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Dec. 9, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

05:05:40

Two Sides of a Disaster! Freedomain Couples Call In

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	Well, alrighty, this is a bit of a lengthy call, but it's one of these fascinating Rashomon-he-said-she-said kind of stuff.
	This is a breakup from two perspectives and all of the complex history that is involved.
	This is really deep, really powerful, and it's well worth the time investment.
	So, yeah, let's dive in.
	Have we talked before?
	Have we talked before?
	Can you hear me?
	Wait a second.
	It's I think now it's better.
	Can you hear me now?
	Yes, yes.
	Very nice, very nice.
	Perfect.
	Well, nice to meet you.
	Of course, as always, I'm sorry about the circumstances, but I am eager and keen to help as best I can.
	If you want to start off by reading off the message, then we can take the convo from there.
	Yeah, thank you.
	I really appreciate it.
	Okay, so the topic is my mother stole from me again.
	I have spent my entire life without real parents.
	I never knew my biological father and my mother has never shown any real love towards me.
	I was raised primarily by other people, including a family that took me in, and I have spent most of my life in the company of my horses.
	Until I was 16, I thought my stepfather was my real father until my mother told me the truth after I had a near-fatal motorcycle crash.
	My mother then stole the money I received in the settlement.
	It was €12,000.
	She said this to me.
	I recently found out that my mother has been stealing from me again more than €1,300 per month that I was supposed to use to pay my rent for.
	She forgot my signature and said she was owed this money because she paid for my food and other things in the past.
	I met a man recently who I fell in love with.
	However, after a three-month-long relationship, we are not together at this time.
	I sometimes feel out of control with my emotions and find it difficult to control them.
	He said I treated him harshly and that he didn't feel loved by me.
	I want to be with him again, however he is unsure.
	I could use a conversation with you because my life is very unhappy at the moment.
	Yeah, I'm so sorry about this.
	You said your mother, I think you said forget, but I think forged.
	She forged your signature, is that right?
	Oh, yeah.
	Yeah, no problem.
	Listen, I always have great admiration for people who learn another language, so take your time.
	Yeah, it's very difficult.
	Oh, it is.
	And English is fairly challenging to put it mildly, so I appreciate that.
	Well, I'm so sorry about all of this.
	What was going on with you and your mom when you were little?
	I can't remember that much because most of the time I was at the stable with the horses.
	So she went to work again really quick and I was raised by the family from the stable or my grandmother.
	But my grandmother and my granddad died very early.
	They both were only 60 years old.
	Yeah, so then I was alone all the time.
	And after the motorcycle accident, I moved to...
	Yeah, and then I had a...
	Yeah, sorry, if I could just remind you to stay off places, that's totally fine.
	I'll delete that.
	But yeah, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I moved to a big city alone without any friends or without any other people I knew at this moment.
	Yeah, so...
	I'm sorry, how old were you when you moved there?
	16 years old.
	Okay.
	Directly after the motorcycle accident.
	Right, okay.
	Now, did you keep up with the horses?
	I quitted it first, and then I started to deal with the horses again and start riding again.
	So, yeah, I fought for my first horse, so I got her back since...
	I got 18 years old.
	But then everything starts getting difficult.
	So I was young.
	I had five jobs at the same time to pay for my rent, to pay for my private university, to pay for the horses and so on.
	So yeah, I think I jumped into this business too quick.
	So now it's very difficult to deal with all this stuff again.
	So it's like a drug.
	You love it, but you also hate it.
	And animals are very nice, but it's a lot of work you have to do with them.
	And it's fucking expensive to own horses.
	So yeah, I don't know.
	It's like childhood trauma.
	You try to get the love back from animals so they can't speak.
	They show you the love.
	You feed them so they love you.
	It's easy to getting loved by an animal, but it's not easy to getting or being loved by humans.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, you know, I have two minds.
	Not that this is hugely relevant, but I'll just mention it so I get it off my head.
	I've known some women who've fallen down what feels like a pit of horsiness.
	Like, they really get into horses, it almost becomes a substitute or a shield against humans, and you can't compete with the horses.
	It's like the cliché that lonely women with cats, sometimes it's neglected or hurt children or girls with horses, and it becomes like a big thing.
	And I get that it's a plus, but it also can, I think, be a bit of a crutch.
	Yeah, of course, really.
	So, on the one hand, it's like, oh, cool, you were young, you have so much to do with the horses, you learn how to deal with big animals, you learn to not control them, because I don't want to control an animal.
	An animal has also feelings, but I can learn to be a team with it, and if you Being a team, you can do great stuff with them and it's like a friendship.
	But on the other hand, it's like, yeah, it's Yeah, not real, because the animal loves you because you give them food.
	Well, and you're nice.
	I mean, not just the food.
	I mean, you're a source of pleasure for them, like the pat-downs or the brushing or the writing.
	So they associate you with pleasure.
	So you do have to be nice to animals to get the affection back.
	It's not amoral in that whatever you dump food at them.
	So you do have to be nice to the animals.
	But it's kind of tough for a mere mortal man to compete with the perfection of the animal bond, so to speak.
	It's like some of those cliches where the girls are really into Jesus and then can't deal with actual men with flaws and faults.
	Yeah.
	Mm-hmm.
	What's your age range now?
	You don't have to tell me your exact age, sort of mid-20s, late-20s, anything else?
	No, 24. 24, okay.
	All right.
	And so you didn't see your mom growing up very much, right?
	So this was a family across the street and then there were grandparents, but were the grandparents at the horse farm or were they separate?
	No, they were in another place.
	I saw my mom, but every time I saw her, the only thing I remember is that we had fights or that she showed me that she didn't want me.
	I had the thought earlier in my life that maybe there is another thing in our life that isn't...
	Or that she is not my biological mother.
	I don't know what.
	But I don't want to protect her in this thing.
	But I know that she gave birth to me very early.
	So she was pregnant.
	When she was 17 years old.
	And I think it's a really tough thing for a young mother to raise a child.
	And the other thing is her ex-boyfriend or her boyfriend at this time died in a motorcycle accident.
	Oh gosh.
	Yeah, so I don't know how I would deal with this situation if...
	I lost my boyfriend in a motorcycle accident, got pregnant, don't know if he's the father or someone else.
	Okay, this is my thing I have in my mind.
	Yeah, but at the other hand, it's like she don't have to treat me like this because I'm her child and I can't do anything for her life before or what happened in her life.
	Why is she doing this?
	And until now, she is doing this.
	Well, and of course, it's the most obvious connection.
	I'll take no brownie points for it, that your father apparently died in a motorcycle accident, and you almost did.
	Yeah, this was...
	After a few years with a motorcycle accident, of course.
	But yeah, I don't know.
	She says that my father isn't the dead ex of her.
	But who knows?
	Only she knows.
	But she is not talking about this.
	How do you know that she knows who the father is if she was sleeping with more than one boy at a time?
	No, I think she don't know who the father is.
	I don't know.
	I had the theory that it's getting deeper because she never told me before.
	It's like, oh, your daughter, or maybe your daughter is dying right now.
	Do you have to tell her something?
	And then she comes up with this thing, oh, I have to tell you something.
	Father isn't your biological father.
	But every time I've asked her after this, who is my father?
	Can you tell me the name?
	I don't know what.
	She starts getting very angry and aggressive.
	So I have the theory, what if she got raped?
	Because I I can't imagine that she fucks with someone directly after her boyfriend dies in a motorcycle accident.
	Sorry, why would that be?
	I mean, obviously, you know her infinitely better than I do.
	But why would that?
	I mean, if she doesn't have a bond, and he also might have been a terrible guy, she might have, through her grief, gone into the arms of another man.
	I mean, it doesn't seem impossible to me.
	No, it's not impossible.
	But my aunt, for example, she talks with me several times about her dead ex-boyfriend.
	And she said to me every time she tries to talk with her about him, she starts crying.
	So she's not crying in front of me, but she starts crying in front of her own sister.
	So I think they had a bond.
	And it's only a theory I have, so I don't know.
	I'm not her psychologist or something else.
	I'm her daughter.
	I have the right to know who my biological father is.
	Sorry, she says motorcycle guy was not your biological father and then she cries whenever your aunt brings him up.
	Okay, but given the little I know about her nature, wouldn't we assume that the crying is not at all authentic and just a manipulation?
	I don't know.
	I really don't know.
	Yes, you do.
	I'm sorry, you do because you've known your mother for almost a quarter century.
	I know not all of that consciously.
	I mean, a woman who will steal insurance benefits from her own daughter is not a woman with a conscience.
	It is not a woman with empathy.
	It's not a woman with a shred of integrity or morality and continues to steal from her daughter.
	So, I would assume that there's no genuine emotions going on at all.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So...
	Yeah, I don't know how to think about this.
	So the reason I'm saying is that, I mean, I'm trying to sort of, hopefully, rescue you a little bit from the idea that you were the product of rape.
	Is that your concern?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	A woman like your mother who lacks a conscience, lacks any sense of pair bonding, lacks any sense of morality and so on, could absolutely easily sleep with someone else after her boyfriend dies.
	And then when the topic is brought up, she will feign tears in order to have people not ask her about it because she's manipulative.
	But there's no genuine feeling there.
	I mean, if she was capable of genuine feeling and genuine connection and genuine affection, she wouldn't be stealing from you.
	Yeah, that's true.
	That's very toxic.
	It is, but the good news is that the toxicity of your mother releases you at least from the probability that you were the product of rape.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Never thought about this, but...
	I mean, we could do a whole show on how little I look like my father.
	I mean, I look like a prototypical German baldhead like Max Hedrum, and my father is an Irish potato guy, and I've had my thoughts.
	Anyway, it doesn't really matter.
	It doesn't affect the price of tea in China anymore.
	Okay, so...
	You...
	Were mostly not around your mother when you were little, and then did she show up anymore in your teenage years?
	Sometimes.
	I'm one of those girls who try to see every positive part of people, and so my...
	Everybody around me said, oh, it's your mom.
	You have to be nice to your mom.
	And I said, after a while, I said, first I was like, yeah, okay, yeah, you're right.
	But then I created this thought and said, sorry, but yeah, maybe she's my mom, but I'm also her daughter.
	And only because she's my mother, or my biological mother, she has one or two chances more in life than Other people.
	But if she don't want those chances, then she can turn around and go away.
	It doesn't matter to me because every time I needed her, she wasn't there.
	So, of course, I've tried to Being her daughter, doing some things with her, but every time it turns into a fucking fight.
	And this is not fair.
	So for me, it means stress to call her, to visit her, to see her, to hear from other people something about her.
	And she didn't tell me that my grandfather was in the hospital.
	She didn't tell me that my grandmother was in the hospital and stuff like this.
	I only knew this because it was like an accident.
	It was like, hey aunt, what are you doing?
	And she said, oh, I'm in the hospital, where are you?
	So it's a very shitty situation.
	It's like she tries to put me in pain constantly on purpose.
	Well, but these were the grandparents who raised your mother, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, I mean, they must have been not ideal, to put it mildly.
	Yeah, I would say my grandmother, my grandfather won't be good parents, but for me, they were very good parents.
	For lovely grandparents.
	It's funny how there seems to be something with grandparents that they take children less personally.
	They take grandchildren less personally than they take their own children.
	Or maybe they just get older and more mellow or something like that.
	Okay, so did you stay close with your grandparents over your teens?
	No, because my teenage time...
	Yeah, I was with the horses, then I had the motorcycle accident, and then I was in the big city alone.
	Well, no, but you can call them.
	Yeah, but I'm a really bad communicator, so it's like if I have a problem, I've learned in the past, if you have a problem, don't talk about it, do it.
	Or try to solve your problems with yourself.
	Don't be annoying to someone else or I don't know what.
	So, yeah.
	Okay, so what happened to you with your...
	Well, okay, sorry.
	When you were little, single digits, were you disciplined?
	How were you disciplined if you were?
	I would say only with my sport, with the horses.
	Sorry, only with the horses?
	Yeah, with the horses.
	I got the discipline to go to the stable, to clean the boxes, to take care of the horses, to train the horses.
	So this was my discipline.
	I'm so sorry.
	I was very bad at communicating there.
	That self-discipline, I meant how were you disciplined?
	Were you spanked?
	Were you yelled at?
	Was there any consequences for what would be called bad behavior?
	Or how did that happen?
	How did that work?
	Yeah, of course, of course.
	So, yeah, if I did something wrong, then it was like, oh, why are you so stupid?
	You have to think before you do some things.
	And, yeah, so it's the completely opposite of my thinking because I say you need to make mistakes.
	And this was your grandparents?
	No, not with my grandparents.
	Oh, that was your mother?
	Yeah, every time I showed up at my mother's house.
	Okay, but what about your grandparents?
	My grandparents, I can do anything.
	It doesn't matter to them.
	For example, if I would, I don't know, if I would broke the chair or something like this, my grandmother would say, oh, it's okay, we can buy a new chair.
	It doesn't matter.
	But for the next time, you see, don't do this again, for example.
	But then at the night or evening, if they get me back to my mom, it was like, are you stupid?
	Your grandmother told me, why did you do this?
	Blah, blah.
	But why would your grandmother tell your mother if she knew your mother would be harsh with you?
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I think she didn't know this.
	No, no, you know your own kids.
	No, come on.
	You know your own kids.
	I don't know.
	Your grandmother didn't know that your mother was dysfunctional?
	I don't think so, really, because my mom is really good at playing a different person if someone else is around.
	Yes, but she got pregnant in her teens.
	It's a little hard to hide that.
	You exist.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I think so.
	Did she say she found you in a basket in the river?
	Hopefully not.
	Okay, so that's one evidence of problems, right?
	Yeah.
	I don't know.
	It's crazy.
	Okay.
	So, did you stay with your grandparents for most of your teens?
	No, I was lonely.
	I'm sorry, are you aware?
	I was lonely.
	I was only at the stable.
	I tried to hide myself in reading books, being good in school, doing a thousand things at the same time, riding the horses, being a good horse trainer.
	Yeah.
	But this, and I'm so sorry if I've missed this, this was the house across the street with the stables, but that wasn't where your grandparents lived?
	No.
	Okay.
	So what was this family's relationship to your family?
	My what?
	Sorry.
	The family across the street, why did they take you in?
	Did they have a relationship with your family?
	No.
	They saw my talent.
	So, the family has three daughters.
	Sorry, their family?
	Their family has three daughters?
	Yeah, right.
	And, yeah, so my mom and my grandfather, yeah, it was like a present to ride a horse one time.
	So the owner of the stable said, oh, she's talented.
	She has to be motivated.
	And yeah, if she wants, she can ride her.
	She can ride here, the horses.
	Yeah, so this is the thing, how it started.
	And my mom said, no, sorry, we don't want to pay for this.
	And he said, no, no, you don't have to pay for this.
	She can be here, she can ride the horses, she can help me.
	So was it almost like you got access to the horses in return for unpaid labor?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And starting at what age?
	Three, four.
	Oh, wow.
	A little bit before you become economically peak productivity.
	Yeah.
	And did you sleep at this other, where the house was?
	With the horses?
	Sometimes.
	Right.
	Yeah, after I got old enough, of course, yeah.
	Then I slept there.
	After school, I was there, rode the horses.
	Then I slept there and went to the school again the next morning.
	So, yeah, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
	But...
	If I have to sleep at my parents' house, I always come late home.
	The less time, the better to be with your mom, right?
	Because she's always fighting.
	If I'm sure both are sleeping, then I can open the door, going to my bed, and then the next morning I can wake up and going outside the house before they wake up.
	You're creeping in like a drunken husband.
	Yeah, with I don't know, 11 years?
	12 years?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Now, who was the man with your...
	This was your stepfather, right?
	Yeah.
	Who you thought was your actual father?
	Yes.
	And what was his story?
	I don't know.
	I really don't know.
	Okay, what was he like?
	I didn't talk with him so much because he...
	I don't know.
	I always had the feeling that he don't like me.
	That he's jealous or something like this.
	So my stepfather and my mom becomes a son after me.
	So I always had the feeling that he is the best because he didn't have to ask about anything.
	So it was like, oh, here, you can have this and this.
	And do you want this?
	Oh, okay, you can have it.
	And for me, it's like, yeah, is it okay?
	I don't know.
	One good example is I always want to learn how to play the piano.
	And they said to me, no, you can't learn this.
	It's stupid.
	And I don't know.
	I think I would be proud if my daughter would come to me and say, hey, I want to learn how to play a piano.
	Because for me, it's very relaxing.
	So you have your mind working with an instrument.
	But I was not allowed to play the piano, but my stepbrother was allowed to play the guitar, for example, or playing drums.
	And I was like, how stupid is this?
	So I bought me a keyboard and I teach it.
	To myself.
	But the end result of it is, why is he allowed to do things like this?
	And I don't or I can't play instruments like this.
	Right.
	So it's a very unfair situation with him and me.
	Right.
	And what was his fate?
	Sorry, what?
	Like what happened with him?
	Oh.
	Funny thing.
	Complete different people.
	So I got nothing.
	He got everything.
	Now I am the one who is more successful and he...
	Yeah, he's like a little drug junkie, sadly.
	Sorry, you got...
	He got nothing, you got everything, what you mean?
	Yeah, I've got all the jobs I wanted.
	So it was like, oh, yeah, I want this.
	Okay, I can work for this.
	My brother is more like, oh, I want this.
	Normally, my parents would buy me this.
	I'm too lazy to go to work.
	Yeah, and he...
	He's like a little truck junkie.
	So, it's a sad life for him, I think.
	Did he separate from your mother?
	No.
	Oh, they're still together, okay.
	They have still, yeah, they have still contact.
	And he's living there.
	Sometimes he is with friends.
	I don't know, I don't have the big...
	Connection with him too.
	But the only thing I know about him is that he was in a clinic because of drugs.
	And yeah, I think this is really sad.
	And this topic, I have this picture in my mind with the man who said, yeah, I'm like this because of my dad.
	And then you can see this alcoholic dad and the other one is an alcoholic too.
	And the other man says the same thing, but he's a successful man, so he don't want to be like his dad.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And I think with my brother and me, it's the same.
	Yeah, so tell me a little bit about your brother.
	Yeah, I don't know what you want to hear from him.
	I don't know really much about him.
	Sorry, so I guess you're not close.
	Is he younger?
	He's younger, right?
	Of course, yeah.
	He is younger, of course, yeah.
	And how much younger?
	Three years.
	Okay.
	And...
	Are you close?
	I guess not, if you don't really know much about him.
	No, no, no.
	Okay.
	And in our childhood, it was like fights too.
	So my completely childhood was fighting against each other, fighting for getting attention, fighting for...
	Yeah, to tell things.
	I don't know.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	And I always was the big sister who needs to protect her little shitty brother.
	So, yeah, I'm sorry for him that I have to talk about this, but yeah, I mean, I'm not his mother, so why do I have to protect him in this way?
	So if he did stupid things, it was like, oh, Why didn't you watch him?
	I've taught you.
	You need to take care of him.
	No, sorry.
	I was a kid too.
	So it's not my fucking problem.
	It's your son.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	When you said he did stupid things, I thought that with regards to your grandparents, you know, kids don't really make mistakes.
	They, you know, like when you broke a chair, they were like, it's fine.
	So why was it okay for you to break a chair, but your brother did stupid things?
	Because I didn't do things on purpose.
	And he, for example, put the flowers out of the garden on purpose.
	So, yeah.
	Okay, so he was expressing anger and frustration, right?
	Yeah.
	How old was he when he did that?
	It never stopped.
	No, but when did he start?
	I don't know.
	I can't remember.
	I think as a little kid.
	Okay, like four, three, five?
	On the floor, if she didn't get some things.
	No, sorry, I'm just asking about when he pulled flowers out of the garden.
	Was he like five, four?
	Some age around that?
	Yeah, four, five.
	Okay, so let's say he was four.
	Do you really think that a four-year-old growing up in a highly dysfunctional household is responsible for acting out his frustration and his anger?
	I think he didn't have to have this anger and frustration.
	Sorry, he's a boy.
	I mean, boys have a whole different system than girls, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	I mean, could he easily say, well, you didn't need to go and see the horses all the time?
	But that's what worked for you, right?
	Yeah.
	I'm just, if you're harsh to a four-year-old, I'm going to object.
	You know I'm going to object, right?
	Yeah, I think.
	Yeah, but he was also the little angel, so he has Never things or things I see or saw, he has to worry about.
	So he was every time like, yeah, how can I explain this?
	I don't know, but I'm going to be eager to hear you try how your brother was a bad guy at the age of four.
	Yeah, not only four.
	No, no, we started at four.
	Yeah, we started at four.
	So...
	As a four-year-old, I won't say, oh, it's only frustration.
	Yeah, okay, maybe it's frustration or trying to understand things because a three or four-year-old isn't thinking like us in this age.
	Well, he's protesting.
	Yeah, protesting, trying to do things.
	He don't know if this is right or wrong.
	So for example, stupid example, he saw that my stepfather brings flowers at home.
	So he thinks, oh, my mom likes flowers.
	Here's a flower in the garden.
	Maybe.
	Oh, so maybe he was trying to do something nice.
	Yeah, maybe.
	I don't know.
	Okay.
	But at the end of the day, I was the one who becomes all the shitty things because my mom said, hey, why didn't you take care of him?
	Why didn't you saw that this happened?
	So why didn't you stop him from doing this?
	But in a shitty way, not...
	Yes, but that's something to blame your mother for, not your brother.
	No, no.
	Yeah, that's true.
	But as he got older, he did this on purpose.
	So he did stupid things.
	And then it was like, look, I said it to you.
	Don't play with me.
	So he starts to getting very arrogant and try to do things against me because he exactly knew that he don't get the shitty things.
	And what age was he when he was doing this?
	Well, nine, ten.
	Okay.
	Did he have a positive role model who could teach him to do things better?
	Yeah, of course.
	Oh, he did?
	Yeah.
	Okay, who was the role model who taught him to do better?
	My parents.
	No, they weren't.
	Your mother's a thief.
	Your stepdad has become a druggie.
	I mean, this is not someone who can teach a young boy how to behave.
	Yeah.
	It's only with me.
	So, my theory is...
	Sorry, what's only with you?
	Hang on, slow down.
	You've got to keep me up with your story.
	What's only with you?
	I think it's only with me that they both behave so shitty.
	Or my mom behaves shitty to me.
	With my stepfather, I don't have so much...
	Okay, so are you saying that your parents were good parents to your brother, but bad parents to you?
	Um...
	Until some age, yes.
	No.
	No.
	Okay, I can't.
	It's absolutely impossible.
	I mean, there's things that I doubt.
	But the idea that your parents were great parents to your brother and terrible parents for you is not true.
	Yeah, and one thing, they are not good parents to my...
	Brother, too, because otherwise he wouldn't become a junkie.
	So he became a drug addict as well as your stepfather, right?
	I don't know.
	Sorry, didn't you just refer to him as a druggie?
	Yeah, my stepbrother is a druggie.
	Sorry, your stepfather is a druggie, but...
	No, not stepfather, stepbrother.
	Stepbrother.
	Okay, so your stepbrother...
	Is also a drug addict.
	Yeah.
	So you understand that if they...
	You can't be good parents to one sibling and bad parents to another.
	It's not possible.
	Because the child you're treating well sees that you're treating another child badly and that's scary and alarming.
	Yeah.
	Did you see what I mean?
	It's like if you say, well, I have a dog, but the dog only bites one child, not the other.
	The dog only bites the sister, not the brother.
	But the brother, of course, sees the dog biting the sister.
	So that's scary, even if the dog never bites the brother.
	The brother sees the dog biting the sister, and that's scary.
	Oh, that's true.
	So, they can't be good parents to him and bad parents to you.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So, why are you so harsh on your brother?
	And the reason I'm saying this is that you just had a guy, the guy of three months, broke up with you saying that you were harsh with him, right?
	Yeah.
	These are related?
	Yeah.
	It's interesting.
	Why are you harsh with your poor brother who was younger than you and did he have any outlet like the horses that helped you?
	I had other things but I would say because I'm really jealous about other people that are getting attention so Okay, hang on, hang on.
	So did your brother...
	So you had a sanctuary, like a safe place to go, which was your neighbours across the street, right?
	Yeah, it's not really...
	It was safer than home, because you preferred being there, right?
	Yeah, it was safer.
	Okay.
	Did your brother come with you?
	No, my brother had his biological grandfathers, and they would live in...
	Yeah, like in the garden.
	We have two houses in the garden.
	So you went to the neighbors with the horses and your brother went to his biological grandparents, is that right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And also his father, so...
	Sorry, I'm a little lost here.
	His father was not your stepfather?
	Yeah, my stepfather is his biological father.
	Okay, so he would be at home...
	And also at the grandparents.
	Now, did how much time — I know it's hard to remember, but just roughly — how much time did he spend outside of the home with your mother and his father?
	Like, you spent a lot of time at the neighbors with the horses.
	How much time did your brother spend away from the home with your mother and his father?
	I really don't know because I was at this table all the time.
	But the things I know is that he plays video games with my stepfather and he liked all this.
	So he liked to spend time with them.
	He wasn't like, oh, I don't like them or they're mean to me or bad to me.
	So I can't speak for him.
	Well, that may have been demanded of him.
	It may have been demanded, like abusers or neglectful parents will often demand that you praise them.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	So...
	He probably spent a lot more time in this dysfunctional household than you did, and it also may have been more of a requirement, plus he was younger, right?
	So you got the rejection from your parents, but he got the rejection from his parents and you.
	Yeah, I tried to be there for him, but he didn't want it.
	So, it's his fault?
	No, it's not his fault, but it's also not my fault.
	I would say there is no right or wrong.
	Well, I know, but you introduced him as being in the wrong.
	That's why we're having this conversation.
	Yeah.
	This little shit who pulled up the weeds and acted out and cried when he didn't get his way and manipulated.
	You basically portrayed him as a pretty terrible person when he was a little kid.
	Yeah, because I think I'm angry about him because I tried so many times to help him, to speak with him, to know how he feels about the situation, or am I the one who sees the situation wrong?
	Yeah, but I don't know.
	It was like we both don't have a connection and it's like we both were little kids.
	I just think it's going to be hard for you to be consistently affectionate to a boyfriend if you judge your little brother as a bad seed. .
	Yeah, it's because I'm getting jealous.
	I see everybody else getting the attention I was begging for as a child.
	No, no, no.
	Oh, you're a good liar.
	This is a lie.
	And I say this with all affection.
	This is a total lie.
	Because you said this a couple of times.
	It's absolutely not believable.
	I'll tell you why.
	Maybe I'm wrong.
	But you fled that house as often as you could.
	Yeah.
	So if you left early in the morning, went to school, went to the horse place, stayed there, came home at night after your mother and stepfather were asleep, you desperately wanted to avoid their attention.
	Yeah.
	So why would you be jealous of someone else getting the attention that you absolutely didn't want?
	Because I didn't get the attention.
	And even if I told them, hey, I need a hug, I need love, I need this, I need this...
	It was always like, oh, no, sorry.
	Or not sorry.
	They said things like, I don't want to hug you.
	Leave us alone.
	Yeah, things like this.
	Or go into your room, play on your own.
	It's, yeah.
	So, of course, then...
	The child started to do his own thing.
	Sorry, I understand.
	So you got rejected and then...
	Of course, yeah.
	So you got rejected as a very little kid.
	Yeah.
	And then you ended up going to the neighbor's house.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, of course.
	So...
	This was my thing to...
	It was not like, okay, I was three or four years old, and then I was every day at the stable.
	It was like, okay, I started getting a hobby.
	No, but you said you were three or four years old when you went to the stables.
	I'm not saying moved in, right?
	But you were at the stables at that age, right?
	Yeah, that's correct.
	And so your memory is, for years before you went to the stables, from like one to three, you were being consistently rejected by your mother and stepfather.
	I don't know.
	I can't remember those years.
	I can't remember.
	I didn't think so, right?
	As a one-year-old or two-year-old?
	I'm asking because you're saying that you were rejected.
	And that's why you went.
	Yeah, while I was at the stable, I started the hobby.
	My mom and my stepfather...
	I didn't find this so good that I can ride horses.
	No, no, they took it, sorry to interrupt, they took it personally because you preferred being at another person's house than yours.
	Yeah, but not at three years old.
	I wasn't three years old and said, oh, bye mom and stepfather, I'm here at the stable right now.
	And since then, every day.
	It was slowly a process.
	No, I understand that.
	That's why I said, not permanently.
	But parents, a lot of parents are very sensitive and insecure.
	And if you prefer another family's company to their company, They get very petty and withholding.
	I'm not blaming you, of course.
	I'm glad you had this house to go to with the horses.
	But your parents probably were mad at you or felt humiliated or rejected themselves and then, you know, dealt with it very badly and so withheld affection from you because they felt you were rejecting them by wanting to be more...
	I mean, I had a babysitter who was very nice to me and would let me stay up late And bought me a curly-whirly, and we played cards, and she was a lot of fun.
	I much preferred her to my own mother.
	And one night, I was supposed to go to her, to the babysitters, when I was maybe four or five years old, and it was cancelled.
	I assume my mother had a date, and then my mother didn't, like, the date was cancelled, so I didn't, and I cried all night.
	I was crying bitterly all night because that was a person who was nice.
	Now, of course, my mother would take this very personally.
	Oh, you just love her or something.
	And my mom took, like, Aristotle and Ayn Rand personally.
	You know, like, they raised you, not me.
	And it's like...
	So parents who are sort of immature and insecure will sometimes view their children's preference for other people.
	I mean, it's perfectly rational, but they will view that.
	They will take it personally.
	And then they will, I'm not going to hug you because you prefer this other family.
	You reject me, I reject you.
	I mean, it's very sad and pitiful, but that might have been some of the mechanics.
	Yeah, I understand this, but I would never prefer to go to the stable so often or for so long if I would get this love from my own family.
	So, of course, as a kid, you see how other family works, and then sometimes you start to think about your own situation, and it's like, hmm, okay, but at this family...
	No, no, I understand.
	Of course, I understand why you went to the other family.
	I'm just telling you some of the mechanics.
	I'm not trying to justify anything.
	Okay, yeah.
	And so, maybe your brother didn't have as much of an escape as you did.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So then he would have been exposed more to dysfunctionality in the home, and maybe that's one of the reasons why he behaved in less productive ways than you did.
	Maybe he didn't have the emotional connection with the horses that was, like, healthy for you to maintain your capacity for affection, and maybe he didn't have anything like that.
	That's true.
	He has video games.
	Which may have been the only thing that he could do with his father that they agreed on.
	And video games are not affectionate or intimate in the way that taking care of a horse is.
	That's true.
	Maybe he was trained into this kind of coldness and, you know, because you understand, it's classic divide and conquer for parents to set one child against another.
	And I think you've fallen into that, with all due respect.
	I think it's difficult to raise two people or two kids because every kid has other needs and being fair to everybody.
	No, it's not difficult to raise two kids.
	I mean, I'm friends.
	Gosh, I think one of my friends has six kids.
	Oh.
	And they're doing well.
	Another one of my friends has four sons.
	They all get along well, they all look out for each other, they all take care of each other, and they're a lot of fun.
	No, it's not.
	This is dysfunctional parents setting children against each other.
	I think you're following a script of your parents, because dysfunctional parents don't want the siblings to band together.
	They don't want the siblings to be allies, to give each other support.
	Yeah, because then they can start acting against them, or what's the reason?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Well, I mean, there's a lot of reasons, but divide and conquer, right?
	So I think that by viewing your brother in this harsh and negative way, even when he was four years old, I think that's just following a script from your mother and stepfather to keep you guys at odds so that you don't team up and give each other comfort and connection and affection.
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah, maybe.
	I mean, hopefully, I mean, you'll listen back to this.
	The way that you described your four-year-old little brother was very harsh and critical and negative.
	Yeah.
	While you were saying earlier, well, I would break a chair and my grandparents would be very nice about it and only my mother would judge me negatively and then, like you judging the four-year-old negatively, that's sort of what I was pointing out at the beginning.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So, what's the status of your relationship with your mother at the moment?
	And now?
	Yeah.
	Of not talking.
	And when did that, it was that after she stole from you the monthly money?
	Yeah, correct.
	So, the monthly money is from the government, so I was in the hospital, fresh out of the Mental hospital.
	Sorry, you just hadn't mentioned that particular phase.
	Can you hear me?
	Yeah, I can hear you.
	Sorry, you just mentioned the mental hospital.
	I don't recall that, if you mentioned it before.
	No, I didn't say this before, but I was at the hospital.
	I quit my job.
	So I can rest for a little bit and try to work on myself or working on myself.
	And so I started to sign in for the monthly payment from the government.
	Yeah, and after I was on a vacation with my boyfriend, I came back and then I asked them, hey, where is my money?
	I'm waiting for my money for so long.
	And then they said, yeah, your bank account is wrong.
	I said, hey, okay, why?
	And then they told me that my mom faked my sign, that all the money has to go on her bank account.
	And then I said to the lady from the job center thing, hey, sorry, but no, I didn't agree with this.
	Please quit this.
	And then she made another contract with my sign under it.
	So for the last, I think, five months, we got all the money.
	It's $1,300 per month.
	And I have nothing.
	But sorry, don't they investigate your mother for fraud?
	It's a fucking crime.
	Yes, it is, right?
	She can't do this.
	I can call the police and she would end up in jail.
	I have to pay a lot of money.
	Sorry, why would you have to pay a lot of money?
	Because in Germany it's a crime to fake fraud.
	The sign, and then you have two options, going to jail for a few months, or paying...
	Oh, you would have to pay a lot of money.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, sorry, sorry, I thought you meant you.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	Not me.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	Okay, but you have this sorted out, and the money's coming back, is that right?
	I don't think so.
	So the job center says, yeah, sorry, but we have a letter with your sign.
	And I'm saying, no, it's not my sign.
	It's a fake.
	You can't pay the money to another bank account if it's not my sign.
	So, yeah, for example, I have to speak with a lawyer for this to getting out of this situation.
	Yeah, until next month, I will get the money on my bank account, but what about the last month?
	I need the money from the last month.
	Okay, but where does the mental hospital come into this?
	The mental hospital was before.
	I'm not sure how hard you expect me to work to get this information out of you.
	Before?
	Before what?
	When?
	How?
	Come on, work with me here a little.
	Sorry.
	Help a brother out.
	No, I was in the mental hospital because everything was too much.
	I was totally overwhelmed with my whole life to deal with everything.
	Then I was in the hospital.
	When?
	A few months ago.
	A few months ago.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, I think it was six months ago.
	Yeah, exactly six months ago.
	And did you go in of your own accord?
	I tried to kill myself.
	And what triggered that, do you think?
	My ex-boyfriend plus everything around.
	The corona story, my company that I needed to close in the corona time, many things, no money anymore, my ex-business partner who shits on me all the time.
	There are so many, many things that I felt so worthless and unloved and that I'm too much for everyone and didn't know how to handle all this and my emotions and the thing that my mind changed.
	It was like, yeah, why is it so difficult?
	To think about the normal stuff, yeah, everybody knows the feeling if you lose your key in your own apartment.
	If you want.
	If you lose your key in your own apartment, if you don't know where you put your key in your apartment.
	But for me, it was like, sometimes I forget my name, for example, or how old I am, and it's getting Worst.
	Yeah, so...
	And this just doesn't have anything to do with the motorcycle accident, does it?
	No, no, it doesn't.
	It's totally overwhelmed.
	As a young woman who jumped in 10,000 jobs, trying to not think about myself, trying to be good in everything and working all day, all night, all day, all night.
	It was overstimulating for my brain.
	Sorry, but why were you working so hard?
	I think to forget some things.
	And what were you trying to forget?
	Please don't tell me you forgot.
	I'm just kidding.
	But what were you trying to forget?
	Trying to forget...
	Yeah.
	No, trying to forget what?
	Things from my childhood to...
	I tried to silence my mind.
	I want my mind to be quiet and I've learned if I'm doing a thousand things at the same time, then my mind don't have the power to think again and again and again and again.
	Okay, so what is your mind saying that you don't want to hear?
	That I don't want to hear?
	I don't know.
	Well, you said you want to quiet your mind, that you can silence your mind by working on a thousand different things.
	So what is your mind saying or giving you that you want to quiet?
	Yeah.
	For example, you're not good enough.
	Nobody can love you.
	You're not worth it to being loved.
	Your parents showed you this.
	Yeah, things like this.
	Okay.
	Whose voice is that?
	My own?
	No.
	No, it's not.
	Whose voice is that?
	Who told you all of that when you were little?
	From my mom?
	I don't know.
	Tell me.
	I would say...
	Like the brain just doesn't wake up and decide to try and kill you.
	No, that's true.
	You don't have a happy, good, productive life, and then your brain is like, oh, you're a piece of crap and unworthy of love.
	That's not what the brain does.
	Yeah, I would say it's my own voice who would say things like, you're not worth it, but it depends on the things my mom told me.
	Okay, so what did your mother say to you when you were little that stuck with you in this way?
	It's crazy because in moments like this, my brain is totally empty.
	I don't know.
	Hey, look at that.
	we just have to keep talking and you'll be fine it's the non-communication communication it's the thing It's not the things she said to me.
	It's the things she showed me and I... Analyze the situations.
	Yeah.
	No, I'm sure you're right.
	Your mother showed very little interest in you and fought with you all the time.
	You were a negative presence in her life, so it's easy to feel that you're not wanted.
	I mean, it's clearly expressed that you're not wanted, that you're a negative presence, that you're worthless, that no one's going to love you.
	I mean, that is a perfectly rational response to having parents like this.
	York?
	So, the difference is as an adult, you can judge the people who judged you.
	Now, as a kid, you can't.
	You just have to go along with it because they have all the power, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	But as an adult, it's a basic principle of maturity, and I'm not calling you immature, I'm just saying that there's this aspect of it where you don't take feedback from someone, you don't take negative feedback from someone you would never take advice from.
	Yeah.
	So, your mother is an evil, shitty thief who's shacked up with a drug addict, right?
	Yeah, and then I have to believe her that I'm not worth it.
	Well, so then, like, what fucking credibility could she possibly have?
	Nothing.
	Oh, please, evil goblin thief who steals from her own daughter, lies and forges documents, a literal criminal who's shacked up with a drug addict.
	Oh, please, tell me all the ways in which you've objectively judged my worth.
	I'm laughing right now.
	Good!
	It's normally, yeah, you're completely right.
	It's really sad, but it's true.
	Yeah, I mean, my mother repeatedly told me she hated me as a kid.
	Do I think I'm hateful?
	No.
	She's a completely screwed up human being.
	It's almost a compliment.
	I mean, God help me if my mother had approved of me.
	Thank you.
	I mean, your mother approves of the drug addict goblin boyfriend, who probably participated in the theft.
	Thank you.
	Yeah, I know.
	Oh no, evil people don't like me.
	Yeah.
	Evil people don't like me, that's true.
	But I think it's hard to...
	Remind yourself of this, because then you're looking, and every people you're looking to things like this, I think it's a protection thing.
	As a kid, you couldn't say to your mother and stepfather, you guys are evil goblins who are half-destroying your children.
	Because they would have gone crazy, right?
	They would have escalated, it would have been very dangerous, and a bad idea, right?
	Yeah, so with my boyfriend, it's boyfriend, ex-boyfriend, we don't know.
	It's like, how can I explain this?
	It's like he is exactly like me, but we're both dealing with situations completely different.
	So if we are talking about a thing For me, it's always a discussion.
	And it's like, oh no, I need to tell you how I think or how I feel about this.
	And then he's more like, hmm, I have to think about it for days or for weeks.
	And I'm the one who wants to talk about it right now.
	Okay, Adam.
	So we're trying to deal with your parents and you're taking me on some journey in this three-month relationship.
	Yeah, we can talk about my parents.
	No, because we just had a real connection there with regards to the voice in your head saying you're worth nothing.
	And, you know, the fact that your parents seem to me to be pretty evil people and criminals, or at least one.
	Well, I guess the drugs are illegal too, that the stepfather is involved in, right?
	My stepbrother.
	Sorry, is it only your stepbrother who's into drugs, not your stepfather?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, my apologies.
	Okay.
	So, we had a connection there, because I'm trying to give you ammunition against the voices that say you're worthless.
	Now, the voices that say you're worthless are trying to save you.
	Yeah, but from what?
	Well, from your mother.
	So, the problem is, if you were to go to your mother, right, and say, like, let's say you were eight or nine years old, right?
	And you were to go to your mother, and you were to say, Mom, okay, sit down.
	Sit down.
	We need to talk.
	Mom, you're doing a terrible job.
	Terrible.
	You know, I have to flee.
	I get more affection from giant quadrupeds.
	I get more affection from horses.
	Then for my own mother, you're doing a terrible job with my brother, you're doing a terrible job with me, and I have no connection with the stepfather, with your husband.
	So I need you to go to parenting classes.
	I need you to shape up and stop being so terrible at this because it's really bad for your kids.
	So I've got a list of parenting classes you can take.
	I would strongly suggest psychotherapy.
	I've got a list of therapists.
	That you go and talk to because you need to deal with whatever is making you such a terrible mother because I won't stand for it.
	I really won't stand for it.
	And if you don't get better, I'm going to have to call Child Protective Services because this is dangerous and risky.
	Now, what would have happened?
	I don't know.
	If I would speak like this at this age, I don't know.
	She would be speechless.
	Yeah, but then she would not be speechless.
	I don't know.
	Maybe she is sitting there and think about the whole situation and would say, oh, okay, yeah, you're completely right.
	She would shit again against me and would say, no, are you stupid?
	I don't need anything.
	You are a kid.
	I'm the adult, so...
	I don't know.
	So then I, as you, I would say, I'm a kid, I'm your kid.
	You're providing me services as a parent, and you suck!
	You're just unbelievably bad.
	Like, if you go to a restaurant and somebody serves you vomit, feces, and semen in your salad, you're sending it back, right?
	And if the person were to say, hey, man, you're not a chef, it's like, yes, but I'm supposed to eat this slop.
	This is like some satanic ritual.
	This is not a salad.
	Right, so if you were to say, like, I would say it's you to your mother, no, I absolutely can judge your parenting because I'm your client.
	I'm the customer.
	I'm the customer, and I'm telling you, you suck, and you need to get better.
	This is just appalling.
	Yeah, that's, as a kid, I don't know.
	As a kid, I wouldn't have the power to say this.
	No, no, I'm not saying, please understand, I'm not saying you should have said this as a kid.
	What I'm saying is that, did you ever look at your parents and say, you guys suck?
	No.
	Okay.
	No, not out loud.
	I mean, just to yourself, did you ever look at your parents and say, you guys don't know what you're doing.
	You're overgrown children, and that's an insult to children.
	Like, you're chaotic, you're confused, you're conflict-ridden, you're anxious, you're bizarre, you're dysfunctional, you're messed up, like...
	Why would I prefer horses to my own flesh and blood unless my own flesh and blood was half demonic?
	Like, did you ever look at your parents when you were a kid and say, you know, I don't know what you're doing?
	Yeah, but in another way.
	So, in a fight, I said to my mother that she's a bad mother, that she sucks, and...
	Okay, what age did you do that?
	From, I don't know, seven, eight...
	Okay, so you did make complaints against your mother and how she was parenting you, right?
	Yeah, but not in a nice way.
	It's more like...
	Oh, no, I get that.
	I get that.
	I get that.
	So, here's another irony, that you called your mother a terrible mother and yelled at her from the age of seven or eight onwards, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	But God forbid your brother pull up some plants.
	Then he's just terrible.
	Mm-mm, yep.
	I'm going to keep fighting for the younger brother.
	I am a younger brother, so I take it very personally.
	No, I'm kidding, right?
	But I mean, I think it's important, right?
	Okay.
	I've protected him so many times, and he shits on me again and again and again.
	Yes, well, I tried to give you some compassion there for your brother, but you've gone back to blaming him.
	Which comes at a huge cost to you, by the way.
	Just so you know.
	It comes at a huge cost.
	He was more of a victim than you were, in many ways.
	Not in all ways, but in many ways.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Okay, so you did complain to your mother, and did it help?
	No.
	No.
	Okay, so you were unable to affect any positive change.
	So when you are a kid, and your mother either says or implies that you're worthless and will never be loved...
	You have to internalize that voice.
	Because if someone says to you, hey, listen, you're eight years old, you're a little girl, either you punch yourself or I punch you, which would you prefer?
	Punching myself?
	Of course, you can control that, right?
	You can't control somebody else punching you, but you can control how hard or not hard you punch yourself, right?
	Yeah.
	So it is easier and safer to self-attack.
	Because then you stop doing the behavior that provokes your mother.
	Because if you say to your mother or you act...
	Like, let me give you this example.
	So, most kids, even if they've had an unhappy childhood, most kids have moments of grace, of beauty, of joy, of happiness.
	Right, so let's say that you were home and you were six or seven or eight years old and for some reason you heard a lovely song on the radio and you were just dancing and singing and having a great old time as a little kid.
	What would your parents do?
	Saying nothing?
	So they wouldn't criticize you for being too loud?
	They wouldn't say anything negative?
	They would just completely ignore you like you weren't there?
	That's a difficult question because I didn't have the situation.
	Okay, if you can imagine the situation that you, as a six-year-old, are dancing and singing and so on, I actually have a show on FDRpodcast.com when my daughter was two.
	She was singing at the top of her lungs about all the people she loved and all the people she didn't like, like the men with mustaches and so on.
	And she was just having a ball.
	And I tried singing with her and she's like, Dad, no, maybe I just sing.
	And I thought it was really cute and I ended up publishing it as a show.
	You can listen to it and she's having a ball.
	I thought it was delightful, right?
	Now, if you can imagine...
	Your parents in a bad mood with a happy child.
	How would they react?
	I can remind of situations where I listen to music and if I hear the dog, then I stopped the music.
	Right, because if your parents had come home and seen you happy, what would they have said?
	I think they wouldn't say anything.
	I would say they would black out the radio thing and turn around and say nothing.
	So they would disapprove?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, as a teenager, I used to put the music on, I used to listen to Pete Townsend's Face to Face, and yeses, it can happen, and just dance my ass off.
	But I had to make sure nobody was home.
	I had to make sure nobody was home.
	Because otherwise, I would have been criticized, mocked, humiliated, attacked, scorned, you know, that kind of stuff, right?
	So, in other words, if you're happy around your parents, it is annoying or negative for them.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So then you have to make sure when your parents are around that you're not happy, otherwise you will get attacked.
	Does that make sense?
	I think, yeah.
	Okay.
	So then you have to suppress your own happiness in order to avoid being attacked by your parents.
	Yeah, so I have to control my emotions.
	You have to attack yourself so that your parents don't attack you because it's better to punch yourself than to have somebody else punch you.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Okay.
	So that's where the voice comes from.
	But the voice is there to protect you from your parents.
	It just doesn't protect you anymore because you're an adult.
	Now it's a danger.
	Yeah.
	And not everybody else are like my parents.
	Well, you're saying that the danger is still in your environment, even though you're an adult.
	Yeah.
	As an adult, you can dance your ass off and have a lot of fun and sing at the top of your lungs, and who cares?
	I mean, maybe you have neighbors or whatever, but you know what I mean.
	Like, you can put on headphones, you can dance around, you can have a lot of fun, and who cares?
	I mean, but in your head, you've got these parents Who were like, happiness equals horror.
	Yeah.
	Stopping me right now.
	My own voice is in my own head.
	Stopping me from having fun.
	And being loved.
	So your boyfriend had some affection for you and that caused your inner parents to rise up and say that you're worth nothing.
	Yeah.
	Because the experience of affection is danger.
	Which is why I'm trying to give you some affection to your brother.
	I call him tomorrow.
	Alright.
	Be nice to him.
	I'm totally nice to him.
	Okay.
	That's two.
	Alright.
	Okay.
	But do you understand?
	So when...
	When someone shows affection to us, it's dangerous because when we are neglected or abused, or both, as children, we are not allowed to have allies that will do anything about it.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I mean, honestly, the neighbors, it's nice that they put you up from the age of three or four onwards, to some degree, right?
	But it's also, you were allowed to go over there because they weren't coming over to your house and saying, all right, come on, why is this three or four-year-old coming to our place all the time?
	This is not right.
	Like, what's wrong at home that she keeps coming over?
	If they had done that, you would not have been allowed over anymore.
	That's true.
	Right?
	So, anybody who shows you affection puts you at risk.
	Because if your parents openly get that there's affection that's supporting you and so on, then they will move to take that positive influence out of your life so that you're easier to control.
	Yeah.
	Like, you know, the cliché of the crazy girlfriend who separates her boyfriend from his friends?
	And she does that so that her friends don't say, she's crazy, man, like, this is not healthy.
	She isolates him, and in the same way, your parents want to keep you isolated and feeling unworthy, so you don't call the cops on them or put them to jail or make them pay a big fine, or whatever you would do, you don't confront them.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Alright, so your boyfriend shows some affection to you, and was it at the end of the three months where you got suicidal?
	No, no, no.
	He was after my hospital.
	Oh, he was...
	Sorry, I'm not sure when...
	No, no, before I had another boyfriend, he was very...
	Yeah, criminal against me.
	He hits me several times and shit like this.
	And the one now got me more out of this situation.
	So I was in the hospital.
	I knew him before, but not in a romantic way.
	But then he tries to get me out of this situation with this shitty Ex-boyfriend, the hospital staff, my mental illness, and so on.
	So, yeah.
	Alright, I'm going to refer to them as Hans 1 and Hans 2. Hans 1 is the violent guy, Hans 2 is the white knight.
	Is that fair?
	Ah, funny.
	German names, okay.
	I know, hey, you know I'm half German, right?
	Stefan!
	Yes, I am half German.
	Okay, so Hans Wan is violent.
	And where did you end up in the mental hospital?
	Was it during the relationship with Hans Wan or after the breakup?
	It was before the breakup.
	Oh, before the breakup.
	Okay, so you go, you become suicidal.
	How long did the relationship with Hans Wan go?
	One year.
	One year, okay.
	So towards the end of that, you get suicidal, you end up in hospital.
	Now, how often was Hans-Swan violent towards you?
	Four times really bad.
	And the other things were, yeah, I don't know.
	So, four times really bad physically.
	Like black eye bad?
	Hospital bad?
	Broken bone bad?
	With, um, what's the word for Würgemahle?
	If you put your hands on your neck.
	Oh, choking.
	Yeah, with bad choking marks.
	Oh, so, and did he leave bruises on your throat and so on?
	Yeah, and black-eyed and things like this.
	And did you go to the doctor?
	One time it ended up with the police, because I was running half-naked down the street here.
	Because he did everything.
	He put me on the wall, he threw me on the floor.
	He choked me and things like this, and I was running, running, running, and with my mobile, I had the button with the, not security call, the emergency call.
	Yeah, yeah, 911. Oh, they showed up.
	Yeah, they showed up, and I have to go to the crime police and talk against him.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So this was the last time.
	Is he off the streets?
	I mean, he assaulted you, and I don't know, choking is very dangerous, right?
	Yeah, it's like you tried to kill someone.
	Yeah, it's attempted murder, right?
	I mean, I'm not talking legally, I mean, just it can be very dangerous, right?
	Yeah.
	So is he in jail?
	No, he's not.
	It's sadly not working like this here.
	Oh, so he just walked away?
	Yeah, he has to say nothing to the police, because if you are the bad one, you can, of course, take a lawyer for this.
	But he also lives on the streets...
	Sorry, but he was chasing you, and you had injuries, and I assume that if he punched you, his knuckles were hurt.
	I mean, isn't there, I'm not obviously a cop or a lawyer, but isn't that enough to get him at least charged?
	No, sadly not.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Or not in Germany.
	I don't know.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Oh, you're okay, but you are still living, so it's not that bad.
	Yeah, this happened.
	Okay, we can tell him that you don't have to do this again.
	Wow.
	Okay, so how long into the year-long relationship with Francois was he violent with you?
	You know, four times bad.
	No, no, but when you said you were dating a year, was it a week, a month, two months, three months when he first was violent with you?
	No, it was at the end.
	Oh, so the four times at the end.
	At the beginning it was more emotionally, so yeah, it was the end.
	Okay.
	So, was it when you tried to leave, or was there something other that provoked him, do you think?
	Every time I find out that he lied to me.
	Oh, so when you found out he lied to you, then you get violent?
	Yeah, then I try to get the truth out of his own house.
	And then he starts to protect himself with...
	Okay.
	then he turns the situation and I was the shitty part and like yeah it's my mother's voice again you don't worth it you're so stupid things like this and yeah And your boyfriend, Hans Won, sorry, he knew about your history, right?
	He knew about, did he know about what had happened to you as a child?
	So he used that, right?
	He used that too?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And you said earlier, sorry, you said earlier he was verbally abusive.
	Was that from very early on?
	No, he was a good friend of mine for years, so...
	We know each other for more than, I don't know, 14 years.
	Oh, so you knew him as a kid?
	Yeah.
	And what was his family like?
	His family is really nice.
	I mean, do you think that people just become violent when they come from happy, good families?
	No, but yeah, he has also some problems because He thinks that his brother gets all the attention from his parents.
	And he started to getting attention from some groups here in Germany.
	And so, in my opinion, he was on the wrong way.
	In the past, now he's He starts getting better, but he has also old behaviors.
	And what was it that drew you to him, do you think?
	Why were you attracted to him?
	What drew you to him?
	That he knows me, that he gave me this physical attention, That he tries to be nice to me, that we try to make nice things, do nice things.
	Okay, but that's not very believable if he's verbally abusive and violent.
	I mean, is he very good looking?
	Is he tall?
	Does he have a look that you really like?
	Or is there something else that was appealing to him?
	No, exactly.
	Totally not.
	Oh, he's not attracted?
	Okay.
	No.
	Alright.
	Okay, so you...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	So it was...
	He was fighting for me.
	So we were friends for years.
	For a really long, long time we were friends.
	So he really fights for my attention and I didn't realize that first, and then he said, hey, sorry, are you so stupid?
	Didn't you see that I'm into you?
	Yeah, and then it starts getting nice.
	Sorry, did he say, why are you so stupid, I'm attracted to you, at the beginning?
	Yeah, it's a joke.
	Okay, not that funny.
	Yeah, I know, but yeah, He said this like, hey, I'm attracted to you.
	Can't you see this?
	And I was like, no, sorry.
	I thought you'd only be nice to me.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you break up with him.
	There's the violence.
	There's the police are involved and so on.
	And was it after that that you became suicidal and ended up in the hospital?
	No, it was the police thing was before.
	And then he was nice again.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	You stayed with him after you're running down the street half naked and he's choked you?
	Yep.
	Why?
	I don't know.
	Sure you do.
	No, I really don't know.
	You absolutely do.
	I mean, you don't behave randomly.
	You weren't assigned this guy through some curse, right?
	And why did you stay with him after he's this violent?
	Black eyes and choking and police and chasing you down the street half naked.
	I mean, why did you stay with him?
	I would say because I thought I would get the guy back I started to love.
	So for me, he was in this moment a completely different guy.
	But he never changed back, so of course he never changed back.
	So he was violent to you, and you thought he would be nice.
	Yeah, I've tried to get an answer for this, an explanation for this why.
	I wanted the why from him.
	And I think it's a little bit of...
	So the why from him.
	The why is not from him, the why is from you.
	Yeah, but why...
	The question isn't why is he violent.
	He's not going to tell you that.
	He may not know.
	If he knew, he probably wouldn't be violent.
	He wouldn't act it out.
	The question isn't, why was he violent?
	The question is, why were you there?
	And why did you go back?
	And why did you stay?
	And all of that.
	I don't know.
	It's like a habit.
	It was a habit to stay with them every day and spending time together and And making nice things?
	I don't know.
	It's like I've tried to be in this situation again from the beginning and not realize what happened right now in this situation.
	It's like an excuse for myself to not having this voice again in my mind.
	Like, ah, you're not worth it.
	Oh, maybe if he's aggressive towards you, you can resist the voice.
	No, it's not like this.
	No?
	Okay.
	It was like I totally blacked out the thing with him, that he was not nice to me.
	I don't know.
	It's like I wouldn't...
	I don't want to believe this, that this happened.
	You don't want to believe?
	I mean, it's literally a police report.
	It's pretty hard to gaslight yourself, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so how long did you stay with him after the police involvement?
	Three weeks, two weeks.
	Okay, and then what?
	And then I was sad, overwhelmed, everything was too much.
	I was thinking about the situation again, why did this happen to me and why I deserve this and stuff like this.
	Of course, the whole thing with my family comes up again.
	And then I made the decision to try to end up my life and ended up in the hospital.
	It was very...
	Yeah, then I was in the mental hospital.
	And then...
	Hans too showed up.
	And what happens then?
	We had a good time.
	He shows me how to enjoy life.
	We were on a vacation.
	It was very nice.
	But...
	I don't know if this is a German thing or not, but...
	If I try to explain things to him, it's like I sound arrogant or harsh.
	And I don't mean things like this.
	I don't know if this is a language barrier or not.
	Because he's from England, I'm from Germany.
	So he don't speak German.
	Sometimes it's very difficult and the culture is very difficult too.
	For example, Germans are not nice.
	In Germany, if you're too late at work, it's not, oh, thank you that you show up at work.
	Maybe I can buy you an alarm clock so tomorrow you're on time.
	I don't know.
	In Germany, it's like, oh, okay, you can turn around and go away.
	You're fired or something like this.
	Yeah, so sometimes I think it's a language barrier, but sometimes I'm getting angry about myself that I can't explain it correctly.
	And then I feel like he It judges me in a wrong way.
	Sorry, I'm getting a little lost.
	I'm trying to understand why Hans 2 dated you when you were in a mental hospital for a suicide attempt.
	After it, after I come outside.
	Okay, but how long were you in?
	How long were you inside?
	Um, two months.
	Okay.
	So, how long after you got out did he start dating you?
	I think two months, two, two or three.
	Okay.
	So, you are suicidal, you try, you go to the mental hospital for two months, and then two or three months after you're out, Hans 2 is dating you.
	Yeah, we knew each other before.
	I know.
	I know.
	So why is he dating you when you've just gone through a very severe mental crisis, I think is probably a fair way to put it.
	Yeah, I think because he tried to help me.
	Well, I don't know that helping involves dating.
	No, normally not.
	I really don't know.
	You've been listening to my show for a little under a year, is that right?
	Not really.
	The last thing I listened to from you was with the pets.
	Okay, so you haven't listened much, is that right?
	That's correct, yeah.
	Okay, so I want you to imagine, I'll take you on a journey, a little word vacation here.
	So I want you to imagine Hans 2 calls into my show, right?
	He calls in and he says, you know, there's this girl, she's smart, she's attractive, she comes from a very messed up household, and she thinks she might be the product of rape, and she tried to kill herself a couple of months ago, she was in a mental hospital, and I want to date her.
	Yeah, that sounds crazy.
	Well, what do you think I would say to him?
	Turn around and run as fast as you can.
	No, no, not run.
	I mean, if you care about the woman, sure.
	I mean, whatever, right?
	But would I say to him, it sounds great.
	I'm sure it'll work out well.
	Yeah, I think that sounds like a long-term relationship then.
	Thank you.
	Sounds like, oh, okay, you're the helper, and she's the...
	How can I explain this?
	Well, he has...
	Look, with Hans Wan, you did not have...
	A sense of self-protection, and you put yourself into danger repeatedly, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if he's choking you around the neck, you can die, right?
	Correct, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, you were putting yourself in significant danger, right?
	And I sympathize, I really do.
	I'm not criticizing or blaming, I'm just saying that that's a fact, right?
	Now, Hans, too, by dating a girl who was recently suicidal, He's also putting himself in danger.
	I mean, his heart, right?
	Of course.
	So, what you and Hans, too, have in common is a deficiency of self-protection, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, of course, both.
	And the deficiency of self-protection also may have been involved with the motorcycle accident.
	I don't know, but a deficiency of self-protection.
	Yeah.
	So why does Hans 2 not have anyone in his life who slaps him in the face with a giant wet fish and says, if you want to help her, okay, whatever, don't date her.
	She's not in a dating place.
	Why didn't you say?
	you Hans, too.
	Lovely guy.
	I'm not in a dating place.
	I said this.
	Well, did he not listen?
	He listened.
	Okay, so you said, I don't want to date, and he listened, so then I guess the inevitable question is, how did you end up dating?
	I really don't want to go to Dusseldorf.
	No, me neither.
	Oh, my God, we're in Dusseldorf.
	Oh, it's nice here.
	We can stay here.
	Yeah.
	I don't know.
	I think if things happen, they happen.
	No, no.
	Things don't happen.
	Come on.
	This is not a volcano.
	These are all choices.
	Peter geht an den See.
	Hey, he's at the sea.
	I wonder how.
	Well, no, he went.
	He geht an den See.
	So, okay.
	It's like, oh, no, I'm not in the right time now to date you.
	And it's like, yeah, okay, we have time.
	It's okay.
	And I really don't know.
	He was nice.
	He wanted me.
	This was enough.
	Okay.
	So you date him and it lasts three months.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And when did you break up?
	I know it's half and half, but when did you break up?
	Last week.
	Okay.
	And why did you break up?
	He comes to Germany, and normally we want to spend a good time together, but I started working again because he said, hey, you need to go to work again, and I said, hey, sorry, I'm not ready for it, not now.
	Wait, sorry, Hans too said he came to visit you, and then Hans too said you need to go to work while I'm visiting you?
	No, no, no, before, before.
	So before he comes to visit you, he says, you need to go to work.
	Again, yes.
	And then he comes to visit you after you've gone to work.
	While I'm working.
	No, no, I get that.
	I get that.
	So you're working during the day, and he's just, what, hanging around your place?
	Hanging around my work at this table.
	What, he was hanging around your work?
	What do you mean?
	Yeah, he comes with me to the work.
	Why would he come with you to the work?
	He wanted to see this.
	And I said to him, sorry, it's very stressful.
	And trust me, Germans at work are very difficult.
	Very difficult.
	It's not, hey, can you please step...
	I don't know where you are in the middle of my way.
	It's like, go away!
	Yeah, so...
	I don't know if he's too sensitive to understand that it's normal speaking in German.
	But it was like this.
	I'm working with young horses.
	They are very wild.
	They are kicking, biting.
	I don't know what.
	My boss is very...
	So you're also in danger at work.
	Of course, I'm in danger.
	He's in danger.
	Everyone around me is in danger.
	And I don't want to look, oh, where is my boy?
	I don't want to jump into him with the horse.
	So where is he?
	I don't want to have an eye on him too.
	Yeah, so my boss screamed at me.
	Everybody else screamed at each other.
	Yeah, like Germans do their jobs.
	And Then we drove back home.
	And on the next morning, I didn't hear my alarm clock.
	So after I woke up, he's laying next to me with his mobile in his hand, and he exactly knew when I have to wake up for work.
	And then I do my stuff.
	And then I said to him, hey, sorry, we have to go right now.
	It's fucking late.
	And we need to drive an hour to my work.
	Yeah, and then he started to go to the toilet first.
	Yeah, of course.
	Then I was very mean to him and said to him, sorry, but you knew this before.
	You're sitting on your phone for I don't know how long.
	You didn't walk me up.
	You need to go to the toilet after you were waiting here until I got ready to dress me up.
	But the toilet was free all the time.
	So why right now?
	I mean, you go when you go.
	I mean, you can't force it out ahead of time.
	Yeah, so he said the same thing to me, too.
	The reason I didn't go before was I didn't have to go before.
	Yeah, he said to me, yeah, okay, you can go to work, so it's your job, then drive to your job.
	And leave me alone here.
	And I said to him, yeah, sorry, but both ways would be wrong for you.
	If I would leave you because I need to be there in time, it would be wrong.
	And if I'm waiting for you, it's wrong because then I'm getting late to work.
	Sorry, why is it wrong for you to go to work?
	And leave him, like leave him at your flat.
	Yeah, leave him alone here at my place because he wants to show up at my work too.
	No, no, but he said go to work and I'll stay here.
	Sorry, you said that would be bad and I'm just trying to understand why.
	He didn't say this at this moment.
	He said this after we discussed about the situation in the car.
	No, no, but you said, if you come with me, I have to wait, and so I'm going to be late.
	But if I leave you here, that's bad as well.
	And I'm not sure why it was bad for you to leave him there.
	Ah, okay.
	No, I get it.
	Because then he would say, sorry, but why didn't you wait these five or ten minutes?
	Nobody would die if you come five or ten minutes too late.
	Right.
	Yeah, okay, he's right with this, but sorry, things don't work like this in Germany, then you don't have a job after the day anymore.
	Yeah, but you chose to date a non-German guy, right?
	Yeah, that's correct.
	So, I mean, of course he doesn't know exactly how things work in Germany.
	Yeah, I know, I know.
	I mean, it's like me dating a Japanese woman and then being upset that she has Japanese habits.
	I mean, I don't quite understand what that means.
	No, I like him like he is, but I'm missing the time to know each other better in this thing.
	Okay, so sorry, what happened with this conflict?
	Yeah, we discussed about this, so I drove faster with the car, and then he said, oh, I'm scared.
	I said, okay, then I can slow down the car.
	Yeah, and after work, we drove back at home.
	And he knew about your motorcycle accident, right?
	Yeah, but this doesn't matter with the situation.
	No, I mean, if you've already had a motorcycle accident and you're driving much too fast, you can understand why he might have some anxiety about that.
	Yeah, but he wasn't afraid of me in this situation.
	It was like...
	I have another job.
	He knows that I can really drive cars.
	So, yeah, he was scared.
	I mean, are we talking Autobahn fast?
	No, no, no.
	I'm just wondering if you were hitting light speed or something.
	Okay.
	No, no, no, no.
	All right, so you slow down and then what happens?
	Yeah, we had this discussion because he tried to Say to me that he is right.
	And I said, no, there is no right or wrong.
	You are right in the things you said to me.
	But I'm also right that I don't want to come late to work.
	So you need to understand me too.
	And yeah, after work, we were at home.
	And then he told me a sensitive topic.
	I don't want to talk about this right now here because I don't want to put him in this.
	But it was a thing where he hurted me with.
	And I felt like, okay, why didn't you trust me like this?
	So he had a surgery and he didn't talk to me about the surgery and he lied to me for three weeks.
	That he's in the gym and being here and there and something like this.
	And he didn't answer my phone calls, my video calls.
	And every time I had him on the phone, I was like, hey, you're different since you left Germany.
	What happened?
	Sorry, this is before he came for this last visit, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And yeah, then he said, no, nothing.
	I'm the same person.
	And I said, yeah, maybe, but not your behavior right now.
	What happened?
	Yeah, you don't want to mess with Germans on pattern recognition.
	You guys are fantastic at that.
	I mean, maybe I've got half of that too, but yeah, pattern recognition for Germans is pretty good.
	But anyway, go on.
	Yeah, so he said, no, there's nothing.
	I'm not hiding anything else.
	For you, there's nothing.
	Maybe I'm sad.
	Maybe I'm tired.
	I don't know.
	And then I said, yeah, okay.
	Then he's a grown-up man, okay?
	If you don't want to tell me, then you don't want to tell me or have to tell me.
	It's okay.
	So, yeah.
	Then he told me this after we come back at my home from work.
	So I started crying because for me it was very sensitive because I want to be the person he is calling and said, Hey babe, I'm fine.
	Everything went good.
	It's fine.
	It's okay.
	Yeah, so I was so sad that I started crying and he was like, Okay, why are you crying?
	It's not about your feelings.
	It's about my feelings.
	And I said, yeah.
	Sorry, sorry, I'm a little lost.
	So he told you something sensitive, which you don't want to talk about now, which is fine.
	And then did you find out that he had a surgery or this was still unknown to you at this point?
	Yeah, I don't want to talk about the kind of surgery.
	No, that's fine.
	But did you find out, like, I'm trying to understand why you're crying at this point.
	I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just not sure why.
	Because for me, it was, yeah, it was like I've lost all my trust in him.
	Oh, so you found out about the surgery and then you got upset?
	Yeah.
	So he finally told you about the surgery and you got upset.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah.
	He told me, hey, I have something that would hurt you.
	And I said, okay, go on.
	And then he said, yeah, he had a surgery.
	He didn't talk to me about this.
	Then he showed me his scars.
	And yeah, I started crying because I'm getting upset that he didn't told me before because I want to be there for him.
	I want to listen to him.
	I want to be the one who takes care of him in this moment.
	So he was completely alone and this made me so sad because I was so often alone in my life.
	And yeah, okay, maybe it's a thing to deal with.
	And did he say why he hadn't told you?
	Yeah, he said it was his own decision and he wants to be in the best shape for me.
	I don't know how to explain this.
	You don't have to answer this.
	Was it for his health or was it cosmetic?
	Cosmetic.
	Oh, really?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And, yeah, maybe mental health for him.
	Well, not usually, but yeah, all right.
	Yeah, for me it was very sad.
	Okay, so just in the interest of time, I just want to make sure we get to the final conclusions here.
	So is this what caused you to break up?
	Yes, a little bit.
	Because, yeah, I can't stop crying the whole night, and every time I had tears in my eyes, he started asking, what's wrong, what's wrong?
	And I said to him, sorry, I don't want to talk about it right now, because last time I tried to talk with you about this, you start getting angry.
	Yeah, so, of course, I talked to him.
	Sorry, I haven't heard about him getting angry.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	He's getting angry all the time about this because he said, it's not about me.
	It's about his feelings.
	And he has to do this because he wants to be the best version for me.
	And I said to him, sorry, you were perfect for me.
	I've told you so many times that you're perfect, that I love every part of your body.
	And why did you do this without talking with me?
	Of course, if you want to do things You can tell me, I'm the last person who would say, no, don't do this.
	If you want this so bad, okay, do this.
	But tell me that you would have a surgery.
	Okay, so you were crying and you wouldn't talk to him about it?
	I've talked with him about it.
	No, no, but sorry, you just said that you would have tears in your eyes, he'd ask you what's going on, and you'd say, I don't want to talk about it.
	Not like this.
	I said to him, yeah, you exactly know.
	What's wrong?
	Why I'm crying?
	So I don't want to talk about it, like, again.
	Because then he would start again with, oh, it's my feeling and not yours.
	Okay.
	Yeah, so I started to talk again about this and said to him again how I feel and why and that I'm sad about this.
	And, yeah, then he started getting angry again, like, oh, it's my feelings, not yours, blah, blah.
	Yeah, so I felt so alone and said to him, sorry, I'm so alone.
	The only thing I want from you is not this shitty conversation right now because here is no happy end in this conversation.
	I need you right now.
	I need your hand.
	I need a kiss from you.
	I need a hug from you.
	It doesn't matter.
	Something from you.
	Oh, that's like how you used to ask or think about asking your mother.
	Yeah, exactly.
	And he was very cold.
	So for me, my wish was, after he told me about the surgery and showed me everything, that he would hug me in this moment and say things like, not I'm sorry, but like, hey, I'm here for you and with you.
	It's our battle and not me against you.
	Yes, but if he had emotional skills, he wouldn't date a woman recently released from a mental hospital.
	Like, honestly, I mean, I'm just going to be blunt, right?
	If he had emotional sensitivity and skills, he might be there for you as a friend, but not as a lover.
	That's true, true.
	So that's baked into the beginning.
	The fact that he would date you after you went through this terrible crisis, and I really sympathize with all of this, of course, right?
	But the fact that he would date you means that he doesn't have much emotional skills because this was a predictable disaster from the beginning.
	So the fact that he can't comfort you, he's only there because he doesn't have emotional skills.
	Yeah, but he did at the beginning.
	So it was like I didn't have to tell him That I'm sad or something like this.
	Or that I'm afraid of things.
	He already knew this.
	Then it changed.
	And then it starts with his words like, oh, you're really mean to me.
	And I said, sorry, I'm not mean to you.
	I'm only asking you, can you please call me back?
	I have a problem.
	Or can you please call me back?
	I need you right now.
	Wait, sorry, I thought you guys were together.
	What do you mean by call me back?
	The weeks before.
	Okay.
	When he has a surgery.
	Oh, okay.
	I've called him many times.
	So hang on.
	So you guys are together in Germany.
	You're having this conflict.
	And then I just need to get to the breakup part.
	So what happened for the breakup?
	Yeah.
	I've told him, hey, I need you.
	I need a hug from you.
	I only need something from you.
	I'm so sad.
	Yeah, and then he said, sorry.
	He was very cold and then he said, sorry, but I want to discuss this.
	I've told you I never want to talk about this again.
	I showed you and I've told you that I had the surgery.
	Yeah, and I started crying, crying, crying.
	And then I said to him, look, you're totally not happy with me.
	And then he said, yeah, of course I'm not happy.
	But I think it was a complete...
	Misunderstanding between each other.
	And then he packed his bags and I said, what are you doing?
	And he said, you're leaving you.
	And I said, why?
	And he said, yeah, because you broke up with me.
	And I said, no, I only said, sorry, but I can see that you are not happy with me.
	You don't want to talk with me.
	You don't want to hug me or kiss me.
	I don't know what.
	Yeah.
	And then we didn't talk that much.
	She turned around and goes away and fly back home.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And that was last week, right?
	I'll talk.
	That was last week?
	Yeah.
	And have you had much contact since?
	Yeah.
	First, very shitty.
	And now it's okay.
	But I feel like he's shitting on me all the time.
	That I did everything wrong and that I'm mean to him.
	That's, in my opinion, very sad because it's every time like, hey, how are you?
	What are you doing?
	And yeah, it's one-sided.
	I have to call him.
	I have to text him.
	Has he expressed any desire to be a couple again?
	Yeah, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
	Okay.
	Would you like some practical advice about these kinds of conflicts?
	Of course.
	Okay.
	So, he lied to you about his surgery or withheld it from you, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, you took that personally?
	No, I tried to understand why I was on his side.
	So, for me, it was more important that he has some reasons why he didn't tell me this.
	Maybe because it's...
	Yeah, what's the English word for it?
	Like trauma of childhood or embarrassing?
	Okay, so how did it go from you being genuinely curious why he would have withheld something from you to you crying all night?
	Yeah, my mother's voice again.
	Well, no, that doesn't...
	So, something changed, right?
	So, you ended up being hurt by his secrecy.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, how old is he?
	41. Sorry, what now?
	41. He's 41?
	Yeah.
	Gosh, what are you doing?
	And now you're shocked.
	Yeah, sorry.
	So, he was 17 when you were born.
	He could drive a car and you were coming home from the hospital in a baby seat.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Alright.
	So, he kept a secret from you, and we always have a choice, and I'm not saying you didn't make the right choice, but I'm just outlining this.
	So, when someone does something that's upsetting to us, we can either focus on them, or we can focus on us.
	If we focus on how hurt and upset we are, it always goes badly.
	Okay.
	People are going to do and say things that upset you over the course of being in a relationship.
	Now, you have a choice.
	You can either say, I'm so hurt, I'm so upset, you did me wrong, wailing self-pity, hand on the forehead, fainting spells, I mean, obviously that's being a bit ridiculous, but you can be upset and be angry and be hurt, and they have to make it all better, and so on, right?
	Or, you can just say, wow, that's, I mean, that's interesting that you didn't want to tell me.
	Help me understand that.
	Rather than taking it personally and getting upset.
	Yeah, the last thing I've tried first.
	No, no, there's no trying first.
	That's all you do.
	You don't go into the temptation of being offended and upset and hurt and rejected and you lied and, right, all of this moralizing, right?
	No, this moralizing thing I didn't do.
	I was like, oh, okay.
	Okay, I'm going to just interrupt you because I understood that you told me, I'm sorry if I got this wrong, but I understood that you told me that you were crying all night.
	He's like, what's wrong?
	And then you said, I don't want to talk about it.
	And he said, you're making it all about you.
	No, no, no, no.
	So after he told me about the surgery, I was very understanding and asked him, okay, what is the reason why you hide this from me?
	And he is getting very aggressive about the theme or his surgery and said, I don't want to talk about the surgery.
	I did this because I want to be a better version for you.
	And then I said to him, Like, I understand this.
	Yeah, but for me, you were perfect.
	So why?
	I want you to understand the why.
	It's okay.
	We don't have to talk about this.
	Yeah, and then I started crying or trying to hold my tears back.
	Okay, so why were you crying?
	Because he didn't want to talk or tell me.
	Okay, so why is that hurtful to you?
	I don't know, because I think I'm not worth it.
	You can't say to him, I need the answers as to why you do what you do, and then you don't have any answers for why you do what you do, which is cry.
	To understand this, to understand what is the reason why he is hiding things from me.
	Right.
	So, it's normally to do things better, to know him better, to know how he feels about things and what can I do to make him feel comfortable with it, to tell me things like this.
	Okay, so you didn't have any accusation.
	You lied.
	You kept things from me.
	You hid things from me.
	That's bad.
	You were just open and curious with great emotional sensitivity and he just got mad for no reason.
	I think you would have some reasons for it, but he didn't tell me.
	Okay, but there's no reason that you can make any sense of, right?
	No, right.
	Okay, so if you were like, oh gosh, I'm a little surprised, but I'm obviously, you know, I'm happy you told me now, and I'm just really curious why...
	Why the secrecy?
	I mean, I'm not offended.
	I just would like to understand why.
	Now, and he's just like, I'm not going to talk about it.
	He's just really angry, right?
	Okay, so then he's not someone who responds to reason and curiosity.
	So then why do you want to date him?
	He's this immature in his 40s.
	He's had 17 extra years on the planet and he's less mature than you.
	So why would you want to date him?
	Yeah, because in other points he is not like this.
	No, no, no.
	You don't get to slice and dice people.
	I guess maybe that's not the right way if you had a circumcision, right?
	But you don't get to slice and dice people, right?
	So you don't get to say, well, I'm going to date your left hand, but not your right hand.
	I'm going to date your left eye and your right tooth and your left ear.
	It's a whole package, right?
	Yeah, it's the whole package.
	It's the whole package.
	So if he's really immature and aggressive when you're just being open and curious, not accusatory, right?
	You're just like, oh, I'm really curious.
	And he's just like, I'm not going to talk about it.
	You're making it all about you.
	So if he's that volatile, then saying, well, there are parts of him that aren't volatile, right?
	Right.
	Right, I mean, if you go, you get your hand sliced off in some horrible accident, and you bring it in an icebox to the emergency room, do they say, I mean, we don't, your other hand is fine?
	Right, so it's the whole thing.
	They have to treat the whole person, right?
	If you get some tumor, they don't get to say, well, listen, 99% of your body is tumor-free, we're sending you home.
	Oh, wow.
	Right, so it's the whole thing, right?
	You can't just slice and dice him and say, well, he's nice in these situations, but he's nasty and immature and aggressive in these situations.
	He's well-tempered here, but he's ill-tempered here.
	That's not how relationships work.
	You have to take the person as the whole person, not the slice and dice person.
	That's true.
	So if you are genuinely curious and you did nothing wrong, and obviously I wasn't there, I'm just going by your report, right?
	So if you were genuinely curious and you did nothing wrong, Then he's immature and volatile and aggressive, and that's bad for you because if Hans II is aggressive and Hans I was obviously more aggressive, that's not good.
	That's not good.
	And he's breaking up with you a couple of months after you attempted suicide, in part because the relationship went bad, right?
	Yeah.
	So this is very cruel.
	And dangerous, by the way.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, the Hans 1 opened a lot of past ones out of my childhood on purpose.
	So this was very bad.
	And Hans 2?
	Well, he's like, oh, are you really upset with the breakup?
	I'm going to be there for you.
	And then, three months later, he breaks up with you.
	Yeah.
	Like, that's very bad, right?
	That's very, very toxic.
	Yeah.
	He says...
	Oh, do you have abandonment issues?
	We're going to fall in love together, and then I'm going to walk out with barely an explanation.
	I mean, that's really cruel, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so why do you want to be with a guy who's cruel?
	Yeah, that's true.
	I don't know.
	I mean, you can spend the rest of your life proving your asshole parents right, if you want, but it's a terrible way to live.
	They're wrong.
	You weren't undeserving of love as a child.
	But if you believe you're undeserving of love, then you'll just choose these weird, mean guys.
	And, oh, look, I'm right.
	Oh, my parents, they're right about me.
	I'm undeserving of love.
	And the violins and the drama.
	And it's like, well, no, your parents, your mother in particular, was like a thieving criminal witch with a capital B. And she's a terrible person, was a terrible mother, is exploiting and stealing from you, forging your signature.
	Stealing, I mean, to steal medical benefits from a child coming out of a motorcycle crash is about the lowest thing you can do.
	Yeah, and for this we have to say that...
	She has enough money, so it's not like she's living in a...
	Oh, she's starving in a box, right?
	Okay.
	So the bad people have said bad things about you.
	I know a little bit about this, right?
	I know a little bit about this.
	So the bad people have said bad things about you.
	So fuck them.
	Why would you listen?
	They're shitty people.
	They were shitty parents.
	They're shitty family members.
	Well, she's a criminal, and maybe he profited from it, I don't know.
	So, shitty criminal people are telling you you're a bad person.
	Why on earth would you keep listening to them?
	Now I can stop listening to them.
	Well, I think so, but the price of not listening to them is you've got to stop putting your brother down.
	Yeah.
	Because one of the weaknesses why you can feel like you can be insulted and it's true is you insult your four-year-old brother and think that's true.
	That's the weakness.
	That's the hole in your armor.
	Where the bad judgments come in is that it's hard to say, I reject unjust bad judgments against children while having unjust bad judgments against your brother.
	Now, I'm not saying your brother's a perfect guy, obviously.
	I mean, I'm sure there's things that he's done that have been pretty bad and so on.
	But you can't be harsh when he was four.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Now, in this age, we can understand this, but in the past, it was very hard to...
	Well, you said, and boy, if I'd had affection from my mother, things would have been so much better.
	If I'd had affection from Hans, too.
	Sorry.
	John, too.
	He's not German, right?
	So, if my mother had given me hugs and affection, things would have been so much better.
	If Hans, too, had given me hugs and affection, things would have been so much better.
	Okay?
	Like, you understand.
	You've told me that, and I believe you, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so what would it have meant for your four-year-old brother if his older sister had given him hugs and affection?
	Consistently.
	I gave him hugs.
	Consistently.
	Yeah.
	I don't know.
	I can ask him.
	Okay.
	But you need to listen back to how you talk about him.
	Yeah, that's true.
	Because if you're right about him, it's more plausible that your parents are right about you.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	That's true.
	We generally can't have more empathy and compassion than the person close in our life that we have the least empathy and compassion for.
	It's like the chain is only as strong as its weakest link.
	Yeah.
	Nice words.
	Yeah.
	Maybe it's a good idea to really call him and ask him how he...
	See the situation in the past, out of the past, and if something Would have changed anything.
	Right.
	I mean, I think it's always good to have conversations with...
	Like, your brother is the only person who...
	I mean, I don't know if he's beyond hope.
	If he's become a drug addict, he may have moved beyond reason.
	But if possible, he's the only guy...
	He's the only person who can go through all of life with you.
	Right?
	Your parents are going to get old and die.
	And, you know, you...
	Well, as is your boyfriend, who's halfway to your parents' age.
	Actually, no.
	Hang on.
	Oh, my gosh!
	Maybe he's my father.
	Hang on!
	Wait!
	He's the same age as your father was when he knocked up your mom.
	Oh my...
	Okay, I'm going to have to go and apologize to Sigmund Freud's entire graveyard.
	All of it.
	Sorry, I didn't even make that connection.
	Oh, there we go.
	I can call him.
	After our call and say, hi, Daddy.
	Okay, Daddy.
	Okay, Daddy.
	What does Daddy want?
	Oh.
	Did Daddy get out the dick saw for me?
	Anyway, okay.
	So, yeah, that may be something to think about.
	Can we make a genetic test, please?
	Maybe have a question.
	Is there anything more confusing than a submissive German?
	I don't think so.
	Anyway.
	So, okay.
	I mean, so I guess we can sort of wrap things up.
	But so, first of all, I want to say, like, I'm incredibly sorry for what happened to you as a child, my friend.
	I'm very glad you contacted me.
	I'm incredibly sorry.
	You should have received love, care, attention, affection.
	Of course, your parents should have delighted in your company.
	And they should have, when they made mistakes, they should have gone to anger management, they should have gone to therapy, they should have gone to parenting classes.
	I mean, I had things worked out pretty well.
	I'd done a lot of therapy and so on.
	But I still went to parenting classes and read tons of books on parenting before I became a father, because, you know, it's the most important thing you're ever going to do is be a parent.
	And I'm sorry that they didn't do that.
	And I'm glad you had a sanctuary.
	I really am.
	But I'm really sorry about that.
	I'm incredibly sorry, of course, that your mother has been stealing from you.
	Absolutely incomprehensible.
	Stealing from you.
	And criminally forging your signature is just absolutely appalling.
	I'm sorry for all of that.
	I really am.
	I'm very sorry that you stayed with Hans Wan.
	You cannot allow that.
	No, seriously.
	You must exercise self-protection.
	Yeah, of course.
	It's more dangerous than riding a motorcycle in the rain, no helmet, or the snow, on the Autobahn at full throttle.
	You cannot be aggressive.
	Now, that doesn't mean nobody can ever get mad at you, because that happens, but in terms of people being out of control, and certainly verbal abuse or violence, absolute deal-breakers.
	You see that, you're out.
	Yeah.
	Will you promise me that?
	Of course, I promise this.
	I have to.
	Well, you don't have to, but I would feel better if you did.
	Also, if you do feel any suicidality, I absolutely beg on bended knee for you to call a hotline to go to emergency to talk to someone to get help.
	Yeah.
	Will you do that too?
	Of course.
	Okay.
	So, that having been said...
	If you did things right in Germany and Brit boy in his 40s got all petty and aggressive, done and dusted, as the British would say.
	Like, he's out the airlock, he despawns, he goes to the back rooms, he goes to the nether.
	Like, sorry, you can't.
	You've got to stop putting yourself in these kinds of risky situations.
	Because if he's aggressive and you're vulnerable...
	Then he lacks virtue.
	He lacks integrity.
	He lacks care, concern, maybe a conscience.
	I don't know.
	But you can't feel safe with him.
	And if you can't feel safe with him, you can't love him.
	I mean, you can feel needy, you can feel lonely, isolated, and so on.
	But this guy, I have no...
	Particularly because he's 17 years older than you, 17 years older than you, then he should absolutely know that if you ended up Suicidal because of a bad relationship, the last thing he should do is get you involved in another bad relationship.
	That's true, but maybe he's really my biological father.
	Okay, let's not get too freaked out here.
	Let's not get too freaked out.
	The odds are obviously very low.
	I mean, it was Germany, right?
	It was Germany.
	He's in England.
	It's a whole continent away.
	Brexit was still going on.
	No, pre-Brexit.
	All right.
	Anyway, let's not get too DNA-based, because I'm sure that's not the case.
	Yeah.
	No.
	Have you done therapy?
	Are you thinking of doing talk therapy?
	I have therapy, but I'm looking for talking therapy right now.
	So I haven't...
	Yeah, so if you have the voices in your head, I'm obviously no expert in this area, but my sort of rank amateur opinion is that what's called internally...
	Internal family systems therapy can be quite good for inner voices.
	And if you have a punitive inner voice that's there to protect you from your cold...
	Mother, the Fridge Hart German mother cliche, then internal family, Richard Schwartz, I actually interviewed him on the show.
	You can find it at FDR Podcast.
	Just look for internal family systems.
	And he's got a great book.
	I think there's workbooks about it.
	And if you look, you can probably find a therapist who's trained in this and who specializes in this.
	It could be helpful if you've got these aggressive voices or this aggressive voice with regards to your mother.
	I think that would be well worth it.
	Yeah, I think so too.
	So, yeah, I really, really appreciate this and thank you for your time and listen to me.
	You're welcome.
	How are you feeling now that we're closing off the convo?
	How are you feeling?
	It was exhausting, but only because...
	Well, you know, growth is painful, right?
	Yeah, but you did a great job, honestly.
	In a good way, no, in a good way.
	But here, it's very late, and I woke up at 5 a.m.
	today and have two tomorrow.
	So, yeah, I'm a little bit tired.
	And here you are making it all about you again.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	I'm just kidding.
	It's a total joke.
	It's a total joke.
	I appreciate that.
	It's a total joke.
	And of course, the horses are going to be up early too.
	Don't forget to set your alarm.
	So, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Yeah.
	So, I think this helped me a lot.
	So, of course, I need to process this.
	Tomorrow.
	The things you said were right.
	So even if I said at the beginning, no, I don't think so.
	After a while, if I think about this...
	I just wear people down.
	I'm not even right.
	I just wear people down.
	I'm just kidding.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Well, listen, keep me posted and I would give you a big hug if I was there.
	And I'm really sorry that it has to be a virtual hug, but I give you a big hug that obviously your mother should have given you, your father should have given you, and your boyfriend should have given you.
	So I give you a big virtual hug and I look forward to hearing how things are going.
	Thank you.
	A big virtual hug back.
	Beautiful.
	All right, keep me posted.
	Have a great night.
	Go to bed.
	Great night.
	Bye.
	Thank you.
	Bye-bye.
	Hey, how's it going?
	Good.
	How about you?
	It's going well.
	All right.
	Yeah, nice to meet you.
	I'm sure we can have a productive chat.
	I guess we'll do our every 10 years or so catch-up call.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah.
	Do you want to start off just by reading the message, and we'll take it from there?
	Sure.
	Steph, I spoke with you years ago.
	I believe it was 2015, and I fear you'll be very disappointed in how things have turned out.
	Last year, I started to divorce my soon-to-be ex-wife.
	I was trapped for years in a loveless, sexless, and joyless marriage that gave me very little happiness.
	After giving birth to our first child, I moved out of our bedroom and into my daughter's bedroom, and she never came back.
	My eldest is now seven years old, and they still sleep together in the same bed, in the same room, with our second daughter, who's now three.
	Needless to say, I felt very alone and useless, except for when it came time to pay for things.
	I am now retired, and our divorce is nearly wrapped up.
	I've been dating over the past year with a lot of success with women in their 20s.
	I even fell in love with one, although the relationship did not work out.
	I am now in another relatively stable relationship with a 27-year-old, although we've Had some issues, and we're actually not officially together right now.
	It's kind of complicated.
	But every day, I think about the girl that I am admittedly still in love with.
	Normally, I would have been able to move on, but I don't understand why I can't, and why she holds so much power over me.
	The relationship ending has also decreased my ability to pair bond.
	My goal in life is ultimately to remarry and have more children.
	But at the same time, I now find I have an immense amount of power when it comes to these younger women.
	They all pursue me, and it is relatively easy for me to sleep with them or start relationships with them.
	I'm a mess.
	I know it.
	I need help to sort myself out and do the right thing, especially for my kids.
	Right.
	Wow, that's quite a tale.
	How are you feeling about sharing it?
	Yeah, I mean...
	Pretty open person, so it needs to come out.
	All right.
	You kept your hair, didn't you?
	Yeah.
	I know.
	I didn't like losing my hair, but it helps a lot, man.
	It helps a lot, because you can't fake the youth and vitality in a way, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, you can't, unfortunately.
	All right.
	Okay, so what happened, what do you think happened with your wife?
	I'm sorry, just a reminder, I forgot to mention it, but just, yes, they have names and places, but yeah, so what happened with your first wife, you think?
	Okay, so she was just, in my opinion, she was recreating her own childhood.
	You know, her parents are divorced.
	They had two daughters.
	She's got a sister.
	Two girls come along.
	Parents get divorced.
	The story I was always given about her parents was that her dad kind of skipped out and just wasn't interested in being a family man.
	He was interested in being a player.
	But now I have to cast a lot of doubt on that story because I feel as though she definitely pushed me out of the marriage.
	I was nothing more than a utility to her.
	Just a wallet and so on?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	She wasn't nice to me.
	We didn't have any intimacy for years.
	I think we went two years at one point with no sex.
	Wow.
	And what were you like?
	I mean, this is not a criticism of you.
	I'm just curious.
	What do you think you're like to be married to?
	I'm probably an acquired taste.
	Definitely not perfect.
	But I was extremely dedicated.
	I would say in the first few years, I was definitely the problem.
	She stuck by me.
	It was actually listening to you that got us through that, calling into you.
	That was what our original call was about.
	It was her and I together.
	It was about partially me being absolutely horrible to her, like calling her names and stuff like that, shouting.
	And the other part was to do with my parents.
	But as far as me calling her names and being rude, I just stopped doing it.
	But we made a rule that there's no shouting in the household.
	And things got really good for a couple of years.
	We had a great relationship.
	And eventually we had kids, but after the, I mean, even after the first one, I kind of missed the signs, but after the second one, it was like, I was totally not needed.
	So, and I was being good, I was being dedicated, even though there was no sex, and she wasn't even nice to me.
	Do you think it was just like she disliked you from your bad behavior early on, and it was just sort of a long game to get resources?
	There's definitely some resentment that built up.
	But I don't feel like it was from the beginning.
	Well, no, not from the very beginning, but from when she had issues with your behavior.
	Was she just like, fine, you know, I'll be nice to him, I'll get kids, and then I've got him.
	Yeah, then she's got some money.
	Well, you gotta pay, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I think she...
	It's certainly a possibility, yeah.
	Okay.
	I mean, it is strange.
	I mean, of course, I hear about these sexless marriages, and it's a little hard to follow.
	I mean, to me, it's almost like people say, I have a marriage where I don't eat.
	And I don't even eat out.
	Like, I've literally gone two years without eating.
	Like, it's such a basic biological...
	I won't say need, because you can survive without it, of course, but preference, right?
	I mean, it's why we're all here, right?
	It's why we have civilization.
	It's why men build things.
	It's why there's a multi-hundred-billion-dollar-a-year cosmetics industry.
	I mean, it's all around.
	And so, yeah, I just, when people say I have a sexless marriage, it's like I have a, it's like somebody saying I've taken a vow of silence in my marriage and I won't talk to the person.
	It's like, well, then it's not a marriage.
	I don't, it's a cohabitation, it's roommates or whatever it is, but it's not a marriage.
	Marriage is entirely founded upon the regulation of sexual activity.
	And if there's no sexual activity, it's like the entire keystone that the marriage is built around is vanished.
	And I don't And it's strange to me that...
	Well, I assume you just, what, have two people masturbating at the same household.
	It's like, well, we'll get sexual pleasure, but just from our hands, not each other.
	So it's just strange.
	Yeah, I guess so.
	I wouldn't know on her end, but...
	Right, right, right.
	Huh.
	Okay, so how long ago did you separate?
	Um...
	Over, yeah, about a year and a half.
	Okay, got it.
	And how many young women have you slept with since?
	Oh, um...
	Might have to think about it.
	I mean, just roughly.
	Six or seven?
	Bro.
	What are you doing?
	You're in your 40s.
	I know.
	Like, I mean, I get, you know, it's been a while, but...
	So you meet these women, you seduce these women, you sleep with these women, and then what happens?
	Well, I wouldn't exactly put it like that, because it kind of goes both ways.
	There's been a couple that...
	I was interested in having a relationship with, and then it turned out that they weren't.
	They just wanted something physical.
	Oh, so they wanted to use you for your body, but they didn't like you as a person?
	I mean, there were other complications like distance and things like that.
	I mean, I get distance is a challenge, but everybody knows that going in, right?
	So if they knew that distance was a deal-breaker, they wouldn't pursue the relationship at all.
	True.
	So they didn't like you enough to commit, is that right?
	I guess so, yeah.
	And what percentage of the time was it the women dumping you?
	Like dumping me?
	Well, if you said that you wanted to continue, but they didn't want to continue, then they're dumping you, right?
	Yeah, okay.
	Sorry, I don't know if the lingo has changed.
	It's been a while since I've been in the dating market.
	But if you want to continue a relationship, and the other person doesn't want a relationship, isn't that getting dumped?
	It is.
	Okay, so what percentage of the time was it the women dumping you?
	20-25%.
	Okay.
	Alright, so let's say eight and two of the eight were the women dumping you, and of the other six or so, what were the reasons that you dumped them?
	A lot of them just kind of, like, faded out.
	It was like, yeah, like, you try to maintain the relationship and it just, like, it doesn't, there isn't that click.
	Anymore.
	There isn't that same energy.
	It's just kind of expired.
	Like, I know how it sounds.
	I wasn't out to just use anybody.
	I've seriously been trying to find, like, a wife, a partner, a girlfriend.
	Because there were plenty of...
	There was actually probably...
	I probably only slept with half the women that I've gone out with, that I've dated.
	Oh, so you dated, like, 15, 16, and slept with, sort of...
	Yeah, I mean, some of them were just like a couple of dates.
	Okay.
	Some of them lasted like a month.
	And where are you meeting them?
	Through dating apps?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, half of them, like, there were plenty of them that were like, let's do it.
	I'm ready.
	And I'm like, no, let's wait six months.
	Because I honestly, I'm not just out to get something physical.
	I can get that.
	It's not hard.
	Wait, so with the women you slept with, how many times did you go on dates before you slept with them, on average?
	I would say three is the average.
	So three dates, you have sex, and then things fizzle out?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	Do you consider that a productive and wise approach to finding a wife?
	Nope.
	Okay, so then you're not really trying to find a wife.
	I mean, if you're knowingly doing something that doesn't work, then you don't want to do something that works, right?
	Right.
	So that's why I started with a six-month thing.
	Right.
	It was more towards the beginning.
	Right.
	But that's a little tough to be credible, right?
	I mean, if you knew a woman had a habit of having sex after the first couple dates, and then she suddenly imposed a six-month rule on you, what would you think?
	Especially a woman in her 40s.
	Without having sex.
	I'm sorry?
	We would never do it.
	They wanted to do it for the first time, and I would say, let's wait six months.
	I'm not ready.
	And a lot of them were just like, I don't want to wait.
	Right.
	And do you know what that means?
	What?
	They don't like you enough.
	Oh, if there's not sex here, then I'm out.
	Yeah.
	And also, it is kind of precious for a man in his 40s, who's clearly a player, to impose a six-month rule.
	Because everybody knows that's just a made-up thing, and that the last couple of girls probably didn't.
	And of course, they'd ask, if they were wise women, they'd say, oh, you have a six-month rule.
	Huh.
	Well, how many dates have you been on?
	Oh, did you have a six-month rule with all those women?
	And you'd have to tell the truth, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah.
	And if they say, oh, so now suddenly you have a six-month rule in your 40s.
	Right.
	Whereas before, you were jumping into bed almost right away with all the other women.
	I mean, you understand that from a wise woman's perspective, that would seem odd.
	Yeah.
	Definitely.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	They never really asked me about kind of my history.
	Only one of them.
	Only one of them ever asked.
	Wanted to know how many people I've been with and how many dates I've been on.
	The rest of them were just like, not that interested.
	Yeah.
	Or outright said, like, I don't care.
	I don't care about your past.
	Right.
	And that's...
	So you're dating pretty...
	I mean, I hate to be harsh about this, but you're dating unwise women.
	Some of them, yep.
	Okay, so you said one of them asked about your past.
	Mm-hmm.
	Of the 15 women you dated.
	Okay.
	Do you think it's wise for a woman to not inquire, I'm not just saying about the sexual history, but to not inquire about a man's past before she puts herself in an incredibly vulnerable position, such as having him on top of her in the dark?
	It's a very wise thing to ask about.
	Okay.
	So...
	So...
	Thank you.
	Let's see.
	Remind me, if you could, about...
	I mean, I don't mean to get you down on the couch because I'm no therapist, right?
	But just remind me about your relationship with your mother?
	There wasn't a lot of bonding there.
	She was definitely disciplinarian, pretty tough.
	She's like the sweetest person in the world to everybody except for me and my brother.
	I mean, things are better now, and it's actually thanks to listening to you.
	Like, I fixed a lot of things.
	I made them understand a lot of things.
	But growing up, it was not easy.
	So there wasn't a whole lot of love.
	Okay, so not a whole lot of love is an absence, and the absence is very tough to manage because it's neglect, right?
	So...
	What was present that was negative as opposed to what was just absent?
	What was present that was negative?
	The discipline, the shouting, the screaming, some physical violence.
	Is this where you got the name-calling habit from, like she would call you and your brother names?
	No, my dad would call her names sometimes.
	I was only aware of it Happening like once or twice my entire childhood.
	And what names do you remember your father calling your mother?
	Cunt.
	Oh, God.
	Yeah, please don't.
	I mean, I know the temptation is to laugh.
	I know it is, and I sympathize with it, but it's not funny, right?
	I mean, that's one of the worst things.
	It's one of the worst words in existence.
	Yeah, and I used to use it on my ex-wife.
	That was the word.
	Right.
	Are your parents still together?
	Oh yeah.
	Okay.
	50 years.
	So, tell me a bit about the physical violence.
	My mom was just a big believer in spanking and both my parents.
	My dad was more of like, heat of the moment, like get the slipper, clip you across the legs, that sort of thing, and more threats than actual acts of violence.
	But my mom was the one that was more calculating.
	Like, pull your pants down, across the knee, you get a spanking.
	And how often would you get hit as a child?
	You know, I've often thought about that.
	I don't think it was that many times, but the times when it happened, it was very traumatic.
	No one can touch my ass to this day.
	I hate it.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So...
	Your father called your mother names, and did either parent...
	Sorry if we just touched on this.
	Did either parent call you and your brother names?
	Not really.
	No.
	Not that I can think of.
	Okay, so even things like selfish or...
	Oh, yeah.
	No.
	Like in terms of...
	Names doesn't just mean like asshole or something like that, but it's just...
	Names is like a hostile or negative, usually moral category.
	Yeah.
	Selfish.
	That's a good one.
	Okay.
	Anything else that you were characterized by as a kid?
	That was...
	That's the only one I can think of.
	Okay.
	Thoughtless?
	Thoughtless.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And you said that you only heard these terrible names, your father called your mother once or twice, but did they fight a lot or have a lot of conflict?
	No.
	I mean, they had their conflicts, but I've never seen a married couple that was that dedicated to each other.
	What?
	I'm telling you, it's the craziest thing.
	My dad's an incredibly successful guy.
	Good-looking to this day.
	He's in his 70s.
	Still a good-looking guy.
	Full head of hair.
	And my mom was never much of a looker.
	But, you know, she was ruthless in the way she ran the household.
	My dad fell head over heels in love with her at like 24, 25. And they just stuck to each other like glue.
	They were more in love with each other than they ever were with me or my brother.
	Okay, sorry, how long have you listened to what I do?
	Uh, since 2014. So what kind of absolute bullshit are you trying to sell me here?
	I know, I'm telling you.
	Like, holy shit, like, why wouldn't you even reference the fact that, yes, Steph, I know this goes against the grain of everything you've ever talked about.
	I know.
	It doesn't mean that you're wrong and I'm right, but it's just kind of bizarre that you would try and sell this narrative to me.
	That is how they are.
	No, no, that's not bizarre that they're still together.
	It's bizarre that you would talk about head over heels in love and loving each other and so on.
	Okay, do you remember anything about my definition of what love is?
	Involuntary reaction to...
	An involuntary reaction to virtue in another person.
	Yeah, if you're virtuous, right?
	Are either of them highly virtuous?
	Well, my...
	My dad, absolutely.
	I mean, yes, with each other, but...
	No, are either of them highly virtuous?
	Virtue is not a category, right?
	That's like saying, well, someone in the mafia, they're totally loyal to other members of the mafia.
	But, you know, then they prey on the citizens, right?
	So they have that loyalty.
	Virtue is like, no, no, they don't.
	That's just part of the crime gang, right?
	So, are either of them highly virtuous?
	I guess no.
	Well, don't guess.
	I'm not trying to corner you here.
	I'm happy to hear the case about all of the wonderful good and virtue and so on that they brought to the world.
	Yeah, I can tell you.
	As far as their dedication to each other, that's what is first and foremost in my mind.
	There was never any risk of infidelity or anything like that.
	They always supported each other.
	Right, they supported each other in hitting their children.
	Yes.
	Like, Jesus, man, what are you doing?
	I know.
	No, you don't know.
	You don't know.
	Otherwise, you'd have said, Steph, I know this is going to sound surprising, but, you know, you're just trying to sell me this narrative like it ain't no thing.
	No, I mean, they're great with each other, they're great with everybody around them, except for their children.
	That's just where, like, that's where, like, I don't want to, I guess, ruthlessness is the best word I could use.
	That's where that comes in.
	Okay, so you say they're great with each other, but of course your father did say some of the most appallingly vile stuff to your mother, right?
	Yeah, a couple times.
	Well, that you know of.
	That I know of.
	Right, okay.
	So, that's not being great with each other.
	Now, you can say, well, they stuck together, and it's like, well, I mean, sure.
	So?
	I mean, some people are loyal to the cult until their dying day.
	Right?
	And the measure of a soul is how it handles power.
	True.
	So when you say they're great to everyone else, what does that mean?
	That they do a lot of charity work, that they're really benevolent in the community and bring a lot of good things to the world as a whole?
	Just like charming and charismatic and shit like that.
	I wouldn't even put them in.
	I wouldn't say either of those things are true.
	They're kind.
	Yeah, my dad could be charismatic.
	He's a business guy.
	He's great at talking to people.
	It's just they're very...
	Decent people when it comes to being married to each other.
	Okay, you just keep using these words.
	I'm asking for some evidence.
	You know I'm an empiricist, right?
	Okay, so what do they do that makes them great and decent and good in the world?
	Like, what is it that they do that is really virtuous and brings good things to the world?
	So, my dad is the straightest of the straight arrows.
	Um...
	Oh my god, is that another analogy?
	Well, I'll get to it.
	No, I'm asking you to stop trying to get to it and just give me some facts.
	Okay.
	My dad had every opportunity in the world to cheat on my mother, and he never did.
	He had a lot of women throw themselves at him.
	He's a powerful, rich, good-looking guy.
	And he just had no interest.
	And...
	These women were beautiful, my mom wasn't, and he didn't give two shits about these other women.
	And how do you know that, I'm not saying he did cheat, but how could you possibly know for certain that he never did?
	Well, I could never know for certain, but there's a number of famous stories about him, just women saying like, hey, I want to do X, Y, and Z with you, and come over later, and he's just like, he ignores it, he just goes...
	On with this conversation about computers or some meeting or whatever, glosses over what they say.
	Wait, so he's telling these stories?
	Yeah, he's telling these stories.
	So he's telling these stories about how women throw themselves at him and he ignores them.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	But, you know, like my dad won't cheat on his taxes.
	He's such a...
	He don't...
	He's somebody that you can trust.
	He's an honorable man.
	My dad always, always does the right thing.
	Holy crap, man.
	You are mentally captured.
	I know.
	I know.
	No, you don't know because you're not commenting and saying, wow, it's kind of weird that I can't come up with any examples.
	Okay.
	I can't come up with any example.
	I mean, do you feel that dissonance?
	I'm just curious.
	I mean, do you feel that cognitive dissonance that your dad is a straight owl and an honorable man and this and that and the other?
	Can you give me an example?
	Well, he brags about women he doesn't sleep with.
	Jesus, man.
	That's all you got?
	Okay.
	He doesn't cheat on his taxes?
	Well, good.
	I'm glad he doesn't cheat on his taxes, but that's under compulsion.
	Yes.
	True.
	Okay.
	He used to help me in my business.
	He would do my taxes and accounting and stuff like that.
	He had plenty of opportunities to rip people off.
	He didn't.
	Because that's not him.
	He's not going to screw people over for no reason.
	Or at all.
	I've seen him have the power over...
	Okay, but these all have practical considerations.
	Because if he rips people off, he loses his business and he goes to jail.
	No, it was my business and he would have gotten away with it, 100%.
	Okay, so the reason that your father is a paragon of virtue who deserves endless love and loyalty is he didn't rip off his own child.
	When helping with the business.
	Well, no, not me.
	Other people.
	Like, he could have gotten...
	No, no, no.
	Fair.
	No.
	I said, if he ripped people off, he'd lose his business and go to jail.
	And you said, but it was my business, right?
	Well, he could have gotten away with it, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so...
	Then I said, so, your big monument to the virtue of your father...
	Is not that he raised his children well, not that he was an amazing husband, not that he fought evil and promoted virtue even at his own cost and expense, but that he didn't rip off his child.
	I think that's one of the lowest bars I've ever heard of this show.
	So then you say, but there were other people he could have ripped off, but then that goes back into the category if he loses his business and he goes to jail.
	So a quote good, which is, you're not actually talking about a good, you're just talking about not an evil, i.e.
	stealing from his customers under threat of jail, or at the very least getting sued in occupational destruction and reputational destruction and so on.
	So I'm still waiting for an example Of his virtues Okay, it was Okay, let's switch to moms Because I think dad's a dry weld Let's switch to mom, right?
	You said he fell head over heels in love with your mother when he was 24 or she was 24?
	Yeah, they were 24, 25 when they met.
	So he fell head over heels in love with your mother.
	So that must mean that your mother had virtues shared by and admired by your father.
	See, if he's not virtuous, and I'm not saying he's a totally evil guy, right?
	Obviously, it's not.
	I mean, it's a scale, right?
	But if he's not virtuous, then he can't fall in love.
	Okay.
	Because it has to be someone's virtues that you share and admire, right?
	So if your mother has the virtue called honesty, and your father is very honest...
	Right?
	Then they can share those virtues and fall in love with each other.
	If your mother has a dedication to the non-aggression principle and your father shares that dedication to the non-aggression principle, Then they can fall in love based upon that, right?
	If it's reason over force, great, right?
	So if your parents when they were younger both had, they possessed and manifested these virtues, and you know, not perfectly because we're all imperfect, right?
	But if they haven't manifested these principles, they can fall in love with each other because they're basically falling in love with the principles in each other, right?
	You can't just fall in love with flesh.
	You can lust after flesh, but you can't just fall in love with flesh.
	Sure.
	So, you fall in love with virtues in the person.
	And so, if they did not possess these virtues, then they can certainly have a kind of bond.
	Sure, sure.
	I mean, bonding is foundational to, I mean, obviously, almost by definition, pair-bonded species, right?
	I mean, All pair-bonded species bond with each other.
	You know, my daughter, of course, has raised endless amounts of ducks and, you know, they follow us.
	But not because they love us.
	They're just programmed by nature to follow the biggest moving thing in the vicinity.
	So, there's a bond.
	It's not based on virtue.
	I mean, swans bond with each other and mourn the death of the mate and so on, and elephants, right?
	They're not based on virtues.
	That's just survival programming, right?
	So, sure, they have a bond.
	All human beings are capable of bonding, sometimes for the better, often for the worse.
	I mean, people go insane.
	I mean, I grew up in England, man.
	People go insane for football clubs, footy clubs, right?
	People go crazy for football.
	They bond.
	With strange people in shorts.
	I mean, it's the same thing all over.
	People bond with all sports.
	You know, it's retarded, obviously, right?
	So people bond all over the place, but that doesn't mean love.
	And clearly, they both shared a desire for violence against their children.
	Yes.
	So when you say they were good to each other, just not to their kids, or they were virtuous or nice or loving with each other, just not to their kids, that's impossible.
	Because if...
	I mean, you have two daughters, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So if you hired a babysitter, and your babysitter beat one of your daughters with, you said, slippers on the thigh, right?
	That was your dad's weapon of choice?
	Okay, so let's just say here.
	I know beet is a bit inflammatory.
	So let's say you found your babysitter came home, your daughter is crying, and she says, the babysitter hit me repeatedly on my bare legs with a slipper.
	What would you say and do?
	The same to the babysitter.
	Well, you'd be very upset, right?
	Now, if you had a big loyalty...
	To the babysitter, right?
	And you said to the babysitter, well, I'm very glad that you disciplined my daughter.
	Here's $5,000 as a bonus, right?
	Would you be capable of doing that and loving your daughter at the same time?
	No.
	No.
	In other words, your love for your child is what defines that relationship.
	So, can you love someone who harms your child?
	Can you love the babysitter who harms your child?
	No, of course, right?
	So, saying that your parents loved each other, but not their children, is impossible.
	Because, of course, if you love your child, you can't love the person who harms your child, and if you love, quote, if you're attached to the person who harms your child, that's just like a sick, sadistic, semi-criminal bond, in my view.
	Hmm.
	It's like, well, we both have these beat-up playthings we call children.
	Let's take turns.
	It's not love.
	Now, you know all of this because you've listened to my show for over 10 years, right?
	Yes.
	So, that's my question.
	That's why I said, what kind of nonsense are you trying to sell me here?
	And, you know, I'm not saying this with any harshness.
	I'm genuinely curious.
	Well, I mean, I definitely do feel love coming from them now.
	I didn't feel it when I was a kid.
	I know my brother didn't either.
	They saw it as discipline, which is wrong.
	I know that.
	They really didn't know what they were doing.
	That's no excuse.
	They should have known that.
	Sorry, they didn't know what they were doing.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	They were possessed.
	They had a fugue state.
	They had concussions.
	I don't know.
	What do you mean?
	They didn't know what they were doing.
	I mean, they knew that they were hitting you guys.
	Yeah, they knew it.
	Did they do it in public?
	Did they do it in front of people?
	Did they do it with their dinner guests over?
	Did they do it at the mall?
	Or did they only do it in the secrecy of the home?
	Only in the secrecy of the home.
	So they were completely able to suppress their desire to do it, right?
	They weren't possessed.
	And they also knew that it would be really frowned upon out in public.
	Yes.
	Okay, so they knew society would disapprove.
	Okay.
	So they knew society would disapprove, so they waited and did it in secret.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So they knew what they were doing.
	Yes.
	They also knew they'd get in trouble if they did in public.
	Well, I mean, when I was growing up, it was more acceptable.
	I'm not sure what's acceptable.
	I don't think it's acceptable now, or at least it's less acceptable than it was when I was growing up.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	The subject of children and discipline comes up with parents quite a bit.
	So when they had other people over, did they openly talk about hitting you guys?
	Not that I'm aware of.
	Okay.
	So, if it's fine, right?
	If it's fine, then why not talk about it?
	They very well may have.
	You know, this is like the 80s, so certain things were more socially acceptable at the time.
	But they may have.
	I don't know.
	Okay, if you were at a family gathering, and you talked about how painful it was to be hit on the bare leg with a slipper repeatedly, Would everyone say, yeah, that's fine.
	I mean, it's there to hurt you.
	Or would that be considered a negative topic?
	That would be a negative topic.
	Okay, so would your father, who says that this is perfectly good parenting and justified, at least at the time, why would your father have a problem?
	It's sort of like if my daughter, if we're at a family gathering, and she were to say, I didn't like going to the dentist.
	But my parents brought me there anyway, right?
	I wouldn't be upset by that topic.
	Right?
	If my daughter were to say something like, my parents wouldn't let me eat all the candy I wanted when I was five, I would have zero problem with her bringing up that topic in public.
	Right?
	So...
	Why would they have any problem with you bringing up good parenting practices in a family gathering, if they were fine with it?
	Yeah, they wouldn't.
	I mean, they knew it was wrong.
	Right, okay.
	When did you start to feel, you said you didn't feel love from your parents when you were little, but you felt more love You felt some love from your parents when you were older.
	When do you think that tipping point was that you started to feel love from your parents?
	Probably about a year after the last call I had with you.
	So around 2016, 2017. I think starting 2016 for about two years there, I did a lot of work on them.
	They didn't want to go through it, but I forced it on them.
	I forced these conversations with them.
	They were very uncomfortable with it, and they have now accepted it, that they were wrong.
	Okay, so they've accepted that they were wrong...
	They've apologized.
	What restitution have they made?
	Have they gone to anger management, to therapy, to what have they done in response to the wrongs that they did to you and your brother?
	Well, they haven't done anything as far as that, but they're quite apologetic.
	So they just say stuff?
	They say stuff.
	But they don't do anything.
	Well, I can tell that they feel bad about it now.
	Okay.
	What was your request as to what they do?
	Because anyone can say anything, right?
	Whoops, sorry, whoopsie, right?
	So what was your request as to what they do to show the sincerity of their apology?
	Hmm.
	Have a conversation with me.
	Talk to me.
	Understand me.
	Well, it would be something external to just you, because then they're just saying things to you, and they have great power over you as your parents.
	They always will.
	So what would they do independent of you?
	They haven't done anything independent of me.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And this was in your 30s, right?
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So, for the first 30-plus years of your relationship, you felt no love, in fact, some disdain and hostility, from your parents.
	But then in your 30s, after you did a massive amount of work, you felt some love from them.
	Not after I did work on me.
	It was after I forced them to do work on themselves.
	What do you mean by forced?
	I confronted them with a...
	I forced conversations on them.
	I said, I'm not leaving the room until you talk to me about this.
	I went to them repeatedly, probably a dozen times over two years or more.
	I was just like, I want to talk about this.
	I want to talk about it.
	And I used your arguments and everything I've learned listening to your show, and it worked.
	Okay, so at that age, they were in their 50s?
	No, they're in their mid-70s now.
	Okay, so they were in their 60s, right?
	When you encouraged them very strongly to have a conversation with you about these issues, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So they really only discovered significant personal virtues in their 60s, right?
	Okay.
	So, going back 40 years, you say your father madly fell in love with your mother.
	When she was 24. So you're saying that 40 years prior to discovering significant personal virtues, they were able to gain all of the fruits of significant personal virtues by falling in love with each other.
	I mean, that's how it appears to me.
	Sorry, that's how what appears to you?
	I mean, it gives that appearance that they are deeply in love.
	I mean, I can't, I'm not inside their mind, so I don't know what they feel, but Okay, but that's why we have principles, is because we're not mind readers.
	Right.
	It's kind of like the rules got thrown out the window for their children.
	That's why I said they're great with everybody else, they're great with each other, it's just not with their kids.
	And I'm still trying to figure out what you mean by great.
	And I really don't want to go back.
	That's just fog land.
	You just keep giving me these adjectives.
	But the only practical thing is that your father would make humble brag stories about how he gave up on men throwing themselves at him.
	He didn't take it, right?
	That's not exactly virtue.
	That's kind of a brag, right?
	I know it comes off that way, but it was more like a life lesson.
	Because at the time when I heard the story, he was telling me to always do the right thing.
	He was like, otherwise you don't have a leg to stand on.
	And this was like 20 years after the fact that this had happened 15 years after.
	Right, so you were getting lectured on virtue by a guy who didn't seem to know much about virtue.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, when you confronted your parents about, was it about 10 years ago, give or take?
	Eight years ago.
	Eight years ago.
	So, where was that in the arc of your marriage?
	That was just as we were trying for the first child.
	Okay.
	So, did your parents have any concerns about the woman you dated, got engaged to, and were going to marry before you got married?
	No.
	Okay, looking back, were there warning signs that more involved parents might have noticed and raised red flags about?
	Nothing comes to my mind.
	Really?
	No.
	Really?
	There's no red flags at all?
	How long did you know your wife before you got married?
	A year.
	A year, okay.
	So over the course of that year, there were no red flags at all?
	I think I had so many at the time.
	Well, that's one of them that you were messed up and she didn't notice or care.
	She definitely noticed.
	Oh, she did.
	So she saw that there were red flags in you and she married you anyway?
	Yes.
	Okay, so did you feel that it was a wise decision for her to marry you?
	On her behalf?
	Yeah.
	I mean, she got everything she wanted.
	She got two kids and enough money where she's comfortable and never has to work ever again.
	Ah, okay.
	So, yeah.
	So, generally, in general, promiscuity arises out of contempt for and hostility to women.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	And listen, I know we're talking about your ex.
	So, things are volatile, and I get that.
	And, you know, it's very, very hard to be objective about exes.
	But when you say she got everything she wanted, well, she doesn't have love, right?
	She doesn't have a stable, committed partner.
	Now she's a divorcee, right?
	With two kids.
	I'm sorry?
	She doesn't want one.
	She's just like her mother.
	Her mother never dated, never remarried, nothing.
	Oh, okay.
	So when did her parents split up?
	When she was six.
	And, yeah, my daughter was five when she and I split up.
	No, sorry.
	Oh, so, hang on.
	So, your wife's parents split up when she was six, and then you split up with your wife when your eldest was five?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And I called it out a year or two years in advance.
	I said, I bet you we get divorced when she turns five or six.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, she, this being your ex, she grew up.
	Did she mostly live with her mother or her father?
	Or both?
	With her mother and her grandmother.
	So, did she see her father much at all?
	Not really.
	Okay.
	So, that's a red flag, right?
	Why is that a red flag?
	Because she doesn't have a good relationship with her father, so why would she have a good relationship with me?
	Well, it's not just that.
	I mean, I agree with you, and I'm not trying to dismiss what you say and say that's not a good answer.
	It's a great answer.
	But I would say also that she just doesn't have ingrained habits of good relationship practices.
	Yes.
	Right, so, I mean, you grow up with parents, and you see your parents have disagreements, negotiate them, and you just learn the language of a relationship by being around it all the time.
	And it sounds like she was raised half in a bitter coven, right?
	Yeah, it wasn't modeled for her.
	Okay.
	And how old was your wife in her sort of early-mid-twenties when you got married?
	Yeah, I think she was 26 and I was 27. And had she had a history of successful relationships in the past?
	And that doesn't mean, of course, for your life, but, you know, a couple of years, parts, but on good terms and so on.
	Yeah, she had successful relationships.
	I'm sorry, say again?
	Yes, she did.
	They were successful.
	Okay.
	She didn't have a lot of relationships, but I think like two boyfriends.
	Got it.
	So, given that she had not grown up around a successful marriage and she had been abandoned by her father, those are difficult things to overcome, right?
	Absolutely.
	And so, what work did she do to overcome these, you know, very sad, not her fault, obviously, very sad deficiencies?
	Nothing.
	When I started this journey listening to you, you know, I talked to her about it.
	She was receptive.
	I mean, she listened.
	She listened to everything I had to say, all the arguments.
	But she did not join me.
	She did not work on herself at all.
	Okay.
	And that would have been apparent that she hadn't really worked on herself at all, right?
	before you got married I mean I didn't see it I just had so much going on.
	I didn't know what to look for, I guess.
	Okay.
	Looking at her family, if I'd understood that at the time...
	Yes, but you have parents.
	So it's your parents who are supposed to help you out with this stuff and say, okay, son, she didn't grow up in a pair-bonded marriage, so she's going to have to learn a lot.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Yep.
	So, did they talk to you about that?
	Because, you know...
	Not at all.
	They love her to death.
	They love her?
	Oh, yeah.
	They're crazy about her.
	Like, even now?
	Oh, yeah.
	And, I mean, are they aware that she put you through two years of a sexless marriage?
	I've sort of touched on that with my dad.
	I didn't want to go into too much detail, but yeah, no, and there's more to it.
	Like, she was physically abusive at times to me, and, you know, I told them about it, and they're just like, wow, you guys got to deal with it.
	Like, what the hell?
	Where's the loyalty?
	I'm your son.
	Okay, so they knew that she was physically violent to you, and they're still huge fans of her.
	Yes.
	To this day?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	But I thought you told me that you'd work things out with your parents.
	There's still more to be done, I guess.
	Well, they're in their 70s, man.
	I know.
	At some point you lose the ability to be the lead in the ballet.
	Yep.
	But if it was my kid going through that, I'd risk everything.
	I'd do whatever it took to keep my kid safe.
	Even if I'm 70 and she's 40, I'd be in there in a heartbeat.
	I'd do whatever it took.
	I don't get that sense of loyalty and togetherness.
	We were never really a tight family.
	Well, you're still being betrayed, right?
	Yeah, it's a betrayal.
	Okay, and you're okay with that?
	No, I'm not okay with it.
	It sucks.
	Well then, why are people who betray you still welcome in your life?
	It's far from perfect.
	There's a lot to do, but like you say, they're in their 70s.
	It's not going to be reformed, and It sucks not...
	Boy, that's a lot of syllables to say inheritance.
	I don't need it.
	I've got my own money.
	Okay, so if you don't need it, then why are they around?
	Because I feel some love that comes from them, and I need it.
	I feel something.
	Okay, we can go down this road.
	What is the love that you feel from them after they also love the woman who betrayed you and hit you?
	I mean, I can tell they care.
	It's just they have these fucking split loyalties.
	It's like they want to...
	That is the thing I hate, is that my dad plays both sides, especially my dad.
	Both of them do.
	Mm-hmm.
	Like, they play both sides.
	I mean, that's just called hypocrisy, isn't it?
	Yeah, it is.
	And manipulation.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So, if a quality woman comes into your life, and she finds out about your love, devotion, and loyalty to parents who side with a woman who assaulted you, what is she going to think?
	She's going to think I've got too many red flags and this is not a situation she wants to be involved in.
	Okay, so, I mean, you choose your parents over a quality woman.
	I mean, I think that's an odd choice, particularly for a guy in his 40s, to choose mommy and daddy over a good woman.
	But, I mean, if you want to stay in the playpen forever, I guess you can, right?
	No, I don't want that.
	No, you do want that.
	Because that's what you're doing.
	Okay.
	Come on, you know how it goes, right?
	If somebody says, I want to lose weight but keeps gaining weight, then clearly they don't really want to lose weight.
	Right.
	I mean, we judge people by their actions over here, right?
	So if you choose loyalty to your parents over having a virtuous woman in your life, then you are cleaving to the past rather than building a better future.
	I mean, when your ex-wife, did she find out about your childhood at any point before you got married?
	Okay.
	So she knew that your parents had neglected you and hit you and called you pretty nasty names when you were a kid, right?
	Well, it actually took your call, a call with you, for her to understand that.
	Well, no, but hang on.
	Sorry, I mean, maybe I mistook what you said.
	I apologize if I did.
	But I thought you said that she heard about your childhood before you got married.
	She heard about it, but it did not compute for her until she spoke with you.
	And you were the one that was able to hammer it home for her.
	Okay.
	And it really did make a difference.
	It changed things.
	But she knew that you had been hit and neglected as a child?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And...
	Although she knew that you had been hit and neglected as a child, she had no problem with your parents.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so when you say there were no red flags, I mean, that's a huge red flag.
	Oh, I love your parents who hit and neglected you, called you terrible names, traumatized you.
	They're wonderful.
	I mean, you can understand that's a huge red flag, right?
	Yes, it is.
	Okay.
	So, when I asked if there were any red flags, what you meant to say was nothing I saw at the time, but looking back, there were, right?
	Or do you still think that there weren't?
	No, you're correct.
	Sorry, I'm not sure which it is.
	I didn't see it at the time, but now, looking back, I see it.
	And when you say now, looking back, do you mean since I said this, or...
	In general?
	No.
	In general.
	Okay, so you knew that there were red flags.
	So when I asked you were there any red flags, you thought I meant...
	Maybe I can't remember the exact conversation, so you could be totally in the right.
	But when I said...
	excuse me one sec my apologies little frog in the throat So, when I was asking were there any red flags, you interpreted that, and maybe I was saying that, I can't remember, as were there any red flags that you saw at the time, right?
	But are you saying that you knew all of the red flags that we're talking about now?
	You know all about those and have known about those for years.
	I've known about them.
	I did not apply them.
	As I should have.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	Sorry to be against if you're making things clear and I'm not following, but go ahead.
	No, it's probably me making things clear.
	I have the knowledge, it's just I don't apply it to my real life.
	I guess I missed it.
	I don't know.
	Okay, because normally, and I'm not criticizing you at all, right?
	But I think if people are aware of certain things, right?
	So if someone were to say to me, I don't know, about some relationship I had in the past, what were the red flags?
	Right?
	If I were to say, there weren't any, right?
	That would be tough to interpret, right?
	Yeah.
	Whereas if I were to say...
	Oh, there were these red flags and these red flags.
	I chose to overlook them.
	I didn't even see them because the rest of my relationships were so corrupt and everybody was cheering me on.
	Right?
	So, in terms of sort of growth and self-knowledge, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	If you've learned Japanese in your 40s and I say, did you speak Japanese in your 30s?
	And you say, no.
	Normally, you would say, but I've learned it in my 40s.
	Right.
	And I'm saying this not to nag you, but rather that a quality woman will perceive dissociation or evasiveness.
	Okay, yeah.
	So when a quality woman says, were there any red flags, and you say, nope, not one, then that's very alarming to her.
	Well...
	These are things that I missed.
	These are things that I missed.
	I think you summarized it pretty nicely a second ago.
	Everything was so corrupt that I missed it.
	Well, no, and I sympathize with that.
	And please, I'm not trying to criticize you.
	I'm trying to get you to a better place, right?
	Okay, so this is why you're drawn to women who don't ask you about your past.
	Okay.
	or rather, the price of being in a relationship with your parents in their 70s is that you can't date women who will ask you about your past.
	Ask you about your past will lead to your ex, will lead to your parents, will lead to why they're still in your life, will lead to your loyalties to people who...
	Hit you and insulted you and have never really made any amends, even though you say you had these conversations and they're like, yeah, okay.
	That's just a negotiation.
	Your father's a businessman.
	It's just a negotiation.
	It's not a commitment to virtue.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so let's get to the, if that's alright, I mean, I don't want to yank topics on you if you wanted to talk more about this, but I do want to get to the woman I talked with two days ago.
	Yeah.
	Okay, can you tell me a little bit about all that?
	So we met a few months ago and started dating.
	She's a lot younger than me.
	She seemed...
	Really great, but she has a lot of the same problems that I do.
	Actually, I think that's one of the things we kind of bonded over.
	I mean, I could have kept going.
	I could have dated her and then met other women and kept going.
	I had options, but I didn't want that.
	I don't want that.
	I want a relationship.
	I want stability.
	I thought she was great.
	I'm sorry, you want stability?
	I want stability.
	What are you talking about?
	I know.
	No, you don't know.
	Why do you keep saying these things to me?
	It's like you're waving this red flag in front of me and we have to waste all of this time because you keep spewing this nonsense at me.
	Okay.
	Well, I date a traumatized, unstable woman because I want stability.
	What the fuck are you talking about?
	I... Like, why do you say these things to me?
	With, like, no...
	Well, I know this sounds kind of odd, but...
	I want stability!
	I can't get my protein!
	Sorry, that's a meme.
	So, like, please help me understand.
	Like, what level of dissociation are we talking about here?
	I mean, she had a very tough childhood, right?
	I'm sure you're aware of that, right?
	And she was suicidal a couple of months before you met her, right?
	Yeah.
	But you just want stability.
	Like, holy shit.
	Holy shitballs, bro.
	Like, what the hell are you trying to do to my brain here?
	I know.
	Well, you just say shit like your parents say shit.
	Oh, we're sorry.
	Okay.
	But we still love your ex who assaulted you.
	And that's why I know I can't work with her.
	Sorry, work with him?
	No.
	The woman you talked to two days ago.
	Things can't work between me and her.
	We're not together now.
	She actually broke up with me, and I was just like, alright, see ya.
	Sorry, when did she break up with you?
	It was about two weeks ago.
	Okay, I wasn't sure if it was since I talked with her.
	So, she broke up with you, and you're like, yeah, okay, bye.
	You're as heartless as that.
	It was a protest, like her being dramatic and just saying, like, it was her trying to get my attention.
	And I don't play these games.
	I don't like that kind of bullshit.
	So I just said, all right, I'm done.
	Fine.
	You want to break up?
	I'm out.
	But I care what happens to her.
	She's got a lot of problems.
	I don't want her to...
	Well, I mean, you did just kind of insult her, right?
	Repeatedly.
	Well, I'm sorry, but she's got a lot of problems.
	Okay, but if somebody has problems, why would you insult her?
	I mean, if somebody has a learning disability, do we just call them stupid?
	Nope.
	Okay.
	But you kind of did, right?
	So you say she has a lot of problems and you care about her, but you insulted her by saying she's just playing games, she just wants my attention, she's just being dramatic, so you put her in this manipulative category while at the same time saying she has a lot of problems.
	You're right.
	I see what you're saying.
	So why did you date a woman who had recently gone through a very serious mental health crisis?
	Mm-hmm.
	Who was 17 years younger?
	Well, and probably still is, if I get my math right.
	27, I'm 41. No, I get it.
	Oh, sorry, 14 years.
	Did I get that right?
	Yeah.
	I think I got the math wrong on the last one.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, she's late puberty, younger than you.
	And why would you date a woman who had recently been released from a mental health clinic and who'd been suicidal?
	Because you say you're looking for stability, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	She's pretty.
	We bonded.
	We have similar interests.
	She has a good heart, and I felt really sorry for her.
	And we get along.
	We get along until we don't.
	And how long did you date her before you slept together?
	Oh, a couple of weeks.
	Right.
	And what was your perspective on what happened in her country?
	Right.
	Thank you.
	When she had to get to work and you had to go to the bathroom?
	When she had to go to work and I had to go to the bathroom, when was this?
	So this was a story that she was saying that she, you let her sleep in?
	And she had to get to work?
	Mm-hmm.
	And then you had to go to the bathroom.
	If I remember it rightly, it could have been something else, but you were delaying her, and there was a lot of tension about that.
	Okay.
	Well, I can correct the record on that.
	Well, you can give me your perspective.
	I'm afraid you don't have massive credibility with me after all of this stuff you've been trying to sell me, but I will certainly hear.
	Okay.
	Well, she sets her alarm for 5 o'clock in the morning and sleeps through it.
	This is something that happens all the time.
	And because I was there, I was somebody that was easy to blame.
	Yeah, I had to go to the bathroom.
	I spent maybe 10 minutes in there.
	Just getting ready.
	And apparently that's what made her two hours late for work.
	So she's misrepresented.
	Which she does to me.
	She won't be honest about what happens there.
	She doesn't accept responsibility.
	It's a recurring theme with her.
	Okay.
	So she's a liar.
	Okay.
	So why would you want to date a liar?
	And obviously, I'm accepting what you say at face value, right?
	I wasn't there, right?
	So that's fine.
	So if she lies and blames you and doesn't take responsibility and so on, right?
	Why would you date her?
	Well, this didn't come out till...
	The very last quarter.
	Oh, God.
	Are you still really trying to pull this crap at me?
	I just didn't know.
	I didn't know that the recently suicidal mental clinic person might have problems.
	How could I know?
	I know she's got problems, but I didn't see that she was a liar.
	She didn't lie to me previously, but...
	Just the last portion of the relationship, she starts doing this, like blaming me for things.
	I'm just like, what are you talking about?
	It had nothing to do with me.
	Like making her late, that's the one that comes to my mind, first and foremost.
	So she woke up two hours late and blamed you for needing 10 minutes in the bathroom, is that right?
	Correct.
	And what did she say to you about, she said, I'm late because you went to the bathroom?
	And when you said that you woke up two hours late, like she woke up at seven after she missed her alarm at five?
	Correct.
	So when you said that the two hours sleep-in is slightly more significant than me spending ten minutes in the washroom, and what did she say to that?
	I can't remember exactly what she said, but she just skipped over that part, and she continued with, you made me late.
	You took too long in the bathroom.
	It's just like a circular conversation.
	Now, why do you think she did that?
	She accepts no responsibility for herself.
	Without insulting her, why do you think she would blame you for her mistake?
	It was easier.
	That's another insult.
	Now you're just kind of calling her lazy.
	Without insulting her, Why do you think she might blame you for her mistake?
	I don't know.
	Well, you know about her past, right?
	A good portion of it, yeah.
	Okay.
	A lot of it.
	What habits or what difficulties did she experience as a child that might make her panic when she's in the wrong and try and find somebody else to blame?
	Well, I haven't listened to the call, and I'm not familiar with that.
	No, but you know something of their history, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, her mother would blame her, would be my guess.
	Yeah, so if a child gets attacked for mistakes, then what happens is...
	The alter ego of the hypocritical parent is activated when the child makes a mistake and it's overwhelming.
	And then the child needs to find a scapegoat because otherwise...
	Oh, I guess the adult in this case needs to find a scapegoat, otherwise the self-attack is unbearable.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	No, you're very distant from this emotionally.
	No, I already knew it.
	I mean, she's trying to preserve herself.
	It's too painful for her to do anything else.
	So she tries to shift blame onto someone else.
	Well, sure.
	And that's just a terrible habit that is developed when somebody is hyper-attacked.
	I mean, just for, you know, category, my daughter has no problem with bidding fault because she's never attacked for it.
	Right.
	Oh, my bad.
	You know, so sorry, right?
	And deals with it.
	Yeah, mine too.
	Okay.
	So when you are witnessing the effects of persistent trauma in a much younger person, why would you shift to insulting her?
	You're right.
	I see it the wrong way.
	I blame her.
	No, listen, you can hold her accountable.
	I mean, she's almost 10 years an adult, right?
	But I'm curious about the empathy thing.
	So if somebody's panicking and blaming you, I guess you could take it personally and insult her back or something like that, right?
	Or you can say, which is curiosity, tell me more about what you're feeling or, you know, tell me more about what you're thinking or that kind of stuff, right?
	Right.
	You know, tell me more.
	Yeah.
	I mean, RTR 101, just basic curiosity, right?
	Like, why would somebody be behaving?
	Because that's the choice.
	We can seek to understand or we can just condemn, right?
	And when we're in...
	I'm not talking parent-child, right?
	But when we're in sort of roughly horizontal relationships, if you're in a relationship, hey, guess what?
	People are going to do things that annoy you.
	People are going to be immature.
	Guess what?
	You're going to do things that annoy them, and you're going to be immature.
	And you knew that she'd had a very bad childhood, and...
	This woman, who'd recently been suicidal, was behaving in a triggered way, and you insulted and rejected her.
	I mean, I argued against what she was saying.
	No, no, that's just defensive.
	On my behalf or hers?
	No, on your behalf.
	Okay.
	You're the one who made me late.
	Hey, you gawk up two hours late, I was only ten minutes.
	Yeah, but that ten minutes makes a big difference.
	You guys are just arguing at surface level bullshit.
	You're arguing about the clock, not the source.
	Thanks.
	Right.
	And you got really cold to her, and really critical of her, and you put her down.
	Okay, yeah.
	I mean, that's fair, right?
	I'm not trying to throw you under the bus, but I mean, if you're describing it weeks later in this contemptuous, condemning fashion, right?
	Just wanted attention, you know, she's just manipulative, you know, she was just, you know, blaming me and she won't take responsibility.
	Like, if you have this contemptuous, condemning attitude weeks after the conflict, I'm sure you had it then too, right?
	Definitely, yeah.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So this woman who'd experienced a lot of rejection and condemnation as a child then also got it from you a couple of months after she'd been suicidal.
	What the fuck are you doing?
	Yeah.
	Like seriously, you're dicing with people's lives a little bit here.
	Yeah.
	And that's what I need to understand.
	And that's why I called you.
	I know, and I appreciate you calling me.
	And, you know, to be clear, I'm not saying she behaved well at all.
	Oh, I know.
	I know you wouldn't.
	But you chose to sleep with her and to be in a relationship with her while knowing all about her mental health crises in the recent past.
	So, why?
	Because a lot of it's the same stuff I went through.
	Well, then you should empathize with it!
	I do.
	No, you don't.
	You blame her.
	Why did I call you then?
	I feel horrible.
	I don't know, but don't tell me that you had all of this trauma in common, because then if you had this trauma in common, you wouldn't have scorn and contempt for her when she was triggered by her trauma.
	Right.
	I guess I just didn't say it like that, which you're right.
	Okay, so let's drop the stuff in common.
	Okay.
	Right?
	Okay.
	Because the stuff in common should be additional empathy, right?
	So let's say that you had both been alcoholics, and you had both quit alcohol, and it was really tough, right?
	And you went to rehab, and you had to confront family issues, and you went to the court, you did therapy, and you spent, you know, two years dealing with your addiction, right?
	Let's say that you had that in common, right?
	Right.
	Then when she expressed a desire to have a drink...
	If you shared that experience and that process in common, then when she expressed a desire to have a drink, what would you say?
	Don't do it.
	It's not good for you.
	Okay.
	That's such surface-level thinking.
	I can't even tell you what...
	I can't even...
	I don't even have anything to say to that.
	What would you say?
	Because you'd both gone through this agonizing experience, and you yourself would still have a desire for a drink at a time, right?
	Sure, probably.
	So what would you say when she expressed a desire to have a drink?
	Don't do it, because you're just falling into the lifestyle that you used to be in, and it'll be horrible.
	You've accomplished so much.
	Don't go back.
	Okay, bro, you have to stop dating, like right now.
	You have to stop dating, because you don't get empathy yet.
	Rather than giving her a lecture, which she already knows, you would say, this is Empathy 101, and I need to find this part of you.
	You would say, what happened that upset you?
	Oh, you shouldn't drink.
	It's bad for you.
	She just spent two years quitting alcohol.
	She knows it's bad.
	Giving her a lecture is pompous.
	It's, well, we understand that alcohol is kind of a self-medication for being traumatized.
	So what is it that upset you?
	And I certainly understand that desire.
	Let's dig in and see what's going on in you.
	As opposed to, well, you know, drinking is bad for you.
	You shouldn't drink.
	You're just going down that same old...
	She knows all that.
	But empathy is trying to figure out why people are doing, not just sitting back in your high chair and throwing condemnations and moral superiority at them.
	Right.
	I mean, that's part of the larger conversation.
	I mean, the...
	Yeah, let's try it again.
	Let's try it again.
	Okay.
	Let's try it again.
	She says, I'd kill for a drink right now.
	You say?
	Why do you feel like that?
	What's going on?
	Why?
	Yeah, did something happen to upset you and help me understand what's going on for you, right?
	Okay, so your girlfriend says, you made me late.
	And you've got, how long was the drive out to her work?
	45 minutes.
	Okay, so I get it's a little rushed, right?
	Let's say you're driving, right?
	Because you shouldn't have these conversations with someone who's driving, right?
	You don't want to be like Woody Allen in that movie.
	Anyway, it doesn't matter.
	Okay, so she says, I'm going to be so late.
	You made me late, right?
	Why do you feel that way?
	Well, no, that's too blank, right?
	Okay.
	What's upsetting you?
	What's happened?
	What's triggering you?
	Okay, but that's saying you don't know her at all.
	Because you have some idea, right?
	Yeah, I can take a pretty good guess.
	Okay, so what would you say based upon the knowledge that you have of her?
	What happened in your past that's causing you...
	Again, I'm not saying you shouldn't say that, but that's kind of blank.
	I'm struggling to find more perfect words.
	No, and listen, what I'm asking is quite sophisticated, but you're a smart guy, and you've been into philosophy and self-knowledge for a decade plus.
	So, this is not intro, right?
	The intro is, don't take it personally and don't defend yourself like it's a real complaint.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Nope, I'm there with you.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	um, I don't know either, because I don't know, I mean, all of the details, but it would be something like, listen, I'm really, really sorry that you're upset.
	I get this is nerve-wracking for you.
	I sympathize, right?
	And I'm not trying to say that my 10 minutes wasn't a factor, because it was.
	It was a factor.
	And it also might have been that you felt bullied by her, And then you took a little longer in the bathroom to show your independence.
	I'm not saying that did happen, right?
	But I'm just saying that's a possibility.
	It didn't, but I would tell you if it did.
	Okay.
	So, when you are desperate to get out of the door, let's say you've got a flight to catch, and somebody's taking forever in the bathroom, and ten minutes is a long time.
	To get dressed?
	No, I thought you were ten minutes in the bathroom.
	I was just getting dressed.
	In the bathroom?
	I was rushing.
	I was going as fast as I could.
	Sorry, what was the thing about the bathroom?
	Did I completely misremember that?
	I mean, I was in the bathroom brushing my teeth and stuff like that.
	Oh, I see.
	Okay, so 10 minutes to, you know, poop and pee and brush your teeth.
	I'm sorry?
	It's 10 minutes to get out of the house.
	That's how long.
	Oh, okay.
	So, sorry.
	My apologies.
	Okay, so that's pretty fast.
	Okay.
	So, the 10 minutes is a factor.
	Okay.
	And you, of course, you slept through her alarm as well, right?
	Oh, hello?
	Yep, sorry, they tried to call me.
	Oh, no, no problem.
	Yeah, like I said, it wasn't me sitting on the toilet for 10 minutes twiddling my thumbs.
	Okay, got it.
	But you also, you slept through her alarm as well, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, what time did you go to bed the night before?
	It was fairly late.
	I would say 10 or 11. Okay, and what time did you get to sleep?
	Me?
	Oh no, just her, roughly.
	She's got issues sleeping, so I couldn't tell you.
	Probably not for a while.
	Okay, so you went to bed way too late.
	Absolutely.
	Okay, so you're a middle-aged man.
	You can count backwards from 5 a.m., right?
	Yep.
	So why are you going to bed so late?
	That's what time she actually gets off.
	I think she gets off work at like 6, and then it's home by 7. She wanted to go shopping.
	She wanted to go grocery store.
	So by the time we got back, it was just like, It's basically time to eat and then go to sleep.
	So, I wasn't dictating the schedule.
	Well, no, nobody's saying dictating, but if somebody's got to get up at 5, then they should be in bed, or they should be asleep, not really later than 10, right?
	Absolutely.
	You sound like me.
	That's what I said.
	But...
	She's definitely running the show when...
	We're in her part of the world.
	Okay, so she just wouldn't go to bed earlier.
	Correct.
	I've said many times, like, hey, we need to be asleep by probably 10 o'clock is what I said, and then she's just not interested or wants to do other things.
	She took about two hours in a store where I fell asleep.
	Sorry, you fell asleep in the store?
	I said we should be at home.
	Yeah, I sat on the couch.
	I was done.
	It's a long day.
	Okay, so you seem to be back towards criticizing her.
	I know.
	So why would she have this amount of dysregulation of her schedule to the point where she's got to get up early, but she goes to bed late?
	I don't know.
	Sure you do.
	I mean, did she grow up in a house of somewhat chaos and unpredictability?
	Absolutely, yeah.
	Right, so she didn't have a chance to manage her schedule or learn how to manage her schedule when she was young.
	And she also, I mean, obviously it's a compliment to you that she doesn't want to go to bed too early, right?
	Because she wants to spend time with you.
	Or I guess not if you're passed out of the couch, right?
	Yeah.
	So, she's used to just sort of snatching whatever pleasure she can, because she grew up in an unhappy household.
	And so, again, it's just like, rather than just blaming her, trying to have an understanding of her.
	Because we can blame people, but not if we just...
	If we claim to care about someone, this is...
	You have this thing, right, where...
	You can say that you really care about her, and then you can hold her in contempt and blame her and condemn her.
	So, what the hell?
	I mean, if you care about someone, you have to give up condemnation.
	It can't anywhere be in your category of, yeah, I can do that.
	If you care about someone, then you seek to understand them, No.
	And you cannot just blame them.
	You cannot hold them in contempt.
	So I'm trying to figure out why you have these two things in your head, that you care about her, and you sleep with her, and you travel to her country, and you spend time with her, and then you condemn her.
	Yeah.
	Well, I can tell you, because that's exactly what my dad does.
	Go on.
	We may have struck a line.
	We may have struck a good oar here, so go ahead.
	Yeah, no, I've always known this about my dad, and about myself, and just my dad's very critical, he's very tough on people, there's a lack.
	It's not that he doesn't care, it's just he doesn't know how to give guidance properly.
	He doesn't know how to help people.
	Doesn't ask the right questions, doesn't empathize.
	He does what I do.
	I'm critical.
	I'm like, because when I talk to her and I say, hey, you should be in bed at 10 o'clock.
	This is why you're late.
	This is why you're tired.
	This is why you're having these problems.
	These are the things I say to myself.
	I'm very critical of myself.
	I know I had a good sleep schedule.
	My mom enforced this.
	I went to bed very early and woke up early.
	Still do it.
	Never had a problem with this.
	I'm asleep in five minutes.
	She's all over the map with this.
	And when I criticize her, it's like what I would say to myself.
	Like, of course you're tired.
	You fucking did the wrong thing.
	So that's where the condemnation comes from.
	Okay.
	So, what's really interesting to me is that you have a lot of, quote, kindness and understanding towards your father who beat you, but not towards your girlfriend.
	Your father, well, you know, he just doesn't know this and he tries, but he just doesn't have the language and, like, you're very, very conciliatory towards your father.
	Mm-hmm.
	But you completely condemn your 27-year-old recently out of the mental hospital girlfriend.
	I mean, that's completely fucked up, just to be honest.
	No, I don't think you get it.
	No, I do.
	Because you just give me this, yep, yep, yep, yep.
	No, because if you got it, like, I get that you get it.
	There's a change in the voice.
	There's a change in the vocal intonation.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I'm...
	I try to stay collected, but yeah, I'm breaking.
	I'm not trying to break you, I'm just like, how does your father who beat you get off with all of this understanding, but your recently suicidal girlfriend is just contempt and condemnation?
	You know, I... The person you never chose to have in your life gets nothing but forgiveness for violence against you as a child.
	But the person you actively pursued and chose to have in your life gets condemnation.
	Or maybe you choose younger women so you can behave like your dad, because you justify.
	Whatever we justify, we repeat, right?
	And you justify your father's actions so you provide excuses.
	So maybe that's why you choose.
	Is it generally, you said it's younger women that you're dating, right?
	Yeah, I mean, I want more kids, so...
	A woman my own age isn't going to be able to do that.
	Well, but you're not dating women with the intent to have kids.
	Otherwise, you wouldn't have dated 15, slept with 8, and have no relationships.
	No, I've had relationships.
	I've had three.
	In 18 months?
	In 18 months, yeah.
	Okay, we can do that if you want.
	And how long have these relationships last?
	Usually, like, two months.
	Okay, that's not a relationship.
	Okay, it's dating.
	If I said I had a job for two months, would you call that a real job or a career or anything?
	Not a career.
	Right.
	But it's not even really...
	I would leave that off my resume, frankly.
	Okay.
	I mean, would you hire a guy?
	Who had had three jobs of two months in the last 18 months and they'd been fired or quit after two months, three times in the last 18 months.
	Would you hire someone like that?
	Right.
	So they're not jobs.
	They're actually liabilities.
	Because what you're saying at the age of 41 is I'm such a shitty choice of women that I can't choose a woman who'll put up with me or I'll put up with for more than two months at a time.
	And I go into these thinking they might be for a lifetime and I'm lucky to get eight weeks.
	Yeah Yeah Yeah.
	All three of them, they broke up with me as well.
	Right.
	And why do you think they broke up with you?
	Or what did they say?
	The first one was just like, I feel nothing for you.
	Right.
	It's like, I feel nothing for you.
	That's it.
	Like, there was definitely missing any real feelings there on her behalf.
	I had some, but, you know, I was...
	I was upset when that ended.
	And the second one, I'm still upset about.
	And again, she broke up with me, but it was a complete misunderstanding.
	She thought I was cheating on her, which I was not.
	No, that's not a misunderstanding.
	That's a lack of trust.
	Oh yeah.
	Everything in communication has the potential of misunderstanding.
	So it's not misunderstanding to break up relationships.
	It's that she didn't hear your side, she didn't hear the evidence, she just lacked trust, right?
	Correct.
	She had major trust issues.
	Alright, and how long into the relationship of two or three months did you find out that she had major trust issues?
	Um...
	I mean, I realized she'd been cheated on by...
	She'd had three other boyfriends.
	They'd all cheated on her after she'd had these long relationships.
	And then I didn't really understand it until the last few weeks.
	I'm like, wow, this person is seriously worried and just paranoid that I'm going to do something terrible to her.
	Well, I mean, it almost becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy at that point, right?
	Because she hadn't gone to therapy to figure out why.
	Did you ever ask her why do you think you choose guys who cheat on you?
	No, I wish I had.
	Well, she probably would have got really angry.
	Yeah.
	Because that's how you, I mean, you hold people accountable for their life choices, with empathy and with curiosity, right?
	To find out if they can accept responsibility.
	Because earlier you were saying, like your recent girlfriend, she just wouldn't accept any responsibility.
	Okay.
	So, but also by defending and working at the surface level facts, you weren't showing her any empathy.
	And you guys were playing a hot potato of who gets blamed, right?
	Right.
	But, you know, there's a much deeper question about why you sleep through an alarm.
	The deeper question is, do you want this job?
	Is it healthy for you?
	Is it good for you?
	Are the owners bad?
	Like, why don't you want to go to work?
	Right?
	And those are interesting questions, right?
	She has, what, two jobs?
	Three jobs?
	Just the one I'm aware of.
	Sorry, I thought you said she comes home from work at six or seven.
	Yeah.
	So she's supposed to get there at 6 in the morning and she works 12 hours?
	Yeah, it's a pretty serious job.
	And how many days a week does she work?
	Currently she's doing 6, sometimes 7 days a week.
	12 hours a day?
	Yep.
	Including drive time and all that.
	Yeah, well that counts, right?
	Yep.
	Okay, so she's kind of like a workaholic then, right?
	She's very dedicated to what she's doing because she cares about it.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I'm trying not to go into too much detail.
	It resonates.
	No, that's fine.
	That's fine.
	But what I'm saying is she's working 70 to 80 hours a week, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So why would you want to date someone who's that unavailable?
	So she did not have this job at first.
	When I met her, she was unemployed.
	And I go to work with her.
	And because of our time, there's a time difference between the two of us.
	It actually works out okay.
	Sorry, yeah, you drove to work with her, right?
	Yep.
	Sorry, what do you do all day?
	I help her.
	I mean, can I say what she does?
	I think it's...
	Do I have this right?
	A horse thing?
	No, I probably have that wrong.
	Yeah, no, you're right.
	Horses.
	Okay, so hang on.
	So you go to work, you both work at the same place?
	No, I'm retired.
	I was just there with her and I went to work with her just to support her and now and again she's like, hey, can you throw some hay to this horse or walk this horse with me?
	We're going to go to the other building and I hang out with her and the owner doesn't care.
	I have experience with horses too, so he didn't mind.
	Right, okay.
	Interesting.
	But then you have to go home, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so when you go home, she's unavailable for 70-80 hours a week, and then she's tired, right?
	Well, with the time change, by the time she's getting done with, she'll be getting done with work now.
	So, I'm retired.
	I don't go to work.
	And the schedule works out pretty nice.
	So, we have plenty of time to talk.
	Okay.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Okay.
	I mean, it's kind of tough to build a relationship with somebody who's working that hard, right?
	It's fairly recent.
	It's only within the past month that she's had this job.
	But it's going forward.
	Yeah.
	But, yeah.
	I'm not sure if she's going to stay with it.
	Well, I guess it's kind of like it now, right?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And so were you an entrepreneur or a crypto guy or like how you retired at 40 or early 40s?
	Yeah, 38 I retired.
	Crypto mostly, but I had a business and that's what I used to put money into crypto with.
	Okay, and what's your plan going forward for the next 40-50 years?
	I would definitely like to meet a quality woman and have more kids and be a stay-at-home dad.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, what do you most want to get out of our...
	And I appreciate all of this information and great job.
	Sorry, we didn't get to the last girl.
	So, first girl was, she felt nothing for you.
	Second girl was, I think you cheated on me.
	And what's the story with girl number three?
	Or is this girl number three?
	This is girl number three.
	This is girl number three.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	So, how emotionally available and vulnerable would you say that you are in a relationship?
	it.
	Thank you.
	When I'm in a relationship, I'm pretty open.
	Yeah, very.
	Okay.
	How emotionally available do you think that you have been in this conversation?
	Not hardly at all.
	I'm definitely trying to protect myself.
	Okay.
	Why?
	Do you think I'm going to be mean to you?
	I mean, maybe.
	I'm not saying that that's crazy, right?
	I mean, I could be mean at times, but do you think that you're concerned?
	What is your concern?
	Oh, there's a lot of pressure here, and I know a lot of other people are going to hear this.
	Yeah, but you're a rich guy.
	You could have opted for a private call, so what...
	Not that you have to be a rich guy.
	It's not that expensive, but...
	What is your concern here?
	It's helping other people.
	It's better that it's public.
	Okay, so if you want to help other people, do you think that being emotionally detached from the conversation is helpful to them?
	You know, I'm an icy guy.
	Fine.
	Yeah, I get that a lot.
	I'm sorry, you're a what?
	Icy.
	I'm closed off.
	So you just jumped out of the conversation here, right?
	Like, I'm trying to understand something.
	You say, well, I'm here in this conversation to help people, right?
	And then I say, is being emotionally disconnected from the conversation very helpful to people, right?
	And then you say, oh, fine, I'm just an icy guy.
	Like, you just jump out of the conversation, right?
	Yeah, you're right.
	I'm often accused of that, but you're right.
	Being emotionally unavailable is not good.
	It's not helping people.
	I need to be as open as possible.
	I'm really trying.
	Okay.
	um At what point of this conversation did you have, I mean, did you have feelings that you suppressed or you didn't have feelings over the course of this conversation?
	Because, I mean, we're talking about some pretty deep stuff, right?
	The whole time.
	I mean, most of this conversation, I'm trying to keep it together.
	But why?
	I mean, this is digging deep.
	You're into my soul here.
	No, but keeping it together just means lying, doesn't it?
	Well, I don't think it's constructive for the conversation if I break down crying or flip out.
	Sorry, you don't think it's constructive for the conversation if you're honest about what you feel?
	No, I'm being honest about what I feel.
	I'm a nervous wreck right now.
	No, no, hang on.
	You said you don't feel it's productive for the conversation if you break down or flip out or your emotions, that we connect with each other through authenticity and honesty.
	So in a philosophical conversation entirely dedicated to truth, you feel that if you misrepresent your emotional state, that's the most productive thing you can do.
	Well, I think this is, you know, I'm trying not to let the damn break, because then I won't be able to, I won't be any good in this conversation.
	I'm just trying to...
	Okay, but why wouldn't you tell me that up front and say, Steph, I'm going to hide all of my true feelings from you in a conversation about bonding, attachment, trust, and security, and love.
	I'm going to hide all of my true feelings from you because if I'm honest with you about my feelings, I consider that hugely negative.
	No, I don't think it's like that.
	I don't want to hit a point where I'm just crying or upset and don't want to continue the call.
	I'm trying to get as much as I can out of this.
	I understand.
	Okay, but why would you, being really upset, and listen, brother, you've got stuff to be sad about.
	I mean, you really do, and I wouldn't, I mean, every time people get emotional in this show, I mean, I say the same thing, that this is welcome, this is powerful, this is authentic, this is connection, right?
	Because if people complain about you that they can't connect with you emotionally, and that's been the pattern, right, for your adult relationships, is that fair to say?
	No.
	Sorry, I thought you said a lot of people have told you that you have an icy heart, I think was your phrase.
	Okay, I think when I'm in a relationship with a woman, I can open up.
	When I feel, you know...
	It's not that I don't trust you.
	I listened to you for fucking 10 years.
	I know there's a shit ton of other people that are going to listen to this, and that's on my mind.
	Okay, and so...
	Oh, so I get it.
	So you're providing a negative example.
	So you're saying, well, if you don't connect with your feelings and you hide your feelings, then you have a fairly unproductive conversation.
	So you want to be like, kids don't smoke, and you're breathing through a hole in your neck.
	I mean, listen, there's value in that too.
	I just...
	Trying my best.
	Well, see, you give yourself the same platitudes that you give your parents, right?
	Yep.
	Trying your best, I think, would be if you feel something, and we're having a conversation about, you know, thoughts and feelings in life, right?
	If you feel something and you hide it, that is a form of lying by omission.
	I mean, I hate to use this phrase, safe space, because it's kind of been co-opted.
	But, you know, this is not a place where I would ever mock or scorn or condemn you for being honest with your feelings, right?
	I mean, I've wept openly in podcasts and laughed hysterically and been very angry and, you know, sometimes justly, occasionally not.
	But I don't think that I have modeled this, like, Stone-hearted stoicism and indifference to life as a whole, and you've probably heard a lot of people who've been emotional in various ways in these shows, and I'm always open, welcoming, and accepting to that.
	I know.
	I know.
	I know you're not going to scorn me and all this stuff.
	I'm feeling it.
	I'm feeling it, but I'm getting flustered at the same time.
	Okay, so this is the empathy stuff I was talking about earlier, right?
	Yeah.
	What was the harm in the past?
	So, you're a dad, right?
	How expressive, how emotionally expressive are babies?
	Very, like we're all born hardwired, connected in with our feelings, right?
	So we're all born with that.
	And we're all born and built and baked in and programmed and have a natural fluidity in the expression of our emotions, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, that's the default.
	The default position is emotional expression.
	That's our factory settings, so to speak, right?
	Yep.
	So, what was the price of emotional honesty and vulnerability when you were a kid?
	Well, my parents would find out what motivated me and then the things I cared about, what upset me, and then they would use it against me.
	Right.
	So your vulnerability was weaponized against you.
	Yes.
	Right.
	Right.
	So you're treating me and the audience, let's say, and I mean, the audience won't, I mean, maybe there'll be a comment or two on the podcast in one or two places, right?
	But it's not like there's this big, you know, massive Reddit thread of all of these shows, right?
	So let's just say for the moment, for me, right?
	So you're treating me as if I am your father.
	So you have to hold it together because your father and your mother would use your vulnerability against you, which I'm really sorry for.
	It's a terrible, terrible thing to do with kids, right?
	And I'm sure this happened in your marriage as well.
	The vulnerability then gets weaponized against you.
	But you are treating me as if I... Am an abuser.
	And what that means is that you can't be empathetic with yourself, really, or you can't be empathetic with others.
	Because empathy with an abuser gets you really badly exploited.
	Because an abuser will use your empathy to manipulate and control you.
	Yeah.
	100%.
	Right?
	Like, you know, like, Europe, hey, here's a drowned Turkish kid on the beach.
	Oh, we can't have any borders, right?
	It's weaponizing your empathy against your long-term self-interest, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, what that means is that your emotions have a tough time differentiating healthy people from toxic people.
	Yes.
	Why do you think that is?
	Fuck.
	I wish I knew.
	I mean, I can just tell you if you like.
	Yeah, just tell me.
	Yeah, it's because the toxic people are still welcome in your life.
	I mean, if you have a lion in your backyard and a little kitten in your backyard, who dictates your behavior?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Right.
	You get inside and you lock the doors and you call animal control for an airstrike or something.
	I don't know, right?
	So the most dangerous entity in your environment dictates your response to everything.
	You know, if there's a squirrel out there you'd like to feed, but there's a lion, you don't feed the squirrel, you flee the lion.
	If there's a lovely little bird and you want to see if it's got any eggs in its nest, you don't do that, right?
	Because the only thing that dominates your entire consciousness is the lion.
	Yeah.
	So if people who exploit your vulnerabilities and weaponize them against you are still welcome in your life, then you have to kind of treat everyone that way.
	In the same way that you'd run away from the kitten and the kitten would say, well, why is he running away?
	I'm not scary.
	Because the kitten can't see the lion.
	Yeah.
	So you have people who...
	They've insulted, exploited, abused, and neglected you, and they're still welcome in your life.
	But that means that you're in a perpetual state of fight or flight, which means you can't relax, you can't be open, you can't be vulnerable.
	You can't go pet the kitten because there's a lion in the backyard.
	Now you get the lion out of the backyard, and then you can start dealing with the kitten and the squirrel and the birds without the central threat.
	Yeah, you're right.
	Thank you.
	I just didn't see it.
	I don't know why.
	Well, listen, you are an entrepreneur, and you are a very independent-minded man, and that's a great thing.
	I mean, that's made you very wealthy, right?
	You retire at 38, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So, there is a lot to admire about independence of thought.
	But my God, man, it means it's hard to coach you.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, it does.
	And I'm, you know, I say this, you know, brother to brother, as far as, yes, I have a lot of independence thought, and it can be tough to coach me, but it is still important to...
	So, to take expertise.
	So, with regards to your family, you didn't follow the coaching.
	And I'm not blaming you for this, I'm just, it's actually great news.
	So with regards to your family of origin, you didn't follow the coaching.
	I mean, you said you forced your parents, so you kind of cornered and forced them, and you extracted apologies out of them like you're pulling teeth, right?
	No, I didn't force them to apologize.
	You forced them to have the conversations, you said, repeatedly.
	I forced them to have the conversation, 100%, yeah.
	Okay, and what was the consequence of them not apologizing?
	I still feel like shit.
	No, no, but let's say that your parents said, we're not having this conversation, they just got up and walked out every time.
	What would have been the consequences?
	Well, I wouldn't have let them do that, but I mean...
	Well, you can't hold them down, for God's sakes.
	What if they just got up and walked out?
	Yeah, follow them.
	They did walk out.
	We were having that conversation.
	That was it.
	Eventually, they learned not to walk away, because I would just follow them.
	Okay, so they get in their car and they drive off.
	Do you follow them in your car?
	I mean, I'm not sure how does this...
	I mean, are you stalking them?
	What are you doing?
	Yeah.
	Just the next time I see him, it's just like, again, again, again, again.
	Like, we're going to have the conversation.
	There was no escaping it.
	Otherwise, they weren't going to see me, and I know they want to see me.
	Okay, so that's the consequence, is that if they didn't have the conversation, you wouldn't see them.
	There we go.
	Yeah, I defood for, just with my mom, for about 18 months.
	Oh, that's a late-in-the-game little tidbit, but all right, we can roll with that.
	Well, I... I think it happened before our call.
	Oh, before our last call?
	Yeah, before the last one.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	Okay, so maybe we discussed it then, in which case I apologize if I forgot.
	Okay.
	All right, so...
	What was the consequence if they'd failed to acknowledge wrong and apologize?
	There hasn't been one.
	Well, okay, let's say that you'd had the conversation with them, and they denied all wrongdoing, they blamed you for being a bad kid, and they said, you'll get an apology out of me when hell freezes over.
	If they'd said that?
	Yeah.
	I wouldn't have seen them again.
	Okay.
	So you had them under threat of ostracism to get an apology.
	Yeah.
	Yep.
	Now, after you got, and sorry, how many of these, you said it was like a dozen conversations, or?
	At least, yeah.
	Okay, so after how many of these conversations, or how many of these conversations did it take to get an apology?
	It wasn't so much an apology, it was an acknowledgement of wrongdoing, and it was like a half-assed apology.
	Like what?
	What did they say?
	They're like, look, we didn't know, and at the time it was just normal, and I'm sorry you feel so bad now.
	It's so upsetting to me that you feel this way, and this is my dad speaking.
	He's like, I feel terrible that you feel so angry about how we raised you.
	It's kind of putting the onus on your feelings rather than his actions, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, they didn't apologize?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So, they didn't really admit wrongdoing either, is that right?
	I mean, they've said other things that, you know, I can't fully recall, but my dad, half-assed apology, like, acknowledgement of wrongdoing, but not like, I'm so sorry I did X, I'm so sorry I did Y. That never happened.
	Okay, so not really much apology, not really much self-ownership.
	A little bit blaming you, if I get this right, saying that the problem is that you're upset, not that they did something.
	It was a, I'm so sorry you're upset because of my actions.
	That's what he was trying to communicate.
	Let me just pass this in my brain.
	So, I'm so sorry you're upset because of my actions.
	I'm so sorry you're upset because of what I did.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So, he's sorry that you're upset, not at what he did.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	In other words, if you weren't upset, there wouldn't be a problem.
	So, the problem is that you're upset.
	Correct.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, no real apology, no real self-ownership, and no restitution.
	Did they bring up this topic without you bringing it up?
	No.
	Just to be clear, right?
	Did they say, you know, I was really thinking about what we talked about yesterday.
	I was up all night.
	I wrote this down.
	I want to tell you about my childhood, not as an excuse, but so you take it less personally or, you know, whatever, right?
	No, they never once brought it up.
	It was always me bringing it up.
	Okay, and they haven't brought it up in the years since, right?
	No.
	Right.
	So you didn't take the coaching, which is actually good news.
	Because the coaching is have the conversation and connect with the person, which means they take ownership, they take responsibility, they give you some causality, they genuinely apologize, they make restitution, and they bring up the topic until you're satisfied.
	Mm-hmm.
	Does that make sense?
	Yep.
	So you kind of cornered them.
	You, like, get that last little bit of toothpaste out of the tube.
	Wow, you don't need to do that.
	You're a wealthy guy.
	But when you weren't, right, you get that, you know, you get that, kind of get that grudging apology, and then it all vanishes the moment you let up the pressure, right?
	I mean, they changed their behavior.
	They're a lot more understanding and, I would say, sensitive.
	They understand me better now.
	And it's, I feel better now.
	Well, hang on, brother.
	I know, I know.
	Jesus, Jesus.
	Okay, first of all, if they were more sensitive, if they bring up the topic until you were satisfied.
	Correct.
	Right?
	I mean, if some guy's wife says, I hate being married to you because of X, Y, Z, and A, B, and C, right?
	That if he wants to stay married, he has to keep bringing up that topic until she's satisfied.
	Have I dealt with ABC? Have I dealt with XY? You know all of this.
	You're a business guy, right?
	So, they haven't done any of that.
	Also, if things had improved, why are you dating recently suicidal women with the delusion of stability?
	Like, I just have to, I mean, if things are resolved and solved, then why the hell are you making these crazy decisions?
	I definitely wouldn't say they're resolved.
	The situation's better than what it was.
	No, it's worse!
	Oh my god, man!
	Work with me here!
	Okay.
	Was your last girlfriend more or less stable than your wife?
	Less.
	Less stable.
	And obviously, I mean, with all too sympathy for her childhood and so on, and I'm glad she's getting the help that she needs, but I assume that you didn't meet your ex-wife a few months after she'd been suicidal and hospitalized.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	Are you moving in the right direction or the wrong direction?
	Wrong direction.
	Right.
	So, how can you tell me things are better with your parents when you're making worse decisions now than you did 20 years ago?
	Okay.
	Things are better with your parents.
	So you say to your parents, hey, I'm thinking of dating this girl.
	She was recently suicidal in a mental hospital.
	No, I don't discuss any of that with my parents.
	They live in another country.
	Oh my god, I really, honestly, it's like NPC. I'm not saying you're an NPC, but this program shit is insane.
	Okay, listen, quick question.
	Do you and I live in the same country?
	No.
	Oh my god, yet we're able to discuss these things.
	It's a miracle!
	These smoke signals didn't get blown away.
	The carrier pigeons made it all the way across the ocean.
	Oh, I can't possibly talk about things with my parents.
	They live in a different country, he says, talking with a virtual stranger about these things who lives in a different country.
	Yeah.
	So, please.
	I'm begging you, don't give me the NPC bullshit, okay?
	I know, but I prefer to have those conversations in person.
	That's why I avoided them when we worked.
	Okay, you and I, are we having this conversation in person?
	I know, I know.
	You're right, you're right.
	Come on, man.
	That's a cope, that's an excuse.
	You're right.
	You hide things from your parents, right?
	Yep.
	Why?
	Yes.
	Because they're fucking predators.
	Okay, so then it's not a mystery.
	What's going on?
	How does that fit together?
	I mean, the way I treat her and the way they treat me.
	Well, you can't be vulnerable with them, so you can't be vulnerable with her.
	You can't be curious about them, so you can't be curious about your girlfriend.
	You have this pretend relationship with them, but you kind of condemn them in your heart because you won't be honest and open with them.
	You have this kind of pretend relationship with your girlfriend, but you can't be honest in your heart because you condemn her.
	Mm-hmm.
	You can't be curious and empathetic with your parents because they'll use it against you.
	You can't be curious and empathetic with your girlfriends because they'll use it against you.
	You're emotionally closed off from your parents.
	You're emotionally closed off from your girlfriends.
	Bloody, bloody, blah.
	Yep.
	There it is.
	you You can't be closer than the least close relationship you have.
	And you're totally walled off from your parents.
	I mean, are your parents...
	And they're still friends with the woman who assaulted you.
	They love her.
	And you're fine with that.
	No, it fucking enrages me.
	Okay.
	Have you talked to them about that?
	Many times.
	And what do they say?
	It's usually my dad, and he's the one that tries, he's just like, oh, I'm concerned for the children involved, and I want to make sure that everyone's, you know, happy, and, you know, you can't get rid of this woman.
	She's going to be in your life forever because you have children together.
	Yeah, but what does that have to do with him loving her?
	I don't know.
	And when he says you can't make everyone, what does he say?
	He wants everyone to be happy?
	Yeah.
	So he says he wants everyone to be happy while you're directly telling him you're torturing me by saying you love this woman who assaulted me.
	Yes.
	So he wants her to be happy, not you.
	Well, I think he's fine with subtracting a good portion of my happiness and, you know, giving it to her and He's like trying to keep the peace, but it just...
	No, he's not keeping the peace.
	He's not keeping the peace.
	He's siding with the woman who assaulted his son and broke his heart.
	Now, I'm not saying you were perfect in the relationship, but I'm just saying, you know, you've got to have your blood loyalties, right?
	Yeah, and that's what I keep telling him.
	I've told him this two dozen times.
	And he hasn't changed at all.
	Correct.
	So...
	So, when I say you're fine with that, they're still in your life, aren't they?
	I mean, not like they used to be.
	They're still in your life, aren't they?
	They are.
	Okay, it's like saying, well, I don't put as much in that bank account as I used to.
	You still have the bank account, don't you?
	True.
	Okay, so you're fine with that, in that it's acceptable to you.
	I don't find it acceptable.
	That's not right.
	But you're still trying to make it right after over 40 years.
	I mean, I kind of gave up years ago on trying to fix them or have them understand it.
	It was just...
	I'm sorry, how recently did you have the conversation about your father loving your ex-wife?
	You're right.
	Okay, fine.
	You are a slippery son of a bitch, man.
	You're like Mr. Doggeroo to...
	I know, but the bulk of these conversations were happening 2016, 2017, and then...
	When did you last have a conversation with your father about his affection for your ex-wife?
	A few days ago.
	Okay.
	This is recent, though.
	We went, like, years without having...
	You see why it's hard to connect with you?
	Yes.
	Because you lie.
	And listen, I'm not calling you a big stinky liar.
	I'm not morally condemning you.
	I understand.
	I really...
	And I sympathize.
	I really do.
	But nonetheless, the bald-faced fact is you lie a lot.
	And I've had to catch you like 20 times.
	Are they lies, or is it just my...
	Like, I don't feel like I'm intentionally trying to deceive you.
	Are they lies?
	I mean, there's new ones.
	You say, I haven't tried to fix them for a long time, and yet you tried to fix your father a few days ago.
	Well, this is the most recent, like, series of conversations.
	We went, like, seven years without...
	Without me feeling or making the attempt to have these conversations...
	Okay, let me stop, because this is...
	I mean, sorry, listen.
	You're a very smart guy in his 40s who's listening to this, so I can't let you waste the planet's time this way.
	Tell me.
	Okay.
	Here's your big takeaway.
	Are you ready?
	Yes.
	This might sting a little.
	Go for it.
	All right.
	You are a censor.
	So what happens is, I ask you, and I'm sure this is other relationships too, I ask you for simple facts, right?
	And you give me falsehoods because you determine that the facts are not relevant.
	Okay.
	Right?
	I mean, you can listen back to this.
	This has been a constant wrestling of me begging you for facts and you giving me a bunch of interpretations and nonsense.
	You're right.
	Right?
	No, and again, I'm not condemning you.
	Honestly, I sympathize.
	I really do.
	You have this evasiveness because you were hunted, and you're still being hunted.
	Right?
	The rabbit with a fox on his tail doesn't run in a straight line.
	But you censor because, I'm just asking, you say, I haven't tried to change my parents for a long time.
	Right after you told me that you're really mad and you've talked to your family repeatedly, like, this is the sequence, right?
	And I'm not trying to catch a nitpick.
	I'm just telling you the sequence from the outside, right?
	Yeah.
	So you say, I've had repeated conversations.
	Oh, so I remember the sequence, right?
	So I say, well, you're fine, right?
	And you say, well, I haven't tried to talk...
	I haven't changed my family in a long time, and I said, well, when was the last time you had a conversation about them, your father being affectionate with your ex-wife?
	And you say, you wouldn't give me a real answer, but it seemed to be more recent, right?
	And then you went off on a story time, and then I'm like, well, when was it?
	And then you finally said a couple of days ago, right?
	A couple of days ago, yeah.
	Right.
	Now, again, you just understand from the outside, like, it's my job to ferret these things out, because I want to get to the real you.
	Sure.
	I want to get to the real you.
	Most people won't bother.
	Most people, they'll have a conversation where you're relentlessly evasive, and what will they do?
	Give up.
	I mean, sure.
	It's too much work.
	Because you're trying to decide the facts that people need to hear.
	Yes.
	So you're YouTube.
	Yeah.
	So you're saying, hey, I'm not going to give you any facts.
	I want you to accept my narrative.
	So you say, well, my parents are great to everyone, but they're kids, right?
	And my parents are really in love with each other, and those are bonded, right?
	And I say, well, what are the facts that support this?
	And we spent like half an hour chasing ghosts all over the place, right?
	So you say, I will determine what facts you get.
	I will give you narrative.
	Even when that narrative completely contradicts itself within 30 seconds.
	I will give you narrative.
	I will not give you facts.
	But that's earlier, but like when my jaw was dropped, right?
	Because you're an older guy, you're a smart guy, you're a long-term listener, and you say, well, my abusive and neglectful parents, yeah, my father totally fell in love with my mother when she was 24. Just love, love, love, right?
	So that's narrative, right?
	And I'm like, okay, well, what are the virtues that he fell in love with, right?
	What are the facts?
	What do they actually do in the world?
	What is all the good stuff they're bringing to the world, right?
	Yeah.
	And so you provide narrative and you withhold facts.
	That's manipulative and controlling.
	And also it means that people can't connect with you.
	All they can connect with is a flip through thesaurus rather than the actual you.
	So you shield the facts and your true self behind, and we all do this to some degree, so I'm not lecturing you from any superior place, right?
	So you keep your honest, true self and experience behind all of these layers of narrative, and you put out all of this narrative, and people can't get connected with you.
	This is why the girl said, I feel nothing for you, because there's just this whirlwind of language.
	There's not any actual person there.
	Well...
	I mean, I'm not saying there's no actual person there.
	I'm saying she couldn't probably experience it.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Maybe not that one.
	That person had a whole other set.
	That's an entirely different call just about her.
	No, but it doesn't matter because you chose her.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	You chose her.
	Yep.
	And so how you've had these emotions over the course of this call that you've ruthlessly suppressed, right?
	Because you have a narrative that you being emotionally open and honest with me is bad.
	So you are even selecting the emotions I'm allowed to experience from you.
	So you are rigidly controlling everyone's perception.
	Well, but there's all these people that are going to listen to this.
	So that should be good for them, for you to be honest, right?
	It should be good then for people to hear that, right?
	Yeah.
	So you are very much in control of what people perceive about you.
	This is a form of public relations or advertising.
	You selectively portray particular narratives rather than be directly honest, which means that people are going to have a tough time pair bonding with you because we cannot pair bond with narratives.
	We cannot pair bond with contradiction.
	Pair bond is trust based upon consistency and there can never be any consistency in narratives because they change based upon the defenses of the moment and the manipulations of the moment.
	And I say this again with respect and sympathy and admiration for your strength in the call and all of that, but the price of these Of this dishonesty.
	And again, I'm not saying you wake up rubbing your little pencil-thin mustache and plotting to pathologically lie to the world.
	I'm not saying anything like this.
	It's a habit, right?
	It's a habit that you had to grow up with.
	Your parents lie to the world by presenting themselves as wonderful while being pretty faustic and destructive at home, right?
	Ruthless.
	Right, right.
	So as far...
	You grew up in...
	You present your best, fuck the truth.
	Right, and that's understandable.
	You know, sorry, I shouldn't laugh.
	So the one thing that I would say about my mother is she never fell into that trap.
	She never fell into the trap, but I'm just going to put my very best foot forward out in the world.
	It's like, nah, she's pretty nuts out there too.
	Not as bad as at home, but it wasn't like, there was nobody who said, wait, your mother was dysfunctional?
	Like, there was never, like, whereas, you know, I'm sure if people knew the truth about your family, they'd probably be, you know, a little shocked, right?
	Yes, definitely.
	Definitely.
	So the narrative has both offensive and defensive capabilities.
	So the defensive capabilities are misrepresenting things so that you can't be criticized, right?
	Yeah.
	But the other thing that it does, and this is the other side, all defenses are attacks, right?
	Everything that is defensive is also an attack, right?
	So a gun that you could use for self-defense, you can also use for murder, right?
	Right.
	Whatever thing you could use to kill the cows with, you could also kill people with, right?
	So the little stun gun or whatever it is, right?
	The bolt.
	So everything that is defensive is also used for the offense, right?
	So you're very fluid at creating narratives that protect yourself, and then you're also very fluid at creating narratives that allow you to attack and condemn others.
	Which is why, when you were talking about your ex in the car on that terrible morning, She was just looking for attention.
	She was just blaming me.
	She wouldn't take responsibility.
	Like, all of this sort of caustic condemnation you have is a narrative.
	I mean, that's honestly how I saw it at the time.
	Absolutely, I get that.
	I get that, because you move into narratives.
	Now, listen, I get the feeling that you know a little bit about sales.
	Yeah, definitely.
	I'm good at it.
	And so sales is a narrative.
	And there's nothing wrong with that, right?
	But, I mean, you know, when you see an advertisement for beer, right, they don't show you the guy passed out throwing up blood in the Vegas gutter, right?
	They don't show you liver damage, they show you having a great time, like everybody's drinking a lot of beer but has six packs by a pool, right?
	This mystery planet, right, where beer is a health food.
	So...
	And so there's nothing wrong with these narratives.
	I mean, I literally write fiction to get to the truth, right?
	So there's nothing wrong with narratives, right?
	But you have to know what you're doing, and you have to have principles that allow you to unpack the narrative to get to the truth.
	So she created a narrative that you made her late for work, right, your girlfriend.
	And then you created a narrative that she was just Being completely crazy and blaming you and dysfunctional and you had sort of contempt for all of this, right?
	But neither of you were getting to the truth of what was happening.
	Because the narratives are fake news, right?
	If somebody has a narrative that they believe, they stop looking for the truth, because they think the narrative is the truth, right?
	Like, when you're driving home, you get home, you stop driving, because you've got to where you need, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Your family is embedded in narratives.
	And you were selling me, remember I said earlier, like, what kind of crap are you trying to sell me here, right?
	Which is, you know, my parents are so in love, they're so bonded with each other, they're so attached to it, they're devoted to it, loyal to each other, right?
	They have all these virtues, and it's like, no, because if you have virtues, you don't hit your children.
	You don't, right?
	Inflict this unreality on your children.
	Why are they so tight with each other, then?
	Like, they're just, it's them against the world, like, at the cost of everybody else, including their children.
	I mean, that's how I've always seen them.
	Okay, so are you saying to me, why do two people who do wrong cling to each other and have a lot in common?
	Yeah, that's it then.
	I mean, isn't that just to ask the question, just to answer it?
	Yep, I answered my own question.
	I just didn't say it like that before.
	I mean, they cling together to deny your reality, right?
	Yeah.
	They're not sitting there saying, no, no, no, we've got to listen to him.
	No, he's got really important things to say.
	No, we want to get this sorted out.
	No, maybe it was wrong to side with the ex who armed him, right?
	Yeah, they definitely don't.
	They never liked having these conversations.
	They don't like discussing things.
	Right.
	And they side with each other on this, right?
	Yes, with each other.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, if two people have embezzled a million dollars, and they really can't be caught, will they turn on each other?
	No.
	No.
	They'll side each other to the death, right?
	Yeah.
	I see your point.
	Yeah.
	This has been tough.
	you Look, I mean, my major goal is to just really have you not get into these kinds of situations.
	I don't know what to do.
	I care about this girl, and then she's got so many problems.
	I don't want her to hurt herself.
	So that's the reason why I'm still in her life.
	I haven't walked away from her.
	We still talk.
	Okay, so your theory is that you really care about this girl.
	I care about her.
	There's a bond, definitely.
	she's in love with me I'm really really gonna try this again She's in love with you.
	She says it.
	Oh, she says it.
	So that's a narrative.
	She says it.
	Okay, let me ask you this then.
	What are the virtues in you that she loves?
	And I'm not saying you don't have virtues.
	I'm just asking, what are the virtues in you that she loves?
	Loyalty.
	Loyalty?
	You condemn her when she's upset.
	Try that one again.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I have none.
	I don't know.
	She's attached to me because she doesn't want to be alone.
	She has no one.
	she has nothing she's just latched on to me Well, I mean, again, I'm not saying you don't have any virtues, of course, right?
	I'm just saying that I'm not sure how these virtues have really manifested in this relationship.
	I mean, I'm not like a cheater.
	And she's dealt with all these guys that cheated on her.
	I mean, she's a very beautiful woman.
	Oh, no, I know that.
	Now, let me ask you this.
	Do you think that in the time that she's known you, when she needs real peace, stability, and security after her mental health crisis, do you think that...
	Her life has become better and happier and more stable being involved with you.
	You're going to disagree with me, but I have to say yes.
	She was, for what it sounded like, absolutely miserable, just hating life before, and now it's like she doesn't even have any friends.
	At least she's got somebody that cares about her now and isn't going to walk away from her.
	You mean the guy who had sex with her and dumped her?
	No, I didn't dump her.
	She broke up with me.
	But my understanding was from my conversation with her that she was interested in continuing with things, but she found it very painful.
	I'm in the same boat.
	I guess if you want to say we hit the pause button, that's fine.
	It's been unspoken between us, but I know we both understand that.
	She's talking about coming to visit me, and that's something that's very difficult for her.
	So I'm open to it.
	I was really waiting for this call, and I encouraged her to have the call with you.
	She hadn't heard about you.
	I'm the one that set that up.
	So I was really waiting for some greater understanding of the situation before anything changed there.
	Okay.
	So how long did you guys go out?
	Three months.
	Okay, so you went out for three months.
	You slept together after the first couple of weeks, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you went out for three months, and you're in this tortured state of semi-breakup.
	Yeah.
	And you consider this adding to the stability of her life?
	Not the semi-breakup, but the relationship was definitely a positive thing, and I would still say the fact that I'm in her life...
	I'm somebody that honestly cares about her and what happens to her, and I'm fine.
	I'm far from perfect.
	I'm very imperfect, but I'm actively trying to improve her life.
	Okay, and what steps are you taking?
	I mean, outside of the course here, right?
	What steps are you taking to actively improve her life?
	She's had some financial problems, because she lost her job due to her hospital stay, her suicide attempt, so I've taken care of some of her bills for her.
	You know, I encouraged her to get the job because I thought it would be good for her.
	And that may not have been a good idea because she's really not enjoying it.
	I think it's stressing her out.
	And her therapist is now saying that it's not a good thing for her to be working.
	So, you know, it's something she and I need to discuss.
	So how much money have you given her?
	Oh, a couple thousand.
	Euros, right?
	Yeah.
	So you gave her money and you got her a job that's stressing her out.
	Well, I said...
	The way I found her was, you know, she's in her apartment.
	She doesn't get outside.
	She doesn't go anywhere.
	She doesn't do anything.
	She has these...
	If I'm allowed to say animals.
	She has horses.
	And she wasn't taking care of them.
	They said, you need to go out there and take care of these animals or sell them.
	They're worth a lot of money.
	I'm sorry, she's cruel to animals through indifference?
	No, she's not that.
	She just was depressed.
	I mean, they weren't getting the exercise and the attention that they needed, and they are now.
	She's a happier person now, or at least...
	You know, right before the breakup, she was definitely a happier person than when we first met.
	She's more active.
	She feels better.
	That's what she says.
	So why do you need to date someone who's at this stage in her life quite broken?
	I mean, why not just find a woman?
	I mean, you're a competent, successful man in the material realm.
	So why not just find a competent, successful woman?
	Why do you need a fixer-upper, project-y kind of person who's gone through a lot of trauma?
	I mean, think of yourself 14 years ago, right?
	You've had 10 years plus of self-knowledge and philosophy, and she's much younger.
	So why do you need...
	Someone like this rather than somebody who's already competent and successful and reasonably stable.
	Because my mom was dysfunctional and alcoholic and I always go for these women.
	They're always drawn to me and I'm always drawn to them.
	So it's just two traumatized people that get together and it just seems like such a good idea and I see the red flags and I'm just like You know, I overlook them.
	And I guess they do, too.
	So that's an honest answer.
	So you'd rather pretend to keep fixing mommy than actually have a stable woman who's going to be a good mother for your children?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	Well, then, that's fine.
	Then don't tell me that you want to have kids and want stability, right?
	You'd just rather keep going through this sick psychodrama with dysfunctional mom rather than choose a stable one.
	In other words, you're bypassing stable, happy women to go for, you know, these kind of chaotic and dysfunctional women.
	And I'm not trying to condemn her.
	I have great sympathy for her as well, right?
	But...
	That's what you would rather do, because you're still in life pretending that you could fix your mom.
	So I guess you have to keep trying to fix all of these damaged women, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And I'm sure this had some pattern with your ex, right?
	All of them.
	Right.
	So...
	I mean, you've listened to this for long enough.
	If you want to keep repeating childhood trauma in order to avoid genuinely criticizing your parents, you can do that.
	You are free to do that.
	I think it's highly dysfunctional and, of course, I also think that it's very damaging to the women, right?
	Because you can say that you want to fix all these women, but the one thing you have in common with most of them is you just sleep with them and then it doesn't work out.
	Which damages them, right?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	So, you also take the onus upon yourself to fix your mother, which won't work and can't happen.
	You can't fix your parents.
	Correct.
	They have way too much...
	It's like the janitor saying, I can fix McDonald's, right?
	I can fix the corporate profits at McDonald's.
	It's like, no, you don't have the authority, right?
	So...
	But again, I'm not really telling you anything you don't know, but you get to avoid your own vulnerability by feeling superior to women because I think that you're probably still quite angry at your mother because she's still in your life and there's still a lioness, in this case, in your backyard.
	So because you're probably still quite angry at your mother, you're probably taking it out by sleeping and hurting the prospects of a lot of women.
	Yeah, I am.
	Because also, you are a unicorn for a lot of these women, right?
	And here's where the praise part comes in, if you want to call it that.
	So, I mean, I've seen your picture, right?
	You're a very good-looking guy, right?
	I'm okay.
	No, no, no.
	Come on.
	I mean, for a guy in his 40s, you look fantastic.
	Thank you.
	No, I mean, you've got a nice thick beard, strong jaw, you know, you look to be a healthy weight, I'm sure you exercise, and you're, you know, fantabulously wealthy, and all this kind of stuff, right?
	Sure.
	I mean, you're kind of a rock star, and you were saying that you can get all of these younger women to date you and screw you, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you're kind of like a rock star.
	Because you look relatively young, and you have the kind of money that men their own age can only dream of, right?
	Yep.
	I mean, you don't have to tell me any details, but I'm going to go on the bland assumption that you're at least a multi-millionaire, if not a multi-deca-millionaire.
	Because you're retiring, right?
	And if you're smart enough to make all of that money, you're smart enough to know when you can and cannot retire.
	So you have more money than God for these women.
	You look fantastic.
	You're very intelligent, very articulate, and you know how to do a lot of sales, right?
	Yeah.
	So you vastly outmatch these women.
	In terms of...
	Wealth and stuff like that, yeah.
	Wealth, age, competence, eloquence, intelligence.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	What is the most accomplished woman you've dated?
	Career-wise?
	Oh, career?
	Okay, net worth?
	That would be the first girl I dated.
	Net worth, a few hundred thousand.
	Okay.
	But the rest, no.
	One of them was The second girl was wealthy by inheritance, aristocratic family.
	Okay, I'm not self-hiding the way that you were, right?
	Only the first one.
	Right, right.
	And they're doing well for 20s, right?
	But not your level, even close, right?
	Correct, none of them.
	Okay, have you dated a woman...
	Who has blown your mind with her thoughts and insights and value add to your life?
	Yes, the second girl.
	Okay, and what did she say that blew your mind?
	Oh my god, every conversation we had was just unbelievable.
	Wow, then she must have really helped you nail down the difficulties that your continued relationship with your parents was causing.
	No, mostly what we've discussed was her difficulties with her parents, We're worse than mine.
	Sorry, I thought you said that she was providing you insight, not you helping her.
	I mean, it was back and forth.
	Okay, so what did she tell you about your family that blew your mind?
	Oh.
	I'm struggling to think of anything specific.
	So you see we have another example of the narrative thing here, right?
	Well, I think I misunderstood what you said, actually.
	Okay, so I'm asking, what woman have you dated that really blew your mind with her insights and thoughts and awareness?
	Into me and my childhood.
	Yeah.
	None of them.
	Okay, so it's one-sided, right?
	Yes.
	So...
	This is you being the big man on campus, right?
	This is you, from your lordly pinnacle, reaching down to help these women, and it's entirely one-sided, so you don't have to be vulnerable, because you're in charge, you're wealthier, you're more experienced, you may be more intelligent, you're more accomplished, and so on, right?
	So, you know...
	Well, was that the case with your parents?
	Did your father dip down, in a sense?
	With regards to your mother?
	Was he kind of slumming it in terms of, yeah, you said he was more attractive and accomplished, right?
	No.
	I mean, he had no money in the beginning.
	I think she definitely saw the potential.
	He's a very intelligent, articulate, good-looking guy.
	Right.
	And she was dysfunctional and not that attractive, because she was an alcoholic, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, she became that over the years.
	I think when she was younger, it was in check.
	But, yeah, she came from a dysfunctional family.
	Okay.
	So, your father was, quote, superior in many ways to your mother, right?
	Okay, so let me ask you this last question, because I know we've had a long old chat, and I'm sure you have stuff to do with your day.
	What value do women provide?
	Yeah, I knew you'd say that.
	Because that's actually kind of true, right?
	What value do women provide?
	Fuck.
	What value do women provide?
	To me?
	Oh, come on, man.
	Stop stalling.
	You think I'm talking to someone else?
	I don't know.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	Let me ask you this.
	If this young woman, this 27-year-old woman, if she was a man, would you have given her thousands of euros?
	No.
	Okay, so what value do women provide?
	Let's say that she was a lesbian.
	Would you have provided her millions of heroes?
	No.
	Okay, so what value do women provide?
	But it's not just sex.
	If that's the answer you're looking for, it's not just sex, because I would have waited six months.
	I wasn't the one that initiated things.
	I told her, let's wait six months.
	She had other plans, and I was weak enough to go along with it.
	But...
	I'm not having sex with her now, and I still care about her, and I still want to help her.
	Yes, but now you've already had the sex and the bonding and the dopamine and all of that, right?
	Like, you know that sex with a woman releases bonding hormones, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so you know all of that.
	Now, listen, I really can't go with the multi-millionaire 41-year-old uber-chad being a victim of the sexual advances of a 27-year-old woman.
	I mean, I let it happen, but hell, I would have waited, but she didn't want to.
	Another thing I discovered with the second girl I dated, who I never slept with, who I was madly in love with, if you reject a woman like that and say, no, let's wait, they take it personal.
	Sure.
	And that's a great mark for immaturity.
	And that's a great mark for do they like you as a person?
	Yeah.
	Or I think in that case it was...
	I mean, she saw it as rejection.
	Like, I wasn't taking things seriously, or I really don't know.
	Right.
	She took it personally, and she didn't want you around if you weren't going to have sex.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so that's important.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, that's a filter, right?
	Yes.
	So, saying, immature people don't want me around if they can't have sex with me, that's not a bug, that's a feature.
	You know.
	So.
	Outside.
	Okay.
	Have you had relationships with women.
	Without.
	Sexual access.
	Yeah.
	Friends.
	Yes.
	Thank you.
	Yes, absolutely.
	Okay, and why was there no, were they married or old, or like, where was the no sexual access thing?
	Oh, just, there was no chemistry, I wasn't attracted to them.
	Okay, and what was the value that they brought outside of, obviously there was no sexual attraction or whatever, so what was the value that these women brought?
	Well, they're just good friends.
	Good friendship.
	Okay, so that's just more narrative, right?
	I enjoyed their company.
	I enjoyed spending time with them, and it was good to have somebody that was more like a sister or a cousin.
	Okay.
	And did those women provide you any advice on dating?
	No.
	Okay, so not much of a relationship.
	I mean, this was mostly when I was younger, and I mean, when I got married, I kind of got rid of my female friends.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like, they got married, and I got married, so we kind of went...
	Okay, so you had female friends before you got married, right?
	I mean, yeah.
	I don't see them like a sister.
	Sorry, what did your female friends say about your wife-to-be?
	She's the most amazing person that you've ever met, that you've ever dated.
	She's great.
	Okay.
	So, they didn't understand shit about anything.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So, they weren't good friends.
	I mean, you might have enjoyed each other's company.
	Maybe you liked going to play Canasta together or some shit like that.
	Maybe you liked bingo.
	I don't know.
	But, I mean, a friend would know something about what was good for you and be honest with you, right?
	Okay, so that's the question to answer.
	What value do women have?
	And if the only thing you can come up with basically is sexual access, which it sounds like that's really the only thing you can come up with, then you're doomed to this nonsense.
	No, I don't want that.
	I don't care about that.
	Yes, you do care about that.
	Come on, man.
	Come on!
	Stop selling me!
	Stop it!
	If this woman was 250 pounds, you wouldn't be giving her thousands of euros.
	Well, there would have never been a relationship.
	Right.
	So don't tell me that the sexiness or the sexual access doesn't matter.
	That's just shit people say, which is absolutely false.
	And, oh, come on, man.
	Like, I hope at the end of our conversation we'd be a bit further along.
	You wouldn't give me this bullshit.
	Right.
	If she was a man, would you give her the money?
	Nope.
	If she was a lesbian, would you give her the money?
	Nope.
	If she was 200 pounds, would you give her the money?
	Nope.
	It's like, okay, but I don't care about sexual access.
	Well, I mean, I would still give her the money now, even though we're not together, and I'm getting nothing out of it other than I know I'm helping somebody I care about.
	I don't want her to suffer.
	Well, if you don't want her to suffer, how about you don't have sex with her and then blame her for the inevitable results of her prior traumas?
	Correct.
	You're right.
	I shouldn't.
	Right.
	You had sex with a very unstable, recently suicidal woman, and then there's a tortured half-relationship.
	There's recrimination, blame, and condemnation, and you say, well, but, you know, I just want the best for her.
	I didn't want to upset her.
	Mm-hmm.
	Mm-hmm.
	But that's not true.
	This was as predictable as sunrise.
	Do you really think?
	Come on, man.
	A friend of yours says, well, this woman was recently suicidal and in a mental hospital.
	I think I'm going to have sex with her.
	What would you say?
	Yeah, don't do it.
	It's a terrible idea.
	Of course.
	So please don't tell me about all of your noble intentions.
	She was hot and you wanted to bang her.
	Because you're angry at mom.
	But I really care about her.
	Like, I have genuine emotions.
	See, I don't give a shit what you say, because you're a narrative guy.
	I only care about what you did.
	What's verifiable?
	You can say any shit you want.
	I don't care if I never see her again.
	I just don't want her to hurt.
	I want her to have a good life.
	Right, I get all of that.
	You just want her to have a good life.
	After you banged her and had a tortured relationship with her and blamed her for being upset when she was attacked as a child.
	I get it.
	You're just a noble-hearted guy.
	Just want the best for people.
	That's why you keep dating these women, sleeping with them, and then it doesn't work out.
	That's why you called your ex-wife to see you next Tuesday, word?
	Because you're just a nice-hearted guy.
	See, you can just make up this narrative, right?
	But I really feel it.
	See, that's just...
	I don't know.
	How am I supposed to verify that?
	I can only verify what you do.
	And you should be empirical with yourself.
	Because if you do things that are bad...
	Listen, brother.
	You dating this girl was a bad thing.
	Yes.
	It was a bad thing.
	It was a wrong thing.
	It was a harmful thing.
	And you know better.
	You've had 10 years of self-knowledge and philosophy.
	You're 40-plus years old.
	Mm-hmm.
	She's a traumatized ex-mental patient who was suicidal a couple of months ago who's 14 years younger.
	That's exploitation.
	You did wrong.
	Now, we've all done wrong.
	I'm not trying to condemn you from some high mountain here, but you did wrong.
	But you don't, because you keep telling me about how you care about her and want nothing but the best for her.
	You did wrong!
	So what are these feelings I have for her?
	Why do I care about her?
	I don't care and I don't know because I don't trust what you say.
	I can only judge what you do.
	Well, I'm still going to send her some more money this month even if I never see her again.
	I'll do whatever it takes.
	I don't want this person to hurt themselves.
	That's what I'm so concerned about.
	I care about her.
	I don't want her to kill herself.
	If you cared about her, if you cared about her, what would you have done differently if you genuinely cared about her?
	Well, not slept with her.
	Not dated her, not slept with her, be with her as a friend, suggest she get into therapy, maybe give her some philosophy, a book or two, something like that.
	Be available to her without screwing her.
	Yep.
	Right?
	Because that's about your needs and your preferences, right?
	You're not sitting there saying, is this the best person I can choose to be the mother of my children?
	So because you have access to narrative, you have a drug that takes away the pain of misbehavior.
	Because what you need to do to be a good person, I'm not saying you're a bad person, I'm not saying you're not a good person, but to be better, Is you say, I'm going to judge myself by what I did, not by the stories I tell myself.
	Because that's all I've been doing for the last two hours and 41 minutes, is to try and get you to judge people and yourself by what they did rather than what they say, because anyone can say anything.
	Sure.
	You did not have this woman's best interests at heart.
	Thank you.
	You found her sexy, you wanted to sleep with her, and now you have a narrative.
	and you wanted to sleep with her at the expense of her long-term mental health.
	Now, that's not a great thing to do.
	Thank you.
	But I do want to be with her.
	I want to be with her.
	She's just not stable, and I want to help her.
	I want to help her through this stuff.
	I don't I don't care, even if I don't have kids.
	I care about her.
	So you will give up having children with a good, noble, and healthy woman in order to get entangled with this woman's mental challenges?
	I mean, Listen, just be honest.
	Is that your perspective?
	I'm not going to condemn you.
	I'm just curious.
	Yeah, I mean, I have these feelings for her, so...
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I might be willing to do that.
	All right.
	Well, I suppose that's the end of our conversation then, right?
	Because, I mean, I've certainly made my case, and you are a very grown, accomplished, intelligent man who's obviously responsible for making his own decisions.
	And if this is the path you want to take, I mean, obviously I disagree, but this is the path you're going to take, right?
	I got you.
	Well, I understand your point.
	All right.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	I'll drop you a line.
	I really would appreciate that.
	And I obviously wish the very best for you both.
	And I would love to hear how this plays out.
	And I really do appreciate your time today.
	Thank you.
	I really appreciate it.
	Take care.

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