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Nov. 20, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:33:38

How to Support Your Spouse! Freedomain Call In

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Time	Text
	Hey, how's it going?
	Good, how are you?
	Well, I am all right.
	I am all right.
	And I'm glad that we had some time today.
	So, I am all ears.
	Why don't you lay it out for me and we'll see what we can do to help?
	Okay.
	Well, I guess I'll start from the beginning of our relationship.
	We met in 2018 at the beginning of that year.
	I just came off the divorce.
	I was like 31 and the woman I divorced didn't want kids.
	So when I got out of that relationship, I was ready to have kids.
	I wanted to have kids.
	That was my goal.
	I was also getting into a new job, started a new career.
	So things were changing, and then I met her, my wife, and we clicked right away.
	We bonded over, well, you.
	Very wise.
	So far, I approve.
	Yeah.
	I red-pilled.
	I guess you could say I red-pilled her.
	We had long discussions over politics, politics, Yeah, our family.
	We did bond over our family, our trauma, I guess you would say.
	And then we talked a lot about what we wanted, and so she moved in shortly after.
	And then the next year, we moved again, and then we got married in 2020.
	Okay.
	Go ahead.
	Shortly.
	Hi, Stefan.
	Hi.
	By the way.
	We can stay off names, but yeah, go ahead.
	Oh, okay.
	Sorry.
	Anyway, so yeah, like you said, we met in 2018.
	We ended up getting married in 2020 in May, and then that December found out we were pregnant with our first son.
	After we found out, and during that process of like, You know, dating and getting engaged.
	At one point, we had both kind of, well, not kind of, we both stopped talking to either of our families for various reasons.
	And then shortly after finding out that I was pregnant, I'm sorry, my husband decided that he wanted to speak with his family.
	Again, I was not comfortable with that, especially finding out that I was newly pregnant, like I was very anxious about it.
	But he had wanted to do it regardless.
	And long story short, we did start talking to them.
	I had our first son.
	I ended up having postpartum depression and anxiety.
	And I think the lack of me not having any family or really any friends around to help didn't make it any better.
	And basically, like, We've just gone through a lot since having our kids, now we have two, that has really just kind of, I don't know, what's the word?
	Kind of...
	Failure on both of our parts.
	No, no, wait, I wanted her word.
	It's fine if you take a while to get it.
	It's an important word.
	He's better at words.
	Yeah, it's just kind of dissolved, I guess, our relationship, for lack of a better term.
	I mean, for years, even in spite of all the hardships, I always felt that I always looked forward to seeing my husband, and that's going to be hard not saying names, sorry.
	Just use Bob and Jane.
	Okay.
	But, you know, I would still always, like, get excited to see him.
	And, like, I always still felt that, I don't know, like, I don't know what to even say, I guess.
	It's just that recently, now that I'm not pregnant or postpartum, for the first time in four years, there's a lot of things that I have that are all just kind of hitting me at once.
	And I'm starting to kind of, like, I feel like the fog of motherhood is starting to lift a little bit now that my kids are getting a little bit more independent.
	And it's, I just feel kind of checked out in our, with my husband now.
	All right.
	So, Bob, what was your decision to separate from your family of origin?
	And what was your decision to reconnect?
	Oh, um, well, My decision to leave them was because of my mother.
	She is very emotionally manipulative.
	She was cold throughout my childhood, kind of neglectful.
	I mean, I was taken care of, of course, food and shelter and all that, but No, I get that you're still here.
	I get the bare minimum of physical stuff was done.
	Otherwise, it would be a very odd conversation.
	But sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, I was just kind of a piece of furniture growing up.
	And around the time that her and I met, I was really thinking a lot about My wife here really helped me through this.
	One of the reasons why I married her, she's a smart girl.
	She made me realize that when I go around my parents, my stepdad and my mom, I check out.
	I don't talk.
	I exclude myself.
	I just sit there.
	I did a lot of thinking and And so that summer, I just told my mom, you know what?
	I just want a break.
	I'm not going to come around for a while.
	Well, that very night, she showed up at my apartment.
	And my wife was there as well, living there.
	And she went crazy.
	She forced her way in.
	She was belligerent.
	I mean, she was insane.
	She tried taking his phone.
	She was threatening to call the cops.
	Threatening to have him instituted.
	Based on what?
	Because he's an only child.
	And for years, even with all his previous relationships, his previous marriage, his mother is very controlling and narcissistic.
	And it was like, even if If he wasn't happy to be around, she would still want him around.
	He was in the habit of nearly every weekend of going over there.
	When we were dating, like he said, we would be over there and he would just literally sit on the floor and zone out.
	Then you're like, what the heck am I doing here, right?
	Yeah, because it's like, okay, I don't enjoy them.
	They're very awkward.
	I come from a completely different background.
	His parents.
	And it was just like, now I'm forced into having conversations with these people that I don't even enjoy being around.
	Like, why are we coming over here?
	And so it all started with him just kind of not texting her all the time.
	And all of a sudden, we just didn't go over there for a couple weekends.
	He wasn't even going to...
	He wasn't even at the point where he was going to excommunicate.
	Yeah, I didn't even give her that ultimatum.
	I just said, I'm just going to take just a break.
	I wasn't specific, but...
	Now, I don't mean to sound like a nag, and just so you know, when I ask these questions, I don't ask them from a place of judgment.
	You know, when I say to people, well, why would you think that?
	It sounds aggressive.
	I don't.
	I mean, and I try to sort of phrase it like, why would you think that?
	But so, just so you know, I'm just information gathering.
	I might get all judgy later, but right now, I'm just information gathering.
	So, what I've talked about is, you know, you have issues with your parents, you should sit down and try and talk about it with them, maybe go to therapy or whatever.
	Did you go through the process, and again, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have, I just want to know, did you go through the process of talking to your parents about issues you had with them in childhood and with them as parents?
	Not formally.
	Not at that point.
	We just hit a fog bank, didn't we?
	Not formally.
	I'm not saying you have to wear a tux.
	What do you mean, not formally?
	I'm not saying you didn't do the right thing.
	I'm not trying to say that at all.
	I'm just curious whether you did it or how that happened, or if not, why not?
	Just curious.
	Growing up, I saw the hypocrisies from her, and any time I'd point it out, it would be an eruption from her.
	Sorry.
	So you'd see her being hypocritical, you'd try and point out the hypocrisies, and then she'd get aggressive?
	Or, sorry, what would happen?
	No, she wouldn't hit me or anything physical, but she would be belligerent, she would get mad, she would get upset, And then I would pin her down and then she would do crocodile tears.
	I'm the victim.
	I'm the worst mother.
	I'm the worst mother in the world.
	I'm sorry I did that to you.
	Anytime he's ever tried to...
	Oh, so she just couldn't not make it about herself in one way or another, right?
	Yes, yes, exactly.
	So over the years, I mean, starting from a kid, over the years you tried to talk to her about issues and this is what you got back, right?
	Yeah, I tried different tactics.
	I tried getting upset.
	I tried being very, very calm.
	I mean, I tried everything to get through to her.
	Okay, so you did, I mean, it sounds like you did a very honorable process, look at me getting judgy, but it sounds like you went through a very honorable process of trying to say what your issues were, try to get your needs met, try to get your point across, and so on, right?
	Yeah, and I was in high school when I was doing that, so, you know, I was...
	And your father, how was your relationship with your father growing up?
	My biological father, my mom kicked him out when I was three.
	That was my first memories, was him leaving, me crying.
	Separating from family members is totally acceptable to her, right?
	Right, yeah.
	She's not that much of a leg to stand on because the guy she chose to marry and have kids with, she kicked him out and your relationship with your parents isn't even a chosen one.
	So, okay, I think I'm starting to see some of the hypocrisy here.
	And my biological father and my mother, their relationship was very peculiar because they, and I got this piece by piece over the years because my family does not talk about our family history.
	Not talk.
	Anything uncomfortable.
	Anything uncomfortable?
	No, you will not get it from them.
	So piecemeal throughout the years, I've learned that they were together for almost a decade before me.
	And then when my mom was 29 and my dad was 35, that's when they had me.
	And then two, three years later, that was it.
	So it's just kind of strange why she would be with him for that long.
	Well, so a couple of years after the birth of a kid, their marriage was in crisis.
	Kind of sounding...
	No, no, I'm sorry.
	I thought maybe there was a parallel.
	I just don't think that there is.
	I'm just kidding.
	All right, so go on.
	Well, my dad was also kind of a drug addict, so...
	I'm not.
	Second fog bank.
	What does this kind of a drug addict mean?
	And don't bring up my caffeine habit.
	That's totally different.
	Well, again, I don't know the true, clear story.
	And I don't know if he was on drugs then.
	I know he got hooked on drugs in the army 10 years before I was born.
	I don't know if he was doing drugs at that time.
	I know he was an alcohol...
	What drugs?
	What drugs?
	I mean, I'm not saying that, you know, there are good drugs, but, you know, crack cocaine is slightly different from marijuana.
	Well, his sister said that he was on, he was, they got addicted to drugs in the army.
	I thought it was something that they gave him for pain.
	And then later on, I found out years, years later, this is before he died, which was when I was in high school.
	He was addicted to pain medication, probably hydrocodone or something like that.
	And he was also drinking.
	Oh, yeah.
	I mean, the army is brutal for that, right?
	I mean, they just march you till your knees give out and then jam you full of painkillers.
	Right, right.
	And did he die of the drugs or something else?
	I was told that he died of walking pneumonia by himself in his apartment.
	Of walking pneumonia?
	Yes.
	I'm not sure what that is.
	I think it's some sort of pneumonia where it's Maybe less severe.
	I'm not sure either.
	I mean, I know what each of those words means.
	I just don't know what they mean together.
	Okay, but it doesn't hugely matter.
	So, I mean, maybe his immune system was weakened by the drugs or something or just ill health as a whole.
	But because, you know, it was odd that he would die, what, in his 50s from pneumonia?
	That seems a bit odd.
	Yeah, he was 55, 60, something like that.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I remember when that seemed pretty old to me.
	Anyway, we'll talk about my aging, perhaps, in the next call-in.
	Because, you know, everyone, it's all about you, you, you.
	I'm just kidding.
	All right.
	So, he died, and then, but I guess after you were three, and your mom kicked your dad out, how long did it take for her to get remarried?
	Three or four years.
	Okay, got it.
	And your stepdad, how were things with him?
	He's still around.
	He's pretty much a doormat.
	He's been my whole life.
	He just does what she says, and he's passive-aggressive.
	I mean, he's a nice enough guy, but that's about it.
	Well, no, no.
	He's not a nice enough guy if he has a job to protect you from your mother or to protect the child, right?
	And he didn't stand up for you.
	It sounds like he didn't stand up for you against your mother.
	No, no, no.
	He defends her.
	Oh, yeah.
	He defends her to the...
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So he's a collaborator and a colluder and part of the equation of whatever's going on, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	He'll do whatever to keep things, you know, calm over at the household, you know, just to keep things good there so he's comfortable and she's not nagging him or whatever.
	Well, sorry, I have a slight problem with the way you're phrasing it, and that doesn't mean that I'm right.
	Obviously, I'm just meeting this situation for the first time.
	So, you know, that he just tries to appease things and so on makes him sound a little bit like a victim.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	But he chose a woman this aggressive.
	He chose a woman who was aggressive with her children and manipulative and so on, right?
	So he's not, like, trying to manage a fire and That he didn't set himself, right?
	Right.
	Like, if the arsonist is battling flames because he set fire to his own house by choice, it's a little tough to feel the same kind of sympathy, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I understand that.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, what happened with your...
	Sorry, this is to Bob.
	What happened with your first marriage?
	Okay, so I met her when she was 18.
	I was like 24.
	She was a country girl, fairly conservative enough.
	Her family, or at least her dad, was conservative.
	And that's what I was looking for.
	But I was still young and immature.
	And over the years, we just kind of, I don't know, grew apart, I guess.
	And she didn't want kids.
	She was more...
	Career-oriented and was wanting a family.
	Sorry, if you could stay on the Bob name, that would appreciate it.
	You can write it down if you want, just because I know it's a little tough to remember, but I have to edit names afterwards.
	It's really kind of time-consuming and boring.
	I didn't even know I did it again.
	No, that's fine.
	You can write it on your hand or something like that.
	I'm just making a note.
	Does not take instructions.
	No, I'm just kidding.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	In the middle of our marriage, she...
	I think it was a cry for help.
	She became suicidal, had suicidal ideations, went to a therapist, left this therapist that was on her campus, and got on some kind of pharmaceutical drug for it behind my back because I told her I didn't want her to do that.
	Yeah, I just kind of fizzled out from there.
	Okay, so you kind of dropped an MOAB there, right?
	I don't know what that means.
	Mother of all bombs.
	I guess in this case, I'm mother of all bombs.
	So, you know, well, we just kind of drifted apart, and she was suicidal.
	You know, that's called not leading with the headline, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Yeah, you know, we just, we ended up liking different shows.
	We had slightly different hobbies.
	She was on a roof about to jump.
	You know, a couple of things, right?
	Right.
	So, what the hell?
	What the hell happened?
	She became suicidal.
	What did you do?
	No, I mean, like, what happened?
	I... I really can't tell you.
	Come on, you must know something about her...
	I'm sorry to bring this all up in your current marriage, but you must have known something about her childhood.
	I mean, that suicidal ideation doesn't just pop out of nowhere because you turned left when you should have turned right.
	All of a sudden, one day she came to me and said, I have been...
	I think I'm becoming depressed.
	I mean, this is just out of the blue.
	And the other day I had a...
	No, it's not out of the blue.
	What kind of nonsense are you trying to sell here?
	You didn't notice that she was depressed and suicidal?
	I guess, well, she didn't say, yeah, I don't know.
	I guess not.
	I guess not.
	You guessed not?
	I guess not.
	No, I don't.
	I didn't.
	I did not know.
	Not until she told me.
	So you didn't notice any change in, I mean, they call it the affect, like the general sort of emotional presentation of the person.
	You didn't notice anything about that?
	No, I can't say that I did.
	She didn't seem to become any more unhappy over time?
	No.
	She told me this and she was laughing at the end of it.
	I don't know.
	No, I did not.
	I did not notice anything.
	He had told me, Bob had told me early on.
	It's all right.
	There's only one he in the room, so I get it.
	I wanted you to know I wrote it down.
	I'm looking at it now.
	Thank you.
	He had told me early on that really from the beginning, she was never very emotionally expressive.
	I don't know how else you would say that.
	And he is...
	The same exact way.
	From what he told me in the past, they both really weren't affectionate.
	They just weren't really like that.
	Neither one of them communicated with each other how they felt.
	And I don't think from the beginning, I don't think they really had serious conversations about kids.
	No, we didn't.
	It was until later on, she was going to school, to medical school, to be...
	Physical therapist.
	And so...
	She's got to be a healer!
	Yeah, so all of her focus and energy was going into that.
	They weren't doing well financially.
	He was trying to support them.
	But they were just scrounging by.
	Well, I was working three jobs and she was just going to school and she just wasn't contributing.
	Wait, you were working three jobs and you were broke?
	What the hell are you doing?
	Lemonade stands?
	Yeah, seriously.
	You've got to work hard to not make any money working three jobs.
	Hardly working.
	No, I mean...
	I don't think they were paying very much.
	I don't think at the time he was very driven.
	No, you're driven if you're working three jobs.
	Right?
	Well, driven...
	Driven as in the sense to try to find better paying jobs that they could afford to live more financially stable.
	He had went to college to be a history professor and it was like he studied different things but they never really worked out and it hasn't I think for a long time, he has kind of carried around like a chip on his shoulder as far as maybe subconsciously about not getting into the profession that he wanted to.
	And so instead of just like buckling down and getting a blue-collar job...
	If you guys had good answers to these questions, we wouldn't be talking.
	So I hope you won't mind if...
	If you come to a nutritionist and you're 300 pounds and you have good reasons as to why you're that much weight, they're probably not the right reasons.
	Sorry to be annoying.
	So this is back to Bob.
	You want to become a history professor, right?
	That's right.
	And how high an educational level did you get to?
	I got to my bachelor's degree and I got to the point where I was accepted at a master's program out of state.
	Okay, and then what happened?
	I saw the prices and at that time, that was around the time my marriage was dissolving and I just didn't think I could...
	I didn't want to get into debt, for sure.
	And so, when you were doing the three jobs, how many hours a day were you working?
	It just depended.
	One of my jobs was substitute teacher, so I would only go in maybe once or twice a week.
	It just really depended on the days I could work.
	Oh, so you were trained as a teacher.
	You took your educational certification?
	I was certified in my state, but I wasn't trained in...
	At the university level.
	But you taught history, right?
	In school?
	Yes, I taught.
	And how long ago was this?
	2015.
	Okay, so why didn't you start a podcast?
	I don't know.
	Well, you must have.
	I mean, you were literally listening to a guy with a history degree who started a podcast.
	Right.
	I'm not...
	I don't know.
	I don't know why I didn't.
	Did it ever occur to you?
	No, it did not.
	Really?
	Yeah, I did start a YouTube channel, but...
	Okay, well, that's something, right?
	Got too spicy for YouTube.
	I had some pretty good success.
	I had a 40,000 view video and got 2,000, 3,000 subscribers, like, quick.
	And then YouTube started to blacklist me, and it just...
	I'd lost motivation because I wasn't getting the views all of a sudden.
	Oh, you went on the Shadowban stuff, right?
	Yeah, Shadowban, yeah.
	Yeah, it's funny.
	I went from like 450,000 views to like 17,000, 19,000, 14,000.
	It was pretty wild.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so you tried that, and then how long did you do the video stuff for?
	I did that when her and I were dating.
	What was that, 2008, 2019?
	I don't remember her name.
	Something like that.
	I don't know, maybe six months.
	So you did spicy stuff heading into an election year.
	Excellent.
	Did you think about doing it on more free speech friendly platforms?
	I did try Bitchute, but it didn't catch fire.
	Right.
	I mean, yeah, a bit shoot is tough to get views.
	Okay, that's fine.
	Okay, so then you divorced your wife, right?
	Yeah, 2017, that's when we divorced.
	Yeah.
	And do you know why she didn't want to have children?
	Do you know much about her childhood?
	I know her dad was an alcoholic, and they're...
	Her parents did not get along.
	They didn't sleep in the same room.
	Her mom went on vacations by herself.
	I hardly even saw them speak to each other.
	Other than that, I don't know much about her childhood now.
	And who initiated the divorce?
	She did.
	Okay.
	And how long did that take?
	The divorce, not very long.
	Okay, got it.
	Alright, so if we can turn to Jane's childhood, please.
	Oh, okay.
	So, I have a pretty dysfunctional childhood.
	My mom and dad were, like, friends with benefits when they found out they were pregnant with my older sister.
	They were...
	They were kids.
	They were, like, 20 and 21, something like that.
	Okay, so they're not kids.
	Yeah.
	No, come on.
	I mean, everyone says, all I was young, and it's like, What do you mean?
	You're a legal adult.
	You can vote.
	You can, right?
	I mean, join the military.
	I mean, you're an adult, right?
	We managed to stave off having kids.
	Yeah.
	Anyway, so, yeah, they, you know, had a whoopsie, decided to get married.
	Their relationship was not great.
	My dad, both my parents grew up in very, like, hostile, physically abusive situations.
	Um, households growing up, you know, as kids and neither one of them, uh, you know, I don't, they've not really done much to try to, you know, overcome all that.
	But anyways, so they had my sister, they were on the brink of divorce.
	This is all from what I've been told from my dad.
	And, um, And then my mom decided to kind of...
	This is really wonderful.
	She decided to...
	Because my dad kept saying, I'm not having another kid with you.
	I don't want to have a second kid with you.
	If we're just going to get divorced, I don't want to bring a kid into this.
	And because they were fighting all the time, I guess, before I came along.
	Well, my mom decided to shape up her behavior because she really wanted my older sister to have a sibling.
	And so...
	Basically tricked my dad into having me.
	And then no sooner than I was born, she went back to her old ways, doing whatever.
	From what my father has told me in the past, he said that she didn't even take care of me.
	He would come home from working and I would be in a dirty diaper crying in the crib.
	And basically at a year, my mom...
	Decided that the best way to get out of their relationship was to cheat on my dad because apparently he had always said that if she ever cheated on him, he would be done with her.
	And so, long story short, at one year old, they got divorced.
	My mom has had numerous, numerous boyfriends over the years.
	Her longest relationship was my dad.
	I... She got married shortly after my dad to a guy out of prison who had done drugs.
	What do you mean a guy at prison?
	Like a convict, a felon?
	The guy that she cheated on my dad with to get the divorce, she started hooking up with his brother who was freshly out of prison.
	So she hooked up with the prison felon, and then she marries her brother.
	Yeah, yes.
	And his, no, his brother was the prison, the felon or whatever.
	Sorry, let me through that again.
	I must have missed something.
	I know.
	Okay, so my mom cheated on my dad.
	No, I got that part.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And then after she was done with that guy, she started hooking up with that guy's brother, who was freshly out of prison.
	Got it.
	Okay, got it.
	And then decided to marry that guy.
	Okay.
	And take us along with her.
	Well, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	What did your father do?
	Well, he tried to fight for custody, but the courts ruled in favor of my mom because, you know, I'm sure she was, you know, in there crying her eyes out saying how she wanted her girls.
	They needed to be with her.
	And so my dad ended up getting every other weekend with us.
	Right.
	And I assume you've never seen any of these court papers, right?
	Oh, no, no.
	Okay, got it.
	And over the years, there was a few times where because of my mom and how irresponsible she was, my dad would threaten that...
	You know, to take her to court and take us away from her, but he never did, which, you know, that's a point of contention because I think...
	Yeah, I mean, he literally would come home from work and you'd be in a dirty diaper crying in the crib and your mom wouldn't have taken care of you.
	So the idea that...
	And then she marries a convict.
	I don't know.
	I mean, look, I know that the court system is biased and I get all of that, but I mean, it seems to me he'd have something of a case.
	Yeah, and I think maybe you You know, he didn't really have a bunch of money, like, to be fighting in the courts, and my dad is, both of my parents, you know, but my dad, he's very childish.
	Sorry, where does she get the money to do all this, though?
	Her parents?
	I don't know, honestly.
	I don't know if maybe my grandparents, my grandparents have always bailed her out, even still to this day.
	When she has something, so probably them.
	I just, you know, I mean, unless I see the actual court documents, it's real easy to just say whatever you want about the past.
	Right, I know.
	Okay, all right.
	So you end up 80-90% with your mom and felon guy, right?
	Yeah, for a brief period.
	And then that didn't work out.
	We ended up getting...
	Both myself and my sister were sexually abused in that household.
	By her husband?
	By him and then, sorry.
	No, no, don't apologize.
	I'm so sorry to hear about all of this.
	I wasn't intending to talk about all of this today.
	My husband, Bob, sorry.
	Sorry, I've given up.
	I'm sorry.
	I have the memory of a fish.
	But by my stepfather and by his son, because he had a son from a previous marriage.
	I'm so sorry, and I don't mean to probe and don't talk about anything that's unbearable, but sexual abuse covers a wide variety of terms, and if you could just give me a general idea of what happened.
	Well, basically the stepbrother made me, or he touched my...
	Private areas.
	One time playing an innocent game of tag, he pinned me down, did that.
	But I screamed and he got off of me and my mom came out at that point.
	And then towards the end of the relationship, my stepfather, he didn't...
	I guess whatever.
	He basically...
	I was at home by myself.
	My mom had left for a minute.
	And he was going to take a shower.
	And I come over there.
	He's like...
	And I'm like...
	Goodness, Lord.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	Anyways, he calls...
	No, don't worry about it.
	We'll edit after it.
	So, go ahead.
	He calls me over there.
	And I walk over innocent.
	Because I'm like a kindergartner at this point.
	And I just see him standing in the doorway butt naked.
	And that was the extent of that.
	And I ran away.
	So, he didn't really...
	Do anything to me.
	And then afterwards, he came over to me after he had gotten dressed.
	He was like, it's okay if you saw it.
	And I was like, I didn't see anything.
	And he's like, it's okay.
	Well, years later, I find out from my sister that she had similar experiences, but hers were worse.
	She used to go in the basement and the stepbrother would make her pull down her pants and mess with her.
	You know, down below.
	And then my stepfather at one time had actually trapped, like pinned her in a room.
	And he was standing over her and made her touch his penis.
	So she had it worse than I did.
	But...
	So that's what happened while we were there for that short period.
	I don't even know how long my mom was married to him.
	Because...
	You know, she got out of that around when I was a kindergartner.
	I guess so from one to what, five maybe?
	Right.
	Two to five, maybe three years or so.
	And then after that whole situation, we...
	I'm sorry, was that the instance of sexual abuse that you were referring to?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Now, listen, I don't want to minimize your experience because it's creepy and terrible, but sexual abuse is a strong phrase for a one-time groping and seeing a penis.
	Okay.
	No, I'm not trying to, but I mean, the stuff that I've heard over the course of doing the show has been sort of jaw-dropping, so I was kind of bracing myself for hell on earth.
	And again, it's terrible and creepy and wrong.
	I get all of that.
	But it's a strong phrase to use for that, in my opinion.
	And the reason is that if you define yourself as someone who was sexually abused, that's a language and an imprinting on your head, like on your soul almost, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	And was it creepy and wrong?
	Absolutely.
	Absolutely.
	Terrible.
	And certainly, you know, your sister would be closer.
	But I guess I just have some sort of concern about the self-definition.
	Okay.
	Okay, so I'll just bookmark that in my mind, and I say this with massive sympathy, with a full acknowledgement that it was creepy and wrong, absolutely, and you were in a situation of grave danger, which was even more acted upon with your sister, so I'm not trying to say anything to, but...
	No, and I understand what you're saying.
	I do understand what you're saying, because, yeah, I mean, it could have been a lot worse, and I know that there's people out there that have gone through You know, despicable things that I couldn't even imagine, you know?
	Right, right.
	I do understand what you're saying.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, what happened then with your mother?
	So, she divorced this guy?
	Yeah, left him.
	We moved.
	My grandparents bought us a house for a little bit.
	Then, shortly after we moved in there, she met this alcoholic, toothless guy and decided she was in love.
	Uprooted us from where we were.
	Moved us to the middle of nowhere.
	Even though we begged her not to do that.
	And she was like, well, I'm going with or without you.
	So you can either come with me or go with.
	Oh, so your dad could have got custody.
	Yeah, I guess so.
	But we were scared to live with my dad because of his temper.
	Okay.
	But your dad could have got custody at that point.
	Probably.
	Yeah.
	Well, because she was giving up the kids to go live with this guy, right?
	And fundamentally, it's not after the kids, right?
	I mean, I suppose it matters if they say, I mean, if you say, I desperately don't want to live with my father, I'm sure they would take that into consideration, but...
	Okay, so you were more scared of your dad than your mother's new guy, given that the last guy was, like, gropey, lecherous, creepy, whatever, right?
	Yeah, I guess.
	I mean, I was like...
	So what was your dad doing?
	Because this is the first time I've heard of your dad's temper, unless you mentioned it and I missed it.
	So what was your dad doing that was so scary?
	And I'm not disagreeing with you that he was scary, right?
	But what was happening?
	You know, like I said, we would go up there every other weekend.
	And he...
	When we would go over there, like...
	If we would just do little, you know, little things, like it wouldn't really matter.
	Like, for instance, he would want us to, like, clean.
	Help clean.
	He wanted to instill in us to learn clean.
	Sorry, at what age?
	Gosh, I... Just roughly?
	Maybe five for me.
	Really?
	You know, eight, nine for my sister, something like that.
	Okay, got it.
	And he was a lot harder on my sister than me, but we would go over there.
	And if we didn't do things to his liking, he would get progressively more and more mad to the point where he would get so mad that he would just start literally screaming in our faces.
	And he would get right in your face and be screaming at the top of his lungs to where he's like spitting in your face.
	He would never hit us.
	But, I mean, he would come about.
	It's almost worse, isn't it?
	I mean, that's totally psycho.
	Yeah.
	And like he would come, you know, it was like that he would go as close to not hitting us as he possibly could, you know.
	And he would go on and on and on for like an hour.
	And if we would try to peep up to like defend ourselves or be like, you know, we're sorry, he would yell at us for even doing that and tell us to be quiet and shut up because otherwise it was going to go for even longer.
	And he would be like, you know, we're basically threatening us that if we even tried to speak up, he would continue to yell at us for a long time.
	And then he would eventually, after he exhausted himself, he would storm off into his bedroom and we would just be left to kind of sit there like scared to even really move or do anything.
	Fear of making him mad again.
	And then once he would cool down, he would eventually come back out.
	And that was it.
	We didn't really talk about it.
	It was just like, okay, it's time to move on.
	Oh, so he wasn't like, I'm sorry I got so crazy.
	Or he was just like, it never happened.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And so my mom wasn't like that.
	Even though she was very irresponsible, she...
	She was the type that she tried to almost be more of our friend than our parent.
	And so when you're a kid and you have one parent who's so strict and screams at you over a very small mistake or another parent who, yeah, they're making horrible, terrible decisions, but they don't scream and yell at you and use fear on you all the time.
	In our minds as children, that was more appealing.
	And, I mean, hindsight, I don't know, you know, it's like I don't, there's a part of me that wishes I would have been with my dad because of the things that my mom had exposed us to.
	Well, but there's no good answers, right?
	I mean, there's no good answers.
	And there never is in this kind of trash planet of dysfunction, right?
	There's no good people around here at all.
	Okay.
	It's like, yeah, everyone lives in these different layers.
	Like we walk in the same, you know, that same planet, different worlds.
	Everybody walks around each other, moves around each other, but you might as well be on Jupiter or Mars.
	It's a totally different planet for the screwed up people because they just, they have this weird shield that nobody decent comes around them.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, sorry, if we can just, I know we've got to get to your adult family issues and matters.
	So, what happened in your teen years?
	Well, my teen years, I just kind of did whatever my mom at the time I was dating a married man.
	She would work all the day during the work week and I would be in school and then on the weekends she would go and be with him.
	And so I kind of just had free reign to just hang out with my friends.
	I didn't really go see my dad much anymore.
	One other thing to add with him is he would get so mad at us over dumb things as kids that he would also not talk to us for like a year or more at a time.
	Until we would beg him.
	Sorry, you mean over stuff you did as kids?
	A year?
	Yeah.
	Jesus.
	Because he's the type, like, you'll do little things.
	Petty stuff.
	And he won't say anything to you at the time, but he lets all these little things build up until eventually he gets himself so mad and blows up on you and then just doesn't talk to you for a year or two at a time.
	But as kids, you mean?
	Yes.
	And when did this sort of vile habit start?
	I have a memory.
	I think I might have been like seven or so when something like that happened because he had come to a birthday party of mine and gave me some flowers.
	And of course, you know, I ran.
	I was like, thanks, you know, and I ran off to go play with all my little girlfriends that were over there because I was so excited to set him on the table.
	Being a kid, I didn't put them in water and make them live for the rest of their lives.
	So when he came up to get me that next weekend, they were dead.
	And he got really mad about that.
	He didn't say anything right away.
	But then I think later in the weekend, he went off on me.
	And I think that was one of the first times he's out.
	And then, so then he might not talk to you.
	But how does he not talk to you for a year or two if you're spending time with him as a kid?
	I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I'm just trying to understand the mechanics.
	He just wouldn't even...
	When he wouldn't talk to us like that when we were young, we just wouldn't go over to his house.
	We wouldn't go to see him.
	We would just be...
	Oh, so you'd go a year or two without seeing him?
	Yeah.
	We would be bounced back and forth between our grandparents.
	All right.
	So let's do our teens?
	So yeah, teens.
	I just kind of did whatever I wanted.
	And then...
	My mom, after she stopped dating the...
	Toothless guy.
	Well, no, beyond the toothless guy, because that's a whole other thing in and of itself.
	In my teenage years, she started dating a married man.
	Oh, yes.
	Sorry, yes.
	And then she started dating this other guy that she worked with.
	And at first, everything seemed fine.
	How pretty was she?
	I mean, she's...
	She was pretty attractive when she was younger.
	Yeah.
	I'd say eighth.
	Okay.
	So, she started dating this one guy that she worked with, and it was the most kind of normal, at least from what she had dated for a long time.
	And so, I was kind of accepting of him, even though he did drink a lot.
	What she had dated.
	Not who, but a what.
	A thing.
	Yeah.
	Long story short, things were okay for a while.
	She seemed really happy, and he was nice enough to me.
	We kind of got along when he was living with us.
	And then one day, I think I had left for the weekend to maybe be with a friend or my dad.
	I don't remember at the time.
	But anyways, him and my mom ended up having a falling out.
	He found some old diary of hers, and Got belligerently drunk and smashed a mirror, flung blood up from one side of the house to the other.
	Sorry, flung blood up?
	What does that mean?
	He cut his wrist in a mirror and literally decided to fling his blood all across the house.
	Wow, that's almost like summoning Satan or stuff.
	And this was the normal one, right?
	Yeah.
	Just checking if we're on the same language base.
	Yeah.
	And so then my mom calls me and she's like, okay, don't freak out, but this is what happened.
	And of course I got so mad because I thought, seriously, how could he do something like this?
	Because I had trusted him.
	He had gained my trust.
	And I think he also cheated on my mom too during that whole little debacle.
	And so Anyways, I come back home and my mom's like, I said, you cannot, like, I do not want him in here.
	I do not feel comfortable anymore with him here.
	Like, I know it's your house, but like, I'm your daughter.
	Like, I don't want him around.
	Like, and she's like...
	Sorry, whose house?
	Huh?
	Sorry, I know it's your house.
	I just missed that.
	My mom's.
	So she would throw it in our face that it was her house.
	And she would say all the time growing up, like, when am I going to get to live my life?
	Okay.
	So...
	Yeah, I came back.
	We went out to eat.
	And at this point, it had been like a week since that incident.
	And all throughout the week, she was telling me like, oh, yeah, no, I'm not getting back together with him.
	I'm done.
	But then she would be on the phone with him all day.
	And I just knew that she was going to get back together with him.
	And so that next weekend, we went out to breakfast.
	And before all this had happened, she had been talking to me about her and him We're getting a house.
	And she was like, I really want to get a house for you.
	I want you to be able to live in a house because we lived in a mobile home.
	And anyways, so we come home from eating and I'm like, oh, yeah, by the way, when are we going to do that?
	When are we going to do that?
	And she looked me in the face cold, cold, cold and was like, And literally laughed.
	And was like, well, me and such and such are going to get a house once you move out.
	And laughed in my face.
	And that was like the straw that broke the camel's back for me.
	I was like, you know what?
	I'm done.
	I can't do this anymore.
	And so I ended up packing up my things and leaving and moving out at like 18 years old and moving in with my aunt for a little while.
	Or no, first with my dad.
	And then, of course, that didn't work out because he got mad about cleaning.
	And then I moved in with my aunt for a few years.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	And then you're dating in your early teens and early 20s?
	Yeah, I did date.
	And of course, those relationships weren't great, I think.
	When I moved in with my aunt, I started dating somebody that I had met.
	They came into the job and I don't even know what to say about that.
	Usual disaster of relationships from a bad history and no training, right?
	Yeah, he ended up cheating on me and then I ended up having a couple of short-term, you know, I don't know, People that I talked to for a little bit, that didn't work out.
	Before I met my husband, I was in a relationship with somebody else for about two, two and a half years, and that ended in a disaster because he ended up basically telling me everything I wanted to hear before, and then we got Once we got more serious, he started showing his true colors.
	I know I'm being kind of vague.
	No, that's fine.
	And what age were you at this point in your life?
	23, 24?
	Yeah, 22, 23.
	Okay.
	And your looks, I mean, I'll say they're bad now, obviously, I don't know, but did you inherit your mother's looks as far as that went?
	Yes.
	He says, yeah.
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	And so...
	I think my mom's better looking than me, but...
	Okay.
	Or was at my age, but...
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So then you meet this guy, right?
	Yes.
	And...
	Sorry, that sounds more sinister than I meet it to be.
	So...
	The issues in particular started after the birth of your first child.
	Is that right?
	That's right.
	Okay.
	Postpartum depression.
	Is that right?
	Yes, and anxiety.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety.
	Okay.
	And was this a surprise to you?
	Um...
	What, when it happened?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Were you saying, gee, you know, I have a kid.
	I had a really bad childhood, so I'm going to need to watch out for this, maybe get some therapy before I have the kid, and so on, right?
	I mean, were you surprised at the level of unhappiness that you had?
	I think I was a little bit.
	Maybe that's naive.
	What do you mean a little bit?
	I'm sorry, I think I was surprised.
	I didn't expect it to go like it did.
	Okay, so you were surprised.
	Have you done, sorry, how old were you when you had your child?
	28.
	28, okay.
	And had you done any therapy before you had your child?
	Well, we, like, Like my husband had said, we had bonded over listening to a lot of your calling shows.
	We had done a lot of talking together, but I have not had any kind of formal therapy.
	I think I went one time when I was a teenager, and it was...
	Too overwhelming for me at the time.
	And I didn't go, I never went again.
	Because it was like the moment I sat down, I started crying.
	Okay.
	So, and what's the, because, you know, I'm a big proponent of therapy, which, you know, it's just my opinion, right?
	I mean, I'm not saying I have sort of absolute proof or anything like that.
	So you listen to me enough to, I guess, take some of what I said to heart, but not enough to do therapy.
	And I know that sounds accusatory.
	I just try to understand your thinking.
	Yeah, I guess so.
	I thought that by talking about it with my husband and recognizing, I guess what happened was we put too much focus on what our parents did to us that we didn't stop and look at ourselves.
	And I'm sure that means a whole lot to you, and I'm sure it will mean a whole lot to me, but it doesn't yet.
	So what do you mean by that?
	Meaning that I just, I guess I didn't think that I needed to get into therapy.
	I thought that by excommunicating with all of my family that that would make things better.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And how long before the birth of your first child did you excommunicate your family?
	Two years.
	Yeah, a year and a half, two years.
	A year and a half, two years, yeah.
	And then how long or where relative to the birth of your first child did your husband renew his relationship with his family?
	Well, he did it right after I found out I was pregnant with my first child.
	Okay.
	And let's get back to that question as to why that occurred.
	Did something change on the part of your family?
	Did they apologize, make restitution?
	How did that go?
	No, they didn't.
	Okay, so what was it that had you go back to your family?
	My grandparents, my grandfather especially.
	He was not doing well.
	I don't know how I learned that information.
	I think my mom texted me, and I obviously didn't text her back, but yeah, it was because of him and the fact that we were pregnant.
	Sorry, I still don't understand.
	Why would your grandfather being ill mean that you would go back to your family?
	Right, yeah, I understand that.
	They were in a home, like assisted living.
	And pretty much to get to them, I would have to...
	I'd have to see my parents.
	Still not answering the question.
	I understand, but why would you want to get back in touch with your grandfather?
	Was this your grandfather on your mother's or your father's side?
	My mother's side.
	Okay, so this is the guy who raised your mother, who's pretty horrendous, right?
	Right.
	So, why would you want to get back in touch with the guy who was primarily responsible for, at least, obviously completely responsible, for your mother's experience as a child that may have led her down this dark path?
	Because, other than my dad, he's the only one that I had a really strong bond with.
	Because I was pretty much raised by my mom's parents.
	After she divorced my dad, she would dump me off with them so she could date and she could work.
	Okay.
	And so they raised this woman who was a very irresponsible mother, right?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So they're not great people either.
	I mean, sorry, I mean, I don't mean to be overly blunt, but if you raise a sort of selfish, narcissistic, or however you want to phrase it, kind of mom, Then you're not particularly good parents, right?
	Did they call her out on her behavior?
	Did they try to convince her to go to therapy?
	Did they commiserate with you about what a difficult time you were having?
	I mean, what happened with them and you?
	What do you mean what happened with them and me?
	Well, what I just said, I mean, in terms of did they do anything to try to convince your mother to go to therapy?
	Did they talk about how difficult your mother was?
	Did they commiserate with you or give you sympathy for what a tough time you were having with your mother?
	And so on.
	No, none of that, no.
	They would defend her, wouldn't they?
	They would defend her, yeah.
	Okay, so you're going to try and tell me that you had some real great bond with the people who defended your mother to you, thus completely screwing up your moral compass.
	Yes, that's what I'm going to try to tell you.
	Okay.
	How much time of our precious time together, how much time do you want to spend trying to convince me of that?
	Uh...
	Not much.
	Okay.
	So your grandfather gets ill and you say, I'm going back into the family orbit.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	And your wife had what opinion of that?
	I think we already touched on this, but just remind me.
	A negative opinion.
	Okay.
	So your wife did not want you going back into your family orbit, right?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	Can you tell me a little bit about your wedding vows?
	Was it, we become one flesh, love, honor, and obey, or something like that, putting no others before you, that kind of stuff?
	Yes.
	So why would you break your vow to your pregnant wife?
	How do you understand this?
	Selfishness.
	Well, that doesn't really answer anything.
	That's just a negative label, right?
	Why were you bad?
	I was bad.
	Well, that's kind of a tautology.
	I mean, there must have been some reasoning behind it, right?
	Financial reasons, too, you thought.
	You were worried because of COVID. Well, yeah, that too.
	It was selfish.
	I just, I wanted to...
	No, no, but that doesn't answer anything, right?
	Because you could say, well, I selfishly did not want to go back to my family because my wife was pregnant and it upset her.
	So they wanted me, but selfishly...
	So selfish doesn't explain anything, right?
	Right.
	So what was your reasoning behind going back?
	I wanted my grandpa to meet his grandson, or his great-grandson.
	Why?
	Because it would make him very happy.
	So it would make him happy, and his happiness was more important than your wife's happiness.
	So that's my question, is why is your grandfather, who defended your abusive mother, or sorry, I should say probably more neglectful mother, but your grandfather who screwed up your moral compass and raised this fairly not-so-great mother, why was his happiness more important than your wife's security?
	That's the reasoning I'm trying to sort of sort out.
	It wasn't, but I did it anyway.
	Okay, and I understand that, and my question is, what was the thinking behind it?
	I mean, we don't act randomly, right?
	Or, you know, I mean, why wouldn't you have a call in with me about it and, you know, could at least discuss it?
	I really can't.
	I really don't know.
	Well, you do, right?
	And I just expressed to you my frustration that I've always said I'm about prevention, not cure, right?
	You've heard me say that a bunch of times, right?
	Did you call me before disaster struck?
	No.
	Why not?
	I mean, it's free, right?
	We did.
	I wrote in to you a while ago, and I did hear back, but then that was it.
	This was, I think...
	This is during COVID, I think.
	Yeah, I think it was before we started talking to your parents again.
	No, it was before he had started talking to his parents.
	I did try to write in because I did want to talk to you and kind of get your take on some things as far as our families and whatnot.
	It was four years ago before the birth of our first So, first child.
	And I did go back.
	And that's totally fair, and of course, did we contact each other and then just were unable to come up with a time, or was it something like that, or you just never heard back at all?
	I think, I don't know if it was you or an assistant, but I got a message, and we were going to set up a time, and then that was, like, we tried to set up a time, and then nothing ever happened from there.
	Like, we were unable to come up with a time, or things just kind of faded out?
	I never got a response back from you after that.
	Okay.
	And obviously, I'm sorry about that, whether it was me or an assistant, but that's persistence too, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if I was holding a million-dollar lottery ticket for you, you wouldn't be like, well, you know, I tried once or twice and never quite gelled, right?
	You'd make that happen, right?
	Yeah.
	Which, again, I'm not trying to...
	Obviously, I had or my assistant had culpability in that, so I apologize for that for sure.
	But there is that thing about persistence in life, right?
	Yeah.
	That's something I don't really have.
	Okay, but that certainly does mitigate the frustration on my part, so I appreciate that information, and I do apologize for not getting that call going some years ago.
	I appreciate that.
	That does help me, so sorry and thank you.
	Okay, so your wife doesn't want you to get back in touch with your family, and how did those discussions go?
	Between me and my family?
	No, between us.
	You guys?
	There was no discussion.
	I did tell him I didn't want to do that.
	I didn't feel comfortable.
	He was like, I'm going to call initially when his mom had emailed him about his grandparents' state.
	He was like, I'm just going to call and see about My grandparents kind of touched bases, and I was like, okay, do not tell them that I'm pregnant.
	I just found out.
	I'm not ready for that.
	I don't even agree with you talking to them again.
	And he's like, okay, okay.
	And then he gets on the phone and was like, she's pregnant.
	Right away, almost.
	Sorry, this is back to your husband.
	And I'm not saying anyone's falsifying things.
	I just want to make sure that you agree with that assessment.
	I don't agree with that assessment.
	Okay, that's important.
	Okay, so what do you disagree with?
	I don't remember her stressing the fact that don't tell her you're correct.
	I remember...
	I was literally like, do not...
	We didn't have a discussion before.
	It was when we were on the phone and you were trying to mime it to me.
	Sorry, when you...
	Okay, so hang on.
	Let me just...
	I'm sorry to interrupt you right after asking the question, but perhaps I can just get a little bit of a timeline here.
	Okay, so you get the email about your grandfather, right?
	And then you want to call your grandfather or grandmother?
	My mom.
	Oh, okay.
	So you want to call your mom to find out what's going on with your grandfather.
	And what was the timeframe between getting the email and calling your mom?
	Oh, boy.
	I mean, was it a week, a day, a month, an hour?
	I don't remember.
	Your wife would probably remember.
	Yeah.
	I feel like it was probably that same day because she had been sending him emails periodically, even though he wasn't talking to her.
	She never did...
	No.
	No.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you find out about your grandfather, and is it the same day that you called your mother?
	I think it might have been.
	I'll go with her, yeah.
	Okay, but it wasn't long, right?
	No, it wasn't long.
	And you had a discussion.
	Obviously, you didn't get the email and then just immediately speed dial your mom, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so you had a discussion with your wife about getting back in contact with your family.
	Right.
	And how did that, that's what I'm trying to sort of understand, is how did that go?
	Can you text me?
	I don't...
	The conversation between me and my mom?
	No, us, honey.
	Oh.
	How did it go when you...
	Don't dissociate on me, brother.
	Oh, no.
	Stay with us.
	Stay with us.
	I know we're talking about your mom and the nether is beckoning, but try and stay with us.
	Whenever you told me you wanted to talk to your mom, how did that go?
	Not well.
	Not well.
	So what happened in the course of that conversation?
	We got into an argument.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, you got what?
	We got into an argument over it because I kept telling him I didn't want to do that.
	I didn't feel comfortable with that.
	I didn't feel safe around her after what she had pulled when At his old place, you know?
	Coming in and tearing up the place and taking his phone and threatening the cops, right?
	Yeah.
	So she threatened to, you know, call the cops, which is introducing state violence into the relationship, trying to get you arrested.
	I mean, she made us about as, I mean, aggressive or violent threats as could be made, right?
	Yeah.
	And she was also, at the time, just to sprinkle this in, when she did that, she was also trying to get him to hit her.
	She was telling him to hit her.
	Oh, wow.
	So she was really trying to get your ass thrown in jail.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And then, you know, so he gets this email and he's like, he wants to do it because, you know, for his grandpa.
	And I was like, no, I do not want to do this, you know, because I wasn't talking to any of my family.
	And it had any time I would even broach that subject.
	It was like, no, absolutely not.
	Because, you know, my family is seemingly a lot worse than...
	His situation.
	And he's like, I don't...
	No, but the stuff with the mom as an adult is about as bad as it can be.
	Yeah.
	Because even mine, even my family, when I decided to not talk to them, they all gave me that respect and never once bothered me.
	Right.
	And let me have my space.
	His mom, the whole time we were gone, never did that.
	I mean, at one point she showed up at his job before this whole email about the grandpa.
	Right.
	And he's in his 30s.
	And it's like, you're doing this over your adult 30-year-old son.
	He says he doesn't want to talk to you and you can't respect that.
	Like, he's not a child.
	But anyways, the conversation did not go well.
	I was not upset.
	Just remind me, how much time was it between her threatening to call the cops and have you arrested and your grandfather getting sick?
	Year and a half.
	Year and a half, okay.
	And over that time that you...
	I'm sorry...
	How long since you decided to take a break from your mother and your grandfather getting ill, what was the time frame there?
	Oh, sorry, it was a year and a half because it was after you said to your mom...
	A year and a half.
	Okay, got it, a year and a half.
	Okay.
	So...
	I'm trying to understand your motivation for calling your mom without first getting some kind of resolution with your wife.
	Now, the resolution may be call, maybe don't call, but it seems, and I could be wrong about this, of course, but it seems kind of rushed, if that makes sense.
	No, it was.
	Okay, so what was the rush?
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	Okay, so listen, brother.
	If we're going to have a conversation, you've got to stop pulling this I don't know crap.
	No, I'm serious.
	Because, I mean, who knows?
	Not me, not your wife, only you.
	And if you simply have no memory, like you had a brain injury or something, if you simply have no memory of one of the biggest decisions you made in your life or anything to do with thoughts or feelings behind it, there's no conversation.
	Right.
	So, do you know and you're not telling me, or you genuinely are an entire blank and have no idea you're, like, numb to whatever you were thinking or feeling when you made the biggest decision of your adult life?
	I mean, I don't want you to make something up if you genuinely have no memory.
	and we're going to be, Thank you.
	Of anything you were thinking or feeling when you made the biggest decision of your adult life that set you on the road to having a bad marriage, if you genuinely have no...
	I don't want to make anything up.
	I just need to know that.
	Yeah.
	I think I was excited to tell them the news of our pregnancy.
	Okay.
	And why were you excited to tell them the news of your pregnancy?
	And I appreciate that.
	Yeah.
	I just felt like I wanted to share it with them.
	I don't know what...
	Okay, that's just...
	You keep telling me the same thing but changing the words.
	Why were you excited to?
	Well, I wanted to.
	Well, that's another way of saying I was excited to.
	Sorry, I think your wife was about to say something.
	Yeah, I was going to say he's always held his grandparents on kind of a pedestal because getting to know them and even myself, they do come across as very sweet people.
	They were more of a motherfucker I think that's why it was rushed, because he was worried that he was going to pass away before he could get the chance to tell them that we were pregnant and married, because he knew how much that would mean to them.
	And I think it was just out of fear that he wouldn't get that chance.
	Well, no, hang on, hang on.
	I'm sure I've misunderstood something, so I apologize for everything that I get wrong.
	Feeling my way forward in the dark is, as usual, not because of anything you're doing.
	It's just a lot of information and process.
	Yeah.
	But this is to your husband.
	I thought you said that you wanted him to have a chance to meet his great-grandchildren.
	But if you're afraid he's just about to die and you have to tell him right away, then those two things don't fit together, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	It doesn't make sense.
	I think it was just a reaction, like an emotional reaction.
	Sorry, what was an emotional reaction?
	Him wanting to talk to them.
	No, no, I get that.
	So I'm trying to figure out the why.
	Why was it so urgent that you couldn't square things away with your wife and come to a decision that you could both live with?
	Because this rush...
	Now, did you think your grandfather was dying and you wanted to give him comfort as he was dying by telling your mother that your wife was pregnant?
	Yes.
	Sorry, you said...
	Yes, yes.
	I don't know.
	Is that a question or an answer?
	Do you think maybe there was a part of you that maybe felt guilty about not talking to your grandparents, and so that was almost your way of trying to make up for it?
	Like, hey, I'm back, and guess what?
	I'm getting ready to have a baby?
	Probably.
	I mean, I didn't say goodbye to them.
	Well, okay, hang on, hang on.
	Sorry, let me just interrupt here for a second.
	So you said you want to take a break from your mom, right?
	Right.
	Now, did you have any contact directly with your treasured grandparents over the course of your adult life?
	Not after I stopped talking to my mother.
	No, no, but before that, did you talk to them directly?
	Yeah.
	But she was always there a lot of the times.
	Yes.
	You had a one-on-one or one-on-two relationship with your grandparents over the course of your childhood and adult life that was somewhat independent of your relationship with your mother, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So you did not say to your grandparents, I don't want to talk to you, right?
	Right.
	You said to your mother, I need to take a break from you, right?
	Right.
	Now, how often were you in communication with your grandparents prior to saying this to your mother?
	Not at all.
	Well, why not?
	I'm sorry if I'm confused here, but the special bond and the closeness and the...
	Like, what's happening?
	Before I stopped talking to my mom?
	Or after I stopped talking?
	No, before.
	Oh, before?
	Oh, yeah, I talked to them all the time.
	Well, not all the time.
	Well, I preferred their company over my mother's.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So how often a month were you in contact with your grandparents directly and not just getting secondhand stuff from your mom, but talking to them directly?
	A couple of times a month.
	A couple of times a month.
	Okay.
	I appreciate that.
	All right.
	And it would be like half hour, hour phone calls or what would happen?
	Would you meet for dinner or lunch or brunch or?
	Probably 15 minute phone calls.
	I would go out to their house sometimes.
	Hmm.
	What?
	No, go ahead.
	Why do you keep shaking your head?
	Because there's more to that, but go ahead.
	I don't want to have to circle back, so if there's more to that, let's do it now.
	Well, I will say he really didn't spend a lot of one-on-one time with his grandparents into his adulthood.
	Maybe he did a little bit with his ex, but his mother is the type that anytime he would, and even when we were together, we would mention, hey, we're going to go You know, just even in conversation, like we want to go visit with grandma and grandpa, she would show up.
	I assume she has to control the narrative and all that kind of stuff, right?
	Yeah, and that was one thing that I never understood.
	Why is she always having to be there?
	Why can't we just see your grandparents without her?
	Okay, but there were still phone calls and so on, which your mom was not dialing into, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so how often would you see them in any given year, like face-to-face?
	Oh, a dozen to two dozen times.
	I mean, probably once or twice a month, you'd see them in person and you'd speak a couple of times a month.
	Yeah, politics and all that, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, are you saying that after you told your mother you didn't want to see her, your grandparents never contacted you again?
	Did you try contacting them?
	I think so, did I? No, he didn't.
	I was going for a clean break from everybody.
	And it was mostly because it wasn't necessarily that he wanted to stop talking to his grandparents, but his mom has such control over them in their old age, and especially as their health was declining, that we didn't think we could have a relationship with them without her because of the way she is, like how she'll just show up.
	Sorry, I apologize for being this confused again, but I'm confused again.
	All right.
	So, you did not communicate to your grandparents directly that you didn't want to talk to them?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So, why wouldn't they contact you?
	Didn't you change your number eventually?
	Yeah, we changed my number.
	No, no, no.
	Eventually.
	I'm talking about...
	You're talking a couple of times a month.
	Well, no.
	He changed his number pretty quickly because his mom, when she showed up, And was trying to take his cell phone and everything.
	I had come to find out that she was still paying his cell phone bill and car insurance.
	And I said, what are you doing?
	How can you sit here and not even answer her phone calls when she's paying the bill?
	Sorry, you're in your 30s and mommy's paying your cell phone bill?
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, why wouldn't your grandparents contact you?
	I mean, you have more than one number.
	You have emails.
	They know where you work.
	Again, if you were sitting on a million-dollar lottery ticket, would they say, oh, he's changed his number.
	There's absolutely no way to get in touch with him.
	I guess we'll just forego the million dollars.
	They're kind of that way.
	They were in their 80s, and they don't know how to work computers very well.
	Okay.
	Did they know where you work?
	Did they at that time?
	Not really, no.
	We were living in separate cities.
	Okay.
	Oh, so they couldn't just drive to your house?
	No, no.
	Because they didn't drive?
	They didn't know where we lived.
	We moved shortly after I stopped talking to my mom and no one knew where we lived.
	Okay.
	So, again, if you had a million dollar lottery ticket, your grandparents would have just given up.
	There was nobody that they could ask in the family to look you up online.
	There was nobody that they could ask who might have your email.
	There was simply no way for them to get in touch with you.
	Is that what you're trying to...
	My mom.
	They only have two kids.
	I'm the only grandson.
	So yes, they could have through your mom.
	Yeah, they could have through my mom.
	They could have through my mom.
	After your mom?
	I'm not sure what that means.
	They could have through my mom.
	Oh no, but your mom is probably not happy with them.
	So there's no nephews, no nieces, no anyone else, no mutual friends, no extended family.
	There's no way that they could get in touch with you.
	No, our family is very, very small on that side.
	He's the only grandchild.
	And there's no nieces and nephews because...
	My uncle hates me, so...
	Well, and his uncle doesn't have any kids of his own, so no.
	And actually...
	Sorry, how long after you said...
	Because your mom, I guess, showed up at your apartment, you said...
	So how long after you said to your mom, I want to take a break, was it before you changed your number?
	It was pretty quick, wasn't it?
	It was pretty...
	It was immediate, almost immediate.
	Well, no, because, oh, so right after you said to your mom, before she came to your house, or your apartment, right after you said to your mom, I don't want to see you for a while, you changed your number right away?
	After she came to my apartment, yes.
	Okay, so how long was it between you saying to your mom, I don't want to see you, and her coming to your apartment?
	Same day.
	Same day.
	Okay, I apologize if you'd said that already, so I just wanted to understand that.
	Okay, so you then knew for sure, or given how certain you are now, that taking a break from your mother meant changing your phone number, especially after she showed up and asked you to hit her.
	So you knew that changing your number would cut you off from your grandparents, right?
	Right.
	So why wouldn't you text your grandparents with your new number?
	They didn't have the ability to text.
	Okay.
	So you're not working with me at all here, right?
	I mean, it's just a bit of a waste of time.
	So did you talk on the phone with your grandparents?
	No.
	I thought you said you did.
	No.
	You said 15-minute conversations.
	Was that not on the phone?
	After many conversations and going through all this with my mom, I started to rethink my relationship with my grandparents and the people who they were.
	I get all of that, and we'll get to that.
	I'm just trying to understand the mechanics of it.
	So you talked on the phone with your grandparents, as far as I understood it, a couple of times a month, sometimes 15-minute conversations because you're in different cities, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so you have your grandparents' phone number, right?
	Thank you.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you, I assume, decided not to call your grandparents after your mom showed up and you changed your number, right?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So you, knowing that they can't contact you, decided to also cut off your grandparents?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So for a year and a half, you have no contact with your grandparents?
	Yes.
	Right.
	That's right, isn't it?
	Yes.
	Okay, I just needed to understand that.
	So you separated practically from your parents and your grandparents, and to your knowledge, your grandparents didn't move heaven and earth trying to find you?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So then, if you had, and you went through a period of reassessing your grandparents and your relationship, right?
	Yes.
	Because you saw when your mom came over, stormed over, threatened to call the police, get you arrested, wanted you to hit her and all that kind of stuff, trying to get your ass thrown in jail and get you get a felony or assault or something, right?
	So then you're like, gee, maybe these weren't the best parents to my mom in the world, right?
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	So then you had separated from your family.
	And so when your grandfather got ill, you were inviting them back into your life by telling your mother that your wife was pregnant, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So it wasn't because you cared that much about your grandparents because you had blocked them effectively for a year and a half, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So that's not the answer, right?
	Right.
	So, why did you override the need to negotiate with your wife in order to tell your mother what was the motivation behind telling your mother that your wife was pregnant?
	And you guys, it was new, right?
	You hadn't even passed that, you know, 20-30% miscarriage window, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And did nobody know this at this point?
	No.
	A few people, but not many.
	Okay, so now we have to go back to your husband's motivation as to why you would tell your mother that your wife is pregnant without even consulting with her first, right?
	And that's what happened, isn't it?
	Because you said that she was trying to signal to you on the phone, don't tell her, right?
	Okay, so did you understand that she was signaling, don't tell your mother I'm pregnant?
	Okay, so you knew that your wife very desperately did not want you to tell your mother that she was pregnant, right?
	So why did you tell her?
	I mean, there was no need to tell her in that moment, right?
	You could have said, you know, you could have made the decision to call her back later in that day after you spent a couple of hours talking about things with your wife, right?
	Right.
	So what's the thought behind that?
	And again, I know this sounds accusatory.
	I don't mean it that way.
	I'm just genuinely curious what your thinking was.
	I mean, I think I have an idea, but I don't know for sure.
	I just felt like I had to tell them.
	I know that, but why?
	I can't tell you why.
	I don't know why.
	What was the feeling?
	What was the compulsion?
	Did you feel out of control?
	Did you feel like you were possessed?
	A little bit.
	So, what was the effect of telling your mother that your wife was pregnant?
	What effect did it have on your mother?
	She was happy, but more...
	I don't know, apprehensive is the word, maybe?
	She started crying.
	Yeah.
	My mom doesn't get emotional too much about...
	Is your mom the one who cries and says she's the worst mother in the world?
	Oh, you're genuinely emotional.
	Well, no, manipulators don't have genuine emotions.
	Okay, I get that.
	Certain things that have, like, I've, okay, I've, my whole life I've been trying to impress my mom, do things for her to be proud of, you know, of her, of me.
	And she never had that, from what I perceive, that genuine emotion that a mom should have.
	Okay, so hang on, so you've been listening to me for how long?
	Mm-hmm.
	Going on almost 10 years.
	Okay, so almost 10 years.
	After listening to me for 10 years off and on, do you really think that your motivation was that, well, I just want to make my mom proud of me?
	Yes.
	No.
	No, that's just not it.
	No, come on, man.
	That's not it.
	The woman tried to get you arrested.
	So the idea that you're just this sweet kid trying to impress his mom and make her proud of him, I mean, that's just not, that's not even remotely credible.
	And, I mean, I don't mean to rope your wife into this, and she's obviously completely free to disagree with me, but does that seem like a believable motive to you?
	No, because he doesn't really care.
	I mean, I don't really think he cares much about his mom or for his mom.
	He's pretty checked out.
	So, no.
	No, I get that.
	So, Okay, do you want to really know why you told your mom your wife was pregnant?
	Yes.
	Because fuck you, mom.
	Yeah.
	This is what you missed out on.
	This is what it cost you.
	You're going to lose your dad and not see your grandkids.
	I can't think of it.
	I mean, I don't know that I'm right, but I can't think of anything else that fits, which, again, doesn't mean that I'm right, but...
	Yeah.
	I don't know.
	I... I mean, I can...
	Because I can remember, like, sitting there watching him do it, and, I mean, he...
	I don't know if it was necessarily to stick it to her, I think, and maybe I'm wrong, I don't know, but...
	I think he was just genuinely proud of himself and he wanted to share it with her.
	Nope.
	Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
	Okay.
	No, no.
	That simply cannot be it.
	You can't invite someone like that back into your life out of pride.
	Yeah.
	Wow.
	I mean, it was an act of sabotage against both of the females in his life.
	Which is, I mean, were you telling your mother that your wife was pregnant to invite her back into your life and have her spend lots of wonderful quality time with you, your wife, and your kids?
	Yeah, because he started to convince himself that she wasn't that bad.
	No, no, in that moment.
	Were you inviting her in like, this is going to thaw things and you're welcome back into my life and my family and all this kind of stuff?
	I think he did.
	I want him to answer.
	Stop answering for him.
	I'm sorry.
	I think so, yeah.
	Yes.
	Okay?
	But that's not possible.
	Because you kind of betrayed your wife, right?
	No, I did.
	No, I did.
	Okay.
	So, doing something...
	That would benefit your mother at the expense of your marriage.
	Okay, what did your mother think of your wife before you got married, when you were dating and engaged and so on?
	My mom, I don't know.
	Quit saying that.
	She...
	She liked her, I guess, from...
	Alright, I can't do that fog with you, so let's turn to your wife.
	What was your experience of your potential mother-in-law's experience of you when you were dating and engaged?
	She would be nice enough, but I would say it was more so apathetic.
	I never felt that she really was like, oh my goodness, jumping for joy for me to be his girlfriend.
	But she was never really outwardly rude to me either.
	Hey, sorry about that.
	Not sure exactly what happened there, but I had to switch computers.
	But I think we are good.
	Okay, so sorry about that.
	So I was just saying that you then did what your mother wanted at the expense of your wife, right?
	Yes, yes.
	And we're still trying to sort of figure out what your motivation might have been for that, right?
	Now, it's my understanding, and of course it's your mind, your heart, your assessment, so I'll obviously follow your lead on this, but the idea that you were telling your mother this because you wanted to dangle what she was missing, I hate to sort of get all Freudian, but this idea that some guy breaks up with a woman and she gets, have you ever heard this phrase, her revenge body, right?
	Yeah.
	Which is, you know, she gets all kinds of fit and she exercises like crazy and eats well and so on.
	And then she, you know, this is what you're missing, right?
	If that makes sense.
	So my understanding is that it's not the case that you felt that you were saying, my wife's pregnant and you're going to miss out on a life with your grandkids.
	Your feeling is closer to come back into my life and be close to your grandkids.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So in that case, what's the rush?
	That's what I'm still trying to sort of figure out.
	Yeah.
	There was no rush.
	I don't know why.
	No, there was a rush because you told her right away.
	Right.
	And your wife sort of, I don't know, popping a balloon on her belly and drawing her hand across her neck saying, don't tell her, don't tell her, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so then we have to understand what is the rush.
	Because if you're going to invite your mom back into your life, There's no rush for that, right?
	I mean, you just spent a year and a half not talking, right?
	Right.
	So what's the rush?
	And again, I know this sounds accusatory.
	I don't mean it that way.
	I'm genuinely curious.
	What is the rush?
	May I say something?
	Of course not.
	Do you think that maybe you were, and obviously I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but do you think that maybe once you found out that I was pregnant, you felt a sense of Maybe a sense of panic at the new responsibility to come, because you had always had your parents there to basically...
	No, no, no, no, no, no.
	Because his mom was not helpful.
	Well, financially.
	Financially.
	No, no, but that's too costly, right?
	Because, you know, having his mother back...
	He's not a crazy guy, right?
	He's a smart guy.
	So, having his mother back in his life...
	It's going to cost a lot more than it's going to provide.
	Well, when we were arguing about him even contacting her, that was one of the things that he had said.
	Because during the time, you know, that was when COVID was going on.
	We were a little bit tight for money at the time, at the place that we were living.
	And he, at the time, did tell me that, you know, he thought that it would be beneficial for us.
	And I didn't think so.
	I'm like, I don't care.
	Like, you know, I don't care.
	Sorry, beneficial for you to be back in touch with the mother?
	His parents, yes.
	Sorry, both of them?
	Yeah, for financial reasons.
	Okay, and what was the hope there?
	That she would continue paying your insurance and his cell phone bill?
	No.
	No, not that specifically, but just be there if we needed the help.
	Sorry, you're just so fake here.
	What do you mean, needed the help?
	Were they going to send you money?
	Were they going to give you checks?
	I mean, what do you mean?
	I mean, as like...
	What's the word?
	Like a fallback.
	Like, you know, if things get really...
	We were going to continue to pay our bills.
	It's not like all of a sudden we're going to hand them our bills and say, hey, can you pay these?
	But if we got to the point where we were in dire straits, he could fall back on them.
	So you mean go move in with them or have them pay your...
	I mean, they'd have to give you money or resources for that to happen, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Was there an inheritance from the grandfather that might have been in play?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	That was also a factor.
	That was also a factor.
	Okay.
	And what's the health status of your grandfather at the moment?
	He passed shortly after.
	He passed right like a month before I even gave birth, so he never even got to meet him.
	Okay.
	And what happened with your mother after you informed her that your wife was pregnant?
	I mean, did she return to your life?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And so you made the play, I suppose, for the inheritance, and did that pay off?
	No, no.
	No.
	So you didn't get anything from your grandfather's inheritance?
	Where's...
	His grandma's still...
	My grandma's still living.
	Oh, yes.
	Okay.
	He might have left something to you.
	No.
	It's wrapped up in there.
	It's all wrapped up in the...
	It's all together, right?
	It's on the farm, yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	So, and this was how many years ago?
	Three.
	Three years ago, okay.
	And how have things been going with your mother?
	Like they always had, pretty much.
	Well, not the day that she came to the apartment, right?
	No, no, not to that extent.
	She behaved herself for the most part because...
	Because I don't allow it anymore.
	I think she knows that we would.
	She basically fell right back into what she was doing.
	Especially once our son was born, I found that here I'm having this really tough time and I'm being forced into a situation where now my husband was working.
	And I was being forced into a situation where having to rely on her pretty much like almost against my own like wishes to something.
	Oh, no, no, no, no.
	Come on.
	Come on.
	Forced into, against my wishes.
	Okay.
	Don't even try, young lady.
	Don't even try erasing your free will with the free will philosophy guy.
	Okay, okay.
	All choices.
	Yeah, you're right.
	You're right.
	And I guess be, you know...
	In my own desperation because of where I was at, I... No, now you're just saying you have no free will because of desperation.
	Okay.
	These are all choices.
	All choices.
	I'm not saying you shouldn't be sympathized with.
	I think you should be.
	But I can't take your free will.
	Right.
	So, are you saying that your mother-in-law is heavily involved in the raising of your children?
	I'm not sure what you mean when you say, like daily or something like that.
	In the beginning, when I first had him, she was coming over here more frequently.
	What does more frequently mean?
	Maybe once a week or so.
	There was a couple times where she stayed the night to help me overnight with him.
	Mm-hmm.
	Because he wouldn't sleep for me.
	He was a very difficult baby.
	Very colicky.
	Very difficult.
	And just wouldn't...
	Yeah.
	And then it turned into kind of like what it was when we were dating, but only with a baby to where all of a sudden we were going over there almost every weekend.
	And we have our own house to take care of.
	And I wasn't doing well.
	I wanted to be home.
	And I finally was like, what are we doing?
	I don't want to go over there this much.
	And sorry, how...
	The time frames are confusing.
	Okay, so how long had you been going over to the point where you end up staying a weekend or part of the weekend?
	How long had that been occurring for before you had questions?
	Well...
	When we first started talking to them again, that didn't happen.
	I mean, I found out...
	Just roughly.
	Just what you said, I began to shook my head on like, what are we doing?
	And how long after the birth of your son was that?
	Gosh, I don't...
	Six months to a year?
	I don't know if it was even that long.
	Really?
	Because I remember complaining about it and not wanting to go.
	Yeah.
	But...
	Okay, so you complained about it and didn't want to go...
	Sorry, let's go back a little bit.
	Okay, so you say to your mother, your wife is pregnant, your mother comes back into your life, is that right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, and so this is to your wife.
	What did you say about that?
	What did I say?
	Yeah.
	Um...
	I wasn't happy about it.
	I didn't agree with it.
	I mean, I kind of sympathized at the time with...
	Oh, I didn't kind of...
	I sympathized with his grandparents too because at the time, I wasn't happy.
	I felt bad that we weren't talking to them just because of his mom.
	And so we did it under the guise that we were going to have a sit-down discussion with them and have honest conversation, hash things out why he stopped talking to them, and basically try to repair the relationship to where that kind of stuff wouldn't happen and basically try to repair the relationship to where that kind And why would you do that, given that you hadn't talked to them for a year and a half?
	Again, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't do that, but I mean, what changed?
	Other than the illness stuff, which, you know, was going to happen sooner or later.
	I guess I, you know, I don't know, because now I don't want to say, because I know you're like, oh, you have free will.
	I guess I kind of felt backed into a corner, to be honest, and I'm not trying to discredit myself.
	Tell me what you think.
	I mean, I can disagree with it, but I still want to hear.
	I felt backed into a corner because now here I was, newly married and pregnant, and I wasn't talking to any of my family for my own reasons.
	All I had really was my husband.
	And then he tells me, I'm going to talk to my parents.
	I think that this is the right thing to do.
	This is what I'm going to do.
	That's what he told me.
	And so now I felt like I'm just kind of along for the ride.
	And maybe that's where I went wrong.
	I should have said, well, fine, you're going to do that.
	But they're not going to have anything to do with me and the kid.
	I don't know.
	I was trying to find a middle ground of what I could do.
	Of what would be acceptable.
	Like I was hoping that maybe if we did, since he was insistent on talking to them again and bringing them into our lives, I wanted to try to have some sort of control over the situation and try to have an honest conversation with them so they wouldn't fall back into the same patterns.
	So you didn't want them back in your life, but you went along with it?
	Yeah, I guess so.
	No, and I'm not trying to diminish the complexity of what you're saying.
	I'm just trying to boil it down into something that I can start working with, okay?
	Yeah.
	Okay, and what was your concern about saying to your husband, I don't agree?
	And you certainly can't make this decision because now there's three of us, right?
	There's myself, the child, and you can't make a decision about our marriage without including me.
	So we need to reopen this for discussion and let's talk about the pluses and minuses, the risks and benefits and so on, right?
	Yeah.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I was going to say, and we did do that.
	Yeah.
	I would say, I'm scared of her.
	I'm literally scared of her.
	I do not feel comfortable.
	I don't want her around me.
	I don't want her around our son.
	I do not feel safe around her.
	He had another opinion.
	He thought that it would be fine and that we would...
	And that was what he wanted to do because of his grandparents.
	And so, yeah, I went along with it.
	Well, the grandparents and the mother is not quite the same equation, right?
	I know that they're overlapping circles, but they're not identical circles, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, this is to your husband.
	Is that what you recall of the conversation that your wife said, she's frightened of your mother and she doesn't want your mother around your kids?
	And you said, basically, too bad, this is what's happening?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	So, is there any mystery as to why your marriage isn't doing well?
	Well, not now.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I mean, because for a woman to feel secure, she has to feel that she's number one in her husband's priorities.
	And there's not even a close second.
	That everything that he does is for the health and welfare of his wife and his children.
	And that he is fully dedicated to her happiness and well-being.
	And sorry, I mean, I don't mean to speak for you as a woman, but that's sort of my understanding of what a wife, and especially a mother, needs to feel.
	Yeah, that's exactly it.
	And a wife also needs to feel that there's no competing loyalties between her and anything else.
	That she's not just part of the equation.
	She's not somewhere on the list.
	She's the whole list.
	Right?
	So a woman who's a wife and a mother cannot possibly compete against the history of a mother-in-law and her son.
	Right?
	Because you have 30 plus years with your mother.
	You only have a couple of years relative with your wife.
	Right?
	Right.
	So if there is a conflict in influence between a mother and a wife, the mother will always win because the mother automatically has more influence because the mother raised the son and the mother has had decades of significant authority over the son, right?
	That's been an ongoing thing ever since we started talking to her again.
	Oh, that she has opinions that go against what you want and your husband sides with his mother?
	Not that he necessarily sides with her, but he just kind of allows it and keeps tolerating it.
	Sorry, tolerating what?
	Like when she starts to become overbearing or doing things.
	I mean, he does stand up to her at times.
	I don't want to say he hasn't done anything because he will...
	confront her, but then that's the extent of it.
	He might confront her, and then she doesn't really apologize, and then we just go back to pretending like nothing ever happened.
	That's their dynamic.
	Okay.
	And that's what we've been dealing with, or that's what I've been, you know.
	And is your mother-in-law still fairly embedded in your life and your children's lives?
	Yes, I've tried to limit it to once a month, and that is even a challenge because she tries to find excuses to get together more frequently.
	And I found that my husband, as of late, I don't even know how, it's been several months now, he has been defending his mom because she hasn't been as crazy as she Once was, but it's because of the boundaries that I've put in place of just the once a month.
	Because the moment that you give her an inch, she takes a mile.
	And he's like, it's fine.
	She's not.
	Everything's been fine.
	We've been getting along.
	She's not been that bad.
	And in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, well, if we get back into what we're doing, it'll just happen all over again.
	Okay.
	So, this is to your husband, and I'm obviously completely open to this argument.
	can you explain to me the net positives of having your mother involved in your marriage and your parenting?
	No, there must be some positives.
	Otherwise, again, we don't happen randomly, right?
	We don't behave randomly.
	They may not be objective positives, they may not be positives that other people would agree with, but there has to be some positives, otherwise there's no causality behind your decisions, right?
	Like if I said, I'm going to move to Paraguay, people would say, why?
	And if I said, there's absolutely no reasons, then my behavior would be incomprehensible, right?
	So, with regards to having your mother back in your life, what are the benefits that you perceive?
	Because that's what's happening, right?
	Your wife doesn't in particular want her.
	Your mother has not apologized, gone to therapy, made restitution, or anything like that.
	Has your mother ever apologized for threatening to call the cops and invading your apartment?
	No.
	So, she hasn't changed, and she hasn't apologized for a very dangerous and potentially life-destroying behavior, right?
	So, help me understand what your reasoning is behind wanting her in your life against philosophy, morality in many ways, and certainly against your wife's wishes, which are paramount, right?
	I mean, your wife did not have anyone who stood up for her as a child, right?
	Right.
	In fact, when your wife was a child, people in general would betray her for the sake of appeasing abusers.
	And I'm sorry if I got that wrong.
	I don't mean to speak for your entire childhood, but that was sort of my memory of it.
	Yeah, no, that's right.
	Okay.
	So you are recreating your wife's childhood in your decisions, right?
	In that you are appeasing somebody who's dangerous, who frightens your wife, and that's What happened to her as a child, right?
	Right.
	So, bro, are you even with us?
	I don't know what you're doing.
	Are you here?
	Yeah, I'm here.
	I don't know what you're doing.
	If this is boring to you, honestly, I can just talk to your wife.
	You guys called me in a panic, right?
	So, you call me in a panic, and then you give me monosyllabic bullshit non-answers.
	So, I don't want to waste anyone's time if you're not engaged in the conversation.
	I'm engaged.
	No, you're not.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	That's how he communicates.
	Okay, then that's fine.
	In which case, then, you don't particularly care to solve these problems.
	You're not engaged in the conversation.
	You're not giving me, you're just giving me, I don't know, I can't remember, yeah, huh, yeah, right?
	And that's fine.
	I mean, I just, you know, I shuffled around my afternoon because it sounds like you guys were in a big crisis and it doesn't seem like you're engaged in the conversation at all, so I'm not really sure what to do.
	I mean, other than, you know, good luck.
	I'm engaged in the conversation.
	I just can't give you an answer.
	I don't know why I have her in our life.
	I don't know why.
	Okay.
	I really don't.
	I'm not trying to disengage.
	I really don't.
	I felt like she's just I don't know.
	There's some kind of control.
	Not control over me, but...
	Do you think it's...
	No, no, let him work through it.
	I've always had this need to...
	I don't know, please her or...
	have her in my life, even though I know that it's not good for me.
	Okay, but frankly, bro, what does it have to do with you?
	I want you to look at the woman you claim to love.
	Look at the woman who's born two children for you.
	It's not about you.
	Who is it about?
	About her and about the kids.
	That's right.
	So why are you only talking about yourself?
	My mother's kind of selfish.
	Yeah.
	Really?
	Do tell, right?
	Right.
	What is best for the mother of your children, the love of your life, and your children?
	To not be around insane people like my mother.
	Okay.
	You listen to a philosophy show for 10 years.
	Right.
	And you call me when disaster has struck.
	Okay?
	And then you're passive.
	Right.
	See, in general, passive aggression provokes the feelings of anger and frustration in other people that the person is unwilling to feel himself, right?
	So you go, like, saying it's an emergency and then going all rubber bones and refusing to participate in the conversation, I frankly, I don't believe a single word that comes out of your mouth when you say you don't know.
	I don't believe you.
	I don't.
	Because you've listened to my show for 10 years, which means you know all about self-knowledge, you've heard a million of these call-in shows, you know that I don't know is always answered eventually whether I actually do, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So...
	I don't believe you.
	I'm not saying you're lying, obviously.
	I'm just telling you my genuine and honest experience.
	Doesn't mean I'm right, right?
	But what do you mean you don't know?
	Of course you know.
	Why do you choose your mother over your wife?
	Why do you choose to appease your mother at the expense of your children?
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Come on, man, this isn't complicated.
	Who in your history appeased your mother at the expense of you?
	My stepdad.
	And?
	My grandparents.
	Yeah, and your father to some degree as well, right?
	Chose his own pleasure over what was best for his wife and kids because he was a drug addict, right?
	Right.
	So you have a pattern of people in your life, and in particular the males, right?
	You said your stepdad is kind of weak and appeases and is barely there, right?
	So you have a model of men who appease the good, sorry, who betray the good to appease the bad, right?
	Right.
	And that's what you're doing, and that's what your son's going to do too, if you don't change.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, you're right.
	So what happens?
	And now, I mean, it's a mess, right?
	Because now you've invited her back in.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So now it's become way easier to just let things continue than to try and set boundaries again, right?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And you did this because you didn't listen to your wife's good advice, right?
	Correct.
	Look, I'm not saying she's perfect, obviously, but I think in this one she may have been a little bit more on the righteous side, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, what is the right thing to do?
	Confront my mom.
	Based on what?
	You've done it since you were a teenager, and when you tried to set up a boundary, she invaded your space and tried to get you locked in a government rape room.
	Right.
	So what else?
	I mean, I'm not sure what you need to know here.
	What's the confrontation for?
	Yeah, it's a waste of time.
	Well, I don't know.
	I mean, I'm certainly happy to hear what information you would need to get.
	Right.
	She doesn't need to be in our life Steph?
	Yes.
	I'm sorry, I wasn't sure if you were telling me or asking me.
	No, I was telling you.
	Okay, so then continue.
	I don't know how to answer that.
	So go on.
	Why doesn't, okay, why doesn't she need to be in your life?
	Because she's a threat to my family and my children, and she's dangerous, and she is not a positive influence.
	From my children.
	Yeah.
	One person was kind of conspicuously absent in that list.
	Sorry to point it out.
	And my wife.
	Oh, look at that!
	You've got a little footnote there, young lady.
	Oh, thank you.
	Thank you.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Your wife doesn't like her.
	Right.
	That's all you need to know.
	Yeah.
	I'm not kidding about this.
	Okay.
	Your wife doesn't like her.
	And your wife...
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	Is your wife more reasonable than your mother?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So why would you sacrifice the interest of the more reasonable person who is your future for the unreasonable person who was your unchosen past?
	Yeah.
	Out of fear.
	I'm afraid of her.
	Listen, and I don't doubt that, and I... I'm not disagreeing with you about that.
	She does sound pretty terrifying to me.
	So I'm with you on all of that, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And was your wife, years ago, three years ago, was your wife right?
	Yeah, totally.
	Okay.
	Has she been right for three years?
	Yes.
	So now is the time in your husband's repertoire where you grovel.
	Were I groveled?
	No, no, no.
	Not you.
	Oh, okay.
	I'm sorry.
	Not you.
	I said your husband's repertoire.
	Okay.
	I know you may feel like you have to wear the pants, but I'm talking to bro here.
	Sorry.
	Your wife was totally right.
	Is that correct?
	Yes.
	You imposing your will on your wife's correctness has caused a foundational crack in your marriage and caused her years of suffering and Yeah.
	Yes.
	The mother who scared the living crap out of her and every other sane human being by invading your house and trying to get you locked up.
	Right.
	Gee, I wonder where this postpartum depression could possibly have come from.
	Yeah, there's a lot more to it. there's a lot more to it.
	I don't want to, I feel bad if he'd like to throw him under the bus, but there's a lot more to it.
	Like his mom, that's a big issue, but it's also kind of the tip of the iceberg because there's been, of course, several things since having kids that have really just...
	just since getting pregnant, that my husband's behavior that came to light that he didn't really show me until I got pregnant.
	Would you like to be more vague or no?
	Well, for instance, when...
	I was pregnant and we weren't talking to anybody.
	I kept making a big issue saying, hey, I don't have anybody to help me postpartum.
	I need you to make sure you take off.
	Let your bosses know.
	I'm going to need you at least two weeks because I'm going to need some help.
	Literally, at the final hour, he just tells me, being very cold, I'm not taking off.
	I can't take off.
	And wouldn't, at the time, wouldn't give me any reasoning to why.
	And then later on down the road tells me that it was because he was worried about maybe losing his job at the time.
	And then he just said, well, here's my mom's available.
	She doesn't work.
	You just use her.
	And I didn't want to.
	But I needed help because I couldn't even feed myself at the time.
	Sorry, I just wanted to make sure I understand this.
	So you asked your husband, how much time did he take off after the birth of your child?
	One day.
	He was going to go back to work the same day that we got back from the hospital.
	And I was in the bed bawling my eyes out saying, please do not go back.
	And so he called off one more day.
	Okay.
	And this is to your husband.
	Do you agree with that?
	I mean, is that how you remember it to you?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And do you think it was reasonable to think that you were going to lose your job if you took a week or two off after the birth of your child?
	I feel it was reasonable.
	I do.
	I had just got into that job.
	I was ill-trained because of COVID. Sorry, you just got into that job, and when you got into that job, did you hide the fact that your wife was pregnant?
	No.
	They all knew.
	So they knew that your wife had just given birth, and you were concerned that they would fire you if you took a couple of weeks off after the birth of your child?
	I just...
	No, I'm just...
	This is yes or no question.
	You were concerned about that, right?
	Yes, I was concerned about missing work, yes.
	Well, no, it's not just missing work.
	Your wife just had a baby.
	I wasn't concerned that they were going to fire me because I took off work for the baby.
	I was concerned that I would get more behind on my work.
	No, no, the whole point of taking time off from work is that the work doesn't accumulate because you're taking time off.
	Otherwise, it's not time off, right?
	It did there.
	There was a culture where they kind of expected that.
	I mean, there's people who took off and they would still be on emails in Florida.
	Okay, but you'd still be home, right?
	Right, I'd still be home.
	Did you not have any savings?
	We did.
	Okay, and how long could your savings have sustained your life?
	Long enough.
	No, just roughly.
	Weeks?
	Months?
	A couple months, maybe a little bit more.
	So you had a baby, but only a couple of months of living expenses saved up?
	No, we have more than a couple of months.
	Okay, so what's your assessment?
	This is to your wife.
	I mean, let me think.
	What is our...
	Probably six months.
	Yeah.
	Probably six months or so.
	Six months.
	Okay.
	And is it very hard for you to find work for some reason?
	No.
	No.
	So why would you go back to work the next day when your wife is alone and your mother is around?
	Knowing that your wife does not like your mother...
	And your mother probably has antipathy towards your wife, because your mother would very much understand that you couldn't make the decision to take a break from your family without your wife's tacit or explicit approval.
	Because I wasn't thinking about her.
	No, no, but I still have to understand your reasoning, right?
	Yeah, right.
	I felt pressure at the job.
	Oh, so the job, your boss is more, oh, so the irrational people always win, and the reasonable people can get fucked, right?
	So whoever puts more pressure on you, whoever's meaner to you, or you think might be meaner to you, they get everything, and all the reasonable people get nothing.
	They're not even on the list.
	Do I have that right?
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, isn't that what the evidence says?
	Again, I don't want to be unfair or unjust, but you're like, well, the people at my work are so irrational that they would punish me for taking a couple of weeks off after the birth of my child, so I have to appease them, and my mother's so irrational, she tries to get me thrown in jail, so I have to appease her, and then all the good people are just left twisting in the wind, right?
	Right.
	Okay, this is how you want to live your life?
	No.
	Okay, then why are you doing it?
	This is blindingly obvious, isn't it?
	I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.
	Am I? Yes.
	Oh, I am telling you things you don't know?
	You didn't know that you appease irrational people?
	No.
	Okay.
	So then the question is, why you, young lady, as a wife, why did you choose a guy and not demand loyalty?
	Why did you choose a guy who does this And have two children with him.
	And I'm not saying, look, whether you guys should stay together or not, I obviously hope to hell that you do because you've got two kids.
	Right.
	But you chose this guy and you knew this about him.
	Again, am I telling you something that's a real shock?
	No.
	Okay.
	So what are you choosing him for?
	I... I don't know right now why...
	I mean, I, I, cause I've been asking myself that same question.
	Like, why did I do this?
	Okay.
	So why did you do this?
	Because I think in the beginning when we met, um, you know, he was unlike anybody that I had ever met before.
	He's very smart.
	He's very talented.
	He's endearing.
	And, you know, and I thought like at the time with all the, like he had introduced me to you and the philosophy.
	And like I said, we would have all these conversations.
	I thought that he was somebody different.
	I thought that he had his stuff more together than he did.
	I thought that he was more of a leader than what I have found since becoming pregnant than he is.
	And as far as having another baby, yeah, that's on me.
	Because even when we were talking about having him, I wasn't ready because I still was trying to fight through the postpartum depression even after a year.
	But I felt this sense of, like, internally, like, as a, you know, I wanted personally more kids, and I know that that's selfish.
	That's selfish.
	Well, okay, so let's, I mean, listen, I sort of hate to say this is kind of cliched, which is the, I didn't make a choice, I was just optimistic, and he hid things from me.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So, come on.
	Do you think that we could have evolved as a species if women couldn't read men?
	Yeah, you're right.
	Do you feel that you are worth...
	See, here's what I think is happening.
	I mean, we've been talking for a while, so I'll just cut to the chase.
	So what I think is happening is this is to your wife.
	I think that you are betrayed so often you think that's all you're worth.
	So you really can't stand and say, I need you to support me and this is an absolute and I deserve.
	You can't choose your mother over me.
	This is crazy.
	Right?
	So I think that you've been betrayed so often and so consistently that this has just become an internal fact.
	People betray me.
	I'll never get support.
	The bad guys always win.
	The good guys always appease.
	Virtue is weak.
	Evil is triumphant.
	And I just have to run like a mouse at the feet of dinosaurs from tragedy to tragedy until they throw me in the ground, right?
	I guess, yeah.
	I mean, honestly, before I met, I wasn't even sure I would ever even get married and have kids.
	I didn't even know if that would be in the cards for me.
	You know?
	And so, yeah.
	No, that's right.
	Okay, and so it is, I mean, what I call Simon the Boxer.
	So for you, you couldn't manage whether you were betrayed or not.
	You couldn't control whether you were betrayed or not as a child, right?
	This is to your wife, right?
	You couldn't control that because it was up to everyone else.
	You can't make people be loyal to you when you're a child because you're just trying to survive the situation, right?
	Okay, so you could not will any kind of loyalty, so what you got used to was managing feelings of disloyalty.
	In other words, I can't manage whether someone hits me, but I can have self-control over my reaction to it.
	That's the only power that I have.
	But the problem is then, if the only sense of power that you have is managing betrayal, then you need people to keep betraying you so you have a sense of power and control.
	Now, I'm not saying, of course, that this is all there is to your relationship, but I think it's the dynamic that's cooking on the down low.
	Yeah.
	I agree.
	Now, for your husband, it's a little more challenging, but...
	I think there's a sort of cruel aspect to it, because you're raised by a cruel mother, and I think knowing how incredibly painful this is to your wife and doing it anyway has a certain aspect of cruelty to it, in my opinion.
	And I'm not saying all you are is cruel, and I'm not trying to say anything like that, but I think the reason why you're having trouble accessing your motives is Is because the motives are very far away from your self-image of a nice guy.
	Does that make sense at all?
	Because your mother is cruel and dangerous, right?
	And...
	This is your husband.
	What is your view of the nature of women?
	If you sort of had to sum it up, what is your view of the nature of women?
	What is the essence of femininity or womanhood for you?
	Nurturing.
	Women are nurturing.
	Okay.
	You said that as a question, which means it's probably just something you think you should say.
	Be honest, tell them what you really think about women.
	Well, women.
	Thank you.
	Thank you.
	Controlling.
	Okay.
	Manipulative.
	right um that all I got I got it.
	Okay, I got it.
	Okay, so you have to manage controlling and manipulative women, right?
	That's your childhood, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so the only sense of power you have is to manage controlling and manipulative women, right?
	So what do you turn your wife into?
	Controlling and manipulative.
	Right.
	Why does she have to be controlling and manipulative?
	Because you invited your mom back into your life against her wishes and against her mental health.
	So now, look at that.
	You have another controlling and manipulative woman on your hand who has to be that way because she's trying to manage you inviting crazy gal into your life again.
	So you need women to be controlling and manipulative, or rather your mother does, so you don't denormalize her behavior.
	Because that's your sense of control is, well, I got some crazy girls on my hands and I got to control them and figure things out and maneuver and navigate.
	And that's my sense of power and control, right?
	Right.
	Thank you.
	So then you create a situation where...
	Your wife ends up unhappy, controlling, and manipulative, which she doesn't want to be, but feels cornered that way because of the craziness of the situation.
	And again, I could be wrong about all of this, but tell me what you guys think.
	Well, that sounds right.
	That sounds pretty right on, yeah.
	Because she's in an impossible situation, right?
	Right.
	She wants to respect you, but you're kowtowing to your crazy mother.
	She wants to protect her children.
	She wants you to be around, and you're not listening.
	And you're ignoring her wishes, and you're acting against her interests, and you're leaving her alone with your mother, which she desperately doesn't want.
	So then she fights back by trying to nag, manipulate, control, get herself listened to by hook or by crook.
	Right.
	And then that's the self-fulfilling prophecy.
	Then you're kind of copy-pasting your mom onto your wife.
	Yeah.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, it does.
	So, what's the solution?
	Removing his mom from our lives and trying to...
	That's a symptom.
	Yeah.
	But that doesn't solve the problems at work, it doesn't solve the problems when his mom gets sick, it doesn't solve the problem when the grandmother gets sick, right?
	Right.
	Because, you know, we don't want to be stuck in this eternal cycle, right?
	Boundaries, violations, boundaries, violations, in, out, away, close, right?
	I really don't know what the solution is now.
	Thank you.
	I don't even.
	Well, you need to do the opposite of what was done unto you, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, what is that?
	I know, that's a pretty annoying and abstract question.
	The opposite of that, which you're not sure about.
	Tell me.
	No, I get it's annoying, but I ask it for dramatic effect.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, I was just saying, I'll just keep beating my head until I get the right answer.
	There you go.
	There you go.
	See?
	Easy.
	Easy.
	So, who's been most absent over the course of this conversation?
	Me.
	No.
	I mean, close second, but no.
	The children?
	That's right.
	Right?
	Is it best for the children if you get divorced?
	No.
	Is it best for the children to have crazy granny around?
	No.
	Is it best for the children for you guys to play out these childhood repetition compulsions and not get along with each other?
	No.
	Is it best for your children for you not to listen to your wife?
	No.
	Is it best for your children that you're not clear and direct about your needs to your husband?
	No.
	So, you know exactly what to do because you had all of these answers right away.
	You simply put your children at the center of all of your decisions.
	Because the children are absent From these equations to the large part because you guys were absent from the equations of your parents, right?
	Your needs and preferences were not taken into account and therefore you find it hard and alien to put your children front and center.
	Yeah.
	So, what is your life like if your children's long-term needs and preferences are put front and center and they are the absolute star by which you guide your life?
	Well, if they wouldn't have my mother around, I would make it a priority to protect my wife and listen to her.
	Okay.
	When was the last time you guys apologized to each other?
	And by the by, I have a pretty good marriage going on 22 years.
	I will still apologize to my wife and my daughter because, you know, sometimes I'm not perfect.
	I know it's shocking, but obviously, right?
	So when was the last time you guys had genuine heartfelt apologies with each other?
	I couldn't even tell you.
	Never.
	Right.
	Now, have your parents ever apologized to you?
	No.
	Right.
	So you are not in the habit of apologizing, right?
	Right.
	And so what happens if you don't apologize is you justify.
	And I bet you you've gone on endless jaunts of Tolkien-esque prose justifying your decisions to each other rather than just listening and apologizing if you're in the wrong.
	Yeah, it's a competition.
	Right.
	I'm more right.
	No, I'm more right.
	I have better justifications.
	No, I have better justifications.
	And you harden your position at the expense of the other person.
	Apologies take the temperature down enormously.
	Yeah.
	And if you can't apologize, all you can do is escalate.
	Now, is your concern that if you apologize, the other person is going to use it to be right forever and discount everything that happens in the future for you?
	Like, what is your concern about apologizing?
	Is it going to be used against you?
	Is it destructive?
	Is it too vulnerable?
	Like, why not apologize?
	Everyone's in the wrong from time to time, right?
	I mean, at least once in a call-in show, I apologize for getting things wrong, right?
	So, what's wrong with apologies?
	What is wrong with apologies for you guys?
	My ego?
	Well, that's, again, one of these prefabbed answers that doesn't really answer anything.
	I don't think I've...
	And you can correct me if I'm wrong.
	I don't think I have a problem with apologizing.
	Hang on.
	Didn't you guys say that you have not apologized and neither of you could remember a time?
	Well, yeah, that's true.
	That's true.
	Boy, you really demonstrated something right there, didn't you?
	Yes, we neither have apologized.
	Well, I don't think I have a problem with apologizing.
	It must be all him.
	Him, I tell you.
	Yeah.
	Well done.
	Sorry, I just missed that part.
	No, no, you don't have to apologize.
	That was glorious.
	That was like skywriting.
	I rarely get my theories proven so right in such a short time frame.
	Normally it takes 10 to 15 years.
	So you don't have to apologize.
	I thank you.
	you.
	I thank you enormously for that.
	You both have things to apologize to each other for.
	I get that.
	And there's nothing wrong with that, right?
	But you have to be gracious with the apologies, too, right?
	If somebody apologizes, you don't hoard it.
	And the reason you don't apologize within your families is it would be used as a power play to control you from now to ever and ever, amen, right?
	Yeah.
	If you say, I'm sorry, I was wrong, then in a dysfunctional family, you're never allowed to be right again, right?
	Right.
	So, you're just not used to that.
	But your children need you to apologize to each other, right?
	Yeah, thank you.
	So that you stay together, so you're happy.
	Apologies is a recognition that you have the power to hurt the other person, and we all misuse that power from time to time.
	So, that's fine.
	It's just part of the natural, you know, rough shafing of living and being a person, especially if you've had a bad childhood.
	There are, you know, these little aches and pains that cause us to trip up and so on and so on.
	So, you know, just nothing wrong.
	And this is why earlier I sort of made the joke about groveling.
	Like, if your wife was right about your mother, and you not listening to your wife caused her, what, a year-plus misery of postpartum and stuff like that, and still causes her to feel anxious and upset when you're not around, then you owe her an apology.
	Because she was right, and you were wrong, and you didn't listen, and now you've made your lives more complicated by not listening to her.
	So you owe her an apology.
	And that doesn't mean you're some bad guy who doesn't care and you'll never be right again.
	An apology is an acknowledgement that it's not going to happen again.
	Excuses are promises of repetition, as you've heard me say a million times.
	And I think, this is to your wife, that he struggles with assertiveness against his mother.
	So what do you need to do?
	Um...
	Be more assertive towards her?
	Yeah.
	No.
	No, she's not coming over.
	Nope.
	And that's what I've done.
	That's what I have.
	That's the only way.
	That's the only reason.
	Then why is she coming over?
	She's not still coming over like all the time like she was.
	That was when our son was younger.
	Okay.
	She does still come over occasionally.
	And I guess it's because...
	Oh, you're just trying to get it down to the once a month thing, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I mean, we still feel that sense of obligation because we don't want to deal with her.
	And I know that that's, you know, it's still not right for the kids.
	But, you know, like you said earlier, like we're kind of in this situation.
	It's better though, right?
	Yeah.
	It's like as opposed to dealing with her going crazy.
	Because now, like, because we had a conversation a while ago because I was really at my wits end again.
	And I had said, like, I really don't want to do this and, you know, or talk to her anymore.
	But then we started thinking, like, because they have money, I don't know if they would try to take us.
	I don't know anything about grandparents' rights.
	And, like, my worst fear is that if we did, like, cut all ties again, especially now that we have kids, that they would do something to where maybe they could have visitation alone, like, without us.
	Well, hang on.
	I don't know the answer to that, but there are answers, right?
	Yeah.
	And you would simply do, have you done a search for that?
	Have you spent 15 minutes talking to a lawyer?
	You could usually get an initial consultation for free, right?
	Okay, yeah, I did look it up, and I don't remember what I... Okay, well, talk to a lawyer, right?
	So get that squared away.
	I don't think that people without...
	I'm no lawyer, but I don't think that people without legal access to the children can get legal access to the children.
	I mean, that's like a babysitter who's been a regular babysitter who would then sue you for time with your children.
	I don't think that would be the case.
	So, again, I'm no lawyer, so go check it out.
	And if that is the case, you know, maybe the situation that you're in where it's minimal contact, but you can do whatever you want, just be conscious of it.
	And if you say, look, we don't want this volatility, then we're going to appease and all of that, but you're in the situation because...
	You should not, and this is back to your wife, right?
	And I don't mean to bag on you, but we've talked about your husband's culpability, right?
	Yeah.
	So, honestly, this is the level of assertiveness.
	I know this is going to sound crazy, right?
	But he's going to be like, I'm going to call my mom, right?
	And you're concerned that he's going to blab, right?
	So what do you do?
	Say no.
	Okay, so let's say that he continues.
	No, no, no, I'm going to call her, right?
	Well, you take his phone away.
	And you say, no, no, we're going to talk about this.
	No, no, no, I have to call her.
	I'm like, no, we have to talk about this.
	Or if he's about to tell his mother that you're pregnant, you take the phone out of his hand and you hang up.
	yeah yeah yeah okay yeah no no I'm This is the level of support he needs, because he was raised to serve his mother's vainglorious emotional needs, right?
	That's what he's raised for, that's what he's trained for, that's what he does.
	And he had a moment of weakness.
	Now, if you have somebody, and I'm not putting him in the category of drug addict, this is just a ridiculous extreme example, but if you have somebody who's a drug addict and they're like, no, I'm going to go try the drug, you don't let them.
	Right, right.
	You say, well, I can't control him.
	And it's like, but you can be really, really, really assertive.
	Not just like, oh, well, I guess he, I'm upset with you now.
	And, oh, we're going to fight with you.
	And, you know, as opposed to, well, he had a moment of weakness in the greatest vulnerability of his life.
	And I let it roll.
	Right.
	And I did not stand up for him.
	And make sure that he didn't fall prey to this weakness because I care about him and I understand his vulnerabilities.
	I understand that, right?
	And listen, him being raised by the mother that he had has given him some sensitivity and some emotional skills that are a plus and we always like the pluses but not the minuses.
	So, you also can stand up for him more Because you both need support.
	And listen, this isn't a married, screwed up childhood thing.
	Everybody does.
	Everybody does.
	I don't care how healthy and wonderful a childhood you had.
	I mean, my daughter's had a pretty good childhood.
	She needs support from time to time.
	We all need support.
	And learning to support each other in a really foundational way, rather than blame each other.
	Because what's happening is you guys are making these, you know, rather random decisions in your marriage.
	And then you're just blaming each other for the fallout rather than saying, what could I have done to prevent this?
	Yeah.
	And, you know, you grew up with blame, right?
	So blame doesn't work.
	Self-ownership works.
	And saying, well, 150% self-ownership.
	What could I have done to prevent this problem?
	What could I have done To make this better, what can I do to better support my partner so that his strengths become my strengths and my strengths become his strengths?
	Then you're unbeatable.
	Right?
	The guitarist usually doesn't sing.
	The singer usually isn't the guitarist.
	Neither of them are the drummer, right?
	They all support each other in different ways based upon their relative strengths.
	And you guys have strengths and weaknesses, and right now, Weakness is bringing down strength, and what I want to see, for the sake of your kids and each other's happiness, is for your strength to become the other person's strength.
	So, to your wife, she's more objective about your mother than you are, so she needs to be more assertive.
	There are things that you see that are strong for you and not so strong for your wife, and you need to support her on that sort of stuff.
	Men and women are, we are designed to be Supportive to each other.
	Right?
	Men move furniture, women have babies, because we're better at these things.
	And if you can learn to rely on each other's strengths without blame, oh, he's so weak, he should stand up to his mother, it's like, yes, but he was really undermined by his mother, and he is programmed to respond to that, and he'd never had anyone in his corner helping him stand up to his mother.
	And then, when he makes a mistake, and he did make a big mistake, saying, oh, my wife's pregnant and so on, so you then have a choice.
	You can say, well, he betrayed me, I'm so hurt, how dare he, this is a disaster, I'm mad at him, I'm going to attack him and so on.
	It's like, okay, then you just, you find someone's weak spot and you just jab it with a knife, right?
	Or you can say, well, the moment that...
	My husband found out that his grandfather was sick, yea, verily, possibly unto dying.
	The moment that I found that out, I should have been absolutely there for him.
	And I should have taken away his phone and unplugged the Wi-Fi.
	Because I know this is his drug.
	This is his weakness.
	This is his relapse situation.
	Does this make sense?
	Yeah, no, it does.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, it does.
	So rather than blaming each other for our weaknesses, which we already have, be the strength that your partner needs.
	Be the resolution that your partner needs.
	And if your partner makes a mistake, you can, of course, get all high and mighty and blame your partner.
	And we're all tempted to do that.
	Or you can say, what could I have done differently for there to be a different outcome?
	Do you think, I mean, because I think we're both more inclined I mean, because I think we're both more inclined to do the opposite, like do what we've been doing.
	Do you think that it would be beneficial for us to get into some sort of like long-term therapy to where we can learn better habits of, you know, I guess I'm just worried that like we'll get off the call and then Things might be better for a little bit, but we might fall into old habits again.
	Right.
	Well, do you remember earlier what I said about the names?
	Write it down.
	So, one of the ways that we don't fall back into unconscious behavior is you get your post-it notes and stick it up everywhere.
	Be my partner's strength.
	Don't blame my partner.
	Let him or her be my strength.
	Right?
	I mean, if when you wanted to call your mother and your wife had said, no, you can't.
	Like, it's too soon.
	You have a vow with me.
	It's too soon.
	We need to talk about this first.
	He's not going to die in the next five minutes.
	He's not going to die in the next hour.
	Right?
	Right.
	So, if she had been more assertive and talked to you off the ledge, and we all need talking off the ledge from time to time, so to speak, right?
	It's an analogy, but If she had been more assertive and you had said, listen, we need to go for a walk without any electronics, Leave your phone at home.
	We're going to go for a nice walk for an hour.
	We're going to talk about this.
	I know you've got kids or whatever, so we're going to drive around with the kids for an hour with them watching a video in the backseat or whatever, right?
	Something like that, right?
	So that's the kind of level of assertiveness that you need, and you just need to write that stuff down.
	What can I do to make things better?
	Genuinely apologize to each other.
	Apologies can be incredible releases of pent-up escalation.
	And just guide your life.
	What's best for my kids?
	Put the notes up on the mirror in the morning.
	So you're shaving or you're doing your makeup and so on, you're seeing that.
	Put it on the screen door.
	Put it on your phone background is what's best for my kids.
	So everywhere you look, you're getting that message reinforced.
	And I'm not kidding about this.
	Leaving notes all over the place can be fantastic and helpful.
	And as to whether you should go into couples counseling, I'm a big fan of couples counseling.
	I think it could be wonderful.
	You need to find the right therapist.
	I do have a podcast on that.
	I think it's 1927 or something like that.
	Just do therapist at fdrpodcast.com and you can find that.
	It's not for couples therapy, but I think the same kind of principles apply.
	Because a good therapist can be fantastic, a bad therapist can be a real disaster.
	But...
	I don't think that there's any reason why you guys can't work it out.
	You have a lot of the same language, but I think you've just missed out on the personal dedication to free will and supporting each other part, and the apology part, which again, you haven't had modeled for you.
	You didn't have modeled for you when you were growing up.
	Everybody just defends, justifies, and attacks, and so that's just a language you speak, and you need to learn a different one, in my opinion.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	You are very welcome.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Sure, of course.
	All right, all right.
	And if there's anything else I can do to help you guys, just let me know, all right?
	All right, great.
	Big hugs, brother and sister.
	Take care.
	Bye.

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