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Dec. 12, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:11:38
MOTHER'S BOYFRIEND A CREEP?!? Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Hello.
Hey, how's it going?
I think I've misplaced my question, but I can talk about the issue at hand, if that's okay.
Yep, hit me.
Right, so I guess the core of the question was, am I trying to punish my mother?
This came to a head recently where, well...
My mother and my sister had gone to a party.
At this party, there was a gentleman in his late 50s who had made a move on my sister.
My sister is extremely young, just turned 18. My sister notifies the guy, I'm a minor, blah, blah, blah.
Mom steps in and starts talking to the guy.
Shortly thereafter, a couple of weeks later, they start dating, trying to raise the issue to my mother.
Mother then turns on me and states, Me and my sister had confronted my mom, and she turns to us and says, well, it's your sister's fault.
With how she was dressed, she let the guy on.
That's why I came to approach her.
And so this became a bit of a problem within the family, and I've been going to other family members and just trying to raise this issue of, look, we have an issue here where there's a gentleman in the household who my sister's uncomfortable with.
But I've been met by accusations of, the first one was, I have an Oedipal complex.
I don't want my mom to start dating people.
That's the reason why I'm stepping into this issue.
Or the fact that I'm trying to punish my mother due to past traumas and conflicts that we've had.
So that's the whole issue.
Sorry, are you talking to male or female relatives here?
Both.
I've talked to my aunts and uncles.
Okay, and is it the case that both your aunts and your uncles are doing this silly Freudian psychoanalysis stuff?
No, that was my aunt.
Okay, so I was going to say that's not a particularly male response to say, ah, Oedipal complex, that would be more of a female psychologizing bit of nonsense to avoid the actual argument and attempt to appeal to your insecurities.
Okay, so what did the men say in the family?
Oh, so the word from them is, yeah, no, I think there's a, well, There's an issue with your mother.
However, she's really unwell.
You know, she's had a hard time.
Parenting isn't easy, and we're bound to make mistakes like this.
So she's really unwell, did they say?
Yeah.
And what does that mean?
Like, physically?
Well, she was just in hospital a couple of months ago, and she's come out now.
So back then, there was a bit of a scare that we might have lost her.
And so they're just saying, look, you know, it hasn't been the easiest year for her.
And this is a chart of happiness, really.
So, you know, let's just let things drop and let's let her enjoy her happiness whilst we have her.
Okay.
Interesting.
So the happiness of your mother is very important.
The happiness of your sister is unimportant.
Essentially.
Yeah.
I think, like, my sister's now, because I live on my own, my sister still lives with my mother.
She's been messaging me and letting me know that it's extremely awkward in the household, and I've been talking to her.
And it seems like old cycles of what I've had before with her, where she just almost dehumanizes you in a sense.
It doesn't matter what you want, it's more what she wants.
And as long as she gets what she wants, everyone's happy.
But if you displease her in any way, if you cause any problems, then it's trouble.
Okay, got it.
So, how old is the relationship between your mother and this guy?
Ooh, very young.
They've been seeing each other for about 11 months.
Okay, so not that young.
It's not like a month, right?
Yeah, not like a month.
Okay, so, mother's boyfriend creeps on barely legal sister, right?
Yeah.
And what are your sister's opportunities to not be living with your mother?
Can she come stay with you?
She can't.
I'm in a completely different part of the country, and she needs to go to school.
And so where her college is, that's where my mom's house is at the moment.
So we're now looking for, I guess, ways for her to, I guess, get her own accommodation.
But that'll take some time to prep.
Why?
Just in terms of, well, job and everything else, getting her to support herself and things like that.
I mean, can you help her?
I can help her, yes.
Yeah, I can.
Okay.
Doesn't she need to get out?
I mean, if this creeps around, this could be negative.
It could actually be quite dangerous, right?
It could be dangerous, yeah.
I guess my thinking was that, well...
How can, well, this is a very simple issue in terms of my mom's file.
How can you not see what you're putting your daughter through?
Could you not simply, could she not deal with it rather than me, I guess?
Could your mother not deal with it?
No, in terms of, I see it as a very simple issue in terms of my mother.
It's just a simple modification of behavior.
I don't know what you're talking about.
What is a simple issue?
What modification of what behavior?
I don't understand what you're talking about.
Sorry.
Slow down, man.
Bring me along for the ride.
I'd like to join you on whatever journey you're on.
Sure.
What I mean is, it's...
Like with friends, you know, you see your friend is doing wrong.
People have raised this to your friend.
You know, you raise an issue to your friend and your friend goes, ah, I see the error of my ways.
And then they try to change.
And that's how you facilitate the relationship.
No, she doesn't.
So do you think that that's going to start happening?
How old is your mother?
Not exactly.
Is she in her 50s or 60s?
Late 40s.
Late 40s.
Okay.
Yeah.
And you're obviously older than your sister, right?
Yeah.
So your mother is pushing a half a century, and this is who she is, right?
I guess so, yeah.
No, I mean, I'm not trying to...
I mean, I view this as a gift.
Obviously, you could be completely wrong about all of this, but this is such uncontroversially horrendous behavior that she's giving you an immense gift.
I mean, I get you don't want to open the present, but it is an immense gift.
It's so absolutely horrendous, outlandish, appalling, disgusting, vile, predatory, and enabling.
What possible ambiguity could there be left as to the nature of your mother?
Oh, yeah, no.
I guess there's a rub, because culturally, for us, it's...
There's this whole stigma around, if I get where you're heading here, it's, you know, I guess, branching off from your mother and just sort of living your own life.
You know, she is who she is, and she's not likely to change.
Sorry, are you calling me with the argument that there's a cultural norm invented by bad parents that you always have to spend time with bad parents?
Is this your counter-argument to me?
I mean, I'm not sure who thinks you've phoned, but...
Maybe you got the wrong number.
Maybe you're looking for, you know, philosophy conformity 101 guy, but I don't know who, I'm not sure why you're calling me and saying, well, but, you know, there's this cultural standard invented by abusive people that you can't ever draw boundaries with abusive people.
And I'm like, well, yeah, of course they would do that, right?
Yeah.
News at 11!
Government schools tend to be pro-government.
I mean, okay, so there's a cultural standard invented by abusive people which says you always have to spend time with abusive people.
Yeah, I get that.
It's the tax, right?
It's the tax and the involuntary relationship.
So, I hope you're not calling me to tell me that this standard exists as if I didn't know.
I also hope you're not calling me To tell me that this standard is something that should be respected.
No, no, no, no.
And look, I mean, I'm happy to hear the arguments, but it's like saying, you know, Steph, I brought truth and reason to people and they're uncomfortable with it.
I'm like, yeah, and?
That's the deal, right?
Yeah.
But this, even by, I mean, even by the family is cult status or standards, this is pretty egregious, and it is a little surprising to me.
That no one has any problems with it at all.
Well, I think it comes down to that cultural thing wherein, regardless of whatever issues they may be in the family or we may have with a person, suppress it all just to maintain that relationship.
It doesn't matter what they're doing, the harm that they're doing, just ignore it all just to have that relationship.
But it's not about love for family.
It's not about do what's good for your family, right?
It's not about family first.
Because this guy's not family!
No, no, this is not funny.
Stop laughing.
Sorry, yeah.
This is not funny.
This guy's not family.
If family is so important, well, your sister is family, and this guy is some random creep who's banging your mom.
Yeah.
He's not family.
So, if it's, well, family, family, family, then why would you choose a non-family member, a virtual stranger, over your sister?
Not you, but why would the family member do that?
I guess my only answer to that would be they care more about just maintaining my mother's happiness.
Or they don't want to entangle themselves in this issue.
So it's just, well, status quo.
Whatever the mom says, you know, she wants this guy, cool.
You guys deal with it and we'll just carry on them by ourselves.
Okay, so then it's not about family, right?
No.
So what is it about?
Because your sister is the family member most in need of protection.
Right?
And so if they're throwing your sister to this predatory boyfriend, then clearly family and protection is not the principle.
So what's the principle?
I guess serving their own interests and needs above anyone else's.
That's too generic, though.
What does that mean in practice?
Oh, I guess in practice it's just, screw you guys, I'm getting my happiness.
What I want goes, and whatever discomfort or unhappiness that may lead for you doesn't matter.
But you just basically said the same thing with more syllables.
What is the principle that people are operating under?
Because, I mean, there's what people say, and then there's truth, right?
True, yeah.
I guess I wouldn't know how else to put it besides my own interests and needs above yours.
No, but I mean, my own interests and needs is a pretty common thing, and there's not necessarily any immorality around this, right?
No, there isn't.
No.
Hmm.
Can you just back off a bit from the mic?
I'm getting quite a lot of breathing noises.
Ah, sorry.
Thank you.
I've got one of these awful headsets.
That's fine.
Yeah.
Is that a bit better for you?
So, yeah.
So, what is the principle at work here?
Now, if we say, well, everybody just wants to make your mother happy, right?
Mm-hmm.
Well, having a guy who's this creepy and inappropriate and wrong and obviously willing to Betray her with her own daughter.
I mean, this is seriously horrible stuff, right?
So, it's not going to make her happy in the long run, or probably even in the short run that much, to be with a guy like this, right?
Right.
So it's not about your mother's happiness.
Yeah.
It's not about your sister's happiness or protection, of course.
It's not about your happiness or protection.
So what is it about?
Yeah.
I guess it's not about getting involved with difficult things, but you see that it may be difficult to...
There's an issue here with, I guess, for my relatives, they see that, okay, there may be an issue with her and this relationship, but I don't want to put myself in a situation where I'm having to work hard, or I don't want to work too hard for this thing, so I'll just keep myself to myself and just let that situation be.
Well, okay.
But, I mean, they will have to work hard if this guy, I mean, he's going to go off the rails at some point or another, either with your sister or with someone else, or it's going to be an affair or whatever it is, right?
I mean, this is just a guy with no sexual boundaries and no sense of appropriateness and no sense of the effects of his actions, right?
Yeah.
Now, but it is a guy who has accurately assessed the true nature of your family.
I mean, he's on the nose, right?
He's bang on.
He has rolled the dice, and he's got the perfect score.
Yeah.
Most people would be, like, pretty appalled, right?
And he took a big risk, right?
Because especially with social media, if your family were to say, oh, this guy, you know, creeped on the daughter of the woman he's dating or whatever, right?
And you hashtagged his name or whatever, I mean, that's a big risk these days, right?
Yeah.
Funnily enough, he's got a massive social media profile, so it would be a risk for him.
Okay.
So he accurately assessed that he was going to be fine?
Yeah.
And you're surprised, right?
But his assessment?
No, no, you're surprised.
Because obviously you went to your family members with this story in the hopes that they'd be like, well, this is appalling.
We've got to have a sit-down with your mother.
We've got to protect your sister.
Like all this stuff, right?
Yeah, yes.
So this guy, the bad guy in this conversation, according to what you say, he has a better understanding of and comprehension of and assessment of your family than you do.
That's correct, yeah.
Because he did what he did at great risk to himself, and he accurately assessed your family's pathetic spinelessness and enablement and appeasement, and you were like, no, no, no, I'm going to get everyone to be upset about this and work to protect my sister.
And I didn't get, yeah, they didn't come to protect.
Which means a bad guy understands your family way better than you do.
And I'm not saying this is a criticism, that just seems to me the empirical fact.
No, I wouldn't disagree with you there.
Okay, so listen to the bad guy.
He's telling you exactly who your family, he's doing you a solid.
He's doing you a favor.
He's saying to you, hello, wakey-wakey, this is who they are.
I sussed them out perfectly.
You don't have a clue.
You're running around drinking piss and trying to call it wine.
I know what it is.
Yeah.
Exactly.
So what are you calling me to ask about?
And I don't mean this in any negative way.
I just want to make sure I'm serving your needs as best I can.
Well, I guess...
What I was heading with this was maybe there was more a fault with me and in terms of my relationship with my mother before, maybe I was actually trying to punish her.
Maybe there could be an element in which these guys are right.
I don't understand what you mean when you say trying to punish her.
This sounds like more wine-anti-psychologizing, but I'm certainly happy to hear the theory.
Well, it's just that.
Whenever there's been issues or friction between my mother and my sister, or my mother and me, I've been, I guess, I push for her to try and change, to try to see her children as people, I'll characterize as, you know, to try and understand our needs as people.
Okay, so I understand that, and that's a fine thing to do, but you're in your 20s now, right?
I'm in my 20s.
Yeah.
So for how long have you been trying to summon an illusory conscience in your mother?
I would say for the past five or so years, I stepped out of a deep depression and I sort of looked around me and I saw, look, this family is disastrous.
It's extremely dysfunctional.
So what can I do to try and make it better?
I'd like for us all to stay together.
So let me try to at least be the voice of reason and try to bring about positive ideas.
Okay, so you've been working at this for half a decade, and this is the result?
This is the result, yeah.
So what does that tell you?
It's a fruitless endeavor.
Well, it's worse than fruitless.
It's self-destructive.
Yeah.
It's costing you everything.
How's your dating life?
I've just stepped out of a very painful relationship.
Right.
How long did that last for?
It lasted for two years.
Why did that end?
It ended because she wanted me to be someone that I wasn't.
Essentially, it was that.
She got angrier and angrier and angrier when I wouldn't fit what she envisioned who I'd be.
And yeah, that led to the breakup.
Really?
She didn't have any problems with your family?
She did.
One example that I can bring up was, after my mom had raised, that, well, my That, well, the facts of my real father.
For 20 years, I thought, this guy's my dad, turned out he isn't.
You thought what?
Slow down, slow down.
You thought what?
Sorry.
She told me the truth of my father, about my father.
No, I get that.
For 20 years, you thought what?
That one guy that we'd lived with, an alcoholic, was extremely abusive.
I thought that that was my father.
Well, you didn't think that was your father.
Yeah.
You were told.
Yeah.
Right?
You were told.
I was told, and it was reinforced, that you should try, you know, the culture of him.
Maintain a relationship with him.
He's your father.
You can't do this.
Sorry, what do you mean maintain a relationship with him?
Why wouldn't you?
I mean, did he leave?
Um, no.
Well, I guess he did if your mom's dating someone new, right?
Yeah, we ran away from him.
We ran away.
And he tried to come into our lives, but I wouldn't...
Sorry, we...
Slow down, brother.
Jesus.
Sorry.
Are you high at the moment?
Like, holy crap.
No, I'm just...
You think I'm able to follow what the hell you're talking about?
Okay, so slow down.
For 20 years, you said, your mother lied to you about your father and said, this guy's your dad when he wasn't.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's true.
Yeah.
All right.
So then you say we ran away from him.
At what age were you when this happened?
So I was about 18, 17, 18, when me, my mother and my sister, when we went to work, we got in a car and left for...
Okay, but this was your mother's decision, I assume, right?
This was my mother's decision, yeah.
Okay, so there's no we here, right?
I mean, your sister was like in her mid-teens, right?
Early teens.
Okay.
There's no we here.
I mean, you're dependent on your mother.
You're 17 or whatever it is.
You're still legally not an adult and your sister is much younger.
So there's no we here.
Your mother ran away from him and brought you with her, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And then you still didn't know that this wasn't your biological father, right?
No, no.
And when did you find that out or when were you told that?
I was told that last year.
And why were you told that?
She said that this was when I'd moved into my girlfriend at the time, and she said, you look to be stable in this part of your life right now, so I thought I'd tell you the truth of who your father is.
Okay, but why would she tell you?
She had said that the It's going to be a bit awkward, but the guy who I thought was my father, I guess we'll call him Dave, she told me that Dave had found out that I wasn't his son.
And he had then started making threats to her and making threats to my biological father.
And how did Dave find out that you weren't his son?
So apparently they'd done some DNA testing at some point.
Oh, like a blood type or maybe your blood type was impossible or something like that, right?
Yeah, and over time as he grew watching me, from him, he had said that, you know, he could see that I wasn't growing into, because I don't look like him at all.
And sorry, at what age were you when the biological testing was done or when the DNA testing or whatever it was, what age were you when your stepfather found out he wasn't your real father?
So, this was done without me being aware.
They'd done, I think, was it a mouth scraping?
To get some saliva and send it off for testing.
So this was performed, I think, when I was late teens.
And this is what I was told.
Oh, so your stepfather found out that he was the victim of almost two decades of paternity fraud?
Essentially, yeah.
Sorry, what do you mean by essentially?
No, no, that's correct.
He found out that.
And your sister?
My sister is his.
Oh, so she's your half-sister?
She's my half-sister.
And your biological father, what's his story?
Well, he didn't know.
This all was born from a one-night stand with my mother when they were still at uni.
So he had gone off and lived his life without knowing that I had a son.
And so, some 20 years later, he gets a phone call saying, hey, you have a son, this is his name, blah, blah, blah.
And yeah.
So, how did your mother pass you off as your stepfather?
Was she cheating on your stepfather with your father?
No.
So, what happened was, my stepfather was cheating on my mother with several other women.
And so at one point, he broke up with them to pursue another woman.
And that day that he broke up with them, my mom then went to her friend, my biological father, for comfort.
They had a night together.
And I think a couple of weeks later, then my stepdad comes back and they've reformed that relationship.
And throughout all that time, you know, they're obviously sexually active.
And so she'd say that she had thought that, well, I was having more sex with your stepdad, so I thought that you were his.
But I guess there'd been some suspicion.
That's so gross, man.
Yeah.
I mean, you got like a couple of guys sperm swimming around your mom and, oh, gross, man.
Okay.
Yeah.
It's a horrible picture.
And so when she told me, when I was with my girlfriend at the time...
Hang on.
So she told you because your stepdad was making threats towards you, your mother, your sister, and your biological dad?
He was making threats towards my biological father and my mother.
And the threats towards your biological father were based on what?
Did he think that your biological father knew about you?
Yeah.
He was threatening to ruin his life, that he was going to do X, Y, well, this is from what my mother was saying, that he was threatening to ruin his life, come up to where he was living, and just make a mess of it.
Sorry, threatening to, did you say to end his life?
Ruin his life.
Oh, ruin his relationship with his wife.
Got it.
Yeah.
So you fled that environment, and was your stepfather a substance abuser?
I mean, that's such crazy behavior that maybe there were substances involved, I don't know.
He was chronically drunk.
Okay, got it.
Yeah.
Okay, so you and your mother flees this guy because he finally finds out that you're not his son.
Mm-hmm.
And your mother, of course, hid this possibility from him.
Did she ever tell your stepdad that she slept with your dad?
No.
Okay.
So he would have no reason to suspect until later on, when I guess he noticed that you didn't look anything like him.
He had his suspicions.
They did the DNA testing.
He's not the father.
So then your mom flees with you and your stepsister, right?
Your half-sister.
Your half-sister, sorry.
Yeah, half-sister, yeah.
And then what happens?
So she flees with us to live with her sister at that point in time.
And he then starts coming by the house, my aunt's house, drunk, making threats.
We call the police on him several times, you know, calling her away.
She's going to ruin her.
You know, she's hurting so badly.
How dare she do this to him?
Things like that.
Yeah, it's completely monstrous behavior, right?
Maternity fraud is really one of the greatest evils around.
Well, for me, I just don't understand how she could live with herself knowing What she knew, and lying to both of us.
Sorry, what do you mean how she could live with herself?
I don't know what you mean.
No, it's, um...
I mean, it's pretty easy if you don't have a conscience, isn't it?
It is.
No, it is.
So what do you mean you don't know how she could live with herself?
What do you mean, oh, you're putting yourself in her shoes and saying, well, if I were her, I couldn't live with myself.
Yeah.
That's naive, right?
It's very naive.
Okay, so stop that.
Stop thinking that everyone's like you.
Hmm.
No, that's a flaw.
I thought that after my mom had told me this, how her demeanor was when we had that meeting, I thought that she might be suicidal.
Just, she was very somber in just talking about how her life was, well, she didn't have much of her life, and that, you know, she's tried so hard.
Sorry, so she tells you that she has engaged in almost 20 years of paternity fraud, and then she gets very somber about her own life.
Yeah.
Well, you know, that's just a strategy, right?
Yeah.
No, I didn't see it at the time.
But does that make sense?
Like, she then makes it about her, you have to comfort her, you're worried about her, you can't get mad at her, right?
It's a play.
Yeah.
In reflection, I can see that.
Okay.
And then?
Yeah.
And so, that's when my girlfriend steps in, in terms of seeing the dysfunction in my family.
So she would constantly push me to go see my mother to try to see if she's okay.
Sorry, your girlfriend would.
Yeah, because she saw the dysfunction, essentially, between me and my mother.
And did she know about the paternity fraud?
I told her about it, yeah.
And so she said, here are the obligations you have towards your mother who lied to you about your father and prevented you from having a relationship with your father for 20 years.
Yeah.
What the fuck, man?
Seriously, what the fuck?
Yeah, well, as I tell her about my biological father and this whole story, she then...
Goes into a story about her own sexual misadventures, which I just did not understand.
She was crying that, oh, how could you never tell me about You know, this big thing's happened to you about your father, but you don't think to tell me first.
Instead, you think I want to talk to my uncle.
Wait, I'm sorry, I'm lost again.
I don't know what we were talking about.
So you're telling your girlfriend about your mother's paternity fraud, right?
Yeah.
And then she says about her own sexual misadventures, and I don't know what those were.
That spiraled off for me into, I don't know what's following.
Sure.
No, she started talking about how her own sexual adventures at university.
About several guys that she'd slept with.
Sorry, what does that have to do with your mother's paternity fraud?
I don't know.
Well, in terms of her reaction, I didn't see the link.
She just jumped into the story.
Okay.
But, yeah.
Oh, I get it.
So, your mother slept around with various men.
You shouldn't judge her because you're with me and I've slept around with various men.
I can see that way, yeah.
Okay, I got it.
So she's making it about her and guarding her relationship with you and having you not judge her.
And so she's saying, well, if you're willing to accept me, then you have to accept your mother.
So she's using your mother, your mother's misbehavior, as a way of cementing your commitment to her.
I can see that, yeah.
That makes sense.
hmm but um yeah no um And you didn't sit there and say, oh my god, I'm dating someone like my mom.
She makes it about her, she's manipulative, she shows no moral backbone, no moral fiber.
How long have you been listening to what I do?
I've been listening to you for about two years now.
Okay.
No, I think, I guess I was caught in a fog.
I thought my mom was a victim.
You know, poor her, this is Oh, because the man she chose to be with was violent.
Yeah, yeah.
The man she slept with for two decades, almost, and gave a child to, she's just a victim.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, I mean, you have a survival mechanism, which is to absolve your mother of responsibility.
Because if you give your mother responsibility, what happens?
Well, I can't give her any responsibility.
Otherwise, she leaves, she's distant, or she abandons me, I think.
Yeah, so she explodes in rage and threatens abandonment or whatever it is, right?
So you cannot give your mother moral responsibility or responsibility for her life.
So you're roped into and really held at almost gunpoint You're roped into the story, I'm always the victim.
And if you ever say to your mother, you're not a victim, you've made choices, she will explode in rage, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, you have difficulty holding women accountable for their morals, because your mother would threaten to abandon you or punish you or, you know, you would experience a death threat, in a sense, from your mother if you held her accountable.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
So, why did things end with your girlfriend?
I started pulling away as I just started seeing weird behaviors.
It started with her going on about her sexual adventures as I'm trying to tell her about my father.
And then almost a struggle session when a friend had come over, her just complaining about me and all my faults and everything else, and I had to sit there and take it.
Why did you have to sit there and take it?
Oh, are you playing a victim to me now, too?
No, no, no.
Yeah, you are.
Yeah, you are.
Okay.
You are.
Because you say, I had to sit there and take it.
Why?
Did she have you chained?
No, she didn't have me chained.
Okay, so why did you have to sit there and take it?
I didn't have to sit there, but I thought by staying there and just listening, hearing her out, I guess I'm doing what's needed to facilitate the relationship.
You're doing what's needed to what?
To facilitate the relationship, you know, if I've got flaws and she wants to verbalize them this way, then I guess I'll let me listen.
And what did she consider to be your flaws?
Oh, well, you know, he rolls in bed and he bumps me and, well, this was it.
She had a list of like 15. One of them was bumping...
Sorry, she had a list of 15 of your flaws?
15 of 15 flaws, yeah.
Okay.
That was one of them.
Sorry, you bumped her while you were sleeping?
Yeah, and she said it brings about trauma for her.
And so she was like, well, I can't sleep after he does that.
It's awful.
And it's a constant thing with him.
Another one was, well, me not wanting to meet her friends.
I'd overslept sometimes when her friends come over, so that was also something that really aggravated her, the fact that I wasn't there for a friend, I wasn't there for a family.
How pretty was the show?
Not very.
Really?
You're going through a 15-point emasculating, testosterone-busting, ball-breaking struggle session for a woman who's not even pretty?
No, no.
In what way is she not pretty?
Overweight, and just with how she presented herself, just not very.
Okay, and was your mother attractive when she was younger?
From the pictures that I've seen, she looked fairly good.
Okay.
Yeah.
And do you have anything that you consider makes yourself particularly physically unattractive?
Well, I think with me, it's just a case of I just have extremely low self-esteem.
I just took her for what she was.
She asked me out, and I just thought, you know what?
What are my options, really?
Sorry, the ugly girl asked you out, and you went along with it.
Essentially.
Yeah.
That's what happened.
Okay.
Yeah.
Hmm.
And what do you mean when you say that you have low self-esteem?
I don't know what that means.
I mean, I know what the phrase means.
I just never quite understand what it means in any practical sense.
Sure.
Well, in terms of like dating prospects, I just, I don't feel that I have any value in that.
Well, I'm sorry.
Why would you think that you do?
I'm not trying to poke your insecurities here.
I'm just like, okay, so if you say, well, I don't think I have much sexual market value or dating market value, is that wrong?
My friends tell me that's wrong.
They tell me that...
No, I'm not asking your friends.
I'm asking you.
Sure.
No, I feel that.
I think that's wrong.
Okay, and why is it wrong?
Well, I've worked hard.
I've got a good job.
I've got my own house.
I keep in shape.
I, you know, I look after myself, essentially.
And I feel that doesn't quite jive with how I feel about myself inside.
As a result, that's what led to me being in that relationship, I feel.
Okay.
Let's run a real quick scenario here.
Sure.
What do you think is the prettiest female name?
Ooh, um, Chloe.
Chloe, a very nice name.
Okay.
So, Chloe, you meet Chloe at a park, and you start chatting, and Chloe is intelligent, moral, insightful, incisive, direct, a great woman, and she has a great family that love her, support her, raise her peacefully, and so on, right?
Mm-hmm.
And then you go on a couple of dates with Chloe and she says, yeah, I'd love to meet your family.
When can we facilitate that?
Because, you know, I'm not just dating you, I'm dating a whole family, right?
I mean, I want to make sure, obviously, that I like your family.
I want to make sure that they're going to be good.
If we end up getting married and having kids, that they'll be good, productive, positive, healthy people to have around our kids.
And so, you know, can we do that over the next day or two?
Well, I'd push back.
I'll push back quite a bit and try and, I guess, discuss my family.
And what would you say?
I mean, just briefly, what would you say?
I would say that, you know, there's a girl that's interested in meeting you guys, but I would like to sort of see where things go first before...
No, no, what would you say to...
Sorry, what would you say to Chloe?
You said you pushed back on Chloe saying she wants to meet your family.
What would you say to Chloe in the moment?
No, that's great, you know, that you want to meet my family.
I'll have a word with them and we'll try to see if we can arrange a date.
But with that, I guess I'll delay.
Okay, so you'd lie?
Yeah, I'd lie.
You'd lie to her?
Yeah.
Why?
Because I think if anyone from the outside world just has a glimpse of, I guess, our family, it's very clear to see where things are going wrong.
Okay, but as I said, she's smart, she's insightful, so she knows you're lying.
Alright, so let's play this out.
So then Chloe says to you, hang on, there's something odd about this.
What are you not telling me?
What would you say?
Then I'll tell her the truth and say, my relationship with my mum and my family is rather tense at the moment.
Sorry, at the moment?
For how long has it been tense?
It's been tense for a while.
Okay, how long has it stopped being so vague?
You say, at the moment, that goes for a while.
What does that mean?
A month?
A week?
A year?
Ten years?
When did you last have a great relationship with your parents?
This is going back to childhood.
I haven't had a proper positive relationship with them.
Only in the past Sort of five years or so.
I guess once I stepped out of my depression, I sort of tried to...
Sorry, you've got to slow down here.
Oh, sorry.
Okay.
I'm talking to you as Chloe, right?
So she would say, I don't feel comfortable with this lying.
Right?
So first you tried to say, you want to meet my family?
Great.
And I get that you were lying.
And then I said, what are you not telling me?
You said, well, things are a bit tense at the moment.
And then you go for a while.
And then you go, it's never been good.
Yeah.
So here's what I need you to do.
I need you to stop fucking lying to me.
Okay?
Because you're a great guy.
I'm interested in you.
But I will not stay if you lie.
That may work with your family.
That may be how you were raised, which I sympathize with.
I really do.
But I don't know what benefit you're trying to get out of lying to me.
I mean, you want me to be an intelligent, perceptive woman, right?
So you appreciate my directness, my honesty.
I hope that I have a decent amount of character and virtue.
So I'm trying to figure out what you're hoping to gain By giving yourself permission to lie through your teeth about things to me.
That's not very honorable, is it?
No, it's not.
So what's wrong with just telling the truth?
I mean, I guess it's bad, but I'm not going to blame you for your family when you were a kid, right?
I mean, we don't choose where we're born, right?
No.
So, just tell me.
I mean, this drip-drip stuff where I've got to be alert and catch you in lies, I mean, it's all very Weasley, right?
It is.
But I guess in seeing the flaws in my family, you see just how terrible I am as well.
And I guess, if I can sort of paint a pretty picture...
Maybe things will go a bit better, rather than me sort of coming out with the ugly truth of just how we are.
So you think that by lying, you're going to look better to me?
Oh, no.
No, tell me how that makes sense.
By trying to fool me and lie about some very essential topics in your life, which are going to come out.
Like, you understand, it's all going to come out, right?
No, you can't hide.
So you think that you're going to make yourself look better By clearly and obviously lying and misrepresenting everything to me.
I don't understand the theory.
I don't get what the thinking is here.
I guess, having presented it to myself there, I think it's just something that I've done.
And I hadn't put much thought into it.
No, you have put thought into it.
Again, stop lying.
You have put thought into it because you just said, well, I want to make myself better by making my family look better.
So that's a theory.
You have put some thought into it, right?
I have.
Okay.
But you don't look better by lying to me, right?
No.
In fact, I think I look way worse rather than just putting out the truth.
And look, I sympathize.
I happen to have been raised in a pretty good, honest, decent family, so I know that that's not the case for a lot of people, so I don't blame you for this or for these habits.
I'm just not sure...
That you're even aware of this.
Like, we all make mistakes.
We all slip up.
We all embellish the truth from time to time.
We all can lie from time to time.
I'm certainly not perfect.
But I do try and have that awareness.
Yeah.
And if you'd said to me, you know, when you ask about my family, I feel really anxious and I really don't want to tell you what's going on.
Okay, I can accept that, right?
Mm-hmm.
But you just kind of blithely, like so easily just skate in the direct opposite of the truth with like no friction whatsoever.
That's a little chilling, right?
Like, do you know that you're lying to me?
I mean, are you just in some sort of blind survival mode and just like a, I don't know, like some octopus squirting out ink, you're just doing your thing?
I'll go with the octopus.
It's an automatic process, right?
Yeah, it's automated.
Okay, so this is like self-knowledge 101, right?
So if...
If lying about your family to me doesn't serve you, it must serve someone, because we don't act randomly, right?
I mean, if I'm going to an ice cream shop, I lose money, but I gain an ice cream, right?
So I'm not acting randomly.
And they obviously want my money more than they want their ice cream.
I want their ice cream more than I want my money.
So it benefits, right?
Someone has to benefit from your actions.
Otherwise, life wouldn't really make any sense, right?
Yeah.
So if you don't benefit and I don't benefit and our relationship doesn't benefit from you lying about your family, who does?
So my parents.
Right.
Right.
So how do they benefit from you lying to me about your family?
Because through me lying, it stops people from coming in to see what's going on.
Right, so it will drive me away and then your parents' morality and hold over you remain unexamined and you end up without an ally, right?
Yeah.
So you end up being still controlled and bullied and manipulated by them because I wouldn't stick around for a lot of lying, right?
Yeah.
Right.
So you're in the fork in the road, right?
I mean, you're not a kid anymore.
And you're in the fork in the road, which is you choose mommy or wifey, right?
Who you're loyal to?
Mommy or wifey?
To your past, to that which was not chosen, to that which was negative for you, or to that which you can choose, which is the future, which is positive for you.
Now, my concern is that you immediately slipped into loyalty to mommy, which means you're not able to make a commitment to me.
Right.
Because if you make a commitment to me, then the commitment is to tell the truth, right?
Or if you lie, to at least notice it and say, ooh, you know, hang on, I think I'm going off in the wrong direction here.
Like, to have that level of self-knowledge.
But if you immediately cleave to your mother, you cannot cleave to your wife.
Does that make sense?
Makes sense.
If you have foundational, automatic loyalty to your mother, then you cannot have a pair bond with your wife.
Right.
Because in a conflict between me and your mother, you choose who?
I'll go with my mother.
That's right.
That's right.
And you don't even seem to be aware of it.
My interests as a good woman get sacrificed for the narcissistic needs of your mother, if we can use that term.
So, the good is sacrificed to the bad, the healthy is sacrificed to the sick.
The voluntary is sacrificed to the control.
The future is sacrificed for the past.
Which means that you'll be okay with me unless mommy has a problem with me and then you'll run over to mommy and leave me alone, right?
Right.
So that's your fork in the road.
Wow.
Now, so that's what I think that's what a good, honest, direct woman would say, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So when you say, I have low self-esteem, what are you actually saying?
You're saying that you clearly signal to a woman that you'll choose a dysfunctional mother over a healthy wife.
Oh gosh, yeah.
No, but so how are you wrong in saying I have low sexual market value?
What honest, decent, moral woman would want that?
And I'm not trying to be harsh or negative or say that you're a bad guy.
I'm just saying, well, you talk about having low self-esteem like it's some made-up thing.
But if you cleave to your dysfunctional mother at the expense of your functional girlfriend, you do have low sexual market value.
It's not a myth.
It's not an, oh my God, I just have to think better of myself.
It's like, no, you have to act better!
Yeah.
That's coming from a different angle, because I'd always...
When I say low self-esteem, it was always from when I did try to go out and date, my mom would make comments about how I looked.
It would be, you know, you're so skinny, you're scrawny.
What sort of girl would want you or your face?
Have you seen it?
You know, who's going to want that?
It was those comments, and that would play on my mind whenever I would try to approach her.
Okay, so that is having loyalty to your mother.
Right.
Because that's so clearly dysfunctional and screwed up.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Yeah.
That's so clear, like to insult your son's appearance.
And it's not like, you know, whether you're thin or like, I don't know, she says you have bad hair or you're too short or, you know, you're too skinny or whatever.
Okay, maybe you can exercise a bit to gain some weight or whatever.
But, you know, a lot of that stuff is outside your control.
If you were overweight, that would be one thing, although mockery wouldn't be the way to achieve it, but you could lose some weight and maybe you could.
But I think you said you exercise, you take care of yourself, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, if you exercise and take care of yourself, you look how you look, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, I exercise and take care of myself, but, you know, I'm still a bit jowly because I'm in my late 50s, and I'm a bit thick-waisted because that's the way I've always been.
And what else?
I'm bald, right?
I'm still bald, right?
Right.
So, that's not...
I can't...
I mean, I guess I could lose a little bit of weight, although I'm still continuing to lose weight in my 50s, but...
So...
That is so clearly dysfunctional that for you to cleave to your mother and say, oh, maybe she's right, and that does mess with my head, that's having loyalty to your mother.
And that's what's been modeled by your whole family, is to have loyalty to your mother.
Yeah.
So, when you say, well, I have trouble getting a quality woman because I have low self-esteem, that's saying that, well, it's just this mysterious being negative on yourself that's the problem.
But the problem is not that you think badly of your appearance.
The problem is you think badly of your appearance because your mother said so, and she's screwed up beyond words.
So the fact that you give your mother credibility is the low self-esteem.
Not what your mother says, but that you give a shit about what this crazy woman says.
Right.
Hmm.
That signals to a woman, if you're a reasonably attractive guy, where would you put yourself on one to ten?
A six.
A six.
Okay, so if you're relatively slender and you work out, what is dragging down your number?
I don't believe I could be any higher.
No, no, come on.
I'm talking about your physical appearance.
I'm not talking about your subjective internal, blah, blah, blah.
Sure, sure.
I'd say about an eight.
An eight, okay.
About an eight, yeah.
Okay, so you're in the top 20% of men.
And so, a woman, if you are physically insecure despite being attractive, right?
80% is like an A, right?
Or an A-, or whatever.
It's pretty high up there, right?
Yeah.
So, a woman, if you have Insecurity regarding your appearance when you are, in fact, an attractive, if not very attractive man, 80% is a good grade, and 8 is somewhere between 8 and 9, so even if we put you at 8.5 or whatever, it's 80%, 85%.
So if a woman looks at you, and you are an attractive guy, but you think you're an unattractive guy, she knows immediately that you have loyalty to someone who's hostile to your interests and happiness.
Right.
And so that is a signal that you will cleave to that which is destructive to you rather than assess it rationally, which means that she will always play second or third fiddle to whoever has attacked you.
And a woman cannot trust you if you cleave to people who are harmful to you.
She needs you to cleave to her to protect her, which means also to protect yourself.
Because you can't be a protector and a provider if you are a puppet on the string of people who wish you harm.
Right.
A woman cannot fall in love with Slave Boy.
Oh gosh, yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
And a moral woman who ever finds the fuck out That you're still hanging around people who are half pimping out your half-sister?
She will run for the fucking hills, I'm not kidding you, in any way, shape, or form.
Yeah.
So that's your choice.
Well, it's true that my mother is dating a guy who creeped on my 18-year-old sister, and my whole family says, yeah, give her what she wants, that's totally fine.
and then, Thank you.
Want to go get some kebabs?
No, seriously.
Wouldn't work.
Well, it's not low self-esteem.
It's an accurate assessment of where your loyalties are.
And I say this with sympathy.
I really do.
I'm not trying to put you down or make you feel bad.
I'm just saying it's not some magical Jedi mind trick that's going to raise your self-esteem.
It's not having really fucked up people in your life that's going to raise your dating market value to a healthy woman.
I mean, unhealthy women, right?
Like your ex-girlfriend.
How long ago did you break up?
A couple of months ago.
Okay.
So, how did your ex-girlfriend know that you were going to sit for this bullshit Maoist struggle session of 15 points that are shitty about you?
How did she know you weren't just going to laugh at her, tell her to go take a long walk off a short pier and get the hell out?
How did she know you were going to sit there and take it?
I think she sniffed it out.
Of course she did.
Yeah, because you take your mom's attack on your appearance.
You take your mom's control, you're still hanging around with the mom who stole your dad from you!
She stole your father from you!
The guy who might have cared about you more, the guy who might have taken custody, the guy who probably was more functional than the raging alcoholic.
She stole from you your patrilineage, your father, your protector.
For the sake of money and sick companionship, you never had a father because of your mother.
100%.
It's so strange that I wouldn't let myself get angry at him.
No, it's not strange because...
If you don't have a choice in a relationship, you don't have a choice about what you feel in that relationship.
Right.
Right, so feelings, anger is about choice.
Anger is, can it help?
Does anger help, right?
Mm-hmm.
Now, if you say, well, you know, I've got to have a relationship with my mother, I have to.
It's an absolute.
It's like gravity.
Well, getting angry about the inevitable is a sign of immaturity, right?
Am I angry that I'm aging?
I am not.
I'm thrilled that I'm aging because I had cancer 10 years ago and it's all a bonus from here, right?
Right.
So I'm not angry that I'm aging because the alternative is infinitely worse.
So would I get angry about aging?
Well, no.
I mean, it doesn't mean I won't act about it.
It doesn't mean I won't exercise and eat well and maintain a healthy weight.
I'll do all of that stuff for sure, but I'm not going to get angry about aging.
And so, if you view your relationship with your mother as an absolute, then anger is pointless.
It would be like me waking up every morning and punching the mirror because I was a little grayer, a little saggier, and a little more wrinkled, right?
Yeah.
Enraged.
That would be the actions of a crazy person, right?
Yeah.
So, if you view your relationship with your mother as a foundational absolute within which you have no choice, then anger would be completely pointless.
Do I get angry at gravity?
No.
It's a fact.
It's a factor.
it's a reality.
Well, that's true, Hedda.
You know, it's that old phrase, you know, it is what it is.
Yeah, yeah, it is what it is.
So, yeah, I mean, it is a fact.
That's like an epistemological emotional statement.
Aging is what it is.
There's no alternative to aging other than dying.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I prefer aging to dying, and aging is, you know, it's funny, you look at people who are, like, bent over, they're 90 or whatever, these are the most successful human beings around.
They might have lived to that age.
Yeah, yeah, I mean, they've succeeded.
They've lived, that's the most successful, you say, in terms of physicality, yeah, they've, right?
So, how could you get angry at something that isn't absolute?
It's futile.
Can you imagine a woman being enraged that she gets a period?
Yeah, no.
Just wouldn't work.
Well, I mean, it would just be a sign of, like, crazy immaturity, right?
Yeah.
So, if you don't have a choice with regards to your mother, then you won't have any genuine emotions regarding your mother, because you will always view those emotions as irrational and foolish and immature.
So then, a woman who wants to pair bond with you and you have a dysfunctional mother needs to know that you can get angry at your mother because that's the only way your relationship with your girlfriend or wife is going to be protected from your mother's intrusion.
Right.
But getting angry at my mother or trying to get her to change in any way...
No, no, no.
Getting angry at your mother does not mean trying to get her to change.
Right.
I guess I can't save it then.
If I'm at some cabin, right, with my family, and a bear breaks in through the window, right?
And, like, when I worked up north, we had shotguns because there were bears and wolves.
Right?
Well, yeah.
So if a bear, and I had this happen, right?
We had a camp dog, and the camp dog was attacked by a bear.
It broke the dog's spine, and it was creeping up on the tent.
I had to load up the shotgun, go out with a flashlight, holler in my underpants, and point a gun.
Now, am I doing that to change the bear?
No.
No, just to protect myself.
I'm not going to try and talk the bear into becoming a vegetarian.
I don't know.
Right?
Yeah.
So getting angry, having the fight or flight mechanism, is about getting to safety, about establishing a situation of safety.
It does not mean changing others, necessarily.
It could, it could, right?
You know, if my friend is working and I see a bear creeping up behind him in the bush, I will say, hey, bear, right?
And then we'll get to the shotgun and we'll, you know, try to protect ourselves as much as possible and so on.
So I want him to change his behavior, but I'm still not, the bear's not going to change.
And in fact, if I try to reason with the bear, I'm putting myself in more danger, right?
Yeah.
If I try to pet the bear, oh, easy, easy, big boy, easy.
Heel!
Sit!
Roll over!
Right?
I'm just going to get my scalp chewed off.
Yeah.
So knowing when you can change someone and knowing when the only security is distance is pretty essential, right?
It is.
I mean, our ancestors who tamed dogs and cats, sorry, who tamed wild cats and wolves into dogs and cats did us an enormous benefit, right?
Mm-hmm.
Kept the grain safe, kept the sheep herded and all kinds of goods, kept the predators away, all kinds of good stuff, right?
Yeah.
And so they tamed, which was good.
But if you're out in the woods and a pack of wolves comes around, you get the hell out of there or you climb a tree, but you sure as hell don't try to tame them and turn them into chihuahuas, right?
No.
No, it would never work.
Right.
So, anger.
It's about establishing boundaries and securing safety.
So if the bear is chasing me and I get into the cabin, which is a strong cabin, and I lock the doors and windows, I'm safe.
Because I have boundaries called the walls of the house, right?
The walls of the cabin.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
If I'm in a tent, I'm not safe because the bear can just rip through the tent, right?
Yeah.
I've sat in tents with a shotgun across my lap as a bear is prowling around, hoping I won't have to shoot it.
So, the fight or flight, the anger, that may be about changing the person, but you've already been trying that for five years.
That's why I asked you that earlier, right?
Right.
So, you've been trying to talk the bear into becoming a vegetarian for five years, and it's More flesh-hungry now than before, right?
Right, yeah.
So that's not working?
So fight ain't working, because you can't win against your mother, and you tried to go for allies, right?
You're like that guy in High Noon, the Gary Cooper character, right?
Bad guys are coming to town.
Who wants to help?
Well, nobody, right?
So you're saying, okay, well, I want to fight to have better behavior for my mother, so I'll go to the family for allies.
And they're all like, nope, not helping.
She's fine.
So if the fight doesn't work, what is left?
Float.
That's right.
If there's some beast in the wilderness...
Or we all had this as kids, you know, like sometimes you were told if there's an aggressive dog, you just run at it screaming, and hopefully it'll run away.
Okay, so you run at it screaming, and the dog growls and runs at you.
What do you do?
You turn around?
Run the other way.
You climb a tree, you climb a fence, you run, right?
Hmm.
So, you have tried to fight.
It's not working.
What is left?
Well, if you don't feel any anger, you're just going to sit there like a piece of pudding and take it.
Yeah, like you had to as a kid, but you don't have to as an adult.
Is any decent, moral, intelligent, perceptive woman going to want to marry into your family?
No.
So, that's the price.
The price is solitude or shitty, naggy girlfriends.
friends.
Who take the reins installed by your mother and whip you further.
Forever and ever.
Amen.
And God forbid you get one of these women pregnant and then you're lashed to some unholy witch for 20 plus years as your kids look at you as a ball-less, spineless cuck and have no respect at all.
And that's the prison you're heading towards.
I'm telling you, that's the prison you're heading towards.
Some woman is going to break your balls and then drain them and become a mom.
And then you're trapped.
That's the dice you're rolling with.
Oh no, I'm on the pill.
Don't worry, I can't get pregnant.
I'm on the pill.
I've got an IUD and everything's fine.
Oh, wow, I got pregnant.
Yeah.
Happened actually to a family member who's in that situation right now.
Right.
Yeah.
So I think I can fall into that very easily if I'm not careful.
What?
No, you're not careful.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
You're not careful.
Or you get an STD, which, you know, some of them stick around for the rest of your life, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Or you get a stalker.
Or you get a woman who's got a dangerous ex-boyfriend, I guess, like your stepdad, right?
Yeah.
And then you're in serious shit.
Or you get depressed again, right?
Yep.
So...
I see.
You've been given this great gift...
You've been given this great gift.
Nobody's lying to you, right?
They're all telling you exactly who they are, which your mother's boyfriend identified and you refuse to believe.
He's saying, I own them, not you.
They'll do what I want, not you.
They serve my master, not your morals.
I can't think of anything more liberating myself.
Well, there's a freedom in that.
Some freedom.
Did anyone ever tell you that your girlfriend was kind of a bitch?
Not at first, no.
Until they saw her behavior.
Okay.
And then they did say, she's bad for you, you should break up.
Yes, yeah.
Okay.
And did you listen?
I didn't.
I thought, again, like with my mother.
Okay, so even when they give you good advice, the relationship is so dysfunctional that you don't listen.
Yes, yeah.
Well, choose your companions, choose your future.
There's no escape from that.
That is a law of physics.
Choose your companions, you choose your future.
It's funny, you think you know all these ideas, but I guess it's until it sort of visits you and you have to wrestle with that.
You have to have that strength to actually make that step or change.
But I think that's what I'm faced with, and I have to make that step.
And think about me rather than, you know, serving my mother or my wider family.
It's me at the end of the day.
Well, and, you know, I mean, your half-sister is someone who probably would benefit enormously from some protection and compassion.
Yeah.
But I wouldn't sacrifice my future even for her.
Because she is not a chosen relationship.
Now, again, do whatever good you can, but if she's going to drag you down, I mean, sorry, you have a responsibility to virtue, integrity, and your future, and in particular, your children.
And I'm not saying she is, but let's say she's just a messed up person, does a whole bunch of drugs, and she's an adult now, right?
And it's like, okay, well, is that going to interfere with me getting a quality woman?
And if so, like, sorry, honey, but I've got to think of my future.
But it sounds like she's worth putting the effort in.
She is.
She is.
I wouldn't want to condemn her to...
No, no.
I would strongly suggest putting the effort in, but not from a slave standpoint, but from a judgment standpoint.
Yeah.
Right.
All right.
Is that a good approach?
No, that's a good approach.
Thank you so much for this.
It's really opened my eyes to...
Just, yeah, know what I need to do to get my life moving.
Beautiful.
Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
I will do, definitely.
All right.
Thanks, brother.
I appreciate that.
And again, massive sympathies for your childhood, but a better future is there.
All you have to do is choose it.
Yeah.
All right.
Thanks, man.
All the best.
Bye-bye.
Thanks, Tika.
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