Knowledge Fight Interactive Search Tool

All Episodes

Previous Next

April 9, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:40:04

MY BROTHER ALMOST KILLED ME! Freedomain Call In

Large

Audio Only |

Scroll

Time	Text
	Dear Steph, I need your help.
	I've been a long-time listener and sought out therapy as soon as I turned 18. Between then and now, I've made very limited progress chipping away at my armor and processing my childhood.
	I'm panicking at how long it's taking me when I want to cross the desert, meet a virtuous woman, and make of the babies.
	I think my biggest hurdle is that I'm quite split between my emotional and intellectual.
	I'm really strong on the intellectual side, identifying patterns, reasoning through healthy behavior, and making theoretical connections with my past.
	I've learned this alone doesn't work.
	With me, it doesn't touch my beliefs or really change how I feel, or even open the door for me to explore and interact with that realm.
	I feel hopelessly broken.
	To be more fair, I have occasionally made connections between those two worlds and have...
	Sorry. But only briefly a handful of times in therapy.
	That's not enough.
	I still have many dysfunctional behaviors from my near-death experience called childhood.
	I had no bond, was not parented, and was constantly in danger of violence from my metal brother and abandonment from my sadistic mother.
	Baffled that I logically understand how bad I had it, but still lagging behind with my emotions and lack of empathy for myself.
	Typically in your call-ins, once people understand, they connect.
	I'm so fucking frustrated.
	No matter how...
	Sorry if I swear.
	Oh no, that's fine.
	No matter what I've tried...
	With two therapists and journaling, I'm not touching it.
	I'm not without emotions.
	I can feel them strongly.
	I do try to suppress them until their intensity overpowers the suppression.
	Talking about suppressing, I've been experiencing chronic fatigue syndrome, self-diagnosed, for the past 10 years.
	I've been to alternate, normal, and specialist doctors.
	And ruled out all kinds of illnesses, infections, and deficiencies.
	And I'm left with a shrug, we don't know what's wrong with you.
	I have a working hypothesis that it's mental with physiological effects.
	I both overuse my fight or flight and ignore slash suppress the feedback of my body.
	I can just keep pushing through and at some point my body has burnt out and has trouble repairing muscle damage.
	You're supposed to be able to repair when you're safe.
	you Thank you.
	On another note, fair warning, my mom fights with fog.
	My inner mom.
	Prior to writing this, I tried to overthink this conversation you and I will have.
	I kept looping in the conversation because my inner mom would lose to inner Steph.
	She kept trying to nail...
	I don't know, and I don't remember.
	When she couldn't outwit or outplay or play passive or dumb or manipulate, I felt unspeakable danger would occur, like I would die.
	Contrary, I think this is when she dies, and I can be free to be vulnerable.
	In my experience, most of my past is a grand chasm of fog, so thick you can slice.
	You can cut a slice of it and serve it as meringue.
	Only a few plateaus memories peek out with little sense of depth.
	On that note, in a therapy setting, when I try to bring awareness to what I'm feeling, I get nothing.
	Like going to a play with a white curtain in front of a performance the whole time.
	The cast is doing something back there but no matter what, the curtains never part.
	There's quite a trail of blood leading to my mom in my present day dysfunctions, whipping myself verbally, rounding down my accomplishments, believing I'm worthless, and feeling unsafe in social situations to the point where it's easier to avoid most interactions and fear of dating due to the risk of abandonment.
	My ACE score is 6 or 7 out of 10. Not sure about the one about parents being assaulted counts.
	There's no drug use, prison, or sexual abuse.
	Not counting early exposure to pornography through unfettered internet access.
	My mother is a, quote, malignant narcissist.
	My father is a workaholic.
	Middle brother is really fucked up.
	And my oldest brother seems kind of okay, but he sides with my mother.
	I've been torturing myself for the past three weeks straight trying to ask for your help.
	I've been strongly avoiding and fearing it yet strongly intent to make it happen.
	Something tells me I did a good job providing enough info in this email alone for you to help me get unstuck.
	That's the end.
	Alright, and how are you feeling reading this to me?
	Oof. It's hitting me.
	In the feels, I feel I'm tearing up.
	And how old are you now?
	27. All right.
	And how's your life as a whole?
	It's mixed.
	From my career side, it's pretty good.
	I own a house.
	That's also pretty good.
	I'm pretty isolated, which is not good.
	And I don't have any virtuous people in my life.
	How did you end up owning a house at your age?
	That's very impressive.
	Yeah. I mean, a lot of saving, a lot of hard work.
	And I had a boss which was really talented with real estate and was encouraging me.
	It pushed me a little bit through my initial belief that, oh, I couldn't do it.
	Not at my age, not in this place.
	It's way too expensive.
	And over the course of two years, I found and bought a very nice place.
	So you own it outright, or is it still mortgaged?
	Mortgaged. Oh, okay.
	So you bought a house.
	You don't own a house yet.
	Sorry, yeah.
	I bought it on behalf of the bank.
	Right, right.
	I think we've all been there.
	Okay. Got it.
	And what's the status?
	You said you have no virtuous people in your life, and what does that mean?
	I mean, there's pretty much just co-workers, but that's just acquaintances.
	And then I'm in touch with some of my family and some of their friends, and that's pretty much my whole social circle.
	And dating?
	There's been some dating, but not recently.
	I've had, since turning 18, kind of two relationships.
	One of them lasted six years, and the other one two months.
	All right.
	And can you tell me about the one that lasted six years?
	Yeah. Where do I start with that?
	This was in high school.
	I had just broken up with a girl which was friends with this girl that I ended up dating.
	And pretty much after the breakup she pretty much just hovered around me.
	During breaks in school and whatnot.
	Sorry, just what you?
	Hovered around.
	Hovered around?
	Hovered around.
	Sorry, my apologies.
	Go ahead.
	She hovered around me and we started talking more and it kind of slowly increased the relationship.
	I didn't see her as someone to date right away.
	But yeah, she eventually shared about her self-harm, and I think that kind of pulled me by the heartstrings.
	And we at least had that to connect with, and this was about the time I was learning about therapy and philosophy and whatnot, and I was very interested in that, and she was interested about it as well, so we kind of had that in common.
	And, yeah, so we started hanging out more and more, and she was physically attractive.
	So, I mean, at some point, I, oh boy, I'm not going to take responsibility, am I?
	Things got more intimate after a while, and it kind of de facto became a relationship.
	And, It stayed in this very bad gray area for a while where we weren't formally dating.
	We were kind of in a relationship, but there was no real commitment.
	I know over the course of those six years, I never told her I loved her.
	Sorry, when did it go from, I guess, friends with benefits to more formal exclusive dating?
	If it did.
	I mean, there was no clear separation, so maybe a year, year and a half.
	Okay. Yep, got it.
	And you said that she was self-harming?
	How did that manifest?
	In cutting, and also kind of shutting down, and I think suicidal ideation.
	I assume, of course, that she had experienced Significant amounts of child abuse.
	Yeah, she did.
	Okay, and so what happened over the six years?
	What was the arc of the relationship?
	I'd say for the first three years it kind of was steady at there.
	But then she graduated.
	Graduated high school after me, and she was deciding what to do.
	I'd since graduated high school and started a job in the area, but we had a plan informally to move to another part of the country and live over there.
	To a point where I helped her move after she turned 18 after she graduated and she wanted to get away from her mother that she was living with and I helped her do that but more just helping her guide.
	I didn't really pay for anything or move with her.
	I pretty much had her move over and promised her I would Sorry, she moved where you were both planning to be, but you didn't go.
	No. Why not?
	Sorry if I missed that.
	Yeah, no, I didn't share that.
	I don't know if I fully understand other than I was conflicted and I was not making up my mind.
	What would happen over the next year, year and a half, was that we'd do this long-term relationship thing where she would come over here, or I would fly over there, and spend a couple, a week or so together.
	Sorry, she moved to, I'm sorry if I'm missing this, she moved to be with you, like you said, we're going to move to XYZ place.
	So she moved there, and then...
	I didn't move.
	I did not.
	And I'm sorry.
	I had the excuse.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I'm sorry.
	I had the excuse that I wanted to finish up something for work.
	I mean, I was just starting my career without going to college, so that was important to me, but I also think that was just an excuse not to go.
	Kind of a big bait and switch, isn't it?
	Yeah, pretty big.
	Okay. And so how long did that go on for?
	I think a year, a year and a half.
	Wow. And how long into the relationship was this?
	This was year four and a half and five, something like that.
	Okay. And what's the goal?
	Had you talked about marriage or anything like that?
	I mean, it may not have been on the radar.
	Only in the abstract, not...
	Not her and I. It was quite odd that way.
	Okay. I'm sorry, you asked me another question?
	How did it go during that?
	No, I got it.
	So sort of here, four and five and no talk of marriage, and then how did it end?
	There's a couple more story points in here to touch on.
	Towards the last six months of that long-distance relationship, things were getting bad.
	We were breaking up and getting back together.
	Why were you breaking up?
	She was not happy with my lack of commitment.
	Yeah, no kidding.
	Yeah. I don't blame her.
	Where you were supposed to live together.
	Yep. Yep.
	And at the end she broke up with me like that at the end of one of our meets and we parted ways and I was somewhat okay with that for a month or two and Then something inside me had this,
	I don't know, longing or desire or something, and I was like, I'm moving now.
	Oh, wow.
	Over the course of a month, I rather impulsively just packed up all my stuff, quit my job, and moved over there with not much of a plan.
	Wait, so she was willing to get back together?
	I only told her once I was there.
	Oh, wow.
	Okay. Got it.
	Yeah. Yeah, so we got back together, and that stayed that way for about a year, and I mean, it was a very weird talk.
	I remember that I got back, but I wasn't making any promises, and I was kind of...
	Wishful thinking, like, maybe after therapy, things would just magically...
	We could just make things work.
	And she went along with that.
	Yeah, so things were somewhat good for the next year.
	I got my Airbnb long-term stuff over there, and she had her own place.
	I would visit frequently.
	At the time, I wasn't working, so it was kind of this no-reality, frou-frou living.
	I was just living off the savings.
	Oh, so you weren't working, but she was, is that right?
	Correct, yeah.
	Yeah, and then it all ended.
	After an argument where we had left this Christmas party early because I didn't like to stay with her friends.
	She was working in the restaurant business and I did not like some of her friends.
	And these were the friends in the new place that you were both supposed to originally go to, right?
	Correct, yes.
	So while she was there alone for the longest time, she'd made some friends.
	And yeah, they were into drugs and whatnot, and I did not like them.
	Okay. And was she also herself into drugs?
	Yeah, she was going down that path after meeting them.
	And what sort of drugs was she into?
	Alcohol was the most prevalent, but there was also weed and vaping and some cocaine.
	Okay. Got it.
	And had she stopped self-harming at this point?
	Yes, yes.
	So pretty much earlier, maybe like a year or two into us somewhat being together, the relationship, she had stopped pretty much all of that.
	Okay. And did she herself go to therapy as well to help with that, or did she manage to stop on her own?
	She managed to stop on her own.
	She didn't go to therapy at this point.
	Yeah, so this Christmas party happens.
	I'm not liking the crowd.
	I say, hey, I'm not staying here.
	And she had then told the friend that she was closest to with a white lie that something came up and she needed to go.
	And for whatever reason, I decided to pick a fight over this at the end.
	Sorry, after this evening at the Christmas party where I was like, you can't lie.
	And I was adamant that she apologized and all this.
	To our friend, and that really drove a kind of a divide between us.
	And sorry, remind me, what was her lie?
	That I forget what exactly it was, but that something urgent came up and that we had to go.
	It was just one of these white lies to escape the situation.
	Yeah. So that happened.
	I'm forgetting the exact timeline, but probably right after this, I kind of had my mind set like I want to break up.
	I just want out.
	I don't know if I had really much other than a gut instinct that I just want to get out.
	And then that was a bit of a can of worms.
	I remember staying over at her place for like four days trying to console her, but it was not just consoling.
	She also got the urge to self-harm and thinking back on it, she was threatening me with that and to a point where I called the cops.
	You mean self-harm?
	You mean that she was suicidal?
	There was cutting for sure.
	And I was just pretty much worried at that point that it would be suicidal, but I don't think I had any evidence of that.
	Okay. Yeah.
	Yeah, but I was worried about it because...
	She was very, very emotional about it and I was fearing the worst at this point and I remember calling the police and I was a complete wreck where I just had tunnel vision and I just had to do something about it.
	Yeah, but by the time the police came she had kind of calmed down and seemed kind of okay.
	They left the card and left and that was it.
	Then I got some of her friends involved and made my way out.
	And yeah, that was the end of that relationship.
	And then I eventually...
	Did you catch it all afterwards?
	Have you checked up on her since at all?
	I mean, you've got this funny internet thing where you can sleuth it pretty quickly.
	Yeah, no, I was pretty adamant that we go no contact.
	I was concerned that I would slip back into, oh, this is okay, like I was for the past however many years.
	And that we'd get back together, and I just was like, set.
	No, we're not.
	Oh, she wanted to get back together.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah, she did.
	She did.
	Yeah, and then a month or so afterwards, I was there still with no job, just living there, and I was on some level twiddling my thumbs.
	I got some work remotely through my father back to the place we originally lived, and I started working on that,
	and then I eventually moved back there.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, that was the end of that.
	Okay. And then you had a two-month relationship, you said?
	Yeah. That one was pretty intense.
	That was two years ago?
	Yeah. And I was not actively dating.
	I pretty much just stumbled upon her.
	I was living at my father's still.
	At the time the same father that offered me the job and I came to move with him and so my father started a new work somewhere and somewhere had this woman that they got acquainted and eventually invited for dinner and that's how she came to my attention and yeah I just got It
	was funny because I wasn't thinking about a relationship at the time, so it was kind of hitting me, delayed that we were getting close and getting to know each other.
	How long had you been out of the six-year relationship by this point?
	It would have been I think a year and a half.
	After? Okay, got it.
	No, two and a half years, yeah.
	Yeah, so we were just, I was like firing on all cylinders for excitement of finding someone I had a lot in common with in terms of she was really intelligent and She herself had done therapy and had a good amount of self-knowledge and that.
	And I think fast forward a week of one or two meetings, we were like, yeah, let's call it a relationship.
	And was she about your age?
	She was older.
	I forget.
	Either four or six years older.
	So she was quite a lot more experienced and older.
	She was like early 30s?
	Yes. Give me a second.
	What happened next?
	Yeah, so we had...
	Sorry, I'm kind of stalling on this, trying to lay it out in advance to go in chronological order.
	We had, I guess, a first date, which was a camping trip.
	Camping trip?
	Yes. What the ever-loving hell are you talking about?
	A first date is a camping trip?
	Well, the first official date...
	Not just a day at the park, like a camping trip, like sleeping in the same tent in the wilderness?
	Yep. What are you talking about?
	How does that become...
	Sorry, I don't mean to sound...
	How does that become?
	How is that proposed as a first date?
	Hey, instead of going for coffee, Let's go to the wilderness for a couple of days.
	So it came up because my father was also on this camping trip with some of our family members and I think this was planned in advance and we had gotten we said hey let's become official on the ride there so this just happened to kind of coincide.
	And I guess she trusted me enough at that point knowing my father to pretty much, we were driving out for whatever, four hours to go to this space in the middle of nowhere in the woods and I remember I had a it was in our car in the middle of nowhere,
	it's dark and I had a trunk full of weapons and it was just Kind of a very bizarre situation.
	Sounds like the beginning of a true crime podcast, but all right.
	Dun-dun.
	Okay. Yeah.
	And so she was a big fan of your father's?
	Yes, yes.
	Your father counted off quite well.
	How so?
	I mean, he married your mother.
	Oh, yeah.
	Sorry, you've listened to me for a while, and you don't think that your father has significant dysfunctions?
	I'm not sure where to place you on the spectrum of listeners in terms of unwise to wise or unknowledgeable to knowledgeable.
	You seemed a bit surprised when I said your father's kind of a monster.
	He married a malignant narcissist.
	He turned children over to her who she abused.
	He was a workaholic.
	He did not intervene.
	He did not save.
	He did not protect.
	And he raised at least, well, he raised three dysfunctional kids.
	Sorry, you seem surprised and I'm just not sure where we are in the conversation as far as...
	Being on the same page, because you've listened for a while, right?
	Yes. I was surprised, because I was, at that moment, completely, that was out of my memory, and I wasn't connecting two and two together.
	It was not in my conscious.
	No, no, you said, my father's a monster.
	How? It's not a criticism.
	I'm not criticizing you at all, but you understand I'm a bit surprised.
	Mm-hmm.
	I was mostly surprised that you made that connection there, and I was a bit caught off guard by it.
	No, the reason's important, because if she likes your father and your father's a bit of a monster, her judgment sucks!
	That's true.
	Especially after she's done therapy.
	Part of therapy should be to be able to allow you to identify highly dysfunctional or toxic people so you can stay away!
	You know, if I'm going on a hike in the Amazon, I assume my guide is going to tell me not to lick the bright frogs or something, right?
	Like, help me to identify the toxic stuff in the environment so I'm safe.
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah, and thinking back on it...
	Not your family history at all?
	I guess it's pretty early on, so maybe you hadn't talked about your childhood or anything.
	Um... No, I think...
	I think we already had some talk about it by that point.
	Okay, so she finds out about how virulently toxic your family is, and she's like, let's go camping!
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Okay, so that's somebody with no sense of self-preservation.
	And I don't mean that she would be dismembered in the woods or anything like that, but to get involved in this toxic family situation.
	It would be absolutely unwise.
	I mean, look, come on, man.
	You get older, you get married, you have a daughter.
	And your daughter says, I'm dating a guy, this is his family, we're all going camping.
	What would you say?
	Well, heck no.
	Heck no.
	Yeah, I would be scared for her.
	Right. If she were to do that, yeah.
	Right. So, what have you got going on?
	That overrides women's sense of self-preservation.
	Like there's this total Chad posted a picture on some dating app.
	He's very good looking.
	And he also said that this was an experiment, right?
	He had a history of beating up women.
	And he got flooded with like 800 women.
	Oh, wow.
	Well, you know, it's good that you confess.
	You know, it's time to change.
	I can fix you.
	You know, whatever it is, right?
	So all these women, like with no sense of self-preservation, right?
	This guy beats up women.
	He said, you know, domestic felony violence or something like that.
	And there's no sense of self-preservation, right?
	And so that's beyond a red flag.
	Here's a massive, dysfunctional, abusive family that did just about every terrible thing that could be done to its children.
	Let's go camping.
	And how long ago was this?
	Um... Give me a sec.
	Two years.
	So, how did the trip go?
	It went fine, actually.
	No one got axe murdered.
	But yeah, it went good.
	She insisted we sleep in the same tent.
	She was scared, and I completely fell for that.
	Ah, women in their 30s.
	Who might want kids.
	Right. I can't get pregnant!
	I've got a medical issue.
	I can't get pregnant.
	Let's sit in the hot tub together.
	Anyway, that's reference to an earlier show, but go ahead.
	Yeah. And then we...
	We didn't have sex or anything, but we started talking about it at the very end of the trip.
	How long was the trip?
	It was, I think, a two-day camping trip?
	Maybe three?
	Three days.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, one more thing since you were mentioning the bad judgment part.
	One thing that's coming up now of a red flag that I overlooked that she had...
	Quite a number of relationships.
	She was pretty much a serial dater and I heard somehow her last relationships went and it seemed a bit of a spray and pray situation rather than kind of careful consideration and vetting.
	She doesn't know her taste so she tries everything on the buffet.
	Yeah. Yeah, so the camping trip ends and then I think over text the next day we were talking or continuing the conversation about sex and I was thinking,
	hey, we're holding off.
	I want to wait for marriage until sex.
	And I had mentioned this before.
	But I think she thought I was joking.
	Part of the reason for why I was saying that, because I think I somewhat got dick-napped myself with the previous relationship, and that's why it lasted for so long.
	And what is it that you have, do you think, are you tall, very good-looking, I mean, very muscular, very...
	Something. I mean, do you have a lot of charisma?
	I mean, there's got to be something that has these women sail off into the woods for you for the Deliverance Family weekend.
	So, what do you think is going on that the women are drawn to you?
	Again, I'm not saying you don't have personal qualities of character, but these don't seem to be women who judge personal qualities of character.
	So, what do you think they're going for in you?
	Probably tall and handsome.
	You're tall and handsome?
	And how tall are you?
	Six foot.
	Okay. So not extremely, but...
	Yeah, yeah.
	Above average, yeah.
	Above average.
	And good-looking guy, you...
	All right.
	Okay. Yeah, probably eight out of ten.
	All right.
	And do you stay relatively...
	Do you exercise?
	Do you stay relatively fit?
	I don't exercise for the chronic fatigue syndrome reason.
	I literally will be punished severely if I do try, but I'm still...
	In relatively good shape despite that.
	Okay, so tall, good looking, and so she is acting on lust rather than qualities of character.
	Most likely, yeah.
	Well, I mean, if she likes your dad, who is a pretty catastrophic human being.
	Then she doesn't judge qualities of character, therefore she can't see the qualities within you, therefore she's drawn to you.
	This is just logic, right?
	She's drawn to you for your looks.
	She's a gene hunter.
	Or a height fetishist or something like that, right?
	Yeah, that could be.
	That explains maybe why she liked me as well as my father.
	Okay, so you get back for the trip and you say, no sex before marriage, and what happens then?
	Then she, I mean, I don't know what to call it, asserts a boundary that we talked about this before, but when we talked before, she was saying that she has a,
	I forget whether it's a three-month or a six-month rule or something like that.
	And I was like, okay, yep, that sounds good.
	But she definitely was...
	She has a high sex drive and she was making sure that, hey, you haven't had many partners.
	Are you good, bro?
	Kind of.
	Sorry, I don't know what that means.
	You haven't had many partners.
	Oh, does she thought that there might be some sort of sexual dysfunction because you'd only slept with one or two women before and then you wanted to wait until marriage?
	Yeah. Okay.
	Um, yeah, so she had mentioned the whatever three month rule or something like that.
	And I kind of asked her about that, like, hey, sorry, going back to after the cat going after the camping trip, we talked about it and was like, hey, what happened to this rule?
	And she just, it just kind of kind of poofed into it like, oh, I know you well enough kind of deal or whatever.
	So it's a three month rule until we go camping and then I just know you well enough.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	And I'm...
	Well, and sorry, and also she doesn't like the no sex before marriage rule, A, because of lust, and B, because then she will be evaluated on the basis of her judgment, virtues, and personality.
	Because she can't dangle sexual access to hypnotize a man into overlooking any deficiencies she has in qualities of character, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I think so.
	I think that's why she insisted we stay in the same tent.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	She just wants you all horny and hot and bothered so you don't judge her personality.
	Okay. It's a pretty traditional Our Selected Mating strategy, so all right, go on.
	Yeah, so I was at least pushing back on that, at least in the conversation.
	Sorry, pushing back on having sex sooner?
	Yes. Okay.
	Yeah. And then she said something that triggered me, and I'll share what my recollection was, but it kind of gets a bit hazy,
	because that's the point where I got triggered and kind of had a change of consciousness.
	That's not explaining it well, but I mean, yeah.
	Let me give it a shot.
	So, I think she said that, I mean, that's a hard requirement for her, and I thought, she said that I thought, based on the fact that you were agreeing to go into a relationship,
	and I had stated that this is a need for me, that you were going to do something about your rule, but now you're going, you're You're trying to have your cake and eat a two kind of deal with waiting for sex?
	And she was like, along the lines of, I can't be in the relationship if those are the conditions.
	Sorry, did she literally say that access to your dick was a hard requirement?
	Yes. Not in those terms.
	No, come on.
	This is like a porn script.
	Oh, good.
	I have a hard requirement, and that hard requirement is you and your man-meat.
	Sorry, probably doesn't sound quite like Thanos rubbing himself off on a nymph, but all right.
	So she basically just said, I'm not dating you if you're not going to screw me.
	Yeah. And at that point, I kind of lost my...
	Lunch. My shiz.
	Yeah, yeah, I got it.
	Mostly because I think fear of abandonment.
	I interpreted that as, oh my god, this is terrible, she's leaving me.
	And I'd already gotten somewhat attached to her at this point.
	Was this at the two-month mark?
	I'm not sure what happened between the first date on the camping weekend for three days and then this whole thing about sex.
	Or did it happen after the camping trip and then you guys continued for another month or two?
	Sorry, this was...
	Let me just clarify the timeline.
	I think this was two weeks into having first met her.
	And we met like twice in the first week.
	And then we started getting to know each other and talk like one-on-one in the second week.
	And that camping trip was over the weekend.
	And that's where we...
	But I'm still not sure how we get from the two weeks or the three weeks to the two months, but was this a negotiation about sex for the next month or so?
	No. No.
	I caved.
	Oh, you had sex with her?
	Yes. And I was...
	At that point onwards, I was no longer myself.
	I was just trying to avoid abandonment, which was an impossible thing I was trying to do.
	It sounds like you did manage to overcome your whole objection to lying, though.
	Right, because one of the things that you had as an issue, at least you had an issue, was no lying when you were trying to get away from the party with your former girlfriend.
	And now this woman was a liar.
	She says, I got a three-month rule, and then she's like, nope, psych, I really don't.
	So that's a big lie, right?
	Yeah, that easily slipped past me, that contradiction.
	Well, no, it's not a contradiction.
	It's just a lie.
	I don't have sex before three or six months, and then it's like a week or so in, and she's like, let's do it.
	You and me, baby.
	We ain't nothing but mammals, so let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel.
	So that's just, I mean, she's just a lie.
	She's claiming to have standards, and it turns out she doesn't.
	Yes. And it wasn't like she'd vetted you.
	Because if she'd vetted you, you'd say, okay, so you're the victim of severe child abuse whose last girlfriend was a cutter.
	Well, that's not vetting, right?
	And you have chronic fatigue and, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So that's not very good vetting, right?
	Not at all.
	Okay. So it wasn't like she had these rules, but because you were such a great guy and she'd vetted you, that she was willing to not enforce these rules.
	She had these rules.
	You were throwing off red flags like crazy, too, because you're still embedded in a toxic family structure.
	And going camping with one of your co-abusers, so you wouldn't pass any kind of vetting test from any quality woman, right?
	Yeah, and I somewhat was aware of that, which is why I wasn't actively dating.
	At least one of the reasons.
	Right, you were choosing family over future, got it?
	Okay. Yeah, so then for the next two weeks, there was something that looked...
	Looks like a relationship.
	But it was rocky to begin with.
	I remember just freaking out a lot over anything that displeased her.
	And if we were to disagree on something, that would cause me to overthink to the extreme.
	And my mind was inside, was kind of boiling over, trying to have a relationship, but also avoid...
	I mean, you understand it's a little precious to hear you complaining about abandonment after you dumped your last girlfriend in the wilderness for 18 months.
	You gave her the rug pull, right?
	Hey, let's move out to this place.
	Okay, I'm not coming.
	You've got to live there for 12 to 18 months without me.
	I mean, that was worse than abandonment because you basically you bait and switched her into living together in some other place and then you didn't even go.
	Yep. Okay.
	So this woman went to having a lot of, she went from I guess the two-monther, she basically had a lot of power over you because you felt that she was going to reject you.
	Is that right?
	Yes, yes.
	And why did you think she was going to reject you?
	What was she saying or doing that gave you that impression or concern?
	I thought she had standards and she was still vetting me.
	And I was just worried about falling apart.
	Short. Okay.
	In what sense were you afraid of falling short?
	What were you going to be missing for her?
	That's a good question.
	Right off the top of my head, I don't know that there was anything specific, just in general, that something...
	Wouldn't work in the relationship.
	In my mind, that could be any number of things.
	Sorry, that's not very specific.
	Well, she somehow gave you the impression that she was in charge.
	That she was the one doing the deciding and you had to just kind of beg and hope and plead with her to choose you.
	So she put herself somehow, and I'm not sure exactly how, but she put herself in the situation of being the one Mm-hmm.
	I don't have a clear answer, but the closest one I got is that, I mean, I got attached, and then I started fearing So,
	is it that the sex was so good that it was like a drug?
	Or the sex gave you such good feelings that it was kind of like a drug that you didn't want to get withdrawn?
	Is it something like that?
	No, I think it was even before during the camping trip, just that intimacy.
	What do you mean by intimacy?
	That's a much stretched word.
	So what do you mean by intimacy?
	Just having someone who I felt cared for me, could talk to, also get physically close to, but not necessarily sex.
	But if she cared for you, then why would you fear abandonment?
	And again, I'm not criticizing.
	I'm just trying to follow the logic thread.
	I'm just trying to follow the logic thread.
	I think I would have had that fear regardless of what she did, if that makes sense.
	But you didn't have that with your last girlfriend, with the six-year-old girl, right?
	No, I think because I always kept her at an arm's length away.
	I mean, and you ended up abandoning her, right?
	To the point where she was suicidal.
	Yeah. So...
	You went from being the one who had all the power to the one who had no power between the two women, is that right?
	Yeah, I flip-flopped.
	Okay. Got it.
	And so then how did it end?
	It was quite a drawn-out, lengthy process where...
	Things weren't going good.
	It was like a week and two that were a week, week and a half into the relationship.
	There were arguments and things that I remember a lot of times where I would go back to apologize to her for things I've done and it almost seemed like I kept just fucking up every which way.
	I apologize for what had you done.
	you.
	Gosh, my mind is throwing a blank right now.
	Paul, were you just apologizing as a sort of preemptive strike?
	Like, just in case she was upset about something?
	Oh, I'm sorry about earlier.
	That kind of thing, right?
	No. No, I did at the time think I'd done some stuff wrong.
	One of them was an example where, oh yeah, that was the major one, the overthinking.
	And one of the ways I dealt with that, quote dealt, were to share some of my thoughts with her on that, which was a really bad idea.
	I'm sorry, I don't understand what overthinking means in the context of this relationship and that being a fault that you have to apologize for.
	The overthinking wasn't the fault, but the way I was dealing with overthinking, which I'll define in a second, was kind of, best word, verbally vomiting on her of trying to, I don't know,
	explain my thought process.
	One of the things I most remember doing this about, Help me explain it.
	I'd learned I'd hurt her quite bad, or at least that's what she said, when I called her too old.
	And I kind of did that in the beginning of the relationship.
	Yeah. So you're very sensitive to abandonment, but you call a woman too old to date.
	Thank you.
	Because, I mean, the victim-victimizer thing is pretty strong here, right?
	Because you're portraying yourself as, you know, all kinds of sensitive, and I was just afraid of rejection, and then it turns out that you told the woman in her early 30s she's too old for you today.
	Which is a brutal thing to say.
	I know.
	So I'm trying to figure out, like, all of this sensitivity doesn't seem to add up to shit, really.
	Because you can be kind of brutal, right?
	That's true.
	Okay, I'm just trying to balance these two things in my mind.
	Okay, so she was upset, and how long into the relationship did you tell her she was too old for you to date?
	It was the second time we met solo, so like a week into knowing her.
	Okay. And in what context of the conversation did You're Too Old to Date come up?
	Gosh, I don't remember exactly or approximately even.
	At this time, I wasn't thinking of her as a potential dating partner.
	No, that you wouldn't have told her she was too old.
	That only makes sense in the context of dating, right?
	I mean, if she was going to play pickleball with you, would you say you're too old to play pickleball or something?
	It has to be in the context of dating, right?
	Because you're talking about fertility windows, right?
	Yes. She's a couple of years away from geriatric pregnancy, and if you want a bunch of kids, she might be too old, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay. Yep.
	All right.
	So what was the context?
	I mean, if you don't remember, that's fine.
	I was just wondering if you did.
	I was just wondering if you could see it.
	Sorry. What was the context?
	She told her that she was too old.
	I don't know if this clarifies it or not.
	This is the second time we met.
	I wasn't thinking of her as a dating partner.
	I think this was my first time I'd mentioned that.
	I'm trying to weasel around the fact that I'm about to say it was unconscious that therefore I'm not responsible.
	But this was the second time...
	Listen, just be honest with me.
	If you don't want to answer the question, just tell me you don't.
	But let's not waste time with this fog, right?
	It's fine if you don't want to answer the question or if you don't remember.
	However, that's fine.
	But let's not waste time with the fog.
	Okay, so I'll just move on?
	Okay. Alright.
	Sorry, you sound passive there.
	Like you're okay, like you're not going to answer this question about being kind of mean, and so you just want me to move on.
	Don't exceed, because it's your choice.
	Yeah, so boy, I do feel like I am doing the fog, but also there's something important there to share.
	Potentially important.
	I still want to share that.
	Uh-huh.
	So, I mean...
	So the first two times we met, each time I'd blurted out something at least that seemed just coming out directly from my subconscious.
	And the first one, first time I blurted out danger, I think when we were talking about our childhoods and whatnot.
	Sorry, you just blurted out the word danger?
	Blurted out the word danger.
	You just said danger?
	Yeah. Okay.
	What was that?
	I think we were talking about our childhoods and I wasn't saying danger about the fact that of what we were sharing about,
	more that we were talking in depth about this and somewhat I was bonding with her over that.
	I have no idea what you just said.
	I'm sorry, I don't know what that means.
	I was bonding with her.
	Oh, so she was talking about her childhood and you said danger in that her childhood was dangerous?
	No, not in that sense.
	Not in that sense.
	I think that the fact that I was starting to get some attraction to her I started blurting out danger.
	Oh, so being attracted to you is dangerous.
	Is that what it means?
	I think so.
	Okay. And that was the first time.
	And the second time was I also blurted out I think the topic of dating was up.
	And I just pretty much blurted this out with not a moment's thought.
	And it only had to be explained to me why that was very hurtful.
	Oh, so in the topic of dating, you said, you're too old.
	Yes. Okay.
	I had already ruled her out of my mind.
	Right, so then you became a challenge that she'll prove to you that she can.
	Like, if you think she's too old and you're a younger, attractive man, then she'll prove to you that she can get you.
	Yeah, okay.
	And then the whole dating relationship becomes kind of like a vengeance against what you said.
	Something like that.
	Okay. Yeah, and part of the verbal vomit or overthinking was I was trying to...
	No, it's just cruel!
	What are you talking about?
	Verbal vomit, overthinking?
	You're cruel!
	You're cruel!
	Yeah, what I was saying was really cruel because I was trying to go into detail of why I was saying that and that was just not good.
	I'm sure that your last girlfriend, the six-year woman, I'm sure that she did mean things too, but it was really cruel to say to a woman who'd had such trauma, "I will meet you in this new place and we're going to start this glorious life together," and
	show up, show up, break up with her, come back without telling her, try and get her back, and then break up with her again.
	And then complain that you're very sensitive to abandonment issues and being rejected.
	Hmm. Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Anyway, so how did it end with the early 30s woman?
	It ended that she kind of had too much of this saying that it was kind of draining her all this effort of trying to speak with me and me being cruel in this way and then she left on a trip and For a while,
	and I still had a thought that, oh, I could get her back, and I was desperately trying that, and after about three weeks of texting and trying to get her, I just, at some point, said, like, that's all I can do,
	I gotta give up now.
	Okay. And how long ago was that?
	Oh, it's two years, right, you said?
	Two years.
	Okay, two years.
	Okay, and then that just petered out from there, right?
	Yeah, and after that, that was it.
	And do you think that she should have gotten back together with you?
	Sorry? Do you think that she should have gotten back together with you?
	Do you think it would have been a good idea for her?
	No. No, but at the time, that's what I wanted.
	No, I get it.
	But in hindsight, she made the right decision.
	That was the right decision, for sure.
	Okay. And what's happened in the two years since, if anything, in the dating world?
	Zero. Okay, got it.
	Okay, and do you want to get married and have kids?
	Yes. All right.
	And was there a particular event or circumstance that happened that had you want to talk to me?
	I mean, in general, some growing frustration during my therapy.
	So one thing, I had started therapy.
	Around the time, right pretty much at the end or a little overlapping with that relationship and I've stayed there since but I'm feeling like I'm not making progress but I also know that's I think somewhat bullshit and I'm just not I have a tendency to minimize things.
	Sorry, when you say you're not making progress What metric are you using?
	And of course, I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I just want to make sure I know what you're saying.
	What metric are you using to determine that you're not making progress?
	There's kind of two.
	There are two.
	One is that the major dysfunctional behaviors I have are still there.
	And two, What I'm doing doesn't feel like I'm even on the path to affecting them.
	Sorry, was there a three?
	I don't want to interrupt you.
	No, those were the two.
	And what are the major dysfunctional behaviors that you would like to see resolved over therapy, or perhaps over the course of this conversation?
	I mean, the coolness is one, for sure.
	Well, I'm not sure that you've even acknowledged it, have you?
	Not until this call, no.
	Okay, so cruelty.
	What else?
	Thank you.
	There's a thing I call whipping myself, where I think I'm verbally abusing myself.
	I'm not exactly conscious of it, but I can feel its effects.
	And then there's...
	The fact that I'm quite isolated and don't socialize.
	That's also another big one.
	And are you isolated?
	Do you work from home?
	Did you still work with your father?
	Not consistently.
	I've been on and off working with him and he's kind of in the background.
	Sorry, what percentage of your income comes from working with your father?
	Zero. But we're working at the same company.
	What do you mean?
	If you work for him, don't you get paid?
	Sorry, I started let's say after I got back from this first six-year relationship, I worked at a small company that he was part of,
	but it wasn't his company.
	Oh, he worked there, but he didn't own it.
	Correct, yeah.
	He was pretty high up.
	But he put a good word in for you, and I'm sure being son helped you get the job, right?
	Yes. Sorry, what was the question?
	Well, you said that you still work off and on with your father, and I was asking, What percentage of your income comes from working with your father?
	And you said zero, and then I was a little confused because if you're still working with your father to some degree, then some of your income must come from that job.
	Otherwise, it's a charity or something like that.
	I don't know how to give you a number.
	Do you want like an average over the past, whatever, two years?
	Or do you want it now?
	I don't know exactly how to answer that.
	I'm sorry.
	Come on, man.
	Don't fuck me, bro.
	Don't fuck me.
	Because do you think I'm asking for an exact percentage?
	Do you think I'm an accountant here?
	A quarter, half, a third, ten percent.
	I mean, just some rough shit, man.
	Just don't nickel and dime me at this point.
	I'm just trying to be efficient for you.
	I appreciate that.
	Right now, probably a quarter, and before it was between half and 100%.
	And before refers to what?
	Let's say when I just moved back here after the six-year relationship, that was 100%, and then it's gone down since then to, let's say, now 25%.
	See? Wasn't that hard.
	Okay. And so, in what field do you work that you get your remaining 75%?
	And if you don't want to say, that's fine.
	You can give me a rough guesstimate.
	Or just you can tell me this.
	Are you isolated because you work from home?
	No, I don't work from home.
	For the past let's just say past, whatever, four years since I moved from The place with the six-year relationship.
	I worked at a small company, like a startup, and there was only a handful of people there, so my dad being one of them for a while, and that's somewhat of the isolation.
	So I would go to the office, but there was, for the longest time, maybe just one or two people out there, or sometimes just me.
	Okay. And now?
	Sorry. So now are you still working for the same small startup?
	No. I went to a different company and it has a good number of people.
	Okay. And you go into the office, right?
	Yes. And do you socialize at all?
	Even if it's just for lunch with the people in the office?
	I do.
	And do you have any friends that you hang out with?
	Okay. I mean, I appreciate that, honestly.
	Okay, so bad habits that you want to get over.
	The cruelty and the self-attack, which are, of course, related.
	And the isolation.
	Is that right?
	Yeah. There's probably a whole list, but those are the ones that are in my face right now.
	And from 1 to 10, how blunt do you want me to be?
	Thank you.
	Eight or a nine.
	Eight or a nine.
	All right.
	So you've been listening to me for many, many years, right?
	Like a decade.
	Okay. So you've been listening to me for a decade.
	So why haven't you done anything I've suggested?
	I...
	I think I've tried, I just am not successful at it.
	Like, therapy as one, and...
	Well, okay, I get that, but have you listened to my show on how to find a great therapist, or have you asked the community for therapist recommendations?
	And the therapist that you have follows sort of the moral and blunt recommendations that I've had, but it's just not succeeding.
	Is that right?
	And then why would you stay with a therapist that's not...
	Where it's not succeeding.
	I mean, therapy isn't a magical word, right?
	That's just one of the tools in the arsenal.
	And it's the one I have the least control over.
	I can suggest going to therapy, but I can't obviously control the quality of the therapist, right?
	So let's just drop the therapy stuff.
	What about, have you had the honest conversations with your parents and family members, but in particular your parents?
	About the horrible abuses you suffered as a child.
	So, with my mom, no.
	I did leave a letter.
	I don't think I mentioned this before, but right, so I lived with my mom up to the age of whatever, 17 and a half.
	And then I saw an opportunity to live with my dad, and I took that and left a letter.
	I don't remember what that letter said.
	Okay, let's not count that.
	Let's know, because that's not what I've...
	I've never suggested anything like that, so we're just going to drop that one.
	So, in the 10 years that you've been listening, you have not had a direct and honest conversation with your parents about what happened to you as a child.
	Or what they did to you as a child, right?
	I mean, I had something like that with my father.
	But I found it quite hard to be honest and consistently on my side.
	I would just hold when it becomes too uncomfortable.
	Okay. So you haven't had direct and honest conversations with your parents as I have recommended, right?
	No. Okay.
	And your parents, have they gone through any particular moral revolution?
	Have they done therapy or anger management or had any self-knowledge illuminations?
	Have they taken ownership for the abuse they inflicted upon you as a child, and have they apologized?
	I mean, we both know the answer to this, so let's not waste time with hedging around.
	No. Right.
	And that's it, right?
	So no, they haven't, right?
	Okay, so you have unrepentant child abusers in your life at the moment, right?
	The people who abused you as a child are still welcome in your life, and you lie to them continually through omission, right?
	You lie by omission.
	I'm having a bit of trouble here acknowledging that.
	No, no, listen, I could be wrong.
	So, I mean, this is my evaluation.
	Of course, I could be completely wrong, so I'm happy to be corrected.
	I just don't want the sort of hedging stuff like I left a letter 10 years ago and that kind of crap, right?
	So if they haven't taken ownership for the abuses they inflicted upon you as a child, then they are unrepentant child abusers.
	And if they're still in your life and you haven't been honest with them, then
	are surrounded by unrepentant, toxic, malignant child abusers.
	For whatever reason, I'm having trouble...
	I can put that label very easily on my mom, but with my dad, I have a harder time doing that.
	And he has, in some way, apologized, but not a real apology.
	I'm sorry, are they still married?
	No, sorry, they separated.
	Oh, sorry, yeah, you said that earlier, that you went to go and live with your father.
	Sorry. So how old were you when they separated?
	Three years old.
	So quite young.
	Oh, okay, okay.
	So you were quite young.
	And what was your relationship with your father like when you were growing up?
	There was kind of a whatever, visitation on the weekends.
	Oh, so your mother had you on the weekdays and your father had you on the weekends?
	Yeah, one day of the weekend and we'd pretty much go to a park and Either play when I was age-appropriate or he started teaching me some of the technical things that I still use to this day for work.
	And do you know what, have you ever heard the story of what caused the divorce?
	Yes, I have, from my father.
	I haven't heard it from my mother's side, but it goes something like this.
	When I was about two or three, My father, my mother, and my two other brothers, we were all living in the same house.
	Then they took a trip.
	Then my mom and I, and she took me to a trip back to kind of a country of origin for us.
	We're first generation immigrants, I guess.
	I took a trip there and my father says that there was such a relief from some kind of tension that my dad and my two other brothers felt that after that they decided to split apart.
	Well, not the brothers.
	After that, they being your parents.
	Your father decided to split apart because he was relieved when your mother was away.
	Correct. Okay, got it.
	And they were separated.
	I don't think it was a legal divorce.
	They were just separated and like divorce and then when I was probably around 10 or so my father tried to get remarried and in order to do that he needed to do a divorce and from my father's side this is where my mom Kind of went apeshit with the legal system and
	tried everything in her power to make his life hell.
	In terms of the courts and visitation rights and whatnot.
	I know it eventually went through the divorce and he did get remarried.
	I don't think that lasted long.
	got divorced from that lady as well.
	you Thank you.
	Sorry, I kind of lost my train of thought.
	Do you know what your father found unbearable about your mother?
	I don't think he's ever shared it directly.
	I mean, I probably know, so, okay.
	Now, tell me a little bit about, you said in your email, I was constantly in danger of violence from my middle brother and abandonment from my sadistic mother.
	And, of course, I'm not disagreeing with your evaluation or anything like that, but I would like to understand what you were experiencing as a child.
	Yeah, so I guess it was maybe also around the age Just for some background, so let's say around age three, my parents separated.
	And it initially worked this way that on one side was my dad and two brothers, and then it was just my mom and I. And I was supposedly her golden child.
	A year or two afterwards, my middle brother came to live with us.
	At first, that sounded great.
	I was happy to have someone there.
	But I quickly found out that we would fight, and he was pretty violent.
	He was two years older than me, so he always had the upper hand.
	And I'm sorry, he was your father's child?
	Yeah, these are all my father's children.
	Sorry. Okay, I got it.
	You're the youngest?
	Three of us, yeah.
	I'm the youngest of three.
	Okay, got it.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, so my brother and I would fight.
	I don't have a good recollection of it, but I remember the conclusion that it was pretty much daily.
	That we would just tussle and fight.
	And I remember asking my mom to stay or help or do something and that fell on deaf ears.
	And how bad would the fights get?
	I mean, they felt pretty bad at the time.
	I never ended up in the hospital or for broken bone, so just soft tissue damage.
	But I do remember three times where I almost drowned by his doing.
	One of them included him holding my head in a shallow body of water.
	Oh, so, I mean, he had kind of a murderousness to him.
	Oh, yeah.
	Oh, yeah.
	I think if he would have had it his way, he would have offed me.
	Okay. And I know from my experience and what my father has told me that once I came into the picture, my middle brother was very resentful and was wanting attention that he didn't get,
	and he felt that I was getting the better treatment.
	That's all a lie.
	Yeah, just so you know.
	There's this idea that, oh, siblings, you know, they just, he resents the attention given to the younger sibling, and he's acting out, and like, that's just not true.
	I know families where the siblings get along.
	I know a family with four brothers, and they all get along very well.
	They all help and support each other.
	They were at a play park, and I saw the older ones, you know, making sure that the younger ones were safe and learning well, and that's all, that's just it.
	It's a coat.
	It's a lie so that parents can somehow Blame your shitty childhood on a birth order that they couldn't, like, well, hey, what are you going to blame us for having more than one kid?
	That's just what brothers do.
	It's not true.
	I'm not saying it as that because he is the middle brother that he got treated badly.
	I think he was treated badly by my mom.
	Preferentially, she was treating me better than him.
	Right, but that's the issue.
	I just want to be clear, and maybe this is not what you're saying, but the birth order has nothing to do with it.
	It's just the cruelty of the parents.
	Yes, yes.
	I think she was either extra cruel or took the opportunity.
	Yeah. And I think that set him fundamentally against me for the remainder of my childhood.
	That's by design, right?
	Yeah. I think so.
	Yeah. And also gave me a very convenient person to hate and point blame towards that was not my mom.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Yeah, so that pretty much continued until...
	So, one thing I should note that my brother was diagnosed with autism and Asperger's.
	The middle brother.
	Yeah. My oldest brother is kind of not in the picture for a long time because he was I think 8 or 10 years older than me.
	So he was already kind of off after high school for most of my childhood.
	Okay. Yeah, so autism and I remember him being taken to all kinds of doctors and all that and mental health.
	Saw does a lot of bullshit, but they tried to drug him and whatnot.
	Around the time where I'm jumping here, if you don't mind, by the time he was 16 or something, he was notably stronger than my mom and the men she kept around.
	And I think she I remember this camping trip where it took like two or three adults to pin him down after some kind of fight.
	And I think my mom was like, okay, I'm shipping him out to some special school in the middle of nowhere, very far away.
	And that's...
	I lost my train of thought, but yeah.
	Until then, he was in the household.
	And does he have significant intellectual disabilities?
	I mean, is he unable to work?
	After he left at 16, I have not kept at all in touch with him.
	I pretty much hate his guts.
	Although now I'm kind of softening up to saying he was just a pawn in the whole thing.
	But... Huh.
	Thank you.
	Yeah. But last I heard he was in a rural third world country with a I forget the detail whether it was a sex change or he got cosmetic surgery to look like an anime character.
	Wow. Some really fucked up shit.
	Okay. Alright.
	So, you said your younger brother is not too bad, but still sides with your mother, is that right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And tell me more about that.
	I mean, the one that comes straight to mind is when I wrote a letter to my mom when I was leaving and whatnot.
	I remember shortly afterwards, my oldest brother sent me a message.
	I don't remember what it said, but it was kind of a stab at me for doing this.
	But yeah, I'm kind of drawing a blank of how he was like for most of my childhood.
	He would kind of just visit on holidays.
	And I kind of admired him and he was kind of the cool oldest brother and whatnot.
	But, yeah.
	I don't know what more I can say about him.
	And how's his life going as a whole?
	I mean, I haven't checked up on him much.
	The last I know of him was when I was around 16 or something.
	He was somewhat making it.
	He had a career in a pretty despicable field, which is social media advertising and spam.
	He parties a lot.
	I don't think he had any...
	Long-term relationships, but I could be wrong about that.
	Definitely not married by the time he was like 28. Okay.
	And how have things, how did things go with your brother, sorry, with your father over the course of your teenage years?
	Mm-hmm. Um...
	Thank you.
	Sorry, can I add one more detail from before?
	One, I don't have many clear memories from my childhood, but one that is quite, I think, important is that around age six or seven, I remember being in some conflict with my mom in the house,
	and she...
	Just suddenly stood up without even saying something and walked off.
	Just abandonment like that.
	And I remember tiptoeing, following her.
	That's my only hope of survival.
	Tiptoeing, following her down the stairs and whatnot.
	I think she got in the car.
	I don't know if she left at that point.
	The memory kind of ends.
	But yeah, at that point onwards, I pretty much knew I was on my own in terms of the bond I had with my mom.
	And I wouldn't say I ever had a very strong bond with my father.
	More like a mentorship professor kind of.
	...thing going on there.
	Anyway, going back to your question about my father in my teenage years, by the time I was still doing visitations every weekend,
	and we would pretty much do engineering projects or coding or circuit...
	With him, and that's what we would do together.
	That's his area of comfort.
	Why did he marry your mother?
	And give her children?
	Three? Yeah.
	So, they got married pretty early.
	I'm asking for the why, not the when.
	I need to be efficient, right?
	We've been talking for an hour and a half and we still have to get to the issues, right?
	So I just need you to be a little bit more efficient.
	So I'm asking why, not when.
	I think it was lust.
	Okay. Is he religious?
	They had some status because they were both going to this prestigious university and I think status and Physical attraction.
	And is he religious?
	No, no.
	I think both my parents are atheists.
	Okay. Okay, so he got married to a dangerous narcissistic, you called her, I think, a malignant narcissist.
	I'll accept that.
	You know her, of course, infinitely better than I do.
	So he got married to a very destructive woman and decided to give her three children.
	Yes. So, first, there was one they had by accident.
	No. No, come on, man.
	I think Mary, of Jesus' fame, could claim accident.
	Everybody else has a choice.
	So, first child was by bad contraceptive practice.
	Risky sex without a condom.
	Timing the moon or something like that.
	Okay, so she got pregnant, right?
	Or they had risky sex or the condom broke or something like that.
	So there's the morning after pill.
	Well, first of all, there's 18 different forms of birth control the woman can be on.
	And then there's the morning after pill and then there's abortion.
	And please understand, I'm not recommending abortion, but I'm just saying if they're atheists, they wouldn't have any particular moral qualms about it.
	It's still a choice to have the child.
	Then there's also, even if you have the child, that's giving the child up for adoption, right?
	There's lots and lots of different ways in which this can be dealt with.
	So they chose, there's nothing accidental about it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So they chose to keep my oldest brother.
	And they were both still in university at the time.
	And my grandma was then given...
	Given this brother to raise and whatnot.
	And I know, next part of the story, my mom never liked how this brother was raised.
	So... Wait, sorry.
	They literally handed over your eldest brother who has the autism and the Asperger's.
	They handed over...
	No, no, no.
	That's the middle brother.
	The oldest brother seems kind of fine.
	Okay, so they handed over the brother to the grandmother who basically raised him, is that right?
	Yes, and that's the grandmother from my father's side.
	Okay. And do you know how long your brother stayed with your grandmother?
	I assume at some point he was raised by your parents?
	Um... I honestly don't know.
	Okay. But it was mostly my grandma.
	Alright. And then?
	Then, whatever, six or something years afterwards, my father had gotten a job.
	Yeah, he'd gotten a job.
	I don't know about my mom, where she was at this place, but she was at this time, she was she what my father says that she wanted to raise Raise some children right.
	And that's why she, at that point, started pressuring my father for kids.
	And he, at some point, he says, just caved.
	And gave her kids.
	Okay. And wasn't involved.
	Yeah. Yeah, he is.
	And then, yeah, that's...
	And then middle brother and me two years apart.
	Okay. All right.
	And how's your relationship with your mother at the moment?
	I have not spoken to her since I left at age 17. Ah, okay.
	So you just left and didn't look back and you have not spoken to her since?
	Correct. Yeah.
	I just, I don't want...
	I don't want to do anything with her.
	And has she tried to reach out or has she tried to contact you?
	Once in the beginning and then once four years ago, but I ignored both of them because I just know she's plotting something.
	It wasn't an apology or anything like that.
	And I was concerned that if I were to talk to her, I would just...
	She knows what buttons to press that I would just be feeding myself to a tiger at that point.
	Okay. Alright.
	So your father couldn't stand your mother and then left her with three kids?
	Yes. And he went heavily into work as, I think, a way of avoiding the family situation.
	Right. And did he, other than giving you technical skills, Did he provide you any wisdom in terms of virtue and truth and how to be happy and how to fall in love and how to run a relationship?
	Based upon the bitter lessons that he'd experienced, did he provide you any of that when you were growing up?
	No, no.
	No. I remember with the six-year relationship, he did warn me once that this was not a good thing.
	She was cutting and that.
	You didn't think she was a good girl for me, but at the time he had no credibility with me with that, with his history of relationships.
	So what is your view of your father's responsibility in life and in the disastrous, as you said, your childhood was a near-death experience, right?
	I mean, I assume this was in part the near-drowning or the constant violence from your brother.
	But how do you view your father's role in all of this and his moral responsibility?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I think I have to be frank and wrong, I think.
	I don't give him much responsibility for that.
	I know he chose it, but I kind of think my mom tricked him.
	Although, to the contrary, I did ask him if there was any red flags before they got married that my mom had this kind of sadistic or malignant kind of cruel tendencies to her.
	And he said yes, that There was one time that she volunteered to go off and berate a guy who was misusing university resources.
	And he saw that the devil inside her then.
	Yeah. Okay, sorry.
	I wasn't sure if you were finished that story or not.
	Okay. Would you say that your father is more intelligent than your mother?
	It's hard to say.
	They're both pretty darn intelligent.
	And what's the sadistic stuff that your mother did to you, other than you mentioned the one time that she walked away when you were having a conflict, which is terrible, of course, right?
	But what else did your mother do that was sadistic?
	What comes to mind was one incident where I had come this was maybe around age 13 if I would put a guess on it.
	I had come home from school with some bad grades and she demanded that I go into the shower And she proceeded to beat me with socks with the water on.
	Oh, like wet socks?
	But nothing in the socks?
	I don't believe there was anything in the socks.
	But I'm still kind of baffled of what the fuck was that?
	I don't remember if I was clothed or not.
	I'm sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, sorry.
	I wasn't sure if I was closed or not in that dream, but either way, it's...
	Sorry, in that dream?
	No, in that memory.
	Okay. Yeah, so it's just designed, obviously, to leave no marks and to frighten you and to say, basically, next time there'll be a roll of quarters in the sock or something like that, probably.
	Okay, what else?
	Okay, what else?
	Thank you.
	My memory kind of fails me here.
	I mostly remember that conclusion, but not that much evidence, if that makes sense.
	And did you ever tell your father that you were being treated very cruelly by your mother?
	By the woman that he put in charge of you?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yes, yes, I did.
	And that's when the opportunity to move Ian with him opened up at 17 and a half.
	Yeah, I'm talking not six months before you were finished childhood.
	I'm talking about when you were a kid.
	Somewhere between three and 16 and a half.
	17 and a half, sorry.
	No. But that conversation kind of covers from before, so I think I want to share it.
	No. Listen, bro, you've got to be more efficient with my time here.
	If it's really important, you can tell me, but if it's not, let's keep moving.
	Yeah, I think it's important I'll keep it brief, that I told them what my mom was doing and all that, and my father pretty much broke down in tears.
	Sorry, how old were you?
	Seventeen and a half.
	Yeah, no, I'm talking about before that.
	No. Okay, so your father broke down in tears, and what happened then?
	Sorry, I've just told you to move on, but if you told your father about what had happened with your mother, he broke down in tears, and then what?
	Yeah. Yeah, and he said he never suspected it, that she always treated me well, and blah blah blah blah blah.
	She always treated you well?
	Yes. That's what he said.
	He couldn't stand her.
	Correct. So he's viewed her as highly toxic, I assume, right?
	Because if it was his fault, then he would have not left, but rather improved.
	So he viewed her as beyond salvation, and that she was toxic.
	Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me either.
	No, it makes perfect sense.
	He's lying.
	He's just gaslighting you.
	Oh, I had no idea that the woman I couldn't stand and I ran away from basically in the middle of the night leaving behind three children and who dragged me through court in the most horrendous fashion possible, sticking lawyers on me like a whole band of Cujos.
	I had no idea that she might treat my children badly.
	Oh, no!
	How could I know?
	I mean, that's just a lie.
	Now that you mention it, yeah.
	That is the simplest explanation.
	Tell me how that could not just be a lie.
	I mean, it certainly would be the most logical thing for somebody who doesn't want to take responsibility.
	It's the old, I didn't know!
	How could I know?
	And it's unprovable.
	I never saw her treating my kids badly.
	No. Okay, did you tell your father about the violence you were experiencing from your brother?
	Oh yeah, all the time, yeah.
	And what did he do about that?
	I don't remember anything.
	There might have been something used in court, but nothing that impacted me.
	So he's willing to fight for a divorce, and he's willing to fight your mother.
	So he can go fuck some new woman and get married to her, right?
	But not for the sake of protecting his own children from violence, near-death experience, and toxic malignity, right?
	Yeah. So he's selfish.
	So he'll fight like hell just so he can get married, which turns out to be a divorce anyway, but he won't fight like hell to protect his children.
	Selfish! You think your mom's the only narcissist?
	Hmm. Oh, I'll fight her for years because some woman wants to marry me, and I want to please her, but I won't fight her for five minutes to protect my children.
	One of my kids almost got murdered by being drowned, but it's fine.
	I can still see them once a week.
	And, you know, the important thing is I teach you how to code.
	That's my job as a father, not protecting you from decisions that I made about who to have kids with.
	No, no, I'm going to teach you some syntax.
	Yeah, that's important.
	you.
	I feel quite sad hearing that.
	And then, when my son brings up how much he suffered, I burst into tears, and he ends up comforting me.
	Oh yeah, that happened.
	Never bring it up again!
	And I've tried to bring it up before, and he's like, I don't want to go there.
	We already went down this road.
	I can't go there.
	So he can't even talk about it, but you were supposed to fucking live with it.
	He can't even discuss your mother, but she had total control over you for six days a week.
	He can't even use the words.
	But you had to have your face pushed in water and almost drowned.
	Yeah. So that's weak.
	And you see, it doesn't fucking matter if he wants to talk about it or not.
	If he was any kind of father that I understand is virtuous, he would say, holy shit, it's really important for you that we talk about this, so we're gonna talk about this.
	Because it's important to you, and it matters to you.
	As opposed to, well, I don't want to.
	I mean, let me ask you this.
	Did you want to go to school as a kid?
	Did you really enjoy being in school?
	No, no.
	Oh, and I'm sure your parents, I'm sure at some point your parents figured out that you didn't like going to school.
	Did you have to go to school?
	I did.
	Yeah, for years and years and years!
	So you've got to do shit for years and years and years.
	Did you want to go back to your mom's after spending time with your dad?
	Nope. Did you end up having to go back?
	Yep. So you see, you at the age of 3 and 4 and 5 and 10 and 15, you've got to have discipline, son.
	You've got to do all the things that are tough.
	But I won't have one fucking conversation that could save your soul because I'm uncomfortable.
	It gives me owies.
	It hurts me in the fee-fees.
	Bullshit. Absolute bullshit.
	Bullshit. Bullshit.
	Bullshit. Thank you.
	You see what I'm saying?
	Yeah, I do.
	you. Thank you.
	And the excuses you give to your father are the excuses you give to yourself.
	See, your father says, I don't want to talk about it, son.
	Therefore, I'm not going to talk about it, because I have the self-discipline of a fucking tablecloth.
	And then you say, well, I'm feeling negativity talking about these important things with my father, so I'm just not going to, because I learned my lesson from Daddy.
	That you just don't do.
	You just don't do what you don't feel like doing.
	Oh, unless you're five and have to go to school, then you fucking shut up and go to school.
	Thank you.
	Hence, when I said your dad's a bit of a monster, you were surprised.
	I somehow have this alternate reality where he's somehow the victim and just made a bad choice and all that, and I've had trouble knowing that.
	A bad choice is when you take the wrong turn.
	On the highway.
	Not when you subject children to narcissistic, sadistic, malignant child abuse for decades.
	That's not a choice.
	That's a habit.
	Yeah. And he did mention during that talk at age 17 and a half that he did see in my eyes this fear when he would see me.
	So he definitely admitted he didn't know what was going on.
	I don't think it's a big stretch to connect two and two together.
	Sorry, and I would give him more sympathy if he hadn't fought your mom for years to get remarried.
	Sorry, I'm saying for years.
	How long did their court battles go on about the divorce?
	That's probably around, right, about maybe two years or something like that.
	Maybe two years.
	Okay, so he's willing to fight.
	Your mom, because his girlfriend wants to get married, but he's not willing to fight your mom to protect you, the children.
	I mean, if he had talked to a lawyer, I'm no lawyer, so this is not legal advice, right?
	This is just my, of course, amateur idiot understanding of how these systems work, and I don't even know which country you're in, so that doesn't matter, but my guess is that if he had documented in particular The near-murderous violence inflicted upon you by your brother while under the care,
	custody and control of your mother, that he would have been able to get custody, or at least make a damn good case.
	I'm pretty sure that custody can switch if a kid is in danger of getting killed.
	Yeah. So that wasn't enough.
	You almost dying, almost being murdered, well that wasn't enough for him to fight your mom.
	God. That's
	true. I never got that apology.
	Well, no with an acknowledgement.
	I don't want to talk about it.
	Well, you make the fucking choices.
	You talk about it.
	Your kids want to talk about something.
	You shut the fuck up and listen.
	Because they didn't have any choice.
	Yes. Yes.
	Yes. Thank you.
	And it's tough to have a strong conscience
	provoke the conscience of your father.
	Because what you're doing is, and I understand this and I really sympathize with that, it's
	criticism, but what you're doing is placating your father for fear that he will abandon you or reject you if you're honest with him.
	So you still live under threat.
	Thank you.
	You know, I mean...
	Good parenting is, like you say to your kid, you can say anything to me.
	Nothing can threaten the bond.
	You can say absolutely anything to me.
	Have any criticism, any condemnation, anything.
	The bond is unbreakable.
	Yeah, I did get the sense.
	I tried to bring it up before that things would not go well if I kept trying to bring it up.
	Sure. That he would choose to, well, plus he walked out on your mom.
	Who he voluntarily chose and was having sex with.
	Right? I mean, he doesn't get those positive reinforcement vibes from you.
	So, why wouldn't he?
	I mean, this is when you walk out on a spouse, you leave the kids with abandonment issues, of course.
	Because they've been abandoned.
	And your father is like, man, I can't fucking live with this chick.
	But you at three, good luck, kid.
	Oh, and I'm never going to talk about it later.
	I couldn't stand her.
	I had to flee at the age of 30, or 35, or whatever it was.
	But you, at the age of three, yeah, you'll be fine.
	Oh, and if you ever bring up any criticisms of my choices or my actions that resulted in, as you say, a near-death experience called childhood, I will whine and burst into tears and feel myself so full of self-pity that you end up comforting me.
	Because I'm a selfish man.
	Or call me oversensitive.
	Oh, did he call you oversensitive?
	Yeah. That's news to me.
	In regards to this, because, I mean, I've been...
	So he insulted you for being upset about nearly being killed as a child.
	And other things, of course, right?
	So you're oversensitive for facing near-death experiences, but him bursting into tears and not wanting to talk about stuff, that's not being oversensitive.
	So you're supposed to live with near-death experiences and not complain, but if you bring up those issues with your father, then he is not oversensitive by bursting into tears and refusing to talk about it.
	Thank you.
	That's like saying that somebody complaining about a massive arm wound is...
	Oversensitive, and then the guy who faints when seeing the wound is totally fine.
	That's rational and appropriate.
	Understood. So you still live under threat of abandonment.
	Okay, do you want to try roleplay so I can meet the stat of yours?
	I'm willing to give a shot.
	I don't know how good I'll be.
	Yes, and I'll be you, right?
	Dad, my gosh, do we ever need to talk, man?
	My life is a mess.
	I got no friends, I got no girl, and I think a lot of it, I mean, obviously some of it's my choices, and I get that, but some of it has to do with Mom's choices, but I haven't talked to her in a decade, and I still have these problems, right?
	So, I have to at least put Mom aside for the bit and talk to you.
	Like, so, you know, get ready, this is going to be a challenge, but, you know, you're a big, strong man, you can handle it.
	So, yeah, we need to talk about my childhood.
	It was really bad.
	I mean, you know I was almost killed, right?
	My mom was incredibly selfish and she strangely attacked me in the shower with socks and was just completely bizarre and aggressive and threatened me with abandonment.
	Whenever I had an issue, she'd just walk away and I basically had to give up my entire identity.
	And, you know, I can't help but think that you couldn't stand her, and then you abandoned me to deal with her.
	Like, so, like, I got some relations with you, Dad.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	If you want to go down this road again, I mean, we could do it.
	I'm happy to do that, but, you know, I didn't know how bad she was.
	I mean, she always treated you...
	You left!
	What are you talking about?
	Don't lie to me, Dad.
	You didn't know how bad she was.
	You left.
	You left three children with her.
	I always saw her treating you well.
	Always. Well, I think that's just a lie.
	Are you saying that this incredibly toxic and violent woman was just also a wonderful mother with no problems whatsoever?
	Do you think that that exists in the same personality?
	I mean, it was different with you.
	The way she treated your two older brothers and you, it was night and day.
	Okay, so you understand because you're a man and you're not retarded.
	Right? You understand that if my mother treats me well and my brothers badly, my brothers are going to take it out on me, so I was still being treated like shit.
	Like, you understand that, right?
	It's not complicated.
	And I told you about the violence I was experiencing at the hands of my brother.
	Daily. Beating.
	Attacks. Near murder.
	What the fuck did you do about any of it?
	We tried to get him help, and I fought so hard in the legal system, and that's one of my biggest regrets, is not getting my brother out of that.
	No, no, no, dad, don't fucking gaslight me, man.
	Don't do it.
	Don't do it, man.
	I'm telling you, do not gaslight me.
	You did not fight in the legal system for me.
	You fought in the legal system to get married.
	fought in the legal system.
	You fought in the legal system to get married.
	You fought because your girlfriend wanted to get married and you couldn't because you were still married to Ma.
	So you fought for your girlfriend and for your loins, but not for me.
	Because if you'd wanted to fight for me, you'd have fought for custody based upon the fact that, I don't know, I was nearly killed under her care?
	I didn't know about that.
	Is this really where you want to go?
	Like just claiming passive ignorance?
	Let me ask you this, Dad.
	Do you think it's your job to know these things?
	When you have kids, do you think it's your job to know how they're doing?
	Yeah. Right.
	So did you inquire of me on a regular basis how I was doing?
	Whether I was happy, whether I was protected, whether I was taken care of?
	Like, you say, well, I never saw your mother treat you badly, but then you also say she fooled me for years.
	You can't have it both ways.
	You can't claim to be a victim because mom's such a cunning manipulator and then say, well, I never saw her treat you badly.
	Because you know she's a cunning manipulator, so you know that what she shows you isn't what is.
	You've made that case for years.
	If she's a cunning manipulator, you have to ask me directly because she could be covering up the abuse.
	In the same way you claim that she covered up her dysfunctional personality to the point where you got fooled.
	So you knew for years and years and years that she was a cunning manipulator who could pull the wool over people's eyes and then you say, well, I never saw her treat you badly.
	I mean, you can't have it both ways.
	I think he would do whatever he can to leave the situation, leave the talk at that point.
	Okay, then I would say, Dad, if you leave, you're not coming back.
	If you leave this conversation, I'm going to do with you what I did to Mom.
	It's not a threat.
	I'm just telling you consequences.
	I need to have this conversation.
	You need to step up and parent me.
	I don't care if it's uncomfortable for you.
	You know, it was uncomfortable for me being stuck with a toxic, malignant narcissist and being almost killed in my childhood.
	That was tough for me.
	And if I can deal with that shit, you can deal with some tough words.
	So sit your ass back down and we'll talk.
	I mean, you're already an adult, son.
	I don't know what to tell you.
	What parenting can I give you now?
	I wasn't a good father back then, but what do you want me to do about it now?
	I can't change the fact.
	Why even bring it up?
	There's nothing that can be done about it.
	Okay, so you need to listen.
	And you need to not insult me.
	Because I'm telling you, I'm feeling pretty raw and pretty pissed off.
	And if you insult me...
	Things would go very badly indeed between us.
	I'm telling you that right now.
	So, is there anything in what I've said that indicates I want you to have a magical time machine and change the past?
	I mean, what else could you have?
	Yes or no?
	You need to listen.
	Is there anything in what I've said that has the demand, explicit or implicit, that you have a magical time machine and go back and change the past?
	Well, if you want to get nitpicky, yeah.
	Is there anything in what I have said that indicates that I want you to have a magical time machine and change the past?
	No. Okay, thank you.
	So don't insult my intelligence.
	Do you think that I'm under the delusion that the past can be changed?
	No, but then why are you even bringing this up?
	Hang on, hang on.
	So if I'm not under the delusion that time can be changed, that the past can be changed, why would you pompously inform me that the past cannot be changed?
	But I'm perfectly aware that the past cannot be changed, and it has nothing to do with what I'm asking or talking about.
	Well then, I don't know why you're bringing this up, son.
	I mean, are you doing something that your cruel, sadistic mother would do?
	To me?
	Wait, sorry.
	I thought mom was a Perfect mom who treated me well.
	Now she's a cruel, sadistic mother.
	I'm a little confused.
	I mean, that's who I've learned she is.
	Okay, so then, if you know that she's cruel and sadistic, why would you gaslight me and say that she was a wonderful mother to me?
	That's what I believed at the time.
	Oh, so right now, you have changed your mind completely.
	And thought that I was under the care and control of a wonderful mother, and now you found out that she's cruel and sadistic.
	I mean, when you told me, when you came to live with me, that's the first I've heard about it.
	Right, which is almost 10 years ago, right?
	Yes. No, more than 10 years.
	No, almost 10 years ago.
	Okay. So then, once you found out that she was a cruel and sadistic mother like 10 years ago, I didn't say that.
	You did.
	You said you never saw her treating me badly in any way.
	Yes, and that's what I believed when you were growing up.
	That's all I ever saw.
	She treated you as a golden child.
	You were very well taken.
	You were always cared for.
	You always had food.
	She provided for you.
	Okay. Did you get married to her knowing that she was this cruel and sadistic?
	you.
	I didn't know she was going to be like that.
	No, no.
	Did you get married to her knowing that she was cruel and sadistic or did she fool you to some degree?
	I mean, she must have fooled me.
	What do you mean must have?
	You were there.
	Did she fool you, or did you know she was this cruel when you married her and gave her three children?
	I mean, she fooled me.
	I mean, looking back, I saw one time where she slipped up, but I mean, she was good for so many years.
	I mean...
	Okay, so she's able to...
	And also, that was something where you were aware that she was going to yell at someone.
	This is the person who was misusing the equipment.
	And while I'm sure her reaction was exaggerated, it is also the case that there was some justification in her upset, right?
	Yes. So for almost half a decade, so for many, many years, she was able to hide her negative behavior from you, right?
	Yes. So you know that she's very good at hiding negative behavior, and so then when you say to me, well, I never saw her behave negatively, you'd know that that was a lie, right?
	That you would have no reason to trust that in her because she's very good at camouflaging, right?
	So if someone is very good at camouflaging and hiding their bad behavior, and that person is then in charge of your three children, you don't rely on your fucking eyes.
	You ask the kids, Because you know she's a liar and a manipulator who can hide bad behavior for years, and so you check in with your kids to find that out, right?
	To find out if she's hiding bad behavior, which you already know she can do for years.
	But you didn't.
	I had to finally tell you when I was six months shy of being a full-ass adult.
	You never once asked me, Hey, I know that my mother can fake being really a good person, so how are things going behind closed doors?
	You just abandoned me and ran.
	You couldn't handle her as an adult, but I was supposed to handle her at three.
	You knew she was a predatory, cruel liar.
	And then you give me this mealy-mouthed bullshit about how you never saw her do anything bad, which is exactly what you told me about how she was for years before you married her, with the exception of that one instance.
	See, none of it makes sense.
	At all.
	And you're just lying to me.
	Maybe you're lying to yourself, I don't know.
	But I'm really sick and tired of these lies.
	I have no idea what he would say at this point.
	You need to own up that you saved yourself and abandoned your children.
	You need to own up that you specifically did not ask me how Mom was treating me because you didn't want to get the answer.
	You need to own up that you only fought Mom in order to please your girlfriend who wanted to get married not to save your children you abandoned to a narcissist.
	This is your life.
	These are the choices you made.
	And if you bullshit me about this anymore, we're done.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I think he's already out of the conversation by that point.
	Okay, then I would not see him again.
	Personally, I can't tell you what to do.
	But if somebody's going to be such a weasel about decisions that he made that were so destructive to his children, well, I mean, you can't have...
	It's really tough to have someone like that in your life, because they keep good people at bay.
	Because they're saying, I mean, imagine.
	What's your favorite female name?
	Let's go Ashley.
	Ashley. That's a nice name.
	Okay. So, let's say that you beat Ashley and then Ashley meets your father and knows that he abandoned his children to, as you point out, a malignant narcissist who was sadistic and tortured them and you almost got killed under her care.
	And your father is what?
	Is he chatty?
	Jovial? Fun?
	Yeah, he can be welcoming, yeah.
	So, I mean, he's pretty well camouflaged himself, right?
	The guy's carrying around nuclear guilt the size of a hot bomb at Hiroshima, and yet he's just chatty, because you participate, and I understand why you participate in this delusion that he's just a good guy.
	A delusion's a good word for it.
	Some mistakes were made, but, you know, everyone seems okay, right?
	So a quality woman is going to sense that about your dad immediately.
	And she's going to see the disparity between what your dad subjected you to and he did.
	Your father could afford to save you and your brothers at any time.
	At any time.
	But he didn't.
	Now, maybe he didn't have any fight in him.
	We could give him some spineless forgiveness to some degree.
	But when it turned out that his girlfriend wanted to get married, well, looky-la!
	Look at all the fight he has in him!
	Just so he can have sex, not that his children can be protected.
	Steph, I've never made that connection until now.
	So I always thought it was kind of, oh, sometimes he was fighting, sometimes he's not, and there's no good causality.
	No, he just didn't fight for you.
	So you are not part of the equation of his life.
	You're going to understand that.
	You were not part of the equation of his life.
	You see, if he talks to you and takes responsibility, then you gain great relief.
	Right? Let's say that there's some dad, right?
	And the dad accidentally kills the family pet, right?
	But then he says that his daughter is to blame.
	Right? Now, she's going to suffer, right?
	She's going to feel terrible and guilty and bad, right?
	But she won't be mad at him, right?
	No. And she will feel bad and not be mad at him.
	Now, if then at some point in the future he confesses and says, I killed the family pet and I blamed you, she will gain relief from being mad at herself or feeling bad about her role in killing the family pet, right?
	Yeah. So when he takes ownership for what he did, he lifts a burden from her shoulders.
	you.
	So, there's really only three possibilities.
	Either your father is worse than your mother, he's the same as your mother, or he's better than your mother.
	Okay. If he's worse than your mother, then it makes no sense to have him in your life and not have your mother in your life, right?
	True. If he's the same as your mother, same, right?
	If he's better than your mother, then he should focus on doing what's best for you, regardless of his own level of discomfort, right?
	Because your mother did what pleased her at your expense.
	She's angry at you.
	She just whips you with socks in the shower.
	She doesn't want to talk about something.
	She just walks away, leaving you insecure and frightened.
	Rationally so, right?
	So your mother does what she prefers, no matter how much it screws you up.
	Does what makes her feel better in the moment, regardless of what screws you up, right?
	Now, your father, if he's better than your mother, shouldn't do that.
	At least as much, right?
	He should choose what's best for you over discomfort to himself.
	Maybe he's in that middle ground.
	Where he's not doing that, but he's still better than my mother.
	I mean, that's been my experience of him thus far.
	Okay, I only care about putting your kid's interests first.
	I don't care about anything else.
	I mean, it's like saying he's better than my mother because he taught me more about programming.
	I only care about putting your needs first.
	Because he's a father, right?
	That's the job.
	You put what's best for your kids ahead of your own interests.
	If you don't want to do that, just don't become a dad.
	It's pretty simple, right?
	And he chose to become, well, you can even say if the first one was a quasi-accident, he still chose twice more to become a father, right?
	That is true, yeah.
	And he chose to keep my first brother as well.
	Right, right, right.
	So, I only care about this.
	Now, if he's better than your mother, then there should have been times over the course of your life when he did that which was emotionally difficult for himself.
	But would be better for you.
	And I'm happy to hear of instances where he's done that.
	Where he's done what was emotionally difficult for him because it seems to me that 10 years ago, first of all, he should have constantly checked in with you about how you're doing.
	Can you imagine hiring a babysitter with no references and never inquiring about your children as to whether they like or don't like the babysitter?
	I cannot for my own children.
	Imaginary children?
	No. It's incomprehensible, right?
	Can you imagine hiring a tutor who came with no references and showed red flags and never asking your children how they experienced the tutor?
	Is he good?
	Is he bad?
	Is he helpful?
	Is he not?
	I can't.
	Right. You ask your children how they're doing.
	Because you're not an asshole.
	And you're not selfish.
	Now, narcissistic, again, I'm just using this term in an amateur fashion.
	I'm certainly not competent to diagnose anyone, right?
	But a narcissist will only care how he or she feels, and it doesn't matter, it doesn't even register really, whether their own self-protection costs other people.
	Yeah. So, your father, for 10 years, has known a 0.1% of how much you suffered under your mother.
	And has he ever brought the topic up knowing that that would give you relief?
	Oh, of his own will?
	No, never.
	Right. So he would rather you continue to suffer and fail in your relationships and be unhappy, and maybe even if it's related to the CFS, he would rather that all happen rather than do something uncomfortable for himself.
	God, that's hard to imagine, but that is what's...
	Happened. Now, those are the facts, right?
	Yeah. Which means he wasn't fooled by your mother.
	He's the same as your mother.
	you.
	It manifests in different ways, but the principle is the same.
	Thank you.
	I'm a bit thrown for a whirl here trying to comprehend all this.
	Thank you.
	I mean, yeah, so my daughter the other day, it doesn't really matter the details, but I thought, have you ever had this thing where you think you're joking, but the other person is serious, and then you end up coming across as really insensitive?
	Yes. Yeah.
	So, my daughter the other day, I thought we were joking.
	It turns out she was serious, and then she brought up that it was upsetting to her, and it bothered her.
	Now, was that fun for me?
	No. No, of course not.
	I can't imagine it.
	So what did I say?
	Tell me more?
	Yeah, I'm really sorry.
	I certainly don't want you to have that experience, and if I misjudge the situation, which is certainly possible, tell me more, right?
	Yeah. My father has not done that.
	He's only given a little bit as to the story of this when I just pushed him.
	I mean, it felt like as hard as I could, but obviously I didn't go to the full extent we had in the roleplay.
	Right, and I mean, that would be a tough thing to do, right?
	I could be all kinds of tough in the roleplay because it ain't my dad and it's just made up, right?
	So don't imagine that I would be that tough in real life.
	But my own father, I mean, to his credit, right?
	I mean, he did actually tell me about all his mental health struggles and about how depressed he was when I went to visit him when I was 16, and that's why he was not responsive to me.
	And that was good.
	That was good.
	Now, it would have been better if he'd actually asked me about my experience at all, ever, which he didn't do.
	But at least he took that burden from me.
	Of being uninteresting as a young man, or as a child, because my father didn't really pay attention to me, finding out that he was catastrophically depressed gave me some relief and release.
	Now, again, it would have been even better if he'd actually at some point over the 53 years that he knew me actually ask me about anything to do with me, or at least respond when I told him my experiences.
	In any curious way.
	He never did that, but at least he did take one burden off me.
	Right. Yeah.
	Your father, it sounds like, hasn't even done that.
	No. None of it hangs together.
	Like when he says, oh, your mother is incredibly good at camouflaging her own corruption.
	Well, I never saw anything!
	That's literally like someone saying, It's like a guide in the Serengeti saying to me that there are invisible lions.
	And then when I get attacked, he says, well, I never saw a lion.
	It's like, you told me they were invisible.
	And then you claim to not be able to see them?
	That's insane.
	Yeah, and there's no way around that, because he already knew what was happening with my brothers, and he knew at that point...
	The conflict and all that?
	Because for the longest time in my childhood, he focused on my middle brother.
	So he knew...
	Gosh. Well, I mean, that's...
	Again, that's a challenging one because of the...
	What was it?
	Autism Asperger's?
	Right? So, I mean, that is a challenging one because...
	There may be a non-moral biological substrata to that, right?
	Like if your kid gets a brain tumor and it's really aggressive, it's not because of bad parenting.
	Right, but bad parenting would make it all the much worse.
	Well, I think so.
	I think so.
	And it is incumbent upon the parents to get the violent child out of the environment if the violent child cannot be sorted out.
	I mean, did your family ever go?
	I mean, divorced couples can go to family counseling if there's problems with the children.
	There are family counselors who will specialize in how to co-parent after divorce for the best interests of the children.
	Did your parents ever consult any experts on how to deal with a very violent child in the house who was, you know, potentially murdering the other kids?
	Not to my knowledge.
	I mean, they went to doctors, I think, independently for...
	Yeah, I mean,
	that's a whole complex web of biology and environment and abuse and genes, and so I can't whack myself through that thicket in any way.
	In any rational way, but whether or not it was environmental or genetic, or as you say, maybe a combination, or is this possible?
	Sorry, I won't put words in your mouth.
	Or a combination of the two doesn't fundamentally matter.
	Right, so if you have a dog that bites the children, and you say, well, it's a nice dog, it's treated well, it just has rabies, does it matter?
	No, it doesn't.
	He should have got me out of there.
	Yeah. You cannot have children subjected to daily violence in that fashion.
	It's just absolutely unacceptable.
	And there's no excuse for it.
	Both your parents knew that he was violent.
	And that they couldn't fix it.
	Yeah, and at one point, this weekend visitation had to be split because we were fighting, my brother and I were fighting, my middle brother and I were fighting during my father's time.
	So then we started seeing one day...
	Oh, so your brother would see the violence.
	Sorry, your father would see the violence between you and your brother when you were visiting him.
	Yes, and eventually it got solved by splitting us up, which is just masking.
	Well, it didn't get solved.
	It's just that they were only interested in diminishing the symptoms insofar as it affected them, rather than insofar as it affected you.
	Yeah. So I would submit that through no fault of your own, and with great sympathy for this, You have no idea what it means to be loved and cared for.
	And that's the price of being raised by selfish parents.
	They don't put their own interests aside.
	You know, when your father was full of lust, he banged your mom because it felt good, and then when she was unpleasant, he left because it felt bad.
	Right? Not confronting her about the child abuse would feel bad, but then when his girlfriend was nagging him, He felt bad about that, so then he fought your mom.
	I mean, selfish people just bounce off dopamine.
	It's just punishment and reward.
	It's never a principle and it's certainly never empathy.
	Right, yeah.
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Yeah. Thank you.
	So, I mean, with great sympathy, how can you have a relationship when you don't even know that you were unloved?
	I mean, it's a hard one.
	How do you know what whatever chocolate mousse tastes like if you've never had it?
	Well, the problem is if you're eating a pile of shit thinking it's chocolate mousse, you don't ever get to the chocolate mousse.
	That's my point.
	Is that you think you have a relationship and you think that you're cared for, but if you're cared for, then you should be able to have difficult conversations and the other person cares about you enough to have them and even to initiate them.
	It's your father's job to initiate these conversations.
	And looking at the wreckage of his children's lives, He should be initiating this conversation with all of you.
	Yeah. What happened?
	How bad was it?
	Tell me everything.
	And then take complete ownership for that.
	Because he chose your mother to be the mother of his children.
	And then he chose to leave those children with that woman.
	That's 100% on him.
	You say, oh, well, my mother too.
	Yeah, but we know your mother.
	You've already dealt to a large degree with your mother, right?
	But your father, as I've always talked about, is the parent who gets away.
	Yeah. And you know that he's selfish, which is why you haven't talked to him really over the last 10 years about any of this in any persistent detail.
	Because selfish people, if you cause them discomfort, they'll just completely drop you.
	Because they don't have a connection with you.
	They only have a connection with their own comfort and preferences.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I lost my track of thought, but I kind of...
	Makes sense that I would understand that that's the situation.
	I've kind of been blaming myself that I haven't pushed harder to talk to him about it.
	Well, you have that responsibility.
	I'm not going to let you off the hook for that.
	Because people always say, I criticize myself so much, and it's like, maybe that's not totally wrong.
	You've known about the need for this conversation.
	And the fact that you can't confront your father on his fairly obvious lies, and I say only obvious from the outside because it's easier from the outside, right?
	So, the fact that you can't confront your father on his obvious lies is why you can't be protected against a liar like the two-month girl or the two-month woman who said no sex for 30 days or no sex for 90 days or 120 days.
	Oh, it's been three days, let's do it.
	Right? So because she didn't have any principles, you couldn't really be alarmed by that and you bonded with her because you're already bonded by someone who doesn't have any principles with your father.
	So you have a fake bond with your father and then you end up with a fake bond who's a liar, in my view, and a manipulator.
	And then you end up bonded with this woman who's a liar and a manipulator and then you feel strangely attached to her.
	It's like, well, yeah, that's your template.
	And then you feel strangely attached to someone who's not trustworthy, like your father.
	And then you're terrified of rejection from this woman which made no sense because you just met her and she had red flags all over the place so why were you so terrified of rejection from this woman you just met who was a liar and a manipulator because your life is run by your fear of rejection by your father which is why you won't be honest with him.
	And then the price of not being honest with your father is being played by someone similar to your father like this woman which is why she had no problems with your father because like recognizes like.
	Predators recognize predators.
	Liars recognize...
	Oh, you're not going to give me any trouble.
	Yeah, we're the same.
	She's actually still in the orbit of the family.
	We're friends with some of us.
	Wow. And the fact that she is a female, heard about your childhood, and then violated boundaries that you'd set up, means that she was exploiting your wounds, not helping you with them.
	Because you said, I don't want to have sex before marriage, and she's like, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it.
	You're tall.
	Yeah, and I told her about my previous relationship, which I think lasted as long as it did, because I had...
	Okay, so you may not want to overly...
	You may not want to overly talk about your previous relationship with new women.
	Yes. Yeah, I had some dating.
	Some of it went well, some of it went badly.
	I've learned a lot.
	I'm in therapy and I'm eager to move forward.
	But please, Scott, don't start unpacking old relationships with new dates.
	Got it.
	So, I mean, obviously I can't tell you what to do, but and I'm not sure you'd listen anyway, because I've sort of told people what to do over the call-in shows, or at least I've given them some pointers on things that might be helpful.
	And... You don't want to do that stuff, right?
	So you are still run by a fear of rejection from your father, and I sympathize with that.
	This is not any kind of negative.
	It's no blame.
	I really, really understand that.
	And listen, you're further ahead at your age than I was at your age, right?
	So the fact that I got 31 years on you is pretty significant, right?
	So it's not anything to make you feel bad or deficient or anything like that, but you have avoided being honest with your father.
	I think, in general, if it's safe, thou shalt not bear false witness, even if you're not religious, is a pretty good rule to live by, right?
	Yeah, I agree with that one, although I don't practice it.
	Well, you know, but it's tough, right?
	So, you can't be closer to people than your least close relationship in principle.
	So, if you have a relationship based upon silence, lying, conformity, and avoidance, then you really can't get close to any woman.
	Because the moment you start getting close to any woman, Who's capable of being really close to you and caring for you, the first thing she's going to see is that your father doesn't really care for you.
	Because if he did, he would do that which was uncomfortable, but would benefit you.
	And why would she want to be a part of that?
	Well, she doesn't.
	And she knows that you're going to be seesawing back and forth between intimacy and dissociation.
	How often are you in contact with your father these days?
	Like, let's say, the last year?
	Yeah, regular.
	And what is regular?
	Once a week, visiting.
	Right. But yours is 25% of your income comes from the company he works with, right?
	Yeah. So I assume you're in contact, at least to some degree, for work issues.
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah. So how often do you talk to your father?
	Or communicate with him, or text with him, or have interactions with him?
	Yeah. I mean, it varies, but say twice per week?
	Really? So you visit once a week and you're only in contact with him for business matters, texting, anything, once a week?
	It depends.
	It can be more, but recently it's rather sporadic.
	Okay, what is it typically, not recently?
	If recently is a deviation from the norm, what's the norm?
	I'm having trouble answering this.
	Thank you.
	I mean, there are days when we work, the projects aren't consistent, so there's periods where we talk like every day for the whole working day, but then there's times where we don't talk for a month or two.
	Huh. So you don't even visit?
	That is also sporadic, yeah.
	Right. Okay.
	Okay, so you're not bonded.
	Because if you were bonded, you wouldn't go a couple of months without talking.
	Yeah, I mean, there's some bond, but it's not a healthy bond.
	I do trust him enough to fall back on him sometimes, but I know that's not a good thing to do.
	Okay. Well, yeah, so I would say, I mean, the advice you've heard a million times over the call-in shows is, if you're going to have a relationship, be honest.
	And if the relationship can't survive your honesty, then it was not a relationship.
	You know, people always, I remember back in the day, people would get mad at me for this, right?
	Like, well, I tried talking to my dad and it just blew up.
	And it's like, hey, but don't blame me.
	If you're telling me this bridge...
	If this little footpath over the stream, you're saying it could totally bear your weight, I'm like, okay, then walk on it.
	And if you walk in it and collapse, don't blame me.
	Yeah, and you can't even blame the whatever car you drive across it to test the bridge.
	No, I'm just walking.
	That's what the bridge is made for.
	Just walking and it's a little stream, right?
	It's just a little footbridge, right?
	I mean, it could carry three times my weight.
	I remember at the CN Tower, they had this glass floor.
	It could take six hippos, right?
	or four Americans.
	So if you walk on this little footbridge that you say is totally stable and sturdy, and then it collapses, and then people get mad at me like, I broke the bridge.
	I'm like, no, I just accepted what you said.
	If you have a relationship with your father, you should be able to tell him the truth.
	If you tell him the truth, and that results in your father not wanting to talk to you, you never had a relationship with your father, you just had frightened conformity and emptiness at the cost of your entire future.
	Because it's not about that.
	Mm-hmm.
	You still have, you're a young, well, youngish man, and you have a future, and to sacrifice your future for the sake of your father's shitty choices 35 years ago makes no sense.
	They're his bad choices, they don't have to be your bad choices.
	And for me, everything that kept me from being close to people was absolutely expendable.
	And anybody who treated me with disrespect, Could never be around my wife because I never ever want my wife to see people treating me with disrespect.
	And I also never want my wife or then girlfriend to see me lying to people and conforming to people and being frightened of people.
	That's gross.
	And it's supremely unattractive because a woman needs you to be strong, needs you to provide and to protect.
	And if you're going over and white-faced lying and cowing in a sense before your father, a woman will not find you very attractive.
	I mean, how could she?
	You're supposed to be a provider and a protector, and if you are pissing your pants because your elderly father might disapprove of you, that's nothing a woman can find sexy.
	I'm sorry, we can mutter about this biology, but it doesn't really matter.
	It's not going to change.
	And so, if your father, if you lie by omission and avoid telling the truth to your father, Then your girlfriend, who will know about your past, will know that this is the guy, this is the person who did you the most harm,
	in a way.
	Because he left and didn't take you.
	And he fought, but not for you, but for some woman who's no longer in his life.
	And certainly, of your current relationships, because you're not in touch with your mother, of your current relationships, your father is the person who did you by far the most harm, and continues to do you the most harm by not raising...
	The issue of your childhood because of his own bad conscience, thus causing you to spiral into negativity.
	So your girlfriend knows that this is the guy who did you the most harm that you're in contact with and what does she consistently see?
	You never saying anything to him about anything.
	That's a slave.
	That's low status.
	That's spineless.
	And again, I'm not saying you're a coward.
	I understand the motivations and I sympathize with them.
	I really do.
	But... However much I might sympathize with you, and I do, for what happened to you as a child, the fact remains, a girlfriend will get an intergalactic ick from watching you cuck to your dad.
	And not tell the truth, because you're scared.
	I've been aware of that, yeah.
	You've been aware of that?
	Then why didn't you tell the truth on the camping trip?
	You don't get any points for being aware of shit you don't do.
	In fact, that's negative points.
	I know the perfect diet for me, I'm just not doing it.
	That's even worse than not knowing the perfect diet for you.
	I might be dense right now, but I don't know what truth you're referring to for the camping trip that I would share.
	Oh, Dad, my childhood sucked and you were largely to blame.
	Let's talk about it.
	Dad, you're lying to me about Mom and you're refusing to take responsibility and that's costing me.
	You selfish jerk.
	You're still sacrificing your children for the sake of avoiding your own conscience.
	I won't do it.
	I won't participate in this nonsense.
	Let's have an honest conversation, man to man, about the bad shit you did.
	I mean, did your father ever criticize you for getting bad grades or not doing the right thing as a kid or displeasing him or doing something quote wrong?
	Oh yeah, yeah.
	Oh yeah, so he lectured you when you were three and five and ten and...
	What, you can't say anything to him about abandoning you to a narcissist and a near murder from your sibling?
	He's a big tough guy who can nag and lecture and correct and in a sense bully a five-year-old, but he can't hear any actual criticisms of his own choices?
	That's shitty, man.
	That's so cowardly.
	Well, you're five, so I'm going to lecture you on all of your misdeeds and all the things you've done wrong.
	Dad, you did some things wrong when I was a kid.
	Oh, how dare you!
	I mean, it's pathetic, man.
	It's so weak.
	It's a bully.
	Wow. When you say it's so clear, but man...
	You know, I always hated this shit when I was a kid.
	Right? Like, you get some kid who would trash talk you and you'd trash talk him back and he'd run away crying or whatever, right?
	It's like, man...
	I always hate this shit.
	Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
	Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
	Or how do you like a taste of your own medicine?
	So your father nagged and corrected and in a sense bullied you when you were a kid and now because you were doing the wrong things, you see, you didn't study for that spelling bee, kid.
	It's really important you study for that spelling bee.
	You didn't get a high enough mark in math, kid.
	It's really important that you get a high mark in math.
	Oh, really?
	Is it important that you don't leave your kids with a sociopath or whatever the hell your mother is?
	Is it really important that your children not get beaten up daily and almost murdered?
	Is that maybe slightly more fucking important than a spelling test or a math quiz?
	Or a mark when you're in grade four?
	But no, don't dish it out, man.
	If you want to correct kids, great, no problem.
	Hey, fantastic.
	Correct kids, but then don't be surprised and don't cry foul when your kids grow up and correct you.
	you.
	So, yeah, it's gross to see that.
	And you just, you will not be attractive to a quality woman while being bullied, cowed, and dominated by your father to the point where you can't even tell the truth about essential things.
	Yeah, I hear you.
	Man, for whatever reason, I'm kind of feeling defeated, but also I kind of know there is no reason to, because I can now see the situation clearly.
	No, I'll just stop here, because we've talked for a long time, but you're feeling defeated because your father doesn't want you to have this conversation with him, obviously, right?
	Oh yeah, very much so.
	So you're just feeling defeated as a way that...
	Your father will program you to not have this conversation with him.
	And you don't have to have this conversation with him at all.
	I mean, it's free will.
	My choice.
	Yeah, it's your choice.
	But if you don't have this conversation with him, don't pretend you have a relationship.
	That's all.
	All right.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	I will certainly do.
	I appreciate your time today, and you did a great job with the conversation.
	And again, massive sympathies for what you experienced as a child.
	It was absolutely wrong.
	Absolutely not your fault.
	And you can still have a great life moving forward.
	Thank you, Steph, so much for taking my call and being so kind and generous to me.
	All the best, brother.
	Keep me posted and stay in touch, alright?
	Alright. All the best.

▲