Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

April 12, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:17:12

I HATE HAPPY COUPLES! Freedomain Call In

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	I'll start with the message and then we'll go from there.
	Alright. I called in around six months ago.
	I was not doing very well with me losing my first employment and the business I was a part of not doing very well.
	You gave some direction about sticking with my at-the-time mentor to establish a new career, but I can say that when I called you was definitely not only a bad time, but also quite ineffective given the stress and dissociation I had to maintain daily.
	I was focused entirely on the how in our previous conversation.
	And was not seeking answers to pressing questions.
	The result was a likely frustrating and forgettable experience as I brought my anxieties into your life.
	I seek to remedy that, but also to have a genuine, honest conversation, which is still very rare for me.
	I have some questions that time away from the death spiral of my inner parents has illuminated, and I'm seeking your valuable input.
	Things have changed since July, with the ultimate step ironically being to do less.
	I ditched the gurus and mentors and pulled back from all the relationships I had.
	There was no one I was close to, and all of my social circles were built on lies I had made for approval.
	Upon telling them, my social circles, of my deception, I was invariably removed from them, as expected.
	I now work happily and have more time for philosophy, and hopefully soon, joy and progress towards joy.
	The core principle behind my need to lie to these groups to gain acceptance was acceptance.
	This never worked.
	Nobody valued me anywhere, especially not my parents.
	My parents taught me little.
	They bought us, my siblings, things, but never examined what we wanted with any level of curiosity.
	A core theme I've tried to square personally from your work is that children want to be comforted and loved by their parents, but I can't recall a time when I distinctly wanted anything to do with them.
	Despite my clear memories of events, I can't remember a time in my life, fondly or with joy, at all.
	Not a time I'd return to or a moment with my family I wish I could go back to.
	The same feeling exists when I think of the company of others, whether it's friends or family.
	Frankly, I hate them.
	Everyone, and I hate my experience of living up till now.
	You mentioned a distinct distance from my anger and emotion in general on our call.
	Up until the past few months, I didn't even feel anything.
	I find myself unable to muster up the bandwidth for even the most basic curiosity towards anyone anymore.
	I feel burnt out by the idea before I even do it.
	This has been quite the preamble, so I'll just dive into my first question.
	My parents would die if I asked them to.
	If I defood, ran off, died of a heroin binge, they would have been tracking me the entire time and would pay for my funeral.
	They swear up and down that they would do anything for me and that they would weather any storm to ensure my safety and well-being.
	I can guarantee they would.
	For all intents and purposes, they love me, even though the relationship is built essentially on bribery, i.e., they buy me stuff to placate me.
	And keep me in the home.
	I've conversed with them before about history and they even know my stance on their parenting.
	They won't change and I can't even imagine what restitution might look like or whether restitution is even necessary.
	I'm at a loss right at the finish line.
	How can I consolidate that loyalty, that desire to do what's right by me with how much ire I feel for them for not teaching me a damn thing about anything?
	It's a self-answering question, just typing it out, but I don't have the bandwidth or courage to answer it myself.
	Should time allow in our conversation, I have a few more questions about women specifically.
	My parents didn't teach me jack shit, just left me to my own devices and said do whatever as long as it's not drugs.
	I have no earthly clue how to engage someone intimately, either as a friend or romantically.
	It's sometimes even manifested as a direct and scathing hatred of women as a whole, like real bonafide hatred.
	I'm 28, and every one, women, I've tried to get with has called me a funny friend and wants nothing to do with me.
	I'm dead certain this has to do with my lack of real, genuine emotion over the past three decades, but I'm stuck still.
	The hatred I feel is towards my mom, but even still, it manifests and shifts blame from her to women as a concept.
	I have no idea what I'm doing, and have no examples but pick-up content, self-help gurus, and red pill YouTubers.
	I'm infinitely grateful for the time you gave me last time we spoke.
	And I'm hoping that the intermittent time has rendered me more able to not only have a genuine conversation, but also to provide you with a provoking, deep, and meaningful one too.
	I hope we can talk soon, and thanks again for all you do, Steph.
	Well, I appreciate that, and how do you feel about what you've written and talking about it?
	It's provoking in me a little bit of some frustration that I ran into a long time ago.
	After I had my first call with you, it was, I would always over-explain myself to my parents about anything, right?
	They would never listen to me, so I had to repeat myself and repeat myself to try to get some validation from them.
	And the process of me trying to explain stuff to people has, it's like pretty anxiety-provoking.
	I get really verbose, and it just feels like I say too much.
	I've already talked too much, you know?
	Just having to share.
	This stuff provokes in me a very deep resentment towards the idea of having to explain stuff.
	I guess, I don't know, I guess I just think my parents are stupid.
	I mean, how...
	Sorry. Right, okay.
	So, what are the specific problems that you're aiming to solve in your life?
	Well, the big one has been depolarizing a lot.
	I can explain a little bit of backstory, just a little bit more preamble.
	After I talked to you, I was working for a guy doing web design, and it was a Joe Blow.
	It was nothing.
	It was crap.
	There was no money to be made.
	The work was minimal.
	It could be outsourced on Fiverr.
	So I picked up a shift at a local pretty decently high-end cocktail joint.
	I wanted to try to be a bartender.
	It felt more social.
	It got me out of...
	My small social circles, it got me out and about.
	And I've been doing that for the past six months.
	And it's going to be pivoting into like a restaurant consultancy gig and a cocktail program.
	And it works going well.
	But from doing that, I realized that at my previous employment, I was running into issues with socializing and work that were intrinsically tied to basically the landmine of my parents and my parents.
	Spending time with my parents.
	For instance, when I was at work, I would have issues with communicating.
	When I was on my own, I could do just fine.
	But when I was tasked with talking to people or sharing information at work, I would treat work like it was my parents.
	And so I would black out.
	I would not communicate.
	I would just turn into the eunuch zombie that I would be around my parents.
	And it caused me to basically lose my job.
	I lost my job because of my lack of...
	I'm not going to try to discover a reason to it, but I know where it came from.
	I don't know how to socialize around people that aren't my parents.
	So being out in the world, I'm just getting punished for acting like I'm around my parents at all times.
	So removing myself from that, depolarizing work, To not make it feel like I'm around my parents and similarly with my relationships.
	And, well, I don't have any right now, but that would be the goal.
	The goal would be to depolarize and understand why I act, maybe not even why, just changing the way I act around.
	Diffusing the bomb in the brain, I guess, is the best way to say it.
	To use stuff from your work.
	Diffusing the bomb in the brain.
	Most effective.
	I feel like I'm making decent headway on that.
	But there's just some stuff that when I run into it, I'm thinking, I'm journaling, and I just say, I can't touch this.
	I just feel like I don't have the confidence to say yes.
	To put an answer to paper.
	Like I said in the message.
	The answer is probably pretty self-evident, but I still don't have the confidence or the...
	I don't know.
	Sorry if I'm not very cogent.
	No, I get it.
	This is complicated stuff.
	So you said, of course, that the girls view you as a what?
	Like you get stuck in the friend zone?
	Tons, tons friend.
	So give me an example of that.
	How does that look?
	Sure. It's...
	Well, I'll...
	It'll be either...
	I've tried being...
	Catholic. I've tried talking to women online.
	I've tried talking to women in public spaces, bars.
	Generally, they think I'm funny.
	I'm pretty quick-witted.
	They talk to me and the conversation is usually pretty full of banter.
	But when it comes to escalation or when it comes to building romantic chemistry, what ends up happening is I'll go on a date with them.
	It'll be very cordial.
	There'll be a lot of back and forth banter.
	There'll be a lot of laughter, smiling.
	And then after the fact, I'll realize that I didn't make any romantic moves or there would just be an odd feeling.
	And then I'll go for a follow-up and it will be, I don't see you that way.
	You're not that.
	I don't feel that way about you.
	It'll be just, let's stay friends.
	Even though I've made my direct, it's not like I'm not telling them my intentions.
	I'm not saying, well, let's just go hang out.
	I'll say, hey, let's go on a date.
	Right? So it's not like I'm not.
	Being direct about it.
	But the response is invariably, I don't want to talk to you like that.
	I'm not interested in you like that.
	And I don't have a lot of feedback outside of those messages, right?
	It's not like they're going to say, hey, you're ugly, or hey, you're handsome, or something like that.
	You know what I mean?
	I've never gotten any direct feedback on dating from anybody.
	So I'm just out blind.
	I'm searching the woods with no compass.
	Okay. Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, I was just going to say, that's invariably how it turns out.
	Okay, got it.
	And when was the last time that happened?
	Two weeks ago.
	The good news is, after moving away from all my work, I really found it...
	Once I was totally de-stressed from all these unforced obligations that I was participating in, it was a lot easier for me to just...
	Realize that I could handle rejection decently well.
	So, you know, I'm behind a bar.
	Sometimes there are women just, and they like talking to you and they'll give you their number, right?
	And I know it's not high quality women behind the bar.
	I'm just talking to them for the sake of practice.
	But two weeks ago at the bar, and then a few more weeks ago, there was a woman at the local Catholic church that I was talking to through mutual friends, and she said the same thing.
	So it's been a couple of...
	I've been pretty diligent in trying to pursue relationships.
	It just invariably ends up the same way.
	Right. And tell me about the quality or lack of quality of the women that you're dating or trying to date.
	Yeah. One word would be...
	At all costs, man.
	Especially before the past couple months, it was just any woman who would smile in my direction, I would try to pursue.
	Invariably. They were never quality.
	And what would you say about them was not quality?
	I'm not disagreeing with you, of course, right?
	I just want to make sure I understand what you're thinking is.
	Sure thing, sure thing.
	So, in my eyes, I really narrowed it down from...
	I really narrowed it down from, like, trad background, healthy family, to basically whether they're aware, not programmed, and have a sense of joy and optimism.
	You know?
	That's very recently.
	And all the women that I've been dating and trying to date since I made that revelation have not fit into that category.
	Let's just say that.
	Oh, so you have a standard for women, but you're not applying it.
	I was not applying it up until recently, because up until recently, I was just dating anyone.
	Two months ago is when I started thinking about this specifically, and I looked back on all the women that I had been dating.
	I was just trying to get sex, frankly.
	Okay, so you've been in philosophy for a couple of years, and you started applying some moral filters to the women you wanted to date as of two months ago.
	Yep. How many dates have you had in the last two months?
	One, technically, but it was not really a date.
	It was a hangout session that turned into me and her talking after the party.
	It was like a work thing.
	So zero?
	Zero, yeah.
	So I'm not sure what the issue is.
	You had bad standards before, and it got you nowhere, and now you have yet to implement your better standards, or you are implementing them, but you can't find...
	A woman that you like.
	Do I have that correct?
	That's about the short of it, yeah.
	That actually is pretty...
	Yes. There's one more wrinkle to it, though, which I'm sure might not be too relevant, but I...
	I have a...
	When I see...
	I don't know how to say it.
	When I see a woman...
	I kind of have a gut reaction of anger when I see women now.
	I'm not really sure how to say that.
	Do you mean young attractive women or old nuns?
	What are you talking about?
	All women?
	Women having a good time.
	That are happy in families, couples, stuff like that.
	Like resentment towards those that are in couples or talk about relationships that have been engaged in relationships that are...
	Yeah. Like people who seem happy and who seem like they're doing well, is that right?
	Yeah, people that are happy and people that seem like they're doing well.
	Yes. And you feel anger towards them?
	Yes, I feel...
	I know when it happens, but it happens like a reaction.
	I'll just be like, ugh.
	I'll tense up and I'll imagine, I'll just feel anger.
	I'll be like, fuck.
	And then I'll recognize it, and then it'll pass.
	But it still happens.
	It used to be consistent, like I said in my post.
	It was consistent hatred, vitriol, towards happiness, towards people having what I do not have.
	Right. Okay.
	And so what is the thought process, do you think, that's occurring in the anger?
	What are the premises or reasoning that's going on deep down about the anger?
	Well, it really is just sour grapes.
	But it's directed at my mom.
	Because every time I interrogate it, every time I look at the feeling, it's that, oh, I could have that, but I didn't.
	I have no idea how to get it.
	I'm frustrated because that's something that is clearly possible for people that aren't me.
	Oh, so you think the majority of people in relationships are happy and you're just excluded from that happiness?
	Like you see a couple walking down the street, they're laughing, they're holding hands, and you think, wow, they're really happy and my mother kept me from that.
	Is that right?
	That's exactly what the anger is, yeah.
	That's exactly where it comes from.
	And whether or not the couple's actually happy or not, whether they've chosen quality partners, I've seen plenty of horrible relationships in general, but I'm just saying it's more of like the idea.
	It's not the philosophical way.
	So, again, logically, it would make sense to be angry at your mother.
	So why do you think you're angry at the couples?
	And I'm not, you know, it's not a criticism, I'm just curious about why you'd be angry at the couples.
	You know, it's like if my mother starved me to death when I was a kid, I wouldn't get enraged at farmers, right?
	No, I wouldn't.
	I would get enraged at mom.
	But as I mentioned in the call, there's this huge block.
	It's like I know my mom is culpable for this situation that I'm in.
	I know my parents are culpable for the situation that I'm in.
	And I'm like, but it's so much easier to direct that hatred outward than it is to direct it at my parents.
	Well, have you talked to, sorry if we talked about this before, have you Yes, I have.
	And the result is middling to just simply frustrating.
	There's not a lot of...
	They're not the kind of people who will be swayed by any level of conversation.
	There's no restitution to be made.
	I'll get a...
	Oh, so you're giving me all of your conclusions.
	Can you tell me more specifically what happened?
	In the conversation, like, what did you say and what did they say and so on.
	Right, right.
	Sure thing.
	So, I would bring up to them specifically that, hey, you guys didn't teach me anything.
	What was with this parenting style?
	I don't have any skills.
	I don't have any...
	My brother is living at home still.
	He's a few years older than me.
	He's still living at home.
	What was going on, guys?
	Couldn't you pop open a parenting book?
	Couldn't you have, you know, asked somebody, gotten us involved in...
	It would depend on the context.
	I've only done this a couple of times and it was a long time ago.
	I haven't done it since.
	When was the last time you did it?
	Six months ago.
	About June or July of this year.
	Or of last year, I guess.
	And how many times have you had the conversations as a whole?
	There was a good month or two when I would be talking to them every week.
	I would go...
	I was just trying to dig in and force my way through it, even though I felt like I wanted to just get to the bottom of it.
	And eventually they just, they just, okay, so I'll continue with what the conversations look like and then the aftermath of them.
	So this is about a few months ago, so six or seven months ago now, June, July of 2024.
	And this is around the time when I was leaving my old apartment.
	I was, I had lost my job.
	I had lost that.
	The business, and so I was very stressed out.
	So these conversations probably were a lot more emotionally charged than I remember them being.
	So I asked those questions, and they said, well, we bought you stuff.
	We had a boat.
	We had all the games.
	You had all the toys you wanted.
	We went on trips.
	We went on plenty of vacations.
	We put all this stuff on the line for you.
	Is that...
	They never said anything like, oh, you're just being ungrateful.
	They were asking me about what my intentions were with talking about this stuff.
	And I said, well, I mean, you can buy me stuff, but that doesn't help me now.
	That never helped me at all.
	I don't remember spending time with you guys.
	Sorry, so you would bring up issues and they would say, what is your purpose in talking about this?
	What are you trying to achieve?
	Yeah, there would be some of that.
	Do you know why they were asking you that?
	I couldn't answer that.
	Well, I can tell you.
	So, I don't know if this is the case, since you're obviously a lot younger than me, but when I was a kid in school, they would say, we're going to watch this movie, right?
	Watch this movie on geology or mitosis or something like that, right?
	And... I'm sorry?
	Just bring a TV in and put it in front of you guys, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And so then...
	The kids, we would always ask the same thing.
	Is this going to be on the test?
	Oh, okay.
	Right? And why would we ask that?
	Because you...
	I mean, it doesn't...
	If it's not relevant to the test, which is what you're there in the class for, why would you pay attention to it?
	Why would you care?
	Yeah, I don't care.
	Right? I'm just going to mess around with my friends, pass notes, I'm going to space out.
	Or maybe if I'm interested, I'll watch.
	But it's not particularly important, right?
	What are the consequences of failing to pay attention, right?
	So your parents were simply asking, what are the consequences of not paying attention?
	What are the consequences of this, right?
	That's all they're asking.
	Will it matter?
	If we don't listen.
	Will there be any consequences?
	That make sense?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	Now, if you were to say, well, you know, this determines the future of our relationships, then they at least have to pretend to listen, right?
	Yes. And I did that.
	They know that they knew at the time that I was planning on just leaving straight up.
	And so, that was near the end of the last conversation that we had.
	And the relationship since then has, in the moments that I've talked to them, has pivoted to them just trying to do anything to keep me around.
	Like, they are, as I mentioned, that loyalty, quote-unquote.
	They're basically trying to do anything to keep me around.
	Right. Okay, so what do they do to keep you around?
	Um... They're like...
	Be curious.
	They're scared to talk to me.
	If I were to order them to do a cartwheel and stand on their hands, they are just subservient, totally dominated by me.
	I haven't done anything with this, but what I'm saying is I could ask them to come drive to Maine or some random state in the middle of the United States, and they would do it right now.
	If it meant that they would be able to keep talking to me.
	You know what I mean?
	Okay, so, but they have not admitted fault or taken responsibility.
	Is that right?
	Nope. They will say that we did that, sure.
	There's nothing we can do about it now.
	Of course, we did the best we could, which I pushed back on all of these things.
	And so they just threw their hands up and were like, okay, we lose.
	It's like they gave up on reasoning.
	They gave up on it being a conversation.
	They were treating it more like a conflict.
	And they just threw their hands up and they said, okay, you win.
	That's what it feels like.
	So what does it mean that you win?
	It just means that they're still not curious.
	There's no difference made.
	It's just that they're just going to submit to my will to keep me around.
	I guess that's kind of circular.
	What does it mean to say submit to your will?
	What does it mean?
	I don't know, frankly.
	I don't know.
	It just means that instead of them being I don't know.
	I just see them giving up and just not trying to...
	Just like, please don't hurt me is what it looks like.
	It's like they're cowering and they're saying, please don't hurt me or something.
	That's what it feels like in my brain.
	I'm like, this is weird.
	I don't like this.
	I don't, I'm not, that's not very philosophical, but I, that's, I don't know.
	So, what was their perception of how important this conversation was for you?
	Oh, man, I have no idea.
	I didn't ask them, frankly, I didn't have the, I didn't ask, I never asked them what the importance of the conversation was to them.
	No, no, to you.
	Oh, it was, In my perception, I feel like if they could care, they might, but they didn't.
	It was just another thing.
	It was just some other thing.
	Okay, so they did not perceive the conversation as very important to you.
	I know we're guessing, but does that make sense?
	No, yeah.
	I would say that that's kind of clocked by experience, too.
	over the past few decades, these people have been stuck in their ways, unchanging like rocks.
	They are, there is moss growing on them.
	I never seen them change their tone.
	It's always been something along the lines of, well, things are the way they are.
	I asked my dad how he met his wife and he says, well, it just happens.
	there's no agency involved.
	I asked, I told them at one point, Hey, you know, maybe my, there was a family member who was choosing a partner that I didn't agree with.
	It was a bad situation and it was not smart for him.
	I didn't believe it.
	So I told them and my family was like, okay, but,
	you know, it is what it is.
	You get what you get.
	Right. Yeah, they don't really think that.
	Yeah. Well, not for them.
	Unchanging. No, it's not.
	Absolutely. I'm sitting in the moments when I'm at home, I would be sitting there and saying, holy mackerel, this is hell.
	Because I'm looking for change.
	And I can't extract any essence of change from any of the people in the home or anybody around me.
	This is hell.
	They don't believe it is, but I believe it is.
	Got it.
	So they look at me, and they say, You are overreacting.
	If you say our names, I would appreciate that.
	Sorry. My apologies.
	That's the last time that'll happen.
	Hey, you.
	We don't get why you're so mad at us.
	We're just doing our own thing.
	It is what it is.
	We can't change the past.
	What are you getting so mad about?
	That kind of stuff.
	Just unchanging windmill sitting in...
	Yeah, straight up.
	Programmed to death.
	And it's unbearable.
	It's horribly...
	Every conversation would do the same thing.
	I would be playing the same RTR conversation from the book five times.
	And it's like it was the new conversation every single time.
	It was like 50 First Dates, that movie with Adam Sandler where the girl forgets every date.
	You know what I mean?
	It's like, fuck, man.
	Total and complete just...
	Insanity fuel.
	My mind is melting in my brain.
	It's coming out of my ears.
	So that's the feeling, right?
	Okay. And so what has the consequence been of these conversations not being satisfying to you?
	So there's a few that I can think of off the top of my head.
	The first one is that it kind of would Continue to reinforce the fact that I would have these conversations where I would be explaining myself to them in 10 different ways over and over and over again.
	And so I would bring that habit out to bear and I would get punished for it in the real world because I would just talk and talk and talk.
	But mentally, it was just exhausting.
	I don't feel like I have any will to change my environment, to change the world around me, to...
	It affects change positively or negatively in somebody else.
	One of the things I felt a deep desire for was to have somebody have an emotional reaction to me that actively changes the way they think about me.
	Have them like me or have them hate me.
	But I can't think of anybody in my life that actively hates me or actively likes me that I've had any kind of impact on.
	And so...
	I go home and I see my parents where there's no change.
	I can't affect any kind of change on them.
	Period. This is a long time ago.
	This is like, you know, when I was still living with them.
	Right? But, you know, I can't affect any change on them.
	Can I affect change on anybody else?
	And, lo and behold, the most meaningless impact I can have on a woman is that friend zone thing.
	You know what I mean?
	Where they're, okay, they don't care about me either way.
	They don't hate me.
	They don't like me.
	It's just there was net neutral interaction and then everybody moves on.
	If you forget, it's done.
	Same thing happens with friend groups.
	I don't really socialize with anybody from work.
	It's not really my crowd.
	But as part of the job, I talk to people and it's always a pleasant interaction there.
	And people at work tend to value my dedication and skill.
	At, you know, bartending and serving and doing all these things.
	And so I have positive interactions there, and they remember me, which has been a huge, albeit kind of small, positive to being out on my own again.
	But in general, when it comes to actually forming these relationships, the fact that I can't affect any change on, have not affected change, or been left an imprint on anybody in my life, historically speaking.
	And that leads me to resent them, too, as I mentioned.
	I just don't have anybody.
	You know what I mean?
	I don't have any of that.
	And so that would be the biggest effect of all this, would be a lack of genuine connection or a feeling of being able to affect positive change around me.
	Helplessness, basically.
	Right. No, I get that.
	So, I'm a little confused.
	You said the relationship is unbearable?
	That might have been just me blabbering.
	No, no, it's fine.
	I'm not trying to catch you out or anything here.
	I'm just trying to make sure I understand where you're coming from.
	Sorry, when I say the relationship was unbearable, I wouldn't call what I have with my parents a relationship.
	It's just that the closeness, the proximity to them, the proximity of being near them or being involved with them was unbearable, is unbearable for extended periods of time.
	Yeah. Okay.
	I get that, and I wasn't criticizing with the language, but if it's unbearable, why do you bear it?
	It's not very philosophical, but I was trying to answer the question that I posed in the message before I took the call on, and the one thing I thought of was that my parents, despite the quality of the connection,
	still the only social experience that I have.
	And if I were to throw them away completely, just completely defu, I would lose the last bit of connection I have to anybody.
	And that scares me.
	I felt fear when I thought about that.
	Okay. So, it's sort of like if you come to a nutritionist and you say, I'm really, really overweight.
	But I don't want to change my diet.
	I don't want to change my diet.
	Yeah, what does the nutritionist say?
	It's no negative judgment.
	It seems like it's a fact, right?
	He says, tough shit.
	You've got to change your diet if you want to lose the weight.
	You've got to drop the calories.
	You've got to lower the calories and get the work up.
	And if somebody says, well, I'm scared because my friends are all fat.
	And if I lose the weight, then I'm not going to have any friends.
	And the doctor says, well, in this case, I think the doctor would probably tell me, well, do you want fat friends?
	I mean, the kind of people I want to be around would probably say, you want fat friends?
	With a question mark and an eyebrow raise.
	And I would say, no, I don't really want fat friends now that I'm thinking about it.
	I'd rather have healthy friends with healthy relationships, too, that aren't fat and gross.
	And if you say, well, I don't want to, and I've told my friends, I've told my friends, man, you guys have to stop eating so badly.
	You have to stop losing weight, and you have to stop trying to get me to be fat.
	And I've been talking about this, them, for years!
	Years. Years I've been telling these people, you gotta lose weight, you gotta eat better, you gotta stop, you know, trying to make me gain weight again, like I'm not happy.
	Right? Right.
	So, what's the answer?
	Walk away.
	I mean, that's what I would do.
	I would walk away.
	Well, I mean, it's just that if you want to keep around dysfunctional people who don't listen, well, first of all, what incentive do they really have to change?
	That's why I asked about this, like, is it on the test, right?
	That's why I asked.
	So, what are the consequences for people?
	To not listen to you.
	There aren't any, necessarily.
	Well, you keep hanging out, you keep doing your thing, you keep, right?
	I'm just a complainer.
	I'm just like, you know, that's what they would see.
	They'd see, like, the serial complainer who just sits there.
	Guys, really?
	Really, guys?
	You've really got to get philosophical, guys.
	Guys, guys.
	Guys, come on!
	Yeah, seriously, guys.
	You know, and it's like, but they don't want to.
	Of course not.
	Well, I don't know.
	Of course not.
	I think it's really sad.
	But it certainly is a fact that they don't want to, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	It's pitiable.
	It's sad.
	It would suck.
	I hate to see it.
	Well, it would suck for you, but you want to lose weight.
	They don't want to.
	They don't want to lose weight.
	They don't want to lose the weight.
	They don't want to change.
	I like my food.
	I like my parents.
	No, I mean, your parents like being not philosophical, right?
	They're enjoying it pretty, yeah, they're pretty comfortable with it.
	That's what they want, right?
	It's sort of like there was this Scott Adams thing where he's, you know, he's pretty slender and all of that, right?
	And he works out a lot and he said, you know, he was talking to some guy who was overweight and he was like, well, why are you overweight?
	And the guy said, well, I love food.
	And Scott Adams was like, yeah, that's true.
	I don't really care about eating that much, so I'm not a foodie, so I don't love food, so I don't have much of an issue.
	With weight.
	Because I don't love food.
	Right? So, there is no particular issue with people who are not living philosophically.
	There's no consequences, there's no negative outcomes.
	Sorry, that's kind of redundant, but, you know, they can keep doing their thing and nothing really changes, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	It's going to continue.
	So, if people have said they don't want to change, and they're not going to change, if people have said that, and that's okay with you to the point where there's no negative consequences, then it's like, okay, what was your least favorite subject in school?
	They're interchangeable.
	I hated it.
	But let's go with, honestly, Math.
	I like math now, but I hated it in school.
	what's something that you disliked at school and continue to dislike now?
	Honestly, it's hard to say.
	I know it sounds kind of...
	Let's just go with Spanish class or a different language class.
	I just didn't care about that.
	I still don't really care about learning another language.
	So we'll say that.
	So, with Spanish, you did not enjoy learning Spanish, and you still don't enjoy learning Spanish, right?
	Nope. Right.
	So, do you study Spanish?
	No. No, I don't.
	Makes sense, right?
	Right, yeah.
	So, that's you parents with philosophy, right?
	They don't want it, they don't like it, it doesn't do anything for them.
	And so they don't want it, they don't study it, they have no...
	Do you think it's ever going to change, even Spanish?
	No, frankly.
	It might change if there was some big thing that would benefit, right?
	You get some big benefit, like somebody said, oh man, I'll give you a job paying you a million dollars a year, but man, you've got to learn Spanish, right?
	Well, then you might, right?
	Yeah, there'd be a little bit more incentive there, of course, yeah.
	No, there's no internal incentive or drive.
	There's no interest in me to learn Spanish.
	And it kind of feels like for me to interact with my parents would be like the Spanish teacher trying to teach the disinterested me Spanish.
	You know what I mean?
	That's the way I see it now.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	Right. And so the reason that you studied Spanish in school was there are negative consequences for not studying Spanish, right?
	100%. I'd fail the class, and that would not go well.
	Right. And you didn't want to fail the class.
	So it makes sense to me.
	So there were negative consequences, and so you studied advantage.
	Right. Yeah, yeah, okay, okay.
	So with your parents, that's why they asked you, what's your purpose in asking me this?
	Because they wanted to know, well, what are the negative consequences if we don't do it?
	Hyperbolic example.
	What are you going to do?
	Stab me?
	What are you going to do?
	Shoot me?
	It's one of those things.
	It's like if some guy came up and said, give me your wallet or else.
	And he was like 98 pounds and had no weapon.
	Frail. Okay, what's the or else here?
	Or else what?
	You're going to lecture me about Dungeons and Dragons?
	You pick him up and put him in a trash can.
	Right. That's exactly what it is.
	Yeah, so it's not shocking.
	Your parents don't want to do it, and there's no negative consequences for them not doing it because you still hang out with them.
	So they're not going to do it.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	And again, this is like, I'm just looking at it from, I mean, obviously I wish and you wish that they would do it.
	I get that, right?
	I understand that.
	That makes good sense to me.
	So I'm, but, but the fact is they don't want to do it.
	Right. Yeah.
	Thank you.
	And why should they?
	Why should they?
	There's no should to it.
	Well, it's kind of like the Spanish teacher saying, well, man, Spanish is great.
	You should want to learn Spanish.
	And then I say, why?
	Well, no, it's like, but I don't.
	I don't want to learn Spanish.
	You find Spanish to be great, and that's great for you, but I don't find Spanish to be great.
	I don't like it.
	You like it, I don't.
	It's kind of like two opinions against each other.
	It's like, you should, that's kind of like still an opinion, though, and mine's just as, you know, I shouldn't.
	I don't want to.
	There's no one over the other on that one.
	It was like, you should learn to drink water, because if you don't, you'll die.
	Then there you go.
	That's different.
	Well, and it's quite a bit different because, of course, drinking water, you die.
	So let's play this out, right?
	And look, your parents are clearly not motivated by a deep sense of ethics and virtue, right?
	No. Yeah, that's pretty clear.
	Let's go with that.
	For the moment, let's not condemn them for that, right?
	Let's just look at it from a transactional standpoint, because we're seeking to understand people's choices and behaviors, right?
	So we're just seeking to understand.
	So the way to approach these things, I think, is kind of like...
	If you are an anthropologist, right, and you're studying some primitive tribe, you can't really learn about them if all you do is condemn them, right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.
	So you try and approach things from a neutral standpoint and a sort of curiosity standpoint like an anthropologist.
	So we'll try that approach, right, and see if that bears some fruit.
	Does that seem like a good way to start?
	Seems like a good way to start.
	Let's go for it.
	All right, so.
	Your parents, what happens to their social circle if they become philosophical?
	They don't have a social circle, Steph.
	They do not have one.
	They go out and play poker sometimes, but they are reclusive to say the least.
	My dad has maybe one friend, and I feel like the outcome of that would be that they would look at that and say, oh, this is actually...
	Well, this is actually, okay, that's kind of condemnation then, because I'd be putting myself on them.
	Well, you have chosen to avoid philosophy for the sake of company.
	Who are you to nag at your parents for making the exact same choice?
	Right, exactly.
	And so, yeah, they would look philosophically and say, oh, oh, shoot.
	We don't have a social circle.
	That would be maybe, I don't know if that's me putting my perception on them, but that would be my thought.
	Well, most times when you become good after not being good, your social circle is destroyed.
	Oh, okay.
	So they don't have anything to get destroyed necessarily.
	Well, no.
	Sorry, that was a bit of a cheat.
	I apologize for that.
	So they do because they're still married.
	What happens if only one of them decides to become philosophical?
	Oh, fuck!
	Oh, okay.
	Yeah, okay.
	They would be like, oh, oh my, oh my good God.
	This is, look what I did to my children.
	Look at the result of this.
	Who is this man?
	I don't even, I couldn't talk to him about anything of meaning or value.
	I couldn't speak my mind.
	I would go insane.
	This is my mom or my dad, whichever one it is.
	I would go insane.
	If I woke up feeling like I do right now, but I was my mom or my dad, I would freak out.
	It would be insane.
	It's hard for people with a good conscience to understand what it's like to have a bad conscience.
	Right. But having a bad conscience is like being in a storm-tossed sea in a very, very rickety boat.
	You have very little mobility.
	You have very little Chance to change anything, and you were always nervous at blowback.
	Right, right.
	Right, it'd be like somebody saying, well, I really want to use the law while being a criminal.
	Well, you can't really use the law while being a criminal, unless you're in the government already, right?
	Right, absolutely, yeah.
	So what happens to your parents' marriage if only your father...
	Oh, that's a tough one.
	Based on their relationship, I'd say that I don't think they would, I don't think they would, they would not be divorced.
	They would not break up.
	They would not, the relationship would not explode.
	I think if my dad woke up tomorrow and he was philosophically minded, I think it would probably go something along the lines of him going to each member of his extended family and my mom's extended family and basically imploding those social circles.
	You know what I mean?
	Because they all feed into each other's lack of philosophy.
	It's not just my parents.
	It's their brothers.
	It's my uncles.
	It's my cousins on both sides.
	It's everybody, right?
	And so my philosophically-minded father in this case would go to these people, see what I see, but then have the, you know, would bring to bear the result of him separating from them, but with the whole family as opposed to it just being me who's separated from them.
	And whether my mom would like that or not would probably cause a big rift.
	But I think...
	Yeah, if my mom wouldn't change, there would be conflict over that too.
	It's a can of worms for sure, but I think for my dad to move philosophically and refine these relationships in the way that I guess I would, and I keep saying it's about me, but in a way that makes the most sense philosophically,
	he would have to torpedo the relationships with my mom's family and his family.
	Right? Same way I have.
	And that would be stressful.
	If they were both that way, it'd be done.
	Obviously. Obviously.
	But if it was just one of them, it would be chaos.
	It would be total and complete chaos.
	Okay. Would it be a form of infidelity to bring philosophy into a non-philosophical marriage?
	Yep. I would say so.
	I mean, it would be kind of breaking the vows, right?
	Absolutely. In a weird kind of way, right?
	Yeah, you'd be like subverting the contract.
	You'd be like, oh, this contract did not account for this one contingency that could happen when the sun flares up and reduces the absence.
	Well, I think it would be more like saying to your wife, hey, you know this closed marriage we have?
	I think I want an open marriage.
	Ah, no, no, that would be horrible.
	Yeah, I mean, that would not be good, right?
	Yeah, it's not even a marriage at that point.
	Right. Among other things.
	Right. And now, again, obviously I think that people should have philosophical marriages and so on, but we're just trying to figure out what is the...
	They're calculating things from a cost-benefit standpoint.
	And if you try to bring morals to bear on people who are calculating from a cost-benefit standpoint, you'll lose every time.
	Because you're working on different metrics.
	Yeah. You did a show on this at some...
	Recently. I remember either it was recently or I was recently listening to it.
	But it was about people who are motivated by, you know, there's moral actors, there's people who work based on an internal ethic, and then there's people that can simply be swayed based on benefit or outside influence.
	And I was grappling with what exactly that looks like when it comes to...
	You mentioned the example of the guy who had these flare-ups at work and you...
	Strung out his temper at a big meeting and the result was him getting fired or something along those lines.
	And that was an interesting example of that.
	That I was trying to extrapolate what it looks like to what those, you know, I don't, I'm just going to say about what they look like.
	What does that kind of person look like?
	Because it feels like that's everybody I talk to.
	Is this cost benefit?
	You know, is this benefit me in the moment?
	Is this good for me?
	Does this hurt me?
	I mean, I'm doing those calculations too.
	I think everybody is, but they're motivated by it.
	And I think that's exactly what my parents are.
	And there was a point there that I lost in the sauce.
	I apologize.
	No, no, put it up on...
	So, it comes down to the fundamental question, I think, of how evolutionarily friendly is philosophy?
	Oh, not very.
	I think that's quite accurate.
	It is not very friendly from a cost-benefit standpoint.
	Philosophy, in the short run at least, costs you a lot more than it gives you.
	Right. Absolutely.
	Right? Yeah, if my parents were to open the door to philosophy just on a whim, their consciousness unlocks or something, their life would explode.
	Right. Are they Christians?
	You said they have a Catholic history, right?
	Catholic culturally, they'd go to Mass on Christmas and Easter.
	And I would too.
	And then there was a phase from 2020 until 2023 or so when I was trad Christian Catholic guy.
	But I was only really participating in that because I wanted women to talk to me.
	Boy, it doesn't take long to get you to start talking about yourself again, does it?
	Doesn't it?
	Yeah, it's very difficult.
	I'm struggling with that too.
	Right, okay.
	So, the question is, it's always fascinating to me, because everyone claims to have massive amounts of respect for the moral hero, right?
	Right, right, right, yeah.
	I mean, Jesus, Socrates, every, you know, James Bond in a way, right?
	A tough guy who fights for good.
	So, everybody, you know, says, boy, you know, moral heroes are just the greatest thing ever, right?
	And then you say, you know, you could also be a moral hero.
	Oh, God, no.
	What, are you crazy?
	No way.
	That's for church.
	That's not for me.
	And, of course, Jesus and other people were saying, you all should be moral heroes.
	It's not enough to just worship a moral hero in some abstract way.
	You should actually be a moral hero.
	To emulate me, right?
	Like, I remember having this issue with philosophy professors when I was in school, that I would ask them tough questions, they'd get kind of annoyed, and I'd be like, you know that your entire profession is based upon an admiration for people who ask tough questions that are
	Right, yeah.
	Your parents, as Catholics, would of course worship Jesus, right?
	And Jesus was a moral hero who risked everything for virtue, right?
	And do they want that?
	Clearly not.
	Well, I don't think so.
	I don't think so.
	So moral heroes are kind of like doctors.
	You go to doctors, but you don't want to be a doctor.
	If that makes sense.
	That makes sense.
	Okay. And so, that is where they are at.
	In other words, they worship a society founded upon moral heroism, and then whenever they come across a moral hero, they attack and condemn him.
	Or her.
	If that makes sense.
	Yes. That makes sense.
	Yeah, that is kind of where they're at.
	And they are making decisions based upon not moral heroism, Yes.
	And again, we can get mad at them if we want, but these still are the basic facts of the situation.
	Yeah, they're being compelled by those basically evolutionary factors to act as a...
	As they have.
	There's, like you said, no incentive.
	I'm circling back to the beginning.
	There's no incentive there.
	There is no incentive there.
	In fact, I mean, in order for, I mean, it would be like somebody who just cut their calories for no reason.
	Like they just said, I'm going to live on, you know, a thousand calories a day.
	I don't have any reason for it.
	It's just, I mean, that would be masochistic, right?
	I mean, everybody's got to have some kind of reason for why they're cutting calories, at least I would hope so.
	Yeah, like, yeah.
	There would be some incentive, like maybe weight loss or cutting down.
	Yeah, you know, there's those people who believe that if you cut calories, you get to live a whole lot longer, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, but just denying yourself would be, it would be masochistic to just deny yourself for no particular purpose or reason, right?
	Yeah, of course.
	So, what would be the purpose for them to become philosophical?
	From a comfort standpoint, there would be no purpose at all, right?
	It would just be...
	Yeah. To cut the calories, they would have to have a reason, and there's no reason for that, yeah.
	I mean, it's like for you, to learn Spanish, right, especially if it's something that you didn't like, you'd have to have a reason for it, right?
	Absolutely. Right.
	So they don't have a reason.
	So the only reason that they would accept would be some kind of consequentialism which you are denying for them.
	You are denying the value of consequentialism by having no consequences, no negative consequences to them not being philosophical.
	And that kind of extends everywhere.
	Okay. I see that.
	And again, none of this is criticism or I'm just talking about the causality, right?
	No, that clocks 100%.
	There are no consequences.
	I can just complain, and they'll say, so what?
	Well, nothing changes.
	Yeah, so you don't take philosophy particularly seriously, so why would they?
	No reason.
	There's no reason to.
	No, I mean, it's like an affectation.
	It's like something that you talk about taking seriously, but you don't take very seriously.
	And again, I'm just talking about the causality.
	This is not any big sort of moral argument.
	It's just, you know, he likes to talk about philosophy, and you know, it's like some kid who's like, you know, I'm really into karate, right?
	Karate is just, you know, really into karate.
	And then you say to the kid, oh, you could take some karate lessons.
	No, I don't want to do that.
	No. Okay, well, that's fine.
	I mean, again, no particular condemnation, but, you know, clearly you're not that much into karate.
	Yeah, you're not a big karate guy.
	Yeah, you just like to talk about it, you like to play fight a little, but it's not serious.
	It's like an affectation.
	Yeah. And listen, I say this with ridiculous amounts of humility, because I was up until my late 20s, I was this way.
	So I say this with no, you know, I can't condemn you, because that would be totally hypocritical, right?
	You know, I read a lot of philosophy.
	I was really into philosophy.
	I talked a lot about philosophy, but it didn't guide any of my actual relationships.
	At all.
	Right. There were no consequences to people in my life for not being philosophical.
	Really? Oh, yeah.
	I mean, of course, yeah.
	I mean, my family, like, for origin, and friends and all of that, it was just something I was kind of into, right?
	Yeah. It was like being into a band, right?
	Yeah, just like a passing fling, kind of, yeah.
	So, why would I expect people to take something really difficult more seriously than I do?
	It wouldn't make much sense, right?
	That doesn't make a lot of sense.
	It's like, go to war, please, and I'll sleep.
	Yeah, like all of the people who were like, it's really, really essential that we go for this war.
	Are you signing up?
	Yeah. Are you insane?
	I could get hurt.
	Right? Yeah.
	But enough about the media.
	What? No?
	Me? No.
	Yeah, the Yudia.
	So, people are always trying to figure out if you're serious.
	Like, are you serious about this?
	Or is it just...
	Because the last thing you'd want to do, of course, is change your entire life for philosophy, and then the guy's like, oh, god, no, I was never really serious about that.
	It's just kind of like a hobby.
	I was kidding!
	I was kidding!
	Yeah, yeah.
	You took me seriously?
	I don't know.
	There's this old story.
	It's a Russian story called The Necklace, right?
	And it's about this woman who borrows a necklace.
	A hugely expensive necklace for a ball.
	She's poor, but she just wants to dress up.
	And she's got a friend with a really nice necklace that's worth a crazy amount of money, right?
	Right. And she goes to the ball.
	Everyone admires the necklace.
	But then, unfortunately, she gets home and she realizes she's lost the necklace.
	It got, you know, like how women sometimes lose earrings and stuff like that, right?
	So she lost the necklace.
	And so she's absolutely horrified.
	And so what she does is she goes and pays a jeweler to make a fake necklace that copies the original.
	And then she and her husband, they never have kids because all she does is work to pay off this insanely expensive necklace, right?
	Okay. And at the end of her early in her life, she's sick.
	She's had this terrible life.
	Her husband and her have just worked to pay off this necklace.
	And she goes to her friend and finally confesses what happened.
	And her friend says, oh my god.
	It was fake.
	Oh! No!
	Okay. Yikes.
	Fake. You just worked your whole life to repay something that didn't even exist.
	Okay. Right?
	So, she sacrificed everything for something that wasn't even real.
	Like, you don't want, people don't want to do that.
	So, when you're trying to talk about some radical new concept or some radical new idea of life, people want to know if you take it seriously.
	I mean, this is the diet book principle, right?
	Which is if someone's got a crazy diet, right?
	Like, stuff that makes no sense, right?
	I mean, like, there's a lot of diets out there that people talk about that go completely against the grain of what I was taught.
	Now, that's fine.
	You know, just because I was taught it doesn't mean that it was real, right?
	But I'm going to need to at least see someone slim and healthy on the cover, right?
	Right, right.
	Right? I mean, do you take your diet?
	So, you know, it's the old fat guy in the diet book, right?
	If there's a fat guy on the cover of the diet book, either his diet sucks, but he takes it seriously, in which case I don't want to have the diet, or his diet doesn't suck, but he doesn't even do follow the diet, right?
	He's not even doing it, right.
	Right. So that's why there are thin guys.
	You know, if I say, I've got a surefire way for you not to be bald, and I'm bald on the cover, that would be kind of odd, right?
	Yeah, it would be quite the interesting book to sell.
	Well, and that wouldn't be any particular kind of moral issue, but it would be.
	Abs are super important.
	You've got to have abs.
	And then, you know, I've got a potbelly on the cover of the abs book.
	No abs.
	So when you're saying to people you should radically change your life and you should change all of your relationships, you should change your entire relationship to your society, because this is not just about personal relationships,
	but you have a view of government and you have a view of taxation and you have a view...
	Everything changes, right?
	And so if people...
	If you're saying to people...
	This is going to be super difficult and super important.
	They want to know if you're serious.
	I mean, obviously, Socrates was pretty serious about what he was doing because he drank hemlock.
	Right? Obviously, Jesus was pretty serious about what he was doing because he allowed himself to be crucified, right?
	Or he at least accepted it to some degree, right?
	Yeah, he was...
	I'm good.
	Let's do it.
	He was on it.
	He did not, oh, please don't do it to me.
	He took it.
	Right. Yeah.
	Right. He knew the consequences.
	Right. So, that's what people need to see if you're going to ask them to change your life, right?
	I mean, if I was surrounded by a bunch of really corrupt people while saying to people it's important to have not corrupt people in your life, you know, people would have some reasonable questions about that, I think, right?
	If it's so important, why aren't you doing it?
	Good question.
	If it's so important to have abs, and you know how to have abs, why do you not have abs, right?
	Yeah. All very sensible questions, and questions which should be asked, right?
	For sure.
	I mean, if some guy says, you know, you've been around the pickup artist community, right?
	A little bit, yeah.
	Yeah, some guy's like, I've got a surefire way to pick up women, right?
	And he never has any women around him, or whatever it is, right?
	Well, that's, you know, you want to see that Rolo Tomasi thing where he's always got these women in Vegas or whatever, right?
	Yeah, the big round tables or whatever they've got going on.
	For sure.
	So, yeah.
	So, you can't convince people about things that you're not willing to sacrifice for.
	Gotcha. And why would they believe you?
	They shouldn't.
	Well, yeah, I mean, if they're empiricists, right?
	And then what they're going to want to see, of course, is they're going to want to see you doing what you claim is so important, right?
	So if you're saying to people you should change your whole life for philosophy, but you're not willing to change your life for philosophy or put anything on the line, well, they're not going to believe you.
	And I'm not even saying they should.
	I wouldn't believe a guy who said his ab program was the best if he had a pot belly.
	And you could say, well, you haven't disproven his ab program.
	It's like, yeah, but, you know, life is short, and you've got to make your decisions, right?
	And if somebody is In a sense, so weird that they don't even understand that they need to actually have abs if they're going to say that they know how to have abs, and it's super important to have abs.
	Well, then they've got to have abs.
	And if somebody doesn't even know that, why on earth would I listen to them about anything?
	I mean, you were a publisher and some guy said, listen, I'm a fat guy with a fantastic diet.
	I want you to put my fat ass on the diet book cover.
	What would you say?
	No, I don't think that's a good idea.
	And you'd say, what's the matter with you?
	Of course you know that you need to look fantastic on the cover of the book if you say you have a book about how to look fantastic.
	Yeah, of course.
	Why would I even need to say this?
	This is so obvious, right?
	Absolutely. So, if you want to have this kind of life, Where you change and everything is super important to change and virtue and all of that,
	which is great.
	If you want to have this kind of life, if you need to have this kind of life, I think that's great.
	But you're going to have to show people that you mean it.
	Because you can't ask people to take your beliefs more seriously than you take them yourselves.
	Than you take your own, right.
	And again, I say this with all due humility.
	That it took me an embarrassing amount of time to learn about this.
	And the funny thing is, I was a director of marketing when I figured this out.
	Oh, really?
	Okay. That was actually my job.
	That was actually literally my job, right?
	Okay. Right.
	So, that was the fact.
	So, but yeah, that is the deal.
	If you want people to change.
	And I don't think you want people to change that much, because otherwise, since you know this, having listened to me, right?
	Since you know this, and you haven't done it...
	It would have been done by now if I really wanted it, right?
	If you really cared about people, and so on, and you wanted them to change, then you would put it on the line.
	Have you ever seen or heard of the show called Intervention?
	Well, the show Intervention is people saying to someone, listen, you have to change.
	Like, I am no longer going to be part of your addiction.
	And it's really serious because people are saying, look, I am so serious about this that I'm not going to have anything to do with you.
	You are out of my life if you don't kick this addiction because, you know, you've been stealing, you know, all this terrible stuff is going on, I'm not going to watch you die, so I am absolutely going to put you, like, you're dead to me if you don't go and get help.
	If that makes sense.
	And that's the best chance they have of breaking their addictions.
	Right. Thank you.
	And this is, I mean, of course, you know, everybody's been annoyed with me for many years about this.
	And look, I don't even blame them.
	I completely understand.
	Because it's a lot more fun to talk about morality than to actually be moral, right?
	Absolutely. And so I get where people are coming from.
	I sympathize.
	I understand.
	I don't blame people hugely.
	But I'm also not going to pretend that it's not like a real thing, that it's not real.
	I don't want to give people a false sense of morality or the idea that they can be corrupt.
	And I'm just not going to give them the pretense of morality, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, you can't give them the morality of words.
	It's just, you know, anybody can talk.
	Yeah, if you don't want to be moral, or if you don't want to live with a big amount of integrity, that's fine.
	I'm, you know, I'm not going to necessarily complain about that forever and ever, amen.
	But I sure as heck, I'm not going to pretend that you are.
	When you're not.
	Exactly. When you're not.
	Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
	That's my major concern.
	Right. And so, a couple thoughts.
	So, the first is that When we were talking about whether I wanted to change them or not at the end, during the conclusion there, I just kind of realized that, yeah, I didn't really want to change them.
	I really don't have any kind of drive to change anybody now that I'm thinking about it.
	I just wanted stuff from them.
	I wanted...
	I don't know.
	Maybe I thought it would feel good to...
	No, you want them to listen to you and to change.
	And you also want them to be parents.
	I do, okay.
	And you want them to lead the way morally, which is kind of what parents are supposed to do.
	Right. But they won't.
	They've already made that clear, because they are not making decisions based upon moral principles.
	Let me ask you this.
	Of the people you know, let's say you know, I don't know, 30 or 40 people, right?
	Sure, yeah.
	Of the 30 or 40 people that you know, how many of them would quit their jobs if they won $20 million in the lottery?
	All of them.
	Right. Which means they're working for practical ends, not for moral ends.
	Oh, I can...
	No, there's a couple guys, especially...
	One of the reasons I'm at work.
	There's a couple guys who would continue working if they won the lottery.
	They would just buy a bigger house.
	But aside from that, like...
	Is that because they love their job?
	Yes, yes.
	And what is the job that they love?
	Bartending, cocktail making, and restaurant consulting.
	They've been doing it for like 15, 20 years a pop.
	And they have enough money to retire.
	I guarantee you they would not continue to be bartenders if they won the lottery.
	They're not bartending.
	They're doing the mixology stuff.
	They're not behind the bar anymore.
	They're building the restaurants and stuff.
	Okay, so they would continue building restaurants.
	They would just do it because they had the money, right?
	So they love building to the restaurants.
	They love building restaurants to the point where even if they never had to work another day in their life and they'd have enough wealth for five generations, they would still continue to build the restaurants, right?
	I'm not being skeptical.
	I just want to make sure I understand what you're saying.
	I know one of them.
	I know my main boss would.
	I know he's got a lot of money already, and he's doing it just for, he's here to teach.
	She wants to teach people about the art of making cocktails.
	He's huge on that.
	He's got a library.
	Okay, so out of the 40 people you know, let's say, enough.
	One guy.
	Yeah, so you've got one guy, right?
	Maybe, yeah.
	So that's 2.5% of people.
	Yeah. Right?
	So no, seriously, 2.5% of people are doing things.
	For the thing itself.
	I mean, if I won the lottery, I would keep doing what I'm doing.
	So, I think that's probably about accurate in that maybe one out of every 40 or 50 people are doing what they're doing in life for the thing itself rather than for a merely practical end.
	Yes. Right?
	There's this old country song, take this Job and shove it.
	I ain't working here no more.
	My woman left and took all the reasons I've been working for.
	Right? Which is that, you know, your girlfriend...
	This is the incel thing, right?
	The incel thing is why would I get a job and slog my way up the corporate ladder if I can't even get a girlfriend or won't get a girlfriend because men work in general for women and kids.
	That's why we have such a ridiculous amount of work ethic and the testosterone and the aggression.
	Like, we work We are given way too much productivity for one person because we're designed to be productive for like 10 people.
	Right. Exactly.
	Yeah. Okay.
	So your parents fall into the statistically significant category of 98% of the human race.
	98% of all people.
	Yeah, that clocks.
	I mean, Elon Musk doesn't have to work.
	He keeps doing it.
	He's a workaholic, right?
	Peter Thiel and all of these people, and some of them are working for good and some of them are working for ill.
	Bill Gates, right?
	But they don't have to work, but they keep doing something, right?
	Now, in general, and Elon Musk, what is he?
	He just got sued by the SEC because he paid too little for Twitter, even though Twitter was vastly undervalued from what he bought it at.
	Anyway, so...
	So, yeah, they face some significant negatives, and it's the Trump phenomenon, right?
	Trump is kind of incomprehensible to people who are rational calculators of benefits and costs.
	Because Trump could have spent, you know, the last 20 years or 15 years or whatever of his life, you know, being fated, traveling the world, enjoying his grandkids, enjoying his money, and so on, right?
	But instead, he chose to get impeached, sued, Charged, shot, convicted, you know, whatever it is, right?
	I don't know.
	Convictions will probably be overturned, and I think the last conviction had no punishment whatsoever.
	But, you know, he's chosen this path, which is clearly not a cost-benefit calculation.
	And so, for people, and this is the big divide in the world, and this is maybe you and your family, is the people who are doing things for the sake of ideals,...are incomprehensible to those who are rational calculators,
	who calculate cost benefits.
	Because what they always say, the people who are cost-benefit people looking at the idealists, they say, well, there's got to be some hidden motive.
	Yeah, right.
	Right? Like, Steph, why would you talk about IQ?
	There has to be some hidden motive.
	Why would Trump do this?
	There has to be some hidden motive of racism or xenophobia.
	It doesn't make any sense that he's doing it for the thing itself.
	And this is why the left is always throwing these hysterical imaginary motives at people, which is kind of what your parents...
	Why are you talking about this?
	What's your goal?
	It's frankly kind of incomprehensible.
	It's still kind of incomprehensible to me, too.
	What is?
	It's kind of I don't have anything.
	I would say I'm part of that 98% right now.
	We all blend.
	There's nobody 100% one way or the other.
	It's the predominant.
	It's like 60-40 or 70-30 or 80-20 or whatever.
	Your parents are like, probably they can't comprehend that you need to tell the truth.
	You need to ask them these basic questions.
	You need to follow.
	Follow this path to truth and connection, because that's what you want and you value the truth.
	They have to say, wait, wait, wait.
	What's your aim here?
	What's your goal here?
	What are you playing at?
	What are you trying to achieve?
	What's your strategy?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	What am I not aware of?
	And you hear this in call-in shows when there's these long pauses and people are trying to figure out where I'm trying to, quote, lead people when I'm just trying to get to the truth.
	It's sort of a mutual exploration.
	It's not me trying to lead.
	People live with some predetermination.
	I usually don't know what the heck I'm doing for the first half of the call.
	Just gathering info, right?
	So, when you sit down with your parents and say, I want to talk, and I did a call-in show this morning where we did a roleplay, which was kind of like, I can't change the past.
	Why would you even bring this up?
	Like, what's your goal?
	What's your plan?
	And so, if you're into the truth, and you just want to tell the truth to people, and so on, Well, that's a motive, right?
	But it's not a cost-benefit motive.
	I mean, obviously, the truths that I've spoken have been a little costly from time to time.
	Yeah, quite a little bit.
	Quite a little bit, right?
	A decent bit.
	And so the people who are upset or offended by the truths that I'm telling, they have to assume that I have a nefarious motive because they would not be motivated by the truth.
	So when people say, well, only a bad guy would pretend to be motivated by the truth, there's a hidden agenda.
	All they're saying is that, well, I'm not motivated by the truth, and I can't imagine anyone who is, so he just must have nefarious motives.
	Right. And I guess to some extent, too, if you were motivated by simply telling the truth, but you were trying to get an end out of it, you'd be manipulating the truth and thus just be manipulating, and that's not very truthful either, right?
	If I was telling partial truth, that's still lying and that's not the truth.
	That still costs benefit because it's just manipulative.
	I guess that's probably pretty nasty too.
	You could use philosophy to a pretty bad end if you did that.
	Well, philosophy was invented for bad ends.
	It's only recently that we're able to try and wrestle it for the cause of good, right?
	And people who have a profitable falsehood don't like it when, at least to them, a non-profitable truth comes along.
	Now, they'll pretend that it's all about the truth, but really it's just all about the profit, right?
	So there's a huge amount of money, literally trillions of dollars around the world, swashing back and forth because of the idea that everyone's the same, therefore all inequalities must be the result of prejudice.
	And if we start talking about, you know, the other factors and so on, then people get mad at that because it's threatening trillions of dollars.
	Now, they can't be honest about that, so then they have to just...
	They themselves have nefarious motives, right?
	That they want to profit from this social division and all the money that comes in as the result of this belief.
	But they can't say that, right?
	So then they say...
	They project their nefarious motives onto whoever's telling the truth about these things.
	And then they say, well, he must be a bigot or he must be a this or a misogynist or whatever, right?
	Right, so this rational calculator thing, if you're interested in philosophy, then you pursue the truth because the truth has value because it's true.
	Not the truth has value because it makes me money, or the truth has value because it makes me look good, or the truth has value because it gets me girls, or whatever, right?
	I mean, negging is in a sense lying, because hopefully you get into an insecure girl's pants, right?
	So if you're interested in philosophy, the truth has value because it's true.
	And good has value because it's good.
	But for people who are cost-benefit calculators, that's incomprehensible motive.
	It does not compute or process to them.
	Or, to put it another way, their avoidance of their own bad conscience prevents them from knowing that some people are motivated by the truth.
	One example, Mark Zuckerberg's re-emergence as a minor testosterone-laced lizard man is a little sketch.
	It's a little sus.
	A little sus.
	I'm a little suspect of it, yeah.
	But he said in the interview with Joe Rogan, he said, you know, that iconic image of Trump shouting fight after having just been shot in the ear.
	You know, the flag.
	Look, I mean, I don't care who you are.
	I don't care what you think of Trump.
	That's iconic and that's powerful, because what he's saying is, I have a motive beyond safety, beyond profit, and the more it costs Trump, and it has cost him enormously to run for office and to be in office, and it's cost him financially,
	reputationally, I'm sure it's been strained on his marriage, he's been shot at multiple times, and it's not like that's all over, right?
	So, when you see someone who's motivated, By no cost-benefit calculation that makes any kind of sense.
	He's in it for the good of America, and whatever, you know, you can be skeptical about that, but it becomes increasingly difficult to be skeptical about that.
	And you could also disagree that what he's doing is for the good of America, but that certainly is empirically his motive, because it's cost him so much.
	Regardless of the result, his motive is outside of some simple cost-benefit, right?
	Yeah, it's cost him that much, right.
	They have to ascribe all of these nefarious motives to Trump because it is an attack from their bad conscience to accept and recognize that some people do what they consider the good for the sake of the good.
	And whatever you can say about Trump, he's, you know, agree or disagree, but he certainly is doing what he's done because he believes it's the good and the right thing to do.
	It's the same thing with Elon Musk buying X in part because he values free speech.
	Right? And has it cost him?
	Yeah, and you could say, ah yes, but Trump got elected, he's made some money.
	I get all of that, but that sure as heck was not the plan back in the day, right?
	So he has bought X to try and further the cause of free speech.
	And so people can't comprehend That someone is going to try and pursue a moral goal for the sake of that moral goal, it's terrifying to people that the 2% exist.
	Yes. Because if the 2% can do good for the sake of doing good, why can't the 98%?
	Especially because that's what they claim to value and that's what they tell themselves they are doing.
	Right. But to actually then say to do it, to go from theory to practice in the cause of virtue is the most extreme sport there is.
	Because the stakes are so high.
	I wanted to add that it sounds, what I've gathered from my work is that being philosophy, the process, I guess, of becoming that 2% is effortful.
	You don't just have it.
	It takes effort.
	Yeah. Indiligence, which is, you know, it's blended, you know?
	There's cost-benefit there.
	And now I kind of see it that way.
	It doesn't just happen.
	It's not like you're just screwed or something if you're 98% of people versus the 2.5% or whatever.
	Well, the 98% is 98% because it works biologically.
	Yeah. You get to meet and date, get married, have kids, raise your kids in a fairly stable...
	Believe system environment, not rocking any boats, right?
	It's sort of like, and I don't even massively begrudge the 98%, except for the hypocrisy, because as I sort of said before, in order for evolution to work, you can't have everything mutate all at once.
	You've got to have a generally stable gene pool with a couple of tweaks here and there.
	So the fact that most people are just cost-benefit calculators, Who are pretending to be virtuous.
	It is what it is.
	I hope that will be different in the future with better parenting and better education and so on.
	But that is what it is.
	And then people come along and actually embody the virtues that everyone claims to value.
	Right? Everybody claims, this is a funny thing, it's a funny thing in life, that everyone claims to value the truth teller who takes arrows for the cause.
	Everyone. But then they don't take the arrows.
	No, they fire the arrows!
	Oh, they shoot them?
	Oh, shit, okay.
	They fire the arrows.
	They're like, damn, I love those, I mean, I love those guys who, you know, look at Superman or, you know, whatever heroes or Jesus or Socrates or Aristotle, like all the people who are like, ah, you know, the Galileo being tortured by the church for whatever,
	right? So, everybody admires those people as long as it's far enough away that it doesn't impact them personally.
	But then, when they have a truth-teller in their midst, they join the mob and attack the truth-teller, and thus betraying everything they claim to value.
	All hands on deck.
	All hands on deck.
	Go, get them, get them.
	Right. Right.
	I mean, Socrates founded the Socratic method on asking tough questions of those in Authority of those who claim to have knowledge of those who claim to teach.
	And so I, with happiness and positivity, went into my courses on philosophy and other things with very challenging questions for the professors who often got quite annoyed.
	And the students got quite annoyed.
	It's like, no, no, no, no.
	Stop asking difficult questions.
	That's annoying.
	Let's go back to studying the guy who asked difficult questions who's the greatest philosopher that ever lived.
	Of all time.
	We're not here to study the truth.
	We're here to...
	Is this going to be on the test?
	Is this going to be on the test?
	Right. Right.
	So the calculation thing is, is this going to be on the test?
	If you...
	Let's say that they were doing a video on photosynthesis, right?
	Okay. So if you're absolutely fascinated by photosynthesis, you're never going to ask, is this on the test?
	Because you're just going to be fascinated by it.
	You're going to...
	You're just going to be done.
	Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
	I remember when...
	I first saw an Atari 400 in my math class when I was, I don't know, maybe 12 years old.
	I was like, oh, this thing's incredible, right?
	And I went every Saturday to the computer lab to learn how to program.
	I rented, I borrowed the computers home for the weekend.
	I just did everything I could to learn about these amazing machines.
	So I pursued it for the thing itself, because it wasn't until many years later that I became a computer programmer for a living, right?
	Right. So pursuing it for the thing itself is very rare, and there is no test.
	It's not on the test.
	So on the test is if you don't care about photosynthesis, and the teacher is showing you the video because the teacher has a headache, or is hung over, which happens.
	So the teacher's kind of hung over, and he's like, oh man, just put this video on and keep the kids quiet.
	I'm too hung over to lecture or something.
	And it's not going to be on the test, right?
	And if you don't care about photosynthesis, you won't pay any attention.
	So, I mean, for me, it's the difference between learning to play piano and getting singing lessons, right?
	I like to sing.
	I don't like to play piano.
	So, I never really studied piano.
	I tried a couple of other instruments, even did violin for 10 years, but it just, it was never my particular thing.
	But I like to hum and sing from time to time.
	And I took singing lessons in theater school and all that kind of stuff.
	So if you love the thing for the thing itself, you make no sense to the cost-benefit calculators.
	And then they say, well, there must be some hidden thing.
	There must be some hidden thing that I'm not aware of, because the idea that somebody could do it for the thing itself is an affront to my vanity.
	Because I think I'm virtuous, but when I see somebody actually pursuing virtue, then I recognize that I'm only borrowing the cloak of virtue and putting on You know, like those t-shirts?
	Have you seen these, um, let's talk about the wraps, right?
	So there are these funny wraps that you can get for women for the beach, and the wraps show an incredibly curvaceous female figure, and even old gramps can wear it, right?
	Right, like on, right, okay, yeah.
	Right, so it's a whole lot easier to spend 30 bucks and buy that wrap than it is to get some fantastic figure.
	Which is like hundreds or thousands of hours of dieting and exercise, and even if you have the genetic capacity for it.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So just buy the wrap and put it on, right?
	That's what most people are wearing, the skin suit of morality.
	And then they come across someone who actually embodies morality and it reminds them that they're just wearing a skin suit.
	They're not actually moral.
	And that they're borrowing the cloak of virtue for their own vanity rather than inhabiting it as a real thing.
	Yes. So with regards to our relationship with the 98%, The 98% don't want us to embody virtue because that way they recognize that they're only wearing the trappings and skin suit of virtue.
	That they're exploiting virtue for the sake of their own vanity and pretending to be good and admiring good and cheering on the good, right?
	Rather than...
	Until it beats them.
	Until they see it.
	So when people are pretending...
	It's counterfeit currency, right?
	So bad money drives out good and good money drives out bad, right?
	So if you've got a whole bunch of counterfeit currency and then someone comes along with real currency and a counterfeit detection machine, you're going to hate that person.
	Because they're going to take away the value if you're pretend money, just as a truly virtuous person takes away the value of pretend virtue.
	Yeah. So, if you want to embody virtue, it has to Be the defining factor in every one of your relationships.
	Yes. And it's not.
	It's something you talk about and something you kind of grudgingly pursue and you feel frustrated and helpless but you're not.
	And I'm not telling you how much you should embody virtue in your relationships but I'm telling you that if you want to be virtuous virtue has to Inform every single one of your relationships.
	And if you are in pursuit of the truth, you cannot have a relationship with people who are opposed to the truth.
	You can be around them, you can break bread with them, you can laugh at the same comedian, you can sing the same songs, but you can't actually have a relationship.
	That's real.
	Right. And your parents are probing you to see are you actually motivated by virtue?
	And if you're not motivated by virtue, then what people do is they apply negative stimuli to you until you stop yapping about virtue.
	Ah, okay.
	See, that makes sense.
	Okay. Right?
	So I talk about things that are controversial, and then progressively more negative stimuli gets applied to me until I stop talking about the things that are controversial, or at least until there's no audience and I have no effect.
	I'm just sort of shouting in the wind, so to speak, right?
	Right, right.
	And that's the deal.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	And to try and transition people from the skin-suited virtue to actual virtue, well, the first thing they have to do is admit that they don't actually know what they claim to know.
	This is the Socratic thing.
	Oh, you know what justice is?
	Let me ask you some questions and see if you really do know what justice is.
	And lo and behold, he found that people don't really know what justice is, and then they killed him.
	Right? Yeah.
	So, can you...
	Can you get people to transition?
	I don't know.
	But you can't get people to transition if you yourself don't take virtue seriously.
	In other words, virtue has to be that which pursues the truth to some degree, not 100%, but that which pursues the truth regardless of the cost-benefit analysis.
	That's what virtue has to be.
	Because if virtue is subject to a cost-benefit analysis, then it's not for the thing itself.
	It's like saying, I love this thing, but I'm only going to do it if people pay me $1,000 an hour to do it.
	It's like, well, no, no, if you love the thing, then you do it for the thing itself, not for the $1,000, right?
	Exactly. So, again, there's some limitations, and I don't even know what it would mean to be 100% honest.
	That's sort of not a standard that would make much sense to me, but it is nonetheless where you have to come from as an idealist who pursues the truth for the sake of itself.
	People have every right to test your commitment to the truth.
	Because they don't want to blow up their whole relationships like the woman working for the necklace and find out it was fake to begin with.
	They don't want to destabilize their marriage, blow up their relationships, question their God, their clergy, their government, their self, their soul, their virtue, their life, their history, their future, question everything, and then you just kind of run along with the herd.
	What they'll do is they will apply negative stimuli to you for pursuing the truth.
	Until you break or break through.
	Right. In the same way that if you want to join a wrestling team and you say you're the best wrestler, the wrestling coach is going to get the best wrestler to wrestle you to see if you are any good.
	And then we'll see if you're the good wrestler.
	Yeah, if you're a decent wrestler.
	So, if you say, oh, I'm into the truth and I'm into philosophy, people will say, okay, well, the test for that is can you survive negative stimuli?
	In fact, you can flourish from it.
	And if you are willing to survive negative stimuli in pursuit of the truth, then you may, over time, sometimes in history, be grudgingly given the status of idealist or truth-teller or philosopher or a man or woman of virtue.
	Yes. And this is what the purpose of internet trolling is, is to apply negative stimuli to see if you are Still dedicated and in pursuit of the truth.
	Even when negative stimuli...
	Yeah, so your family is saying to you, again, unconsciously or whatever, but they're saying to you, hey man, if you continue with this truth thing, we're going to keep applying negative stimuli.
	They're trolling me.
	Well, yeah, and listen, if you were a coach and somebody had real talent, right, but was lazy, would you coach them?
	No. No, you wouldn't.
	If you said to somebody, hey man, I can get you the gold medal, but you're going to have to get up at five o'clock in the morning, follow a rigid diet and train three hours or four hours or five hours a day with one rest day, and somebody said, oh man,
	I'm not going to do that, then you'd find someone else to coach, right?
	Yes. So without discipline, there is no progress.
	And so the coach is saying, in order for you to be...
	My athlete, in order for me to coach you, you have to show me that you can survive and maybe even flourish under the negative stimuli of getting up crazy early, slonking eggs, and doing four billion sit-ups a week.
	Under the discipline of leaving your parents behind and enacting consequences to them.
	That's what that kind of relates to.
	I've always said, if you're going to take up philosophy as a journey, then expect that not a lot of people will come along.
	But those you meet on the way will be far greater treasure than anything you left behind.
	I mean, the people I have in my life now, their little finger is worth more than the entire crew I grew up with.
	Yes. And if you want to stay with rational calculators while pretending to be an idealist, it's going to tell you in two.
	It has.
	Frankly, very much so.
	Kind of has, by this point.
	Right. So, when you see couples and you perceive them to be in love, and it makes you angry, and in particular at your mother, you think that that's your mother who is keeping you from love.
	But it's not.
	Oh.
	Oh. That's why it's not resolved.
	Who is keeping you from love?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I know, I know, I know, I know, but I...
	Well, you.
	Well, you.
	You are keeping you from love because love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous.
	And you have been dragging every sunburned skank from the bowels of the bar and trying to make a quality relationship.
	So you're saying, man, I just want a fantastic basketball team.
	And then you choose some 80-year-old guy who's missing an arm.
	Go to the retirement home.
	Right, and then you say, man, my mother is keeping me from having a great basketball team.
	It's like, nope, it's your choice.
	Your choices.
	Your choices.
	No, it's me.
	Yeah, it's me.
	Imagine you're picking up some woman who's obvious trash, and I'm sorry to be so harsh, but I'm just going to be vivid, right?
	I mean, if she was calling in, I'd have sympathy for her too, but let's just be vivid, right?
	So if you're just picking up some obviously trashy woman at the bar, and let's say there's some virtuous quality woman in there, what does she think of you?
	What the fuck are you doing?
	This guy's got no standards.
	What is going on with this guy?
	He's got no standards, no filter.
	He'll bang anything with a pulse.
	He's R-selected.
	He's a rabbit, not a wolf.
	And I'm going to stay away from him before I get an STD because he touches my glass.
	Right? I'll say I haven't actually slept with anybody, by the way.
	It's been wholly unsuccessful.
	Did I say sleep with anyone?
	I said pick her up.
	Pick her up.
	Exactly. Who are you pursuing?
	Trash! Well, if there's some woman and you see her pursuing some trash guy, you know, tattoos and nose piercings and bizarre affect, but he's tall, right?
	Or whatever her particular fetish is.
	If you see a woman It's funny because I just made this example in the last call in this morning, which was there was this guy who put his picture online or a picture online of some super good looking guy who in his bio said that he had been convicted and served time for domestic assault on a woman.
	Domestic assault.
	Yep. The dating app guy.
	He was like a handsome guy.
	Yeah, and he gets like 800 messages.
	He gets like 800 women.
	Well, it's good that you're honest.
	I can fix you, you know, but you are handsome.
	And then, you know, because what someone did was they took a list of all the reasons why.
	People say, oh, well, incels can't get date.
	Maybe they smell bad.
	And then they put a chat guy up who said, I don't bathe.
	I don't shower.
	I don't shower.
	I don't bathe, right?
	Get used to my natural stench because there'll be a whole lot of it.
	And the women are like, oh, that's intriguing.
	Right? So it's not real, right?
	And there's also a rather sad picture of a guy who's just not handsome.
	He's got a funny-looking face.
	He's got a funny-looking head.
	Not quite Marc Andreessen Conehead, but he's got a funny head.
	And he said, oh, shave your head if you're balding.
	You'll look cooler.
	And he did shave his head.
	Oh, get a tan.
	And he got a tan.
	Oh, work out.
	And he got muscular.
	But he still looks like a funny-looking guy.
	Right? I mean, your face is your face.
	Your bones are your bones, right?
	So, when you see women chasing after a guy who beats up women and doesn't bathe, what do you think of them?
	Well, part of me is like, dang, I wish I, I guess I should have looked like that.
	But there's also the part of me that's like, well, I don't want anything to do with that kind of woman in the first place.
	That's not very...
	Well, and that's your R selected, which I understand.
	That's your R selected versus your K selected.
	That's your quantity versus quality.
	Yeah, the K selected part of me is like, okay, so of all the women I've seen in my life and relationships, all of them are probably acting and doing things like this.
	I don't want any part of that, frankly.
	Because, yeah, it's like, why would I want anything to do with a woman who's going to choose that?
	Right. No sense of self-protection, vainglorious, interstatus, not virtue, and And then, who will doubtless later complain that the guy is mean?
	After he literally put on his bio that he's a wife-beater or a girlfriend-beater.
	He's going to beat her up, yeah.
	Okay, so let's ask the final question.
	This is the final boss question.
	And the final boss question is, what's your favorite female name?
	Cecilia. Cecilia!
	Oh no, now that song is stuck in my head.
	You can't ever name anyone Cecilia, because now that song is stuck in my head.
	Alright. Okay.
	I'll take that.
	No, no, that's fine.
	Cecilia, you meet her and you say, yeah, like I'm a virtuous guy, I'm really into philosophy and so on, right?
	And then she comes over for a full day, a full day, you know, brunch, lunch, barbecue at night, a full day with your family of origin.
	Right? Mother, father, siblings, you name it, right?
	Extended family.
	How does she experience?
	That day.
	Well, if she's probably just going to see...
	It's probably going to be pretty distant.
	They're probably not going to...
	They're going to kind of be cautious, kind of not really interested.
	They'll talk about me a lot.
	They'll say, oh...
	I did it again.
	Pardon me.
	Sorry. They'll say, oh, he's got a...
	You know, he's got a history, he's kind of funny, we love him, but there won't be any yelling, there won't be any nonsense.
	Okay, so does she know that you felt mistreated by your family as a child?
	Oh, yes.
	Okay, so let's say she knows that you felt significantly mistreated by your family as a child, that you have a lot of anger at your mom, and then she sees you around your mom.
	What does she see?
	Oh, what she would see is very likely passivity.
	Cordiality. She'd see me like...
	She'd see hypocrisy.
	Yeah, she would.
	Oh, I really hate this woman.
	Oh, thank you, Mama, for that lovely little tea and crumpets.
	Thank you for the dinner.
	Thank you for the dinner.
	Oh, so nice to see you.
	Oh, here's my girlfriend.
	She would see this, you know, kind of repulsive, right?
	Yeah, it would be like, what the heck?
	What the heck is going on here?
	This guy can put on quite a contemptibly hypocritical social face.
	And again, I say this, I was more guilty, and it's not a contest, I was more guilty of this than you, because I did all of this for a lot longer than you've been alive, so I say this with all humility, but it's gross.
	Right? And it shows that you're subjugated, that you're conquered territory, that you're owned.
	And that you talk tough except to people.
	100%. It'd be like if you saw, if you're a woman and you saw your boyfriend texting savagely with some guy who turned out to be in the same restaurant and then immediately cringed and apologized and cowered.
	That would be gross, right?
	If the keyboard warrior suddenly had the six foot four wrestler looming over him and he's like, oh, so sorry.
	Oh, I didn't mean to.
	Right. So.
	Thank you.
	So... Cecilia would see something...
	Now, she would have sympathy for it, of course, right?
	She would understand, but she wouldn't respect, right?
	No, not at all.
	So you can't have Cecilia in your life if you're still cowering around your family.
	Like, I'm sorry, I don't make the rules.
	I certainly don't make the rules of female desire.
	But... Your woman wants a man to be a provider and a protector.
	And if you're scared of mom, she's not going to feel safe with you.
	Because then she's going to know, oh, man, if I get married to you, I'm going to have to fight your mother-in-law's power over you, which appears to be infinite.
	Your corrupt mother's power over you appears to be almost infinite, and I'm going to spend the next 50 years trying to battle that crap.
	And you're in conflicts between me and your mother, Who are you going to side with?
	I'd like to say you, but in that case, it'd probably be mom, right?
	No, if mom applies pressure, then you'll side with mom, or you'll try to appease.
	I'm on mom's side.
	Right, so the least reasonable and most aggressive and cruel person will own my husband, and I'll be running along like a lost little lamb, bleeding for him to have some integrity, and he'll betray me at just about every turn.
	Right, and we don't want that.
	Is she going to want that?
	Is she going to want her kids?
	To see that?
	Is she going to want her son to have that model for him?
	No. And again, there's no point trying to rewrite the rules of male or female desire.
	Men are visual creatures.
	Well, that's unfair.
	Doesn't matter.
	Not going to change.
	You can't breed it out in real time.
	And women need to see a strong man who doesn't get pushed around.
	you.
	So, you're not angry at your mom.
	Your mom is who she is.
	You're angry at yourself for being pushed around by your mom.
	Or your dad or both or whoever, right?
	dad or both or whoever, right?
	And the reason that you're angry at these couples is Oh,
	yeah. So it's a paradox.
	The only people who'll stick around are people like Mom.
	And then you blame your mother for that.
	And look, I'm not saying that your mother treated you well, and I'm not saying your mother's not responsible for this dysfunction.
	She absolutely is.
	But you can't change her.
	You can only change yourself.
	I couldn't change my mother.
	I could only change my relationship with my mother.
	I could only change my decisions with regards to this stuff.
	If that makes sense.
	I am.
	Yeah. you
	That clock.
	That clock.
	Thank you.
	Can't change others, man.
	Can't change other people.
	All you can do is change yourself and see if they're inspired.
	I mean, my friends, and of course a lot of the slander that's out there about me,...is to try and prevent people from being inspired by what I do and thus pursue philosophy and the truth.
	Yeah, it's like defamatory and just kind of rude.
	It's like, ah, dismissive.
	Ah, yeah, that guy, ah, whatever.
	Oh, yeah, yeah, that terrible guy, so we don't...
	But, you know, I've been curious, although it's getting kind of late in the game now, right?
	But I was curious for many years, like, if any of the people that I knew when I was growing up and even were friends with throughout my sort of early to mid-twenties...
	Whether they'd ever send me a message and say, wow, you know, you really did kind of make something of yourself.
	Wow, you really seem to be happily married.
	You know, I listened in to a show with your daughter, and obviously you guys have a great relationship.
	Like, you did something right, man, and, you know.
	Yeah. Maybe you could, now, of course, you know, we're all in our mid to late 50s, actually late 50s now, so it's kind of late in the game.
	You know, it's like trying to become a ballet dancer in your 40s, like it's too late in the game.
	So, I don't expect, but you know, I've been doing this for 20 years and I suppose when I met my wonderful wife and we just celebrated our 22nd wedding anniversary and, you know,
	I guess I would have been kind of curious if people who had bad relationships or bad marriages or whatever had contacted me at some point saying, oh, you've kind of put it all out there and Do you have any tips?
	Anything like that, right?
	Yeah. I'm in the...
	I was in the boat of that's all not just revelatory, it's also pretty actionable too, but the one thing there's...
	Emotionally, I was...
	The one thing that stops me from just saying tonight, just going in and saying, it's over, I'm done, I'm not talking to you anymore.
	Or just having that direct conversation.
	Like, real direct.
	Yeah, even that much.
	It's just like, I don't...
	I've never met that quality person.
	I'm just afraid...
	Well, no.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	You might have met that quality person, but they judged you first.
	Poorly. They judged me, yes.
	And then they didn't...
	Yeah, I did not know them.
	And let me tell you one other thing.
	I'll keep this brief, but it's an important thing.
	Sometimes people get into philosophy in order to continue their parents' dominance over them.
	Okay. Right?
	So if you...
	Sounds strange.
	As a kid, you desperately need things from your parents, right?
	You need their approval, you need their protection, you need their resources, their food, their shelter, like you desperately need things from your parents.
	And when you become an adult, you know, technically and economically and physically, you don't need these things from your parents anymore, right?
	You can provide them yourself.
	Now, if you're so used to your parents having so much power over you, it could be tempting to pursue philosophy and be desperate for your parents to change.
	parents then have power over you again, because they can reject your desperate requests for change.
	So you can pursue philosophy sometimes, in part, not entirely, but it's certainly possible to pursue philosophy in order to retain
	I mean, listen, I've thought about this myself quite a bit over the years.
	Like, did I pursue philosophy in part to continue the world's attack and rejection of me that I experienced as a child?
	Is this a repetition compulsion about all of this?
	And of course, it'd be pretty...
	Rigorous in examining that within myself.
	And I think the conclusion I've come to, which is just touch on in passing, is not that I did it to continue the attacks and rejections that I experienced as a child, but that I utilized my capacity to survive and flourish under attack and rejection to continue promoting the truth.
	In other words, I used the strengths in my childhood to survive attacks rather than saying what I'm saying in order to provoke attacks, if that makes sense.
	Can you repeat that in a different way?
	I think I get it, but I want to make sure I got it.
	Sure. So, I did not provoke the world into attacking and rejecting me in the same way that I was attacked and rejected as a child because of any kind of repetition compulsion.
	Well, I'm just somebody who gets attacked and rejected, so I'm just going to keep prodding the world until it attacks and rejects me, and then I'm just in this horribly familiar place or whatever, right?
	But I think what did happen is that I developed a lot of resilience to being attacked and rejected because I had to, to survive as a child.
	And I used those strengths to survive the attacks and the rejection in the pursuit of truth, rather than mindlessly provoking with the end goal of being attacked and rejected, because that's my familiar space.
	So in essence, the refining of that resilience from your childhood was not designed to go back and fight or defend or stop the abuse that you received.
	It augments you.
	It's not like you're doing all this work for the purpose of changing.
	Injecting revenge on the past or something?
	I'm not sure how I would describe it, right?
	But it's augmenting your ability to function now.
	And part of, you know, I have my good moral reasons for not going back on Twitter or other places or, you know, in this sort of new era of maybe minimized censorship of trying to rebuild my platform, because if I was goading the world into becoming my mother,
	because that's all I'm familiar with,...is being attacked and rejected.
	If I'm just like, well, all I am is attacked is a fixed belief.
	I'm attacked and rejected, so I'm just going to keep poking the world until it attacks and rejects me and that I'm in that familiar place, right?
	So I said, okay, well, what happens if I'm not poking the world?
	If I'm not poking the world, then if it was a repetition compulsion, if I'm not poking the world, then I should feel increased anxiety and a massive desire to poke the world and provoke it into attacking me because that's what I need in a...
	Simon the Boxer repetition compulsion kind of way.
	Does that sort of make sense?
	Yes. Yeah, exactly.
	So instead of...
	It makes sense.
	I'm trying to visualize it.
	Right. So if I'm addicted to being attacked and rejected, then when I stop provoking the world in the same kind of way, then I should experience significantly negative psychological states as a result of withdrawal from my addiction.
	But I didn't.
	I didn't.
	But you didn't.
	Exactly. It was more like...
	That's pretty sweet, man.
	This is pretty great.
	So that's how I know it was not repetition compulsion.
	Yeah, so it would be like, you know, imagine you're just standing in the middle of an empty room and you're scrubbing your head.
	You're like, oh, I'm in so much pain!
	And then you just open your eyes and you're like, oh, wait.
	Well, you know, as you know, I have 1% of the streaming audience that I used to have, and I know exactly how I could get streaming audiences back.
	I know, right?
	And I'm fine not doing that, which means it's not an addiction.
	In fact, I prefer what I'm doing now than what I was doing before.
	I think it's more meaningful and more long-lasting and so on, right?
	So anyway, I don't want to make it too much about me, but the reality is that sometimes people come up with something that they desperately need their parents to change in order for their parents to continue to have power over them by not changing.
	And sometimes that can be philosophy or idealism or self-knowledge or something like that, maturity.
	I understand.
	But you should not have an endless experiment with people.
	Which means, for me, however, I think I had three major confrontations with my mother and maybe one or two with my dad.
	But you don't have endless experiments, right?
	You keep telling the truth, and if you keep getting rejected and attacked for telling the truth, at some point you just have to accept that.
	Also knowing that if somebody rejects and attacks you unjustly, like you tell the truth about your experiences, they reject and attack you, they have a very short window of apologizing before self-justification kicks in.
	And once self-justification kicks in, they won't change.
	Once somebody has justified their own actions, they will not change.
	Because then they have to admit not only did they do wrong, but they also lied to themselves about it at your expense, calling themselves the good guys and you the bad guys.
	I'm sorry, go ahead.
	Right, so you mean like there's a window of time before after the act and before the apology would come out where that justification happens.
	It gets hardened.
	Usually not more than 24 hours, max.
	I mean, I've never had somebody do me wrong.
	And apologize more than 24 hours after the act.
	Well, you know, I shouldn't say that.
	I shouldn't say that.
	But certainly not because of anything I did.
	Like I've had, I can think of a couple of trolls over the years who later called up to apologize.
	But it wasn't because of anything I did.
	But in general, in general, and also they've never offered to make massive restitution.
	They've never said, hey man, I trashed your reputation all over the place.
	You know, here's a huge donation to cover up for it.
	It's always like, I feel bad, and I'm like, I'm really bad at holding grudges for the most part.
	So I'm like, yeah, fine, whatever.
	I'm going to move on.
	When you have a life that's really good, it's tough to hold grudges.
	I still remember things, and, you know, normally I won't intervene if somebody who's caused me to suffer ends up suffering themselves.
	I certainly won't intervene on their behalf.
	But certainly in my personal life, I've never had someone do me wrong.
	I mean, people do me wrong, and you apologize, you know, Usually pretty quickly, just as I do when I do someone wrong.
	But I've never had it in my personal life where someone who's done me wrong has called me up more than 24 hours later and apologized, and that's because in that time frame they feel some tension.
	Oh, I did something wrong.
	Right? And they either apologize or they resolve that tension by justifying themselves and making me the wrong party.
	Yeah, so the problem is with your parents, you have a couple of conversations that they feel discomfort of what you're saying.
	And the problem then becomes if they can apologize relatively quickly, that's great, but this is why you can't have endless...
	I'm guilty of that.
	You can't have endless interventions because it's not recognizing the fact that the brain will automatically come up with self-justifications.
	In situations of conflict, either you apologize or you self-justify.
	There's no other possibility.
	And if people repeatedly self-justify, it becomes practically impossible for them to change.
	Because then they have to admit that they did you further wrong by attacking you, like you did something wrong.
	So they did something wrong to you, and then you bring it up at them, and then they attack you, and maybe especially if they've also spread lies about you.
	Oh, so-and-so just went crazy.
	He just got involved in this cult.
	Like, if they've really slandered you, and it's really, really hard to repair, oh, man, that's...
	That's really rough.
	Yeah, that's really rough.
	All right.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	How are we doing as far as value of the call goes?
	Hi. It's just that I had one more...
	It's just the...
	You mentioned it.
	I think you actually addressed the question with, did I meet a virtuous person before and they judged me to be, you know...
	Yeah, that's the urgency.
	They judge you negatively.
	That's the urgency because you never know when the great woman is coming along.
	And you might only meet one or two over the course of your entire life because of that whole 98% thing.
	No, seriously.
	This is urgency.
	This is why it's important not to wait.
	If I'd waited to do therapy and then met my wife, you know, we probably wouldn't be together.
	Right? So, you never know when that amazing woman is going to cross your path, and you better be fucking ready.
	And you better have all your ducks in a row, and you better be prepared.
	Because that chance, this is just Kevin Samuel things, like he'd always say, like, what makes you ladies think that you're just going to get endless chances at love?
	Right? Especially if you're looking for someone really rare.
	That's insane!
	Yeah, go ahead.
	I was going to say, that's insane.
	There's no way that makes sense.
	Especially knowing what I know about the majority of the people I talk to.
	If I met them, they probably already are long gone.
	Or maybe it's like...
	Maybe the low-quality women you're trying to get with are rejecting you because you're high-quality and they sense it.
	And maybe they're throwing you back so that you can meet a quality woman in a strange way that even corrupt people can aid virtuous people.
	So maybe they're doing you a favor because if you got involved with one of these low-quality women, Right?
	And then you ended up with a high-quality woman crossing your path.
	She would ignore you completely and keep looking.
	So, yeah, you've got to...
	You do not know.
	You do not know when the universe is going to spit up a high-quality woman to cross your path.
	You don't know.
	You better be ready.
	Better be ready for it.
	And then one final just kind of maybe silly question.
	But practically, how do I handle that when it...
	That's a silly question, but I don't know.
	I don't know if I'll be able to handle that when it happens.
	Well, no, no.
	You've got to be ready for it.
	There's a story about the old band, The Police, that they were playing some podunk town in the middle of a snowstorm, and there were only three people in the audience.
	They could have quit the show.
	They could have done a lackluster performance.
	They could have just gone through the motions, but Sting was like, no, we give absolutely everything.
	To our performances, even though there were only three people in the audience, they gave it their all.
	Turns out, one of them was a giant-ass record producer who gave them a huge contract.
	The readiness is everything, man.
	And so, when it comes to your life, you're like, oh, I can, you know, maybe I'll be honest with my family later, maybe I'll clean up my relationships later.
	It's like, you don't know.
	I might have met, and I can even think of a couple of women I met in my 20s who were high quality.
	And they didn't want to have much to do with me.
	And I'm not blaming them for that at all.
	I mean, I think that was actually quite wise.
	And since I'm rapidly happy with the woman I ended up with, I'm not going to complain about any path that led me here.
	But you don't have forever.
	No. You don't have forever.
	It's kind of like if you want to be a ballet dancer, you don't have forever.
	Right. Right?
	You've got to do it now.
	Be ready now.
	I guess I'll just get ready to go.
	She could be tomorrow, man.
	And if you ain't ready tomorrow, she's going to come and buy.
	She's going to come and go, and you won't even know she was there.
	What? Just one more thing before I go.
	When you think of quality, what's the first thing that comes to your mind?
	I'm trying to refine my definition, too.
	Well, curiosity and integrity, really.
	Curiosity and integrity, not like towards me specifically, but just towards the world, right?
	Not like...
	What do you mean towards the world?
	I don't know.
	I mean, you only know that somebody's meeting you when they're talking to you, so let's just make it about you.
	Sure. Okay, then that kind of answers the question then.
	I was, I guess, not used to somebody having curiosity towards me, so I guess when that happens, I'll be on the lookout for it.
	But also, they won't be doing that if they're high quality.
	And they're showing curiosity, and I'm low quality at that time when they introduce themselves into my life, then it makes sense for them not to.
	Okay, let me play a high quality woman talking to you after a day with your family.
	Sure thing.
	Alright, she would say, hey, man, you don't seem very connected when you're with your family.
	You don't seem very happy when you're with your family.
	What's going on?
	No, it's like I told you, they're unchanging.
	Rocks. Like I told you, it's an annoying thing to hear.
	Shit. Right?
	Because you're saying, hey, if you'd listened to me, you wouldn't have this criticism.
	Let's try that again.
	You don't seem very connected with your family.
	You don't seem very happy.
	What's going on?
	I just, you know, I sit next to them and I'm talking to them and it's just, it feels like I'm...
	Back when I was 13 or 14 and it's the same exact people.
	There's been no change.
	I've tried to get them to change and show curiosity and you saw the conversations.
	It's just the same slop.
	There's no engagement.
	There's no intrigue or interest.
	She's gone.
	She's already left.
	Sorry. Do you know why?
	Why? Because this is all false.
	You're just simply describing a negative experience.
	Which she already knows you're having.
	So you're telling her something she already knows.
	Let me try again then.
	I have no idea.
	I just can't think of a situation where I'd want to be around them right now either.
	It's hard for me to imagine.
	My imagination's failing me.
	I'm sorry.
	Well, I mean, you are around them from time to time, right?
	Yeah. So if you say to a woman who just saw you around your family, I can't think of a situation where I'd want to be around with them, she'd say, well, I can think of one, the one I just saw!
	Right. Outside of the experience stuff, I can't, I'm not, I don't know what to say.
	I don't know.
	Everything I say would just be, I mean, of course I do.
	What you're trying to do is you're trying to minimize and justify.
	That's low quality.
	I'm not saying you're low quality.
	I'm just saying that particular response.
	It's a low quality action.
	It's a low quality response, right?
	It's a low quality response.
	You're trying to minimize and justify or
	But a high quality person, when you complain about something you can change, puts you in the low quality category.
	Um...
	What's the most honest thing?
	You could say to somebody who says you don't seem to be happy when you're spending time with your family, what's the most honest thing you can say?
	First thing that comes to mind is it's all I know.
	Well, okay, but then that's a promise that nothing's going to change, right?
	Right. It's not very, that's like, you know, I do it out of habit.
	It's habitual.
	It's like I can change it, but I don't, which means that I guess I want to be there, right?
	Yep. You prefer that to something else, which means that you will let other people make you unhappy for the sake of conformity.
	What's the most honest thing you can say about being unhappy around your family?
	That I prefer the discomfort?
	No, that's an analysis.
	And also, that is low quality because that's not going to change, right?
	I prefer discomfort.
	And pleasing corrupt people.
	Okay, does she want to marry into that?
	No, of course not.
	Right. What's the most honest thing you can say?
	Right. Right.
	What's the most honest thing you can say?
	I'm miserable.
	I want to change things.
	I'm terrified.
	Yeah. Isn't that the most honest thing you can say?
	Yeah. I...
	I... Yeah.
	I can't think of anything that...
	I know it needs to change.
	I'm not happy there.
	I'm terrified.
	Of change, yeah.
	I'm terrified.
	I don't know of what, but I'm terrified.
	So do you see what I mean by the most honest response?
	That's not a justification.
	That is also saying that you desperately want to change it, but if you say you want to change it and you don't change it, then...
	Your actions are incomprehensible.
	But if you say, I want to change it, but I'm terrified, then your actions are comprehensible.
	And change is on the table.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, I was going to...
	It's funny, I was going to say that 20 minutes ago when I was asking my question about the...
	It was a two-part question.
	It was, I'm horrified of what's going to happen if I...
	Right, you already told me.
	This is why I repeated it back to you.
	You already told me.
	I'm terrified of being alone if I confront my family.
	Yeah. And so then I'm asking, what's the most honest response?
	You're like, not that.
	I'm like, I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Yeah. I do know.
	That's why I know.
	Yeah. I want to be honest.
	I'm terrified of being honest.
	I mean, that's the foundational human experience.
	I want to be honest.
	Yeah. I'm terrified of being honest.
	Now, she's a quality woman.
	Do you not think that she will have struggled with that too?
	I would imagine that she had.
	She absolutely will have, and she will sympathize with you for that.
	But she won't sympathize with any of that other nonsense you were talking about.
	Because it's not direct, honest, and open.
	Thank you.
	It's not.
	Now, what's even better than a quality woman not watching you be miserable around your family of origin for a day is your quality woman not seeing you be miserable around any corrupt people.
	Right. Which means either you're honest with your family and eventually they welcome your honesty and you can be direct with them or they're not in your life.
	But you won't want to sign up for this helpless dissociation.
	And conformity to corruption.
	She's not going to want to do it because she will have already had her own struggles with that stuff and she will not want to go back.
	Of course not.
	Right? Right.
	Some woman who's just spent five years bringing her weight down to a sane level is not going to want to date a fat guy who's barely even aware of the struggle.
	She's just not going to go back there.
	She's going to want to move forward in her life, not circle back.
	You would be amazed at how...
	I mean, when I talked about my questions about my own capacity for repetition compulsion and my own criticisms of my own motives and so on, I don't think that you thought less of me.
	I think you thought probably something like, well, it's good that it crossed his mind.
	It'd be kind of crazy if it didn't, right?
	Absolutely. That's 100% what I was thinking.
	I've spent my whole life being attacked and rejected by the world.
	I wonder if I might have something to do...
	What to do with that?
	I wonder if that might be a hidden motive for me, right?
	That'd be crazy.
	No! It's the world's fault, completely.
	I'm an innocent little lamb.
	You know what I mean?
	That would not be honest, right?
	Or with self-knowledge.
	Alright. So, yeah, that would be my, you know, you just gotta be as honest.
	As you can be.
	And if it takes you a moment, you don't have to answer right away.
	Consider your answer.
	Filter through.
	Is this honest?
	Is this direct?
	Is this a justification?
	Is this a minimization?
	Is this gaslighting?
	Is this self-pity?
	Or is this just, no, I want to be honest, I'm terrified of telling the truth.
	Which is a universal experience that everyone who's honest has gone through, and she will absolutely respect you for being direct about that, and she will sympathize with the journey that she's...
	Still going through.
	That never ends, by the way.
	That journey never ends.
	Right. It continues on.
	I'll just say that it is terror on all fronts.
	If I'm honest with even the guys at work where I feel pretty comfortable, if I was genuinely honest, I would probably lose my job.
	I would probably lose...
	I don't have...
	Obviously, there's a cost-benefit analysis there with how much truth do I tell at work, because if I tell...
	Well, no, but work is not a venue of personal honesty.
	Work is a venue of economic productivity.
	In the same way that you wouldn't pay your girlfriend for a date, you don't owe kisses to your co-workers, right?
	So you don't owe that direct kind of personal honesty to your co-workers because that is not an economic consideration.
	Exactly. Okay.
	All right.
	Okay, I'm going to stop here, because this is my second three-hour call-in show, or something like that.
	No, no, no problem.
	I appreciate that, and I hope I've managed to keep my energy up.
	And I appreciate the call, and I genuinely hope you'll stay in touch and let me know how things are going.
	Of course.
	Maybe I'll do another call in another six months when things have improved and there's more issues to overcome.
	But you've given me a lot to, basically, two very sexual things.
	Yeah, ready your nest with a quality bird, and you really can't go wrong.
	All right, keep me posted, brother.
	Thanks for the call today.
	Absolutely, Steph.
	Take care.
	Have a lovely anniversary time.

▲