rather instead just kind of kept you in this orbit is really terrible.
	And so you end up with this anger, this murderousness, because you're not protected.
	If you were protected, then you wouldn't have had this level of extremity.
	If that makes sense.
	That definitely makes sense.
	So it's not weird.
	It's perfectly understandable.
	What would be weird is if you didn't feel that, if that makes sense.
	And again, I'm really sorry for this.
	Of course, you should have had people who protected you and kept you safe.
	Yeah, I always just sort of assumed it was like a genetic predisposition.
	Yeah, that's the story you tried to tell me at the beginning, right?
	And I sympathize with that.
	And of course, that's what your parents want.
	Your parents want that.
	Because then you don't talk to them about like, dad, why didn't you protect me, mom?
	Why were you so full of rage?
	Like, what the hell?
	But then I guess to some degree, isn't it just probably there's been several generations that have just been going through the same sort of a thing with one result or the other?
	I mean, that's sort of why we've gotten to this point.
	Is that fair?
	I'm not sure what you mean.
	That previous generations of my lineage have had the, you know, maybe they've had kids or they didn't, but if they've either, you know, ignored things and just,
	you know, gotten a relationship, got married and been unhappy, or yeah, aren't we just really repeating what's been going on for generations?
	Sorry, are you trying to give me some determinism here?
	Because I say that's really optimistic.
	I certainly appreciate that optimism that you would try and give me, of all people, some kind of determinism that's kind of almost impressive.
	So what's the answer to that?
	Thank you.
	Your mother abused you, I say, and so did your father, because they said, hey, you got to do better, kid.
	We got these standards.
	You got to do better.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	You got to improve.
	You got to do the right thing.
	You got to do better, right?
	Isn't that what they said?
	That is what they said.
	Right.
	So then saying, well, they had no choice to improve, once you correct a child and brutalize a child for not living up to a standard, you can't ever claim determinism at all, right?
	You understand that, right?
	I do.
	Yeah.
	Because otherwise, if your parents were like, hey, man, it's all determinism and we don't have a choice and all of that, then they would have said, well, there's no point correcting children because, man, it's all deterministic.
	He can't do any better.
	It's just his genes.
	So, no, that whole ship of determinism sailed the moment they started being aggressive towards you and trying to improve you and make you better and fix you and have you rise to their lofty standards, right?
	So then they're saying it's free will and you are responsible for what you do and there's no determinism.
	So yeah, don't go down that road.
	that way madness lies.
	So, yeah, no, you're going to have to give them moral responsibility because that was their entire methodology of attack against you was giving you moral responsibility, right?
	Yeah, I had the responsibility.
	Right.
	So, yeah, I mean, so then trying to give them a defense called no moral responsibility is invalid.
	I mean, they certainly couldn't argue against it, right?
	Because they can't say, well, you see, you were responsible for doing the right thing when you were five, but we, we, at the age of 40, we were just totally determined that we couldn't do the right thing.
	I mean, that's insane.
	Not that you're insane, but that argument would be insane, right?
	Yeah.
	They were true.
	You had perfect free will at the age of five, but we, you know, we were just helpless adults in charge of children.
	We couldn't possibly do anything.
	We couldn't possibly do anything.
	No, that doesn't fly, right?
	The moment your parents corrected you, they accepted that there was improvements to be made and there was no such thing as determinism.
	So, nope, it doesn't work.
	I mean, that would be like me being a gym trainer and then saying people can't possibly change their diet and exercise habits.
	It's like, well, that would make you a con man then, wouldn't it?
	Or make me a con man, right?
	So, yeah.
	And your parents will, in your mind, your parents will mount a whole series of defenses.
	And I hope that you, I don't know if you've read peaceful parenting.
	Sometimes people think that peaceful parenting is just for parents.
	It's actually more valuable for children than parents, sort of victims of abuse than parents.
	So I hope that you read that too, because that's a good book for making sure that your parental alter egos don't have any bullshit defenses that disable your anger.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	That's most of what I wanted to get across.
	And again, I hate to repeat myself, but I generally do.
	But I am, again, really, really sorry for everything that happened when you were a child.
	As a parent myself, just the idea that people do that stuff to kids is just so appalling.
	And the anger that you would feel if you saw your parents abusing your niece and nephew or whoever, you are absolutely as deserving of that level of protection and anger at being mistreated.
	You are absolutely deserving and worthy of that.
	And I'm sorry that you didn't get it.
	But you can get it now.
	Basically, what happened on this call is what I'd it seems like I've listened to a ton of it, but it's you, whoever you're talking to has a clear blind spot for like the most obvious thing to everybody but them.
	Well, right.
	I mean, I have my blind spots and I need people to help me with that too.
	So again, I say this with all humility for this kind of stuff for sure.
	Yeah.
	I guess I just appreciate you bearing with me because I sort of realized that it was probably very obvious that I was not seeing what was right in front of me.
	You want to see it, but your parents don't want you to see it.
	And you have to obey your parents in order to survive, just like we all did.
	So again, I say this with great humility and with great zero criticism of anything that you did.
	I mean, I'm not necessarily like, you know, opposed to, I mean, what's actionable on this?
	I mean, should I just, do I just need to have, I just need to have a conversation with them where I'm actually honest?
	Is that kind of what I think?
	I mean, if your kid was unhappy, wouldn't you want to know?
	That's all.
	And this way you can find out if they care about you.
	I mean, that's all honesty is, is basically just finding out if people care about you.
	You know, if someone in my life comes to me and says, Steph, you did something that made me really unhappy, or at least I think you did, I'd want them to tell me because I care about them and I don't want them to be unhappy, right?
	I mean, if you're in bed with some woman and you're doing something that's uncomfortable for her, you want her to tell you, right?
	So, you know, whereas if, you know, you're some jerk in bed and some woman says, this is really uncomfortable, and you're like, well, I don't care because it's good for me.
	Well, clearly you don't care about that woman, right?
	So honesty is just finding out if people actually care about you.
	It's really all it is.
	And just as sort of a side note, I'm aware of the fact that, which is part of why I think why I've been reluctant to talk about suicidality with somebody is I can see that.
	I mean, if somebody tells you that they're feeling that way, I mean, I don't know.
	It seems it could almost be manipulative to, I don't know, what are they going to kick you out after you tell them?
	I don't know.
	Oh, like it's such an extremity.
	Oh, yeah.
	Like, so there's, there's, of course, the really dysfunctional and destructive women who are like, if you leave me, I'm going to kill myself.
	So I did not think that for a moment, but I can certainly understand that perspective.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	I just would hate that.
	I don't know.
	I'm almost like, yeah, what are they going to do?
	Say you're wrong.
	I don't know.
	I just, I guess I've been wrong.
	Well, what your parents should do is they should really try to understand what happened that ended up with you in this mindset because they care about you.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I'm sure that you would want to know that if your kid was unhappy, that you did something that was making them unhappy.
	You'd want to know.
	Yeah.
	So it's just finding out if people care about you, right?
	Do they care if you're unhappy about something or are they just defensive and they gaslight you and all this kind of stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	And that's all we're trying to sort of sort out with honesty.
	But honesty is the great sorting mechanism of finding out if people care about you or if you're just a convenience for them, right?
	That's one point.
	Because, you know, selfish people will just view you, your honesty, as inconvenient.
	Whereas people who care about you will want to help you with whatever's troubling you.
	Yeah.
	And that's what we it's just, it's really the ultimate love test.
	And you've got to find out if people love you or not.
	Because you don't want to labor under the illusion of people loving you if they don't.
	Because if you're not loved, it's pretty important to know, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I really appreciate it, Steve.
	And listen, last thing I'll say, and of course you've probably heard me say this before, that if you do feel self-destructive or negative in that kind of way, I would absolutely say demand, you know, because that sounds very bossy and all of that.
	But I would really feel good if you would give me that commitment that if you do feel that way, that you will call a helpline, you will go to ER, you will call a therapist or you will find some way to deal with it.
	Because, you know, I understand that these things are difficult and, you know, dealing with parental alters and honesty in a corrupt family can be very tough.
	But if you could just give me that assurance, I would feel a zillion times better if you wouldn't mind that you will get in touch with someone who can really help, who's, you know, good in the field, if that makes sense.
	I can, absolutely, Steph.
	I really appreciate that.
	That's the premise.
	Yeah, I appreciate that.
	And of course, that's the last thing that I wanted to mention.
	Again, also just, you know, big virtual hug.
	And I wish things had been different, but you can have, you know, it's funny because for me, like all the negatives of child abuse are way in the past.
	And of course, I'm older than you, right?
	But all the negatives of child abuse, they're way in the past.
	All the pluses of child abuse, and there are pluses, right?
	All the pluses of child abuse are like right in the present.
	So I'm getting a good deal these days.
	Yeah.
	So, and that, that, you know, that's going to be your life as well, I'm sure of it.
	I think so.
	This has been great.
	I appreciate it so much stuff.
	You are very welcome.
	And keep me posted.
	And obviously wish you the very best.
	And I would, again, strongly recommend some therapy and all of that, because otherwise, you know, you're going to have to reinvent the wheel a lot.
	And, you know, there's not a need for that in particular.
	So, all right, keep me posted.
	And sorry, go ahead.
	I'm just so skeptical of people.
	And I, is there any way, like, is there like a database of therapists that you would like to do?
	I'm a big fan of Internal Family Systems Therapy.
	And I did have a show, I guess, 1927 or 1929 or something like that.
	It's called How to Find a Great Therapist.
	And at least it's my thoughts on the matter.
	So you can go and just do a search for therapist at FDR Podcasts and you can find that.
	Or, you know, you can ask on the message boards and so on if there's people who if there's people who've had good experience with you know maybe a particular therapist or a especially if he works remotely then then you can sort of ask around I can't go around recommending therapists because I can't really vet people that way but yeah you can certainly ask around and again I've done a show and I think internal family systems therapy is I had the guy on many years ago Richard Schwartz I think his name was this a good book to read about

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