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Jan. 12, 2025 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:14:49
MY FATHER WAS IN PRISON! Freedomain Call In
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Alright, so I said that I've been meaning to reach out to you for over a year now.
My husband had his first call with you in December 2023, where he discussed the impact of domestic violence on our family.
Since then, he's sought help, and we've been without physical violence for over a year.
While we still struggle with unhealthy verbal arguments, he is making genuine efforts to improve, so I've realized I need to do the same.
Part of me must know that my childhood was less than ideal, but I've come from a long line of conflict avoiders.
And if you just pretend it didn't happen, then it didn't happen.
So sometimes I wonder if I'm making it out to be more than it is.
Although my husband's reactions to the memories I recall are odd to me, as these things seem so normal, it's hard to imagine that not all families have similar dynamics.
And I think I've been hesitant to reach out this year or all of last year.
Because I know that you'll uncover truths I've been trying to ignore about my family, about myself.
But I've spent the last year reflecting on my past, writing about my experiences, and attempting to set boundaries.
And I realize I'm in over my head and need more direction.
My husband and I have two little girls, and we are expecting another little girl in June.
Therefore, it's critical I put my fears aside and get my issues sorted.
And then I list out my main issues that I've been having.
The first being I struggle with forming consistent emotional bonds with my children.
I'll go from feeling deeply connected and then other times dissociated.
Number two, I'll feel immense guilt anytime I set a boundary, mainly with my mom, but just boundary setting in general.
Number three, I'm battling with severe anxiety and mild depression.
I also deal with social awkwardness, and I always get this feeling that other people are more adult than I am, no matter how their life is going.
If they're the same age, I just always feel like they're more adult or more grown-up than I am.
And then number four, I get easily overwhelmed and overstimulated, something I've struggled with for as long as I can remember.
Occasionally I can make that go away, but other times it will lead to outbursts.
And number five, just an overwhelming sense of shame from my past behavior.
When I was a young adult, lots of recklessness and disrespect of myself, and it's something that still bothers me to this day.
I used to blame most of my struggles on my dad.
Well, he's still alive.
He's a drug addict, criminal, and abuser.
But then after listening to a few of your call-ins and talking with my husband, I think I'm starting to see how much of an impact my mom had.
I always kind of let her off the hook as being a victim, just as myself was with my dad.
I think I avoided facing this truth because I was afraid it would make me dislike her or more make me have to do the hard things about talking to her about these things.
But I realize now I can't keep ignoring it.
I wanted to call you and try to confront some of these issues head on and, you know, make sure my past doesn't damage my children and my marriage.
Well, very wise and it's a very brave email.
And I appreciate the contact and I appreciate the conversation.
Gosh, what a what a tale.
Let's I mean, I'm happy to take it in whatever direction you want to do.
my personal...
Preference is to talk about your mother, your father, and your childhood.
No, yeah, I think that's a great place to start.
Do I kind of give you just a little summary of my childhood as a background?
Yeah, that's good.
Okay.
All right.
Well, I guess overall, I kind of felt I grew up feeling a bit lonely, always feeling like a burden.
And then I was constantly obsessed with achievement and good grades as I was growing up.
My mom had me when she was 19. We lived with my grandparents off and on, so sometimes when I talk about my childhood, I mention it as being kind of bipolar.
You know, there's the good years where we lived with my grandparents, and then there's the bad years where we didn't live with my grandparents, and we lived with my mom and my dad.
My mom was always there, though.
Even when we lived with my grandparents, we lived with her as well.
But then there were times where we lived with my mom and dad only.
My dad, he was in and out of prison.
He was addicted to cocaine mainly.
He was very violent.
He was part of a gang, grew up in a criminal-minded family, and I've witnessed physical violence frequently against my mom.
I never witnessed any physical violence against myself or my siblings, just against my mom.
He would take off.
Often and we wouldn't know where he would go.
And whenever he would get in prison and we couldn't afford to live in the house anymore, we'd often move back in with my grandparents.
So those being the good years where there was always plenty of food, they would open the blinds, there was light in the house.
So I enjoyed living there.
They spent lots of time with us.
But then I always knew that was going to come to an end.
And when my dad was getting close to...
Getting out of prison, my mom would usually, you know, work really hard at her job, get money so that she could get a house and be all ready for him.
So then we would move out and be all excited.
We're going to get this new start.
You know, it's going to be different this time.
He found God in prison again.
And everything is going to be great.
And it always was for a couple of months.
But every single time it relapsed back into the same old thing, he would, you know, disappear.
There would be more fights with my mom.
And then he would, you know, he takes our stuff.
He would pawn our stuff.
We'd come home from school and the Nintendo would be gone.
The GameCube would be gone so that he could get money for drugs.
I remember going to the pawn shop with my mom a couple of times, the same one, and having to buy our stuff back, of course, more than he sold it for.
So, you know, this guy had to see this back and forth of it getting sold and getting bought back.
But I guess, you know, he was profiting off of our dysfunction.
Trying to think of some specific examples.
There's one fight with my mom and dad that I remember very clearly.
I was pretty young.
I don't know, maybe six or seven.
And I heard them fighting again in the middle of the night.
I was in the top bunk and my brother was on the bottom bunk.
We shared a room.
He was probably three.
And anyways, it got really loud.
Louder than normal.
Very scary.
You could hear glass breaking.
And then I remember my mom rushing into the room and grabbing both of us.
And getting into the car, but we weren't fast enough.
And he followed us to the car.
And she drove over to my grandpa's house to my dad's dad.
Not sure why she picked that spot, but anyway, that's where we ended up.
And his dad came out and tried to cool things down.
That didn't work.
And my dad grabbed a baseball bat and he shattered the windshield.
And then, you know, my mom was, of course, freaking out.
And we're in the backseat and didn't know what to do.
And he gets into the driver's seat, my dad, and he takes off, driving faster than I've ever been driven in a car, and it's terrifying.
And my mom was screaming, stop, stop, stop, you know, you're going to kill us.
And that's kind of the last I remember, is just being driven in the car really fast, thinking we were all going to die, and then the memory kind of blacks out from there.
I'm sorry, how old were you then?
Maybe six or seven.
Okay, got it.
And so, yeah, I can't remember, you know, how we made it home or what happened after that.
All I know is that anytime these type of events happened, we pretended they didn't.
We didn't talk about it.
My mom wasn't like, oh, were you scared?
I'm so sorry that happened.
You know, we'll try to do better or whatever comforting words she could say.
We never talked about these types of things.
So we just pretended that they didn't happen.
And when I tried...
To confide in other people, like my grandparents, because sometimes we'd go stay the night over there, you know, just my brother and I. And I remember I confided in them once, probably a bit older than six and seven, maybe eight or nine.
And, you know, they were asking me, because they knew he was, you know, violent.
They knew some things about him, even if my mom tried to hide it.
So, you know, they would ask me some questions about what's going on at home, and I was honest with them.
But then I got in trouble because, you know, they want to talk to my mom.
You know, you can't be having this happen around your kids.
You know, you need to leave him, all of that.
And so then my mom and dad talked to me, you know, why are you saying these things to your grandparents?
You know, it wasn't that bad.
It wasn't really like that.
Or, you know, if you say these things to them, you know, you might not be able to go over there anymore because, you know, we're going to get in trouble.
So then that takes away my happy place, my grandparents' home.
Was to continue to confide.
So then I just started to lie.
You know, everything's fine.
That way I could keep going over there and I wouldn't get in trouble with my mom and dad when I got home.
And then, let's see.
So, I mean, there was also just generally neglect with my mom and dad.
You know, they focused on buying their cigarettes.
The money never ran out for that, but there was times where we didn't have.
A ton of food in the house or times we didn't have electricity occasionally.
They'd also have like random people that would, you know, stay at our house.
Maybe not so random.
One of them was my dad's sister, but I didn't know her well.
And they gave her and her boyfriend my brother and I's bedroom.
And we had to sleep on the couch instead.
It was a few weeks, maybe a few months.
I don't remember.
All I know is they ended up...
Scratching their name into my mattress with a heart around it.
I thought that was gross.
So they had the general neglect.
And then my dad was finally out of our life when I was 12. That's when my mom finally left him.
She was pregnant with my little sister, who's 12 years younger than me.
And he had been physically violent with her while she was pregnant, pushing her into a counter.
And that's the first time I had ever stood up to him, you know, telling him to stop because she's pregnant with my sister.
And I had been begging my mom for a baby sister forever.
And so I was like, you're not going to, you know, hurt her.
And I got knocked to the ground.
And then, you know, he leaves eventually.
And she tells him he can't come back.
He does end up coming back and they talk through the window for a few nights.
But ultimately, he ends up in prison.
And then she ends up divorcing him while he's in prison and she gets full custody.
So that's finally when he was officially out and I was like, this is where things are going to get better.
And now we don't have to worry about him anymore.
And then shortly after that, right before Christmas, when I was 12 or 13, my mom was wrapping some last-minute guests and she called me into her room, which is in this duplex we lived at where I was.
I remember just looking at the door.
There was an NSYNC poster on it covering up a fist hole that had been punched through the door.
And so I just stood by this door and I'm like, why is she calling me in here?
Because she's wrapping gifts normally, you know, not allowed in.
And she seems like a little nervous, but otherwise not really any different.
And she just says, you know, your grandma told me you've been asking some questions about why your last name is different than...
Your brother and sister.
And so I just wanted to tell you that, you know, this man, she would call him stupid, our dad.
That's what she would call him when he wasn't around or in her good graces.
He's not really your dad.
I was like, what?
And then she was like, so I'm like, who is?
But it seemed like those questions weren't really welcome to her.
She was just like, he's not your dad.
You know, don't you feel better that he's not your dad?
That he's awful.
He's not your dad.
So now you should feel better.
So I knew kind of where she wanted me to go with that, that she was telling me, but that we weren't going to be talking about this again.
So I told her, yeah, great.
That's great.
Thanks, Mom.
Yeah, I'm so glad he's not my dad.
You're right.
That does make me feel so much better.
And then she went back to wrapping gifts, and I walked away.
We didn't talk about it again for a little over 10 years.
When I did bring it up with her again 10 years later, so in my early 20s, You know, I was talking to my husband.
He likes to make movies.
We thought about making one kind of about, you know, a daughter going to meet her biological father and kind of following some of my storyline.
And I mentioned my mom and she hated the idea, right?
Why would we expose any of this to the world?
So no, don't do that.
And then also she goes, I didn't even know it bothered you.
And I said, what?
She goes, not knowing your biological dad.
I was like, you didn't even know it bothered me?
I get it because I didn't bring it up for 10 years.
So you didn't know.
So then I dropped that.
We never made the movie.
Not necessarily because of her.
Sorry, what was the movie going to be about?
It was going to be a short film about a girl who goes to meet her biological father who travels to meet him and surprise him.
Something I had thought about doing myself in my early 20s.
Not to be an option for me because my biological dad, when I found him on Facebook around the same time, He, like, deleted his whole account.
No one could find him after I sent the message.
He was just gone.
So I was like, okay, well then, you know, he's clearly not interested.
So then I thought, you know, maybe I'll just make a movie about it and, you know, that could help me explore those feelings since he wasn't going to be open to exploring them with me.
So that's what we were going to do, but we never ended up making the film.
And then I kind of, you know, let him go, of course, always in the back of my mind.
But then, you know, my husband and I, we got married.
And then we had our children.
And I'm now in my, I guess I can't call them early 30s anymore.
We're moving to the mid-30s.
And this year, well, even since having kids, I guess all of this stuff from your childhood really does come back up.
I had heard that, but it really does reopen all of these wounds.
And with how much I love my kids, it's like, how could my parents, you know, do what they did?
Because I couldn't imagine.
Doing that to my kids.
Although, you know, we have some of that in our relationship, which we could talk about too later.
But it brought a lot of this back.
So I'd started kind of writing a memoir or a journal, maybe more for myself.
I know my mom would find it the ultimate betrayal if I ever published anything like that.
But while writing it, I decided to reach out to my biological dad again.
You know, through the internet, you don't just need Facebook.
You can find email addresses and, you know, whatever else.
So I did find his email address and I wrote to him, you know, told him this is who I am.
This is my mom's name.
She told me, you know, you're my biological dad.
And his response, he did respond, which I was shocked, but it didn't really, it wasn't a great response.
He just said, you know, I'm surprised to hear from you after all these years.
And then he said, you must know that I'm not in agreement with your mom, that I'm your biological father.
And then he said, with that being said, I've come to realize the possibility of my being your biological father is more likely than not.
So really kind of a non-response there.
He said he was open to answering questions and talking.
So I wrote back, you know, with my phone number and said, you know, that would be great.
And then, you know, ghosted from there and never heard from him again.
Oh, he just ghosted you, right?
Yeah, he ghosted me.
Yeah, so I sent him one email saying who I was and then he wrote back.
And sorry, how old were you at this point?
I did this just this past year.
He ghosted me there after I came back with my phone number and said, okay, thank you for your response and I'm glad that you're open to talk.
I don't have many expectations.
I can't even put a voice down.
I can't even picture his face because I know I found his Facebook, but he didn't have pictures of himself.
Just one of those ones that uses random photos for a profile picture and I can't find one on the internet.
My family can't even tell me what he looks like.
So I just, yeah, I couldn't even put a face or a voice to it.
So I was just hoping to clear that up.
I wasn't expecting us to have some kind of beautiful relationship after all this time.
And then he seemed more concerned with how I found his email.
It was really weird.
He ended the email with, I realize in this day and age, information is easy to come by.
I am, however, specifically curious how you came across my email address.
So he seemed more concerned with how I found him than with me.
Right.
I thought it was a weird question because my mom told me he used to be a police officer.
So just being alive in this day with the internet and knowing how easy it is to find information, let alone being a police officer, I feel like that's something that should be obvious.
And it frustrated me that he even mentioned it.
Right.
Okay.
And I guess lastly for this, the one I call my dad, the one I grew up with, you know, my mom always called him stupid and my brother and sister are always like, well, he's not your dad.
So like it didn't.
None of our childhood really impacted you because he wasn't your real dad.
He's our dad, not your dad.
They think because he wasn't my biological father that what we grew up with had no impact.
Honestly, I was older and I was there for all of it.
My sister came along after he was gone, so that always felt unfair because I felt like my mom felt the same way.
He's not really your dad, so that washed everything away.
Now you're good.
I always thought that was really frustrating.
And I haven't really had any contact with him since I was 12. He would write letters to me from prison.
I did not write back at that point.
We used to visit him all the time before I was 12. Every time he was in prison, we drove out there like every weekend.
Even if it was three hours away, just to see him for an hour.
But after my mom divorced him, we didn't visit him.
We didn't call him and we didn't respond back.
And as far as I know, they're also not communicating with him.
I saw him once when I was 18. When he unexpectedly came to our house, but my mom told him to leave, and that was kind of that.
And so he has reached out to me.
Also, I think it was last December, December 23, he found me on Facebook and reached out, just saying, you know, he missed me, he wanted to talk, he wanted to reconnect, etc.
I didn't respond because I was going through this emotional turmoil with my mom and I's relationship, and I didn't have time to add him to the mix.
But I did.
Feel guilty for not responding like I was hurting his feelings, which I know is strange given, you know, the damage he caused, but I still felt guilty anyways.
Right.
Okay.
Sorry, I'm not sure if you're down or...
I was trying to think if there's some other...
I know I didn't talk much about my mom.
I think that's...
Yeah, tell me more about what's going on with your mom.
The harder one to do.
I think for a long time, I've been frustrated with her, but I always thought, you know, she was a victim too, right?
She went through a lot of domestic violence with him.
You know, he was always gone and missing, and she was always upset.
And I know she had a hard time because she confided me at a young age about him not coming home.
Is he with another woman?
Is he gonna...
Take all of our stuff.
Can we afford to pay our bills?
She would be like, here, can you hide the car keys?
You know, which I did in my Barbie box so that the car would be there in the morning so she could go to work.
So I feel like she always had, you know, this hard time.
So I think I always saw her as a victim.
So coming against her with anything negative made me feel extremely guilty or cruel because she was struggling herself.
And also we just don't.
I wouldn't say we have, we definitely don't have a close relationship.
We've never really talked about anything important.
You know, she didn't, like growing up, she didn't talk to me about boys or sex or, and now she's not giving me advice about, you know, building a family or asking me how's my marriage or any of these types of things where I feel like, you know, parents, you know, could be helpful.
Sorry, giving you advice?
How on earth could she give you advice?
She made every bad decision known to man, God, and devil.
Yeah, I see your point there.
Okay, maybe advice, and it's not the right word that I'm really expecting from her.
I get that she cannot give me advice because she is not, you know, leading a life where you could give someone advice.
Well, I mean, sorry to interrupt.
I mean, I know this sounds kind of contradictory, so I apologize for that.
So I'm not saying she could give you advice, but she'd have to go to a lot of therapy.
She'd have to...
Figure out what was going on in her life.
And then she'd have to say, here's how I ended up making such bad decisions.
Here's how you can make better ones.
Like, she'd have to be humble.
She'd have to admit faults.
She'd have to, you know, teach you how to avoid the bad mistakes she made.
But it sounds like she mostly just blames others.
She does.
No, that's a fair assessment.
And taking blame is not something I can see her doing.
Going to therapy is not something I can see her doing.
She can't even talk to me.
She does not want to face the past at all.
Anything painful, she blocks out.
She's always played a lot of video games, and now that she has all of the apps on iPads and things like that, she's obsessed with that.
We can get into that as well.
So she'll just do anything she can to block out the noise.
She does not want to confront any of it or talk about anything negative ever.
So we did not talk about anything.
She doesn't really seem to have an interest in my life.
When we do talk, we mainly talk about her and mainly about her work because she only calls me when she's at work.
She does not call me in the evenings or the weekends, so she's also calling me when I'm at work.
And we only talk for a little bit.
She's got to go because someone's calling her because she's at work.
So I feel like I'm not worthy of her free time.
I'm only someone to pass the time when she's got a break at work or when she's driving.
And during those times, she just talks about whatever drama is going on in her little office between the people or how she can't meet her goals at work or this is happening or that's happening or whatever.
Or she'll complain about someone else in the family, like your grandpa's doing this or your brother's doing that.
So she'll just talk about surface level stuff.
God, I'm half falling asleep just listening to you describe your mother's conversations.
It must be pretty spacey to be on the receiving end of that drivel.
It is.
It's frustrating.
And she says the same thing every time.
You know, I'm exhausted.
I don't feel good.
Those are like, that's like her number one phrase.
If she had a doll with catchphrases, that would be it.
And then she always, you know, gets towards the end of the call.
I know when she's going to end it because she's on her way home and she's pulled into the driveway.
And that's where my time stops because now she's home.
And she always says, I just want to get home and take my pants off and sit in bed.
And she's going to watch some reruns.
She's going to play her game.
One of those online games where you have your own little world and you grow stuff and go fight battles.
She's told me about it.
She's the leader of it.
It consumes a lot of her time.
She plays it all the time.
Even if she comes to my house, she's still checking in on her phone because you have to.
Otherwise, she's going to lose this war or whatever.
That's just what she does.
We don't talk about anything important.
We don't talk about my past or my childhood.
Growing up, she did not help me with things.
She made me terrified of the world.
It was always like, you can't go to a sleepover.
You can't go to the river with your friends.
You're going to drown.
You're going to get kidnapped.
You're going to be murdered.
We watched a lot of crime shows.
That's what she watched growing up.
True crime and then other crime shows like Law and Order and everything like that.
She's like, see, it's a really dangerous world.
You don't want to go out there.
Um, by yourself.
Um, so it's terrible.
Um, she didn't help me get ready to go to college.
So, you know, I was, um, an overachiever in school.
Um, um, everyone called me a try hard, especially my brother.
Um, but I knew that education or I felt that education was my way out and it turns out it was.
Um, so she didn't help me go to college.
I had to apply for everything on my own.
I had to locate her W-2 to apply for my financial aid.
Um, I... You know, study for the SAT alone.
She just helped me with nothing.
Like, she didn't help me look into the dormitories or, like, where to go.
I did everything myself, and I, you know, got accepted, and I told her.
And the one thing she helped me with is she drove me there because I couldn't afford to bring my car because it's really expensive for the parking garages, for the dormitories.
So anyways, she drove me there.
My brother and sister came too, and the whole drive there, she made me feel guilty for leaving.
She was, you know, like...
Crying and so upset about it.
And, you know, what are you going to do?
And da-da-da-da-da.
And finally, she drops me off and I'm alone with no boundaries and no one that says I'm not allowed to leave the house or have sleepovers or do anything.
And so college was a weird time for me.
I did really well in school.
I made really good grades.
I didn't stop doing that.
But I also had, like, no experience with anyone to tell me about drinking or drugs or boys.
Well, you had someone to teach you about drugs.
Well, that's true.
Yeah, I did have someone to teach me about drugs.
And sometimes that makes you stay away from them, but in that case, I didn't.
I did not become addicted to any of them, but I did try a lot of them.
But it was mainly alcohol.
I had a problem with drinking too much and then doing things that, again, I'm not proud of.
That I still deal with a lot of shame to this day.
It hits me randomly, just feeling really guilty for just not respecting myself better and for making these bad decisions and for some of the things that I did.
Listen, I don't want you to rehash old stuff or make you feel bad, but I'm not sure what those...
I mean, most people will try alcohol.
I mean, I certainly tried alcohol in university or college, and I realized pretty quickly that that was not for me.
Actually, I tried it in high school.
And then once or twice in college.
What, I mean, were the bad decisions, you don't, again, I'm sort of sensitive to not wanting you to rehash bad things, but what were some of the general categories or manifestations of those bad decisions?
Okay, yeah, so I tried it, you know, more than a couple of times.
It was still a regular weekend occurrence for me.
Sorry, you tried what?
Alcohol, more than once or twice.
Okay, and well, tried alcohol could be a sip of fireball whiskey or it could be, what was it, I was talking to some guy on the, Live streamed the other day, who was kind of a bit of a troll, and then it turns out he was 10 days sober from drinking 60 beers a day.
Oh, wow.
I assume it wasn't 60 beers a day, but it probably was more than a sip of fireball whiskey.
It certainly was.
It was enough to not remember everything the next day quite frequently.
So yeah, I would do that.
So some of the things, I put myself in dangerous situations.
You know, waking up and not knowing where I was or, you know, what had, you know, occurred.
But I think the one that shames me the most is just having sex with too many people and not respecting my body.
People is a very non-gender specific term.
Oh, it is gender specific.
With too many men or boys.
Okay, I just wanted to check.
That's fine.
I mean, if there were some Japanese tentacle pseudopods involved, that's not overly shocking.
I just wanted to double check on the biology.
Yes.
No, just boys and not good ones.
Not ones that, you know, would care about me.
Well, and also when you were impaired with alcohol, right?
Yes.
Yes.
So that was kind of what I went out looking for.
I guess, you know, it makes you not feel for a little while or it makes you feel like someone, you've got all of their attention now, even if it makes you feel terrible the next day.
And even if it makes you feel terrible 15 years later.
But I also then met my husband in college.
And we had a very on-again, off-again, rocky relationship.
It was both of our faults.
We both had our own things.
But I was very jealous.
Had a hard time trusting him.
And so we had a very on-again, off-again relationship.
We broke up at the end of college.
And we stayed broken up for a little while.
My grandma died during that time.
And so that sent me through another weird year of my life.
We ended up getting back together.
We were in our mid-20s at that point.
It was still rocky.
But it got better.
We moved in together.
Some of the jealousy resolved.
I was working on that.
Working to trust him.
But we still had arguments, fights.
There was still...
Alcohol involved there, too.
And then just generally, I can be a difficult person to argue with, or at least that's what I'm told.
So yeah, we did have violence there even before we were married.
Sorry, what degree of violence?
What sort of violence?
You know, it wasn't the same, and maybe this is me justifying, but it wasn't the same as my dad and mom, where he would punch.
I mean, he left bruises.
So I guess in this way, it's not better.
But it was more pushing, shoving, you know, more knocking me down.
Like if I was getting on his nerves or annoying him in an argument, it was kind of like, stop, you know, and I wouldn't stop.
With words, then, you know, he would use physical force generally to push me down or, yeah, just shove me aside, something like that.
And then that happened a few times a year, maybe five, I guess.
I don't know.
But we had a lot of verbal arguments.
And that continued to happen in our relationship, even after we were married.
But as we got older, we worked on our communication a little bit.
It did get better.
It was happening less frequently.
Then I've spent a lot of the last five years pregnant, in which times he never put his hands on me.
So that, almost like when I got pregnant, it also forced me to stop smoking.
So it helped to curb that violence with him as well.
But, you know, it didn't stop after we had kids.
It continued to happen.
And the worst one was the one that he did the night before you guys had your conversation where, you know, it wasn't the first time he had put his hands around my neck, but it was the worst time.
It was the first time that I thought he might accidentally kill me.
The other times I knew he was violent, but that time I couldn't even recognize him.
I can see the look in his eyes and know when it's coming.
Well, it's one of these things where when you think that there's a general improvement, you start to have some hope that things have stabilized and gotten better.
And then when there's a big movement in the other direction, it just, you know, fills you with a certain amount of despair, right?
Yeah, yeah, it does.
Especially since that time, you know, it wasn't directly in front of our kids, but, you know, they were awake and they were in the other room and certainly they can hear.
So that, you know, that was something I always said, I'm not going to be my mother.
My life's going to be better.
I'm not going to make the same mistakes that she made.
So it really puts a lot of shame spiral on me too.
Are you in the exact same situation as your mother?
Now, my husband's not a criminal or a drug addict.
He doesn't run out in the middle of the night.
In every other way, other than the occasional physical violence, he is an honorable husband.
He's a stay-at-home dad.
He cooks, he cleans, he takes wonderful care of our children.
So he's got a lot of...
Great virtues, things that my dad did not have.
So, I know I'm not in the same situation.
I'm sorry, and I agree with that, but that having been said, just because somebody doesn't get caught doesn't mean that they're not engaged in criminal behavior, right?
Right.
I mean, if a policeman had been there when he put his hands on you the last time, would he have been arrested?
Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
So, I'm not saying he's obviously the same as your dad or anything like that, but saying, well, there's no criminality involved.
He wasn't caught, but as far as I understand it, and I'm certainly no expert in these areas, but as far as I understand it, that would be considered criminal behavior.
Yeah, I hadn't thought about it in those words, but yes, it would be.
Sorry, just a little naggy little point there that seems relevant, but go ahead.
Sorry.
No, it's helpful.
Well, it doesn't feel good, but it's helpful to think of it in that way.
So I think that that's a big issue, obviously, in our relationship.
And then it makes me feel terrible because this was, you know, from childhood, this was something I was never going to be in.
You know, I took education.
I was going to, you know, make enough money to where, you know, I was never hungry again, where I never had to worry about anything, where I never had to fall back on anyone or depend on anyone, especially a man, as my mom always said, you know, you can't rely on them.
So I wasn't ever going to put myself in that position.
But here I am, you know, halfway in that.
Well, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Again, sorry to be Mr. Nag and I could be wrong about this, but when you say I was never going to put myself in that position, but the relationship was violent.
Right.
So, saying years later, I was never going to put myself in that position.
This was the position, if I understand this correctly, from the beginning.
Yeah, no, you're right.
I think that every time the violence happens, but then when it goes back more or less to normal, I forget it happened.
I push that back there.
But that's one of the reasons why you stayed in a relationship that's violent, is that there's this dissociation and then there's this blind hope, right?
But that was just a one-time thing.
It's like there was a weird alignment of the planets and all of that, and so it's never going to happen again and so on, right?
And there's this dissociation from the violence, which is part of the cycle of violence.
Mm-hmm.
I see what you're saying.
Yeah, so I mean, it's not like I just came to that.
I can't just come to that realization now that I put myself in that position.
I repeatedly put myself in that position by getting back together with him, choosing to get married with him.
So what, at the origin of the relationship, what was, I mean, this is going to sound terrible, and I apologize ahead of time, of course, right?
But at the beginning of the relationship with your husband, There must have been something really compelling or attractive about him for you.
Right.
Because everybody's, I understand, you know, the violence and the scariness and all of that, but what people don't as often talk about is what is compelling or positive about this, right?
I mean, there's a play that influenced me quite a bit called The Streetcar Named Desire, and in it there's a...
A character that was played by young Marlon Brando when he was not old and chunky is called Stanley Kowalski.
And Stanley Kowalski is violent, but he is also very charismatic and sexy and obviously very attractive and so on.
So what was it, do you think, about your husband when you first met that you found so attractive and compelling?
I assume that was something.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
And still is.
I mean, when I first saw him, obviously, you know, I found him physically attractive.
When we started talking, you know, I found that he was funny.
He was a good listener, something, you know, I was craving.
So he listened well to me and responded well.
He was really nice.
He was also charismatic.
He was well-liked.
He has a lot of friends.
And he, you know, despite his flaws, he is emotional and sensitive and open to talking about the hard things, which is something I also didn't have growing up.
So, you know, it didn't scare him away.
And we were able to talk about those types of things pretty early on.
Okay.
And how good looking is he for you?
I don't know.
Back in the day, right?
I'm not saying he's not good-looking now, but very few people are as attractive as in the late teens, early 20s.
I did find him very physically attractive.
I wouldn't say that that was necessarily the main thing, but I did find him very physically attractive and still do.
Okay, got it.
And what is his type?
That works for you the most?
His what?
Sorry?
His physical type.
What is it about his physicality that you find attractive?
That's a good question.
I don't know.
I mean, he's tall.
Brunette.
I don't know if I ever really had a physical type.
He was...
Healthy, physically fit, but not like overly muscular or anything like that.
I don't know.
I don't know how to answer the question.
Okay.
Like you said, sort of a type of look, you know, big square-jawed, like manly man.
Is there something that gave you that attraction early on?
The height, the fitness?
Yeah.
He was tall.
And like I said, he's physically fit, athletic.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
And the on and off nature of your relationship in a college that you mentioned, what were the circumstances that gave that on and off sensation or feeling or, I guess, experience?
I think my jealousy had a lot to do with it.
We'd get into big fights about that.
And then misbehavior.
While drinking, like, at one part, one of ours happened at a New Year's party.
We had only been recently dating maybe a few months, and he had taken me to a party hosted by one of his, like, high school more acquaintance, not really a good friend.
Anywho, he knew more of the people there than I did, and we were there, and one of the girls, you know, sits on his lap.
And instead of being, telling her, you know, like, hey, get off my lap, he didn't.
And, you know, I got...
Really upset.
Made a bit of a scene.
And so things like that would kind of push us apart in those early stages.
I was his first girlfriend also.
So I think a lot of these girls were used to him just being, you know, single at these parties.
And then he finally had a girlfriend and he wasn't setting these boundaries.
And I was having pretty visceral reactions to it.
Right.
Okay.
And you don't have to get into details and certainly you don't have to talk about anything that is very upsetting.
But would you say roughly how many men did you sleep with over before you settled down with your husband?
Yeah, I know the answer to that question.
I don't like it.
Let's go with more than 20, less than 30. Okay, got it.
I appreciate that.
Okay, so how long have you guys been married now?
Seven years.
Right, okay.
And congratulations on being pregnant, and congratulations on working to improve things in the marriage.
That obviously is great.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so, and my gosh, I mean, I'm so sorry about what happened to you as a kid.
Like, that's, and your siblings.
I mean, this is all just absolutely wretched and...
Appalling and corrupt and monstrous.
I mean, the only, as you sort of mentioned, the only glimmer of anything positive was your grandparents, where there was some sort of haven.
And that was your grandparents on your mother's side, is that right?
That's right.
So that's, I mean, that's a wild thing.
And I'm very glad there was that for you, gives you some sort of template other than, you know, this endless horror at home.
But it's interesting that...
Your grandparents, since they seemed like nice people, the mystery of where your mother came from is not small, if that makes sense.
I have thought about that.
How did she turn out like that when I have this relationship with them?
But I've come to know my grandpa a little bit more now that I'm an adult.
I see some of the flaws I didn't see when I was younger.
With my grandmother, she died.
When I was 22. So I haven't really explored that about her.
And no one in my family is going to talk ill of her.
She was like the ultimate matriarch of the family.
And it kind of like fell apart after that.
We stopped, you know, doing holidays together and things like that.
So I haven't really dissected her.
And now that, you know, I haven't been able to view her as an adult very much.
It's hard for me to see maybe where her flaws, but I obviously there must have been.
You know, my mom didn't turn out the way she did out of nowhere.
Do you think...
Okay, so there's a couple of possibilities there.
And, you know, this is my...
2025 is my year of bluntness, so forgive me if I'm saying anything out of turn.
But my guess would be, was your mom pretty and dumb?
Pretty and dumb?
Yeah.
Yes.
Okay.
So that's not a great combo for stability?
I mean, and it's really not.
I mean, obviously, if she's dumb, that's not her fault.
That's just the way most people are.
Intelligence is largely based on your genes.
And there used to be all of these social rules around morality and so on.
Is your mother a Christian?
No.
Right.
So, she wouldn't have, I assume, any particular source of morality.
So then, she's pretty, she's not so smart, and she doesn't have any particular source of morality, which means she's probably going to just follow hedonism, or what feels pleasurable in the moment, if that makes sense.
Yes, I've heard you talk about that in other calls, and that hit home for me about my mom.
So, yes, I agree.
Okay.
And, I mean, does that seem to describe her life as a whole?
Yes, absolutely.
She's definitely always chasing, you know, worldly pleasures and luxuries and shutting everything else out.
She's very much in the present moment.
Let's not talk about the past.
Let's not worry about the people.
Let's talk about the past.
Let's not talk about anything that's upsetting because short-term pleasures are the only thing in life.
Yes.
Yeah, that's a better way to put it.
I think that probably would be...
The closest thing.
What feels good in the moment is what matters for that sort of personality.
And then, of course, there's all of this terrible programming that kids get, and it even would be the case with regards to your mother.
The programming, you know, the kids show that you just have to believe.
Follow your heart.
Like, all of this is just programming people to hedonism, which is just do what feels right, you know?
And don't let other people get between you and your dreams.
It's like, well, what if your dreams are just for, you know, sex with a bad guy?
Like, there's nothing, just follow your heart, follow your dreams, just believe and all of that.
I just want something more, but that more is never defined.
It's just some weird self-actualization thing that just ends up turning out to be pure hedonism.
Okay, so she would have not...
Were your grandparents?
Religious on your mother's side?
Did they try to raise her religious?
No, not really.
I mean, I think God was mentioned, but we never went to church or anything like that.
And as far as I know, they didn't either growing up.
Okay, all right.
So, do you have any idea, or did you, I mean, you've obviously spent countless hours around your grandparents.
Do you have any idea, with regards to your grandparents, How they taught morals.
How did they teach right from wrong, good from bad?
Hmm.
Um.
No, I know that they were also kind of conflict avoiders.
Um.
And it always seemed like they were a bit afraid of my mom, of telling her the truth.
I think it would be hard to teach her.
I do think my grandpa...
He spanked a bit when they were younger, although he never did that with his grandkids that I'm aware of, and not with myself, but I think, you know, he did spank, you know, and she would get yelled at because my mom snuck out a lot.
But I don't know if they, like, sat him down and had conversations about morals.
No, no, but you, you were there, right?
Right.
And they knew that you were in a situation where, I mean, corruption was all around you, right?
The corruption of your mother, the corruption of your father, the evils of them both.
And so, what did your grandparents do to teach you right from wrong?
I don't know if we really talked about that a lot.
I was a quiet kid.
I was a goody two-shoes.
They said I was never any problem.
I didn't get in trouble a lot.
I don't remember anyone specifically talking to me about good and bad.
I have always had a strong moral compass, a fear of getting in trouble.
So I always try to do everything perfectly right and follow every rule and not cause any conflict or anything like that.
So I don't remember a lot of people sitting me down.
I think more or less if I were to do something that someone didn't like, it was more being distanced from me, emotionally distant.
So I don't remember anyone kind of using words to explain to me why things were right or wrong or I wasn't physically.
Punished.
I think they did use timeout occasionally.
But yeah, I can't remember specific conversations where they taught me right from wrong.
I just know that I've always kind of been the good one, the golden child, I guess, as my siblings like to call it.
So how do you feel about what we're talking about?
Because this is kind of a missing thing, right?
Yeah, I feel frustrated.
I feel like I had to learn a lot of things the hard way and figure things out myself and kind of learned what was wrong and right and how it made me feel, even if I had to learn it multiple times.
So yeah, it was lonely.
I didn't really have people to talk to me about life things.
Later on, though, I would have my maternal aunt, my mom's younger sister.
We talk.
Quite frequently.
And she used to be one that would not want me to talk too negatively about my mom or giving her a fair chance.
But the more we talk, the more she's realized it.
And even now, her relationship with my mom is distant as well because she's starting to recognize the same behavior.
So she's someone I've been able to talk about it a little bit more that will understand.
But anyone else in the family, I couldn't.
My grandpa was frustrated that I... I haven't used my mom's name, and I'm having three girls, and I haven't used her first name or middle name as part of their names.
So he was really pushing that for this third one, and we still didn't.
In my third one, we have come up with a name with her, and in her name, there are two letters that are the same that are also my mom's initials.
And when I told her the name, she pointed that out, and she's like, oh, look, that's my name.
And I was like, yeah, I guess.
She goes, well, I'll just take what I can get.
So it's just anything I tell her, there's always, and I'm off topic of the question now, but anything I tell her, she always finds a way to bring it back to her, even if it's something very tiny like that.
Right, right.
I would certainly suggest not naming a daughter after your mother very strongly.
Okay, so your grandparents knew that you were surrounded by some pretty foul behavior, right?
Yes.
I mean, it impacted them, too.
He also would break into their house, and he stole a gun that my grandfather's father had made for him, and he stole my grandma's wedding ring.
So they knew he was stealing, they knew he was pawning, they knew he was using drugs in and out of jail, and they knew he was physically violent.
I had mentioned that to them at least once before getting in trouble for it.
And my grandma would occasionally come over and see the types of situations we were living in, how filthy the house was, and she would...
I'd break my mom for it and she would spring clean the house and it turned out, you know, terrible again the next month.
But I mean, yes, they definitely saw the situation we were living in and knew the types of people that we were around.
So yes, I do think, you know, they could have done more.
I mean, they let us, you know, come stay at their house.
We would have weekends with them.
I remember, you know, those were my reprieves.
My grandma would always have ice cream.
She loved watching Lifetime movies and doing scratch-offs.
So we would go over there and we would do all that and it was fun.
But then we'd go back home and that's where we were a lot of the time.
So I always felt like they could do more, but I feel like they're always terrified of my mom, just like I am.
Just saying anything to her that's honest or truthful or making her mad because her reactions are just so, I don't know, they're obnoxious.
I think everyone just avoids mentioning anything to her because no one wants to deal with her.
Okay, so what sort of reactions does your mother have?
I have not really been very direct with her.
It's hard to remember from a kid, but it's more like she does get angry by it.
She looks betrayed.
She gets frustrated.
It's very childlike reactions, right?
She'd probably leave.
In a huff, on a puff, like slam the door.
So I think my grandparents were also kind of afraid that if they did make her to Matt, then maybe they wouldn't get to see us as often.
Because there were times where my mom would move out with us and not give them our address.
I mean, we were still in town.
I know my grandpa would drive around trying to find us in all the different neighborhoods.
But so I think they were kind of afraid of that.
It just seems like everyone is afraid of her.
Even my aunt was not wanting to confront her on these things.
Nobody does want to.
Okay, so her reaction was temper, yelling, and then basically hiding the kids from her parents.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Do you think that your grandparents should have gone for custody of you guys?
Yeah, that's crossed my mind.
But then I feel guilty for thinking that because I just have this...
Okay, I'm sorry.
I'm going to have to beg you to stop being such a female just for the course of this conversation.
Because when I ask you sort of a judgment thing, you go straight to feelings.
And listen, I love women and I'm thrilled that you guys are all so emotionally sensitive.
But I'm a moral philosopher.
I'm certainly not a therapist, right?
So I appreciate that, you know...
I'm asking you a judgment question and you immediately go to feelings.
And again, I love that about women, but I'm going to beg you to just try and stay with me on the judgment side of things.
Because the feelings you already have, I think it's the judgment that probably could use a slight upgrade, if that makes sense.
Yes.
Yeah, I think you're right about that.
Okay.
So should your grandparents have gone for custody?
Yes.
Okay.
Why didn't they?
I mean, they would have been aware of it, right?
Yeah, yeah, they were definitely, they had full knowledge of it.
None of it was a secret to them.
Yeah, they were aware of the violence.
I mean, they knew of the drug abuse.
They had a son-in-law who was stealing from them, right?
Yeah.
Like an entire congregation of gypsies, right?
So they knew that the children were in severe danger, like you and your siblings were in severe danger.
Drug addicts can be, of course, I don't have to tell you this, they can be, Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, that did happen.
And we did have someone come to the door looking for him and money.
And not only was he a drug addict, but he was also, you know, supposed to be dealing it and would often do his own supply.
And then, you know, have to deal and pawn things in order to pay back.
Right.
So so guys could have come to collect and could have, you know, attacked the family.
Right.
Yes.
So they knew we were in danger.
They were aware of these things.
Maybe they didn't have all of the specific stories or specific circumstances.
The only reason they wouldn't have is that they didn't ask.
The only reason they wouldn't have these stories is that they didn't ask.
I mean, you would have told them, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you tried to.
I did tell them once, and then I probably wouldn't have told them again because then I wouldn't be allowed to go over there anymore.
Right.
So I wouldn't have been honest with them.
After that.
But even after, you know, my dad, you know, was out of the picture, more or less, no one talked about it.
That period of my life was done.
No one talked to me about it.
No one was like, oh, I remember that, you know, period with your dad.
Like, how are you coping with all of that?
Or how are you coping with finding out about your biological father?
Now you have not just, one, that's abandoned you, but two.
No one talked to me about that.
I did, you know, kind of write the poetry.
Now, do you know why?
Do you know why no one talked to you about this, these things?
I guess they just didn't want to talk about any of the negative things, or they wanted to pretend like I was fine.
They didn't want to deal with me not being...
So when I say, why didn't they talk about it, and you say they don't want to, that's going from judgments to feelings again.
I'm sorry, I'm just going to keep nagging you about this.
Right, so why wouldn't they want to talk to you?
Like, now that your father was out of the picture, why wouldn't they want to talk to you about the effects that he had on you?
And how much you suffered.
I guess if I had to think of it in a judgment way, I don't want to because they don't care.
No, it's not because they don't care.
I don't know then.
It's because they're guilty.
Oh.
They're terribly guilty at not having acted to protect the children they claim to care about.
I mean, the fact that you guys weren't dead or injured.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
is deeply shameful.
Yeah, I hadn't thought about it like that.
So they couldn't bring any of this stuff up because they were afraid of, why didn't you do more to help me?
That question, right?
Mm-hmm.
If you had asked them, I know it's pretty theoretical, but if you had asked them, why didn't you do more to protect me?
Why did you keep sending me back to this violent, dangerous, drug, den, hellhole?
What would they say?
I don't know.
I've never asked them that.
I know, but if you did.
I don't know what they would say.
I guess I'm trying not to use feelings because I feel that that's how my sentence was going to start.
I feel like they would say...
The only thing I can really think of is no one ever wanted to say anything to my mom.
Didn't want to alienate her.
I don't know.
Yeah, I don't know what they would say.
Well, but you just go for custody, right?
I mean, you document.
I mean, you talk to a lawyer, right?
Mm-hmm.
And there's lots of free legal services that would help in these kinds of situations.
Lawyers usually have to do a certain amount of pro bono work, like a free work, and this would be a complete, this would be like a poster child of what lawyers would want to do free work for, which was getting children out of drug dens, right?
Right.
So they call legal aid, they get contact with the lawyer, and they say, our grandchildren are in a house with a violent drug addict.
And the mother won't leave.
And then the lawyer says, I'm no lawyer, right?
So I imagine, I'm just guessing, right?
And don't tell me where you live, right?
But I imagine the lawyer would say, well, you need to document this stuff, and then we've got to get you in front of a judge so you can get custody.
So in that process, perhaps they didn't do it because then it airs their dirty laundry, or they feel like they're failures also because their child is doing this to their grandchildren?
Is that why they did it?
Well, I'm not sure why they didn't.
I mean, they would probably say, well, your mom would get wind of it and then she'd Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
He's stealing from everyone.
He's violent.
And people are coming to the house looking for drug money.
I mean, if that's not a situation where the grandparents can get custody, then I don't know what would be.
Now, maybe they get temporary custody and there is a certain amount of time where there's a bit of wrangling and so on.
I get all of that.
I mean, you have to do what's going to keep the children safe.
If you care about the kids, really, right?
Yeah.
And they are the only people in the environment that, I think, as far as I understand it, they're the only people in the environment that could have done that.
Yeah, they are.
My maternal aunt, she was also there, but she was younger.
She was going through college, and she had kids of her own.
So, yeah, they were definitely the best choice of people in the environment.
Well, it could have been any number of people, right?
Yeah.
I mean, if there's an aunt involved.
So, not only did they not do it, but when your dad was out of the picture.
Now, when he was out of the picture, he was like, gone, gone, right?
Yeah.
I mean, it was generally, when he's out of the picture, he was in prison for a couple of years.
So, you know, we'd visit him on the weekends.
He'd send letters or whatever.
But, you know, yeah, he was...
No, but when your mother left, I think you were 12. Do I remember that right?
Oh, yeah.
That time, he...
I mean, I think he still sent letters and tried to call occasionally.
But, yeah, he was gone.
Right.
So, at that point, at least, he's no longer really a factor.
So, your grandparents can talk to you without fear of him, right?
Right.
So.
Yeah, but they don't.
No, not about him.
Not about my mom, who went into a major depressive, if I can diagnose her myself, episode after he was gone for good, which is also right after she had my sister.
So she was really depressed.
Why do you say, and I'm not disagreeing with you, of course, because it's your mother.
And you know her infinitely better than me, but why do you say she went into a depressive phase?
She was in bed a lot.
I mean, the house is dark.
It always kind of was that way.
She's always kind of lived in like a cave.
It's one of the reasons I don't like visiting her now amongst many.
So her house is just like a dark cave.
They don't turn on any lights and they don't open the windows.
But anyways, she was in bed a lot.
I raised my sister a lot, even from 12. I would get up in the middle of the night, give her a bottle.
Because otherwise my mom would leave her in there crying for a longer period than you should because she was not getting out of bed.
So I would even sleep on the floor next to her crib so that I was right there and I could get her.
Because I know sometimes my mom would get frustrated that she was being woken up.
So I took care of my baby sister a lot.
And I had done the same with my brother, but I was only three and a half.
But I was still changing his diapers.
I was the first to know he had chicken pox.
So I can, I guess, recognize whenever.
Sorry, you mentioned the name there?
Was that?
Oh, sorry.
No, that's fine.
That's fine.
I just wanted to make sure.
I think you mentioned him before, so I just have to make a note to take the name out, but that's fine.
Okay, go ahead.
So yeah, that's my dad.
I am...
Oh yeah, so anyways, I was doing a lot of...
I mean, generally she was emotionally unavailable, but she was particularly more so then.
I just remember her being in bed a lot.
She'd go to work and just not want to do anything else.
She's kind of like that now, I guess.
So yeah, she was just really depressed after that, and that was frustrating.
But she did finally, I guess, get it together over the next couple of years.
And when I was 15...
Sorry, how long would you say that she was fairly non-functional for?
I mean, she was still going to work, but just not available to me or to my siblings, really.
I mean, I didn't do all the caretaking in my sister.
She was, of course, in and out.
There were times where it was bad, I guess, for maybe about a year or so was the worst of it, and then she was slowly easing out of it.
So she had energy for her job, but then just retreated or cocooned at home.
Is that right?
Yeah, and she does that to this day.
Well, yeah, as you say, she only talks about her.
And you don't have to tell me her job exactly, but what field does she work in?
She works for a staffing company.
She was a recruiter and now she's worked her way up to the boss at her small office.
So she's doing better for herself financially than she ever has now.
But anyway, she got that new job.
But when I was growing up, she did a lot of waitressing.
That's kind of what she did when I was growing up.
And then when I became a teenager is when she got her job in the staffing, actually.
And she was making more consistent money.
And has she kept herself relatively attractive over the years, or has she let herself go?
No, not at all.
Damn.
She let herself go.
Oh, she let herself go?
Yeah, 100%.
Yeah, to the point of, you know, her health is just terrible.
So she's let herself go.
Is that because of weight or lack of exercise or alcohol, cigarettes?
She doesn't.
Yeah, cigarettes for sure.
She doesn't drink or do drugs now.
So she smokes cigarettes like a lot, like a pack a day, maybe more.
I don't know.
And she eats terribly.
She doesn't drink water.
She doesn't exercise.
She's not like, you know, she's overweight, but she's not morbidly obese.
But yeah, she's not taking good care of herself at all.
So, depression.
Again, I mean, we're just a bunch of amateurs not knowing what we're talking about, but I don't quite get depression from that.
I get self-pity.
And I get self-pity and maybe some guilt.
Because if she still has energy for work, then she's not.
Catastrophically depressed.
Yeah.
So she gets up, she goes to work, she has energy for work, she doesn't get fired.
And in the recruiting industry, now, was she working in the recruiting industry back when you were 12 or was it something else?
It started somewhere around there.
It's hard to remember the back start date.
So in the recruiting industry, you have to be kind of peppy and positive.
I mean, I've worked with recruiters in the past.
And that's why one of the reasons I was asking if she let herself go is because recruiting is one of these, it's like being a pharmaceutical sales rep for women or real estate.
It tends to be what attractive people do.
Yeah, at that point, that was definitely when she started.
I wouldn't say it was right then, but that's when it started.
Okay.
So she's going in and she's got to be peppy and positive.
I mean, my father had real catastrophic depression.
And he was not really able to function.
And so the fact that she can sort of get up and...
And my mother had a sort of mental collapse when she passed 40 and spent all day in bed for quite some time as well.
But she didn't go to work.
She didn't do anything.
So the fact that she can get up and go to work is interesting and it means that it's not an involuntarily catastrophic state.
Because she can get up and go to work and be peppy, which she'd have to be in order to succeed as a recruiter.
Yeah, she was definitely peppy at the office.
I mean, even now I go to her office, everybody loves her at the office.
I mean, she has let herself go physically, but everyone loves her.
They think she's great.
She's hilarious.
Fun to be around, all that.
So maybe at 12, you know, you're right about that.
But there was a stage when I was like 15 or 16, she had bought a house with the help of my grandpa.
On the down payment and it was the first house she ever owned and I finally got my own bedroom at 15 before that I shared with my brother I was really excited about it and we lived there for you know a few years, but then she did Stop going to work and lost her job and stopped paying the mortgage But that's also around the time that I found out she herself had gotten Addicted to some drugs.
She had had some A car accident, pain, where she had started taking some painkillers, and then she continued to take them.
So it may have been more that than a depressive episode.
It's hard to remember the specifics, but she was just completely emotionally unavailable during all of high school.
Is that because she was taking the opiates?
I don't know how long she was taking it.
I mean, because she's not taking them now, as far as I know.
I think that's just generally, she's been...
emotionally unavailable.
I've not really ever felt an emotional connection with her.
Oh, no, you can't.
No, no, you can't.
No, because you can't treat a child that badly and then have an emotional connection with the child.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, if you want to treat someone in a cruel or vindictive or neglectful manner, you have to dehumanize or depersonalize them.
Mm-hmm.
Because otherwise, it's like hurting yourself.
Like, the reason why we want to empathize with people is that hurting them is like hurting ourself.
And so the only way that she could be that cruel is if you were not a real person to her.
I see what you're saying.
Like she can't put herself in your shoes.
She can't imagine what it's like being her own daughter.
She can't imagine what you prefer or what you like.
That she's only focused on her own thoughts and feelings.
And other people are just these kinds of objects that drift in and out of her view.
And she sees if she can use them for her own benefit in the moment.
And so the people at work, she could use for her own benefit in the moment because she could get paid and have a job and a career and a place to go and stuff to do.
And she got positive feedback, right?
So at work, she's like super charming and fun because people give her positive feedback and they pay her.
But then at home, well, the kids need things from her.
They don't provide her that kind of benefit.
So she just kind of goes into her shell and crawls into bed because you guys don't.
Feed her in the way that people at work do.
You don't pay her and you don't give her positive feedback.
In fact, you need things from her that she would have to empathize with you in order to provide, which she doesn't want to do or can't do or whatever.
So she just crawls in her shell.
Yeah.
I mean, animals, hedonists operate usually at the level of animals.
And animals are just stimulus response, right?
They go where the food is.
They don't go where the food is not.
And her positive feedback, her dopamine, was at work and not at home, so she puts effort in at work to get positive feedback, but she doesn't put effort in at home because she doesn't get positive feedback.
Not because of anything that you guys are doing wrong, it's just that you're there to be there for your kids, not for them to make you feel better.
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly it.
I always felt like she found us kind of annoying.
Sure, sure.
Well, again, you're not feeding her ego in the way that work is, or her bank account.
So, what did your father go to prison for?
If you know.
I don't know if you know.
I think a few times he got caught with drugs.
One time he caught stealing a car.
And every time he got caught, he always resisted arrest.
I know one story they love to tell when they were in good places with each other, my mom and dad, about how he kicked the window out and ran out of a cop car.
It's hilarious.
Oh, they found that funny, right?
Yeah, yeah, that was hilarious.
It's a funny story.
But they would tell once he was back in our life and, you know, we were normal or whatever they wanted to call that.
So they would tell these funny stories about how he did that.
And so I think that always tacked on a couple extra years.
I do know he ended up getting, like, on his third felony, got in a lot of trouble that one.
So I know he was committing felonies, but I don't know all of the specifics.
And I do know that after he was out of our life, I was an adult at that time, a young adult.
So maybe, I don't know, late teens, early 20s.
He got caught cooking meth in a house with a child his child from another woman A younger like a baby So he got caught with that and you know got thrown in prison again.
That one was a long time And then I do know he got out At the end of 2023 because he contacted me even though they have internet in prison now, so he could have done it then but um Anyhow, so yeah, he's been in and out a lot and mainly drug-related.
Right, okay.
Yeah, it's always amazing to me that a guy goes to prison for years, and then they just let him go out and go back to his family.
Amazing.
It's amazing to me, but of course, that's the government for you, right?
I mean, of course, like in a real free society, in a rational society, there would be huge amounts of follow-up with regards to his family and how things were going, right?
Yeah, you would think.
Yeah, they know he's a violent offender.
And already has endangered a child by cooking meth, which can blow up, right?
In a house with a child.
Yes.
Yeah.
So, yeah, so you never improved.
All those years of prison and rehabilitation.
Oh, no, no.
People don't.
No, they don't.
They don't improve.
That's just a big, it's a big fantasy.
It's the feels over the reels.
Well, I just want him to get better.
I'm sure he's learned his lesson.
It's like, nope.
That kind of stuff, in my view, right?
And I think there's some good data to support it, but that kind of person, they don't get better.
They can't be fixed.
And of course, you know, his brain chemistry is completely fried from decades of drugs, right?
So there's no, like, original dad in there that you can reach and fix.
Yeah.
It's sort of like trying to find healthy lungs in your mother.
It's like there's no sort of emergency healthy backup lungs that you could reach which aren't damaged.
Like, the brain is just another organ, and if you keep frying it with drugs and doing bad things, then chemical dysfunction and your conscience...
The way back is cut off.
There's no way back.
There's no way back to your original or even remotely healthy self.
This kind of used to be understood, right?
And people would just put away forever.
Like three strikes kind of thing.
But then everybody got sentimental and, you know, all of the bad people in society that want everyone destabilized because they want to let criminals out of prison.
It's like, oh, here's a situation where the three strikes just wasn't fair.
And so, you know, California goes back and forth on this pendulum all the time, right?
Which is...
Oh, you know, the poor criminals, they all had bad childhoods.
It's like, yeah, they did.
And then there's lots of people who aren't criminals who had bad childhoods.
And even if they had bad childhoods, what does that matter?
Let's say that there's some pit bull that keeps attacking children.
You say, oh, yes, but the pit bull was abused as a puppy.
It's like, that's really sad, but he does still keep attacking children, so it doesn't really matter what happened as a kid.
The important, like, for the puppy, it matters what he's doing as an adult, right?
But this excessive sympathy.
This is why I'm sort of pushing back on this.
I feel stuff, you know, which we all have and I sympathize with, I really do.
But, you know, we have to have the judgment.
Because the I feel stuff, feelings are great, but they're morally neutral, right?
So you can feel a great love of virtue and happiness and virtue and all of that.
And you can also feel that the guy who beats you up is super sexy and you want to bang him.
Great from here to kingdom come, right?
So feelings are morally neutral.
And so this is why when you say I feel...
I'm like, I think that's important, and I obviously don't want to dismiss or neglect feelings, but at the same time, at the same time, we also do have to judge, right?
And that's sort of where I think things need to come, things need to arrive at.
I'm here.
Okay.
Because, yeah, no, you're right, where I'm stuck.
It is in the feelings.
And I don't want to judge my mom, and I don't want to make the hard decisions and have the conversations with her.
I did try to have a conversation with her for one of the first honest conversations ever.
Also, last December 2023, I guess that was a big month for me of trying to just come to terms.
Maybe started with that event with my husband, but really just trying to come to terms with everything.
And also, I guess, trying not to be so afraid of speaking up for myself and for my kids before I just let everyone walk all over me.
You know, I tried to keep the peace and not cause any conflict.
But I finally, you know, decided to have that conversation with my mom in December.
You know, like, hey, you know, can we talk about my childhood?
And she's just like, what?
Why?
And it came out of nowhere.
She called me when she was at work, of course.
And I was going to wait and tell her at a better time because at work is, you know, maybe not an appropriate time.
It's insensitive.
But anyways, that's the only time she ever calls me.
So it just came out because I was frustrated.
You know, and I was telling her.
You know, this Christmas, you can come over on Christmas Eve, not on the day, which is just the ultimate betrayal.
If you knew the traditions of our family for Christmas, it's Christmas Day or bust.
And so that was an ultimate betrayal.
And then I said, we also need to, you know, talk about my childhood.
There's some other things that are bothering me.
Because she's like, why are you setting these boundaries?
But, you know, she didn't say those words, but why are you doing this to me?
Was more the words, why am I not allowed to be there on Christmas?
I can't be there when, you know.
The girls wake up and see their gifts from Santa.
Why don't you want me there?
Blah, blah, blah.
Are you punishing me?
And I said, I think there's more to it that we need to talk about, Mom.
But no, I'm not punishing you.
I don't know if I was or not.
No, she can only think about it in terms of what's good or bad for her.
You can't think that, well, okay, yeah, listen, you had a tough childhood.
Let's talk about it.
She can only think about, like, she can only go straight into selfishness and manipulation, right?
And giving you these sort of binary options.
Are you punishing me?
It's like, that's not part of the equation.
I just want to talk about my childhood.
But because it's going to feel negative to her, she can only think of it in terms of being punished.
She can't think of it in terms of what would be beneficial to you.
Yeah, that's exactly right.
And then it does make me think that I'm punishing her.
It makes me feel like I'm being cruel.
Yeah, you're being programmed to say, well, I don't want to punish her, therefore she can come.
I think it's just a manipulation.
Well, I don't want to punish her.
Therefore, she should be allowed to come over on Christmas Day because I don't want to punish her.
So you're being given this.
It's very manipulative, right?
It's just being given this false dichotomy.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
I did hold my ground on that boundary, but it ruined the holiday for me.
I mean, I tried not to let it ruin it for my kids or anything like that, but, you know, the way she behaved on Christmas Eve when she did come over wasn't outward.
Yeah, petty, pouty, vindictive, nasty.
Yeah.
You know, it's passive-aggressive, I assume, or the usual grab bag.
For sure.
I mean, she tried to hide it well, but I could tell.
And then on Christmas Day, I just felt really, really guilty.
So again, with the feelings, but it was just overwhelming because it was the first time I had ever decided to do something that I wanted to do over what was her best interest or what she wanted to do.
So that first boundary was really hard for me to set.
So why, and I'm sorry, I'm obviously open to hearing the case, and it's not like it's my judgment that matters, but I guess I'm just kind of curious.
Why is she in your life?
What positive benefit do you get from that?
And I'm not saying there isn't, right?
I can't see it quite yet, and I'm happy to be illuminated.
No, that's something I've been trying to answer this year.
Because she's just going to get sicker, right?
Yeah.
And then you're going to end up taking care of her just as you took care of her children.
Yeah, I am worried about that.
What is going to happen when she can...
No longer work.
I think that...
If I were your husband, the key word would be punt.
No, it would be like, no, she can't.
No, no.
Like, no, we have her kids.
She didn't take care of you when you were a kid.
You sure as heck are not taking care of her when she gets old and she's not being around my kids because she's toxic.
Yeah, that's his stance, exactly.
He says those exact things.
It does start, you know, a lot of arguments with us because I have a hard time with that.
I agree with him pragmatically.
No, I'm not trying.
I mean, we can have an argument if you want, but I'm just curious, genuinely curious, what the benefits are.
Now, if somebody puts a knife in your ribs and says, give me your wallet, you know, most people would give the wallet over, but they don't say, it's my benefit.
They just say, look, I don't want to get stabbed.
I'm just trying to avoid a negative.
I'm not in pursuit of a positive here.
So, what is the benefit?
Yeah, I've not been able to come up with one, and that's a question I've been thinking about a lot lately.
I think I am just avoiding the negative, the fallout with it.
So both of my siblings who are adults live with her and are not self-sufficient.
How old are they?
Just roughly 20s or 30s?
Early 30s, and my sister is in her early 20s.
Right.
And they both live with her.
My brother is not working.
He has had a job, but not in a few years.
So he stays at home.
So does he live on your mom's income?
What does he live on?
Yes.
Everything from necessities to even wants.
He has really great, really nice gaming equipment.
So that's how he spends most of his time.
And then my sister, she's in her early 20s.
She did go to college.
She has tried to follow my footsteps.
She's copied a lot of things I did, but I can't quite get her to get out of the house.
And it's also something I'm worried about doing because my mom would see that as the portrayal, too.
I don't think she really wanted any of us to leave or have our own lives.
So my sister, yes, she just graduated college last May.
And she's not, you know, moved out or got a job or...
Done anything with her degree and I fear she's going to turn out just like my brother but with a college degree.
So I've been trying to be more direct and have more conversations this year.
Not with my brother yet because he's going to be a more difficult one too as well.
He will shut down and react the same way.
Sorry, has your brother done, you said he hasn't worked in a couple of years.
Does he have any romantic relationships?
No, he hasn't since his early 20s, so maybe a decade.
Yeah, so, I mean, he's toast.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, he's toast because, I mean, no quality woman is going to want to have anything to do with a guy who hasn't dated in a decade, still lives with mommy in his 30s and doesn't have a job, hasn't had a job in years.
And, you know, honestly, I mean, there's no conceivable road back from that.
Does he use weed or some other dissociating mechanism to avoid what should be a big panic in his life?
Really just the video games.
He doesn't do drugs.
He will occasionally drink alcohol, but usually around other people.
So when it comes to my house, it's not something that my mom has in the house or that he does.
But if he does come to my house and we have beer in the fridge or something like that, he drinks all of it.
But at home, he's not drinking it.
Mainly, he just plays video games and he vapes.
But just nicotine, not marijuana or anything like that.
So yeah, he channels out in video games.
He plays the online computer ones.
So he's got...
You know, his online friends.
Yeah.
But he didn't have any physical friends in real life.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay.
All right.
So you don't have much hope for him, right?
No.
And again, with the feelings, I feel guilty.
I feel like I should have done more, that I should have pushed him.
I was always afraid to say anything or to upset him or to upset my mom.
I need to talk to my mom about like, well.
He should get a job or he should do this.
She gets frustrated.
They shut down.
Sorry, what is it that he does when you try to talk to him or help him?
I haven't tried to in a long time.
No, but when you did, you said, and I'm obviously not disagreeing with you, but you said that you would try to change things.
Yeah, he will come to the awareness and he gets emotional and he knows that he should be doing something.
But he's, I guess, stuck.
He will acknowledge it and that he wishes he could be doing something that his life was different.
The one time I talked to him recently was actually this past year.
I guess it's been my year to try to stop not saying what I want to say, although I'm still working on it.
But anywho, he was a bit intoxicated, which is really the only time he opens up to me.
I was not.
I haven't really.
I've been drinking in the last five years other than maybe an occasional glass of wine.
I had kids and it just doesn't interest me anymore, which he says makes me no fun anymore.
But I've never felt better.
I stopped smoking, stopped drinking.
I had kids.
And I love them enough for my life, so I like that part of it.
That aside, so he had been drinking, so he does open up, but he will shut down quickly.
My mom was inside playing...
Sorry, what do you mean by shut down?
I'm still trying to understand, and I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm just not sure what that means.
Yeah, let me ask you to be more specific.
So they're trying to tell me about my mom, because she's been the way she's been forever, but this particular past year, they think she's gotten worse.
And I guess I could agree.
Um, with that as well.
So she got really into this online game and she also met virtual friends, including a man, um, which she has not told me about.
I, she told her sister, my aunt and, uh, my brother and sister live with her.
And so they've found out about it, but my mom's not spoken to me about it.
Um, so I've only heard everything through hearsay, but apparently she met a man.
Uh, and what?
Yes.
Yeah.
Sorry about that.
Yeah.
We're, we're back and, uh, I'm, I'm all ears.
Alrighty.
Where were we talking about?
I'll see my mom on holidays now, but now she rarely calls or checks in or has any interest in my life or my kid's life.
I had invited her to my daughter's dance recital, and she had marked her calendar so that she was going to come.
It gets close to it, and she has something where she...
Can't come.
And she always talks about how I live too far away because we moved outside of my hometown and we live a whole hour and 15 minutes away from her, which is just too far of a drive.
So that's her constant excuse to not come visit me.
So yeah, we rarely see her and apparently she's gotten worse this year and more associated.
And even this year when I told her that we weren't going to do Christmas on Christmas Day, that she could come the weekend before.
So I didn't even give her Christmas Eve this year.
She didn't even care.
So I don't know if this new guy has changed things or I don't even know what level of involvement she has with him or if they're just chatting online.
I have no clue because she hasn't talked to me about it and I haven't asked her about it.
What has she dated since your dad left?
Has she dated much?
No.
Right.
Not at all to my knowledge.
Okay.
So I don't know.
I don't know if it's because I had that call with her in December 2023 or I started setting boundaries and I've done ultimate betrayal and I put a riff in the relationship from her standpoint.
So I don't know exactly what the causation is, but it all happened shortly after that.
So in the beginning of last year.
Yeah, she's latching on to someone else, right?
Because she's not sure that you will be available.
Right.
I was her, you know, backup plan, her retirement plan.
And I felt like when I got pregnant with my first, that that was like kind of a betrayal to her, her reaction.
When I told her, It was not great.
It wasn't, like, awful.
Or maybe it was awful.
But it wasn't like she got angry.
I guess she just seemed more shocked, almost disappointed, just, like, confused.
Like, what?
Yeah, yeah.
It's like this thing that's always done what I want is not doing what I want.
Like, what the heck, right?
Mm-hmm.
Okay, so this new guy is going to be trash, right?
I mean, he spends all his time playing this video game just like her, so I imagine.
Well, it doesn't matter.
I mean, whether it's the video game or not.
I mean, if he's going to get together with your mom, he's going to be trash.
Yeah, probably.
Because that means he doesn't have any particular judgment with regards to character or personality.
Your mother is not a virtuous woman.
She's very corrupt and certainly has done great evil and is unreformed, right?
So it means that he wants to have sex with an evildoer, which means he's trash, right?
He's corrupt himself.
Yeah.
So if you're around when your mom gets into this relationship, She's going to suck you into all of their stupid drama and you're going to lose your life to that.
Okay, so we're still back on the question of what is the value your mother brings to your life?
Yeah, I guess she doesn't.
No, I guess it's weasel words, right?
Don't dissociate on me.
Let's make the case one way or the other.
No, okay, so then, yes, she does not.
I don't bring any value to my life.
In fact, she brings me heartache.
And she puts you in opposition to your husband because he's trying to protect you, right?
Yes.
It causes a lot of arguments between us because I get very sensitive about it.
It's been different this year.
I'm agreeing with him more.
Sensitive?
What do you mean sensitive?
Because being sensitive is generally a good thing, right?
So you're characterizing it like your husband is trying to protect you.
And you're being sensitive.
Yeah, I don't know if that's the right word then.
It's really not the right word at all, but it's a word that it's a big pat on the back for you.
Oh, look at me being so sensitive.
My husband is such a brute.
You know, that kind of stuff, right?
I'm sensitive.
He's not.
I see what you're saying.
I would just get very combative when he would bring up my mom.
I think it was part...
At the beginning, I really didn't want him saying negative things about my mom.
That's my mom.
But then it more turned into, stop trying to make me do these things and have these conversations with her because I really don't want to.
Because I wanted to avoid the conflict.
See, I know, but that's the hedonism.
That's the hedonism.
So you think it's an argument that you don't want to do something.
Why would that be an argument?
Why would that matter, that you don't want to?
I mean, it's interesting to know.
Right?
Like, if, you know, your father was addicted to drugs, right, and you obviously didn't want him to be addicted to drugs, and he's like, well, I don't want to quit.
What argument would that be?
Does that mean he doesn't have to quit?
Or shouldn't?
That's the hedonism right there.
You say to your husband, well, I don't want to have these conversations.
And you think that is the end of the discussion?
And then, if he says you need to have these conversations, you accuse him of bullying, controlling, pushing, right?
Yeah.
Right.
So you have this feeling, I don't want to do it, therefore you don't have to do it, but that's the legacy of your parents.
Yeah.
The question is, are you lying to your mother by omission, by not talking about the things that are on your mind?
Yeah, absolutely.
Right.
So then your husband is saying, If you're going to be in a, quote, relationship with your mother, stop lying to her all the time.
And you're saying, well, I don't want to.
I don't want to stop lying.
And for men, this is like, what?
But for women, that feels credible.
It feels credible to say, I want to just keep lying my ass off to my mom and not have anything real pass between us.
Yeah.
And he finds it unfair because he has had these difficult conversations with his parents.
And what's the status of your in-laws?
We don't have any contact with them now.
And is that a benefit to you?
Yes.
Right.
So the fact that your husband had these difficult conversations doesn't talk to his parents, which is a benefit to you and your family, but you won't give him the same benefit.
Yeah, and he has mentioned that.
That's selfish, right?
Yeah, I can recognize it's selfish.
It's unfair.
Okay, so the fact that it's selfish and unfair means what?
It's immoral.
Means what?
Means what do you have to do?
I have to do it.
I have to be honest.
I have to stop lying.
I think so.
I mean, do you want your teenager to grow up knowing that the most important thing is to lie your ass off to your mother?
No.
Because that's what you're modeling.
Yeah.
Just hide everything from your mother.
Only talk about surface stuff and never touch on anything real and never be honest directly.
Because that's what you're modeling.
That's what you're going to model to your daughters.
That's what you are modeling.
Yeah, you're right.
And I definitely don't want that at all.
Well, you kind of do because that's what you're doing.
When people say, I don't want that at all, but they're doing it, then that's not clear, right?
Yeah.
I see.
Do you want your kids to tell you the truth?
Yes.
Do you think it's reasonable to ask them to tell you the truth when you spend your entire relationship with your mother lying your ass off?
No.
Okay, so that's the moral thing, right?
Mm-hmm.
So then, and I'm not saying, sorry to interrupt, I'm not saying that it's easy, and I'm not saying don't respect the feelings of resistance.
I'm saying do respect those things, but don't let them run your life.
Because your parents ran their lives based on feelings and preference, and how did that work out?
Not very well.
Well, your parents' lives are a complete catastrophe.
Yeah.
But then I don't, what is, I guess I'm having, I've been, like, he's like, what is stopping you?
Why won't you do it?
And I have trouble answering that question other than, you know, then she wouldn't be in my life.
And then it's like, well, wouldn't that be?
Well, would you like to know the answer as to why it's so tough?
Yes, I would.
Because you feared, with some fairly good reason, that you would have gotten injured or killed if you had been open and honest with your parents when you were young.
Yeah.
And I'm not saying that they would have thrown a bed frame at you or anything like that, but from an evolutionary standpoint, cold, selfish, mean, vile parents would very often not protect their children.
Or if they had a bunch of kids, the one who was questioning them and making them feel bad would be the last one to rescue from a predator or a fire or the last one to feed when food is short.
So we have an evolutionary programming to not be honest with our parents because the kids who were honest with bad parents genetically often did not make it.
So you are hardwired, as am I, as is your husband, you are hardwired to not confront your mother because If you had done that when you were a kid, it might have gone very badly for you.
Yeah.
And I did try it, and we did schedule a conversation after December 2023 to talk about my childhood.
We did actually put one on the calendar and everything, and we had a conversation.
It's been a year now.
And she started the conversation with, I had to take two Xanaxes before this call.
It's like the first sentence that came out of her mind.
So thereby setting the tone of how nervous she was about, you know, how scared.
And you can't really talk to someone when they're drugged.
Like therapists, if you show up drunk at a therapist's office, they'll just send you home because you can't talk to someone who's drunk.
Yeah.
Sorry, but how did that conversation go outside of that?
I definitely, I guess, went easy on her.
I had, you know, kind of what I wanted to say.
And then I had what I said, which was more than I have ever said to her, but it wasn't everything that I wanted to say to her.
And I tried to talk about things and, you know, she was crying and she was upset.
So it was all about her feelings?
Yeah.
And, you know, sorry that, you know, I was such a terrible mom, things like that.
Did she ask you any further questions about how you felt or what your experiences were?
No.
Okay, so you got, sorry to interrupt, but you got everything you needed to know from that conversation, didn't you?
Yeah.
But she collapses into self-pity and manipulation and doesn't ask you anything about your experience.
So what else is there to talk about?
Again, I'm open to hearing the case, but I can't see it.
Yeah, I guess at that point there is nothing.
I guess I was hoping that maybe she would care, maybe she would change.
She's not going to change.
Okay.
Yeah.
She's not going to change.
How old is she?
She's in her mid-50s.
Okay.
She's 20 years older than me.
Okay.
So she is not going to change.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And then I tried to bring up some of the more recent things.
So not just my childhood, but the things that she's done in my adulthood that hurt me, which was her reaction to my first pregnancy.
And then also my second pregnancy, she came up to my house to stay the night at my house to watch my...
Firstborn while we were at the hospital.
And we were only at the hospital one night with my secondborn.
And then we came home.
And she stayed one night with us.
And she had taken like five or six days off of work.
And, you know, we had our kids back to back.
So it was really tough.
Still is.
To be watching them, you know, that little.
They're only 18 months apart.
Anyways, so she stayed one night.
And the next morning, she was like, hey, I'm just, I ordered you a grocery pickup order and then I'm going to go home.
And I was like, what?
But I didn't say anything at the moment.
I just was like, oh, okay.
Sorry, are you really going to, sorry to interrupt you, are you really going to tell me another 10-minute story about how selfish your mother is?
Yeah, that's where I was headed.
Like, why are you telling me this story?
What are you, I mean, she dated, married, and had children with a criminal!
Mm-hmm.
But you know, also, in her 50s, she's kind of selfish.
Yeah.
Like, ask me, why are you telling me this story?
Do you think that I don't understand your mother's nature?
Do you think one more story is going to help or change that?
No, I suppose not.
So why are you telling me this story?
I guess, why am I always so, and my husband asked me the same question, like, why am I always so surprised every time she disappoints me?
Why am I always expecting that she's going to behave in a completely different way than she does?
Well, no, but you're not telling me a story where she is even showing a hint at that.
You're telling me another story where she acted selfishly and betrayed you.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
So, but why, you know, we've been talking for like, you know, coming on for two hours, right?
And you've told me a lot about how bad your mother was, right?
And you want to spend another 10 minutes telling me about how bad your mother is.
And that's because you want sympathy.
Mm-hmm.
And you want people to say, oh, that's so terrible.
She shouldn't have done that.
You're in the right.
Big hug and all of that, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
Because she won't give that to me.
Okay, but it's on you now.
The fact that you invited your selfish, semi-criminal mother over to babysit your kids is on you.
The fact that you want sympathy for me for exposing your mother to your children?
And exposing your children to your mother and you around your mother?
You want me to look at you like, oh, poor you?
You chose to have a completely toxic, selfish person around your children.
And then she messed up your head, which meant that you were less emotionally available for your children.
And you want sympathy for that?
No, not when you put it like that.
No, you want sympathy for being a drunk driver.
I won't give it to you.
Because you're not acting in the best interest of your children.
Is it in the best interest of your children to have you screwed up around your mom and have Christmas ruined?
No.
So then why are you doing it?
Why are you not putting your children's needs first?
And why also aren't you listening to your husband?
Why are you voluntarily putting yourself and your children and your husband in toxic, dysfunctional, destructive situations with absolutely no foundational reason?
That's the ultimate question.
It's selfish.
You're following your feelings.
You're being a hedonist.
Well, it's difficult for me to put boundaries up with my mom, so I'm just going to expose my children to it.
I really want this pit bull that keeps biting my mom and my kids, right?
I want this pit bull.
I like this pit bull.
So I'm just going to keep it around, even though it keeps biting my children.
Would you respect someone like that?
No.
No, and I see what you're saying.
It's not about you.
You're a mother.
It's not about you anymore.
You know that, right?
And of course you know that.
I'm not saying you're a bad mother.
But the great thing about being a parent is your decisions become really freaking simple.
What's in the best interest of my kids?
Yeah.
Right?
Is it in the best interest of your kids for...
Your mother to be around them and you and your husband.
No.
So that's simple.
I'm not saying it's easy, but it's simple, right?
And I'm not telling you anything you don't know deep down, right?
And this is the same decision you wished your mother had made, was it?
In the best interest of you and your siblings to have your father around.
Was it?
No, of course not.
No, but she wanted him around, you see.
She found it difficult to set boundaries, so the kids got screwed up.
So you've got to stop acting like she acted.
I'm not saying that you're the same.
Please understand me, right?
I'm not saying that you're the same.
But the principle in this particular instance is the same.
You're acting hedonistically at the expense of your family, just as your mother acted hedonistically with your father at the expense of her family.
And I get that you're not doing 1% to your kids what your mother and your father did to you, but you're still doing some of it.
Because when you're around your mother, you say you dissociate, right?
And you have trouble staying connected with your own kids.
That's because you have toxic maternal narcissist sludge swishing around in your brain.
How much time do you spend thinking about your mother and the relationship and talking about it with your husband and trying to plan whether you should have a confrontation and trying to figure out Christmas?
My God!
A lot.
This is a tax.
It's probably 20% of your brain activity during the day.
Yeah.
So that's terrible.
And that's unfair to your children.
They didn't ask for this.
They don't require it.
It's bad for them.
stop paying this crazy tax?
Well, recognizing, you know, all of this, you know, which my husband's told me too, I still don't...
Why can't I do it?
Do what?
Be honest with my mom or...
No, why?
Sorry, you've known her for well over 30 years, right?
Yeah.
You've had a confrontation with her a year ago that went precisely nowhere other than into her narcissistic self-absorption, right?
Mm-hmm.
Now that she's got some new guy, she's tossed you aside like yesterday's fish wrappings, right?
So help me understand, what do you need to confront her about?
What do you need to talk to her about?
What are you expecting to get?
Why do you need to confront her at all anymore?
Yeah, at this point, I don't expect to get anything from her.
Okay, so you don't need a confrontation.
So what happens?
Now?
Do I just stop inviting her to anything?
Are you asking me or telling me?
Yeah, but, um, yeah, I mean, I, I want to be telling you, but I'm still I can't get there.
You sack up and do what's best for your kids.
It's not about what you get to or don't get to.
You're waiting for things to feel right in order to do the right thing.
Mm-hmm.
That's not how virtue works.
That's not how protecting your kids works.
Doing the right thing is doing the right thing when you kind of hate doing it.
Otherwise, virtue would be hedonism and you'd just do whatever felt good.
You know, like if you want a diet, you have to suffer.
If your mom's going to quit smoking after smoking a pack a day for decades, she's going to suffer.
When your dad quit drugs, he suffered.
Right?
So saying, well, why can't I get there and it doesn't feel right, what has that got to do with anything?
Yeah, I see your point.
It's not about what you feel.
It's about what's best for your kids.
Your husband goes to work, right?
He's a stay-at-home dad at the moment.
What's your income again?
I work in finance.
I make over six figures.
Okay.
Do you always feel like going to work?
No, especially not since having kids.
Okay, so there are times when you desperately don't want to go to work.
Yep.
So you go to work, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So...
Your mother is nice at work and nasty at home and you're disciplined with work and hedonistic with regards to taking steps to protect your children.
Like, this is the pattern, right?
Discipline and virtue are for outside the home.
Hedonism is for inside the home.
Because your husband sees you be disciplined, right?
He sees you crying.
When you have to go sometimes, right?
Hating having to go.
Right?
And he sees you being disciplined and not being hedonistic.
And you don't sit there and say, you know, going to work just doesn't feel right.
I'm going to stay home.
I just can't quite get there emotionally to go to work, so I'm just going to stay home.
You're like, nope!
I get up and I go to work because that's my obligation.
That's my discipline, right?
Yeah.
So your work boss gets authority over you.
And your husband doesn't.
Your work boss says, come into work, and you're like, yes, sir!
No question, no argument.
Doesn't matter how you feel, you do it.
And your husband says, your mom's toxic, and you're like, no, I don't feel that.
No, I can't quite get there.
No, it's difficult emotionally, right?
Which means that you're married to your boss and not to your husband.
I mean, I can agree with him and recognize that she's toxic and awful and I can say all the honest things I want to say to her to my husband.
It's not that I disagree with him and say that she's great for me or has any benefit.
It's just I can't seem to tell her or if I were to not, I guess I just avoid it.
Just let her come for Christmas because I don't want to tell her she can't.
And I get what you're saying.
No, no, but you've said this a couple of times about yourself that you're conflict avoidant?
Yeah.
No, you're not.
I'm not.
No, you just shift the conflict to the most reasonable person.
You appease the most aggressive person and that shifts the conflict to the most reasonable person.
In other words, your mother will attack you and make you feel terrible when you set boundaries and your husband won't.
Yeah.
So you're not conflict avoidant.
You just shift the conflict and punish the most reasonable person in your environment or the least scary person in your environment.
Yeah, you're right.
So, yeah, because conflict avoidance is another form of, like, self-praise or almost self-pity or something like that, but because you won't set boundaries with your mom, you end up fighting with your husband, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Because he's working desperately to try and protect the family, and you won't participate, right?
Yeah.
And he's already a stay-at-home dad, and so he's not got the most traditionally masculine role in the family.
Do you have a male boss in finance?
Yeah.
Okay.
So he sees you completely obeying your male boss and fighting with him.
Yes.
Yeah, that's a contentious part of our relationship, too.
Well, it should be.
We've discussed, well, not just the male boss, but just in general, our roles.
You know, we've talked about switching roles, him going back to work and me staying home.
It would be, you know, a significant financial change, but we wonder if that would be a better dynamic.
He does want to go back to work, even though he is very good at, with the children, he is good at that role.
But he still can't breastfeed, right?
Right.
Is it best for your children that you're home and breastfeeding?
Yeah.
So again, I'm still trying to understand the decision processes here.
If it's best for your children that you be home and breastfeeding, why are you going to work?
I asked myself, would it be best for my children, for me, their mother to be home with them, and the father to be working, if it also meant a significant change in our...
You know, finances.
I don't think we would necessarily be unstable.
We've done a good job of building that up.
Significant change in your finances.
What do you mean?
Like, I mean, I understand what you mean.
Do you think that babies care about money?
I mean, in the long term, I guess.
No, no.
Hang on.
Hang on.
Do you think that babies care about money?
No.
Do you think that your baby would rather not be breastfed?
Because they might get a couple of extra toys?
I'm sorry, I'm genuinely trying to follow this line of thinking.
If this seems like hedonism, it seems like you guys want the money and you're not thinking about what's best for the babies.
Well, I think I just thought about the financial stability in the future.
I mean, my husband would probably make a third of what I made.
We would have to sell the house.
We'd have to make significant.
Changes and it would impact our long-term financials.
Do you think that the babies care about the size of the room or the mother who's in it?
Yeah, the mother that's in it.
That's what I cared about when I was a kid.
So tell me about the scenario down the road where you can't go back to work when they're older and make money.
Yeah, I guess I could.
I could do that.
I mean, what do you mean?
You guess you could.
I don't...
You're in fog land again.
What do you mean?
You guess you could.
No, you're right.
I could always go back to work later.
And, of course, your husband, I assume, is not a dummy.
He listens to this show, right?
So he can up his skills and up his income over time, right?
Yeah, and I have mentioned that to him.
He is, you know, terrified of changing roles.
What kind of job am I going to get?
Where am I going to work?
And I said, you know, the first job you get, maybe it's not great.
But I do try to build good confidence.
Well, he's in his 30s too, right?
Yeah.
So he's got to have some skills, right?
He does.
He's lacking in confidence in that area.
He's afraid he won't be able to support the family.
But I have told him the same as you said.
He can build it up over time.
Maybe he won't like the first job.
Maybe that one won't be great.
But he could continue to work and continue to look and find better things over time.
In what field does he have experience?
He worked in audiovisual field.
He does filming and recording and things like that.
He's also been a teacher.
Before, in the same field, teaching AV to high school students.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
All right.
I mean, I'll tell you this, man.
As an older dude, right?
As an older dude?
Kids don't care about money.
They care about connection to and intimacy with physical skin on skin.
I mean, I've been broke in my life.
I've had some money in my life.
I have some of the best memories of being broke.
No, I think, I mean, that's what we are planning to do.
We have hired a realtor.
We plan to list a house.
We couldn't afford if we switched.
We are planning on listing the house, and when it sells, then we can get settled elsewhere.
I do plan to quit, but I know it's terrified he's not sleeping.
He's really nervous about it, but he also wants this, too, and he thinks it would be best if I were to be able to stay home with the girls for a while.
We've talked about homeschooling and things like that, so we are headed in that direction to change, I guess, our roles and what's going on, because also, I work long hours, and by the time...
I'm off of work.
There's not much left of me.
How many hours, including your commute, what time do you normally leave and get home on a weekday?
You know, I actually work from home, but I'd say I'm in my home office.
I work with people internationally, so I start my day around 5 in the morning, and then, you know, I work until about 5 in the evening.
So I do try to carve out that evening time, but by the time I get there...
12 hours a day?
Yeah, give or take.
I mean, I will come out for lunch if I can get away.
I get that.
I get that.
I understand that.
I'm not saying that you're locked in from the outside.
12 hours a day with three kids under five?
Yeah.
What are you doing?
Hang on.
What are you doing?
I mean, not to bore you with work, but it's like a team where if you do a good job, you get all of it.
The responsibility.
No, no, but what place has you worked 12 hours a day?
That's weird.
Mm-hmm.
Isn't it?
Yeah.
No, it's definitely also an issue I need to set with my own work-life boundary.
I am working on switching roles in my company to go back to my previous team, which was better than this one, so I'm trying to move there.
You work weekends?
No, I do set that boundary at the very least.
So you're working a job and a half, right?
Yeah.
With three kids under five?
Mm-hmm.
Does your boss just keep handing you more work?
I don't understand this.
Yeah, I mean, I do try to finish my work as quickly as I can.
I do get frustrated if I can't finish, you know, by...
No, no, no, no, not answering my question.
So you're back to your feelings, right?
So how do you end up working a job and a half?
Because that's exploitation, right?
I mean, are you salaried?
Are you getting paid hourly?
Are you getting a lot of extra money for working time and a half?
No, I'm salaried.
Okay, so how is it that you are working, you're being paid for eight hours or you're being paid for seven?
Hours a day, right?
Because there's usually half-hour lunch, two 15-minute breaks, give or take, right?
I know it's salaried and all of that, right?
Yeah.
So you're being paid for seven and a half hours and you're working 11, 11 and a half, right?
Counting lunch or whatever, right?
Yeah.
So why are you working time and a half?
Why are you cutting your salary by that much?
Because you're getting paid $100,000.
Oh, you said six figures, just more or less, right?
So you're being paid 50 bucks an hour, but if you're working time and a half, then you're not making 50 bucks an hour, you're making much less.
Because you've got to spread it out.
You say you're making six figures, but you're not if you're working 60 hours a week.
You're making way less than that.
Yeah, I see what you're saying.
I mean, it started out really slow.
No, no, no, no, don't care.
I don't care how it started.
I care what it is.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
So how did it end up that you work in?
I just took on, I did the job well and I kept getting more responsibilities and I kept thinking it would help me to grow in my career.
But I have recognized that it's not good.
Yeah, because you're only making two-thirds of your salary, right?
Yeah.
You're leaving a third on the table.
Yeah.
I'm giving them more than, you know, they're giving me, and it also just makes me unavailable, too.
It makes me tired.
Oh, no, you can't function in any way, because all you do is crash at the end of the day, right?
Yeah, I have a hard time, you know, I have to really go somewhere to get that energy to play with my kids, because I miss them all day, and that's my time with them.
That's what I get, you know, three hours before bedtime.
So, no, I have noticed that, and that's why we were talking about changing roles.
Well, it also screws up your marriage.
It does.
I mean, what time are you going to bed?
I try to go to bed by like 9.30.
And our kids, you know, bedtime is by 8. But sometimes, you know, they come out.
You have no time with your husband.
Yeah, except on the weekends occasionally.
But even then.
But you're also recovering from your work week.
Right.
But you also, you don't get emails or anything like that.
Is it dark on the weekends or what happens?
I just feel like I gave them enough during the week that I do truly set that boundary on weekends.
And even when I take time off, they used to call me on my time off days on my personal phone and I stopped answering that.
And so I was trying to set boundaries with them too.
It's just taking me some time.
So now I don't answer anything on the weekends.
I don't answer anything after five on the weekdays.
I don't answer my phone on PTO. So I was really trying to push back on these different boundaries.
And then I've been trying to find a different role internally now because I'm pregnant.
I didn't want to change companies.
They do have good maternity benefits.
So I was planning to stay working until we have the baby, use my maternity leave, and then we can save up a little bit.
And then just not go back?
I will have to go back or I have to pay some of it back.
So I probably would work the rest of this year.
And then I would give them my notice.
When are you due?
At the end of June.
So what do you mean you would work this year?
I mean, you'd be off for maternity leave after June, right?
Right.
Then I'd have three.
It's only going to be about 12 or 13 weeks.
And then I'd have to go back for at least a month or two to not have to pay them back for that.
And then so ultimately it'd be closer to the end of the year that I would give them.
So you would have to go back after four months?
A little less than four, actually, because now that my husband is a stay-at-home dad, I'm considered secondary caregiver, not primary, like I was in my first maternity leaves when he was working.
So it's a little bit, it's only three months, not four.
Right.
So not setting boundaries is not just with your mother.
This is the consequence of you not having boundaries with your mother is you can't set boundaries at work.
Yeah, I've noticed that I can't, I have a hard time saying no to...
No, that's not true.
You have a very easy time saying no.
It's just your husband and children.
Yeah, I knew you were going to do that.
No, mommy's not available.
No, we can't have a sex life.
No, we can't have quality conversations.
Yeah, you're right.
You say no to your kids and your husband all the time.
You have an easy time saying no.
It's just because they don't bully you.
Maybe your boss does.
I don't know.
But why?
Why are you working 12 hours?
With three kids?
Yeah.
No, you're right.
My husband brings that up too.
Whenever I say I have a hard time being honest or saying no, he says yeah with everyone but me.
So you're completely right that I don't have a hard time saying no or avoiding conflict.
Are you religious at all?
Not really.
Did you have marriage vows that include forsaking all others?
No, we didn't do the traditional religious vows.
Do you believe in monogamy, right?
Yes.
Now, do you think that monogamy just means sexual activity?
No, I would be upset if he were to have an emotional connection with another woman, too.
So not just physical.
Do you know that it also encompasses financial exploitation?
Yes.
So you're having an affair with your work because you have an outside relationship that is harmful to your marriage.
Now, having a job is fine because you need income to have a marriage and have kids, right?
Yeah.
But you have a relationship, a financial relationship.
You're being paid for a job that is harming your marriage.
Mm-hmm.
So it's fine having a friendship outside of the marriage if it helps the marriage, right?
Or at least it doesn't harm the marriage.
And it's fine having a job if that helps the marriage because you have a place to live.
But you have a job that harms the marriage and harms the relationship with the kids.
And it's fair to say, I think, puts an unfair burden on your husband as a stay-at-home husband because three kids under five or a couple of kids under five is really tough for 12 hours almost straight.
Yes.
So, again, I go back to, what are you doing?
No, it took a long time to realize that.
I always told myself I was going to have a good, stable job.
I wasn't going to ever deal with the difficulties of money that my mother did.
So I think I felt like the job was a lot of my identity.
And that changed a lot after I had kids.
It just took me a very long time to get here.
Sorry, what has changed a lot?
I mean, you're still working.
60 hours a week.
So what has changed a lot when you had kids?
Recently made the decision to where we are going to list the house.
Then that was the main reason why he was like, well, just quit then.
Just quit your job.
And I'm like, well, I can't quit.
We have this, you know, stupidly expensive house.
We have to sell that first.
I can't just quit when we live here.
So we finally made that step.
We've got a realtor.
We're listing it at the end of the month.
And once it sells, we can, you know, start making those changes.
And we were thinking about it earlier, but then my husband lost his job.
And that's when he started staying home with the kids.
Sorry, how long ago did your husband lose his job?
18 months.
And who was taking care of the kids before that?
Only our first was born before that.
So she was in daycare.
The first year I had paid for her to...
I have a nanny because I worked from home and she stayed here with me.
And then also my husband was a teacher.
So for part of that, he was home for the summer.
And then we moved out here to a small town for my husband to get another teaching job.
There wasn't really any nannies out here and they had a daycare with the school.
So she went there for nine months.
We didn't feel good about it.
And how long was she in daycare?
I mean, how many hours a day?
I would drop her off at nine.
I had a different role at that point.
point I wasn't working as many hours.
And then my husband would pick her up at four.
So she's there for about seven hours a day.
And then, you know, she wasn't, he had, he was a teacher, so she was out for holidays and extended Christmas break.
So she was there about nine months.
And then he was not asked to return to his teaching job.
And he stayed home.
Our second was born during that time, but she was with me.
So your oldest has had four Primary caregivers, right?
You, the nanny, daycare teacher, and now her dad.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
All right.
Okay, so last question is how you said that there's been no violence from your husband over the last year.
Is that right?
Okay, and what was the primary reason for contacting me?
I just want to make sure, because we've had a good old jawbone, which is great, but I just want to make sure if there's a central issue that we don't close off the call without talking about it.
No, I think we are talking about the central issue.
He's been urging me to call you for a year, because he's been trying to get through to me himself about why I can recognize these things about my mom.
Oh my God, he's been urging you to call me for a year?
Yes, ever since he had his first call with you, and it helped him to realize...
Why don't you listen to him?
Because my mom has more of a hold on me than he does, and I need to shake her off, and I need to stop.
Yeah, for faking all others.
Yeah, monogamy means that no one comes between you and your husband.
Yeah.
Your loyalty is to your husband.
No one comes between you and your husband.
No one, no one, no one, no one, no one.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so that's the main reason for calling you.
He's like, if I can't get through to you, maybe.
Someone else can, that you think is more objective or outside of this.
If someone else tells you, then maybe you will finally do what needs to be done.
And are you happy in your relationship as it stands with your husband?
Yes.
When we're able to talk about our emotional connection and the attributes he has, I am happy.
I think in the dynamic we have, it's not really, I don't know, the dynamic we have, I guess, with the roles we have, I'm not happy.
I've been working since I had kids, which I should have made that decision earlier.
I felt like I had to work.
My ability to earn money was better than his.
I feel like that's where I was better placed.
And then he could be home with them.
So they weren't in daycare.
Maybe that will be okay.
So I think that dynamic and my inability to quit, but yet continue to complain about how I didn't want to be doing it, drove him crazy, rightfully so.
And then also my inability to stand up to my mom and do.
What needed to be done are two major issues.
But otherwise, you know, yes, I'm happy in my relationship with him.
I'm happy he can come to me with these things.
And also, he has a lot of his own issues, but he is able to be honest about them and he's working to try and fix them.
And, you know, we share a lot of the same things that we want, how we want to raise our kids.
So yes, I think if, in my mind, if I finally do stand up to my mom and I do what needs to be done and say what needs to be said and not let her continue to control our life and then, you know, I quit my job at least for the next couple of years, then our relationship could be happier.
So I've, now after talking, I feel like I'm the one that's been standing in our way.
Okay.
Good.
Well, look, I obviously didn't want you to, like, there's one thing I wanted to talk about, Steph, and we didn't get to it, so.
Yeah, in summary, I'm really, really sorry about what happened.
It's heartbreaking what happened with you as a kid.
That's the bad news, obviously, was all the terrible stuff that happened with you as a child, for sure.
And big sorrow, big hugs, big sympathy, you know, brother and sister in suffering, you know, all of that.
The good news is it releases you of obligations with regards to your mother and your father, should he ever float back into your life when he needs or wants something.
You know, I had a terrible time as a kid, but, you know, I'm of the age now where my friends are dealing with aging parents.
I mean, the suffering is all in the past.
The benefits are all in the present.
And, you know, I would rather have had a good childhood and be heavily involved in dealing with aging parents.
I would rather have that.
But given that I didn't have that, I don't have the significant.
Time, heartache, financial, and emotional challenges of dealing with aging parents.
So there are upsides.
It's a grim path to be a victim of child abuse and neglect, but there are upsides, which is...
My father is dead.
I don't even know what the status of my mother is, but I'm sure I would have heard if she died, but I barely think about them.
That's not the case with a lot of my friends who are dealing with aging parents.
So there are upsides, and it's a grim second prize, but it's not the end of the world as far as that goes.
But yeah, I do think, you know, just wake up and say, what's best for my kids?
What's best for my kids?
What's best for my kids?
And you don't want your kids to grow up seeing you appease the most aggressive people and sacrifice the interests of those who are trying to reason with you, because that will lend them to be susceptible to peer pressure as a teenager.
I mean, when I saw what was going on in a lot of the kids around my daughter's age, I mean, it's hell.
And so if your kids are susceptible to peer pressure in their teens, you will look back and say, I really think it was a bad idea to work all those extra hours when they were little.
And we have a big house that's...
Full of phones with speed dials to rehab clinics and the police and lawyers, and you don't want to get that way, right?
So it may not be that extreme, but even if they're just in danger or have stalkers or get an STD or, you know, just really grim friends or dabble in drugs and, you know, the drugs these days can be incredibly dangerous because, you know, their drugs are sort of half weapons of war from hostile foreign powers laced with fentanyl and crap like that.
So the connection that you have with your kids when they're young is the protection they have against peer pressure.
Because you say, I'm going to do the right thing and not be susceptible to peer pressure.
And what's coming from your mom is just a form of peer pressure.
It's a form of, I'm going to bully you until you do what I want.
I'm going to approve of you if you do what I want.
I'm going to disapprove of you if you don't do what I want.
And that's going to translate into susceptibility to peer pressure for your precious children when they get older.
And given that the peers are even more dangerous now than they were ever, and I think it's going to get even more dangerous in the future, protecting them now with a strong relationship with you and your husband.
I mean, everyone talks about vaccines and all of that or whatever, right?
But the real vaccination is a connection with parents that gives them the shield against peer pressure.
And I think that's what I would strongly suggest you focus on.
Okay.
Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
Yes, absolutely.
All right.
I appreciate that.
And really, it's an honor to talk to you.
And congratulations on solving so many of the problems.
In your family tree.
It's truly heroic.
And I would give you the biggest medal on the planet if I could.
But all I can give you is a big hug and my appreciation for what you and your husband are doing.
Thanks, Steph.
I appreciate it.
And thank you for your time and for your guidance.
I really appreciate it.
All right.
Take care.
Bye-bye.
You too.
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