April 2, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:52:58
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| Time | Text |
|---|---|
| Hi, Steph. | |
| Hey, how's it going? | |
| Oh, good. | |
| Sorry. A little out of breath. | |
| No, no problem at all. | |
| Hey, I was going to be walking. | |
| No, no, I'm, I'm, uh, I'm, uh, talking to Steph at this point, so I'm not too nervous about that. | |
| I was going to start, sorry, let me catch my breath. | |
| I was going to, um, walk and talk with you outside. | |
| Um, And then you said to read the preamble, so I ran back to the office so that I could... | |
| Oh, yeah. | |
| Now, do we have a hard stop of an hour and a half? | |
| Not necessarily, but I do have a client coming at 2.30, so... | |
| Okay, I mean, just in case. | |
| I mean, sometimes they go a little longer, but I just wanted to know because we can accelerate otherwise. | |
| So... I don't want to cause too much delay. | |
| I wasn't necessarily going to... | |
| Listen, don't worry about it. | |
| I can just read... | |
| I can read it afterwards, if you like. | |
| Right. Sure. | |
| It is the intro, so if it's complicated or it's going to waste time, so we should probably dive in. | |
| Perfect. Yeah, no, I have more than enough to talk about to keep things moving and grooving. | |
| But I'll try not to be too disorganized. | |
| So, right. | |
| Um, I don't know if you wanted to start with any questions or just give me the situation. | |
| Sure. Um, so basically, um, my, uh, my girlfriend and I, uh, broke up recently, um, about, uh, let's say, I guess probably two weeks now. | |
| Um, it was her decision. | |
| Uh, That being said, I was so on board with it that I really didn't fight it too much. | |
| Basically, I did send a reply text to her and saying, you know, I want to fight for us. | |
| But then later on, I was just kind of like, I don't even know why I said that, because I don't have the energy to do that. | |
| So anyway, and that would be fine if it was just me and her. | |
| I would be more than happy to call it quits. | |
| The problem, of course, as it always is, or almost always is, is that our children are involved. | |
| So that obviously complicates the breaking up. | |
| Since I sent in the request to you, we have talked more, me and her, and seem to have a plan for moving forward, which I am okay with. | |
| I guess I've I don't know if it's just I am okay with it or I've kind of gaslighted myself into being okay with it but um Not not so much as concerned as before, but I still have my worries about her in terms of her unreasonableness, | |
| I think the uh the meat and potatoes behind my request to you steph was Um, I I sort of find myself uh Doing a balancing act Or at least that's how it feels for me whereas, uh, | |
| you know on the one side I want to You know stand by what I believe in Uh and do you know everything that I think is right to raise our kids but then on the other hand there is You know To what extent should I do that considering she's unreasonable and if I try to Fight her on certain points, you know, for example, like where we're gonna end up living or where the kids are gonna end up living You know, education, those sorts of things. | |
| Especially in the modern world, you know, the family courts. | |
| I'm also, as you can probably imagine, the family courts are an uphill battle for a man. | |
| So that would be one thing, even if I did have the money for it, which I don't, and neither does she. | |
| And even if we did, I wouldn't want to see all that money go to lawyers. | |
| Who I actually work for a lawyer, but still I wouldn't want to see money go through lawyers and the court system if it go to my kids instead So basically I guess to summarize that To what extent should I you know fight for what's right You know based on what the cost is going to be because I I think it's going to be substantial. | |
| I could be wrong about that, and maybe you have some thoughts. | |
| Sorry, the cost of what? | |
| Mediation? The cost of coming to an agreement about child support and visitation and so on? | |
| Financial, but also time, obviously, but stress. | |
| It's going to be very stressful for both of us, and then therefore for the kids, of course. | |
| They'll be able to pick up on the stress, obviously. | |
| And just mental energy. | |
| You know, this woman puts on a good face, but I think when she really gets pushed against, you know, in terms of what she wants, I think there's no end to her animosity. | |
| I mean, we've had our ups and downs and breakups over the past few years. | |
| Okay, so sorry, because you're starting me at the end, I don't know about the beginning. | |
| How long have you been with her? | |
| You said you had breakups before. | |
| How old are your kids? | |
| Just a bit of backstory. | |
| Sure. I apologize. | |
| I know you're not readily familiar with my scenario. | |
| We met back when she was 17, I think, and I was 19, but didn't get together until she was 18 and I was a little bit older. | |
| So anyway, We just found each other online. | |
| For me, it was always sexual attraction. | |
| I knew nothing about virtue at the time. | |
| I knew nothing about finding the right woman. | |
| Sad to say that I think I was listening to you at the time, but none of the virtue stuff or relationship stuff, probably just political or the Truth About series. | |
| So I didn't get that knowledge from you and I did not get it from my parents. | |
| We've talked about them before, and yeah, that wasn't a good source of any information. | |
| Anyway, so we... | |
| Sorry, you and I have talked about your parents before, right? | |
| Yeah, the last time we talked about... | |
| my last call-in was about my parenting. | |
| I was getting upset with my kids, and you know, yes, obviously, inevitably about my parents, and basically... | |
| Sorry, how long ago was that? | |
| Last year. | |
| Got it. | |
| Okay, sorry, continue. | |
| Yes, but that's fine. | |
| I don't mind going over it again, of course. | |
| Obviously, you won't remember specifics, but... | |
| Anyway, so fast forward after we met online to a couple months, I guess after that So not a couple, uh, maybe six months. | |
| She got pregnant. | |
| Um Classic dupe on my part. | |
| I uh took her at face value when she told me that she couldn't get pregnant and stupidly, uh, you know called her bluff and uh, lo and behold as nature would have it she got pregnant and uh I don't know if you want me to just keep going step by step. | |
| Yeah, go ahead. | |
| Okay. So, yeah, I mean, she was pregnant for the usual nine months. | |
| And now in between that pregnancy, I'm going to be completely honest, so I'm just going to, you know, I don't care how I sound. | |
| I mean, I do, but anyway, I had cheated on her. | |
| And this will be a recurring pattern. | |
| But the cheating aspect Sorry, I was going to say it was just talking online, but I think there was an in-person element to it. | |
| I'm not trying to, uh, use euphemisms here. | |
| Um, I don't know if there was sex involved, but anyway, it was still cheating. | |
| So she broke up with me briefly. | |
| Got back together. | |
| You said you didn't, you cheated on her, but you didn't know if there was physical stuff involved? | |
| Well, looking back now, I can't remember if that instance, if I had actually done something. | |
| As far as she knew anyway, it was just stuff she found on my phone, basically, like communication with other women. | |
| But sorry, you don't remember if you had physical interactions with another woman? | |
| I can't, because this happened between me and her, like, a couple different times over the years. | |
| So in this instance, I can't remember if I had physically, you know, Cheated with someone else. | |
| I think maybe I had met somebody else at one point brought them back to the apartment And but we didn't have sex. | |
| We didn't even kiss or anything And then That was the first time We got back together of holidays and then the second time it was only maybe like a month and a half after the first breakup the second breakup She found out again on my phone. | |
| I've been talking to women Again, I think this was all just online flirting and stuff, maybe sending nude pictures. | |
| I don't believe at this point there was anything physical. | |
| She never caught me physically cheating on her with anyone, but I will admit that I have done it over the years. | |
| I just don't know if at that point... | |
| I'm drawing the distinction because I think there is a fair distinction between just Uh messaging someone and actually having sex with them I'm, not saying i'm a good person for doing either of those but you know, just just as that context is there. | |
| Okay. Got it um anyway, so Uh, so we broke up with that that that holiday season a number of years ago and this is before again Uh, the first child was born um Then I think we were separated Until right around right when the first child was expected. | |
| So maybe within the month got back together again Child was born a beautiful daughter and then a couple months after that broke up again for a similar reason And I know here at the beginning I sound like the asshole and I probably was I was the one that caused all these problems But you know I'll get to, you know, what I talked about in my preamble. | |
| So anyway, right, so broke up again at that point. | |
| So at this point my baby is two or three months old, maybe a little younger. | |
| And then at that point, so up until then we had been living in the same apartment, or if we were broken up maybe she would be staying somewhere else, or then we would trade off maybe, like some months I'd be staying there, She would be somewhere else and then maybe she would be staying there and I would be like living back my parents or something but then That year my first the first year of my daughter's life near the end of it near the holidays Or maybe it was early the next year after She | |
| ended up moving away out of town about an hour because she For financial reasons and I think she just for her own mental health. | |
| I guess she wanted to live with one of her half-sisters and Or stepsisters. | |
| So she went there and took my daughter with her. | |
| Obviously, I could have fought for her, so I don't... | |
| I shouldn't say, like, took her. | |
| I mean, I obviously acquiesced to some degree and let that happen. | |
| Sorry, I mean, you were driving her away, but it's constant cheating, right? | |
| Oh, yes. | |
| I would agree with that. | |
| Okay. Just checking, because you seem to be like, well, I should have fought for her. | |
| It's like, But she was leaving because you were cheating, right? | |
| Correct. Okay. | |
| Well, I don't I don't I mean, I don't necessarily know that's why she left. | |
| Like I said, I think it was for Financial reasons or maybe like I think maybe her mental health more than anything. | |
| So I guess if we're I don't want to split hair So so let's just say that that's probably Like like if I wasn't cheating she probably wouldn't left. | |
| So yes, it's probably my it's my fault. | |
| Let's just say that I'm fine with admitting that now I'm not Well, I mean, to be perfectly blunt, you were being kind of a scumbag with a new kid in the house, right? | |
| Oh, absolutely. | |
| I mean, uh, as long as we're on the same page regarding that, because the message is all about how crazy she is, right? | |
| Right. And, and I think, well, that's what I was saying earlier. | |
| Like, we'll, we'll get to that because I think what, what's, what's happened here is that I was, uh, I'll just say a piece of shit, um, in terms of my behavior. | |
| Uh, and to some degree still am when it comes to her. | |
| And we'll get to that, but, you know... | |
| Well, I mean, it seems likely that you didn't bond with your daughter as well as you should have, because the bond with the kid and the love for the mother is what keeps the man from straying, to some degree, right? | |
| Correct. Okay, so, sorry, she moves out, your daughter's like a year old at this point? | |
| No, I think she was probably... | |
| I mean, I'm not trying to be... | |
| Maybe she was like nine months. | |
| So getting close to a year, I suppose. | |
| And then I stayed at that same apartment. | |
| It doesn't necessarily matter where I stayed. | |
| It was the same city, let's just say. | |
| So we're about an hour away from each other. | |
| I did move back with my parents I think at some point and then I got my own place. | |
| But anyway, my interactions with my daughter and the mother were a couple times a week, I think. | |
| And then, of course, as we usually do, me and her, we got back together again at some point, a couple months later, so then it was like a long-distance relationship, technically, and it remained that way. | |
| When you guys get back together, do you do that in part because you've promised to stop cheating? | |
| I must have made some kind of statement like that. | |
| I don't imagine I wouldn't have. | |
| If that's why she left, then I assume she'd want that fixed. | |
| The kind of person that she is slash was she wouldn't have sat me down and said like listen so-and-so You have to promise me like she wouldn't do that. | |
| But I I probably I'm almost certainly would have said like No, I'm not gonna do it anymore. | |
| I Don't know if I gave her any reasons for it at the time. | |
| But yeah, I'm sure that that would have happened I would have made some kind of props. | |
| Got it Now the next breakup sorry there was a breakup in between So not in between but there was a breakup After that, so we, context, we were together at this point, but long distance. | |
| My daughter's over one years old at this point. | |
| We broke up because there was some kind of falling out we had and we both lost our temper. | |
| This was over a text message. | |
| It was always, it's always been that way. | |
| Never liked a breakup. | |
| Why people have conflicts over text is beyond me, but okay. | |
| Oh, well, not because I wanted to, but just because I kind of let it happen, I guess, because she didn't want to do it in person, and I was pretty emotionally volatile at the time, so I wouldn't have probably wanted to do it anyway in person myself. | |
| I'd probably be crying and yelling and stuff, so it worked out better that way, I think. | |
| But anyway, it's funny because I don't remember what this breakup was about, necessarily. | |
| I think it was just... | |
| it wasn't involving cheating. | |
| It was some kind of falling out. | |
| I don't remember now, but we were we were split up then from This is kind of the part in the whole storyline where I get a little foggy about it, but I think maybe it was up to a year perhaps that we were not together at that point afterwards Still doing the long-distance thing I mean just kind of business as usual. | |
| I would see the my daughter Not every once in a while, but a couple times a week. | |
| Maybe we weren't broken up for a year. | |
| Might have been only a couple months. | |
| I guess if I can fast forward a bit, because nothing really happened substantial. | |
| Sorry, that's wrong actually, because we had my second child. | |
| She came about when we were still long distance. | |
| And so you've got this highly unstable relationship. | |
| Yes. And you decide to have unprotected sex. | |
| Yeah, we can count on one hand. | |
| No, no, I don't care about how many times you did it. | |
| It's like saying, well, there were only one of six, one of six chambers when the guy was playing Russian Roulette. | |
| It's only one in six, right? | |
| Doesn't matter. | |
| So you had unprotected sex in this highly unstable relationship. | |
| No, no, sorry. | |
| I was, I was trying to say I can count on one hand the times I use a condom. | |
| So I was, Oh, sorry, so the other way. | |
| Okay, so you are... | |
| Sorry, my apologies. | |
| I guess I jumped the gun, and so did you. | |
| That's okay. | |
| Okay, so you have a lot of unprotected sex with this woman in a highly unstable relationship, and why do you do that? | |
| I'm trying to not give a canon answer, because I know you're going to say the whole, yes you do. | |
| So, what would have been the real reason I did that? | |
| I'll be honest, I think a part of it is a little fetishistic. | |
| Um, maybe 10%, 15%. | |
| Um, and then. | |
| So I don't know what fetishistic means in this context. | |
| Uh, okay. | |
| Uh, just, uh, I don't know if it is a fetish or, or that's just my way of looking at it, but having unprotected sex. | |
| Well, it's not a fetish on a raw dog. | |
| I mean, it feels better, right? | |
| I get that. | |
| But we're talking about five minutes of pleasure versus some kid having to spend 18 years in a chaotic couples environment. | |
| That's the part, like, that's the equation I don't quite follow. | |
| Just making a bad decision. | |
| Well, it's selfish, right? | |
| It would have to be. | |
| I mean, I don't know how... | |
| Yeah, I mean, it's selfish because you say, well, I want sexual pleasure for five minutes. | |
| And too bad if another kid gets born into this horrible situation. | |
| But I also feel like at the time, in some warped way, I wanted another child with her. | |
| Even that's selfish, because it's I want, I want, I want, not what's best for my kid. | |
| Right. No, no, I mean, yeah, I could go into more detail, but it would probably be... | |
| It's a longer term selfishness, but it's still selfish, right? | |
| Sure. Right. | |
| No, I'm not trying to sugarcoat my own involvement here, obviously. | |
| I do move up with her to this place, so that's an hour away again. | |
| So I moved out from where I was currently living to where she was, uh, when that, the newest child was a couple months old. | |
| then, oh, sorry. | |
| Thank you. | |
| I can't remember if I said that she got pregnant, or I might be skipping the whole pregnancy there. | |
| But I don't think anything really eventful happened those nine months. | |
| Like I said, until she was born, a couple months after the second child was born, then I finally moved in again with the woman. | |
| How old were you when your second child was born? | |
| Let's see, uh, six now. | |
| So 23, 23 around there. | |
| Got it. | |
| Okay. Um, right. | |
| So eventually we moved back in together. | |
| Um, uh, so at this point we have, of course, a toddler, I guess she would have been two or three and then a newborn. | |
| Um, Uh, we've moved from that place a couple months later to a different place, uh, maybe 20 minutes away. | |
| And then not long after my second child was born, the, uh, the third was conceived third and last. | |
| Um, and then, uh, kind of more of the same, um, until that child was born. | |
| I'm trying to think if there were any breakup periods in between there. | |
| And I can't think of any, I think there was a long stretch there where we weren't together. | |
| Um, and was she staying home with the kids? | |
| Yes. These were the years where she, well, uh, there was a brief stint of work from time to time, I think either cleaning houses or at subway, but, um, and it was never any kids when she was doing that. | |
| Right, so that would have been her sister. | |
| Okay. Well her not really biological sister, but I guess step whatever you wanna call it. | |
| And why did she get it up? | |
| What she probably would have told me and probably is the correct answer is that she didn't want to just stay home. | |
| She wanted to get back to work, socialize, that kind of thing. | |
| Okay. And then? | |
| Oh yeah, and then, so, context again, we were not living in that same place, but a different place, 20 minutes away. | |
| I was working full-time, she was staying home. | |
| Now, for full disclosure, I was cheating on her. | |
| Let's just say the whole time, because I can't remember specific dates. | |
| The whole time meaning, like, just the whole time you were together? | |
| There may have been like at the beginning of when we got back together each time I might have been like, you know on this time I'm gonna not do it and then Inevitably I would Honestly stuff it comes back to my dick. | |
| I just couldn't control myself. | |
| So I Mean, no, sorry Sure. | |
| Sorry. I mean you I was at home staring at you. | |
| You didn't cheat on her, right? | |
| So you could definitely control it. | |
| No, let's see. | |
| You can't control Penis can't. | |
| True. And of course you're cheating on the mother of your two or three children with women who are happy to cheat on you despite the fact that you have a wife and kids or a girlfriend and kids. | |
| One of them knew. | |
| I don't think I would have told. | |
| This was mostly online stuff. | |
| Again, there was no There might have been one or two physical times in that whole period, but most of the time it was always online. | |
| Masturbation fantasies, right? | |
| Exactly. That's a great way to put it. | |
| But one of them was kind of impersonal. | |
| I mean, we never had sex, but that was only because I didn't have the opportunity to. | |
| So that doesn't really count. | |
| So all of these women thought you were single? | |
| That one that I'm talking about just now, that one knew. | |
| And how many women did you, over the course of your relationship, from I guess 19 to now, how many women did you message back and forth with, or flirt with, or send nudes to, or whatever? | |
| Quite a few, Stefan. | |
| If we're going off of just all of the interactions, including strictly online, Snapchat, quite a few. | |
| Okay, meaning what? | |
| Yes, sorry, exactness. | |
| At least over a hundred, but likely a lot more. | |
| Okay, got it. | |
| So you're like a sex addict? | |
| That's a great way to put it. | |
| Yes. I mean, I'm not acknowledging you because I'm not a psychologist, but it would seem to me that that's it, right? | |
| I would say that that's probably actually empirically true because I did go through sex addiction counseling. | |
| I'll be it briefly. | |
| And I also went to, which this does exist if you didn't know, Sex Addicts Anonymous. | |
| Same structure as AA, but For obvious hookups. | |
| Yeah, for different reasons. | |
| Yeah, OK. | |
| Yeah. So, yeah, no, that's a that's a probably a sorry, not probably. | |
| That is a great way to put it. | |
| OK, so then. | |
| But. Let's see. | |
| So then from there, we moved to this place I'm still in where where I started, we both started out originally, so we moved back. | |
| And we're together for another six months or so after that. | |
| And keep in mind, at this point, we have three kids now. | |
| One of which is almost a toddler. | |
| One of them is just a baby. | |
| And then the other one is an older toddler. | |
| So then we break up again. | |
| This would have been maybe five years ago, maybe something like that. | |
| I think it was five or four or five. | |
| Jeez, I think it was right before COVID, actually. | |
| As luck would have it. | |
| So anyway, yeah, we broke up. | |
| Again, for the cheating reason, again. | |
| Someone I had messaged rightfully, in retrospect, messaged my girlfriend and said, hey, you know, so-and-so is messaging me. | |
| So that didn't go over well. | |
| So we broke up. | |
| And then I end up moving in with my father after that for a couple months. | |
| And during COVID, I didn't really see my kids too much. | |
| And this had been my worst break. | |
| I won't give you any bullshit, Steph. | |
| I was in a bad mental state and I used COVID as an excuse, but really I just couldn't I couldn't drag myself. | |
| I mean I still did from time to time I just like I know there was one stretch for example, it was maybe like three weeks where I didn't go over Just mentally. | |
| I I didn't want to go over there and you know, my girl my ex at the time was very Contemptuous vindictive and you know rightfully so I I don't I don't think that she was wrong some degree to be that way towards me, but I just didn't want to Go there to, you know, be an empty shell for my kids, because I wouldn't really mentally be in it. | |
| I would just be the whole time thinking, oh my god, like, you know, there she is, and she hates me, and I feel like shit. | |
| Well, I mean, so, it's kind of a wild thing, right? | |
| So, in your message, you're like, hey, my partner's crazy, and irrational, and this, that, and the other, right? | |
| And now, like, all I can hear is the things that you did wrong. | |
| So it's kind of a gap, right? | |
| Oh no, I mean, I 100% agree. | |
| At the beginning, you know, long ago, before we even got to this part of the story, I should have walked away. | |
| No, she should have walked away, because I'm the one that wronged her. | |
| So, I mean, I'm not justifying the cheating or anything like that, but was she, like, was she just not touching you? | |
| Was there no physical affection, no sex life, or anything? | |
| Oh, well that, no. | |
| There was, but it was basically like, I mean, I would have to I | |
| don't know, maybe if I was more forward and stuff. | |
| I don't mean to gaslight myself, but But just for me, it didn't work. | |
| Well, motherhood doesn't make women feel super sexy. | |
| So for a while there, it's the man's job to initiate. | |
| But anyway, go on. | |
| Right. And that's continued just until recently, by the way. | |
| So that was her views towards our sex life. | |
| Well, actions towards. | |
| So just for future reference when we get there. | |
| But anyway, so back to So it was COVID. | |
| So eventually what happened was, I think near the end of 2020, we got back together. | |
| I mean, I had one of the very rare heart-to-heart sort of moments with my dad, although it was mostly just me talking and him saying, yep, yep, yep. | |
| But anyway, I talked to him about it and I agreed that, you know, I would try one last time to get back together with her, even though every time before I had, you know, screwed around on her. | |
| But I figured it was for the best interest of the children. | |
| But also, I still loved her at the time, and I wanted to make things work with us. | |
| Sorry, you loved her? | |
| I had feelings that, in my mind, I... | |
| I'm not trying to catch you out here. | |
| I'm just... | |
| I mean, you've been a listener for how long? | |
| I want to say 2013? | |
| 2014, maybe? | |
| Yeah, sorry. | |
| Maybe earlier? | |
| I'm just hearing the credibility of the show as a whole take a massive nose dive. | |
| But hey, that's just the way things are. | |
| So, you loved her at this point, and you're talking to the guy who defines love as our involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous. | |
| So how the living hell are you supposed to be able to feel love for this woman when you're not being virtuous? | |
| And she's coming back to you, and she's having unprotected sex, and you guys aren't creating a stable foundation for these poor children. | |
| How is their love? | |
| Tell me, what did you love about her? | |
| What virtues? | |
| About her did you love what morals did she manifest that you really respected? | |
| I'm willing to do this. | |
| Tell me tell me about the love Well, it's tough. | |
| I don't I don't want to defend me from four years ago because I think me from four years ago was incorrect and No, no, you're not answering my question. | |
| You said you loved her. | |
| I'm asking what you loved about her I'm just and I'm not saying there was nothing to love about her. | |
| I'm just curious well, there were Probably no virtues. | |
| I'll be straight up about that. | |
| Arguably, she was, is a good mother, but there are... | |
| No! Hang on. | |
| Hang on. | |
| Would a good mother choose you for the father? | |
| I mean, I'm sure she's making the best of a bad situation, but she made the bad situation. | |
| She chose to have unprotected sex. | |
| with an unstable guy who was cheating on her constantly with a hundred plus women online. | |
| The quality of the father is determined by the man she chooses to be the father. | |
| Right. Okay, so if we're not giving her that, then I can't really give her... | |
| Okay, so you didn't love her? | |
| I just, I can't, I can't, you know... | |
| I don't mean to be Chris Rock, but you know, get that word out of your mouth, right? | |
| No, I get it. | |
| Right, I'm defouling, you know, the very concept of love. | |
| I mean, you may have had a horniness, you may have had an attachment, you may have had some co-dependent, like whatever it would be, right? | |
| But not love. | |
| No, I think that's a good way to put it, Steph, thank you, an attachment. | |
| There was an attachment, and then, you know, The best interest of the children that's you know for me. | |
| I always just thought and It's true obviously to some degree Sorry, what do you mean? | |
| I don't know what best interest of the child. | |
| I don't know what you're referring to here Like who's thinking that who's not thinking that what do you mean? | |
| But for me, so that would be my thought because then they'd have best interest of the child at home Right. | |
| The hell are you talking about? | |
| I mean you choose this woman you keep cheating on them you keep breaking up You're sad over COVID so you don't see them. | |
| I'm trying to figure out where best interest of the children has ever been central to your thinking. | |
| I'm just being frank with you, right? | |
| I mean, I'm happy to hear how this is. | |
| I just, I don't see it. | |
| That doesn't mean it's not there, right? | |
| Correct. So help me see how your life has centered around what's best for your children. | |
| Well, I would say that up until the point I made that choice, it wasn't. | |
| And then I made the choice to have it revolve around them. | |
| And sorry, this was how long ago? | |
| Near the end of 2020, I believe. | |
| Okay. So you've got three kids, like four or five and down? | |
| Yeah, that's right. | |
| Yeah. Okay. | |
| So then you start to say, I better make things about the best interest of the children and what happens then? | |
| Right. Yes, we do get back together. | |
| Now this was the time when I got into that, like the whole sex addict stuff, SAA, and I saw a doctor. | |
| So I really hit the ground running this time and I actually put my money where my mouth is and I didn't cheat on her at all that time, even online. | |
| I might have went on instagram once to look at someone's pictures. | |
| That was it um, but um what happened that time was I think she Was still mad at me or something. | |
| I don't know but she had been very mean during that stint in the relationship when we were together for a couple months and um, I kind of just let it happen because I was like Just I guess in her messages to me like be very overtly Like rude or demanding of me to do things. | |
| These are all your descriptions. | |
| I want to know what the facts are. | |
| What would she say? | |
| Uh, okay. | |
| So maybe let's say for example, if, um, maybe I like forgot, uh, to do, you know, the garbage, um, or the dishes one time or something like that. | |
| And then she would say, you know, like, don't worry, like I'll do the dishes. | |
| Cause obviously you have more important things to do or I'll, Do the garbage, you know, you were doing something else more important. | |
| Uh, that sort of reaction to aggressive. | |
| Well, yes, except not a little lot, but well, no, that's not super passive aggressive. | |
| I mean, but that's, yeah, that's okay. | |
| Let's just say that's passive aggressive. | |
| All right. | |
| Sure. So that's super mean, like she's not calling you or whatever. | |
| No, uh, just that kind of behavior, I guess. | |
| No, she's never been overtly like mean or or anything like that. | |
| It's always this kind of passive passive-aggressive Yeah, I mean that's just the best word to use so I won't try to come up with other words but um things that I guess So serious I'm getting at stuff is that I just think she didn't respect me Ah, I think I think her respect towards me by then had been gone and I think even up to this day It's pretty, pretty thin. | |
| Right. And yet I know obviously, I wonder why, right? | |
| I get it. | |
| Hang on. | |
| What would she respect about you? | |
| And again, I'm asking this question, not because I'm saying there's nothing to respect. | |
| I just want to understand what would she respect about you? | |
| I would think first and foremost would be that I'm actively trying to be there for my kids. | |
| At that point, obviously, before... | |
| But you were way less than 50-50 with them, right? | |
| You would see them a couple of times a week at best, right? | |
| Right. Right. | |
| And how long would you see them for? | |
| I would have come over for a couple hours, maybe occasionally I would stay the night if she went out or something. | |
| Okay, so you're seeing your kids sort of six, eight hours a week, right? | |
| Yeah, that's probably accurate. | |
| Okay, so she's got them the remaining... | |
| She's got them the remaining 6.7 days. | |
| Sure. Exactly. | |
| Yeah. Okay. | |
| So you're like 10%. | |
| So how is that actively trying to be there for your kids if you're only seeing them 10% of the time? | |
| Sorry. I meant like after once we got back together, then we were living together. | |
| Sorry. I didn't, I forgot to mention that and clarify that point. | |
| Okay. So then when you're living together, you're actively trying to be there for your kids. | |
| And what does that look like? | |
| Well, playing with them, obviously taking care of them and going out with them. | |
| I mean, we would do a lot of things together, me and her and the kids as a family. | |
| So that would be the main thing. | |
| It was just me trying to give them the family life with mom and dad and little to no craziness. | |
| And how were your kids with you after some fairly lengthy absences like over COVID you'd see them sometimes once every three weeks, right? | |
| So how were your kids with you after that interruption or I guess for your younger kids non-existent or barely existent relationship? | |
| Right. The two youngest didn't seem to have any effect, I think, because they were so young. | |
| I'm sure I'm wrong about that, clinically, but anyway. | |
| But the oldest one did certainly have a kind of like a, no, I don't want daddy, just mommy sort of mentality. | |
| And to give like a specific example, maybe like at nighttime, she wouldn't want a hug and kiss from me, but she would from mom. | |
| That would be it, I think. | |
| And that cleared up, I think. | |
| Sorry, maybe not yet, because we were only back together this time for a couple months. | |
| And then there was a blow-up scenario. | |
| So what had happened was I was very tense, holding in a lot of anger at her one morning. | |
| I was getting our oldest ready for school. | |
| The catalyst of my outburst was something... | |
| I think it was I was trying to dress our daughter up one way for school and my girlfriend at the time was kind of demanding she wear something else. | |
| I put our daughter in the car and can't remember exactly what had happened. | |
| She was fighting me about something. | |
| Maybe, uh, she just didn't want to go in the car. | |
| I can't exactly remember. | |
| Um, and then I just kind of lost it. | |
| Sorry. I just lost it. | |
| I, I kicked the car really hard. | |
| I, uh, I screamed at the top of my lungs. | |
| Like I was just very, very mad. | |
| Um, and, uh, my girlfriend heard she came down. | |
| My daughter was crying, of course. | |
| Sorry. You kicked, because your daughter didn't want to get in the car. | |
| You, you kicked the door and screamed at the top of your lungs. | |
| Yes. No, I understand. | |
| I was, I was acting like a child myself. | |
| I get that. | |
| No, no, that's a gross insult to children. | |
| Sorry. I'm sorry. | |
| I, I was acting like, uh, the, the, uh, how people view, uh, children who are upset, uh, how, how the popular culture thinks. | |
| Yeah. You were having a terrifying rage tantrum right in front of your child. | |
| Sorry. And that wasn't the, uh, well, I don't know from anyone else's perspective, but from my perspective, the worst part of it was then I. When, uh, when my girlfriend came out to console the daughter, I saw her and I got in the car and I drove away, but then I did stop, um, like halfway down the road and I was like, okay, I can't do that. | |
| Cause that's just going to make things even worse. | |
| I eventually like that, that's when I calmed down and then, uh, yeah. | |
| So suffice to say after that instance, um, I guess it's not suffice to say, but my decision ended up being to just leave. | |
| Um, because to leave, I don't know what that means. | |
| To leave the house, to leave the family. | |
| Oh, so after you rage quit the family? | |
| So my thinking at the time was that obviously my girlfriend would want me to leave, that she would want to break up because of that instance, so I was ahead of the curve in my mind, I guess. | |
| Okay, and then? | |
| I'm sorry, how long ago was this? | |
| So this would have been early 2021. | |
| Yeah. Okay. | |
| So your, your whole resolution to be, be there for your kids lasted less than a fucking year? | |
| Uh, significantly. | |
| Yes. Okay. | |
| I mean, why didn't you reference that? | |
| To, to be there for your kids, to do what's right by your kids. | |
| Why didn't you reference that rather than kicking the car? | |
| And screaming. | |
| Why didn't you reference that, rather than just driving off? | |
| Why didn't you reference that, rather than deciding to leave? | |
| Why didn't you say, well geez, if I have a problem with my temper, I better go get some anger management, I better go get some therapy, rather than just fucking bail? | |
| After wooing your eldest child back into your confidence and saying, no no, daddy's gonna be here, you should attach with me again, and then pull it off, right? | |
| Why wouldn't you just go to therapy, or get anger management, or Or, you know, I mean, there's ways to deal with a bad temper, right? | |
| Right. No, I did go to the anger management after, actually. | |
| No, no, but before you decide to leave the family. | |
| Right. I mean, I think, Steph, honest answer is probably that's what I wanted to do. | |
| So we're back to selfish. | |
| I think, yeah. | |
| Okay. I'm just, Just want to make sure I'm tracking the situation. | |
| Oh, I mean, I, I haven't, I haven't spoken to you about this instance yet. | |
| So I, I never really had a chance to get someone's opinion who was, you know, uh, worth hearing the opinion of, I guess, let's say about these kinds of things. | |
| So I never really thought about it that way, but based on what you're saying, yeah, I mean, that was a selfless act because I, I didn't fight for, I didn't, I didn't even talk to her about it. | |
| I didn't say, you know, listen, like, okay, I know I just blew up, but I want to make this work. | |
| You know, I didn't. | |
| I don't even think I tried that. | |
| Maybe I sent a message, but, you know. | |
| Okay. So you wanted to bail. | |
| Now, why did you want to bail? | |
| Because I don't like her. | |
| I don't like living with her. | |
| We're basically diametrically opposed on most things. | |
| I know that's vague. | |
| Let's say, I mean, Well, I'm trying to think of something concrete because it's it's like everything right? | |
| I'm just I'm trying to pinpoint like one thing so You know, well not not strictly vague to children, but you know, like politically, um, socially, you know, she's very like Progressive in her beliefs, although um I think she just kind of follows the herd sort of well, you know, I'm bro Oh my gosh. | |
| So why are women big government? | |
| And especially single moms, right? | |
| Because she's half been a single mom, right? | |
| Right. So why are single moms big government? | |
| Because they don't have a man they can trust. | |
| So complaining that she's liberal when you keep abandoning the family is complaining about an effect that you are largely responsible for creating. | |
| Thank you. | |
| you. | |
| She's no choice but to rely on the government because she can't rely on you. | |
| Right. Happily married women tend to be in small government. | |
| Mm-hmm. | |
| So it's a little tough to blame her for that, in my opinion. | |
| Right. Well, what else? | |
| short. No, no, for sure. | |
| You know, she's more of like a social person. | |
| I'm more of an introvert. | |
| Well, maybe you're an introvert or maybe you just have a bad conscience and that distances you from people. | |
| Because you've got secrets to hide, right? | |
| Right. That's possible. | |
| If you're currently managing, you know, six or ten women on rotation in your dating apps, it's a little tough to just relax and chat with people, right? | |
| I never thought of it that way I mean the way that I I just sorry I was gonna say on that point I was my justification on my belief my thoughts on our just that I I'm just kind of I Just kind of distance myself from people Just because I feel like everyone's just supporting kind of the way that the world is now and I know it sounds silly, | |
| I guess, saying it out loud, but that's sort of my... | |
| I don't want to go as far to say I think everyone's stupid, but kind of like everyone... | |
| I guess I just assume that everyone I see... | |
| You feel superior to people because they're NPCs and normies, right? | |
| Yeah, exactly. | |
| Right, but they're probably not treating with their wives on their wives or girlfriends or the mothers of the children with, you know, a hundred plus women. | |
| So, I mean, I get what you're saying. | |
| So this, this is vanity, right? | |
| That I'm superior. | |
| Even though I can't run a relationship or be a good father in a consistent way to save my life. | |
| At this point, because I went over most of the history, let's wait to the end, I guess, so I'll keep going with the story. | |
| Sorry, no, I'm jumping ahead because you're asking about how we're not related, how we're buttheads, basically, ideologically or in our beliefs. | |
| She's very much when it comes to parent. | |
| I mean, I'm more so now. | |
| I'm a lot more on board with whole peaceful parenting thing now. | |
| Now I wasn't. | |
| Like the time we're still talking about like back in 20 early 2021, let's say. | |
| So by then you've been listening to me for sort of eight plus years, but you were still not down on piece of parenting. | |
| Did you spank your children? | |
| Sorry, I just want to clarify that I wasn't really listening too much about that stuff. | |
| At that time, it was only like the last maybe year or so, like right now, the last year that I'm... | |
| So did you hit your children? | |
| I did, Steph, yes. | |
| Okay, and how often would you hit them and how would you hit them? | |
| So back then, let's say, up until I stopped doing it, so that was recently this last year, but probably I want to be fair. | |
| I don't want to underplay my involvement here, so let's say maybe once every two days. | |
| Oh my gosh, really? | |
| Like I said, I don't want to make it sound like I was better than I was, so if I'm estimating... | |
| Hang on, hang on. | |
| So, at what age did your children have to be before you... | |
| I assume you didn't hit the babies, right? | |
| Or did you? | |
| I told myself I wasn't going to lie, so I won't. | |
| I did, my oldest, when she was very young. | |
| Yes, I did. | |
| Very young being how old? | |
| A couple months. | |
| So you hit your baby? | |
| I did, Steph, yes. | |
| And was this true for all three of your children? | |
| I think so, yes. | |
| Sorry, what do you mean you think so? | |
| I know for two of them, so I would assume, yes, for the other one. | |
| I don't remember any specific instances with her, but if I did the other two times, I must have. | |
| Okay. So if you hit your child every two days, then you're hitting your children about 180 times a year? | |
| you hit your child, then you're hitting your child. | |
| So, I don't know if there was, I mean, there may not be a big difference, but just in case there is, sometimes it might have just been like grabbing the arm. | |
| You know, like, don't do that or come here. | |
| Not necessarily a smack. | |
| Physical force, right? | |
| But aggressive. | |
| Yeah, no, I'm just, just to be clear. | |
| Yes. So, if I'm right about that estimate, then that would be correct. | |
| Yes. Right. | |
| Okay. And your daughter is how old now? | |
| My oldest is eight and a half. | |
| And then, yeah. | |
| Okay, so, seven times, so you hit her from birth, a little after birth, to age of seven or so? | |
| Obviously, I'm going to sound like a terrible person, but when they got older, whether it was because I was mellowing out more or just because they could, you know, they were more likely to tell people, I didn't hit them as less, as much, sorry. | |
| So, it kind of makes it Calculation's a bit harder to do, but, you know... | |
| Okay, but if we did two a day, which I know is unfair, right? | |
| So if we did two a day times seven years, then that's 1,260 hittings. | |
| We could cut that down by 400, so maybe 860, because you hit them less as they got older? | |
| Right. Yeah, that sounds like it makes sense. | |
| And then if you put the other two kids together, you would have hit your kids Well over 11 or use physical violence against your kids or physical control or coercion 1200 1300 times That sounds about right stuff based on the math, yes, all right It's monstrous. | |
| I I get it. | |
| I don't think you do To be honest because you wouldn't be saying no. | |
| No, no, I get it Right, right. | |
| It sounds like I'm trying to just get past it. | |
| Okay. Yeah, I Want to accept I guess I'm fighting against it to some degree, but I mean, that's what happened. | |
| No, that's not what happened. | |
| That's what you chose. | |
| That's what you chose voluntarily while being exposed for over 10 years to the non-aggression principle. | |
| That's what you voluntarily chose to do to your babies and toddlers. | |
| Didn't happen. | |
| I think, in fairness, I really never embraced those ideas from you. | |
| I think when I listened to you... | |
| So you didn't embrace the non-aggression principle? | |
| So you felt that the initiation of the use of force was moral? | |
| I don't think I gave it much thought. | |
| I didn't say whether you gave it. | |
| What did I say? | |
| What did I say? | |
| Did I say you gave it much thought? | |
| What was my actual words? | |
| You said that I think it was moral. | |
| No. I said, you were exposed to the ideas. | |
| Right. Now, once you're exposed to the ideas, you have 100% responsibility. | |
| No excuses. | |
| Now, you can say, well, but I didn't listen to that part so much, blah, blah, blah. | |
| Doesn't matter. | |
| Doesn't matter. | |
| Because you knew That I did shows about parenting, right? | |
| I must have, yes. | |
| You knew. | |
| I mean, half my feed sometimes, right? | |
| Right. So, you voluntarily chose to avoid, according to your report, right? | |
| You voluntarily chose to avoid relationships and parenting while having a terrible relationship with the mother of your children and hitting your babies. | |
| That's a choice. | |
| Right. So, the question is, why? | |
| If you are having exposure to non-violent approaches to life, right? | |
| Non-aggression principle and so on. | |
| The question then becomes, why did you, assuming you're telling me the truth, right? | |
| Why did you steadfastly avoid Picking up, any books on parenting, listening to any of my shows on parenting, doing a call-in, whatever could have helped back then. | |
| And I say this, like, I don't mean like, well, why the hell? | |
| I mean, like, I'm genuinely curious, like, why? | |
| Why would you avoid that? | |
| Why would you avoid that? | |
| I'm trying to, I want to give you an answer that's not, I don't know, so I'm, I'm scraping my brains to come up with what my thinking would have been. | |
| I mean, obviously, I wasn't thinking. | |
| I wasn't thinking is not an answer because you can't claim that you were listening to a philosophy show for over a decade while also avoiding thought, right? | |
| That doesn't make any sense, right? | |
| Well, I think What I was kind of doing, Steph, was kind of listening to the shows for entertainment, in the sense of like, you know, let's listen to... | |
| Yeah, but... | |
| I'm going to tell you how dysfunctional these people are. | |
| Right? Right. | |
| Your entertainment was specifically about thought. | |
| So you can't say you weren't thinking. | |
| People who don't think at all don't listen to my show. | |
| So what else? | |
| Thank you. | |
| I must have thought I could figure it all out myself. | |
| Well, okay, but you didn't, so, right? | |
| Right. So, so given that you weren't figuring it all out yourself, you would have revisited that opinion. | |
| Right? If I'm driving and I think I don't need the GPS, right? | |
| I'll get there, I don't need the GPS, right? | |
| And then I get my ass lost, what do I do? | |
| Turn on the GPS! | |
| Right. Right? | |
| Well, just to put it in an example of at the time, right? | |
| So what I did was, okay, I had this blowout. | |
| I'm going to leave the family. | |
| I'm going to do anger management. | |
| I'm going to get my own place. | |
| And then I'll have the kids. | |
| No, but that's years after you were hitting your babies. | |
| The original. | |
| Right. Okay. | |
| So let's go back. | |
| Okay. All right. | |
| You keep hitting your babies. | |
| You're listening to the non-progression principle guy who talks about parenting and you studiously avoid everything I'm talking about. | |
| And again, I'm just back to that question. | |
| Why? Well, could it be that at the time I just, I heard something like peaceful parenting or NAP and I didn't even, I didn't even think about like, oh, I should apply this to my, my, my, my kids. | |
| I, I didn't even... | |
| Only if your brain did. | |
| Right? A philosopher I hugely respect talks about parenting, but there's no way that that would have anything to do with how I'm parenting. | |
| I mean, that's not an answer, right? | |
| I mean, I really... | |
| I hear what you're saying, but at the time I really don't think I was listening to enough of your shows, or at least the ones where you talk about these things, that I would have been like... | |
| But why? | |
| Right, so I know how this stuff works, right? | |
| There's a feed, right? | |
| Okay. And down comes the shows, right? | |
| Right. Okay. | |
| And how many hundreds of shows on parenting and interviews with experts, even before the Peaceful Parenting book, right? | |
| How many hundreds of shows did I do on parenting? | |
| So you see the feeds coming down, right? | |
| Oh, here's a show. | |
| Here's another show. | |
| Here's a title. | |
| Oh, here's a category. | |
| Oh, here's another show. | |
| And you must have avoided clicking on anything to do with parenting. | |
| Right? Right. | |
| Okay. So why? | |
| So probably I would have just thought it was boring. | |
| Well, that's not an answer. | |
| That's an avoidance, right? | |
| Maybe I, uh... | |
| I just didn't care, I guess, Steph. | |
| I didn't care about making myself a better dad. | |
| No, you didn't care. | |
| You'd listen to them for entertainment. | |
| You see, everything you're saying is false. | |
| If you just found what I'm saying is entertaining, right? | |
| Then why wouldn't you... | |
| Why would you avoid the entertaining stuff I was saying about parenting? | |
| Everything is just empty entertainment. | |
| Oh shit. | |
| I can't listen to that. | |
| Right? Well, to me, maybe if I heard about it, I would, I would feel, I'd start feeling guilty because these are the things I should be doing and, and I'm not doing them. | |
| I'm doing the opposite, you know? | |
| So if I'm trying to entertain myself, why would I listen to something that's going to make me feel shitty and guilty? | |
| Okay. So, so you knew that if you, I assume that you knew. | |
| That if you listen to me, you're gonna feel bad. | |
| I think I would have, yes. | |
| Okay, so you were avoiding what I was talking about with regards to parenting because you were avoiding feeling bad, right? | |
| That must have been it, I suppose. | |
| I'm not trying to give you a foggy answer. | |
| But you are giving me a foggy answer, right? | |
| I try not to connect too much with who I was back then because none of this makes sense to me in retrospect. | |
| The way I acted, right? | |
| Like who I am now, I would have done things completely different. | |
| I know everybody says that, so maybe that's not a good answer, but I'm struggling to think why not? | |
| All I can think of is that I just didn't seek anything out because I thought every time I did something, every time I hit my kid, I just told myself, you know, next time I won't do it. | |
| This was the last time. | |
| Oh, sorry. | |
| So every time you hit your children, you said, I'm not going to do it again? | |
| Yeah. Yes. | |
| So then you knew it was wrong? | |
| Of course. | |
| Okay, no, I just was checking because some people justify it, right? | |
| No, no, no. | |
| I might have been kind of on board with spanking maybe back then, but now I'm completely, for what it's worth, obviously, knowing what you know now. | |
| Not back then. | |
| Yeah, but I'm just saying. | |
| But no, obviously, even back then, I knew it was wrong. | |
| I mean, certainly, at least legally. | |
| Yeah, I guess. | |
| I wasn't living a moral life. | |
| Wow, again, that's just a cope, right? | |
| That doesn't actually answer anything. | |
| So, you knew it was wrong, and you were really into a moral philosopher who talked about peaceful parenting, and you avoided all the shows. | |
| That would have helped. | |
| Right. Okay. | |
| Why? Well, the only thing I can think of, I guess, would be that I didn't think I was doing anything wrong at the time. | |
| Well, I thought you said that you promised yourself you were going to stop every time you did it. | |
| So I'm not quite sure. | |
| All right. | |
| So then maybe the answer is that I figured I could just hide it. | |
| What? So. | |
| If I couldn't control my actions... | |
| No, no, but how did you... | |
| First of all, you could control your actions, because you didn't hit your kids in public, right? | |
| Right. So you could absolutely control your actions, agreed? | |
| That's right. | |
| Okay? You could control your actions, and when it comes to hiding it, I mean, you didn't want to be doing it, because afterwards you'd say, I shouldn't do this. | |
| I want to stop. | |
| So, if you have a resource, I mean, I'm a free call-in, right? | |
| You got enough time to message all the females in the known universe, right? | |
| So, why did you avoid the help to stop hitting your children? | |
| I mean, I don't know, Steph. | |
| What I can say is that I did call in back when my oldest was young, but I didn't talk about this stuff. | |
| I hid it. | |
| Well, that's even worse, right? | |
| Right. Because then you were on the call with me, knowing you were hitting your children, and you did not ask how to stop. | |
| Why not? | |
| not? | |
| I mean, probably at the time, one of my fears was probably, like, if somehow someone finds out who I am, you know, there's going to be legal repercussions, of course. | |
| And in my mind, it was... | |
| Okay, so if that's the issue, then you just listen to the podcast. | |
| you. | |
| I think, honestly, Seth, I guess I was just, no, sorry, I was just being selfish. | |
| Well, but these negative majorities don't explain anything. | |
| It's sort of saying, why did I do wrong? | |
| Because I was selfish. | |
| Selfish is just another word for wrong. | |
| Doesn't explain anything. | |
| Thank you. | |
| I mean, all these things I've told you, they... | |
| feel like the answer's to me, so I'm not... | |
| I'm not sure. | |
| No, because when the answer hits you, you'll feel it. | |
| You'll have an emotion. | |
| You've no particular... | |
| I mean, I can hear some wobble in your voice, but that's just nervousness at the exposure, right? | |
| True. But I'm... | |
| Am I able to ask if you have any thoughts? | |
| I mean, I know the answer, but I don't know in particular the cause of the answer. | |
| So, the reason that you avoided getting help with your violence towards your children is because you wanted to keep being violent towards your children. | |
| You preferred that. | |
| You wanted that. | |
| Why did you hit your children and not get help? | |
| Because you wanted to keep hitting your children. | |
| Now, why you wanted to keep hitting your children? | |
| I mean, that's a simple answer, right? | |
| Then the question is, well, why did you want to keep hitting your children? | |
| Okay, well that that that sheds a lot of light for me because Yeah, so that's correct And I mean so remind me of how you were disciplined as a kid Well, I wasn't beaten myself Maybe once in a while, but it was very my father was very aggressive. | |
| So just kind of yelling and fear basically You know, do this, you better, you know, you better do this. | |
| Right. Now, when you say beaten, I'm not sure what that relationship is to spanked. | |
| Oh, well, well, spanking, of course, you know, on the, on the buttocks and then a beating I would consider like, I don't know, smacking the face or pushing down. | |
| Oh, I don't know. | |
| Maybe as far as I can remember, like 10 times the entire childhood, maybe. | |
| Okay, so you were barely spanked and only beaten, say, twice, right? | |
| I don't even know if I was beaten by my dad. | |
| It was always just the fear, like the physical aggression, the yelling. | |
| So you were barely hit as a kid, right? | |
| Once every year or so. | |
| That's accurate. | |
| Okay. But your father was verbally aggressive, is that right? | |
| Like, what would he say that would be verbally aggressive? | |
| Maybe. I don't know. | |
| Let's say if I did something wrong. | |
| I'm trying to think of an example now. | |
| I'm trying to remember what it exactly would have set him off because it feels like it wouldn't have been much because it isn't much these days. | |
| But yeah. | |
| Thank you. | |
| I don't know, maybe talking back, let's say. | |
| Probably something like talking back. | |
| But you disagree about him, or you have a different perspective? | |
| Yeah. Now that I said that, actually, that was probably most of them. | |
| Okay, so you would disagree with your father. | |
| They always say talking back, like all conversations are talking back, right? | |
| But there's a pejorative, right? | |
| It's like when parents say, fix your attitude. | |
| It's like, well, I'm sort of surly because you keep telling me to fix my attitude. | |
| So all conversations are talking back, right? | |
| I talk, you talk back. | |
| You talk, I talk back. | |
| It's all talking back. | |
| But what he meant was disagreeing with him. | |
| Okay, so if you would disagree with him, what would he say? | |
| I mean, just raise his voice and get mad and... | |
| I mean, without knowing the exact example, but like... | |
| Maybe just like... | |
| Maybe just like as simple as, like, shut up! | |
| Or something like that. | |
| Like, very angrily, very aggressively. | |
| And then he would go back. | |
| I kind of stir out about whatever it would be. | |
| I don't know exactly. | |
| Cause like I said, it was probably so inconsequential looking back that I don't even remember what it would have been now. | |
| Okay. So he told you to shut up and then just continue his rant. | |
| Yeah. Okay. | |
| Did he call you names? | |
| Stupid, selfish, mean, dumb? | |
| Uh, maybe once in a while, like, like stupid or are you stupid? | |
| Something like that. | |
| I don't think he was ever like, like would just randomly like call me like, Oh, You're an idiot or you are stupid or what about your mother, you know? | |
| Uh, yeah, no, I think similar, not in the aggressiveness, but if you were to disrespect her, I think it would be the same kind of respect for me. | |
| I'm sorry. | |
| Yeah, I know that. | |
| Uh, so. | |
| Well, similar thing, maybe talking back and in terms of like, you know, she would say this. | |
| Yeah. And then I would say, you know, maybe something snarky back. | |
| It might've been something like, anyway. | |
| Um, but yeah, so she wouldn't be as aggressive as Yelli, or at least maybe just because she was a woman, it wasn't as scary to me, but, um, very similar to my dad. | |
| Okay. So both of your parents are aggressive. | |
| Um, and have they ever acknowledged that they were too aggressive as parents or ever made apologies or restitution or anything like that? | |
| Um, no, not really. | |
| Uh, the only sorry, if I ever got a story and I, I've been talking, trying to talk to them recently, like last year about this. | |
| And basically I only get sorry, but right. | |
| Sorry, but you know, so everything before that, but you can get rid of, okay. | |
| So, I mean, you have something on your conscience. | |
| I don't know what it is, but you have something on your conscience is causing you to hit babies. | |
| I don't know, you weren't hit much, and you were verbally aggressed against, but it was like, shut up, or whatever, it wasn't like, you know, I wish you'd never been born, or, you know, I hate you, or, like, it wasn't anything as far as I can tell. | |
| So there's something that's weighing you down and triggering your aggression. | |
| I don't know what it is. | |
| I don't know what it is. | |
| I was struck when you said, well, she was 17 and I was 19, but we didn't get together till later. | |
| Well, maybe you did, and maybe there was illegal stuff going on there. | |
| You don't have to tell me. | |
| You don't have to tell me, of course. | |
| There's something that's going on that is weighing down your conscience that's outside of your childhood from what I can see. | |
| Because the way that you behave around your children is so ugly that, at least in terms of the hitting, that I can't see the causal chain with your childhood, if that makes sense. | |
| And, you know, maybe I'm missing something or maybe there's information I don't have, which is fine. | |
| I don't want you to put yourself in any horrible situation here, but I'm just telling you that Whatever that thing is that you're not telling me, that's probably the cause. | |
| Right. So, um, no, it's nothing. | |
| Um, just a second. | |
| I'm just walking past some people here. | |
| Um, I didn't want to start talking about legal this. | |
| No, it's not, it's nothing. | |
| Um, it's nothing legal. | |
| Like I didn't, I don't mind talking about it. | |
| I, I, that, that woman, uh, even if she was 17, I mean, it's like, legal in where I live. | |
| So I was only 19. I was like 30 years old. | |
| So no, that's not it. | |
| I can't think of anything. | |
| Well, there's something that's given you this sexual compulsion, right? | |
| I mean, did you, were you molested as a child? | |
| Did you have really early exposure to pornography? | |
| Was there something that upset your sexuality that way? | |
| It was the pornography. | |
| Well, yeah, I'm not trying to, this is the golden answer, but I, if I had to pinpoint one thing, I would say that would be the main thing. | |
| And how old were you when you got exposed to that? | |
| Uh, so probably both of these things happened around the same time, which would have been, uh, online pornography and, uh, like, uh, I explicit video, like they weren't the stuff that's available on cable back in the day. | |
| Like it's music channels, like music videos. | |
| Like, with the skimpy dancers and stuff? | |
| Okay, you haven't answered my question, though. | |
| Sorry, sorry, so those happened around the same time, which was, sorry, I was getting to that part. | |
| I just wanted to make sure you knew what I was talking about. | |
| So, probably when I was six? | |
| Okay, so when you were six, you were watching skimpy MTV videos. | |
| Basically, yeah, exactly. | |
| Okay, so that's not pornography. | |
| Okay. So I'm, I'm asking you about the pornography. | |
| Okay. Uh, then in terms of actual pornography, um, Trying to think the first time I saw. | |
| No, it doesn't. | |
| I don't need the very first time. | |
| I just, when did you, I just haven't thought about it before. | |
| So you're making me think, uh, uh, probably 10 or 11 then. | |
| Okay, and how did you find out about it or get access to it? | |
| Internet was probably the first time. | |
| No, no, I understand. | |
| But how did you know to even look for it? | |
| Did a friend tell you, or...? | |
| Actually, if we're going back... | |
| Actually, sorry, I just unlocked a memory. | |
| My dad had a photo album, and I think he had at least one Pornographic picture in it, which I would have seen when I was again, probably back six or so or younger. | |
| Do you mean like a playboy thing or a toddler? | |
| I think what it was, was something that, cause he hid it behind other pictures, right? | |
| I remember, it's funny, it's not funny, but that I remember this so vividly. | |
| It was probably a big issue with my parents. | |
| That's probably why I remember it. | |
| But anyway, um, yeah, he, I think it was from. | |
| Uh, something he had saved from something he took himself, I think. | |
| But it was pornographic in nature. | |
| It was like a naked woman's bottom or something like that. | |
| Okay. Um, and, um, so, but you don't remember how you came across pornography on the internet when you were 10? | |
| Well, uh, I would have searched for it, but then of course that begs the question, what did I know to search for it? | |
| Um, I'm trying to not give non-answers, but the only thing I can think of is like, you know, young guys all together and someone just brings up, you know, booze or, you know, this or that. | |
| Then you just think, oh, I'm gonna look that up. | |
| Okay, and did your parents ever talk to you about the dangers of the internet and the dangers of this kind of material, particularly to young minds? | |
| No. Okay, so they were careless, very careless and negligent in their protection of you. | |
| Yeah, I can't remember really having a serious conversation of sitting down and talking about that or really anything to be honest with you. | |
| Okay. Remind me what your dating experience was before you were 19. There was one other woman who I met online who I dated for a couple months. | |
| The year before I met the mother of my children, and that was about it. | |
| You didn't date until you were 18? | |
| Yeah. Well, what the hell do you do in your teen years? | |
| I'm from a lack of wanting to, but we're trying. | |
| A whole lot of masturbation stuff. | |
| Okay. Okay. | |
| And your parents didn't notice that you weren't dating? | |
| Well, my last year of high school, my dad was working cross-country. | |
| Sorry, the other side of the country. | |
| So, but even if he was there, I doubt he would have noticed, but I didn't hear anything. | |
| I mean, people always bring up this distance shit, like you and I aren't calling from either, like, wherever you are, right? | |
| I mean, it doesn't matter if someone's away, especially with technology these days, right? | |
| Or at least relatively recently. | |
| Okay. Okay. | |
| So, neither your mother nor your father seemed to care that you weren't dating in your teens. | |
| No. Okay. | |
| Why do you think they didn't care? | |
| Um, my, my theory about it now is that for both of them, they just had so much. | |
| Their own problems between the two of them, uh, unresolved, uh, you know, maybe hidden animosity, whatever that they just didn't have. | |
| They didn't give enough thought to, to me or my brother for that matter. | |
| But they were selfish. | |
| They were focused on their own problems rather than what was best for you. | |
| Sorry. Do you have siblings? | |
| Yes, I do. | |
| One full, and then two half. | |
| Okay. So, they abandoned parenting because they had marital problems? | |
| I have to say that that would... | |
| I mean, I'll probably never find out the truth, but that would be my guess. | |
| Okay. So, your parents are fairly relentlessly aggressive. | |
| They're incredibly negligent. | |
| They hit you occasionally. | |
| Oh, what's the plus of having them in your life? | |
| And they've also never accepted real responsibility, apologized and made restitution. | |
| So what's the plus of having them in your life? | |
| Oh, I don't have my father in my life. | |
| I don't think I followed, I don't know if I followed whatever the procedure is for the whole defooing thing, but I cut him out of my life. | |
| I just stopped talking to him. | |
| And when was that? | |
| A couple months ago. | |
| OK, so what about earlier, right? | |
| I mean, you've listened to my show, right? | |
| Where I say you don't have to have abusive people in your life if they're unapologetic. | |
| You don't have to have unapologetically abusive people in your life. | |
| And you've been listening to this, right, since you were 20 or so. | |
| And so what was the plus for that decade? | |
| For my mother, she's always, I'll start with my mother, because there's something there. | |
| So for her, she's always been kind of around to help. | |
| Whether financially with us, like me and my ex, if we're in a hard time financially, she would help. | |
| Maybe she'd come to help watch the kids. | |
| And then just in general, I just, I was still in that mindset of, oh, you know, it's, it's the holidays. | |
| You need to have a family, you know, Thanksgiving and Christmas, you know, you can't not have that, right? | |
| Oh, so you had a sentimentality about it. | |
| And she gave you money in time, right? | |
| Yeah. Okay. | |
| Yeah, exactly. | |
| And did she ever give you any advice about the instability with your girlfriend? | |
| No. In fact, annoyingly, she gave me advice post-breakup last week, which really annoyed me because when I asked her, she said something like this, Steph. | |
| She said, oh, it's not really my place. | |
| I'm like, what? | |
| My whole family would never understand like any of this like how a family should operate I mean, it's like everyone thinks it's free-for-all. | |
| I mean, it's it's So I'm sorry, it's crazy. | |
| I never understand. | |
| I don't Well, if you were to try to talk to him be like, oh, did you did you do this for him? | |
| Did you parent him that you they would just be like I Fed him, you know, I I was there I had a roof over his head. | |
| I did the best I could with knowledge I had I've heard that many times over the last few months Oh, yeah, so they make excuses like every guilty conscience NPC, right? | |
| Mm-hmm. | |
| Okay. Yeah. | |
| As do you. | |
| So... As do you. | |
| So why... | |
| So, because when you listen back to this, you'll hear all of the excuses that you're making regarding your parenting. | |
| So, why did you want to keep hitting your babies and toddlers? | |
| Because I kept wanting to do that. | |
| Yeah, that's a tautology. | |
| So, but why? | |
| Right, so if somebody's an alcoholic, say, well, why did you keep drinking? | |
| Well, because I preferred keeping drinking, I chose to keep drinking, and then the question is why? | |
| Oh, I was self-medicating intense anxiety and depression because I was avoiding enough knowledge. | |
| Like, there's something about that, right? | |
| Sorry, I haven't answered your question. | |
| I mean, you must have taken some satisfaction or had a positive experience of hitting your babies and toddlers. | |
| Okay. Like, we don't act randomly, right? | |
| So, your babies and toddlers either removed a bad feeling, Or provided a good feeling, or both? | |
| Right? Because you were hedonistic, right? | |
| And hedonists pursue pleasure and avoid pain. | |
| So it must mean, if you chose to keep hitting your children by avoiding knowledge from me or others, that you were hitting your children in order to avoid a bad feeling, or achieve a good feeling, or both. | |
| So how did you feel when you hit your children? | |
| This is what I think was going on. | |
| I had a lot of pent-up anger and I was taking it out on them as an outlet to release that anger that I was feeling. | |
| That's a sort of psychological theory. | |
| How did you feel? | |
| Did you feel joy? | |
| Did you feel satisfaction? | |
| Did you feel power? | |
| Did you feel happiness? | |
| Did you feel a numb which was better than feeling bad? | |
| Like there has to be something in your Emotions, or your sensations, or your feelings, that was positive for you in hitting your children? | |
| Uh, perhaps. | |
| Like, I don't know if this is the answer. | |
| Hey, you were there! | |
| I know, I know, I know! | |
| Don't perhaps me! | |
| You were there! | |
| Don't perhaps me! | |
| You did it a thousand plus times! | |
| What did you? | |
| You raised your hands, you whack your baby, you whack your toddler. | |
| What do you feel? | |
| do you feel? | |
| And it has to feel good, right? | |
| It has to feel better than not doing it, otherwise you wouldn't do it. | |
| Like, you didn't have access to principles, so you were just following the pressure. | |
| You didn't have access to moral principles, so you were just following pleasure, right? | |
| The two words that come to mind are power and control. | |
| Okay, you felt power and control. | |
| Okay. Right. | |
| Like, this would almost certainly only ever happen if they were doing something I didn't want them to do. | |
| I think exclusively. | |
| Well, no, that's bullshit, man. | |
| Don't fucking do that to me. | |
| Jesus Christ, you hit a baby. | |
| Like, you mean if the baby was crying? | |
| Right. So you hit the baby. | |
| I'm not saying it's logical. | |
| I'm just saying that's... | |
| Okay, so it's not doing something that you didn't want them to do. | |
| I mean, I guess, sorry, you know what? | |
| Okay, so your baby's crying, and you hit the baby, and does that stop the baby crying? | |
| Of course. | |
| Okay, so it wasn't because the babies were doing something you didn't want them to do, because hitting a crying baby makes the baby cry more? | |
| Right. Okay. | |
| So you wanted to create suffering in your babies and toddlers because it gave you a sense of power? | |
| Well, I know it didn't make me happy. | |
| It must have been something positive, otherwise you wouldn't do it. | |
| Right. Because you weren't doing things based on principles, right? | |
| So it must have been something positive or you wouldn't have done it. | |
| But that's what I'm saying. | |
| Like, I feel like it was, sorry, the way I'm remembering it is that I had so much anger that I just wanted to do something. | |
| And I knew that I could get away with doing that. | |
| And if I did it to someone else, like an adult, obviously, Yeah, they can hit back. | |
| Babies can't hit back. | |
| Okay. That's what I was trying to get at. | |
| So, what do you mean by full of anger? | |
| Like, you would feel a lot of anger and then you'd feel better if you hit your babies and toddlers. | |
| Like, it would relieve what? | |
| What's the emotion that it was trying to relieve or how would you feel on hitting them? | |
| Like, how did that feel? | |
| I don't quite understand. | |
| Saying I was full of anger is not really Did it make you feel better? | |
| Did it make you feel less angry? | |
| Did I'm trying to like did you say well I'll replace my anger with guilt and that way I'm less dangerous. | |
| Oh, I don't know something like like what does that mean? | |
| I'm full of anger. | |
| You hit your kids and then how does that make things better for you? | |
| I don't mean logically. | |
| I just mean emotionally. | |
| Sure. Okay. | |
| Okay. Maybe it's, sorry, I know it's, I haven't given this enough thought. | |
| That's why to me, it's kind of like, it's just. | |
| It's more about re-experiencing the feelings, but okay. | |
| I know I'm trying to. | |
| No, I'm okay. | |
| So it would be, it would have been, I don't know what to do. | |
| So this is something to do. | |
| This is, this is an action that I can take. | |
| What happens if you feel this, I don't know what to do and don't hit your children, what happens? | |
| Like what happens emotionally? | |
| If you don't hit your children or your babies, what happens to you emotionally if you feel, I don't know what to do, you feel, I don't know, panic, anxiety or whatever. | |
| So what happens if you don't hit your kids? | |
| Well, like I was saying, I just would get angry because I want, I don't want them to do whatever is happening or I want them to stop doing whatever. | |
| If you don't hit your kids, what happens to you emotionally if you don't hit your kids? | |
| I know the answer to this one. | |
| Oh, sorry, sorry, me emotionally. | |
| Yeah, so you're feeling tense, or you're angry at your kids, or you're angry at something. | |
| What happens if you don't hit your kid? | |
| What happens to your emotions? | |
| I would feel like I'm a failure, like I'm not parenting correctly. | |
| Okay. What about your feelings? | |
| What would happen to your feelings? | |
| Like, what would you do emotionally? | |
| What would happen to you emotionally if you didn't hit your kid? | |
| I would be happy, of course, that I'm not hitting my kids. | |
| No, because as a hedonist, you'd be pursuing happiness. | |
| What would happen if you didn't hit your kids when you were upset? | |
| I don't know. | |
| don't know. | |
| You were avoiding something, right? | |
| I see what you mean. | |
| Okay. Well, in some instances, How this would have happened is if I'm trying to not involve the mother. | |
| Instead of asking her for help, I would just do what I did. | |
| Okay. What happens if you don't hit your kids? | |
| What happens to your emotions? | |
| What happens to you emotionally if you don't hit your kids? | |
| Honestly, I can't think of the answer, Stefan. | |
| I could tell you the answer. | |
| Please do. | |
| You would have burst into tears. | |
| You would have sobbed uncontrollably. | |
| Waves of agony and sadness and horror would have hit you. | |
| Thank you. | |
| The isolation and all of the accumulated fear of your aggressive parents would have all been uncorked at your chest and you would have fallen to the ground in tears. | |
| Because you would have broken the principle of using aggression against children, which meant you would have taken a moral stand against your parents. | |
| Thank you. | |
| Thank you. | |
| Were you ever aggressive with your siblings when you were a kid? | |
| Uh, sometimes. | |
| It was just, I only grew up with my, um, with my immediate, like my actual brother, the other half brothers are older. | |
| Uh, I would be aggressive with him. | |
| Uh, like if he was teasing me, I would resort to that. | |
| And sorry, was he younger or older? | |
| Older, uh, two years. | |
| I'm the youngest. | |
| So you guys would like throw hands at each other or would you hit or like what would happen? | |
| Maybe. I mean, like, the scenario would normally be something like he would be teasing me, you know, the big brother. | |
| Sorry. No, it's not supposed to be normal, so I won't normalize it. | |
| So he would be teasing me, and then I would, like, lash out, because I didn't know what else to do. | |
| And then what? | |
| Do you hit him, then he hit you back, or what would happen? | |
| I would definitely try to hit him. | |
| I don't remember if he hit me back. | |
| But then, of course, eventually, if the parents were around, which Normally they were. | |
| They would break us up. | |
| I don't remember how the conflict resolved. | |
| I don't know if we were told to say sorry. | |
| I can't remember now. | |
| I just remember having a similar kind of rate when I was a kid. | |
| Was that regarding your parents or your brother or both or others? | |
| The times that I can think about it... | |
| It would be involving, like, my brother, I guess. | |
| Yeah. Like, just teasing me, because they're, I guess, I don't know. | |
| It's just, I can remember just instances where, like, I, that would get to me, and I would just, like, go ballistic. | |
| Okay. So, vulnerability, when you have, a teasing is a brutal kind of verbal destruction. | |
| It's very much under-appreciated just how incredibly abusive teasing is. | |
| Because teasing, you know, it's got multiple words, you know, like it could be a woman in a bikini shaking her butt, it could be a stripper, it could be, you know, a teaser for a movie. | |
| But this sort of relentless psychological abuse that often elder siblings will perform is incredibly destructive. | |
| It's incredibly destructive and verbally sadistic to the nth degree. | |
| And what it teaches you is that you can't have a single shred of vulnerability. | |
| Because if you have vulnerability, then it will be used against you. | |
| Right. Right? | |
| If you show that you care about something, then you'll just be teased for it. | |
| You show you care about it, you go, ooh, he likes it, and they'll go and spout it. | |
| Like, all vulnerability, all emotional openness is weaponized against you. | |
| Right. Is that a fair way to put it? | |
| The pinpoint accurate 100% perfect way to put it, Steph. | |
| Right. So you had to attack all vulnerability within yourself, otherwise it would be weaponized against you, right? | |
| Yes. So then you hit your children because they're vulnerable, because they're expressing needs and preferences. | |
| Right. In a sense, it's you hitting yourself or attacking yourself, so you're not vulnerable to your brother. | |
| It's you hitting your children to keep them safe. | |
| Don't show emotion. | |
| Don't show need. | |
| Don't show preferences. | |
| you're going to get completely fucked up by a sibling. | |
| Thank you. | |
| Thank you. | |
| Maybe. I mean, I don't feel like I have the same anger towards my brother. | |
| I don't really have those emotions. | |
| You just told me that as a kid you felt the same anger, but it was towards your brother. | |
| Now, that's fine if you want to change that, but that's what you said. | |
| I said, is it towards your brother, towards your parents or someone else? | |
| And you said, my brother. | |
| Oh, sorry. | |
| Yes. Yes. | |
| When I had those, like, you know, we'll call them a tantrum. | |
| Yes. Yeah. | |
| Okay. The only times I can really remember. | |
| Have you talked to your brother about what happened to you as a kid or how's your relationship with him if there is one? | |
| Sure. | |
| Um, we can talk, but, uh, we can talk about the family. | |
| Um, sorry, I'll just answer the question. | |
| It's, it's okay. | |
| The relationship is okay. | |
| Okay. So have you, have you talked to him about what happened to you as a kid? | |
| No, I've, I've never thought to be like, you know, Hey brother, you tease me a lot and I still remember it. | |
| I mean, really, it's a form of psychological torture, right? | |
| Right. And it's very unfair because, of course, his brain was more developed than yours, right? | |
| It's a big difference between 10 and 8 or 12 and 10 when you're a kid. | |
| Right. And your parents let it all happen? | |
| Well, that's kind of where all of my frustration is pointing towards, Steph, is my parents for letting all that stuff happen. | |
| I mean, my brother was just a kid at the time, so I'm not I mean, he had some responsibility. | |
| I mean, he knew he was causing you pain. | |
| Sure. Okay. | |
| I mean, he wouldn't have any responsibility with regards to your parents, but he would with regards to you. | |
| Right. Okay. | |
| So, of the three people who did you the most harm as a child, you're still in contact with two. | |
| And you just cut the other one off a few months ago. | |
| Okay? So why were they in your life as an adult? | |
| I guess with your mom, it's some sentimentality. | |
| She gave you some money and some time and so on, right? | |
| That's a pretty cheap price to pay for honesty, right? | |
| What about your brother? | |
| I guess a similar answer, not financially, but sentimentality. | |
| means my brother. | |
| Um... um, Um, he does, uh, these, these days he does, uh, like if I called him up and ask, cause I did this once about my relationship and he gave me some. | |
| Uh, good advice, but that I accepted as good advice. | |
| I mean, I don't know if you want to get into what that was about, but if you just want to accept that it was good advice, I think, um, like out of all my family members, I think that was the most wise thing I'd ever actually heard. | |
| In terms of helping me with my life, and it came from my brother, not my parents, but yeah. | |
| And when did you call him up for this advice? | |
| Six or seven months ago, I want to say. | |
| Okay, so this was like almost a decade into your pretty terrible relationship with the mother of your children. | |
| Right. Yeah, that's a little bit like too late, right? | |
| Too little, too late, because it certainly didn't save your relationship, right? | |
| Right. Right. | |
| So you have a very... | |
| So philosophy is always trying to extend your time preferences, right? | |
| So you think of yourself as happy in the future rather than the present, right? | |
| Right. Yeah, like your dentist says, I know you like candy bars, but they're bad for your teeth in the future, right? | |
| And then if you've got to get a tooth drilled, you're like, damn it, I shouldn't have eaten those candy bars, or whatever, right? | |
| So you seem to have a very short time preference, right? | |
| I want to flirt with girls. | |
| Okay, I'll go do that. | |
| Is that going to screw up my relationship with the mother of my children? | |
| Yes, but I'm going to do that in the moment, right? | |
| And I want to hit my kids. | |
| It's going to make me feel better in the moment. | |
| Is that going to screw up my relationship with them in the long run? | |
| Yeah, probably, right? | |
| And you didn't really think about the moral qualities of the mother of your children when you got together. | |
| You just found her pretty and sexy, right? | |
| Yeah. So, I guess you have a very sort of short time horizon. | |
| For happiness, right? | |
| And that generally means that you couldn't plan anything as a child. | |
| You couldn't rely on people. | |
| There was no point deferring gratification, right? | |
| Because, I mean, when I left England, my brother and I, we got 36 or 38 pounds, which was a fortune back then. | |
| And we knew it was two for one Canadian dollar. | |
| So we each thought we'd get 38 dollars, right? | |
| And so we saved, we saved, because people gave us money to go to the new world, whatever it is, right? | |
| So we saved. | |
| And then my mother just took the money and said, well, you can have it back if and when you need it, right? | |
| So then there was no point saving. | |
| Couldn't plan, right? | |
| Right? So, I mean, nobody puts the money in a bank if the bank's about to get robbed, right? | |
| Right. So, could you plan as a child and rely upon the future? | |
| No, Steph, and I think it's relevant to bring up again. | |
| Not again, but like I've mentioned it obviously in the past. | |
| My dad was in the military, so we moved around a lot. | |
| So that's actually directly relatable in that sense, because I literally couldn't really plan. | |
| I didn't know where I would be going, you know, next year per se. | |
| Well, there's no point in making friends if you're going to move, right? | |
| Exactly. So you couldn't really plan. | |
| And if your father was moody, then you couldn't plan. | |
| You know, consistency and predictability in relationships is the essence of pair bonding. | |
| You can't pair bond with someone who's chaotic. | |
| And you can't pair bond with people who've got very short time preferences and kind of hedonistic, right? | |
| Because they'll just do whatever they want in the moment to make themselves feel better, right? | |
| So this is why I say it's very painful for children to not be able to plan, because that's what we do as kids, is we try to plan, because we're trying to grow and lengthen our time preferences, because the longer The time preference you have, the more humanity you have. | |
| Right. So, it's very painful to not be able to plan. | |
| It's very painful to get together with someone. | |
| This is the essence, I think, of your relationship with the mother of your children. | |
| You don't know if it's going to be good, is it going to be bad. | |
| If it was just consistently bad, you never would have gotten together. | |
| If it was consistently good, you wouldn't break up. | |
| But it's good and bad, right? | |
| It's up, it's down, right? | |
| That's the perfect way to put it, yeah. | |
| So that unpredictability is why you can't pair bond. | |
| Now, where do you get predictability from? | |
| Well, you get predictability from the deferral of gratification according to moral principles. | |
| Right? You can't predict your weight next year if you just eat whatever you want, right? | |
| Right. Whatever you feel like. | |
| You can't predict your muscle mass next year if you just exercise whenever you truly feel like it. | |
| And you have no discipline, right? | |
| Right. Now, of course, discipline got a pretty bad rap with you as a kid because your father was in the army and therefore was supposed to be a super disciplined guy, right? | |
| Right. But he couldn't even control his own bullying and his own aggression. | |
| So for you, discipline has a bad name. | |
| My father's very disciplined. | |
| He gets up, he irons his uniform, he goes wherever they tell him to, he does, you know, he's got a lot of discipline. | |
| But, you know, he He yells at me and is scary and aggressive and he can't control his own temper, right? | |
| So discipline's kind of got a bad rap for you, right? | |
| What's the point of discipline? | |
| Discipline turns me into my father! | |
| But no, a lack of disciplines kind of turned you into this, like, aggressive hippie, right? | |
| So what is your relationship with self-discipline? | |
| Like, I know we got only a little bit of time left so we'll have to hit the gas, but What is your relationship with self-discipline? | |
| Like, when you say to yourself, look, I gotta uninstall all these apps, and I gotta think about the future of my family, and I've gotta stop being so hedonistic and just going after pleasure. | |
| What is your relationship to imposing discipline upon yourself? | |
| Right. So relating to, you know, the cheating part, let's say, Obviously not there. | |
| In terms of self-discipline, I think I would give myself a lot of excuses. | |
| I guess the big one with the cheating would be, I'm not actually cheating. | |
| I won't get caught. | |
| I have to do it or else I'm going to go crazy because I'm not getting any sex with my partner. | |
| And I need to feel like... | |
| Anyway, excuses basically, right? | |
| Okay, so you exercise self-discipline. | |
| What emotion comes up? | |
| Like basically I'm doing something I don't want to do for a benefit down the road kind of thing. | |
| Yeah. Okay. | |
| Well, like you brought up before about your when you work out, you know, you do it in the moment. | |
| You don't want to do it necessarily, but I don't I don't I don't put enough weight, I guess, on the what's gonna happen if I don't do it kind of thing. | |
| Like, oh, the short term, it's gonna suck, and the long term, you know, maybe I'll get a benefit, but let's just focus on the short term. | |
| Right. So what happens if you impose self-discipline? | |
| I do something I don't want to do. | |
| No, but what happens, and I understand the definition, but what happens to you emotionally? | |
| See you next week. | |
| Bye. Bye. | |
| Thank you. | |
| I don't want to say just sadness, but... | |
| Yeah, no, sadness. | |
| I think sadness. | |
| Okay. What's wrong with sadness, if that's the first thing that comes to mind? | |
| I was trying to be a bit more specific. | |
| I mean, I'm not like... | |
| No, I said what's happened to you emotionally. | |
| That's your first direct answer in the whole conversation about what happens to you emotionally is sadness. | |
| Okay. Okay, so why are you sad if you impose self-discipline? | |
| Because I'm using the time I have right now to do something I don't want to instead of doing something that I want to do. | |
| No, I understand that. | |
| But why is that sad? | |
| Why is that sad? | |
| Why is that sad? | |
| I'm trying not to say like because I wouldn't be happy because obviously that's the same thing, but... | |
| Okay, I'll tell you because I mean this is a tough one, right? | |
| So the reason that you would be sad if you imposed self-discipline is you realize that your father and mother and brother could have done that too. | |
| Right. Because you view them as sort of chaotic forces of nature. | |
| And you tried to sell this a little bit to me, like things happened, you know, as opposed to you made a choice, right? | |
| So, your father chose to be aggressive with you. | |
| Your brother chose, to a large degree, to teach you, right? | |
| And your mother chose to be aggressive, right? | |
| Now, if you impose self-discipline, you break the excuses you have for everyone who mistreated you as a kid. | |
| Which is why self-discipline is very painful. | |
| Like, honestly, I mean, I enjoy my daughter's company and we have, I think, a pretty great relationship. | |
| And realizing how easy that is, like, just be nice to your kids, don't hit them, right? | |
| Don't yell at them, don't call them names, don't hit them. | |
| It's actually pretty easy. | |
| Parenting is actually pretty easy and it's a lot of fun. | |
| You know, I remember when I was a kid, you know, I lived in these paper-thin apartment buildings and paper-thin walls and You know, people screaming at each other. | |
| It was like a circle of hell back then. | |
| It was the 70s. | |
| There was all kinds of shit going on. | |
| And I was like, what the hell? | |
| Why is everyone yelling? | |
| Just be nice. | |
| It's so easy. | |
| Just be nice, right? | |
| And, you know, my wife and I have been married 23 or 22 years and we get along and love each other's company and all of that. | |
| And it's actually pretty nice and easy, right? | |
| So the real effort is a lack of self-discipline, right? | |
| That's really, really hard, right? | |
| I mean, you suffer now or you suffer later, right? | |
| If you don't have the self-discipline of eating well and exercising, Then you get the discipline of being fat, diabetic, and with bad joints, and short lifespan, or whatever, right? | |
| Goes on and goes on because of that, right? | |
| It's painful to quit smoking, but if you don't quit smoking, you get the pain of sickness, right? | |
| Or death. | |
| So, once you realize that some basic self-discipline is actually not that hard, and the benefits are so great, right? | |
| That it's really sad to look at all the people Who didn't exercise that self-discipline when it actually was kind of easy to do. | |
| And of course people lack self-discipline and this is why I'm sort of talking about your bond with your kids. | |
| People don't exercise self-discipline out of a lack of love. | |
| A love for their future selves, love for those who depend on them, especially children, right? | |
| Right. So if you actually just exercise self-discipline, i.e. | |
| don't hit your kids, you'd burst into tears because you'd realize that people around you when you were growing up were just fucking lazy. | |
| Just lazy, fucking lazy, lazy, lazy. | |
| Self-indulgent, right? | |
| Yeah. That's why it's so sad, is it was all so unnecessary. | |
| All of that sorrow, all of that pain, all of that teasing, it was all so unnecessary. | |
| Yeah. And pointless and useless, and it wasn't even that hard. | |
| It's not even that hard. | |
| It's really not that hard to not yell at your kids. | |
| It's really not. | |
| It's really not that hard. | |
| It's really not that hard to be nice to your spouse. | |
| In fact, it's great. | |
| It's great. | |
| It's just such a better life. | |
| And the sort of self-indulgence of these hedonistic people who just follow their every whim, while often lecturing others on discipline, it's just so pathetic. | |
| It's so, it's so, it's like happiness and love and contentment and predictability and consistency and virtue were so close, but people just decided to be lazy and make bad decisions and fucked everything up. | |
| Yeah. And I mean, I obviously have continued that and it's only now that I'm really starting to, I know that, I know we were talking about that. | |
| I've been listening to you for, for multiple years and I'm not going to excuse that I didn't seek out more before, but I, I am in it now. | |
| I mean, I've, I've just finally realized that like, what the hell am I doing with my life? | |
| And not just that, what am I doing to my kids' lives? | |
| That's the most important thing to me now, is just them. | |
| Because I've already made my mistakes. | |
| Obviously, I'm not an old man. | |
| It's like I'm at the end of my life. | |
| But I've made fundamental mistakes that I can't come back from. | |
| I'll never find a quality woman. | |
| I mean, I have three kids with an ex that's whatever. | |
| So these things are set in stone for me, but they don't have to be for my kids. | |
| That's my mindset. | |
| Well, you'd be surprised as a relatively young man how much you can change. | |
| But it's gonna be suffering to change for sure. | |
| Have you done any talk therapy at all? | |
| Yeah, so I've heard you mention that you did that before. | |
| What do you mean by talk therapy? | |
| You've been part of these groups like SAA and so on, right? | |
| Yeah. I mean sort of one-on-one talk therapy with a skilled therapist who knows how to help unpack some of the childhood stuff and give you more scope for free will. | |
| Um, I haven't actually recently my, uh, somewhat related, but we did have a therapist, me and my ex, we were doing couples therapy. | |
| Um, and then she said, she called that off with the whole breakup, but we were doing that. | |
| And I was, we were starting to get a little bit into talking about me and then. | |
| Yeah, I mean, you're going to spend money either way. | |
| Uh, I would probably, I would recommend, uh, that you and your girlfriend, that you spend money on talk therapy rather than lawyers. | |
| Like, individual, not couples, right? | |
| But individual talk therapy, like, she pays, you pay, or you pay for both if you're the primary earner. | |
| If you spend money, I mean, I'm just, it's my particular advice, I'm no expert on this, but I think if you, the more money you spend on therapy, the less you need to spend on lawyers. | |
| Because she's with you for a reason as well, right? | |
| She chose you and all of that for a reason as well, that has to do with her childhood and so on, and of course, if she wants to call in to hear, to me, she's certainly more than welcome, but No, I think spending money on therapy to deal with this childhood stuff and to help process some of the maybe some of the shame and guilt that you have over, you know, we've all made mistakes, right? | |
| So I'm not trying to cast you to the outer darkness here like I'm sort of perfect person or something like that. | |
| So we've all made mistakes, but it can take a little while and it can take help to process how that's affected our conscience and things like that. | |
| Yeah, no, it's going to be a separate thing moving forward. | |
| I mean, I think after like Eight breakups and trying to make things work. | |
| I think it's. | |
| I think at this point, it's really tip the scale of what's better for the children. | |
| And realistically, I don't think any amount of time. | |
| I mean, I've talked to her, for example, you said if she wants to call on to you and I've recommended it to her and she's against you, she doesn't like you. | |
| But now has she ever listened to your stuff? | |
| Probably not. | |
| She said she's looking at you. | |
| You've not you've not you've not done a great job of selling philosophy to her. | |
| Cause like, Hey, I'm really into philosophy. | |
| I like this guy. | |
| And then, you know, this is kind of how you behave. | |
| Right. Then you're like the fat guy waving around my diet book. | |
| Right. Uh, that's, that's true. | |
| And I apologize for that. | |
| I apologize. | |
| Sorry. Go ahead. | |
| Right. I haven't told anybody else about you, so I haven't slandered your name in that, in that way, but, um, uh, but, um, yeah, but I, I definitely will look into it. | |
| Um, yeah. | |
| I have been thinking about it, it's just, I know everybody does this, but I think about it financially, like, oh, you know, it's gonna be... | |
| The best money I ever spent, honestly. | |
| Yeah. I mean, best money I've ever spent. | |
| So, I'm a huge fan of it, and you can look back, I've got a show, I think it's 1927, you just look for How to Find a Great Therapist, I've got a whole show on how to do that, and it is a, it's a very good, because, you know, it's better to spend money on therapy than combative lawyers, right? Absolutely. | |
| That makes total sense. | |
| Okay. That's great. | |
| All right. | |
| I know we've got a hard stop because you've got some clients coming up, but I certainly wish you the best. | |
| I appreciate your directness and honesty in this call, and I hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going forward. | |
| For sure. | |
| I will do that, Steph. | |
| Thank you so much. | |
| I appreciate it, man. | |
| Take care. | |
| You too. |
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