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April 24, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:01:36

I Haven't Spoken With My Daughter for SIX YEARS! Freedomain Call In

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	Hello? Hey, all right.
	I think we're all set.
	Okay. Appreciate that.
	So, yeah, just if you can remember to stay off names and places, I'm all ears.
	Lay it on me.
	How can I best help?
	It's the first time I've ever told anybody my problems.
	I'm a little nervous, but let's see where to even begin.
	I got...
	Got seven kids.
	My oldest was with my ex-wife.
	All the rest are with my present wife.
	We've been married for like 35 years now.
	The main issue that I wrote to you about is my oldest daughter, my high school sweetheart and I. We ended up getting married after she got pregnant.
	I decided to do the right thing and marry her.
	We had a daughter.
	A little time went by.
	She ended up cheating on me.
	We ended up getting divorced.
	She ended up marrying the guy that she cheated on me with.
	Basically, that guy raised my daughter.
	I've seen her as often as I could.
	Anybody that's been through a divorce knows that you really can't have a relationship at that point.
	Especially because my daughter was so young.
	She was only like one year old.
	That was the only guy in the house that she ever knew.
	30 some years later, she ends up getting married.
	We go to the church.
	And she springs it on me literally right before she's to walk down the aisle that she wants him and I both to walk her down the aisle.
	Well, I absolutely refuse to do that.
	Sorry, you refuse to walk your daughter down the aisle with her stepfather?
	Exactly. Okay, and sorry, tell me a little bit about...
	What was the situation that you couldn't have a relationship with her?
	Did you not have shared custody or something like that?
	Well, I did have a relationship with her, but, you know, it was weekends.
	Every weekend I would get to see her where he was, you know, they got to eat dinner every night.
	He got to tuck her in every night.
	Well, maybe I should have explained this as well.
	They ended up moving.
	Quite a distance away from me.
	Not so far away that I couldn't see her every weekend, but it's not like we could see each other every day or...
	Sorry, how far away did she move?
	About two hours.
	And is...
	Sorry, I'm no lawyer, right?
	But I've heard sort of these kinds of stories.
	I don't know that...
	Is a mother allowed to move the child away?
	I mean, if you have shared custody?
	Is she allowed to move further away?
	This has been 30-some years ago.
	Maybe things have changed, and it's different from state to state.
	But I had to fight tooth and nail just to see her at all.
	And I had to hire a lawyer.
	Matter of fact, multiple lawyers.
	The first lawyer was no use at all.
	And I kept getting women judges that were total hostile to me, even though I was doing all the right things, paying child support.
	Attempting to visit her.
	It was a complete nightmare.
	I'm glad to be done with all that.
	I appreciate that.
	Okay, so she moved further away, so you got to see her weekends and you had to fight even for that.
	Is that right?
	Yes. And how much is your daughter aware of the roadblocks that her mother put up to you seeing her?
	Well, that's another issue that I really regret and try to warn other fathers in the same situation.
	Her entire life, I never bad-mouthed her mom or said anything and tried to keep everything.
	I mean, you just don't want the children in the middle of all this chaos.
	But obviously, my ex-wife...
	Said a lot of bad things about me.
	She didn't feel the same.
	And I've heard it from so many men that I've worked with or that I've met or dealing with the same scenario.
	I always felt, oh, eventually she'll be old enough and she'll realize.
	And, well, it didn't play out that way.
	And so I tried to warn other men, hey, don't do that because...
	It just didn't end well.
	Like I said, she loved this guy as her father.
	And I will say, he was good to her.
	I don't know.
	It's a mess.
	Sorry, you said you didn't want to badmouth her.
	Philosophically speaking, I'm not sure that telling the truth is badmouthing.
	Yeah, and...
	And I've been listening to you for a couple years, and had I had all this knowledge way back then, I wouldn't even have been with this girl or gotten her pregnant or done so many of the things.
	I mean, I was a stupid kid and made so many stupid mistakes, which...
	You know, after listening to you, I'm even more angry.
	That'll bring up a whole other subject of how society absolutely lied to me.
	I mean, for the longest, it was crazy because we never even had a single argument.
	For years, I couldn't figure out what went wrong and why we ended up getting a divorce and she cheated.
	Just society lies to you about everything and anything and just steered me in a completely wrong direction.
	Luckily, like I said, my present wife and all my kids, including my oldest daughter, she's great in so many ways, but her daughter definitely didn't raise her the way I would have.
	She should have talked to me about this before the wedding.
	As we're getting ready to go down the aisle, we should have hashed all that out ahead of time.
	Okay, so does your eldest daughter, does she know about the affair that her mother had?
	Yes. Okay, and when did she find out about that?
	Oh, I mean, it's been years that she's known this, but I wouldn't know exactly when.
	Do you know how she found out?
	To my ex's credit, she was honest with her about that.
	Okay, got it.
	Okay. All right, and...
	So tell me a little bit about the decision process of not walking her down the aisle.
	Is that one of the sort of central issues that you're wrestling with?
	Yeah, whether...
	I feel...
	That I was right.
	And it wasn't that I refused anything.
	I just told my daughter that I was not walking beside that man.
	He's not your father.
	Some of this stuff is so old.
	That brings up another issue.
	My ex had convinced my daughter to call him daddy for the longest time and me by my name.
	Instead of vice versa.
	I hate to use the word ultimatum, but I told her, I'll walk you down the aisle or he can walk you down the aisle.
	I've been the bigger, because everybody kept saying, I'll just be the bigger man and this and that.
	Of course, everybody, the pastor, her mom, everybody ganged up on me.
	I said, look, I've been the better man all these years.
	I've left the guy alone.
	Because initially I had beaten him up when all this first happened.
	Initially you what?
	Excuse me?
	You said you beat him up?
	What do you mean?
	When I first found out about the affair when we were still married and everything.
	Which I shouldn't have done.
	Like you physically beat him up?
	I'm not sure if you mean verbally or like you physically beat him up.
	No, I physically did.
	Because, well...
	I hate to get into the whole story, because I know your time's limited, but...
	No, no, listen, this is your call.
	Don't worry about my time if there's stuff that's important to talk about.
	You know, there's no story that's longer than the one that's missing important details, so it will make it shorter if the important details are in.
	Okay, well, they were working together, which I didn't even really want her to work.
	I wanted her to be a stay-at-home mom.
	And I was doing okay, but even as young as we were, because like I said, we were right out of high school, which is another thing that nobody prepared me for.
	Everybody told me, oh, girls don't want to get pregnant, and you shouldn't force yourself on them and everything.
	Well, she did want to get pregnant, and she did.
	Sorry, just to make sure I understand that phrase.
	Girls don't want to get pregnant, and you shouldn't force yourself on them.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	When I was growing up as a young man, this is what everybody had taught me, that girls don't really want to have sex and it's not right for you to try to put pressure on them and they surely don't want to get pregnant and this and that.
	Now, eventually, of course, once they're grown women and everything.
	Sorry, the phrase that's troubling me is force yourself on them.
	I understand why that might be a bit troubling if I don't know the context.
	Yeah, not rape, but you know, you're on a date and maybe you're young guys.
	Just, you know...
	Yeah, being a little pushy, maybe, yeah.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And so I always, you know, I always...
	I lived my life that way.
	It kind of caught me off guard.
	Not to be arrogant or anything, but I was kind of an attractive and popular guy when I was younger.
	I was just totally unprepared for women to be throwing themselves at me or wanting to get pregnant.
	She had told me...
	She was on birth control.
	The last thing I expected is that she was going to intentionally get pregnant when we were only 18 years old.
	But again, the way I was raised and what everybody told me, I did all the right things.
	I got married, moved her in.
	We got an apartment, or I got one, moved her in.
	So she wanted to, because we were both in college at the time.
	She was wanting to work and do this and that, and so she had this part-time job.
	While I was staying home taking care of our daughter, the guy that she was working with ended up having an affair.
	Initially, I was kind of suspicious of some things, and I had warned him.
	I said, I think something's going on, and I told him.
	If I find out this is what's going to happen, well, when I found out, I ended up losing my head, and I beat him up and went to jail for it.
	How long were you in jail for?
	It wasn't long.
	I was young, and I'd never been in any trouble at all.
	I think they just wanted to...
	They made me go to anger management and stuff, but I think they just wanted to make sure that they had set me a good example and straightened me out or whatever.
	Okay, all right.
	Okay, so I appreciate the background, and how can I best help you today?
	Well, I mean, I've just been thinking about this for years because as I've written to you, I call her constantly, you know, and I mean, I don't want to lose my relationship with my daughter,
	but she absolutely refuses.
	She hasn't taken a single call or text or email, nothing since the wedding.
	I'm sorry, how long ago was that?
	Oh, it's probably been six years, maybe more.
	It's been quite a while.
	And the longer the time goes on, I become more conflicted of, did I do the right thing?
	I mean, I stayed for the wedding.
	And I get it, because women go through so much trouble to do their makeup and hair, and she was in tears, and her makeup was running, and I felt horrible, but I just felt like...
	I'm sorry, sorry, sorry.
	You just need to know where we are in the story.
	Okay, so are you saying that on the wedding day, you said, I'm not walking you down the aisle, and then she cried and her makeup was ruined?
	Exactly. Oh, so did she think you were going to walk her down the aisle and then you didn't?
	Well, she was anticipating that I was basically that I was such a pushover that she could spring this on me at the last minute and that I'd just be fine with it and say, okay, and that I would walk down the aisle with this guy and I refused to do it.
	So she ended up crying, her makeup run.
	She said, I ruined her wedding.
	Everybody else did.
	And now here I am, all these years later, wondering if maybe I should have just...
	And the biggest point, what's done is done.
	I can't change that.
	But I've always felt like I really had nothing to apologize for, that she should have...
	Came to me ahead of time and said, this is what I want to do, and we should have had that discussion before the wedding.
	And even if it came to an argument and crying and all that happened, that should have happened before the wedding day, not at the wedding day.
	She was counting, and this is because this is the way she was raised.
	My ex raised her.
	They avoid everything.
	And just expect, and most of the men in their lives just cater to them, and they would just buckle in an instant.
	Yeah, I mean, and I think I had written to you.
	I don't really believe it's wrong to give somebody a false apology just to save the relationship, but that's where I'm at at this point.
	Even though I don't think I was wrong, or I'm second-guessing whether maybe I was.
	Maybe I was a horrible person for doing what I did.
	I don't know.
	Maybe I should apologize.
	I guess that's what she's waiting on.
	Maybe. I don't know.
	If I were to call and leave a message saying how horrible I was, then maybe she would call me back.
	Everything would be okay.
	I don't know.
	Okay. So, tell me...
	I don't know the answer.
	If there's any consolation, I don't know the answer.
	But tell me a little bit about your thought...
	Because you had a lot of thought process going on there, right?
	In terms of, like, should you or shouldn't you walk her down the aisle?
	And so, just help me sort of step through...
	Was this something you had thought about before the wedding?
	I hadn't thought about it at all.
	It totally blindsided me.
	I showed up expecting.
	I mean, we even had that, what do they call it?
	Rehearsal dinner, you know, where you rehearse the whole thing, and her and I walked down, you know, up to the pastor, and I was totally blindsided by the whole thing.
	I showed up in a nice...
	You know, talks, expecting for her and I to walk down the aisle together.
	Sorry, expecting you and your daughter to walk down the aisle together?
	Yes, without him.
	Sorry, has that been talked about or discussed before?
	Well, yeah, I mean, that's why I say I was totally blindsided.
	Even the rehearsal dinner, it wasn't him and I walking her.
	It was just her and I. And then on the wedding day, she comes to me literally two minutes before this is going to happen and says, hey, this is what I want.
	And do you have any idea what changed?
	Well, I think that was her plan all along, quite honestly.
	I don't think anything changed.
	I think that she thought that if she just sprung it on me at the last minute that I would just agree to it.
	Okay, and how old was your daughter when she got married?
	Oh, she'll be 34 now, so six years ago.
	Oh, she was 28, okay.
	Yeah. All right.
	Now, your then perception is that she sprung this on you because she wanted this, but she knew you might not agree to it ahead of time, so your perception is that...
	And she was sort of so manipulative or bullying or something like that, that if she springs in on you, right at the last minute, you're kind of cornered and kind of forced into doing what she wants.
	Is that right?
	Exactly. Right.
	And she knew that I would not have agreed to that.
	That's why I was so angry, because...
	She knew absolutely, 100%.
	I would have never agreed to that, and that's why she did it the way...
	It was kind of insulting, because we had a very good relationship.
	Like I said, I'd seen her as often as I could, and she should have known that I wasn't going to just say, okay, whatever.
	Sorry, I'm just trying to puzzle this out.
	But if you have a really good relationship, then why would she be, in your view, this manipulative and false?
	Well, as I said, it's one of the horrors of divorce that you don't get to...
	As much of his influence as I tried to be in her life and as much as I tried to guide, not that I'm perfect.
	Like I said, I've made a million mistakes, all this being a bunch of them, but her mother raised her horribly.
	No, no, that's not what I'm asking.
	What I'm asking is, how can you have a really good relationship with someone who's willing to be, in your view, this manipulative and horrible?
	Well, that's after the fact.
	I'm saying we had a really good relationship the entire time she was growing up.
	But just as she got older and older, I believe, just to give you a silly little example, we were always active and doing things in her youth.
	She was always in really good shape.
	Her mom got extremely overweight and, I mean, obese.
	And somehow, in their later teens, because she had other children as well, my ex-wife, and they all ended up, including my daughter, is extremely obese now.
	They just ended up having this bonding around overeating and bragging about it.
	I mean, I'll post things on social media about...
	Just being totally gluttonous and...
	Okay, so listen, I got to interrupt you here because I'm not sure if we're having a conversation.
	I know you're just telling me, you're just giving me a brain dump.
	Now, if you want to give me a brain dump, that's fine.
	Like, it's your call.
	So if you want to give me a brain dump, that's fine.
	But I keep asking questions and you keep not answering them.
	Now, if you're calling me for feedback...
	No, it's not a big criticism or anything like that.
	I'm just sort of pointing this out.
	If you're calling me for feedback, you know, like if you go to the doctor and you say, I'm not feeling well, the doctor's going to say, well, where does it hurt or what are your symptoms?
	And then if you say, well, my ex-wife overfed my children, what's the doctor going to say at some point?
	Yeah, I've heard you make this analogy on other calls, and I apologize.
	I didn't even realize I was doing that.
	Okay, do you remember my question?
	Why was I, or why do I think I had a good relationship with somebody who's so manipulative?
	Right. Manipulative.
	Okay, so the reason I'm asking that, just so you know, is that if she's really manipulative and messes with your head and puts you in a corner on her wedding day because she's got leverage and power, I mean, that's pretty nasty,
	right? It is.
	Okay, so can you have...
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Can you have a good relationship with someone who's pretty nasty?
	No. So, I'm just trying...
	Either you didn't have a good relationship, or she wasn't nasty.
	But she can't be both nasty and manipulative, and you have a good relationship with her, at least as an adult.
	You say, well, when she was a kid...
	But by the time this all happened, she was 10 years an adult, right?
	She was 28. So that's what I'm trying to understand.
	It sounds like you miss this good relationship, which I sympathize with, and obviously I'd love to help you with.
	But if you miss this good relationship, then she can't have been that manipulative on her wedding day.
	If she was that manipulative on her wedding day, as you say, then you kind of had a good relationship.
	Thank you.
	Well, it certainly wasn't as good or as close as I would have liked it to have been.
	you.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I know you have a policy of not being a...
	I mean, nobody can tell somebody...
	What to do, and I get that.
	I'm just looking for advice because I'm extremely conflicted.
	I mean, I love my daughter.
	I think about when she was a child and how she was versus how she ended up as an adult, and I just, I don't know, I just miss her.
	No, and listen, I sympathize with that, and I understand.
	I'm just telling you that from the outside, if you had a good relationship with her, Then she was not this bad and manipulative on her wedding day.
	Right? If she was this bad and manipulative on her wedding day, you kind of had a good relationship with her, at least as an adult.
	Because I think that's the contradiction that is at the heart of your ambivalence about this issue.
	Because if, let's say, like, I obviously wasn't there, this is probably pure nonsense that I'm about to say, but let me just...
	Say it anyway for the sake of sort of explaining where your ambivalence might be coming from.
	So let's say that she really did want you to walk her down the aisle because she cares about you and you're her biological father.
	Now let's say she really, really wanted you to walk her down the aisle, but she was afraid that you would say no.
	Out of your resentment towards her mother and her stepfather, right?
	Gotcha. Now, let's say that she wants you to walk her down the aisle.
	She knows you're going to say no, which is, in a sense, a punishment of her for things entirely outside of her control, right?
	So, how old was she when her mother had the affair and you got divorced?
	Around one or so.
	Okay. So, obviously, she has no responsibility for you being her father.
	She has no responsibility for her stepfather being her stepfather.
	She has no responsibility for your wife having the affair, and she has no responsibility for the divorce, and she had zero power with regards to her mother when she was growing up, right?
	Can we all...
	Can we accept all of that?
	Yeah, I've never blamed her for any of that.
	I totally understand why she has such a bond with this man, because he basically raised her.
	We've had those discussions.
	I don't blame her a bit.
	What I blame her for is not coming to me ahead of time and not to have the courage.
	And I get that she knew that I would be upset.
	You know, you said you'd say no.
	Yeah. Okay, so let's say that she wants you to walk her down the aisle because she cares about you and you're her father.
	So she wants you to walk her down the aisle.
	She can't say no to her stepfather because he raised her.
	And also, if she says no to her stepfather, what's her mother going to do?
	Well, they ended up getting a divorce later anyway, but she probably would have been upset.
	Hang on.
	I'm not talking about later.
	Yes. She probably would have been upset with her.
	Well, she'd have lost her shit, right?
	Probably so.
	Yeah, yeah.
	How dare you?
	It's such an insult.
	This is the man who raised you, blah, blah, blah.
	And so she wanted you, and maybe she had to have her stepfather, and maybe she cares about him and all of that, but she wanted...
	Her two dads, who she is not at all responsible for having.
	She has no responsibility for the fact that she has two dads, right?
	Right. So, she wanted her two fathers to walk her down the aisle, and she was scared of you saying no.
	Right? And listen, I'm sure when you grew up, you were scared about things with your parents too, right?
	Yeah. I mean, you've listened to a bunch of call-in shows where I say to people, go and be honest with your parents, right?
	And they're terrified of it.
	So, being frightened, hang on, being frightened of parental blowback, parental negatives, parental problems is natural to all children.
	So she wanted both of her parents, both of her fathers, sorry, she wanted both of her fathers to walk her down the aisle, and she was scared of asking you ahead of time because you would get angry and say no.
	So then she asked you on the day, and this is just a possible interpretation, right?
	It could be totally wrong.
	But she asked you on the day, because she really did want you to walk her down the aisle, and she asked you on the day in the hopes that the sentimentality of the day would overcome your bitterness towards her mother and her stepfather,
	which, again, she has zero responsibility for, and she hoped that the sentimentality of the day would cause you Now, I wasn't there,
	obviously. I'm sure it was a complex day.
	But that's not an impossible interpretation.
	That's not beyond the realm of possibility.
	Is that right?
	No, I think you're exactly right.
	Quite honestly, I've never thought about it like that.
	I mean, in my mind, I've never given her any reason to fear me.
	When I say I refuse to...
	I'm not an angry man.
	I've never been angry.
	Sorry, you...
	Okay, this is the sentimentality that doesn't help you.
	When you just say stuff like this, I've never given her any reason to fear me, that's a lie.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	Did she ever find out that you beat up her stepfather and went to jail?
	I don't think she even knows about that.
	She was so young.
	I've never discussed it.
	Maybe her mom, my daughter and I have never discussed it.
	I mean, I've never raised my voice to her.
	I've never hit any of my kids, never raised my voice, never used curses.
	We always discuss things.
	That was what was so disappointing, the fact that she couldn't discuss this.
	But you're absolutely right.
	You told me you would have said no.
	So that's not a discussion.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I'm not saying whether it should or shouldn't be a discussion.
	I don't know.
	But that sure as shit is not a discussion.
	If she once says, I wanted you to walk me down the aisle, you say, I'm not doing that in a million years.
	That's not a discussion, right?
	I'm not trying to be harsh, but don't tell me something's a discussion when it wasn't.
	Well, there never was a discussion.
	Because she knows you!
	Okay. I mean, she was right.
	Yeah. Like you say, well, by God, I can't believe that she didn't ask me ahead of time the thing that I absolutely would have said no to.
	You don't think she knew you were going to say no and that the only chance was to hope that the sentimentality of the day might overcome your bitterness?
	I don't think she knew you were going to say no and that the sentimentality of the day might overcome your bitterness.
	you.
	Well, and quite honestly, I don't know if I would have absolutely said no if I said that.
	I think the biggest issue that I had was the fact that I was blindsided just minutes before without any kind of discussion.
	And I wouldn't have liked it.
	Don't get me wrong.
	I wouldn't have liked it.
	But I never had absolute animosity.
	It's crazy.
	I would go to my ex-wife's parents' house with my kids and my daughter, and we'd hang out on holidays.
	Like I said, I did everything.
	I was friendly with this guy because he was good with my daughter.
	He wasn't abusive.
	He provided a good home and everything.
	I didn't hate them.
	You know, I got over the whole thing.
	She cheated, we got a divorce, and I was done over it.
	Okay, so why say no on the wedding day if you're over the bitterness?
	I just felt like it got the way it happened, you know, that I was being manipulated, and I didn't like being manipulated.
	Okay, no, no, no, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	So the manipulated thing, that's an interpretation.
	Because there's another possibility, which is that she really wanted you to walk her down the aisle, but she was terrified of the blowback, so on the day she hoped that the sentimentality of the day might overcome your resistance.
	Because if you were over your bitterness, and maybe, I'm obviously happy to be corrected on this as in all things, but if you had genuinely overcome your bitterness, Why wouldn't you walk her down the aisle?
	Well, and I already agreed with you that you've given me a new way to look at this, and this is the advice I was looking for in hindsight.
	Okay, this is you not answering my question.
	Now, listen, if you don't want to answer my question, that's totally fine, but I just appreciate you telling me, Steph, I'm not going to answer your question.
	Okay, ask it again, please.
	The question was, if you had genuinely overcome your bitterness, why wouldn't you just walk your daughter down the aisle?
	Because I felt like I was being manipulated and I didn't like being manipulated into doing something.
	Again, at that point, it didn't even have to do with him as much as her not discussing this with me before the wedding that tried to manipulate me.
	I don't know.
	I just...
	I didn't handle things the way I should have.
	No, no.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Let's back up, right?
	So let's say that...
	I'm out for dinner, like I went out for dinner with my wife for Valentine's Day, right?
	So let's say I'm out for dinner with my wife, and then she says ahead of time, she doesn't say anything ahead of time, but it turns out that she had arranged to get me a piece of carrot cake with a sparkler on it.
	I don't know, something like that.
	I don't know, whatever your food of weakness is, mine happens to be carrot cake, right?
	Right? So, she sprung something on me, which I was not expecting, without telling me about it ahead of time, right?
	Is she manipulating me?
	Well, not in that situation.
	It's a nice surprise.
	Yeah. So, why isn't it a nice surprise?
	Potentially, why isn't it a nice surprise?
	That she's like, you know, Dad, I want you to walk me down the aisle.
	This is my big surprise for you.
	I want you to walk me down the aisle.
	Like, here's a piece of carrot cake with sparklers on it, right?
	And now, am I going to take the carrot cake and throw it across the room because she didn't talk to me about it ahead of time?
	Well, I gotta be honest, that's a completely different experience than what I experienced, and it wasn't even her that came to me.
	I can't remember if it was one of the ushers or the pastors, but...
	Okay, so your daughter says to you she wants you to walk her down the aisle.
	Now, that's only manipulative if that's a negative experience, and it can only be a negative experience because you're bitter and angry about something.
	I mean, if my daughter asked me to walk her down the aisle, I consider that a plus, an honor, right?
	Yeah. Now, here's another question.
	Father? Father?
	Why the ever-loving fuck didn't you just ask her ahead of time, if she wants you to walk her down the aisle?
	If apparently not discussing things ahead of time is really bad, why didn't you bring it up ahead of time as her father?
	Well, and again, we had had a rehearsal dinner.
	Why did you not bring it up to her ahead of time if it's important?
	As the father.
	As the father, it's always on you.
	The relationship is always on you.
	I'm not understanding the question because it was assumed that, I mean, we had literally, her and I had walked down the aisle in this rehearsal, just her and I. It was assumed that this is how,
	that's the point of a rehearsal, is that's how you're going to do it for the real thing.
	I didn't think it was anything to talk about it.
	I just kind of assumed that this is how we're rehearsing it.
	This is how it's going to be done on the actual day.
	Okay, so why did you not talk about things I assume you have some kind of relationship with?
	With your wife's new husband, or I guess then not so new husband, but with the stepfather of your daughter, did you talk about that with him at all and say, how do you feel?
	I mean, you're not walking her down the aisle, but you did kind of raise her.
	Like, did you talk to anyone ahead of time about this challenge?
	And it is a challenge that your daughter, it's not her fault that she has two dads, right?
	So, did you talk about things ahead of time because...
	I mean, that might be unpleasant for her stepfather to not walk her down the aisle, right?
	No, I never talked.
	Like I said, I just assumed that that's how it was going to happen.
	I mean, that's how normal weather is.
	Why wouldn't you say, and again, I'm just coming in from the outside here, right?
	So why wouldn't you say to your daughter, Quite honestly,
	I never even thought about it.
	It never even crossed my mind.
	Again, I hate to use the word.
	I assumed that he would understand that I'm her biological father and that he was fine.
	Okay, so that's a lack of empathy for the guy, right?
	I mean, if you put yourself in his shoes and you raised the girl significantly, right?
	Then wouldn't you want to walk down the aisle with her?
	I guess.
	I mean, if I was...
	Don't rub her bones out of me now, right?
	Put yourself in his shoes.
	Yeah, put yourself in his shoes.
	If I was in his shoes, the way I was thinking at the time, if I was in his shoes, I would totally understand that I'm not the real father and that the real father is going to want to...
	Okay, so that brings us to the question of what is meant by a real father.
	Well, and that's what stinks about divorces.
	It doesn't matter how hard you try, you can no longer be the real father.
	Well, it's shared duties.
	Obviously, you have the...
	Biological edge, right?
	But a sperm donor, to take an extreme example, a sperm donor is not a, quote, real father, right?
	Exactly. Okay, so the sperm donor thing is not what defines a real father.
	involvement and the stepdad's involvement, who had more when she was growing up.
	you.
	You there?
	Sorry, I didn't quite catch that.
	Oh, I didn't know if you were still there or not.
	Yeah, so of the two of you, you being the biological father who was two hours away, and him being the live-in stepfather, who raised your daughter more, on average, in terms of just time invested, you or him?
	Oh, and that's why I'm so angry with him.
	He stole that from me.
	He basically made me a sperm donor.
	Because he got to eat dinner with my daughter every night.
	He got to tuck her in.
	And they did all this willingly.
	I was good to my ex-wife.
	Like I said, we never had an argument.
	Never yelled, screamed.
	I didn't cheat on her.
	Nothing. He not only stole my wife, but he stole my daughter.
	And so, yeah, you know, in hindsight, yeah, I was pretty bitter about the whole thing.
	And I'm not going to argue with you about that or say that, you know, that makes perfect sense to me, that you would be angry and bitter about this guy who had sex with your wife and stole your daughter, in a sense.
	I completely understand that.
	And I had absolutely no control over it.
	Like I said, I had to fight tooth and nail and spend thousands of dollars just to see her.
	And when I finally got a decent judge, I mean, he had my ex in tears.
	He was absolutely livid because I was paying child support for two years and never even got to see my daughter.
	She would hide her from me.
	And again, I never mentioned any of this to my daughter.
	Sorry, how old was she?
	What ages was she that you couldn't see her?
	I'm so sorry about that, of course.
	But what ages was she that you couldn't see her?
	From the time that we split up until she was maybe three or four.
	Oh, gosh.
	Okay. Okay.
	I mean, I never heard her first words.
	I never seen her walk.
	Nothing. They just stole her.
	And I had to fight just to get any kind of rights.
	And then I seen her as often.
	And I knew this is none of my daughter's fault.
	Right. Now, I just had this overwhelming emotion.
	I could not.
	I had been in my tongue for so many years.
	I could not.
	I just.
	I couldn't even stand to be in the same room as that man on that day.
	Right. Right.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	And you...
	I assume your daughter does not know much about how your father...
	Sorry, about how her mother kept her from you for years.
	No. I don't think she knows anything to this day.
	Now... She'd already been 10 years an adult.
	Why? And I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have told her these things, but they're pretty important, I would say.
	And why do you think you didn't tell?
	Because her stepfather would have at least to some degree been involved in these decisions to keep your child from you, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so I'm really starting to sort of PC.
	I really understand this and the anger and the bitterness.
	I get all of that.
	But why would you not tell your daughter as an adult the factual circumstances of the difficulties you had as a father that were imposed by your ex-wife and her husband?
	Well, again, I just...
	I always had this feeling that I didn't want to sabotage her relationship with her mom and didn't want to drag her into all this chaos because none of it was her fault.
	And so I tried to leave her out of everything as much as I thought.
	But hang on, hang on.
	And again, I sympathize with all of this.
	But if you leave her out of and sabotage, these words, you just program yourself.
	She was being manipulative.
	I didn't want to sabotage.
	I didn't want to badmouth.
	You know, it's like, this is just programming.
	Because all of this is just lying.
	Are you a Christian man?
	Yeah. Thou shalt not bear false witness.
	Means in matters of significant moral import, you must tell the truth.
	So if you lie by omission to your daughter, and she has no idea, Of the wrongs that have been done unto you by her mother and her stepfather, how is she supposed to interpret you refusing to share her with her stepfather on her wedding day?
	She doesn't know.
	You just look bitter and negative for reasons she can't comprehend.
	So here's the thing.
	If you want to hide things from people, then you have to hide things from people.
	Then you have to put on a happy face, grit your teeth, and walk her down the aisle with her stepdad, right?
	Because you're hiding things from her.
	But what I don't quite follow is I'm going to pretend that these things didn't happen except on her wedding day.
	Then it's all going to come crashing down, all the things I didn't say, and now completely dominating my perspective.
	And I am, in a sense, going to ruin her wedding day because that's not doing a very good job of hiding from her things that are not her fault.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah. I mean, if I'm hiding that I have a stomachache, right, there's no point.
	Like, right in the most important moment, suddenly complaining loudly about having a stomachache and storming out.
	Like, if I'm going to hide that I have a stomachache, I have to hide that I have a stomachache, if that makes sense.
	And take it with me to the grave, in a way.
	So, I'm trying to sort of figure out, say, well, I don't want to cause my daughter to suffer for things that aren't her fault.
	But what her mother and stepfather did to you is not...
	So I'm trying to figure out why she would then suffer for that if your goal is to not have her suffer for things that aren't her fault.
	Why would she then suffer for those things on her wedding day?
	Bye. Bye.
	Thank you.
	If you're going to live like you weren't wronged, you know, if that's your cross to bear, whether that's right or wrong, I don't know, but if that's your choice...
	Then you just have to carry that cross like it ain't no thing, right?
	But there's no point carrying that cross like it ain't no thing and then just suddenly bleeding out on her wedding day, if that makes sense.
	And listen, I sympathize with all the feelings.
	I really do.
	I mean, you were horribly wronged and your daughter was horribly wronged.
	I really get all of that and I really sympathize with that.
	But if the goal is to not have her suffer for things that aren't her fault, then you walk down the wedding aisle with her stepdad.
	And if your goal is, no, no, I have to tell the truth, then you have to tell her the truth.
	But I don't think you can, say, live a lie with her for, like, I guess close to three decades, and then suddenly have the truth acted out without context and information on her wedding day, if that makes sense.
	And it absolutely does.
	Yeah, you convinced me a while back that I made the wrong decision.
	I really wish I would have been listening to you back then instead of just recently.
	Like, I really wish I would have been listening to you back then.
	Oh, I just, I don't know.
	It was just, I thought I was doing all the right things and I just, hey, I just, and I didn't make a scene.
	But I definitely got more emotional than I should have.
	Well, no, but it was a highly negative experience for her on her wedding day, right?
	And that's why I let my emotions get the better of me and ruined her day.
	Well, and that's, you know, maybe that was the, you could have been the first step to being more honest and direct about what you had experienced as a father when she was younger.
	Oh, trust me, I've learned a lot since, and this is why one man, you know, to be honest right from the get-go, don't...
	Yeah, this doesn't work.
	Well, and I completely understand why you would want to hide her mother's negative behavior from her since her mother kept you from her for years, and then the only way that you got...
	To spend time with her again was because you happened to luck upon this judge who seemed to have done the right thing.
	So you don't want the mom to get upset.
	And this is why this kind of non-truth-telling after divorce is almost inevitable, particularly if you have a vengeful woman who doesn't have the self-restraint of essential ethics.
	Because, you know, if the mom...
	Sorry, there's something touching the microphone or clicking or rubbing.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	Yeah, I'm sorry.
	I was walking around and I guess it was rubbing.
	Okay, no problem.
	So, with regards to her mother, what can you tell the truth?
	You can't tell the four-year-old, well, mom had an affair and then I beat up the guy and then she kept you from me for years and I had to spend all this money, right?
	You can't tell the truth.
	To kids in a divorce.
	Especially if you have an immature partner.
	It could be male or a female.
	I think it tends to be a little bit more on the female side.
	But you can't tell...
	I mean, my dad couldn't...
	Sorry, there's still this rubbing and sort of scratching sand.
	Oh. See if that's better.
	Thank you.
	So, my father couldn't tell me the truth about his divorce with my mother because she was a litigious woman, right?
	And, you know, she could just launch more lawyers at him, and so he couldn't...
	But, you know, how can you have a relationship with people that you can't tell them the truth?
	That's really complicated, right?
	And Hans, once she got old enough, I should have had a conversation with her and talked with her about all this long before the wedding.
	Well, but I can understand why you didn't.
	Because, of course, let's say you sit down with your daughter and you say, well, your mom had an affair, she left me for this guy, she took you with her, and I didn't see you for years because your mother was physically keeping you from me,
	and I had to spend all this money on lawyers and so on, right?
	So if you say all of that to your daughter, what happens then?
	Thank you.
	Oh, she probably would have ended up having animosity towards her mom.
	I mean, she lived with her mom up until she got married and moved in with her husband.
	Okay, so she goes back to her mother, right?
	And she says to her mother, this is what dad told me.
	Is this true?
	Now, you're not there for the conversation, right?
	So what does her mother say?
	And what does her stepfather say?
	I mean, I guess they would have probably been honest with her and tried to make it sound as good as they could.
	Well, I don't know, but generally, people are not very good at taking responsibility for their own bad decisions, because if your ex-wife and her husband had been really good at taking responsibility for the bad decisions, they would have told her already as an adult.
	You know, well, here's the problems.
	You know, I did have an affair on your father, and then I moved away, and I kept you from him for years, and it was only because I was humiliated and ordered to by a judge that I ended up having him see you, right?
	So, that would be taking responsibility for your own bad decisions, right?
	Right. Which they hadn't done.
	No. So, my guess is that you would have got an entirely enraged phone call or visit from your ex and her husband, right?
	They wouldn't have visited me, but they would have called me.
	Right. And they would have been, I would imagine, quite hostile.
	Yep. And then, those kinds of people often don't take that kind of exposure with any kind of grace or honor.
	And so they may have forbidden her to see you.
	Thank you.
	or talk to you.
	you.
	So, your decision to not tell the truth, I can understand in terms of consequentialism.
	And this is something that divorced dads, as you know, and divorced moms, but I'm talking to a divorced dad, this is something that divorced dads wrestle with every day.
	When should I have told the truth?
	What kind of truth should I have told?
	And what would have been the blowback or consequences of telling my kids the truth?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Especially, as you say, like you're happy to leave that level of conflict in the rear view.
	Do you necessarily want to open that can of worms, so to speak, as an older man with, you know, you say you're happily married for 35 years and you've got all these new kids.
	Do you necessarily want to go poke what could be a screeching harpy of blowback for the sake of, what, maybe an improved relationship with your daughter, but...
	An improved relationship with your daughter would mean that she would be entirely in conflict with the people she was living with.
	you.
	What kind of truth can you say?
	And we can all have this abstract thing, like, honesty is the best policy.
	And I get that, and I understand that, and I appreciate that.
	But in terms of, you know, you've had conflict with this woman.
	For decades, and if you tell your daughter the truth, that conflict is going to explode again.
	And does that have a negative impact on your relationship with your current children, your current wife, in that sense, right?
	Does your current wife want you to go around poking the hornet's nest of your old marriage?
	You have a responsibility to your new kids as well, right?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	And they're all grown.
	My youngest is 20. Well, we'll be 21 now.
	And that's what was so conflicting to me as well is everybody was at the wedding.
	My current wife, all my other children.
	And they always loved each other.
	And on that day, they were like, come on, Dad, let's go.
	Don't do this.
	You know, they despised to this day.
	They cut off all contact with her, don't like how she's turned out, what she did.
	Like I said, I just have so many reasons that I've been struggling with this.
	Sorry, are you saying that your current children have cut off your first child?
	Yes. Okay.
	So she did have some kind of contact with them over the past six years, or was that since the wedding?
	Well, not recently.
	But yeah, growing up, they all, you know, like I said, we had like communal vacations with my ex and her kids and my kids.
	And, you know, we made it as good as it could be.
	Or at least I attempted to make it.
	You know, I invited them to everything and tried to do everything with my daughter.
	Okay, so sorry, what issues do your children have with your first daughter at the moment?
	Well, just as she got older and the way she was raised, she just became more like my ex instead of like we are.
	I mean, we talk about things.
	We would never...
	They know I'm not going to blow up and beat them or yell at them.
	They know that they can talk to me about any issues.
	It's complicated.
	Not that we haven't had our disagreements, even yelling matches with me and my kids, but we'll battle it out.
	Everything's good, and we're loving each other five minutes later.
	Okay. So, if your first daughter became more and more like your ex-wife, does she still have the weight issue?
	Has she had kids?
	She's having her first kid in a couple months, and everybody's concerned.
	Well, that's another thing.
	They were vaxxers and masters.
	All my children or all my other kids are pitying her husband, my daughter's husband, and their soon-to-be child.
	They really have no respect for her.
	Right. So, do you miss the daughter who is, as far as you have heard?
	Like, let's say she's become like your ex, and she's volatile and conformist and aggressive, and you can't tell her any particular truths or contradict her or anything like that.
	So, if your firstborn has become like your ex, do you miss who she has become according to what?
	Your children have reported, or do you miss who she was when she was little?
	Absolutely, I miss her.
	I see her as just when she was little.
	I haven't even seen her in years, so I don't even know what she looks like.
	But I miss her for who she was.
	And I wish I could have raised her and had a relationship.
	Yeah, you can't go back.
	I can't turn back time.
	Well, the only way that you could turn back time would be to not marry her mother, right?
	Exactly. So the only way you can undo who she is is to have her not exist at all.
	Well, I wouldn't wish for that.
	Right. So where you are, given what happened when you were younger, where
	are is the least harm possible to her.
	Thank you.
	Because if you were with her and telling her the truth, she would most likely align with your mother and punish you with ostracism.
	You mean her mother?
	Sorry, her mother, yeah.
	She would align with her mother and punish you with ostracism.
	Also... She's chosen to marry a man in a state of volatility and denial and not being in possession of the facts, and so I would imagine that that marriage is somewhat dependent upon her being aligned with her mother, and obviously her husband,
	your daughter's husband, is relatively content with having your ex-wife as his mother-in-law.
	And so he must have a blindness to this volatility, so therefore he is undefended or unprotected in this situation, which is partly why your daughter chose him and so on.
	So, you know, it's the old be careful what you wish for.
	You just might get it that if you were to be in touch with your daughter, it might be quite agonizing for you.
	Yeah, probably so.
	And what happened on the day of the wedding six years ago when she said, you know, you've ruined my wedding and so on?
	What did she say that you haven't spoken in six years or that that domino was sort of set in motion?
	Uh, she really didn't say anything.
	She cried and, you know, and...
	I said, this is how it's going to be.
	Sorry, what does that mean, this is how it's going to be?
	Well, it's going to be both of you.
	She basically said, it's going to be both of you walking me down the aisle or just him.
	I said, fine, then he can do it.
	We sat through the wedding.
	I tried to talk to her afterwards.
	She wouldn't talk to me.
	We went home.
	I thought I'd call her, and then I'd call her over and over for years, and she's never taken a single call or talked to me since the wedding.
	Okay, but she didn't say at the wedding, you're dead to me.
	I have no father.
	I'm never going to talk to you again.
	She just said, you know, you ruined my wedding.
	My makeup's bad and so on, right?
	Yeah. Okay.
	They just basically carried on with the wedding and then afterwards she wouldn't talk to me at all.
	And we haven't spoken since.
	Right. Now, how long after the wedding did your ex-wife and her husband split up?
	Oh, maybe.
	I really aren't certain.
	Maybe a year.
	He ended up cheating on her.
	So. Okay.
	Okay. And how often have you tried to contact her over the last six years?
	I assume it's diminished, but what have you tried?
	Maybe once a month.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, so dozens of times over the last six years you've tried to contact and call, right?
	Probably hundreds.
	Okay. Yes.
	And again, I really sympathize with this.
	it's obviously a deeply sad and tragic situation.
	were young, you said you got married like out of high school, right?
	Yeah. And she was already pregnant.
	Is that right?
	Yes. So what happened, do you think, in your childhood
	with your own parents that you ended up in this kind of
	Yes. Oh.
	Well, like I said, this is why I appreciate what you do because you warn a lot of people and give them advice and where they can avoid all these kinds of situations because I had absolutely no self-knowledge, no guards or preparation or nothing to save me from anything.
	Yeah, I had a pretty horrible childhood, but...
	So it's your parents?
	Yeah, which I pretty much cut off most contact with them quite a while ago.
	Well, but in terms of how did you end up in a bad marriage with a woman who cheated on you and took your kid from you, it's because your parents didn't raise you to be protected against these kinds of predations.
	They blame me for the divorce.
	Oh, what did they say?
	It's been quite a while ago, but I don't really remember.
	They gave me a bunch of lectures about how marriage is a lot of hard work, and I had to do this and that, even though she had cheated on me and I had done nothing wrong.
	Okay, so they blamed you for your wife cheating on you?
	Basically. At least for the divorce.
	They at least blamed me for the divorce.
	They didn't necessarily say that it was my fault for her cheating on me.
	Okay, so your parents, did they warn you at all about...
	I mean, what were the red flags that you're...
	Your ex-wife had before you married her.
	Oh, I'm sure there was a bunch, but again, I was so young and stupid and didn't have any of the knowledge.
	You keep saying this, it's really annoying.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	It's really annoying.
	Jesus, man.
	Stop insulting yourself.
	I won't have it.
	You were not young and stupid.
	You know, if I grew up in Africa and my father never tells me about the dangers of tessy flies and sleeping sickness and lions and I go out and get mauled and bitten by insects, am I stupid?
	No. I'm unprotected.
	If my mother throws me out of the house in the middle of a Canadian winter and I get frostbite, am I just stupid and don't understand what the cold is?
	No. So what do you keep saying?
	I don't understand, but you've listened to what I do for years, and you're still trying to pull this shit.
	Oh, young and stupid.
	I don't understand that.
	Help me follow this.
	What are you doing here?
	Well, I suppose I shouldn't call myself stupid.
	I just didn't have the knowledge that I do now.
	But you do keep referring to yourself as young and stupid.
	Yeah. So what?
	And nobody certainly gave me the knowledge.
	Right. And that's why I premised this conversation by saying so.
	I'm kind of bitter because even worse than not giving me the knowledge, they lied to me about so many things.
	Like what?
	I feel like I was sabotaged.
	Like, what did they lie about?
	Well, just, you know, again, you know, believing all the things that I was taught about, femininity or whatever, and young girls, and I was just totally unprepared.
	You know, I was, you know, I was not prepared at all for girls to be throwing themselves at me or intentionally getting pregnant.
	I mean, I didn't even believe that initially.
	I thought it was an accident or whatever until one of my ex's friends said, no, she intentionally got pregnant.
	And, I mean, that was the last thing I was expecting as an 18-year-old boy just out of high school and with nothing.
	I mean, I had a job and a car, but I surely wasn't ready to have a family or prepared.
	Right. So, I'm not sure then.
	How old are you now?
	Oh, 53?
	I don't really keep track of it anymore.
	53, 54?
	Okay, so then why, when you look back almost 40 years, why are you insulting your younger self?
	No, I shouldn't be.
	Like I said, I shouldn't call myself stupid.
	I just didn't have the knowledge for the inexperience of youth.
	And like I said, everybody not preparing me for...
	And maybe they didn't even know.
	Maybe they weren't lying to me.
	Well, I mean, if I was raised by wolves and have trouble with learning language, did I say I have just mysterious learning disabilities and I'm just...
	Stupid, or?
	No. Sorry, we're back to the background noise.
	Sorry. I just need to sit still.
	I know it's tough, but...
	Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, there's this insult.
	I mean, I'm sure your wife, if you say to your wife, well, I was young and stupid, I'm sure she says something different, doesn't she?
	I mean, she doesn't want to be married to a stupid guy, right?
	It's interesting you say that because that's a conversation we have a lot.
	Well, she gets upset with you for being negative towards yourself?
	Yeah. Okay, so who does it serve for you to insult yourself as a teenager?
	It doesn't serve you, right?
	So who does it serve?
	I'm not sure.
	Yes, you are.
	Okay, who called you stupid when you were growing up?
	We can do this one if you want, although you know the answer.
	So who referred to you as stupid when you were growing up?
	Oh, my parents.
	Yep, of course, right?
	So calling yourself stupid is just a way of appeasing your parents.
	Now, you said that they're still in your life, although you have very little contact with them.
	Is that right?
	Yes. So why are they still in your life?
	I don't know whether they should or shouldn't be.
	I'm just curious why.
	I'm not really sure I'm not really sure Thank you.
	Yeah, it's something I've struggled with forever.
	I'm so sorry.
	I don't know what you're doing with the microphone.
	You're going to just have to stop touching, stop moving, sit down, and not move.
	I'm so sorry, but it's just really distracting.
	Yeah, I'm going to have to sit down.
	Yeah, it's really distracting.
	Like, fourth time, you're just going to have to stop.
	So, why are they still in your life?
	Have you ever had an honest conversation with them about how they threw you to the she-wolf when you were a teenager?
	Or the problems that you had with them?
	No. Why not?
	Why are you still...
	I mean, why are you lying to them?
	Two. Two.
	Two. Thank you.
	Well, quite honestly, we can't have any conversations at all.
	It'll always just turn into an argument, or they'll just...
	I mean, you know all the stories.
	They'll just...
	Throw it away, or say, ah, that didn't happen, or it wasn't like that, or it'll be an argument, or I'm wrong, or I'm making things up, or whatever.
	Okay. So why would you want people in your life who call you a liar when you're telling the truth about important things that happen to you?
	Well, I don't, which is why I've cut most contact off with them, and I guess, like...
	I mean, I know what you're going to say about all this, and, you know, I feel some kind of obligation to have some relationship with them, but I've tried to make it extremely limited.
	And what does extremely limited mean?
	Oh, we might see each other once or twice a year and talk, like major holidays, Christmas or Thanksgiving.
	Okay, and how is their health?
	It's good.
	Okay, what's going to happen when they get old?
	What is going to happen when they get old and need support?
	Well, I have a lot of siblings that are a lot closer to them than I am, so I imagine the burden will fall on them.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	Which is one of my biggest issues with them.
	I mean, even my kids have commented of how different my parents are towards me versus all my other siblings, and even how they treat my kids versus my siblings' kids, and I'm not quite sure of why they've always had such an issue with me.
	Hmm. I don't know.
	Okay. Alright, so are there things that you love about your parents?
	Respect, admire?
	I mean, they have good qualities and bad qualities.
	It was very conflicting growing up because I had such a screwed up childhood and that was what was so conflicting is out of All the parents that I knew, they were the best ones that I knew.
	I guess I was always comparing them to the other parents that I've seen.
	I can't continue the conversation.
	Are you touching your microphone?
	I don't understand.
	I'm not touching it.
	Here, let me play my phone now.
	Maybe that'll help.
	Yeah, because there's something that is causing a clicking or a scratching sound or something.
	It might be moving the microphone as I'm holding it.
	Okay, yeah, just set the phone down and try to sit still.
	I got it shut down.
	All right, thank you.
	All right, so what are the admirable qualities?
	So the things that you morally admire about them?
	Mmm. more.
	Thank you.
	They were always hard working, good providers.
	you.
	I'm not really sure.
	Okay, so if your daughter meets a guy who's hard-working and a good provider, but doesn't really care about her and is kind of selfish and doesn't treat her well, Would you recommend that she marry him?
	No. Well, no, he's a good provider.
	Like your parents.
	That's something to admire, right?
	That's a plus.
	you.
	I'm not going to defend them.
	They definitely have way more negative qualities.
	Were they abusive?
	Yeah. In what ways?
	Oh, verbally, physically.
	Oh. of.
	Thank you.
	Yeah. And in what ways were they physically abusive?
	Thank you.
	Well, they would say it was discipline, but I pretty much got beat several times a day, just about every day.
	You beat how bad?
	With belts or paddles or spoons or sticks.
	I'm so sorry.
	That's just so evil.
	I'm so sorry.
	Several times a day, you said sometimes.
	Most days.
	Right. I was a pretty bad kid.
	No! Don't you fucking dare, man.
	Don't you dare.
	I will not stand for that.
	You do not.
	I know it doesn't.
	I know it doesn't.
	Excuse him.
	No. No, I'm not going down this road at all with you.
	You trying to drag me down to you were a bad kid?
	That's why you got beat?
	Not even a bit, man.
	I don't take one fucking step in that direction with you.
	Have your kids always been perfect?
	No. Do you beat them several times a day with implements?
	No. Well, why not?
	They're sometimes, quote, bad kids, right?
	Or is it just you?
	Who's a bad enough kid to get beaten?
	You get that special, singular curse of badness.
	Some devil child.
	No, they're vicious, cowardly child beaters.
	Listen, man, if you were talking to some woman and she said, well, my husband did beat me three times yesterday, but to be fair...
	To be fair, I didn't iron his shirts right.
	I'm a bad wife.
	What would you say to her?
	Oh, it's definitely not right what they did.
	If you hire a babysitter for your kids, it turns out that the babysitter beat the shit out of your kids with a wooden spoon, and your kids say, yeah, but we were bad.
	Would you say, yeah, no, that tracks?
	No. What would you say?
	Well, that's why I've never let any of my kids be babysitting by them.
	What would you say?
	I'd probably beat the person like I did my ex-wife's husband.
	Right. And what would you say to your kids if they said, We were beaten because we were bad.
	I would tell never let anybody beat you or harm you, which I did teach my kids.
	I struggled with the school with that.
	You missed the central part of it, though.
	Your kids say to you, the babysitter beat us with a belt.
	Buckle side out.
	But we were bad.
	So it makes sense.
	What would you say to them?
	I would tell them nobody deserves to get beaten.
	You would say, you were not beaten because you're bad.
	You were beaten because your babysitter was sadistic.
	They make up the, quote, badness as part of the sadism.
	The verbal abuse called, quote, badness is just really the purpose of the physical abuse because that way you can keep attacking yourself and they get to watch with pleasure from a distance as you punch the shit out of yourself after they're too old to do it.
	So the anger that you would have towards a babysitter who beat your children, would you invite that babysitter over only for special occasions though like birthdays and...
	Thanksgiving and Christmas and Easter, would you still invite that babysitter over?
	No. Well, why not?
	Well, why not?
	I suppose because I wouldn't have any bond with the babysitter.
	Well, what you're saying is, the more people beat children, The more welcome they are.
	So you wouldn't have the babysitter over because you only beat your kids a couple of times, but your parents who beat you thousands and thousands of times, well, that's special.
	That's a plus.
	So you would punish people who beat children only a little, but you reward the shit out of people who beat children a whole lot.
	It's a strange moral net, right?
	Let's all the...
	It catches...
	All the little fish, but mysteriously, that's all the big fish go.
	the fish go.
	Why would your children be so much more worthy of protection than you?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Why do you have different moral standards for everyone but yourself?
	That's not very universal when it comes to ethics, right?
	Would you respect a cop who arrested somebody who beat a child once, but instead gave the key to the city to people who beat children thousands of times?
	No. Well, why are you that cop then?
	Why are you doing things that you would have contempt for with
	you.
	I've been struggling with this as well.
	I've been struggling with this as well.
	I mean, I can't tell you what to do, but I can hopefully give you moral clarity.
	Thank you.
	you.
	If your parents are too toxic to have your kids around, why are you around them?
	And this is the whole family structure.
	I assume that...
	How many siblings do you have?
	Four. Right.
	So you've got five kids.
	I assume...
	I mean, do any of them have a problem with your parents beating children thousands of times?
	Oh... I don't...
	It was if they really got it like I did.
	I remember one time...
	But even if they didn't get it like you did, maybe they got it half.
	That's still a lot.
	And even if they got it not at all, they still saw and heard you getting the shit beaten out of you.
	That's also torture and torment, right?
	Well, and I was the oldest.
	They were all way younger.
	I mean, I can only remember one time where my dad went after my youngest sister, and I was old enough at that point to defend her, and so her and I always had kind of a special bond because she remembers that.
	I don't think they really experienced it, so they may view things differently than I do.
	Well, did they know that you got beaten a lot?
	Oh, they may remember it.
	I really haven't talked with them about it.
	Well, what do you mean?
	I assume that it was loud and violent, right?
	They're in the house, aren't they?
	Yeah. So, they would know.
	Even if they only caught one out of five times.
	That's still once every two days.
	I mean, so your siblings would know, knew, that you were beaten, even if it was vastly more than they were, they would still know that, right?
	Have they ever talked to you about it?
	Have you ever talked about it with them?
	No. Why not?
	Why not?
	I mean, we know why not.
	Your fear is that they would side with your parents, right?
	Well, you didn't listen.
	You were a bad kid.
	What could we do?
	It's all in the past.
	Who cares?
	Water under the bridge.
	Stop digging up the past.
	Move on.
	Forgive. Forget.
	Like, whatever nonsense.
	I don't know if that's what they would do, but isn't that the fear?
	I suppose.
	I don't think I ever thought that they would side with them, but yeah, kind of like water under the bridge.
	It's in the past.
	I mean, I'm over 50 years old now.
	It's long done.
	Right? Right.
	Right. And what is your sibling's relationship with your parents like?
	They all live close and see each other often.
	Okay, so they're aligned with your parents?
	yeah and they don't have any problems with the fact that your parents were violent and abusive to you and to some degree to them directly or indirectly it
	It's kind of a weird situation because, like I said, they were different to me than everybody else.
	To give you kind of...
	No, I'm not.
	Oh, my God, man.
	Stop it.
	Stop it.
	It's absolutely irrelevant.
	First of all, they saw, right?
	It's like saying, well, you know, the babysitter didn't beat me.
	He only beat my children.
	So why would I have a problem with it?
	Because you love your children.
	You have some loyalty to your children.
	They should have a problem with your parents because your parents beat you and you were a helpless child.
	Let's say that your parents only ever beat you and treated them like princes and princesses.
	That's still fucked up beyond words and they should dislike your parents for beating you.
	You're trying to give them an out like, well, it mostly happened to me.
	I mean, if some guy beats up your wife, do you care?
	Say, well, no, he didn't beat me up.
	It's just my wife.
	So I'm fine with it.
	I'm going to go have a beer with the guy who beat up my wife because he didn't beat me up, man.
	Would you ever think that?
	No. So, fuck, what are you doing?
	What nonsense are you trying to pull on me here?
	Your parents didn't beat them as much, so that's fine.
	They should care because they care about you when you were a child.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Oh, I mean, I think you're fixated on your daughter to some degree as a way of avoiding the other generic moral corruption that seems to be all around you in some ways.
	What does your wife think of your siblings who are best buds with the sadistic pair who beat you many times a day?
	She doesn't really like having my family.
	Good! Okay, so...
	Do you just not take the coaching for her?
	You think she's wrong?
	Like, what's the story?
	It's just...
	Oh... Yeah, I really don't know how to explain it.
	Everybody just views them differently.
	I mean, they've been foster parents since I was so young.
	Oh, so they took kids as child abusers.
	Yeah, they got plaques from the state.
	Accolations from all kinds of people, and they would have all these babies.
	I don't know if I ever even slept through a night from the time I was five years old.
	It was because my mom was a nurse, and so she would get all these cracking heroin babies that had issues, and they were always newborns would cry all night.
	As a matter of fact, You know, I'd be screaming in the middle of the night to shut the babies up, and she would always just say, you know, any complaint.
	Matter of fact, they're in their 80s, and they're still taking care of kids, and they can't hardly, and they're in good health, but, you know, they can't hardly take care of themselves, let alone.
	Newborn babies with health issues, and anytime I mention anything, they say, well, I heard this the whole entire time I was growing up, is I was just jealous of the babies, and like I said,
	it's just all so confusing.
	Sorry, what's confusing?
	Oh, just...
	Just trying to...
	Like you said, they do have admirable qualities.
	I know.
	Don't put words in my mouth, bro.
	I did not say they have admirable qualities.
	I didn't say you said that, but other people would say that they do.
	I'm sorry, but that's only because you lie your ass off.
	Other people say they have admirable qualities because you didn't say...
	You don't say they beat me a thousand times a year.
	Now, I'm not saying whether you should say this or not, but I'm just saying that if you don't tell the truth, then you're contributing to the false view that people would have of your parents,
	right? Yeah.
	And again, whether you should or shouldn't say it, but it's not that.
	It's not hugely complicated, right?
	I mean, if I help my father bury the body, so to speak, people are not going to know that he's a murderer.
	As an analogy, right?
	As an analogy, right?
	And if you're going to have, like, these standards to say, well, I'm not going to walk down the aisle with my daughter's stepfather, right?
	Then you're going to say, look, I have these moral standards.
	But do you?
	You're still breaking bread with unrepentant child abusers?
	You still bear false witness?
	About what happened with your ex and what happened with your parents.
	You don't talk honestly with your siblings.
	And I'm not going to nag or fuss with you about any of that, for sure.
	But then let's not pretend that you got these high moral standards with regards to your daughter's stepdad.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Does your daughter know anything about how you were abused as a child?
	No. Do you think she has any kind of instincts regarding your parents?
	I don't believe so.
	You say that one of the things that happened with your parents is that they did not prepare you for the predators in the world.
	Is lying to everyone about the true nature of your parents helping prepare them for the predators in the world?
	I haven't lied to my kids or my wife.
	I've told them everything.
	Maybe not great detail about.
	The extent of what happened to me as a child, but enough for them to understand why, hey, this is why we don't go there often or why I don't leave you alone with them.
	Okay, so your kids, is that with the exception of your firstborn?
	Yes. So your firstborn doesn't know?
	Well, mainly because we haven't had a relationship since.
	She's been an adult.
	I mean, these aren't the kind of things.
	No, no, no.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Didn't you have 18 to 28?
	Oh. Quite honestly, I don't know how long ago.
	I'd have to look to see.
	I'm not great with dates, but yeah, she was definitely an adult before she got married, and we never had these kind of in-depth conversations.
	No, you chose to withhold this information from her.
	And look, whether it's right or wrong, but let's just call it what it is, right?
	We never had these conversations.
	That's entirely on you.
	Because you were in possession of information she didn't have.
	Thank you.
	You know, if a man's having an affair for two years and then the wife gets mad at him, he says, well, we never had this conversation.
	You never asked.
	That would be kind of deceptive, right?
	Yeah, I agree with you.
	I definitely should have done a lot of things differently, and I wish I had the knowledge that I do now long before.
	I would have did a lot of things a lot differently.
	Well, no, because you have knowledge.
	You have knowledge that you were not a bad, stupid kid, but you still keep trying to pull that stuff anyway.
	So knowledge is not the problem.
	And I say this with great and deep sympathy.
	I really do.
	You're a great guy and you've done wonderful things in the world, and particularly with your family now or your family for the last 35 years.
	Beautiful, wonderful things.
	So I say this with massive amounts of respect and humility.
	But you give yourself permission to lie.
	Now, you call it, well, I don't want to badmouth, I don't want to cause problems, I don't want to upset people, and that's...
	Fine, and maybe that's true, and maybe that's even a decent reason.
	But you do give yourself permission to lie.
	You won't have an honest conversation with your siblings about these things.
	You won't have an honest conversation with your parents about these things.
	You didn't have an honest conversation with your firstborn about these things.
	And I can't tell you what to do, but I can tell you, don't lie to yourself about what you're doing.
	I can't tell you whether you should or should not have these conversations, but you need to be fully conscious of the fact that you're choosing to lie your ass off if you don't.
	Now, again, if you choose to lie your ass off, I can understand the reason for that too.
	And I'm not telling you whether you should or shouldn't have these conversations.
	What I am telling you is that you should not lie to yourself about them.
	If you say, look, I'm too terrified.
	of the corruption of my siblings to have an honest conversation with them about how I was brutally abused as a child.
	I'm too frightened of my parents' negative reaction if I have a conversation with them or decide not to have them in my life because they're unrepentant, brutal child abusers.
	Right? My issue is not whether you tell the truth externally.
	My issue is that you tell the truth internally, if that makes sense.
	You know.
	you.
	I totally understand what you're saying.
	The reason why you're tortured about what happened with your daughter is that you did not tell the truth, but then you acted out the truth in a way that was bewildering and upsetting to her.
	You're like the guy who's mad at someone at the dinner table.
	And you're totally smiling and making jokes.
	And then someone says something and you just flip over the table and storm out.
	And people are like, well, that was fucking weird.
	He was fine.
	And then he flipped out.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	And you were fine because you're like, no, I'm going to grit my teeth.
	I'm going to not inflict this negative stuff on my daughter.
	It's not her fault.
	And then you flipped out on her wedding day.
	You flipped the table.
	Towards the end of the meal while smiling and joking before, that makes you look kind of nutty and it makes you look unsafe to people because they don't know the context.
	Now, if people knew, well, the reason I'm angry at the table is because this man had sex with my wife three times last week and I just found out about it.
	It's like, but then what's all the smiley stuff before?
	Thank you.
	Your daughter has no context for what you did on her wedding day.
	So you just look unstable, like you're just a table flipper for no reason.
	Thank you.
	And I'm not, again, this is not a criticism, oh, you should have told her or whatever.
	It's just I'm trying to explain to you the mechanics by which this came to be.
	That you're smiling and joking and laughing.
	And then you're flipping tables and storming out with no context and people think, well, is this guy, like, mentally unbound?
	Like, what the hell?
	Like, what the hell?
	And because you don't know the cause, you keep rooting around in your head saying, well, gee, what's going on?
	What's going on?
	What's going on?
	What happened?
	What happened?
	I'm tortured.
	I'm tortured.
	She won't answer.
	She won't answer, right?
	And again, I don't know what you should or shouldn't have done because these are horribly complicated and difficult situations.
	Mostly the fault of your parents.
	I mean, part of your parents' sadism is having these crack babies in the house and thus putting you and your four siblings under a regimen of sleep deprivation that would actually be illegal in the state of war.
	Like, that would be a war crime to keep people awake that much.
	That's a form of torture.
	So it's all kinds of messed up.
	But I guess they were getting well paid for having the babies in the house.
	Because that's what foster parents do, is they get well paid, usually by the government.
	Usually. I don't know for sure, but that's generally the case.
	You know?
	So, I can only shine the light on.
	I can't tell you which way to go.
	I give you a flashlight, right?
	The flashlight is, this is what happened with your daughter.
	You gritted your teeth, you hit one thing too much, and you acted out.
	And I understand that.
	I sympathize with that.
	But that's, I think, what happened.
	And then you had to make up a narrative called, well, I was being manipulative and so on.
	And it's like, no, you were manipulative because you weren't the one telling your daughter.
	Exactly what the issue was.
	I can't walk down the aisle with the guy who fucked my wife and stole my kid.
	Or however, you put it delicately or whatever.
	Or, if you don't want to have that conversation, then you grit your teeth and you walk down the aisle.
	But your behavior looks unhinged because there's no context for it.
	Now, of course, she would then go to her mother after the wedding, or maybe during, but let's say after the wedding, or she gets back to the honeymoon, or maybe she's talking, and she's like...
	What the hell was going on with Dad?
	Now, would your mother say, well, he's upset because I cheated on him, and then I kept you from him for years, and he had to spend all this money on lawyers, and it was only by the luck of the court, right?
	She's not going to say that.
	What's she going to say?
	It's hard to say.
	You know it's not hard to say.
	Or it may be hard to say, but it's not hard to know.
	Yeah, oh, he's unstable.
	This is why I couldn't stay with him.
	He's got this volatile temper.
	He's random.
	He's, you know, this is who your father is.
	It's never going to change.
	She's going to, I assume, I don't know for sure, but I'm going to assume that she's just going to badmouth you so that she's not going to have to give your daughter the context of why you were upset.
	Because then she'd have to undo all of the potential bad-mouthing.
	I think you mentioned earlier in the conversation, she's going to have to undo all the, quote, bad-mouthing that she did earlier on.
	She's going to have to say, yeah, I kind of alienated you from your father because I didn't want to take responsibility for my own horrible decisions.
	And I kept you from him and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	And I demand you, I demand you, you call the guy who cucked your dad because of what I did.
	You call him dad and call your dad by his first name.
	Like, she's not gonna, your ex-wife is absolutely not gonna undo all of that.
	She's gonna escalate and she's gonna make, so it's not just, well, my daughter just decided not to talk to me for six years.
	I assume, I assume that your ex-wife or maybe other people or whatever are all whispering in her ear so that nobody's bad choices get revealed.
	And it could be that after almost 30 years of your ex-wife bad-mouthing you, if that's what she did, that it's, like, it's hardened.
	It's just, it is the way that it is.
	And now she's married, which means she's made a marital choice and she's having a kid based upon all of this corruption.
	I mean, it's...
	You know, there's not, you know, in word processors or in games...
	Like there's these undoes, right?
	Control Z or edit undo, right?
	Undo, undo, undo.
	Or you can go back to a saved game in a video game.
	There's all of these infinite levels and layers of undo.
	That ain't life, as you know.
	There's a lot of stuff you cannot undo.
	Some guy smokes for 40 years, he can't undo that damage.
	There's no control Z on each cigarette, right?
	There's no edit undo.
	And your choice...
	To not tell the truth to your daughter about the most salient circumstances of her life.
	Good or bad or indifferent, you did make that choice to not tell her the truth.
	And then, because she didn't know the truth, you looked like a table flipper at a very nice dinner party.
	And I just need to give you that cause and effect.
	Not so that you kick yourself, but just so you know what happened and why.
	And what's going on in your life right now is your kids are seeing you break bread with people who viciously abused you as a child and continue to abuse you by rejecting and gaslighting the truth in the moment.
	That's not good for them.
	My daughter will not see me in a situation where I'm disrespected or have to lie.
	She just won't.
	She won't see me in that.
	I will not have her see me in that situation.
	So, when you say to your kids, my parents beat me thousands of times as a child, implements belts, rolling pins, slippers, whatever it was, right?
	Or probably a combination of things.
	And then they're like, hey, we're heading over to grandma and grandpa's place for Christmas.
	Oof. Now, again, whether you should or shouldn't go, I don't know.
	It's complicated.
	But you've got to tell the truth about it, that you do that not out of a bond.
	You don't do that out of a bond.
	You just do that out of fear and blowback and the fear that if you take a stand with your parents, your siblings are going to side with them and you're going to be alone.
	And the only honesty that matters is honesty with the self, because that's the only thing we genuinely have control over.
	If that makes sense.
	No, it does.
	But you're teaching your children that bullying works.
	And you're teaching your children that people with diametrically opposite values, you protect children, your parents beat children, people with diametrically opposite values, people whom by your own values are evil, should be welcomed into your home.
	That's a little confusing.
	I think.
	I think.
	And if you can have an honest conversation with your kids and say, yeah, you know what?
	My parents bullied me.
	They beat me.
	They tortured me.
	They kept me awake for days and had crack babies stacked like cordwood in the house.
	They're just, you know, kind of monstrous.
	But I'm scared of them.
	I don't want to tell them the truth.
	And I'm scared of my siblings.
	And that's an honest statement, right?
	Yeah. And if you decide not to tell your children that, that's fine.
	I mean, again, I can't tell you, right?
	The truth is not a sword to be drawn at all costs, no matter what, right?
	I get all of that.
	But I just don't want you making up stuff like, well, I was mad at my daughter because she was manipulating me.
	That my concern is the narrative about these things.
	Or I have a bond with my parents.
	You don't have a bond with your parents.
	You're just scared of them because they're abusive.
	It's a trauma bond.
	It's Stockholm Syndrome.
	It's PTSD.
	Whatever you want to call it, right?
	But it's not some loving bond because they're child abusers and you can't love child abusers, especially if they're unrepentant and continue the abuse with gaslighting and whatever aggression keeps you from telling the truth to them now.
	Can't love child abusers any more than you can love A babysitter who beat the hell out of your children.
	You're more angry with the guy who your wife voluntarily chose to sleep with than you are with your parents who beat up children regularly.
	You're more angry with the guy who slept with your wife than the parents Who led you into that disaster without giving you any helpful or positive or protective feedback?
	So, I just say stop protecting the abusers.
	Tell them the truth or don't tell them the truth, but let's not make up all this causality regarding why you're doing what you're doing, this bond thing, or, you know, well, my daughter was so manipulative and it's like, no.
	You didn't have that honest leadership conversation about walking down the aisle with who?
	You know, as a parent, it's your job to know your kids.
	Now, if you were completely shocked by the fact that your daughter asked you and her stepfather to walk down the aisle, it means that you were deficient as a parent because you didn't know your kid.
	And that was something that most people could see a mile coming.
	Most people would say, okay, So she had one biological father.
	She didn't see much as a little kid.
	And then she has another father who she actually calls dad who raised her.
	Could this be something that's going to be an issue in terms of walking down the aisle?
	Everyone and their dog could see that coming from a mile away, but you claim to be pig ignorant because there was a rehearsal dinner where this wasn't mentioned and blah, blah, blah.
	Still your job to know as a parent, right?
	It's like if your kid is suddenly bullied at school and they come home all depressed and angry and scuffed and dirty.
	It's your job to sit down and say, okay, well, what's going on?
	What happened?
	You know, you're unhappy.
	Like, what's the situation?
	Blah, blah, blah, right?
	That's your job as the parent.
	It's your job as a parent to know these things.
	And blaming your daughter for what you as a parent are supposed to know is not the right approach.
	And so I just, you know, and listen, I have to have this discipline with myself as well.
	Other people have to have this discipline with me as well, so this is not me in any kind of superior way saying, well, by gosh, I can't believe you would ever lie.
	I mean, I lie to myself and people around me.
	We all have to watch each other's backs.
	And all I'm saying is that this was a situation that your parents contributed to, that you contributed to, your daughter is the innocent victim, and I really can't stand it when parents say, That their kids are at fault.
	Right? So, part of the way, part of the price of you giving yourself permission to call yourself stupid and bad as a kid is you call your adult child manipulative and deceptive.
	Right? It's part of the same pattern.
	Right now, again, I get that your daughter's an adult and that's sort of a different situation, but it's your job to know what's on your kids' minds.
	And if you don't know, that's still on you.
	And this was an obvious And so, we just have to have that relentless goal of just being really honest with ourselves about why we're doing what we're doing and not making up stories that coincidentally seem to get us off the hook.
	Does that sort of make sense?
	I agree with most of what you said.
	Quite honestly, I'm not saying I shouldn't have known that the situation was going to come up, but I don't think anybody other than maybe her mom...
	Maybe her mom didn't even know.
	Maybe my daughter didn't even know.
	Maybe it was something that she decided at the last minute, but...
	Well, okay, let me ask you this.
	If you heard this story from someone else, right?
	If you heard, well, there's a kid...
	She's got one guy she calls dad who raised her for the most part, but there's another guy who's a biological father who she didn't see much for years at a time who should walk her down the aisle.
	Can you understand that that would be a complicated question?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Okay, so that's all I'm saying.
	Yeah, and in hindsight, it's obvious to me, but at the time, it...
	Quite honestly, it didn't even dawn on me.
	And you're absolutely right.
	I have been lying by omission.
	I just never looked at that that way.
	I never thought I was lying.
	I just thought I was keeping the peace or trying to cause...
	Because I could just vanish.
	I mean, I'm all but happy.
	I could just...
	I have my family.
	I could just carry on and do my thing.
	No, no, listen, and I really want to be clear about this.
	The fact that you were lying and keeping the peace, both of those things can be true.
	Right? My concern is that you only talk about keeping the peace and not saying, I chose to lie in order to keep the peace.
	Right? It's the lying part that seems to be less conscious for you.
	You know, when you said, I didn't want to bad mouth.
	My ex.
	And remember, I said, well, I'm not really sure how telling the truth is badmouthing.
	Now, you might say, well, I chose to lie about my ex to my daughter because my ex is a scary, vengeful person, and I just didn't want to, you know, get back into a situation of conflict.
	Okay, and I can understand that, and I'm not going to give you some lecture about tell the truth at all costs.
	I don't live that way.
	I don't live that way, so I'm not going to lecture you to live that way.
	But what I am saying is that...
	Don't call it bad-mouthing.
	Don't just call it keeping the peace.
	You're choosing to lie, and there may be practical reasons for that.
	I'm not going to argue with you about those practical reasons because it's complicated, but you are choosing to lie.
	Yeah. That's all I'm saying, and you have to be conscious of choosing to lie so that you can manage the outcomes.
	Because if you say, look, I'm choosing to lie, and I'm going to shield from my daughter negative consequences of decisions that weren't hers, then you have to...
	Shut up and walk down the aisle with her stepdad.
	But again, that's the table-flipping thing, which comes out of nowhere for her, if that makes sense.
	I really appreciate that analogy because I'd never thought about it like that.
	And I can see her viewpoint now.
	This just came out of nowhere like I was some kind of crazy person.
	And quite honestly, I'd never thought about it like that before.
	Well, good.
	I'm glad that helps.
	So, it's most of what I wanted to get across.
	How has the conversation been for you as a whole?
	Good. Thank you.
	You are very welcome.
	Listen, I don't know what you should do.
	I really do, but I think, you know, talk about this with your wife, maybe with your kids, because you say they're all adults, so they can handle this kind of stuff.
	And listen, man, what you're facing here is, I don't want to trivialize it by saying it's common, but it's a very common, we all have to figure out.
	How much truth are we going to say in the world?
	Because there's a lot of volatile people out there living off lies, getting resources off lies, getting bullying power off lies, dominating people, and getting their way.
	And if we choose to lie to keep the peace, that is a subjugation.
	It's a form of enslavement and is a form of humiliation.
	And that doesn't mean that we should never lie to keep the peace.
	Right? Because again, that's complicated.
	And we all have to make some compromises in a volatile world full of some pretty bad people who will try to mess you up if you tell the truth about everything.
	Right? So we have, you know, especially if we're fathers, we got responsibilities today.
	So I'm just saying that you've got to be clear in your mind about what you're doing and just not make up stuff like, well, you know, my daughter was just manipulating me and that's why I got angry.
	It's like, no, it's more than that.
	Right? So anyway, I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
	And I really, really do appreciate the call today.
	And I really do appreciate.
	The massive improvement that you have gone through from how you were parented to how you parent.
	It's a beautiful thing to see, and I really respect and admire you for that.
	Well, thank you, Steph, and keep doing what you're doing.
	I appreciate that, man.
	Let me know how it goes.
	Yep, thank you.
	Bye-bye.

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