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June 8, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:10:14
Why Am I Single? PRIVATE CALL IN SHOW
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Time Text
All right, everybody.
This is Stefan Molyneux from Freedom Main.
Of course, this is a man who has very kindly taken a private call and made it a public call, which is interesting.
It's a little bit of window into how I work in private calls.
And he didn't read his message to begin with, because of course it was a private call.
After he agreed to make it public, he also agreed that I could read the message he sent me originally.
So this is what he said.
He said, topic.
I keep playing musical chairs.
Topic detail.
After a lot of journaling, therapy, and other self-knowledge and growth work, I've made a lot of progress getting out of the depths of depression and drug use in my late teens and early twenties.
I have a lot more ability to be social and productive now, but I still find myself running through these two related loops with friends slash dating and work.
With work, I like to either make enough money to invest and homeschool without needing to work much to support my future family, Or work my way into a position where I can earn a good living without needing to work in consistent 9-5 or 12-hour startup days.
I have a couple of ideas on how to do that, but they're longer range and the path is unclear, which calls for working out more clear intermediate steps and working towards those.
Something I've done before, but I've found that almost anything I plan on more than a two-week timeline, I'll start to disengage when the initial momentum starts dying.
Thankfully, I found a way to But I continually have a sense that I'm just about topped out there.
That if I don't figure out how to stay engaged with a longer-term project, I'll not be able to get a big win financially or increase my income while also having the kind of work-life balance I want for me and my family.
With both friendships and dating, I found myself challenged to be interested in people consistently.
Both to go out and start conversations with people that might become friends or romantic partners, as well as staying interested enough to follow up.
If I do that, like someone and exchange contact information with them.
Some ideas slash info that I think are relevant to both.
I've noticed I tend towards sarcasm and cynicism as a way to protect myself from the risks of caring about someone or something, and that not being reciprocated or failing to lead to success.
Conversely, I can look for the positive framing for a situation and find things to be grateful for, but they don't come naturally.
I have to work at remembering to do things that way, to do think that way.
To the musical chair's metaphor, I found people and projects to be interesting in and have worked at them for various lengths of time, but when they start to get difficult, doubt creeps in.
I lose track of the why that makes working through that difficulty worth it and tend to slide back into what's easy slash familiar.
Thus, for the next person or project, Thus far, an ex-person slash project has tended to come along, but I feel the frequency of that slowing down in the last couple years.
I take longer to find a new idea to work on or to get back out there and try to make new friends slash find new dates.
The last three discrete behavior patterns that I engage in that feel disintegrated slash go against my conscience are binge eating, watching TV, and masturbating.
I've gotten a lot better in all those.
Some less discrete patterns that I think are related to, slash, affect my ability to deeply connect with myself, others, and my work are hesitation, comfort seeking, avoidance of hard work, reactive avoidance of the pain of rejection, and failure.
Having done so much work on these fronts, I'd like to believe there's more insight to gain that can unlock a next level for me.
Not that one idea or moment will fix me but that learning something new slash seeing something old in a new way will get me unstuck enough that I'll more consistently do the right thing or have just enough connection to a better version of myself that in the moments where I'm challenged to choose the easy or the good I'll start choosing the good more even when it's tough because it'll just be easier or I'll better tolerate the difficulty without reacting to escape it.
I'm also considering the idea That there might not be an insight that does this.
That the answer is simply, I have to choose better in the moments and ways.
I know I'm making worse choices.
And if I choose better enough, I'll find my way forward.
I've tried more mechanical approaches to making daily slash weekly habits to directly address some of the above, e.g.
go out dancing slash to social events five times a week, tracking what I eat and sticking to a specific diet.
This approach has definitely helped in a lot of ways, but generally after weeks or a couple of months at best.
I'll either start to loosen up, slash be less disciplined about them, and slide back into old habits.
Or I will have a sort of blow-up, e.g.
slowly start to eat more junk food here and there, one week to stop going out to be social and stop watching TV again instead.
Lastly, in conversations like the one we might have, I can tend to be abstract or obtuse.
I'll work to directly answer questions, but please point out when I'm not.
A number of years as a listener, 15 years or more.
He's listened to call-ins before, of course.
And so this is a private call.
And let's get started.
I've read your message.
We don't have to go through it if it's going to be...
So you don't have to read it.
I mean, unless you want to.
Or we can just dive straight in.
Yeah, I think let's just dive straight in.
The TLDR on my side has been going in loops with relationships, both like friendships and dating.
And work-wise, where I feel like I'll get into things and I'll chase them down for a bit and then kind of lose steam and give up.
And not in a like, you try things and some things work and don't, but in that kind of musical chairs kind of way, like I mentioned in my message.
Yep.
And part of me wonders whether it's just a...
Discipline is a factor in life, and I just need more discipline, or choice is sort of an essential element of life, and it's just, hey, at some point you just have to decide, and there's not insider information or anything to do with that.
And part of me wonders if maybe I need more practice looking at what am I aiming for, what's the positive vision I'm aiming for, Right, right.
I mean, the one thing that I got from your message and so on is I'm trying to sort of figure out the larger perspective on your life.
So can you just give me, you'd have to roughly, you're in your late 20s, early 30s, or something like that.
What's your rough age?
I'm in my early 30s.
Early 30s, okay.
Where are you relative to your major life goals?
I mean, do you want to get married and have kids?
I want to get married and have kids.
And career-wise, it's a little bit more amorphous.
I'm kind of okay with that.
But yeah, I'm not sure if there's a clear distance to an end point on that side thing.
Okay, so if you want to get married and have kids, where are you relative to that goal?
I don't know, 10 yards off the starting line.
Relative to what?
Relative to, I don't know, 100 meter dash.
But I don't know that I'm sprinting.
Okay, so have you dated much?
I have dated not anything that, some longer term, but not in a like, this is my girlfriend's official kind of.
We're in a monogamous relationship.
I've had relationships of like six months with a couple of people.
Okay, so just if you can give me a bit of a history on your dating life.
Make a start from sort of teens, teens onwards.
Yeah, I went to a Catholic school in a farm town, so pretty small.
There were like 14 kids in my eighth grade class.
So people in my school did do dating.
My class was pretty small, so there wasn't a ton of potential to kind of do that early on, and it was a lot more like we're all kind of friends since kindergarten sort of vibe.
The last couple of months of eighth grade, I had a girlfriend for the first time in high school.
I asked a girl out freshman year to go to the dance with me, and then I asked her to be my girlfriend during the dance.
But almost right away, I didn't feel interested in that.
So I don't know.
That was maybe a month-long sort of ordeal.
Sorry, but what do you mean?
So you were doing the dance thing, and you just stopped being interested in what?
Yeah, so I asked a woman, asked a girl freshman year of high school to the homecoming dance.
And we went together to that.
At the dance, I asked her to be my girlfriend.
She said yes.
But then the next day, the next week, I felt disinterested in that.
And so the being my girlfriend probably lasted for a couple weeks or a month.
Okay.
And what do you think happened with that level of interest?
What do you think happened to make it less interesting?
The on the face of it thing that I think even in the high school years I thought this was I was just kind of horny at the dance and then afterwards I wasn't so horny and that motivation wasn't there.
I think there's more to it than that but that was kind of the surface level.
So you were sexually attracted and then you weren't?
Yeah.
Okay, got it, got it.
And was there anything about the women's or the girls, I guess, personality, or that was negative for you?
I don't know.
No, there wasn't.
She was maybe, I didn't think this at the time, in retrospect, she was maybe nice in the negative way, not like a kind person, yes, but maybe too nice.
But I don't remember thinking at the time that that was something I didn't like about her.
Okay, got it, got it.
All right, and then what happened after that?
After that, I was interested in other girls in high school, but didn't ask anybody out.
Towards the last few months of...
I don't know.
I started seeing someone, I guess.
I'd never like, will you be my girlfriend, do that sort of thing.
But we started hanging out and kissed a few times and did some one-on-one stuff.
Okay, and what happened from there?
At the end of high school, we both stayed in the town that we went to school in.
I don't remember there being a specific moment.
I think it fizzled out.
Okay.
And was it similar to the last girl that you were dating?
Like you just fell out of lust?
I think that one wasn't so lust-driven.
That was part of it, and that was part of the interest, but it wasn't like.
There was a moment where I was lusting after this woman and then really pursued her and then that died off.
But I think it was similar in that whatever initial interest there was faded fairly quickly.
And I didn't put an effort in to rekindle that or further pursue or try to explore that more deeply.
Okay.
Or slide it with her.
Okay.
And then?
And then after school, I decided not to go to college.
I'd gotten into smoking weed and drinking in high school, so there was a few months of that and some related personal and family chaos.
Started working at restaurants.
And yeah, I think I had some women that I was interested in to varying degrees, but never, I don't even...
So were you a virgin until you were 25 or later?
Yeah.
Yep.
Okay, so how did you, I mean, you've got, I don't know, like a lot of years of sort of I mean, was it just masturbation or how did you deal with all of that?
Yeah, just born in masturbation.
Okay.
Did it ever trouble you and you thought maybe this is not the way to launch myself into the dating market?
Yeah, I think slightly tangential but related.
When I first started smoking weed, it was like Maybe a couple months of the classic stoner excuses, it's not as bad for you, maybe it's healthy for you kind of stuff.
But pretty quickly I realized that.
Pretty quickly realized, within a few months, okay, I'm smoking every day.
There's something not okay here.
And I had started listening to you, I think, around that time and started getting into psychology.
So I recognized this is a symptom of something that I need to deal with that I'm avoiding.
Similarly, with porn and masturbation and dating, I recognized pretty soon, let's say, after high school.
I knew it wasn't where I wanted to be, and it was a thing to be addressed, but I didn't really dig hard into it or try to solve it.
I was just wondering, because you had this lust for these girls.
And then it kind of fades away.
And I assume that you rub them out until it fades away, so to speak, right?
Yeah.
So the woman would stimulate sexual desire, you would satisfy yourself, and then be less interested in the woman.
I don't mean to be overly blunt, but is that sort of the sequence?
Yeah, I don't think I...
I think I did do that around particular women.
But there was also a lot of...
Thank you.
Also, again, personally, just not in a kind of shape where I'm really that creative a person to date.
And then obviously, watching porn just makes it easier to kind of stay in that.
No progress, suck zone, I don't like this, but I'm not particularly motivated to solve it with any sense of immediacy.
Right, okay.
I guess the other question that I would have is, What was the value for you in women?
Because if it's just sexual and you can masturbate, then I suppose you don't need the women as much.
But is it sort of the case that you couldn't think of why women would be valuable outside of sex?
I think I was 19 when I...
So that's been important to me, at least from a what's the list look like perspective for a while.
I think, too, when I...
I started listening to you and getting into psychology midway through high school.
I recognized after high school that my dad's very cerebral, I'm very cerebral, but there's also physicality and health are important.
I started doing yoga to express that.
I don't remember at what point I would have started to recognize So I don't know when that sort of side of things has started to be more consciously aware of.
But I think there are at least the roots of that, even in those kind of late teens, early 20s, kind of like some general awareness.
I didn't think explicitly like women are only good for sex, but I didn't necessarily have a clear, both like conscious thought and emotional sort of draw to like, it's really valuable to be in a relationship with somebody who's a good person that you love and who loves you.
Okay, so tell me a little bit about your parents' relationship.
If I remember the timelines correctly, I think my dad was 19 and my mom was 27 or 28 when they met.
And they got married.
I think maybe five or so years after that, and then I was born eight or ten years after they met.
Maybe not that long.
My mom was like 35 when I was born, or 38 when I was born.
So yeah, maybe that time.
They're still together.
the whole time I was growing up.
Dad is...
He's very...
He's very cerebral and intellectual.
If you have a conversation with him about emotions and how they work or how relationships work beyond you said you would take the trash out and you did or didn't do it kind of checkbox stuff, he understands and is aware of that stuff, but he doesn't tend to operate that way.
My mom, I think, is kind of more typically a woman in that she inherently values and you can see that through her actions, like just being around people, being connected in a social network.
Yeah.
Okay.
And how long did they be married now?
Somewhere between 30 and 40 years, I think.
Right.
And do you have siblings?
No.
Okay, and how was that sort of dealt with growing up in terms of social life and other kids and that kind of stuff?
Yeah.
I...
I grew up in residential development in the country.
So there was a block and there was an area with houses.
But then the town that we were outside of was maybe a 15-minute drive.
A lot of kids that I went to school with, a couple of them would be in town.
Some of them would be in farmhouses way out in the country.
So I had some around the neighborhood.
Friends or relationships.
Friends who were in my class, in school.
Almost all of them were a decent commute.
I couldn't bike ride or easily go there myself.
I played sports pretty much my whole life growing up.
Sometimes through the school and younger years through local towns, baseball league or those sorts of things.
I was in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts for various periods of time.
So yeah, I think largely through school there were sleepovers and outside of school activities with friends and then doing sports and I think Boy Scouts and Cub Scouts were kind of the main ways.
And how close were you with friends?
Thank you.
I think it's been a while.
Did you have sleepovers?
Did you have giggle parties?
Did you have, you know, like whatever, laugh till you get goofy?
Anything like that?
Yeah, I definitely had that.
Had sleepovers at other people's house for sure.
My parents went through periods where we had like a hoarder house.
So like pathways through boxes to get places instead of like this is a hallway with paintings on the wall like a normal house.
So there were like edge and flows to that like months and years kinds of periods.
I think we had three parties at our house for friends of mine and my parents when I was growing up.
And I think I had a neighbor who was one of my best friends a couple doors down.
And he like we'd hang out and he'd stay over sometimes because we were pretty close.
So and his house also was kind of a warder house.
So that didn't scare.
Where did the hoarding come from, mom or dad?
I think it was a joint effort.
And what do you, you don't have to tell me the details, but what occupation are your parents in?
My mom was a dental hygienist and my dad is an IT consultant.
Okay.
And when did the hoarding stuff really begin to manifest in your life?
How old were you?
I don't remember specifically my, I think.
I think what might have been the start of it getting worse was my dad started getting into a legal battle with the county.
And that definitely, I think after that, my mom...
I guess, started having seasonal affective disorder, she definitely became...
And I think that also, I think it was after that, that the hoarding type of behavior started for both of them.
And I don't remember specifically, but let's say what, third grade, fourth grade maybe is when that started.
Was it a very lengthy battle?
It was eight years in total, so I think it wrapped up shortly after, maybe a year or two after I left school.
And just roughly, what was the content?
The HOA that our housing development was under did some HOA slash county politics stuff to basically kind of Forced through everyone getting sewer systems.
And my dad was libertarian and had a rebellious streak and kind of a sharp guy and solving logical puzzles.
And he had a friend who was a lawyer, so he just started getting into, that's not right.
My septic system works fine and I don't want to pay the 15 grand or whatever to get this done and the government can't take my land kind of stuff.
Yeah, he decided to sue him and try to stop that.
Okay.
And was your mother on board with this kind of stuff?
She is a lot more of a normie, to use the modern parlance.
Yeah, like cheerleader in high school.
Still, to this day, will tell you stories about her high school time.
Was a very attractive young woman.
So, kind of just...
But yeah, she definitely, like, she would follow the rules and check the boxes, I think.
Or not for my dad not being that person.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
Do you know why they didn't have any other kids?
My mom did have a miscarriage before I was born, and I think she had a non-carcinogenic, non-cancerous ovarian cyst and had one of her ovaries removed, so that was part of it.
I think also, aside from those health factors, my impression is that she had a bit of a failure to launch, failure to grow up.
Psychology early years.
She was apparently also a bit rebellious in high school.
I found out I didn't walk during the graduation ceremony because I got in trouble for smoking weed and they didn't let me do that and I found out then senior high school that my mom also didn't go to her graduation high school ceremony.
Had some rebellious streak as a teen, went to college, and ended up moving back into the house that she grew up in.
Her parents moved down to another house in another state, so she wasn't still living with them per se, but she lived in that house, I think, until she met my dad and they got married.
And again, if I remember the timelines correctly, she was like 28 when they met.
And he was significantly younger than her.
So I think there was some hesitance from her to kind of commit to being and becoming an adult.
And so I think that kind of pushed the timeline out of wanting to have kids and obviously the biological side and her personal health side starts to kick in as well.
Okay, got it.
And would you say that you were close to your parents?
Thank you.
I think so.
There was definitely, there were at least moments of closeness for sure.
There's also, like doing an ASS score, I can check the neglect box.
And I think that's fair, but there were definitely hugs and kisses and I love yous and I'm genuinely feeling that, I think.
Mixed in with not listening to me, not trying to understand where I'm coming from, going, and kind of hiding in your various places and not playing with me and those sorts of things.
I know it's hard to sort of gauge these things, but sort of minus 10 total indifference, plus 10 sort of good engagement.
Where would your parents fall on that spectrum overall?
Four.
Plus four, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
All right.
And did it change over time?
Was it fairly consistent?
Or some parents are better when the kids are younger.
Some parents are better later on.
Was it fairly consistent over time?
or did it kind of come and go?
With my mom, I think it was fairly consistent.
Not disengaged, not super engaged.
There was, again, that drop-off where kind of around the time that that court case thing started, she started being more reclusive in general.
Yeah, I think it was probably fairly consistent with both of them.
Maybe kind of more engaged when I was younger.
And I do remember getting, even in fourth or fifth grade, but into middle school, kind of feeling like my dad's still trying to play with me like I'm a little kid.
In retrospect, I think fifth grade is still okay to kind of play like you're a little kid.
Not like a four-year-old, but you can still horse around and stuff.
Yeah, starting to feel like, oh, I'm too old for dad to keep hanging around.
By high school, that wasn't as much of an issue because I went to school like 40 minutes away and kind of started to develop my own friends and stuff like that.
Okay.
Now, when you sort of hit puberty and you went through the big changes and you got interested in girls and so on, how did your parents respond or react to that process?
There...
There...
Thank you.
I don't think there was ever a specific and general conversation.
definitely not about like this is what sex is and how it works but also i think about um hey you're growing up and like Didn't have a conversation like that.
When I had that 8th grade girlfriend, she had a bit of a reputation, so to speak.
So there was some specific conversation about mom wasn't too happy about that.
And yeah.
I think that was about it.
I think there might have been other kind of conversations, but there wasn't nothing that kind of stood out as like, oh yeah, we had this talk and I remember my parents.
I learned this from them about that.
Okay.
What do you think of the fact that you were kind of left to figure things out by yourself in what is, you know, arguably the most complex area of human relations and certainly the highest stakes?
You know, if you get it wrong, things go very badly in your life as a whole.
What do you think of your parents' lack of communication about these things?
I think that's not the kind of parent that I want to be at this point.
I do feel a little bit of anger about it, like right now.
In general, I think having done enough therapy and thought about that, and I'm also like, I've been technically an adult and physically an adult for a long time now.
It's like, I think I'm mostly settled on, yeah, they should have taught me more about that.
And that's not okay, but that's who they are.
And I mean...
Sorry, go ahead.
It'd be nice if it was different, but I don't expect that they wouldn't be given history and conversations that we've had and the thinking and trying to talk to them that I've done.
So you've talked to them about these areas where they could have been deficient?
Not specifically about dating, but I've pushed.
Other important conversations about our relationship specifically and not made progress that I'd be happy with there.
I wouldn't bring this up to them now, I don't think, because I've seen how these conversations have gone in other arenas and don't expect to find anything.
Sorry, what do you mean by that?
Like, as...
as a teen, being in the kind of personal emotional situation in life where doing drugs was attractive to me and fairly quickly realizing that something's not okay here.
And listening to you early on about you don't get a pass to not be a good person just because you're I'm like, hey, I don't like where our relationship's at.
I don't like where my life's at.
Something's wrong here.
want to talk about what's going on.
In those early days, it was argumentative and dismissive and didn't really...
sit down and have a heart-to-heart conversation where there's some new understanding or at least consistently, like, let's work on this together and then have that progress get made.
And then when I eventually, like, moved out and started living on my own and had some of the pressure of being 19 and not going to college and needing to sort my my life situation out and not be, uh,
Some of the tension and chaos personally and again with our relationship, living together starts to subside.
Brought these up.
Hey, I'm not happy with where our relationship's at.
Here's what I think.
What do you think?
Had maybe gotten a little bit more Reception from them on that, but still not had a conversation where it feels like they've embraced it and made a change or even tried very hard to get deeper into that.
Okay.
Have they retired us yet?
My mom has.
My...
Thank you.
And how would you characterize your relationship at the moment?
maybe like five years ago for a few years I used the term armistice.
I don't I don't I don't talk to them that much.
We would go on holiday vacation every year since I was a baby down to the condo that used to be my grandparents and now it's my parents.
So I've still done that.
I moved away from where I grew up almost four years ago now, when I still lived in the city area that I grew up in.
I'd see them about once a month.
When I moved away for a couple of years, I'd talk to my mom maybe once a month or so.
And then last year, I made a somewhat conscious decision to not Try to make a point to call my mom every month just to see how that felt and how they responded.
So I didn't talk to them I think a couple times last year and then spent a couple weeks at the family condo.
And it's about the same this year as last year.
So it's like the communication level.
Yeah, I think the last thing that I sort of left them with from that vacation was I still not happy with I would like our relationship to be better but I feel like I've put in all the effort I care to put in to making it better on my side for now and like I'd really like to see you guys do something to
at least Try.
What would you like to see them do?
The mechanical, I just don't have another idea thing that I suggested to them is try going to therapy and seeing if that shifts something for you and you can reach out and tell me about it or maybe you'll come with some new thought or idea or emotional expression.
Yeah, I don't know.
I guess I don't know.
I still feel a little bit in between.
I think I mostly accepted they are who they are and they're probably not going to change.
I don't know that I'm emotionally like, yeah, that sucks, but it's been, whatever, 20 years, and I don't really care that much about it.
So there's maybe still a little bit of hope or maybe still some...
But I do, it was kind of genuine when I told them.
I feel like I've tried to have these kind of conversations with you guys for years.
And pretty much all the energy for that comes from me.
And then you'll say, you want things to be better, but then I give you like, here's a thing you can try to do, and then you don't do it.
So I don't know.
I don't feel like I can keep putting in effort when you guys aren't.
And why do you think they don't do what you ask them to do?
Thank you.
I think both of them, the first thought that comes to mind is that I don't think either of them have a strong sense of being, I don't know, being able to affect a close relationship for the better.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I don't.
My dad's pretty cagey about talking about his personal history, but from what I've gathered from him and a couple of his siblings, it seems like his mom is pretty terrible, like screaming, punchy, kind of frightening, loud, abusive woman and his dad.
I don't think was that level, but obviously enabled by not stopping that.
So I think he grew up in a pretty chaotic, keep your head down, stay isolated to protect yourself kind of environment.
And so I think that, and I feel like I see some of that passed on to me, is just an assumption of you can argue with people and try to outwill them, or you can just completely disconnect.
And forget about it.
Stop caring about it.
But there's not an in-between space of negotiating to build something together or fix something together.
Right, okay.
It is a certain lack of caring at its foundation.
Because if you really care about someone, like if my wife really wants me to do something or change something, then I would really work to do or change that.
I care about her.
I want her to be happy and so on.
She doesn't make unreasonable requests and it certainly doesn't sound like you're making unreasonable requests.
So, could it be?
I mean, not as simple as, but could it be just like a lack of caring?
And I don't mean like maybe they don't have the ability at this point in their life, but something like that?
I think that's fair if we just take behavior as the Most important, like highest signal sort of way to suss this out.
Yeah, it's like if you cared enough, you would try harder.
And part of the proof that you're caring is...
I mean, if you say, mom, dad, I feel like our communication is not great and I would really appreciate it if you'd go and do some therapy.
I mean, you just go and do the therapy.
That's not a try thing.
You know, if it would be like, Dad, I need you to become an expert chess grandmaster, then he would have to try to do that, if that makes sense.
But just saying to someone, can you go to therapy, because that would really help our relationship, they would just go to therapy or not.
Now, maybe there'd be different levels of trying in therapy, but it's not a trying thing.
Like, they would just go to therapy.
Now, again, maybe it would work, maybe it wouldn't.
Maybe they'd do the homework or maybe they wouldn't, but...
And I were to say, well, I can try.
Well, that would be kind of confusing, right?
Are you going to be there or not, right?
Are you going to agree to be there or not?
So, if you're asking me to do something, can you meet me at 7 for the movie?
And I said, well, I guess I could try.
That would be baffling.
It's not quite the right word, if that makes sense.
I think, and this is part of some of the maybe final sorting it out on my end, is emotionally getting clear on this point, because I think what you're saying is fair.
It's not like, can you try to get to the moon?
Well, there's a lot of rocket science involved, and I'm not sure I'm going to be able to pull that off in the next 10 or 20 years.
But I can see for them in part because I think this is part of the musical chairs kind of pattern for me where it is like an emotional battle for them.
It's not as simple as make an appointment or show up to the grocery store on Sunday at 10am.
This might actually force up some emotions that aren't comfortable or Well, no, but that's different from just going to therapy.
Right, so how you deal with what's going on in therapy is a different matter.
Agreeing to go to therapy because it's important to you is what I'm talking about.
And I think it's worth spending a minute or two on this distinction.
Like, it's easy.
Going to therapy is easy.
You make a phone call, right?
It's like going to the dentist.
It's easy.
You make a phone call and you go to therapy.
Right?
You maybe call a couple of people until you get someone you kind of gel with or vibe with or I don't know whatever the words are these days.
But going to therapy, that's easy.
Now, you know, what comes up in therapy, blah, blah, blah, that's, it's sort of like if you have a parent who is very unhealthy, right, and just unhealthy.
Okay, well, then you say to the parent, hey, I need you to, you know, get a personal trainer, go to the gym, like whatever you need to do, start exercising, because, you know, that's really unpleasant if.
If you don't, and then I got to sort of take care of you and all this, that, and the other, right?
So going to the gym, like just choosing a gym, paying for the gym, going to the gym, that's easy, if that makes sense.
Now, when you go to the gym, maybe you have a tough time working out, maybe it's bringing up some stuff for you, like whatever it is, right?
But that's a different matter, though.
These two are not the same.
And they're not even really close, if that makes sense.
If you say to your parents, I want you to go to therapy, it's easy for them to go to therapy.
Just literally pick up.
I mean, they've got time, right?
That's why I asked if they're retired, right?
So they've got time.
They can make the phone call, right?
They can go to therapy.
Because that is an action.
You're asking them for an action.
Now, asking for a goal is a different matter, right?
Dad, can you become a really excellent guitarist?
Well, that's different, right?
That's a goal.
But you're asking them for an action.
Right?
And actions are eminently achievable.
Goals?
That's a different matter.
Like if you were to say to them, I need you to become really emotionally skilled.
Well, that's a goal, right?
And that's a different thing.
But if you just say to them, I just need you to go to therapy, that is an action.
And actions are a whole different animal.
Actions are eminently achievable.
They are easy.
Does this sort of make sense?
Yeah, it's...
And you're saying to your parents, I need you to go to therapy to become very emotionally skilled, right?
Or something like that, right?
I didn't that in this latest round because I know what you're getting at and I've done this for a while.
I didn't even put that on.
I said something to paraphrase.
You don't want them to go to therapy just to waste time and money, right?
It would be to achieve some kind of goal.
I think that's the desire, but I said something to the effect of, I don't know that this is going to fix anything, but this is like, try going to therapy and let's see if something happens.
I get that.
None of that gainsays what I'm saying.
Okay.
It would be two things.
So let's say you're a big fan of Chinese opera.
I'm not.
I really dislike Chinese opera.
But let's say you're a big fan of Chinese opera.
And you would say to me, hey man, I really want you to come and try and appreciate this Chinese opera thing.
Right?
And you were to say, "Listen, I'll pay for your ticket, but it would really mean a lot to me if you came down and you tried to..." Okay, so the action is I come down and I sit in the audience with you and I watch and listen to Chinese opera.
Can I do that?
Yeah.
Yeah, that's an action, right?
I can do that.
It's as easy as falling off a log.
I can do the action no problem.
Agreed?
Yep.
Now, if you were to say, and I want you to really like Chinese opera, well, that's a whole different thing, isn't it?
Mm-hmm.
And the two are not the same.
Now, one is necessary, but not sufficient for the other.
So I'm obviously not going to really get to like or appreciate Chinese opera if I never go, right?
Like, I have to go to Chinese opera.
In order to develop, or at least listen to it, in order to have the potential to develop some kind of appreciation, right?
So, when you say to your parents, I want you to go to therapy, it is with a goal, right?
You would invite me to go and watch Chinese opera with the goal of having me like and appreciate it, right?
Yeah.
Now, I can tell you, I can go.
Right?
I can tell you, yes, I can go to Chinese opera.
I cannot tell you that as a result of going to Chinese opera, I will really learn to love it.
Because one of those is a voluntary, controllable action.
The other is not a controllable goal.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.
So the reason I'm saying this is if you say to your parents, I want you to go to therapy, they can do that tomorrow.
They can go to therapy.
Now, whether this achieves the big goals that you, I mean, I don't know, but it's necessary.
I mean, they could go to the therapy and they could spend their whole time arguing with the therapist or disagreeing or this is stupid, like whatever, right?
In the same way that I could, Go to Chinese opera, you know, stick my fingers in my ears and yell loudly how trashy it was, or whatever, right?
Some déclassé thing, right?
But it certainly is the case that I can control whether I go to opera or not, right?
And that's my issue with your parents, is that they are not willing To just go to therapy.
Which they can do very, very easily, right?
What would come out of that is hard to tell.
But we know that nothing's going to come out of it if they don't even go.
right so that's Like, that's sort of what I'm trying to get across.
So why wouldn't they go?
Look, they've had mental health issues, right?
Hoarding is bad, right?
Yeah.
I mean, hoarding, especially, that's why I asked how old, right, how old you were.
Because hoarding is particularly bad for kids, because it's scary.
And, by the way, it's also dangerous and unhygienic, right?
Mm-hmm.
And I'm sure that at some point, or you may have expressed some discontent with regards to the pigsty you were living in, right?
I mean, how bad did it get?
What sort of stuff are we talking about here?
Yeah.
I forget this actually came up recently.
It was never particularly dirty.
There wasn't just moldy food sitting in a bowl next to the couch in the living room, but it was definitely like...
And not just some old mail got left by the door for a month, but one box gets put down, some other stuff gets put on top of it.
Dining room becomes unusable.
Kitchen is functional enough, but the seating, what do they call it, the breakfast nook table is not usable.
There's a path to the couch.
Every hangout space you're amongst.
piles of things.
Thank you.
So I'm not sure what the official hoarder scale is.
So it wasn't like there was mold and it wasn't spores and bacteria and growths and all of that.
So it wasn't physically dangerous, is that right?
No, I mean, yeah, the closest is maybe like some piles of boxes.
It would have fallen over, but nothing like that happened.
it wasn't like insects are infesting things.
It was usually paper or just a bunch of Okay.
And, I mean, what percentage of the house, what percentage of the room could you see the floor?
like what percentage was covered and so on.
Maybe like, I don't know, let's say 30%, whatever.
Again, it was usable.
Some rooms got completely set off, but we had a pretty good-sized house, didn't need access to the third bedroom or whatever.
But yeah, every room had stuff piled up in it.
And in a lot of cases, again, it wasn't like, this is a hallway.
With maybe a bench to put your shoes on, here's a path through boxes in a hallway, or you're stepping over something to get to the couch.
But then there's foot space in front of the couch.
And, sorry, you said which parent was more susceptible to this mental problem?
They both contributed.
I'm not sure who maybe instigated...
That's definitely not needed.
And they both liked getting stuff on sale.
So there was definitely buying way more of things we didn't really need.
So I don't know.
It feels maybe about equal.
And how long did this reign of crap last?
It's not as bad an issue now, is that right?
Yeah, it's not.
There's definitely still some versions of that.
When I go down to this family condo, in part reactionarily, in part just choosing to be a different person.
I don't put stuff on the floor that doesn't belong on the floor.
But when I got onto that family condo, it's definitely not anywhere near as bad as paths through boxes, but there's still just like, why is there just piles of paper and these wires sitting on this desk that could just either be trashed or gotten away?
There's still little bits and pieces of that.
And do they acknowledge it as a problem as a whole?
My mom will.
She will.
Complain about my dad doing it.
He doesn't seem to care that much.
And my mom still does it on me herself.
And she'll come up with excuses for why she needs to be keeping these piles of papers in her space.
Sort of mail from years ago, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So they haven't acknowledged it as a problem other than it's a mild annoyance to...
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
Do they acknowledge that, then they haven't acknowledged any particular failures in parenting, is that right?
Okay.
I have started to in bits and pieces, but not in a meaningful way.
The general pattern is my mom will, she'll emotionally react to me bringing up some interpersonal issue and pretty quickly make it about, be sorry.
she was not feeling well and that's XYZ thing about her.
Do they track empaths Please finish your thought.
Yeah, and then on my dad's side, he will tend to either start to get argumentative or just kind of dissociate, like stop responding, stop talking in the middle of a conversation.
Right.
Okay.
Bye.
Thank you.
All right.
And have they tracked any of your goals as a whole?
Like if you want to get married and have kids and you're in your 30s and this hasn't happened and doesn't seem to be anywhere close to happening, do they track that at all?
Do they follow that it's not happening in the way that you want?
Or is anything like that going on?
Thank you.
It's not going on.
And before I give my immediate reaction, I will say this points back to your going to therapy as an action and they could just do it.
My mom has tried that to some degree and I've just not been, and I remove the word just, I have not been that receptive to it because I didn't feel like sharing that stuff.
So I think she's kind of less and less been asking about that.
So what does she ask?
How does she bring it up?
When she would more regularly do that, it would usually be about friends or dating, not so much work and career.
And she'd ask about how's this friend that she knew that I had from high school or whatever.
Or are you dating anyone?
And maybe I'd give her a little bit of information if there was any on that front.
Okay.
And nothing larger than that, so just a couple of questions that are kind of easily batted off, is that right?
Batted off or answered, like, hey, have you talked to so-and-so in a while?
Yeah, he's XYZ.
Okay, great, end of conversation.
Hey, are you dating anyone?
No.
Okay, end of conversation.
Huh.
I mean, how different is that going to be from your ideal parenting?
Thank you.
I would like to be a lot more engaged and involved And have my kids want me to be engaged and involved in their lives like that?
Okay.
All right.
I mean, I'm sure that your parents, if they were on the call, and I would say to them, you realize that being hoarders means it's almost impossible for your kid to bring A date home.
Like you were crippling your son's ability to date.
What do you think they would say about that?
Thank you.
If we presume the first thought that I had is the one that they would have, they would say, well, when I was younger, And my grade school, middle school was in the town 20 minutes away versus the city 40 minutes away.
When I was younger, I didn't seem that interested or like I wanted to be dating someone or maybe I would have been too young for that kind of thing or we should go out for ice cream or do something.
I'll pick you up and take you to the whatever the pool or something versus.
Right.
So they would just kind of hedge and dodge, right?
And why do you think it would be impossible for them to say, you know what, in hindsight, that really wasn't ideal because it was kind of tough for you to bring dates over.
It was also kind of tough for you to bring kids over as a whole.
Because it's kind of embarrassing, right?
Why do I think it's impossible?
I think for my mom, it's, I don't know, let's just the kind of blanket statement, call it the narcissistic thing.
She is emotional and she implicitly, intuitively kind of feels other people, I think, to some degree, but it all gets translated into being about her.
And I think my dad will intellectually comprehend the contents of a message or conversation like that.
But emotionally, if it's anywhere near anything that he's uncomfortable or unresolved about, he'll be pretty guarded.
Okay.
So I appreciate that.
And I know we've been doing a deep dive and we're almost done.
Can you just tell me a little bit about dating in your 20s?
You said you had one six-month relationship.
And was there anything else that I need to know about that?
Yeah, that was mostly just sleeping together and maybe going out and doing a couple things.
But we did not really integrate into...
This is the six-month one, right?
Yeah.
And what was it that she was looking for?
I think she said specifically she wanted to properly date me.
As opposed to Is that right?
Yeah.
And so this went on for six months that you basically were just friends with benefits kind of thing?
Yep.
Okay.
And she said she wanted to have a proper relationship.
And you said basically get lost, right?
Yeah, that's the right way of putting it.
I was a little more sensitive.
Well, but I mean, that's the effect of it.
Yeah.
I mean, when she says, when she says, I want a date, and you say, no, then you're basically just saying, well, no, I just want sex.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
All right.
I did after the last time we met, and I said that to her, I did cry a bit.
Which is not to make me look better, because it's still as bad as you put it, but also at least part of me recognized that wasn't who I wanted to be or a situation I wanted to be in.
I did something that wasn't with integrity.
Tell me a bit more about that.
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
Yeah, so it...
Again, looking at the behavior and choices, I definitely slept with a woman who I was not interested in dating and didn't see from pretty much the beginning as somebody that I would want to date and get married to.
And I made those choices and we engaged in that behavior and suited for a while as well.
But I didn't...
I didn't have like some...
During or then after when I ended it, I wasn't like, well, okay, well, that was fun.
Or, oh, yeah, well, screw her because she wanted to try to have a real relationship with me.
And what was it that you disliked about her?
The shallow thing that is the honest first thing that came to mind is she wasn't that attractive.
The slightly less shallow second thing that comes to mind is she...
I don't know, kind of inert, which I think was attractive in it.
This will be easy to have a friends with benefits situation because she won't put pressure to...
But as far as somebody I actually would genuinely love and care about, let's not.
Somebody with a little more vigor.
Sorry, what do you mean by she was in her?
Just like passive, like, oh, what do you want to do?
And I don't know, like, women, like when men decide where to go for dinner, they have the options, but just like, kind of everything was go along to get along and not.
Still up with any sort of substance or, oh, let's go do this or, oh, I disagree with that.
Let's figure out how we think about these things.
Okay.
Got it.
All right.
So, you told her you didn't want a relationship.
And, I mean, that's rough on her, right?
And did you, I mean, how did you feel about it?
That basically saying, you're fine to be used for sex, but I don't want to spend any actual time with you.
I was sad about it for a bit.
I was sad about it.
Sorry, I'm not sure if you're going to say more.
Yeah, I wasn't sure either.
Yeah, I was sad about it for a bit, and it's still not a good thing that I did.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And I think for the most part, I moved on and didn't think about it much.
Thinking about it again now, I feel...
Thank you.
And some part of me is kind of trying to shut that down, too.
Okay.
What is it that you are trying to shut down?
Feeling sad about what I did.
Interesting.
Or what happened.
Go on.
There's...
Thank you.
I think there's a part of me that doesn't want to feel sad about it because that part doesn't want to change.
And there's another part of me that thinks I...
Okay, but tell me, tell me, help me understand the sadness.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Was she less intelligent than you?
Not noticeably so.
Okay, and how do you know that?
I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm just curious.
She was a...
I should work on her math masters, I think of physics.
And just between that and talking to her, I don't know.
It's maybe like, But not clearly like, oh, this is an average intelligent person who I will really get frustrated with not being able to have a deep conversation with.
And did you have deep conversations with her?
Thank you.
I think we laid at the surface of them, but I wanted to stay emotionally distant, so I didn't really deep dive.
And why did you want to stay emotionally distant?
Because, I mean, you gave me this impression of this sort of inert woman, but she's actually doing a master's in physics, right?
That's not enough, is it?
No, maybe passive is the better way to put it.
No, it's not passive either.
I mean, you can't be passive and going for your master's in physics, right?
Yeah.
So that's interesting.
Maybe to not find the right adjective for it, but maybe we can find it after this as a better example.
If I started on a topic like what's the relationship between who we are as adults and our childhood experiences, if I talked for 10 minutes, she would just let me talk and I could kind of dominate a conversation like that.
Does that make sense?
Right.
So she wasn't particularly philosophical, which would be part of the STEM thing, right?
I mean, if she talked about a lot of physics, you wouldn't have a lot to add either, would you?
Yeah.
So, I mean, that's specialty stuff, right?
I mean, there's stuff my wife talks about that, or my daughter talks about that I'm not particularly good at or knowledgeable about, and I'll just listen and try to, you know, maybe contribute where I can or whatever.
But...
She's not the same as you, of course, right?
So the fact that you'd have some stuff that you preferred to talk about and that she didn't have as much to add to is the same for both of you, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So I don't quite understand how that's bad, but I'm.
I mean, she's obviously very intelligent.
She's certainly interested in philosophy.
She's willing to sort of listen to it and so on.
She has initiative.
She has ambition.
And this doesn't mean you date everyone who's got a master's in physics or is aiming for that, but I'm trying to sort of figure out, because when you said, you know, she was kind of inert or whatever, I don't think that's necessarily true.
So what do you think was missing?
Yeah, and I can see how...
Thank you.
I think the next thing that comes to mind for me was I wasn't attracted to her but I did want somebody to sleep with.
I'm sorry, but was she physically unattractive?
What was it that was unattractive?
I don't know.
She's like five.
I've had emotional...
Sometimes maybe I'm extra fat in a six, but on my best days, I'm a seven, maybe an eight.
Okay.
So she was not...
I mean, was she overweight or flabby or, you know, no exercise?
Or was it something like she couldn't control her hair and her face?
She didn't exercise that much.
I don't think she was very skinny and I don't think she worked out that much, if at all.
So she was slender, but she didn't work out?
Yeah, and I think there's also stuff she couldn't control.
Her face.
Yes, I mean, you can't really blame someone for that, right?
No, it's not her fault.
Yeah, of course, of course.
Okay.
So, there's stuff that she could have done a little bit more, and then there's stuff that she couldn't have done, right?
Okay.
All right.
And how did you guys get along in terms of values?
Did you both value sort of similar things?
I mean, I assume that with regards to philosophy, you value the kind of stuff we talk about on this show.
Was she relatively positive with that kind of stuff?
I think relatively as the qualifier.
Yeah.
Yes?
Oh, relatively.
Yeah, well, I guess meaning I didn't, again, because I think of what I was aiming for in that relationship, I didn't.
I didn't really press to get into, where's an area where maybe there's potential for disagreement?
And we could figure out if we can navigate that.
So I didn't really try to dig for, hey, when it comes to the really important things in life, are we aligned?
How do we interact in that space?
And how old were you and how old was she when you were dating?
Yeah, I was 25 or 26 and I think she was like a couple years younger.
Okay, got it.
Now, was that the last long relationship that you had?
That was the only, pretty much the only long relationship.
And what's happened since then?
After that, went on a few more dates and slept with some other women, mostly from dating apps.
And then I moved cities and the people on the date, for some logistical reasons, the dating apps didn't work as well in that new city, so I used that as an excuse to stop leaning on those and go figure out how to talk to people, including women in real life.
I think...
And when I moved cities, I went on maybe a couple dates from a dating app and then stopped doing those.
There was one woman.
We never really went on a date.
But we did end up half sleeping together once.
And then another woman who I also slept with for six months or so, but didn't really date properly, or I don't think I dated many people out of a couple of dating updates and those two people.
Right, okay.
Okay, so is that similar to the relationship with the physicist?
Yeah.
Yeah, it was not something that I got into thinking this is maybe a woman who I would like and want to marry.
Okay, got it, got it.
So you kind of use women for sex?
I have.
Well, what else is there?
And what else have you described?
I'm not trying to be a jerk.
I'm just running into something I've missed.
Well, part of doing this call is I'm...
Right.
Now, do you know what was missing?
Hang on.
Do you know what was missing when I was asking you how you felt about how you had dealt with women?
You talked about being sad.
How they felt.
Yeah.
Why do you think that was not there?
When I said that and you asked that, I felt and still feel some anxiety.
Uh-huh.
Good one.
Anxiety and a little bit of a, like, dissociation is kind of one of my patterns for uncomfortable feelings.
Okay.
So why do you think that you don't feel any guilt about how you've used women?
Because it's hurt them, right?
And it hurts women in a way that it doesn't really hurt men as much.
Because now the woman has to look back and say, I thought there was a relationship potential with this guy.
He had contempt for me and just used me for my flesh.
Like a toilet.
I mean, that's really harmful to women, right?
Thank you.
And so, I mean, imagine that you become a father, right?
And you have a beloved daughter, right?
And your daughter, you know, dates some guy.
She really wants a relationship with him.
But then the moment she says, can we do something other than have sex?
He dumps her.
How would you feel about that with regards to your beloved daughter?
I would feel angry.
That guy.
I would feel angry.
I would not like him.
Okay, and what would you say to him if you had the opportunity?
Thank you.
Thank you.
That's a really shitty thing to do.
Well, and clearly you'd be taking advantage of a woman who did not have any protection, right?
She didn't have any wisdom.
She didn't have any adults.
Parents looking out for her.
She didn't have any brothers.
She didn't have anyone who was looking out for her and trying to make sure that she was kept safe in a fairly predatory world, right?
So you were a lion, in a sense, taking a lamb.
Because, you know, because if you had a daughter and your daughter was dating some guy and your daughter was like, you know, he only ever wants to get together to have sex, what would you say to your daughter?
That's not somebody you should have any sort of relationship with.
Okay.
I mean, would you be more emphatic than that?
Yeah.
Thank you.
I don't know.
I would.
He's a selfish user.
He's an exploiter.
He's older than you.
he's counting on the fact that you're not going to have anyone giving you good advice and keeping you safe.
Thank you.
And he's a dangerous guy.
He's predatory, in a way.
Because, I mean, you kind of scarred these women just to get your rocks off, right?
That's pretty bad.
Now listen, please understand, I'm not being some big moralist here.
I mean, Lord knows I haven't always been the ideal boyfriend and all of that, so I'm not trying to launch any big moral missiles to you from some height of perfection, but we do have to be honest about our capacity for being kind of an asshole, right?
Right.
Thank you.
Yeah.
And you're still doing it, right?
I mean, you did the six-month thing with another woman you just used for sex.
You did that just more recently, right?
You did it with the physicist girl in your 20s, and then you just did it again, right?
Yeah, that ended, I think, roughly the beginning of last year, and I haven't slept with anybody since then.
Good.
And you've been listening to what I do for 15 years, right?
So, do you have any excuse?
Not a valid one.
Okay, what's your invalid one?
The best one which maybe has a little bit of validity to it is I I'm worried that I don't know I haven't figured out
how to find something in a woman that I'm drawn to and want to pursue about her that is more than that lustful feeling.
And again, I've done drugs, so I'm very aware of the devil's deal of, well, just go after the lust and maybe you can help something good comes out of that.
most of the time, if not all the time, it doesn't.
But if I don't Thank you.
Okay, so you've been dating now.
You're in your early 30s.
You started middle 18s, right?
So let's just say 15, 17 years, right?
And you've yet to find a woman you want to do anything other than just...
I found I found bits and pieces of that with people and I think generally been afraid to get closer and go deeper when I've Spotted that.
Okay.
So, you know ahead of time that you're not going to get close to these women, right?
The ones that I've just slept with, yeah.
Well, I mean, or any women.
I mean, have you been close to any women?
I mean, have you been close to any women?
Thank you.
Not for an extended period of time.
Yeah, not for an extended period of time, other than the varying levels of closeness that I had with my mom.
I mean, let's not count your mom.
Okay.
If we're talking purely in a romantic sense, not for any extended period of time.
Okay.
I'm happy to, if you're going to lead me into fogland, I'm going to turn on the sonar.
So, what does a non-extended period of time of closeness mean?
help me understand what that refers to.
Maybe certain conversations.
Maybe in moments over the course of a few months.
Listen, I don't do maybe because this is your life.
Yeah.
Right?
So either it's happened or it hasn't.
I don't know what maybe means.
You know, if you say to me, hey, Steph, were you born in Ireland?
And I would say, maybe.
What would that mean?
You made a claim.
And again, I'm not trying to hassle you.
I'm genuinely curious, right?
You made a claim.
And you said that you've been close to women for non-extended periods of time, and I'm just understanding what that means.
And then if you go, maybe, maybe I have doubts that there's any truth in what you're saying.
Thank you.
I think Maybe.
Sorry.
That's kind of funny, right?
I don't do maybes.
First response, maybe.
Anyway, go on.
It's kind of funny.
Go on.
To be clear and add some nuance that might also be dodging the question.
Like, the clear yes or no is no.
Bro, it's not a nuance thing.
You said you've been close to women for non-extended periods of time, and I'm just asking what that means.
There's no nuance.
Oh, okay.
If you say to me, Steph, have you been working out for long?
And I say, well, no, not very long.
And then you say, well, what does that mean?
And I say, well, I need a lot of nuance in this.
It's like, no, it's just like a week, a month.
It's just an answer.
You've been close to a woman, but not for an extended period of time.
I just want to know what that means.
Were you close for a week, a month?
I don't know what that means.
And I'm just asking.
Okay, to use the workout metaphor, it's like, have you worked out?
Yeah, I like Okay, so I'm just asking for an example.
There's an example.
I lifted some 10-pound weights.
So I'm asking for an example of when you were close to a woman for a non-extended period of time.
Like, what does that mean?
What did you do?
What did you say?
What happened?
And look, if you were just saying something and it's not really a thing that happened, that's totally fine.
I don't want to waste your time or money.
I just want to know.
When you say an extended period of time, I don't know what that means.
I think for the purposes of let's be clear and stop fogging, let's just say I haven't.
Okay, I don't know what let's just say I haven't means.
I mean, have you or haven't you?
Okay, to try to answer your last question, And admitting up front that this is foggy, I can recall a particular woman who I don't remember a specific conversation in the specific content, but having conversations that I felt like we got into deeper conversation, and that was a felt thing, not just the intellectual content.
Okay, and so what happened with that woman?
I mean, was she available for dating or friendship or anything like that?
Thank you.
No, no.
She was pretty toxic.
She was toxic?
So you were close and you had good conversations, but she was toxic in what way?
So maybe what I'm calling closeness is some sort of drug-like, it felt one way, but this is just...
Misleading.
Listen, let's just cut the crap.
You've never been close to a woman?
No.
Okay, good.
Let's just kind of get embarrassing, right?
And it's fine.
Listen, we all hedge and fudge.
Okay.
All right.
So, you're in your 30s, right?
early 30s.
When do you think it will be impossible for you to um 10 to 15 years from now.
Really?
I don't think that's true at all, brother.
And I say this like really wanting to help.
I really do.
Oh my God, are you kidding me?
Okay, so you're saying in your mid 40s, it might be too late.
Yes, that's what I...
Okay, so you need...
So I've done a lot of listening.
Here's where I get blunt, if that's all right with you.
Yeah, let's do it.
Yeah, okay.
So you haven't had the view from outside, and I got this from your very first message that you sent to me, which is it's all very internal ruminations, and I think, and I feel, and right?
I don't think you have a view of yourself from the outside.
No.
Okay.
What's your favorite female name?
Favorite female?
Yeah, Xena Warrior Princess is taken, but what's your favorite female name?
Ashley.
Ashley.
Lovely name.
Lovely name.
Okay.
So, let's say that Ashley is a strong, moral, healthy, mature woman, right?
Yep.
And Ashley comes into your life.
Okay?
What does Ashley see that she's going to want to commit to, that she's going to be attracted to, that she's going to trust?
What is she going to see in you?
Thank you.
Nothing that I would say to answer that.
Well, she's going to see that you've been in the dating market for 15 years and nobody wants to date you.
Yeah.
Right?
Think of it like an employee, right?
You're a seasoned, experienced hiring manager.
And somebody's been in the workforce for 15 years.
They've had two jobs for six months where they stole from their employer and that's it.
Do you want to hire that person?
No.
Right.
Do you think it's going to be better in 15 years?
No.
Right.
Do you want to hire that person right now?
If they have almost no work experience and the two places they did work they were lazy and stole things and then when they're When their boss said, I need you to work harder and stop stealing things, they just quit.
Would you want to hire that person right now?
No.
Okay.
Do you still use pornography?
I have recently.
Okay, that's fine.
We don't have to get into details.
So, a woman with any sense and maturity looks at a guy who's single in his 30s and sees a pornography addict, which you are.
In my humble opinion.
Because you use pornography, this is why I was asking earlier, right, about the girls you lost interest in.
Because you use pornography instead of having a relationship.
In other words, the pornography is between you and a productive relationship with females, which means it's having a hugely negative effect on your life and behavior which you continue, which has a hugely negative effect on your life, in my amateur understanding of the word, is an addiction.
So we got a porn addict with no history of any kind of successful relationship with women.
And if you're honest about your prior relationships, she sees that you use women for sex and then dump them when they want more.
I'm not at all.
You do.
I mean, you're very intelligent and you have a lot of So, I mean, there's positive things, right?
But we're looking at, right?
If you go to the doctor and you say, my elbow hurts, he doesn't say, well, your knee looks fine, right?
We're looking at the parts that are the problem.
Does this sort of make sense?
Okay.
Now, then she also looks at your family.
Ashley looks at your family.
Why does Ashley look at your parents?
It's...
It's a good proxy for what I might think is normal and acceptable.
Well, to some degree, what's more practical?
Again, I know you warned me that both you and your dad are very abstract, so I take that warning to heart.
What in a more practical sense would her concerns be about your parents?
Those are grandparents I might not be able to count on or want around.
She's marrying the family.
See, women marry families.
Men date individuals.
But women marry families because women, like a man, gets married and usually doesn't have that much to do with his in-laws, historically speaking, evolutionarily speaking, because what's he doing?
He's going off to hunt.
He's going off to work.
He's going off to war.
He doesn't have to deal with the in-laws.
However, traditionally, a woman marries into a man's family and, you know, the, the, the, Because they've helped and raised the kids, they're like community, right?
So she's going to look at your parents and say, okay, I got 30 years with these people, or 20 years, or however long, or whatever, however long they live, and they're going to be integral to the raising of my children, they're going to be integral to the success of my marriage, and what's she going to see with regards to your parents, and she's going to go and visit your family, right?
She's going to drop by, right?
And what's she going to see?
Hoarding, right?
And real emotional disconnection, right?
And parents who don't have a good relationship with you and who don't seem to care.
And she also is going to know that your parents didn't really give two shits about your biggest goal, which is to get married and have children or teach you anything about dating and are fundamentally indifferent to you.
Very foundational ways.
What's that going to mean with regards to her children?
They're going to be about as useless as tits on a bull.
And in fact, they might even interfere.
Might be negative, right?
Yeah.
So, when I'm saying you need to see yourself from the outside, are you in demand at the moment?
Listen, I can see your picture, right?
You're a good-looking guy.
Right?
I agree with your assessment, 8 plus or a good day, whatever, right?
So you're a good-looking guy.
You're single.
You're in your early 30s, which is where a lot of women do want to settle down, right?
Are you in demand?
You've been on the dating apps.
Are you in demand?
Are you in demand?
Thank you.
Not particularly.
Okay.
Help me understand.
I want to know what that means.
Almost right away, like, went to some meetup networking events.
You mean for dating?
No, like, business or just not dating specific events and chatted with people and got a couple women's numbers, asked them out.
Went on a date or two that way.
Have been on a couple of dates from dating apps as well.
Okay, so when you go on a date.
After the date, do the women pursue you?
No.
Why not?
I mean, are they roughly your age or late 20s, early 30s?
Yeah.
Okay, so they want to settle down.
Right?
You're a good-looking guy.
You're relatively successful in your career.
Right?
You're very intelligent.
Studied philosophy for 15 years.
I think that's a plus.
I hope that's a plus.
So you're a good-looking guy with reasonable levels of success.
You're fit.
You're healthy.
Why don't they pursue you?
It's a fair question, isn't it?
Yeah.
Have you asked yourself this?
My current best I can come up with So far, answer is I'm not clear on what I am bringing to a relationship or what I want from a relationship.
No, this is the inside-out stuff that drives me crazy in this conversation.
I, I, I, me, I, my thoughts.
Why are they not pursuing you?
They don't.
Don't find me attractive in a non-physical sense.
Why didn't you buy the house?
Well, I didn't want to buy the house, but that doesn't answer anything.
Yeah.
Why don't they find you attractive enough to pursue?
I mean, let me ask you this.
So after you go on these dates, do you get messages from the women saying, had a great time, let's do it again?
I've gotten at least a couple of those.
Great.
Okay.
And how has that gone from there?
The one that I can remember most clearly and recently, I asked her out a couple times and she was busy, maybe legitimately the first couple times, but then...
So that's not a woman who wants to date you?
Yeah.
Yeah, because you know how it works, right?
if you ask a woman out and she's Well, no, she will suggest another time.
Oh, I'm busy Friday, but how about Sunday?
So she's just telling you she's busy, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so she doesn't want to date you.
Okay, so why don't women want to date you when you're a good-looking guy, reasonably successful in your 30s, which is a hotspot for women wanting to settle down?
Why don't women want to date you?
Why don't women want to date you?
I mean, I could tell you why, but I'm just wondering if you know.
I'm trying to dig just to see if I could come up with it, but I don't know.
Oh, because you have no emotional accessibility.
None that I can see.
I mean, I've been talking to you for an hour 45, other than a little giggle here and there, and one report of passing sadness.
We've had no emotions whatsoever.
You kind of speak in this monotone that is kind of hypnotic and shows that there's a void, there's a distance from your own emotions.
Is that?
Make sense to you?
Yep.
Yeah.
And if you're distant from your own emotions, women don't want to date you because you don't have the kind of passion that could lead to pair bonding that can lead to security for women.
Yeah, that makes sense.
I mean, I crave my wife.
You know, every time we're around, I'm giving her a hug or a kiss, and I crave her.
So she's perfectly secure in the relationship, right?
But you're going to have to have some feelings for women to want to date you because they can't date distant robots.
They can't date men who don't have passion because without passion, there's no possibility of reliable commitment.
Yep.
So you keep yourself, either you don't have emotions, which I doubt, I'm sure you do, or you keep yourself emotionally very distant because you mentioned a couple of times that you push down negative feelings, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so why?
Why do you, I mean, if this assessment is roughly correct, why do you think you don't express or demonstrate a feeling?
Like, for myself, by myself, or to other people?
Come on, man.
Don't hedge.
Well, what are we talking about here?
We're talking about relationships, right?
And dating.
Yeah.
So why on earth would you need to ask me if this involves other people?
The entire topic of this conversation is other people and dating.
You're stalling.
Okay, I'm afraid.
Okay, go on.
I'm afraid if I feel and act without...
Thank you.
being guarded or trying to suss out who's this other person and what can I say or what can I feel and not, that either I'll be rejected fairly or because I have this history of being afraid to be emotional and connected with people, the emotions that will come out and the way I'll act will be Thank you.
They'll be emotional instead of distant, but it'll be snipey or trying to push them away by not being a fun, caring person, but a snide, sarcastic kind of person.
So you're concerned that you might come across as slight and sarcastic?
Yeah, I think that's the...
Thank you.
To then be able to keep the cycle going.
I will see.
I was honest with this person and they didn't like my jokes.
So what's the point in being emotionally available in Forthright?
But what does jokes have to do with being emotionally available?
Jokes don't mean that you're emotionally available, do they?
Okay.
Thank you.
The most emotionally available people around, which is the case, right?
Yeah, I guess when I think about what does it mean to...
Thank you.
to feel and express and share emotions with other people.
The two scenarios that I see that are, here's my non-valid excuse for why I shy away from that is, one, if I say something genuine, I believe that It's important to be a great parent because that's how we actually fix the world.
But that's a lie.
Hang on.
Hang on.
That's a lie, though.
You don't believe it's important to be a great parent.
Are your parents great parents?
No.
They're still welcome in your life, and you still don't confront them, and you don't have any requirement that they learn to express any emotions with you because they basically say, F you, to go into therapy.
So that's just sentimental.
That's not what you actually do.
That's not how you actually live, right?
Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but I'm trying to be sort of blunt and direct, right?
That's fair.
So, when you say, I think it's important to be a great parent, well, your parents weren't great parents, and that's not a big deal, right?
So.
So, And pretentious, opposer.
I mean, if I was surrounded by liars and I said I think that honesty is a really important virtue, wouldn't you roll your eyes?
Yeah.
You say, well, geez, this guy's just talking to himself.
He's just posing to himself.
Because I can see that he's surrounded by liars, and yet he tells me repeatedly how important truth-telling is.
And isn't that kind of exhausting?
I mean, who's going to want to really get really involved in trying to solve that or, you know, undo that riddle?
Nobody.
Well, especially if this is where you are in your early 30s after 15 years of philosophy.
If you are in the place where you can still just say stuff that you don't really believe without noticing the contradiction, people are going to find that a bit wearying, right?
I mean, kids lie, right?
I'm not calling you some big liar, right?
I'm just, this is one example, right?
Where there's an inconsistency, which we all have, but with regards to...
And they're going to lie a lot, right?
That's kind of how kids do things.
That's, you know, not the end of the world or anything.
But for a guy in his 30s to not really know when he's not telling the truth, that's kind of rough, right?
Yeah.
So to go back to our good friend Ashley, who's very honest and direct, if you say nonsense like, I think great parenting is really important, and then she meets your parents, she's going to be like, what?
Why would he tell me that he thinks great parenting is really important when his parents are kind of not good and he's fine with that?
I mean, you see the challenge, right?
Yeah.
Thank you.
So what does it cost you to be passionate and to show emotions?
Thank you.
Like, what's the harm in it to be, even if you're mistaken, which emotions and passion sometimes are, but, you know, they're still kind of what make life worth living.
So, what does it cost you to be sort of passionate?
I mean, has there ever been a girl or a woman that you've really, really wanted to pursue?
I No.
Okay, so you've probably met hundreds of women over the course of your life, and you've not met one that you're passionate about.
And that's what women will get, that you can't connect, you can't be passionate, you can't pair bond.
Right, so women in their late 20s, early 30s are looking to settle down and have kids, which means they can't waste time with an emotionally unavailable guy.
Now, why do you think you've met hundreds of women and never been passionate to pursue one?
Thank you.
Come on, man.
Just tell me.
I don't know what these pauses are.
These pauses are like you consulting 3,000 in a lawyer so that you get the right response.
It's really exhausting.
Why?
I'm trying to fend you off before.
Why don't you like any women?
Take sex out of the equation, which is what the women say.
Not take sex out of the equation, but they want more than just sex.
Then you say, basically, get lost.
Is it the fault with all the women?
The hundreds of women?
No.
Okay, so what's the problem?
I didn't...
What does that mean?
If we...
I would be uncomfortable with that.
Yes, I know that you would be uncomfortable with that.
Okay, I gotta cut to the chase here, right?
So, the reason why you can't show any passion is passion meant nothing to your parents.
Your passions, your feelings, your preferences meant nothing to your parents.
It adjusted nothing.
They did not change their behavior.
You didn't want them to be hoarders.
They kept being hoarders.
You wanted them to talk to you more.
They didn't talk to you more.
You want them to go to therapy.
They don't go to therapy.
They don't care about your preferences, your passions, your emotions.
Yeah.
Thank you.
So how do you survive in a relationship?
You're an only child, right?
How do you survive in a relationship where your parents don't really care about your feelings and your preferences?
Stop having them.
Yeah, you've got to stop having them.
Because it's too painful.
Because having feelings and having preferences shows your parents appalling deficiency in connection and love and affection and caring.
It shows them to be cold.
And for children, having your parents revealed as cold and uncaring is terrifying because it means you can't trust them to take care of you and to keep you secure.
So you hide your feelings because your feelings were like death to you.
Having passion, having preferences is like death to you.
Because whenever you would express them and your parents would be indifferent, you would feel death anxiety.
Like they're not going to take care of you.
They're not going to protect you.
They could just wander off in the middle of the night and leave you behind in the woods.
If you're inconvenient, if right.
This is why when I asked you earlier, I said...
Yeah.
Right.
And I say this with deep sympathy.
Please understand, this is not a criticism, but I say this with massive and deep sympathy.
That if your parents don't care about your passions, you have to abandon your passions when you're a kid.
Not when you're an adult.
When you're a kid, you have to abandon.
Your passions, they are too dangerous.
This is like you've got to throw your goods overboard in a storm on the sea, right?
So for you to express passion and attachment and lust and need, desire, well maybe not lust, need and desire for another person is terrifying because when you were growing up as a child, with regards to your parents and maybe others, That was a path to absolute disaster.
It's like leaning over a cliff, right?
You don't want to go anywhere near the cliff edge because leaning over the cliff is really dangerous.
You can fall forever.
You can fall forever.
Parents are there to facilitate the success of the legitimate desires of their children, right?
You have a legitimate desire to get married and have kids.
Your parents don't give a shit.
They didn't teach you about girls.
They didn't teach you about dating.
They didn't teach you about sex.
They didn't teach you about connection.
They didn't teach you about marriage.
And they barely inquire now.
Your mom a little bit, and she's mostly stopped doing that, right?
Yeah.
So they don't care.
They don't care.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Thank you.
I mean, if my daughter really wanted to get married and have kids, and she was in her early 30s and single, And I've never had a real relationship.
I can't even tell you.
I'd be like turning myself inside out.
I mean, I've never in a million years let it get that far, right?
But they don't care.
They're cold.
They're cold.
And because they're cold and they're still unconfronted and in your life, you're still deferring to them and their power.
And their power is, don't you fucking bring up any needs.
Don't you have any preferences that go against what we want and what our preferences are.
We win, you lose.
And we will escalate either neglect or aggression if you show any needs because it's incredibly inconvenient to us and it pisses us off.
So you can't have any needs.
And that means you can't pair bond at the moment, right?
This is why women can't attach to you.
This is why you're not in demand, despite being a good-looking guy in a highly desirable demographic.
Because women sense that.
This guy can't have needs.
If he can't have needs, he's only going to have lust.
He's going to use me for sex.
I won't be able to pair bond with him.
And the moment I ask him for more, he's going to run back to mommy and daddy and take refuge in the boxes of the trash house.
you Thank you.
And I say this again with great sympathy.
Great sympathy.
Great sympathy.
Thank you.
So you've got to just start expressing needs.
Thank you.
You've got to start pushing needs and preferences and desires away.
You've got to start pushing that away.
I mean, you don't have to, but you won't connect with Ashley or a quality woman because she'll sense that about you.
There's a certain amount of selfishness in going on dates.
And never expressing any desire or preference afterwards.
Right?
Now you've kind of become like your parents in a way in that you're provoking needs in others and then denying them, right?
Because your parents provoke needs in you just by being your parents, right?
And now you are provoking needs in women like this physics girl or the other girl six months.
You provoke this need in them.
You're around.
You're having sex.
And then they say, I want more.
Just as you said to your parents, I want more.
And what do you say?
Fuck off.
Yeah.
Get lost.
You're not going to get anything from me.
Too bad.
And then you go to another woman and you date her and you have sex with her.
You provoke this desire in her, right?
So you're doing what your parents do to you.
You're doing to others.
That's why it's an emergency.
Like, it's a serious emergency because if you keep doing it, you'll lose any capacity to pair bond.
That's why I kind of barked in horrified laughter when you said 10 to 15 years from now.
It's like, no, brother, it's fucking now.
Now!
It's now.
It's now whenever.
Have you done therapy?
Yeah.
Okay, and did your therapist try to help you with emotional experience and expression?
Some have, some haven't.
Okay.
And have you got that as a project in your life that you need to do and work on?
Thank you.
Not specifically.
You're still doing fog and ink like a squid.
I'm startling in the water.
Not specifically.
Generally, in some vague interstellar option, it might be the case.
But you know what I mean?
You also have to start answering things directly.
The hedging stuff is really annoying.
Ashley will rather chew through her own brassiere than be with a guy who keeps hedging everything.
Because you can't have...
When everything's half of this, half of the other.
Yeah, yeah.
No, you don't.
You don't, because otherwise you'd have worked on it specifically and directly.
Or you'd say to me, you know, I recognize that I'm coming across as kind of emotionless and this has been something I've been working on for a while.
You didn't tell me any of that, right?
No.
And again, not a big criticism.
I'm just telling you my experience, right?
Thank you.
And if you want to get married, you're going to have to pair bond.
And to pair bond, you're going to have to feel very deeply.
And you're going to have to express that.
Express those.
Yes.
A woman will not want to be with a guy who cannot express.
Who cannot feel or express his feelings.
Any more than you want to marry.
Chat GPT And she doesn't want to have kids with someone who's not emotionally available because then the kids are going to go chasing after you the way that you had to go chasing after your parents, right?
Yeah, I don't want that for them.
Right, right.
I mean, do you experience loneliness much?
Right.
Right.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Right.
And I've recognized this too with these dates.
I've gone on a good amount of first dates in the last few months and only first dates.
And recognized I'm not feeling compelled to pursue them and that is definitely something they're picking up on.
Right, right.
So, and this is part of the humor and the distance and the flatness.
I mean, listen back to this call and see, you're more animated now, but, you know, for the first hour, it's like one tone, just monotone.
And that's tough to connect with, right?
Yeah.
Thank you.
Okay.
Yeah, I got called out in high school for being monotone when I was reading.
Emulator or whatever Shakespearean play.
Right, right.
Oh, yeah, so you know that to some degree, right?
And I assume that part, I mean, I'm quite animated in my voice, and maybe that's part of what you appreciate or enjoy about the show.
Yeah.
For sure.
Okay.
Okay.
All right.
So, yeah, as far as emotions go, Nathaniel Brandon has some good sentence completion workbooks, as just John Gray.
And I would just say, though, when you have a feeling, and I remember this from, I won't sort of get into the details, but many years ago, sort of having to work on this.
If you have a feeling, a negative feeling, don't push it away, man.
Just take a deep breath, let it in, accept it.
I would say, assuming it's safe and it sounds like it is, have a real conversation with your parents.
Yes.
Thank you.
Don't be afraid of their negative opinions.
Because you're an adult and you have reason to complain.
You have good reasons to complain.
And if they're the reason why you can't express your feelings to others, express your feelings to them.
And if they get mad and they reject you and so on, experience that pain.
You'll survive it.
You'll survive it.
You're not 5 or 10 or 15 anymore.
You'll survive it.
And once you've survived, people...
All right?
Thank you.
You're very welcome.
Is there anything else that you wanted to mention at the end here?
I don't think so.
Please keep me posted about how it's going.
I really appreciate the conversation.
I'm heavily invested now.
Because very blunt and passionate is you have an enormous amount to offer, and I just want to make sure that you find some way that you can offer all of that to a woman.
All right?
So do I, and I appreciate that.
All right, man.
Keep me posted, and I'll talk to you again, I'm sure.
Thank you.
Have a good rest of your day.
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