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Oct. 27, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:49:04
My Brother Betrayed Me! Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Alrighty.
Hello, hello.
Hello.
Hi.
Alright.
Nice to meet you guys.
Nice to meet you guys.
I've, of course, read the emails and I'm all ears.
Lay it on me.
Hi.
So...
I'm not sure how this started.
It feels like a mess in my head.
You can start with a mess.
That's no problem.
Okay.
Um...
Well, like, I think I've mentioned before, like, we put together, right, from my parents and my sister.
And over the past, like, four years, we grew really close, but now we're, like, distancing, and I'd like to not have that happen, and I'm at a loss around what to do.
So you mean distance from your brother?
Yes.
Okay.
And you're newly married, relatively newly married.
You have a new baby.
Just wanted to say congratulations on all of that.
Very exciting.
Very cool.
Thank you.
We're not married yet, though.
We're not married.
Okay.
And you and your brother live very far apart.
Is that right?
Yes, since the beginning of this year.
Before, we lived like 20 minutes away.
Okay.
So, I'll just call you, sorry, to be so Anglo, Bob and Sally, if that's all right.
I'll give you the name, Bob and Sally.
All right.
So, Sally, do you want to just give me a bit of a history of your relationship with Bob, and then we'll do the other way?
Sure.
So, as kids, we were really close.
Like, I remember fighting a lot, a lot of hitting.
We sometimes played together, but it wasn't too common.
We liked very different games.
And we completely grew apart in the teen years, I'd say, and then early adulthood.
And around my college years, he reached out to me more, especially regarding our parents' behavior.
And he introduced me to, like, your work.
And I remember the first show was around, like, something that I found a bit astonishing.
And, like, I couldn't relate.
It was, I think, a show about a man that had spent, like, a million euros on prostitutes.
And I was very confused.
Like, why would you share something like that with me?
Oh, sorry, God.
Okay.
And at first I dismissed it, but he was the only one in my family that showed interest in my love relationships.
He wanted to know a bit about who I was dating and why.
And he made it really clear that he didn't think it was a good one for me.
And during the pandemic, I decided to defoe from my parents.
And from there, we grew closer and closer until like a year after the foing, we ended up like deciding to move together.
And we've been close since then.
He like has been really present during my pregnancy, which I've appreciated a lot.
And he's He stayed with me and my baby for the first two months of her life.
Sorry, I didn't quite get the word.
You said he's been very, it sounded like pressing during your pregnancy, but I'm not sure what you mean.
Present.
Present, my apologies.
Sorry, go ahead.
Yeah, no worries.
And, like, I really appreciated that, and it felt like we were building a life together, like, close by, which is, like, what I wanted.
And then he met this girl that he started talking with, and she lived far away.
He made the decision to move there.
And that kind of clashed completely with what I had pictured.
I thought it was always a possibility, but the reality kind of...
It shocked me.
And it felt like a really fast decision.
Within a month and a half, he was away.
And not only that, but we talked less and less.
And it was really hard to adjust to that.
I always kept having the hope that we'd get closer again, we'd move together, and it could be similar to before.
And I could get to know his girlfriend and maybe potentially even have a friend.
But that's not happening.
And even more so, he decided to talk with my parents again.
And that really caught me by surprise because he didn't have a conversation with me before.
And as he was talking with them, He started talking about my family to my parents, which is something that I really didn't want.
Sorry, you mean your boyfriend and your baby?
Yeah.
Okay.
And I have a lot of anxiety, especially around my dad, because he tried to follow me home after the last time I saw him, when I said goodbye and I gave him back my home keys.
And we tried to find out where I lived.
And I don't know how to grow closer again without that always hanging over the relationship.
And how to be comfortable with him again.
But I also don't want to, like, say goodbye.
Shit.
Does that make sense?
I certainly understand that approach, that understanding.
So, Bob, if you want to go ahead.
I just feel very bad now.
I'm sorry.
Thank you.
There's a lot of guilt.
I guess I think about how just saying goodbye and I'm
hoping that I can calm down a bit and talk a bit more about my version.
you Thank you.
Yeah, you can take your time.
There's no rush.
Sorry, is there anything your sister is there anything your sister says that is really surprising to you or that you didn't know?
Not at all.
Okay.
So what's the...
I guess if we can't get past the emotion, which is totally fine, what is the emotion?
You said it's guilt.
Can you tell me what the thought is behind the guilt?
Well, we talked in the beginning when I first told her that I was talking to my parents.
And what I talked to them about, she was clear that she didn't want me to talk to them about her.
A couple of times, I broke, say, promise or my word.
I agreed that I wasn't going to talk about that.
And for two times that I remember, or maybe more, I, well, I didn't do that.
And until one time I just told her, when she insisted, again, yet again, I told her that I can't, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna promise anymore anything because, well, I just, I was, I was suffering when I saw her So I was like, I'm not going to promise you anything else.
Sorry, my apologies.
I just want to make sure I understand.
So you got back in touch with your parents and you didn't talk to your sister ahead of time about that decision.
Yeah.
Okay.
And I'm not judging.
I'm just trying to understand, right?
And then your sister said, okay, but if we're going to stay close, you have to not talk to our parents about me.
Yeah.
Okay.
And did you agree to that?
So your sister said, if you want to stay close or if you want to have a good relationship with me, you can't talk.
Or I would really prefer that you didn't talk to our parents about me.
And you didn't agree to that.
And you said, no, I'm going to talk to our parents about you.
Is that right?
It's rather I'm not going to tell you.
I don't know if I'm going to talk about you.
I'm not But it might happen.
Probably it will happen.
Okay, so then you said to your sister, I'm not going to make a promise to avoid talking about you with my parents.
In fact, it's very likely to happen.
Is that right?
Yeah, like in my head, it's like, okay, it's happened before.
No, no, no, not in your head.
I'm talking about what you communicated to your sister.
So, just to switch to your sister to you, Sally, for a sec, was that your understanding that he said, "I'll be back in touch, well, I am back in touch with our parents, and I'm going to talk about you with them"?
Well, not exactly.
Like he said, it wasn't his intention to talk about me, but if it came up, he wasn't going to avoid it.
So, in other words, if your parents asked about you, Sally, then Bob was going to tell them what was going on and talk about your life and so on, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, I'm trying to understand, Bob, where your guilt is, right?
Because...
If you said, well, I'm going to talk about you if the parents ask, then you talked about her a couple of times, and that was the deal, wasn't it?
that you could talk about Sally with your parents?
I'm a bit confused but yeah I think so Could you repeat the question?
Well, I'm trying to figure out what you feel guilty about, because if you had said to Sally, to your sister, yeah, I'm going to talk about you with my parents, if they ask, and then you talked about Sally with your parents when they asked, or whatever came up, then why is there guilt?
I'm not saying there's a bad reason for guilt, I'm just not sure what it is.
Yeah, I understand.
It's because I'm talking to my parents.
Like, that's an inherently bad thing to do.
Okay, so sorry.
I understand now, I think.
So, it's not that you talked about Sally with your parents.
It's that you're talking to your parents at all that makes you feel guilty.
Is that right?
Yeah, it's not.
I guess there's more thoughts behind the guilt.
I guess the first two times I actually agreed not to talk about her.
Right?
If I'm not mistaken.
Is that right, Sally?
Now what?
I thought you said it was okay to talk about Sally with your parents, and now you're saying that you promised not to?
I'm sorry, I'm just confused now.
Sure.
So, the first interaction with my parents, when I went back to...
Okay, if you can stay off names, we're going to refer to her as Sally, please.
Thank you.
So when I went back to Sally, after my first interaction, she asked me not to talk about her, and I agreed.
Okay, so isn't that different from what we were just talking about for a few minutes?
Yes, because I was trying to say that after breaking my word for a few times, I decided to stop.
Okay, so this is very confusing, because you said she was upset because you broke your word, and I said, did you promise to not talk to your parents about Sally?
And you said, I never made that promise, and now you're saying you did make that promise.
Oh, okay, I'm sorry.
I made a promise, and I broke it, yeah.
Okay, so then why were you telling me that, because you went on a whole thing about...
I'm not mad, I'm just genuinely curious, right?
Like, why would you say to me, well, I never said, I said, if it comes up, I'm not going to refrain from talking about it, and I'm a little confused.
So, because I... Because previously, I said that because previously I had broken...
My word.
Okay, so you're talking about after you made the promise to not talk about Sally with your parents and then you broke that repeatedly, then you said, after you said, well, I'm not going to promise to not talk because I obviously can't keep that promise or won't keep that promise.
Is that right?
Exactly.
Okay, got it.
I understand.
I understand.
So, this is to Bob.
Was it, I mean, you sent Sally, your sister, my shows to begin with, right?
Yeah.
Okay, and it was through that that she got through the concept, or she got to the concept of the voluntary family relationship, and you don't have to keep abusive people in your lives, even if they're your parents.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay, so then, obviously, I assume that, and obviously, Sally, correct me if I'm wrong, I assume that she, you know, tried talking to your parents or tried to work things out.
It didn't work.
It got worse.
And then she ended up not talking to your parents.
Is that right?
Yes.
Yep.
Okay, so you introduced her, in a sense, to the voluntary family.
She exercised that option.
Now, what was the case at that time?
Were you talking to your parents?
I guess not, right?
It was a hard relationship.
It was tough.
I was talking to them, but more like fighting them.
Okay, so you were fighting them.
So was there a time, my understanding, and I'm obviously coming in this from the outside so I can get everything wrong, but my understanding was that, Bob, you had not talked to your parents for a while and then you got back in contact with them.
Is that my misunderstanding?
Were you in contact with them continually?
Because I thought that Sally said you got back in touch with your parents without talking to her first.
So, exactly.
I think I can help clarify.
Thank you.
Okay.
So, in 2020, we both caught contact.
2020, 2021.
And then these three years, we haven't talked to them.
Okay, so sorry.
That was my understanding.
So Bob, why is this hard?
I mean, is it a language barrier?
Is English?
No disrespect.
I mean, I only speak English, so I don't have any issues with people who are not native speakers.
But am I going too fast?
Is there something I'm not explaining well?
I'm just confused.
It's a bit hard for me to I guess I'm still nervous.
Okay, that's fine.
So, Bob, how long were you out of contact with your parents?
So, I'm very bad with dates.
Just roughly.
Months, years, just roughly.
It doesn't have to be specific.
Oh, years.
Okay, couple of years.
Two, three years?
One, two years?
More than two, I would say, for sure.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay, so three years.
So three years you're out of contact with your parents, and then what was it that had you decide to be in contact with them again?
Okay, so I'm… I'm sorry, just so you don't feel nervous, I don't have any judgment about you being in contact or not being in contact with your parents.
I don't know whether it's good or bad, right or wrong.
I'm not you.
I don't even know the family history.
So just so you know, there's no part of me that's like, it's bad to be back in touch with your parents.
If you want to be back in touch with your parents and there's value in it for you, go for it, right?
I mean, that's not an issue on my part.
I mean, not talking about it with your sister first might be something we could look at, but you being in contact with your parents is not a plus or a minus for me.
I don't have any judgment about that, if that makes sense.
I appreciate that.
Okay, so sorry, why did you decide to get back in touch with them?
I don't think it comes out as a good reason, but I'll just say that I was feeling sad, lonely, and my understanding previously, I tended to think that my unhappiness was the fault of my parents.
I was angry at them.
And I stopped being angry at them.
But I was still sad and unhappy.
And I just felt that there's something off.
And why not talk to them?
Why not talk to them?
Why am I not talking to them?
And then the reason I wasn't is because I had this hate, this anger.
This...
It was very intense.
And so I think that faded away and it made me feel open and curious to reach out.
Now, I guess this is a question for both of you and your answers are probably, I mean, I'm almost certainly going to be different.
But what are the major complaints that you had or have about your parents' behavior when you were younger and up to the present?
So, if I go first, they were neglectful.
They didn't care.
Well, that's good.
It's like our negative emotions were a burden for them.
It wasn't accepted to feel.
Sorry, I apologize, because these are your judgments or interpretations, and I'm not saying they're wrong, but can you tell me the actual actions that occurred, right?
Because if you're saying, well, my parents didn't want to do this, then that's kind of like mind-reading, and because I don't know the circumstances, it's hard for me to know what is or isn't factual, right?
And all of your interpretations may be correct, but I need to start with the facts, if that's all right.
So they hit us.
Okay, can you tell me more about that?
I remember the...
Sorry, I just want clarity on when you say talk more about that...
Okay, how often did they hit you?
Did they hit you with implements?
Did they hit you across the face?
Did they leave bruises?
And was there any structure to the hitting, or was it more random?
Just because hitting could mean anything, right?
I mean, it could mean a swat across the back once when I was three, or it could mean daily beatings with a belt.
So I don't know what you mean by hitting.
So they bruised my sister once.
On her butt.
That was their preferred body part to hit.
The frequency, I guess it would be about once a month or twice a month.
It's hard to say.
But it didn't feel like an everyday thing at all.
It was more like that.
Very I was going to say very strong, but I guess that's interpretation too.
A couple slaps across the face too.
No instrument ever.
Just the hand.
A lot of shouting.
Oh, you wanted me to talk about the hitting, right?
Well, I mean, if that's a hitting, it's maybe once or twice a month, slaps sometimes across the face, no implements.
I think you bruised your sister once on the buttocks.
So I think I understand that as a whole.
Sorry, let's just pause because if we're talking about that, your sister may have different thoughts or experiences if you want to go ahead, Sally.
It lines up pretty well with what I remember regarding the hitting.
Okay, so we've got hitting and raised voices like yelling, is that right?
Yeah, that was every week.
Now, did that go all the way to screaming?
Was it like, you know, like these people who've got the red faces and the veins popping out of their forehead?
Did they call you names?
Did they, like, how did the screaming, or sorry, how did the yelling occur?
So the vein thing, certainly for my mom, there was a lot.
I remember her hair just going crazy from her head movements.
My dad wasn't a shouting guy.
He was more of a threatening, intimidating, insulting, name-calling type of guy.
Sorry, and did both your parents call you names?
My parents, certainly.
My mom, I'm more unsure about that, but...
And what sort of names would you be called?
Lazy...
I don't know a word above lazy, but that would be it.
Like sloth?
Is it sloth?
Yeah, I get it.
Yeah, lazy, sloth-like, pitiful, pathetic.
Yeah, okay.
Got it.
Something that really hurt was I was going to fail financially.
That was like a My dad's prophecy.
Oh, you're going to be broke?
I'm going to be broke, yeah.
Yeah, because that's tied directly to the laziness, right?
Okay.
Oh, I remember, I guess you would translate it as asshole.
He called me asshole when I was about...
It's actually asshole, but kind of like a retard would be kind of the equivalent.
But when I was about, I think I was four or five, that really hurt me because we were playing.
And when I was at my top of my enjoyment, I was like, I remember I was screaming out of joy in public.
We were in the mountain, like skiing or something.
And he called me, don't be a...
To be a retard.
Okay.
And you were sorry.
I remember the picture.
It's my favorite.
We have a picture of that day.
So I think I was four or five.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Broken promises.
That's a strong one for my mom.
She would tell me, oh, yeah, I'm taking you to the park this evening.
And I'm like, yay.
And then the time comes and she's like, nope.
I changed my mind.
Right.
And no explanation.
No, nothing.
I just don't want to do it.
Right.
That was frequent.
Maybe it's not that frequent.
Maybe it's just that it was very intense for me.
Well, this vacuum that she broke.
Oh, your parents broke promises to your sister as well, which is probably one of the reasons why you breaking your promise is more painful.
Huh.
But anyway, we'll get back to the present.
I'm just trying to understand the past.
And so you talked about neglect, if I understood that correctly.
Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
It makes me think, that word makes me think about me in the room, sad, stressed about being broke, and then, yeah, nobody coming to see me, to ask me, just nothing, zero.
Right.
So you'd be upset and you would get no attention, no comfort.
Yeah, no, not at all.
It was actually punished.
Like, I had to smile because I was ruining their time by being sad.
So I was told to change my face, literally.
Change your attitude, fix your attitude, and yeah, stop bringing everyone down.
You mean that kind of stuff?
The face, like, I had to change my face expression.
Right, okay.
The muscles need to be in there.
I've thought about something else while I was talking, but now we're done.
There's certainly more stuff there.
Okay, you can collect that if you want, and if we can switch to Sally.
Okay.
So what I remember a lot is what Bob mentioned about my dad being intimidating.
He was very tall, so he would kind of like leer On top of us and, you know, have this typical, like, finger raised while he was, like, lecturing us.
Right.
He would humiliate us.
Like, for example, I have this very clear memory of once when Bob had written all over his school agenda, like, stuff like, it's my parents' fault, it's because of them, blah, blah, blah.
And a teacher had written, like, a note for my parents there.
And I think my parents, my dad particularly, went through the agenda while reading the note.
And he got really angry seeing Bob's notes.
And he started yelling at Bob.
And he might have been maybe 14 at this time, maybe a bit younger.
And he got to a point where he started yelling and ripping the agenda, throwing it to the floor.
And then he yelled at Bob to pick it up.
Because of pieces, yeah.
Yeah, and I remember I was in the room the whole time because they were near the door, so I felt uncomfortable leaving, like I was going to get attacked as well.
And the whole time I was thinking whether to jump in or not, but it felt really dangerous.
So there was this whole dangerous environment, horror.
And my mom...
She was more, I think, an emotional type of abuser.
I remember she would question every friendship that I had, telling me that people were taking advantage of me and they didn't enjoy spending time with me.
That it wasn't, you know, worth it.
And that was just kind of like pleading for people to hang out with me and getting out of the house the moment the phone rang, stuff like that.
And it was very hard.
Being relaxed with people after hearing that kind of stuff.
Right, okay.
And obviously this is a lot, and I'm very sorry to hear about all of this.
Is there more?
I remember my mom, and Bob wasn't at home this particular day, but she would hit my sister, which I don't know if you remember, she's in a wheelchair.
Right.
And at this point, she didn't have a motorized wheelchair, so she had to be pushed.
And my mom got angry.
At times, she'd had this recurring sadness pop up where she would say she was the last man in the house, like nobody cared about her or appreciated her.
And during one of this, I don't know what to call it, like a blow-up, She was with my sister downstairs and I was hearing from upstairs and I heard her slap my sister a couple times.
And then my mom started saying that she was going to leave us and started making a bag.
And I was crying asking her to not leave.
And I ended up calling my dad and standing at the door to try and get her to not leave.
Right.
Okay.
So that kind of stuff.
And is there anything else to mention in regards to that stuff?
Yeah.
They had similar episodes between them, involving especially alcohol.
They both drank plenty of beer throughout the day.
Oh, okay.
I remember my mom telling me that she grew up to be like a Ashamed of all the bottles that they stored in the garage to throw out, so she ended up putting them away in a hidden place and drinking out of cans instead, because they were easier to hide.
Oh, to hide, right, right.
And then she didn't even know how much she drank.
Right.
And so how much would they drink a day, do you think?
I mean, just roughly?
I'd say at least a liter.
And my dad had a drink often, some kind of cocktail or whatever, at night.
How many times a night?
I'd say mostly once, but sometimes twice.
And he would be, like, clearly drunk with, like, rosy cheeks in front of the TV. Got it.
Okay.
And do you think that they drank enough to affect their behavior in any reasonably significant way?
It's hard to say.
I'm not sure.
Okay.
I would say yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Yeah.
And, sorry, is there more?
more.
I don't want to jump the gun.
Well, like with my dad, the insults would be like a pretty common and intense, like He's called me things like, I think I said it in the last call, like a prostitute.
He's called me a shit child.
He's called me something like an asshole as well.
He's referred to, I think, both of us as selfish.
Spoiled.
Yeah, spoiled.
Which kind of made me laugh at times.
Yeah, kind of ironic, right?
Yeah, exactly.
Right, okay.
I'll keep asking anything else, in case there's anything else.
I have actually...
There was this attitude that he had about us that...
I think I'm ungrateful and that we don't know how good we have it.
And that we went and moved out.
I started threatening him that I was going to leave, that it was horrible for me.
And then he would be like, oh, you're going to have it much worse out there.
Reminds me of that Disney movie about the guy with the hunchback.
I think it's literally that situation.
Yeah, yeah.
Isn't that...
He tells him, oh, people hate you, that kind of thing.
Right, right.
Okay, yeah.
So, I mean, it's a way of saying that it doesn't have to be good here because it's really bad out there.
Okay.
And also, like, the one last thing that pops in my head is they overly, like, steered us towards studying...
And towards college, no matter what we do, we have to get good grades and get a college degree.
And I ended up spending eight years and I decided to leave without my degree.
And it inspires a lot of hate in me.
They didn't want us to leave the house and that, you know, like this perma studying thing kind of kept us longer, I think.
And they also didn't support stuff that like we could have made a living out of I really enjoy cooking and baking, but that was seen as either I wasn't good enough or sometimes it was kind of like a low reputation kind of job, I'm not sure.
Yeah, low status, yeah.
Yeah, exactly.
All right.
Anything else?
I have a couple.
I think those will be the last.
Even when we found, like Sally's saying, I don't even remember if it was Sally, her name, but even when we found some hobby or something, They would sell it as, oh, it's a fantasy, but you're not going to get anywhere with that.
Like, you don't know.
You don't know what you're doing.
Right, okay.
I remember, and the other thing is, I remember fighting back when I was kind of young, three, four, he was calling me names.
And I remember shouting at him, crying, stop, stop, stop doing that, stop doing that.
My parents in front of me and my dad just laughing and calling me that name over and over and over again.
Right.
All right.
Anything else?
No.
Just...
I remember when we left home, Sally and I, we would talk a lot about this, like, non-stop.
Remember when they did this, when they did that, and yeah.
Right.
And, sorry, Sally, anything else from you?
Nothing comes to mind.
Nothing else.
Okay, got it.
Now, what about positive things?
And I'm not trying to say there were, right?
I just want to make sure I understand the general scope of what was occurring.
So, were there positive things such as, oh, they took great pleasure in my sports or my writing or, you know, they enjoyed particular board games or, and again, I'm not saying there are or aren't, I'm just curious if there are anything that, you know, not in the defense of, but in The general situation.
I remember one time I had this shoe dyeing sponge.
I don't know if that's the term.
I'm not sure what that means.
Something you use to dye your shoes, to repair them, to make them look shiny.
I remember I used it up.
It wasn't working anymore.
And I started crying because I was sad that it was gone.
I couldn't use it anymore.
And I was so sad that my dad told me, he was sitting by me and he told me, oh, you're sad, aren't you?
And then he hugged me.
And that's the best feeling I have from him.
So there was one time, and it's really sad, of course, that is one time.
But there's one time where you felt very sad, but your dad did identify it and comfort you.
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
And the sports thing, nah, that's very mixed.
He said, he told me that I was good at this and that, but...
I didn't feel supported.
I did karate and he said, oh, you're good.
He told me that once or twice.
All right.
Anything else and maybe from Sally's side?
I remember my mom reading me and my sister stories in bed when we were little.
And she would be in the middle and my sister on one side, me on the other.
And she would hug us and grab the book.
And that was pretty cool.
Okay.
And my dad hugged me once or twice where it seemed kind of genuine and he was actually relaxed.
But that's pretty much it.
Okay.
All right.
Thank you.
He used to wrestle with me.
I had fun with that.
Okay.
Okay, so there's not much positive stuff, right?
No.
It's really much, you know, crumbs in the desert, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, the confrontations with your parents, or the conversations with your parents, however we want to phrase them, how did they go?
If you had them, I don't know whether you did or didn't, I think you did, but how did they go?
With my dad, they were generally like, he's a professor, so he's kind of eloquent, and he would get this tone of intellectual superiority.
And there wouldn't be, like, space for our side, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And my mom would, like, I think in a way disappear from the conversation.
She would be busy, like, doing dishes or cooking and, like, not engage until you can't, like, I remember just kind of, like, giving up and leaving the room.
All right.
So, is it fair to say that there were not any big breakthroughs, understandings, apologies, restitution, or anything like that?
Yeah, that's fair to say.
Okay.
Okay.
And is there anything else that you wanted to mention about that?
Go ahead.
My dad told me to leave.
Go on.
Just, my dad waved at me goodbye.
In a sarcastic, you know, smiling.
He smiled at me while waving.
Oh, so when you had issues, your father just said, basically get lost.
Yeah.
Okay.
And how long ago was that?
I'm sorry?
He was drunk, too.
He was drunk.
Wait, you had the conversation with him if he was drunk?
Well, I tried, right?
I was like, okay, I'm going to go.
I'm going to talk to him.
And then I was like, oh, I'll come back when...
Can I be a bit explicit?
Sure.
I remember telling him, I'll come back and talk to you when you have the balls to talk to me sober.
Right.
And he basically said, get lost, too bad, right?
Yeah, bye-bye.
Okay.
Well, I remember he laughed and said, oh, that's all you got to tell me.
Hmm.
All right.
So there hasn't been any particular change and I assume also not on the part of your mother, right?
Are you talking about today nowadays?
Well, yeah, I mean, throughout.
I mean, if there hasn't really been, then it doesn't matter whether it's sort of past or present.
Yeah.
No.
Okay.
No.
I mean, it reminds me of your past shows of yours.
Now it does seem different because of the, I guess, shift in power.
I don't know if that's the reason, right?
But it definitely feels like that to me.
Now they don't shout, now they don't...
So I guess that's a change, but...
I mean, the situation is different, too.
Right.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay, so this is to Bob.
Tell me a little bit about the girl you've met.
So she is an ex of one of my best friends.
I think that's important to say.
That's why I say it first.
Okay.
I met her...
Well, she met my friend through your community on the Discord.
They tried it for two years.
I think it was quite a struggle.
Well, I don't think it was for them because...
Well, that's not about me.
But she...
I guess I don't know if you want...
After he broke up with him...
Sorry, you said after he broke up with him, and if you could just clarify that a little.
Oh, sorry.
They broke up.
Now I'm not clear who broke up with whom.
I think it was he broke up with her.
Got it.
About three, four months after that, I started talking to her.
And it was pretty quickly that I felt excited, very excited about being with her.
Even marrying her.
Now I'm pretty sure that I want to marry her and be with her the rest of my life.
What else?
Oh, they don't...
She's not friends of my friends.
Which, by that I mean Sally and my brother-in-law.
Which...
I'm unsatisfied about that.
Oh, she has, of course.
She had abusive parents, I guess, surprisingly.
I'm not sure what else.
I'm a bit lost now.
No, that's fine.
How long have you been going out?
So we started talking online last December or November.
We started dating on February, that last February.
And then I moved with her on March.
So this year?
Yeah, that's this year.
So you moved countries to be with her within a month or two of dating?
Yes.
Yeah, two or three months.
That's right.
Okay.
And how were you able to move countries?
Moving countries is quite a complicated thing, isn't it?
I guess because I don't have baggage.
I literally put, I have everything in two suitcases.
No, no, but legally it's tough to, I mean, unless you're in the Schengen zone, I guess you don't have to tell me, but it's just, moving countries can be quite complicated.
I just got a tourist visa.
It wasn't that hard.
Well, actually the tourist visa was extremely easy to get.
Okay, so you're not there permanently, you're there for a couple of months.
Okay, got it.
Yeah.
Okay.
All right.
And what's the plan?
You're going to get married and then you're going to move or live where she is.
Is that right?
The plan is moving to my home country.
Oh, so she's going to come to your country after you spend some time in her country?
Yes.
It's not her country, though.
There's a third country, which is the one she completed her studies and Started working at.
We're in that country now, in that third.
Okay.
So we're in neither of our home countries.
And what does your girlfriend think about you being in touch with your parents?
So...
We have...
When I started dating her and when I moved here, I was...
I had no contact with my parents.
She...
So now it's where it gets a bit confusing to me because I have thoughts in my head, but I don't really know the facts.
What I have in my head is that she's fine.
Sorry, but you mean what you have in your head?
Sorry, when was it that you decided to get back in touch with your parents?
About two months ago.
Okay, so this is shortly after you moved to be with your girlfriend, right?
Yes.
Okay, so when she met you, you were not in touch with your parents and then you decided to get back in touch with your parents?
Yes.
Okay, so this would be a conversation you would have or discuss with your girlfriend, right?
Oh, yeah.
Okay, so what does she think?
I don't know.
Sorry, I'm not sure why this is so complicated.
Does she approve or disapprove of you being back in touch with your parents?
She approves.
She approves, okay.
And is she in touch with her parents?
Yes.
Okay.
Because I thought she was not in touch with her parents, so I apologize for all of that.
Okay.
So she approves of you being in touch with your parents.
Now, does she approve that you got back in touch with your parents without telling your sister?
Hmm.
I don't know.
So you didn't tell her?
I didn't tell her what?
So have you told your girlfriend that you got back in touch with your parents without telling your sister?
Oh, yeah.
No, I didn't tell her that I was getting back in contact with them without telling my sister, no, no.
Okay, but after?
When your sister brought this up as an issue, did you tell your girlfriend, my sister has an issue because I got in touch with my parents again without telling her?
Yes, yes.
Okay, and what does she think of that decision?
I don't know.
What, you told her and she has no opinion?
She just stared at you blankly, like with no response?
I think so.
Okay.
What does your girlfriend think of the fact that you promised not to talk about your sister to your parents and then broke that promise repeatedly?
No opinion.
Thank you.
No, come on, man.
Don't try.
She has no opinion.
No opinion on the fact that you broke your very serious promise repeatedly to your sister.
So, it's like I'm re-watching your callings, because I'm one of the callers.
I don't know.
I don't know.
You don't know what?
I don't know what she thinks.
I guess she doesn't like it that I break my promises.
Hang on.
Did you tell her or not?
I'm not judging.
I'm just, did you tell her, hey, I have a big conflict with my sister because I promised not to talk to my parents about her and then I broke that promise repeatedly.
Have you had the conversation with your girlfriend?
Yes, I have.
Yeah, yeah.
Definitely.
And she has no opinion about this?
I don't know her opinion.
Well, sure you do, because when you said something, she had a response, right?
I mean, you didn't whisper it to her while she was sleeping, right?
No, I don't remember.
I don't remember what she said.
Okay, I don't believe you.
I'm sorry.
I'm not saying you're lying to me directly.
I just can't fucking believe that for a split second.
That you have a conversation about betraying a woman who you've known a hell of a lot longer than your girlfriend, and your girlfriend has absolutely no opinion about this, positive or negative.
That's not possible.
So, if you want to be direct and frank with me, we can have the conversation.
If you don't, I'll move on to another topic.
But I'm not going to entertain things like, my girlfriend has no opinion about me betraying a woman I've known a lot longer than her.
I don't know.
I'm confused.
No, you're not confused.
Listen, I understand this is uncomfortable.
You don't want to answer.
Let's just be honest with each other.
Either you didn't tell her, or she had a negative response, or she has no sense of self-protection whatsoever.
Right, so there's no good answers here, right?
Or she disapproved of it, which would be the only healthy thing to do.
Now, that doesn't mean she condemns you, like we all make mistakes, we all do things that are wrong or bad, so it's not like you're some terrible guy from the depths of hell.
But you understand that your girlfriend has to evaluate your trustworthiness to move countries, get married to...
Do you guys want to have kids?
Okay.
So your girlfriend has to verify for herself on very scant information how trustworthy you are.
Because marriage is a vow, right?
Marriage is a promise.
Do you know...
She's told me that she doesn't like vows in marriage.
She doesn't like what?
Vows.
Vows.
Making vows in marriage.
What does that mean?
Then what's the point of marriage?
Isn't marriage a promise to stay together?
Yeah.
I see it like that.
So what's marriage for her?
I'm not sure.
Oh, come on, man.
Oh, come on.
This is just such...
This is pointless, honestly.
This is pointless.
Completely pointless.
Are you telling me you want to marry this girl and you have no idea what marriage means to her?
You've got to be fucking kidding me.
Like, are you trolling me at this point?
You have no idea what marriage means to your girlfriend, but you want to marry her!
Hmm.
I don't know, Stefan.
I'm sorry.
I just...
I don't know what to say.
So she's told you what she doesn't think marriage is, which is any kind of vow or promise.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Okay, so she says that marriage is not a vow or promise, and it doesn't cross your mind to say, well, what is marriage to you then, if we're going to get...
Because have you guys talked about getting marriage, right?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Okay, so you don't know what the word means to her.
I mean, it could be an open polyamorous relationship with warthogs, for all you know, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so why haven't you...
And I know this sounds like I'm condemning you.
I'm not.
Why haven't you asked her what she means by marriage?
Hmm.
Hmm.
Because...
Because marriage, I don't know what marriage means for me.
Well, that's another lie.
Do you think that marriage is about a promise or a vow?
Yeah.
It's about commitment, right?
But I can't keep promises.
Okay, but that doesn't mean that you don't know what marriage is about.
You might have doubts about your capacity to be married or keep your vows, but you know that marriage is about a vow, right?
Okay, so you know what marriage is about.
Yes.
Because you were able to differentiate when I said vow that that's not what your girlfriend believes, which means you believe it has something to do with vows, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, do you want me to tell you what's going on or do you want to keep this thing up?
No, tell me.
Okay.
So, you met a girl and you fell in love or you had an attachment.
That gave you great relief from sadness and loneliness and you're now addicted to her.
And because you're addicted to her, you can't say anything or ask anything that might cause her displeasure.
Because you talked about how lonely you were, right?
Now, your girlfriend, she had abusive parents, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Are they still negative or abusive, or have they reformed and become good?
They're still abusive.
Okay.
So your girlfriend is still in touch, or still in close contact with her abusive parents, right?
Who remain abusive.
Okay, so that's why you got back in touch with your parents.
Isn't it?
Because that's what she's done.
and you're like a shadow cast by her decisions because you're very needy because she's your path out of loneliness and sadness and tragedy and so on, right?
And so because you're addicted, you threw your daughter under the bus because the alternative, right?
Because if your girlfriend is in touch with her parents and her parents remain abusive, then either you're wrong or she's wrong in some ways, right?
I mean, I'm not saying this is logically absolutely true, but this is the way that people's brains work in a relationship, right?
Either she's wrong or you're wrong.
So either it's positive to be in touch with abusive parents or it's negative to be in touch with abusive parents.
And I'm not saying these are the only choices.
I'm just talking about how this kind of works in relationships.
So if she's in touch with abusive parents but you're not, you have a value difference.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Okay.
Now, you can't say to her, well, maybe your parents are okay, mine are not.
So she's like, well, I'm in touch with my abusive parents, and you're like, oh gosh, maybe I should be in touch with my abusive parents, because I can't have a value difference from this woman.
And even if we do have a value difference, like I believe marriage is about promises, and she doesn't, I'm not going to explore those value differences, because then she might get mad at me, and she might dump me, and then I'm back to being sad, tragic, and alone.
And I sympathize with this.
I really do.
I'm not condemning it.
I'm not criticizing it.
I'm just trying to identify it.
I mean, if this woman were to break up with you, how tragic would that be?
If you have a value difference, right?
If you have a value difference and you say, look, I don't really want to raise my children around abusive parents, so you've got to try and sort this stuff out with your parents.
I don't want to have my children exposed to negative or destructive behavior, so we're going to have to try and figure something out with regards to your parents.
If she's like, well, no, screw you.
I love my parents, and if you ask me to choose, I choose them over you.
Goodbye, or whatever it is.
I don't know what scenario might play out, right?
But that's not something you want to risk, is it?
Yeah.
I mean, no.
Yeah, you're right.
Okay.
And again, I'm not criticizing.
That seems like the mechanics, right?
I got everything except one sentence you said about our values not matching.
I don't think I'm going to be able to To wheel back on it.
I guess just record it too, but...
No, no, that's fine.
If you want me to explain something, I'm not a cryptic piece of stone here.
I mean, if you want me to explain something, I'm happy to do it.
It's just that I don't know how to pinpoint it now.
Like, I don't know how to make you go back to that point.
So there's a value difference, right?
Yeah.
So the value difference is...
Not about each individual can choose to have abusive people in his or her life.
Right?
That's a personal choice, right?
I don't recommend it hugely, but it doesn't particularly matter in a relationship context if it's just you, right?
No, no.
You're asking me to explain.
I'm explaining.
Okay.
So, now, when you get into a relationship, though, if you, let's say that there's a, we'll talk about theoretical Bob and Sally, right?
We'll say Alan and Jane, right?
So, Alan and Jane start dating, and Jane has abusive parents in her life, and Alan does not have abusive parents in his life.
Now, if Jane chooses to have abusive parents or people or siblings, it doesn't really matter.
If Jane chooses to have abusive people in her life, that's her choice.
It is inflicted only upon her.
Now, when Jane gets into a relationship with Alan, she is now bringing those abusive people into Alan's life.
Okay.
Makes sense?
Yes, no, it makes total sense.
Right?
If I have a cold and I choose to not take any medication and suffer through the cold, okay, that's fine.
That's my choice.
But if I choose to not take any cough suppressant or, you know, I sneeze without covering my mouth, if I do that at home, that's one thing.
If I do it on a subway, that's another thing.
Now, Jane and Alan, she then brings the abusive people into Alan's life.
Now, if Alan has a principle which says, I don't want abusive people in my life, then Jane and Alan have a conflict, right?
Yeah.
Now, if Jane and Alan are talking about getting married and having children, that's a whole different matter.
Because now they are bringing abusive people into the lives of children who have no say in the matter.
Now, if Alan says to Jane, I love you so much, I'm totally willing to have the abusive people in your life, in my life.
I'm totally fine with that.
Well, Alan is choosing that, right?
Yeah.
I don't necessarily agree with it.
But it's not a violation of the non-aggression principle to have abusive people in your life, assuming they're not beating you up, right?
Which is not the case, right?
So let's say you just have mean people who drink and call you names and, you know, they're just dangerous and negative and gaslighting and making you crazy and upsetting you.
Okay, but if you choose to have that in your life, that's still a result of free will.
It's kind of like overeating.
I don't recommend it, but it's not a violation of the non-aggression principle, right?
Now, but if Jane and Alan decide to have children, and then they bring those abusive people into the children's lives, we're in a totally different moral category.
Yeah, yeah.
So an analogy would be Jane enjoys masochistic sexual practices, right?
She likes to be beaten.
No, I'm serious.
Jane likes to be beaten.
And then Jane starts dating Alan, and Alan is like, oh, I don't really know.
That's not...
Okay, I guess I'll try it.
And he doesn't particularly like it, but he cares about Jane so much that he decides to get involved in this bondage, whatever nonsense, beating each other relationship, right?
Yeah.
So I don't think it's wise, but it's still free choice, free will, right?
Yeah.
Thank you.
Now, Bob and Jane, sorry, Alan and Jane have kids.
Can they then beat their kids?
Nope.
They can choose to beat each other if it's whatever, their masochistic weirdness, but they can't choose to beat their children because the children have no say in the matter.
I was starting to imagine my kid being held by my parents and it was freaking me out.
Thank you.
But that's not the issue.
The issue is...
Okay, you don't have to get into details, but on a scale of 1 to 10, how bad are your girlfriend's parents, in your opinion?
Oh, in my opinion...
They're like a 9, 8.
Okay, so in your view, they're very toxic and destructive.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, what is Jane's rationale for having them in her life, if you've talked about this?
And again, you can keep this very vague and abstract because she's not part of the conversation.
But in your view, why does she want people who are 8% or 90% toxic in her life?
Hmm.
Well, that's...
I guess...
This is where you tell me that my life is.
No, I'm not telling you anything.
Now, if you haven't had that conversation, that's fine.
Again, don't react to me like I'm some abusive parent.
I'm just asking questions.
I'm not attacking you.
I haven't attacked you, have I? I haven't called you any names, haven't insulted you or anything.
You raised my voice at you in anger or contempt or disgust.
I'm just asking questions, is that fair to say?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, have you had the conversation with your girlfriend about why she has abusive people in her life?
Okay.
And do you want her parents having a strong influence over your children?
No.
Okay.
Would that be a deal-breaker for you?
Yeah.
In other words, if she said, no, no, no, my parents are going to move in next door and help me with the kids, help us with the kids.
That would be a deal-breaker.
Deal-breaker, yeah.
Okay.
So, you don't want to have that conversation, right?
Listen, I completely understand that.
I'm not criticizing, I completely understand that.
Because you're in, I assume, the throes of sexual ecstasy and initial pair bonding, and you don't want to mess that up, because sometimes you could be quite unhappy, right?
You mean when I was alone?
Yeah.
Right.
Okay.
So, sorry, this is to Sally.
I haven't forgotten about you at all.
I'm just trying to help you understand what is going on for your brother and why he made the choices he made.
Yeah, I appreciate that a lot.
Now, I'm not giving him free will exemptions here.
I'm just saying that the reason that he got back in touch with your parents is because his girlfriend normalized the practice and he didn't want to confront her and risk losing his high from her affection and, I assume, sexuality.
And so he got back in touch with your parents out of an avoidance of conflict with his girlfriend, I think.
And, you know, you guys know the answer to this, but that would be my guess.
Yeah, like, what you guys have been talking about sounded like very true from, like, my perspective.
So, this is to Bob.
You can't have the conversation about what marriage means, because if you're too far apart, she might break up with you.
Or you might break up with her, and maybe you go through the same unhappiness your friend did, or something like that, right?
Or maybe you feel like, oh gosh, I'll never find anyone else again.
This is as good as it's going to get, and all of that.
And of course, your parents trained you, I think.
That you have to self-erase in order to be in a relationship.
You can't be in a relationship and have your own thoughts and opinions, because if you have your own thoughts and opinions, you're going to get attacked and insulted.
If you don't want to do something, you're just lazy.
If you don't want to agree to something, you're pig-headed and stubborn and you better lose that damn attitude.
So whatever you had as an opinion that differed, Yeah.
Yeah, it is.
Right.
Now, in that way, you are treating your girlfriend as if she's your abusive mother.
Okay.
Huh.
Interesting.
That I can't disagree with her.
otherwise she will threaten and abandon me oh my god Now, the problem is, why doesn't your girlfriend know this?
Or does she, maybe as a result of being in contact with fairly toxic parents, maybe she enjoys the power that she has over you.
I don't know.
But if she doesn't notice you self-erasing, that's a problem.
I'm not saying it's a disaster, but it's a problem.
If she doesn't even notice whether you're there or not, or whether you're agreeing with her or not, or whether you're appeasing her or not, that's a problem.
Because either she doesn't notice when somebody's there or not, which means she's not particularly present, or she does know and she doesn't want to change it.
Do you know, I'm relating a lot to what you're saying.
Like, even when she wants to take a walk...
And I disagree.
I collapse.
Sure.
Emotionally.
Sure.
And that was an absolutely necessary survival strategy based upon the tragedies of your childhoods.
And I hugely sympathize with that.
And I have no criticism with that as a strategy when you were children.
I'm glad you did.
Otherwise, I'd be talking to myself here, right?
Now, I don't even view your girlfriend as the primary actor here.
So, the way I would go one layer deeper, and I'm sure there's more lower down, but the layer deeper that I would go is that you have a girlfriend who's trapped by a kind of dragon, right?
You know that there's all these stories of the knights who have to go and rescue the virgin from the beast, right?
The dragon or something like that.
So, that story is trying to rescue Someone you care about from abusive relationships.
They could be parents, they could be extended family, they could be siblings, they could be friends or something like that, right?
Now, your girlfriend's parents obviously don't want to let her go and don't want to change for the better.
So it's not so much even that if you criticize your girlfriend's parents, it's not even, I think, that you would think, oh, she's just going to side with them and she's going to call me a bad guy and she's going to break up with me.
I was thinking about that.
I'm sorry?
I was thinking about that, and I think you're right.
Yeah, I don't think that's the foundational thing.
I think that she has self-erased with regards to her parents, and therefore, when you're disagreeing with her, you're not disagreeing with her, you're provoking her parents that she has no capacity to resist, and they will make her dump you.
I say because the only reason somebody would have eight or nine toxic out of ten toxic parents is because they're appeasing the parents at the expense In other words, they're self-erasing to some degree in order to pursue a survival strategy called appease the brutal parents.
Which, again, I sympathize with and I certainly understand.
But if she's not there and you're not there, Then her parents are running the show.
And the show is, oh, well, we don't ever want to be rejected for being dysfunctional.
Oh, here's a guy who has rejected his parents for being dysfunctional.
Well, damn, we can't have that!
So we got to reconnect him back with his parents!
They don't know any of that.
I know!
I'm not saying they know.
I'm not saying they know a thing.
I'm saying it's the process and the principle in the unconscious.
I wanted to just add that.
They don't know the story.
I'm not trying to disagree with you or anything.
It's just like they don't know that I wasn't talking to them, and then I started talking to them.
She hasn't told them that.
Right.
They're not aware.
But they are alive in her mind, and you're dealing with her inner parents, not her outer parents.
So her inner parents here, you dump dysfunctional parents?
Well, that's not happening.
We're not allowing that.
So we're going to have to break that principle.
Right?
So you're going to have to dump this guy, or he's going to have to reconnect to his parents, because we are not having the principle of don't be in touch with abusive parents.
We're not having that around.
Because if the relationship goes forward, right, are you going to want her parents all over your marriage?
Oh, no.
Okay, so they know that's coming, right?
That you're going to try and free her.
Sorry, go ahead.
I just wanted to, it's in my head, and I want to propose it in case it's helpful or you guys are okay with it.
She's with me.
If it would be a positive, you think that she's in the call, that would be plausible.
I think I would rather schedule that separately.
The reason being that we've been going for an hour and a half almost.
To get that story would be another hour and a half, and three hours is more than I can Schedule today.
So we can have that conversation with her for sure.
Honestly, I'm perfectly happy to have that conversation, but her jumping into this with no backstory, she can listen to this conversation, she can get up to speed, and then we can schedule something with her, but I don't want to jump this on her, if that makes sense.
Okay.
Yeah.
Okay.
So...
It's not...
And listen, to your sister, to Sally here, you know, big hugs.
It's easy to take this stuff personally.
He betrayed me.
And it's easy to get outraged.
And I sympathize with that.
I'm not criticizing that.
I understand that.
But if you look at the deeper mechanics...
It's one thing to not have abusive people in your life.
It's another thing, quite another thing, to not have abusive habits in your life.
You know, it's one thing to quit drinking.
It's another thing to stop thinking about alcohol and stop wanting it and stop missing it.
So, this is to you, Bob.
You got involved with a woman.
Okay.
With regards to your own parents, again, that sort of 1 to 10 scale, where would you put your own parents out of 10, roughly?
This is to Bob.
Well, you can both answer, but...
Now, that's a hard...
Well, no, because they haven't changed that much, right?
Because they haven't had any big revolution or reforms or anything.
So they haven't changed that much, right?
So it's not a tough decision.
So it's a nine?
Okay, so her parents, I think you said, were an eight or nine.
Sorry, Sally, I don't want to talk to you like you're not here.
So where would you put your parents on that one to ten scale?
I would say a seven or an eight.
Okay.
And the disparity is just differences of experience, so I'm not going to, you know, there's nobody right, right?
We're talking about the...
Okay.
So, for you, Bob, your girlfriend's parents are only slightly less toxic than your own.
Is that right?
Yeah.
I'm lacking the experience, but...
I'm sorry?
Well, I know the stories, and I know the stories, so I think they're both.
I think theirs are worse than mine.
Her parents are worse than yours?
Sorry, yeah, hers.
Yeah, okay, got it.
So, you do realize that by dating and moving and talking about marriage, you are bringing her parents back into your life.
You're bringing destructive or abusive parents back into your life.
Yeah.
I mean, you must have noticed that, right?
Would you say that she's fairly in touch with her?
Like, in a scale of one to ten, like ten being calls every day, one being once a year, how is she in terms of spending time with her parents or being in contact with her parents?
I would say about four times a week.
Oh, four times a week?
No, no, I'm not telling you to change your story, but that's a lot, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, they're going to be involved in your marriage, they're going to be at your wedding, they're going to be helping raise your kids.
Now, you can say, well, we'll move, okay, but they're still going to be calling and talking, and they're still going to have a big effect on your marriage, and they may choose to move as well, or whatever, right?
Okay.
So, out of the haze of lust and romance and excitement and all of that, which, you know, I don't have any problem with that.
I think it's a beautiful part of life.
But you are a little bit sleepwalking into a mess, if I understand this correctly.
Have you talked with her about how you might raise your kids?
Yeah, we've talked about homeschooling and...
Peaceful parenting.
Home birth.
Oh, yeah.
Okay.
So, have you said that you don't want dysfunctional people in your children's lives?
Because that's a very important part of peaceful parenting.
I mean, obviously, it's not peaceful parenting if you don't hit your kids, but your parents do.
Their grandparents do.
I'm saying that's an extreme.
But have you talked to her about not having toxic people in the children's lives?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, and what's her thoughts on that with regards to her family?
She told me that she won't allow them to interact with her kids until they're able to speak and communicate.
That's what she told me.
Okay, so she won't allow the parents to interact with the children until the children are old enough to speak.
Is it her idea or her thought that by the time her children, or your children, your combined children, by the time they're able to speak, that her parents will be better people?
No, I think the idea is that they'll be able to...
Communicate abuse.
Your children will be able to communicate abuse.
Yeah, or like give signals.
Well, but the parents would just adjust their strategies, right?
It's like if you put a camera in a store, the thieves just go where the camera isn't, right?
So if the parents know that the kids are going to talk, they'll just do other things.
They'll just change their strategies.
It's not like a rock in the road you've got to drive around.
They're going to adapt, right?
Okay, so she says that my parents are so toxic that I don't want my children exposed to them.
So then she is aware, and this is news to me, so this is good, right?
So she's aware of how destructive her parents could be towards your children, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, does she want them at the wedding, or does she want them, I mean, part of, she's going to still be in contact and in communication with them and talking to them four times a week or whatever, right?
As though her children can't be around them, but she who was raised by them can, without damage, without harm?
Sorry, I'm confused.
You say that she can't be...
In her view, her children or her babies can't be around her parents without being harmed.
But she who was raised and abused by her parents can be around her parents without being harmed.
Interesting.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
I mean, that doesn't make any sense, right?
I guess she can speak, right?
She can, which is her standard for her kids, too, isn't it?
Well, okay, so let's say that the children, her toddlers, say, uh, grandma and granddad were mean to me, or whatever, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so then what would the result of that be?
Hmm.
Um, Thank you.
Nothing...
Well, there'd have to be some result!
Right?
Otherwise, what would be the point of any of it?
I mean, no change.
Sorry?
I guess, for me, no substantial change.
No, no.
For your girlfriend, if her parents are around her children, her children then are able to speak and they say, you know, grandma and granddad were mean to me and called me names, then what would your wife or the mother of your children do with that information?
I don't know.
Tell me.
Okay, I understand she'd tell you, but what would the point of it be?
What would happen?
I don't know.
Well, would she not say to her parents, I don't want you around my children if you're going to be mean to them and call them names?
Because what's the point of the children coming to you and saying, Grandma and Grandad were mean to me, if nothing changes?
The whole point of getting that information, saying, well, they can't see them until they're older, so they can tell us about any potential abuse.
Well, the reason they would tell you about the abuse is so you could do something about it, right?
Yes.
Okay, so what would she do?
I don't know.
Okay, if you had to guess.
I mean, you moved countries for this girl, you've got to know something about her.
She would talk to them, to her parents.
Okay.
And if that did not change, what would happen?
Regarding her?
No, your children.
If the grandparents were still mean to your kids, and the kids kept telling you, and they didn't listen and didn't change, what would happen?
Oh...
They would not trust us.
What would happen?
You're talking about feelings!
Be male!
What would happen?
I don't know, Steph.
Yes, you do!
The whole point of saying, well, we have to wait until the kids can speak so they can report any abuse, is so you can protect the children, right?
So if the grandparents are still mean to the grandkids and won't change and don't listen or just switch tactics or gaslight or whatever, then they would not be welcome to see the children, would they?
They would not be welcome to see the children?
Sorry, you cut off.
So if the grandparents are relentlessly mean to the grandchildren, and the grandchildren keep coming to you as mom and dad and saying, grandma and granddad are mean, Then wouldn't the result be that grandma and granddad, if they won't change, can't see the kids?
Because you're not going to repeatedly put your kids in situations where there's mean people calling them names, are you?
Yeah, I mean, now we have gone now.
So the whole point of waiting until they can talk is so that they can tell you if the grandparents are mean so that you can protect the children, right?
Yes.
Do you follow?
Does this make sense?
Yeah, it makes sense.
You're just breaking up a bit.
Not on my end, but all right.
Okay, so the point is that if the grandparents continue to be negative or abusive to the grandchildren and don't change, then the grandchildren would be separated from the grandparents.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
So why am I hammering this point so hard, do you think?
I just came up with maybe the kids wouldn't like to not have their grandparents around.
Well, no.
Sorry, it's not particularly relevant what the kids like and don't like.
It's because, you know, kids like candy, but they don't live on candy, right?
Kids might want to sit playing video games all day, but you try and urge them to come out and get some sun.
So just what the kids want is not how you make parental decisions, right?
No, it's because if the principle is that if the grandparents don't change, then you disconnect them from the grandkids, right?
Yeah.
Well, why would that be a rule that only applies to the grandkids and not their actual children?
Huh.
I see.
So she's saying, this is not even a supposition, right?
This is the domino.
It's based upon, well, we can't let the kids see the grandparents until the kids are old enough to report abuse.
abuse, it would be...
All right, sorry about that, Michael.
My computer just completely shut down for reasons I can't comprehend, but we're back.
Now she's out.
Oh, she can't leave?
Yeah, I don't know.
No, no, no.
She was trying to fix it and wanted to make another call, but now she's out.
I don't know how to invite her back.
Oh, okay.
I think I can invite her.
It's nice.
Hearing you're breaking down the mechanics.
Yeah, it's funny because it's easy to take offense, but if you look at the mechanics, it usually comes into view.
She also may have some parenting to do, which I can completely understand.
Yeah.
She's unavailable.
Okay.
No, no worries.
We'll just finish up here.
She can listen to this later, so...
Okay, so if we look at it in this kind of way, I don't know if you've talked to your friend, and we don't have to reveal this kind of conversation, but I don't know if you've talked to your friend who dated her before, your girlfriend, and you said to your friend, well, gee, what about her parents, right?
And he's like, oh, no, she's not going to have any negative things to say about her parents, or she's not going to change with regards to her parents.
And that's a choice, and so on.
That's a choice that an adult can make, and two adults can make, but it can't be inflicted On the kids.
So I think that she may not have thought through to marriage and children to the point where she's going to say, well, I can't really inflict negative parents on my children, like grandparents on the kids, right?
Say, oh, well, but it'll just be me.
And it's like, but the thing is, when you become a parent, as I'm sure you'll be aware, when you become a parent, you just have to make every decision relative to what's good for your kids.
I mean, that's it.
That's all it comes down to.
And is it good?
You say, oh, well, but the grandparents are going to have direct access to the kids.
It's like, yeah, but they're going to have indirect access to the kids by influencing the parents.
And if the grandparents are stressing the parents out and causing problems, then that interferes with the parenting quality.
And so, whatever interferes with the quality of parenting is not to be accepted, right?
Because you have to focus on that which is best for the children.
And so, I think that it's likely that...
Oh, sorry, you could just mute.
I'm sorry to apologize.
Take your time before you're parenting, but it's a little distracting.
So, yeah, it could be just that this woman has not had a strong enough man to say, you know, you have to leave your parents and cleave to your husband.
And the reason you do that is so that the parents, the grandparents, don't have undue influence over the marriage, or her parents don't have undue influence over the marriage.
And so...
You being back in touch with your parents, you know, that's a choice that you can make for yourself.
It's a choice that your girlfriend can make.
But if it's negative for your children, that's not a choice you can reasonably make.
So I think it's worth having those conversations and saying, now, if she's like, well, my parents won't have any effect, that's Odd, right?
Because if she's saying, my parents won't have any effect, then she would also be saying that you as parents don't really have much effect on your kids, right?
Or they won't have any negative effect.
It's like, okay, but what if they just have a negative effect on you and the kids?
Right?
Like, she can say, well, they, and it's not believable, but she could say, well, my parents don't have any negative effect on me.
And it's like, well, but I don't like them because they hurt you.
Right.
This is just a love thing, right?
How is love differentiated from lust?
Well, lust compromises on values and love embodies them.
Right.
So do you like your girlfriend's parents?
Okay.
Do you dislike your girlfriend's parents?
Yes.
Okay.
Is it productive in the long run to lie about that?
No.
Right.
And, you know, could it be the case that she hears that, I mean, and how could she be upset if you say, I don't like your parents because they treat you badly?
I mean, I guess she could get upset by that in a way, but it's kind of an odd thing to get upset about.
I dislike people who treat you badly is not exactly an insult, right?
No.
And so, one of your values is going to win, right?
Either the value of have healthy people in your life is going to win, or the value of obey toxic people out of fear.
Because, I mean, that's all it comes down to.
She's scared of her parents.
And you're scared of your parents, and you're scared of the feeling that might happen if you're alone, and all of that, right?
So, I understand that.
I do, and I sympathize with that, but it is just fear.
Like, why would anybody want, you know, toxic, destructive, manipulative, aggressive people in their life?
Like, why?
There's no benefit to it.
It's not good for you.
It's not healthy.
It's not right.
It keeps the good people away.
And it draws more bad people in.
So why would you want it?
Well, because of fear and fear of attack, fear of negative judgment, fear of social ostracism or scorn and so on.
So I guess that's sort of my fundamental question is, are you having really foundational conversations about why you're doing what you're doing?
And just asking the questions.
Help me understand the benefit of having these eight or nine level toxicity parents in your life.
And help me understand how, as a man who really cares about you, how do you think I should relate or how do you think I'm going to relate to people who not only did the greatest harm to you in the past when you were a vulnerable child, But also do the greatest harm to you in the present of anyone I see.
How can I like them?
How can I want to have them in my life?
And if this is how they treat you as an adult, imagine how they're going to treat our kids as kids.
And you can't create a magic human shield that completely blocks all the effects of your parents from your children.
Because if your parents are mean to you, they're going to upset you.
And if they upset you, you can't be as good a mother, at least in that moment.
So I just think it's...
And these are just interesting questions to talk about, sort of very deep and important questions.
And the other question is, if you keep these sort of turbo-toxic people in your life, then what kind of husband do you think you're going to get?
Like, what kind of husband is going to be, yes, I'm very keen to have these people who hurt the woman I claim to love the most and continue to hurt her.
Yes, they should absolutely come to the wedding.
Yes, they should absolutely be in charge of our grandparents.
Yes, I'm absolutely happy to have their influence in my family's life.
This is why, you know, unfortunately you were raised by, you know, the sort of toxic levels of caricature masculinity on the part of your father, I think, but The masculine impulse is to provide and protect.
And sometimes we have to protect people from things they want.
Right?
Like we have to protect our children from the candy that they want to eat.
We have to protect ourselves.
I'd love to sit around on the couch eating cheesecake all day, but I can't do that because it's unhealthy.
Like, I have to protect myself from things that I want.
And so the masculine protection is, look, I know you want it.
I get that.
I know you really want it, but it's not good for you.
And having those conversations...
Now, women protect in other ways, which is also important, but the masculine protection is, you know, to gently take the thing that is harmful out of the person's hands while explaining to them that you're doing this out of love.
And that, I think, is the major issue.
And with regards to your sister, I mean...
Of course, I mean, I think you owe her an apology because you kind of talked her into separating from your parents and then you went back in without even talking to her about it.
And that's going to be painful.
And that shows a clear loyalty to something other than her.
And I think what you're loyal to is your girlfriend's inner parents, in a way, rather than what's going to happen.
And that's because of your vulnerability to being loyal to your parents, right?
So, I think that, yeah, this is a bit of an apology, but I think with the understanding, she'll take it less personally, if that helps.
Yeah.
Well, yeah, I'm already thinking about Having that conversation.
Yeah, it's not easy, but it is what I want to do at the end of the day.
Well, I mean, you obviously don't want to cause these kinds of problems with your sister, and I don't know that you want to get back into toxic parent land.
And even if you choose to, I don't think that you have the right to inflict toxic parent land on your kids.
I think that's the main thing.
I didn't understand that.
I had it reversed.
What do you mean?
It's like, okay, my kids won't see my parents because they're bad, but I can take the beatings.
Because I'm this understanding man, and I'm so compassionate and open-minded, and that's what was driving me to this.
But my kids know.
My kids need to be protected.
Well, it's going to have an effect on you.
So this is the Aristotelian mean, right?
So a deficiency of courage is cowardice, and excess of courage is foolhardiness.
So, you know, I unarmed can take on 10 guys with guns is an excess of courage, right?
That's just foolhardiness.
And I've been severely traumatized by abusive parents for 25 or 30 years, but I can be around them without it upsetting me is an excess of courage called foolhardiness.
And it's not true.
It's not true.
Let me give you a tiny example.
I grew up with cockroaches.
I don't know if you've ever had an apartment or a house full of cockroaches, but they're horrible.
It's a complete nightmare.
In fact, I remember seeing cockroaches In my stove, there was like a glass clock, and I could see cockroaches looking in behind the glass clock of the stove.
You'd lift up stuff, there'd be cockroaches.
And you'd get the place fumigated from time to time, and then they'd come back, and so on.
And it had a lot to do with people just not keeping the apartment building clean in their own apartments.
So let me tell you, I have not seen a cockroach In a house that I've lived in, in probably 30 to 35 years.
Right?
I mean, my wife keeps a fantastic house.
I'm fairly tidy myself, and we just, we never had that kind of issue, and it's not been a thing, right?
But let me tell you, so the other day, I was taking a piece of toast out of the toaster, and it was like this thick multigrain bread, and a seed fell on my hand, and it looked like a cockroach.
And I jumped back like I'd been electrocuted.
And I have not had a cockroach on me or in the vicinity in probably close to 35 to 40 years.
Hmm.
Thank you.
Is it from spoiled food?
I'm sorry?
Is it from spoiled food that they appear?
Well, it's just if you leave food around, if you don't wipe down the counters, if you don't...
Now, I was fairly clean, even as a teenager, because I was running my own house from the age of 15 onwards.
But the problem is, if you're in an apartment building, if there are other people around who leave food around, they will eat.
And then they spread to your building, because they go through the walls or the pipes or whatever, the vents.
And so, when you have your own house, you can keep your house clean of cockroaches.
But if you live in an apartment building, you're dependent upon...
Everyone else is cleanliness, which is just not going to happen.
There are hoarders, there are people who don't tidy up, and so on, right?
So the point is not how cockroaches come about.
The point is that it's been 35 to 40 years since I've had to live with cockroaches, and my brain was so hardwired that when I thought that there was a seed on my hand that looked like a cockroach, I jumped back like I'd been electrocuted.
That's how deep the memories go.
That's how imprinted these issues are.
So I'd be like, oh, I'm fine with cockroaches.
No, I mean, I haven't lived with cockroaches for 35 years.
And then I see one seed, and I didn't look at it and think.
It was completely physiological.
It was an automatic physiological response.
I jumped back and, like, shaking my hands like crazy.
That's how deep the wiring goes.
And that's just a cockroach, which is just a little insect, never made any harm, just trying to live and do its thing.
Right?
So, that's just a little cockroach that never did me any particular harm, just filled me with a kind of Kafgian horror, right?
What about a toxic parent that I spent a lot more time with than a cockroach and did a lot more harm, infinitely more harm to me than cockroaches did?
So the idea that we can just undo all of this wiring is about as sane as saying, I can undo learning the language that I grew up speaking.
You just can't.
It's automatic.
It's an autonomic nervous system response.
It's down in the fight-or-flight mechanism.
It is not subject to your conscious control, for the most part.
So the idea that you can just contain it is not reasonable.
All right.
So that's what I wanted to get a question.
Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
I have a question for you.
I'm curious, when did this start to be in your head, this ingrained What you're talking to me about that is too powerful.
You can't do it.
Oh, gosh.
I mean, I was in my 20s and I read a book which was comparing child abuse to being in war.
Hmm.
And the book was basically, and I won't go into the whole case, but the book was basically making the case, look, war happens, you've got companions, you're armed, you can fight back, you can shoot back, you've got a chain of command, you've got, you can in many, a lot of times the soldiers choose to be there, in that they're not, you know, forcefully drafted and so on.
And you certainly do risk death and wounding, but actually the death and wounding happens to a minority of people in combat.
And again, you get to fight back.
You have allies.
You have a community.
You have access to medical care.
People are on your side.
They cheer when you come back.
You get medals.
You get pensions.
You know, everybody loves you for the protection you've provided, as opposed to child abuse, which happens in isolation, turning kids against each other as you returned against your sister.
There's no support.
There's no medals.
There's no approval.
And if you ever try to get free of it, you'll be condemned and ostracized by society.
And it happens not to already adult-formed personalities, but it happens to personalities that are in the process of being formed, and the general case was that child abuse is in many ways worse than Being in combat as a soldier.
And it was a very, very sort of powerful case.
And, you know, and I remember when I was watching the movie Saving Private Ryan, which is kind of overwhelming in its depiction of violence, I was thinking, like, there's no way that you could have been in combat.
I mean, I'm finding this tough to watch, and I've never been in that kind of combat.
And so I remember thinking that there's no way that A soldier who'd been in this kind of combat could watch that movie and not have it affect him.
Like, that's a physiological spinal response.
And I was just reminded of it a day or two ago when a seed fell on my hand and I jumped back, though I haven't had to deal with cockroaches in almost 40 years.
And how new was this idea to you?
How groundbreaking was it?
Oh, completely revolutionary.
Yeah, absolutely.
Really?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
All right, my friend, it is time for me to get some food, and I'm trying not to eat on the show.
Yes, me too.
Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
Yes.
And if your girlfriend wants to have a call in with you or just on her own, I'm obviously happy to help as best I can.
I want the very best for you guys as a whole, and I certainly want the very best for your children to come, so just keep me posted about that.
Thank you.
You're very welcome, and do say bye to your fine sister, and I'm sure we'll talk again.
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