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Dec. 3, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:03:22

HELP ME FORGIVE MY PARENTS! Freedomain Call In

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	Hi Stefan, I am currently six weeks pregnant with my first child.
	Things are going good and stable at home, both with my marriage and slow days.
	Only now I have started to feel that I need to make contact with my abusive family once more.
	I have a lot of Christians around me saying it's important to forgive.
	And now that I am pregnant, I also feel that I want to see if they might change or maybe have changed while we were separated.
	Or if I say the right thing, maybe they change.
	But I also fear that both forgiving them and also making contact with them endanger my unborn child.
	Could we please discuss this matter so I don't do something stupid and ruin the chance I have to give my children a peaceful childhood full of peaceful parenting?
	A very wise question.
	I wouldn't put the stakes so high.
	If you make a mistake and get back in contact with your family and they turn out to be nasty, well, you can just not be in touch with them again.
	So it's not like everything hinges on one decision and your children's future.
	If you make a mistake, you can just undo that mistake.
	I'm not saying it's not important, but it's not maybe as...
	Life, permanent life-altering.
	Should I saw off my own arm?
	Okay, well, that's a bit of a one-way trip.
	That's a one-way trip.
	But of course, it's a great question to ask, and I'm obviously eager and happy to help however I can.
	So I guess if you can tell me the story of your childhood and what happened with your family.
	Yeah.
	Could I just add something further?
	It's your call.
	I would like to add something.
	Because I talked this through the other night with my husband as well.
	And so we came a little further into the problem.
	I've figured out that because it has happened once more that I wanted to take contact with my family again and actually did contact my father and the similarity to this situation then and now is that I'm staying in kind of with people I shouldn't stay in.
	Last time was with quite the A bad job at kindergarten that wasn't really too nice to the kids.
	This time it was several things.
	It was a state support program to get back into work and also a therapy that didn't really work too well.
	Then having lots of people around me saying, oh, you should just forgive your parents and stuff like that.
	So I've kind of figured out that that's the surrounding when I feel I have to contact them.
	But that's...
	Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand.
	So you're asking me, or the part of this is, should you be in touch with your parents again, and your husband is now in touch with your father, is that right?
	Oh, no, no.
	That's not right.
	Sorry.
	Sorry, good.
	I cleared that up.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, no.
	Two years back, I had the same thoughts that I might have to take contact with my parents again, and then I took contact with my father.
	But it didn't work out, and I don't have contact with him anymore.
	So where my husband comes in is where him and I have discussed And why I feel, or their surroundings, when I feel I have to contact my parents.
	Does that make sense?
	I got that.
	And sorry if I missed the part about the kindergarten program.
	Oh, yeah, so last time that I felt that I had to contact my family, and then I worked in a bad work environment, where the kindergarten where I worked weren't really...
	It wasn't a good place for kids, for children.
	Got it, okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	All right, I understand.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And when is the baby due?
	We think in April sometime.
	So it's far from now.
	Okay.
	So yeah, if you can tell me a little bit about what happened or a lot about what happened to you as a child.
	Yes.
	So my parents weren't too great.
	One second.
	Kjerik, can you close the door?
	Yeah.
	Can you close the door?
	Sorry, I just had to ask my husband to close the door.
	We live in a small apartment.
	Well, I grew up on an island with my parents and my sister.
	And my parents had seven divorces while I was growing up.
	Or some were like divorces and some were separations from living together with both each other and with other women and men.
	So it has been quite unstable and quite some moving but Both my parents stayed on the same island, so I have been staying in the same school.
	And my sister has also been staying in the same school.
	Is this island called Hell?
	Is that the official name?
	Our selected island of Orgy Hell.
	So, your sister from the same mother and father?
	I mean, do you have half-siblings?
	What is going on with this revolving doorstep?
	I don't have half-siblings, but I have...
	Is it called step-siblings in English?
	Or like bonus siblings?
	Step-siblings, yeah.
	If it's...
	Say your father ends up marrying a woman who has children unrelated to you, those would be step-siblings.
	Okay.
	So my father and my...
	Mother, they never married the ones that they were dating, but they always moved in and we always got extra siblings.
	Does that make sense?
	Where did the extra siblings come from?
	From the people that my parents were dating.
	Is this like a commune?
	Sorry, I don't understand the word.
	A commune is where...
	You have a bunch of people who decide to live in common and raise their children in common and sometimes all sleep with each other and there's no mother-father nuclear family pair bonding.
	It's just everyone's around, everyone and all the children are raised together.
	Okay.
	No, it wasn't really like that.
	It was more like, say my father got a new girlfriend and she had three kids from before and they all moved in and lived with us maybe a couple of years and they broke up and everyone left.
	What was the belief system behind all of this?
	Was there some, I mean, this is almost like some nightmare of Plato, right?
	So was there some belief system behind this, like petty bourgeois morality and how dare they try and confine our sexuality and pair bonding and everyone's welcome?
	And was it like hippie, dippy, lefty stuff, or was there other ideology behind it?
	I'm not sure if it was an ideology, but it's really common in my country that one kind of gets together and lives together without getting married and having another...
	Are you trying to tell me that there's a country out there Well, it's common to have seven divorces between your parents?
	No, no, no.
	Okay, so let's not bell curve this one too much if you're way off on one side of the bell curve, right?
	Yes.
	In my country, it's average for people to be tall.
	My father is nine foot tall.
	It's like, yeah, but that's still outside the average.
	No, sorry, that's not what I meant.
	I meant it's normal to live together without being married and to divorce.
	Right, but seven is still high, right?
	Yes, yes, it's still really high.
	It's normal with maybe once or twice.
	And do your parents, hang on, so do your parents know that they're pretty far outside the norm even within your country?
	I don't think so.
	Okay, so for them it feels normal.
	Yes, I have talked with them about it and the only answer I could get is like, well, you know, things happen and you never know what life brings and just this.
	Not, yes, this is common or not.
	Just, you know, things happen in life and this isn't.
	Yes, okay.
	I think they think it's normal.
	Yeah.
	Well, they must know that some people plan and stay monogamous.
	So what's their relationship to that?
	Is it just, well, those people happen to roll the monogamy value on the random dice of life, and we happen to do the polygamy or whatever, right?
	Yeah, I think that's the view.
	Okay, so they're kind of passive, things happen, and you just roll with it, right?
	Yeah, yes.
	Okay, so that is kind of lefty, right?
	Which is that the environment determines your choices and you just roll.
	Like, you can't make the environment.
	It's just whatever happens.
	Well, I happened to meet this girl and I was attracted to her, so we moved in together.
	And then, you know, this other girl needed a place to live, so we moved in.
	Like, it's just sort of passive and reacting to the environment.
	Yes.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Got it.
	So, yeah, that's the...
	And is there any scorn towards more traditional or normal ways of interacting?
	Is it like, well, those people are too square.
	They say square.
	Like, the people who just...
	Oh, you know, the people who just get married and stay with one partner their whole life.
	Oh, how boring.
	You know, is there any kind of...
	Superiority in the way that they live, or is it just that's what happened and everything else is fine too?
	No, it's more like that's what happened and everything's fine too.
	I think my dad once said that, oh, I wish I could have stayed with one person, but life happens.
	That type of thinking.
	So I think it's like...
	Okay, so, but if life happens, and I'm sorry to sound annoying, if I am, I'm trying to sort of understand if everyone who has a way of life has a relationship with the opposite.
	Yes.
	So, I live a rational life, and I dislike anti-rational people.
	Right, so I live a life of monogamy, and I dislike cheaters.
	Yes.
	Right?
	So I live a life where I try to be honest and I dislike liars.
	So everyone who lives a life usually has a negative relationship to the opposite life.
	I don't think, or yes, I don't know, actually, because I haven't got the feeling that my parents do dislike the opposite.
	And that's fine.
	They might not have any particular relationship, but And the reason I'm asking is that I assume that you have a bit of an opposite life to theirs?
	Yeah, that's true.
	Right, so my question is, do they have...
	So, my mother is a mystic, and so when I got into rational philosophy, she disliked it, because it's the opposite.
	And so, I'm just curious, if you're having a more traditional, stable, pair-bonded, monogamous relationship with no divorce, do they view that as the opposite, or it's just a different path?
	They say that it's just a different path.
	Okay, got it.
	No negative judgment.
	Okay, I understand.
	No, but regarding religion, they have some negatives.
	Or my father does.
	it's a bit hard to explain, but he had a friend, and that friend broke contact with his family because he got a wife who was very religious and didn't like the family.
	Or that's the story that I've been told.
	And so in my case, my father and my mother's explanation is like, it might be that she's Christian, but it also might be her husband brainwashing her.
	yeah that's that's what So that is a path that they don't like.
	So we have finally found a path that they don't like.
	What if your life path is just away from your family?
	Why would they say that this is brainwashing and Christian evil?
	Isn't it just a different...
	Their path led them to some people and away from others, right?
	Yes.
	So maybe your path is just leading you away from your family, so why would they be upset about that?
	I think because it's revealing that they weren't great parents.
	Well, no.
	I mean, hang on.
	So when your father divorced your mother or stopped being pair-bonded with her, I don't even know, broke up with your mother or whatever, right?
	So that was just his path, right?
	Yes.
	So his path led him to your mother and then his path led him away from your mother.
	So your path is just leading you away from your parents.
	So why is that brainwashing?
	Why is that negative if you just follow a path?
	Life happens.
	You just ended up, you know, moving away from your parents.
	I'm trying to figure out what ideas they have that they would be hostile.
	So they can break up with each other, but you can't break up with them.
	They break up with each other.
	It's just, hey, man, it's yin, it's yang, it's pendulum, it's any way the wind blows, you go here, you go there, and it's totally fine.
	But if you break up with them, well, you're brainwashed by an evil Christian, like, that's what I'm trying to...
	So we finally found their hostility.
	So why is it that they can perfectly, happily break up with people they chose, but you can't break up with people you never chose?
	I don't know why they think that way.
	But they don't like...
	They don't like your husband.
	But that's the case at the first, when he was with me at home.
	Then they liked him very much.
	Well, before he disagreed with them, yeah.
	It's pretty easy to have people like you if you disagree with every stupid thing they say, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	No, I don't know.
	I just think they dislike that I'm more...
	Kind of black and white.
	It's right and it's wrong and they're like...
	Hang on, they're black and white though because they were together and then they were separate.
	That's black and white, isn't it?
	They were married and they were divorced or they were together and then they weren't.
	That's black and white, isn't it?
	Yes.
	Okay, so I'm not sure what the hostility is to the black and white stuff.
	No, I just think that...
	I don't know.
	To me, it would make sense if they were like, or when they are like, there are no rules and we can do whatever we want.
	And I say that that's not the case, but they have...
	Sorry, did you say your father?
	Okay, who's saying that your husband is brainwashing you?
	Which one of your parents, or is it both?
	My mother.
	So your mother says that your husband is brainwashing you, and your mother broke up with your father how many times?
	Three times.
	Three times, okay.
	And she broke up with a bunch of other men too, right?
	Actually, she broke up with one other man but two times, and with my father three times.
	And my father broke up with...
	Two other ladies, but three times.
	So they have kind of gone...
	Alright, so, I don't know.
	I lost track, but I guess seven or eight, right?
	Okay, so they broke up with people seven or eight times.
	Did they ever say, well, the reason that my partner broke up with me is because my partner was brainwashed?
	No.
	Okay.
	So, breakups, for them, don't involve, necessarily, they don't involve brainwashing.
	No, it doesn't.
	Okay.
	So, why is you not seeing your parents, why is that brainwashing, when your parents not seeing each other is just the path, man?
	I think they look like the relationship between adults and parents and children differently.
	Why?
	Like, I don't know.
	Yeah, you do.
	Why?
	Why do they view them differently?
	I mean, they chose each other and broke up with each other.
	You never chose them.
	Would they say that an arranged marriage, you have to stay together, but a voluntary marriage, you don't?
	No, I don't think so.
	I don't think they would, no.
	Do you want the answer?
	Sorry, yes.
	Yes, you want the answer.
	The answer is that there's one thing and one thing only that lazy, self-indulgent, selfish hedonists hate.
	Moral standards.
	Or, to put it another way, Demons hate Jesus, or something like that.
	No, the sort of lazy, self-indulgent, live-and-let-live hedonists hate one thing and one thing only, and that's objective moral standards.
	Yes.
	If you have a good reason for breaking up with someone, they hate that.
	If you have no reason or a bad reason, well, they're fine with that.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	That would be the case.
	So if a moral person goes to a bunch of hedonists and saying, you guys are barely living above the level of pigs snuffling in a trough, well, that may object to.
	But if it's just like, well, I'm tired of having sex with you, maybe I'll go have sex with you, they're fine with that, because that is kind of living at the level of an animal.
	But the moment someone goes to a hedonist and says, maybe you should not be living at the level of an animal, maybe you should have some sort of higher goal or objective rather than satisfying your own flesh and lusts and hunger, then they unite in anger and then they get mad, right?
	Yes, yes.
	Does that sort of fit?
	Yes, it fits very well, yeah.
	Alright, so, your childhood.
	Tell me a little bit about, other than the marriage chaos, what happened?
	Yeah, so, I think for me, the best thing would have been the island, because it has had a lot of nature and I could be alone a lot.
	Though, I think the problem would be that I liked better to be alone than with others.
	And the reason for that is that my parents...
	I have kind of grown up hearing that my mom didn't want me, but it was only when she was really, really angry, but then she didn't want me.
	And then...
	They have both agreed that I am really weird and really different from normal children.
	Sorry, there's so many questions in my head.
	So how old were you when your mother said she wished you hadn't been born?
	The first time I remember is six years old, I think.
	And what does she say?
	Straight out?
	That she didn't tell me?
	And that I was a troll?
	That you were what?
	A troll.
	It's like...
	It's a really mythical, ugly creature.
	Right, no, I mean, I just wasn't sure if you were, like, you know, trolling on the internet or something.
	Oh, no, no, just like...
	Yeah, like lives under a bridge, frightens children.
	Okay, you've got to pay with gold.
	Yeah, no, I get it.
	Okay.
	So you were an ugly creature and a beast, and she wished that you hadn't been born.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So that's evil.
	Yeah.
	That is an evil thing to say to a child.
	And I say it's more than just abuse because you are wishing death upon the child.
	And it shatters the pair bond with the parent.
	Children are secure exactly to the degree that they feel loved.
	Yes.
	And if your mother says, I wish you'd never been born, she is saying, I will not protect you.
	You cannot rely upon me.
	You cannot depend upon me.
	I am indifferent to your survival.
	At best.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Do you know...
	Now, there's no justification for it, but why did she say that at that time?
	Well, at that time...
	Well, I think I'd done something that irritated her.
	I was trying to get a sleepover with a friend, and she wouldn't let me, so I took my bike and started biking to my friend.
	Which is ironic, because you were actually acting in a somewhat hedonistic fashion, which you think they would approve of.
	Yeah.
	Doing what you want, what pleasures you, but apparently that's just unacceptable.
	For a six-year-old, though, apparently it's perfectly fine for a 30-year-old.
	Yeah.
	So she got angry and...
	I don't know.
	It feels like she had a combined anger and panic attack at that time, I think, because she...
	Came and got me from the bike and we went home and then she closed herself up in the room and screamed and hit the bed and when I went to try to comfort her that's when she said those things to me.
	And do you know why she got so hysterical when you did what you wanted?
	I I don't know, but I think it was recently after the first divorce with my father, so I guess she was under a lot of stress, but I still think she shouldn't have done it.
	No, she shouldn't have done it, I completely agree.
	So, I think there's a larger principle, which I'll just touch on briefly here, it may come up again later, which is that the problem...
	Now, I use the word hedonist, but I don't want to use that if that's really inaccurate.
	Hedonists just generally live for their own pleasure and don't have any particular moral standards that they adhere to.
	Yes.
	Is that a fair way to put it?
	Yes, I would think so.
	So, hedonists are not very good at handling negative stimuli.
	No.
	Right?
	So, if they feel bad, they'll drink, they'll smoke, they'll have sex, they'll take drugs, they'll go to music festivals, they'll put on headphones, they'll do something to just escape.
	The negative feelings.
	And of course, learning how to deal with uncomfortable or difficult feelings is just part of maturity, right?
	It's just part of growing up.
	And you see toddlers sometimes, if they have meltdowns, they're having difficulty dealing with their negative feelings.
	So the way that we deal with our negative feelings is we learn how to say no to ourself.
	And not in a harsh way, but, you know, like, if I want a piece of...
	Like, I stopped eating sugar, for the most part, this year.
	So I still, like, for months, I was looking at candy bars, and my mouth was watering.
	But I just have to say, well, no...
	I'm getting into my middle 850s.
	It's probably a good idea to cut back on sugar as a whole.
	So I did that, and it's been a generally positive experience.
	But you just have to get used to saying no to yourself.
	And that way, you learn how to deal with negative feelings, right?
	Because I want the candy bar, and I sort of gently say, no, that's probably not the way we want to do it.
	And I find something else.
	Maybe I'll have some raisins or a fig or something like that, right?
	So when you learn to say no to yourself, you learn how to deal with negative feelings in a way that's productive and mature.
	But if you're a hedonist, you don't say no to yourself.
	So then when something comes along that thwarts your will, you completely freak out.
	Because you don't thwart your own will, and so you don't say no to yourself, so then when someone else says no to you, you freak out, which is why they're so mad at you taking your space or your distance or going no contact or something.
	I just wanted to sort of mention that's why she completely freaked out.
	Okay, okay.
	Because she's not able to handle it.
	She doesn't say no to herself, and so when you say no to her, no, I am going to go on the sleepover, she doesn't have any way to handle it.
	Okay, okay.
	That makes sense.
	Was there any verbal abuse or sexual abuse or emotional abuse or violence as a whole?
	No sexual abuse.
	A bit of physical...
	Not hitting, nothing very serious, just shaking.
	For example, I had one time where my mom would drive us to the kindergarten and my sister insisted on putting on nail polish.
	And she would be really angry.
	And then my mom would grab her and push her down in the car seat and holding her.
	But it's more restraining kind of physical, but nothing.
	Nothing much more than that.
	Like restraining and shaking a bit.
	For me, I think it's more like verbal abuse.
	Because my mom and dad had an agreement that I was weird and not like other kids.
	So...
	They always told both me and my sister and everyone else that I was weird and that I could never change.
	And to me, I would often hear, like, you shouldn't do this and you shouldn't do that and you shouldn't, like, have so high a voice, you shouldn't run around.
	I had a long list of things I couldn't do while playing with other kids.
	And I also kind of had, like, I don't know how to put it.
	I was basically told that I shouldn't play with others because they wouldn't like me if they knew how I really was.
	Sorry, can you tell me a bit more about that?
	It's more like if I...
	Whatever I did, I think my parents didn't like that I had a lot of energy.
	I don't know how to explain it.
	It's just a lot of small comments that...
	Don't play like that.
	And if you do this, then they are not going to like you.
	And you shouldn't do that too much.
	Okay, but what?
	What were they objecting to?
	It was different things all the time, I think.
	But in general, generally maybe how I acted, like that I... I ran a lot when I was a kid.
	Sorry, I feel like we're really stalling out here.
	You're living on an island.
	What's wrong with you running?
	I'm not disagreeing with you, of course.
	I'm just trying to understand what they had a problem with.
	What's wrong with running?
	I don't know.
	No, but they must have had some story about it.
	Kids won't like you if you run.
	Half your kid is half a child that is running around.
	I mean, what was their reasoning?
	Mostly this was like at home, in the house, or in the yard.
	Okay, in the house I can kind of understand, right?
	You turn a corner and a kid comes crashing into you, okay.
	But in the yard?
	What's wrong with running in the yard?
	I don't know.
	No, but what did they say was wrong with it?
	And there's nothing objectively wrong with it, but what did they say?
	Running is don't run because, or did they ever give a reason?
	No, not really.
	They just said don't run because, or yes, they gave a reason.
	They said don't run because then other kids won't like you.
	Even by dysfunctional parent standards, that's insane.
	What does that mean?
	Other kids won't like you if you run?
	I'm not doubting your memory, of course.
	Usually there's a better story than that.
	Why would other kids not like you if you run?
	I think that...
	I think they meant that...
	It seemed to other kids that...
	I was a bomb, like I would have too much energy, and that if I were really active and other kids weren't that active, that it didn't match up when playing.
	But I don't know.
	Okay, I don't really understand that.
	I mean, isn't that for the other kids to decide?
	Yes, it is.
	I really don't remember when I were with only kids and not my parents being there that there was ever a problem.
	Okay, so what do you think was good?
	Because it's funny, hedonists should not be controlling that which gives a child pleasure.
	If you like to run around, maybe not so much in the house or whatever, right?
	But if you like to run around, you should facilitate that.
	Parents should facilitate that, right?
	Yes, I think so.
	If you're hedonist, then running gives you pleasure.
	Yeah, run, kid, enjoy, right?
	Yeah, but I think often when they told me this, it was in front of other adults.
	It's like in front of other parents or in front of family.
	No, but they're on hedonist island.
	Shouldn't everyone be like, yeah, run if you like it?
	I don't know.
	I think...
	Especially my father, and I've seen it with one of my cousin's sons as well, like when we have had dinner parties, my father would make this mocking sound.
	He would go like, boom, boom, boom, after the kid, and then make circle with his eyes and be like, ah, kids, or ah, that kid.
	And he did the same to me, and so I don't really get it, but So, hang on.
	So, what is your father, he's rolling his eyes, and what is behind that?
	What is the statement or statements behind that to you?
	Well, to me, I think...
	To me, it just seems like...
	Because this is only when other adults are around, that sound and the rolling of the eyes.
	so I think I think it's I don't know but I think he might feel more accepted by the others if he say that the kids in the house have so much energy and it's so much work Oh, so kids are annoying?
	Yeah, I think that.
	Yeah, I mean, there's sort of an older generation thing.
	It's a bit of a boomer thing.
	You're obviously a lot younger than me, so, you know.
	Would you characterize your parents as boomers?
	Not really.
	I would say the generation after.
	Okay, Gen X, okay.
	The good generation, my generation.
	But there's a thing around parents, this was kind of common when I was a kid, you know, children should be seen and not heard.
	You know, the parents would say, if you were in front of the TV, they would say, I know you're a pain, but you're not a windowpane.
	My mother used to say, insanity is hereditary, we get it from our kids, you know, that kind of thing, right?
	So it's, you know, kids are annoying, kids are in the way, kids are loud.
	And you see this even now on social media.
	People will post and say, can you believe that these people brought their three children under the age of six to this nice restaurant and here we are just trying to have a nice meal and these kids are making noise and running around and acting up and all this kind of crazy stuff, right?
	Yes, yeah.
	That's tragically common in these kinds of posts, right?
	Yes.
	And again, it's all kind of evil in a way.
	Yeah.
	Because if you don't like kids, you know, it's pretty easy.
	To deal with that.
	Don't have kids, right?
	And so to have kids and then say, oh, kids are such a pain, they're so inconvenient, they get in the way, they're so loud, they're so this.
	So, what do you think the purpose is behind those kinds of statements?
	To try to get sympathy.
	I don't know.
	Oh, try to get sympathy?
	Well, no, because you would only get sympathy if other parents shared your same weird beliefs.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So why do you think hedonists of all people, right?
	Why would they say that about kids?
	I don't know.
	Would you like to know?
	Was this helpful?
	Yes, please.
	So the reason that hedonists say that is they say, kid, I live for my own pleasure.
	You don't give me pleasure, so you better not say or do anything that interferes with my pleasure.
	You better not criticize me.
	You better not cause me any trouble.
	You better not make me unhappy.
	Because I live for my pleasure, and if you get between me and my pleasure, you're disposable.
	You're expendable.
	Yes.
	It's a way of making sure that the child doesn't come to the parent with needs or preferences that interfere with the parent's pleasures.
	Does that make sense?
	It makes sense, yes.
	I mean, did you inconvenience your parents much?
	Did you fight for what you wanted to do?
	I mean, I guess you tried when you wanted to go for the sleepover, but then your mom was horribly harsh about all of that, right?
	Yeah.
	A little bit, but it kind of always ended with my mom going crazy like that.
	So you couldn't negotiate and you couldn't inconvenience your parents.
	So when parents say, what is it?
	This is Bill Cosby used to talk about this.
	His father would say, well, I brought you into this world.
	I could take you out, right?
	I mean, that's like a death threat, right?
	So it's a way for parents to say, you better not interfere with what I want to do.
	Because you are an inconvenience to me.
	You're already an inconvenience to me.
	And therefore, I don't have to bend to your pleasures.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Like, it's kind of like this.
	So, if you're driving someplace and...
	Someone, like, ends up driving with you in your car.
	Maybe you stop to pick them up or something, and it's not convenient, but you're just trying to be nice or whatever, right?
	Because it's raining or something and so on, right?
	You're already doing them a big favor.
	It's already kind of inconvenient for you because they're wet and maybe a little smelly and they're in your car.
	But you're trying to be nice or whatever, right?
	But they're already kind of inconvenient.
	And you are listening to, well, you're listening to one of my podcasts.
	I mean, what else would you be listening to?
	I mean, theoretically, you could be, but let's be realistic.
	So you pick up this person who's wet and smelly and drippy and all of that.
	And you're doing them a favor by giving them a lift for the next hour.
	Now, if they reach over and turn off the podcast and start playing their own music, would you have much patience with that?
	Not really.
	No, because you're already doing a favor.
	They're already kind of inconvenient, so they better not make any other impositions.
	Yes.
	Right.
	So telling people that they're inconvenient and annoying to some degree minimizes their capacity to negotiate for what they want.
	Because even if he were to say, I don't like listening to this guy with the weird accent.
	I want to listen to something else.
	If it's your husband who's like, well, I don't want to listen to this, can we listen to something else?
	You'd probably say, well, fine.
	But if it's someone you've picked up who's been kind of abrasive and so on, and they're like, well, I want to listen to this, I want to listen to something else, you'd be like, no, I'm already doing you a favor, don't, you know, let's not push it, right?
	Yes.
	So that's the analogy, that's why they make you feel like you're inconvenient, so you don't make any demands.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	Okay.
	Sorry, there was something else you were going to say?
	No, I just...
	It makes a lot of sense.
	And also, the hedonist thing also makes sense in the way they reacted in a lot of situations, yes.
	And you have two siblings?
	One sister.
	One sister.
	Oh yeah, and then some, what do you call them, extra siblings, right?
	Okay, so you have one sister, older or younger?
	Younger, three years younger.
	Now, how did things go between you and your parents on the island when you hit your teenage years?
	Well, we kind of took different directions, me and my sisters.
	I think I tried first to do things just right, like to the point where I were cleaning down the house and serving breakfast to my parents, type of perfect.
	How old were you at this point?
	I did that for years.
	It started, I think, I must have been 14 maybe when it started.
	Oh, okay.
	But at the point where I was maybe...
	I must have been 17 maybe.
	I started not doing it and then...
	I figured out that if they're going to be angry with me either way, Even if I serve breakfast and clean the house and stuff, then what's the point?
	You try to please them so they'll be happy, and once you realize you can't please them and they won't be happy, you stop trying to please them.
	But I also started trying to criticize them.
	He didn't take criticism, right?
	No, I can't.
	Because criticism is unpleasant and they live for pleasure, right?
	Yeah, but my sister took kind of the other turn, or maybe she just followed in my footsteps and I took another turn when I figured out it didn't work to be perfect.
	So she started kind of trying to be perfect instead and got really like I think she got panicked when I started criticizing my parents, because she was like, do not break the peace.
	Well, she's also younger and more vulnerable, so if your parents get up, she might be in more trouble, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	And dating in your teens?
	Uh...
	Very little, but I dated one guy, I think.
	What do you mean you think?
	Was he in a blender?
	Did you drink him?
	What do you mean you think?
	Okay, I did date a guy when I was 15. I'm not going to catch you out here.
	I'm not trying to get you in trouble.
	I'm just, you know, I don't know what that means.
	No, no, no.
	I understand.
	I dated a guy when I was around 15, 16, and then we broke up.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Did your parents know of this relationship?
	Did they approve, disapprove?
	Did they give you any advice?
	No.
	Well, they approved, and my father told me to be careful and use, like, sexual...
	Oh, birth control, yeah.
	Yeah, birth control.
	Though I wasn't ready for that type of thing, so I just...
	I didn't start with that until I met my husband, so, yeah.
	Okay, got it.
	Alright.
	And then into your 20s, what happened?
	Well, I was off on like one year boarding school in another city at 18 years old.
	No, 19. 19 years old.
	Okay.
	So, wait, is that university?
	No, it's kind of a A one-year study while living at the university.
	It's not the university, it's like a free year, but you study something that can help you get points to get into university.
	Anyway, because I lived away from my parents, I I realized that it was a lot more pleasant not getting yelled at so much.
	But I moved home after that year.
	And then that was quite a shock because it was like...
	I don't like at home.
	I didn't realize this.
	This is weird.
	I only had the feeling that I want to live now.
	And at the school where I lived for one year, I met my husband.
	And so I only lived a half year home after that.
	And then My husband and I started dating and then I moved in with him.
	Got it.
	So, I already kind of felt that something was off, but I didn't know for sure.
	And then my husband started showing me your podcast.
	And at first, it felt very uncomfortable listening to your shows.
	But first I was like, okay, but my husband seems, or boyfriend at the time, seems like he has a lot of confidence.
	He seems that it's like he knows where he's going and what he talks about.
	So I wanted to kind of listen to what he was interested in.
	First, just to learn more about him and And then what you said makes sense.
	And I figured out for like every few episodes we heard, it was like, oh wait, that happened to me.
	Wait, that happened to me.
	What?
	And I would say that that saved my life.
	Gosh, I'm glad to hear that.
	How did it save your life?
	Well...
	Things started making sense.
	Because I had lived in like, you know, things just happen kind of world.
	And then it was like, okay, I don't know how to explain it, but it was more like...
	I don't know.
	I realized things with my parents that I hadn't realized.
	I thought up until when I met my husband that it was normal to have seven divorces.
	I thought that was just normal.
	Well, hang on.
	You must have met people that come from this background?
	Yeah, but I also had met other people that also had Seven or eight divorces, so I really thought that it was at least within the normal range.
	Right, right, okay.
	And how was your relationship with your parents going into your 20s?
	It wasn't too good.
	I remember I had to tell my mom that I couldn't take care of her.
	I had to build my own life.
	Why did she need you to take care of her?
	I don't know.
	She just got mentally ill and couldn't work and didn't want to do all the housework alone.
	Sorry, what do you mean she got mentally ill?
	What happened?
	I don't remember, to be honest.
	Roughly.
	I mean, was it anxiety, depression, paranoia?
	I mean, what happened?
	I think more of a depression kind of thing.
	Like, she didn't have much energy and I know that she took antidepressive medicine, so I think that was the case.
	But, yeah, just She was tired.
	She couldn't work.
	And what was her relationship with your father or other men at this point?
	Was she single?
	Yeah, she was single.
	She lived off of state care.
	Oh, God.
	Or government care.
	So she was on, like, disability or welfare or?
	What's the difference?
	Oh, disability...
	Welfare is if you just can't pay your bills.
	Disability is if you have an injury or a physical or mental issue.
	Okay, I think then disability.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah.
	So, her life...
	And sorry, what was her...
	Was she in her 50s at this point?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, what had happened with her...
	Romantic relationships?
	She just wasn't dating at all?
	I think while this happened, first she was dating one man, and then they broke off.
	Or she broke up with him.
	And then she had the down period, and then she got together with my father after I had moved out.
	Okay, and then that's when they got together, and what happened to take them apart?
	What did you say?
	What happened that they broke up?
	Do you know?
	When my mom broke up with my stepfather at the time.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like she ended up alone, right?
	So she was in a relationship, she ended up alone, and what happened that she ended up alone?
	Well, she got really sad, but I don't really know.
	Okay, no, that's fine.
	I don't remember too well, sorry.
	I mean, usually that's the end result of hedonism, is you run out of happiness.
	I mean, the only way to have sustainable happiness is to be morally good.
	And so hedonism, well, it doesn't give you sustainable happiness.
	No.
	Because it's selfish.
	And generally...
	We end up with as much happiness in the long run as we create in others, right?
	I mean, this is a bit, you know, and in the end the love we take, right?
	So we end up with happiness as a whole based on how much happiness we bring to others.
	And if we're just selfish, then we just run out of happiness.
	I mean, you get more happiness in the short run.
	It's like a drug, right?
	You get more happiness in the short run and you get less happiness in the long run.
	Okay, so she ran out of happiness.
	And then the only solution to that would be to admit her selfishness and start doing some stuff to live for others, but I'm sure that never even crossed her mind, right?
	No.
	No.
	What happened was that she tried to, I think, make...
	My sister and I live for her, kind of.
	But that's part of the more selfishness, right?
	Just more selfishness is the solution.
	And it's like, nope, that's just going to make you more unhappy.
	Yeah.
	And that was a whole other big deal because my sister was always out of the house and I had to tell my mom that I also have a life.
	I can't be home taking care of her all the time.
	And then, yeah, well, she had like another of this.
	Anger attacks, I would say, and locked herself up.
	And so I went to my father and my father got scared because of how sad I was.
	Sorry, you said another one of these anger attacks.
	I'm not sure.
	Have we talked about those before?
	I don't remember that.
	No, we haven't really.
	Let's pretend I don't know what you're talking about when I don't know what you're talking about.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	If you can give me a favor.
	No, throughout my childhood she would have anger attacks where if someone did something she didn't like, she suddenly just burst into yelling and stamping and screaming.
	She was a bully?
	Yeah, basically.
	And that happened all the time.
	So people did something she didn't like and she yelled at them?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so that's being a bully, isn't it?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay, I just wanted to know if there was something more complicated that I wasn't aware of.
	She's having a tantrum because she's not getting her way.
	Yeah, yeah, basically, yes.
	Okay, so she bullies and so your father gets involved, is that right?
	Yeah, but this is late 20s.
	How long ago was this?
	Five years, I think.
	No, six years.
	something like that um no but but uh so uh when i was when i was four years old when i was a toddler and my mom got very depressed and was uh she got suicidal So she was put in an asylum for suicidal people-ish.
	Sorry, you've got to not laugh about this stuff.
	I know it's a little bit disconcerting when you're talking about your mother being institutionalized for suicidality.
	The giggles are a bit disconcerting.
	But sorry, go ahead.
	Sorry.
	No, so...
	And when I was in my 20s and this got a whole thing where I had to tell my mom that I couldn't take care of her, then she had like an anger episode or something where she locked herself up in the house and I was really...
	Sad and angry at her and started crying when I came to my dad.
	So she locked herself up in the house and what does that mean?
	So she just wouldn't let anyone in?
	Was she threatening suicide or what happened?
	No, no, no.
	The reason why I mentioned the suicide thing is because my father chose not to comfort me but instead left to check on her.
	Because I think he was worried that she would be suicidal again.
	Even though they weren't dating at the time.
	Okay, so he was concerned that she would be suicidal.
	Was your mother a drinker or a drug user?
	No, not really.
	Sorry, not really?
	I mean, you meant social drinker kind of thing, right?
	She didn't drink.
	She couldn't handle alcohol.
	Yeah.
	Because she had like a gluten intolerance.
	Okay, got it.
	But she took a lot of like pain relief medicine every day.
	Like opioids?
	Or like aspirin?
	I mean how pain relief can be.
	No, I think aspirin type of.
	But a lot of it.
	But I don't know if it was like No, I don't know her health story that well.
	Okay.
	But to me it doesn't seem right that you have pain in your body every day and taking pills and not going to the doctor with it.
	So I just, yeah.
	And do you know if she had any kind of injury or something like that?
	No, I think...
	She had kind of a sore neck, but that was normal for her.
	Okay.
	Or, yeah.
	But you didn't have arthritis or anything that you know of that might be sort of back issues?
	No, not that I know of.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	And so, this was about five years ago that she locked herself in the house, or was it longer?
	Five years ago.
	Five years ago.
	And how long did she stay locked in the house for?
	Well, not too long, because my father broke into the house.
	Ah, okay.
	Yeah, so, but she was still dating the other man, and then she and my father got in love, and then, yeah, I don't know what happened.
	Oh, so she and your dad got back together?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah, and got married, but then broke up again.
	Oh, over the past, like over that five-year period?
	Yeah.
	Alright.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, that was just, but that was kind of the moment that I figured out that I don't want to stay at home there anymore.
	But on the plus side, at least your dad was going to take care of your mom at this point, right?
	Yeah.
	But I don't I didn't like it.
	I don't like when my mom and my dad are together because they kind of go together against me and my sister and especially against me that every time that they have been together have been like oh telling me like oh you're so You're annoying.
	You're making it hard for us.
	You're so different than other kids.
	Books about raising children doesn't work on you.
	All this stuff.
	It's been better for me when they have been separated.
	They have still agreed that I'm weird and different, but they don't...
	But isn't it, I mean, if the people who've been married and divorced seven times are calling you weird, isn't that a compliment?
	Well, yeah.
	Like if the certain people are saying you're weird, that's like a good thing, isn't it?
	Yeah, I would think so.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So...
	What has happened since that sort of five-year period?
	So how long did they stay together before breaking up again?
	One and a half year, I think.
	All right.
	And so, yeah, what happened?
	Well, four years ago now, or three years, I think.
	Three and a half.
	I broke the contact with both of them.
	Sorry, three and a half?
	Three and a half years.
	Okay, and what happened there?
	Was there something in particular that happened?
	No, it was more like...
	Prior to that though, when they were getting married and when I was introduced to your podcast through my husband, I started talking to them about that I would like a positive relationship or maybe non-relationship with them.
	So we had kind of talked through or I had tried to talk to them about my childhood and That I didn't approve of their choices of how to live and how to treat me and my sister.
	At first they were like...
	Well, first they were like, you're being unfair.
	We've done our best.
	How can you say this to us?
	Type of reaction.
	And then after a little while, it was more...
	Or actually, I think after I broke contact with them, it started to be more like...
	Because my mom would show up at the door and be like, You are right, I shouldn't have had kids, I'm a terrible mom, kind of reaction.
	Oh, so she's back to where she started, which is, you're the problem, and she is the victim, and you shouldn't have been born.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So she's learned nothing in 30 years.
	Yes.
	And my father didn't really bother me that much, but then...
	He has kind of sent a letter, and then I ended up working in kindergarten.
	The thing is that when I was maybe 16 or 7 years old, I was...
	Babysitting, and I shake the child.
	And that's fine.
	I mean, that's tragic, of course, because you were talking about some of the aggression that you experienced from your parents was in the form of shaking, right?
	You said of the backseat and shaking and so on, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And so, I... A combination of that and people around me saying you're so good with kids, although I obviously wasn't.
	I started working in kindergartens trying to learn how to act around kids and to be good to kids and learn that and then when I was introduced to your show I started trying out like no like no physical no you don't you don't pull toys from kids you don't
	I stopped doing all of that, even though other kindergartners were doing that.
	But I just figured out that I will not do it.
	But I think also some of it might have been fair to get yelled at from kids.
	Buses at work, but still, I figured I couldn't do that.
	I didn't want to do that.
	Raising my voice at kids, I tried out your philosophy in the kindergarten.
	But it also kind of ended up with the other that worked in the kindergartens that I worked in.
	I would say like, oh, you're too soft on the kids.
	You have to raise your voice sometimes.
	You can't just let them do whatever they want.
	But then again, if we were going to dress up, the kids to go outside or change diaper or anything, they would always ask for me.
	So I don't know.
	The point is that I started...
	The kids would ask for me, yes.
	Sure, yeah, yeah.
	Um, but I also didn't think that I was, um, um, wanted that much.
	Um, so I only, I didn't apply for any job that was like, um, just like, um, when a person gets sick and you get their job and then when they come back, you search for another job.
	Yeah.
	Temporary worker.
	Yeah.
	Temporary works.
	And then I figured out I would...
	And then after that, I tried to study dance.
	So I got into a dance school, but it was...
	Hang on, what age were you here?
	21. Okay, got it.
	Sorry, I thought we were still five years ago.
	Okay, got it.
	Yeah, no, so...
	Yeah, four years ago.
	Four years ago, okay.
	Four and a half.
	Okay, got it.
	I figured out that it was a student loan to pay for the dance school.
	It was kind of a bad choice at my side, but after I had started there and paid a lot of I figured out that, first of all, if you're going to work with that in this country, you have to travel a lot.
	So you can't really have a family.
	And also, I liked how to teach dance better than the dance itself.
	So I ended up quitting.
	The plan then that I and my husband made was that I would work and then when he was finished with his studies, he would work and then we would have kids.
	And then I would stop working and be a stay-at-home mom.
	So I quit.
	That school and started working in kindergartens again because I wanted to be better with kids.
	I wanted to learn everything I could about communications with kids.
	I didn't want to repeat what my parents or how they talked to me.
	And then I figured out that it was like...
	It was like a moment where I was like, what is this?
	If you're just honest and you just don't use any physical or verbal restraining, then it's super easy.
	It's super easy.
	And I remember coming home to my mom, telling her that, I have learned something really important.
	There's always a reason that children cry.
	And you can fix everything.
	And then my mom would say something like, that is not true!
	Kids can cry for selfish reasons and there's never always a reason.
	And I was shocked because I had seen this and experienced this and I was 100% sure.
	So I just dropped the topic.
	But yeah, so I worked in kindergartens and then after a while I decided to try to get a lasting job.
	But then I ended up in a really bad kindergarten where there was even an adult who pushed kids and I reported it and it was like, no, we don't need to speak about this.
	And then I quit the job and tried to find another job.
	But then I ended up in a place where I stayed too long.
	It was quite the bad work environment too.
	It's called a family kindergarten.
	It's where you have two adults and eight kids between zero and three years old.
	And you do everything you would do in the family.
	You cook and you clean and You watch all the kids and that's it's quite hard when you have eight zero to three years old and only two adults and then the one that I was supposed to start working with where I started there she was highly pregnant and started like I had to work with how would you say it in English
	like Someone who worked there temporarily, but they couldn't get one, so they had people on shift.
	Okay.
	And then they couldn't get more people on shift, so they got someone from a government program who tried to learn Norwegian.
	I'm so sorry.
	I want to make sure that we get to the major issues and the detailed resume.
	I'm not sure where it's leading us, so if you can help me understand that, I would appreciate that.
	Yeah, no, sorry.
	I'm just trying to describe that it was a bad working environment.
	It was really stressful.
	No, no, but I'm trying to get to what happened with your parents.
	Yes.
	Sorry, yeah.
	Well, sorry, I think I misunderstood.
	I thought you meant kind of everything.
	But yes, with my parents, I broke off contact three and a half years ago.
	And my mom came one time out the door and went back to when we were kids kind of reactions.
	Which is funny because she's repeatedly wished that you weren't around.
	And then when you're not around, she gets really upset.
	And then also she said that it wasn't her fault everything she had done because now she had gone and gotten herself a diagnosis that meant that it was okay that she treated us the way that she did.
	Oh, so she got some diagnosis of mental dysfunction that meant she was not responsible for any of her behavior, right?
	Yeah, yes, basically.
	And so with my father, when I broke off contact with him, I didn't really hear anything.
	And that's why I picked up the work, because at the end of the...
	Bad job where I was in one and a half year while not having contact with my parents.
	I had colleagues that were like, oh, you should have contact with their parents and one should forgive.
	This was a Christian thing, right?
	No, these colleagues weren't Christian.
	They just meant that one should respect one's parents.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And so eventually I took contact with my father.
	And so I don't know what I really wanted to accomplish.
	I think I was getting married at the time and afterwards I felt like maybe...
	Maybe we could try this again, and then it didn't really work out.
	My father is fine as long as he agrees, but if he doesn't agree, it's a huge problem.
	I tried to talk to him about specific things, and For example, a time where he locked my sister in the bathroom because she had a nightmare and he didn't want to help her.
	And he was like, no, I have never done something like that.
	And are you sure you're not delusional?
	And then I just thought that, okay, this is not going to work out.
	And at the same time, I kind of got into burnout.
	Oh, at the daycare?
	Yeah, at the decor.
	I tried switching jobs, but it was at the point where just a short trip to the store was exhausting.
	But I didn't do the best life choices.
	I put my dad back in my life, and I changed the job, and I got married, and I moved all at the same time.
	And I was exhausted from before.
	And how long is your dad back in your life?
	Half a year.
	Okay.
	Yeah, half a year.
	And then?
	Um...
	After?
	So this was three years ago, if I remember this rightly.
	And since then, you haven't been in contact with your parents, you've been married, and now you're pregnant.
	And help me understand, what is going on in your mind that you think or feel that it might be worth getting back in touch with your parents?
	You said your father sent you a letter and your mother came by.
	Has there been any other contact from them?
	Well, I have gotten a couple of more letters from my father.
	And do you read them?
	Yes.
	And where do you read them?
	I don't know.
	I don't know whether you should or shouldn't.
	I'm just curious.
	No.
	I just think that Sometimes it's just in case, like I don't want to, in case it says I'm coming, visiting in today's or something.
	And sometimes it's more, I don't know if it's for fun, if that is describing it right, but more like reading it with my husband and like laughing about it and saying, no, no, no, come on, come on, you can't laugh about it.
	No, not really.
	There's nothing funny about any of this, right?
	No, not really, no.
	So why do you read them?
	I mean, you could hand it to your husband, right?
	And you could have him read the letter and tell you if there's anything important.
	Yeah, yeah, I could do that.
	But you don't do that?
	No.
	Why do you read the letters?
	I don't know.
	No, no, don't write this with me, young lady.
	You've heard enough of these call-in shows to know that don't work.
	Why do you read the letters?
	If you're worried about him coming over, you could have your husband check the letter and shred it, right?
	I think...
	Are you punishing yourself with hope?
	Yeah.
	I think so.
	So what do you hope for?
	He's going to grow a whole new heart.
	Are you hoping this Grinch thing, his heart's going to grow three sizes?
	Oh, I've realized everything.
	I've gone to therapy.
	I'm going to be a great dad.
	I'm so sorry.
	Is it that?
	Is that what you're hoping for?
	I think so.
	Well, no.
	I think so isn't much of an answer because that's easily deniable later, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, why do you open, like, let me ask you this another way.
	Yeah.
	What would be the feeling if you just threw the letter out, rather than reading it?
	Again, I don't know whether you should or shouldn't, but what's the feeling if you just say, no, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna read this?
	I think I would feel lonely.
	You would feel what?
	Lonely.
	Ah, interesting.
	Okay, go on.
	No, it's just I haven't been working the last years, two last years, and so I'm not like...
	Oh, are you back on the...
	No, on the island you had kids around, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you weren't isolated as a kid.
	So you haven't been working for two years, and so if you don't read the letter, you'll feel lonely, and help me understand that?
	I just...
	I'm not sure, but I think it's like...
	That's hard to say.
	I don't know.
	Okay, so I still feel like I don't know if other people like me.
	So if I 100% reject my parents, it's like...
	I have my husband, but...
	But what does he matter?
	I mean, come on, let's be realistic.
	He's the only love of my life and the father of my child and the person who married me.
	But what about the person who neglected and abused me?
	I mean, what about that guy?
	Yeah, that's messed up.
	No, I know.
	I'm not going to say it's messed up at all, right?
	Because we have to remain curious, right?
	Yes, yes.
	The guy who convinced me that people don't like me, I'm going to keep reading his letters.
	So how many has he sent to you over the last couple of years?
	Not too many, I think.
	Four or five?
	All right.
	Now, when you do read these, is there anything authentic, true, honest, and taking of responsibility in there?
	No.
	It's all manipulation, isn't it?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, you think that you have rejected your parents, is that right?
	Yes.
	I'm not sure I understand why you would think that.
	Well, um...
	I mean, you were honest with them.
	Yes.
	And they rejected you.
	Yes.
	You simply accepted their rejection.
	So you said, okay, what if I stop lying in this relationship?
	And I don't mean lying from a moral standpoint.
	I mean just not, what if I start telling the truth?
	What if I start telling the actual real truth in this relationship, right?
	That was your experiment, if I understand this correctly.
	Yes, that's true, yeah.
	So what if I'm actually myself?
	What if I talk to these people who claim to love me and tell them what I actually think and feel, right?
	Yes, yes.
	Now, how did your parents react when you finally showed up in the relationship and told them what you think and feel for real, for real?
	What did your parents do?
	Well, they didn't accept it.
	They rejected you.
	Yeah.
	You're wrong.
	You're crazy.
	I have a diagnosis.
	You're making it up.
	That never happened.
	We did the best we could.
	Right?
	They rejected you!
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Right?
	Yes, that's true.
	It's like some woman finally takes off her clothes on her wedding night and the man runs screaming out the window and she says, I rejected him!
	Yeah.
	Right?
	You just told them who you were, what you actually thought and felt.
	Yes.
	What do you mean you rejected them?
	They rejected you.
	Yeah.
	I mean, tell me if I've misunderstood something.
	I'm obviously eager to be corrected.
	No, it's no misunderstanding.
	It's just they send these letters with...
	They have had five years or three years, depending on how you count it, they've had years to listen to you.
	Yes.
	Right?
	Yes.
	You don't mind if I swear a little bit, do you?
	I don't mind.
	Okay, just cover your fetus's ears.
	Letters, my friend, are bullshit.
	Letters are manipulative bullshit.
	The problem with your parents, if I understand it correctly, is they just don't listen.
	Now, how much listening is there in a letter?
	Not a lot.
	If someone in my life says to me, Steph, the problem is you just don't listen to me and I write them a ten-page letter, am I listening?
	No.
	No, I'm manipulating.
	No.
	What you need is for your parents to call you up and say, I've really been thinking about what you said.
	It's been burned in my brain.
	And I have been talking about this with your mother.
	I've been talking about this with our friends.
	I've checked old family photos and archives.
	I kept a diary at one point.
	And I've gone to therapy.
	And I've realized you were trying to be honest with me.
	And I threw you out the window.
	I didn't even slow down the bus.
	I just threw you out the window.
	I am so sorry.
	I want you...
	Please, if you can, to tell me everything that happened for you as a child.
	I'll come for the weekend, I will sit, I will make you tea, I will shut up, and I will just listen and absorb because I really, really want to understand your experience of my parenting.
	Right?
	Yeah, yes.
	That's the need to listen.
	Letters are bullshit.
	Because letters are talking and not listening.
	There's no way for you to have any input in a lesser.
	A letter is a monologue.
	Yep.
	And they don't even need to dialogue.
	They need to shut the hell up and listen.
	A letter is them just talking and talking and talking, and you're saying, I never feel heard in this relationship, and so they write you long-ass letters, or your dad writes you long-ass letters, Where you can't say anything and he gets to dominate the conversation because it's all his words.
	So how is he not exactly reproducing the basic issue you have with your parents?
	Well, no, I don't know.
	My wife says to me, you don't listen.
	And I say, okay, I'm going to solve that.
	I need you to sit down, not say a word, and I'm going to talk for two hours.
	Yes.
	Would I have solved the problem or would I have just confirmed her complaint?
	Confirmed the complaint.
	Letters in conflict are bullshit.
	Letters are narcissistic.
	Letters are selfish.
	Letters are, I'm only going to talk.
	You can't have a response.
	No.
	All letters are is a monologue from a selfish heart.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	And we've all been on the receiving end of those letters.
	Oh, they're horrible.
	Yes.
	I don't read them myself.
	I don't have anything to do with those letters.
	I'm just like, hey, there's a happy shredder.
	Yeah.
	So, I'm still trying to understand why you think you've rejected your parents.
	You reached out to them with all honesty and openness.
	To tell them what you think and feel.
	And what did they do?
	They did reject it.
	They rejected you?
	Yep.
	They rejected you.
	And I'm really sorry for that.
	I think that's...
	Really, it's terribly sad.
	It's incredibly clarifying.
	Yes.
	But...
	Do people who tell you, well, you've got to respect and forgive and get back together, do they understand that your parents have rejected you?
	I don't think so, no.
	I mean, honestly, if my mother were to call me up tomorrow...
	I haven't spoken to her in like 25 years, right?
	But if my mother were to call me up tomorrow and were to say, I've gone to therapy before I die, I want to explain things, I've thought about things, I've listened to your show, ah, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, I would say, bring it on.
	Yes.
	So she has spent, in a sense, almost 58 years rejecting me.
	I just stopped pretending she didn't.
	I stopped rejecting myself.
	And this is really, really important.
	Which is not to say the other stuff we've been talking about.
	I always feel this is really important.
	The rest of it's nonsense.
	This is really important, right?
	But no, I just stopped.
	I didn't reject my mother.
	I just stopped rejecting myself around my mother.
	If that makes sense.
	I just stopped self-erasing around my mother.
	I didn't reject her.
	I just stopped erasing myself around my mother.
	And I said, okay, I'm not in a relationship if I'm just smiling and nodding and being silent and never talking about what I actually think and feel.
	That is harmful to me.
	And it's not a relationship.
	A relationship is when there's two people, right?
	Yes.
	So, I simply said, I'm going to stop projecting myself around my mother, and I'm going to be honest.
	Because when I was a kid, of course, what did society tell me to do?
	Did it tell me to lie?
	No.
	It told me to be honest.
	What did my mother say when I was a kid and she wanted information from me?
	She'd say, I want the truth, right?
	Give me the truth.
	Tell me the truth.
	Don't lie.
	Be honest.
	I'm sure you heard some similar things, right?
	Yes, I didn't understand that my parents said, tell me the truth.
	Well, when you were a kid, did your parents encourage you to lie or to tell the truth?
	No, to tell the truth.
	There are very few more unhappy people than moralists.
	Yeah.
	There are very few more unhappy people than moralists end up when people apply the morals they instructed them on, right?
	So I was told, tell the truth.
	I was also told, follow the science, but not that science, apparently.
	Right, so I was told to tell the truth.
	My mother said, tell the truth.
	My mother said, be honest, right?
	My mother did not say, I want you to wake up every morning, self-erase, and lie through your teeth at me.
	She said, tell the truth.
	Okay, so I finally listened to her and stopped lying.
	Yes.
	And as it turns out, she doesn't like me when I tell the truth.
	She only likes me when I'm not there in spirit, but I'm sitting around like a flesh bag of compliant emptiness.
	Yeah.
	So my mother doesn't mind me as a slave, but doesn't like me as a person.
	Now, if my mother doesn't like me as a person, I guess I have...
	Thank you.
	Two choices.
	One is that, well, it turns out she doesn't like me because I'm honest and it makes her feel bad when I tell her what I think and feel.
	So she doesn't like honesty.
	Or I can say, well, my mother is such a great person and she doesn't like me because I'm a terrible person, I'm a bad person, I'm an ungrateful person, I'm a disrespectful person, I'm a...
	right?
	I don't repay back all of the sacrifices she made.
	I'm a bad person, right?
	But then I have the problem of saying, okay, well, let's say that my mother's right, and I'm just a really, really bad person.
	Well, who raised me?
	Who raised me?
	My mother never gets off the hook, and parents never get off the hook.
	If your parents reject you for being honest, it's either because they're bad people who hate the truth, Or they somehow raised a really mean, nasty, ungrateful whelp of a child, in which case they were bad parents.
	Yes, yes.
	So there's no way...
	That they can blame the child and abstract themselves from their parenting.
	Because your parents say give me special consideration because we're your parents.
	We're not just some strangers you meet.
	We're not just people you happen to grow up with in the neighborhood.
	You give us Extra special olive oil on the side and anchovy dressing on top.
	You give us extra special consideration because we're your parents and we raised you and we sacrificed and we were in charge and we instructed you and we gave you morals and taught you everything you know.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	So then, you can't blame me for being a bad person.
	Therefore, the only reason you dislike me is because I'm a good person, and you don't like that.
	And you ignored me, and you scolded me, and you failed to instruct me, and you lived selfishly, and you don't like How you were as a parent,
	and you want me to pretend that you were someone other than who you were, and you want me to pretend that I did not experience what I experienced, and you want me to forgive and forgive and forgive, when one of the main problems I have is that you didn't forgive me for anything.
	Your parents didn't forgive you for being different.
	Your parents didn't forgive you for disagreeing with them.
	Your mother wouldn't even forgive you for wanting a sleepover.
	So if there's forgiveness to be made, if there's forgiveness to be acted upon, and I used to say this back in the day, say, oh, you need to forgive your mother.
	It's like, well, yes, but I didn't beat my mother.
	I didn't scream abuse at my mother.
	So my mother hurt me because she failed to forgive me.
	So if you feel that forgiveness is a virtue, then you should get in touch with my mother, and you should tell her that she was bad for not forgiving me, which gave her the excuse to assault me.
	And I'm sorry, I'm not trying to make this about me.
	Obviously, this is really about where you are, right?
	Yeah, no, I understand.
	If people say, forgiveness is a virtue, well, did your parents forgive you for being different?
	Did they forgive you for running around?
	Did they forgive you for even being born?
	Not really.
	Sorry, I didn't mean to laugh.
	No, they didn't forgive you for any of that.
	So, if the people say to you, well, you need to forgive your parents, you say, oh, so forgiveness is a real value, right?
	You really think that forgiveness is important, and people who fail to forgive need to apologize or make restitution.
	Well, then you should talk to my parents.
	I'm sure you can find them.
	You can go and talk to my parents and tell them that they need to forgive me.
	And they should have forgiven me for the last couple of decades.
	And they should also forgive me because they've been punishing me for telling the truth.
	When I told the truth, they gaslit me, they lied, they projected, they manipulated, they failed to take any responsibility, and they called me crazy.
	Yes.
	So they need to forgive me for telling the truth.
	They needed to forgive me for running in the house.
	They needed to forgive me for having a lot of energy.
	They needed to forgive me for wanting a sleepover.
	They needed to forgive me for all of those things which they failed to do.
	And that's why they punished me.
	So if you care so much about forgiveness and people who fail to forgive and the need to forgive, then you need to talk to my parents because the reason we're in this mess is they failed to forgive me for 30 fucking years.
	They have failed to forgive me for 30 fucking years.
	I just gave up on trying to find their forgiveness.
	So, if forgiveness is a value and failing to forgive is a problem, go talk to my parents.
	But they won't do that, will they?
	The people who are telling you to forgive, what will they do?
	Why won't they do that?
	What would they say?
	Well, if I told them what you said now, I think they would say, no, it's a family matter or something.
	No, they would say, I think, I mean, I'm not sure exactly what that would mean in terms of actions, but they would say, well, clearly they have a problem with forgiveness, so you need to be the bigger person.
	Yeah, yeah, that's true.
	Right?
	And then I would say, oh, so overcoming an inability to forgive is really, really important.
	Right?
	So, again, you have to go to my parents, because they have not overcome their inability to forgive.
	Yes.
	So you need to go to my parents, and they have an infinitely bigger problem with a lack of forgiveness than I do.
	So why are you talking to me, you cowards?
	Yes.
	If my parents, and logically I've proven that my parents have an infinitely bigger problem with forgiveness than I do, so if forgiveness is so important to you, why are you talking to me?
	Yes.
	If a man beats his son because he fails to forgive his son and beats his son for 20 years, then if forgiveness is a virtue and a value, you should go and talk to the man who beats his son, not to the son who's managed to get away.
	But you won't do that.
	Because you are using forgiveness as a way to bully the victims.
	You are not going to the people who've done the aggression.
	You are going to their victims.
	Because you're a coward.
	And you don't believe in forgiveness at all.
	But you believe in twisting a little knife into the hearts of the victims to make them feel bad for having any reasonable fucking boundaries with corrupt people.
	You realize that I'm vulnerable and I'm taking a stand against corruption.
	And lying and immorality and gaslighting.
	I'm taking a stand against it, and rather than stand with me against corruption, you are demanding that I forgive.
	And you don't care about forgiveness at all, otherwise you'd be talking to my parents, not me.
	You are just standing with the bad guys and twisting the knife in the hearts of the good guys.
	And that is utterly, utterly, utterly contemptible.
	Yes.
	I can't tell you how little patience I have for people who make these kinds of moral claims about forgiveness and never confront the people who have caused massive harm in children by failing to forgive those children.
	I get it.
	Yes.
	Sorry, I interrupted you twice.
	My apologies.
	Go ahead.
	No, no, it's fine.
	It's fine.
	Yeah, I get it.
	I get it.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	Also, also, If somebody says to me, you need to forgive your mother, and they don't talk to my mother about her failure to forgive me, I'll say, well, I'm sure you'll forgive me for failing to forgive my mother.
	I mean, you can forgive my mother for beating me when I was a child, so you'll have no problem forgiving me if I fail to forgive my mother.
	You'll just forgive me, because forgiveness is super important, right?
	So you will continue to love me.
	It will have no impact on our relationship if I don't forgive my mother.
	So it's not really much of a consideration because you're going to forgive me.
	Yes.
	Can you forgive me for failing to forgive my mother?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Well, then I appreciate your advice, but I'm going to continue with the plan that I have and you are going to forgive me.
	So it doesn't really have much effect on our relationship, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Yeah, that's true.
	And you are Christian, is that correct?
	That's correct, yes.
	Right.
	So this hyper-focus on appeasing evil.
	Because when you have a demand that the victim forgive the abuser, and you have no demand that the abuser forgive the victim, then you're siding with corruption.
	Yes.
	And that is not Christianity as far as I understand it.
	No.
	So God will forgive you and Jesus will forgive you under what conditions?
	What do you have to do?
	Forgive as well, but not really.
	What does God and Jesus, what do they require you to do in order to gain forgiveness?
	Nothing.
	No, you have to.
	Sorry.
	Come on, you know this one!
	What do you have to do to gain forgiveness?
	You must repent.
	Yeah.
	Is that fair?
	Yes, that's fair.
	You must repent.
	In order, if you've murdered some guy, and let's say, you know it's 100%, you're on video, but you still deny it and you still say it didn't happen and you won't take any responsibility, do you ever get let out of prison?
	No, because you're not repenting, right?
	Yes.
	So, God says, all can be forgiven, almost all, depends, like, there's mortal and venal sins, right?
	Yes.
	God says, all can be forgiven, but first, you must take ownership of your actions, you must admit the truth, and you must repent.
	Yes.
	Right?
	Yes.
	So, what they're asking you to do, if it's Christians who are asking you to forgive someone who does not repent, they're saying, well, we know better than Almighty God Himself.
	Almighty God says forgiveness must be earned through repentance, but you're demanding that I forgive in the absence of repentance, so you're calling God unjust and immoral.
	Like, that's a level of vanity?
	That is demonic.
	Yes.
	Almighty God has said, in order to be forgiven you must repent.
	So then you say, okay, so you should go to my parents and you should get them to earn my forgiveness through repentance.
	But asking me to forgive in the absence of repentance is asking me to do something unholy in the eyes of God.
	Yes.
	Now, what level of unbelievable arrogance does it take for a Christian to say, well, I know way better than God.
	I know far better than Jesus, the most perfect man who ever lived.
	I mean, they've just got it totally wrong, man.
	They just got it backwards.
	I, a mere mortal, know better than God himself.
	Yes.
	That's satanic pride.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Yes, we should forgive those.
	We should forgive those who repent.
	Yes.
	Now, that forgiveness, though, that doesn't mean that everything's fine.
	We should, right?
	But people who won't even repent, so the reason they don't let unrepentant criminals out of prison is they're very likely to recommit an offense.
	Yes.
	So, the reason that we don't keep unrepentant people in our lives, people who've done us great harm and won't even admit fault, is they're just going to do it again.
	And your father has confirmed that with his one-sided monologue, windbag manipulative letters, right?
	Yes.
	And has your mother taken a single shred of responsibility for the harm she did you as a child?
	No.
	No?
	She has not.
	No.
	So, the reason why...
	We don't let unrepentant people who've done us wrong back in our lives is that they will harm us again.
	Yes.
	And you don't help corrupt people by serving up yourself as a victim.
	No, that's true.
	Yeah, no.
	And then if we have people around us who keep harming us, And we keep forgiving them, we then fall prey to the sin of despair.
	In order to retain our optimism, virtue has to have some power in this world.
	Virtue is not just something to be kicked around and beaten up and laughed at and whipped and scolded and scolded.
	Virtue is something that's supposed to have some power in the world, and the power that virtue has Is to attempt to cure evil by not praising, supporting, and paying off with time, attention, resources, money, and mindset.
	We do not pay unrepentant, immoral people with our time, care, and attention because that's unjust towards the people who do actually earn our forgiveness.
	I'm sure that in your relationship with your husband, once in a while, one of you will say something Yes.
	It's upsetting to the other person.
	And what do you say?
	You forgive them?
	Well, you say, I'm so sorry.
	You're right.
	That was very thoughtless of me.
	I really do apologize, right?
	Yes, yes.
	And so then you say, okay, well, maybe we talk about it a little more, but that person has shown their repentance and thus has earned their forgiveness, right?
	Yes, that's true, yes.
	I mean, the unrepentant go to hell forever.
	All I'm doing is not calling them.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	And if they want to earn my forgiveness, they are more than welcome to.
	Just as if they want to earn God's forgiveness, they are more than welcome to.
	But if they sin and accumulate sin and refuse to repent, God himself will not save them from hell.
	Or limbo.
	Or they simply will not be resurrected or they won't get to heaven, whatever negative consequence.
	Yes.
	And who are we to say that we should do the opposite of almighty, all-good God and call ourself moral?
	That is corrupt and vainglorious beyond words.
	Yes.
	Why should I do the opposite of what God calls just?
	When God at least can see into the hearts of people, I can't.
	They could try and fake forgiveness with me.
	They cannot fake forgiveness with God, right?
	That's true, yes.
	Yeah.
	I just think it's terribly corrupt.
	And they should be saying, with regards to your parents, well...
	Your parents have now punished you for years for telling them the truth.
	They have failed to forgive you for telling them the truth when they in fact have asked you for decades to tell them the truth.
	So when you finally do tell them the truth, the fact that they punish you is because they're failing to forgive you for telling the truth.
	I'm going to go and talk to your parents and sort this out.
	Has anyone ever said that?
	No.
	Nope.
	So they don't care about forgiveness.
	They don't care about justice.
	They just want to stand on the knife handle in your side left by your parents and just jiggle it around a little bit, make you bleed a little more.
	Yes.
	It's sadism, not virtue.
	It's demonic, not angelic.
	It is corrupt, not based on the conscience.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	It makes sense.
	Also, I haven't thought that my parents have been rejecting me instead of me rejecting them.
	Oh, yeah.
	That also hit me.
	Yeah, I told the truth to everyone in my family, and they didn't like it, and they attacked, rejected, scorned.
	It's like, okay, well, so if you don't want me, that's fine, right?
	If you don't want me when I tell the truth, what's the point of me lying?
	Yeah.
	Sorry, you were going to say.
	No, no.
	I wasn't going to say anything.
	It makes sense.
	It makes sense.
	Yes.
	All right.
	So is there anything else I can help you with?
	How are we doing?
	I think we're doing good.
	I thought, but I don't want to start a whole new call-in.
	We've got another minute or two, if there's anything I can help you with at the end here.
	Believe it or not, I can be concise.
	Okay.
	No, I can't be, but I'll try.
	Okay.
	I just thought I would ask about anger, because as I told you previous in the conversation about that one time where I was shaking a child that I was babysitting,
	I I have not done anything like that since, but I have these moments, like for example, if the dishwasher don't want to close and I get really angry and smash it, I'm just scared that I will scare or hurt my children and I absolutely don't want to do that.
	Is there any danger?
	That's a possibility, or how do you make sure that that doesn't happen?
	Like, not scaring and not hurting your children.
	Right, right.
	Well, is it fair to say that it is frustration that is your major concern?
	Yes, that's fair to say, yes.
	Okay.
	So, frustration is a muscle that grows the more it has to be exercised.
	In other words, the more frustration we go through, the more susceptible we tend to be to frustration.
	So, the best way to not be frustrated with your children is to not have frustrating people in your life.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	I don't have anyone in my life who I'm fundamentally frustrated with.
	And it doesn't mean occasionally I won't be whatever, like some feedback or something mildly negative or whatever.
	And that happens in relationships as a whole.
	But I don't have, like if I have this sense that I'm beating my head against a brick wall, I don't have anything to do with that.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	Because frustration is a muscle.
	And if you keep getting frustrated, that muscle gets stronger and you'll find yourself getting frustrated with more and more.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	Now, your fundamental frustration and anger, I don't think, is towards your parents.
	I don't think so.
	So what is it to do with?
	Well...
	I... Mostly get frustrated at small things at home, which has to do with housework.
	But in the matter of persons in my life, I think especially now that I am pregnant, there are quite a few.
	Like, for example, I have a cousin, which when I broke off contact with my parents, she was like, it's okay, you will never lose me.
	But now that I'm pregnant, she's like, oh, you should rethink taking contact with your parents so you have someone to support you when you have kids.
	Mm-hmm.
	And so that's the frustrating part with people.
	Okay, and you feel that you're frustrated with your cousin?
	Yeah, or more than one cousin.
	Okay, so you feel you're frustrated with the people who are, in a sense, turning on you or to some degree betraying you in the conflict you have with your parents.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	But still, I feel more frustrated.
	With the small things in the house.
	I get that.
	I understand that.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Now, if you give me an example, one of them was trying to close the dishwasher, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you're trying to control something and you can't.
	Yes.
	And you get frustrated, right?
	Yes.
	Now, with regards to the dishwasher, if you can't close it and you try it a couple of times, what is the only solution?
	Well, the solution that will work is to figure out why it won't close and then fix it.
	So let's say there's a ladle that's jamming in the corner of the door.
	Well, you have to adjust the label, right?
	Yes.
	So when you're frustrated with the dishwasher, you're actually frustrated with yourself because it's you who've loaded the dishwasher.
	Yes.
	Now, you're not frustrated with your cousin.
	You're frustrated with your judgment of your cousin.
	Because you judged your cousin incorrectly.
	Now, what you need to do is figure out why you judged your cousin incorrectly.
	What did you miss that led you susceptible to this kind of betrayal from your cousin?
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, that makes sense.
	The problem is not the people in your life.
	The problem is with your judgment.
	And I don't mean this in a critical way.
	No, no, no.
	I get it.
	I get it.
	I like better children.
	You feel that you're frustrated at the dishwasher, but you're frustrated at yourself for not loading the dishwasher correctly.
	And the only way that you could not be frustrated with the dishwasher is to load it better, right?
	Yes.
	Now, I get frustrated at tech issues in my show sometimes, but I have chosen to work alone.
	I have chosen to not spend people's donation money on a big studio and a staff of five people to run the live streams, right?
	Yes.
	So if I just sit there and say, oh, I'm having this technical issue, well, it's like, okay, yes, but I have saved X hundreds of thousands of dollars by not having a giant studio.
	Yes, yes.
	So with regards to your cousins, so you get mad that your cousins have betrayed you, you get frustrated in that, And you try to get them to understand your perspective and they won't.
	Which is just like repeatedly trying to slam the dishwasher shut without adjusting its contents.
	The contents that need to be adjusted are the contents of your mind that had you be susceptible to a cousin or cousins who will betray you.
	Oh, sorry.
	I can't hear you now.
	Oh, can you hear me?
	Yeah, now I hear you.
	Now I can hear you.
	So, sorry, the frustration you have is not with the dishwasher, but in your loading of the dishwasher.
	Because if you load the dishwasher correctly, or in a way that the dishwasher can shut, then you don't have a problem with the dishwasher.
	So you think that the problem is with the dishwasher, but the problem is within your own mind and how you load the dishwasher.
	Or maybe your husband, right?
	Okay, yes.
	So, you're not frustrated with your cousin, you're frustrated at whatever judgment led you to be susceptible to this kind of betrayal.
	There have been people in the course of my public career as an intellectual who have betrayed me.
	Now, I can get frustrated with them and I can blame them, but who let them into my life?
	I did.
	It's my choice.
	And I have not...
	I've expressed some...
	I wouldn't say discontent.
	I've identified that a lot of people betrayed me over the course of my deplatforming.
	But I was the one who chose to have those people in my life.
	I was the one who made the choice to depend upon those people.
	And so it's my judgment that I'm frustrated with, not the other people.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, it makes sense.
	So if you can identify...
	Why you have people who will betray you in your life and what you've missed and how to seal up that hole in your armor, then your frustration has served its purpose.
	Okay.
	If I'm frustrated that my basement keeps leaking, water keeps coming into my basement, the purpose of my frustration is to find the hole and seal it up, right?
	And then I'm not frustrated anymore.
	Okay, so...
	Then frustration isn't dangerous.
	You just have to figure out why.
	Well, the purpose of frustration is to say you've got something wrong.
	Okay.
	So you need to sit down with your husband, I think, and say, okay, let's talk about my cousins.
	Let's talk about the people who've betrayed us, and let's try and figure out what we missed that we're in a situation of being betrayed.
	So I have not been betrayed for the last four years.
	Because the only way I can fundamentally be betrayed is if I betray myself and my own judge, my own standards.
	Okay, yes.
	So, as a public intellectual, to some degree, I threw my lot in with a bunch of people who were not philosophical, who were not moralists in that way.
	And so, the fact that they did not act in a very moral fashion when I was deplatformed is not that surprising, given that they're not moral philosophers, they're not moralists.
	Yes.
	Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
	So, it's like if I go on a sailing vessel with a bunch of people who aren't sailors, it's not that surprising if they don't act very well when there's a storm, because they don't really know what they're doing, right?
	Yes.
	So it's not other people's fault that I was betrayed.
	It's my fault or my responsibility to make the necessary adjustments into my life so that I don't get betrayed again.
	If I don't want to get betrayed, and generally we don't, although we're willing to risk it for some external causes or reasons at times.
	So with regards to your frustration, Your frustration, fundamentally, is with your own judgment that leads you to being betrayed.
	And I sympathize with all of that, and we all have that issue to deal with.
	But if you can figure out what did you miss about your cousins that they end up betraying you, what did you not understand, what did you not see, because you're surprised by the betrayal, then you have to figure out How to seal up that hole in your values to the point where you don't have people in your life who will betray you.
	And then you don't have to be frustrated at being betrayed.
	If you can figure out how to load the dishwasher every time so that it doesn't slam, it doesn't jam, you can close it, then you won't be frustrated with your dishwasher, right?
	You have to adjust your own actions, not keep slamming other people, if that makes sense.
	It makes sense.
	It makes sense.
	See, oh my gosh, I can't be concerned.
	I'm as shocked as you are.
	All right.
	So will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Yes, I will.
	Yes.
	All right.
	Thank you so much for a really, really great call.
	And congratulations again on a great marriage to an FDR listener, the best kind there are.
	And on this wonderful journey, you're going to go on as a mother.
	I can't tell you how lucky your baby is.
	Two peaceful parents on board.
	Thank you.
	On board the onboarding.
	All right.
	Well, thanks.
	Keep me posted.
	I appreciate the call today.
	I will.
	Thank you.
	Bye-bye.

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