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Nov. 29, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:56:44

FIRST TIME CALLER - Help Me With Social Anxiety? Freedomain Call In

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Time	Text
	Hello.
	Can you hear me?
	Hello.
	Hey, how's it going?
	Pretty good.
	How are you?
	I'm well.
	I'm well.
	Nice to meet you.
	I'm sorry you're feeling a bit under the weather, but I'm sure we can do some useful stuff with our...
	Sorry, give me one second.
	I'm kind of outside.
	It's kind of hard to hear you.
	Just give me one sec.
	Sorry.
	Sure.
	Sorry, can you hear me?
	I'm sorry?
	Can you hear me all right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, good.
	Yeah, so I'm all ears.
	Tell me what's going on.
	Ah, it's a long story.
	I've got time, man.
	It's your time.
	So let's just say that my childhood wasn't like the greatest growing up because in a way I was kind of like verbally abused and then made it to where I don't really feel like I belong or fit in.
	And then it was like, what's the purpose of life?
	Everything that I seem to do, they don't approve of.
	Whether it's not, I don't know if it's just that they don't, Okay, I was adopted.
	Let's just put it out.
	I was adopted and growing up between my other brothers, I feel like, you know, some people, they have to learn things differently, like be taught things differently in order to understand them.
	But me and all my other brothers were just taught the same way.
	But I don't know if that has anything to do with it or...
	I'm just like really confused right now on why things are the way they are.
	No, no problem at all.
	Now, what age were you adopted at?
	Two years old.
	And do you know what circumstances you had in your first two years of life?
	I do not, really, because I was so young.
	I don't hardly even remember.
	No, no, I get that.
	But I mean, you must have, I mean, or I don't know if you must have, but did you hear stories about what happened or what the circumstances were?
	The reason why I was adopted?
	Well, I mean, yeah.
	Yeah, I mean, what was your first two years like, not based on your memory directly, but on what you've heard or been told or experienced since?
	Obviously, what I was told is that they were, like, too young when they had me and in and out of prison.
	and And my guess is they just couldn't do it, so that's why I was put up for adoption.
	So they did it for, I guess, a year and a half, and what, it took you a couple of months to get adopted, something like that?
	Yeah, something like that.
	Do you know if you were taken from your birth parents, or was it voluntary that they gave you up?
	I do not know.
	I don't know.
	And do you know what they were in prison for?
	Nope.
	So you have had no contact with them since, is that right?
	No.
	I don't even know.
	Honestly, I don't even know if they're still alive.
	And so how did you find out that they were in prison?
	I'm sorry, what?
	How did you find out that they were in prison?
	Well, that's because that's what my parents now, that I have now, told me.
	And when did they tell you that your parents were imprisoned?
	I was probably...
	This is probably like...
	Okay, I'm 26 now.
	This is probably when I was an age, I had a teenager, so probably around like 15, 16. Because I asked about them, and then they were like, eh, they don't want anything to do with you.
	Yadda, yadda, yadda.
	The list goes on.
	So...
	Okay, so they said your step-parents said that your birth parents didn't want to have anything to do with you and that they gave you up because they were too young and they were in prison or they went to prison?
	Yeah, they were in and out of prison.
	But, yeah.
	Why do you think that's kind of strange?
	Why do you think they told you that?
	I don't know.
	In my mind, I was probably thinking that the reason why they said that is because...
	They just wanted me to move on, and then the fact that they're my parents now, they wanted me to keep the mindset of having them as my parents and not constantly thinking about my biological parents.
	Well, but the best way for them to achieve that is to be really nice to you and helpful and positive as parents, but it doesn't sound like that was the case too much, right?
	Well, they weren't rude or anything when they said it.
	They just basically kind of put their foot down and said...
	No, no, but you said that you were verbally abused as a child?
	Yeah.
	So tell me a little bit about that.
	What happened there?
	Oh, it's because in a way, it's like whenever I did something wrong, you know how you're supposed to correct the child and show them how to do it correctly?
	Instead, I just got yelled at.
	And that doesn't fix the problem because in my mind, that leaves, okay, do they love me?
	Do they not love me?
	Am I doing something wrong?
	Am I not doing something wrong?
	And the list goes on.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so can you give me...
	I'm not disagreeing with you, of course.
	I just want to make sure I understand the examples that you're talking about.
	So can you think of an example where you did something wrong and also what was yelled at you?
	I mean, yelling could include a bunch of different things.
	What was sort of typically said to you and what was the kind of things that you were doing wrong?
	For like one example, it was like, I don't remember exactly what it was, but I remember...
	I was like doing something and then my mom didn't like it and she started yelling at me and got like a spanking or whatnot.
	But it's like, at times, I realized, yes, okay, I did this wrong.
	But then there were times when I got yelled at and whatnot and I was like, okay, what did I do wrong?
	Okay, and I'm so sorry.
	I'm sorry to interrupt you and I don't want you to be overly sensitive to this, but When I ask you a question, you can choose to answer it or not, but I feel like you're not quite listening to the question that I'm asking.
	Do you remember what I asked?
	About an example?
	So if you can give me a specific example of something that you did that was wrong and what was said to you, like what was yelled at you or what happened?
	I don't remember exactly what was yelled at me, but I just know it was like, you know, how like Typically, it's like you see a mom or a parent yelling at their child.
	Okay.
	I'm still going to ask you, I mean, it must have happened hundreds of times over the course of your childhood.
	I'm just trying to get a sense of what you did that was perceived as wrong, right?
	Because, listen, and the reason I'm asking is some kids get yelled at and hit for not stacking the dishwasher quite correctly.
	Some kids get yelled at and hit for trying to run in the road.
	Right?
	Or biking down a steep hill without a helmet.
	Now, the yelling and the hitting is not good, but sometimes the provocation can be different levels.
	So that's what I'm trying to understand is what was the typical stuff or what's an example of something that you did that was wrong that you got hit or yelled at for?
	I know one of them was I lied about something when the truth was more convenient.
	I remember that.
	What did you lie about?
	I don't know the exact thing that it was, but...
	Okay, you keep saying the word exact.
	Of course, I don't expect you to have the exact words, right, for stuff that happened 20 years ago.
	But just roughly, what was the kind of things that you would get yelled at or hit for?
	They would ask me, like, hey, why are you doing this?
	Or why aren't you doing that?
	And then I'd be like, in order to avoid altercations and conflict, like, Okay, but that's after you've already been yelled at and spanked a bunch of times.
	So my question is, what's the kind of stuff that you would get yelled at or spanked for?
	I don't know.
	Just not doing things correctly.
	I don't know.
	That's kind of a hard one.
	Is it hard because you don't remember any specific instance?
	And again, I'm not doubting anything that you're experiencing at all.
	I'm just trying to understand more detail about what happened.
	Yeah, it's kind of hard because it's kind of hard to remember certain instances.
	Okay, so is it that you don't remember any instances at all, or just some of them you don't remember?
	I mean, if I gave you a million dollars to tell me one thing that you got yelled at or hit for, do you think you'd come up with one instance from your childhood?
	And again, I'm not being skeptical.
	I'm just trying to understand more about your childhood.
	It's like most of the stuff was just lying about things when the truth was more convenient just in order to avoid.
	No, but you lied because you were afraid of being yelled at or hit.
	So being yelled at or hit must have come first, and that's what I'm sort of asking about.
	Okay, let me ask you something else.
	How often were you yelled at or hit in a typical week or month when you were a little kid?
	Like maybe from the age of when you can remember up until about, say, 12?
	Probably about like...
	Or weekly or monthly or...
	It's on average basically about like two to three times a week.
	Okay, so two to three times a week.
	Okay, so we're talking, I don't know, 800 to...
	I'm sorry, two to three times a week.
	So we're talking 150 to maybe 200 times a year, right?
	Yeah.
	Right over, let's say, from the age of when you can remember, like, I don't know, four to 12. So let's just say 200 times eight years.
	So we've got...
	1,200 times that you were yelled at or hit.
	Now, of course, I know that's not an exact number, but just approximately.
	Yeah, that's just a rough estimate.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So of those 1,200 times, of course, I'm not asking you to remember every time, but one, just so I can get a sense of what you were yelled at and hit for.
	for.
	And it can't be the lying thing because that's subsequent to being yelled at or hit.
	And I'm trying to think of one of the Gradoff's tips.
	No, that's fine.
	Fine, take your time.
	Yeah, I can't think of any right now.
	Thank you.
	Well, can you think of a category?
	Was it like cleaning or talking back or disagreeing with your parents or was it not doing your homework or cutting school or was there a sort of category of things that might ring a bell?
	Well, I do remember that there was this one time that I talked back and then my mom hit me and then ended up on the floor, but I kind of deserved it because of the way I was being disrespectful.
	Okay, so do you remember what the disagreement was about?
	I do not.
	I just remember that happening.
	Okay, and what age were you?
	A teenager.
	I can't remember exactly what age.
	Probably 15, 16. Okay, so 15 or 16, you disagreed with your mother about something, and then you felt that you deserved to get...
	Sorry, was that hit or yell there?
	It was both.
	Okay, so you were getting hit into your mid-teens, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, and how long have you been listening to what I do?
	I'm sorry, how long have you been listening to what?
	To my show, to what I do.
	Oh, to your show?
	I actually have one of my friends...
	Recommended it to you, so I'm actually pretty new.
	Okay, got it.
	So, help me understand what you mean when you say that you deserved to be hit by your mother because you disagreed with her when you were 15. Oh, because I was being disrespectful.
	Okay, and sorry.
	What do you mean by the word disrespectful?
	You know, when you don't treat someone with respect, like treat your authority with respect, that kind of...
	Okay, but what do you mean by respect?
	What does that mean?
	Because, you know, it could be said that hitting someone who's almost an adult is disrespectful, right?
	So if it's If you're supposed to be respectful, then shouldn't your parents also be somewhat respectful towards you?
	And yelling at and hitting you for a decade or so is disrespectful, right?
	I mean, it's not respectful to hit people or yell at them or insult them.
	So I'm trying to understand what you mean by respectful.
	Does that just mean never questioning, never disagreeing?
	Respectful means being kind, polite, and then, in a way, trying to put yourself in their shoes, realizing where they're coming from, so you could actually help.
	Fix the situation, fix the problem easier and better, have a better solution to it.
	Fantastic.
	Okay, great.
	I appreciate that.
	Okay, so being kind and thoughtful and empathetic is good, right?
	Yes, correct.
	So is it kind and thoughtful and empathetic to hit a child?
	No.
	No.
	Okay, is it kind and thoughtful and empathetic to yell at a child and maybe call the child names?
	No, because it takes a toll on them mentally.
	Right, okay.
	So if being thoughtful and kind is respectful, and if respectful is good, then why would your parents not be respectful towards you and reason with you or listen to you or trying to figure out what was going on in your mind instead of just hitting you or yelling at you?
	I don't know if it's just the fact that they thought they know best, which of course, they do know more than me because that time I was only like teenagers or grown adults.
	But I don't know, that could possibly be because it's like, it's my way or the highway.
	Okay, so they know more than you.
	You live under my roof, you're going to do what I tell you to do.
	Right.
	So, if you say that your parents know more than you, of course they do.
	I accept that I'm a parent myself.
	So, your parents know more than you, but that's true of Coaches and teachers and priests and a bunch of people, right?
	Do you think that a coach...
	Have you played any sports?
	Did you play any sports in your childhood or in your teenage years?
	Yes, I played sports.
	And what sport?
	Give me a sport that you played.
	I played basketball and soccer.
	Basketball and soccer.
	Okay.
	We'll go with soccer because I'm British, right?
	Or at least that's my background, so I know that a little better.
	Okay, so do you think that a soccer coach who knows more, obviously the coach knows more about the game than the players, is that fair to say?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, so do you think that the soccer coach, that the best way for him to transfer his knowledge of the game to children that he's coaching is to hit them and yell at them and call them names?
	No.
	No.
	Okay.
	Have you ever had a coach who hits children when he's trying to instruct them on how to play the game?
	No, I haven't.
	So, why do you think it would be bad for a coach to hit children?
	Because that's physical abuse and that's not a good thing.
	And also, it makes it toward the...
	The players or whatnot don't want to stay on the team or whatnot.
	It just arises so much altercations.
	Right.
	No, I agree with you.
	So, the fact that a coach knows more than the players does not give the coach the right to hit the players.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, the fact that your parents know more than you does not give them the right to hit you.
	Because they're just other kinds.
	It's just a different kind of coaching.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so again, I sort of have to go back to trying to figure out what you mean by respectful.
	Because if your parents want you to be respectful, The first thing they should do is show respect to you, right?
	Like if your parents want to teach you the right words for things, then they calmly and patiently tell you, oh, that's a tree, that's a rock, that's the sky, that's a cloud, right?
	So if your parents want you to be respectful, but they've spent most of your childhood yelling at you and hitting you, then they've modeled disrespect towards you.
	Is that a fair way to put it?
	Okay, so if your parents have modeled violence and disrespect towards you, it seems odd to me that they would then punish you for being disrespectful towards them because they've modeled disrespect towards family members by yelling at you and hitting you.
	Yeah, I can see that.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, when you said that you deserved being hit at the age of 15 because you disagreed with your mother or...
	It's funny, you know, they used...
	I don't know if they used this phrase in your family.
	They did in mine.
	You're talking back, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	But all conversation is talking back, right?
	Yeah.
	I say something, you talk back.
	It just depends on the tone in your voice and the way you're like, you know, the way you're saying it.
	Right, but if your parents have been yelling at you in an angry tone for your entire childhood that you can remember, if your parents have been yelling at you, and, you know, did they call you names like stupid or selfish or, I guess they said disrespectful and things like that, right?
	Yeah, there was one, selfish.
	Yeah, there were quite a bit of them.
	Okay, so your parents kind of insulted you, called you names, hit you and yelled at you.
	So that's what they modeled for you, so they did not treat you with respect.
	So then how am I supposed to know how to treat them with respect?
	Well, you're basically, if you do what they do, you're called really, really bad.
	Yeah, and they always said, like, shame.
	Like, basically...
	I think I've heard about this where, like, if a kid is called, like, shame on them or whatnot, it makes them think, I am bad.
	And then guilt, like, the difference between guilt and shame.
	Yeah, so guilt is usually when you have failed your own standards.
	Shame is when you're punished, usually, for failing other people's hypocritical standards, if that makes sense.
	Okay.
	Right, right.
	Okay, so tell me what it means, then, that you deserved to be hit for being upset with your mother, for being angry at your mother, for strongly disagreeing with your mother.
	Does that mean that any time you disagree with your parents, you are bad?
	It's wrong and bad to disagree with your parents.
	Is that right?
	Well, not necessarily, in a way.
	If it's ethical, then it's Good to agree with them, but if it's not ethical or whatnot, then of course, yeah, it's not a kid to agree with them.
	Okay, and sorry to be Mr. Annoying Socratic Guy, but what is it that you mean in this case by the word ethical?
	Right, true, honest.
	Well, I'm sure that you honestly disagreed with your parents, right?
	Well, in some instances, yes.
	But that's the thing.
	It's like, if I would have brought it up or whatnot, they would have just been like, well...
	It's our rules, what we say, you have to live by them and live by them.
	So it's almost like in a way, it was their way or the highway, and I didn't have a say in any of it.
	So I just had to do what they wanted me to do, or told me to do.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And was that because they thought that their rules were good and right and healthy and moral?
	It could be.
	Well, is that what they said?
	Did they say, our rules are bad, but you should follow them anyway?
	Our rules are immoral, but you should follow them?
	They didn't say that, right?
	They didn't really even say that the rules are good and all of that stuff.
	It's just the fact of, in a way, they basically assumed me to understand that they were through their eyes.
	Does that make sense?
	Well, it's a little hard to understand rules when apparently it's a big virtue to treat people with respect, but then you get insulted, yelled at, verbally put down, and hit, right?
	So the reason why it's so confusing is your parents say, well, respect is really good.
	But then they don't show it.
	They treat you very disrespectfully, right?
	Yeah.
	So, that's the part I have trouble.
	And that's why it's hard to understand what the word respectful...
	Like, if being respectful is really, really good, then your parents should treat you with respect, right?
	But yelling at you and hitting you and insulting you, it's not treating you with respect, right?
	Yeah.
	So, that is...
	And also, if they say, you should obey our rules, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, then they should obey their rules too, shouldn't they?
	And when you mean they should obey their rules, you mean talking about the rules they have set down?
	Yeah, so if the rule is you should treat people with respect, right?
	Yeah.
	Then they should treat people with respect, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So I guess that's my...
	My question is, if they say, you should follow our rules no matter what, but then they themselves are not following their own rules, then that's pretty bad, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	Actually, it's pretty bad.
	So that's why it's kind of confusing.
	So if the punishment for not following rules is to be yelled at or hit, Right?
	Then, if your parents aren't following their own rules, what is the punishment for them?
	Well, I assume that there's no punishment for them.
	Yeah, because they're grown adults.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Now, was it the case that you and your siblings were both, was the discipline the same, like the yelling and the hitting and so on?
	No.
	you There were some instances, but it was mainly just me that got in trouble, got yelled at.
	Which probably explains another reason why, since my other siblings are all grown adults too.
	And they're all married and everything.
	I'm the only one that's not married, doesn't even have a girlfriend.
	And in a way, it's because I'm such an introvert that When it comes to talking to people, I have to wait until I feel comfortable around them in order to talk to them and get to know them and open up.
	And I don't know if that has to do with childhood or what.
	Well, tell me what you mean.
	Again, I'm sorry to be a mystery definition, but I always want to make sure that we're talking about the same thing.
	What do you mean by being introverted?
	As in when I hate being in big crowds, being in huge rooms with a bunch of people.
	Because it's almost like, in my mind, it's like, alright, what are they thinking about me?
	In reality, probably 98% of them aren't even thinking about you.
	But in my mind, it processes it that way to where, oh, are they thinking about me in a positive way?
	If I say something, are they going to accept it?
	Are they going to think it was stupid?
	So then that's another reason why I like Don't really say anything, and yeah.
	Okay, so you're concerned that other people might be thinking negatively about you, is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	Now, how did your relationships, is it two brothers that you have?
	I grew up, well, I have more than just two brothers, but I grew up with Two of them, because the other ones were already grown and out of the house.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, how was your relationship with your siblings when you were growing up?
	One of my brothers I'm close to, the other one I, like, wasn't really close to.
	So one of them I basically did, like, everything with.
	Like, all the sports and all of that, but the other one, he, yeah.
	I wasn't close to him.
	So the one you were close to, how far apart are you in age?
	I'm six months older than him.
	Which explains because I was adopted.
	But yeah, I'm six months older.
	And is he introverted as well?
	You said you're the only real introvert.
	Is that right?
	No, he's extroverted.
	Which probably explains the reason why I was close to him.
	Because I kind of found it out this way.
	When you have two introverted people together, it's basically you're at the point of times where there's nothing but silence.
	And then it's like you're trying to think of something to say, but you're struggling trying to think of something to say.
	They're probably in the same boat trying to think of something to say, but they're struggling.
	So what I found is when you have me being introverted, I tend to open up and be able to hold better conversations with someone that's an extrovert.
	Because in a way, I struggle with starting the conversation, but when they're the ones...
	That are like starting it.
	And then in my mind, it's like, oh, I know something about that.
	And then I throw out a comment.
	And then it's basically like we go back and forth.
	My problem is just keeping it going.
	Like, for example, if I was with another introvert.
	Because it would basically at that point just be small talk.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And what are your major concerns when you think about people talking about you?
	What are your major concerns that they're talking about?
	What is your fear that they're discussing about you?
	Like whether if they like me, if they think I'm a cool guy or a nice guy or, you know, the list goes on.
	Like, yeah, nice, kind, cool guy.
	Okay, and what if they don't feel that, or they don't think they're a cool or nice guy?
	And in a way, they told me they don't think that?
	Yeah, let's say, I mean, people would very rarely tell you, right?
	So, what is your concern?
	How would you know if they were thinking badly of you, or what would make you think that?
	Because of the way they act when hanging around them.
	Because you could tell, like, when someone's disengaged, like, when they're with you, and it's almost like they throw off that vibe that, okay, I'm not having no fun.
	You know?
	And if they have a negative view of you, what is your concern about that?
	that, how do you think that might play out negatively for you?
	For me, it's kind of gotten to the point that if someone does have like a negative view it's kind of gotten to the point that if someone does have like a negative view on me or whatnot, I just like, you know, it kind of put them out of my life because it's, you know, like, in a way
	When I already struggle with negative thoughts as it is, I don't need more people to give me more negativity.
	Do I have more negative thoughts to dwell on in my mind?
	Right.
	You know?
	Right.
	No, but that's a practical strategy you have now.
	But what about in the past, what was your major concern about people having negative opinions of you?
	Because of them knowing that I was like introverted?
	And in a way, it's like, in their mind, they probably...
	Go over a couple things that, well...
	I wouldn't really necessarily want to be his friend because it would be boring or, you know, he wouldn't really have anything to talk about.
	Because in a way, people like being around more extroverted, more outgoing people.
	Right.
	So in a way, it's not like an inconvenience for them.
	They're actually...
	Enjoying their time when they're spending with that person.
	So you're of more value, or extroverted people are of more value, is that right?
	To me, or are you asking in general?
	Kids of the world as a whole.
	Well, they have, I'm not saying that they're of more value.
	Well, in my eyes, I kind of do hold them as more value because when I'm with another introverted person, it's like, It's stagnant.
	We have nothing to talk about.
	There's times where it's nothing but silence.
	So in my eyes, they're more valuable in a way.
	I'm not saying that they are the most valuable between the two.
	I'm just saying, in my eyes, they are more valuable.
	Right.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Now, why do you think you are concerned with people who don't like you?
	Or who might find you boring or whatever.
	And I'm not trying to say that you're totally wrong, right?
	We all want people to like us, right?
	I get all of that.
	But what do you think is your major concern about people who don't like you?
	Why do you think you have that fear?
	It makes me feel like I don't fit in and I don't belong.
	Sure, but that's not necessarily a bad thing.
	If they're bad people, then you don't want to fit in, right?
	Like, I mean, let's just take a silly example, right?
	If it was a criminal gang, you wouldn't want to fit in, right?
	So, what do you think is the major concern?
	It's not just not fitting in.
	What else do you think it might be?
	I don't know, in a way, like, being rejected.
	Again, if it's bad people, you want them to reject you, right?
	Yeah.
	So what else?
	But that's the thing.
	It's like, for me, if I don't hang around them, like, long enough to get to know whether they're a good person or a bad person, how am I supposed to tell?
	And yes, I know some people you can tell right off the bat, you're like, oh, yeah, you need to stay away from them.
	Yeah.
	So you may not have the chance, right, if you don't know?
	To actually get to know if you're actually truly a good person or a bad person, because I haven't hung around them long enough to get to know them.
	Right, right.
	Get to know what their morals are and their values and, you know, the list goes on.
	Right, okay.
	So your concern is that they might not like you and you wouldn't have enough You wouldn't have enough knowledge of them to figure out whether it was good or bad that they didn't like you.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Okay, so would someone who didn't like you give you a chance, or would they just immediately not like you?
	It varies.
	Some of them would, but then also some of them didn't.
	But wouldn't a good person give you a chance rather than just write you off based on a glance or two, right?
	Like a good person would give you a chance to show that you were worth getting to know or at least not just dismiss you for no particular reason.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, if people did reject you without getting to know you, they would be pretty low-quality people, wouldn't they?
	Mm-hmm.
	Because in their eyes, they're just...
	I'm like inconvenience to them, so I'm basically wasting their time.
	So, yeah.
	Right.
	Right.
	So, again, we're sort of back to why are you concerned?
	And I'm not disagreeing with you again, right?
	But why do you think you're so concerned with people not liking you?
	I mean, if you're a good person, right, bad people won't like you.
	That's fair to say, right?
	Like if, I don't know, I hope you don't do many drugs, right?
	But if you are around a bunch of people doing drugs, and you say it's unwise to do drugs, and it's probably good to quit, then they might dislike you, right?
	But that would be a mark of the quality of your personality, if that makes sense.
	If you had a bunch of people who could only get together by drinking themselves into oblivion, then you'd probably say, you know, gee, that's not particularly ideal to have to drink so much to socialize.
	And then they might get mad at you about that, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	If you're at the park and you see some guy, you know, screaming at his kid and you say, hey, that's really not good, you shouldn't do that, then that person is probably going to get quite upset about you, right?
	Yeah.
	So having people upset with you is not necessarily a bad thing.
	In fact, it may be a mark of your virtue, if that makes sense.
	That doesn't align right with their values and their morals and whatnot.
	Well...
	I don't know about aligning with morals.
	I mean, it's not particularly moral to be screaming at your kid.
	So it's not just a difference of morality, like they're doing something wrong.
	Yeah.
	So it's not like you don't align with their values.
	It's like they're bad guys and you're a good guy and bad guys don't like good guys, right?
	Yeah, I can see that.
	I don't want to get overly simplistic, but that seems to be kind of important, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I'll tell you why, and I don't know, right?
	But this would be my guess.
	I'll tell you why I think you're concerned about people not liking you.
	Okay.
	What happened to you when your parents didn't like you?
	When your parents had a problem with you, what happened?
	How did it go?
	I would get yelled at when I was a little kid, get spankings.
	There were times that I had to put my nose on the wall and just stand there.
	I remember there was two times I had to stand there the whole entire day.
	Oh, really?
	You had to stand there the whole entire day?
	Yeah.
	I don't remember what I did, but it doesn't matter what you did.
	It doesn't matter what you did.
	Like, there's no, there's no, oh, well, if you did this, that makes sense, right?
	No.
	So now you kind of get why I'm, like, have the feeling that whether or not people are going to suck me or like me or whatnot, because...
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's because when your parents didn't like you, they abused you terribly.
	Yeah.
	Is that a fair way to put it?
	Yeah, it is.
	So if your parents didn't like you, they abused you terribly, so of course it's hugely important For you to be liked, because if you're not liked, you could be tortured.
	I mean, I don't want to be unfair, but making a kid stand with his nose against the wall for an entire day, that's straight-up torture.
	Yeah.
	I mean, it's your life.
	So, you know, does that seem unreasonable to say?
	That is, well.
	Well, that's just like one of the beginning things that's weighing me down.
	Well, hang on, hang on.
	So, again, if you were to take an enemy combatant in a war, and you were to force the enemy combatant to stand in a stressed position for an entire day, that would be considered torture, wouldn't it?
	Yes.
	So if you do that to a child, is that not torture?
	It is.
	Okay.
	So then your parents were torturous.
	They were child torturers.
	Again, I'm not trying to tell you what to think.
	It just I always think about things like I'm a philosophy guy, right?
	So I always think about things in terms of universals, right?
	In other words, if it wasn't a child, if it was just someone else, would that be a torture or would that be illegal or something like that?
	Well, it depends on what you were doing.
	Does it?
	See, torture doesn't depend on what you're doing.
	Torture is just wrong.
	Yeah.
	So help me understand what you mean when you say depends...
	Are you saying that there is a time wherein forcing a child into a day-long stress position of having their nose against the wall, that there is a time or a circumstance under which that could be justified?
	Well, the only way I could see is if they did something really bad and the parents wanted to ingrain in their head that if they do that again, your life is going to be like living hell for the next day or so.
	So in a way that they won't do it.
	That's the only reason why I could see it that way.
	Okay, so can you give me an example of something bad that would justify that?
	I can't think of any off the top of my head.
	Okay.
	Now, if a child does something bad, right?
	Let me give you an example, right?
	Have you ever played a musical instrument and been coached on it?
	Yes, I used to play the trumpet.
	Okay, great.
	So if you have someone, and I'm sure you did have someone, who taught you how to play the trumpet, if you play the trumpet badly, is that your fault alone, or does that have something to do with how you were taught?
	In a way, it could kind of go both ways, because if you weren't practicing what they were teaching you, then what else do you expect?
	But then also, yes, in a way, it could go on there in that they're not teaching you a way that is understandable in your mind to where you understand what they're trying to teach you.
	Okay, so, and I completely agree with you, if you don't practice, then you're not likely to get any better.
	Okay, and that sounds good.
	Now, do you think it is a coach's desire to fulfill what the student wants, right?
	So if the student says, I really want to learn, I'm dying to learn how to play the trumpet, I really want to learn how to play the trumpet, then the student is already motivated to practice.
	Yeah.
	So, if the student is not practicing, that's either because...
	He's probably not motivated.
	Well, he's not motivated.
	Now, he might not be motivated because he doesn't really want to play the trumpet.
	You know, it's just something his parents are telling him.
	He's got to play the trumpet.
	He doesn't want to play the trumpet.
	He wants to play, I don't know, slide guitar, Bo Diddley style, or something like that, right?
	So, if the child is not motivated, Then whoever is making the child learn the trumpet is responsible for the child's lack of motivation.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yeah.
	So then the fault does not lie with the child.
	The fault lies with whoever is forcing the child to learn the trumpet when the child doesn't want to learn the trumpet, right?
	So it's still not the child's fault, really.
	And if the child is motivated, in other words, the child really wants to learn How to play the trumpet.
	But then the child doesn't practice.
	And that's solely his fault.
	Whose fault?
	The child's fault.
	No.
	They're motivated, but they don't practice.
	No, no, no.
	If they're motivated, if they really want to learn to play the trumpet, but they don't play the trumpet, then that is the fault of the teacher.
	Because it's the teacher's job not just to teach you skills, but also to motivate you.
	I mean, you must have seen teachers in sports who were like, you know, kick, pass, hit the ball, take the score, do it, do it, right?
	They're encouraging the kids, right?
	They're helping the kids stay and be motivated.
	Yeah.
	And if you've been on the receiving end of that kind of enthusiasm on the part of your sports coach, I mean, it's pretty exciting, isn't it?
	Doesn't it help you be motivated?
	Mm-hmm.
	It also encourages you in a way, too.
	It does, yeah.
	So if you really want to be the next Messi and you want to play soccer, right, and you're enthusiastic, your coach is enthusiastic, then why wouldn't you just do what the coach says?
	I mean, you won't love every single drill, but if you understand the value and you see how it makes you a better soccer player and you start to win more games, then you're going to be enthusiastic, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So, if a child is not motivated to do something he loves and wants to do, that's the fault of the teacher.
	So, for instance, if the teacher is just constantly critical and negative...
	Then that's going to drain away the child's motivation, right?
	In the same way, if the, and this is more of a female thing, right?
	If the teacher is like, yay, great job, wonderful, when the kid knows he hasn't really done a great job, then that's also going to drain away his motivation because he knows he's not getting real feedback, right?
	Yeah.
	So, if a child is not motivated, it's the fault of others.
	Now, I'm not saying the child has zero responsibility.
	But the child has relatively little responsibility because he's a child.
	Yeah.
	So, in other words, you're trying to say that it's the teacher's responsibility to instill the motivation into the child.
	Right.
	I mean, so...
	You called me up not really knowing who the heck I am or what on earth we're going to talk about.
	So it is to some degree my job to keep you interested in the conversation and to provide value to you.
	I mean, in this conversation, you didn't really know what you were getting into when you called me, right?
	No, I didn't.
	And would you say that the conversation has some value and it's worth staying into for at least a bit longer?
	That's because you're helping me see things through a different eye that I've never saw before.
	Yeah, I mean, that's the job of philosophy is to try and get as objective a set of standards into our heads as possible, and it can be tricky, right?
	Okay, so if you hung up on me, right, which you can do, right?
	I mean, you can hang up on me and go practice the trumpet if you want.
	But if you hung up on me, whose fault would that be?
	I want to say in a way it would be yours because you weren't keeping me motivated.
	Yeah.
	To continue the conversation.
	I would view that as entirely my fault in that I was obviously not providing value or was being offensive or upsetting or not saying things that you found of interest and of use.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Like, I mean, if you want to go and buy a car, and the car salesman is, like, really pushy, and he's like, you should buy the $200,000 electric blah, blah, blah, and you're like, bro, I'm a student, I can't afford that.
	And he's just like, no, no, no, we'll drop the price by 5%, right?
	Oh, whatever, right?
	Like, at some point, you'd be like, okay, like, peace out, I'm not, like, you're not helping, right?
	Yeah, I'll go somewhere else.
	Right.
	So it would be the salesman's fault, right?
	So in a sense, I'm trying to sell you a certain philosophical perspective that I hope will be helpful.
	And it's my job to make sure that it is useful and helpful and we're going at a helpful pace, right?
	I'm not spending one hour on one principle, but I'm also not doing 20 principles a minute, which would be kind of confusing for both of us.
	Probably more me than you.
	But...
	It is my job as someone who's trying to provide information and perspective and value to make sure that that's what I'm doing.
	And if you say, and you know, maybe it wouldn't even be a rage quit.
	It would just be like, Steph, or whoever the hell you are, you know, you make a lot of sounds, but nothing really connects with me and I've got better things to do with my time, right?
	That would be my fault, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so when your parents didn't like something you did, when your parents wanted you to be good, what was the best or most perfect or ideal way for them to approach that problem?
	What would have been the ideal way for them to approach the problem of, which all parents have, wanting your child to be good?
	So you're asking in a way how they would approach it?
	No.
	Yeah.
	What would have been the best way?
	Because I'm basically saying, what is the best coaching for virtue?
	Which is the most important job that parents have is to coach their children.
	On the nature of virtue, right?
	Because anyone can teach your kids skills, but virtue is really the...
	I mean, it could be the priest, but it should be the parents, right?
	So, if your parents have a complaint, like, you're a liar, or you're selfish, or you're lazy, or, like, if they have a complaint about you that has something to do with morals, what is the best way for them to instruct you?
	To approach it to fix the situation?
	Well, to instruct you.
	Yeah, I was thinking it was basically just yelling.
	No, but that's what they did.
	What's the best way?
	The best way for them to?
	Yeah, for the best way.
	What's the best way?
	And it's a big question, right?
	It's not an easy answer.
	Yeah, it's a big question.
	What is the best way to teach someone?
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	Oh, I see what you're asking.
	What is the best way to teach someone to where they understand what they're trying to teach you in the first place?
	Right.
	Or you would want to do it with kindness and respect in a way that draws the attention of the child to actually want to change what the issue was instead of if you do it with anger and all of that, it makes it to where the child doesn't want anything to do with it.
	Right.
	Yes, and so the first thing that you would want from a teacher is for them to show that they have expertise in the subject matter, right?
	So, in other words, if your parents are trying to teach you to be good, the first thing that you'd want to see is your parents being good.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Now, when you look back on your childhood, would you say that you respected your parents' virtues, honesty, integrity, kindness, empathy, and their morals?
	To a certain extent, yes.
	Okay, that's great.
	Right.
	So tell me what are the virtues that your parents manifested that you deeply admire?
	Well, I'm going to say that most of the time of the yelling and all that stuff was behind closed doors at home, whereas out in the public and everything, it's almost like it was completely different.
	So it's kind of hard to distinguish.
	Yeah.
	But that's hypocrisy.
	That's terrible.
	That's a vice.
	That's corruption.
	That's not virtue.
	Well, that probably explains why my view on it is kind of distorted, because I don't know what's...
	Well, if it's good parenting to yell at and hit children, then why wouldn't they do it in public?
	I mean, you shouldn't do the opposite of what you call the good just because there are other people around, right?
	Yeah.
	So, again, what are the morals and virtues that your parents manifest?
	It means they don't just talk about it, but they actually do it.
	What are the morals and virtues that you most admire with regards to your parents?
	In a way they help in a time of need.
	That's one of them.
	Okay, well, what do you mean by that?
	What's an example of that?
	Let's say if I was at the end of my rope one day and then I need help with something.
	But like what?
	So what?
	Hello?
	Sorry, I'm still here.
	Oh, yeah.
	So you're at the end of your rope and what do you mean by that?
	And how do they help?
	And I'm not disagreeing with you again.
	I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.
	You know, like, at times when you've had, like, a bad day or a bad week, and then you feel like, all right, this is it.
	Like, I just want to curl up in a ball, hide in a hole or a cave or something, not come out for, like, the next two days.
	Right.
	That kind of...
	and so what would they do that would be helpful with regards to that in a way like provide the positive feedback and with by saying that it's not the end it's just part of life and things will get better because life has its valleys
	and then there's times you're on the mountaintop of life so it's just part of life, having its ups and downs.
	Good days, bad days.
	Ah, okay.
	Now, did they model that behavior?
	When you were a kid, in other words, if they were having a bad day, were they able to talk themselves out of being in a bad mood and take things with more calm and peace of mind?
	There are times, yes.
	But then also at times, it's like, when someone just wants to isolate themselves away from society or people or whatnot, you can tell they're not having a good time.
	Right.
	And was that you or your parents?
	That was me.
	I stayed in my room most of the time growing up and then just did my own thing, listening to music.
	Well, of course, because it was dangerous outside of your room, right?
	Yeah.
	Sorry, if your parents say, there's no need to be so upset, life has its ups and downs, everything's going to work out.
	These are kind of cliches or like you cracked them out of a fortune cookie at Mandarin restaurant, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Did your parents, when they were upset with you, did you get to say to them, oh, there's no need to be so upset.
	You know, parenting has its ups and downs.
	You know, there's no need to get so mad.
	You don't need to yell.
	You don't need to hit because it's going to get better.
	Well, no, because if I said that, I would have been on the floor.
	Right.
	As in a way of, in their eyes, I'm talking back to them.
	Right.
	So it's disrespectful.
	So they did not live those values themselves.
	in a way But there were...
	It wasn't like every single time it was, no.
	Like, they didn't.
	But there were some times they did.
	Well, but that's not the way that morality works.
	Right?
	So, let me ask you this.
	There were times when you didn't talk back to your parents, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, when you did talk back to your parents and they got upset, right?
	Did you get to say to them, hey, listen, there are times when I don't do that, so there's no need to get upset?
	No, I never told them that, because I knew what would happen.
	Right, so the idea that there were times when they were able to talk themselves out of being upset doesn't really matter, because we're talking about All of the times that they did wrong.
	Now, the times that we do wrong don't get erased by the stuff we do right.
	So, for instance, let's take a silly example, right?
	If some guy kills a homeless guy, right?
	And then the police say, hey, you know, we have you on film killing a homeless guy.
	Does he get to say, hey, man, that was only one day.
	Think of all the days in my life where I haven't killed a homeless guy.
	So, your parents did not follow their own advice consistently, so they say to you, don't get upset, but they regularly got upset in horrible ways continually.
	Mm-hmm.
	So, they don't believe their own morals.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	Okay, so that's why it's really, really tough.
	To do that.
	So, let me ask you something else.
	If I break some woman's leg, and then I offer to help her by buying her a crutch, am I a good guy?
	No.
	At least not through her eyes.
	I'm trying to help her with your crutch!
	Oh, I thought you were talking about if I put myself in their shoes and then realize where they were coming from.
	No!
	It would kind of be weird if...
	Let me...
	Sorry, I was being sort of sarcastic.
	Sorry about that.
	So, I break a woman's legs and then I buy her a crutch.
	Am I a good guy?
	Oh, are we still live?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I know, I'm trying to think of that one.
	Because in my mind, instantly when you said that, my mind instantly ran to, okay, why would someone, I know you're being sarcastic, but still.
	No, no, it's a real question.
	I was being sarcastic afterwards, right?
	So if I break a woman's legs and then I buy her some crutches, am I a good guy?
	Okay, if you broke the person's leg on purpose, no, but...
	But if you did it on accident, yes.
	Okay, well, if it was on purpose, then no.
	You're not a good person.
	Okay, so if I break...
	And you're right.
	Thank you for the clarification.
	That's a much better way of putting it.
	If I break a woman's legs on purpose and then I buy her a crutch, am I a good guy?
	No.
	No.
	Right.
	Because I'm giving her Some small comfort to a wrong that I have created that doesn't make it all better, right?
	Because she'd much rather not have her leg broken than to get a crutch with a broken leg, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, if your parents, through their abuse and neglect and sometimes torture, in my view, if your parents gave you some severe anxiety, right, and then they give you some comfort, which is kind of hypocritical because they didn't take their own advice when they got upset, which is kind of hypocritical because they didn't take their But let's say your parents abused, neglected, tortured you a little, and then you end up with some difficulties handling some life events, and then they say, oh, don't get so worried.
	Let's say even if the advice is good, does that make them good guys if they kind of broke your spirit and then try to comfort you when that damage shows up in life?
	No, it doesn't make them the good guys.
	Right.
	So, again, we're going back to the question of what are the virtues?
	Now, the fact that, you know, you have a really tough time with something and they give you some cheesy advice that they never followed themselves, that does not make them virtuous.
	I'm so sorry.
	That's just not a thing.
	Yeah, I can see that.
	That's understandable.
	Okay, so let us ask again, what are the virtues that your parents manifest that you admire?
	I don't know, it's kind of like a hard one to like.
	Well, it's actually, I hate to be annoying, I really do, but it's actually kind of easy.
	There are no virtues that your parents can manifest that make up for the wrongs they did.
	Yeah, children.
	Insulting children, yelling at children, forcing children into day-long stress positions.
	There are no virtues that can make up for any of that.
	Not even if they're being remorseful?
	Well, restitution, right, is important, right?
	Do you have access to a car?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Is it your car or your parents?
	My car.
	Your car.
	Okay.
	Now, imagine that I borrow your car and I put a giant dent in the door, right?
	And I hand you the card back and I say, hey man, I'm real sorry.
	My bad.
	And then I just walk away.
	Are you satisfied?
	No.
	Well, why not, man?
	I apologize to you.
	What's wrong?
	Because apology isn't good enough?
	Because it still doesn't fix the situation?
	It doesn't fix the door, right?
	No.
	Right.
	So what would you accept...
	As genuine restitution if I put a big ding in your door.
	If you got it fixed?
	Yeah, I'd have to get it fixed.
	Because you're the one that caused it?
	Yeah.
	I would have to...
	So I'll tell you what I would think of in this.
	It doesn't mean that's what you would think of.
	I'll just tell you what I would think of, right?
	So if I dinged your car door, put a big dent in it, Then what I would do is I would say, listen, I'm going to go get it fixed, and I'm also going to rent you a car for the time that it takes to get it fixed, because you should not be without a ride.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	And now you would then say, okay, my car use is not being interrupted, and the car is getting fixed, and so it's kind of like it never happened.
	Does that make sense?
	Mm-hmm.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Now, of course, I would apologize, but just apologizing and walking away isn't enough, because the apology does not fix the problem.
	Yeah.
	Now, you have some...
	You know, I don't want to characterize this out of turn, so if I get anything wrong, just obviously tell me.
	But based upon what you wrote to me originally, and then based upon what we're talking about here, you have some significant social nervousness, right?
	Yes.
	And that's just one of the things.
	And that comes from your parents' abuse.
	You weren't just born that way.
	Now, if that comes from your parents' abuse and neglect and some of the torture and the insults and all that, right?
	If your social nervousness comes from your parents' And if the apology only means something, if the problem is fixed, like it never happened, like I fix your car door and I rent you a car so you're not out of, you know, let's say it takes three days to get the car fixed or whatever, right?
	And I rent you a car for three days and make sure you're comfortable, right?
	Maybe I rent you a nice two-seater for the chicks to look at or whatever, right?
	Some nice sports car.
	So then you're like, okay, it's fine.
	It's fine.
	So, my question is, if your social nervousness comes out of your parents' abuse, and you said, well, what if they have remorse?
	Okay.
	That sort of doesn't fix the problem.
	Yeah, it doesn't fix the problem, does it?
	Let's say that they fall to their knees and sobbing and, oh gosh, we did such wrong and, you know, we were neglectful and mean and it's not your fault and so on.
	Okay, does that mean that your social nervousness goes away?
	No.
	No?
	If I, as a parent, don't feed my kid enough food and my kid grows up like, I don't know, six inches shorter than they would have, can I fix that later?
	Can I just give them more food later and then they get taller at the age of, say, 25?
	Right?
	Oh, well, if it's at the age of 25, your growth plates are most likely closed, so no.
	Well, you can't fix it later.
	Like, you can't just say, oh, well, I starved my kid, so my kid is short.
	Let's say my son was going to be 6 foot, but he's only 5'6", because I didn't give him enough food.
	Can I fix that later?
	No.
	No.
	There is no restitution when something cannot be made whole.
	You know, if I ding your car and then I fix your car and rent you a car, you've kind of been made whole.
	But if you have a beloved pet in the car that I'm driving and your pet gets killed, I can't just get you a new pet.
	No.
	Right?
	There's no particular restitution for that.
	So, is there anything that your parents can do?
	That would make you whole again, like you were never neglected or abused.
	No, because in me, it's like, it left, in a way, it kind of like left a scar.
	It did.
	It's still there.
	It's still visible.
	Well, and it can't, like, listen, I'm not saying that you have to spend the rest of your life with social nervousness, right?
	These things can be working for sure.
	I know that too.
	It's just going to, for me, it's going to be like twice as hard as it is for A different person for another person.
	Right.
	That doesn't have the same trauma or whatnot that they had to deal with growing up.
	Right.
	I mean, if someone breaks your leg, you can get back to having a functional leg, right?
	Yeah.
	But you can't ever be someone whose leg was never broken, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So can your parents fix what they broke?
	Sadly, no.
	No.
	Now, you can fix it, and it might take work and effort.
	I personally, I went to talk therapy, which I find to be very helpful.
	I went there for a couple of years.
	I did like three hours a week, and then I journaled for like eight hours.
	I poured like, I don't know, a huge amount of money and time and effort and energy into talk therapy for a couple of years, and that helped hugely, right?
	I mean, it actually made me, in a sense, stronger than all of that, right?
	Like, you can go to rehab after your leg gets broken, and you can end up With even stronger legs than before, but it's still, it's a lot of time, effort, energy, and hassle, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So, when I said that if you harm, neglect, hit, abuse, and torture, to some degree, children, then there's no virtues that can make up for that, and you said, well, what about if they have remorse?
	And my argument is, it doesn't matter.
	And do they have remorse?
	Have they talked to you in tears about the wrongs they did to you?
	No.
	Right.
	And, of course, the odds are that they won't.
	Because the only way that you can mistreat a child to that extent is if you lack basic human empathy and have a cruel streak.
	And people who lack basic empathy and have a cruel streak don't get to grow that later on in life.
	Nobody knows how to create empathy in someone who doesn't have it.
	Yeah, I could see that.
	So the reason why you're socially anxious or have this social nervousness, I would assume, obviously I'm not a therapist and I'm not a psychologist, so I can't say any of this stuff with any diagnostic certainty or diagnose anyone, but I would assume that your social nervousness is because it was dangerous but I would assume that your social nervousness is because it was dangerous to be in people's company when Yeah.
	You know, if I grew up with a bunch of pitbulls in the house that kept biting me, I'd be pretty nervous around pitbulls, wouldn't I? Mm-hmm.
	And people would say, well, you have a weird pitbull anxiety disorder, and it's like, it's not a disorder.
	It's perfectly sensible, because they kept biting me.
	Well, then that probably explains why whenever I go to, like, holidays or whatnot at my parents' house, I basically just, like, sit there on, like, the sidelines, don't even say anything.
	Yep.
	Yeah, because why would you want to provoke anyone?
	Hmm.
	Right.
	Now, does anyone in your family notice that you're sitting on the sidelines, or, to ask it another way, did anyone in your family notice that you spent most of your childhood sitting in your room?
	I would have to say it was my brother, because he's the one that reaches out to me, like, the most.
	And he's the listener to what I do, is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So he's recognized that there's an issue.
	He has some significant concern about how you're doing, and he wants you to enjoy socializing more to maybe be a little bit more outgoing.
	And so he's sort of recommended that you and I have this chat, right?
	It actually wasn't my brother that recommended it.
	It was my roommate.
	Oh, your roommate.
	Okay, okay.
	Yeah.
	But your brother has some concern about this, and this is the one who's six months younger?
	Yes, correct.
	Okay.
	And what has he said to you about how your life is going?
	In a way, basically, it's like knowing that everyone goes through hard times in life.
	And then just the fact that, well, you know, I'm here for you if you need anything.
	In a way to make it to where I don't feel like I'm alone going through life, trying to figure out how to do things.
	Well, did your brother know that you were mistreated significantly as a child?
	I mean, he was there, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so has he ever talked to you about that?
	No, because probably in his mind, it's like, that's a touchy subject for him, so don't mention anything.
	So what do you mean?
	Sorry, why is it a touchy subject for him?
	I mean, it was more difficult for you, wasn't it?
	Well, no, I'm not saying a touchy subject for him.
	I'm saying as if I was him.
	In his mind, he would be like, that's a touchy subject for me, so I'm just not talking to him about it.
	Oh, so he would say, it's upsetting to you, therefore he won't talk about it.
	Yes, correct.
	But how does he know that it's upsetting to you?
	I mean, you and I are talking about it.
	Are you horribly upset?
	No.
	Okay, so it's not that touchy a subject.
	Like, if you had some big bruise and I jammed my stupid thumb into it, that would hurt, right?
	But we're having a conversation about, you know, the real nastiness that your parents inflicted on you as a kid, and it doesn't seem to me, again, I can't see you, all right, but it doesn't seem to me that it's horribly upsetting to you, so why would he think it's upsetting to you if you could have a conversation with me?
	I'm not your family, I'm just some guy on the internet.
	And we can have a productive conversation about it.
	So why would he think that it's too touchy for you to talk about?
	Because of him living through it and seeing all the stuff that happened.
	But that's about him, not you.
	Why would it be upsetting for you?
	I would say that at first, this whole situation thing was upsetting, but then it's like I wanted to figure out some reasoning behind it and some answers.
	So that's why I've opened up more towards it to kind of, what's the word, try and resolve the issue and then get some reasoning behind all of the things that happened.
	That's a very elegant non-answer.
	Well done.
	You're like a politician here.
	You're trying to give me the answer.
	But no, but why would it be upsetting?
	Why would he think it would be upsetting to you to get some sympathy for how you were mistreated as a child?
	I mean, that wouldn't be the typical response, right?
	If a kid falls and hurts his knee, you give him a hug and you tell him it's going to be okay, you put on a band-aid, right?
	And so you comfort the child when the child goes through something difficult.
	If the child is crying because they fell down and scraped their knee, you don't sit there and say, well, I'm not going to talk about it with the child because I don't want to upset the child.
	The child's already upset.
	You already have this nervousness around social things and other, like you're already troubled, right?
	That's why we're talking, right?
	So the fact is, he says, well, I don't want to trouble you, but you're already troubled.
	I guess in a way for him it's like he doesn't want to make the situation worse.
	I don't know.
	But how does he know that comforting you, which is to acknowledge the suffering you went through, how does he know that's going to make it worse?
	That's to say that to give someone comfort is to make their suffering worse, but that's completely the opposite of the truth, isn't it?
	Doesn't comforting normally make things better?
	Yeah, it does.
	Okay, so what's the real reason he doesn't want to talk to you about your childhood?
	I'm not saying that he doesn't want to, it's just that it's never brought up as a topic to talk about.
	Well, he knows that you're troubled, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, he also knows that you spent most of your childhood in your room, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Which, you know, by the by, my friend, that's really heartbreaking.
	I'm so sorry.
	I'm just massively sorry about that.
	That's a horrible...
	It's like a little prison, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if my daughter, like, wanted to spend all of her time in her room and never come out and chat with me or go anywhere with me, that would be heartbreaking.
	Well, because, in a way, for me, it was, like, a safe place.
	Sure.
	I had, like, This probably explains the reason why I know so much about sports and music is because I always watch sports and I always listen to my music.
	So that probably explains why those are the two topics I could talk for hours non-stop on.
	But all of the other social stuff, it's like, man, I lack knowledge in this area, I lack knowledge in this area.
	In a way, it just beats me to the ground where it's like, okay, this is so overwhelming.
	I need some answers on Why, you know, my life is at the state it's at now.
	Right.
	So your brother knew that you had an unhappy childhood, right?
	And I'm not saying it's all unhappy.
	I get that, right?
	But in general, it was not very happy, right?
	No.
	Okay.
	So your brother knows that you had an unhappy childhood, right?
	Yes.
	He also knows that all the time you spent in your room learning about sports and music and other things, all of that time was spent not getting social skills, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, when you have difficulty with social skills, your brother knows the exact reason why.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Because normally, or in a sort of healthy environment, kids are out playing, they're doing board games, they're learning how to win and lose, they're learning how to socialize and all of that, right?
	But you spend a lot of time, or most of your childhood, locked away in your room because the house was full of pit bulls in the form of parents.
	I would do that, too.
	If there were pit bulls in the house, I'm staying in my room.
	Thank you very much.
	Mm-hmm.
	Staying in the safe zone.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, staying in the safe zone, of course.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	So, your brother knows why you lack social skills, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So, why wouldn't he talk to you about that?
	I'm not trying to throw him under the bus.
	I mean, I'm genuinely curious.
	If I know why someone has a problem and I never talk to them about why they have that problem, I'm not really helping them, am I? Mm-mm.
	Well, then with that, it's just a question I have to ask him.
	Oh, I know the answer, I think.
	Right?
	I mean, I'm curious what your thoughts are.
	I think I know the answer.
	All right.
	Now, let's see.
	What do you think about it?
	Okay.
	So, how close is your brother?
	I mean, I'm the brother in question.
	How close is he with your parents or your family as a whole?
	He's really close to them.
	He could talk Like, normal conversations with him and everything.
	He wasn't the one that was, like, always stuck in his room and everything, because he, like, I guess he got yelled at every once in a while, but it wasn't, like, the way I was.
	Sure.
	I mean, it's one of the tragedies that sometimes seems to strike people who are not biologically related to the parents.
	Like, you know, this whole sort of fairy tale story.
	Do you think it's in a way because the parents are...
	Kind of nervous that, yes, they have a new child that they adopted.
	They're just afraid they're not going to raise them in the right way?
	No.
	I think it's real biological.
	Like, you know all of these stories where it's like, oh, in fairy tales, oh, we had a loving mother and then our father remarried and the evil, wicked stepmother, right?
	They're not biologically related.
	A lot of times, there just seems to be...
	Yeah, like, I mean, if you have an adult male around teenage girls that he didn't raise that aren't his biological offspring, things can get pretty weird pretty quickly, right?
	There just seems to be a biological shield about having your own flesh and blood in the house.
	And again, I'm not saying that's all there is, but it may be a certain factor.
	Okay, so let's say that your brother were to give you real sympathy and say, man, you had a really bad childhood, and it was my parents' fault.
	It was our parents' fault, right?
	What does that do to his relationship with his parents?
	In a way, it doesn't make it stronger.
	In a way, you're a very nice young man, very diplomatic.
	Oh yeah, because...
	Come on, what do you mean it doesn't make it stronger?
	He then has to look at his parents and say, you abused my brother!
	You kind of tortured him!
	And then knowing how they would respond to that, because he saw the way I acted when I responded to criticism, or if I was doing something wrong, I'd end up on the floor.
	Right.
	So if he criticizes your parents, what happens to him?
	I don't know.
	I haven't really seen him do it.
	I think he knows.
	Or at least that's what he believes.
	So when you say he doesn't want to talk to you about your bad childhood because he doesn't want to upset you, that's not true.
	He doesn't want to talk to you about your bad childhood because it will put him in a path of opposition to his parents.
	Because then he'd have to genuinely criticize his parents for how they treated you.
	And your parents, I don't think, take any kind of criticism very well.
	No.
	So that's why.
	Now, fortunately, I have, well, very fortunately, I have no relationship with your parents, so pointing out their moral failings and moral corruption is pretty easy for me.
	I'm not going to get cut out of the inheritance or have to have any awkward family dinners at Thanksgiving or Christmas, right?
	So, that's why.
	And this is why the extended family doesn't knock on your door and say, hey, man, what's going on?
	You seem kind of quiet, or let's talk about, like, you have this social nervousness.
	It's almost like for them, it just became the norm.
	He's just an introverted guy, so just the way he is, I guess, there's nothing to do about it.
	That's my viewpoint on the way they're thinking about the situation.
	Yes, but I'm always a little bit suspicious when people's perspectives happen to serve their immediate short-term self-interest.
	Like, okay, well, if we think that you are just mysteriously introverted, there's nothing we can do about it, then nobody has to show you sympathy or ask about how bad your childhood was.
	Yeah.
	Now, does anyone else other than, I guess your two younger brothers would know this, is there anyone else who knew that you were being mistreated as a child?
	Anyone else in the extended family?
	No, because it was mainly just kept at home.
	We didn't talk about it whenever we went outside of the house and stuff like that.
	It's almost like it's just shoving the stuff under the rug.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	So, did anyone ever ask or be concerned or curious about the fact that you were so quiet and hid in your room alone?
	Yeah, I've had some friends and whatnot that...
	No, no.
	Sorry.
	Within the family first.
	Oh, within the family?
	No.
	Right.
	They just all accepted that that's the way I am.
	I'm just introverted.
	Okay, so did your parents ever say why are you in your room so much?
	Well, at times there were times when they were curious and said, hey, you need to get out of your room and actually do something as a whole as a family.
	But whenever I try and do that, it's...
	In a way, I feel like I'm trapped.
	Like, I can't do anything.
	I feel like I can't say anything because it's like there's not a connection, if you know what I mean.
	Right.
	Well, and they're just criticizing the symptoms, right?
	Basically, get out of your room, go touch grass or whatever, right?
	Without saying, why do you think you're in your room so much?
	Just out of a genuine curiosity, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, so is it my understanding, and sorry, did your parents say or imply that, well, you're just introverted, that's just the way you are?
	No, they never said that, but, by the way, they would act when I'm around them, because, you know, the actions, I know you know this, actions speak louder than words.
	Sure.
	So, from my viewpoint, I was just seeing that, yeah, they just accept me being introverted and whatnot.
	Like, oh, that's the way he is, so...
	Okay, so your nature is to be introverted according to your family?
	Yes, pretty much.
	Okay, so as far as I understand it, your social nervousness, your introversion, your hiding in your room, that's just your nature, like you're born that way.
	But every disagreement with your parents is not because you're born that way, but because you're voluntarily choosing to be disrespectful or talk back or whatever, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So everything that they have caused is just your nature, but all of your disagreements are free will and your choice.
	Yeah.
	So that's kind of contradictory, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Right?
	They could as easily say, well, if you backtalk, you're just argumentative by nature, so we shouldn't punish you.
	It's just who you are.
	Mm-hmm.
	So whenever the effects of their neglect and abuse show up, it's just randomly ascribed to your deep essential nature or whatever it is.
	But then when there's something they don't like about you that they want to get angry at and punish, then suddenly human nature goes out the window and everything is 100% your responsibility.
	Yeah.
	So that's not good.
	So nobody in your immediate or extended family has ever talked to you about your childhood.
	Is that right?
	Right.
	So, that means that you're very isolated.
	Yeah, you're isolated.
	You carry that room around you, your childhood room around you, like a box, like a prison cell.
	Like, it doesn't really leave, because even when you're in around other people, you're kind of still in that box, because you're very separated from them, because nobody talks to you about anything real.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right.
	What's your dating life been like?
	My dating?
	Yeah.
	Oh my gosh.
	Sorry for the whiplash there.
	We're changing topics.
	I should have a horn.
	Hey, you know what?
	I should get a bugle and play that.
	Or a trumpet.
	Okay.
	So yeah, how has the dating life gone as a whole?
	I just got done with the relationship probably five days ago.
	Oh, how long was that?
	How long was it?
	Yeah.
	Like a month and a half.
	Oh, okay.
	But the thing is, going back to what I was saying earlier, when you have two introverted people together trying to hold conversations, it doesn't really work well.
	And knowing that relationships, it's hugely about communication.
	Well, do you think that I find you to be hard to talk to?
	No.
	I mean, maybe a little bit at the beginning, just as we were getting to know each other.
	I get extremely nervous.
	I don't know.
	I'm sorry, what?
	No, you go ahead.
	I don't know.
	Maybe it's just like the fact that when I'm in front of girls, I get extremely nervous.
	That's why it's hard for me to talk or like talk about certain topics and conversations.
	Sorry.
	Why do you think you get nervous in front of girls?
	Because of my mom.
	Good.
	The way I was treated growing up.
	Yeah, because of the way I was treated growing up.
	So, in my mind, it leaves a distorted picture on how it actually should really be.
	Right, right.
	Well, it's not just your mom.
	It's all the females in your immediate and extended family who Who ignored how you were being mistreated as a child.
	It's not just only your mom, it's all of the people who enabled and excuse and avoid your mom's bad behavior.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	So, just don't give me names, but how many females...
	Who were older than you were there around in your immediate and extended family when you were growing up?
	Was it like 5 or 10 or 15 or fewer or more?
	You're talking that lived inside the house that I lived in or just like in general?
	People who would come to family gatherings that you maybe go to the beach with Thanksgiving, Christmas, you know, aunts, uncles, grandparents, like how many females were around?
	Probably say like Six.
	Or six.
	Right.
	Okay, so you've got six females who are around.
	Now, does that include your mom?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Yeah, six females who are around, one of whom is severely mistreating you, and the other five are doing nothing about it and have never referenced it at all, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Now, of course, the reason why your mother mistreated you, to a large degree, Was because she knew that everyone around her would let her get away with it.
	They wouldn't call her out on it.
	And they wouldn't do nothing about it.
	Well, yeah, they would ignore it, they would cover it up, right?
	I mean, it's pretty easy to steal from a store if you know for an absolute fact that the cameras are broken and none of the security guards are going to do anything about it.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	Then you just walk in and take stuff, right?
	So...
	You were neglected and abused because of the females.
	Now, of course, the males too, right?
	The males too.
	I'm not trying to let them off the hook.
	No, it wasn't males.
	My dad was there, but he was kind of out of the picture.
	He was working all the time.
	So all of the discipline and everything came from my mom.
	And did your parents get along?
	Yeah.
	Of course, they have the arguments, like every relationship does, but other than that, you have the cat along.
	Okay.
	And did your father know how you were being mistreated by your mother?
	Yes.
	But I don't know, in my mind, I don't know if that's just the way they know how to parent, or what?
	No, no, no.
	I'm not going back to excuse land here.
	I'm just trying to know the reasoning of different things.
	That's why I'm saying that.
	Do your parents have modern phones?
	you Thank you.
	Like, do they have touchscreen phones?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, they didn't grow up with touchscreen phones, right?
	No.
	So, they're willing to learn new things, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So there are tens of thousands of books on parenting, right?
	None of which ever say, insult your kids, yell at your kids, and make them press their noses against the wall for a whole day.
	So they're willing to learn new things.
	Do they have a flat-screen TV? Yes.
	Right.
	Did they grow up with a flat-screen TV? No.
	No.
	Oh, look at that.
	They've learned how to deal with a flat-screen TV. So they're all happy and willing to learn new things.
	So saying that that's all they knew how to do is their choice.
	They chose not to learn and do better, right?
	Yeah, because in the end it all depends on the choice you make.
	Yep, and they didn't do it in public.
	So it meant that they were perfectly able to not yell at you and not hit you, right?
	It wasn't like epilepsy where you don't have a choice, you just have a seizure, right?
	Yeah.
	So they were fully able to control their temper.
	They just chose not to control their temper at home when they couldn't be caught, right?
	I don't know if you've ever seen these videos of some, like there's a lineup and there's some guy steals a wallet.
	There's a camera, right?
	And then there's some guy steals the wallet from the guy in front of him, looks up, notices the camera, and then it's like, oh, so sorry.
	And he puts the wallet back, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And so he's perfectly able to not steal.
	The moment he sees he's on camera, he decides not to steal, right?
	He puts it back and, oh, I'm so sorry, right?
	But he didn't suddenly find morality.
	He just was afraid of getting caught, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Thank you.
	So, your parents are the same way.
	In public, they were nice.
	In private, they were brutal.
	And so, they're fully responsible for what they did in private because they were good parents in public and bad parents in private.
	So, they knew what to do because that's what they did when people were around, right?
	They were nicer.
	So, let's not go back to excuse land, right?
	So, did your father know how your mother was mistreating you?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And did your father also mistreat you?
	No.
	Because all of the discipline was from my mom.
	If I get in trouble and then my dad would be like, all right, go see your mom.
	Oh, so your father would send you to your mother knowing that you were going to get hit or yelled at or make your nose against the wall.
	Sorry, is that right?
	Yeah.
	Sorry, there was a long pause there.
	I wasn't sure.
	I know, yeah.
	The fact of you saying that, in my mind, I was like, oh, that is a red flag, huge red flag.
	Go on.
	Yeah, so tell me, what are you thinking about with regards to your father with that connection?
	What do I think, what?
	So, because there was a long pause there where you suddenly realized, damn, Dad sent me to the wood chipper, right?
	What are your thoughts about that?
	I feel like in a way, he didn't know everything that was going on because there were times that he...
	No, nobody can know everything that's going on, right?
	So that's a false standard.
	Okay.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	That's a tough question to answer.
	You know, no, it's not that tough.
	I mean, he knew that if he sent you to your mom...
	Okay, so let's say you did something wrong and your dad was around.
	Would he tell your mom?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So he would tell your mom and then...
	Your mom would punish you, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, so your father caused that punishment because he knew that by telling your mom and sending to your mom, you would get punished, right?
	Yeah.
	So he did mistreat you.
	He fully supported and informed upon you, right?
	Like if you, let's say that you're with some friend, right?
	you And let's just, I guess this is a silly example, but I just sort of want to make the point, right?
	So you're with your friend, and you're really hungry, and you've got no money, and you steal a loaf of bread, right?
	And then on the way out, your friend says to the security guard, hey man, he's stealing the bread.
	And then you get in real trouble, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, your friend says, hey man, I didn't punish you.
	Do you think your friend is innocent of anything to do with being punished?
	He basically did punish you at that point because he was irresponsible.
	Because he knew what was going to happen if he squealed on you for stealing the bread.
	So your father ratted on you to the enforcer knowing exactly what was going to happen.
	So he's a co-abuser.
	And you were surrounded either by aggressive women or women who enabled or allowed the aggression to continue and never said anything.
	And you're in your mid-twenties now and nobody said anything about anything.
	You're just left to carry this burden of this mysterious social nervousness.
	It's not mysterious at all, is it?
	No.
	If you get attacked...
	Well, here's the thing, too.
	It's one thing to get attacked by a pit bull in your house, or two pit bulls in this case.
	It's one thing to get attacked by pit bulls in your house.
	It's quite another thing to get attacked by pit bulls in your house while everyone's around and nobody does a damn thing about it.
	Well, no, that's the thing.
	It's like...
	Even when everyone was around for, like, the holidays and whatnot, like, nothing would happen.
	I'd basically just be, like, sitting there.
	It's only when it was just, like...
	Me and my mom or me and my brothers and my mom and I got in trouble.
	And your dad.
	And then that's when the hammer came down.
	Right.
	But here's the thing.
	If someone stabs me and nobody at the table sees the stabbing and all they see is the bleeding, do they get to say, well, I didn't see any stabbing?
	Like, I'm literally bleeding out at the table, right?
	So the fact that you're, quote, shy and introverted and frightened and don't say anything and don't participate, all of that is signs of trauma.
	But then why wouldn't they address the issue or ask why, like, don't talk?
	Well, okay, so...
	Is it because it's going to be a misconvenience on their end?
	Well, it's going to be messy and it's going to be difficult.
	And maybe they're bad parents themselves.
	Maybe this is kind of like a criminal gang where nobody informs on anyone else.
	Is one member of the mafia going to say to the other member of the mafia, hey, you might be a bad guy, because he's like, you're in the same club, you're in the same gang.
	Sorry, you were saying something else and I rudely overspoke, I apologize.
	That's fine.
	I kind of lost my train of thought there.
	My apologies.
	If it comes back, feel free to interrupt me as much as you want.
	Okay.
	I'll do that.
	Yeah, so generally it's because nobody wants to call each other out on anything because the bad people are running the show and nobody wants to contradict them.
	And the relationships are based upon mutual corruption and the enablement of bad behavior, maybe even evil, right?
	Yeah.
	So nobody wants to call anyone out because they're all, you know, it's like if you're in the same boat out at sea, you don't want to drill a hole in the bottom of the boat because everyone goes into the water.
	So they're all colluding that way.
	And let me ask you this, right?
	And I'm not saying what you should or shouldn't do, because I don't know, right?
	But let's say, when do you guys next get together?
	Is it like Thanksgiving?
	No.
	Unfortunately, I have to work on Thanksgiving, so it's going to be Christmas.
	Okay.
	And we're going to have the whole entire family.
	Okay, so let's say you got 20 people around the table or whatever it is, 15 people around the table at Christmas, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And you say, oh, everyone, I need to say a couple of things here.
	You may have noticed that I'm kind of shy, kind of retired, don't say anything, don't talk about anything.
	But there's a reason for that.
	And the reason is that I was hit by my parents' A lot.
	A couple of times a month for...
	Verbally abused in a way, making it to where I feel like I don't belong.
	In a way, it makes me feel like an outcast.
	Right.
	And if you would, I don't want to give you a speech for you, so take over if you want, but it'd be something like, yeah, and my mother forced me to stand with my nose pressed against the wall for an entire day.
	My bladder was killing me.
	My back was killing me.
	That's like a tortuous stress position that you couldn't even put an enemy soldier into.
	And that angers me.
	It angers me.
	It hurts me.
	And y'all, every one of you around this table, look at me.
	Look at me in the eye.
	Every one of you around this table, let it happen.
	And you saw that I was shy and broken, that I was not able to say anything to anyone.
	And you also knew that I was adopted, so I might need some extra help to really feel part of the family.
	And you all just let me be tortured and abused and hit and insulted.
	And nobody said anything.
	And now I'm in my mid-twenties and nobody's ever said anything.
	What have you got to say for yourselves?
	Like, I'm literally hiding in my room because of the violence and neglect of my parents.
	Most of my childhood.
	And they'll say, well, we didn't know.
	It's obvious.
	You can tell by the way.
	Yeah, you can tell by the way.
	Did I make eye contact?
	Did I appear happy?
	Come on, man.
	You can't claim you didn't know that there was anything wrong.
	Oh, we just thought that was your nature.
	It's like, but why didn't you ask?
	Because that seems like a pretty important thing to ask about.
	Mm-hmm.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	So nobody asked, and they're responsible for that, right?
	Now, if you made a speech like that, and again, whether you should or shouldn't do that, I don't know.
	I'm just saying, if you made a speech like that, about how badly treated you were by the family, and in particular by your parents, would people get mad at your parents or you?
	Probably me, because I have a higher respect for my parents than they do me.
	That's just fear.
	Well, yeah.
	Right.
	So if you told the truth and called people out on their corruption, they would get mad at you, not your parents.
	Because that's on their end.
	They're putting on the self-defense mode, whether or not if they know they're in the wrong or if they're right.
	So you can't be honest with your family without being attacked?
	No.
	Right.
	Which also explains another reason why I've never brought it up.
	That's probably the reason why they never brought it up because they don't want to face the conflict and everything and ruin a holiday that we're all supposedly having fun doing.
	Right.
	So, the problem you have, if I can be so bold as to say, and I don't know for sure, this is just a theory, right, is that you can't be honest with your family.
	But the only way you can have a sustainable relationship as an adult, whether it's friendship or romance or maybe even work, is to be honest.
	So, if honesty is punished for you brutally, When you were growing up, which is why you never told anyone about how mistreated you were.
	If you are punished, then you are frightened of being honest because honesty leads to disaster.
	But the only way that you can have adult relationships that are sustained is based on honesty.
	So the reason why it's tough for you to talk to people is because honesty is Is punished and you're averse to honesty for reasons that make total sense to me.
	I'm not calling you dishonest.
	I'm just saying that honesty would have been really dangerous and bad for you as a kid, right?
	So as an adult, the way that you engage with people who are good, decent, moral people is you're honest, right?
	But if honesty has been severely punished in you, like beaten out of you in a sense, Then you have a juggling act where you try to keep people's interest, but you can't be honest and direct with them.
	And so that's really stressful, isn't it?
	Yeah, it's extremely, yeah.
	Really, really stressful.
	Right.
	So it's not like some weird social nervousness problem.
	It's like, well, you have a contradiction that you want to be honest with people because that's how you keep their attention.
	Right.
	And how you get them interested in you, because people want to get to know, like, good people want to get to know the real you, but if you've been punished for being real...
	Then they won't be interested anymore.
	Oh, this guy's got too much.
	I'm so sorry, go ahead.
	I don't know, because you said they would want to get to know, like, the true real me, but then it's like, if I be honest with them and actually tell me the true real me, some of them, they'd be like, oh, this guy has too much problems he has to deal with, and I'd Don't want to be a part of that.
	Well, you are not to blame for how you were raised.
	You didn't choose the family you were born to.
	You didn't choose the family you were adopted into.
	You were just a kid being handed around like a sack of potatoes or a football, right?
	Yeah.
	So you have no responsibility for how you were raised.
	You were just trying to survive in a particular situation, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	That'd be like, I'm born in Ireland.
	That'd be like, I am so magnificent and wonderful for being born in Ireland.
	It's like, I didn't choose that.
	That's just where the egg happened to drop, right?
	Yeah.
	So if you say, listen, I was born into a bad situation and I'm doing my best to deal with it, but whatever.
	A good person would never blame you for that.
	I hope that I've not held you even a tiny bit responsible.
	For how you were punished or treated as a child.
	It's not your fault.
	You didn't choose your parents.
	You just tried to survive in the situation like we all do.
	You tried to survive in the situation you were born into, right?
	And you did a great job.
	Honestly, you did a great job, right?
	You've got to adulthood.
	You can have these kinds of conversations.
	We can be pretty frank and direct with each other.
	So good people will have sympathy for you.
	And good people will recognize that most people have struggles like this of one kind or another, honestly.
	Like, even if your parents were good, a lot of times they'll put you in government schools that propagandize you into, like, self-hatred, right?
	Or the media trains you into, you know, hating success or virtue or whatever it is, right?
	So, we all have our struggles.
	And even if you raise your kids absolutely perfectly, their struggle is then how the hell do they fit into a society full of half-lunatics, right?
	Yeah.
	So everyone has their difficulties.
	So if you're honest about your difficulties, I mean, yeah, there'll be some people who will be like, and they tend to be very cruel and mean and nasty people, who'll be like, whoa, you got too many issues, man.
	I'm not getting involved with your mess.
	And it's like, well, that's just a cruel one-upmanship pretending that I'm perfect and you are just weird.
	You don't want those people in your life anyway.
	Like, honesty draws good people to you and repels nasty little trolls.
	Which probably explains why I can't really draw the good people to me because I'm in a way too afraid to be honest.
	Sure, and it's not cowardice.
	It's a survival mechanism.
	Yeah.
	That was basically molded into my personality ever since I was a little kid growing up.
	Right.
	You were always punished for honesty and you were rewarded for lying.
	Now, and then, of course, sometimes you were punished for being dishonest, even though you were also punished for being honest.
	So this probably has to do with why your relationship was six weeks, right?
	Yes.
	Because can you be honest and direct with a woman and show her the real you?
	No.
	Right.
	So then she can't really connect.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Also, in a way, it's because she was also, like, really introverted.
	It's like I'd say something, and then it's like she gave me like a one, two word, or maybe a short sentence answer, and then it's like, uh, okay, well.
	Okay, but you know, right, after this conversation, you know what to do now, right, if you come across an introverted woman.
	Yeah, just gotta be open and honest and, yeah.
	Tell me about your childhood.
	Yeah.
	Right, and you don't have any problem with this kind of conversation, right?
	Yeah.
	And if you're genuinely curious and open and sympathetic, some woman, right, she's not going to just, oh, no, my childhood was great, how dare you ask me, right?
	She's going to be like, oh, yeah, you know, I've spent a lot of time alone, and I felt kind of rejected, and, like, she's just going to be honest about it, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, that's how this happens.
	So the reason that you guys couldn't connect is that you were both trying to Avoid the central topic, which is, you know, bad childhoods lead to social nervousness.
	And if you can't talk about the bad childhood and sort of understand the cause and effect that way, then you end up not connecting on that level.
	But then what level can you connect on if you're denying your history?
	Can't really connect on anything at that point.
	Do you think that might have been why it didn't last too long?
	Yes, I had a feeling that was a huge reason why.
	Right.
	Right.
	She was basically kind of in the same boat I was growing up.
	I'm sure she was.
	And listen, I don't know if you're still in contact with her, but even if it doesn't, you know, resurrect or deal with or solve the relationship, it might well be worth, you know, just giving her a call and saying, you know, I know we didn't really connect too much.
	You were pretty shy and all of that.
	You know, do you think that, like, tell me a little bit about your childhood.
	And, you know, I mean, people aren't super mysterious in a lot of ways.
	If someone's shy, like, we're not born...
	I mean, I know that there may be some genetic aspects to...
	I mean, most aspects of personality have some genetic basis, but not to that extent, right?
	So, usually shy people are shy because they're surrounded by cruel people.
	And it makes sense to be shy.
	Like, I can't relax if I'm walking through the lion's den or if there are pit bulls around, right?
	It's not some weird psychological disorder.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Which explains the reason why normally, like, shy and introverted people, they open up, but they have to be around the right people.
	Yes.
	I saw, like, a quote.
	I'm basically paraphrasing that quote, but...
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	And nobody's an introvert if they're really listened to, right?
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, so how many of these sort of relationships have you had?
	Or, let me ask it another way, what's the longest relationship you've had romantically?
	That was probably it, like the month and a half.
	Okay, and how many of these shorter relationships have you had?
	Two that were way shorter than that.
	Yeah, so that's the challenge, right?
	Which is, how do you connect with people who are shy?
	Well, you talk about how their shyness came about.
	But that means to criticize parents, which...
	You know, I mean, certainly in the Christian context, right?
	Honor thy mother and thy father.
	And are you a Christian man?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So honor thy mother and thy father is an important commandment.
	And it goes along with another commandment, thou shalt not bear false witness.
	So you honor your mother and your father by telling them the truth.
	About your experiences, about your childhood, about the good and bad of what they did.
	Even if it's going to end negatively?
	Well, the commandment, thou shalt not bear false witness, doesn't have an asterisk on it.
	It doesn't say, well, as long as it's going to end well, thou shalt not bear false witness.
	False witness is an important, it's a legal term to some degree, right?
	Which is, it doesn't, you know, if somebody is wearing a dress that's not too flattering and you say it looks fine, that's not a big deal.
	But false witness is like about legal and moral matters, right?
	So, yeah, it means don't lie about important matters of morals.
	And it doesn't say, I mean, can you imagine if Jesus had said, well, you know, but if I follow my path, it could end badly.
	Well, it did end badly, right?
	I mean, I got crucified, right?
	So he said, tell the truth, though the skies fall, right?
	Tell the truth and shame the devil.
	And he didn't say, tell the truth only if people are going to applaud you for it, or make sure you lie if telling the truth might have potentially negative consequences for bad people.
	So, yeah, honor thy mother and thy father.
	You're not honoring them by lying to them.
	You're dishonoring them by saying they can't handle the truth.
	Now, maybe they can or can't, I don't know, but that's not up to you.
	It's not up to you to make that decision.
	It's up to you to tell the truth, and if people get really freaked out because you're telling the truth, that's on them, right?
	It's not your responsibility to withhold the truth from people in case they get upset.
	It serves It's up to them on how they're going to react to it.
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, it's like if you have a coach and you're doing something wrong, it might be mildly upsetting for the coach to tell you how to do it better, but that's the coach's job.
	He doesn't get there and say, well, but if I tell him he's doing it badly, he could end up as a school shooter.
	And it's like, yeah, but, you know, we can almost frighten ourselves out of telling the truth with some horrible, End result, or whatever, right?
	But that's just an excuse, right?
	I mean, that's why we don't give ourselves those excuses, because then we can always frighten ourself with some negative consequence into doing the wrong thing and not being honest, right?
	So what do you think of the conversation as a whole so far?
	Thank you.
	I enjoy it.
	Definitely helped me see things differently through a different perspective in ways I've never thought of before.
	So that's a huge plus.
	Good, good, good.
	Well, I mean, that's most of what I wanted to get across.
	Christ, is there anything else that you wanted to say at the old end here?
	Hello?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	I'm sorry, I didn't catch anything that you said.
	Oh, no.
	I thought you were still saying something, but then it sounded like I lost you for a second.
	No, that's a reasonable expectation, but no, not this time.
	I'm sorry, I was just saying, is this anything that you wanted to mention at the end of the conversation?
	Oh, no.
	I can't think of anything right off the top of my head at the moment.
	Okay, well listen, I really do appreciate your time today.
	You did a fantastic job and I'm really, really sorry for everything you suffered as a child.
	In general, I'm a big fan of honesty, but, you know, that's obviously your choice to make, depending on what your circumstances are.
	I'm a big fan of talk therapy.
	If you can get a hold of that, that probably is a good idea, and you can absolutely solve all of this, and you can have a great life.
	It's just going to take time.
	It's going to take some time, but, you know, it's usually, if you've identified the issues, that's 90% of the work, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, you can just drop the message in the Skype window, and I really, really do appreciate your time today.
	And again, massive sympathies, and I certainly wish you the best going forward.
	I think I appreciate it.
	Thanks, man.
	Take care.
	All right.
	You too.

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