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Nov. 23, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:43:27

My Husband Uses Me for SEX! Freedomain Call In

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Time	Text
	Okay, so the topic.
	Parenting, overwhelm, and a failing marriage.
	I don't want to yell anymore.
	Details.
	I am six months postpartum with baby number three, oldest just turning four.
	My body is so depleted and I'm so overwhelmed and have crazy moments emotionally.
	I hate myself for yelling at my kids to clean up, don't climb, or touch things, etc.
	I flip and I hate it so much.
	I'm a Christ follower and generally...
	Happy person, but I want to dig into my broken childhood more and wrong mindsets, etc.
	to be healed.
	I hate yelling and so afraid I'm damaging my kids like I was.
	My marriage sucks.
	My husband constantly chooses porn and masturbation, which we view as a sin, and knows the steps to take, people to talk to, to deal with his junk.
	He doesn't take personal responsibility, and whenever I express how I don't feel loved or hurt, etc., he shuts down and turns it back on me.
	Gaslights me, making it my problem.
	He's constantly sarcastic and derogatory, and I just feel used by him.
	Besides providing for us and helping us with the kids, some on the weekends, like he works nights, which I hate.
	I absolutely don't think he is for me or loves me.
	Just what I do for him.
	Yet he wonders why I don't want to have sex when he doesn't hear...
	When he doesn't hear me and says crap like, do your duty and suck it.
	What the heck?
	I'm just hurt and angry at him.
	My friend who listens to your show told me, I need to try to get on a call with you.
	She said the real people I need to get angry at are my parents.
	And until I dig out that root, I'll just keep getting mad at the wrong people like my kids, which she learned from you.
	And my husband too.
	I actually only listened to one episode and I had various revelations.
	I realize that I do have crazy, unrealistic expectations for my kids.
	And deep down, I think I believe no one is for me.
	And people are trying to hurt me.
	People, like, I'm not truly loved.
	People keep rejecting me.
	It's hard to deal with some of this when my husband doesn't, he does this on a daily basis.
	I know my kids aren't trying to hurt me by making a mess when I just worked hard to clean it, etc.
	They're just playing like kids should.
	But maybe I feel that deep down.
	I get so triggered and I wasn't taught emotional regulation.
	I want to learn.
	I want to not live or think like a victim.
	I want to dig up whatever is causing me to be so triggered at a drop of a hat.
	I want a good marriage and to respect my husband.
	I don't want a divorce.
	I don't want to think it's all about me, like a twisted version of selfishness, thinking like a victim.
	Ugh, I feel so crazy in moments, feeling like I need Zoloft or something, but I hate the thought of that.
	I'm trying various natural remedies for giving my body what it needs, but not much is working.
	My husband even gaslit me just now.
	Earlier, he said he wanted to have some cuddles and talk.
	Maybe when the kids go to bed.
	Nope.
	He said not at 1130 at night.
	Yet during the week, he expects me to wake up at 3am to spend time with him because that's the best time for him.
	Ben makes it my fault because I didn't wake up.
	Like, are you kidding me?
	He just doesn't want to deal with stuff.
	And I told him I was going to leave for two hours in the morning to a coffee shop for alone time, which the only time I've gotten any sort of break is when his parents babysit.
	It's like pulling teeth for me to get a 20-minute bath alone one time a week.
	He says it's my job and I was made for it.
	I am a stay-at-home mom, but I'm allowed to have a break.
	And when I just told him I was leaving for two hours, which I normally don't unless it's a doctor's appointment or grocery shopping, which isn't a true break, he asked if I need drugs, like antidepressants.
	I might, but I am allowed a break.
	I literally want to go to the coffee shop and read my Bible and journal and recharge some.
	I feel like any I feel like a godly husband, like he claims and pretends to be happy.
	I would want to do that.
	It's hard to stay joyful with my husband the way he is.
	I've done inner healing prayer, some counseling from my pastor.
	We've done marriage retreats and intensive counseling weekends.
	I've done women's retreats and classes.
	I'm trying to read self-help books, etc.
	I just don't know what to do.
	I hate the way I feel inside when overwhelmed and get frustrated so easily.
	How can I deal with my junk and be with the best mom I can be, even if my marriage sucks?
	That's quite a tale, and I really appreciate that.
	That's really raw honesty.
	I also appreciate the trust you have in your friend to call me.
	That's quite a journey to take.
	Just talk to some guy on the internet who's supposed to be able to help, and I do appreciate your friend, and I'm sure we can do some great work together.
	And I guess, how do you feel about reading that?
	Like, it's still true.
	Like, reading out loud helps process in a way.
	Yes, but those aren't feelings.
	How do you feel?
	Do you feel nervous, scared, excited, happy, sad, angry?
	Or yes, to all of the above?
	Yeah.
	Like, I don't feel, like, super emotional.
	In this moment, like I did when I was writing that, like, some moments are just so, like, crazy, like, outside myself, like, I'm bawling and stuff, and the, you know, I read it, and I do feel emotion, but, um, like, I feel okay today, even though my husband hasn't talked to me, and whatever.
	Okay.
	I'm nervous for what you're going to suggest to me.
	Oh, don't be nervous.
	I'm a teddy bear.
	I'm such a nice guy.
	You won't believe it.
	All right.
	Oh, I am hopeful.
	But I think there's a hard, hard decision that needs to be made.
	And I don't want to go there, but I want to be well.
	Right, right.
	How old are your kids?
	Four, two and six months.
	Right.
	So, you know, six years you've been sleep deprived?
	No, I mean, that's how they break people down, right?
	It's a torture.
	I was just talking with a mom this morning.
	Her kid last night got up 10 times, her baby.
	So, no, I mean, there's just a certain amount of, like, having kids, especially if they're, like, awake kids.
	Like, my daughter was, like, an awake kid, never wanted to go to bed, and was up, you know, half a dozen or a dozen times a night.
	And sometimes you just get those hardwired kids that are just up kids.
	Do your kids sleep okay, or how's that?
	The first two...
	We're up a lot.
	And my third now sleeps pretty good.
	She just wakes up twice.
	I do nurse her.
	That's good.
	So God pulled you back from the brink with the third one.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	So how much sleep are you getting at night?
	We're night owls and I always wake up to go to the bathroom even if the kid doesn't need me.
	Well, you've had baby's feet on your bladder for like half a decade.
	It actually was like that before, kids.
	Oh, okay.
	But, I don't know, eight-ish.
	Oh, okay.
	So the sleep is not too, too bad, right?
	Right now, it's okay.
	I never have felt that I can wake up rested, though, which is...
	That and daily headaches that I've been trying to figure out for a couple decades is a mystery.
	Like headaches?
	Like not migraines, right?
	But like not like lie in a dark room with a cold towel on your head stuff, but just like headaches?
	More so headaches.
	I've had migraines, but it's just a dull headache.
	It can be worse, but I've just learned to deal with it.
	Yeah, my wife has a headache.
	I'll sometimes leave the room and see if she feels better.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	All right.
	So, and have you done, like, blood work and all that kind of funky stuff to check the blood and levels and hormones and things?
	And all the things.
	Style specialist.
	I haven't, you know, tried different supplements.
	Diets.
	Not much has helped until...
	Okay, good.
	I'm glad that that's eliminated because obviously I'm just a philosophy guy, so I can't do much about that.
	Okay, so tell me about your childhood, my young friend.
	I was born on a wedlock.
	My parents were like 19. And they got a divorce.
	My brother is 15 months younger than me.
	They got a divorce, I think, when he was a baby.
	My dad remarried.
	I've learned in my adult life that my mom was on drugs.
	And I don't know.
	What kind of drugs?
	Hang on.
	What kind of drugs?
	I don't know.
	My dad recently told me the last couple years that she kind of went a little crazy.
	And my mom did Just tell me that she tried to commit suicide by taking pills.
	I'm sorry if I missed that.
	What drugs was she on?
	I'm not sure.
	Pain pills or something.
	Okay, like Oxy or something like that, right?
	Some sort of opiate?
	Wow.
	And how old were you when she tried to kill herself, according to your dad, right?
	According to my dad, I think I was like a baby.
	Wow.
	So does he say that she was taking drugs while she was breastfeeding you?
	No, she was smoking at least.
	She went into labor buying cigarettes because my dad didn't want to buy her cigarettes because she was pregnant.
	Wow.
	Okay, so your parents split up.
	Your dad got remarried.
	What happened with your mom and her dating life or romantic life?
	My mom's always dated somebody.
	She dated somebody for like 10 years.
	Growing up, his daughter was a lot younger than me.
	She was like a sister.
	They dated, yeah, like 10 years-ish.
	But they were just using each other.
	He was using her for babysitter, and she was using him for a house because she filed bankruptcy for bankruptcy.
	Now, you kind of have, and look, I understand why, but you do kind of have a chuckle when you're talking about this stuff.
	Mm-hmm.
	But it's seriously not funny, right?
	I mean, this is like really disastrous stuff to grow up with.
	Yeah.
	And it's common, right?
	I don't know if the show you listen to, but it's common that people sort of invite me into dark comedy land when talking about terrible childhoods.
	But it's really dark, right?
	I mean, drug addiction, suicidality, and bankruptcy.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	My dad was an alcoholic.
	For how long?
	Still is.
	Oh, he still is?
	How bad?
	But very frustrating.
	Like, he goes to work every day.
	He's the hardest worker I know, but...
	Not on sobriety, he's not.
	Yeah.
	So how bad is his...
	I mean, how many drinks does he have a day?
	Oh.
	Growing up, I feel like he would drink like a case of beer.
	Half a case to a case.
	A day?
	Probably.
	Holy pickled brain, Batman, that's astounding.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	He would wake up and go to work every day.
	Right.
	I mean, I guess the body can get used to just about anything, but that's wild.
	So from when he was in his teens until now...
	He's been like a ferocious alcoholic, right?
	Wow.
	Okay, so who did you stay with more after they separated?
	My dad.
	And then I remember feeling they asked us when I was like five years old who we want to live with, which I've always felt like that was a horrible thing.
	Like, how can you ask a five-year-old to choose that?
	Right, right.
	But I think I lived with my dad and my stepmom.
	But I hated it.
	My stepmom was abusive.
	How so?
	She just hated us and was super mean.
	She was a little physical with my brother.
	I had some...
	We pushed each other a couple times, but that was when I was an adult.
	Yeah.
	She just would talk bad about my mom, which we never liked.
	But then in high school, we chose to live with my mom because we eventually drove and could get away from my stepmom.
	Okay.
	So for the most part, how much did you see your dad when you were growing up?
	Sorry, your mom.
	How much did you see your mom when you were growing up?
	It's hard to remember details like that.
	But I think it was more like every other weekend with my dad in high school.
	Okay.
	But my mom, even though she was never there.
	Oh, even when you were over, she wasn't there?
	Yeah, which our teenage selves probably, we liked that because we didn't have rules.
	And we did what we wanted because my mom worked nights.
	Right.
	And how did your parents discipline you if they disciplined you or if you did something they didn't like?
	I don't remember.
	I feel like...
	I don't remember being disciplined like that.
	And as a teenager, that's when I started going to church by myself.
	I would even tell my mom, Mom, I don't want, say, my boyfriend to spend the night.
	I don't want to do that.
	But I will try.
	I will just fall asleep or not tell you.
	Like, I would tell her my tactics.
	But deep down, I didn't want to do...
	Sorry, tactics for what?
	I want my boyfriend to spend the night, but a part of me wanted to not live that way.
	Sure.
	To care about you enough to give you some structure and some rules.
	I would tell her, this is what I need you to do, so I don't keep doing that, and she wouldn't.
	So I would try to teach her how to parent me and hold me accountable, but she wouldn't.
	Well, she lacks self-discipline, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, how are you supposed to discipline others if you don't have self-discipline yourself, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And your dad also, was he mostly indifferent or were there any rules there?
	My stepmom, probably more so.
	All I remember is her making us do her homework or eat our food, sit at the table for hours.
	Besides that, I don't remember anything.
	Okay, so you weren't hit.
	People didn't call you mean names like selfish or bitch or dumb or like, so you didn't get that verbal or physical?
	My dad called me a couple names.
	Yeah, like on two different occasions.
	What did he call you?
	He called me a cunt, which is Okay, you're doing that laughter thing again?
	Like, that's terrible.
	I mean, I have a daughter myself, and it's incomprehensible that any father would say anything like that.
	Yeah.
	I think it's a laugh, maybe.
	I'm sorry?
	And it's ridiculous that stuff happened.
	It's probably just like a nervous laugh.
	So he called you that and what else did he say?
	He probably did call me a bitch.
	Okay.
	When I was a little older.
	Sure.
	Thank you.
	Okay.
	Did you have much interaction with your parents?
	Did they play with you?
	Did they take you to the park?
	Did they play games with you?
	How did it work between you and your parents when you were over?
	My mom I had more fun with.
	She would take us to the beach.
	And her boyfriend for 10 years, he had a boat and would take us fishing and whatnot.
	And my mom would take us to the movie theater.
	So it was fun.
	In high school, we went on a couple vacations with my mom with a different boyfriend at that time.
	I always kind of...
	I felt like my mom tried to buy our love.
	So she spent a lot of money on Christmas presents and whatnot.
	And where did she get the money from?
	Was she like a high earner?
	No.
	She, well, she's been bad with money.
	She had to file bankruptcy again.
	So she's, I thought she would charge everything to her credit card.
	And I actually asked her more recently and she, At that time, she did make a little bit more money once she broke up with that guy and got her own house.
	So apparently she wasn't charging it, but she does charge a lot of things and is kind of a hoarder and whatnot.
	Okay.
	And for my dad, my favorite memories were...
	Sitting in his garage.
	He was in his garage a lot.
	And we got to sit there when he was fixing the car or something.
	Or making paths with a lawnmower.
	Pretending it's the four-wheeler.
	Because we didn't have a four-wheeler in the backyard type of thing.
	That was fun.
	We would talk.
	But he wouldn't remember those talks.
	And so there was a lot of broken promises.
	Which was the most hurtful thing.
	Like, what sort of promises?
	Oh, just like, we'll go do this or that type of thing.
	There wasn't much follow through with that.
	And he wouldn't remember the conversations.
	We'd have like a deep conversation.
	And I thought it was great.
	But...
	Yeah, he would forget it because he was drinking.
	Does he, I mean, does he know and admit that he's an alcoholic and does he ever, like, has he ever said he wants to change?
	No.
	No to which?
	Sorry, I was bad with my question.
	Sorry, he doesn't think he has a problem because he is functioning.
	Right, okay.
	No, he has his own trauma and Like, he brings stuff up when he's drunk.
	Still, like, when I was three years old, my mom got my hair without permission type of thing.
	Sorry, this is your grandmother?
	She did what?
	Mom.
	Oh, just like, my hair was really long and he liked it.
	And my mom got me a haircut.
	And my dad wasn't happy about it.
	Stuff like that still brings up.
	I mean, not super trauma.
	No.
	But he holds grudges and brings stuff up.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Doesn't let things go.
	Okay.
	Alright, so did your parents give you any decent advice when you were growing up or anything that was useful on how to live or how to make decisions or how to be wise?
	No.
	Is there anything that you remember your parents telling you when you were a kid that you still find a value to this day?
	Well, they would say stuff like follow your heart and whatnot.
	My stepmom.
	Well, that's not very helpful.
	Anything like moral?
	I mean, you're a Christian woman, right?
	So you're getting morals from the church and from the Bible, how to live, how to make good decisions.
	Did you get anything like that?
	I started going to church by myself, like a friend invited me in high school.
	Right.
	So I feel like in that way, kind of raised myself.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	I guess I feel like it just was like existing.
	I don't learn.
	I didn't learn a lot from my parents.
	Okay, and...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, except work hard.
	Yeah, okay.
	Except it being sober.
	Okay.
	All right, so...
	I don't...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I'm like, I don't ever want to drink.
	I hated alcohol.
	I hardly ever drink.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, I keep thinking you're about to say more than you to say, yeah.
	Which is fine.
	I just, that's why I keep pausing, because...
	I just jump ahead.
	Okay, so what happened with your dating or social life in your teens?
	I had friends.
	I remember in eighth grade, I became friends with somebody that wasn't good for me.
	And from there, like, I guess there was promiscuity.
	I had, well, two more long-term boyfriends in high school, but the first one was super messed up.
	He was suicidal, and I was trying to convince him to not kill himself, like, all the time.
	Do you know why he was suicidal?
	Well, he's bipolar and just hated life.
	Well, but do you know anything, did he ever talk about anything that happened in his childhood that might have contributed to his unhappiness?
	Oh, I know his parents got divorced.
	I don't remember how old he was.
	Like, I met his whole family.
	No, besides, or his mom, I think.
	His dad seemed to be like a hard worker.
	His mom was kind of not level-headed, maybe into drugs.
	And I know he was into drugs and was even bulimic.
	And he's like, here, come in the cornfield and try to puke.
	I tried once, I'm like, what the heck am I doing?
	This is dumb.
	Again, you're doing the laughter thing, which is very sad.
	You're talking about a suicidal teenager, right?
	Yeah.
	And how long did you date him for?
	Probably like two years.
	Oh my gosh.
	On and off.
	And so, from what age to what age?
	13 to 15, probably.
	13?
	Yeah.
	The hell were you dating at 13?
	Please tell me he wasn't much older.
	He was two years older.
	So he was 15 and you were 13?
	Something like that.
	Okay, did your parents give a shit about any of this?
	With some suicidal guy?
	No.
	My mom knew he was always over at my house.
	Oh, the guy was over at your house?
	Yeah.
	So your mom knew that you were dating when you were 13?
	Yeah.
	And did she do anything to vet this guy, talk to his family, ask you how things were going, check if he was okay?
	Never.
	What about your dad?
	No.
	He didn't question it.
	So they don't really give a shit, right?
	Really.
	I mean, am I wrong?
	No.
	Oh, gosh, I'm so sorry.
	This is just appalling.
	I mean, like, it's heartbreaking, my friend.
	Like, it's so sad to hear about.
	It's just absolutely, unbelievably wretched and terrible, the way you were treated as a child.
	The selfishness, the indifference, the lack of caring, the lack of safety.
	I mean, this guy could have decided to do a murder-suicide for all we know, right?
	Right?
	He would cut himself.
	Oh, he's a time bomb.
	Yeah, when we broke up, he came to my youth group and the cops were called and I was dating somebody else who was a better guy.
	But he put his poop on his car and And he would walk down my road.
	Sorry, he put his poop on his car?
	What does that mean?
	I don't know.
	To prank him?
	Oh, sorry.
	He put his poop on your boyfriend's car.
	Sorry, I thought you meant his car.
	I'm like, he crapped on his own hood.
	Okay, so he, like some sort of chimpanzee, he rubbed poop on your boyfriend's car.
	Yes.
	And he would walk down my road like a zombie.
	Like, he was in, like, clearly not taking his medicine because he was bipolar and whatnot.
	Like, totally psycho.
	And I remember I talked to him again at one point, and he showed me how he cut his arms, like, mutilated his shoulder because he was so depressed.
	We broke up and whatnot.
	And did he threaten you in order to get you to stay?
	Oh, no.
	So he didn't say, if you leave me, I'm going to cut myself or kill myself or anything?
	No, but if he hinted at that, I knew that that's not my responsibility.
	So why would this, and I'm not trying to blame you at all, right?
	I'm genuinely curious, right?
	I mean, why were you with this, like, what drew you to him and why would you, was he super good looking?
	Was there something that was a plus about him that I'm not able to see?
	Because I just see red flags everywhere.
	Right.
	I think at the time, like, he wanted me.
	Nobody ever has wanted me more than he did.
	And...
	I was helping him, so I thought, and encouraging him, I guess.
	But I mean, so, but he was a project, right?
	I mean, the guy's barely hanging on to life and sanity, right?
	Totally.
	Okay.
	And your parents, extended family, aunts, uncles, like, and nobody said to you, this may not be an ideal guy to be dating?
	Not that I recall.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you stopped dating this guy at 15?
	About that.
	It was on and off because I was going to church.
	I'm like, no, this is wrong.
	I don't want to live this way.
	Well, the guy's half demonic, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so then you date a better guy at 15 or 16. Yeah.
	He was actually a good guy.
	And when you said promiscuity, you don't have to get into big numbers here, but was it like small, medium, or lots of, like little, medium, or lots of promiscuity?
	I don't know what you mean by that.
	Well, you said, Fred, that's like a small number of guys you slept with, a medium number or a large number.
	I didn't have intercourse with anybody, but there was...
	did everything else.
	Right, okay.
	Got it.
	With those two boyfriends and then a couple others.
	Okay, got it.
	And were you drinking or doing drugs during this time?
	Never.
	Okay.
	I've never...
	I didn't drink until I was 22. Okay.
	So the next guy when you were 15 or so, how long did that one last?
	For the rest of high school.
	So about two years.
	Okay.
	And then did you or he go away to college or what happened at the end of high school?
	I went to this Christian program and we weren't allowed to date.
	So we could focus and grow.
	And that was out of state.
	So I had to break up with him for that.
	And how long was that for?
	I was there for three years.
	Oh, wow.
	So no dating for three years.
	Well, it was just for the first year.
	It was a year program, but I stayed in more of a leadership position for two other years.
	And you could date then?
	I could, yeah, but I didn't.
	Okay, so this gets you to, like, what, 21, 22?
	I think 21, I came home.
	Or was I 20?
	And were you much in touch with your parents over this time period?
	Yeah, and my mom would send me money every month, actually, for spending because it wasn't something where you could have a job.
	Actually, to make money.
	That was a huge blessing.
	And you haven't mentioned much, and I haven't asked, so that's fine, of course, but about your brother, how was your relationship with your brother growing up?
	We were close, but we fought a lot.
	In high school, there was a time we chased each other with a knife, and I remember saying horrible things like, I hate you, I wish you weren't my brother.
	Years after I asked him for forgiveness, and I obviously didn't mean that.
	I'm thankful for him.
	We would kind of hang out together.
	I wasn't really friends with his friends, but he was friends with my boyfriends, I guess.
	Sorry, which boyfriend?
	Both of them, actually.
	Oh, so he knew about Crazy Suicidal Guy, and he never said to you, this might not be great?
	No, but I do.
	The only person that stuck up for me, so my dad and my stepmom had two kids.
	My one brother is nine years younger than me, and then the other one is 15 years younger than me.
	The one that's nine years younger, I remember telling him.
	So he was like, I don't know.
	Six years old or whatever, and said, if you break my sister's heart, I'm going to beat you up.
	It was just a cute thing, but it meant a lot to me.
	And I always wished my other brother that's close in age to me would have been more protective.
	More protective?
	He wasn't protective at all.
	In fact, he knew this guy was nuts, and he was like, what, didn't warn you against him?
	Right.
	Okay, so as a kid, other than the six-year-old, God help you, other than the six-year-old, was there anyone who showed any particular care or attention or support towards you?
	My maternal grandma and grandpa, they lived right next door to my mom's house.
	Oh, so they kept track if you're dating, and then they found out about your boyfriends.
	Well, they knew, but didn't say anything.
	Okay, I'm looking for people who actually said something.
	Nobody said anything, but my grandma, I remember, was there for me.
	She went to all my band concerts and whatnot and was there for me, which right now, that's one person I struggle with.
	Okay, but you're dating a psycho.
	And nobody says anything.
	Nobody asks.
	Nobody reviews.
	Nobody goes into detail.
	Nobody vets him.
	There's nothing.
	Not that I recall.
	Oh, I'm pretty sure you'd remember.
	Okay.
	Then no.
	So people don't care.
	Right.
	They don't care.
	I mean, listen, you're a mom.
	Can you imagine your kids start dating and you don't care who they're dating and you don't care that they're mentally unstable?
	You don't care that they're bulimic and throwing up in cornfields and cutting themselves and threatening suicide?
	You're just like, yeah, good luck, kid.
	Off you go.
	It's awful.
	No, like, it's staggering.
	Yeah.
	It's incomprehensible how selfish that would be on the part of every adult in the vicinity.
	Have you ever talked to your parents about their deficiencies?
	What do you mean by that?
	Well, the fact that they threw you to the wolves when it came to the...
	I mean, just one of many things.
	Like, why didn't you ever care who I was dating?
	I was in serious danger.
	Not a whole lot.
	But I've had some conversations after going through...
	Like, when my husband and I went to this marriage conference the year after we were married...
	And a lot came to light.
	We came back and had some intense conversations with our parents.
	And my grandma was one of them I had to have a conversation with.
	That's when I found out about certain things about my childhood from my dad.
	Oh, the suicidal mom and stuff?
	What?
	You mean that your mother was drugged and suicidal?
	Yes, that's when I found out.
	Has your mom confirmed any of that?
	Because, you know, I'm not trying to cast aspersions on your dad, but sometimes in divorces you don't get the most objective stories.
	Right.
	Every time I've tried to talk to my mom, she doesn't confess anything.
	Okay, so what negative behaviors have your parents taken responsibility for in raising you?
	None.
	Okay, so you haven't had any successful conversations insofar as they've taken ownership, they've apologized, they've tried to make restitution, and so on.
	Correct.
	That has not happened.
	And why do you think they don't take any responsibility for anything?
	Well, one, I don't think my dad thinks he has a problem with alcohol.
	Well, no, but we weren't talking about alcohol here.
	We were talking about the fact that he just let you saunter off to date at the age of 13 with a guy who was extremely mentally unstable and potentially dangerous.
	I haven't talked about that.
	And actually, yeah, I haven't thought about that aspect of growing up in a long time.
	Okay, so...
	What's your relationship like with your parents at the moment?
	I call my mom all the time, and I have recently realized she doesn't ever call me, and I've told her that it's frustrating.
	Like, I want to have a relationship, but a relationship goes both ways.
	That's why I stopped calling my sister-in-law, my brother's wife.
	We used to talk all the time, but that's because I would call her.
	Like, on my way to work when I used to work.
	Anyway, I'm like, oh, this relationship is one way.
	Like, let's see if she'd call me, and she didn't.
	So I'm like, eh.
	It's just annoying to put the effort.
	Same with my other brothers.
	They just stopped.
	And what about your dad?
	My dad will call me occasionally.
	What do you mean?
	Like, how often?
	Once every other week.
	Okay.
	And he brings up almost like every time, why don't you ever call me?
	Why don't you ever come over?
	Does he live far away?
	He lives 30 minutes away and so does my mom.
	Where my other brothers live in a way where they could just drop by and they do drop by often.
	I don't, like, I would have to plan, and I have kids, so there's nap time and lunch.
	So are you going to have lunch?
	I feel awkward saying, do I need to bring my own lunch?
	Are you going to have, you know what I mean?
	Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.
	This takes more planning, and I can't just stop by like my dad would love for us to do, or expects us to do.
	Well, isn't it easier for him to come to you?
	Yeah.
	And how often does he do that?
	He's come to a handful of the kids' birthday parties, but that's it.
	Wait, wait, wait.
	So you've got a kid who's five, is that right?
	Four.
	Four, sorry.
	So how often has your father got off his drunk ass, or hopefully not drunk ass, and come to your house to spend time with you and his grandkids?
	Um...
	Probably like six times.
	Okay, that's pathetic.
	Parties, the birthday parties that we've had.
	No, no, that's pathetic.
	That's beyond pathetic.
	I mean, you need help, right?
	I do.
	What about your mom?
	Does she come over and help?
	She's come over and babysat just like three times when we had a doctor's appointment for another kid.
	Okay, so they still don't care.
	Right.
	So I don't understand what the plus is in having them around.
	And I'm not trying to say don't, I'm just, I don't get it.
	I've been thinking about, like, why do I call my mom?
	I used to think, like, she just listens to what I say.
	She doesn't ask follow-up questions or ask how I'm doing with this or that.
	I used to say she was such a good listener and And someone's like, no.
	She's...
	Like a sponge.
	There's nothing there.
	Yeah, she's just...
	Her body's there.
	Because listening, you need follow-up questions and actually caring.
	But I do call her a lot.
	But I've been thinking about why...
	Like, what if I don't call her?
	Will she actually call me?
	No, probably not.
	Probably not.
	Unless she needs help with something, because my stepdad died two years ago.
	My brother helps her a lot.
	She needs to move.
	But that's a whole other thing.
	She is in a lot of pain herself from a car accident and doesn't work or anything.
	That's a different story.
	What does she live on?
	What's that?
	Sorry, what does she live on?
	Like, what's her income?
	Disability.
	Ever since, like, in high school.
	She worked a little bit after.
	But she was out of work since I was in high school.
	Oh, she hasn't worked since you were in high school?
	Yeah, she was in a car accident when I was in high school and then didn't work then, but she did work a little bit years later.
	Okay.
	Okay, so she hasn't really had a job in quite some time.
	Oh.
	Ah, excellent.
	I'm sure the taxpayers are thrilled.
	Okay.
	And do you think she could work?
	Or do you think it's valid?
	She can't possibly find any way to make any money?
	Oh, I'm sure she could.
	Well, she's in so much pain.
	I was thinking maybe she could do an office job or something, but sitting would even hurt for a long time.
	She takes pain pills.
	She is addicted to pain pills, but she goes to a pain clinic and they monitor it.
	I don't think she abuses it.
	Well, look, come on.
	I mean, obviously, I don't know anything about it, and you know her infinitely better than I do.
	But if somebody's addicted to pain pills and claims to be in constant pain, my radar goes up.
	Right.
	I do believe she's in a lot of pain because she doesn't complain a whole lot.
	But when you're there, she'll almost, like, fall over because...
	Like her hip just gives out.
	She had a botched hip replacement.
	Has all this weird stuff with her back and goes to doctors and stuff all the time.
	All right.
	I mean, yeah, it could be to get more pain meds, but okay.
	I mean, that's neither here nor there.
	We can't really do much about that.
	Okay.
	And so, yeah, so sort of help me understand the plus of having people who don't care about you and really don't care about your kids.
	Help me understand the plus of having them in your life.
	It's just exhausting.
	I guess there isn't a plus.
	I mean, they're both addicts, right?
	Yeah.
	So you're not really dealing with the person, you're just dealing with the addiction, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, they're selfish, right?
	They don't come over and help you.
	They're not invested in your kids, right?
	They didn't protect you from bad boyfriends, right?
	I mean, they were addicts throughout your childhood.
	So, again, I'm open to hearing the case, but I don't see the plus.
	I guess just because they're my mom and dad, but that's not a reason, a good reason.
	Well, the way that I formulate things, we can only love virtue.
	The only thing we can love is virtue.
	If we're virtuous, right?
	I mean, it's in the Christian context, like, we love the manifestation of virtue, right?
	We love, in a sense, the God or the virtue in the person.
	And would you say that your parents are virtuous?
	No.
	Okay.
	Would you say that there's elements of corruption there?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So if they're not virtuous and they are corrupt, they can't be loved.
	They can't love themselves, they can't love others, and they can't be loved.
	Like, it's tough to be good, right?
	It's hard to be good.
	You know, the high road is the hard road, right?
	So it's hard to be good, but the reason that we try to be good is so that we can participate in the great glory called love, right?
	And if your parents are not virtuous, and are, in fact, have elements of corruption, then they can't love Or beloved.
	And that would explain why they're fundamentally indifferent to you and to their grandkids.
	because the price we pay for corruption is being barred from the beauty of love.
	And it's not so much that they're sinners, I suppose, like we're all sinners, right?
	But it's that they do not acknowledge their sin and they do not repent.
	Is that fair?
	Yes.
	I mean, your dad's been drinking a dozen or more beers a day at his height and still drinks, and yet will not admit that he's an alcoholic, right?
	and I'll see you next time.
	Right.
	So God himself cannot forgive a sinner who does not repent.
	And to repent, you must first acknowledge the sin, right?
	Right.
	And your parents broke their vows to each other.
	They broke their vows to their children.
	They broke their vows to God.
	They broke their vows to virtue.
	And that's why they don't care.
	Right.
	I mean, we be good so we can, we pursue virtue so that we can partake in the glory of love.
	And sort of my major concern when I got your message was, okay, what love is surrounding this woman's life?
	What virtues are surrounding this woman's life?
	And with regards to your parents, if we put our hearts in the care of people who don't care, our hearts die.
	Right?
	I mean, if you give your baby to someone who has no interest in taking care of a baby, after a certain amount of time, your baby's not doing very well, right?
	And if you give your heart to people who don't care, your heart starts to falter and fail.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I feel that with my husband.
	I'm aware of that, and that's sort of what I'm building to, but the stuff comes before the husband, right?
	Right.
	So how old were you when you met your husband, and how did you meet him?
	Oh, I guess one thing I didn't see in there.
	I was married before.
	Oh.
	For about three years.
	When I was 22 or 23. Okay.
	And he basically just left me.
	Like, he was a Christian, too.
	We talked about it, and then, like, literally a month after we got married...
	He's, like, fell away from wanting to follow Jesus.
	I'm like, okay, I made this commitment.
	There wasn't abuse or anything like that.
	I'm like, well, it was just, like, roommates.
	Sorry, I didn't quite follow that.
	You got married, and within a month of getting married, he fell away from?
	Following Jesus.
	Oh, did he become an atheist?
	Basically, I guess.
	Was there anything in particular that happened?
	He was actually going to Bible college.
	And unfortunately, I don't know, one thing that seemed to happen is a professor asked him what Jesus meant to you, which there's no wrong answer to your own story, you know?
	And he was told that that is wrong.
	Sorry, he was told that his answer as to what Jesus means to him is wrong?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And that kind of messed him up, which it was...
	Horrible of the professor.
	That's what he told me.
	And, you know, the timeline would make sense.
	Or it was that he had just turned 21 and he was like, we moved.
	Because I went to college with him.
	It was out of state.
	Got married.
	All the changes.
	Like, holy crap, what am I doing?
	I am not fully developed.
	Not that he was thinking that.
	But I learned that you're not fully developed until, what, you're 25?
	He could have...
	It could have been all the things.
	But anyway, eventually he's like, you can go find your Christian guy.
	I'm done.
	We filed for a divorce together.
	We did go to counseling and the counselor was like, this isn't going to work if you're not going to decide to do this or that.
	And he's like, nope.
	And so we went and filed for divorce that day.
	How long were you married for?
	It was less than three years.
	Sorry, but wasn't it a month into the marriage, he didn't want to be a Christian?
	And listen, the idea that some professor asked him a question and that completely cratered his faith is not particularly believable.
	Yeah.
	That's probably an excuse.
	But anyway, I mean, so were you hoping to work things out, or did it just take a long time to get divorced?
	I'm like, I hate this commitment.
	It was amusing or anything.
	Like, okay.
	I didn't feel like it was grounds for divorce.
	So I was like, okay, let's...
	How do I live my life?
	And it was just like roommates.
	But I realized he was probably addicted to porn and masturbation and looking at the signs after I've gotten divorced.
	By signs, do you mean browser history?
	What do you mean?
	No, he wouldn't ever let me on his laptop or phone.
	I'm like, what if I need to use your phone in an emergency or whatever?
	I'm like, you can call 911 from any phone, even if it's locked.
	Oh, but you didn't think he was cheating?
	I didn't think he was cheating, no.
	But realizing, well, my current husband chooses porn and masturbation.
	After seeing those signs and that is known, I'm like, oh, my first husband probably was too.
	That's because you guys didn't have a sex life.
	You said you were just like roommates, right?
	We occasionally had sex and I would have to beg him.
	I'm like, I shouldn't have to beg my, what, 22-year-old husband?
	Right, right.
	And he even, like...
	You're supposed to be begging him for a break.
	Right.
	Give it a rest.
	Right.
	I need to heal.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Yeah, so he's like, you take care of it yourself.
	And so, rejection there.
	And that was confusing.
	Like, okay.
	Makes no sense.
	But...
	And how long did you date your first husband before you got married?
	It was long.
	It was like eight months, but he was in a different state.
	And I assume the same pattern happened that your family didn't vet him at all?
	Correct.
	Like, we met his family and whatnot.
	There was one person from church who told me that she doesn't think it's a good idea.
	Only one person.
	But when I got divorced, Everybody.
	Oh, I knew it wasn't going to work.
	Oh, God.
	Yeah, that's depalling.
	That's terrible.
	Everybody.
	I'm like, why didn't you say anything?
	Like, why didn't you say anything?
	So it was frustrating that there was only one person.
	And I wasn't even that close to her.
	She was, you know, just an older person who's shot from a distance.
	Yeah, that's not good.
	And looking back, did you sort of see any...
	Were there red flags that you missed?
	Oh, yeah.
	What was I thinking?
	Well, we should have been in person to date.
	And I... Well, if I would have dated longer, I would have realized how crazy his family history is.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I think I was just desperate for love.
	I wanted to be married so bad.
	Right.
	Okay, so you get divorced in your mid-20s, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, and how old were you?
	Was there anything substantial between that and your current husband?
	Yeah, my biggest regrets, actually.
	I... We had to wait half a year for the divorce to be finalized in our state.
	I was still like, we can go to counseling.
	We can make it work.
	I was trying.
	He's like, stop asking me to fix it.
	We're done.
	Go date other people and whatnot.
	I was like, screw it.
	I slept with a handful of people, and people in my workplace and stuff like that took advantage of my vulnerable place.
	Sorry, took advantage of me?
	Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	We just slipped into an interesting narrative there.
	So you wanted to sleep with men, but they took advantage of you.
	Yeah.
	Help me understand how that works?
	I was not in a good place in my mind.
	Well, you wanted to sleep with men, whatever the reason, right?
	What's that?
	I mean, you did want to sleep with men.
	I mean, we can say for good or bad reasons, right?
	But you wanted to sleep with men, and then you say they took advantage of you.
	Well, I wanted to be wanted, and that's how they wanted me.
	And now, looking back, I knew that they were taking advantage of me.
	They had no want in a relationship.
	They just wanted to have sex.
	Right.
	And you just wanted to feel wanted, so didn't you use them as much?
	You used them to feel good about yourself, and they used you for sex.
	Why is that not mutual using?
	Right.
	Yep, I guess.
	That's true.
	I'm trying to keep you away from the victim side of things.
	As a kid, as you were a kid, when you were a kid, total victim.
	100%, 150% victim as a kid.
	But you start cruising into a quarter century, it's a little tougher to pull the victim card, right?
	Unless some guy jumps out in an alley with a knife, right?
	I mean, because, and the reason I'm saying that, and this may be a bit of a foreshadow, that in your letter to me, there's a lot of victim stuff there.
	And I'm going to try and guide you away from the victim stuff.
	Because you are an independent free will moral agent, as we all are, right?
	And again, not as a kid, right?
	As a kid, you were a victim, right?
	But as an adult, I'm going to try and keep you away.
	I'm going to place myself between you and the victim cliff as much as possible and try and sort of shoo you back to the free will, personal responsibility side, just so you know.
	That's coming.
	Okay.
	Alright, so you slept with a handful of people.
	Hopefully not at the same time, and hopefully of roughly the same gender, but okay.
	So you slept with a bunch of people, and then what?
	I was also smoking pot at that time with my brothers.
	These are your younger brothers?
	Yeah.
	Okay, hopefully not the six-year-old who said he'd beat up your boyfriend if he broke your heart.
	Oh, well, he, no, he, the one is nine years younger than me, and the other one was 15 years younger than me.
	Okay, so if you're in your mid-twenties, though, isn't he mid to late teens?
	Yeah, the youngest.
	No, no, the youngest would be 10. Right?
	The one who's, if you're 25, then the nine-year-old is 16. Okay, yeah.
	So, how old were your siblings when you were smoking pot with them?
	I guess you just did the math.
	Oh, come on.
	Tell me you weren't getting a kid in his mid-teens into pot.
	No, he was actually the one smoking pot.
	It was his pot.
	Okay, so you were participating in smoking pot with someone in his mid-teens.
	Yes.
	Contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
	Yeah, it's awful.
	Okay, so what the hell?
	Why would you do that?
	He's 16. I guess he was doing it anyway.
	No, no, no, no.
	Come on.
	Come on, Christian lady.
	Is that an excuse?
	No.
	And again, I'm not trying to come down on you like a ton of bricks, but I'm trying to follow this way.
	Why you would help a kid smoke drugs or participate in a kid smoking drugs or anything like that?
	I don't know.
	It was awful.
	Well, it was awful.
	We seek to understand, don't we?
	Not just condemn, because condemnation doesn't bring understanding.
	Which I struggle with a lot.
	Okay, so it was awful, doesn't explain anything, right?
	So I'm trying to figure out, you've got a 16-year-old kid, right?
	Barely able to drive, and you're lighting up with him, right?
	When you're, what, 26?
	25?
	I'm like that.
	Okay.
	And my mom actually did it with us once.
	Okay.
	And...
	I'm embarrassed to confess this next part.
	You know that psycho person I dated when I was 13?
	I do!
	He...
	He came over.
	I don't know how we got reconnected.
	We lived right down the road.
	And he came over and also did it with us and...
	brought other drugs that we didn't do, but he did.
	Right.
	you Now, where was your faith and prayer and Christianity at this time in your life?
	I just said, screw it.
	Well, you didn't.
	The devil did, and you listened, right?
	I was in rebellion.
	Okay.
	But why, if you were in rebellion, why drag a child along?
	Why, instead of talking to your brother and saying, you know, listen, mom's a drug addict, dad's an alcoholic, you can't touch this stuff, talk to me about what's going on, let's see if we can sort this out.
	You're like, sounds great, let's do it together.
	with mom and crazy guy.
	I mean, you're almost a decade older.
	You're supposed to show some moral leadership, right?
	Right.
	So, again, I'm not trying to condemn you or anything.
	I'm genuinely seeking to understand, like, what the heck was going on here?
	I was in a really bad place.
	Well, that's by definition, right?
	Like, you keep not trying to understand your decision process.
	Oh, well, I slept with guys, but they took advantage of me.
	Well, I enabled my kid brother's drug use, but I was in a really bad place.
	Like, that doesn't explain anything.
	The question is, why would you make these decisions?
	I don't know.
	Well, you do.
	You may not know it consciously, but you know.
	Because we don't act randomly, right?
	I mean, it's very destructive for your brother, right?
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	So why would you contribute to harming your brother in this way?
	There's a cruelty in it, right?
	And a sort of destruction, like you're bowling against his soul kind of thing.
	I clearly wasn't loving him.
	Well, you're harming him, right?
	Yeah.
	I have since asked him for forgiveness for allowing that to happen.
	Sorry, what do you mean allowing it to happen?
	This language you use is fascinating.
	What do you mean allowing it to happen?
	You willingly participated.
	Allowing it to happen is, you know, there's an avalanche and you don't warn your brother.
	That's just allowing it to happen, but you were the avalanche in a way, right?
	No.
	You didn't allow it to happen.
	You actively participated.
	Were you miserable and wanted to spread the misery, or what?
	Anyway...
	They were already doing it.
	Right, so you stopped them.
	You don't participate and encourage.
	I guess it looked fun, and I wanted to do it too.
	But you already were doing it, because you already were smoking the drugs, right?
	Yeah, I mean, like when I first...
	Did it.
	No, no, I'm talking about when you did it with your brother.
	Yeah.
	Like they would do it.
	Right.
	And it looked fun.
	Right.
	Apparently thinking, who cares about the consequences?
	Really not thinking.
	I'm not caring about anybody else but myself.
	Yeah, I mean, these are just kind of cliches.
	Like, there's usually a deeper answer to that.
	I don't know.
	I don't know what to say.
	Well, okay, so why does the devil corrupt mankind?
	Because he hates God, right?
	So maybe you're secretly angry at your parents and corrupt their children as vengeance.
	That's deep.
	Well, I mean, it's biblical, right?
	God, like, the devil can't kill God, so the devil counsels women to kill their offspring, right?
	Right.
	So maybe the devil is having you harm your parents by encouraging the addictions of their offspring.
	You corrupted me, I'll corrupt your kids in return.
	Huh.
	Thank you.
	I've never thought anything of this sort.
	Well, this is why I'm sort of trying to understand where your anger at your parents has gone.
	Like, where is it?
	It's somewhere, because you can't be that cruelly treated and neglected without getting angry.
	Yeah.
	Now I think it's coming out against your husband, and of course I'm not saying your husband is behaving well, but the anger is somewhere, right?
	Because of what your friend said.
	Your friend said maybe you're angry at your parents and it's coming out in other ways, right?
	Yeah, because I yell and get frustrated at my kids, and that's where my anger is directed.
	Right, so you're nice to your parents who harmed you, and you're a little nasty to your kids who love you.
	Yeah.
	So this is an inversal of values, right?
	So the people who've done you the most harm, you're the most nice to, and the people who've done you the least harm, you're the least nice to.
	Yeah.
	So this is the opposite of what goodness would be, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay, so for how long did you do drugs with your little brother?
	Oh, it was just a handful of times.
	And then what?
	What, did you try to get him out of drugs or did you say we've got to stop this or this is unhealthy or?
	Well, I met with my pastor and I told him, he said, you have a choice.
	You can stop smoking pot, or you can follow Jesus.
	That's your choice.
	And I chose Jesus.
	Okay, and did Jesus tell you to go back and help your little brother, who you participated in corrupting?
	I talked to them.
	Sorry, them, but you didn't, obviously you didn't do drugs with your ten-year-old brother.
	He was there at one point, but he didn't do anything.
	So he was there watching you do drugs with his older brother.
	Yeah.
	Oh, my sister, what the heck?
	What were you doing?
	You've got a 10-year-old kid in the room and you're doing drugs with his brother.
	I mean, what do you think of that?
	Thank you.
	It's horrible.
	I mean, it's appalling, right?
	Yeah.
	How's your youngest brother's life turned out as a whole?
	Um...
	I don't talk to him a whole lot.
	I have talked to him a few times about that and told him I'm sorry.
	Yeah, he just works and hangs out with his girlfriend.
	He doesn't come to anything I invite him to or text back much.
	Okay, do you know if he was able to escape the addiction that has plagued your family?
	Probably not, because him and my other brother, they always were vaping and stuff, and I think they vape and whatnot.
	And I think him and his girlfriend smoke weed.
	Oh gosh, I'm so sorry.
	And you had a bit of a hand in that, right?
	I did.
	And have you, I mean, has he ever accepted an apology or restitution or anything like that?
	Yeah.
	So you've tried to apologize, but he won't listen?
	What's that?
	Sorry, so you've tried to apologize, but he won't listen?
	No, he said he forgives me.
	And is he a Christian as well?
	Thank you.
	No.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Oh, that's okay.
	He didn't say the words, I forgive you.
	And you don't really have a relationship with him.
	Can you ask that last question?
	Yeah, sorry.
	You don't really have a relationship with him, right?
	Not so much.
	I keep trying.
	He just doesn't text back.
	Right, okay.
	So, then you're sort of 26 or so, and, sorry, there was something significant between your first marriage and your current marriage?
	Yeah, all that.
	Okay.
	But no significant romantic relationship between your first husband and your second husband, is that right?
	Yeah.
	No significant.
	Well, I dated somebody for a few months who was a decent guy, besides the horrible people that I slept with.
	And what happened with the decent guy?
	We just decided it wasn't going to work.
	That was when I was trying to follow Jesus more.
	And our values weren't exactly the same.
	Was he not a Christian?
	Well, he's Catholic, so it's a little different.
	Right.
	Okay, so then how old were you when you met your husband?
	Um, 29. time.
	Thank you.
	Okay, so there was a couple of years there where you slept around a little bit, you dated a little bit, you did some drugs, and then were you mostly clean when you met your husband, or how was that?
	Yeah, well, it didn't seem like it was that long.
	Sorry, maybe I made a mistake.
	You said 26 to 29, or 25 to 29?
	No, I don't remember.
	Well, I was married for three years.
	Maybe 28 when I met my husband.
	Okay.
	It seemed like a year, year and a half by the time I officially got divorced.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So where did you meet him?
	I was friends with his cousin.
	Or I am friends with his cousin.
	Okay.
	And what was it that drew you to him?
	Um...
	I felt like...
	Okay, so leading up to meeting him, I just had a feeling...
	Okay, I was talking to this one guy and actually slept with him a couple times.
	And I felt like I needed to cut off that relationship to meet my current husband.
	Because I had a feeling it was important.
	And it was a bad relationship anyway.
	It wasn't really a relationship with the other guy.
	So I met him.
	It was just a game night.
	Sorry, what does game night mean?
	Oh, just playing board games.
	Okay.
	Um.
	Yeah, it was kind of awkward.
	Um.
	Because the cousin's brother's Sisters and her friends were all like drunk there and being obnoxious.
	And we knew that the game night was for us to meet.
	Anyway, it was just embarrassing.
	We didn't talk a whole lot and we walked out at the same time.
	Didn't say anything.
	I'm like, what the heck?
	And a month went by and then we hung out again.
	Just the cousin and her husband.
	And connected more.
	But I'm like, why didn't he call me?
	Why didn't he reach out?
	I don't know.
	And so I went back to the guy a couple times I was talking to before that I said I wasn't going to talk to again.
	But I did.
	You mean you slept with him a couple times?
	Yeah.
	And then cut it off again.
	Before that second time I met my husband.
	I'm still trying to figure out your relationship, not with these men, but with Jesus.
	It kind of seems to come and go.
	In that time, it was.
	It's a horrible example.
	I was totally living in sin and rebellion.
	Okay, but why were you living in sin and rebellion?
	I mean, I assume you gave up on the weed to dedicate your life to following Jesus, right?
	So why do you keep breaking up with Jesus?
	I'm trying to sort of follow that, right?
	Good question.
	Or a good way to word it.
	That clearly was what was happening.
	Okay, but why?
	I feel like I was just desperate for somebody tangible.
	So...
	Sorry, desperate for what?
	To want me?
	Oh, like to want you sexually?
	To want me?
	No, not necessarily sexually.
	No, but you slept with the guy.
	Yeah.
	So, what do you mean to want you?
	Do you mean to desire you?
	To lust after you?
	To want you sexually?
	That's what I'm understanding.
	Maybe I'm missing something.
	Well...
	That's not what I really wanted, but what is the saying?
	Like, girls...
	Not that it's right, but girls give sex to get love and guys give love to get sex.
	Not right.
	And it doesn't work that way.
	You can't get love by screwing a corrupt man.
	Right.
	I mean, you know that, right?
	Yes.
	But maybe I just wanted somebody to hold me.
	Well, okay.
	I mean, that's what friends and family are for, right?
	You want a hug, go talk to friends and family, right?
	You don't have to go and put out for a corrupt guy, right?
	Right.
	Because it never worked, right?
	Offering up sex from your teens onwards never worked to get you love, right?
	So the fact that you'd still be trying it more than 10 years later is not like it would indicate that you've learned nothing.
	In fact, giving up sex in order to, quote, get love or get attention is going to keep love at bay.
	It's going to keep love away.
	It's true.
	Because a good, virtuous, godly man is going to look at that and say, well, she's kind of wallowing in sin, and she's got the rebellious spirit, and she doesn't listen to Jesus, and she doesn't pray for guidance, and she just does whatever the fleshly heart wants.
	She can't be trusted with sorrow and not with condemnation, but no, right?
	Right.
	So you're actively keeping love away, right?
	True.
	And do you also know why you could not get a good man in your life in your 20s?
	Because my mind wasn't...
	My mind is all messed up, and I wasn't healed and dealing...
	No, no, no, that's all psychobabble.
	No, it's not that.
	It's because, okay, let's say that, I don't know, what's your favorite male name?
	What?
	What's your favorite male name?
	I don't know what you mean.
	Well, what's the male name that you think is Brock?
	I don't know.
	What's the male name that you find the most attractive?
	I don't know.
	Just pick one.
	I don't know, because I don't want to say somebody like that I know.
	Oh, right.
	Okay.
	So, okay, Aragorn.
	You ever watched Lord of the Rings?
	No.
	No?
	Okay.
	Deadpool.
	I don't know.
	Like, okay, let's say Chad.
	Okay, I'm just going to go with Chad.
	If you want to pick one, I'll pick a cliched name.
	Okay, so Chad, right?
	Now, Chad is like the Fabio of moral virtues.
	Rippling chest, long blonde hair, piercing blue eyes.
	Triple jaw, right?
	You name it, right?
	And Chad comes into your life like a hurricane of goodness, right?
	And he's a godly man, and he loves virtue, and so on, right?
	And then Chad meets your parents, and Chad finds out about your childhood, right?
	How your mom was smoking while she was pregnant, doing drugs, and suicidal, and your dad was an alcoholic, and they didn't care about you, and they didn't protect you, and they tossed you to the wolves, and they don't phone you, and they didn't warn you about any dangers in the world, and they left you to fend for yourself as a little girl.
	What is Chad going to think of your parents when he finds out about the truth of your history?
	Not think very highly of them.
	Will Chad want your parents in his life?
	No.
	Can you love someone and also love the people who did that person the most harm?
	That'd be very difficult.
	It's impossible.
	It's impossible.
	You cannot love someone and also love the people who've done them the most harm, especially if they're unrepentant.
	Okay.
	Right?
	So, your parents don't want a quality man in your life, because a quality man in your life will turn his laser virtue eyes on your parents and scald the flesh from their bones.
	And it's not just your parents.
	How about your grandparents?
	How about aunts and uncles?
	How about extended family?
	How about your friends as a whole?
	How many of them can pass a rigorous moral examination?
	No one in my family.
	Right.
	Thank you.
	So the reason why you had to have trashy men around you in your 20s was because they wouldn't question any of your primary, quote, relationships.
	And you can't be genuinely loved, because if you are genuinely loved, the hollowness and emptiness of your other relationships will the hollowness and emptiness of your other relationships will be completely clear to you, to the detriment and disadvantage of others.
	Your parents and extended family and friendships and so on, right?
	If you were genuinely loved then the vapid emptiness of these other quote relationships would be genuinely clear to you.
	So you avoid love Genuine love and you avoid the virtue necessary for generating love and sharing love.
	You avoid Chad so that you can still be exploited or other people want you to avoid Chad so they continue to exploit you and get things from you without having to be good themselves.
	Sure.
	Chad comes along and says, Wait, hang on.
	Your parents let you date a crazy guy?
	Your parents didn't protect you?
	Your parents didn't seem to love you?
	They didn't teach you anything?
	You were unparented?
	Mm-hmm.
	Your parents chose drugs and alcohol over you, And virtue.
	Okay, Okay, so you go back to the bad guy a couple of times while your husband-to-be is still floating around, and then you get together with your cousin and her spouse, his spouse, and then your husband-to-be is around, and what happens and then your husband-to-be is around, and what happens then?
	And, like, the third time we hung out with them, we were just playing disc golf or whatnot, and then they kind of ditched us.
	And we went to a coffee shop and then walked around a park and went out to eat.
	So it kind of turned into our first date and told each other our life stories.
	And it just felt like we just knew we were going to get married.
	We didn't say that then.
	Well, I mean, you were 29?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, so 30's coming around the corner and you want to settle down, right?
	Yeah.
	It's a fairly typical story.
	I'm not saying you're a typical person, but it's a fairly typical story that a woman dates badly in her teens and her 20s and then wants the, quote, nice guy when she's pushing 30, right?
	Yeah.
	I... I was actually really thankful.
	My first husband asked for a divorce when he did.
	So maybe I can have kids that I've always dreamed of and people are like, or when I was married with my first husband, he's like, we're not having kids.
	Sorry, he said you didn't want to have kids when you were married?
	Like, did you not talk about that beforehand?
	He did.
	We're like, we're going to have two kids.
	We're going to raise them this way and that way.
	And And so when he fell away from Jesus or whatever, all the things went out the window.
	And he's like, nope, we're not having kids.
	And all the things, I'm thankful.
	I didn't end up having kids with him, but I'm thankful he asked for a divorce when he did, because I was young enough to get married and have kids.
	Okay, so how long did it take for you guys to get married after you met?
	It was pretty quick.
	Like five months.
	Oh, wow.
	Okay.
	All right.
	And did you vet him at all or were there any red flags or any issues that you were concerned about?
	Is he roughly your age?
	A year older.
	A year older.
	Okay.
	So he's 30, 29. And when you date, were there any concerns or you met his family or you know about his childhood and his history and were there any red flags that you were concerned about?
	Not with his family.
	I love his family.
	My mother-in-law has a dream come true.
	They love Jesus and she's probably prayed for him more than anybody else she's ever prayed for because he was a rebellious kid.
	I didn't really know that then.
	But the red flag, I remember he almost didn't want to date me because I was married before He felt like, even though he's been looking at porn since he was like 13, which his parents didn't know, I've talked to his mom about it.
	Sorry, his parents didn't know.
	I'm not sure what that, I mean, why would that matter?
	I mean, it's their job anyway.
	It's their job to know.
	It's their job to know.
	Yeah.
	It's their job to know.
	They're providing the internet access.
	Everybody knows the internet is full of sexual imagery.
	It's their job to know.
	They can't claim that they're not responsible because they didn't know.
	You understand.
	You put parental controls on.
	You talk to your kids about the dangers.
	You make sure that they understand.
	You don't give them a tablet or you give them a lockdown tablet.
	You review their tablet usage.
	It's their job to know.
	Yeah.
	But they make this excuse like we didn't know?
	Yeah.
	That's bull.
	That's total bull.
	My mother-in-law, which doesn't sit right with me, I've talked to my mother-in-law about everything and we're really close.
	She thinks that my father-in-law has never struggled with porn and doesn't understand and wants to be there for my husband but doesn't really know how because He's just, like, oblivious to the world and those things.
	No, it's not.
	Come on.
	Come on.
	These are all just excuses.
	You don't have the choice to be oblivious to the world as a parent.
	No.
	Right?
	You have to...
	Okay.
	You research, right?
	Even if you didn't grow up, of course, with all this internet sexual content, right?
	You...
	Oh, what are the big dangers facing kids these days?
	And what's going to come up?
	Porn.
	Hmm.
	You do your research.
	It's your job.
	You can't be, oh, I don't know, I'm just an old guy.
	That's not an option.
	Like, it's seriously not an option.
	Yeah.
	But they say that they pull this boomer ignorance nonsense?
	I guess.
	Well, no, don't guess.
	Tell me.
	me.
	I don't want to be unfair.
	Yeah, they should have known they shouldn't have been a computer in his room or whatever.
	He had, like, this portable DVD player he would get DVDs from, so that's not internet.
	He finds a way around things, even if it's not actual porn.
	Well, then you just take it away, right?
	Yeah.
	Were there any other ways in which he was neglected as a kid?
	I just know his dad worked a lot.
	So I think Ben was homeschooled until high school.
	His siblings are...
	His sister is like four years older, and then brother is like six years older.
	So I don't think they played with him a ton.
	Well, they were in school doing their own thing when he was at the time when he wanted to be with them.
	Anyway, so he's just stuck at home a lot with his mom.
	He says how she was on the phone with her friends all the time.
	So he was neglected.
	I guess he might say that.
	Well, no, I'm happy to hear counterexamples, but if his dad's working all the time, his mom's on the phone, and he's just rotten away in his room with a computer and, what, video games and porn, that's neglect, isn't it?
	I suppose.
	No, no, don't suppose.
	I'm trying to get some facts here.
	Don't give me all this fog.
	I don't want to be unfair.
	He would, like...
	Um...
	Build a bunch of stuff.
	That's how he became really innovative.
	He fixes stuff, machines and whatnot, and learned how to do that in his downtime.
	I don't see how that answers the question of neglect.
	I know they always did stuff as family.
	They went to the cabin and stuff like that.
	And so he did have time.
	With his dad fishing and...
	Yeah.
	But I guess on the day to day, he worked a lot.
	Okay.
	And how long have you known your husband for?
	We just had our seven year anniversary.
	Okay, so seven and a half years, right?
	You're together five months, you got married, so okay.
	And so you didn't see any particular red flags when you were dating?
	Well, okay, so he went to, I found out he was looking at porn and masturbating, and I was also masturbating.
	That started from my first husband saying, take care of it yourself.
	And he went to this men's conference that was heavily...
	Sorry, when was this?
	When we were dating.
	When you were dating.
	Okay, so he goes to a men's conference.
	And how did you know about the addiction?
	We must have talked about it because my friend told us about this ministry that deals with sexual trauma and It was focused a lot on dealing with that.
	Okay.
	Sexual stuff.
	And he was at the conference and he called me.
	He's like, we're done masturbating.
	We're not going to do that because we would do it on the phone.
	We did have sex before we were married.
	Which I know taught us to not trust each other.
	If we couldn't wait...
	A tiny bit.
	So that's a red flag.
	But he went to the conference and a lot came to light.
	And he confessed all these things and it was heartbreaking.
	Oh, do you mean about his early exposure to this material?
	Yeah.
	But you said sexual trauma was there, and we don't have to get into details because I know he's not on the call, but were there other, did he experience other kinds of sexual trauma other than the material he was exposed to?
	Oh, no, not that I know of.
	Okay, got it.
	Okay, so that was the red flag.
	You said sex before marriage.
	I don't know.
	You're both in your...
	Like, he's 29. See, he's 30, you're 29. You both have had a bunch of sexual partners before.
	It might seem a little bit precious to wait until marriage at that point.
	Yeah.
	But, okay.
	So the only red flag was the pornography, right?
	And nothing else?
	Um...
	Well, now I feel like he felt like he deserved a virgin who wasn't married.
	So that mentality, like, was already not good enough for him.
	Sorry, and when did that show up?
	When we were dating.
	Okay, so he said, I want an unmarried virgin, and you're neither.
	And you were like, let's go ahead anyway?
	He said that's like the mindset he was struggling with, but he knew that wasn't true or right.
	But like in his flesh, that's what he felt like he deserved.
	And had he dated a lot of women before you?
	There was like one person in like high school and they didn't even date.
	They just like touched each other a little bit and it was like a crush.
	So what?
	So you were his first sexual partner, is that right?
	Well, he hired a prostitute once to try to do stuff with him, but it didn't work.
	What?
	With his friend that was a couple years older.
	He's the one that exposed him to a lot of things like drinking.
	Hang on.
	Sorry.
	Sorry.
	Our good Christian guy hired a prostitute?
	Yeah.
	When did you find out about that?
	When we were dating.
	What did you think of that?
	Well, it's disgusting.
	He said he wasn't able to even get a boner because he didn't have a connection with her, so that's why it didn't work.
	But that doesn't change anything because it happened.
	I mean, it changes something.
	It lowers the chance of an STD. Yes.
	Okay.
	All right.
	But he was a virgin when you married him.
	Yeah.
	And did he know about the extent of your sexual history?
	Every detail.
	Every detail you talked about before you got married.
	Yeah, that was a part of that ministry, talking about...
	So you were even telling him that after we did the first game night, between that and you asking me out again, I went and slept with the bad guy.
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	Okay, so he then was fine to go forward, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right, so then you get married, and how are things at the beginning of the marriage?
	Pretty good, for like a year.
	Uh-huh.
	And then at our one-year anniversary, we went...
	To that same ministry, but the marriage conference.
	And dealt with a lot of stuff.
	More like bringing everything to the light.
	Like specific people.
	Sorry, what stuff?
	I mean, you'd already talked about a lot of stuff.
	You knew about his childhood.
	He knew about your childhood.
	You knew about his addiction.
	He knew about the men you'd slept with.
	I mean, what stuff is coming up at a year?
	Courage.
	Like naming...
	Every person he's looked at porn to and like...
	Sorry, naming every person?
	I don't know what that means.
	Yeah, like, I masturbated to this actress.
	Oh, sorry, so hang on.
	So this is after the marriage, his pornography consumption.
	That's what he's talking about?
	It's just digging deeper.
	I knew about that.
	No, no, sorry, but what I'm talking about is that was this stuff before you got married, or was this stuff that he was talking about after you got married?
	Before?
	It was from me.
	Okay, so what's the...
	I mean, I don't quite understand the point of this exercise.
	I mean, if he stopped using pornography because he's happily married, why would this stuff all need to be dug up and exhumed?
	There was still...
	Well, we're still struggling with...
	Different mindsets and digging deeper to healing.
	I guess breaking soul ties.
	I don't know if you've heard of that.
	Because every time there's an encounter, you create a bond to that person and you just break it in the spiritual realm.
	That's a whole other thing.
	Okay.
	I mean, it seems a little bit like a shaming struggle session.
	And you had to do that with the men that you slept with.
	Is that right?
	Hold on one second.
	I need to go inside real quick.
	Sure.
	My baby needs to nurse.
	I'll just go up in my room.
	No, no, take your time.
	No problem.
	Hold on one second. Next. Next. Next. Next. Next. Next. Next. Next.
	Next.
	Thank you.
	Okay, I'm back.
	No problem.
	I'm just going upstairs with my baby.
	I do miss that age, but I'll have to wait.
	I do miss that age.
	I do miss that age.
	Okay.
	We can talk.
	Okay.
	So, and I suppose you had to break these spiritual bonds with all of the men that you had slept with in the past.
	Is that right?
	You had to sort of name and all of that?
	Yeah.
	Boy, that seems like digging up a bunch of mucky stuff into a marriage.
	Yes.
	And was that because you were trying to deal with specific problems in the marriage?
	Yeah, I guess because he still was dealing with that mindset.
	I'm not sure what that means, dealing with the mindset.
	That he deserved better, basically.
	Okay, so there were problems in the marriage because he felt he deserved better?
	Yeah, I guess.
	Yes.
	Okay, and how did those problems manifest that you went to this ministry solution?
	I don't even remember.
	Probably still dealing with lust.
	I don't know.
	I don't think he was.
	So what happened in sort of, I guess, the next year or two, you had your first, I don't know, a little bit longer, right?
	right?
	So you were married for three years before you had your first, is that right?
	No, like two...
	Well, I guess by the time she was born.
	Right, right.
	Okay, and how was sort of year two and three?
	Were they better or okay or good?
	No, it's been the same how it is now.
	It's just been getting worse.
	We go in cycles.
	It's like a broken record.
	Like we're good for a little bit or we see we've done like intensive counseling weekends.
	questions.
	From that ministry, there's somebody else.
	She had her own ministry.
	Counselors refer people to her.
	It's basically nine months of counseling, an hour a week counseling.
	Pashed out into one weekend.
	Anyway, that was intense.
	We've just done different things because, like, it'll be good for a while and then he'll go back to poor masturbation over and over again, not really dealing with it.
	But I do want to say a couple things that came up that was really heartbreaking was when...
	In that weekend, he confessed to me that when we would have sex, he would picture my mom.
	What now?
	Yeah.
	What do you mean?
	Okay, I mean, I know what you mean, but he would picture your mom?
	Yeah, which I don't understand.
	And then when I was pregnant with my first, you know, sex is a little tricky when you're pregnant.
	Um, so when you're not face-to-face, like, it's, I guess, easier for your mind to wander.
	I don't know.
	But he would picture somebody at church who he was obviously lusting over.
	And so, whole pregnancy, I found out, he would just imagine I was somebody else.
	Okay.
	That's really hurtful.
	Right.
	Okay.
	The mom thing.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Have you had any, I mean, I don't know, is your mom some smoking hot elderly fox?
	Do you have any idea what the mom thing is about?
	Actually, I don't know.
	There was one time.
	When we were dating, I don't know if it's connected, in a sick and twisted mind.
	We were having sex with our clothes on, but on the bathroom counter, I don't know, and she walked by, and she had no idea, and we're like, ugh, crap!
	But she had no idea.
	And he's always looking for the hunt, and what is that called?
	Voyeurism?
	He's always like, oh, walk by the window, let the neighbors see, and just stuff like that.
	I feel like, and he would research some of the things he's looked up, it's like nudist colonies and that kind of thing.
	I don't know if for some reason, because that happened, and my mom saw, it created a weird bond.
	Sorry, your mom saw, so the door was open?
	The door was open.
	We did not know she was in the house.
	Oh, but were you in her house or she was in your house?
	We lived at her house.
	Oh, so you just didn't know she was home?
	I was living at her house.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I don't know if that created a weird thing in his mind.
	Well, it's quasi-incestuous, right?
	And if incest or quasi-incest is some sort of sexualized thing for him, then it seems to me quite likely that he would have had some bad experience as a child.
	I don't know.
	I've never heard that terminology before.
	Well, I mean, that's sexual activity within the family, though, of course, your mother's not related to him, but it's semi-incestuous.
	Right.
	Yeah, I would definitely ask him about anything that might have happened to him as a kid.
	It could be, could be not, but I mean, certainly there are signs that are there.
	I do know, like, he tried pulling down his cousin's pants when they were both kids, which he asked for forgiveness for, to her.
	Okay, well, I mean, let's put that aside, but it probably would be a good idea to ask him more directly, and, you know, without judgment or hostility, but just like, did anything happen when you were a kid?
	Because this is a very unusual sexual presentation, if that makes sense, or sexual manifestation, and maybe there was something askew with him as a kid, or something really untoward that would have happened that might have...
	Changed his perception of what normal or healthy sexuality might be.
	And are the issues mostly around sexuality, or what are the other things that are going on in the marriage?
	Yeah, mostly.
	And so the cycles, do they involve sort of a decent sex life and then a bad sex life, or are those the cycles that you're dealing with, or is that the major cycle?
	Well...
	It's been kind of hard to have our own time since we had kids.
	Sure, sure.
	That's different.
	But we'll be fine talking, and then he just won't talk to me.
	He's just very vulgar, makes crude jokes and stuff like, ew, just suck it, or just waving it in my face like, ew, go away.
	What the heck?
	I'm trying to go to the bathroom.
	I'm like, get out of my face.
	Just making jokes.
	Yeah, super sarcastic.
	And I can tell the worse it gets.
	I'm like, have you looked at porn lately?
	I've tried to learn to get out of that.
	Like, I was for a while, probably for a couple years, I was like on his back because he wasn't seeking other male help.
	Like, Probably have somebody talk to somebody like he knows people he could talk to for accountability and whatever, but he hasn't ever sought that out or taken steps to get better, even though he knows the steps to take.
	My one friend was like, he's done so many, get your head out of your ass, like Christian things, like what the heck?
	And my pastor recently even was like, You choosing porn is like, you know, like, open the door spiritually, like, in our house to our kids.
	It's like slamming your kid's head in the car door.
	It's like super intense visual that my pastor gave.
	That's like, he's like, like, is doing.
	And he's like, yeah.
	And he doesn't care.
	Yeah.
	Even yesterday, I sent him a quote that a friend posted on Facebook about basically, sorry needs change.
	If you really care about somebody, you'd grow.
	I don't know the exact quote.
	But anyway, I sent it to him in the other room when I was home.
	And he yelled from the other room and said it twice, thinking I didn't hear him.
	And he said, I don't care.
	I just ignored him.
	And how is this affecting, you said that you're frustrated with yelling at your kids, and how is this affecting what's going on with your kids?
	Well, I just feel like I'm so triggered.
	I know I'm depleted in my body.
	I just get so triggered by not listening and messages.
	And I know there's unrealistic expectations and I feel like if we did have a better marriage, I probably would be happier of a person.
	Not that somebody can make me happy.
	I would just be less frustrated.
	Okay, and so why do you think you're yelling at your kids?
	Well, I've realized lately, like, I do feel like there's stuff from my childhood that Like when they touch my things, that's clearly not their toys or something.
	I feel like they're just in my space and I just want to not be touched.
	I feel overwhelmed and overtouched.
	I do remember my stepmom always digging through my stuff and I felt violated in that way.
	And I feel like maybe that's why I'm being triggered as I'm trying to dig deeper on why I do or think the way that I do.
	Messed up thoughts.
	Or just like when a kid is screaming and I can't help them because I'm in the shower or I'm going to the bathroom or I'm helping another kid.
	I just get so overwhelmed and like, ah!
	Clean up!
	Quick!
	We need to go to bed!
	If one needs to go to bed and yell at the oldest to hurry up and I'm not doing it by myself, which is overwhelming.
	My husband works nights.
	The nights he is here, it is better for bedtime's sake.
	I don't know.
	I just get so triggered and I just hate it so much.
	I don't want to be like this.
	And what is it that you hate the most?
	That I yell.
	And I feel like I'm damaging them and my relationships with them.
	And what is the goal of your yelling?
	Is it to get them to change their behavior immediately?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And does it work?
	No.
	I don't know what else to do.
	I know you're not supposed to repeat yourself or yelling isn't good.
	I wouldn't want to listen to somebody yelling either.
	I don't know what to do, how to get them to clean up.
	Okay, they're four and under.
	Like, what are you talking about?
	I know!
	I don't understand why I have crazy, unrealistic expectations.
	Well, did you?
	I mean, the first place to look is, did your parents have crazy, unrealistic expectations for you?
	Or none at all?
	Like, do you just not know what is a reasonable expectation for your kids because your parents didn't parent you?
	Probably, like I don't remember them, like my mom is always, she's been spazzy, but I don't remember my childhood much in that aspect.
	Okay, so have you read up what are developmentally appropriate milestones?
	Like when a kid's supposed to be cleaning up?
	No.
	Why not?
	I mean, should my kids be able to clean up?
	You could just look these things up, right?
	They may not be perfect, but they'll be something, right?
	Yeah.
	So why wouldn't you do the research?
	I mean, if you want to parent differently than the way you were parented, which I applaud you for, it's good.
	But that means that you're going to have to look things up, right?
	I've been doing parenting classes and stuff like that, and I worked at a preschool.
	So yes, I guess...
	I have.
	My oldest has always seemed super mature.
	I'm talking really, really early and just super smart.
	So it feels like older than what they are.
	It's ridiculous, I know, but I don't know how to change.
	Well, I mean, you have to get the facts, right?
	I mean, so I think four is pretty early, especially when you've got two younger kids, but four is pretty early to have this expectation of cleaning up.
	And probably you feel tense when the house is messy, so you want your kids to clean up so you feel better.
	Is that fair?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Was your house a mess when you were growing up?
	I don't remember.
	I don't...
	Well, you've got two addicts, right?
	I assume it was.
	Well, I don't remember.
	Okay, but do you have any pictures from when you were a kid?
	Or is there anything in the background?
	Or does your brother remember?
	Or...
	Anything like that?
	I don't know.
	But I know my mom...
	Well, she's kind of messy.
	Or now...
	Or there's stuff like hoarder type situation going on now.
	But she...
	She liked things organized and cleaned up, I guess.
	I don't remember toys and stuff, though.
	Okay, and how was your mom when the place was messy?
	Well, I feel like she's spazzy, and I see that, like, oh my gosh, I'm acting like my mom.
	Well, I mean, that's the most likely thing, right?
	Yeah.
	I'm fortunate that I didn't grow up with my dad, so I get a pretty open template.
	But how was your mom when the place was messy?
	I don't remember.
	Oh, there was a little pause there.
	I don't remember.
	A little bit?
	Well, I feel silly that I don't remember a whole lot.
	I do remember her spazzing if stuff got broke or something like that.
	And spazzing means like she would get angry if you dropped a plate or something?
	Yeah, yeah, freak out.
	Okay, so you know that's terrible parenting, right?
	I'm going to be straight up with you.
	Kids are going to break this.
	Yes.
	I mean, that's natural.
	I mean, you can have nice expensive stuff or you can have kids, but you can't have both.
	Yeah, and my husband...
	Is always getting mad too when stuff breaks?
	It's always what?
	Oh, it doesn't last forever.
	Right.
	No, I mean, so expecting kids not to drop stuff is like expecting to be a perfect pianist the first time you sit down to play.
	They're learning, which means they're going to drop things, they're going to break things, they're going to fall off their bikes, they're going to spill things.
	It's natural.
	Like I was talking to a mom this morning who's like, oh, my kid wants to pour...
	It's milk and it's cereal and it spills.
	I'm like, well then put it in the sink.
	Of course kids are going to spill things.
	And it's going to be a mess.
	And we get triggered because our parents often were kind of jerks when we spilled things, right?
	They get mad.
	But that's ridiculous.
	It's like getting a puppy and then being upset when he jumps.
	It's like that's what puppies do.
	Uh-huh.
	Doesn't mean that you shouldn't encourage your kids to be tidy over time.
	But my daughter, I mean, she's pretty great to live with, and she's 15, and there's still sometimes a trail.
	Because our brains don't mature until early to mid-20s.
	So expecting it at four is a bit optimistic, to put it mildly.
	Yeah, it's ridiculous.
	But it's not ridiculous if your mom was tense about it, because then that's just what you associate motherhood with.
	I don't want to be like that.
	But then you'll have to work a little bit to try and remember stuff.
	Because especially if you don't remember it, it's probably going to manifest in your reactions.
	Right.
	But if you remember it, right, then...
	So let me tell you generally how it works for women.
	Sorry, I don't mean to mansplain femininity to you, so I apologize in advance, but I'm going to do it anyway because I'm foolishly brave, all right?
	So this is how it works for women, particularly women who feel out of control.
	When women feel out of control, either because of hormones or a chaotic husband or financial issues or whatever, right?
	Women who feel out of control will try to reestablish control by organizing the environment.
	And that way, because if they feel out of control internally, if women feel out of control internally and the place is a mess, it's overwhelming and it short-circuits the brain.
	So if you feel out of control often as a woman, and men do it in different ways, right?
	But as a woman, if you feel out of control, what you will probably try to do is to exercise extra control over your environment.
	If you feel chaotic on the inside, you are going to try and do your very best to make sure there's no mess in your environment, because otherwise you just feel like you're in an asylum, like you're crazy inside and your environment is crazy and it's just, right?
	Does this make sense?
	A hundred percent.
	Right.
	So then you're asking your children to manage your psychological health by tidying up after themselves.
	That's unfair.
	It's not their fault that you feel chaotic on the inside, right?
	It's not their fault that your marriage is going through challenges, right?
	They didn't choose your husband.
	They didn't choose you.
	They didn't choose the marriage, right?
	They're just born into it.
	That's like blaming people who wash up on shore because there's a volcano erupting.
	It's not their fault, right?
	So you're asking your children to manage Your internal anxiety or chaos or frustration or alienation or difficulties in your marriage.
	You're asking them to make the environment tidier so you feel better.
	Yeah.
	And that's unfair, right?
	It's not their fault.
	Correct.
	And then what happens is you make them responsible for managing your upset, right?
	So then when they make you more upset, you feel like they're aggressing against you.
	Like they're doing something to you and therefore you yell at them.
	Because you're just self-defense at this point, right?
	They're supposed to make you feel better.
	If they're not making you feel better, it's their fault.
	But your emotions, I mean, you know this, right?
	I'm just reminding you, right?
	Because we all need this reminder as parents.
	Your emotions are not your children's responsibility.
	It's not their job to manage your emotions.
	It's your job.
	Yeah.
	Now, it also hasn't escaped my attention, and you can tell me how relevant this is, right?
	Did you ever try to help your parents or fix your parents with their addiction?
	Did you ever try to talk to your dad about his drinking or your mom about her drug use or anything like that?
	Have you ever tried?
	I mean, if your mom is still, as you say, addicted to opiates, have you ever tried talking to her about rehab or anything like that?
	No, not rehab.
	But maybe reducing her intake or finding some other way to manage her pain or anything like that.
	I don't know if that's medically appropriate.
	I'm just curious if you have talked to her about that.
	I've talked to her a lot about smoking.
	Okay, so she's a smoker.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you've tried to help her with at least one of her addictions.
	And what about your dad and his drinking?
	Have you ever tried talking to him about that?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And he won't admit that there's a fault, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you understand.
	And of course, with your very first boyfriend, you were trying to manage his dysfunction in terms of suicidality and bulimia and the mania and so on, right?
	Bipolar, you said, I think, right?
	Right.
	So you try to fix people's addictions.
	Yeah.
	Does it work?
	No.
	No.
	See, a lot of times when people are around addicts, they focus on, oh my gosh, my husband, my mother, my father, my brother has this addiction, right?
	But the real, the more subtle addiction is your addiction to trying to fix addicts.
	Sure.
	So if somebody's an alcoholic, a lot of times the person who enables it is kind of addicted to the chaos and the helplessness, right?
	Because as a kid, you were kind of helpless.
	And so if you try to fix people's addictions, you're helpless.
	So this feeling of helplessness, of wanting to fix things but feeling helpless, seems to me kind of a theme.
	Yeah.
	And then you want to fix your kids, make them be tidy up, and you're helpless about that.
	And you want to fix your husband's porn addiction, but you're helpless about that.
	And you want him to not be coarse, but you're helpless about that.
	And you want to fix your dad's drinking, but you're helpless about that.
	And you want to fix your mom's smoking, but you're helpless about that.
	So I think that's the pattern that's right at the core.
	And you're actually not even trying to fix other people.
	You're trying to make yourself feel better.
	Yeah.
	Because you cannot fix addicts.
	Thank you.
	Now, that doesn't mean that addicts can't change or anything like that, but you can't fix them.
	Because it doesn't work, right?
	And the other thing, if you're addicted to fixing addicts, then them not fixing themselves is actually part of your addiction.
	They won't fix themselves because they know that deep down, if they fix themselves, you'll go find another addict to deal with.
	And to try and fix.
	They keep your attention by not fixing their addiction.
	Does that make sense?
	So while at the top level you want them to fix their addiction, probably deep down, I don't know for sure, it's just a hypothesis, right?
	but probably deep down you don't want them to fix their addiction because then you wouldn't have anything to do or even know how to interact with them.
	I don't know if this fits or makes any sense to you or I don't mean that you understand it.
	Do you agree with any of that possible approach?
	I don't know about if they get fixed.
	If he gets fixed, I wouldn't know how to interact with him.
	Okay, when was the last time you had a long relationship with a guy who didn't need any fixing?
	I dated someone in my early 20s.
	That was fine.
	Okay.
	And how long did that relationship last?
	Is this the guy where you decided that just wasn't going to work out?
	No.
	That's somebody I haven't mentioned yet.
	Okay.
	So there was a guy in your early 20s who was functional and didn't need any fixing, right?
	We all can grow, but yeah.
	I'm sorry?
	It wasn't, he wasn't, we all need to, we have stuff to deal with.
	No, he didn't need any fixing.
	Look, honestly, my wife doesn't, I don't need to fix anything about her.
	Yeah, no, it was, he was fine.
	Okay, so he was fine, and how long did that relationship last?
	Not quite a year.
	Okay.
	And why did that end?
	I was shocked he just broke up with me.
	It wasn't working.
	Okay.
	Why did he break up with you?
	Probably didn't see us going in the same path.
	Oh, come on.
	Don't give me this nonsense.
	Like, why?
	Come on.
	That's generic back-of-the-card stuff.
	Why did he break out with you?
	Um, Well, no, probably because we did some sexual things together.
	We didn't have sex, but he wanted to wait for all that for marriage.
	Okay, but you married your husband in five months.
	Why didn't you marry this guy?
	Um, wasn't in a rush, I guess.
	Probably I was looking for somebody who was willing to wait.
	Well, did he know about the men and boys you'd slept with in your teens?
	Yeah.
	And did he want to get married sooner?
	I mean, if you're not going to have sex, you've got to get married quick, right?
	We're not designed to just be celibate for like a year while being around someone we want to have sex with.
	That's not healthy, right?
	Yeah.
	Did he have a sexual history himself?
	Not that I know of, no.
	Okay, so did he viewed no sex before marriage as a virtue, right?
	Right?
	Is that right?
	Right.
	Okay, so why would he date you?
	I mean, no disrespect, right?
	But you'd had a lot of sex without being married, right?
	Because people change.
	So then he was trying to fix you?
	No.
	It was probably like four years since I dated somebody.
	Okay, so then if he's asking you to be celibate before marriage, why didn't he propose?
	I'm just trying to understand why the breakup happened.
	We didn't know each other.
	I'm sorry?
	Like, I think, I don't know, maybe the goal was to date a year and then get married.
	Well, what was his plan?
	What did he say?
	I think he just decided I wasn't the one.
	Okay, so are you saying that he dated you for a year with no plan for when you were going to get engaged and married?
	I guess so.
	Well, sorry, what do you mean you guessed so?
	You were there.
	I wasn't.
	Well, I think we were still getting to know each other.
	Oh, come on.
	It's a year.
	I mean, our ancestors got married after two months.
	You got married after five months when you were 29. You date for a year, no sexual activity, no plan, no engagement, no future, no nothing?
	Well, but we did do sexual stuff.
	Not intercourse, but we did.
	Okay, so you did sexual stuff.
	Well, welcome to the reality, right?
	Just a lot of married couples do, and then they get married.
	Like, I did this in my Wild West presentation, like a third of marriages in America...
	Back in the 19th century, they can tell that they had intercourse because they can tell when they got married and then when the first baby was.
	It's like a third of...
	They actually had procreative intercourse and then they just got married.
	That's the foundation for at least a third of marriages.
	And that's not even counting non-procreative ways of having sex.
	Right?
	So, yes.
	Okay.
	I hate to say big deal, but basically big deal.
	So you fooled around a little bit, then you just get married.
	Right?
	I guess he just decided I wasn't the one.
	I don't know.
	Okay, so that's not an answer, though, right?
	Yeah.
	So you couldn't sustain a relationship with a guy who didn't have any drama going on?
	Apparently.
	Okay, don't get passive-aggressive with me.
	That's annoying.
	Sorry.
	Okay, don't get all apparently and it's like, no, no, you're telling me the story.
	I'm trying to understand the story.
	So...
	Once in your life, you had a relationship with a guy who didn't need fixing.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Except he also wasn't assertive and helping, like, figuring out when you're getting married or what the plan was or anything, right?
	Yeah.
	And how long before you broke up did you start engaging in sexual activity?
	Uh...
	I'm not sure.
	I mean, a week, a month, six months, just roughly.
	Oh, probably months, yeah.
	Months?
	Okay, so you're engaging in sexual activity for months, and then he breaks up with you, and did he say why?
	Did he say why he broke up with you?
	Not that I recall.
	He just said it's over, and I'm not telling you why.
	Well, like, it's not working out.
	I don't know.
	Oh, he said it's not working out?
	Yeah.
	Didn't see us...
	Our lives are all on the same path.
	Okay, before he broke up with you, did he tell you that he had any issues with the relationship, or did he just break up with you out of nowhere and no...
	Out of nowhere.
	I'm sorry?
	It was out of nowhere.
	It was super shocking.
	Okay, so he's messed up, right?
	Because it's not really fair to date a woman and start engaging in sexual activity, then break up with her out of the blue with no warning and no recourse.
	Like there wasn't anything you could do or change or fix, right?
	So that's cruel.
	Yeah, it was hard.
	Did you think that there was anything wrong with the relationship or did you think everything was fine?
	Well, we believed we should have waited.
	Did you think there was anything wrong with the relationship or did you think everything was fine?
	Yes, I thought stuff was wrong with the relationship.
	Outside of the sexual matters, what did you think was wrong with the relationship?
	Nothing outside of the sexual matters.
	Okay, so outside of the sexual matters, which obviously he'd agreed with and went along with for months, you thought things were fine, so he was hiding from you that things were not fine, and he gave you no chance to change, and he just dumped you without any explanation and without any warning and without any recourse, right?
	So that's really cruel, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so he is a guy who kind of needed fixing in that he didn't know how to communicate to another living soul in any reasonable way.
	Is that fair?
	No.
	Okay, so he needed fixing because he was a terrible communicator and just dumped you after sexual activity with no warning and no recourse.
	Okay, so you've never dated a guy who doesn't need fixing.
	Yeah.
	So that's a pattern, right?
	I mean, I know this is going to be tough, but in my view, you've got to stop trying to fix your husband.
	Stop shaming him, stop putting him down, stop trying to change him and just say, I'm going to find a way to love him or accept him as he is.
	Because shame might be part of his kink.
	Like, it might be masochism, right?
	I mean, to name and shame, I guess every, what, one he's ever looked up on the internet.
	I mean, that's kind of masochistic, right?
	And stop, you know, stop trying to fix your kids.
	Stop trying to fix your parents.
	Stop trying to fix your husband.
	And stop trying to manage your own emotions by controlling other people.
	Wow.
	Thank you.
	I do know.
	Control.
	So, I mean, I've been married for 22 years.
	And so, obviously, I'm not any kind of final boss of expertise or anything like this, but I will tell you this for absolute certain.
	Once you get married to a man, and once you have his children, you lose the complete right and ability to criticize him in any foundational way.
	Like, if I have five months to choose a car, and I choose this particular car, I choose, I don't know, a Volvo with a sunroof that's red and has four doors, right?
	Do I get to bring it home after I've been able to test drive it for five months straight, I finally bring it home, and then I'm just unhappy with everything to do with my Volvo or my car?
	Does that make any sense at all?
	Mm-hmm.
	Once you say, I love you, once you say, I'm married to you, and certainly once you have children, you lose the right of criticism.
	You do.
	You lose the right of criticism.
	You chose the man, you chose to date him, you chose to get engaged, you chose to get married, and you chose to live with him for years, and you chose to have three children with him.
	You cannot criticize him.
	You have to give up that right.
	Because you can't say to someone, these are the vows, holding no others before you, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, in rich or for worse, till death do us part.
	That's the vow you made to God himself, right?
	You have to give up the right of criticism.
	You have to give up the right of nagging.
	It destroys marriages, and contempt is the biggest predictor of divorce.
	You have to give up the right of correcting someone because once you say, I love you, we are one flesh, we have made children, you cannot criticize him.
	And he has to give up that right for you as well.
	Because to become one flesh, you know, like if I look at my arms and I say, oh man, I've got noodle arms, they're really weak, it's terrible.
	How can I blame my arms?
	It's my choice.
	I chose not to lift weights.
	You are one flesh.
	Attacking him is like your boyfriend cutting into his own shoulder.
	In that very vivid description you gave about an hour and a half ago, right?
	You are harming yourself when you attack your husband, when you put him down.
	You say, oh, but he's doing things that I don't like.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yes, he is.
	But you chose him.
	He is a reflection of your choice.
	Everything that you say you have contempt around with him is actually contempt at yourself.
	Every time you criticize him, you're criticizing yourself.
	Every time you attack him, you're attacking yourself because he's only there because of your choice.
	Remember I told you this thing about I wasn't going to let you do the victim thing?
	Why is your husband in your life?
	Because you chose him.
	So if you attack him, you are attacking your own choices.
	You are putting yourself down.
	Is he perfect?
	No.
	Are you perfect?
	No.
	Am I perfect?
	No.
	My wife is perfect, but that's a different matter, right?
	But you can't attack him without...
	It's like you're saying the person in the mirror is just ugly and stupid.
	It's like you're just attacking yourself.
	He is a reflection of your choices and your commitments.
	You chose him.
	You've made a vow before God to love him.
	If you attack him and put him down and treat him with contempt and this and that, and he's treating you with contempt, but I'm talking to you, not him, right?
	You know, this gross shut up and suck it stuff, it's contempt and it's gross, absolutely, but I'm talking to you, not him.
	If I was talking to him and if he wants to call in, I'd be happy to chat with him too.
	But you cannot treat your spouse with contempt.
	You cannot fundamentally criticize your spouse.
	You are attacking your own choices.
	If I have six months and an infinite amount of money in which to buy a house and I finally buy a house and then I spend the next seven and a half years bitching about how terrible the house is, I'm just attacking my own choices.
	Nobody forced me to buy a house.
	Nobody forced me to buy that house.
	Nobody forced you to get married and nobody forced you to marry this man.
	This is your choice.
	And the children are a reflection of your choice.
	So every time you attack your husband, you're also attacking your children.
	Because you chose to marry him, and you chose to have children with him.
	And every time you attack your husband, you are attacking half of your children, because he's half of your children, right?
	Your children are half him.
	Giving up the right of criticism in marriage is really, really...
	Now, does this mean that you're never going to have any feedback?
	No.
	If your husband is about to drive through red lights, right?
	You say, whoa, there's red lights!
	Stop!
	I'm not saying don't ever have any feedback.
	Of course have feedback, right?
	If your husband is gaining weight, you say, oh, you know, maybe you're getting a little heavy and let's check your weight and let's check your diet.
	I'm not saying don't have any opinions, don't have any thoughts, don't have any feedback.
	I'm not saying be a blank slate.
	But any kind of foundation or moral criticism, you gave that up at the altar.
	Because you made a vow.
	To love, to honor, I don't know if you threw obey in there, but to love and to honor.
	So every time you are criticizing your husband, you're breaking your vows.
	You say, oh yes, but he's doing things that are unacceptable to me.
	But you lost that right.
	You gave up that right when you married him.
	You dated, got engaged, married and had kids with him.
	And he's given up that right with regards to you too.
	So you guys both bitching at each other is a sin.
	It is a sin against the vows you made to Almighty God.
	And you guys both have had too much indifference and criticism from others over the course of your lives.
	Is that a fair thing to say?
	No.
	Is adding to it solving anything?
	No.
	Your husband in my view was Crushingly neglected as a child.
	Because he had this secret from the age of 13 onwards.
	Or maybe he's had other secrets if you talk to him about other things that may have happened negatively to him as a child.
	His parents did not inquire about it.
	They did not ask him about it.
	So he's had a secret from when he was a child.
	And that is a very tough burden to carry.
	It's not his fault that his parents did not protect him from the ravages of pornography when he was 13. And criticizing and bitching at him and humiliating him and shaming him and making him name every search he's ever done is not solving the problem, problem, is it?
	Um, no.
	Have either of you ever been fully accepted for who you are?
	What's in all?
	Sins in all?
	Flaws in all?
	Doesn't Jesus embrace the sinner?
	Only one.
	Well, but we try to do what Jesus does, right?
	If you embrace him, it will ease your heart.
	Because behind this bravado, behind this addiction, is sorrow and isolation.
	He was lonely as a child.
	You said his siblings were much older.
	He was lonely as a child.
	And when you're lonely and isolated and neglected and abandoned to some degree, to a large degree, it sounds like, as a child, you turn to whatever dopamine you can get.
	You turn to whatever will make you happy.
	And in this case, it happened to be this material and masturbation, right?
	But he did that because he was miserable.
	And the more you make him unhappy, the more he's going to be tempted by this kind of behavior, because how does he manage being unhappy?
	He goes for whatever dopamine he can get, and in this case it's this material in masturbation, right?
	So the more you shame and humiliate him, the more you're recreating the very circumstances that drove him to the sin in the first place.
	And it's not easy.
	Right?
	This is what, I think, to me, this is what love your enemy means.
	You're viewing this addiction as an enemy, and I get that, and I'm not saying it's good or right or anything like that.
	But shaming and attacking and rejecting him, that doesn't work.
	And I think the Bible and Jesus are fairly clear on that part.
	And you're not perfect, I'm not perfect, that he who is without sin casts the first stone.
	Right?
	So he had a pornography addiction and you were promiscuous.
	You tell me in the annals of good and bad which one is just objectively a thousand times worse.
	I can't tell.
	No.
	No.
	Let he who is without sin, let she who is without sin cast the first stone.
	Oh, for sure.
	Now, I understand, I fully understand that this behavior is still continuing, whereas your promiscuity has not, so I'm not blind to that, and I fully accept and understand that.
	But I think asking him more about his childhood and inquiring more about his isolation, more about his loneliness, is probably the best way to approach it, rather than this continual blame and shame stuff.
	Yeah.
	Sorry for the long speech.
	Hopefully it wasn't too much of a lecture, but that's my sort of thoughts about the matter, if that helps.
	No, I appreciate it.
	I just feel like you asked, have you ever been fully loved for who we are?
	I feel like my husband...
	It doesn't.
	I just feel used for taking care of the kids and the house and the bills and all and sucks.
	Like, I just...
	Okay, but does your husband feel used for having to pay all the bills?
	Does he just feel used for his wallet and his work and his night job?
	Does he love going to work?
	Or would he rather stay home and play with the kids?
	You probably stay home and play with the kids.
	You think?
	So, again, this is the self-pity thing, right?
	Rather than say, well, I just feel used for taking care of the kids.
	Well, first of all, that's an insult to your kids.
	I assume that you enjoy taking care of the kids, right?
	And secondly, if you think that men never feel like walking wallets, you think again.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I mean, you, quote, use him for money, right?
	I'm not saying you'd use him, use him, but, you know, he's got to go to work.
	He doesn't want to do that.
	Right.
	So that's what I mean about, like, reach across the aisle and ask him about his isolation, ask him about what happened to him as a kid, and understand that, yes, look, occasionally you will feel used.
	Of course what?
	And guess what?
	Occasionally your husband doesn't want to go to work, but he goes for the good of the family, and he feels not good about that.
	I mean, you know this.
	We all have to make sacrifices to have and raise families, right?
	Some of your sacrifices are clear.
	His sacrifices might not be as clear, but they exist, don't they?
	I mean, you're not living in a box under a bridge, right?
	When he goes to work, how much of the income he makes does he get to spend on things that he wants?
	You can't really do anything extra.
	Right, so he takes his money and he turns it over for the good of the family.
	Right.
	And that's not always fun for a man.
	No.
	But that's the kind of thing where instead of saying, well, I feel used and feeling sorry for yourself, rather than saying, well, gee, I wonder if my husband ever feels...
	This, this, right?
	As opposed to just focusing on yourself, really try and reach across the aisle and figure out what's going on for him.
	Because that's going to bring you guys closer together.
	All of this, like, throwing rocks over the fence and hitting each other just drives you further apart.
	And the end result of that is probably divorce, which you need to do everything, in my view, because, especially because you've got kids, you need to do everything you can to avoid.
	I don't want to.
	Um...
	Okay, then you have to stop blaming and attacking and you have to start sympathizing with and understanding.
	And maybe that will work.
	I don't know, right?
	Because there's free will.
	But you have to do something different than what you've been doing.
	And if what you're doing hasn't been working, probably doing the opposite is a good plan.
	Well, you're right.
	Like, how do I respond?
	Like, the reason why I feel used is because he's like, oh, tell the housekeeper to clean the dishes.
	And like, he calls me the housekeeper and And his baby mama and stuff like that.
	I'm like, I'm a lot more than that.
	Like, I'm your wife.
	And like, so that's how he talks to me.
	And that's why I feel like this.
	I get that.
	That is a hard, hard problem to solve.
	And what does Jesus say you return negative experiences with?
	Awesome.
	Ask him about his childhood.
	Ask him about what happened with him as a teenager.
	Ask him about, did he have anything negative sexual as a kid?
	Not as a leverage over him, but just genuinely curious, right?
	And I've got a whole book on this called Real-Time Relationships, which you can get for free at my website at freedomain.com.
	So I would really recommend that book.
	You can get it in audiobook and all of that.
	You can listen to it as you see fit.
	But...
	Okay, if he's got such a great family, where did he learn to talk to women like that?
	Where's he getting this from?
	Is it like, I don't know, is he some Andrew Tate guy?
	Like, I don't know.
	Where's he getting all of this from?
	Try to understand his thinking.
	If he's got contempt for you, do you have contempt for him?
	Well, you can't control his contempt for you, but you can control your contempt for him.
	And someone's got to start moving this thing in the right direction.
	Does he treat you badly?
	It sounds like absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	And I'm really sorry for that, and I wish he wasn't doing that.
	I really do.
	But you can only control your own behavior.
	And trying to get to understand what's behind this aggressive facade, trying to figure out what's going on deep down in his heart has to be the way forward because otherwise you guys could keep throwing insults at each other and then eventually you just get divorced.
	And maybe if you take a step towards him with gentleness and curiosity, he'll start taking steps towards you.
	Maybe it won't work.
	I don't know.
	But it's your best shot, isn't it?
	He apparently isn't talking to me.
	Because yesterday, I sent him the thing.
	And then he's like, Sorry, I'm not perfect.
	Sorry, the thing...
	Remind me what the thing is?
	Like a quote or whatever.
	The quote...
	Let's see what...
	Emotionally safe people will care if they hurt you.
	They won't just apologize.
	They'll work to repair the relationship and actually change their behavior.
	Yes, but you don't believe that at all.
	This is what he's driving him crazy.
	I guarantee you that.
	You don't believe that at all because your parents haven't apologized and they're still welcome in your life.
	Right?
	Yeah, he's not a fan.
	Maybe get off the high horse of all of these values that you have, which he can plainly see you don't live by.
	Do you think he can't see the relationship with your parents?
	No, he sees.
	He probably knows more than I even realize.
	Okay, so give me that quote again.
	Um...
	Um...
	Emotionally safe people will care if they hurt you.
	Okay.
	Have your parents ever shown any care that they've hurt you?
	No.
	Okay.
	So, they're still welcome in your life.
	So, instead of crabbing at your husband, maybe go talk honestly with your parents.
	Because if you can't fix the stuff with your parents, how are you supposed to fix the stuff with your husband?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	The stuff with your husband, it's an effect of what you accept with your parents, and he can see that.
	So you sending him this message, which is a high and mighty way of saying, well, I just think it's unacceptable when people don't take responsibility for hurting you.
	It's like you've never even really talked honestly with your parents about their neglect or what they've done to hurt you.
	So you don't have credibility, and you shouldn't.
	Because if you want to fix things, your parents' relationship predated this guy by almost 30 years.
	Why is he getting all the flack for the bad things your parents did?
	and why are you having these standards with him that you won't even have with your parents?
	That's what I mean by not being a victim, right?
	Thank you.
	Alright, does that make sense?
	And I say this with great affection and care for your family as a whole.
	I'm certainly not trying to blame you.
	We all have inconsistencies, right?
	And so I'm just sort of trying to point them out emphatically so that you can deal with the root problem, which I would assume is what's going on with your parents, rather than, I think, the shadow that's cast by what's going on with your husband.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Well, we've been talking for a good old time.
	Is there anything that you wanted to mention as we wind up?
	Um...
	Oh...
	I thought...
	I know...
	Um...
	There's so much...
	Don't get too tense, you're breastfeeding!
	Sorry, just kidding, go on.
	Um...
	I thought you were going to tell me that I should probably separate from my husband like other people have been telling me.
	I'm here for the kids.
	I mean, obviously for you and your husband, but your kids, you've got three kids.
	And you were in love enough with your husband to make a kid six months and nine months ago, right?
	So less than a year and a half ago.
	So what's best for the kids is that you and your husband work it out.
	Otherwise, they're children of a single mom, and you know what kind of men are going to want to date single moms, not particularly great men to have around your kids.
	So I'm here primarily focusing on what's best for the children because they're not here by choice.
	You and your husband are here by choice.
	Yeah.
	So I personally, I mean, I'm just flying by here, but I don't think that I don't think that it's best for your kids if you separate.
	Now, of course, if you hate your husband and he hates you and it's just contempt and venom, but, you know, you have choices about that.
	Yes.
	You have choices about how you interact with your husband.
	And if he wants to call in, he's certainly welcome to do so.
	And I can talk with him, maybe as sternly as I'm talking to you, which, again, I do with great affection.
	But...
	It's not good for your kids.
	And how old were you when your parents split up?
	Like four.
	Right.
	So that's about your eldest child's age, right?
	So there might be a primitive memory going on here as well that this is difficult because of what your parents did.
	And obviously you would much rather your parents had worked things out and been mature rather than split up and put you through all this mess, right?
	Uh-huh.
	So that's how we break the cycle is not making the same mistakes our parents made.
	Yeah.
	It's just so hard when he's constantly not choosing me.
	And yesterday, he texted me.
	He said, I'm sorry, I'm not perfect.
	I don't expect you to be.
	And he's like, maybe someday you'll find him.
	And I said, what does that mean?
	Oh, he means the perfect guy who you won't ever criticize.
	Like, is he saying he's going to leave me?
	No, he's saying that you have a standard of perfection.
	I'm not saying he's right, but I can tell you as a man, what he's saying is you have a standard of perfection that I can't possibly meet.
	Now, the only reason you'd have that standard of perfection is because you think you can meet it.
	You think that you will get a perfect guy.
	So he's being bitter and sardonic, saying, well, I hope you meet this perfect guy.
	So let's say that I was your husband, right?
	And I said, well, I deserve a woman who's got the figure of a Victoria's Secret model and the brain of Albert Einstein, and she's perfectly moral and perfectly virtuous and never ages, right?
	Yeah.
	You'd be like, hey, good luck meeting her, right?
	I hope you meet her.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	That's just a sarcastic way of saying, I have irrational standards.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	You don't think he's literally saying like...
	No, he's not literally saying that.
	He's saying, your standards are killing me.
	Yeah.
	And what faults, what faults do you have that he can call you on, right?
	So you've got the addiction stuff and all of that, but what faults?
	I mean, you have faults, right?
	I mean, you're yelling at the kids, right?
	You have faults.
	You have some unrealistic standards, perhaps, and you haven't inquired as to the wounds that produced his addiction and all of that.
	I mean, you might want to, there's a great book by Dr. Gabor Mate, M-A-T-E, called In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts that talks about how addictions form and why.
	And addictions are ways of trying to self-medicate childhood trauma.
	And by blaming the addiction, you're just adding more trauma, more upset.
	And that's why it doesn't solve it.
	All right.
	Well, I'm going to have to go and get something to eat.
	I can't do much philosophy on this empty stomach.
	So will you listen?
	I obviously hugely care.
	I hope you keep me posted about how things are going.
	And of course, I do offer, if there's anything I can talk about with your husband, I sympathize with where he's coming from.
	While at the same time, he does obviously, but behavior needs to improve.
	So I'd be happy to chat with him if he wants to set something up.
	And I hope that you'll keep me posted about how things are going.
	Thank you so much.
	I really wish the very best for you and your family.
	And look, you guys are really working hard to improve things from how you were raised.
	And you're doing a good job in many ways.
	Your kids are doing way better than you guys were doing at that age.
	So there's a huge amount to be admired here.
	And I hope that you guys can work it out.
	I appreciate it.
	All right.
	Lots of love.

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