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Jan. 22, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:52:49

In Which a Crime Gets Solved! Freedomain Call In

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	I'm not sure what to turn or what to do.
	It feels like every day my marriage is inching closer to its end.
	My wife and I have been married for seven years.
	We have three children, a five-year-old girl, an 18-month-old girl, and a six-month-old boy.
	At various times over the past couple of years, my wife has told me that she does not feel like I love her in the same way that she loves me.
	According to her, she gives her requisite 50% of love and effort in the marriage, and I'm only bringing 30%.
	During the course of our various fights, she will tell me that I am not the same man that she married, that I am the cause of the problems in our marriage, and that her options are either divorce or suicide.
	She has brought up that binary choice on numerous occasions.
	For my part, I strongly believe that I am a loving husband and father, and I feel that my wife and I have an exceptional bond and a strong foundational friendship.
	However, I will admit that sometimes I do not treat my wife in ways that meet her standards.
	My shortcomings notwithstanding, I believe that there is significant stress in my wife's life and trauma in her past, that she is not fully reconciled, and I don't know how best to help my wife heal from or at least manage these issues.
	I want nothing more than to make my marriage work, but we keep running up against the same brick wall, and at this point, I am struggling to see a way through it.
	So that's pretty much the rundown.
	In addition to that, I just want to start by sharing with you my concern that my complaints or my issues, whatever I'll talk about today, don't actually rise to the level of needing to call you and talk about it.
	Because my childhood and my whole life in general has been Comfortable, happy, healthy.
	I've always been well taken care of.
	There's not been any significant trauma in my life.
	You listen to some of the other call-in shows that you've done, and these people have just been put through the ringer.
	It just feels a little bit silly to me to be complaining, even though I do have these issues, of course.
	Sorry, which issues?
	That makes sense.
	Just the marital issues and the stuff that I'm going through right now, which is, you know, comparatively minor, like I wasn't abused or anything like that, but it's something that I feel like I need to talk through with somebody, you know?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, if I understand this correctly, your theory is that you ended up with a semi-suicidal mother for your children, but you had no particular dysfunction in your past?
	Not in my past, no.
	That's correct.
	Okay, so I'm obviously, I'm a little surprised, but it's your life.
	I'm not going to tell you what you feel or believe to be false.
	So tell me a little bit about your childhood and also about your wife's childhood a little bit.
	Sure, yeah.
	So I grew up in a family of six, my mom and dad.
	Older sister.
	I have a twin brother and a younger sister that came along nine years after I was born.
	Just for context, I'm early 30s right now.
	Like I said, I really have no complaints about my childhood in general as far as my needs being met and my emotional needs being tended to.
	It came out later on in my life, like in my mid-20s, that my parents' relationship was not as good as I thought it was.
	They seemed to get by, but realizing, looking back on it, they did not have the best relationship.
	They actually got divorced in 2018. It dropped a bomb on our whole family, and we still haven't quite recovered from it.
	Sorry, and why did they get divorced?
	Yes, mid to late 20s.
	That's kind of a complicated question.
	If you ask my mom, who kind of instigated the whole thing, instigated, I should say initiated.
	She says that my dad abused her, not so much physically, but maybe emotionally.
	Sorry, what do you mean by maybe emotionally?
	I'm not sure what that, not physically, but maybe emotionally?
	I mean, what does that mean?
	I'm not sure if I follow.
	Sure, yeah, I appreciate the request for clarification.
	She was never super specific.
	About the ways in which he abused her, but she did tell us that, and by us I mean the kids, she told us that he was extremely manipulative,
	that he, and I apologize for not being super clear on these aspects, but She claims that he manipulated her and to what end?
	I'm not sure because it seems to me like all he ever really wanted to do was work.
	I mean, he would be out.
	We have a machine shop in our backyard and he would spend all hours of the night working in that and just never really having a relationship with my mom.
	She claims that he...
	Forced himself on her sexually at various times.
	I'm sorry, what now?
	Sorry, hang on.
	Yes.
	He raped her?
	I suppose that's the only thing that you could possibly gather from that, yes.
	I'm sorry, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth.
	I mean, but if he forced himself sexually on her, then he raped her, didn't he?
	I mean, I'm not trying to, you know, draw unfair conclusions here, I just...
	Of course.
	Yes, of course, yeah.
	Because that was my question when you said, well, he abused her, and it's like, well, it wasn't physical, not really verbal so much, and I'm like, well, then sexual, and I guess that's the case.
	So she claims that your father raped her multiple times, or on multiple occasions?
	I would have to assume so.
	No, no, please God, this is so foggy.
	What did your mother say?
	It is foggy.
	Again, she was never super specific about it with any of us kids.
	Okay, so, bro.
	I feel like I've just been led further and further into the fog here.
	I don't know what super specific means.
	I know what specific means.
	I don't know what super specific means.
	So, just give me the rough gist of what she said.
	Did she say, well, your father forced himself on me sexually, and that's all she said?
	Yes, that is all she said.
	I didn't ask for any of the details for obvious reasons, maybe.
	I just wasn't really comfortable getting into that, because I always had a good relationship with my dad.
	We always got along really well.
	He took really good care of us.
	Okay, so I'm sure that I'm not trying to pick at wounds here, or certainly not trying to create the wounds, but you said he was kind of a workaholic, right?
	Absolutely.
	So, did he not spend as much time with you?
	I mean, obviously, he wouldn't have spent as much time with you as he would have if he hadn't been a workaholic, right?
	That is true.
	Okay, so, what sort of time, like, how much time would you have with your dad on any given week, say?
	Direct, one-on-one time, it was maybe...
	You know, to be honest with you, it was not a whole lot.
	It was maybe five or six hours.
	He's playing, I don't know, Monopoly with the kids or hide-and-go-seek or teaching you how to use the machines.
	It doesn't have to be just one-on-one time, but, you know, quality time with your dad, where it's just you and him or you and him and your siblings, and he's focused, he's connected, he's interested, he's curious, that kind of stuff.
	Sure, sure, yeah.
	Yeah, I remember going on outings with him.
	He would take my brother and I out into the desert to go camping every once in a while.
	And yeah, he would show us how to run the machines and all that good stuff.
	Okay, so roughly a week?
	I know it's hard to remember, but just bullpark?
	Sure.
	Yeah, maybe five or six hours a week on aggregate.
	And that's not one-on-one, that's you, one-on-one plus with siblings, right?
	Yeah, yeah, I would say that.
	Okay.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	You were going to say something else?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, we can dig into this as much or as little as you want, but I do feel like I had a solid relationship with my dad.
	I don't want to...
	I don't want to give the idea that there was any kind of issues there.
	You know what I'm saying?
	I'm not quite sure what you're saying.
	And I'm sorry if I'm out of the loop.
	We're just getting to know each other.
	Of course.
	You say, I had a solid relationship with my dad.
	I don't have any issues with my dad.
	But according to my mother, my dad raped my mother.
	Correct.
	Does that not seem a bit odd?
	Hearing it sort of repeated back this way?
	Yes, sir.
	Yes, it does.
	My dad's a great guy and, according to my mother, a rapist.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, there certainly is some distance there.
	Well, I mean, do you think it's true?
	I mean, we don't know, right?
	It's a he said, she said, I'm sure.
	Unless your mother was like, I don't know, black and bruised and had a rape kid at the hospital or something.
	So, do you think that it's true what your mother is saying?
	I don't.
	The only basis that I can come up with for how that may be construed as true is they maybe never had the best sexual relationship and the times that my dad maybe initiated sexual engagement.
	Yes, thank you.
	She maybe perceived that as him forcing himself on her.
	And again, I wish I knew more.
	No, no, come on.
	It's like saying I'd like to have sex is not forcing yourself on anyone, so it can't be that.
	Right.
	And again, I... Did she maybe feel pressured or half-bullied or cajoled or nagged or something where she didn't feel that it was as voluntary as it should have been?
	That's definitely possible.
	She's...
	Yeah, I do know that on multiple occasions and to multiple degrees, she has claimed that he was inappropriate with her sexually.
	Again, all the exact details of that, I'm not sure of.
	Well, you keep saying super specific, exact details, but it doesn't sound like you have any details at all.
	I'm not criticizing that.
	God knows we don't want that stuff in our head.
	But it's not when you say, well, I don't have exact details.
	You don't even have any details, as far as I can understand.
	That's true.
	That's true.
	Okay, so let's just be clear in the language, because here's the thing that's confusing to me, is if somebody says, I don't have exact details, then I assume they have details, just not exact details.
	If somebody says, I can't be super specific about this, then I assume they can be specific about it.
	In other words, they would know the day that it happened, not the hour and the minute.
	Okay, that makes sense.
	So, if you don't know, just say, I don't know, as opposed to, I don't have super specific or exact details, right?
	Because then, if you say, I don't have exact details, then I would like to know what details you do have, but then when I ask you what details you do have, you don't have any details at all, so it's just an efficiency thing.
	I understand.
	Thank you for straightening me up.
	No, no, no problem.
	No problem.
	I appreciate that.
	I mean, it's more to accommodate me and my obsession for facts.
	I understand.
	Okay, and did you have, looking back, sometimes we don't see these things when we're kids at the time, but looking back, do you see indications of issues in your parents' relationship?
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	I grew up thinking that my parents' relationship was An absolute model for me to follow.
	Perhaps that's because I didn't see how a good marriage ought to operate, but they never really interacted much.
	They'd maybe kiss each other when he was leaving for work, or they'd have a conversation with each other while we're all sitting down to dinner.
	But yeah, looking back, they never had any real quality one-on-one time.
	It was rare for them to go out on dates, just the two of them.
	Especially later on.
	As I've gotten married and as I've gotten older, I've realized that they absolutely did not model a very good marriage at all.
	Okay, so you didn't see the kind of affection that you think would be more appropriate to a lifelong loving marriage, right?
	It was a lack of positive affection, is that right?
	Yes, yeah, that's correct.
	So if good affection, I don't even know what perfect affection, but if good affection is a 10, where would your parents sit on that scale?
	Because they weren't hostile or fighting or screaming or hitting, so there wasn't negative as far as I can understand it, but it just wasn't as positive as you'd like?
	That's right.
	Okay, so on a 10, 10 being sort of, I don't know, my marriage or something, 10, where would you put your parents on that scale?
	Perhaps, perhaps a three is where I'm leaning.
	Okay, got it.
	But you didn't see hostility or a lot of conflict or yelling, name-calling or anything like that, is that right?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	And after, sorry, your youngest sibling is how much younger?
	Was it nine years?
	Did I have that right?
	Seven?
	Yeah, that's right.
	Nine years.
	Nine years.
	My brother and I have an older sister who is in her mid-30s.
	We're in our early 30s.
	And then our younger sister is nine years younger than us.
	So is it fair to say that the moment your youngest sister got close to adulthood, your mom got out?
	It's absolutely fair to say that, yes.
	And I'm not entirely certain that those two things are unrelated.
	Oh, I'm sure they're related, right?
	So did your mother ever say, That she wanted to leave earlier, but she wanted to wait for the kids to grow.
	How did you know, Steph?
	I'm not an expert on math, but I can do the finger stuff.
	Yeah, that's exactly right.
	And this didn't come out until later.
	I think probably around 2018 or so, it started trickling out.
	Yeah, you know, I've wanted to leave your dad for a long time.
	And here's how she put it.
	We're LDS, just for context.
	We always went to church.
	And she told us kids later on, you know, I prayed about leaving your dad when you guys were kids.
	But I was told, I was prompted to not leave your father at that time.
	Even though I wanted to, I didn't.
	And so I waited until you guys were adults.
	And did she give any indication of how early into the marriage she first wanted to leave?
	Oh, very, very early.
	Probably before my brother and I were born.
	But not before your eldest.
	Is that right?
	It's possible.
	So how long was she in the marriage?
	For like, my gosh, 25 years before she left?
	Yeah, they got married in 1987, so it was a good roughly 20 years, yeah.
	Wow, almost 30, right?
	Yeah, I guess so.
	87 to mid-20 teens, right?
	Right.
	Yeah, that's 30 years.
	Wow.
	Wow, that's rough, man.
	Yeah, it was.
	And like I said, we're all still kind of trying to deal with it.
	I'm actually the only one of...
	The older siblings who still talk to our mom, my twin brother and my older sister have both cut off all contact with her, which I don't fault them for that at all.
	We've all kind of made our decisions about how we're going about it.
	And that's not to say that I don't have a good relationship with my twin brother and my older sister.
	We get along great, but we've kind of made peace with the situation in our own ways.
	And why did they cut off contact with your mom?
	Did they not believe her?
	They did not believe her.
	And that's not to say that I believed her.
	I believe that a lot of the things that my mom said about my dad are untruthful.
	So do you think she's falsely accusing him of sexual assault or sexual aggression or rape?
	You think it's a false accusation?
	I do.
	I do, yes.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	Another accusation that my mom leveled against my dad that I also believe is false is that he...
	That he molested our younger sister.
	Oh my god.
	Now, you understand, this is one of the quickest falls from grace I've ever had in a call-in show.
	I had a great childhood!
	Asterisk.
	Well, there's a few details here.
	I suppose it depends on what you define as great, yeah.
	No, no it doesn't.
	Okay, so your mother, when did she accuse your father of molesting your sister?
	It depends on what you mean by accused, because as far as I know, she only ever told us kids.
	I don't think she ever took it to law enforcement or any kind of authority figure.
	I think it was just something that she told us.
	I guess to turn us against her because there was a lot of...
	Sorry, turn us against her.
	You're dead.
	Excuse me.
	Yes, thank you.
	Okay.
	Because like I said, she never elevated it to any place where it can actually be resolved legally or anything like that.
	Have you talked to your sister about this?
	My younger sister.
	Yeah.
	Not directly.
	Sorry, what do you mean not directly?
	I don't know what to say.
	Stop fogging me, bro!
	What does that mean, not directly?
	You smoke signals?
	What are we talking?
	No, I have not talked to her about it, no.
	Okay, have you talked about it with her indirectly?
	Not in any way whatsoever.
	Okay, so why would you say not directly when you just meant no?
	I suppose I... Maybe your dad is a little bit manipulative.
	And maybe you got some of that bug.
	It's because you feel bad about not talking to your sister and trying to verify this information, and so you're fogging me.
	Is that right?
	Probably is.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so when did you first find out about these accusations, or when did your mother first tell you that she thought your father had done this great evil?
	Hmm.
	It was all in the same time frame that she was telling us.
	Hey, yeah, I'm going to start divorcing your father and here's all the stuff that happened and here's how bad he was.
	So probably 2018, 2019. Okay, got it.
	All right.
	So she said that she believed that he had molested your sister.
	Is that right?
	That's right.
	And did she say why she felt that or thought that?
	She didn't give any proof or anything besides...
	Speculation, as far as I can tell.
	And you never questioned her further?
	Did you ever question your father and you didn't talk about it with your sister?
	Is that right?
	You didn't talk about it with anyone?
	That's right.
	Why not?
	I know that sounds really critical.
	I'm genuinely curious.
	I mean, I'm not like, well, why the hell not?
	I mean, I'm genuinely curious.
	That's such a jaw-droppingly, it's an accusation of such jaw-dropping evil, both of them are, right?
	That it would seem important to try and get more facts.
	That's true.
	I guess I didn't talk to any of the, either my younger sister or my dad or my mom about it.
	Maybe because I was afraid of what I'd find out.
	That it might be true.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	But why would you withhold comfort from it?
	You care about your sister, right?
	Yes.
	You have a good relationship with your sister, I think you said?
	Yes.
	Yeah, decent.
	We're at least on speaking terms, which is more than my other siblings can say.
	You mean with her?
	Hi, I am on speaking terms with my younger sister, correct?
	Sorry, you said, which is more than we can say for her other siblings, does that mean her other siblings don't talk to her?
	That is right.
	And the other siblings don't talk to her, is that because they feel or they believe that she made a false accusation against your father?
	No, it's not so much against our younger sister as it is against our mom, because our younger sister still lives with our mom.
	She's 23 now, and they're both living in the same house by themselves, and my younger sister has all kinds of issues that she's trying to deal with, and we can get into that.
	We just have to be rough sketches here, because she's not on the call, but in broad strokes, what are the sort of issues that your younger sister is dealing with at the age of 23?
	Yeah, ADHD, anxiety.
	Social development issues.
	She's still struggling to hold down a job.
	She still stresses out incredibly when she's driving, that sort of thing.
	And wouldn't those things, wouldn't those be symptoms of significant trauma to some degree?
	That is a very good point.
	Well, come on, this can't be something that you haven't thought about before.
	Perhaps thought about, maybe not so much acknowledged to myself directly.
	I mean, it seems odd to me that if the accusations from your mother are true, or if they're false, both are massively traumatic to your sister.
	Like, there's no way she's not going to suffer trauma.
	If she was molested by your father, which we don't know, but if she was molested by your father, then it would make sense that she would have some significant mental health challenges.
	And so y'all have just tossed her to the side as the victim.
	Yeah.
	That's cold, man.
	I'm trying to understand that.
	I'm not trying to make excuses for anyone's behavior, but...
	No, I'm just talking about your behavior.
	I mean, you never even asked her.
	Is it fair to say that it wasn't really my place to ask about something like that?
	I'm certainly happy to hear the argument.
	What do you mean by it's not your place?
	You're the older brother.
	Yeah.
	You're supposed to look out for your youngest.
	I mean, she's almost a decade younger than you.
	You're supposed to look out for her, right?
	Right, right.
	And she's struggling under some kind of immense burden, which your mother has talked about.
	So I'm not sure what you mean by your place.
	Right.
	And again, I know that sounds skeptical.
	Obviously, I'm...
	Eager to hear the case, but I'm not sure what you mean.
	Right.
	Yeah, I have a personal history of avoiding uncomfortable topics.
	I would just as soon ignore it and just kind of be the happy-go-lucky kind of kid that I always was.
	Oh, as you presented yourself to me at the beginning of this call.
	That's the guy.
	Yes, sir.
	Okay, so for how long have you known that you try to avoid difficult topics?
	I suppose it goes all the way back to maybe elementary school.
	I remember exactly when I remember school getting hard.
	Up until that point, which is maybe fifth grade, I didn't really have to focus or study.
	Everything came really easily to me.
	when it's a fifth grade was when I started learning the math and stuff that I actually had to had to study to learn and figure out and and I never I never was able to get out of that bubble of Yeah, school is hard.
	You have to study to figure this stuff out.
	From that point on, all the way through the end of high school, I completely skated by.
	I failed a lot of classes in high school.
	That was a struggle for me.
	To a certain extent, I think that my refusal to accept that...
	Doing good in school requires studying is, in some sense, a microcosm of me refusing to face down difficult subjects.
	Does that make any sense at all?
	Yeah, it makes sense to me.
	So you had that habit of avoiding challenges.
	You had that habit.
	But when were you aware that you had that habit?
	Perhaps.
	Not until quite recently.
	At least not acknowledging it enough to do anything about it.
	God, man.
	Is it like a year, five years, ten years?
	Just roughly.
	Where you said, hey, I have a bit of a habit of avoiding difficult things.
	Yeah, maybe five years.
	Five years.
	Okay.
	So, for five years, you've known you have a habit of avoiding difficult things.
	And what is the purpose of that knowledge?
	Why would you have that knowledge and how would that knowledge be valuable?
	To force me to confront...
	Yeah, to say I have this flaw or this weakness or this challenge or whatever you want to call it, where I avoid difficult subjects.
	So for five years, for half a decade, you've had an absolute responsibility to talk to your sister.
	Yeah.
	And you've failed to do that.
	Yes, I have.
	Okay.
	And your sister has, to some degree, been abandoned by your siblings, right?
	To some degree, yes.
	I mean, some of them don't even talk to her because she's still living at home or for some other reason, right?
	Right.
	It's nothing that my older siblings have against my younger sister.
	It's mostly due to the fact that my mom keeps our younger sister on a very short leash.
	I mean, we've suspected that our mother is in my sister's phone, and we've speculated that she sometimes texts us as our younger sister from her phone.
	Okay, so your mother is very unhinged regarding this, right?
	Is that right?
	Absolutely, yes.
	Okay, so your sister is being held semi-captive by a mentally ill woman.
	That's a fair assessment, yes.
	Okay.
	So what the fuck?
	What are you doing about it?
	Probably the same thing that I've done most of my life, which is just be content with the status quo.
	Okay.
	So...
	That's the case with all of your siblings, is that right?
	Nobody's sitting down and saying, listen, sis, what's going on?
	How can we help?
	Is it true?
	Did Dad molest you?
	Is anyone circling back to pick up the wounded?
	My older sister has done that to some extent.
	She's always tried to reach out to her and try to maintain a relationship.
	I actually was just talking to my sister about this a few days ago, and she shared a screenshot of a text message exchange that she had with our younger sister.
	And it was heated.
	My younger sister was swearing at my other sister, which is something that we were raised not to do.
	And it was quite shocking.
	Okay, so your oldest sister has stayed in contact with your youngest sister and has asked her and tried to help her, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so has your oldest sister asked your youngest sister if your father molested her?
	I don't know.
	I haven't even confronted that topic with my older sister, whether she's discussed it with her at all.
	Okay.
	I mean, you're on your phone, right?
	Yeah.
	Can you ask her?
	Yes, I am.
	Just text her and say, is it true?
	Mom's accusation is true, do you know?
	I mean, you don't have to, and you certainly don't have to do it for the sake of this call, but it's that easy, right?
	Yes, it is.
	And you haven't in your 30s.
	Thank you.
	Right.
	So you can understand why your youngest sister might be angry that everyone got out but her and nobody's coming back.
	And nobody's even discussing whether these appalling accusations by your mother are true.
	That's correct.
	Nobody even wants to know.
	Nobody's asking her.
	Everybody's avoiding the topic.
	And everyone's leaving her under the care, custody, and control of your mother, who sounds a little bit on the unstable and manipulative side as she's texting as her daughter.
	And, I mean, maybe the text messages that your eldest sister sent to you, the screenshots, maybe that's your mother!
	Right, exactly.
	There's no way to know.
	Well, there is a way to know.
	Have a conversation with your sister about something other than the weather!
	That is a great point.
	So, I said that if your father did or didn't, either way is traumatic, because if your father did, clearly that's traumatic and appalling and evil, if he did molester.
	If he didn't, then she was raised by a woman who would make that kind of accusation.
	Falsely.
	Which is also insane.
	And corrupt almost beyond words, right?
	So, you're...
	And this is true for you as well.
	Either you were raised by a man who did this, or you were raised by a woman who falsely accuses a man of doing this.
	Right.
	And that's the kind of dichotomy that we've all been kind of grappling with over the past few years.
	No, you have not been grappling with anything.
	You've all been studiously avoiding the living shit out of all of this.
	Sorry, I don't mean to swear.
	I apologize.
	I'll stop doing that.
	But you have avoided it like crazy, right?
	Yeah.
	There's no grappling.
	Grappling is dealing with the facts.
	You all have been avoiding the facts.
	Or at least people's witness.
	Right.
	Yeah, that's true.
	And there's no good answer that comes out of your sister for the family as a whole.
	I'm not blaming her, of course, but there's no good answer because if she says, yes, dad did this, that's pretty terrible because that also means then that she has been molested as a child and everyone's avoided asking her about it or giving her comfort while claiming to have a relationship with her, right?
	Number one.
	Number two, if she says it didn't happen, then You all have a pretty challenging relationship with your mother who made what would be, according to your sister, a false accusation of just about the most evil thing a man can do.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah.
	So, you all do follow the thou shalt not bear false witness, right?
	We do.
	Except you don't.
	Except we don't.
	Because you're not even trying to find out.
	Someone's lying, right?
	Someone's lying.
	Either your father's lying about denying it, your mother's lying about it happening, or if your sister told her and it didn't happen, then your sister is lying.
	If your sister told your mother and it did happen, then your father's lying about denying it, which I assume your father does.
	So somebody's lying here about really one of the most essential moral questions, which is the Thank you for bringing that up.
	How religious would you say your family is?
	I mean, would you say that you're very religious or medium religious?
	I would say that we're very religious.
	Very religious, okay.
	Of course, do you think that Jesus took the easy route?
	Not at all.
	Okay, so you worship a guy who was willing to be nailed to a cross on Calvary and die over the course of three days.
	I mean, even if you know you're coming back to life, that ain't a lot of fun, right?
	Yeah.
	A man who inquired of and told the truth at great, the greatest possible personal suffering.
	Isn't that the man God called Jesus?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And aren't you supposed to emulate that?
	I'm sorry, I'm not a theologian, neither am I a priest, but my understanding is you're supposed to be inspired by and emulate that.
	We are.
	You're absolutely correct.
	Yes.
	So, why would you not find out the truth?
	Say, well, it's difficult.
	Okay, then...
	If you say, well, I don't do things that are difficult, I don't know how you're a Christian, or LDS, or, like, I don't follow.
	No, that is a great point.
	I mean, if you say my, I'm sorry to trivialize it, but if you say, my hero is Arnold Schwarzenegger, all I want to do is be a bodybuilder, but I studiously avoid the gym.
	Right.
	I don't understand that something's not right, something's broken.
	That's a good analogy.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, definitely.
	Why is your...
	You can't speak for your whole family, but why are you?
	And I know this sounds...
	I'm genuinely curious.
	Of course.
	I find it a bit baffling, but again, that could be some factor I'm not aware of, but why have you spent at least the last half decade avoiding any knowledge of this most essential charge of evil and corruption within the but why have you spent at least the last half decade avoiding any knowledge of this most essential charge of Hmm...
	Thank you.
	I can't even come up with a semi-rational excuse.
	I'm not looking for an excuse.
	I'm not looking for rational, irrational, semi...
	I'm just asking the reason why.
	I mean, we don't behave randomly, right?
	right?
	There's always some thinking behind what we do, right or wrong, good or bad.
	Hmm.
	Hmm.
	Afraid to, afraid to upset the status quo.
	Okay, that's fine.
	First of all, your mother's already done that.
	What are the effects of this?
	You've prayed to God about this, is that right?
	You've prayed to God and said, what should I do regarding these accusations against my father, right?
	And what does God say?
	Whatever you do, don't inquire as to evil.
	Don't give comfort to the abused.
	That's not what God is saying, is he?
	No, not at all.
	Okay, so when you pray to God and say, what should I do regarding these two terrible accusations at the heart of my family?
	Right?
	That my father is a rapist and a pedophile.
	Right?
	What should I do regarding this?
	And what does God tell you to do?
	Yeah, he...
	He tells me to confront it and get to the bottom of it, which I haven't done.
	Okay, so for how long has God been telling you to kind of do the right thing?
	For how long has God been telling you this?
	I'm sorry, can you repeat that last line?
	For how long has God been telling you this?
	I assume you prayed about it when you first heard these accusations, which came out about the same time.
	So you prayed about it, and what did God tell you to do?
	Half a decade or so ago when your mother revealed these accusations.
	You know, Steph, I suppose I didn't really listen or I didn't ask properly.
	Well, hang on.
	Those are two different things.
	So, my understanding was, and forgive me if I misunderstood something, it's certainly easy to do, but I thought that you had prayed to God about these accusations and God had told you to get to the truth.
	I don't want to speak on behalf of God, but thou shalt not bear false witness means that if somebody is bearing false witness, the way that you follow that is to find out the truth.
	Because if your mother is telling the truth, then your father is bearing false witness.
	And if your mother is lying, then your mother is bearing false witness.
	And this is not like a little white lie.
	This is like, your father is about as evil a guy as can be conceived of.
	So, thou shalt not bear false witness means that you need to find out who's bearing false witness in this most essential charge of corruption and evil at the heart of your family.
	So, I'm not obviously going to speak on behalf of God, but my understanding of thou shalt not bear false witness is if somebody's bearing false witness, you've got to find out the truth.
	Or you condemn them to hell.
	Yeah.
	Because if your mother is lying about this, And she's broken one of the most essential commandments in one of the most foul ways imaginable.
	What does that do to her soul?
	Condemns it.
	Right.
	If your mother is telling the truth and your father is lying about this, what does that do to his soul to deny such a great evil?
	Right.
	Same thing.
	So, do you believe they have imperiled their souls?
	One of them, or maybe both, have they imperiled their souls by either their actions or their accusations?
	Yes, yes they have.
	And this is not coming as a big shock to you, is it?
	No.
	Okay.
	I will say, though, I've never thought of it in that kind of a...
	Well, my understanding is, and correct me if I made a mistake, or maybe you misspoke, That you prayed to God and God said, find the truth.
	Yes.
	So then you said, I either didn't take it seriously or I didn't ask in the right way.
	Now, asking in the right way is not what happened, because you did pray to God about what happened in your family and God said, get to the truth, which is exactly in line with the commandments and would make sense to me.
	I mean, if the devil intercepted, what would the devil tell you to do?
	Hmm.
	Probably the opposite thing.
	Exactly what you've been doing!
	Yes.
	Avoid, enable, ignore the victim, don't talk to anyone, pretend everything's fine, don't find out the truth, let everyone skate along, no consequences, let the evil flourish!
	Hmm.
	Make sure the evildoers never face any account or consequences for their evil.
	Isn't that how evil spreads and flourishes?
	It absolutely is.
	So, God himself...
	See, I mean, the funny thing is, is you're calling me, but God himself couldn't convince you.
	Right.
	To be perfectly honest with you, I did not anticipate getting so far into my side of the family's issues with my parents.
	This is all about your marriage.
	Yes.
	Everything we're talking about is about your marriage.
	I've not deviated from that as my principle.
	You know why this is all about your marriage?
	Well, one of the biggest complaints your wife has is she doesn't feel that you care about her, right?
	That's right.
	Do you care that much about your sister to find the truth?
	Do you care that much about your siblings to correct them?
	Do you care that much about your mother and your father to get to the truth?
	Or do you just skate along on the surface, never going deep, never connecting, never taking a stand, never fighting for what's right, and just spacing out?
	You really think you can treat your wife with more honesty and clarity and connection than you treat your entire family of origin?
	No, no, definitely not.
	So the price of avoiding your family is not connecting with your wife.
	How could you connect with your wife while skating around avoiding and spacing out regarding the most essential moral corruption within your family, which is either that your father is a pedophile and a rapist, or your mother is falsely accusing you of your father of being a pedophile and a rapist.
	Right, right.
	Can you connect with anyone?
	If you can't even take a stand on that.
	And I'm incredibly sorry that you've been handed these burdens.
	I just really want to express my sympathy for that.
	And the desire to avoid this ugliness is completely and totally understandable.
	Yeah.
	So I'm not in any way trying to condemn you or make you feel bad.
	And nobody should be handed these burdens.
	Nobody should be handed family situations like this.
	And you have my absolute deep sympathy for A, these burdens, and B, this avoidance.
	It's not like the moment I see something negative, I just stride on my armor and go in.
	We all have this tendency to avoid, and I understand that.
	But we need to be clear in what we're doing and not doing.
	Otherwise, we really can't change it.
	Because you're avoiding that you're avoiding.
	If you say, well, I know the right thing to do is...
	I've got to find out the truth about this.
	That's one option.
	Another option is just to walk away from the whole mess and say, it doesn't matter what the truth is.
	This place is so messed up.
	I can't have it infect my family.
	Yeah.
	Because, of course, can you even get to the truth?
	There's no big shining statue called the truth that we can just go up and map.
	There's no Google Maps.
	You can't put a drone back with a time machine.
	You don't know.
	he said she said um actually my sister just texted me back um i asked her what her read was on that uh the whole situation that the accusations okay um so i said to her are mom's accusations at all true regarding dad's molestation do you know anything more specific about that and she says i'm certain that they're not true i'm
	I asked her, her younger sister, directly when the accusations were first made.
	She said it was absolutely not true and she was shocked the accusations were made.
	Dad has never done anything even remotely questionable to me.
	There's no reason he would have been a safe person with me for 12 years and then decided to abuse me.
	Okay, if you can stand by the names, I would appreciate that, but go ahead.
	I apologize.
	No, no, don't worry about it.
	I'll get it after.
	Got it.
	I am fairly certain that the reason mom said that was to drive a wedge between dad and our younger sister because they have been so close.
	She knew if she accused him of that, he would keep his distance from her to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
	Then when our younger sister, unaware of why suddenly her dad doesn't want anything to do with her, mom framed it to her like he was a neglectful slash absent father.
	I think she also was just kind of throwing out accusations to see which ones would stick.
	She would change her reasons for why he's a bad guy depending on her audience.
	It's.
	Thank you.
	Wow.
	What do you think?
	I'm inclined to agree with my sister.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	Again, it's all hearsay.
	And what kind of concrete evidence can you have at this point of anything like that?
	But yes, I am inclined to agree with my sister.
	Well, if your younger sister denies it, well, I mean, there's philosophical truth, which is things you can prove syllogistically, and you can't prove this syllogistically.
	But if the victim of An accused crime says the crime never happened.
	I'm not sure, unless you're just going to make up some alternate universe where denials become proof.
	Yeah, that's true.
	In which case, your father...
	Well, and if your mother lied about this, maybe she lied about the assaults from your father.
	Right.
	Or it certainly would be not particularly credible, right?
	I mean, I'm just trying to think, I'm no lawyer, right?
	But the courtroom drama would be, the general principle is if you lie in one thing, you're assumed to be lying in everything.
	Hmm.
	Hmm, yeah.
	Right, so if your mother was in a trial, or someone like your mother was in a trial, and she made an accusation, and then it was proved that she'd made other false accusations in the past, The legal standard, again, I'm no lawyer, this is just my understanding of it from, like, stupid movies and stuff, right?
	But if you say, so-and-so committed a crime against me, and then it could be proven that you've made other false accusations about other people about crimes, then the witness would be, the case would be very hard to prove, to put it mildly.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	That's true.
	So, your father, Married a woman capable of this.
	Yeah.
	That's on him, right?
	It is.
	It is indeed on him.
	Yeah.
	So, let's get to your wife.
	How did you meet her, and how did the early courtship go, and so on?
	Yeah, so I met her on an app, actually.
	It was just kind of a silly game app, and you could message people on it.
	There was like the social aspect of it.
	And not to say that I was desperate.
	Well, okay, maybe I was a little bit desperate to find somebody to at least date or spend time with.
	And so I was just messaging a lot of the...
	Women around that I saw that were from...
	Okay, if we can stay out of places too, that would be excellent.
	Sorry about that.
	That's fine.
	So, is it not my understanding in the LDS, though, that they would encourage you to marry somebody else in the church?
	They do encourage you to marry inside the church, yes, which she was not of the LDS faith when I met her.
	Okay, so help me understand, if you've got a whole community that's trying to get you married to somebody in the church, and I assume there are eligible young ladies from...
	LDS around, then why did you not take that option?
	I'm not criticizing, I'm just curious.
	Right.
	I did.
	I tried.
	I tried.
	And it just didn't really work out that way.
	It just didn't happen.
	And I kind of gave up on trying for that specifically after a while.
	You know, right or wrong, that's what I ended up doing.
	Okay, so then, did you want to marry and raise your children outside the faith, or did you want to marry a woman and bring her into the faith?
	My preference would have been to marry inside the faith, raise the kids in the faith, which we're doing.
	My wife has since been baptized, and so we're all LDS now.
	Okay.
	Okay, so you met the girl who became your wife, the woman who became your wife, and how did things go at the beginning?
	I thought things went really well.
	I spent almost every free moment I could making my way 30 minutes from my house to Tara's to spend time with her and staying overlaid and taking her out.
	And that's the kind of thing that she references when she says she misses the old me, as she says.
	But yeah, we've done along great.
	We had a good friendship.
	We didn't have a whole lot in common in terms of...
	Musical interests or hobbies or that kind of thing.
	Was she a Christian non-LDS or agnostic or atheist or something else?
	Her family was ostensibly Christian.
	They never went to church for any significant length of time.
	They believed in the Bible and Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ and all that.
	There is at least something of a foundation there.
	Correct.
	But where's I going with that?
	Yeah, so Yeah, so...
	Are you there?
	Yes, sorry, you just said so, and I thought you were about to continue.
	Okay, yeah, sorry.
	I... Like I said, we got along really good, and it was the first time since...
	My brief high school girlfriend that I felt like I had a real connection with a woman.
	She was really easy to talk to.
	She was nice.
	She was pretty.
	And that's how it all started.
	Okay, and certainly the suicide threats are...
	Extremely alarming, right?
	Yes.
	So, when you first met her and were getting to know her, did you find anything out about her family history that, in hindsight, might have been a red flag?
	No, I did not.
	I did not.
	I ignored most of it, to be perfectly honest.
	Sorry, that's why I'm saying in hindsight.
	so in hindsight what did you ignore well there have been there's a lot of a lot of discord in the members of her family and There's probably one or two other married couples on her side of the family that have not been divorced at least one time.
	She, my wife, was abused by her stepdad, which I was aware of.
	Sorry, what do you mean by that?
	Well, specifically, there were times when my wife was maybe 14 or 15 where she would be on the couch watching baseball or whatever, and my stepdad would be there as well.
	Hands would just creep up towards her chest area, or when he would give her a hug, his hand would reach around too far and touch her chest area.
	And it was obviously intentional, because as my wife puts it, if somebody came into the room, he would quickly kind of withdraw, you know?
	Wow, that's terrifying.
	It's terrifying to live in the house, because of course, if it didn't go further than that, it's not like you know that at the time, right?
	Exactly, exactly.
	So it seemed like she was managing that okay, but the other aspect of that situation is when she told her mom about it, which is her biological mom, she confronted him about it.
	And so my wife's mother and my wife both sat down with her stepdad to confront him about that situation.
	And he denied it up and down, and he apologized if there was any kind of misinterpretation of anything, and that was the end of it.
	As far as my wife's mother was concerned, she basically did not believe that this happened to her.
	So she thought that something happened, but it was innocent.
	On her husband's side and misinterpreted on her daughter's side.
	Correct.
	And was the husband, was this guy, did he have a lot of money?
	Did he have a lot of status?
	Was there some reason why she would be willing to sacrifice her daughter's experience in this way?
	No, not a lot of money.
	At the time, he owned an interiors company, Cabinets Flooring and such.
	But he wasn't particularly wealthy.
	I mean, he kept the bills paid and kept her housed.
	So I can't imagine if there was any kind of extreme financial motivation there.
	Okay.
	And was your wife's mother working at this time?
	She helped out doing office stuff for the interiors company.
	So not really?
	Not really, no.
	Okay.
	So that's probably the answer, right?
	That he was the meal ticket?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And did the behavior on the part of the stepfather stop after this confrontation?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, obviously, creepy and scary, but not, I mean, full-on sexual assault kind of stuff, right?
	Right.
	Yeah, definitely.
	Okay.
	And was there anything else that you know of that your wife experienced under what in her childhood?
	No.
	No.
	No, nothing like that, no.
	Other than her parents would, they had like a wooden spoon that they would hit them with sometimes and that sort of thing, but nothing rising to the level of extreme abuse like that.
	Do you know how often she would get hit with a wooden spoon?
	I don't, no.
	Roughly?
	Weekly, daily, monthly, yearly?
	Weekly is probably a fair estimate.
	Maybe monthly.
	Okay.
	And sorry, how long have you been listening to what I do?
	I've been familiar with you since probably about...
	2017 or 18, I remember listening to you on YouTube, and then the Ahmaud Arbery stuff kind of came down, and I kind of lost touch a little bit.
	But the last few weeks, I've been listening to a lot of your podcasts.
	So you listen to some current events stuff, but not so much the self-knowledge, personal history stuff?
	Correct.
	Okay, that's fine.
	I was just curious.
	Okay.
	So...
	What is your relationship like with your wife's mother?
	I don't have a very good relationship with her at all.
	I kind of keep to myself when she comes around.
	We don't really have any kind of conversations because that actually reminds me.
	When we were first dating and my wife was talking about Going to church with me and kind of doing the LDS thing.
	My wife told me that I don't remember who she said it to or what the context was generally, but my wife told me that my mother-in-law said to somebody she's going to do whatever that fucker wants.
	Excuse my language.
	So then that was in reference to me in terms of Going to church.
	I've never really been able to get over that.
	That kind of told me a lot about what I needed to know about my mother-in-law in terms of how she regarded people that took her daughter or her children out of their paradigm, I guess.
	Well, I mean, it also tells you a lot about how your wife was raised.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	It's very coarse, right?
	Yes, it is.
	I mean, I certainly have my share of salty language, but generally it's for emphasis I'm not referring to specific people in that way.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	And is she still together with the stepdad?
	No, they actually separated probably about a year and a half ago.
	Huh.
	And do you know why?
	My mother-in-law was tired of being with him because he was very distant.
	And he went to work and got home and sat on the couch to watch football or whatever.
	and had some beers and that was it for him.
	He left all of the housework and the Parenting duties to her, and he just wasn't really involved.
	Sorry, what parenting duties?
	Just making sure that the kids get...
	No, but your wife's in her 30s.
	What parenting duties?
	Is she?
	Oh, she's much younger.
	No, she's late 20s right now.
	okay so what parenting um hmm hmm that's a good point uh I mean, are there any kids still at home?
	Who need parenting?
	They adopted a little girl with cerebral palsy.
	And so that is a challenge.
	And she's been in their house pretty much since I came around about seven years ago.
	Oh, okay.
	And is it the case that she's not going to become independent?
	Yeah, she...
	She has made a lot of improvements.
	She can walk and kind of take care of herself and talk for some of what she wants to communicate.
	But yeah, she is absolutely dependent.
	Wow.
	Okay, so that's the parenting stuff that she's talking about.
	Sorry, I just wanted to make sure I understood.
	So she divorced this guy because he only...
	And does she work?
	Your mother-in-law?
	Or is it still doing the same stuff at the company of her husband?
	Yeah, so they actually filed for bankruptcy in, I think, 2017 or 2018. So that's been out of the picture for a while.
	But he's always been able to land a job with different cabinet companies.
	And I guess I should probably...
	I actually started working for him when he had that interiors company and I pretty much followed him around to the different cabinet jobs just because it's kind of what I learned to do and the job that I've been able to get into that's afforded me the highest salary, I guess.
	Sorry, I'm just trying to get my jaw off the floor here.
	You believe your wife about this guy, right?
	Yes, yes I do.
	So why are you taking a paycheck from him?
	bro, what are you doing?
	Does it help if I say that my wife doesn't necessarily have a problem with it either?
	Thank you.
	Okay, are your morals dependent upon that?
	If your wife said it's okay to be a bank robber or beat up walruses with a 2x4, would you be fine with that too?
	No, no, not at all.
	So, her mother probably stayed with this guy and took money from him because he had the money and she didn't, and thus betraying her daughter.
	Aren't you kind of doing the same thing?
	Taking money from a creep who half-groped your wife when she was a teenager?
	Money?
	Oh, taking the easy route.
	He just gave you a job.
	Right.
	I mean, is this completely gone from religion these days, that the high road is the hard road?
	Has it been completely changed to take the easy path?
	Because that wasn't how I grew up as a Christian.
	Is it gone?
	And, you know, maybe you were just instructed differently.
	Maybe they just had a big revolution in theology that I'm not aware of, but is it like, yeah, you know, if the guy who half-groped your wife when she was a kid, yeah, if he offers you a job and it's decent pay and it's easy, yeah, take that.
	No, you're absolutely right.
	Did you pray to God about whether you should do this?
	I'm trying to understand your relationship to prayer.
	No, I did not.
	Why not?
	Aren't you supposed to prey on big life decisions?
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	And I definitely abdicated my responsibility to do that in several areas.
	Okay.
	So every dollar that's come into your house since you were married comes from the hands of the guy who your wife says half-groped or is a teenager.
	Not directly, because the company that he went to after they filed for bankruptcy, he was just one of the managers of that company, and I worked directly underneath him, but it was, you know...
	Oh, hello?
	Same situation.
	Sorry, I just lost a couple of seconds of audio.
	You worked under the guy?
	Yes, he was my manager when I was at that.
	I was at the company that he was working at after he filed for bankruptcy, and it's the same situation now.
	I'm basically working underneath him, but not for him, if that makes sense.
	Do you really feel that these hairs are worth splitting?
	No.
	Okay, does he hire you?
	Does he manage you?
	you, does your pay flow through his approval?
	Not directly, no, but he used my...
	Managers can fire people.
	I've been a manager, man.
	Managers can fire people, and they hire people.
	Yeah, he has that authority.
	Okay, so he can fire you.
	So your paycheck depends on his approval.
	My gosh, that's a good point.
	What do you mean that's a good point?
	You're in your 30s.
	You know how business works.
	Yeah.
	This guy hired you and you have to please him in order to keep your job.
	Yeah.
	So whether it's his company or not, it's the same thing.
	Right.
	So betrayed, in a sense, your younger sister, betrayed, in a sense, I would argue, your wife, by taking money from the guy who, I don't know what we want to call about it, abused her, I think you said.
	Don't talk to your sister about what happened to her.
	Don't talk to your mother.
	Don't try to rescue your sister.
	Take money from the guy who half-groped your wife when she was a child.
	I'm not sure which way you're praying, man.
	Is it the up or the down that you think you're getting your instructions from?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Again, just that it comes down to taking the easy route, I guess.
	It comes down to 30 pieces of silver, doesn't it?
	Ouch.
	Am I wrong?
	No.
	Get a little more money, a little more job security.
	Don't have to work as hard, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah, that's right.
	I mean, the road to heaven.
	Doesn't go down with an escalator, right?
	That's the road to hell, isn't it?
	Taking the easy route, doesn't that lead you to hell?
	I mean, again, I'm not a theologian, but that's how I was raised.
	That's exactly right.
	Does it bother you to take money from the guy who half groped the mother of your children when she was a child?
	And then lied about it?
	It does, but I hate, it feels horrible to say this, but I feel like that's all water under the bridge to some extent, and everything that's happened.
	What does that mean, that's all water under the bridge?
	I don't know what that means.
	What's happened has happened.
	My wife has built it.
	No, it's not.
	Okay, you're in your 30s.
	Things haven't just happened.
	When you're a kid, Things just happen.
	So when I was a kid, when I was 11 years old, my mother moved me to Canada from England, right?
	That just happened to me.
	I didn't have a say about it.
	But in your 30s, things don't just happen, do they?
	Don't you have free will?
	You make choices.
	Water under the bridge is passive.
	But you're a human being with a soul and free will given to you by God Almighty.
	Does God Almighty like it when you say, Hey, man, stuff just happens.
	Someone ate an apple.
	Someone killed his brother.
	Stuff just rolled water under the bridge, man.
	Stuff just happens.
	He's like, I think I gave you the gift of free will.
	Why would you throw that back in my face and claim that you are just cause and effect like a bunch of dominoes?
	Stuff just happens.
	That is true.
	Yeah.
	Now, the devil is very keen on the phrase, stuff just happens, wall water under the bridge, right?
	Yes, he is.
	Right.
	So, again, I'm not sure which way you're praying, but I don't think it's the right way.
	Maybe tilt your head back a little next time.
	I appreciate that.
	So, when did you first get a job with your wife's stepfather?
	This was in 20...
	Sorry, I believe it was 2015 or 16. So, eight, nine years ago.
	So, your entire working life has been taking money from the guy who maybe half-groped, I mean, I believe your wife, you believe your wife, so we're just going to say that, who half-groped, according to your wife, who half-groped your wife when she was a child, and then lied about it.
	Yeah, there was a brief period.
	No, no, no, no.
	I don't want to spend our valuable time together.
	With little asterisks and hair splitting.
	All right.
	I appreciate that.
	So, how long have you known your wife?
	Since 2015. Since 2015. Yes.
	Okay.
	So, it was very quickly after you met your wife that you got a job with her stepfather, right?
	It was.
	How long?
	I want to say maybe...
	It was probably in March of 2017 that I first started working for him.
	Okay.
	So how long after you started dating, not just first contacted, but how long after you started, I guess, somewhat seriously or seriously dating your wife, did you take a job with her stepfather?
	Well, we started seriously dating in September of 2015, so I would say maybe...
	Maybe six months, then I started working for him.
	Okay, so this is before you got married, or is it?
	Yes.
	And how long were you dating before you got married?
	Let's see, from September of 15 to March of 17 is when we got married.
	Well, a year and a half.
	A year and a half, okay.
	So how did it come about that you took a job with your wife's stepfather?
	Well, I was working for my dad and his machine shop at the time.
	And I was talking to my wife's parents about the operation that they had going.
	And they said that they would pay me.
	I can't remember what it was, maybe three or four dollars an hour more than I was making, and that was...
	It was a lot of money for me at the time.
	It was more than I had ever made, and I didn't feel like it was something that I could turn down.
	Okay.
	And did your father ever try to match the salary, or how did that work?
	No.
	No, he did not.
	I didn't even give him the opportunity to do it.
	Wait, you bailed on your dad to go and...
	at what point did you find out that this man had according to your wife half-groped or as a child I'm not sure I am fairly confident that it was after I had started working for him.
	Long after?
	Maybe a matter of months.
	Okay.
	So, why didn't you give your father an opportunity to make you happy there?
	I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have.
	I'm just curious.
	It's a bit unusual, but that doesn't mean it does for no good reason.
	I didn't think that there was...
	Well, one, I didn't think that he could match that salary.
	The other thing is, our relationship, our working relationship, mine and my father's, was deteriorating quite a bit.
	We didn't get along super well working together, and so that was another motivation for me to just get out.
	And what were the issues with your father?
	I was lazy and I didn't get things done quick enough for his liking and so it's not on him.
	I mean, it's my fault.
	Well, no, he raised you, right?
	Yeah.
	Did your parents ever notice when you were a kid that, you said after sort of middle school when math started to get tough, did your parents ever notice that you were having trouble applying yourself and help you with any of that?
	They tried, yeah.
	They had my older sister who was A really, really good student tried to tutor me in math and helped me to get certain school projects over the finish line.
	But the whole time, I wasn't trying to internalize any of it.
	I was just trying to get through high school.
	Okay, got it.
	Okay, right.
	So, do you remember much about your thoughts and feelings?
	after you found out that your father-in-law had half-groped your wife when she was a child?
	Oh.
	I was pretty stunned by it.
	I wasn't really sure how to act in that situation.
	I've never really been confronted with any kind of scenario like that before.
	I'm sorry, what do you mean?
	You'd never...
	Wasn't this after your...
	I'm sorry if I got the timeline wrong, but wasn't this after your mother had accused your father of this?
	No, this was before.
	This was before, because this was, I mean, I would say maybe mid-2017, and all the accusations were leveled against my dad in maybe mid-18.
	Okay, got it.
	So, yeah, I... I mean, I talked to my wife about it, I believed her, but I was absolutely lacking in the department of knowing what to do about it.
	What do you mean?
	How to actually behave with her and help her to deal with it in the best possible way.
	No, no, that's very foggy.
	I don't even know what that means.
	But when you found out that the guy who was signing your paycheck had half-groped your wife as a child, help me understand what's not clear about that.
	Yeah, I suppose I saw my role in that situation as more of a listener and a consoler, more than, hey, let's get you out of this.
	Right.
	So that's kind of feminine, right?
	And I'm not calling you feminine.
	I'm just saying that the male's job, I think, is to be a provider and a protector, right?
	Right.
	Absolutely.
	It's the woman's job to console that which cannot be changed.
	It's the man's job to change that which can.
	That's good.
	Yeah.
	Which is why men build and women nurture.
	Did you?
	Yeah.
	What does it mean to you?
	I mean, growing up as a Christian, right?
	The man is the head of the household and the provider and the protector.
	Maybe it's different under LDS, but I don't think so.
	Correct me if I'm wrong.
	No, not at all.
	You're absolutely right.
	Right.
	So, a male seriously harmed your wife and drove a huge wedge between Her and her mother, right?
	Yeah.
	Based on money, we assume.
	Correct.
	And what was your thought in going back into work with this guy as your boss?
	Oh, I remember being very uncomfortable.
	I mean, I had a hard time looking him in the eye after that.
	But I... I just carried on with that discomfort and pushed through and ignored it and swept it into the rug and didn't really deal with it at all.
	Okay, and again, my goal here is certainly not to make you feel bad.
	I'm just trying to understand your moral journey because, like, I'm a moral philosopher guy, right?
	So the moral journey is what's most important to me.
	Did your wife ever talk about any discomfort she had with you working with the guy she claimed half molested her or half groped her as a child?
	She did, but never to the extent of you have to stop working for him because...
	No, no, that's your job.
	She can't draw boundaries for someone who's abused her, right?
	That's the basic fact of life, right?
	So what did she say?
	Did she say anything to you before?
	You started working for this guy, like, oh, I don't know, man, this guy's a bit off, and here's what happened.
	So she didn't say anything before you started working with him, is that right?
	That's right.
	Okay.
	So she says, like, yeah, go for it.
	Sounds like a good job.
	I'm glad you're getting a pay raise.
	She was keen on it.
	I mean, I assume you discussed it with her, right?
	Yes.
	Yes, I did.
	And she was actually, if I remember right, she seemed like she was pretty...
	Excited about the prospect, because she helped out with a little bit of the office stuff, too, and they kind of made it a family affair that they would all go out to job sites and do stuff together sometimes.
	So she was keen, but then later she told you about this history, right?
	Correct.
	And then at some point she said that she had some negative thoughts or feelings or experience of you working for him.
	Is that right?
	That's right.
	And what does she say?
	I mean, and this has been happening over the course of the years that I've been working underneath them.
	She says that she isn't particularly comfortable with it.
	She's not happy that we have to deal with them because their relationship isn't the greatest.
	She doesn't really like him that much.
	But she also recognizes it as the...
	I mean, it's all about...
	How much money I can bring home, and this is the avenue for that.
	So, I suppose that she suppresses that discomfort to some extent as well.
	So, she said she doesn't like you working for him, or feels uncomfortable.
	Correct.
	Yes, if we could make the same amount of money doing anything else, we would do that.
	How cheap is a divorce?
	I shudder to think of it.
	I mean, a divorce is easy 100K and more.
	I'm not just talking to lawyers or whatever might happen, but I'm talking about the fact that you need two households instead of one, that the total costs of divorce run into the hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars.
	Not to mention the harm upon your children and all of that.
	So I'm not sure how the finances balance out.
	For a couple of bucks an hour, maybe.
	Maybe.
	You don't know.
	Maybe you'd be much more employable now that you have a lot of work experience.
	Although maybe he'd give you a bad reference.
	I don't know.
	Whatever, right?
	There's ways you could deal with that.
	Just get customer testimonials or whatever, right?
	So, I'm trying to understand the couple of bucks an hour to, in a sense, betray my wife.
	Which makes her unhappy, feel unprotected.
	Unloved, uncared for.
	But I'm making an extra couple of bucks an hour.
	Maybe.
	Right.
	And that's worth my kids' happiness and future, the stability of my marriage, the love of my wife.
	I mean, that's what I mean by the 30 pieces of silver.
	It's not even a good deal.
	Like, at least get millions of dollars for half-betraying your wife, right?
	But this is chump change for everything.
	I can have some vague respect for people who get a good price for their integrity, but this isn't even that.
	Right.
	Yeah, I've definitely since come to the realization that I was not in any way the man that I was supposed to be at that time.
	Well, but she knew all of this, too.
	I'm not saying she's a victim, right?
	She knew all of this, too, when she decided to marry you.
	Okay, and so when did you find out that your mother-in-law had said she'll do whatever this fucker wants?
	This is like before you got married, right?
	Because that was...
	It was before we got married, yeah.
	Okay.
	And you've never talked to her about that, I assume, right?
	To my mother-in-law?
	Yeah.
	No.
	Does she even know you heard that?
	She may.
	Because my wife obviously knows about it.
	She may have talked to her at some point about that situation.
	But I'm not 100% sure.
	And what is your mother's relationship with her mother like?
	My mother and...
	No, no.
	Your mother wasn't in the equation.
	It's your wife and her mother.
	Okay.
	They're on speaking terms and they get together and do things together from time to time.
	Like go out to eat and stuff like that.
	My wife does have a problem with the way that she was raised by her mother.
	She was yelled at a lot even though she was a pretty good student.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, they talk, but if you get my wife's actual opinion on it, then she has a lot of issues with her mom and the way that she was raised.
	Okay, and what is your evaluation of your mother-in-law's character?
	She is...
	She's two-faced.
	She'll tell you what you want to hear and talk about you behind your back.
	And she's really only interested in money, which she doesn't have a lot of lately.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Surprise.
	I remember when we actually took a trip up to visit some family for a wedding in 2016, I think.
	And the car that we drove, it was like a 22-hour trip.
	And the car that we drove up there was not in very good shape.
	And so when we got to where we were going, my mother-in-law said, oh, you guys should just buy a car.
	And anything that was really decent, I couldn't.
	They probably approved me for it, but I couldn't actually afford it.
	I was working for them at the time and she said, just put down on the application that you make $50,000 a year and just don't worry about it.
	So that was incredible to me and I'll never forget about that.
	Brett.
	Okay.
	I'm not sure what bearing that has on the...
	No, I mean, it's an indication of character.
	And how old's your oldest?
	She is six.
	Sorry, five.
	Five.
	I was pretty sure, but I didn't want to guess, right?
	So, have your children spent much time around your parents and your wife's parents?
	Before, I guess, the divorce on the part of your mother-in-law.
	Yes, yeah.
	We started together with my mom separately and with my dad separately, and they get along fine.
	Okay, and so your mother, according to your sister, has falsely accused your father of being a pedophile, right?
	- Hmm, yes. - What kind of influence do you think this might have on your children?
	Consciously or unconsciously, directly or indirectly?
	Right.
	Well, it honestly makes me hesitant to let my mom have the kind of relationship that she would prefer to have with my kids, because I know that she has that kind of manipulative, deceitful...
	So that certainly would have fucked it.
	And I honestly, every time we go over to my mom's house, I think about whether or not it's the right decision.
	Just because of that reason.
	Oh, and this is probably the part where I should share that My mom gave my wife and I $18,000 to be able to buy our first house, and that money came from the sale of my mom's dad, who passed away.
	Sorry, the sales of your mom's dad?
	His house?
	His house, yes.
	Okay, got it.
	And so that's not an insignificant aspect of this.
	I suppose, at least subconsciously, I feel like, oh, my mom, my time and the presence of my children for that.
	It's not something that I like to admit, but I know that.
	Oh, so that's just another 30 pieces of silver.
	Okay.
	And you feel that your mother-in-law makes compromises for money and falsifies things for the sake of money, like 50K on an application.
	But this money was not, I mean, your mother didn't earn it.
	Right, right.
	Did your grandfather leave anything to you in his will?
	No, not to me.
	Why do you think?
	I never was very close to my grandpa.
	Anyways, he had six kids that he had to divide up what he had left.
	But it wasn't money that she went out and sweated blood for, she just inherited it, right?
	Correct.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah, I mean, I do think it's important not to be for sale in life.
	I think we can all, I mean, if Jesus himself can resist the devil offering him the whole world, I think we can find some way to resist at least the sense of obligation, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	I mean, your mother's, if what your sister says about what your other sister says about that your father did not molest her, Then your mother's lies have torn your family apart.
	Am I wrong about that?
	No, that's a very fair assessment.
	It has absolutely traumatized, shocked, and divided the entire family.
	Do you think 18 grand covers that, that she didn't even earn, that was just handed to her?
	Not at all.
	Okay, so maybe a little less sense of being bought and sold, like on an auction block.
	Right.
	I mean, would you give the $18,000 back somehow if it could undo all the damage if your mother's lying that has been done to your family?
	I sure would.
	Yeah, so the lies are far worse than the money.
	I'm afraid that I may not have said yes five or six years ago when I wasn't as comfortable financially.
	But now I certainly would.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Now, I'm just going to go on the assumption that your youngest sister is telling the truth, and then, of course, it was conveyed accurately by your sister in the text over the course of this call.
	So, your mother, if she's unhappy with a man, can falsely accuse him of being a pedophile, right?
	Yes, and she did.
	And she did.
	Okay.
	Where is your sense of self-preservation?
	Do you honestly believe this could never happen to you?
	She did it to your father.
	Do you honestly believe this couldn't happen again to you?
	I'm not quite sure I understand where the sense of self-preservation is.
	And again, if I'm missing something or being unfair, I'm obviously keen to hear it.
	Thank you.
	But this seems like an extremely dangerous person.
	I guess I haven't really...
	Either I haven't really thought about that, or it just seems like any of the ways that my mom might slander me or try to otherwise hurt me.
	I just don't see how she could.
	But, I mean, anybody with the right motivations could come up with that.
	Well, I mean, children are very impressionable, right?
	Right.
	And children trust whoever's in their orbit because they assume their parents have vetted them.
	Hmm.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
	So, I don't, I mean, not saying it would happen, but the best predictor of future behavior is relevant past behavior.
	Okay, so let's talk about, because I know this has all been backdrop to the family issues that are going on at the moment.
	So, run me through again the major issues that Your wife has with you.
	I remember some of them, but I just want to make sure I look at them all.
	Yeah, yeah.
	She says that I shut down when I get home.
	I'm not as attentive to her as I need to be, or at least that I once was.
	So that's her stepfather, right?
	Yeah.
	You said that when he comes home, he just sits on the couch, watches.
	Football, was it?
	And doesn't really communicate.
	Okay.
	And is that a valid concern or issue that she has?
	In other words, do you feel that she's at least somewhat accurate in her assessment of that?
	Yeah, somewhat.
	Somewhat.
	I mean, I hate to admit it, but yeah, it's...
	Sometimes I get going from work, and I've still got work on my mind, and so I'm a little distracted by that.
	Or I'm distracted by something else going on in the house.
	like I've got hobbies I like to work on so I kind of focus on them and yeah so it's and sometimes she's she tells me that I I pay too much attention to the kids and not enough attention to her Thank you.
	Okay.
	Which I suppose is fair.
	What are your hobbies that are time consuming?
	Woodworking.
	Small little wood projects, like small pieces of furniture and stuff.
	It's not even anything major, but over the past year or so, it's something that I've started getting to.
	I mean, how much time is that a week?
	Realistically, lately, it's maybe...
	It's maybe an hour or two a week.
	Okay, so that's not really much of anything.
	Anything else?
	Hmm.
	No, no, that's pretty much it.
	All my free time at home is spent either doing that or helping my wife with the kids.
	So she says you gap out or whatever when you come home from work and you said there was some validity to that.
	That's not the hour or two of woodworking a week.
	Is there something else that happens when you come home?
	Or do you just gap out from her and spend time with your kids?
	Or what is it that she's talking about?
	Yeah, gapping out is a good way to phrase it.
	I'll focus too much on the kids or I'll pay attention to stuff on my phone, catch up on stuff that I haven't been able to pay attention to during the day.
	Now, is that work stuff or news or other things?
	Some of it's work stuff.
	A lot of it is just casual entertainment.
	Okay, got it.
	Okay.
	And do you have any sense of how much time you might spend on that sort of stuff?
	And, you know, it's one thing if it's 11 o'clock at night and everyone's in bed.
	It's another thing if it's like, you know, 6 p.m.
	and the kids are running around.
	Do you have any sense of how much time you might spend on your phone a day?
	Yeah, maybe an hour.
	Okay.
	One hour, okay.
	And what do you do with regards to your wife to show appreciation, to show respect, to show affection?
	Because, of course, you were raised in a household with no real affection, right?
	So it's not a huggy language that would come naturally to you, if that makes sense.
	It does make sense, yes.
	Well, I'll ask her if she needs anything and I'll run out and get her a soda or ice cream or minor stuff like that.
	I'll ask her if she needs anything done around the house.
	And another problem that she has is that I don't preempt her needs and wants, which is kind of frustrating for me because...
	It's not my job to read her mind.
	It's my job to seek out what it is that she needs and wants and then fulfill those needs.
	But she wants me to...
	She's said in the past that if you love me, you just know.
	Which is absurd to me.
	And know what sort of stuff.
	What she goes with.
	What she's wanting.
	No, no, give me specifics.
	I understand that.
	What does she want that you're supposed to know?
	Like what kind of...
	What kind of candy bar she wants or what she would like to have for dinner.
	Sorry.
	Trivial.
	You work, you stay home with the kids, right?
	Yes.
	So wouldn't she be taking care of dinner?
	Most of the time.
	It's if we're getting ready to go out to eat or something.
	Okay, so candy bars and dinners, right?
	You're supposed to know what she wants to eat, right?
	Yes.
	Anything else?
	That is pretty much it.
	Just in general, the way that she wants me to act around her in terms of paying attention to her and just giving her the attention that she needs.
	Okay, and what does she define as attention?
	Because for you, you know, maybe there's the old thing that women serve the family by staying home and men serve the family by going away.
	So maybe she feels...
	Like, you feel like, well, I served you because I went to go and get you a Diet Coke from the corner store.
	But you're gone, right?
	Right.
	So, what is it that she defines as paying attention to her?
	For you, it's like doing stuff for her, but that probably is not the same thing for her.
	That's her, yeah.
	So, what does she mean by paying attention to her?
	Yeah, she wants me to...
	To be around her and be doing things with her and to pay absolute attention to her.
	Sorry, I don't know what absolute attention is.
	Staring at her without blinking?
	What does that mean, absolute attention?
	Talking to her and asking her about how her day was.
	And just all my focus, instead of being on the kids or on my phone or on some other project or whatever.
	So she's feeling a snort.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And over the course of the day, how much time would you say you spend chatting with your wife?
	Just you and her.
	Over the course of the average day, well, we text quite a bit throughout the day.
	No, no, that doesn't count.
	That's usually functional.
	Talking.
	We'll usually have one or two phone calls a day while I'm at work, which lasts anywhere from two to five minutes, maybe.
	That's not a conversation.
	That's just an exchange of facts, which is important and part of running a family, but in terms of a conversation.
	Yeah.
	Maybe 45 minutes.
	Total of real conversation, maybe an hour if you include what we talk about over dinner.
	Sorry, but isn't dinner just managing the kids for the most part at that age?
	It is, exactly.
	Okay, so I'm talking like eye contact, important issues, how's your life, how's your heart, how's your head, you know, what's working for you, what's not working for you, you know, like just or what were your thoughts on the day or bigger life issues or something more than just functional.
	What we need to do.
	That might accumulate to 20 or 30 minutes a day.
	Okay.
	And what would she like it to be, do you think?
	I would say that she probably is not so much concerned about quantity than she is quality.
	No, no, she's saying that it's not enough, right?
	So if you're doing 20-30 minutes a day of real convo, and she doesn't feel like that's enough, then she would want, what, twice that?
	Three times that?
	Probably, yeah, twice that would probably be good.
	Okay, so she wants to be roughly as important to you as your phone?
	Hmm.
	Because you're doing an hour on the phone, right?
	You're doing 20-30 minutes of chatting with your wife.
	She's saying, at least bring me up to the level of your phone.
	That's a good point, yeah.
	And do you think that's unreasonable?
	Not at all.
	Okay, so why don't you do it?
	I mean, you don't want to end up living in your car with your phone, right?
	That's not a good deal.
	Yeah, certainly not.
	Again, I know this sounds critical.
	I don't mean it that way.
	I'm like, okay, so she wants more time and attention from you.
	Why not give it?
	I mean, there's only one reason why we don't give people what they want.
	Thank you.
	I mean, people we claim to love, there's only one reason we don't give them what they want.
	It's because we're angry.
	Yeah.
	So what are you angry about?
	Hmm.
	Jeff, I'm angry that I don't get the time to do things on my own like I like.
	Uh...
	For example, working on hobbies or whatever.
	Because she knows that I enjoy that personal time.
	And she encourages me to engage in those hobbies.
	An hour or two a week is not...
	You would like that to be more, is that right?
	I would, but that is what I've found to be about the upper limit of what I can realistically engage in before she says, okay, you're paying too much attention to your projects.
	It's time to focus on that.
	So you decided to have three kids in quick succession, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah, that's right.
	Okay.
	So what in your life...
	Was going to have to give way to having three kids, because obviously you can't have a life that's even remotely like it was.
	I mean, I only have one kid, and I was a stay-at-home dad, and I had to give up writing books for 10 years, which I missed, right?
	So, what is it that, in deciding to have three kids, five and under, right, which is chaos, right?
	It is.
	So, in deciding to do that...
	What did you recognize you would have to sacrifice?
	Free time.
	Well, I mean, I'm currently talking with you.
	My wife is at home.
	I'm sacrificing talking with my wife in order to talk with you, right?
	Right, yes.
	So, you know, that's natural, right?
	I mean, we all have to make those choices, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So, what did you and your wife recognize that you would have to sacrifice?
	In order to have three kids five and under?
	I don't think we considered how much of an attention drain it would be to have three.
	At this particular age, it's one thing if they're ten, eight, and six, then they can play a little bit together and all of that, right?
	But this is just...
	I mean, I get it.
	This is just...
	You're catapulted out of your day.
	You hit the wall and slide into bed and go do it all again the next day, right?
	So, I mean, that's...
	Exactly.
	Okay.
	So, are you trying to hold on to some previous life rhythm without recognizing that you got three kids five and under?
	Like, that's just not...
	That's gone.
	That's just gone and it's not coming back for a long time.
	Yeah, I probably am trying to do that.
	That's a good point.
	Okay, so let me ask you this.
	What sacrifices did your parents make for you?
	Because it seems to me like your dad, model, just he went out to his workshop and, you know, you got, you know, maybe a couple hours with him a week if you were lucky and so on, right?
	So what sacrifices did your parents make for you as a kid?
	In other words, what did they give up in order to spend time with you?
	Hmm.
	I mean, what did you have modeled?
	What language do you speak in terms of kids and sacrifice?
	Right, right.
	I mean, it's...
	The parents are doing our own thing, and they get to us when they can, and to whatever degree that they can.
	Okay.
	So you perceived yourself, I would assume.
	I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you would perceive yourself, I think...
	Correct me if I'm wrong.
	In that situation, as you're kind of an inconvenience, your parents have your lives and you don't want to impose too much.
	Partially, yes.
	I only say partially because I didn't mind being on my own.
	No, that's not true.
	That's not true.
	I mean, maybe as a teenager, but when you're little, if it's more fun to spend time with your parents, you'll want to spend time with your parents, right?
	Right.
	So, I mean, obviously there are times when kids enjoy being on their own, but children are not wired to enjoy solitude when they're young.
	They're wired because there's so much knowledge transfer that needs to occur.
	Language, customs, religion, values, morals, knowledge, like it's just this constant flow of information from parents to children.
	And children are not wired to be solitary, and you think of our evolution in the wild, solitary children didn't really do too well, did they?
	No.
	Right, so we're wired to, I mean, not exactly be joined at the hip, certainly as babies we are, and as toddlers we're very close.
	But we are wired to be bound to our parents very closely.
	And so solitary is because your parents have, in some way, I assume, communicated to you that they've got their lives, they're willing to take care of you if you really, really need it, but you're going to make your own way to a large degree.
	Yeah, that's a fair assessment.
	Okay, so that's the language that you speak, that you have a life, and the children are an imposition on that life, and that's a problem.
	But when you become a parent, your old life is gone.
	It never comes back, by the way.
	It never comes back.
	It's like a dimmer switch you can't turn off.
	You can turn down thoughts about your kids, but you can't turn them off.
	You're never like you were before.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So, it's like you go from caterpillar to butterfly.
	There's no previous life.
	It's sort of like, you know, when I was a single guy, I liked to go to nightclubs and chat with girls, right?
	And then I decided to get married, right?
	And I'm sitting there fuming.
	I can't believe I don't get to go to nightclubs and talk to girls.
	Right.
	Right?
	I mean, that doesn't make any sense, right?
	Correct.
	Marriage is a monogamous relationship.
	And so I've never once in my life, after I got married, or even before, that's why I got married, I never said, man, I can't believe I can't chat up this cute girl at Starbucks.
	Like, this is not a thing, right?
	Right.
	So there's no...
	You're not like a single guy plus a wedding ring.
	Yeah.
	But you don't have the modeling of the kids of the focus.
	Kids, you are our life.
	We chose to have you.
	You can't go anywhere else.
	You can't get away.
	You're kind of trapped here, so it's up to me to make your life here as enjoyable as possible, and my needs are your needs.
	What's best for you is what motivates me.
	I don't have this life with kids attached to me.
	My kids are my life.
	Because you're trying to rescue this life, this former life with three kids, five and under.
	Are you crazy?
	It's not going to happen.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Thank you.
	And the best thing you can do for your kids is to love their mom.
	Kids don't learn how to love by being loved by a parent.
	They learn how to love by watching their parents love each other.
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	So you have a resentment because of an expectation that you can have some of the life you had before and also three kids five and under.
	And I'm a little baffled as to why that would even...
	I mean, when I'm talking about it, does that make much sense?
	It does make sense.
	The only, I guess, correction I would make is that I... I appreciate and love my life with my kids.
	I mean, growing up, I did not care for babies at all.
	I did not picture myself even wanting to have kids.
	But then once I got married and we had our first, it was all over, you know?
	Oh, yes.
	Sorry, I hate to interrupt you, but you have to understand.
	How much you're replicating your parents' marriage.
	Your parents had a better relationship with their kids than each other.
	Is that right?
	Oh, definitely.
	And you have a better relationship with your kids than your wife.
	It's the same thing!
	Yeah.
	So why?
	Your children are a reflection of your love for your wife.
	Your children are produced by your love for your wife.
	So why?
	Is your love for your wife being sacrificed for your children when that's the only reason they exist?
	I wish I had an answer for that.
	You must resent what she wants.
	And look, I'm not saying you're wrong to resent what she wants, but you must resent what she wants.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	How much appreciation does she show you for the work you do?
	I mean, I assume she's home with the kids full-time and you're working.
	Is that right?
	That's right.
	Okay.
	So how much does she recognize and appreciate and thank you for the work that you do to pay the bills?
	She does.
	She does, yes.
	Okay.
	And what does she say?
	I suppose it's not as much of what she says as what she does.
	She takes care of the kids and she...
	No, that's not showing appreciation to you.
	Mm-hmm.
	If you were to say, if she says, you never praise me for my cooking, you never show any appreciation for the hard work I put into making our meals, and you say, hey, I play with the kids, don't I? Wouldn't that make any sense?
	Okay, so let's get back to her appreciation for you.
	Perhaps I don't feel the appreciation that I feel I deserve and Okay, you said she does show appreciation, and I'm not trying to nitpick, right?
	I just want to understand.
	What does she do to show appreciation?
	She will...
	Thank you.
	Scratch my back every once in a while.
	You mean metaphorically, or she just gives you a metaphor?
	Physically.
	Physically is what I mean.
	Assuming she's not, in fact, a bonobo monkey, I'm not sure.
	She picks fleas out of my hair.
	Tell me, what does she say to show appreciation?
	So you work how many hours a week?
	Like 40, 50, 30?
	Plus, including your commute.
	Yeah, 30, 35, maybe almost 40. Including your commute?
	Yes.
	Yeah, I work pretty close to home.
	Okay, so you work in, you know, eight hours a day for the family, right?
	Yeah.
	And does she appreciate that?
	She does.
	Okay, what does she say?
	Well, how do you know that she does?
	I'm not saying she doesn't.
	I just want to understand.
	I mean, are you reading minds, or does she say, thank you so much for working for us?
	She does.
	It's basically that.
	Thank you so much for working so hard for our family.
	Okay, and how often does that happen?
	Maybe once a month.
	Okay.
	So once a month you get appreciation for your 160 hours?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, how much does she want appreciation?
	I would say every day in terms of she wants it in the form of attention and just talking to her and being with her.
	No, no, no.
	No, no, hang on.
	No, appreciation is different from conversation.
	Isn't it fair to say that that's the form that she wants the appreciation in?
	Appreciation is not overcomplicated.
	Appreciation is appreciation.
	So, does she want to be thanked for the meals she makes?
	Yes.
	Okay, so she wants that every day, right?
	Does she want to be thanked for the work she does during the day?
	With the kids, or keeping the house, or paying the bills, or whatever she's doing to run the household?
	Yeah, of course.
	Okay.
	And does she want that issue?
	Would she be happy if you gave her appreciation for running the household, taking care of the kids, and making the meals, if you once a month you said, I appreciate that?
	She would probably want more than that.
	Okay.
	So, there's an asymmetry there, where she wants appreciation, but she doesn't provide it.
	She wants appreciation.
	And look, we all want appreciation and all of that.
	I understand that.
	And that's healthy.
	Appreciation means that your contributions are being recognized.
	And the reason we like feeling appreciated is then we're not being exploited.
	Because if you're only supposed to appreciate her every day, but she only has to appreciate you once a month...
	Then she's saying, appreciation is very important, and I'm not going to give you much.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So that's going to build some resentment, right?
	Right.
	So, when men get resentful, in general, we get passive-aggressive.
	And this is the fight of, you should know what I want, versus, you have to tell me.
	And then she says, but if I have to tell you, there's no point.
	Right?
	So you have, I assume, that you're battling back a lack of appreciation with passive aggression, which is, I'm not going to put the effort in, or maybe you've tried to put the effort in, I got you a candy bar I thought you wanted, and you got punished because that's not the candy bar I wanted, how come you don't know that?
	Right.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, it is really important when...
	You know, when your kids make you a picture, you don't say, well, I mean, come on, it's no Van Gogh.
	Right.
	You're like, oh, thank you, that's beautiful.
	You put it up on the fridge, even though it's just a half-tipped slop of watercolor, right?
	Right.
	You show appreciation at the level that you can receive it.
	And so, if your wife says to you, I want you to get me a candy bar, and it has to be the right candy bar, and if she punishes you if you get it wrong, she's simply training you to not be nice to her.
	Sure.
	Does that make sense?
	It does.
	Now, is she aware that she needs to encourage you to do what she wants with positive praise, not just negative feedback?
	It doesn't seem like she is aware of that all the time, no.
	Well, I don't know.
	What do you mean?
	You threw another caveat in there that makes my head spin all the time?
	What does that mean?
	When she's sleeping?
	When she's showering?
	Yeah, because sometimes she does.
	Sometimes she shows me that appreciation that I want, but not often as I would like.
	Now, you both come from unhappy marriages, right?
	Your parents?
	Yeah, yeah, we do.
	Your parents' marriage was deeply, deeply messed up, dysfunctional, and unhappy.
	Yes.
	I'm sorry, I'd have to die on that hill, because given the accusation thrown, this is just crazy.
	It deranged.
	Yeah, exactly, yes.
	I mean, false accusations of pedophilia can get people killed, right?
	Because if you're convicted and you go to prison, pedophiles don't do very well in prison, right?
	Right.
	So, deeply unhappy.
	I can't remember much about your wife's parents' first marriage, but then she had this creep of a stepfather.
	Who her mother, in a sense, sided with and said that she was wrong and so on, right?
	Exactly.
	So deeply, deeply unhappy marriages, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, how much have you focused on the fact that you guys were trained and raised to have a bad marriage and now you're having what?
	A bad marriage.
	It's a bad marriage, yes.
	No, it's sort of like I'm raised to speak English and then being shocked that I speak English.
	Yeah.
	Like, you're raised with terrible marital habits, right?
	Correct.
	And so, are you aware that...
	I'm sorry, this sounds like arguing like I'm swinging a lightbulb in your face or something.
	I don't mean it that way.
	But how much are you aware that you were taught the absolute worst marital habits known to man and decided to get married and throw in the stressors of three kids, five and under?
	How much have you recognized...
	How much you need to relearn or change in order to end up with a different outcome from your parents?
	Well, we're both very aware of the bad examples set by both of our sets of parents, but we haven't really talked about that in terms of, hey, let's try to really pay attention how that's affecting our marriage and what we can do about it.
	All right.
	So the short answer is no.
	Are you ready for the big bomb?
	Yes, I am.
	Okay, I want to make sure.
	Are you ready for the nuclear shadow of your former beliefs?
	That's what I came here for.
	My friend, my brother in marriage, my fellow father, you cannot be more functional in your life than the least functional person around.
	You cannot be more mature in your life than the least mature person around.
	You cannot be less manipulative in your life than the most manipulative person around.
	You cannot fight the bad habits of your parents without confronting your parents, drawing the line, getting either improved behavior, apologies, restitution, or not talking to them.
	Because your parents, on both sides, your parents are absolutely, completely and totally infecting how you deal with your wife, your boss, your children.
	If you have someone coughing up blood around you and your children, are they welcome in the house?
	No.
	Because it's an infection, right?
	So when you have twisted, devious, manipulative people around, does it affect or infect your mindset with regards to your wife and your children?
	It can't not infect us.
	Absolutely does.
	Because you're saying, these...
	These behaviors, these personality structures, these morals, or lack thereof, are absolutely welcome in my house.
	It's like saying, well, I will have people coughing up blood around me and my children, and then say, well, I have a very high standard of health for those around my children.
	it's like no you don't are your parents virtuous virtuous Thank you.
	Are they moral?
	No.
	Okay.
	Are they still manipulative and dysfunctional?
	Yes, they certainly are.
	Right.
	Are you willing...
	To sacrifice your marriage on the altar of your parents' dysfunction.
	Because that's what you're doing.
	Absolutely not.
	But that is what you're doing.
	Because you all get triggered.
	As would I. I haven't seen my mother in 25 years.
	If she knocked on my door, I'd crap my pants.
	Because that's wired.
	It's hardwired.
	It's like being in a war for 20 years.
	You can't then go to war and not be affected.
	Especially if it's your first 20 years, right?
	You have...
	These people come in and replicate their mindset in you and your wife.
	And I bet you if you analyze these fights, it's the same crap your parents were doing.
	Your dad wants to go off and do his thing and your mom's complaining about it, right?
	Yeah.
	You want to go off and do your thing?
	And your wife's complaining about it, right?
	Your dad probably got kind of exhausted dealing with your mom's nuttiness, to put it as nicely as possible.
	And so he went to hide out in his hobbies.
	And he attached to the kids because he couldn't connect with his wife.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	Am I wrong?
	Not at all.
	Not at all.
	So, you have people in your life whose corruption and avoidance and habits are unconscious.
	And the most transferable...
	Let me just sort of figure out the right way to put this.
	So, do you know that there's studies that show that the flu...
	Oh, I was not aware, no.
	And it does that because that's how it spreads, right?
	So, in other words, the flu virus that makes people want to be more social has that as a side effect, for whatever reason.
	Spreads more.
	If there was a flu virus that the moment you got it, it made you agoraphobic, like you didn't want to leave the house, it would spread much less, right?
	Right.
	So, you know, alcohol can be a disinhibitor, and there's other ways that you can lower your inhibitions, and so there are studies that sort of talk about that.
	So, if you are sick but don't know it, then you are much more likely to spread your virus, right?
	Are your parents aware of exactly how wildly dysfunctional they are?
	As a couple, I'm sure that they are, but individually, no.
	Well, they're divorced, so what that means is that they're blaming the other, right?
	Right.
	Have your parents ever gone to counseling?
	Maybe it's not secular therapy, maybe it would be religious counseling or something like that, but have they ever said, I have some problems, I have some issues, I need to get some help?
	Yes, they have been to, they did go to marriage counseling for a while.
	The only real details that I ever got about that was they always would end up with...
	And this is coming from my dad's side, so take that for whatever it's worth.
	He would say that the counselor would turn to him and say, Are you willing to do X, Y, and Z to make your wife happy?
	He would say, Yes, I am.
	Turn to my mom.
	Are you willing to do X, Y, and Z to make him happy?
	No, I'm not.
	He needs to do X, Y, and Z first.
	Okay.
	So that was how useful that was to them.
	Okay, so they've never had successful therapy, and they've never gone for individual therapy, even after they broke their vows to God himself to stay together forever under the holy covenant of marriage, right?
	I would say that I'm almost positive that they...
	My mom, actually, maybe she has, but I doubt that my dad has.
	Well, it doesn't seem to have taken very much.
	No, no.
	Okay.
	If your parents were on the call, and I were to ask them what they felt they might have done wrong or could have done better as parents, what would they say, do you think?
	That's a good question.
	And if I were to bar them from blaming someone else, because when I say to someone, what did you do wrong, blaming someone else is claiming they didn't do something wrong.
	So if I were to have your parents And say, tell me what you could have done better as parents without blaming anyone else, without putting the blame on anyone else.
	What would they say?
	Do they have the capacity for self-criticism?
	I think that my dad does.
	He would say that he would do things differently, pay more attention to my mother.
	Do more family activities, but I am quite positive that my mom is very deeply entrenched in the idea that she was a victim of his and anything negative that came out of that situation was because of his actions.
	Okay.
	So when your mother is around, the mind virus called Blame Everyone Else transmits to you.
	Hmm.
	And how do I know that?
	Because have you ever had a conversation with your mother while you tried to hold her responsible for the choices she's made in life?
	No.
	Right.
	Why not?
	I mean, she held you responsible as a kid, right?
	Why wouldn't you hold her responsible as an adult?
	Kids are obviously less responsible than adults.
	So she can't exactly complain about that, right?
	Yeah.
	So why have you not been honest with your mother?
	And again, it's not a criticism, I'm just curious.
	Like, why wouldn't you have a conversation with your mother about, you know, this was the good stuff in the parenting, this was the bad stuff?
	Because that's not bearing false witness, right?
	When we avoid, we are bearing false witness, right?
	Right.
	Because by not saying anything, you're saying everything's fine, which is false, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	I guess I'm not exactly sure how a conversation like that would benefit me or my family or the situation and the discomfort that it would bring.
	Oh, so sorry.
	So honesty then has to accrue some benefit.
	You have to, in a sense, be bribed with positive outcomes.
	In order to find it worthwhile to tell the truth.
	What kind of Christianity have you been studying?
	I don't understand this at all!
	I understand.
	Does it say, thou shalt not bear false witness unless, you know, it's inconvenient?
	Or you can't see an immediate benefit?
	No.
	Okay.
	So why?
	I mean, come on, let's just cut to the chase here.
	She's scary.
	She would escalate, she would be aggressive, and she's terrifying.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's right.
	So that's it, right?
	Yeah.
	So you're bullied into falsifying your existence with your mother.
	So, I mean, you may not have heard this kind of stuff, but, you know, if you have issues with your parents, then what I generally recommend is have an honest conversation with them.
	Why?
	Well, A, because if you can't tell the truth to someone, you're their slave.
	Right?
	And integrity is important.
	And also because it's absolutely essential in your life to differentiate people from able to take criticism, unable to take criticism.
	Because people who are unable to take criticism will simply blame everyone all the time.
	And that's going to infect you into not taking responsibility for your own life.
	And you know where your parents, in particular your mother, showed up in this conversation is when you said, Well, things happened, it's all water under the bridge.
	Remember when I told this whole thing about where's your free will?
	That's your parents.
	No responsibility, no self-ownership, no accountability, no higher standard that they can be held to.
	And that...
	That sense of being victimized, that sense of helplessness, that sense of helplessness that always comes with resentment, that goes from your parents and your wife, her mother and her stepfather through your work comes into your marriage.
	You are pumping sewage into the heart of your marriage from the endless vats of history.
	You have people around who blame others and don't take any responsibility and that resentment and that helplessness and that frustration and that anger is drowning your marriage.
	You're absolutely right.
	Yeah.
	And you're putting your kids in that too.
	Yeah.
	And your kids are watching you.
	Your kids are watching you being bullied by your parents.
	And I don't know how they pick it up, but they do.
	And children are always born, sorry, children are always drawn to the most powerful person in the environment, right?
	Yeah.
	Do you have a son?
	I do.
	Okay.
	Is your son really into chihuahuas or dinosaurs?
	He's only six, seven months, so not really leaning into...
	Well, you wait.
	He'll get there.
	Will you be surprised if he's really into dinosaurs and not chihuahuas?
	I wouldn't be surprised.
	Right.
	Were you into big trucks or were you into little, small, weak things?
	Trucks.
	Right.
	So children are always drawn to the most powerful...
	Person or thing in the environment, which makes perfect sense, because they want to be high on the hierarchy, so they need to study who's at the top of the hierarchy, right?
	So, who's at the top of the hierarchy in your family when your parents are over?
	I mean, not obviously together, but one at a time.
	Yeah.
	It's my father, it's my mother.
	Right.
	So in other words, your father and your mother in the long run are probably going to have more impact on your children than you are because your children sense that your mother and your father are higher in the hierarchy.
	The one thing that I made absolutely sure of with my daughter was she never saw me lie or get pushed around.
	Hmm.
	Thank you.
	Because otherwise, her respect, in a sense, and loyalty would skip past me to that person.
	I mean, if it just happens once or whatever, right?
	But in any consistent way.
	This is why I cannot have people around my family who disrespect me or who I can't tell the truth to.
	I can't have people like that around in my family.
	Because it's harmful to my wife's respect for me and my daughter's respect for me.
	Right.
	Because we've only talked about your kids, but what about your wife's respect for you?
	I'll go work for your abuser for a couple of bucks an hour extra.
	And an easier life.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	The God she worships got nailed to a cross for three days.
	The God you both worship.
	He took the high, hard road.
	And you can't even be honest with your own mother.
	You have to, have to, have to retain your wife's respect, brother.
	Otherwise, she feels anxious, nervous, unprotected.
	Now, I know we've been talking for a long time, but I do want to touch on this.
	Where is the suicide stuff coming from?
	That's a good question.
	How does it come up?
	What did she say?
	What are the circumstances?
	It never comes up immediately or in a calm way.
	It's never like, hey, I've been struggling with these kinds of feelings.
	It's always at the end of a very contentious argument.
	Don't you understand that I'm so frustrated with dealing with the stuff that I'm dealing with with the kids and helping to plan my sister's wedding and you're not there for me that I feel like I either have to divorce you or...
	And she rarely...
	I don't know if she's ever actually come out and said, oh, suicide or kill myself.
	It's always veiled terms like...
	You realize I'd rather not be here or go to sleep and not wake up.
	Picture really horrible things happening to me.
	That sort of thing.
	But that's the context.
	How long are these fights?
	How long do they go?
	Like hours?
	I wouldn't say hours.
	It's maybe 20 or 30 minutes at the longest before we get burnt out.
	Because a lot of times we'll be having a discussion and I'm trying to Maintain my composure, but I'll start to get consistent or fired up by something, and so I'll speak a little bit faster, and my tone will increase a little bit, and then all of a sudden the fight becomes...
	Now you're jumping down my throat, and I can't even have a conversation with you.
	Well, meantime, she's been screaming at me, which she admits is a trait that she got from her mother.
	She screams at you?
	Yes.
	Like, full top of the lung shrieking?
	Correct.
	Oh my gosh.
	When did that start?
	Was that the case when you were dating?
	No, I don't remember that ever happening when we were dating.
	So when did it start?
	The first time?
	That's really hard to say.
	I would say maybe a year.
	Year or two into our marriage.
	It was the first time that it ever came to that.
	And was this after you had your firstborn?
	Probably.
	It's hard to really keep the timeline straight when it comes to that because I'm not 100% sure.
	There we are again.
	100%?
	I don't even know what that means.
	Okay.
	what are some of the worst things that you guys have said to each other over the course of these fights in terms of name calling or labeling or something like that?
	Um, uh, I mean, she'll, she'll get mad enough that she'll say that, obviously that she doesn't want to be with me, but that she hates me or that she is regretful about our
	Our marriage, and it's just her temper, it seems like, because she always eventually comes back down, and she'll, like, I'll go to work after a night of that kind of a fight, and she'll text me and say, yeah, I know things have been really hard, and I'm really just trying to make it work in the best way that I can, and so it's, I mean, she just lets her temper get the best of hers, what it seems like to me.
	Wow, so she wishes she'd never married you, and she says that she hates you?
	Yes.
	And then did she apologize for that directly and say, that's absolutely terrible, that's breaking my wedding vows, that's breaking my vows to God, and I need to get some anger management, I need to get some counseling?
	No, she's never said that, no.
	And maybe I'm...
	I feel like I'm a pretty forgiving person, so I don't...
	No, no.
	Forgiveness is not willed, it is earned.
	Read your Bible.
	Sure.
	Read your Bible.
	Forgiveness is not willed, it is earned.
	Salvation.
	Can you will salvation, or do you have to earn it?
	You have to earn it.
	Right.
	So, let's not pretend we know better than God what is right and wrong.
	Right.
	So what have you said to her in the, I guess, in the heat of the moment that you regret?
	Um, I'm trying to be as honest with myself as a king in here.
	Um.
	Thank you.
	Just the other night when we were, I think this was Monday night, we were arguing and I mentioned something about because I focus on work sometimes too much and I said that I feel like she holds that over me in a sense.
	Sorry, she holds over you your focus on work?
	Yes.
	She'll complain to me that I am paying too much attention to work stuff.
	Because my hours aren't set, so I'll tell her, oh yeah, I think I can be home by 2.30 or 3 today.
	And then sometimes that goes a little bit later and she gets frustrated that I'm having to do more than that, which her main complaint, to be fair with that, is that I don't update her when the plans change.
	And that's obviously on me.
	But I don't like to break bad news.
	I don't like to say, oh yeah, sorry, this is actually not going to shake out this time.
	so I just try to push through and get a bend as fast as I can and then come home but it doesn't really work out that way sometimes.
	Okay.
	So what's the worst things that you've said to her in the heat of the moment?
	I don't think that I've...
	I'm not saying you have.
	It's fine if you haven't.
	I'm just curious.
	I really don't think that I have.
	I try to comport myself during these arguments with understanding and coming at it with a mindset of, hey, I just want to make this better.
	I don't.
	I don't yell at her.
	I don't accuse her of anything.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, was there any indication before you got married or before you had children that she had this kind of abusive temper?
	I knew that she was a very emotional person.
	No, no, no, no.
	No.
	No.
	That's not emotional.
	That's abusive.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's not emotional.
	No, look, I'm a passionate guy, but emotion is also love and attachment and care for the other person's feelings and empathy.
	Those are all emotions.
	Sure.
	So, let's not do the emotional thing, and let's try the...
	Were there any indications before you got married or had children that she had this degree of aggression in her temper?
	No.
	No, I did not.
	And if I were to ask her about it, she would...
	She would assign the...
	She would say the reason for that is just how stressful everything is, and...
	My lack of attention for her is driving her to do that.
	So she doesn't own her aggression.
	It's not her choice, her fault, her responsibility.
	It's stress and you.
	Correct.
	Yes.
	And has she had a health workup?
	I'm no doctor, but, I mean, this is such wild behavior that, I mean, has she had blood work done?
	Has she...
	Not with a knife towards this.
	I mean, she's been to the hospital for just usual stuff, but never looking into, hey, why am I this way?
	And if I've ever told her, every time I tell her, hey, maybe we should talk to some kind of a professional or a therapist or a counselor or somebody, somebody that knows what they're doing.
	She'll say, oh, well, I don't really see the point in talking to somebody about this, because we can just talk to each other about it.
	Well, but you can't, right?
	Does she have any recognition that she has an unusual level of anger?
	Yes.
	In fact, just after this most recent fight, even during the fight, she says, yeah, it's probably because of...
	My mom, that I get so angry, but that's as far as her rationality gets.
	Oh, so now it's her mom's fault.
	Anything but hers, right?
	Sure, yeah.
	Does she recognize the harm that she does to her husband when she says, I hate you and I wish I'd never married you?
	I would hope that she does, but...
	Well, no, does she say, oh my gosh, I'm so sorry I didn't mean that, or...
	That was really bad and I shouldn't never have said that.
	I mean, does she recognize the harm that she's doing with these truly wild levels of hate and aggression?
	I'm not sure that she does.
	Maybe once or twice she's acknowledged that directly, but it's certainly never a theme of our post-argument discussions.
	Why did you keep having children with a woman who screams that she hates you?
	I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have...
	I mean, obviously I'm happy children are there, but I'm just...
	Wouldn't that be something you'd kind of want to get resolved?
	First?
	Maybe that...
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's true.
	and maybe I and I'm like sorry about that I I'm a procrastinator, and I... No, procrastinating would mean having kids later.
	That doesn't answer anything.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I look at the situation and I say, well, you know what?
	This is an aberration.
	This is not the way that it has to be.
	We can fix it.
	We can work on it, and we'll deal with it when we deal with it.
	Obviously, there's no concrete solutions or even plans for a solution in that.
	So this is just part of...
	Okay.
	So the issue, I think, in this core sense is that you avoid difficult conversations and situations until they blow up, right?
	And then you try to manage them.
	Yeah.
	So the reason that people avoid doing difficult things...
	It's because it was impossible to do as a child.
	So, when you were a child, I mean, there was some dysfunction in your family, lack of affection and so on, right?
	Were you able to say, mom and dad, I would like something to be improved or I'd like something to be better or I'd like something to be different?
	No, I don't remember having any kind of conversations like that with my parents as a child.
	Thank you.
	So you couldn't say to your dad, Dad, I missed you.
	Can you not go to the workshop?
	Can we do something else instead?
	I'm sure I could have, and he would have probably been receptive to that.
	No, but there's a reason why you had to avoid these conversations.
	Because you're still avoiding them, right?
	And that's because I think you have every reason to believe they would go terribly.
	And so it's not that you avoid difficult things.
	It's that there was no possibility of achieving success with difficult things.
	So you just kind of give up.
	What's the point?
	You might as well just try to get along because I can't influence anything really here.
	So I just got to try and accept and absorb and deal with it.
	I can't affect my environment.
	So I'm just going to give up, accept isolation, solitude, and I'm just going to be kind of mostly...
	On my own, do my own thing, because no one's going to listen.
	No one's going to listen and no one's going to change.
	So, I think you've internalized that you just can avoid difficult things, but how was embracing difficult things beneficial to you as a child?
	It helped me avoid difficult conversations and...
	No, no, embracing difficult things, having difficult conversations, confronting people and so on.
	How was that beneficial to you as a child?
	Whenever I did it, it was almost instant gratification of, hey, here's what I did, and here's how it made whatever situation better.
	And...
	I'm not sure why I didn't embrace that more or lean on it more.
	Well, can you do it at home?
	Could you do it with your parents?
	No.
	Could you say to your older siblings, listen, you guys got to talk to mom and dad because this marriage is kind of strange, isn't it?
	They barely talk to each other.
	They barely spend any time with each other.
	They barely touch each other.
	that they barely look at each other.
	Yeah.
	Hmm.
	Thank you.
	And listen, I don't fault you for any of that.
	I mean, when you see the extremes to which your mother is willing to go, if these are false accusations, right?
	According to your sister, they are.
	Both of your sisters.
	Yeah.
	So if you see the degree to which your mother is willing to go to maintain dominance and to set people against each other, are you...
	Would you, as a kid, have been able to change that?
	Probably not.
	Okay.
	Was your father able to change that?
	He would have been, yes.
	No.
	Was your father able to change that?
	Oh, in terms of actually changing it?
	No, he didn't.
	So your father, who had all the adult authority, he had God on his side, because he's the head of the household, right?
	He has God and Jesus saying to your mom, he's the head of the household, you've got to listen to him, right?
	And your father couldn't change it.
	And your mother chose your father, chose to date, get engaged, get married, have children, stay with.
	He had God on his side, Jesus on his shoulder, all saying the same thing.
	And he couldn't change anything.
	Father, Jesus, the Holy Spirit, God, could not budge your mother.
	But you think you at the age of six or eight or ten could have?
	No.
	So it's not that you avoided difficult things.
	You avoided...
	Incredibly dangerous and impossible things.
	It's like me saying, you know, I guess I'm just kind of a chicken and I have a failure of will because I just, I haven't tried leaping across the Grand Canyon.
	But like, no, that's sane.
	That's not a problem.
	That's not a personal failing.
	That disengaging your will was a matter of brute survival.
	Avoiding impossible and dangerous situations was brute survival.
	Right.
	Right.
	It's not a character flaw.
	It's how we live and make it.
	Never thought about it like that.
	Well, you think about that like that in an unconscious way every time your mother's around.
	Yeah.
	Because you don't say the truth.
	And I'm not even saying whether you should now, because if she's a kind of false accusation person like this, that's pretty dangerous.
	Yes.
	So, how do you signal to your brain that you're no longer a child?
	Well, you stopped doing what you had to do as a child.
	Right.
	So, I'll give you a tiny example called my entire career.
	So when I was a kid, I could not confront my mother's insanity because she was physically violent and very dangerous, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, as an adult, I will continue to, I'm not talking about you here, I'm talking about like the media and other, I'm happy and willing and able to confront the world's insanity as an adult because that's how I tell my entire brain and soul that I'm no longer a child.
	As a child, I could not confront anti-rationality.
	As an adult, I can.
	So I do.
	To make sure that I remember I've grown up.
	And again, I'm not putting you in this category of anti-rational or anything like that, right?
	I'm just saying that here's an example.
	So you have to do the opposite of what you were forced to do as a child in order to truly believe that you are an adult and out of that situation.
	Right.
	That definitely motivates me to have a conversation with my mom.
	Because...
	Like I said, I always feel kind of tentative about bringing my kids over there and having a relationship with her at all because of how I see the way that she's interacted with her kids and with my dad.
	The whole thing just makes me uncomfortable.
	Okay, let me be devil's advocate here.
	And I don't mean this, of course, in a religious sense.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	If your mother is willing to do this to your father, is there any chance you can reason with her?
	I suppose not, no.
	No, not in a sense that she would come away contrite and willing to change behavior, no.
	Right.
	So if you can't reason with her...
	What would you get out of the conversation?
	I would get to a stage in mine and my mother's relationship where we are truly on the same page about...
	If you can't reason with her.
	Then you can't get on the same page.
	She at least would understand how I feel.
	Okay.
	To what end?
	To the end of telling the truth, no matter the consequences, I suppose.
	Well, the consequences can be dire, as your father found out.
	Hmm.
	So I've always said, have conversations with people.
	If it's safe.
	But your mom can be a bit of a right fighter, right?
	Just fight to be right no matter what.
	And that could be difficult and it might in fact be dangerous.
	That's true.
	So I would not want you to do anything that would put yourself and your family in any kind of risk, right?
	Definitely, yeah.
	So, I never tell people what to do, of course, but if I were in your shoes, I would try to engage with maybe a therapist or a professional, even just briefly, go over all of this, because I'm all for conversations if there's uncertainty, right?
	Maybe there's a chance, you don't want to have regrets later, or if only I'd done this, if only I'd done that, but given the information that you got over the course of this, Conversation from your sister.
	I'm not sure that there's much else that you might need to learn.
	Sure.
	And it may not be super safe.
	Maybe with your dad a little more, because he's been the victim of this kind of stuff, but I would be very cautious about that conversation with your mom.
	Would you be equally cautious about beginning to limit your family's exposure to her?
	Because right now, it's probably at least once a month we go over there just to have dinner and hang out.
	Yeah, I mean, with the conversation, and it'll take a while to sort of sift through and settle what we've talked about, do you want to?
	Knowing what your sister texted you over the course of this conversation and the accusations against your father and how much that harmed and tore apart your family and how much that harmed your father's relationship with his youngest daughter, do you want to?
	I mean, it certainly makes me want to minimize my contact with my mom in, again, a safe and predictable way.
	And I'm really, really, again, immensely and deeply sorry that you have these burdens to carry at all.
	I appreciate that a lot.
	I really am.
	This is a terrible, terrible situation.
	That's not what you're doing, of course, right?
	I mean, you're just a kid in the family, right?
	I think if you can...
	If you can draw a line...
	In your life as a whole for unacceptable behavior.
	And that line is mostly mental.
	It does translate over time into the sort of physical and the real.
	But if you say in your mind, this behavior is absolutely unacceptable.
	So my mother was a screamer, so I don't scream at people.
	I don't yell at people.
	I barely raise my voice.
	I mean, sometimes in passion, but never in aggression, right?
	Right.
	Because that just behavior is completely unacceptable.
	And I don't have anyone in my life who does anything like that, anything even close.
	Sure.
	Because it's just absolutely unacceptable.
	Now, that's just a universal standard.
	And that universal standard is just there.
	Now, because I have that universal standard, people who are that way inclined sense that and don't even come in.
	To my life.
	I haven't had to manage someone like that in decades.
	Well, that helps.
	I mean, yeah, there's an oasis on the other side of this desert of the real, right?
	Yeah.
	So if you just say, and your wife, unfortunately, she's doing a little bit of what she can get away with.
	And so if you don't have these clear lines with people as a whole in your life, Your wife will react to this to some degree and say, well, clearly this isn't a deal breaker for him, so I can do it.
	Right.
	And if you just have those standards, it just changes everyone's relationship to you.
	And it's almost like a weird kind of alchemy or unconscious communication and so on.
	Just when you have these standards, people's behavior with you changes.
	And if she sees you maybe putting some distance between yourself and your mom, Based upon the information you got today, then she'll say, it may give her some pause about using this level of aggression.
	And then if she's willing to pull back on that level of aggression, then she'll be able to deal with the emotions behind it.
	But as long as she's yelling at you so she doesn't have to confront her family.
	She's reproducing the behavior of her mother so that she doesn't have to confront the harm that her mother did to her.
	Right.
	It's not personal to you.
	I mean, I know it sounds and it feels that way, but it's not personal to you.
	It's just avoidance.
	And so you both are avoiding difficult conversations with yourself, not necessarily with the people, especially if they're dangerous, but just those honest conversations with yourself.
	If you're avoiding those conversations, you end up reproducing the behavior.
	Like if you avoid noticing that you're sick or you avoid isolating, you just spread the virus.
	And if you avoid...
	Like, once you accept that you're sick and you don't want to spread the virus, then you'll stay home, right?
	Until you're better.
	But if you're, I'm fine, I'm fine, you know, just around and pretending you're not sick, then you're just going to spread it.
	So, I would say that if you have that clear line in your mind, the behavior in your marriage will cool considerably.
	Because if it's unacceptable as a whole for everyone, Your unconscious gets the message.
	And once you draw that line with your parents, in your mind, you won't need to reproduce the behavior in your marriage.
	It won't, in fact.
	That makes sense.
	Absolutely.
	That's excellent.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	So, yes, that's what I wanted to get across as a whole.
	Is there anything else that you...
	I know we've been chatting for a good old while.
	while.
	Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	I don't think so.
	I think that helps me about as well as I could have possibly hoped.
	I sure appreciate you spending time with me today.
	Oh, it's my pleasure.
	And I really hope you'll keep me posted about how things are going.
	And I wish you both, both you and your wife, of course, big hugs.
	I wish you absolutely the enormous best and your kids and all of that.
	There's a way to break these cycles.
	I know it's not easy, which is why a lot of people don't end up being able to do it.
	But you can absolutely do it.
	And I'm sorry you guys have to deal with this burden.
	What a magnificent pair of souls to break the cycle.
	Thank you.
	Thank you so much.
	It sure does help to take everything as a whole in terms of our childhood and our parenting and just reframe everything that way, which is going to help us a lot.
	Thank you.
	Thank you so much.
	Keep me posted.
	Have a great afternoon.
	I certainly will.
	Thank you.
	You as well.

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