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June 20, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:19:24
Everything I Have Has Burned to the GROUND! CALL IN SHOW
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Yeah, let's see.
Well, this was last Friday, so this was a week ago.
My wife and I lived in this house out in the country, I'll just say in the central U.S. And, well, a wildfire came through.
I was out of town, which made it worse.
I was with some guys from church.
I was supposed to be at a men's retreat.
For our church in the next state over like five hours away.
So I was out there.
Wildfire came through.
Yeah.
And my wife, I started getting calls from my wife on the way out there.
She said, you know, I'm starting to see a lot of smoke.
Like, I'm getting a little bit nervous.
It's not super bad yet.
So I told her, excuse me.
So I told her, you know, just keep an eye on it.
I'll keep an eye on the emergency.
Emergency alerts and stuff like that online.
I didn't see anything immediately in our area, so I thought at first it was smoke from other fires around us that wasn't immediately next to us, because that can happen.
So then a couple hours later, I get another call from her saying the smoke's getting worse.
I'm getting really nervous now.
I don't feel like it's safe here.
So I said, you know, You know, go to your mom's.
Her mom lives in the city, like an hour away from us.
We're out in the country, or we were.
So she got out, and then, so later that night, I started getting calls from my neighbors saying, it burned your chicken coop.
It's up next to your house.
Getting in the door.
One of them was trying to fight the fire.
Both of them were actually over there at different times trying to fight the fire.
I was getting calls from my neighbors just giving me updates on the situation.
I'm trying to put it out.
It's getting worse.
I don't think I can get it under control.
Ultimately, they were not able to stop it.
It got up in there, got up in the walls, and got up in the ceiling insulation.
Yeah, took the whole thing out.
So as soon as I found out it was threatening the house directly, we were headed back.
We turned around and booked it back home, but we were still five hours away.
So by the time we got there, it was already pretty much done burning.
So, yeah, I can pretty definitively say that was the worst day of my life so far.
Wow.
Okay, so, I mean, you lost...
Yeah, well, basically everything we owned.
So, like, I mean, I had, you know, a couple changes of clothes with me for the weekend trip, some toiletries.
My wife was able to save, fortunately, our box full of important paperwork, like insurance and mortgage paperwork and social security cards and all that.
So that was good thinking on her part.
But other than that, it was everything.
The thing I'm most upset about losing is my books.
I had probably a hundred books in there.
When I read books, I mark them up.
I underline things and write in the margins and do all that.
So I can replace the books, but I can't ever get back my record of what I was thinking when I read the books.
That's tough to lose.
There was also lots of sentimentally valuable stuff in there, like my wife's wedding dress, my wedding suit, a bunch of other wedding-related stuff, gifts from people that we've gotten over the years.
Besides all the furniture, the bed, All the appliances, everything in there was totally destroyed.
And your chickens?
All but one of them were gone.
Any other pets?
We had two dogs, actually, that both made it.
They were okay.
We live on 20 acres out there.
And we have a small herd of cows, so all the cows made it, and the dogs.
But all but one of the chickens got toasted.
All but one of the chickens, right?
All but one of them, yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Photos, other documents, books, writing.
You said the books, of course, but writing or any journals, diaries, like anything else that was sort of major that is irreplaceable?
Yeah, I had notebooks full of notes on the books I read.
I have a podcast, a history podcast, so I had a lot of books that I was reading for that, notebooks full of notes on those, like that kind of thing.
So, yeah.
Okay.
All right.
And how long ago was this?
A week ago.
A week ago.
Of course, I'm incredibly sorry.
It's devastating.
I completely...
Yeah, it's the most devastating thing that's ever happened to me in my life.
Like, it's surreal.
Right, right.
to even think about.
Like, I'm not even...
It hasn't really even sunk in yet that, you know, life is just completely different now.
So, I mean, obviously, financially speaking, you have the insurance and you can rebuild, I guess, over time.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Yeah, we're actually...
We're getting a lot of help from our church parish.
My employer is helping me out a lot, which is nice.
We're getting tens of thousands of dollars in donations from people we barely even know sometimes, like friends and family just sharing out.
That part of it is a huge relief to not be in money trouble during all this.
Like, we're going to have plenty of money to do what we need to do and rebuild.
So, that part is a huge relief.
Right.
So, the rebuilding part?
I assume that if there was a big bunch of fires, then rebuilding is going to take a time.
Yeah, that's true.
So do you have a time frame, or have you contacted anyone, or when do you get a roof over your head again?
Well, we're staying at the house of a guy that we know from church.
He actually, he's a retired doctor.
Like he has multiple houses and he's not staying in this one.
So we're staying in his place for the time being.
Insurance does give us money for temporary housing.
Like that's part of our coverage.
So we're good.
We're good on a roof over our head temporarily.
But as far as rebuilding the old house, I remember, I haven't even started the process of contacting contractors and all that.
I did go out there and start cleaning up a little bit.
But yeah, I don't really know how long it's going to take to rebuild.
Right, okay.
And kids?
One daughter.
She's just over a year old.
Oh, okay, okay.
And obviously, she's fine.
She was with you guys, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, my wife got her out.
So that's the most important thing, is that they were both okay.
Yeah, the day could have been a whole lot worse, right?
Yes, absolutely.
Right, okay.
All right, and what's your major question?
I certainly have my thoughts, but it's your conversation to direct.
So what's the major areas I can help you with?
Well, I thought, first of all, you know, I thought I could see if philosophy maybe could unburn my house, first of all.
But besides that, I figured you would be the guy to know.
Let's make that a plan B. Let's put that on the side burner for a moment.
And let's assume that that's a plan B. And what's plan A?
Yeah, yeah.
Well, I guess I'm just looking for, like, I'm trying to wrap my mind around this new situation and figure out,
This is totally uncharted territory for me, and I'm very uncertain about the future.
Let's put it that way.
Right.
Okay.
The major ways in which I can help you is to try to help emotionally process this devastating fire.
Yes.
Yeah, absolutely.
You are a Christian man?
Yes.
So, my understanding is that you have to try and find the good in everything that happens and the lessons and the growth in everything that happens, right?
Right.
So, just off the top of my head, you're getting a real sense of how much you're loved in the community, right?
Yes, absolutely we are.
You wouldn't have that otherwise.
I can't imagine what this would be like if we didn't have any friends.
Like, it would be much more devastating.
Right.
So, so, I mean, the power of faith, the power of community, the power of love for you and your family, the power of generosity.
You're forging relationships here that are going to last the rest of your life.
So, that's a pretty powerful thing, right?
Yeah.
Yes, it is.
Now, again, it's not like we want these bad things to happen, but our challenge is to find the good in the bad.
Otherwise, we're just at the mercy of every bad thing and can't find anything positive, right?
Mm-hmm.
The house...
If we had, I mean, we do plan to have more kids.
I would say it was big enough to where we could comfortably have four or five kids.
But if we had any more than that, I think we would probably want a bigger place.
I mean, like most houses that you buy rather than build, I assume that there were things that you wanted to change.
Yeah, I can think of a few things.
I mean, doesn't your wife, I'm going to get all kinds of sexist here, but doesn't your wife get to design an entirely new kitchen?
Yes, she does.
I mean, she said that very thing to me.
Women terraforming kitchens is something that men cannot comprehend.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's fine.
She can't comprehend why I need another microphone for my studio.
That's fine.
But I can't comprehend why the backsplash is so offensive to my wife's sensibilities.
That's just a cosmic mystery that God himself would shake before.
So your wife gets to design a whole new kitchen, which is apparently what some women live for for quite some time.
If I ever want to have an exciting conversation with my wife, I say to her, so what do you think of the kitchen as it stands?
Right.
Every list, everything, every problem is detailed.
And I'm like, to me, I grew up in a crappy government apartment.
So for me, everything that's not a crappy government apartment is a paradise.
But as long as she keeps her improve everything to the kitchen and not me, I think that's good.
That's probably a good thing.
So you can do all of that.
Your daughter, while quite young, right, depending on how long this takes, she might get a chance to have some input into the kind of room she gets, right?
Maybe she wants bunk beds built into the wall.
Maybe like in terms of cool things that you could do that would be kind of fun for her, right?
So love of the community, getting a chance to redesign everything.
And...
Yeah.
It's just stuff.
Now, the books, I get that.
Yeah, go ahead.
On that note, this is something I've been thinking about over the last week.
We went to church last Sunday and our priest was talking about this a little bit and talking about how God allows these things to happen.
And I've been thinking part of it could be God teaching me to be less attached to stuff.
Everything gets thrown out, man.
Everything gets thrown out.
Yeah, yeah.
Eventually, right?
And the other thought I had was, so on Saturday, this happened last Friday.
On Saturday, there were a bunch of people.
Our whole area was hit pretty hard by this.
There were hundreds of homes burned to the ground.
One of the small towns near us, there were people in a gas station parking lot handing out food and clothes for people affected by the fires.
I stopped by and got some stuff for us because we're all mostly fresh out of clothes where we were a week ago.
And that got me thinking, I'm like, you know, there's a lot of stuff in that house that I cared about and I really didn't want to lose.
But on the other hand, there's a lot of junk that I really didn't care about.
You had a spring cleaning from the fiery wind.
Yeah.
And I'm like, you know, how many clothes did I have stashed away in some closet that I could have donated to something like this at some point?
And I just never made the effort to do it.
And it's like...
Stuff I didn't care about.
Yeah, it's a relief of a burden in a way.
So, worst day of your life.
That's a powerful statement.
And it seems to me that if a fire where you're fully insured is the worst day of your life, you've lived a pretty charmed life.
I'm not kidding about that.
Yeah.
So, I mean, your wife's healthy, you're healthy, your daughter's healthy, you have insurance, you can rebuild, and in some ways it will be better.
It's your house now.
It's just a house you had before.
Now it's your house going forward, right?
And you're forging stronger bonds with people in the community.
You're learning the power of faith and generosity and charity, which I'm sure you will pay forward going forward.
I'm not saying you haven't in the past, but it'll probably be even more important going forward.
It is always the question, and it's a very foundational question when bad things happen.
The question is, do you compare it to it not happening, or what could be worse?
right?
Like if you get sick, let's say you get sick and you have a path to getting better, right?
Well, do you compare getting sick to not getting sick or do you, compare getting sick but getting better to getting sick and not getting better.
Hmm.
Thank you.
And that's the foundational question.
So if you're going to compare things to nothing bad happening, everything bad is really bad.
If you compare bad things happening to could be worse, there's Thank you.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
So, do you think that you compare this to, well, if this just hadn't happened at all, this is a debt negative, which of course it is, right?
Or do you say, holy crap, man, if you're going to have a fire, nobody got hurt, nobody got killed, and We're insured, and thank goodness we did the right and prudent thing, and bad things are going to happen in life.
You know, it's like if you have, you know, like I'm in my 50s, so there are occasional, you know, twinges and, you know, whatever negative things that can happen.
Nothing major, but, you know, just this cavalcade of, like, little things.
Oh, my cough is a little tender or, you know, whatever, right?
And so if I say, well, geez, compared to my 20s, I'm a wreck, right?
I mean, then I have a standard called my 20s, and everything is just a massive decline from that, so to speak, right?
Or if I say, you know, man, for 58, I've got no chronic conditions, I've got no arthritis, I've got no back pain.
40% of men have, like, back pain, right?
And so, you know, pretty good, right?
So, there is a huge amount in life that is depending on the big question of philosophy, which is compared to what?
Right?
So if you, I mean, you've had this terrible fire, of course, compared to not having this terrible fire, it's a disaster.
However, there's other comparisons to be made.
Yeah.
So have you had not being insured or having a.
I mean, it can happen even after the fire.
You're in there poking around and a wall collapses.
I don't know what it looks like, but, you know, something like that could land on you or whatever, right?
Or you had a beloved dog that died, or both.
I guess you said two that made it, right?
So, you weren't there and your wife and daughter got out totally fine.
So, the disaster missed everything but the stuff.
So, have you had a charmed life?
Have you been peculiarly lucky?
I mean, what decade of life are you in?
I'm in my early 30s.
Early 30s.
Okay, so you're a relatively young man.
So, have you had a pretty charmed life that this is the worst thing?
I mean, I think so.
I think...
I wasn't comparing it to what could have been worse.
But I mean, now that you put it that way, it seems like it's not really the worst thing.
Well, no, because you would have had that comparison to other things as well, right?
Like everything would be compared to nothing bad happening.
Yeah, I see.
So, if this is the worst thing that's happened to you, then that would be compared to other.
It would be compared to, like, let's say that you lost a dog when you were 12, but you would also compare that to not losing your dog when you were 12 or something like that, right?
So, if you've had the standard that perfection is the key and everything that deviates that is just this massive net negative, Then you would have had that standard as a whole in your life, if that makes sense.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So, give me the second and third bet.
And I'm certainly not saying this isn't the worst thing that's happened to you.
I'm not saying that at all.
What I am saying, though, is what are the other things that you're comparing it to?
That's a good question.
There's my daughter.
Thank you for telling me.
I thought your wife just had a very high voice.
I would have trouble ranking other things, to be honest.
I mean, there's nothing really comparable as far as like, if the comparison is this happened versus this didn't happen, like there's nothing really I can think of that.
Like, I mean, I've had a couple of bad breakups in my early to mid-20s, but those were like, I wouldn't even put those in the same category, really.
Yeah, I can certainly understand that.
So, you've not had any health issues that are significant?
People you love don't have health issues that are significant.
So, I mean, you seem to have dodged some bullets, which is, I mean, not a bad thing.
It's just a good thing.
Yeah, I've had a couple of pretty serious injuries.
Like, I tore a muscle, I tore a major muscle one time lifting.
I was competitive and strongman for a while.
And I had a pretty major injury.
So I guess that's kind of the same category.
But no chronic health issues or anything like that.
Your parents are in good health and so on?
Yeah, they're in good health.
And grandparents?
Well, I only have one surviving grandparent left.
I was never particularly close to any of my grandparents, but one of them died when I was probably...
And two more have passed on since.
One of them's in her 90s now.
My grandma's in her mid to late 90s, so she won't be too much longer either.
Good.
Okay.
And so your parents are together and in good health, and you've had good health.
I don't really count the torn muscle.
I mean, because that's just the risk of exercise, right?
That's not bad luck.
To some degree, that's just, you know.
Natural risk, right?
So this is your first major disaster?
Yes.
Right, okay.
So that makes sense to me.
And tell me about your relationship with the books.
Can you wash it for a little bit?
Thank you.
I love those sounds.
I really do.
I miss that age.
It's where they're first discovering their voice.
I love that.
Yeah, yeah.
She's just lately gotten really good at walking, too, which is a treat.
It's super cute to watch them waddle around with their little toddler legs.
It's the cutest thing.
Yeah, it's more vertical motion than horizontal, right?
Yeah, yeah.
I'm sorry, what was your question?
The books.
Tell me about your relationship.
Use the hundred books you said with the notes.
Yeah.
Well, this has been going on for probably close to ten years now.
I've gotten into philosophy and reading all the classics like Homer and Plato and Aristotle and all this stuff.
So I had all of those books.
Those are the books I'm talking about.
Besides the one I'm reading for I had this big old volume of the complete works of Plato, and I had read almost the entire thing.
I had probably 50 pages of it left to get through, so that was Lost in the Fire.
There's all my notes in there.
That's the part that's not replaceable, is my own record of What I was thinking when I read them before.
Okay.
Now, you've absorbed the works, though, right?
I mean, they're in your head.
Yeah.
Because philosophy is not on a bookshelf, right?
Philosophy is in your mind that you act on.
Right, right.
Yeah, I mean, they're in my head to some extent.
I mean, a lot of them are pretty hard books, like difficult books, and I don't know how, you know, I'm sure I didn't understand.
1% of what's in there.
Oh, I doubt that.
No, no, no.
More than 1%.
More than 1%.
Okay, let me ask you this.
So how many hours a week did you spend going back and rereading the notes that you had in these books?
Oh, not very much.
Just give me an hour.
Probably less than an hour a week, if that.
Okay, so like a tiny, tiny fraction of a percent of your week was spent not reading the books, but your notes.
And in what circumstances would you go back and read notes in your books?
If I was reading the same book again, or the same chapter, or the same dialogue, or whatever.
If I read the same one again, I would...
Or if I'm discussing it with a group, because I did that a lot, discussing it with a group of friends, I would look back through and see what I wrote down going into the discussion to see what I wanted to talk about or questions I had or that kind of stuff.
You only understood 1% of it.
So wouldn't your notes be mostly wrong?
Maybe.
No, no, I mean, you went back and read them.
Yeah.
I mean, they might be wrong.
I don't know, like...
Yeah.
I mean, of what value is it to go back and read stuff that you got significantly wrong?
I mean, if you're going to read the books, right, and you're going to reread them, then you're going to get more out of it the second time, right?
Okay, good.
So you get more out of it the second time, you get a greater accuracy, in which case your prior notes were wrong, or at least incomplete.
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
So, of what value was incomplete and wrong notes?
Not very much, I guess.
So help me understand why this book thing is like, oh my god, the books!
I don't care about the chickens, but the books!
Yeah.
I mean, from a practical standpoint, that's why I was a little surprised when...
But largely erroneous notes that you read on a first time through a difficult text.
Because you can go get the book on Plato again.
It won't be clogged up with all of your bad takes from the past, if I understand this correctly.
Sure, yes, you're right.
See here?
It's like your daughter's like, see here, daughter?
I got this wrong.
Hang on.
Wait, wait.
On the next page, I made five notes, four of them totally wrong, one of them kind of wrong, but not totally.
Well, maybe the grammar's all right.
But here, no notes at all.
Next page, one thing that's wrong.
And here on this page, page 143, I got something that I think is right.
Yeah, well, when you put it that way...
You should burn those voluntarily!
Get rid of the evidence.
Get rid of the evidence.
I might have done you a favor as far as that goes.
Well, like I said, you know, if this is God teaching me to be less attached to material things, then...
So, but tell me what, I'm still trying to understand your relationship to the notes.
If you got most of it wrong, or at least incomplete.
Is it that you liked having the evidence that you'd read the books?
Like, if somebody came to your bookshelf, flipped open Plato's Republic, and saw all these notes, they'd be like, ah, he did read it.
Whereas if it's empty, like, ah, he didn't read this.
I think it's more of a...
To me, marking up a book is like...
I don't think you...
It's almost like evidence of ownership kind of thing.
I don't think you necessarily really own a book.
You can buy a book, but as far as ownership over the material goes, I don't think you really own it until you've read it.
And the notes are like evidence of that or a record of, um, Does that make any sense?
No, I get where you're coming from, and I'm trying to follow why ownership of something you own is important.
Oh, you didn't steal the books, right?
No.
Okay.
because stealing philosophy books, well, unless you're a communist, that's fine.
But They're already in your house.
Why do you need to, in a sense, pee on the books to establish your ownership, coyote style or something?
I'm trying to sort of follow that.
Well, I guess I've never really thought about that before.
I'm not really sure.
Well, let's ask, what is the purpose of the book?
Why do you have it?
Why do you read it?
What's the purpose?
To understand the world?
To understand philosophy?
Well, for each individual book, It's to absorb and understand the arguments within it.
Yes.
Now...
So, okay, that's a good point.
I guess part of the, Part of...
I guess this has more to do with the process of making the notes than with having the notes.
It's like...
When I'm working through a book and I'm trying to understand the arguments in it, I make notes and that forces me to...
But I guess in that case, it's more about the process of making the notes, helping you to understand the arguments.
And then for that purpose, you could just throw the notes away afterwards and you would still get some value out of it.
The book has passed from words on a page, vision in your eyes, Thoughts in your mind, notes in your hand, and the whole process of that machinery is to produce an understanding within your mind that remains in your mind.
The books have been transferred to your mind through the age of the notes, and so if the books are gone, the understanding still remains.
And the purpose of the books is to transfer The knowledge of the arguments to your mind.
And the purpose of the notes is to help that.
But that's been done.
Now, if you need to go back and revisit it, then you want a fresh page is almost better.
Because otherwise, you're not distracted by the wrong stuff I thought before.
Well, yeah.
Or even if it's not wrong, it's maybe just a particular perspective you had in the past.
You want to start with a clean text.
So that you're not as distracted by prior thoughts, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah, that makes sense.
So, the purpose of the text is to get the arguments and the wisdom into your mind, which has been achieved.
If you go and revisit, you're probably better off with a fresh text.
Yeah.
Now, I think maybe there's sentimentality about the beauty and power of that journey of reading those hundred books for which the notes is evidence.
Yes.
Like I ordered from my wife a little plaque that has the date and the place on a little GPS map, the date and the place of our first date.
And that's just a, you know, it's by her bed and a bedside and we look at it and remember that first date.
It's just, it's a nice little marker of a wonderful day.
So I think that for you, and I'm obviously guessing, right?
But I think that for you, it's like I had this amazing journey.
This was the evidence.
Yeah, you're right.
And I completely understand that, for sure.
But the journey is still there.
The journey continues.
And one of the great dangers in philosophy is to look to the past, not to the future.
Because the purpose of philosophy is not the past, any more than, I mean, you run a history podcast, so the purpose of history is not the past, because it can't be changed.
The purpose of history is the future.
To make better decisions in the future.
And so I understand the nostalgia and the journey.
And the purpose of the journey is to have the transfer of wisdom and knowledge into your mind so you can make better decisions in the future.
That's been accomplished.
And that's not to say, of course, never revisit those texts.
Of course not, right?
But what I'm saying is that...
Thank you.
They only have power in how they help you make better decisions in the future, so you're kind of keeping empty batteries, if that makes sense.
They've already discharged their power into your mind.
Yeah.
What was your age for the 100 books, give or take?
Like your 20s?
You mean, when did I start reading them?
Yeah, sort of what age from and to were these 100 books?
Oh, let's say 25 to now, roughly.
Okay, and how have your friends and family and community Well, I'll start with the community.
We're actually kind of new to this community in the last couple of years, so they have not been with me for the whole time, only recently.
I mean, the friends I have now are always...
My family has not been so interested.
My brother is the most interested, I would say.
My parents are not really into philosophy at all.
And they're not that interested in...
Okay, hang on.
You're a father, right?
Yes.
So, are you interested in everything your daughter is interested in?
Um, no.
Okay.
So, why do you do it?
Because I love her.
Right.
So, saying that your parents aren't into philosophy answers nothing.
My daughter was really into catching frogs for years.
Do I care about catching frogs?
Spoiler!
I do not.
Did we spend countless hours roaming around catching frogs?
Yes, we did.
Because I care about her.
And, you know, we did have some fun with it, and we had great chats while we were doing it, but it's not the topics that matter.
It's the child that matters.
Your parents should be into philosophy because if they're caring for you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah, you're right.
Yeah, you're right.
My daughter will very happily tell me the background stories of video games neither she or I will ever play.
Lore.
It's called lore.
And it's like, okay, yeah, if she's interested, I'm interested.
Because I care about her.
So what's going on with your parents?
Thanks.
Thank you.
Well, I'm not sure exactly.
The relationship's kind of shallow, if I'm being honest.
I mean, it's not like you're into something.
You're not into, like, topless anime.
It's not like some shameful.
Right.
So, what do you think's going on?
Or not going on?
Well, I'm not really sure.
uh Thank you.
Like I said, the relationship's kind of shallow.
They come over and they help us out.
They're helping us out with getting back on our feet after the fire.
But it's always been kind of like that.
We don't talk about any deep topics.
They don't show any interest in things I'm interested in.
Not that they, they never have, but it's like, Thank you.
Other things they won't.
But what about the history stuff?
Oh, you mean the podcast?
Well, not just the podcast, but all of your interest in history as a whole.
They're not particularly interested in philosophy, but what about history?
Oh, not particularly interested in that either.
Do they give you feedback on your podcast?
Yeah, well, I've gotten them to listen to it, and I ask them what they think about it, and they'll say, oh, yeah, it was interesting, but it's all kind of surface-level.
Sorry, what do you mean when you say you've got them to listen to it?
Well, I asked them to listen to it.
Did they know?
They knew you did a podcast, right?
Well, yeah, when I told them.
Okay, so when you told them I'm doing a podcast, what did they say?
Yeah, they said, well, that's interesting.
I'll have to listen to that.
So I send them the link and...
And it's all kind of surface-level stuff, like, oh, it was interesting, I didn't know this, this, and this, and that's pretty much as far as it goes.
So they don't ask you what you love about history, what your purpose is with the podcast, what kind of feedback you're getting.
What are you working on next?
Or what are you interested in next?
Is there anything?
Very little.
Um...
Thank you.
I mean, is the topic itself that I'm talking about is like, it's pretty obvious why I'm doing it because it's, So it's like that question is pretty obvious why I'm doing it.
No, it's not.
You could be doing anything.
Yeah, you're right.
There has to be a reason why you're doing it.
Yeah.
And when did you start it?
I'd have to look back at the date that I first published.
So it probably had something to do with becoming a father and wanting a better world for your daughter.
Yeah, I think that's right.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I mean, that was certainly my motive.
I mean, I'm not saying we're the same, but I think fathers are fathers and we want a better world for our kids.
And usually that involves taking on topics that can make the world a better place.
So, it's not obvious why you'd be doing it.
And, I mean, I hate to ask this question so bluntly, but your parents are just not very smart.
Thank you.
I wonder about that myself.
I'm really not sure.
My dad is a skilled tradesman.
He's owned his own business for 30 years or something.
And so he's smart in that kind of way, for sure.
Okay.
As far as practical skills and business ability.
Yeah, but that's often a practical kind of concrete intelligence, whereas philosophy is more of an abstract, principled intelligence.
Yeah, as far as the...
I don't think he's...
Thank you.
Do your parents have hobbies that are cognitively demanding?
No, I don't think so.
My mom reads, but the kinds of books she reads are not higher-level philosophy books or anything like that, or history.
What about their social circle?
Does their social circle include cognitively skilled people in abstractions?
No, not really.
Yeah, so it may be just that they don't have any particular skill or ability in these areas, but they should try, right?
Yeah.
I mean, if my father was building a barn, I don't know much about building barns, but I'd go and help if, you know, we had a good relationship.
I mean, I would go and do my best to help.
I mean, I would go and do my best to help.
My daughter, you know, loves particular video games, or loves, she's sort of past that now, but she loved particular video games, particularly during lockdown.
And so we would play with friends, and there were games that I was particularly interested in, but it was fun to play together.
I mean, you just step over to where the other person is, especially your child, and you meet them where they are.
And you try.
Yeah, that's how I feel sometimes when I ask...
Like, she listened to it, and she heard about a couple of events that she didn't know about before, and she'll say, oh, that was interesting.
But then if I say, oh, what was interesting about it, that's kind of where it ends.
Like, she'll say, Oh, I don't know.
It was just interesting.
And that's kind of it.
It's kind of superficial.
And have they asked you anything about sort of research methods or how you choose a topic or how difficult it is to put together?
Or, I mean, have they inquired as to its popularity or ranking or listeners?
A little bit about the popularity.
The other stuff, no.
When you were younger, I mean, every kid has interests that their parents don't directly share.
That's inevitable.
You kind of want that, right, as being individual.
Did your parents sort of step across what seems like a bit of a canyon of indifference to sort of meet you where you were interested in things and what you were concerned about?
I haven't thought about that in a long time.
It's kind of the old, if your kids are playing on the floor, you sit down and you play on the floor, right?
If your kids like a particular story, you just read it over and over until they're done with it.
Or, you know, if they like a particular game, then you'll do that and, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
So I guess that's my sort of question is, did they, if you were playing on the floor, did they get on the floor?
Did they get into your, if you're making a Lego town, did they help you make the Lego town and talk about who would live there and, you know, that kind of creative play?
Yeah, I remember some of that stuff mostly from earlier childhood.
I do remember my mom reading a lot of books to me and my brother when we were little.
They had books that you liked, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, okay.
I remember we had this little toy car, one of those cozy kook things.
I don't know if you know it.
Does that ring a bell?
It does not.
Yeah, it's this little plastic toy car that's toddler size.
Oh, like you sit in it?
Yeah.
And you sort of kick it forward Flintstone style?
Yeah.
Okay, yeah.
Yeah, I remember my dad taking us for rides in that, like he would wrap his belt around the steering wheel and pull us.
Right.
Stuff like that.
And that's nice.
Yeah, that's the words I was kind of focused on coming up with examples of, and I don't think I really have anything, like the imaginative, creative play.
I can't really think of any examples of them.
Right, okay.
And in terms of things that you were interested in that wasn't obviously their first choice, did they try?
Did they try and meet you where you were?
I remember getting into chess for a good while.
My dad would play chess with me quite a bit.
I got into reading chess books and learning tactics and strategy and all that.
So, that's good that he played chess with you, right?
It's very structured and not particularly imaginative, but it's something, right?
Okay, and anything else?
I remember a lot of board games.
We played a lot of board games.
Like, you know...
Right.
We would have family game nights and that kind of thing.
Right.
Okay.
And that's fine.
Again, it's not particularly imaginative and it's not particularly on things that you're interested in.
Thank you.
So that just could be a bit of a pattern, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, if I really focus on trying to come up with examples of imaginative or creative stuff that I was interested in, I can't think of any examples of them.
Well, and sorry to interrupt, but even if it's not, they don't have to have some gift for creative or imaginative play.
But if you're into chess and you're reading books on chess, then… Yeah.
You know, when my daughter gets into a particular book series, I'll at least try and read a couple of them so that I can talk about the characters and the story and the style and all that.
Yeah, my dad never read any books on chess.
Okay.
Okay.
Right.
Okay, so I think that the lack of parental...
I'm not sure exactly what, but I feel that I could be wrong, obviously, but I feel that the two are connected.
That's an interesting connection.
That's a surprising direction for this conversation to go into me, but it's interesting.
I guess that's why I called, right?
Because there was going to be something surprising.
Well, generally, when I'm surprised, There's something surprising.
Because I've been through these calls thousands of times, right?
And I was like, if you'd have given me top 20 things you lost in the fire, books with notes would not be up there.
And that's just surprising for me, but that usually means that there's some...
Yeah.
Like if some guy misplaces a thumb drive and he's really upset, we assume that there was something really valuable on the thumb drive that he's not told us yet.
Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, the question is, where does the attachment come from?
Well, it's a journey you went on that has, in a sense, caused you and your parents to Not necessarily in opposition, but definitely in divergence.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's true.
And as you get deeper and deeper, there's a fairly powerful phrase from Gertrude Stein, who...
She said, little by little, we never met again.
And as you get deeper into things and you start thinking more richly about life and so on, it's kind of like being a scuba diver and then you have to keep going back to the surface.
You just kind of get the bends and it's...
The mindset of dealing with the people who are only surface and shallow, and then the people who are richer and deeper.
And you have to have this duality, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, I've definitely experienced I never put it that way, but I've definitely experienced that.
I have to consciously...
I just go up to NPC mode in certain situations.
Depth?
What depth?
No, I used to think that it was kind of like, I used to be like, when I was in my 20s especially, I used to think that it was kind of, But I've kind of come around on it and I'm like, well, this is kind of the social ritual that people do.
And I've gotten better at it, I think.
And I'm okay with...
Well, and we all have to operate on that level at times.
The question is, what about the relationships where that's the only level?
Yeah.
So the loss of the books, the loss of the books, and the loss of the journey, I think I just said 27 to 31 or something like that.
Yeah, 25. Sorry, 25. So, yeah, a little more than half a decade.
That's the notes.
The notes.
If you'd lost the books without the notes, it wouldn't be as important because you could just get the books back, right?
Okay.
And you'd get them back for free because of the insurance.
So, again, not fun, but it's the notes.
The notes.
Because this is the worst thing that happened to you, was the fire.
And the worst part, Of the worst thing that happened to you was the notes in the margins.
And I don't mean that to sound skeptical.
That's the sort of hierarchy that I'm looking at.
Which means it must represent something deep and powerful.
these notes.
It could have, Just one brother.
Just one brother.
You said he's a little more interested in things, right?
Yeah, he's read...
We talk about these things.
Yeah, we talk about these things much more than I do with my parents.
And he gives you feedback on the podcast, is that right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And how's your wife in the murky quicksander philosophy?
Um, well, she's not as interested in it as I am, but she, uh, She asks me what I'm reading about and asks me questions about it.
She does all that.
She's more interested in me than in the books.
Much like your wife does, I would imagine.
Does she listen to the podcast and give you feedback?
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
And what about friends, the church, the community?
She gets to hear me recording the podcast.
Oh, right.
Okay.
I'm sorry.
I figured with six bedrooms or whatever.
Okay.
So what about congregation, church, community, friends, and maybe people you work with?
How are they with your journey?
Well, I have a few friends at church who are...
So it's kind of the same thing.
I don't think they're as into this stuff as I am, but they are always, if I bring it up, or sometimes they'll bring it up to me, or they'll ask questions to me about what I'm doing, and they're interested to hear about it.
What got you started at 25 on this?
It was a podcast I heard.
I don't want to say too much identifying information, but there was an online group that was kind of built around this.
It's not around anymore.
But I was a member of that for a while.
I heard the guy that was in charge, like the owner of the business, went on somebody else's podcast and was talking about it and talking about all these great books from the Western world, starting with the Iliad and how it's a good thing to read them and you should learn where we came from.
So that got me started on this path.
And I was a member of that for...
Thank you.
Why did it shut down?
The guy in charge shut it down.
I'm not really sure what his reasons were.
Oh, was the community a problem, or did he just move on, or why not just leave it running?
I think he just moved on.
He didn't really give an explanation.
It's not very philosophical, is it?
I think it had something to do with...
because part of the deal was the, like you pay the, you pay a membership fee and they send you books every month.
Um, and I think part of the, part of it was the difficulty of, or maybe most of it, was the difficulty of getting books shipped.
They were getting more expensive, and it became...
Thank you.
And it was a business.
I think that was a lot of it.
And how far do you think philosophy has moved you from your life in your early 20s?
Oh, almost immeasurably.
Well, I'm married and have a daughter because of it.
I am a Christian now because of it.
I was raised Christian, but I left the faith in my early 20s, and then I converted again after getting into this stuff and learning about philosophy.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
So, the notes were like footprints on the biggest journey you've had.
The journey that has given you the life that you have.
The journey that you have.
Okay.
Yeah, they're like footprints in the snow and you could trace the journey, right?
The biggest journey you have, which has given you the joys and, to some degree, the distance that you have from people in your life.
Some people.
Okay.
you.
Thank you.
Okay.
Do you know the origin of the fire?
I don't.
I just know it was a wildfire that started somewhere, you know, some distance away from us, and it was high winds and, like, pretty fire-prone situation.
Oh, I know.
I mean, once it started, I get that.
But, I mean, I've just read that a lot of these are arson or environmental wackos.
Yeah, I don't know anything about how it got started.
I know I've heard roughly where it got started in relation to us, but I have no idea how Thank you.
Right.
Okay, so the journey...
It sounds like I feel like I'm about to give you some sort of fortune cookie.
The journey is within, my friend, right?
But, but, I mean, It's not in the margins of the books.
And the margins in the books, while being a great record of your journey, which I understand it more now, I think, which is that this was...
So it was a marking of a journey.
Now, most times, though, we mark a journey because we intend to return.
There's no undo in philosophy.
You know, that old saying that a mind once stretched by a new idea never regains its original shape.
So, while the journey is interesting, one of the reasons we drop breadcrumbs in the forest is to find a way back.
I remember when I was in Africa, I went hiking in the jungle and I put all these arrows on the ground with little stones and twigs so I could find my way back.
So, one of the reasons, right, I always feel philosophy is like, You know, Sam Wise, I don't think there'll be a return journey, Mr. Frodo, right?
There is no retracing your steps.
There's no going back.
Now, again, it's not bad to go back and look at, you know, I put out an NFT some time ago, which was my manifesto.
I wrote a manifesto, both philosophical and political, in my 20s, early 20s.
And going back to read that was very interesting.
I mean, and I still believe a lot of it.
Maybe even most, but certainly not all.
And going back to read my early novels and so on is very interesting.
But there is no return journey.
There is no retracing your steps.
So the margins were interesting, but there's no going back.
There's certainly no going back to who you were when you made those notes.
Right.
Archaeology, not as living things.
They exist as the map to a journey.
It would be kind of like your marks in grade school.
Interesting.
I mean, interesting to go back and reread, but you'd never gone back to grade school, right?
So that's all in the past.
So there's something about letting go of that past that is very painful to you.
And maybe, I mean, were you aware of the shallowness in your relationship with your parents before you got into philosophy?
No, I wasn't.
Right.
What is it the Bible says?
He who gaineth in wisdom also gains in.
Pain?
I don't remember what the exact word is, but it's something like that.
Sorrow, right.
And when we outgrow our parents, it's painful.
When we, and there comes a time to anyone who thinks deeply, if you have shallow parents, and most of us do, at least relative to the deep thoughts that we have, when you look at your parents and you see their limitations, their challenges, Because children tend to be kind of self-absorbed.
It's not a criticism.
It's good, right?
But children tend to be kind of self-absorbed.
And your parents seem to be quite self-absorbed.
In that, if it's interesting to them, they're interested.
If it's not, they're not.
And children won't even fake it.
But, and your parents won't even fake it either.
Thank you.
They're just not interested.
And they don't just, I don't know, some book you mentioned, they could go and get an AI summary and at least have some conversation about it, but they don't even do that, right?
So that, those...
And with each one of those markings in the books, you outgrew your parents to the point now where I think you manage them a little bit like children.
Like you don't have too high an expectation, you recognize their limitations, you don't demand too much, you don't try to raise them to your level of conversation or intellect or depth or curiosity or compassion or empathy.
You just view them as, oh, they're kind of limited and, you know, they're helpful here and there and they're nice and pleasant to be around and we can have nice chats about things, but it is like 1% of the material in depth that you're working with.
Yeah, that's...
Right.
And it could be that they are just limited.
You know, if you've got a son who's 5 '1", you don't prep him for the NBA, right?
So it could just be that they're limited.
But it's a sad thing, because of course when we're children...
They can do everything.
They know everything, right?
And especially if your father is physically skilled, which of course is a tradesman he would be.
He's like, can fix anything, can do everything, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
And then when we grow in depth and wisdom, if our parents are practical and shallow and material, then we outgrow them in very deep ways and almost in infinite ways.
Because it's not like, They can't do 10% of what you do, or 20%, or maybe even 2%, right?
So it's like much, much, much bigger, and it's almost infinitely, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Actually, I just remembered this.
Back near the beginning of getting into philosophy and this kind of stuff, I read, well, one of the first books I read was The Odyssey, which was a father-son story.
After I finished it, I got a copy from my dad and gave it to him.
This was before I came to these realizations about my parents.
But I got a copy from my dad and gave it to him, hoping that he would read it and we could talk about it, and he never did.
Right.
Right.
And he also didn't circle back to you and say, I'm sorry, I'll get to it, or I've tried and it doesn't work for me.
Is there any summary, or is there an audiobook?
He didn't sort of say, I'm having difficulty with it, or I can't get it done.
Is there another way I can do it?
No, he didn't say that either.
It just fell into the void, right?
Now, of course, you know that's not how he runs his business, so he's perfectly capable of providing feedback on things he can't do.
Or isn't going to do, right?
So, he treats his customers in a way almost better than he treats you.
If somebody asks him to do something, he doesn't just pretend it never happened, right?
You can't run a business that way, right?
So, it would be interesting to have a conversation with your parents and say, I feel like the stuff that I'm really interested in, you don't really care for or try to take a move towards.
Yeah.
And maybe there's a block or maybe there's something that they could connect with that would open that up.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, I don't know whether you should or shouldn't have that conversation, but I think it would be good to have it as a conscious decision whether you decide to or not to.
Because if you decide not to, it would be probably based on the fact that they're just limited.
They're just really limited.
And with regards to depth, they just don't have it.
They're like someone whose ears just simply won't pop.
Like, you can't take them down scuba diving.
I just just get injured and so Yeah.
But then there's less shaping, because then you're not disappointed.
Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, I feel that for sure, and I have been having thoughts about that, like that grieving that they're not, you know, just aren't going to do that for whatever reason.
I have been grieving that the last few years.
Yeah.
I mean, I find it really important.
To not be disappointed in relationships.
And usually I'm disappointed because I have unrealistic expectations.
You know, there's things that I've wanted my daughter to get into or to enjoy or whatever, and she just hasn't.
Now, the problem with that is not her.
the problem missed my expectations that she should.
Thank you.
Thank you.
So I think accepting the truth about people is really important to avoid chafing and expectations in relationships.
And that's true for other people to you too.
I mean, you have your strengths and weaknesses just as I do.
And it's important that people, like if my wife was like, I really need you to become a mathematician, I'd be like, I gotta tell you, much though I love you, much though I want to please you, I don't think that's going to happen very well.
Right, because it's my limitation, right?
I'm okay at math, but it doesn't come as naturally to me as a lot of other things.
Or if my wife were to say, you know, I've got a friend who's super handy at stuff, like just, he looks at something and disassembles it and reassembles it in his own brain.
It's kind of a freaky thing to me because it's like magic.
But if my wife were to say, I need you to become as handy as this guy, right?
I'd be like, nah, it's not.
Not a thing.
I mean, I worked in a hardware store.
I know a few things here and there, but it's not particularly interesting to me, and it's not a skill that I have.
And it's also not a skill I want to develop.
The good thing about getting older is you realize how hard it is to become good at stuff.
Yeah.
And you're just like, no.
Like, you know, for me, it was like, oh, I could learn another language.
Like, I know how long that's going to take.
Like, I did violin for 10 years, which kind of inoculated me against learning any other instruments, because it's like, I know how long it takes to get even decent at something, so I just don't.
I have a funny thing too, like with video games, I haven't played a new video game in years because they're either too simple to be interesting or, you know, it's like...
It's like, I don't have time to love this.
I don't have time to love it.
Unless it's something like Dungeons& Dragons, I kind of already know.
So, I think adjusting those expectations, have the conversation or don't, but I would say, if you don't have the conversation, it is accepting that there's no return journey.
To respecting your parents in this way.
And look, I'm not saying that cognitive limitations are worthy of disrespect.
Otherwise, people would look at my, you know, I don't speak any other languages in English particularly.
And therefore, you know, what they look down on me.
No, it's just a, but my concern with your parents is not their limitations, but the lack of empathy to you.
And I would.
You just try because if it's important to you, it should be important to them.
And that's sort of my major concern.
Now, if you decide not to have the conversation, it would be like, okay, so they're limited in their capacity to love me in this kind of way.
I mean, they'll show affection in other ways and come help you when your house burns down and stuff like that.
And that's nothing to sneeze at, for sure.
But in terms of, like, it's important to you, therefore it's important to them.
If that's not going to happen, you know, just going to have to grieve that lack of love.
Because that is a love thing.
That is a love thing that, you know, and if somebody were to say to the average person, Should you at least try to be interested or get to know things that people you care about are really passionate about?
Be like, well, yeah, of course.
And so it's not some esoteric thing that people don't know.
That's a pretty obvious thing.
And so if they won't do it or can't do it, then it's a limitation on the size of their hearts.
It's a limitation on their affection.
And that's something to grieve, but it's also, I think, in order to avoid being disappointed and chafing with regards to expectations, it's probably something worth accepting.
Yeah.
Maybe that's what God wants you to learn from the fire.
The only person who didn't get disappointed by his father is Jesus himself.
Yeah.
That's extra.
So we'll negotiate that offline.
All right.
Well, listen, man, keep me posted.
You do have my big sympathies.
Of course, I'm not saying, oh, just do a dance of joy for your house getting burnt down.
But man, it could have been a whole lot worse.
And you will get great lessons out of this.
And in my own personal life, I've had things which I think are really bad that turn out to be really great.
Yeah.
I'm happier post-deplatforming than pre-deplatforming.
Anyway, go on.
Yeah.
I will say, so before the fire, my wife and I were trying to have a second baby.
And so a couple of days ago, I asked her, do you still want to keep trying for another baby?
And she said, yeah, do you not?
Why would you ask that?
And I was like, yeah, okay.
I married the right woman.
My God, man, don't let the smoke damage hit your testicles.
Keep those folks.
Yeah, for sure.
All right, well, listen, keep me posted, and I really do appreciate the call today, and I wish you the very best with the rebuild.
Thank you.
I really appreciate it.
Thanks, brother.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
Thanks.
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