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May 22, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:31:36

Why Am I Dead Inside? CALL IN SHOW

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	I've been having trouble with my marriage of a little over seven years.
	My wife has repeatedly indicated that I'm not committed to our family.
	We have no connection or intimacy.
	I don't offer her any criticisms, positive or negative.
	And I avoid difficult conversations about our relationship.
	For example, putting this call-in off for months now.
	I find it difficult to express my own preferences and assert myself in many situations and tend to acquiesce.
	I also find myself constantly creating excuses for and defending my aggressive, overbearing father, who has had more interest in seeing me help his business succeed than the success of my relationship with my wife.
	The only real interest he's shown in our family since we married is wanting to spend time with our two children.
	He has been a point of contention against our marriage for several years now, indoctrinating me with a do-anything-you-can-to-get-the-job-done and Work is the ultimate way to support your family kind of mindset.
	I've had problems being a workaholic for him, furthering away my precious time with my wife and children.
	I've changed jobs recently, and I've since put myself on a 9-5 schedule that ensures I get consistent time with my wife and kids.
	But it seems the thing that I can't get away from is apologizing for, making excuses for, and defending my father's bad behavior and persistent aggression towards my wife.
	Like trying to intimidate her to see our children.
	I keep ultimately bringing him back into our marriage.
	And I fear the loss of the amazing woman I call my wife, the one person I know who wants me to be successful and to shed the dead weight of my upbringing.
	What can I do to build my connection with my wife, restore intimacy, and show unwavering support and loyalty to my wife and children?
	How can I address clinging to my father, a man who's ignored my preferences and opinions for as long as I can remember?
	Well, that's interesting.
	So your marriage has been seven years, but it's not that you've had trouble.
	Has it been that you've had trouble over the whole seven years, or is it more recent?
	Well, it started kind of early on.
	I'd say that...
	There was a point where my wife and I were just kind of rolling along off of our honeymoon kind of phase and then she started having some issues with her parents or realizing some issues with her parents and then she went through a lot of therapy and like IFS therapy and that kind of stuff and I believe she's called in with you at one point and Basically,
	she has stopped talking with her parents and went her own way.
	And since then, she's been urging me to really look at my relationship with my parents and just the kinds of things that she noticed from when she was going through that work.
	And kind of alongside all that, I had some intimacy issues where, I mean, everything's fine when we're being intimate, but she would express that she wants to be a little closer, have a little more time together.
	Sorry, when you say intimate, I hate to be sort of so crass, but you mean sex or just general emotional intimacy?
	I'd say both.
	I know for a long time, and probably still now, I'm a little bit emotionally unavailable.
	Sometimes I find it hard to just connect with stuff that...
	I don't know.
	Just hard to connect.
	But definitely sex, too.
	I think some of that was forming a bit of a...
	Sorry.
	Mental block here.
	No, take your time.
	No rush.
	It's like inadequacy, I guess is the best way to put it.
	Well, that may not be the best way to put it because that covers a whole host of things.
	So if you could be more specific, I'd appreciate it.
	Like not having enough sex and just...
	I think...
	I started to feel inadequate because she was expressing these needs and I started really just like diving into my work and using that as a way to kind of avoid confronting that issue.
	That's very abstract if you don't mind me saying so.
	I'm not sure what you're referring to in particular.
	So needs and inadequacy, I'm not sure what that means.
	Well, she wanted more sex.
	Right.
	And I thought I was providing enough of that.
	And he just was asking for more.
	And I don't know if this is kind of a strange...
	I've been trying to wrap my head around it this past week, getting ready to talk to you.
	And it's like...
	I just felt like...
	I couldn't give her enough.
	Sorry, are we still talking sex?
	Enough sex?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And, sorry to be so blunt, you don't have to answer anything you don't want to, but what sort of frequency is your sex life as a whole?
	Well, then, earlier, it was better.
	I'd say a couple times a week, on a good week.
	And it's tapered off a lot, and basically we've not been having sex for quite some time now.
	I don't know, it's been a year, maybe more.
	Sorry, are you saying that you have not had sex for a year?
	Yeah, it's been pretty dry.
	Sorry, pretty dry or not had sex?
	Not had sex.
	Gosh.
	Yeah.
	So first married a couple of times a week, and then...
	What happened before a year ago?
	Did it sort of taper off?
	Was it a cliff edge or something like that?
	It was more of a confrontation of just that I'm not doing anything to improve the situation.
	I'm so sorry to keep nagging you.
	When you say the situation, I don't know.
	You know what you mean.
	I don't know what you mean.
	The situation could refer to things with your father, things at work.
	It could refer to your sex life.
	It could refer to emotional intimacy.
	So when you said she's not, she's dissatisfied with how you're not improving the situation, which situation do you mean?
	Pretty much all of them.
	All of them.
	Okay, so the whole marriage, the life, the big picture, the zoom out.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	I've been just kind of cruising along and living as day to day and not focusing on, you know, the future and just not trying to improve our intimacy, not trying to work on our sex life, not doing anything.
	Okay, so did it taper off or did it cliff edge?
	It had tapered off and then it just...
	Like, after our second child, it reached a very abrupt, like, hey, I don't feel loved and...
	Sorry, I don't feel loved is your wife saying that?
	Correct.
	Okay, so she doesn't feel loved or she doesn't feel affection.
	And was it sort of a conscious decision to end the sex life?
	On her side, yes.
	So she said, we're not having sex.
	We're going to live like brother and sister or like roommates.
	Kind of more like, yeah, you're treating me like a roommate, so what's the point?
	Okay, so she cut off sex out of dissatisfaction in the relationship.
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, and what was your frequency like before the cutoff?
	Well, before we were, like, consciously trying to have children, so...
	Yeah, we'd give her a couple times a week again.
	And then after we got pregnant with our second child and went through the birth and everything, there really wasn't anything after that.
	Okay, so the birth of the second child coincided with your wife saying, I'm done with the whole sex thing.
	Yeah, it was probably a couple months after she was born, but yeah.
	And was there something new that was dissatisfying, or was it an accumulation of stuff from before, or was there something new?
	I believe it was a little combination of both.
	Definitely an accumulation from before, but also, when we had our first child, we had talked to my parents about how we were going to raise the child and some concerns that we had.
	With the way that they raised me, and my father basically brushed that stuff off and was like, well, I am who I am.
	And I, just having a little context, I worked for my dad up until a couple years ago.
	Yeah, I got that sense from the message, because the relationship with your father and the workaholism all seemed to be tied in, but then you went nine to five, right?
	Yes, because after having the first kid, I was like, I can't sustain this.
	With his business, there were times where I was doing like 14-hour days, and fairly consistently.
	So, I mean, it was not helping the situation.
	Sorry.
	It was not helping the connection with my wife.
	Sure, sure.
	And to resolve these issues.
	Okay, and what was your pay like for all of that extra work?
	Well, I was hourly for a very long time, which kind of worked out okay.
	It wasn't a lot, but it was enough definitely to survive.
	And then some things happened.
	My brother ended up coming back to work with my dad.
	And somehow we managed to agree on a salary-type deal.
	Sorry, we being you and your father?
	And my brother, yes.
	Sorry, is your brother, why would he be in charge of your salary?
	Is he like a co-owner with your father, or is there some other reason?
	My father wanted to make the business into this three-way ownership situation.
	And I don't know why my brother got put on it.
	I had like eight years seniority on him since he had left and went to school.
	So that's part of my issue with my father is he didn't really offer any benefits to having worked that much longer than my brother.
	We all ended up on kind of the same salary three ways.
	And how many extra years did you have in the business compared to your brother?
	At least eight, because I was working off and on out of high school, and then I went to college for a couple of years.
	And then after I came back from college, then I was working full-time with my dad.
	My brother was off doing his own thing, decided to move back into town because he had a kid.
	For a while, we were all hourly, and I was working a lot more than he was, so it kind of made sense.
	I was managing our crew, and he was just kind of doing some getting-paid-day-of stuff.
	Yeah, I got a little lost there.
	Oh, no, no.
	I got it.
	So, you as a younger brother, same age?
	He's a couple years older than me.
	Sorry?
	A couple years older.
	A couple years older.
	Okay.
	So, you had more experience, but then your father put both you and your brother, despite you having almost a decade more experience, on the same salary.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	And, of course, well, did your work obligations, like the 12, 14-hour days, did they diminish?
	No.
	No, in fact, I think they got worse.
	Okay, so you just started losing money because now you're on salary, which means, I assume, you don't really get overtime.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And then there was no negotiation at that point.
	It was just like, well, it is what it is, and we've got to live with it, was always the deal with my dad.
	What does it mean, we've got to live with it?
	I mean, you don't have to live with it.
	It's not your business.
	Yeah, well, that's kind of where I ended up.
	Leaving, working with them, I just got fed up with it and just left.
	Yeah, and it's not a real business if people have to work for free.
	Right.
	Or be heavily subsidized.
	Like, that's just not a real business.
	And a lot of family businesses pretend to survive in that kind of way.
	Yeah.
	Because basically, they're exploiting family members.
	Right.
	For the sake of cohesion and unity and the business and blah, blah, blah.
	And it's like, no, it's not.
	That's not really a thing, if you're just getting free work, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Alright, so you quit a couple of years ago, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And you went 9 to 5, and it was a year ago that you started having sex, right?
	It might have been a little more, but yeah, I was just right around.
	My daughter is 2-ish, so right around, you know.
	A couple months after her birth.
	So, I mean, closer to two years, right?
	Yeah, by now, I guess it would be closer to two years.
	Okay.
	And do you, again, sorry to be so blunt, but, you know, we can discuss these things, particularly man-to-man.
	Do you have no sex drive in particular?
	I mean, do you have a sex drive?
	Do you have any lust at all?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Actually, it's been pretty tough.
	So you're supposed to take that out on your wife, right?
	So what's going on?
	I mean, is she still on strike?
	Is that right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	She's basically on strike until I can, I guess, do something.
	Like me, personally, put some effort into the relationship.
	And it's just one of those deals.
	I feel like I just float along.
	And I don't...
	But yeah, she wants to know that I am committed to the relationship and that I am going to put in effort and do something.
	Yeah, I'm still, that's very vague.
	Put in effort and do something.
	I don't know.
	How do you measure that?
	What is she looking for in particular?
	Well, this call-in was one of...
	One of the things she suggested.
	Another one is weekly therapy sessions, journaling.
	So she wants to go on a similar journey that she went on.
	With regards to sort of self-knowledge, self-development, you said she did internal family systems therapy.
	She confronted her parents.
	She did food.
	I guess the confrontation didn't go well, which, of course, is tragic, but I kind of understand that.
	So how long ago did she start going on this journey, sort of personal journey of growth?
	I want to say she started in like 2017 or 18. Wow.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, you know, seven or eight years ago, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, what was it that impelled her to start going on this journey, in your view?
	I think part of it was that she and I had moved in together, and so she was spending a lot more time away from her parents.
	um um I haven't really pushed in that too much.
	I mean, you were there, right?
	Yeah, I was there.
	I know her dad's pretty aggressive, is a good way to put it.
	Intimidating, maybe.
	Okay, so she started to go on this journey.
	Now, was your perception that you were fine and...
	She needed to go on this journey to, like, you know, I play pickleball with my wife.
	Now, if I pull a muscle, right, then I have to go on a rehabilitation journey, stretching, heat packs, like whatever it is that I'm going to do, right?
	And the goal of that is to return to a state of normal, ordinary functionality so that I can play pickleball with my wife, if that makes sense, right?
	So she's fine.
	I got injured.
	I'm going on a rehab journey so that I can go back to playing pickleball.
	With my wife, was your perception that you were fine, your wife had issues, she was going to go and fix them like I would fix a pulled muscle, and you were fine?
	Was that your general perception of that?
	Yeah, I mean, my upbringing was somewhat religious.
	My parents were, in my perception, better than most.
	And especially in comparison to her parents, who seemed like they could just go off the hook at any moment.
	It seemed like I was, you know, I seems like I grew up in a pretty decent household, but I'm kind of realizing that that's not necessarily the case.
	Okay, so what has changed in your perceptions of your upbringing?
	Well, after listening to a lot of your stuff and talking about...
	Spanking and yelling at kids and that kind of stuff.
	Realizing that that was some of my childhood.
	And then thinking about the kind of ways that my parents have treated me since then, after they stopped spanking.
	Realizing that I didn't really have an opinion in our family.
	It was just kind of what the parents say goes.
	Okay, so sorry, when you say you were spanked, spanking is a sort of wide swath of possible behaviors, you know, light swat on the butt through clothing all the way to hitting with implements.
	So where did you land on the spanking continuum?
	Probably the whole thing.
	Sorry, I don't know what probably means.
	I mean, we're not...
	You were there.
	You have direct experience.
	I don't know what probably means.
	I mean, let me ask you this more directly.
	Were you hit with implements?
	Yes.
	Okay, and what were you hit with?
	The most aggressive incident that is burned into my mind is I had a wooden spoon used on me, and I remember the wooden spoon having been broken once.
	Holy crap.
	Okay.
	All right, so you were beaten savagely, right?
	Breaking a wooden spoon is not easy.
	Breaking it on a child's tender flesh is completely sadistic and brutal and tortuous.
	I mean, does that feel like too strong a statement?
	No, I would agree with that.
	And how old were you when you were beaten and spoon broke?
	I don't remember exact age, but it would have been...
	Okay, so just so you know, like if we have this conversation, I don't even know what an exact age is.
	So you don't have to give me all these caveats.
	That comes from your father being aggressive, right?
	So, I mean, just six or seven is fine with me.
	I don't need an exact age.
	Just so we don't slowly go insane with caveats.
	You don't have to give me caveats because this is not a cross-examination in a court of law.
	So you don't have to get things perfect, just roughly.
	Okay.
	Somewhere between four to six.
	Oh my god, really?
	Now, were you beaten before with a spoon that you remember, and it was just that one time that it broke, or was it?
	Most of the time, which it didn't, I could probably count, sorry, again, probably.
	I think I could count the times that I've been spanked on my hands.
	Usually, it was done with hands.
	I remember a threat of a belt on a couple of occasions, but I don't think they ever used a belt.
	And I think the last time they ever spanked me was the spoon incident.
	And that's when you were somewhere between four and six?
	Yes.
	And do you remember what happened before you were beaten in this way?
	I do not.
	Okay.
	So it was like over the course of your childhood you were hit maybe half a dozen times.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	What about your siblings?
	Yeah, my brother, definitely.
	I would say that he probably got it worse because he was more apt to act out than I was.
	Okay, so I'm not sure what you mean by got it worse.
	Does that mean he was beaten more or harder or both or what?
	More.
	More frequently.
	It seems like I remember seeing him get spanked more frequently than I remember being spanked myself.
	Again, more frequently.
	I don't know what that means.
	Does that mean instead of it being five or six times over the course of his whole childhood, was that weekly, monthly, annually?
	I don't know what you mean.
	Hard to say.
	I just...
	I know it was more often than I got it.
	So maybe 20 times in his childhood.
	Okay.
	So what about name-calling, screaming, or yelling, that kind of verbal aggression?
	More of just getting loud and intimidating than any name-calling or screaming.
	Like if something wasn't going my dad's way, he would definitely just get loud until it was his way.
	Thank you.
	Okay, and how often would you experience this kind of intimidation from your father or see it?
	It wasn't terribly often, maybe...
	Once every couple months.
	But I mean, it was enough to scare a little kid.
	Yeah, you remember, right?
	Yeah.
	And what about your mother?
	My mother was the one who did the spoon.
	Oh, wow.
	And I think after that, she, I don't know, got scared and just left it all to my dad.
	Well, I mean, she could have been arrested.
	Right.
	I mean, you're seen with those kinds of bruises, or maybe even broken skin, and she could go to jail.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And your father did hit you, but rarely.
	That, I don't remember if my father actually hit me.
	That's the thing.
	I know my mother did.
	I don't remember my father hitting me, but I know he yelled at me on many occasions.
	Okay.
	Well, you said once every couple of months, if I remember rightly.
	Yeah.
	I mean, through my childhood.
	Okay.
	If somebody was yelling, it was usually him.
	Okay.
	No, and of course, you know, once every three months over 10 years, right?
	That's 40 times.
	So that's a lot.
	Okay.
	Now, what did your parents do?
	I mean, you're a father, I'm a father, you have disagreements with your kids, and sometimes they're fairly strict in moral disagreements.
	So...
	If your parents weren't hitting and were very rarely yelling, how were you disciplined, if that sort of question makes sense?
	I would say that's where the threatening language comes in.
	Like, if you don't, then I will.
	No, no, no, I get that.
	But, I mean, there's no way that two boys are only going to need any kind of corrective action.
	Every couple of months.
	I do recall being put in the corner a lot.
	Like a timeout?
	Yes.
	And how did that go?
	How was that implemented?
	It was basically yelling until either me or my brother were in the corner, and we stood there until the allotted time was up, which could have been upwards of an hour.
	That doesn't answer my question.
	I'm sorry if I missed something, so forgive me if I missed something, but if you said that being put in the corner was being yelled at, but you only yelled at a couple of times a year, and I say, well, you have to have had correction more than a couple of times a year, and you say, well, my correction was being put in the corner, which was associated with yelling, but the yelling only happens a couple of times a year.
	Then I assume that the being put in the corner only happens a couple of times a year.
	And that's fine.
	I just want to make sure that I understand that your parents kind of let you run free and wild and only corrected you a couple of times a year.
	Yes, but at least from my experience, I watched this happen to my brother more, and that was kind of a deterrent for me, so I didn't often follow in his footsteps.
	Okay, so your parents were pleasant and positive and, I assume, affectionate.
	But then a couple of times a year, you'd get yelled at and maybe put in the corner.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	That is remarkable.
	That is remarkable.
	And also, very not Christian.
	Yeah.
	I mean, this sounds like almost neglect, to not give any particular feedback or correction to your children.
	Well, to you, again, your brothers more, right?
	But just with regards to you, I mean, the Bible is very clear that you train your children up in the way of the Lord.
	Yeah.
	And so, what the heck were they doing?
	If they weren't...
	Because they weren't parenting, it sounds like.
	I mean, again, if I'm missing something, please let me know.
	But, I mean, oh, maybe they provided such positive, good examples that you really didn't need much correction.
	I'm open to all possibilities, but I'm surprised, and that could be my deficiency, of course, right?
	But I'm surprised that harsh parents, Christian parents, Only sort of it to correct you a couple of times a year.
	Yeah.
	Well, I think where it goes here is that my parents were very absorbed in their work.
	Both of them worked together, of course.
	And any time that we weren't at home, we were at school or scouts or church group or they basically just...
	put us in other people's hands for every waking hour of the day.
	So absent, kind of absent neglect stuff, right?
	I mean, I've been a stay-at-home dad.
	I mean, my daughter's now 16, and I just remember, I mean, the amount of corrections.
	Be careful of this.
	Don't do that.
	Put that down.
	That's too hot.
	Don't take that.
	You know, I mean, at least I don't think it's unique to me.
	This is constant stream of Feedback and corrections that children need.
	I mean, obviously it doesn't have to be disciplined, but it sounds like there was a lot of, it seems like a fair amount of neglect.
	I think there was a fair amount of what you're talking about, kind of the not like physical or negative feedback where it's like, you know, careful, don't hurt yourself.
	There's plenty of that.
	But I think...
	Yeah, I mean, that happened a lot more often.
	But I just really remember the physical stuff.
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	And a whole lot of, like, just not even being home, not even having time to think about relaxing because we have something to go do.
	Okay.
	And what about moral instruction, which is really the essence of parenting, right?
	Any stranger can keep you alive.
	But what about close connection and moral instruction, which, of course, is the essence of Christian parenting?
	How did that go in your childhood?
	There was, you know, don't, can't lie, be fair to others, and that kind of stuff.
	But I think the majority of that was kind of handed off to the church group.
	We do weekly mass, of course, and then...
	I just kind of put in the hands of the church group and get taught through them.
	And the Boy Scouts and sort of other things.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And how did your parents get along?
	They seemed to get along pretty well.
	I do remember when I was much younger, probably, again, like four or five, that they would yell at each other a bit.
	But as I got older, they really didn't yell at each other or anything like that.
	They'd have some disagreements, but it seemed like they always got through them.
	And most of it revolved around work.
	Okay.
	But they didn't seem very close either until maybe the last five years here.
	You mean the last five years?
	How old are you now?
	I'm 37. 37, okay.
	All right.
	And it's just you and your brother, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And were they helpful in your teenage years as you start to negotiate things like peer pressure and dating and, you know, girls and all that?
	Minimally.
	There was, like, the...
	Getting handed, again, letting the school teach us about sex ed.
	I think the only comment I got from my parents on that was, do you need condoms?
	Once, when I had a girlfriend already.
	Oh, so they didn't teach you anything about how to pick a good girl or how to talk to girls or how to ask girls out?
	You just had to, what, invent that stuff on your own or read stuff on the internet?
	How did that go?
	Learn it through my peers, I guess.
	Huh.
	Well, why do you think they were so uninvolved?
	I'm not sure.
	I know.
	I didn't ask you what you were sure of.
	What did I ask?
	I thought they were uninvolved.
	No, well, why you think, not what you're sure of.
	I mean, they're not here, and even if they were, we couldn't necessarily count on them to tell the truth.
	But why do you think they were so uninvolved?
	Why do you think they were so uninvolved?
	It almost seemed like they didn't want to...
	I don't know.
	Just saying the same thing.
	We didn't want to be involved in our lives.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	Okay.
	What do you think?
	What do you think?
	I'm not sure, Seth.
	Again, I'm not asking you what you're sure of.
	You must have thought about it.
	I have, but I never really came to any conclusion on why.
	Well, I mean, there really are only a couple of possibilities.
	Either they don't care, or they care, but they're unable to express it.
	Okay.
	So have you seen instances where they show great caring and passion?
	And I'm not talking about in the realm of business, but in the realm of personal life, in the realm of personal relationships, that they've shown sort of commitment and passion in that realm or shown that they care in that realm?
	Well, I don't know.
	Thank you.
	Well, I think that their example of caring would be, well, we took you to the...
	You know, the scout outing or whatever that we signed you up for.
	So you should be grateful.
	Okay.
	Have you had any conversations with your parents about your childhood?
	Not really, no.
	I don't know what not really means.
	We're back in fog land.
	Sorry.
	I started to bring that stuff up with my dad.
	My mother passed in, I think, 2017, but started to bring it up with my dad around that time.
	Oh, it's around the time that your wife was starting to get into this sort of self-knowledge and history stuff, right?
	Yeah, because we were also having our first child.
	We were talking about having children at that point, and I think that's what might have pushed my wife into it.
	Yeah, so we started talking with my dad about it.
	And again, he just kind of pushed under the rug and said that, you know, he is who he is and he's not going to change.
	You know, he may be a loud and boisterous guy, but he's just going to be that way.
	That's just who he is.
	Sorry, so he is supposed to be accepted by you because he is who he is and he's not going to change, right?
	Yeah, that's kind of the gist of it.
	Okay.
	And when you were having these conversations, were you asking or demanding or expecting him to change in some sort of fundamental way?
	We were just asking to, my wife and I, were just asking him to talk about it and consider the way that we were parented, that I was parented.
	Kind of how that would look if we were having a child.
	Sorry, how what would look if you were having a child?
	Do you mean how your father would parent his grandchild or something else?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And so what did you say about how you were parented to your father back in 2017?
	Well, I expressed some concerns about having been spanked and...
	That was met with just...
	I don't always...
	What did he say?
	There are things that I've done that I'm not proud of, but can't take back the past, I believe is what he said.
	Can't take back the past?
	Were you asking him to have a time machine and take back the past?
	I don't quite understand what that means.
	I mean, that's just such a blindingly obvious thing.
	Yeah, that's the way I...
	I thought he was just kind of flabbergasted, like, why are you telling me this?
	Okay, so then what?
	What happened?
	He basically just dodges and deflects and makes excuses for any of the stuff that we had concerns about and just kind of says, well, it's who I am.
	Sorry, what does that mean, it's who I am?
	The way he treated us and the way he acted.
	With the spanking and yelling.
	So you're supposed to conform to what he did and approve of what he did because that's who he is.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so in what way is he supposed to conform to just who you are?
	Right, because that's a universal principle, right?
	You have to accept everything I've done and all the decisions I've made because that's who I am.
	So then he must have that principle.
	With you and others as well.
	That if he doesn't like something that somebody else has done, then he should not have a problem with it because that's just who they are.
	Because it sounds to me like he was pretty aggressive when you were a kid.
	It also sounds to me like he's kind of aggressive as an adult.
	So where is this principle in his relationships to others that you shouldn't be bothered by what other people decide because that's just who they are?
	And of course, if you made a mistake at work, did he get upset with you?
	Well, I just made sure I didn't make mistakes at work.
	Okay, come on.
	Let's not do this deflection stuff.
	Are you saying that the entire time you worked for your dad, you never made a mistake and he never got upset with you?
	He would get upset and I would just end up having to work and fix it, basically.
	But why would he get upset if you can't change the past?
	And that's just who you are.
	It's a decision you made.
	You can't change the past, and it's just who you are.
	So why would he get upset?
	You're not allowed to get upset about being beaten as a child, because that's in the past, and that's just who he is.
	So some work problem, why would he get upset about that, unless he's a complete fucking hypocrite?
	Yeah, and I started realizing that with the religious background, too.
	It just didn't match the love your neighbor as you love yourself kind of thing.
	Well, turn the other cheek and all this kind of stuff, right?
	Okay, so is he just a hypocrite?
	Like, if you criticize him, you're somehow trying to break the space-time continuum by traveling back in time, and you're just not accepting him for who he is, don't you see?
	But if he has a problem with you, you better goddamn well fix it or else.
	Right.
	Is that right?
	Okay, so he's just a manipulative hypocrite.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Is that something you know?
	It's something I've become much more aware of in the last couple of months.
	And what has changed that has had you become more aware of that in the last couple of months?
	Well, I keep...
	Let's see.
	I hate this kind of personality structure.
	I'll just tell you my bias right up, where you punish a fucking four-year-old.
	But what you do at the age of 40 should be completely forgiven and ignored because you can't change time and it's just who he is.
	However, the four-year-old gets the shit beaten out of him with a wooden spoon.
	Yeah, it's pretty terrible.
	That's repulsive.
	Like it's morally cancerous in my view.
	Anyway, so I just want to give you my sheer prejudice, whether that's prejudice or reasoned out.
	We can leave for another time.
	Okay, so what happened over the last couple of months that gave you this perspective a little more?
	Well, we've been not having him around, so he's not able to see our grandchildren.
	But why is he not?
	See, that's after you started to realize negative things, I assume.
	So I'm asking what brought about the negative things.
	So because of that, he was pushing...
	Because of what?
	Because of not letting him see his grandchildren.
	But why were you not letting him see this?
	I need to know not the shadow, but what's casting it.
	So why was he not seeing his grandchildren?
	Because he wouldn't address our concerns.
	But you brought the concerns up in 2017.
	And you said in the last couple of months, I need to understand those seven years.
	Sorry, I just feel like you're skipping to the end of the movie thinking I know what happened.
	I don't.
	I'm sorry.
	My wife was being assertive in how we were raising our children and did not want to.
	I don't know what that means.
	Assertive to who?
	Or assertive with the children or what?
	Assertive in how, like, with me and how we were going to allow or disallow people in our children's lives.
	Well, not people, but behaviors, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So she could see the way my dad was behaving long before I could.
	She was always hinting.
	No, no, no, no, that's not true.
	You could absolutely see.
	But you chose not to.
	Because that's a matter of trust, right?
	If your wife says your father is really aggressive and you mentally shout her down or ignore her, that's not because you can't see.
	If I close my eyes and say I can't see, well, that's true, but I have chosen to close my eyes, haven't I?
	Yeah.
	So...
	Your wife, who had gone through therapy and had philosophy and self-knowledge and journaling and books and was an expert in this stuff, was trying to tell you stuff and give you rational proof and empirical evidence and recent moral arguments, I assume, and all that kind of stuff, right?
	Yes.
	And what did you do?
	I just kind of shrugged and didn't really listen to her.
	Okay, I'm not sure what didn't really listen to her means.
	Did you say she was wrong?
	Or did she say she was right but didn't change any behavior?
	Or something else?
	Yeah, I didn't change my behavior.
	I didn't, like, I agreed that we shouldn't allow my dad to interact with our kids.
	Okay, so again, so 2017 was when your first kid was born, right?
	Okay, so you said that you shouldn't allow your dad to interact.
	With your kids.
	And when did you quit the family business?
	Was it a couple of years ago?
	About the same time my first was born, which is actually 2020.
	So there was a couple of years of...
	Sorry, I thought 2017.
	I'm sorry if I've got this all messed up.
	I thought you had the confrontation in 2017 in part because did you have a miscarriage or do I just have the timeline completely wrong?
	No, I'm probably not filling you in very well.
	We started talking about kids in 2017, so we brought it up with my parents.
	Didn't have the kid until 2020.
	And was there medical issues, or you just didn't try, or miscarriages?
	Just a little bit of not trying and some of the intimacy issues.
	Oh, back 2017-2018?
	Yes.
	Okay, sorry.
	I thought that that mostly kicked in 18 months or so ago.
	No, it was kind of peppered in throughout our relationship.
	And this is before you had kids, so you had the intimacy issues, the sexual infrequency before you had kids.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	We picked it back up because we wanted to have kids, and then...
	And this was because your wife felt that you were uninvolved or absent or whatever in the relationship, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Okay, so...
	After you have your first kid in 2020, your wife says, I don't want your dad around our kids?
	Yeah, and I agreed with that, just because of the way he responded to our inquiry earlier on.
	The 2017, so a couple of years before.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, we haven't been letting him see our grandchildren right on up through now.
	Okay, so when you said your wife said he was a bad dude in some ways, But you couldn't see it.
	I mean, you saw it at least in 2020, right?
	I mean, I assume you saw it to some degree in 2017 when he gaslit and avoided and minimized your concerns about having issues in your childhood.
	So when you said you couldn't see it, I'm not sure what you're referring to, because 2017 to 2020, it seems that that was going on.
	And certainly since then, that's been fairly clear.
	So help me understand what you meant when you said.
	And I'm not trying to nitpick or cross-examine.
	I'm just trying to get the timeline straight.
	So when you say, Well, my wife said that he was a bad dude in some ways.
	I just couldn't see it.
	I'm not sure what you're referring to.
	Okay, so I was still working with my dad through till about end of 2020.
	So I still had to...
	Oh my god, okay.
	So sorry, I thought you quit.
	I thought it was a couple of years ago.
	That's what I first thought.
	Then I thought it was 2017.
	So it's 2020 that you quit, right?
	I think it was October of 2020.
	Okay, got it.
	So, but 2017, you'd had the conversation, your wife was there, right?
	And she saw this gaslighting and all of this kind of stuff, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so then your wife, through you and your conversation with your dad and getting the feedback from your wife, she, I guess, made the case.
	She said, look, your dad didn't listen, he's gaslighting, like all of that kind of stuff, right?
	Yep.
	Okay, so 2017, she's telling you, and did you disagree with her then and say, no, he is listening, or he's going to come around, or something like that?
	Yeah, I was wishy-washy and making excuses for him, and yeah, oh, he's not a bad guy, you know, he goes to church.
	Okay, so you rejected your wife, even though she was doing therapy and stuff like that herself, you rejected your wife's evaluation of your father?
	Yes.
	Why?
	Was it because you were still working with him and that was just your gig and your career and that's a lot to give up?
	That was part of it.
	I don't know if Stockholm Syndrome is a very good way to put it, but I think part of it is.
	Well, I could understand that if you were still young, but I mean, you were in your mid-30s at that point, right?
	Oh no, early 30s at that point, right?
	So it had been, you know, I mean, 13, 14 years since you'd become an adult, so that's a...
	A long ways away, right?
	Yeah, but also at this point, I've been working for my dad for close to a decade.
	No, and that's a completely fair point.
	Thank you for bringing that up.
	You're totally right.
	I withdraw the thrust of the last statement.
	You're right.
	Thank you for the correction.
	Okay.
	All right, so you kind of rejected what your wife was saying, and how did she respond to that?
	That...
	I think was kind of the catalyst for us drifting.
	Yeah, that would make sense.
	Because you're supposed to protect her and you're supporting somebody who she views as abusive or at least not a positive influence.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And did you say that she was wrong or that she was right about your father, but he was going to change or...
	She was exaggerating.
	I believe I said that she was wrong and that she was exaggerating.
	Okay.
	Now, did your wife...
	You said you'd be married seven years, but how long have you known her?
	I've known her since grade school.
	We went to the same school together and didn't really know each other until college.
	Okay, got it.
	2017 plus, after your confrontation with your dad, how did your wife, or what was your wife's perspective about you working for your father?
	Did she want you to stop doing that?
	At first, before she went through her therapy, she was okay with it.
	I was making decent enough money.
	Then as time went on, it really wasn't good money anymore.
	What's that relative to the hours, right?
	Right.
	She wanted me to, yeah, find a different job.
	And sorry, what year did you go from hourly to salary?
	2014, 2013 maybe.
	Okay, got it.
	Okay, so she wanted you to quit your job with your dad, is that right?
	Yeah.
	And what were her primary reasons for that?
	Or what was the case she was making?
	Just that I was working too much.
	And not getting paid more, right?
	Right.
	Now, what about, did you have ownership in the company?
	I don't know if it's a company that has stocks or shares, but did you have sort of management and ownership in the company, or were you a salaried employee only?
	The way my dad pitched it when I first agreed was that I would be like, well, before my brother got involved, was that I would be like 60-40 with my dad.
	He'd be 60, you'd be 40?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And sorry, what was the process by which that was going to happen?
	Like what, time frame?
	Because that could be at just about any time, right?
	Yeah, it was kind of when we agreed on it, it was almost immediate.
	Oh, so you did the paperwork back in the day, right?
	Like 10 or more years ago, you did the paperwork so you got 40% of the company, right?
	Yeah, and it was really more verbal than anything, because self-employed kind of thing, and he would always make good on it back then.
	Okay, so you weren't just getting the hourly and then the salary, you were also getting profit-sharing from the company, is that right?
	Yeah, yeah, like we'd get bonuses from some of the things we'd do on the side.
	Well, no, no, hang on, sorry, that's not, profit-sharing is not a bonus.
	Right, so if you've got, I mean, I just make the numbers kind of simple, right?
	Just because I'm not super brilliant at math.
	Okay, so if the company makes $100,000 free and clear, and you have 40% of the company, I'm obviously oversimplifying, but then you get 40 grand.
	Right.
	But that's not a bonus.
	A bonus is, hey, good job, I'm going to throw a little extra something in your paycheck this week on the discretion of the boss, right?
	Yeah.
	And I would say we got a little bit of that, too, because one of the things we did was real estate and occasionally a property would sell.
	No, no, but that's nice.
	But as far as you got 40 percent, so you took 40 percent of the profits or you had the option of doing that.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	And was that because you didn't mention any of that when you were talking about hourly and salary?
	Well, I think we just...
	Worked so tight on our budget that my salary was basically my cut.
	Wait, you're working 12 to 14 hours a day and there's no profit in the company?
	Very minimal.
	But why?
	You know, as a high school kid, it seemed okay.
	Yeah, but we're not talking about when you were a high school kid.
	We're talking 10 or 11 years ago when you were in your mid-20s.
	What are you talking about?
	Yeah, I don't know.
	It always seemed like there was this prospect for bigger and better.
	Sorry, did you look at the books?
	I mean, you're almost 50-50.
	Oh, you're a 40% owner, right?
	Right.
	So you've got to look at the books and you've got to figure out, are we making any money?
	And what's my profit?
	And if you're not making any profit, then you've got to change things in the business so you make some damn money.
	Yes.
	And I threw a lot of my opinions on how to do that.
	And most of them never landed.
	What do you mean never landed?
	Like you just ignored them or rejected them?
	Yep.
	I think the best I'd get is, oh, that's a good idea.
	See if you can make that happen.
	Okay.
	And did you see if you could make that happen?
	I would try, and a lot of times I'd be like, hey, Dad, I need some help with all some technical stuff here.
	Can you help me out?
	Nope, you'll have to do that on your own time.
	I mean, I don't know how technical money-making is in business.
	I mean, you raise your prices and or you lower your costs.
	I mean, just raise your prices.
	Yeah.
	Our business is...
	It was the kind where if you raised your prices, of course, it pushes people away, right?
	Sorry, how is that a guarantee?
	There's tons of...
	Are you saying that Ermes...
	I mean, look at Starbucks, right?
	Starbucks is some of the most expensive coffee that you can get on the planet, and they do a roaring business.
	What are you talking about?
	You raise prices, and you're a premium distributor, and the idea that everybody is just so price-sensitive that you can't raise prices just flies in the face of...
	I mean, has he never heard of BMW or Maserati or Bugatti or anything like that?
	I mean, not everything is like some second-hand Lada.
	I mean, there's tons of places that charge more.
	What is he talking about?
	We're more of a service company.
	And we work on commissions.
	And?
	And there are a lot of other similar businesses in our area.
	And it seemed like if we tried to change our numbers at all, our business sharply declined.
	Oh, so you did try to raise the prices and it failed?
	We would, yes.
	We tried all sorts of things and it just never seemed to affect us in a positive way.
	Okay.
	Because, of course, you have to do marketing and market yourself as a premium then as well, right?
	Yes.
	I mean, BMW doesn't just have more expensive cars than, say, Honda.
	They have a whole marketing campaign to brand them as more valuable, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, obviously, we can't go back in time and look at the business stuff.
	So, then the other option, of course, is to lower prices.
	Sorry, to lower costs, right?
	Sorry.
	Bad way of putting it.
	So, you know, you raise your prices.
	If you can't do that, then you have to lower your costs, right?
	So, you've got to get a reasonable profit out of this thing.
	Right.
	So, in that department, we have some people that work with us to help us accomplish our goals, and they are already getting paid, I'd say, way under what they should be.
	Sorry, who's getting paid way under?
	Just some of our workers are people that help us out.
	Okay, so you are underpaying workers?
	Yeah, and to offset...
	Some of the lack of workers because of that, I was doing more work myself.
	Okay, so you underpaid your workers and you are giving free labor, so that lowers your costs.
	So where's the profit?
	Good question.
	Well, don't ask.
	You should know.
	You worked there for 10 years or plus, right?
	Yeah, I just...
	It never happened.
	Okay, but did you look at the books?
	Some.
	So my father was the lead man, and my mother was the accounting and marketing department.
	Okay, so your mother's the accountant, and you're a 40% owner, so your mother should be able to tell you why, despite the fact that you're underpaying your workers and you, and I suppose your brother later, are providing massive amounts of free labor.
	Why there's no profit.
	Yeah, and the answer that I always got was, we're making enough to get by, and it's just kind of, you know, work is life sort of a thing.
	Okay, but I'm still trying to figure this out.
	Like, you're a 40% owner.
	You need to open the books.
	And make sure everything's on the up and up.
	Because if you're underpaying your workers and you and your brother are providing scads of free labor, there should be some fucking profit.
	Yeah.
	And if there isn't, where's the money going?
	Right back into the business.
	We pay for more marketing, more labor, as much as we could.
	But every business has marketing costs and more labor is, you're still underpaying your labor, so there should be profit.
	Yeah.
	So where did the money go?
	I can only assume that that was kept with my dad.
	Well, but if you look at the books, you can figure out how much money has been taken out of the company and you can figure out where it goes.
	There's a destination bank account.
	I mean, I've looked at lots of EBITDA and P&L sheets and, I mean, you can figure out where the money's going.
	Yeah.
	I think by the time I was getting to the point where I was like, where is the money going?
	It was about the same time where I was like, I just want out of here.
	Okay, so when did you quit again?
	I quit in 2020.
	And are you still getting dividends or profit sharing from the company?
	No, I pretty much just went hands-free.
	Sorry, but you had a 40% ownership in the company.
	Yeah, that wasn't making any money.
	Well, but it...
	It might, and it's still...
	Did you sell it back to your dad?
	I mean, he gave you 40% of the company in lieu of a salary.
	You quit.
	You've still got 40% of the company.
	So, I mean, he didn't cheat you, did he?
	He didn't just say, walk away, and now the 40% is just magically reabsorbed, and I'm the owner again?
	I hadn't really thought about that, but I basically was just, you know, wiping my hands clean of it.
	I don't care what you were doing.
	I care what your father was doing.
	He gave you 40% of the company.
	Right?
	If I have shares, like I get shares in Apple because I'm working at Apple, right?
	I get 10,000 Apple shares, right?
	And I quit Apple.
	I still have my shares, right?
	Yeah.
	So where's your shares?
	Where's your 40% of the company?
	You know, I think I was just so fed up with it at the end that I just...
	Okay, it's not about you.
	What was your father doing?
	Did he say to you, well, okay, I'm sorry you're quitting, but we've got to work out this 40% thing.
	No.
	So he cheated you.
	He just took your 40% and you didn't do anything about it.
	Seems that way, yeah.
	No, don't give me seems that way, bro.
	Don't fog on me.
	This is your life I'm trying to help you with.
	Yeah, he never brought it up.
	Okay, so he just reabsorbed the 40% of the company he gave to you on a handshake deal and you had no paper on it.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so he just stole 40% of the company from you, didn't he?
	Yeah.
	Did your wife know about the 40%?
	She knew that I was part...
	You know, part owner, but not...
	Yeah, I guess she did.
	Did she ever mention, okay, you're quitting, like, what are we going to do with this 40%?
	Um...
	I don't think she did, no.
	And did your brother ever mention it?
	Did he have any ownership?
	Uh, no.
	I think he may have picked up some ownership after I left, but...
	I mean, why am I the only one upset by this?
	What do you think?
	I don't know.
	I mean, I was just happy to be out of there.
	I guess I never really thought about it.
	Okay.
	Well, are you thinking about it now?
	Yeah.
	And what do you think?
	Or what do you feel?
	I feel robbed.
	I feel...
	This is your father.
	Yeah.
	That's pretty rotten.
	I mean, he might say this 40% isn't really worth anything because the company isn't making any money, but we need to discuss this, or you need to have an accountant come and look at the books, or we need to paper this.
	He could have ended up, I don't know, maybe getting the 40% back for some nominal fee or some future profit sharing or something like that, but to just pretend the whole deal never happened is horrible.
	I mean, parents are supposed to look out for their kids.
	I mean, parents are supposed to look out for their kids.
	You have sweat equity.
	You got 40% in lure of money.
	And if he wants the 40% back, at the very least, right, so let's say you worked an extra 20 hours a week, right, in return for the 40%, okay, then he just has to back pay you for the amount of extra hours you put in if he wants the 40% back.
	Well, I can't afford that.
	It's like, but that's what I worked for.
	So then I have to have the 40%, and I need to get the books audited, and I need to get my profit share.
	40% of your profits.
	Yeah.
	Okay, I don't know.
	This is kind of a weird conversation, because this is outrageous to me, but you don't care, right?
	So I'm barking up the wrong tree, because you don't care about this stuff.
	That's fine.
	I mean, I don't want to waste your time.
	I don't know.
	I'm just shocked.
	I never noticed that.
	I mean, you did remember about the 40% because you just told me.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Thank you.
	I don't know what to say.
	I'm just shocked about it.
	Well, what are you shocked about?
	Mostly.
	They never said anything to me.
	Yeah.
	It's sketchy and skeevy and slimy as hell, in my opinion.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	All right.
	All right.
	So, I mean, I'm not really sure where to take the conversation from here, because I feel like, I guess this is what your wife feels, I suppose, right?
	Like, she's just kind of talking to a blank wall?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, I'm not going to try and do your feeling for you.
	So you tell me what you want to talk about.
	Thank you.
	Well, I guess that paired with...
	Where we were going with the conversation before that side.
	My dad had been pushing to see his grandkids, right?
	So, occasionally, he would be at this place where we get some groceries and stuff.
	My wife would go there with the kids.
	They like to see the farm animals out there.
	And my dad would show up.
	Like, just sort of by coincidence?
	Yeah, he also, it's like a farm share.
	So he'd pick up his groceries, and the coincidence was that our pickup date was the same day.
	Okay.
	We'd try and not be there at the same time, just because we didn't really want to interact with them.
	Well, what is your interaction like with your father over the last couple of years?
	For me, it's just kind of casual conversation that usually...
	It takes the form of my dad talking about everything he's done with no real concern.
	Okay, but I don't mean the content.
	Sorry, I was unclear.
	But how often do you talk to your father?
	It's been drastically less in the last year, but every month or two.
	Okay, so you have barely any contact with your father?
	Yeah.
	Okay, and you only had the one conversation seven or eight years ago regarding...
	Your childhood and nothing in particular since, right?
	I've brought it up once, about two years ago, again, because he was, again, pushing to see his grandkids and was like, we really need to talk about this before I can be comfortable with even, like, discussing seeing your grandkids.
	And it was another one of those times where he would deflect and kind of say, I am who I am.
	And we just continued the...
	Oh, so you just let it fade?
	Yeah.
	Like you both pretended that the conversation had never happened?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Why?
	How does that benefit you to self-erase in that way?
	I think it's just avoiding the...
	Avoiding the conflict.
	What conflict?
	Having to talk to my dad about something that I don't...
	Like having an opinion...
	No, but you don't have a conflict.
	Bro?
	You say, this is what I want to talk about.
	Well, I don't want to talk about it.
	Okay, call me when you do.
	Where's the conflict?
	He doesn't have to talk about anything he doesn't want to talk about.
	But you say, well, if you want to talk to me, this is what I want to talk about.
	This is just who I am.
	You're going to have to accept it.
	This is what I want to talk about.
	Well, I don't want to talk about it.
	That's fine.
	Okay.
	Call me when you're ready to talk.
	Well, I may never be ready to talk.
	Well, that's a shame.
	But this is the price.
	The price of being in conversation with me is we're going to have to talk about what I want to talk about.
	That's the deal.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	So where's the conflict?
	Tell me what the conflict is.
	Whenever he's confronting me about wanting to see his grandkids, I...
	No, no.
	There's no conflict.
	Okay.
	Pretend you're your dad and I'll be you.
	And you've had these two conversations, 2017 and two years ago.
	Okay, so ring, ring.
	What does your dad say?
	Hey, how's it going?
	Usually talks about himself.
	Okay, dad, sorry.
	Do you remember the conversation we had where I need to talk about the childhood stuff?
	You'd probably say...
	Just be him.
	Just roleplay him.
	Yeah, I haven't had a lot of time to look at that.
	Okay, well, I'm not going to talk about the grandkids or your day or what the weather's like or what you had for dinner last night.
	This is the conversation I need to have.
	So give me a shout when you're ready, when you've thought about things and you're ready to have that conversation because that's next on my list of things to talk about and there's really nothing else.
	Right?
	I'm 35 years, 37 years old.
	Right?
	And I've spent, you know, close to four decades doing what you want and accommodating you and you are who you are and it can't change the past.
	I get all of that.
	So now I have a requirement and I need you to respect it.
	Now, you don't have to respect it, but the price of being in conversation with me is that we talk about this stuff.
	Okay?
	I'm not saying do you agree, but do you understand what I'm saying?
	Yeah, but it'd be a real shame for those kids not to get to know their granddad.
	I don't know or care what you're talking about.
	I'm telling you that this is a requirement to be in conversation with me.
	So, all due respect, when you're ready to have that conversation, let's set up a time to meet and we'll have that conversation and it'll probably be a whole series of conversations.
	So, if you care about seeing your grandkids so much, which I like, I mean, I like that, and obviously it would be great to have you be part of their lives.
	So, if you care about your grandkids, Then get your head on straight and get ready to have this conversation because that's what's needed.
	Right?
	And if you don't want to have that conversation, that's fine.
	Then clearly you don't care about seeing your grandkids.
	And you don't particularly care about me because that's the price of being in conversation with me is we actually have to talk about the stuff that I want to talk about.
	Okay, so you're not ready to do it now, right?
	As myself.
	I think if I said something that...
	Straightforward and blunt to him, it would blow his top.
	Okay, so what would he say?
	What would he do?
	I think he would be flabbergasted.
	I think he would...
	Be him, what would he say?
	You know the man pretty well.
	What would he say?
	The thing is, I don't think I've confronted him that way.
	Okay, what do you think?
	I mean, the reason that you haven't confronted him, give me a worst-case scenario of what he would say, because you have a worst-case scenario.
	Right?
	You've scared yourself with a hand puppet called Dad, and I'm not saying that's an unreasonable fear, but what is your concern or your fear about what he would say if you were this direct and honest with him?
	Mm.
	I think you just go into, like, some sob story about, you know, woe is me, and I guess that's not all that scary.
	Okay, so then I would say, Dad, Dad, okay, stop.
	I need you to take a deep breath.
	I really need you to take a deep breath.
	This isn't about you, okay?
	Dad, focus on the phone call.
	Focus on the stuff that's going in your ear, not the stuff that's pouring out of your self-pity, okay?
	This is the conversation I need to have.
	This is what I require in our relationship.
	Now, I know you're not particularly used to accommodating other people's preferences in a relationship, but trust me, it'll be healthy.
	It'll be good for you, right?
	It's okay for two people to have needs in a relationship.
	I've served your needs sometimes.
	Here's one need of mine you need to serve, right?
	Because the Bible taught me, thou shalt not bear false witness, so I don't want to lie and pretend I don't have concerns or problems that I do.
	The Bible teaches me to honor thy mother and thy father, and I'm I don't honor you by lying to you and pretending I don't have any problems or issues when I do, right?
	I want to be honest with you, so I want to be honest.
	So, you just need to focus on me and this is not about you.
	This is about me and my preferences and my requirements.
	This is what I need to talk about.
	This is what's important to me.
	I need you to accommodate that.
	If you don't want to accommodate that, it's totally fine.
	You can call me when you are ready to accommodate that and we can have that conversation.
	If you call me as if I didn't tell you this, I can consider that really fucking rude.
	And I'll probably just hang up on you.
	I'm going to be straight with you, right?
	I want to be honest with you, right?
	This is really important to me.
	And if you call me up again, pretending that I didn't have this request or this requirement, I would consider that very aggressive and rude.
	I'll probably just hang up on you, honestly.
	Like, you need to address this issue or not.
	But if you don't want to address this issue, I'm not going to talk about what the weather is like in your neck of the woods.
	Or whether your coffee machine is working or broken, I'm not going to do that.
	This is what I want to talk about.
	If you want to talk with me, this is what we're going to address.
	If you don't want to address it, keep to yourself until you're ready to address it.
	Is that clear?
	Yeah, I think at that point he would schedule with me and want to talk about something.
	Okay, I doubt that, but you know him infinitely better than I do, so I'm obviously going to take that.
	Okay, so why not do that?
	Well, I think, though he would schedule with me, I think that he would just continue to give me the same kind of...
	Okay, then you say, no, no, this is about me.
	I need you to listen.
	Stop talking.
	Stop talking.
	This is not about you.
	Right?
	Look at me, Dad.
	Look at me in the eyes.
	This is about me.
	I got some problems.
	I got some issues.
	Right?
	You let mom beat me.
	You're very aggressive.
	Terrified me when I was a kid.
	You barely parented me.
	You shoveled me off to church groups, youth groups, pastors, congregations, boy scouts, you name it.
	You worked me half to death.
	And I think you stole 40% of the company from me.
	I got some issues, Dad.
	Are we going to have to start addressing this shit?
	But it's just about me and my issues.
	This is not about you and your feelings and what you like and what you want and time travel and you are who you are.
	Nope.
	This is about me.
	You need to accommodate what it is that I want to talk about.
	I've got some complaints.
	I've got some problems.
	You're a big, tough, strong guy.
	You can handle it.
	Right?
	You're not a little girl scout, not a little girl guide, big, tough, strong guy.
	Right?
	You've always told me that.
	Big.
	You're the kind of tough guy who yells at children.
	Okay, so you're a big, tough guy.
	So you can handle it.
	Let's start discussing this stuff.
	Right?
	I mean, tell me what's...
	I'm not calling him an asshole or an abuser.
	I'm not insulting him.
	I'm just telling him what I think and feel and what I need.
	And I'm not saying that's the easiest conversation with somebody who's aggressive and intimidating.
	I get that.
	I'm not saying it's like, oh, it ain't no thing.
	I get that.
	But what's wrong with that?
	That sounds...
	That sounds like a very, like, succinct way to handle that.
	Well, it's not handling it.
	I don't know what handling it means.
	It's just being honest.
	I mean, obviously, I'm not saying it the way you would say it.
	I'm not you, but it'd be something you just, you're being honest with the guy.
	You're not lying through your teeth.
	You have these issues, you want to talk about them, and you just are honest with him about that.
	But why not?
	And I'm not trying to say why not, like, oh, big failure.
	I'm just, I'm genuinely curious what's so terrible.
	I mean, you're pushing 40. You're independent of the guy, right?
	He's not going to beat you up.
	He's not going to resurrect your mom to hit you with a spoon, right?
	Right.
	So what's wrong with doing that?
	Why is that so impossible?
	Why is honesty with your father so impossible?
	And again, I'm not saying this like some big critical thing.
	It should be easy.
	I get that it's not easy, but why is it so impossible for you?
	Why is it unthinkable?
	I don't know.
	I think I get that kind of flash of the yelling dad mixed with the pity thing.
	Oh, like he'd yell at you and then switch to self-pity?
	Nowadays, yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	I mean, my fundamental question is, don't you want to get laid?
	I'm not kidding about that.
	Yes, I do.
	You get the connection, right?
	Yes.
	How old's your dad?
	65. Okay.
	So, how inspiring is it for your wife and children?
	If you're terrified of a senior citizen?
	Not very.
	Does it make her tingle in her lady parts?
	I think it might do the opposite.
	Well, it's a lady boner killer, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	Okay.
	So why do you have someone in your life who intimidates you and pushes you around and you repeatedly fold in the face of?
	I mean, you get the cost of that, is the respect of your wife and kids.
	Your wife now, your kids in the long run.
	Like, given the price that you're paying, why wouldn't you just be honest with the guy?
	Again, I know it's scary and all of that, but the guy's 65. What's he going to do?
	Roll you?
	So, why is it worth sacrificing your wife's respect, potentially your marriage, having sex?
	Like, why are you just masturbating in a bathroom rather than talking honestly with your father?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I don't know.
	Well, you do know.
	You do know.
	And again, it's not a big criticism, and I'm certainly not calling you a coward or anything like that.
	It's a genuine curiosity, right?
	I'm not telling you anything you don't know.
	Your wife is begging you.
	Like, you know, please stand up first.
	Please be assertive.
	Your father is a huge bully and an issue in our life, right?
	Right.
	So, I mean, do you want to...
	And it could be.
	Because when people do things that...
	Like, if you were playing Russian roulette, right, every day, I'd say, well, you must want to die, right?
	Right.
	So, if you are...
	And, you know, people who just massively overeat, it's like, okay, you kind of want to die, right?
	Okay, so...
	Maybe you just want to get divorced.
	Maybe you don't want to be with your wife anymore and you just won't take the step or maybe you're full of resentment or whatever it is, spurned sexual advances or feeling isolated and rejected.
	And I'm just casting about here to try and figure out why you would refuse to take the steps that would reignite the love and respect in your wife.
	Do you?
	And it's a genuine question.
	This is not a trick question at all.
	Are you done?
	Do you want to not be married to your wife?
	No, I definitely still want to be married to her.
	Okay, so then why are you not doing what she asks?
	Because you realize you are doing to your wife what your father is doing to you, which is rejecting her legitimate needs and requests.
	I don't agree with her doing the whole withholding sex thing.
	I don't agree with that at all.
	But you understand that you're just treating your wife the way your dad treats you, which is she's got legitimate requests.
	And you're just gaslighting her and poo-pooing her and saying, that's why I asked earlier, did you just tell her she was wrong about your dad?
	Or she was exaggerating or whatever, right?
	So she brings up what she thinks and feels, and you just gaslight her and tell her she's wrong, and then pretend nothing happened.
	And that's what your father does too, right?
	So, you know how...
	Bad your father makes you feel when he does that, so why would you do that to the woman who's the mother of your children who you claim to love?
	Hmm.
	Bad your father.
	Well, maybe that's why you can't confront your father, is you have to confront how you've acted like your father.
	Yeah.
	You're probably right.
	That was interesting because my wife has actually brought up a very similar question to me before.
	What has she asked?
	Do I realize that I'm treating her like my dad treats me and why would I do that?
	When did she bring that up?
	How long ago?
	A few months.
	Okay.
	And is she wrong?
	No.
	She's absolutely right.
	So then, why haven't you acted?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Is she going to leave you?
	She's talked about it.
	Okay.
	Is she going to leave you if you don't change?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So then you just wanted to leave.
	Like, that's what I'm trying, I mean, you just want to leave.
	Because years ago, I mean, really, seven or eight years ago, after the first confrontation with your dad, she's been begging you to draw some boundaries with your dad and be honest with your father, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	What is the, boy-girl, girl-girl, boy-boy?
	Boy-girl.
	Boy-girl, okay.
	How healthy is it for your children to see you get pushed around like this by your dad?
	I'm not saying they see it directly, but they certainly see it in how you are in the world.
	It's not good for them at all.
	So you're doing negative things to your children.
	You're doing negative things to your wife.
	She's so exasperated.
	She's talking about leaving you, and you still won't change.
	You've had almost no emotion in this conversation.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	So, I mean, you must want to be alone.
	I'd honestly rather have my dad gone.
	Well, no, that's not true, though, because otherwise, I'm not saying whether he should, but just be honest with him, right?
	Yeah.
	So, did you like your wife's parents?
	I didn't really know them, of course, as deeply as she did.
	Of course, you didn't know her as deeply as she did.
	Jesus, these stall tactics are crazy.
	Okay, go on.
	Did you like your wife's parents?
	They had a good facade.
	Did you like your wife's parents?
	Yes and no.
	They had quirks that I really didn't like about them.
	Okay.
	You said that your wife had a bad childhood, right?
	Yes.
	Did you like the people who did the greatest harm to your wife, who you claim to love?
	Did you like the people who did the greatest harm to your wife of anyone in the world?
	Deep down, no.
	They seemed petty and selfish.
	Okay.
	Why is that so tough?
	I love you.
	Why is that so tough?
	I think that's me being used to giving my dad excuses.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	All right.
	Well, I guess you can just continue to give your dad excuses.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Like, you don't seem to have any fight in you for your family.
	Like, you're not...
	Oh my God, why do I do...
	Like, there's no...
	I mean, you had this available, this call, your wife's been begging you to make this call for months, right?
	Right.
	Given the choice between my wife and my father, my wife, hands down.
	But it's not hands down.
	Because she's been telling you that for years, right?
	Yeah, I think I've just been refusing to acknowledge that he's the problem.
	I know that you've been refusing to acknowledge that he's the problem, but I don't see how that's going to change if you don't have any emotion.
	I mean, do you feel anything about this conversation?
	We're talking about the future of your family, the abuse you suffered as a child, or at least the neglect, which is actually...
	One of the worst forms of abuse.
	We're talking about your wife wants to leave you, you haven't gotten laid in close to two years, and you don't seem to have any emotion about it at all?
	Do you think that comes from the neglect, from just growing up in this emotional void of non-parental involvement?
	Maybe disconnecting so that I don't have to feel the hurt.
	Well, I mean, but do you feel the hurt?
	Because I can't see you, right?
	So all I can go is, and you're just, you know, kind of talking like, yeah, no, it just bothered me, right?
	It's kind of vacant.
	Yeah, I've been told that by my wife as well.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, do you have the feelings, but you are repressing or avoiding them?
	Or do you just not have the feelings at all?
	I have the feelings.
	Sorry, I can't hear you very well.
	It's like you've gotten further away from my microphone.
	Yeah, I definitely have the feelings.
	It's just like I think I've gotten comfortable with not showing them outwardly.
	Okay, so what are the feelings?
	Like this deep, sunken feeling in my chest.
	Sorrow.
	A bit of anger.
	That's the way my dad's treated me.
	A bit of anger?
	Like what percentage?
	80. What?
	That's not a bit.
	80%.
	Oh, do you mean like 80% of the sorrow is anger?
	Or you said some deep sorrow and a bit of anger, and I'm not sure what rough percentage of anger we're talking about as part of the sorrow.
	Deep sorrow and a bit of anger.
	And I'd say that all the anger is just...
	like why why am I letting my dad treat me like this and uh you you Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what happened to him.
	Yeah.
	What does that mean?
	I don't know what that means.
	I'm just...
	The more this is going on, the more I realize that I'm kind of hating my dad.
	Well, let me ask you this.
	Your kids are four and two?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, let's say, and sorry, is your oldest a boy or a girl?
	Boy.
	Boy, okay.
	So, let's say that you have a babysitter.
	A babysitter comes with some decent recommendations and you and your wife go out to see a movie, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And you come home and your child is screaming and hiding in the closet and there's a broken wooden spoon in the kitchen.
	And you say, well, what the hell happened?
	It's like, well, I had to beat your son because he didn't listen to me.
	And you go and you find cuts and welts on your son's body because the babysitter beat him with a wooden spoon until the spoon broke.
	you Thank you.
	Would you feel, say, deep wells of sadness with just a hint of anger?
	No, I think it would be deep, deep anger.
	Okay, what would you do?
	Probably be half tempted to use a wooden spoon on the babysitter.
	Yeah, you'd want to beat the babysitter, right?
	Yeah.
	Would you rehire the babysitter?
	Oh, no.
	Would you continue to chat with the babysitter and hear about the babysitter's life and what he had for lunch and what the weather was like and just chat with the babysitter like nothing ever happened?
	Well, why not?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Because I wouldn't want to talk to an abusive person.
	wouldn't want them involved in life at all.
	Thank you.
	So why is your son so worthy of protection and you're not?
	Why is your anger there to protect your son from a babysitter who beats him only once?
	And I know your father didn't beat you, but your father married the woman and stayed married to the woman who did beat you, so he's equally complicit.
	Thank you.
	Why is your son worthy of the protection that your anger gives him, but you're not?
	Thank you.
	No, I should be.
	Okay, again, you're back to feeling nothing.
	You felt the anger about the babysitter, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so why did it vanish with regards to you?
	I don't know.
	Like...
	I don't know.
	Seems like that's how my life has been with my dad.
	It's just I'm not there.
	Okay.
	So that's you.
	I mean, you can just choose to not be there and then your wife will probably leave you and take the kids.
	Or at least half the time.
	And then you'll get to hang out with your dad and talk about the fucking weather.
	And that will be your life.
	And he'll be around for another 20 years.
	So maybe in your mid to late 50s, he'll get sick and then you'll move in with him and you'll take care of him and you wipe his ass while he yells at you and that will be your life.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, we're not doing that.
	But you are doing that because you're choosing your abusive father over your wife.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, so he's got to go.
	See, again, you say all this stuff with no feeling.
	I mean, I get the anger.
	See, here's the thing.
	You're really angry.
	But you deny your feelings so that everyone else gets stuck with your anger, right?
	Okay.
	You just did it again.
	All right.
	All right.
	Because you're setting up situations which are inevitably frustrating for other people.
	Thank you.
	It's like, I'm drowning!
	I'm drowning!
	Help me!
	And then, you know, people swim out with a life buoy and you just keep pushing it away.
	You're calling me up asking for help, right?
	Yeah.
	And you are refusing to let your feelings show.
	It's like you go to the doctor and you say, man, it really hurts.
	And he says, where?
	So I'm not going to tell you that.
	Does it hurt here?
	I'm not going to tell you.
	Does it hurt here?
	I'm not going to tell you.
	What's the doctor going to do?
	You can't do anything.
	Well, you can't do anything, right?
	Yeah.
	So, the helplessness you feel with your father, you are selfishly reproducing in others.
	Your wife feels helpless, doesn't she?
	Yeah.
	She can't connect with you.
	She can't reach you.
	She can't, right?
	Was her father emotionally distant?
	Is that her pattern?
	Her father was a lot more aggressive than mine.
	That's not what I asked, bro.
	What did I ask?
	Is her father emotionally distant?
	Yes.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Okay.
	So you're torturing her.
	Because you are reproducing in your wife The same trauma that her father did.
	This is why she won't sleep with you, because you remind her too much of her dad, and that would feel kind of incestuous.
	I'm not saying you're as aggressive as her father, of course, right?
	But in terms of emotional unavailability, yeah.
	So you know that one of the biggest things that hurt your wife was the emotional unavailability of her father.
	And I'm not saying that you're the same as her father, but what I'm saying is that emotional unavailability is very difficult, in particular for women, because they feel unsafe.
	Because women, relative to men, are small, dependent, and weak physically, right?
	Yeah.
	And so what shields them from danger is the man's emotional connection and empathy with them, right?
	No, don't.
	Do you follow?
	Yes, I follow.
	Okay.
	So if you're emotionally distant, she's not safe.
	Okay.
	I never thought about that.
	Because what has a woman feel safe is the man's empathy.
	Empathy is security.
	Empathy is safety.
	Because people don't empathize with you.
	Then they don't see you as human like them.
	They don't have the same level of regard for your feelings as they do for their own feelings, right?
	Yeah.
	So, your father-in-law's or your wife's husband's, sorry, your wife's father's emotional distance was dangerous to her.
	So, it's traumatic for her to be around an emotionally distant guy.
	Now, she was drawn to that earlier on, but she's outgrown that.
	She's denormalized it, right?
	Yeah, I'm just, you're pushing me back.
	Well, you're just, you're hitting the buttons that hurt her the most.
	Yeah.
	And you claim to love her?
	I don't, I don't understand what you mean.
	Because you said in your meme, oh, I love her so much, she's so wonderful, right?
	Yeah.
	But you know that her father was emotionally distant and you're doing the same thing.
	Thank you.
	Like, I don't know.
	I don't understand how it's compatible with love.
	Have you been aggressive with your wife?
	No.
	Never?
	Never.
	I mean, there's been times where we've had an argument.
	Well, it's fine.
	But you're passive-aggressive with her?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Well.
	I mean, it seems like you just get a sleepwalk into disaster.
	Because you just don't seem to have any feelings about anything in your life.
	I've already asked you to share your feelings.
	You're not sharing your feelings.
	So, I don't know what to do.
	I mean, honestly, I'm out of options.
	I mean, honestly, I'm out of options.
	That's the same thing she said to me.
	Yeah.
	Well, I guess that's two people.
	So...
	You don't want to share your feelings.
	Okay.
	I can't make you share your feelings.
	But that's kind of the prerequisite for the conversation, right?
	Because I can't guide what I'm doing if I'm just getting these mechanical empty responses.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I can't, right?
	That's like a doctor trying to figure out what's wrong with you when you won't tell them what hurts or doesn't.
	I've got this really strong attachment to my father, obviously.
	But I feel like he can be some kind of mentor or a decent guy, but I know deep down that he's not...
	I don't know if it's just like some want or some Great role model or what?
	I'm pissed off that he's not.
	Is that an abstract description or an actual feeling?
	The pissed off bit?
	No, my father, the mentor, the attachment, the blah, blah, blah.
	Oh, it's an actual feeling.
	I really...
	Okay, what is the feeling?
	Disappointment.
	Thank you.
	Disappointment.
	Okay.
	That he's not a mentor?
	Yeah, that he's the kind of narcissist that he is.
	Okay, disappointment.
	What else?
	What else?
	Thank you.
	Some anger for...
	the way he's he purports himself as a great guy you Thank you.
	I mean, I don't think you get it, frankly.
	I don't mean to be insulting, and I'm not trying to put you down.
	I don't think you get it.
	How long have you been dating?
	The woman who's now your wife.
	How long have you been romantically involved for?
	You said college, right?
	Yeah, that's close to 20 years.
	Okay.
	And you've been married seven, right?
	So you were together like 10, 13 years before you got married?
	2011 or 13 or somewhere there.
	That's when you got together.
	Yeah, I guess, yeah, we've known each other a little longer than that.
	I'm sorry, I thought you said you got together in college.
	Um...
	Thank you.
	Yeah, we kind of knew each other a little before, but we didn't actually get together until college.
	Early, middle, late college?
	Middle.
	Okay.
	And how old were you then?
	20s.
	I know you're in your 20s.
	That's 10 years, man.
	Probably 24, 25. Oh, so you didn't go straight to college from high school?
	No, there was a couple of years, I think, where I was working with my dad.
	Okay.
	So, your dad knew that you were together with your woman when he was working you.
	Or insisting or expecting you to work these sort of 10, 12, 14 hour days?
	Yeah.
	Did he think that was good or bad for your relationship?
	I don't think he cared.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Yeah, because he was always encouraging us getting, like me and my brother, getting the work done at all costs.
	He never once talked to me about my relationship with my wife.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Is he retiring?
	Probably not.
	Right.
	Okay.
	I don't think he makes enough money to consider that.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, the reason I'm saying is that he kind of exploited you for many, many years, right?
	Yes.
	And then he...
	Reabsorbed the 40% of the company without mentioning a thing, and he moved you from hourly to salary, and thus paying you less, right?
	Did you ever work out how much you were getting paid per hour?
	I did at one point, and it wasn't hardly anything.
	What were you getting paid per hour at the worst point?
	It had to have been less than $10 an hour.
	Right.
	So you're getting paid $9 and change by your father.
	So you got kind of ripped off by your father.
	Now, of course, you could say, oh, yes, but I was an adult.
	It's like, but he's your father.
	Your father's supposed to look out for you.
	He's supposed to bring you along.
	He's supposed to build you up.
	He's supposed to guide you.
	He's supposed to not rip you off, not exploit you.
	Like a fucking crypt keeper vampire.
	Like a fucking crypt keeper.
	I'd want to kill him.
	I'm getting there.
	No, and I'm not saying, obviously, I'm not saying do anything violent.
	Obviously, you know that, right?
	You know that.
	I'm just saying, I mean, I'd be murderous.
	I'd be enraged.
	I'm getting irate about it, yeah.
	Okay.
	Because that's your protection.
	Anger happens when we give up on our delusions of virtue.
	Anger happens when we finally accept that approval was only dangled in front of us in order to exploit us.
	Like the fish saying, hey, free meal!
	It's like a hook.
	Your father dangles approval, he dangles acceptance just to get you to run on the treadmill.
	And make him money, and he doesn't care that it fucks up your marriage, and he doesn't care that it fucks up your relationship with your kids, and he doesn't care that it fucks you up.
	He just wants what he wants, in my opinion.
	And you can either get angry about that, which is going to give you some protection, going to give you some boundaries, or not.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	Your son gets a job, and a guy works him half to death, promising him a share in the company, and then fires him and gives him nothing.
	What do you think?
	I'd be pissed for him.
	Right.
	Would you go down and say, give my son what you promised him?
	Yeah, definitely.
	Or I'll see you in court.
	I'd do anything I could to get that back for him.
	Right.
	Again, you cannot protect your son any more than you protect yourself.
	You see, I tell you why.
	Because your son is looking at you every day.
	Looking you up and down.
	You know, kids, man, with their x-rays, eyes, they know everything about you.
	Your son is looking at you and your daughter is looking at you, scanning you, left, right, up and down.
	Star Trek shit.
	They're scanning you.
	How is your son and your daughter going to grow up to protect themselves if you won't protect yourself?
	It's like expecting them to learn Japanese when you don't speak a fucking word of it.
	It's not about you!
	The strength comes out of your devotion to your children.
	They're the ones who need you to stand the fuck up!
	It's about them, and I don't understand why you're cucking out at your children's expense.
	Your children need to see a mother and father in love with each other.
	And you're fucking that up!
	And I don't understand why you have this permission to have children and then model all this terrible stuff.
	No emotions.
	No emotional availability.
	No romance with your wife.
	Not listening.
	You see, your father's selfishness is reproducing in you.
	You need to do what's right for your children.
	They're not here by choice.
	They didn't choose to be born, and they sure as shit didn't choose you as a father any more than my daughter chose me as a father.
	I need you to get your head out of your ass and do what's right and best for your children, because it's not about what you want or don't want or what you think about with regards to your father.
	Well, he might be a good mentor.
	Well, I don't want to see the bad.
	I don't want to do this.
	Fuck that!
	It's not about what you want.
	You got married by choice.
	You became a father by choice.
	It is no longer about what you want.
	And your fantasies about your father or anything like that.
	It's about what is objectively best for your children.
	Here's what you're doing.
	Destroying your marriage.
	Showing them a loveless, sexless, alienated marriage.
	Your wife, wanting to leave, is that best for your children?
	Hell no.
	Is you not having the basic self-protection of anger at having been exploited?
	Is that good for your children?
	Is that healthy for your children?
	No.
	So what are you doing?
	Why is this all about you?
	You haven't mentioned whether it's good or bad for your children.
	We talked a little bit about your wife.
	Not once.
	I don't understand.
	Everything you do, you're imprinting on your children.
	You think this spaced out, don't feel, don't express, is that good for your children?
	You've not mentioned your children once.
	I don't understand it.
	I mean, genuinely don't.
	You haven't said, well, geez, I've got to fix my marriage for my kids.
	Well, gee, I've got to express myself to my kids.
	Well, gee, I've got to set boundaries with my father because it's of my kids.
	Like, there's nothing.
	But then when I give you this theoretical scenario of the bad babysitter, you're like, oh, I protect them.
	Oh, yeah.
	I'd be really mad.
	You see, you think it's still all about you.
	Well, I don't want to do this with my dad, and I feel this with my dad, and I have this hope for my dad.
	It's like, my God, man, it's not about you.
	It's about what's best for your children.
	You do what's best for your children.
	I mean, do I have this?
	I mean, maybe we have different parenting philosophies.
	But do you disagree that you have to do what's best for your children?
	No, I think you're spot on.
	So...
	Why are you being this self-indulgent and making it all about you and your feelings about your father and your history and this and that and the other?
	You do what's best for your children because you chose to become a father.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	And your wife, you've got to fix things with your wife, which means listen to her.
	Does she know more about self-knowledge than you do?
	Absolutely.
	So you listen to her.
	In the same way that in the areas where you have greater knowledge, she's going to listen to you.
	So you listen to her.
	But you've got this, I don't, I get it.
	It's like this weird, stubborn, alienated pride that you just don't have to bow to anyone.
	You don't have to do what's best for anyone.
	It could just be all about you.
	Is that your dad?
	I'm trying to understand that.
	Like, where is this from?
	I don't know if that's my dad, but that's something I recognized in myself some time ago.
	I don't know how long ago.
	But I do find it very hard to accept help from people and just admit that I'm having problems.
	Yeah, that's, sorry, that's just a fortune cookie cliche.
	I'm not, I haven't mentioned anything about you accepting help from people.
	I'm talking about you not being prideful and vain.
	Your wife says, your dad's a bad guy.
	You don't say, oh, you're wrong, you're exaggerating, he's fine.
	That's selfish.
	What do you say?
	You say, tell me more.
	What do you think?
	What do you see?
	What do you notice?
	Tell me more.
	Help me understand your perspective.
	Doesn't mean she's right.
	But you don't just dismiss what...
	If someone loves you and you claim to love them, how dare you just dismiss what they say?
	Thank you.
	I'm trying to fight to get you to recognize the foundational existence and needs of those around you that you've chosen to have in your life and especially those like your children who did not choose to be in your life.
	I'm trying to get you to hook into what other people need.
	This is why you can't confront your father.
	Because if you say to your father, here's what I need, and you must work to provide it, then you will Really, psychologically, be forced to recognize the needs of your wife and children and how you've denied them.
	Is that a fair statement?
	That's why you can't confront him.
	Because if you confront him and you say to him, Dad, you've got to take my needs into account, you've got to give me the respect of listening to what I need, you'll have to start listening to your wife and your kids more.
	It's not about him and him behaving better.
	It's about you and you behaving with more empathy.
	To confront your father and his self-absorption would be to confront yourself and your self-absorption.
	That's what you don't want to do.
	I'm using fun as an excuse.
	I'm sorry?
	I'm using my dad as an excuse not to.
	Better myself.
	Well, yeah, you can't confront him because you're doing this.
	I was trying to figure out, like, when we can't confront wrongdoers, it's because we feel that we've done wrong.
	And I was sort of casting about, okay, were you aggressive?
	But it is not a motivation of you to say, I have to do what's best for my kids.
	I have to do what's best for my marriage.
	The angry will.
	The angry will.
	I think that's at the core.
	The angry will.
	Okay, so what is your narrative about other people having needs of you?
	Is it like, I'm annoyed, I'm angry, how dare they?
	I've got to do things my way.
	What is your narrative about other people's needs of you?
	How do you dismiss them?
	On what grounds?
	What is the story that you have about other people having needs from you?
	and subjugating yourself to their needs?
	Um...
	Thank you.
	If it's not something that I'm directly interested in, I think I tend to brush it off.
	Okay, that's the weak-ass excuse for an explanation I've ever heard.
	Okay, let's try that again.
	Right?
	Let's try that again.
	You must have a narrative.
	Okay.
	Was your wife right about your dad?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	If you had listened to your wife and accepted what she said about your dad, what's the negative in that?
	What's the negative in just saying, you know what?
	You're right.
	Like, what pisses you off about that?
	Or what's a negative experience about that?
	surrendering your will to the wisdom of another.
	Somewhere between being angry that I couldn't see it myself.
	No, no, no, it's not that.
	No, because if you're angry you can't see it yourself, you'd be even more grateful that somebody else pointed it out.
	If you're about to merge into a lane and the highway and your wife says, no, no, there's somebody in the blind spot, would you be like, oh, I'm so mad?
	You'd be grateful.
	If you're walking at night and there's an open manhole cover and your wife says, whoa, whoa, stop, you're going to fall into the manhole cover, would you be mad?
	You'd be grateful.
	Thank you.
	Right?
	I was just thinking, it seems like that she's, my wife is telling me, or is taking my father away from me.
	Thank you, Sporgan.
	Nope, it's not that either.
	It's not that either.
	Because she's not, and you're not crazy.
	She's not taking your father away from you.
	That's like saying, well, you know, my wife is taking the car crash away from me.
	My wife is taking falling the manhole cover away from me.
	Your father's treating you badly.
	I assume she's just saying, be honest with him.
	Go and talk to him.
	She's not taking him away.
	She's telling you to go be honest with him.
	Now, you can't take a relationship away from someone by saying, go be honest with the person, can you?
	It's not a relationship if you're not even honest in the first place.
	So it's not that.
	I mean, do you roughly agree?
	Like, you can't...
	If someone tells you, go be honest with your father, is that taking away your father?
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Sorry, that was a real question.
	No, I'm sorry.
	I did respond.
	I would not be taking away my father.
	Okay, so I need to get past these bullshit excuses.
	What is the angry will?
	Your wife says...
	I think your father's been treating you pretty badly.
	You need to go be honest with him.
	Right?
	What's your angry will if you say, you're right.
	I will go do that.
	What is the negative experience of that?
	What is wrong about that for you?
	What is wrong about that for you?
	I think just having me.
	I'm having a tough time hearing you.
	There's a kind of weird buzzing.
	I don't know if you're...
	Math is getting further away from the microphone, but I'm really struggling to hear you.
	I think it's just trying to go and confront my dad and his narcissism.
	Thank you.
	That's not it.
	I'm sure your wife would come with you, so you wouldn't have to do it alone, right?
	I mean, if you asked her to, she would, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Because the reason I'm saying this is that I'm trying to give you some coaching and you're fighting me tooth and nail.
	Like, you do not like surrendering yourself to other people's authority.
	You hate it.
	Even the authority or the needs of your children, because I asked you if what you're doing is good for your children, you said no, but you won't change it.
	You hate, hate, hate surrendering yourself to what other people need and want.
	I suspect that comes from your mother and your father.
	I don't know.
	Are you Christian?
	Not practicing.
	Okay.
	Do you play any competitive sports?
	No, not currently.
	Do you work out on any regular basis?
	No.
	So, what do you discipline your will according to?
	What do you do that you don't want to do to practice self-discipline?
	What do you do that involves self-discipline?
	What do you do that involves self-discipline?
	Nowadays, it's just...
	Okay, but you're a workaholic, so that's not self-discipline, right?
	Again, you need to get closer to the mic if you don't mind.
	So, what do you do that is subjugating your will to something or someone else?
	Your wife says, call Steph.
	You resist for months, right?
	Your wife has said, go to therapy.
	You resist for months.
	Your wife said, had an honest conversation.
	With your father, you've resisted for years.
	So, and I say this with sympathy.
	I say this with sympathy.
	I really do.
	What is the hell that you have in your heart and mind about subjugating yourself to the will of another?
	This, like, fierce...
	Can't tell me what to do.
	Won't tell me what to do.
	I will not subjugate myself.
	To you.
	This angry will.
	There's something that's going on with that.
	Thank you.
	That just reminded me that all these activities and things that my parents used to put me through, most of the time I didn't want to do any of them.
	They just forced it upon me.
	Okay, so...
	Your parents forced you to do all of these things and activities that you didn't want to do.
	And I assume that there was no particular space for you to say, I don't want to do this stuff.
	No, it was just kind of too bad.
	Okay, why did your parents, why did they force you to do these things?
	What was their purpose, goal or benefit?
	What was their purpose, goal or benefit?
	I suspect that they didn't have to take care of me while I was doing these things.
	Okay.
	So your needs to your parents would be inconveniences to be shouted down.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	So your parents would view your preferences that differ from their own preferences as massive negatives.
	That they would never acquiesce to.
	Yeah, sounds about right.
	Okay.
	So, have you inherited that?
	That other people's needs and preferences, you'll be goddamned if you'll surrender to.
	Because your parents never surrendered to any of yours.
	Yeah, that sounds like that's where I got it.
	Okay.
	Okay, so...
	How did things play out when your parents were like that?
	How did the family dynamic play out over time?
	in terms of your relationship with them?
	Um...
	Thank you.
	Um...
	Well, they, uh...
	This kind of...
	I had to end up going with the flow, so I'd go do these things, and I guess I kind of grew distant and just kind of complicit with whatever my parents needed.
	Okay, so you just kind of self-erased and went with the flow, but you weren't close to them, and I don't think you particularly loved or respected them because...
	They did not love and respect you, because when you love and respect people, you want to know what they think and feel, and you want to negotiate to accommodate it, right?
	Okay?
	So, how are things going to play out with your wife and your kids if you do the same shit your parents did?
	It's going to play out very poorly.
	Yeah, it's going to go very badly, right?
	So the angry will is, if I don't get my way, if I don't do what I want, if I have to accommodate other people, I lose.
	Right?
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Well, but the way you genuinely lose in life is through selfishness, through only wanting your way, your preferences, not listening to people, gaslighting, poo-pooing, eye-rolling, dismissing, all of that kind of stuff.
	And that's how you really lose in life, right?
	Yeah, I mean, it's basically the opposite of what...
	Yeah, you think you're going to get your way, but you end up with nothing.
	Thank you.
	And it feels there's something, it's like an anger or a rage.
	To surrender to another's needs is to say, we're equal.
	I have needs, I want them to satisfy.
	They also have needs they want me to satisfy.
	Let's find a way to meet in the middle or get both our needs satisfied or something like that, right?
	Yeah.
	Did that show up in your sex life, like you're searching for your own pleasure and good luck to your wife?
	No, I generally gave her better than I was, or tried to give her better than I was getting.
	Okay.
	So, surrendering to somebody else's will is in...
	I'm not calling you this sort of fundamentally selfish person, just so you know, right?
	And I'm not calling you a narcissist.
	Lord knows I'm not a psychological professional.
	I'm not a professional of any kind.
	I'm just using these terms, right?
	But the narcissist views all impositions upon his will as an attack and an insult and a threat to his dominance.
	It's like the male guerrilla guy.
	Right.
	And so, if you view your wife saying, You need to subjugate your perceptions to
	my perceptions.
	Now, subjugate doesn't mean that you're a slave to her.
	That's why I said, and when she says, I think your father's got some bad elements, what I said, the healthy statement is not, well, you're right, I'm going to dump him because that's just reactive.
	It's tell me more.
	Right?
	Tell me more about your thoughts.
	Tell me more about your feelings.
	Tell me more about your perceptions.
	What have you noticed, right?
	So that you can truly understand your wife's perspective.
	Not to just agree with people.
	Right?
	Because I think you view disagreements as like two pieces of paper sliding together.
	One has to go on top, one has to go below.
	One wins, one loses.
	One gets their way, the other one gets thwarted.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Actually, that seemed pretty spot on.
	Right.
	Win-lose, win-lose, win-lose, right?
	Yeah.
	And this was the case when you quit.
	Your job with your dad, right?
	You've been exploited for 10 years, in my view, which doesn't make you weak.
	It just makes you a child.
	It makes you a son, right?
	Not a child, but the child of your father.
	Obviously, you were like a child, but it makes you your father's son, which means you're easy to exploit, right?
	So, when you quit, you couldn't negotiate an exit.
	You just got burned out and left.
	There was no negotiation there, right?
	No, like, well, what about the 40% or blah, blah, blah, back pay if you don't want to give me the 40% because I worked all these extra hours, right?
	So there's no way to negotiate with your father.
	That's fair to say, I think, is it?
	Yeah.
	And was there any way to negotiate with your mother?
	Not really, because she would just refer me back to dad.
	Okay.
	Your dad, you could make a plea.
	Maybe he'd say yes or maybe he would say no.
	I assume he said no a lot.
	But there's no negotiation, right?
	Right.
	So you don't know how to negotiate.
	You only know how to dominate or be subjugated.
	There's no win-win in your vocabulary.
	And that's not your fault.
	I mean, it's kind of your fault now that you're in your late 30s, but it's certainly not your fault growing up.
	Does that make sense?
	Absolutely.
	So you lack the language of negotiation.
	So when your wife says, I think your father's kind of negative, right?
	I think he's got bad elements, or maybe he's a bad dude or whatever, right?
	I'm obviously paraphrasing.
	So then what happens is, because you don't negotiate, negotiation is, well, tell me what you think, and then you go and talk to your dad.
	That's negotiating, right?
	So what you do is you say, okay, all right, let me figure this one out.
	So, it has to be win-lose, because there's no such thing as win-win, like in your mind, right?
	It has to be win-lose.
	So, okay, how does this work?
	Okay.
	Who can inflict more suffering on me?
	My wife or my father?
	That's what happens in your unconscious.
	Who's more reasonable?
	My wife or my father?
	Who's more aggressive?
	My wife or my father?
	Who's going to fuck me up more?
	My wife or my father?
	Now, what's the answer to that?
	Who's going to do you more harm in a conflict between your wife's perceptions of your father being bad and your father's self-perceptions of wanting to be good, right?
	If you bring your wife's concerns to your father, right?
	Oh, let me put it to you.
	Sorry, I'm explaining this badly.
	I apologize.
	Let me just reset and try that again.
	Is it more risky to you emotionally?
	Confront my father.
	Right.
	So you simply look at win-lose.
	Well, if my wife is pushing me to confront my father, well, I can handle my wife.
	I can kind of gaslight her and she's not going to get real aggressive and attack me or manipulate me.
	She doesn't have the old historical foggy hammer of paternalism to hit me with, right?
	So my father can inflict more negatives on me than my wife, so I'll just kind of gaslight my wife and not confront my father.
	And that's going to be minimum pain.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, kind of like my wife is collateral damage.
	Well, that could be managed, right?
	That could be managed.
	It's kind of like you only have one bullet, right?
	And there's two animals coming at you.
	One is a chihuahua and one is a wolf.
	Well, who are you going to use your bullet on?
	The wolf, of course.
	The wolf, yeah, because the wolf can do you more damage.
	Right?
	So, you appease your father because he's more aggressive than your wife.
	So, her needs have to get sacrificed because you're only approaching this from a win-lose perspective for yourself.
	Right?
	Now, appeasing my wife, telling her she's wrong, she's exaggerating, putting her off.
	She's a pretty reasonable person.
	She's bound up in her own.
	Family situation.
	She's confronting her parents.
	She might do food.
	So she's kind of bound up and all of that.
	She's kind of busy, right?
	So it's like a minus two or a minus three to appease her, right?
	But if I confront my dad, that's a minus ten, right?
	Yeah.
	So it's like someone would say, well, I can give you two trades, right?
	Two trades in your stock portfolio.
	One is going to make you $3,000.
	One is going to make you $10,000.
	Which one do you want?
	Which one is going to make you more?
	Right.
	And in the same way, your stockbroker calls you up and says, okay, man, something's happened in your account.
	I can sell this stock.
	You're going to lose $2,500.
	Or I can sell this stock.
	The effects are going to be the same.
	I can sell this stock.
	You're going to lose $2,500.
	Or I can sell this stock.
	You're going to lose $10,000.
	Which do you choose?
	The lesser, too.
	Right.
	So, because you don't know negotiation, you simply do cost-benefit analysis.
	And then that means that you end up kind of a slave to whoever's willing to inflict more damage on you.
	Like, you don't have the free will, in a sense, to shoot the chihuahua.
	You have to shoot the wolf.
	You don't have the free will to only lose $2,500 because you don't want to lose $10,000.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	And in the same way, the negative effects of this mindset is not evident in your children yet, and they can't negotiate for themselves yet because they're two and four, right?
	So this is why you didn't talk about your kids, because they're not a factor in the win-lose equation.
	Now, your wife is trying to get you to change your behavior, and all she knows how to do, because all you really listen to is escalation.
	So, deep down, she's sensing, okay, well, his father can inflict more damage on him than I can, and he's not listening to reason, so the only way I get him to listen to me is to escalate, right?
	No sex, I'm going to leave you, whatever she's doing, right?
	Right.
	But it hasn't made you, like, maybe your wife got you to a minus six, a minus seven, but still ain't a minus ten, right?
	So, that's not as big a deal, right?
	So when you negotiate, you're left with a kind of hedonistic calculus.
	Right?
	You worked for your dad because it was more comfortable to work for your dad until you were just completely burned out and working for your dad became a minus 10 and then you left.
	Is that somewhat accurate?
	Yeah.
	Spot on.
	And then, all right, so you're just reactive.
	You're reacting to negative pressure.
	And it's a pleasure-pain principle.
	Your dad can inflict more pain, your wife can't, so you conform to your dad.
	Your kids can't really inflict any pain on you at all because they're just little kids, they're toddlers, so they're not really a consideration, right?
	Now, the opposite of that is conscience, empathy, and negotiation.
	The conscience is...
	Well, my wife is someone who treats me well, so I owe her more.
	As opposed to, she treats me well, so I have to take her less into consideration.
	It's sort of like you go to the doctor, one of your fingers is hurting like hell, you want the doctor just to look at that finger, you don't care about the other fingers, they're fine, right?
	Yeah.
	Just like all backwards on the way I'm handling this.
	Well, but the hedonism of Selfish pleasure praying calculation means that the people who treat you the best get treated the worst, and the people who treat you the worst get treated the best.
	It's sort of like a friend who's asking you for a hundred bucks to lend him, but there's another guy with a gun to your ribs saying, give me the hundred bucks or I'll shoot you.
	Give your hundred bucks to the guy.
	Who's the robber, right?
	So the guy who's treating you the worst gets the money.
	The guy who's your friend doesn't, right?
	The guy who's your friend doesn't, right?
	And the only way to fight that is to say I have these principles called people who treat me well should get positive consideration, right?
	Yeah.
	And people who treat me badly should get negative consideration because of principles, right?
	I should have empathy for the people who are treating me with the most empathy, which is your wife, not your father.
	I should return empathy to empathy and I should return coldness to coldness.
	Now, that's uncomfortable, but it's principled.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	You don't want to be the squeaky wheel gets the grease kind of guy because that just means that you are rewarding the bad people and you are punishing the good people.
	But in order to solve this with your wife, obviously, you know, apologies and all of that are necessary, but you're going to have to figure out how to negotiate with people, and the way you negotiate with people is you listen to them.
	Doesn't mean you have to agree with them, of course, right?
	But you've got to listen.
	As opposed to just react based upon what is the most What causes the least discomfort in the moment?
	And your wife, being a reasonable person, gets the short end of the stick, and your father, being an aggressive, selfish person, gets compliance from you.
	And so, when you say to someone, you should surrender your will, To the arguments of a loved one, that reverses this whole pleasure-pain principle.
	Do you know what I mean?
	Not really.
	Well, so if you have the pleasure-pain principle and say, well, my father, ignoring my wife, criticizing my father is only a minus three, but if I go and confront my father, that's a minus ten, right?
	Okay.
	So that's your pleasure-pain principle, and so that's how you act, right?
	But if I say, You should surrender your angry will, because the angry will is, look, why would you want me to suffer a minus 10 when I can just suffer a minus 3?
	The reason why you get angry is deep down you're thinking to your wife, why do you want me to get hurt?
	Why do you want me to suffer a minus 10?
	It feels like an assault, like an attack, like she's tasering your nuts or something, right?
	Although you might enjoy it after two years, right?
	Your angry will is, why are you forcing me to do something that's so horrible and unpleasant as confront my father?
	How dare you?
	How dare you cause me to suffer in this way?
	It feels like an assault.
	It feels like an attack.
	It feels like she's pushing you towards a cliff edge and you fight back, right?
	Yeah.
	Don't push me.
	Into this kind of suffering.
	That's mean.
	And you're angry at her.
	That's the angry will, right?
	Okay, yeah.
	Which is kind of like if you're a glutton for food and a dietician comes along, it's like, how dare you make me this uncomfortable?
	How dare you make me starve?
	And you get angry.
	At the person who is withholding things from you and causing you to suffer.
	And your wife saying, I think you should not comply with your father, but be honest with him.
	She is pushing you to a state of suffering and you're angry at her.
	But you can't be direct about it because then the whole scam falls apart.
	And she says, no, no, I'm just asking you to be honest.
	And I have treated you well and I love you and I have children with you, so I should get better consideration than your arsehole father who exploited you.
	You can't even be direct about the resentment.
	And so, you're angry at having been pushed to a cliff edge, but you can't be honest about it because that reveals that you treat those around you the worst who treat you the best.
	Right?
	So, you're angry, you're cornered, you can't express anything, so what happens?
	You just disconnect your emotions.
	Because you can't be honest about anything, and you can't be honest with your father, and you can't be honest with your wife.
	Because you can't say to your wife, oh no, my father's way more scary than you are, so I'm just going to do what he wants.
	Why can't you say that to your wife?
	Why can't you say that to your wife?
	Why won't you say that to your wife?
	I mean, I wouldn't.
	Why wouldn't someone say, oh no.
	Listen, I get that you're criticizing my dad, but you're more reasonable and nice, and he's way more scary, so I'm just going to conform to him and tell you that you're wrong.
	Like, why couldn't you say that to her?
	Well, she'd lose all her respect and it would be totally gross, right?
	And you'd be saying, well, the only way, honey, the only way you're going to get me to do what you want is to be more scary than my dad, and good luck with that.
	So that's why your emotions are disconnected.
	Because you're angry at your dad, you're angry at your wife, you're angry at your dad because he's scary, and you're angry at your wife because she's pushing you to confront your dad.
	So you're angry, but you can't be honest.
	You then have to have all of these abstract, lofty lectures to your wife.
	Oh, you're overreacting.
	No, he's not that bad.
	There's a good side to him.
	He's a mentor.
	He helped me with this.
	He got me this job.
	Whatever, right?
	But you can't just be honest and say, honey, you don't scare the shit out of me.
	He does.
	So I'm just going to conform to him.
	Thank you.
	And she'll never get her way because she's never going to be more scary than your dad.
	Right?
	Yeah, she just wants to help me, not hurt me.
	So, yeah, her interests go by the wayside.
	And so, the reason your emotions are disconnected is you cannot get a positive outcome.
	Lying to your wife, and I'm not saying you're doing this consciously, right?
	But lying to your wife and gaslighting her, that's not a positive outcome.
	Conforming to your father, that's not a positive outcome.
	So, when all of your emotions lead to someplace negative, It's like, you know, if you're going to have surgery or you're going to have a tooth drilled out, you want the painkillers, right?
	Yeah.
	Because the pain isn't going to serve you any good.
	It's like, why would you want that, right?
	Right.
	If you've got a headache, you just pop an Advil or an aspirin or whatever, right?
	It's what most people do.
	So what's the point of having a headache?
	So when none of your emotions can lead you to a positive outcome, Well, guess what?
	You just numb them.
	You just disconnect.
	Thanks.
	Thanks.
	Thank you.
	And that's where hedonism leads to.
	You're no longer chasing the high, you're just avoiding the low.
	But I mean, you can't feel good about appeasing people Your nasty father at the expense of your loving wife.
	Can you?
	No.
	That's not very noble or, you know, and listen, but listen, brother, I'm not perfect this way either.
	I've done it.
	I'm sure I'll do it again.
	So I'm not coming from some lofty place of, well, I can't believe you mere mortals do this.
	Like, I do this too.
	Please understand.
	I am not, I'm down here in the trenches with you.
	Right?
	So we're just trying to fight this one through as we all are.
	Because there are scary people in this world and we have an urge to conform to them and there are people who treat us well and we tend to, you know, like if we have two people we owe money to, one of them is a friend and another one is a loan shark who's going to break our knees, who do we pay first?
	Who's going to break your knees?
	Yeah, of course, right?
	So this is part of life as a whole.
	So I hope you're not feeling like singled out.
	I'm with you down here in the trenches fighting this fight, which is to treat the people who treat us well better than the people who scare the shit out of us.
	It's kind of what we got to do.
	We know that, right?
	It may not be as clear before as it is now, but that's what we have to really work to do, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	So, with that clarity, Hopefully.
	Does it make sense why you're disconnected from your emotions?
	Yeah, I've always wondered why I've just been so flat, and it makes a lot of sense.
	Right.
	And this is why your wife can't connect with you, because she's not willing to make you suffer, so you can't comply with her.
	Now, she's on strike.
	She's protesting, right?
	But that's a whole lot different, right, than the kind of industrial sabotage that your dad's probably capable of.
	So, yeah, I think that's the major stuff that I wanted to get across.
	But yeah, I think you could read books on negotiation.
	I think Herb Cohen wrote a book that I read as a teenager.
	You can negotiate anything, but...
	You've just got to listen, work for the win-win, and have the moral standards that people who treat you well should get your primary consideration.
	And that goes against our animal instincts.
	All right, yeah, I mean, it sounds doable.
	I think I can do that.
	All right.
	Well, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Sure.
	I appreciate that.
	And thank you for your time tonight.
	It was a great conversation.
	Yeah, thank you for really laying it out there for me and making it something I can understand.
	Good stuff, man.
	Keep me posted.
	I appreciate the convo.
	Have a good night.
	All right, you too, Seth.
	Go talk to your wife.
	Bye.

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