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Feb. 7, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:25:34
Welcome to the Wages of SIN! Freedomain Livestream
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Time Text
One o'clock on the 6th of February, 2025. Got a little bit of time today.
Wanted to check in with ye olde community, see how everyone's doing.
If you have any questions or comments, issues, challenges, problems, criticisms, you name it, I am all ears like a donkey listening for a train on the train tracks.
So if you want to I'm happy to listen.
Overjoyed to listen.
You can just do that raise hand thing.
And, uh, yes, it looks like we have someone.
Mr. V, you had something that you wanted to say.
Just remember to unmute yourself.
Hello, Seth.
Hey, how's it going?
I'm good.
Um, so my question, uh, is, um...
Do you think parents that are hedonistic also inflict hedonism as a means to control or curse their children?
The reason is the pursuit of pleasure means...
Well, that's the question.
Well, I like that you started getting into a definition for a second there.
Do you want to tell me more about what you mean by hedonism?
Right.
let's see sorry I'm just I had read this over but I'm just a bit nervous so Sorry.
Just one more second.
Well, you don't have to look it up.
Just tell me what you mean by hedonism.
I mean, I get it's a general pursuit of pleasure, but I mean, so philosophy and morality's goal is happiness.
So what do you mean by hedonism?
I was emphasizing both with hedonism, the pleasure and the pain aspect.
So the parents, you know, since they have so much control over their children, define what is pleasurable and what is also painful, and therefore they have a control mechanism to both reward them and punish them.
And if they're more on the hedonistic and then abusive side of things, then they can really torture the child as much as they want.
Could you give me a sort of real-world example of what it is that you mean?
I always like to get it out of abstracts into the empirical.
So what do you mean, like any example of what might happen with a parent and a child in that way?
Well, I'll bring it to the personal of my own life, with my father.
I'm slowly trying to understand what my father would do to me.
And so, for example, I was really into...
Into like space and astronomy.
And my father would always put me down on that.
And then he was really into like the whole alien.
I still call it a conspiracy because there's really not much evidence.
But I haven't done too much research.
So maybe there is.
I haven't seen it.
I haven't really bothered to look at it.
So he's like, oh yeah, plus NASA's fake anyways.
And so he would, it was like, he's like, I'll reward you for liking space, but it has to be this kind.
It has to be about aliens and such.
But not about, like, stars and astronomy and, you know, like, what SpaceX is doing.
Like, I found that quite amazing.
And I still follow what SpaceX is doing and such.
Is that a good example?
Okay, so he would get mad at you for being interested in astronomy, but he himself would have these conspiracy theories about, like, the moon landing was faked and NASA was not real and that kind of stuff.
Essentially, yeah.
And he would mock and belittle me for that.
So what would he say about your interest regarding astronomy?
Well, it wasn't specifically astronomy.
It was more so like I would talk about the space telescopes because at the time, it was pre-James Webb.
It was in Hubble.
There was another space telescope.
It was launched by the Europeans.
And I was talking about that.
He was belittling me about that.
We were driving and he's just like, well, you don't even know if NASA's telling you the truth about that.
And so he was essentially trying to shut me up about it instead of just saying, you know, Veda, I'm not interested in this subject.
I'll just be frank with you.
And he's been frank with me before.
And so that was kind of the unusual aspect of that conversation.
So he would just say he's not interested in this topic of the European telescope.
Is that right?
He should have done that, but he didn't.
He decided to just belittle and mock me for being interested in, so to speak, mainstream stuff.
Right.
Okay.
I think I understand.
And if you can give me one more example, that would be helpful.
All right.
Let's see.
I think this is an example.
My father used to get very angry at me.
And I didn't really understand why until one day there was this incident where my stepmother severely damaged the car.
And I found out why my father got so angry.
I mean, he was essentially kind of transferring his anger to, like, projecting his anger to me.
I always just kind of took it, and I think the reason why I just accepted that aspect of a relationship goes back to that hedonistic thing where my father defined pain.
He says, you have to accept this pain of mine, and I think that's a good second example.
Okay, so he got mad at you for something that wasn't important because he was mad at his wife for damaging the car?
Well, he...
From what I can recollect, it was more so like he was really angry and he needed to vent it towards someone.
And so I was working at the time, he totally blew up on me about something else.
And so I just want to clarify that detail.
Okay, got it, got it.
So tell me about, I don't disagree with you about any of this, but tell me how this is a manifestation of hedonism for you.
Well, for me, I have a problem with hedonism, and so I feel like this is kind of the, like my parents trying to curse me with it, but like, I feel a lot of pain, so I compensate it with pleasure, and I think that answers your question, does it?
Okay, so the definition of hedonism, if I'm understanding what you're saying, and correct me if I'm astray, of course, right?
But your definition of hedonism is doing something which is pleasurable in the short run, but costly in the long run.
Yes, I wonder if this bit of modification would be also the avoidance of pain.
Maybe I'm being nitpicking, I'm not sure.
Okay, but it is pleasurable.
To avoid pain.
I don't want to sort of subsume the two into the same continuum, but it is pleasurable to avoid pain.
So a hedonism might be something like, I'm nervous of going to the dentist, so I'll avoid going to the dentist because that's unpleasant for me in the short run, but in the long run, that's going to cause me to have cavities and gum recession or whatever might be happening.
So hedonism then would be, Avoiding discomfort in the short run and causing discomfort in the long run.
Does that make sense?
Yes, it does.
Or if somebody's like, they eat because they're anxious and the only way that they can, or the way they choose to deal with their anxiety is to eat a lot of sort of salty, sugary, fatty foods and then they gain weight and then they're anxious about their weight.
And therefore they eat more.
Like, there's a lot of that kind of stuff that happens.
So that would be another potential example of hedonism, is that right?
Yeah.
And so for your father, he's angry at his wife for damaging the car, but he's more scared of his wife than he is of his child, because he has more power over his child than he has over his wife.
And therefore what he does...
Is he yells at his child to discharge his negative feelings by lying about what he's upset about.
And this relieves his sense of frustration and helplessness in the short run, but in the long run, of course, it damages his relationship with his child.
Is it something like that?
That's correct.
And I would add another aspect to it, if I may, which is he'll reveal to me...
What has angered him later on?
And so then I get the opportunity to connect the dots, kind of like breadcrumbing.
And that's what kind of makes it even more awful.
He's making me aware of it.
Or at least I feel like it's awful.
Maybe it's not, but that's kind of how I know this information.
It's because later on he reveals, oh, can you believe what my wife did?
Blah, blah, blah.
And then I'm like, oh, well, when did that happen?
He gives me a time step, and then I put the two things together.
I said, oh, okay, so that's why he blew up on me.
Right.
Now, how old were you when this happened?
Oh, that example specifically, I was actually maybe 19 at the time.
Okay.
Now, if you were to say to your father, let's say you figured it out at the time.
If you were to say to your father, like, come on, Dad, you're not mad at me.
You're mad at Mom damaging the car.
Like, go talk to her.
What would he say?
He would just walk away.
That's what normally he does, is he'll, like, attack me and then just kind of leap.
So I wouldn't really get the opportunity, but if I did, I think he would just be like, either he would...
Doing a non-apology, or he would, what else would he do?
Oh, he would minimize it.
He was like, oh, you know, like, don't you see, like, I don't have a lot of money.
This car got damaged.
It's going to cost me.
Because it was a bad, it was a bad, she badly damaged the, the Dory looked ugly.
She's like, when am I going to pay for this?
I'm working so much.
So he would just minimize what he did to me.
Oh, so if you said, Dad, you're not mad at me, you're mad at your wife, he wouldn't escalate with you, he would just complain more about his wife?
Yes.
Okay, so if you were to say, Dad, you're mad at your wife, let's bring her in the room and you guys can have it out.
Let's not pretend this is about me.
And then you'd go to get your mom or your stepmom, what would he say?
I think he would start to get visibly angry and...
And, like, yeah, he would get very agitated, I think.
Okay, and so would he be angry at you?
I mean, I was scared of her, too.
Yeah, I think he would get more angry at me, but I wouldn't do that because I was also a bit scared of her, too.
So, I wouldn't go that far.
I'm not saying whether you would or wouldn't.
I'm just curious how that would play out.
Oh, okay.
I understand.
I believe she...
Sorry, go ahead.
Sorry, you go, Steph.
Go ahead.
Oh, I was just going to say that if I had done what you said where I'm like, let's go get my stepmom, I think he would really get angry at me.
Like I said, agitated.
It would be a slow escalation because my father is very smart about that.
He knows if you go too intense, too fast, you can be blamed for that later on.
For some reason, in his mind, there's no excuse about that.
It's, yeah.
Okay, and what would you say your general level of enthusiasm is in your life?
Excitement, enthusiasm?
Right now?
Yeah.
Right now, it's like 200%.
But in the past, it was really like I was enthusiastic.
I think I was depressed.
What are you most enthusiastic about in your life now?
Well, to name one of the big things, I'm going to pursue a career that I'm interested in.
Right now, I need to.
And I have a decent basic income, so I'm going to go to vocational school.
I think I'm going to do something in regards to coding.
I'm not sure of the specifics.
In regards to what?
Coding.
Coding, okay.
And I want that to eventually lead to engineering.
Maybe aerospace engineer, but I'm not sure.
But that's the long and short.
And that's why I'm enthusiastic, because I've been making a bunch of tangible steps.
I asked a family member of mine for some money to help me out with that, and they agreed.
I also have been helping out that same family member with many things they needed to get done in their house, and so that's been great.
We're getting a new washer and dryer, and we've needed that for a long time.
That's why I'm very enthusiastic.
I'm 29 years old.
29. Now, just out of curiosity, we've talked before, have we?
Yes.
So, when you hear yourself back, do you feel that you sound enthusiastic in your communication style?
No.
No, I don't.
And what do you experience when you hear yourself back?
I hear more like monotones and maybe...
I think I hear like a mild sense of exhaustion.
That's what I think I hear.
Right.
I mean, I think that's probably quite accurate.
And I say this with all kinds of sympathy.
No, thank you for your honesty.
Yeah, so...
Let me ask you this.
This sounds like it's direct to you.
It's not.
It's just an abstract principle when people as a whole can chime in.
Are slaves allowed to be enthusiastic and excited?
No.
No.
Well, why not?
Maybe add a jealousy?
Like the master doesn't like seeing his own slaves having a better time than he does?
That's kind of psychological.
Because the slave is a political relationship, right?
Like you are owned by another human being.
So let's not go psychological.
Let's talk about the practicalities of owning human beings.
Okay, who do you think...
I'm not sure.
Sorry, who have you met in your life or seen on TV that you would consider a great leader?
I mean, I think Donald Trump is becoming a great leader.
Can we use him as an example?
Sure, that's totally fine.
Now, is Donald Trump enthusiastic?
I think so, but I think in particular he seems passionate.
Yeah, he's passionate for sure.
And he has a calling, right?
He feels that his life was spared by God during the repeat assassination attempts in order for him to lead America to a golden age.
Right.
Would you say that Elon Musk is enthusiastic and passionate?
Yes, absolutely.
Very much so, right?
Very much so.
So, the slave is not allowed to be enthusiastic because enthusiasm is an aspect of leadership.
And slaves are not allowed to be leaders.
Right, right.
Slaves can't have leaders because if slave has leaders, there's someone to lead them out of slavery.
Right.
So, When you speak in a relatively energyless monotone, you are still communicating in the mindset of somebody who's been kind of beaten down.
That would be accurate, yeah.
So, what do you think, or what do you feel, if you were given the challenge to be robustly enthusiastic for a week?
That you would, like, jump it up and down, you'd be excited about things, you'd bubble over, you'd, you know, babble if you had to, but your enthusiasms.
What do you think that would feel like for you if you manifested that enthusiasm socially, professionally, for a week?
Uh, well, I'm...
I'm so sorry.
You said that so eloquently, but it just kind of escaped me.
Would you mind repeating?
How would you feel if you took on the challenge to communicate with enthusiasm and passion for a week?
I find that initially I feel terrified to do that, in particular to be rejected, but I'm willing.
I'm willing to do that.
Okay, so tell me about your feelings of rejection.
My feelings of rejection.
When it comes to, because currently I still live with family members from my family of origin, and so with them, I feel as though, I guess I feel as though...
I know there's going to be excess hostility, or I'm not out of hostility, passive aggression.
And so I feel like when it comes to them, there's kind of a give and take where it's like, I can't be too enthusiastic or they're just going to start making my life more difficult.
But excluding them, I guess what comes to mind is school, like more middle school.
In elementary school than high school, I got along with people not better in high school, but in middle school, in elementary school, I had a very tough time, in particular fourth and fifth grade.
So that's where I think the terrified feelings come from, because it's like, you know, sorry to ramble for a moment, but school is kind of, at least in my mind, in my life.
Because I didn't do too many extracurricular activities.
School was like my social life and it really went bad, especially when I was in fourth and fifth grade.
How much do you feel you communicated in that speech?
Oh, in terms of enthusiasm?
No, just in terms of answering the question.
Oh, um...
I asked what your feelings of fear would be, and you said that things went bad for you socially in the fourth and fifth grade.
you Right.
With all due respect, what the hell does that have to do with my question?
So who in your family of origin are you living with when you're pushing 30?
My grandmother and my mother's side, and my mother lives with her as well as my sister.
Okay.
So you're living with three.
Women, would you say that they're healthy and functional or not so much?
Not so much.
So you're living with three matriarchs or three dysfunctional females?
Yes.
And you're almost 30?
Yes.
So why are you doing that?
Because beforehand I was living with my father and so...
I moved out of that, and this was a better situation, and that's kind of one of the things I've been doing the last couple of weeks.
I've been reorganizing my finances so that I can move out as soon as possible, and so that's why I'm here now with the three matriarchs, because it was either that or homelessness, because at the time I didn't have a job.
I did have savings, but...
I didn't think my savings would last too long.
Well, sorry, but you've been an adult for close to 12 years.
And how many of those 12 years have you spent working?
Let's see.
Ten and a half.
Okay, so if you've worked for over a decade and you've lived with family members, in other words, they've been paying your rent, right?
That's correct.
So if you've been working for over a decade and your rent, and I assume a good portion of your food, has been paid for you, why don't you have it?
The food wasn't paid for me.
The food wasn't paid for you?
No, I paid for that.
And I wasn't paid that much by my father.
But you're asking about why I don't have savings.
Well, that's because the last year and a half I have been working and I've been using my savings.
You haven't been working for a year and a half.
Yes.
Okay.
So when I left my father's restaurant, I stopped working because I wanted to figure out why my 20s turned out the way that they did.
And so I took time off.
Okay.
And remind me if you're dating or love life situation.
I haven't dated since I was, I believe it was 22. So it's been a while.
Okay.
Got it.
So, have your grandmother and your mother and your sister, if I remember the tripod here, have they talked to you about your life and its direction or some of its stagnation or any of that?
Not at all.
They totally avoid that.
So they don't care?
Yes, that's correct.
Okay, got it.
Yes, indeed.
Alright, so you're surrounded by people who really don't give a shit about you.
Totally.
Yeah.
All right.
So I think I've gathered enough information because I want to make sure that I tailor my response to the question of hedonism to your situation in particular, because the closer I connect with you, in fact, generally, the closer I connect with the audience as a whole, if that makes sense.
It does to me.
And thank you.
So I'll tell you, everyone, everyone, you need to massage this into your fucking bone marrow.
If you get into philosophy, God help you.
If you get into philosophy, it's leadership or nothing.
Because you are now thinking for yourself.
And if you are thinking for yourself, it's be a leader or there's nothing for you.
Original thought from first principles is the foundation of leadership.
So, if you're in the Middle Ages, and you're interested in, say, religion and science, and you start really thinking about science, and you get into your Baconian first principles, and empiricism is the key, and rational consistency is the key, You can't be blindly religious anymore.
You've left that.
I mean, you can have some compatibility with religious folks, you can share some of the same morals, but you can't live in both worlds, opposing worlds, simultaneously.
So you can't be a scientist And a theologian with any real consistency.
Now, of course, I know the guy who runs the Genome Project and so on is very religious.
I get that.
And there's people who are very able to split themselves in two and take these opposing methodologies of faith and reason, of prayer and science, but rationally it cannot be reconciled.
So this is for everyone.
So you start to get into philosophy.
You start to reason from first principles.
You start to see through the lies, propaganda, bullshit and matrix of the world.
I mean, we can see this coming out of the USAID stuff right now.
Thousands of journalists all on the take from the centralized money-printing squid monsters of the state.
My God, America's even paying a significant portion of the budget of the publicly funded BBC. Politico.
All these subscriptions.
Eight million dollars, I've heard.
So, taxpayers are being charged to fund the hit pieces on the heroes trying to save them.
It's monstrous.
Oh.
Wow.
Monstrous.
So, you start thinking for yourself.
You start reasoning from first principles.
You can no longer be a follower and you can no longer be an NPC, which means it's leadership or nothing.
It's leadership or isolation.
Because if you start thinking for yourself, you can no longer fit into the NPC normie.
Barely there, fools of the general unthinking horde, which means you have to be a leader.
Now, being a leader is being enthusiastic.
You cannot lead if you're not enthusiastic.
There was an interview with It's an old interview with a guy, you know, obviously not the most moral man in the known universe, but obviously a very effective business leader and creator, Steve Jobs from Apple.
And when he was young, someone said, hey, what does it feel like to become rich?
And he says, you know, it's interesting.
He said, when I was 21, I was worth a million dollars.
When I was 22, I was worth 10 million dollars.
When I was 23 or 24, I was worth 100 million dollars.
And he said, it's interesting, but it's not about the money.
It's about...
Being able to create great products.
And for me, there's always been a very interesting story about a guy who was working on the Apple II. It's an old personal PC, somewhat at the level of the Atari or the Commodore 64. He was working on the Apple II and Steve Jobs wanted to come and work on the Lisa, the Mac, graphical interface.
And he comes over to this guy and says, Lease a project.
And the guy's like, well, I mean, I'm working on some disk boot-up sector work here, so, you know, I can finish this up in a couple of weeks.
And I'd be, you know, be happy to join you.
And Steve Jobs is like, no, no, I need you to come work on this new project.
And the guy's like, okay, well, at least give me a week or two to try and transfer my knowledge to someone else who can take over.
And Steve Jobs is like, I'm sorry, I'm not being clear.
And he reached over and he unplugged the guy's machine and he tucked it under his arm and he walked off.
And the guy just followed him.
And Steve said, I need you to work.
And he took the computer and he plugged it into the new lab where they were working on the GUI interfaces that evolved from the Lisa into the Mac.
Now that's a level of enthusiasm.
I need you on this project.
I'm going to unplug your computer and you're going to come with me.
Right, right.
If you look at Elon Musk, I mean, what he did with Twitter was absolutely extraordinary.
Cutting the workforce 80% earnings before interest taxes, depreciation and amortization, which is called EBITDA, went up like 48%.
It's absolutely astonishing.
If you look at, you know, people are mad because they're a bunch of young guns drilling through.
The turbo-opakeness of the USAID funding databases.
And these guys are all like 21, 22, 24. One of them was a guy who trained AI to decipher an ancient Roman scroll in his teens.
The average age!
The average age of the people who put the young men who put mankind on the moon was 27. 27.
Seven.
you Thank you.
The average age of the American revolutionaries was early 20s.
It is remarkable what young people, and in particular young men, can do.
The average age of the people working on the bomb, the Manhattan Project, was mid-20s.
So you are ruled by being punished for enthusiasm.
You know, I remember when I was really into sharks when I was younger, and I remember being in grade six, the guy was talking about sharks.
I had my hand up.
I really wanted to add a whole bunch of stuff.
I had my hand up until my arm ached.
Wasn't allowed to be enthusiastic.
You're not allowed to be table-thumping enthusiastic.
See, that's called cringe.
It's embarrassing.
You're wearing your heart on your sleeve.
Don't show people you care.
Keep it repressed.
Keep it down.
Keep it hidden.
And it is part of the general enslavement of the brilliant young minds of the world to make you embarrassed of enthusiasm.
Right?
So you were punished for being into astronomy.
Well, I remember being very much into astronomy.
I even bought a telescope with some of my meager income from being a newspaper delivery boy.
And I tracked the sunspots for a while.
Very interesting to me.
And nobody cared.
Nobody wants to know what you're enthusiastic about because they all are in there programming you.
To remain a big fucking slave.
Enthusiasm.
What do people do when you're enthusiastic?
What do they do?
They're cynical.
They roll their eyes.
They don't care.
You're embarrassing.
It's cringe.
Shut up.
Curl into a ball.
Murder your energy.
Be a fucking slave.
Yeah, excuses like that.
Yeah, it happens in school.
It happens in families.
It happens in social life.
And the one thing that I'm most proud of is guarding my capacity for enthusiasm despite endless, cold, hostile, rage-filled rejection of my enthusiasms.
And this is from when I was a...
A little kid.
I've been very enthusiastic about things, been very fired up about things, and you just face this endless, to me it's like mentally it's like this giant fucking combine harvester of guillotines.
They just want to slice down your enthusiasms and have you turn into one of these, you know, like in prison, right?
You just shuffle along, look at the ground, don't show any feeling.
Don't show any passion.
Don't show any enthusiasm.
Because whatever you care for, this is the basic equation of the world since its inception.
Whatever you care for will be used to fuck you up.
That's exactly what happened to me.
Yeah, whatever you want will be used against you.
Oh, do you care for your hamster?
Oh, I'm so sorry.
I accidentally killed your hamster.
Oh, do you care?
About this particular music?
Well, I'm just going to mock it.
Oh, are you enthusiastic about this particular topic?
I'm going to tell you it's useless and trash and garbage.
And the real answer is in wild conspiracy theories.
Whatever you care about will be used to fuck you up.
Whatever you're enthusiastic about will be the rope that is used for the noose to hang you high and dry.
And we have this with girls.
Oh, do you like this girl?
Well, we're going to tell her friends and they're all going to laugh at you.
Whatever you want will be used against you.
I mean, we saw this play out with my show.
What did I want most of all?
To have a giant conversation with the world about philosophy.
And I worked my fucking ass off to make that happen.
And then, because everybody knew who was in power, who had power over me, everybody knew how much I wanted to have a worldwide conversation about philosophy.
So what did they do?
Well, they took it away.
Because I had worn my heart on my sleeve about how passionate I was about reason, evidence, morality, and philosophy.
This is what I want the most.
This is what I'm most passionate about.
This is what I care about the most.
And because the various two-bit fucking sadists in the world saw and knew what I wanted, what I was most enthusiastic about, they took it away.
With a smirk, with a smile.
With joy, with happiness.
Castrate the enthusiastic.
Keep everyone a slave.
A vague depression.
That's the...
That's the deal.
Elon Musk openly states that human life needs to become interplanetary because civilization is hanging by a thread.
So he's quite enthusiastic about all of this.
When Trump was shot, he stood up with his fist clenched, blood pouring off his head.
Fight, fight, fight.
Enthusiasm.
Passion.
Wanting something.
So, now that you have stumbled into the most productive corner of philosophy in the world, you are going to have to conquer your fear of being enthusiastic.
I wanted to make my mark in academia.
People were angry and hated me for that.
I wanted to make my mark in the arts, in acting, in playwriting, in directing.
People got mad at me and hated me about that.
And novels, In the business world, I wanted greater integrity in the companies that I was working with, and people got pretty mad and upset about that.
And then I spent 15 years building up the world's greatest philosophy conversation, and people say, oh, is that what he cares about?
Well, we'll take that away too.
And it's a public humiliation ritual called...
Don't ever show people what you want.
Don't ever show people what you need.
Don't ever show people what you're really enthusiastic about.
Because that's like saying to the torturer, Jesus, it really hurts when you do that.
He's like, well, thank you for telling me.
Does more.
So this is my challenge.
Deep felt, deep seated, gauntlet down before all of us.
Can you get out into the world and be enthusiastic?
Now, it's one thing if you're able to make a lot of money for people, right?
So, you know, Steve Jobs made a lot of money for people, so his enthusiasts were economically productive.
So, you're allowed to have enthusiasm if you're making people money hand over fist.
But can you be out there in the world and Openly love and praise and worship something, philosophy, abstractions, principles, virtues, morals, communication, clarity.
Can you push through the scar tissue of being punished for your enthusiasms, for caring about things, because the various omnipresent blank-eyed sadists are always scanning for anyone who cares about anything and fucking them up based upon their preferences.
The tall poppy syndrome, it's the hammer that sticks up that gets nailed down.
Are you willing to be enthusiastic?
Are you willing to wear your heart on your sleeve and openly proclaim to a significantly sadistic world, here's how you can hurt me?
It happens in love.
It's a power play.
Often in the early dating game, or sometimes later on, sometimes even into marriage.
Who needs who more?
Well, if you really tell this woman how much you're devoted to her, she'll mock you, she'll take advantage of you.
She'll rob you blind, bleed you dry, laugh at you with her friends while you simp and buy her flowers and jewelry.
Oh.
Looks like that guy is really into me.
I guess I can take advantage of that.
And that is how your passion for another human being is threatened, robbed, and exploited.
So the way that you are kept from leadership is through hedonism.
It's through people saying to you, Well, I'm gonna make you hurt for being enthusiastic.
I'm gonna make it painful for you to be enthusiastic.
I'm gonna call you cringe and embarrassing for openly showing what matters to you and what you care about.
And that way, because you're...
You care, particularly if you care about philosophy, because you care.
See, society needs to isolate you.
And how do you get isolated if you're enthusiastic about philosophy?
Well, you can't join with the herd because you're thinking for yourself.
So the best way to keep you isolated and keep...
The glorious health of philosophy out of the virus and bacteria-ridden phlegm tube called the social throat is to make you uninspiring.
To make you unenviable.
To give you a life and an attitude That nobody is really drawn to.
And that's a challenge.
It's a big challenge.
If you're into philosophy, it's leadership or bust.
And if you're into philosophy, and you say, well, I'm pushing 30, I'm living with granny and mommy, and I'm broke, and I don't have a girl or prospects.
Well, you are saying to people, hey, look where philosophy gets you.
Look where philosophy gets you.
And I have always felt, this is just my particular feeling, I have always felt that if I'm going to promote philosophy, One of the things that I absolutely need to do is to have a life that other people might want.
And, I mean, I've been very joyfully married for pushing a quarter century, and my wife and I have been married for like over a hundred years.
In real time, because we spend most of our days with each other, right?
I work from home, she's at home, so we spend a lot of time with each other.
I have a great relationship with my wonderful daughter, and we've homeschooled her, so we've had a lot of time together.
I've achieved reasonable degrees of professional success with the inevitable blowback.
But I did my job, and that's what matters.
So, you have, like it or not, you have a responsibility to philosophy.
you Which means you've got to uncork your enthusiasm.
And use it in some sort of leadership capacity.
But the first thing you have to do is you have to build a life that people will want.
Everybody knows this, right?
If someone says, I have a diet and exercise regime that produces a fantastic physique, the first thing that people are going to do is not look at the diet and exercise regime, but they're going to look at You're a physique.
And if you're a fat slob, you are discrediting that diet and exercise routine.
And I know it's tough, man.
It is like carrying a candle through a fucking blizzard to hold on to your enthusiasm in this cruel world.
But what is the alternative?
To kind of talk in a monotone and not be very enthusiastic and not really have a life that anybody wants and, you know, try and hide.
And it's like, sorry, philosophy doesn't allow for that.
If you're thinking for yourself, you have a responsibility to philosophy, to the world, to the truth, to be enthusiastic.
I mean, my God, everybody knows the history of how I've sort of been kicked up and down the alleys of this world.
Bomb threats, death threats, personal threats, being hunted through the streets, threats, deplatforming.
Have I retained my enthusiasm?
I think so!
Have I retained a life, you know, there are some people, I guess in alternative media, who had documentarians follow them around.
Mike Cernovich was one, Lauren Southern was one, and so on, right?
And I think I got one offer for that, but nobody really wants to do it because I have a great life.
And I have a great life not because of philosophy, although that certainly is necessary, but not sufficient.
I have a great life because I won't let anyone Take away my enthusiasm.
Anyone!
At all!
That is mine!
Mine!
That is my fire!
My soul!
My life!
Nobody!
I don't care if you threaten.
I don't care if you warn.
I don't care if you take away my audience, my money.
I don't.
Care.
You will never take away my enthusiasm, because that is mine.
And I will not surrender that which is precious and great to that which is petty and vicious.
And that's your challenge, my friends.
That is your challenge.
Hold on to that flickering fire in a fucking blizzard and a windstorm.
Hold on to that flickering fire until you can puff and blow it into something visible from space.
Hold on to that enthusiasm.
Hold on to that excitement.
Hold on to that thrill of discovery and joy and reason.
And I get...
That the fission of my enthusiasm is scolding to people.
I get that.
I don't care.
I don't care.
I will not give it up.
I will not give it up, and I've made it to 58 years of age.
I'll be 59 this year.
Being kicked, rejected, ostracized, defamed, lied about, and threatened for decades.
Have I given up?
My enthusiasm.
No, that's why you're here.
If I was depressed and monotone and kind of given up, right, you'll be gone.
You come here, as I do to others, to warm your hands in the fires of my enthusiasm, of my passion.
And that's good.
We all need our recharges.
I mean, one of the things I really got from...
Reading about Ayn Rand's life was how, for the last, you know, 40 years of her life, she got the living shit kicked out of her enthusiasm.
I mean, there was a brutal review of Atlas Shrugged saying that you could almost hear her screaming to the gas chambers go.
And that really killed her enthusiasm.
I think that's a mistake.
People will apply negative pressure to your enthusiasm.
Come home, jump up and down, be excited about something and take a look in the eyes of the people around you.
Have a look.
Look deep into the eyes of the people around you when you're really fired up and enthusiastic about something.
I love this.
I'm so pumped.
I'm thrilled.
I'm excited.
I can't wait to...
Look around.
Look!
Absorb!
What's happening in the eyes of the people around you?
Are they thrilled and excited that you're thrilled and excited?
Or are they cautious and hesitant and dead-eyed and vampiric?
Well, you know, you've got to be careful because, you know, caution.
You've got to be so careful.
I mean, I remember I had a fairly prominent intellectual, as I had from time to time, call me up when I was talking about various controversial subjects.
He's like, well, you've got to be so careful about these things.
It's like, well, I'm very careful to be accurate.
Beyond that, I don't give a shit.
But you've got to think about the ramifications, and you've got to care about this, and you've got to care about that, and what if people misinterpret?
It's like, my job is to tell the truth.
I'm not going to hedge and censor myself because people might misinterpret basic facts.
That's to mean that I have, as a fairly raging intellect, I have, as the limit to what I can do, the willed ignorance of volitional fools.
You've got to be so careful.
No, I really don't.
Okay, well, if you're not careful, you'll get punished.
Okay, so I get punished.
But I won't punish myself by taking away my enthusiasm.
So you can try this.
Try this.
Honestly, try this.
I recommend this to everyone because I get to listen to this by just listening back to myself.
But try this.
Seriously.
Think about the thing you're the most enthusiastic about.
Bring up a little recording app on your phone.
Think about the thing you're most enthusiastic about and then try explaining it, imagining that you're explaining it to someone, why you care about it, why you're so passionate about it, why it matters so much to you.
Record that little speech, then play it back.
How do you sound?
Are you animated?
Are you enthusiastic?
Are you communicating clearly how passionate you are about what you care about?
Or are you like, yeah, you know, this thing is really, you know, I really care about this thing.
It's really positive to me and I just can't wait to, like, are you...
Do you have slave voice?
I'm not talking about the caller earlier.
I'm just talking in general.
Do you have slave voice?
See, slave voice is when you cannot be enthusiastic.
Slave voice is...
Hold yourself down.
Hold yourself back.
Constantly tap down.
Don't let it show.
Don't let anyone see the furnace fire of your deepest passions.
Hold yourself back.
Hold yourself down.
Don't let rip.
Don't be spontaneous.
Don't be passionate.
Don't be enthusiastic.
Don't be angry.
Don't be outraged.
Because every enthusiasm has a dark side, and that's necessary.
You can't find a fire if it's not surrounded by darkness.
And everything you care about has implicit within it anger at what you care about being suppressed.
I care about philosophy, which means I'm angry at people who suppress philosophy.
I'm enthusiastic about rational civil discourse, which means censorship and deplatforming Arouses great anger within me.
So, with all enthusiasms, you know, if you care about people not dying of lung cancer, you're probably not big fans of cigarette companies.
Every enthusiasm comes embedded within it, an anger at the opposite.
If you're a fan, Of rational, self-critical, empirical exploration of the world, the universe, and ideas, then people who just land on conspiracy theories and won't accept counter-criticisms are not your friends.
I'm not saying that every counter-cultural idea is a, quote, conspiracy theory.
Of course, that's just a cheap label.
But if you're interested in rational critical thinking, and then what people do is jump straight into a brain dead, the conclusion is the addiction conspiracy theories, then they are your enemies.
To have enthusiasms is to have enemies, which is the enemies not just of your specific enthusiasm, but of enthusiasm in general.
Now, when was the last time you saw a movie, I'm not watching a lot of movies these days.
I just can't stand them.
They're just too vile and programming-based.
But when was the last time you saw a movie aimed at young people without a dissociated, perhaps, weed-based, cynical main character?
Somebody who had real enthusiasm for A very positive and passionate cause, not for like, I don't know, social justice or equality or other synonyms for brutal totalitarian communism, doesn't exist.
The young people, it's all like the super bad, right?
McLovin, you sound like an Irish soul singer.
Like the big deal, what they really passionately care about is getting booze and getting stoned and getting laid.
Programming young people to rank a hedonism.
A hedonism is to say, I take pleasure only in the pursuit of pleasure or the avoidance of pain as like an animal.
And I don't care about principles.
I don't care about principles.
I don't care about morals.
Don't care about abstractions.
But you understand, most people wretch up their souls long before they die.
Most people die in their early to mid-twenties, but have to wait sixty years to get buried.
And you die when you give up your enthusiasms.
And I don't mean your enthusiasm is like some secret thing in your head and your heart.
But when you act and manifest on your enthusiasms, do you have a dream project?
Do you have a dream business?
I've always wanted to make this, that, or the other.
Okay?
Are you willing to be enthusiastic about it?
Are you willing to care about it?
I built entire companies because I was very passionate.
About the potential of computers to keep the world unpolluted, to keep people safe.
I did environmental health and safety stuff.
I was very passionate about that.
Drew other people into my passion.
But to be passionate, you have to build a life that people want.
If you come up with some great diet and exercise regime, you need to apply it to yourself.
for at least a year or two before you go public, because you need to get your abs and your V shoulders, narrow waist, whatever it is you're looking for, you need to get all of that.
And what you need to not do is go out into the world without enthusiasm.
Thank you.
Ah, but enthusiasm puts a mark on me.
It's like a laser tag that allows the satellites to nuke me from orbit.
Yeah!
And that happens.
Yeah, absolutely.
That happens.
And you know what?
You just, you pick yourself up, you dust yourself off, and you march off with great enthusiasm to the next potential disaster.
And you will get lasered, you'll get nuked, people will roll their eyes, they will abandon you, they will betray you, they will undermine you, they will sabotage you, backstab you, unless they can profit from you, which is not the most common effect of enthusiasm.
And that will happen, absolutely.
And you will get betrayed and fucked over, and people will use your enthusiasms against you.
And you'll lose sometimes.
You'll lose a lot.
I know I have.
And then you just get up and you...
You just start again.
But you never ever surrender your passions and your enthusiasms to the cynicism and sabotage of the dead-eyed mob.
What a ridiculous loss that is.
You give up your enthusiasms for the sake of...
Reducing your punishment from the dead-eyed soulless mob, they don't get to be more enthusiastic.
You just lose your light.
That's all that happens.
You just lose your light.
Doesn't work.
Doesn't save anyone.
Doesn't solve anything.
You just expire on the vine and you join the zombie horde and the world is minus one.
Fiery, positive soul.
Try this.
Try this.
Try being out in the world and say, you know what?
Today I'm going to be enthusiastic.
Shit, start off small.
I don't care.
Maybe there's some coffee place that makes a great coffee.
Have you ever said to them, this is fantastic coffee.
I got to tell you, this, I don't know what ambrosia you're putting in here, but it is a nectar of the gods.
Something.
I mean, you get a great product online.
Can you say, man, this is fantastic.
This is like incredible.
This is the greatest thing.
Can you be enthusiastic?
Try it.
Scan the people around you.
How do they respond to enthusiasm?
My marriage was built on enthusiasm.
I met my wife the same day I got my first novel published.
She said, how was your day?
I said, it was incredible.
I've been writing for like 20 years.
I finally got a book published.
It's the best day ever.
And she totally warmed up to that.
And we've been madly enthusiastic with each other for almost a quarter century.
Every day with her is a privilege.
Because you understand, if you give up enthusiasm, you give up love.
Love is just another form of enthusiasm.
If you can't be enthusiastic about your goals and ideas and what you're passionate about, how the hell can you be enthusiastic about someone else?
Enthusiasm is pair bonding, Enthusiasm is love.
It is attachment.
Enthusiasm is integrity.
Because if you're hedonistic and you work on the pain principle, then people will just apply pain to you.
Until they kill your enthusiasm.
But integrity is having an allegiance to your own enthusiasms and not letting other people take them away.
Because eventually, foundationally and fundamentally, it comes down to your choice.
Your choice alone.
Are you going to let people take away that which you're enthusiastic and passionate about?
Are you going to join the general shuffling along the sidewalk, staring at the ground, slope-shouldered, prisoner, slave walk?
Or are you going to have the fiery passions of a free soul?
So I think that's what you're going to have to work at and focus on, my friends.
Because all this shit that you hoard, I mean, I have been severely fucked up in life by being enthusiastic.
I don't care.
I don't fundamentally care about it.
Because the shame, the shame in that is on the people who attack the enthusiastic, not on the people who have enthusiasm.
That's their shame.
And I don't take guilt for things that I haven't done, right?
That would be ridiculous.
So the shame is on those who attack passions.
Because passions attack hierarchy.
I mean, most of what goes on in the modern world is a humiliation ritual of having to repeat bullshit.
Ah, this person thinks that they are a unicorn.
Well, you have to agree or we will attack you.
It's a humiliation ritual to get you to repeat falsehoods enthusiastically.
It is a mark of territorial conquering.
It is a mark of being owned.
It is like a dog peeing in a region to mark its territory.
you If I can get you to enthusiastically bleat what you do not believe and which cannot be true, I own you.
And the only way to fight that kind of ownership, It's with an enthusiasm for the truth.
Fuck the liars and the manipulators.
They pass through history like shit through a pipe.
Both with some fiery sense of integrity and enthusiasm.
You liberate others with your own enthusiasm, right?
You liberate others with your enthusiasm.
And if you want to free people, forwarding them the latest doge achievements is fine, I guess.
But what you really need to do is be enthusiastic.
All right.
Thank you for those comments.
I hope that that helps.
And I'm happy to take another question.
I have another call in in a little while, but not for a little, little, little bit.
So if you have any other questions or comments, I'm certainly happy to chat.
Hey, see, yeah, if you just want to unmute yourself, I'm enthusiastic to take your questions.
Thank you, Steph.
How are you today?
I'm not too bad.
How are you doing?
I'm doing pretty well.
I have a question about UPP. Yes, sir.
How does UPP get an odd from an is?
I know you answered this before, but I'd like to ask again.
How does UPP get to how one should behave in the absence of a deity?
We have some questions about this in the telegram chat.
Right.
Okay, so very briefly, the is-ought dichotomy was brought about by the philosopher David Hume, a Scottish cynic, and he said, you cannot get an ought from an is.
And this was in direct repudiation to religion, which says that God creates the oughts in his commandments, and therefore...
The fact that the universe is means it was created by God.
God is all good, therefore we have to do what God wants, and the is and the ought are simultaneous because of God's existence.
So, the argument would be, if I push a rock and it lands on your car, I'm responsible for the damage.
I have to fix your car.
If a rock just dislodges on its own, then it's just an accident and nobody has to pay.
Well, I guess you have to pay.
But nobody's causal to it.
So, if God has consciously created the universe and God is all good, then you get virtue from the nature of the existence of the universe.
God, in a sense, has pushed the rock and therefore the ought comes out of that.
So, with regards to UPB, I accept the Humean distinction that you cannot get an ought from an is.
And, again, it's one of these things that seems remarkable to me that people don't see this.
But when you say you cannot get an ought from an is, that's an ought statement.
You ought not get an ought from an is, because there is no ought in the is.
Okay, so that's an ought statement.
I mean, tell me if I need to explain that more, or if you accept that.
No, I accept that.
I know you answered this before.
But compared to something like, well, you ought to behave like this, or you go to hell, how does UPB make behavior preferable in the absence of divine punishment?
How does UPB make behavior preferable in the absence of divine punishment?
Okay.
Interesting.
I think I follow what it is that you're saying.
Of course, I know that these things are fraught with misinterpretations, so if I go astray from your particular thoughts, please let me know how I can do better.
But that's the general issue.
So, how does UPB make behavior preferable in the absence of divine punishment?
Is that your question?
Yes, as well as I can phrase it, it's actually not my question personally.
Yeah, no, no, I saw that floating around.
I saw those questions floating around.
I was hoping that the guy who objected would call in, but unfortunately the UPB critics are very tough and very assertive online, but they never actually want to call in.
They're just fear uncertainty in FUD, right?
Fear uncertainty in doubt.
Because to me, the question is not phrased well, and I'm not accusing you of that, but it's not a very clear question.
So, UPB doesn't make behavior good or bad, right or wrong.
It simply says that morality is defined as universally preferable behavior.
And so, if you want to claim a moral rule, then Your moral rule has to be universal.
It has to be based upon behavior, because we cannot pierce the veil of thought.
And it has to be something that is preferred versus not preferred, because that which is moral is generally considered better than that which is immoral.
So, if you're going to say that something is a moral rule, then it has to be universal.
It can't be...
Specific to one particular location or one particular race or a gender or anything like that.
It has to be universal.
It has to be based upon behavior because there's no such thing as thought crimes.
And that's because it has to be empirical and testable and thoughts can't be empirically tested or even perceived because you have to rely upon the person telling you their thoughts.
So, if you're going to claim that there's such a thing as morality, Then what you claim has to be universal, it has to be behavior, and it has to be preferable.
Now, I'm not saying do you agree with that as a final proof, but do you agree with everything I've said so far?
Yes, I do.
Okay.
Now, then some people will say, but Steph, you can't get an ought from an is.
Therefore, UPP is false.
Okay?
So they're saying, I'm saying UPP is preferable to superstition, mysticism, and nihilism.
I'm saying that UPP is universal, it's based upon behavior, and it's preferable.
And they're saying, but Steph, it is bad and wrong For you to say things that are false, to get an ought from an is, and to talk about it, because clearly if I hadn't talked about it or written about it, they'd have nothing to criticize.
So they're saying, it is bad and wrong for you to promote UPB, and I would say, well, why not?
You say, well, because it's false.
Okay, so what that person is saying is that being accurate, truthful, And consistent is better than being inaccurate, false, and inconsistent, because that person is correcting me.
So somebody who says there's no such thing as morality is saying it's bad to say things that are false, right?
It's kind of funny, right?
It is literally a kind of comedy.
How dare you lie and say that there's such a thing as morality?
Because lying is really bad.
It's like, you know you just made a moral rule called tell the truth, right?
So you cannot, you cannot criticize UPB without using UPB. Steph, you can't get an ought from an is.
Therefore, UPB is false.
Therefore, you should stop advocating it.
Because it's bad to say things that are false.
Okay, so is it universally preferable behavior to say things that are true and consistent or false and inconsistent?
Well, it's UPB to say things that are true and consistent.
Okay, so that's my entire point.
You cannot attack UPB without utilizing UPB. It's like trying to take a picture of a camera with a camera in order to say the cameras don't exist.
It's self-detonating, foundationally.
UPB is wrong, and therefore you should stop advocating for it.
Okay, so it's universally preferable behavior to not advocate for universally preferable behavior.
Like, it's a kind of joke.
It's not a serious criticism.
Because it is deploying UPB... To try and take down the concept of UPB. You, Steph, you should not say things that are false because there's no such thing as moral standards.
Of course, if there's no such thing as moral standards, why should I not say things that are false?
If we look in the realm of aesthetics, we each understand that we can have a preferred color and it does not contradict each other.
If I, like, Blue, and you like red, am I going to tell you that you're wrong?
No.
So, there is no universally preferable color.
Now, if we were to talk about wavelength, that would be a different matter, right?
Red and blue have different wavelengths.
So, if you were to try and make an objective statement, then you're talking about physical properties.
It's a different matter.
So, if my preference for UPB, and there's no such thing as morals, my preference for UPB would then be like my preference for blue.
Now, if you don't like UPB, in other words, your preference is not blue but red, why on earth would you tell me I'm wrong?
If I say I like blue and you say you like red, would you ever come to me and say, Steph, you're absolutely wrong about liking blue.
Because you can't get an ought from an is, and you should absolutely stop advocating or telling anyone that you like blue.
No.
They move UPB from the category of subjective preferences into the universal good.
The universal good being, you must not advocate for things that are false.
You cannot get an ought from an is.
Therefore, it is wrong to get an ought from an is.
Okay, you just got an ought from an is, which is you ought not get an ought from an is, and an ought not is just as powerful as an ought.
It's just a flip side of the same coin.
So when people say UPP is false, it's wrong, Steph should stop advocating for it, it's a con, it's a joke.
It's people who are manipulative, and in fact, If you want to understand the emotions behind it, because it's so flagrantly anti-rational, they can only have psychological motives.
The reason why people don't like UPB is that UPB is the moral and philosophical codification of the conscience.
It's the moral codification, the philosophical codification of the instinctual moral sense in the mind, Called the conscience.
So, when people get mad at UPB, they're not getting mad at UPB because then they would notice the rank contradiction of telling me that there's no such thing as morality and I should not say things that are false, which is a complete contradiction.
It's their own relationship with their own conscience.
Listen, man.
There's a lot of people in the world who've done some really, really, really bad stuff.
A lot of people in the world, they've done some really bad stuff.
They've pushed and promoted propaganda.
They have attacked the enthusiastic.
They have lied consistently.
They have falsified their way into sexual relationships.
They have cheated.
They have stolen.
They may have raped.
They may have even worse crimes on their conscience.
And so when they come across a proof, a universal proof of morality, why would they get so skeevy and manipulative?
You can't get an ought from an is.
You just did.
Try again.
No, you don't understand, right?
Why would they get so mad?
Well, because UPB, as a theory, is giving strength to their conscience, which they have repressed.
I can't even imagine, maybe I'll read David Hume's biography at some point, but I can't even imagine what David Hume did, that he felt it so absolutely necessary to come up with a piece of self-contradictory garbage, like you cannot get an ought from an is.
You just did!
So now that we accept that, let's just keep working on the oughts.
So, does that help?
Is there anything else that I can do to clarify that?
No, not really.
I just think it's a bit of a waste that the guy doesn't ask these questions himself.
It's a perfect opportunity right here, and apparently he's not enthusiastic enough.
Yeah, I mean, honestly, I've been doing this for decades at this point.
It's inevitable that the people who come on the strongest online I never show up to the actual conversation.
It's kind of inevitable.
All right.
Thank you for the question.
Any other last comments or questions or criticisms or issues that we can get into before I get me a little lunch and then do a call in?
Yes, sorry.
I heard a bellow there from someone.
Hello.
Hello, Stefan.
Do you hear me?
Yes, sir.
Hi, Stefan.
My name is Vitek.
I'm really happy to...
I can talk with you.
I have a question.
I know you don't do politics anymore, but I would like to ask a question, because in the current situation, what do you think, how long we have before we see really radical changes within society and we actually see the fall?
Okay, tell me what you mean and where, because Western civilization, sorry, okay, so we need to do this thing where when I'm talking, you don't talk.
I appreciate your enthusiasm, I really do, but it's really annoying, right?
So I'm trying to ask a clarifying question, and you immediately start over-talking me.
Can we just have that civil distance where when I'm talking, you don't talk, and I'll try to do the same thing?
Yes.
Okay.
So, where in the West are you talking about?
Because America's on a very different and opposing trajectory as of early January than, say, Europe or Canada.
So, where is it that you're talking about when you talk about the fall?
And help me understand what it is you mean by the fall.
I just want to make sure that we're talking about the same things.
So, sorry, go ahead.
I'm talking about Europe, Western Europe, and, well...
Eastern Europe as well, because I don't think Eastern Europe is learning from the mistakes of the West.
And...
Oh, I'm nervous now.
I'm really sorry.
No, that's fine.
So you're talking about...
Let's talk about Western Europe for the moment.
And what do you mean by the four?
I mean like...
Deterioration of governments, countries.
I mean, we can see it in the real time, obviously.
But I'm talking about central banks falling.
I'm talking about basic, modern times, basic services falling.
I'm talking about You know, okay, I'm living in UK, but I am not from UK. I moved to UK in 2006. My life changed.
United Kingdom.
No, you said Calais or UK? Sorry, I wasn't sure.
UK. UK. So you moved to the UK, okay, in 2017, did you say?
2006. 2006, sorry.
Okay, go ahead.
I am...
My life has changed since then a lot, and my relationships fall, break, and I'm thinking about what time...
Oh, that's stupid.
I'm sorry, Stef.
I will disconnect myself because I'm wasting your time.
I'm sorry.
All right.
Okay.
All right.
Anybody else with any other questions or comments?
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