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Oct. 16, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:16:09
STOP TAKING SHORTCUTS! Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Hey Steph, I've sent a few requests to speak to you before this one, but in retrospect I understand that the detachment and dissociation I represented in those would have turned anyone off if they were even seen.
I'm a 28-year-old white man, and I have no network of friends and no personal relationships beyond the dissociated persona necessary for business.
I have no one to share thoughts with, and I find myself resenting others.
The longer I associate with someone, the more distance will come between us.
Frankly, I wish that I had some adverse experience in childhood to pull from, as opposed to the gelatinous, congealed mass of directionless wasted time my childhood was.
Parents that were well-off enough to buy things and still complain about money.
I never learned negotiation or had any wisdom imparted onto me by them or any other adult figures in my life.
I sought out mentors, teachers, and professors, but like with my parents, nobody seemed to be interested.
My blind-taught social survival allowed me to avoid being the subject of overt ridicule, but I believe that this was at the expense of my dignity and self-worth, i.e.
clown behavior. This behavior, I found, stems from a strategy I implemented to achieve recognition from my parents.
I want my desires for companionship and interest made, but 30 years of failing has led me to feeling resentment towards those who reject me, or rather, don't show interest in me.
My neurotic, high-strung behavior, my history, and my lack of wisdom and experience might contribute to this, but entering into conversations, I also have to imagine that below-the-surfer's resentment shows in pretty tangible and off-putting ways.
This negative feedback loop has continued on and thusly for as long as I can remember.
I don't want to die, but in my moments alone, I feel like I do.
My conception is not that such a thing would be helpful, and I've been working with self-knowledge, sought professional help, and practically speaking, I'm farther away from the attachments that have harmed me.
And yet, sometimes I'll go back to my parents or watch porn or drive, walk around aimlessly for hours.
Correction, I don't really watch porn.
I don't.
I use my imagination, but it doesn't matter.
Simply out of a need for stimulation, which will end up entering another negative feedback loop.
Dying, as it were, represents escaping from an inescapable situation.
Not because of an afterlife, but because the only feedback I'm receiving from my failures is, I don't want to feel like this anymore.
I have to imagine this too radiates off of me and repels others.
My desire is to get feedback from the king of feedback.
I will be more than infinitely grateful for your time, and I wish you the best.
I appreciate that.
A very frank and honest email.
So let's start in the origin story.
Tell me about your childhood. Start from the beginning, right.
Now I've listened to a few call-in shows, but let's just start from the beginning.
I was born to two parents that are still married to this day.
I'm a middle child. My brother is two years older than me, and my sister is two years younger than me.
And we originally...
My mom has been a software developer slash computer I'll try to keep it vague for as long as she's had a career.
And my dad has done various odd jobs since.
She's been a major breadwinner.
Sorry, what do you mean odd jobs? I don't know what that means.
Right. So that's actually part of the progression of the story.
When he had us, he was doing stuff with garage doors.
He was like a manager for a garage door trade company.
They did garage doors and insulation and stuff like that.
Okay, so he's the manager of a company that's more than an odd job, right?
You mean he's just been like a jack-of-all-trades?
He's moved around? Well, when I say...
I mean, it really has been odd jobs because he was a regional manager, but then he went to a different company to do fireplaces, and then he started doing stuff with mattresses.
He started selling mattresses.
The family had a laundry business.
So I guess more jack-of-all-trades.
He's had a little bit of dabbling in everything.
Yeah, our job usually means like you're repairing screen doors and stuff at people's houses.
It's kind of low-rental.
But if he's managing stuff, he's just got a restless kind of career.
Maybe he never quite found his niche in...
And all of that. So, compared to your mom, who I guess has been plodding along in the software field forever and on.
So, it's a little different for your dad.
But it's not odd jobs like he's, I don't know, some sort of half-retarded guy who can only shovel sidewalks or something.
No, not quite. And most of his efforts were spent.
You know, he's the kind of guy who, when he has a house, he builds a deck.
Oh, if we don't have a deck to build, build a screen porch.
If you don't build a screen porch, do the yard.
He's always looking for something to do with whatever he's up to.
Why would he want to do all that work?
He's got three kids, right? That's a question I haven't gotten answered.
The worst part for me, my experience...
He would wrangle us into all of these random odd jobs.
You know, our summers were spent working on decks and doing the yard, but not even for other people.
He was like, hey, I want to build a deck for the house.
So we built a deck.
Well, I assume that your kids weren't, like, asked, do you want to spend your summers building decks?
Because you'd have been like, no, in fact, I really don't.
No, that's a very common through line throughout the whole childhood.
Spoilers, we weren't asked much of anything about anything.
And could I, sorry, could you just back off the mic a little bit?
You're buzzing. You're just a little too close to the mic.
No, no problem. Okay, so he was like, what's the drive behind this workaholism and not asking kids what they want to do?
It's almost like bullying.
Like, I'm going to do this stuff and your kids are going to get dragged along and if you have any problems with it, I'm going to call you lazy.
I don't know. Like, I'm just guessing.
It was never overt calling us lazy, but there was a lot of ambivalence and apathy he shared and my mom likewise shared towards all of our states.
In hindsight, I can't recall a single time.
Your states? My states, yeah.
What does your states mean?
Yeah. Well, when I was happy, my mom didn't seem to care.
She never asked me what was up. When I was down, she never really seemed to care.
Oh, your state of mind. My state of mind.
Emotional states. Okay, there was a word missing there.
Now I got it. So there was ambivalence about your emotional states.
So I'm sure you're going to help me know what that means.
But sorry, go ahead. Well...
One of the things I mentioned in the email specifically was the gelatinous mess of something.
Just so you know, the gelatinous mess of something explains how much to an outsider.
Because this is probably one of the challenges that you have.
That you have a story of your life and you're trying to communicate it to other people and you think a gelatinous mess of whatever explains anything.
Just as, you know, you don't feel the need.
You put the word state in with that emotional state or anything like that.
So, you know, just pretend I speak a foreign language and I've just emerged from the matrix and I'm trying to understand your life and assume that I know nothing.
So just, you know, don't rush.
Don't do shorthand or anything like that.
Just, you know, again, explain it to me like I'm five.
Right. And that is a problem.
That's one of the things I'm coming to you for is...
Well, people rush and then they wonder why people aren't listening.
Right? You're like, well, I don't want to impose, so I'm going to rush through the story to the point where nobody can follow anything and then they're like, oh, I guess people just don't listen to me.
And then it gets worse, right?
Right. So let me pull back a little bit.
So when it comes to my dad, there was a lot of...
We were never asked. We weren't asked for anything.
We went to public school and eventually we started winding up in daycare for summers.
They were never... Sorry, daycare or summer camp?
Both! In elementary school, we were in public school, public school the whole time.
During the summers, we were put into either a summer camp.
There was one summer camp, but most of it was spent in daycare.
Sorry, so daycare, I'm trying to sort of...
Oh, so daycare, you would be like 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 years old or whatever, and you'd be in a daycare for the summer?
Yep. Okay. And all three of you were put in daycare for the summer?
Yes, for multiple, at least two.
Holy crap, did your parents ever not want to spend time with you?
Yes. Three kids in daycare, right?
I mean, do you know how much that costs?
It costs a lot.
Thousands of dollars a month, right?
It could be, right? They also bought a boat, though.
Well, so then why did your mother stay home at any point when your kids were younger?
I have some videos and pictures from childhood.
I distinctly have seen pictures of that.
I think that's like maybe when we were like two or three she did.
But as far as I can tell across her whole life.
Sorry, you mean from birth?
I mean, were you breastfed? You know, if she stayed home with you guys when you were big?
No, I don't.
I think she did for the maternity leave for whatever company she was at.
So like a couple of months. As far back as I can remember.
Months kind of thing maybe? Yeah, if there was any time she was, it's before I can remember.
My entire life, she's never really stayed home like that.
Okay, got it. Yeah, so...
I don't want to interrupt.
I mean, I can prompt you back to where you were, but I don't want to interrupt if you're...
No, no, I'm just dealing with...
The feedback you just gave me about rushing too much.
Somewhere in the middle is fine.
Somewhere between a massive compression and 10 second pauses is fine.
Then I'll just get back to the childhood.
Yes, daycare. We'll go back to daycare.
Starting from childhood, we were in elementary school and we Before daycare, we had an intergenerational family household with my grandmother and my cousins.
So from about birth until the third grade in America, you know, like five, six, seven, we would go to my grandmother's house.
But she was Spanish, and she didn't really care too much about raising us.
She just cared about feeding us, you know, eat, eat, eat, eat, eat.
But that was basically daycare.
So my parents left us there until like 6 or 7 p.m.
And they would come pick us up.
And then we would go back home, sleep, wake up, go to school.
And that was it until we moved.
When we moved, we went to daycare instead.
My parents, after a year or so of daycare...
Sorry, how old were you when you moved?
Third grade. At the end of third grade.
I was in place A. I'm in place A. It was where I was for the beginning, until third grade.
From fourth to sixth, I was in place B, and then I moved back to place A for the rest of my time.
So now in place B, no family, no connections, just my mom got a new job, and so my dad was, this is where he got his new job, at a fireplace company, but the time was spent in daycare.
And after a year or so, The daycare people, of course, were even worse than you might think.
They would spell our names wrong.
They would intentionally say our names wrong.
They weren't very kind people at that daycare.
Of course, my mom and dad, being empiricists, actually saw the daycare was going poorly and then pulled us out.
Congratulations, I guess.
How long were you in the daycare for?
At least a year.
I was thinking probably about a year and a half.
Because what happened after that is my dad decided to quit whatever job he was doing and take on a part-time job so he could be at home.
But before that happened, there was a daycare after-school program at school.
And so they just left us there instead until that happened.
And then he was able to stay home.
After that, there was a babysitter.
So you're like nine or so when your dad comes home?
Yes. Nine or ten? Okay, got it.
Yes. And then we moved back to place A where we started from.
And it's about this time where my parents basically just gave up on daycare and stuff because I'm in middle school by this point.
My brother's a year ahead of me and my sister is behind me.
And they just let us come home and just stay at home.
And they're not home yet.
Neither of them are home yet because they're both working together.
And so from seventh grade until I graduate high school, my parents, I'll come home.
I'll be home for a few hours alone.
My parents will come home.
I'll come to the door, say hello, and then go watch TV. And then maybe they'd go bowling or something or do something else.
But from seventh grade onward, my time was just spent going downstairs into the basement and playing video games or talking on the computer.
And then I went to college.
So that's...
Basic gist of it. Okay, so that's your home life.
What about school life? Well, school life is interesting because I don't really have any experiences before third grade.
Nothing to write home about, no bullying, no peer mayhem at school.
I was kind of a loner.
And then we moved to a new cul-de-sac.
So it's like a subdivision.
So there's kids there and we go to school with those kids.
But my parents didn't really like supervise or have any care about the kids we were associating with.
So there were some not so good folks among those kids.
It was a pretty run-down school.
It was pretty dangerous in hindsight because my brother got beat up or got bullied a bunch.
And after that they...
I think that was...
The year that we left. So he got beat up and bullied.
And then they left. Sorry, they left.
What does that mean? My parents decided to move us back.
How did they leave, though?
I mean, did they leave you behind?
Or did you all go? We all moved at once.
Okay, so we left, not they left.
I'm sorry. No, it's confusing.
I'm like, okay, sorry, go ahead.
I will keep it. I will.
Okay. Now back in place A. Middle school.
There's an event that goes on at school where you do class elections, you know, student class president, vice president, and all that stuff.
As a kind of creative, one of my hobbies at the time was making little animations and videos and stuff.
And so there were speeches for this event, or for this election, I guess to call it.
And I made a video And since I was in like a middle grade, there was people below me and people above me.
I made this video and I was a talk of the town.
I was getting, the teachers were, everybody was having a good time.
I got, I don't know, it was kind of crazy.
It was like a movie. People just like laughed at the video and, you know, they thought it was funny.
And I got some friends, I guess, off of that.
But the main thing is all of my peers stopped talking to me after that, you know?
I didn't get any nonsense from anybody.
I didn't get overtly ridiculed.
I didn't get, like, bullied.
From that point on, I was not untouchable, but nobody spoke to me, and I didn't speak to anybody in kind.
I didn't put any effort in myself.
Sorry, so I'm trying to figure out.
So you mostly did video games in the basement.
You did movies and stuff.
Did you have any? And there were some bad kids in the neighborhood and at school, but did you have any friends?
When you were a kid, I'm trying to sort of figure out your social life.
Not in any kind of traditional sense.
We'd have somebody over every so often.
I was in the band program, and it was a pretty close group.
When I was around others, I would be jovial and having a good time, but I didn't have anybody that I could actually confess any feelings to.
I didn't have any relationships.
In high school or even...
But I mean, that's fairly common at that age, right?
I mean, especially men, right?
Boys, we don't have any particularly close emotional relationships at that age, for the most part.
I mean, maybe some people do, but it's pretty rare, so...
Right. Okay, so you didn't have any particularly close friends, and that's all the way through junior high and high school?
Yep, all the way through.
Now, what about dating? Ah, dating.
Well, I didn't have much...
Interest in dating because I was stimulated by video games and at that time, pornography.
Unbeknownst to my parents. There's a story about that.
I kept it a secret since I was like 12 or 13.
And they didn't know about it.
And I told them like two months ago or maybe like six months ago now, probably like in January.
And there was no shock.
There was no awe. It was just like, oh, okay.
You do that? That's interesting.
Because I thought that if they told me, I thought that if I didn't keep it secret, they'd blow up on me.
But back to the main, back to the question.
But you also, I mean, I assume, and I sympathize, of course, I mean, there's this sexual material available to children these days.
It's just appalling. Yeah.
But, I mean, you knew that this was bleeding your desire to date, right?
Absolutely. Okay, so that's kind of a choice you made, which was to view this material rather than to go ask girls out.
Yes. Okay. And this is specifically it even manifests as like back step back step.
I got ahead of myself. So I didn't have any dating prospects.
I probably did, but I didn't jump on any of them.
What do you mean you didn't have any dating prospects?
I mean, I There are probably girls that would have gone out with me, but I didn't see them.
So I'm retracting what I mean by that, because that's just fake.
That doesn't help a lot. What do you mean?
I mean, you just have to go and ask girls out, right?
I mean, there's no magic.
They don't have these numbers of level of attraction written on their foreheads.
You've just got to, you know, grope your way forward and ask the girls out.
You know, you start from the prettiest and you work your way down until there's a girl who'll go out with you.
I heard that, but I didn't hear that back then.
No, but you didn't ask.
You just decided not to ask girls out because you were nervous?
Yes. It was a little bit of that, but also the undercurrent.
The feeling was, I'm fine.
I don't need that. I have my other stimulation.
I felt, looking back on it, my feeling was, hey, I get my stimulation from The stuff I do at home, I don't need that.
I don't need to go date. I don't need that.
Now, did you genuinely believe that?
Like, this is great, this is healthy, this is the way to be, this is the thing to do?
Absolutely not, because I did wind up in my senior year, a decade ago, going out.
With somebody in the sense that it was an online thing.
So she was far away. It was a distance thing.
I mean, that's nonsense.
Except that, you're right, it wasn't.
But I worked up the money and I got a plane ticket.
I got her a plane ticket.
So we had a date.
We had like two weeks together.
Sorry, and you were how old?
This is 18. I'm 18.
Sorry, so you'd graduated high school, is that right?
Yes, I met her in my senior year of high school online, and we were talking over the computer.
She was from the Midwest.
So I'm on the East Coast and she was in the Midwest.
So it was a substantial distance away.
So this is just a time waster to make you feel like you have a relationship and something's happening.
It's like the Canadian girlfriend.
It's sort of this...
Okay, so sorry, go ahead.
You flew her out? Yeah.
Yeah, I flew her out.
And then a couple months later during September or November, probably around Thanksgiving, she flew me out.
So, and then a month later, you know, she was a woman in going to college, and she broke it off with me in December of my freshman year of college.
So how long did you pretend to go out for?
Since one year prior to that.
Okay, so for a year you kind of thought you sort of had a girlfriend and maybe there was a future, but it's just a way of avoiding asking girls out who are in the vicinity.
Okay, I get all that.
Yep, and also people are like, there were some reactions when I told people.
It was like, oh, that's not real.
I didn't believe him. I didn't listen.
Oh, sorry. Now, not real.
Did they think you were being catfished?
Or it's just like not a real relationship?
I think it was more of the second one.
Not so much the first one.
Some girls in the Midwest go into a different college town.
Yeah, I mean, you're just treading water and kind of killing time, usually.
Yes. And the theme of killing time is kind of persistent here.
And so that was the only relationship you had in your teens, is that right?
Yes, and it was the only relationship.
Did you go to dances? Did you go to social gatherings or parties where there were girls?
Or were you just home for the most part?
No, because I was in college, but college was mostly just...
No, no, in university. Sorry, when you were in high school.
Oh, in high school. In high school, I was around, like I said, the band program.
We had tons of events and tons of things to travel.
I was around it. I had the opportunity.
I was not one for opportunity stuff.
So, I mean, were you aware that you were just scared to ask girls out?
Or were you like, tough guy, don't need it?
Like, what was your perception of why you weren't asking?
I mean, it's not like the girls at band camp are the toughest people in the world to ask out, right?
Well, every time, even back then, And even now, I talk to people.
I get combative.
I get nervous.
I'm not, ugh, I don't want them.
No, no, I mean, this is, I mean, every boy gets nervous asking girls out.
I don't know, I mean, of course you do.
Oh, right. I mean, it's like saying, you know, I go on a rollercoaster and I have trouble napping.
It's like, well, yeah, I mean, of course you gotta nap on a rollercoaster.
That's true. So I don't understand.
Like, of course you get nervous.
I still remember the first girl I asked out.
My heart was pounding. Yeah, I mean, but what's your alternative, right?
Stay home. There's no alternative.
So, you know, we're all the descendants of men who ask girls out.
So we're going to kind of keep it going, right?
I heard that much, yeah.
And I've been told, like, I say I don't know, and I'm told you do know.
No, I'm just, so you were around a lot of girls in the band and other things.
Did you go to high school dances or junior high school dances?
A couple, but I was always like, you know, I never put any effort.
Yeah, so you just didn't ask girls that?
Basically. Okay, yeah.
And you said, I don't need it at some point.
Were you aware at all that you were just kind of, Chickening out in a way.
I don't mean to sound too harsh, but this is a fork in the road that every man has to cross, which is you gotta ask girls out.
I was not aware of anything.
Well, that's giving myself no credit.
I was not aware. This was not something in my It was not in my nicking at all.
I was just- Oh no, come on.
You'd never thought of any girls and ever asking them out.
Like, from the age of 13 to 20, like seven years, bad hormones, you're like, no, I've never, I didn't know.
Come on. You must have thought about asking a girl out at some point in your teenage life.
I definitely thought about asking them out, yes.
But I was satisfied with going home and Yes, I think we know the end of that sentence.
Okay. Yes. Alright, so satisfied you didn't feel bad about it.
Is that what you mean? Not at the time.
Yes, not at the time. So this just seemed like a healthy and sensible course of action to avoid girls and go home to your computer.
Yeah. Okay.
I was just doing it. Did your older brother ask any girls out?
No, and he still hasn't.
He's 30, living with my parents.
And he hasn't had one job in his whole life.
Oh, so he's... Because, you know, the first thing is asking for girls to go out with you.
The second is to ask people to employ you, right?
So I guess he's zero for two.
Okay. Yes.
All right. And did your sister have boys ask her out?
If she did, she didn't make it clear, but she, early on in high school, fell, became...
LGBT kind of dipped out.
Oh, okay. So maybe I was asking her out or something like that.
Yes. That's what I got from her was that she was having these sexual experiences with other girls.
Let's not get into your sister.
She's not here. I was just kind of curious if you had any template for asking people that.
Nope. Okay, so then you go to college and how does that go?
Well, same kind of deal where I'm Blazing my way through it.
Why am I going to college?
Did you say lazing or blazing?
Lazing. The bee would be doing a lot of work in that sentence.
Right. Meandering would probably be a better way to describe it.
Oh, why am I going to college?
Well, I gotta get a degree.
Mom says, okay, I'll go to college.
And I go for an engineering degree because I guess I like video games.
I can make a computer game.
Not wise.
I'm talking to an ex Programmer, developer, entrepreneur here.
And I'm saying, I'm like making light of it.
Because that's what I did.
And so my first semester...
And I'm so sorry to back up for just a second.
Did your parents ever give you any advice or ask you about dating or girls in your teenage years?
Well, you want to hear what the conversations were?
Hey, why don't you just invite a bunch of people over?
So I would appreciate that.
Oh, my apologies. My apologies.
Hey, you is my mom or dad.
Why don't you bring people over?
We're going to go out. You should just bring a bunch of people over.
And this is like, I've been at home for two hours looking at the computer.
I'm like, I don't have anybody to bring over.
And they say, okay. And then they leave.
Right. Okay. I mean, I assume they don't have a very robust social circle themselves, or were they more social?
No, they were similar.
They went out and had small circles.
They had a bowling league and stuff.
Their bowling league is like your band group, right?
Basically. Exactly, yeah.
So you don't have to win anyone over there in the free market of relationships.
It's all just arranged for you by school and band.
Okay, so sorry about that.
So you were saying you were entering through college engineering degree.
Yep, and after my first two semesters, I was on probation because I didn't work hard in school.
I did well enough, and I just didn't know how to study.
I didn't have any motivation to do the work, so I just switched to a psychology degree.
And it actually motivated me a little bit, but at the same time, the degree program was pretty academic.
So by the time I graduated, my prospects were stay in academia or go back home.
I chose to go back home in 2018 when I graduated.
And I could talk specifically about my time in college, but the highlights were that there were three women that I spoke to a couple of times.
Otherwise, I was doing the same thing I was doing at home.
Okay, so you didn't ask any girls out.
And, you know, in a psychology degree, it's not like you are, it's not exactly female unfriendly, right?
Right, exactly.
Okay, so at this point, I did break out a little bit.
So at this point, in your early 20s, you've never really asked a girl out and you've never really gone on a date.
I mean, I guess you flew this girl out or whatever, but not any sort of courtship with a local female, right?
My first real date was when I was 27.
27, okay, got it.
So, was there anything else you wanted to say about your college years?
Just that, you know, there were some women that, around, you know, mid-college, I did start engaging with women, but also just trying to engage, because there was, this is about the time when a general unease started to work its way into my thinking.
I started getting a little bit more nervous.
At what age was this? This is probably like 20, 21, because I graduated when I was 22.
Okay. So probably like junior, senior.
I mean, it's a four-year degree, right?
I was a semester or two behind because I did a major switch, so I had to restart the curriculum.
Okay, so 18 to 19, you're in college, 20, 21, 22...
I graduated in December of 2018.
Okay, all right. It's fine.
Okay, so you got your degree, and then what?
Well, December 2018 rolls around, and I'm like, well, I'm going to go back home.
And I go back home. Okay, I'm finding it a bit disconcerting how you're talking about your life.
Right? Because, I mean, you're depressed and anxious to the point where, you know, death's starting to taste kind of sweet, right, at times.
Yes. And you're like, well, this, and then, whoop, I did this, and then, whoop, I did that, and it's so disconnected.
I don't, you know, the email is very tragic, right, and sad.
Yeah. And you're talking about this like it's half a joke.
That's what I've done, man.
I don't know any other way.
Can you stop doing that, please?
Because it's weird, right? I'm not saying you're weird.
I'm just saying that the mournfulness, the tragedy of the email, and then, well, I figured I'd do this, and then I just went home, and it's like, okay, what the heck is going on here?
here. Are you sad or not?
Oh.
Yeah.
You know, I mean, if you want to put, you know, false bravado on stuff, you probably need to talk to someone else because I don't really do that, Because I'm looking for the honesty, right?
Right. I mean, your life's a wreck.
Yeah, it is. So, maybe not the, hey, and then I just, hey, I'll go home, and, you know, like, what do you do?
Because I was like a sort of circus performer who's sawing his own leg off.
Yeah. Yeah.
That's the feeling. Okay, so, yeah, don't do that, please.
I'm begging you, because it's just too strange, right?
I don't...
Well... It's pretending to someone that you have full range of motion when your bones are sticking out the break, right?
Yeah. I'm fine.
Let's go play basketball. It's like, bro, you're half bleeding out.
No, no, I'm good. Walk it off.
I'm good. I'm fine.
I'm good. No.
That's how I learned. Sorry, that's what?
To get any kind of affection from my parents, I had to.
I had to do this.
I don't just not have any relationships.
Okay, so let's say that's all true.
You haven't mentioned anything like that yet, right?
You just said that they came home at 6 or 7 o'clock at night, said hello and went to watch TV, right?
So you haven't mentioned anything about trying to get affection for your parents by being completely emotionally disconnected and pretending to be the opposite of how you feel.
So that's kind of news for me.
And secondly, if you know that, you're responsible for not doing that.
True. Right? So if you say, well, I know, I had to put on a clown show to get any kind of positive feedback from my parents, and it's like, so then you're responsible for not putting on the clown show.
Because otherwise, you're treating me like your parents.
Like, you're treating me as if I'm your neglectful parents.
Right. And if you treat people like the people you hate, you will have a tough time connecting.
Like, if I treated every woman like my mother...
I'd have a pretty tough time falling in love, wouldn't I? And so if you're going to treat me like you have to put on a weird clown show in order to connect with me, then you're treating me like you're bad parents, right?
Like I'm your bad parent.
And if you're treating everyone like they're child abusers, and in my view, your parents were child abusers because they neglected their children.
So if you're going to go around the world treating people like they're child abusers, you're not going to get any friends, right?
Makes sense. Okay, so I'm not your parents, right?
And I don't want you to put on a show.
We're not here to pretend that everything's fine, right?
Because that's kind of weird, right? That is the old thing, like going to the doctor because you're in agony and then saying, no, I feel fine.
In fact, I've never felt better.
I feel robust and strong and healthy.
And then your doctor's like, well, then why did you call me and say there was an emergency?
That's true. Okay.
So, sorry to be harsh.
I'm just trying to get to the facts and I don't want you to treat me like your parents, obviously.
So, let's go on.
You moved back home after your degree and if you could tell me what's going on there.
Firstly, I appreciate the feedback.
Don't worry about being harsh.
It helps to wake me up.
Get me out of that. And thanks for keeping me honest.
So, I moved back home in 2018 and By this point, my dad had some illness.
His legs were giving out.
He's diabetic. Is that due to obesity?
No, actually.
Specifically, he's diabetic, so the blood sugar is a problem, but he had a genetic condition or some kind of onset condition that was not really related to the diabetes, but the diabetes didn't help.
The point is he lost a foot.
He lost one of his feet.
But he's a normal, healthy body weight.
Well, and I'm obviously no expert in diabetes, but if he is diabetic and knows he's diabetic or has those symptoms, was this not something, and I don't know, so, you know, educate me.
Is this something that could have been avoided with closer monitoring?
No, his bones, the veins and arteries in his legs were calcifying.
There was no blood flow going to them, and so any wound that he had on his foot would just stay infected.
So they tried, like, opening up the arteries.
They tried... Oh, okay. So he was in getting treatment.
It's just bad dice.
Okay, got it. Bad dice.
That's what it was. And then the other foot goes.
So he's got half of two feet.
He has one half of one of them.
But he's got prosthesis now.
It's been... Four or five years since that happened.
And so, you know, he's been up and about.
But at the time, you know, I stayed home to take care of my dad from 2018 onward.
Sorry, what was his history with exercise?
Because from what you said, he works in an office and comes home and watches TV. So did he play sports?
Did he work out? Did he go to the gym?
Did he exercise at all? I couldn't get him to exercise now.
I couldn't get him to exercise then.
When he was younger, he was a manual labor guy, but now he was trending always towards being a couch potato.
And none of my None of my protests were ever taken into consideration.
And again, I have no idea whether exercise would have helped.
In general, I think exercise helps as a whole.
So I don't know.
It's my belief that it might have, but given what happened post-calcifying...
No, no, no. I'm talking about when he was younger.
No, no, no. He was like a football player.
He was a baseball player. He and my uncles were, like, up until like 15, 20 years ago, or more like, yeah, 20 years ago, they were very active.
Oh, so he was active throughout the early part of your childhood?
Yes. He was, like I said, he was doing, like, contracting.
He was doing, like, garage doors and fireplaces.
He was out and about He was a manager in the sense that he'd go on site and do some work or order the people around.
He was a manager, not in an office.
So he was moving. It wasn't formal exercise, but he moved for his work.
Yes, yes. And so when this started happening to him, it came as a shock to us because he's been managing the diabetes and taking care of it and doing his steps, but then the wound just didn't heal.
And so after six months of trying to keep it and the toes...
It's gross, but it was bad.
I got it. So it may or may not have helped, and certainly once the calification stuff happens, again, I'm no doctor, so I'm just curious always how much of lifestyle affects people's medical issues, but If it was genetic and, you know, maybe, I mean, I think in general exercise helps as a whole.
I mean, when I was going through my treatment for cancer, I was told many times that one of the reasons I had such a good chance of recovery and why I weathered it pretty well was because of my very robust underlying good health, right?
So I never begrudge working out now because it probably kept me out of the grave.
So, sorry, go ahead.
Oh, I was just going to add on that after this, of course, he, Changed, of course.
I mean, I think anybody who goes through losing an appendage would probably have any trouble going through anything, but he tried to stay active, and he has.
Like I said, he's still out working and doing projects for the house, even though he's home.
It really does look like there wasn't anything that could have been done.
Okay, I'm just curious, and of course, you know, master sympathies for everyone involved.
If it's just bad luck and bad dice, huge sympathies.
So, sorry, go ahead. I appreciate that.
Yeah, it seemed that, regardless, because before the foot stuff, he had a heart attack, and I was like, whatever you're managing, you're not working out, you're not really walking all that much.
He's a big diet soda guy.
Him and my brother won't drink water.
They'll just drink diet soda all day.
This is when I was starting to go to the gym, and I'm trying to get healthy.
This is probably during college when the symptoms kind of started to get real.
And then when I graduated, the foot came off.
But across all of my college time, when I would contact them, it'd be like contacting a brick wall.
I'd say, Hey, Mom, how's it going?
Good. How's dad doing?
Good. You know, the conversations we had were the same conversations over and over again.
Like, specifically when it came to his health, but also in other things.
I'd ask for some help and they'd be like, oh, help you.
I'm sorry to interrupt, but so your father started exercising more or moving more after his foot and a half amputation, is that right?
Yes, yeah, yeah. And has he had more of these calcification issues since he started exercising?
Has he had more calcification?
No, but the blood flow to the legs is still bad.
The veins are still constricted, so he has to be really careful about getting a wound on those legs, otherwise it might Do what the last one did and, like, rot out.
So he wears, like, a bunch of protective layers on the amputation spots to stop that.
Got it. So, sorry. I just want to get back to you from your dad because I appreciate that detour.
I wanted to get a sense of that.
So, okay. So you've moved back home after college.
Your dad's sick. And then what?
Well, I guess kind of...
Pardon my language.
I guess kind of screw around.
I guess kind of fuck around for a little bit.
Which is to say, I'm at home.
And I'm on a break from college.
And my one month off turns into two months off.
Turns into three months off.
Turns into four months off.
And then I'll get an idea that I want to go work somewhere.
So I get the idea that I want to get a part-time job or a full-time job.
So I just get in a car and drive over to my local restaurant.
And I get a part-time job there.
I'm more than qualified.
I was looking for jobs for psychologists, but I couldn't find one, so I could settle with the...
Well, but you're not a psychologist with a four-year degree.
That's just the beginning, right?
You've got to get your master's, maybe your PhD, you've got to be mentored, you've got to get past the certification exams, right?
So, you know, you're talking, you know, five to ten years past undergrad at a minimum, right?
Yeah, there's an entire track.
There's, you know, there's like...
In college, I didn't partake in any internships.
I didn't build a network up.
I just went to school, studied, passed my classes, and then went home.
Okay, so you couldn't really get a job in psychology as far as I understand it.
Absolutely. With an undergrad degree, I'm certainly no expert, but it's tough.
Okay, so you work in a restaurant, part-time, and then what?
Yep. About four or five months into my shift there, COVID happens, and they shut down.
So then I'm at home again during the lockdown.
A few months into the lockdown, I get a job.
I got one.
I got one.
But it was pleasant to get something, but I went to the local college, and the local college had a job as a convenience...
They have a little walk-in convenience store thing.
It was like a pod thing, but it was a pretty big-sized shop.
I went there for... Six months.
And there was a mask rule there.
Sorry, doing what? Like cashier?
Oh, a clerk. Cashier, stocking shelves.
Okay, so that's like a 14 or 15-year-old kid's job, right?
Yes, yes. And you're 24, 25?
24 at this time.
Okay, did you ever have any concerns that this was all just dead-end crap?
I did because at this time I was also going...
I also was interning at a law firm.
I took my LSAT. I was like, oh, what do I want to do?
Here's the thought process, really.
What do I want to do?
Lawyer sounds good. All right, I'll go take the LSAT. And I do a week of studying, and I pay for the LSAT test.
And I swear well.
Let's just say I swear well.
And I'm like, okay.
I need some recommendations. I mean, you've gone engineer, psychology, and now law.
So why did you want to be a lawyer?
I'm not saying you didn't. I'm just curious why.
I didn't want to be a lawyer.
I was just looking for something that would...
At the time, I was rationalizing it as what would make me the most money.
I wanted money.
I guess. I don't...
And are you still living at home through this period?
No. No, no, no, no, no.
A year ago, I made some moves, and now I'm out on my own.
Sorry, a year ago? Yes, a year ago.
So that's not what I was asking.
I said during this period, during the period that you were working at the convenience store.
Right. I was at home.
It was like... Okay, so you weren't home until last year.
Yes. And we're talking about your mid-20s here, right?
Yes. Okay, so that's completely misinterpreting what I'm saying, unless you misheard me.
I did. My apologies.
No, that's fine. That's an interesting thing, though, right?
Because, basically, you lived at home for, like...
What, three or four years after?
Six years. No, in total, three or four years after you did the restaurant COVID, one stimmy check, convenience store, LSAT, right?
So you lived at home for years after this, right?
Yes. And your brother was still living at home, still is, right?
Mm-hmm. Okay. All right.
So LSAT, and then what?
I went to go intern at a law firm, and I... I did that for six months, and I realized I didn't like law that much.
And they also, you know, it wasn't a good place.
I didn't like being a lawyer, so I nicked that.
And I decided to give myself a timetable where if in one year I didn't accomplish At the time, I was bouncing between, oh, I want to be an artist, I want to be creative, I want to do something.
If I'm not making money in a year, I'll move out.
So this is 2021 into 2022.
And it was about as vague as that.
I'm not leaving anything out of that little promise that I made to myself.
That is just what it was.
So what do you do with all the time when you're not working?
Same thing I was doing in high school and college stuff.
Same thing. You mean like video games and stuff?
Yeah, there'd be pangs of like, oh, I should be doing something else and I'd get really nervous and I'd feel depressed.
I'd feel depressed, obviously, for reasons that are pretty clear in hindsight, but Yeah, the same thing.
So, I mean, how bad is your parents' relationship?
Because there's one reason why parents don't encourage kids to leave the nest, right?
And the main reason is, don't leave me alone with someone I'm not particularly close to.
Yeah, it's part of my laughing there, but this is a question that I've tried to Grapple with, but I just feel like I don't have the perspective to say it outright.
But when we were kids, it was a lot of just come do this, do that.
Not yelling specifically, but more like yelling across the house.
If somebody needed something, they would just be on the couch and yell from the couch.
And I'd be up in my room downstairs so they'd have to yell loud.
And the communication was always very confrontational.
It was always like, well, you don't, you don't, nobody ever listens to me.
You never, like, this is them talking to each other, but also when I would talk to my dad and he would talk to me, he'd freak out, I'd freak out, mom would freak out, my brother would freak out.
I'm not sure what you mean by freak out.
Well, if something goes wrong, I guess the best way to describe my mom is as a hypochondriac, the maternal worry on On crack, I guess.
It's like, I can't do anything without her squirreling her way.
Sorry, what do you mean you don't worry on crack? She handed you over to daycare teachers, to people who were running summer camps.
You were home alone at a tender age with your brother and sister.
I don't understand the worry thing.
Don't women who worry don't do that kind of stuff?
I'm sorry if I'm confused.
I'm missing something obvious. But if you could explain that or square that circle for me, I'd appreciate it.
The fuck does she care about? Not worry about us.
Not worry about us, though.
It wasn't... I wouldn't call it worry about us, though.
I would call it more worry about...
Oh, don't do that. Don't do that.
Don't do that. That's a bad idea.
Do this instead. Do this instead.
Okay, so that's not about you, right?
Is it? I'm...
It's hard for me to swear away because she would say that, but then I would...
I'm trying to find...
Let me think of a good example, if you don't mind me.
So... I can't think of a solid example of that point.
So she's like a lot of women that are anxious about the immediate and don't have any developed sense of danger for the long term.
So she manages spikes of anxiety in the moment.
But doesn't particularly care whether her children fail at launching.
Yes. So, yes, I get it.
I get it. Yes.
The example, I thought it was just a very recent one when I began to talk to them, when I confronted them.
I tried a couple of times to talk, just ask questions.
But at least until the last time we talked, my mom and dad both took my My criticisms as personal attacks.
Oh, we did the best, you know, you've heard it all a million times.
And that's my fault for asking, but I just want to make sure we stay up to the present.
Okay, so you quit the law firm because you don't like working in the legal field, and then what?
Oh, then you stay home for a bit, and then you're not making any money, you're not getting anywhere, so then a year ago you move out, is that right?
Yes. Interspersed in all this time, I was active.
A lot of my time was taken up by political activism.
I was all over the place.
I was a chauffeur and I was helping people out, driving to locations and setting up engagements and stuff for politics.
I won't go any further than that.
But this carried me up until the past of 2021 into 2022.
And I also started going to...
It was around that time I also started...
I was born Catholic.
So I started going to church again.
But there was a Latin Mass.
It was one of those traditional Latin Masses.
Sorry, when did you fall away from Catholicism?
Oh, we were never...
We were Christmas, Easter-type Catholics growing up.
There was never anything serious.
My mom and dad would just go every so often.
I came back into it simply because I was just reading in college.
You know, getting, you know, politically involved.
I have to interact with people.
So I kind of wanted to shore up my knowledge.
And I'm like, oh, well, the Catholic Church seems to at least have a better grasp on morality than others.
And they have a long history.
And I'm Catholic. Why don't we try this out?
Stick with that. And...
And there were no girls in your 20s that you wanted to ask out too much, right?
There were. There were.
There were a couple of times, but I was either rejected or I discovered that it would not have been in my best interest.
I still had a little bit of standards at that time in that there was one girl that I was talking to, one woman actually, she was in like some kind of weird, you know, we were talking for a while, but she was in some kind of weird like polycule thing where it was her and one guy and this guy had like six other women.
A polycule? What was that?
Yeah, I'm not sure if that's the right word, but she was like, oh, my boyfriend goes with other women.
Oh, so she was like a harem or something.
Yeah, that's a better way to describe it.
Because there's one guy, and he's got a harem of like six women.
And I was like, oh...
Okay, so you were rejected by that woman?
No, I didn't want any...
I chose to have part of that. Oh yeah, you chose to stay away from that.
Okay. Right. Alright.
There was another woman in...
In my psychology class that I started speaking to and she kind of, I don't want to say freaked out, but it was a very explosive reaction to me speaking to her.
I said, hello. I sat next to her and I said, hello.
And she's like, look, I'm not interested in talking to you.
I'm not interested in being in a relationship with you.
Please don't talk to me. And I'm like, okay.
I never talked to her. That was my first, that was like my second conversation with her.
So you're having trouble reading people.
Well, her, yes, but then there was another woman.
What about the polyamorous girl?
She's got to have stink freak coming off her like a roadkill on a hot highway.
True. Let's just say, I'll give you that.
I don't have any counterpoint to say, so it's very likely that's the case because the third woman in college rejected me.
We had gone out Basically on like a group date.
Or it was like a group get together.
And she asked me to drive her home.
And we're sitting in the car.
Like it's like midnight.
You know the sunroof's down.
We're sitting in the car talking to each other.
And we're talking about our lives.
And then I don't remember exactly what happened.
But I remember mentioning the idea of us getting into a relationship.
Not sure if this was a good strategy or not.
I'm fucking blind here.
But I said that. I said, like, well, why don't we stick together?
Why don't we get together?
And she's like, well, actually, I gotta go.
I'll talk to you later. I'm not really into...
I don't want to be around guys right now.
I'm in a weird spot.
See you later. And I see her the next day.
She's surrounded by a gaggle of goons, you know, just like a group of guys.
And then she stops texting me after that.
My guess would be that she'd been the victim of some sexual aggression or sexual assault or rape or something like that and was just messed up about that stuff.
I mean, I don't know, but that would be my guess.
If I had any empathy, if I was feeling any empathy at that time, I can't remember it because I was mostly just in I-want-to-get-something-I-want mode, kind of selfish.
Yeah. I don't remember really conceiving even of that.
Any idea like that was not in my head at that time.
And you're at what age?
This is in your early 20s?
This is probably near the end of college, so 21 or 22.
Okay, got it. All right, so let's get to the present time.
Well, present time is when things have, I'd say gone well.
So, present time, gone.
Better. This is, well, we'll save my judgments for later.
Let's just talk fast.
So, I was Catholic.
I started being Catholic at the end of college, or sorry, around the end of COVID, around the political time, I think, 2020, 2021, to the beginning of 2023.
I'm still going to Latin Mass.
I'm a diligent Catholic.
I'm participating in the role.
I'm doing all the stuff.
And it's near the end of Lent of 2023, and there's a woman there who, I was like, she's kind of pretty.
You know, I actually had like a twinge of, I kind of want something.
Wait, she's kind of, let me talk to her.
And there's like a get-together after the Mass, and we're talking.
And, oh, she's laughing.
Oh, we're laughing. We're having a good conversation here.
Oh. Shoot.
I feel like I'm having a closer, a nicer conversation than I've had in a long time.
There's a big event the week after this.
Oh, and it's a dance and everybody's going to be there.
It's like a cross parish dance thing.
So I go there and she's there.
And I'm like nervous as I'll get out.
I'm nervous as I'll get out. And I see her and I'm like, I got to do it.
I walk up and I ask her to dance and we dance.
And then there's a little get together.
After the dance, we're having a good time.
And then there's little, it's like a bar, little party at midnight after this dance.
And I guess something comes over me and I'm like, I got to ask this girl out on a date.
I don't even know how I'm going to do this.
I guess I did it.
And I'm like, would you like to go on a date with me?
And she said, yes. Now it wasn't like she was like excited or I'm like, she seemed kind of ambivalent to the idea of a date.
In hindsight, she was like, sure.
I got in my car and was like, oh yes!
Finally! A date.
And then I go to this little coffee shop thing.
And I don't mean to be funny when I say it, but it's just, this was probably the worst, one of the worst dates.
Sorry, you took her to a coffee shop?
She chose a coffee shop.
Oh, so you said, where do you want to go?
And she said, I just want a coffee.
Yeah. Yeah, that's not a great sign.
Okay. Well, there's a lot of bad signs here in hindsight.
But yeah, so the day comes around and I'm a nervous wreck.
First off, I'm a nervous wreck.
I don't know what to say. I'm talking about, I spent an hour sitting in across from this woman talking about the weather.
And cars and politics, not really igniting any kind of emotional connection whatsoever.
I feel like I'm stuck.
And I feel her tuning out.
I see the feedback that she's giving me.
I'm just like, oh, no.
Oh, no. And I could go into details.
I mean, that's as much detail as I think I can go into.
I just got to this date. I looked bad.
I sounded bad. I was really nervous.
But, you know, it was...
For all intents and purposes, my first date, I don't like to beat myself up too much.
And you're 28 at this point?
I'm 27. 27.
Okay, got it. And so I'm like...
It was like Simpery 101.
Let's just put it that way.
You know, Twitter Simp or...
For all the hot shot stuff I'd say about...
Sorry, but I know what you mean in general, but I'm not sure how you're using the term specifically.
In the way you think, I mean, it's like the generic, like, oh, she's giving me attention.
Oh, I feel like I got really nervous when she...
I was just not a confident.
There was no confidence.
There was no competence. There was no positive energy exuding from me.
In hindsight, I felt like I was like a big bundle of anxiety and neuroticism.
And... This is at a time when I hadn't talked to my parents about anything.
This is me basically immediately after not going to law school.
So, you're talking to me right now.
This is a year ago.
Imagine you're like an unprepared Catholic woman getting this thrown at you.
Oh, this being like how you were before with the jokey-jokey stuff?
Exactly. All of the energy that for the past hour, without any of the Ability to notice that I'm doing it too, and even I didn't notice it.
Okay. Or rather, I persisted in it.
Sorry, I get it. So how did the date end it and she didn't want to have another date?
Is that right? Yep.
I get a message from her that says, that's cool.
She says, you're fun to talk to, but let's just not go forward with this.
But I continue to...
You weren't real with her though? Exactly.
You didn't say, I mean, it's crazy.
This is my first date, believe it or not.
I'm really nervous. I find you really attractive.
Oh, I did that. Oh, you did?
I did that. No, yeah.
I said, this is my first date.
I'm really nervous. And she's like, that's cool.
That's cool. Yeah, I did all that.
I thought, no, yeah.
I said, oh, this is my first date.
I'm kind of anxious and I'm kind of jittery.
And, you know... I'm not really sure exactly what to do.
You know, I showed that.
So I did show that. And did you do any research ahead of time on what to talk about on dates or how to have a date?
Or did you watch videos or read books or anything like that?
I did. I did. But it went poof.
It was not practiced.
It was not trained. I defaulted into...
Oh, you just like watched a bunch of stuff and thought it would stick?
Yeah, that's a German and I think I can speak German.
Okay, got it. Bingo.
Exactly. That's exactly what it is.
It was just pram it, just pram it.
But I also, I underestimated, you know, like if I'd have thought I would have, in hindsight, I didn't do enough preparation.
Let's just say I didn't do enough preparation.
Yeah. Well, I mean, you didn't do enough preparation for 14 years.
No, I mean, I'm serious, right?
Yes. I mean, or, you know, 12 years, or like 15 to 27, or whatever, right?
So you were, you know, well, well, well over a decade behind the curve and you think you can catch up by watching a couple of videos, right?
I agree with, I agree with that.
It's just that I wasn't thinking that at the time.
My idea was... No, I mean, sometimes we just have to learn by experience, so, okay.
So she doesn't want to go on another date?
Yes. I guess we can fathom, and then what?
Um, well, the date kind of set off some alarm bells before and after the date.
I was like, something in me just turned over.
I can't live like this anymore.
Sorry, sorry. What was your work situation when you went on this date?
It was nothing.
It was just happenstance that I got this date.
Nothing had changed. So, hang on.
How old was this woman, roughly?
27. So this woman's 27 and you want to go on a date with her when you're unemployed.
Were you still living at home? I was.
Oh my God, man. What are you kidding?
No, really? I did that.
I did that. Okay.
Why would anyone go for an unemployed guy with no work history to speak of who's living at home at 27 and has never been on a date before?
You know, that question popped into my mind immediately, or a few days after she rejected me, or during the time, during the whole process.
Yeah, I mean, maybe if you're 22 or 21, you know, she's got some time to kill, but she's looking for marriage, and how are you going to support a family?
How are you going to, yeah, I mean, how are you going to be the leader of the household?
I mean, you're a broke guy with no job.
God knew then, and I guess maybe he knows now.
I don't know. But that was what turned over.
I'm like, holy shit.
How long have you been listening to what I do?
I've been listening to you since...
When you were on YouTube, I was listening for a little bit.
But I got turned on to you again by my therapist.
To listen to actual content.
So I've been listening to you legitimately since August.
Oh, like your therapist said, listen to this guy online?
Yeah. Okay, that's fine.
I'm not going to get into the details, but okay.
So you listened to me for a while back at the YouTube days, and is that when you emailed me?
No, no, no, no, no. I sent you...
I only really got...
He suggested that I send you a message.
I sent you a message a month ago, or a month and a half ago.
Right. And then I sent you another one one month ago, because I waited a couple of weeks.
Got it. So this is all very recent.
Like, I haven't been listening, you know, finished UPB. I've been going through all your, like, calling shows, history of philosophy.
I've gone through all your real content over the past year.
And have you ever floated around the manosphere or sexual dynamics or sexual market value?
Yes. Sexual market value.
I was part of the political sphere I was in.
You know, there's the conflicts between these red pill guys and the womanizers and the traditional capital guys.
Okay, so you knew that women are looking for a man with competence in the material realm and resources and so on, right?
I believed it was ego.
I believed that my charm would carry me.
That was it. Whatever charm I felt like I had, I hadn't gotten any feedback to the negative.
I felt like I would be fine.
Pride and vanity is a sin, right?
Yes. Okay.
At the time... But not for you.
...wasn't in my conception. Not for you.
True. Yes. Everything was for other people.
I am me. Everything.
Exactly. Everything for others, but never for me.
I did a lot of projecting, too.
There's a lot of connections I've made to that.
So what's happened over the last year?
Well... So, after this date, during this date, I flip over.
I say, I gotta get out of here.
I can't live in this house. I have no money.
I have no job. I have no friends.
Panic. Panic murder.
Panic moment. It's chaos.
I'm like, okay, I gotta get a job.
Luckily, there's a couple of job opportunities, one given to me by a guy at church, and another given to me just through my due diligence.
And I landed an office job making a good salary.
By the way, this is like June of 2023.
So I choose between that.
I choose that job, working with the guy from church.
And a week later, once I get my first paycheck, I'm like, I'm leaving.
Mom and dad, I'm out of here.
I don't know what I got to do. I got to get out of here.
And they're winning me against it.
They're like, no, you can't go out on your own.
Stay home. Save the money.
Don't go out. I'm like, no, no, no, I'm leaving.
I couldn't. I was being compelled by forces that I didn't understand at that moment.
I was just, I gotta get out of here.
Well, they're called rebels, but okay, go on.
Yes. Yes.
I have no more knowledge about them now, but at the time, it was like, I gotta get out.
So I get an apartment. I get good rent.
I'm in that apartment right now, and then December comes around.
I lose that job. I lose that job.
How? It was the same thing with first date.
First job. I didn't have the work ethic or the discipline.
I didn't even know what a PIP was.
So when they PIP me, I was like, oh, this is fine.
I didn't even tell my therapist.
What? A PIP. It's called a performance improvement plan.
Okay, so I'm not too crazy.
Apparently... So you guys...
People thought you were doing a bad job, and they said you're going to have to improve, or you're gone.
Or we'll fire you. Okay. And how long into the job did you have this PIP? Or how long into the job did you have problems?
It was... It was a little less than a month.
Wait, a month into the job, they're telling you you...
No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, no.
It was from the end of the job.
So I lost the job in December.
From the beginning of December, I was...
I got pipped. Okay.
So from June until November.
So June to the beginning of December, you're, you know, and for the first month or two, they're like, you know, maybe he's just learning the ropes and so on.
And then you get this pip and then you're gone by the end of the month.
Yes. Okay. So what did you not do that they wanted you to do?
I... To describe it simply, I guess, there was a whole bundle of bad behavior that caused it.
Little stuff like putting responsibility for some of my tasks on others.
What do you mean? I don't know what that means.
Well, if I did something, I would take credit for things I did well, but I really was not trying to do this, and I hope...
Forget the intentions.
Just tell me what happened. Sorry.
I apologize. I would take credit for things that I thought were good, but when things were bad, I would say this is not my responsibility.
Likewise, also, there's the work.
We were a salaried position, but we were expected to put in a lot of extra hours outside of work.
I didn't understand that at the time, and so, like, two months in, I'm falling behind.
I catch back up because I pull a couple of all-nighters.
But then I'm being judged on coming in on time and also staying for extended periods of time well into the night.
Um, but also, um, not, one of the, another thing was that they, uh, I was still asking a lot of questions two or three or four months into the job.
They mentioned that I should have learned quicker.
And that when it came to holding response, one of the main things on the PIP was just holding responsibility for the work.
That was the real big thing.
So just not blaming other people when things go badly?
Yes. Okay. So, did you work very hard?
You said you didn't take it very seriously, is that right?
They said it would seem like that.
Okay, so did you move heaven and earth to try and deal with the issues, or did you just kind of continue and change a bit, or how did it go?
Near the beginning, when I realized I was causing trouble for them, I really did.
That's when I started pulling these all-nighters.
But then there just came a moment when I was sitting in the office and I could just tell that in the next week or so that I was going to be gone.
And that's because you did the all-nighters and then weren't coming in the next day?
Or what do you mean? I couldn't tell you exactly what the reason for the vibe shift was.
That's a fun way to say it.
But I couldn't tell you exactly what the reason for the shift and the perspective was.
It was just... They had given me a talk.
They said, you know, it doesn't seem like you're really trying all that hard.
It doesn't really seem like you're really interested in learning.
And I said, I am.
I'm working. And then I pulled the all-nighters.
And I got another talk like a week later where they said, you're really going to need to step your game up and get these projects done.
And because I was at this point, I was still shouldering, you know, Work was getting passed to me because I was doing it quickly, but there was more work on my plate than I had had a week or two before, even though the due dates and people were coming in and out.
But then I'm like, I got it.
I can do it. And I'm looking at what I'm doing.
I'm trying to optimize my time.
I'm trying to figure out what exactly I'm doing wrong.
I'm like, guys, can you tell me exactly what I'm doing wrong?
And they say... Sorry, you didn't know what you were doing wrong?
Not in any reason.
Not in any metric that I could...
Like, okay, I'm doing my work on time.
My projects are getting completed.
What is the problem? Oh, so it wasn't that your numbers were down, that everybody else was producing 10 widgets a day, but you were producing 5?
That is the only thing that makes sense to me.
Because my numbers weren't down.
The sheets they were talking about were like, You don't seem very interested in the work.
You don't seem like you're really compelled to keep going.
I'm like, you're giving me tasks, I'm doing the tasks.
And then I'm also having to bring on other people's tasks, too.
I'm having to go over and teach other people how to do this job, and I'm also having to do my work.
And then two more times they talk, or another time they talk to me.
Sorry, you sound really annoyed here.
I am.
And so what specifically were you annoyed at?
I tried to... I thought I was doing a good job.
you So when they fired me, I was like, I thought I was doing a good job.
I don't know what you guys are on.
I was doing a good job.
Okay, you know that that doesn't matter, right?
Like, what you think you're doing doesn't matter.
What matters is what your boss thinks you're doing because he's representing the customers.
So it matters that your boss thinks you're doing a good job.
Now, when you got the job, did you have performance goals?
Like you have to do X by whatever, X units a week.
So you had performance goals.
And why did you have to pull all-nighters?
I assume it's because you weren't meeting your performance goals, right?
No. Long story short, it's a construction site.
And so we were responsible for the process of making sure that the subs got paid.
The contractors would get paid.
And how you do that is you get the job.
We're responsible for putting the offers together.
And so depending on the amount of offers that we get, we have to put together these very complicated order sheets and material orders and numbers.
And stick them all in a sheet and turn them over quickly for each client as they come in.
And there's three of us, four of us, and this is a company that covers the entire eastern seaboard, the entire northeast of the United States in terms of the work they do.
And so we're being paid salary, but for the workload to hit the numbers, I guess, we were just kind of getting...
At the time, I didn't ask, but we were just kind of getting pushed.
We were just kind of pushing.
I didn't know anything about what goes on after I do my job, after I put together my proposal and send it off.
Because the proposal gets checked by the guy atop of me, and it gets sent off to who knows where.
All I know is that we're constantly getting work, we're constantly getting requests for bids, And none of the work is coming into...
I mean, I'm working as fast as I can while keeping it accurate.
I tried working faster, but then my boss got on me and said, there's a lot of errors on here.
What happened? I'm like, I tried to speed it up and see if I could fix it.
That didn't work. Let me go back and redo it.
And so my speed, the speed with which I was doing these things, didn't let me go fast enough.
So I had to...
Basically, I guess it's...
An affirmative response to your question.
I guess the performance goals were higher than I could handle on the normal 8 to 5.
So I stayed.
I stayed. I stayed later to make sure that the work would be on time.
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that that was appreciated to some degree, but it also does burn you out for the rest of the week, right?
I, at some point, I would agree that I would feel burned out, but I still came in anyway.
I mean, I didn't have, yeah.
You know, one day...
I mean, maybe it wasn't a fit for you.
Like, maybe they're just looking for a different type of person.
Sometimes jobs just don't fit the personality.
So maybe it just wasn't a great fit for you.
Right. My...
My indignant response to when I got fired has given way a little bit more to recognizing the responsibility that I had and also, like you said, the fact that it's not really a good fit.
Well, they could also have been exploiting people, right?
They could have had a buy and burn mentality.
Like, we're going to pay salary, we're going to demand, in a sense, 12 hours a day, we're going to pay for seven and a half, and they just burn people out.
Yeah. In which case, you know, that's not a great place to work, right?
I'm sure your mom had some of those jobs as a coder, too, where it's just like, this has got to get done, and here's some pizza, and we're here all night, and it's okay once in a while, but it's not a great way to do business in the long run.
Well, I wish I could say that I could give her that benefit of the doubt, but she did not.
She's always been in kind of like a comfy, back-end, kind of presenter, marketer-type role, doing only the minimal...
Oh, she doesn't do that much coding.
Yeah, she's in Ruby or something like that, and that's it.
Okay, so you got fired.
Sorry, I just want to make sure we stay with you.
So you got fired end of December, and what's been happening over the last six or seven months?
Well, I had a store of funds saved up, and I decided...
Sorry, from what? I had a store of funds saved up from work.
From this job? Yes, from this job.
For six months. My rent was low, and salary was good, and so I was able to save up a good store of money.
Okay. And so I had at least two months without doing any kind of credit, without doing anything that I could burn.
Like, aside from rent, right?
I had enough money to spend, you know, a month or two months or even three months if I was getting paid.
I decided to go for entrepreneurship.
Okay. Based on what experience?
I hear the incredulity in your voice.
Well, based on what knowledge, what experience, what, I mean...
I'm gonna just be a surgeon.
Hey, I've cut bread before.
My gusto! My can-do attitude.
That was really all I had.
Alright. Here's where you proved my skepticism wrong because you're now a zillionaire.
Anyway, go on. Yes, here's where I proved it.
Here's where I proved you completely right.
Sorry for the laughing, but the entrepreneurship, as it turned out, was Turns out I can make calls on the phone and I can close decently well with just a little bit of sales experience that I had.
But one thing I did was I started networking with local business owners and I jumped into a web design business in February.
It was a digital marketing thing, but also website creation, social media management and all that stuff.
The guy was my business partner that I was talking to.
You know, he's a development guy, but he's also got a family.
He's not really working full time.
And so I jumped on with him.
I had money and I had the time.
And we started getting some work.
You know, $500 bill to me.
You know, the websites are pretty cheap stuff.
You know, it's local businesses.
But anyway, I do websites.
How did you get all these skills?
He taught me. He taught me specifically web design, and I just self-taught myself digital advertising.
I guess I was able to get good results for people.
But the work, the cold calling, and the, you know, I mean, unfortunately, that's kind of what I might have to be doing now.
But I just kind of, on this, I was like, I'm going to sit down, I'm going to learn this, because if I don't learn this, I'm not going to have any money in three months.
So I just put notes to Grindstone on it.
And I just tried to learn how to do it.
Yeah, I mean, so one of the tough things about that kind of business model is if you can learn the work relatively quickly, so can everyone else, including AI. Yes.
And we ran into that.
Or rather, we were going to run into that before I realized that this was a...
Silly idea. I realized how silly it was a month and a half ago.
Sorry, but you won't have money, right?
So you get a $500 project here and there?
Projects here and there, but that was in February and March.
Since then, I've only been making $500 a month.
Oh, gosh. With the prospect of big clients...
I would rather not say.
It's embarrassing. No, no, come on.
Now's not the time. Full-time, full-time.
I was basically going full-time on this, trying to get this, trying to learn and do these websites and stuff for these clients.
So whatever a full-time week is, closer to, you know, I had the locational freedom to work anywhere, but the work was just, there was clients coming in.
So you're making about three bucks an hour.
Basically. Basically working for nothing.
But the prospect being that because there were these clients who were going to sign, but they didn't sign, oh, once they sign on, we're good.
We've got like five things booked up.
Nope. They pushed it back.
The ads aren't going.
Nobody's buying the ads because they don't really need them.
Everybody's managing their own social media.
They don't need that. Nobody's buying.
Nobody's buying what we're selling.
And From that onwards, I've been burning up all of the money that I had left off of that.
Like I said, I had enough to counteract it a little bit, but now we're running into August, and rent's coming due, and I've got enough to pay my rent for this month, or last month.
But this month, I'm going to talk to my guy about this.
Yeah. And that's where I'm at.
Well, there's one more wrinkle in the whole professional life.
I helped this guy with his political campaign.
And he runs a real estate company.
And he's basically paying to train me to be a real estate realtor type guy.
And I got my license and I did the test and all that.
And he's, like, making all these cards, and he's, like, giving me the, he's giving me, like, sales training, like, legit real estate sales training.
But, once again, that just kind of reads to me like entrepreneurship again, and I don't, I mean, at least I'll have somebody teaching me, but that and this, like, this whole, all this is just, I'm not sure.
I'd rather just, you know, just Do a couple things part-time and build my finances back up or something.
But that's the extent of my professional life up to now.
Okay, and you haven't gone out on any other dates since the 127-year-old woman, right?
I've tried. There was actually another woman online.
The beginning of this year.
Since I moved out of my parents' place, I've had more contact with women than I ever had before.
I was on an online relationship again just because I put myself on a dating app, but I didn't live at my location.
I was going everywhere because I felt like I could drive anywhere.
This woman was once again in the Midwest and At this time, I still had the funds, and I had the lively spirit to say, hey, I'm going to drive up, and I'm just going to meet you, and we're going to go on a date, and I'm going to, you know, I'm going to move in with you, you're going to move in with me, because my belief was that...
Sorry, I'm going to move in with you, you're going to move in with me?
Not at the time. I made sure to say, sorry, she said that.
I'm just trying to follow your story, bro.
Sorry, I'm rushing again.
Let me calm down, because this is...
I'm getting heated.
Um... No, that's fine.
Let's talk about you getting heated.
What do you mean? This is so much to cover.
I was talking to this woman, and she's immediately romantic with me, and she's giving me compliments.
She's talking about kissy-boo-boo faces, and this is in January.
So she's kind of desperate? Why is she desperate?
She'd just gone out of a six-year relationship with a guy who wouldn't commit to her.
And I was waxing.
She was my age.
Okay, so she's trying to lock down something before the eggs fade.
Okay. Yes, and I was also waxing philosophical as much as I could about, you know, I was pivoting to trying to be more genuine and have good conversations with people.
Sorry, and how recently had she gotten out of the six-year relationship?
I think it was like she'd been out of it for about...
Six months to a year, if I remember right.
Okay. And so the rapport is initially good, and we have good chats, but then she works.
But she would go ghost for days at a time and respond, and then we'd only have a couple of calls.
I think we spoke maybe once or twice or three times a month.
Oh, God. Okay. So she's obviously fielding a bunch of guys.
Okay. That was my hunch.
And then eventually, I think, beginning of April, she stopped responding.
And that's when I'm like, okay. By that point, I was also quite out of it.
Okay, so I'm looking for philosophically relevant stuff here.
Another, like, a long-distance thing that petered out.
I'm not sure that I want to spend a lot of valuable time on that.
We're done with it. We're done with it.
You know, an hour 35, and we haven't gotten to any actual feedback from me yet.
I will leave it with this.
There's two more things that happened.
The first is that I went to a baptism for a friend, and I met a girl there.
And we hit it off.
And we're driving around.
It's late at night. And we just start making out.
I just started making out with her. She starts making out.
She takes me, pulls me in, and we start making out.
And for the next two days, we're just, no sex, just, you know, just hanging out in the car at night, tops down, you know, looking at the sky.
And then at the end of that time, she's like, I'm not really interested in being with you like that.
Sorry. Because she's And she's talking about the other guys she's talking to.
She's all nervous.
And I'm like, okay.
I don't even want to deal with that.
So I just let her go. I let that go.
I didn't want to bother with that.
And the last thing that happened was that there was one more woman.
This was about three months ago, or two months ago now.
And she, this is the first time I've ever I had to reject somebody before, but she was grossly overweight.
She did not take care of herself.
She was interested in me.
And frankly, I was going to try to make her feel good by going on a date and rejecting her in person or trying to ease the pain of me rejecting her because I'd never rejected anybody before.
But then I got the advice This was also on an app.
Okay, so sorry. So you got matched with the woman who was obese, right?
Yes. Did she contact you?
It was on Hinge.
So it was like... I sent the first message because she looked good in the picture that she had, but then she sent more pictures and she was not accurate.
Not in the scale. You got fat-fished.
Okay. I got fat-fished, yeah.
So, why did you continue talking with her?
I didn't. As soon as I got that information, I talked to...
I got some advice.
Okay. And it was like, you gotta just protect her.
Because you're either gonna waste your time talking to her, and you're gonna like, for what purpose?
Why would you keep talking to her?
Right. I didn't. So, I sent her a message.
I'm like, you know...
I can't go on.
I don't have any interest in continuing the conversation with you, particularly because it was the wait.
And she took it pretty well.
She didn't curse me out or anything.
She's just indignant.
She's like, fine, I'll find somebody else.
Take care. Okay, why are we talking about this?
That was the last experience I had with a woman.
That's it. Sorry. Okay, so I'm saying, like, let's not waste time talking about things that go nowhere, and then you say, this girl, I got fatfished, and the girl, like, why are we talking about this?
I don't know. I don't know.
I'm trying. Oh, did we just lose you?
No, no, no. I'm still here.
I just, you know, something crossed my mind.
And what was that? Anytime I talk to somebody, Steph, I just try to give everything.
I try to talk to everything.
I don't have anybody to share with.
So, even if it's irrelevant, I've never verbalized that to anybody.
Right. So, it's totally novel.
And that's my first guess.
That's my best guess.
It's totally novel, so you just talk.
Yes. Well, sharing the Sharing this information with anybody is novel.
No, no, it's not sharing.
No, what you do is not sharing.
You're just talking. Right.
I mean, you haven't asked me once, how do you want this conversation to go?
Is that too much information? You're not inquiring as to my experience of the conversation.
And it's not a criticism, I'm just sort of pointing it out, right?
It's not upsetting to me, I'm just giving you the feedback, right?
Yes, you are.
I mean, it's trying to drink from a fire hose, right?
Right. And I imagine that that's...
I mean, it comes across as a little selfish, which is that the conversation is for my needs, not mutual benefit.
Yeah, that's close to...
Yeah. And you do have a lot of anger.
Yeah. And I'm not disagreeing with you.
I'm not saying that's bad or anything like that.
But I guess I'm trying to figure out anger at what.
It was kind of murky with the job.
It was kind of murky with some of the girls.
So, what do you think?
I mean, do you think that the assessment of anger is accurate?
I'm not sure. Okay.
I won't go forward with it if you're not sure, because if it doesn't click for you, I'm just trying to feel my way forward.
So if it doesn't click for you, we can move on.
So that's no problem. I don't want to tell you your own experience, of course.
I use anger, but I'm not sure what I'm angry at.
Wait, so sorry, when I say I think you have some anger, and you said, I'm not sure, does that mean you're not sure?
Sorry? I meant that I have anger.
I'm angry and full of despair.
Okay, so what do you think?
Um, when, when I, when I engage in conversation with people, I want something from them.
It's always combat whenever I show up, and I never get what I want.
I'm sorry, but everybody wants something from someone.
That's why we have conversations.
I mean, I'm not sure what the issue is with that.
You know, if I sit down and order a meal from a waiter, I want the meal from the waiter, and the waiter wants the pay and the tip from me, and the restaurant wants to sell me a meal, and I want to eat a meal.
So, conversations are all about mutual exchange of preferences and needs, and that's why we have language, that's why we talk to each other, right?
Okay, so the fact that you want something from people when you talk to them seems perfectly natural to me, but what is it that you mean?
Is that bad? No, it's that I haven't gotten what I wanted any time I've talked to people.
Well, that's because you're focusing on the wrong thing, to be blunt.
Like, now we're shifting to the feedback time?
Yes. So you're all about, what can I get from people?
I need things from people, right?
Mainly, yeah. Okay.
So that's immature bullshit.
Yep. You know, because what is it you should be thinking of if you want to have sustainable relationships?
Mutual benefit. Well, yeah, yeah.
You should be thinking, what can I provide this person?
How is this person going to benefit from being in conversation with me?
But you get kind of glassy-eyed and hollow-voiced and you just talk about yourself.
And then people are like, well, I guess I'm not really needed for this monologue other than as a flesh prop, right? So people feel kind of invisible, right? Because you felt invisible to your parents and then you reproduce that invisibility to others.
Because your parents were never about you and what you wanted. Like the very first thing you told me about your father is he did all these projects and these decks and this then never asked you and you just had to do it. And right. So you were invisible to your parents.
So they didn't think of what was beneficial to you and what you prefer to what you wanted, what would make you happy. Right. Your mom dumped you in daycare.
dumped you in summer camps, and they just would come home and they preferred watching TV to hanging out with you and your brother and your sister and having fun and enjoying your company.
So your parents didn't think about what might be best for you, right?
Yes, but there's a wrinkle to that, and I think it might, maybe it won't change your perspective on things, but they were the kind of parents who would give us whatever we asked for.
They would be like, oh, we did that because we thought it would be fun for you.
Like, for instance, they bought a boat because they thought it'd be fun to go out on boat trips, or we would take trips to places.
I don't know what you're talking about, because the first thing you said, and I'm not accusing you of being contradictory, I'm just telling you why I'm confused.
So I asked, did you ever want to do these projects with your father?
Did you ever want the deck? Then you said no.
Yes. Yeah, they said that.
Hang on. And when your parents came home, would you rather they had played with you, roughhouse with you, played Monopoly with you, gone for walks, played catch or ball or tag, or would you have rather they had fun with you?
I believe that I would have...
Sorry, no, no, no.
This is the time where you're getting feedback, so don't give me any speeches.
Just give me answers. Okay.
Would you have preferred, when your parents came home from work, that they engage with you and have fun with you?
Yes. Okay. You didn't want them to go and watch TV, right?
Yes. Okay.
So, your parents did not do what you wanted and did not inquire as to what you wanted.
So then when you say, well, my parents kept doing things that they would do anything we wanted, I don't understand.
Specifically, if it was, I need to buy it, I want a thing, Ma.
Can we buy this thing? Sure.
It'd be a video game or something.
No, but that's just a way of saying get lost and go play your game.
How is that? I mean, that's your sad substitute for your parents not paying any attention to you.
Right. Okay.
And so that doesn't change.
Okay, so what are we talking about?
What's the wrinkle here? So your parents didn't want to spend time with you, and they bought you stuff so they wouldn't have to spend time with you.
Okay. Okay. That's the feedback.
That's what I needed to hear. Okay.
It doesn't change anything. All right. So your parents did not show interest in you, and they did not think about what was beneficial to you in interacting with them.
And that's the job of the parents, right?
Yes. Okay. So you were ignored by your parents, and so you can't figure out also how to provide value back to your parents.
I've tried. Okay, I get it.
And so you don't know about the exchange of value?
Outside of some of your work, no.
Well, no. That's just watching it.
Or listening to it, I'm talking about.
Okay, so let's go back to the date with the 27-year-old Catholic woman, right?
Yes. It was all about you, in your mind.
Yes. I'm nervous, I'm this, I'm that, and you probably talked a mile a minute, and you could see that she was losing interest, but you just kept plowing on and so on, right?
Mm-hmm. Right, so you didn't sit there and say, how is her life going to be better for her interaction with me?
How is her life going to improve?
Because that's what dating is, right?
Dating is, oh, my life's better after the first date, I'll have the second date.
Oh, my life's even better after, and then eventually you just get married, right?
So, what benefit do you bring to a woman?
And I'm not saying you don't.
I'm just asking what you think.
Why would a woman pick you out of 50 guys?
I knew the question was coming, but I don't know.
So then you feel like a fraud.
I do. Okay. So, a woman of any quality isn't going to want to go out with a guy who's lying to her about his value, pretending to have value when he doesn't, and doesn't know or believe that he has anything of value to offer, because then he's just there for sex.
Or companionship, or his needs, not what's beneficial to her, right?
Exactly, right. Exactly.
Okay. So, how do you solve the problem of not having much to offer women?
Offer them something. Well, you have to have something to offer, right?
Yeah. Okay.
But you've spent your adult life not accumulating things to offer a woman, so...
Offering nothing. Well, it's like some guy who's retiring who says, hey, I have no money.
Well, you should have spent 40 years saving up for retirement, and I guess you didn't.
Now, you're not retiring, so it's not as dire, right?
But you're trying to figure out how can I have more confidence on dates when deep down you don't have much to offer a woman.
It's what you believe, right?
Yeah, I believe that.
That's fair. Okay, so it's like you're trying to sell a car, but it has no seats and no engine.
And you know that, and you're like, well, I'll just try and sell the car.
Maybe someone will buy it. And people look at it and say, well, wait, there's no seats, no engine here.
It's just a shell of a car. And you're like, oh, man, I can't believe people are just rejecting me all the time.
It's terrible. What's the matter with people?
I'm so angry. It's like, well, you're the one who's trying to sell a car with no engine and no seats.
What are you getting angry about?
They should be angry.
I'm wasting my time in a car with no engine and no seats.
He's right. He's right.
to get accumulate value Right Yeah I mean, does a 15-year pornography addiction add value to a woman?
Battle scars. No, it doesn't.
No, obviously not, right?
Does a guy who focuses only on his own needs and not trying to figure out how her life is going to improve from being around him, does that add value to a woman?
No. Does a broke guy add value to a woman?
No, of course not. Okay.
Does a guy with no particular prospects in the short run add value to a woman?
No, not particularly.
Okay, so my big advice to you my friend would be STOP TAKING SHORTCUTS!
Stop. Taking. Shortcuts.
They lead nowhere.
Mm-hmm. Okay, you had the urge to talk to girls when you were in your teens.
What did you do? Nothing.
Well, you did something.
You got tennis elbow. Ah!
Right? That's a shortcut, right?
Right. When it came to engineering, you didn't work that hard.
So that's lazy. That's taking, I don't know, what kind of shortcut, or you'd just rather do other things, right?
Yes. Okay. When you took your psychology degree, did you ever look up, what can I do with a psychology degree?
No. Okay.
So you're just like, well, I guess this is easier than engineering.
I'll do that. That's lazy.
That's like a shortcut. That was it.
Right? Yes.
And then you're like, well, I guess mom and dad can pay the bills for a while, and then I'll just play more video games and watch more porn, and that's all shortcuts, right?
Rather than achieving things in the real world, you're achieving things digitally.
And you're not even saying, holy shit, do I ever love video games?
I'll become a professional video game player, because that's work too, right?
Well, I tried that too in college, but I didn't think it was worth mentioning.
Okay. Okay, so you're trying all these shortcuts, right?
Yep, trying. It was one thing into another.
Oh, nope, next thing up, next thing up.
Oh, I want a relationship.
Oh, I'll just date some woman in the Midwest and call it a relationship, as opposed to trying to figure something out locally, right?
That's another shortcut. Right.
Yep. Right.
That's correct. And now you're like, oh, I'm sure I'll make a fortune peddling skills I learned in three weeks.
Nope. And now, listen, I mean, real estate is a real industry.
People make a lot of money, but I know it's going to happen.
What do you think is going to happen?
What's going to happen is you'll start doing it.
Maybe you'll have a bit of success here and there, but you won't dig in.
You won't say, holy shit, I'm pushing 30.
I'm way behind the curve.
I'm going to have to work 14 fucking hours a day for six months to catch up.
Yep. You won't do that, right?
When you put it that way, probably not.
So you'll put some effort in, maybe you'll get a bit of reward, then there'll be a dry spell, and then you'll just look for something else.
I...
don't...
think...
that might happen now, but it's likely.
you I don't think that might happen now, but it's likely.
That was statistics all over the map there.
50%, 20%.
I have, every time something like this happens, I get a little bit of perspective as to why it's failed.
I failed in entrepreneurship because of, I didn't have the skills to pull it off.
But also because I didn't, you know, like you said, three-week skills.
No experience. Find the curve.
Well, okay, so let's say that you want to be an entrepreneur.
Fine. There are some people who can really do it, but you've got to read.
You've got to research. You've read books on business, business management, process efficiencies, like anything other than just like, oh, something came in, I'll do it.
I have been. Since I got into this, Yeah, I don't know if that's ideal.
Okay, so you got into business books when you got into this web stuff, right?
Yes, for real.
So what business books say that the best way to make money is a skill you can learn in a couple of weeks, that everyone else can learn in a couple of weeks?
None of them say that.
Okay. So what do you mean you're reading these business books and applying it to your business or your business ideas or what?
Not in any meaningful metric, no.
Okay, so how do you make money as an entrepreneur?
You've read these business books, right?
How do you make money? Provide value.
Okay, anyone would say that.
Okay, but how do you provide value?
What do you have to do?
What's the approach that you have to take to provide value in the business world?
Invite me. Okay.
Well, you have to provide something better, faster, cheaper, that's needed.
Right. Right, so if someone's going to do business with you, let's say you're providing some website stuff, right?
Okay, how many website providers are there out there?
Millions, right? Yeah.
And some of them have track records going back 20 or 30 years.
Which means that everybody knows they can absolutely do the job.
So why would they go with you?
Well, either they know you or something like that, or they're making some non-business decision based upon your personal needs or your brother will hire you for his business or something like that.
Or you could do it better, faster, cheaper, more reliably.
There's got to be something that differentiates you, right?
Right. So what differentiates you?
At the time, I thought it was the quality of the work and for the price that we were doing it at.
It was affordable. It was good work.
In fact, we were undercharging for the work that we were doing.
It was just a matter of marketing.
But at the same time, it was also...
Okay, so I get that. So let's say you have a great product, although undercharging is fine to get into the market, but it's not a sustainable business model.
But let's say you have a great product.
Okay, so there's no point having a great product if nobody knows about it, right?
So what did you do in terms of marketing and how was that going to be funded?
Because if you're undercharging the product, you don't have money for marketing, right?
Because you need it for your rent. So then how is the marketing going to get funded?
The strategy was referrals through local business networks, through like the small business networks around my area and other areas around it.
And we would get referrals every so often.
Actually, we're getting pretty consistent referrals, but the projects that we take...
What does that mean when you say referrals?
So you would just say to other people, if you like us, tell your friends?
No, no, no, no. The referrals is more of a technical term that these groups use.
What it is, is there's these big groups of businesses, and when they pass along a hot lead from one to another, it's called a referral.
So instead of it being like a, hey, tell your friends about us, it's a, hey, this person that I'm John...
I'm John HVAC and I'm doing an HVAC thing.
This guy wants a website. I refer them to you.
Get in contact with him.
And we would land a point with that. Why would people refer stuff to you?
What's their incentive to do that?
It's a mutual thing. So there's referrals going back and forth.
Oh, you're an HVAC guy?
I refer clients if I speak to a business that needs HVAC done while you give me business for the website.
Okay. And was it roughly equal in terms of them referring to you and you referring to others?
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was actually happening?
Yes, it was actually happening.
Okay, so why weren't you getting more work if this referral network is working?
I stopped believing in the power of the referrals when I realized that we were about to finish up this big project, which was taking up a lot of time, and we didn't have anything lined up.
And I said, hey, we've got to run ads.
And he's like okay but i got it i got it i got it i'm busy with work right now so what will have to do it later.
I.
Okay so so you've read these business books so what you do in that situation.
you My gut was to start advertising, was to take whatever money I had left and start Doing advertising.
Okay, but you didn't have any formal arrangement or business contract with this guy, right?
Oh, no, no, no, no. I was a contractor, basically, at this point.
I wasn't a salaried employee or anything.
Oh, no, I get that.
So you had no incentive to spend on the business?
Because you didn't own the business or any part of it, right?
That is absolutely true.
That is absolutely true.
Okay. So he needs to advertise.
He's not advertising. I guess you could write the ads, and then he could pay for them.
Did you suggest that? I suggested, like, there's a business bank account that we could have done ads with, and it would have been fine.
Like, I would have wrote them, copied them, I would have done.
Okay, so he didn't want to pay for the ads, right?
Not at that moment, yeah.
No. What do you mean at that moment?
At the next moment? I bet if I asked him now when things are tough, I bet if I asked him now when things are tough, he'd say yes.
Okay. What's his experience in running businesses?
None. Okay.
So you all don't know what you're doing, really.
I mean, you've read a little bit here and there, but I mean, obviously, you don't wait till you run out of business to generate new business, right?
That's true. And he's got another job, right?
And he's got a family? Yeah.
Okay. And he doesn't have any seed capital.
He doesn't have any investment. Is that right?
No. Aside from his own...
So this is, I mean, this is not a real business, right?
I would agree.
Okay. That's the vibe I got.
So now you might try real estate, right?
Yep. Same.
And did you know how much real estate, like how much the average person a year makes in real estate?
Somewhere between, I think it was like 30 to 50.
I think there was like a big agency.
But I could be wrong. It obviously depends on the market.
But not much, right? Yeah, if they're with an agency.
This is like an independently owned property group for commercial stuff too.
So, the deal has me getting a little bit more commission, but once again, it's probably not going to be much higher than that, if I had to guess.
Okay. Now, you want to make more money than that, right?
Of course I want to make more money than that.
Okay, so how do you make more money?
If I had to answer that question, I'd Aside from not taking shortcuts.
Yeah, but not taking shortcuts isn't an answer that's just telling you what not to do, right?
Exactly. If I say, how do you exercise and say, don't sit on the couch, that doesn't really answer much, right?
So how do you make more money in real estate?
Make more money in real estate?
Yes. My strategy currently involves a mix of in-person advertising with cards and But mixing it also with the digital marketing and advertisement because I'll have some budget and revenue for that.
Why should someone choose you to buy or sell real estate?
That's the question you have to answer.
Well, because the commission specifically, since we're smaller, since we're not a big company, we don't take like a 5% commission.
We take something more like 2.4% off the top of the purchase.
Okay, but you have no experience negotiating.
So the reason people pay 5%, not 2.4% is why?
Why do they pay double the commission to some people?
Because it's easy. Because it's so much easier to like...
No, no, no. Why do they pay 5%?
Not 2.4%. Why do they pay 5%?
Why? Um...
I'd like to hear your answer. Well, it's not my answer.
It's the only logical possible answer.
That they're paying an extra percentage point because they want people more experienced in negotiating who are going to get them more than the difference.
Yes. Right? So if you can get someone to jack up the price 10% and you're paying 5%, right, then you're still up 5%.
But if you guys can only jack up the price 1% or 2%, they haven't really saved any money.
Right. So if I'm coming to you and you're trying to sell me your real estate thing, first question I'm going to ask is, what if you bought and sold?
Because I need to know your experience.
I mean, negotiating on behalf of real estate is really complicated.
Because there's, I mean, you know, negotiating in business, there's a lot of, I mean, bullshit, lies, there's a lot of bluffing, there's a lot of whatever, right?
I mean, it's a game, right?
And so if somebody has a lot of experience in real estate, they've had enough experience to know, well, people will lowball you, but what's their real figure?
And if you go too high, they'll just go with someone else.
So there's a real sweet spot in there, which you have no experience getting.
That's why he specifically says, If you can set the appointments, you can come with me anytime there's an appointment to close or to do contract negotiations, and we'll go there together, and you can watch and you can listen.
Okay, and why is he doing this? He's got 20.
I couldn't tell you.
He just likes me.
He's an old man. He's like 70 years old.
Okay, so he doesn't have kids.
He wants to transfer his knowledge.
Okay, so that can be a real benefit.
That can be a real mentor. Okay, so the best way to learn how to make money in real estate, and I'm no expert, right?
So obviously, I'm just guessing here.
But the best way is you have to watch people do it and then learn how to do it yourself to find that sweet spot in negotiating that's not too high and not too low.
And you won't know that.
I wouldn't know that in real estate.
I couldn't do that for the life of me.
Now, I could do it in software contracts because I spent many years negotiating those, but you need to find a sweet spot.
It's like when you're negotiating for a car.
There's a sweet spot where, you know, it's a good price for you.
It's a good price for the seller. It's fair.
It's reasonable. Everybody's reasonably happy.
That's the sweet spot, right? So, learning that is complicated.
It is. And it's part art form, it's part instinct, it's part reasoning, it's part knowledge, it's experience.
And so if this guy wants the knowledge transfer to you, then...
So is he relying on you to set the appointments up?
No, it's more like just another body on...
It's more like just another body on the signs.
Like the signs will have his office number, but also my agent number.
But also, it's just The way it seems is that it's to get more...
It's like multiplication of effort, I guess, is the best way to say it.
I don't know what that means.
He takes calls.
Hang on, let me ask my questions.
What is the workflow for you?
What's the benefit that he has in making you cards and putting you on the website?
I've asked him, but he says...
He just says...
He just shrugs. He just says, I like talking to you.
You're cool. We have a lot in common, he says.
And he's a religious guy.
And he may be looking to retire.
Maybe he's looking for someone to...
I had this negotiation many, many years ago.
A guy was running a...
A courier business, and none of his kids wanted to run the courier business, and I ended up in touch with him, and we were in negotiations for me to take over the courier business, but I ended up deciding to go do my master's instead.
So this, of course, is many years ago.
So he just may not have anyone to give his business to, and he wants it to continue.
That seems like it, because one of his plans was that if it didn't go, if his, you know, If he wanted to pass it off and go on vacation in two years, he wouldn't have anybody to pass it on to.
He mentioned that specifically.
So in two years, he's like...
So maybe this guy can be a mentor for you, and maybe you've lucked out on some golden carpet.
And that's great, honestly.
But you need to figure out how to provide maximum value for this guy.
Yes. Right.
So in general, if you want to succeed, the amount of work you do evens out over the course of your life.
Okay. Now, you've been a pretty lazy son of a bitch for most of your adult life, if you don't mind me saying it frankly.
I appreciate that.
I mean, that's fair, right? And that makes sense, because if you've been working really hard and you were still in this position, that would be pretty terrible, right?
Yeah, it would be very, my nihilism would be quite high.
My muscles are strangely weak.
Do you have a workout? No.
No. Well, that's good news, because if your muscles are strangely weak and you work out, you probably have some big problem with your body, right?
No. Yes.
So your parents were lazy, right?
Because they didn't parent. Yes.
Not at all. So your parents were lazy bastards, and that kind of transferred down to you being kind of a lazy bastard.
Yeah. And that's good news, in my opinion.
So now you have to work all of the stuff you didn't work.
You know how it is in life, it's pay me now or pay me later, right?
You just choose your suffering.
Now, you didn't choose the suffering of hard work when you were younger, so now you have the suffering of anxiety and worry, right?
That was the decision, yes.
Yeah, and listen, I mean, you had a lot of fun playing the video games.
No, I didn't. Obviously, pornography was easier than dating, right?
So, let's not just immediately, oh my God.
You got some benefits at the time.
Video games are fun, no question, right?
So, you had your fun, and now you got to get to work.
And so, what that means is, are you going to do the real estate thing?
Is that the next thing for you?
I'm torn between the fact that my entrepreneurial track record is so...
No, no, no.
This guy's mentoring you.
He's willing to mentor you for whatever reason.
It doesn't really matter, but he's willing to mentor you, right?
Yes. Okay, so you're learning entrepreneurship.
You're learning at the feet of a master, right?
This guy's 70, and he's been doing this for decades, I assume, right?
Yes. Okay. For a long time.
So he wants to transfer knowledge and whatever to you.
So take it.
All right. But now this means you've got to work.
You're 10, 12, 14 hours a day.
Put it in. Well, I mean, and put it in and learn.
And when you feel like giving up, you just say, well, nope.
Right? Get back to it, right?
Right. And so you're making up for lost time.
That's right. And it's the only way to redeem the wasted time is to work harder later.
So now, you've got to read about real estate.
You've got to read about contract law.
You've got to study real estate.
You've got to maybe go to seminars.
And you've got to shadow this guy if he's willing to have you do it.
You've got to take him out for dinner and just pick his brain.
And what about this? And what about that?
And, you know, you've just got to show massive enthusiasm in what it is that he's doing.
And you have to stun him with how quickly you're learning.
I'm shadowing him tomorrow.
Excellent. And then you come home, and there'll be that little fucking keyboard and mouse that wants to lure you into digital nonsense.
And you'd be like, nope, I'm picking up another book.
Nope, I'm picking up The Art of the Deal.
Nope, I'm picking up this. Whatever it is that I have to do, you can negotiate anything by Herb Cohen.
Not the most moral book in the world, but a very good book on negotiation.
So you just gotta grit your teeth and just do the work now.
And that's what differentiates you, is you're just willing to do the work.
What is it that differentiated me?
Why did people listen to me?
At my peak, I was one of the top podcasts in the world, so why did people listen to me rather than Other people, because I was a foolhardy idiot who rushed in where angels feared to tread, right?
I mean, no, because I took on the controversial topics that you couldn't get anywhere else that were really important, right?
Yeah. So, and I just bounced from controversy to controversy, and it was quite an exciting ride.
I have no regrets, and it was the right thing for me to do at the time.
But I was willing at least to take those risks to provide that value, and also showing up just how not courageous other people were, right?
Correct. So I had to differentiate.
How do you differentiate yourself?
Okay, so how are you going to differentiate yourself?
Because there are some people in the real estate business, they grew up with their parents in the real estate business, and they have a decade worth of experience when they're 30, right?
Mm-hmm. So how are you going to compete with a decade worth of experience?
Well, you're going to have to catch up, right?
Play catch up. Yeah, that would be it.
And playing catch up means stop self-pitying, Because your panic is saying, get in motion, get your ass in gear, stop wasting time.
Stop being angry at the world.
Like, you understand, nobody owes you a fucking thing, right?
Nobody. A girl doesn't owe you time.
Nobody owes you a paycheck.
I mean, your parents, and I'm really sad about this, like, I just, you know, I mean, it's a bit of a tough talk here, but I'm really sad about what happened to you as a child.
I mean, you were so not invested in, it was truly heartbreaking and tragic and sorrowful.
So that's really awful.
I'm incredibly angry at your parents for being so lazy and inattentive and it's like okay if you want to not talk to your kids It's a pretty simple solution. Just don't have kids, but once you have kids, that's what I told them. Yeah when you once you have kids Yeah, correct. So So I'm mad at them and I have great sympathy for what happened to you as a child, but you're pushing 30 now, right?
Which means that... Something's my fault. I'm sorry?
you I was going to say, yeah, it's a little bit of my responsibility now that I'm pushing 30.
No, it's all of your responsibility.
It's not a little bit anymore.
It's all of your responsibility.
Right. Everything in your life has, and it has been for many years, everything in your life is 100% your responsibility, your fault, your benefit.
Yes.
Yes, that makes sense.
So, yeah, it's time to put away childish things, it's time to grow up quickly, and it's time to get to work.
And if you get to work, you can redeem, and you can actually be further ahead.
You know, people who start off further behind who panic can often end up way further ahead than people who've just been coasting or moving forward on less momentum.
So there's absolutely nothing wrong with where you are Unless you keep taking shortcuts, in which case you're just going to shortcut yourself into complete irrelevance and probably further unhappiness.
So if you're going to do the real estate thing, and this may be a unique opportunity if you're interested in real estate, if you're interested in that, but you've got to let go of the anger towards people.
Be angry at your parents, sure, I think that makes sense, but you've got to let go of the anger towards the world, and you've got to stop treating the world like they're your parents.
If people treat you unjustly, that's fine.
They can treat you unjustly and you can just move on.
Maybe you should have quit that job rather than wait to get fired.
I don't know. But just being resentful is pointless.
Be angry at the right people to the right measure and you'll find that the resentment leaves you in the rest of your life.
But if you're not angry at the right people, it bleeds over into everything else.
That makes sense. So yeah, get yourself, you know, maybe when you're shadowing this guy tomorrow, right?
I'm telling you, get a little, and he's old school, right?
So get a little notepad.
Old school. Get a little notepad and a pencil.
I brought one. I was writing notes.
Good. Write this shit down.
Say to him, okay, what are the 10 best books you've ever read on real estate?
Who was your mentor on real estate?
And then if he tells you, oh, it was Billy Joe Bob, whatever his name is, in real estate, then you go and read every single book you could find from that guy.
And then you go back and you tell him, hey, I read everything from this guy and he's going to be delighted and he's going to want to share more information with you.
So you just get in there like a remora and just suck the knowledge out of his brain.
And he'll be thrilled to pass it along.
I'm more blessed than I thought because he can get meetings with these people.
He can talk to them and we can have lunch with some of these higher up people.
Yeah. This may be, you know, the God's grace landing on your forehead, man.
This may be just a part of the clouds that gives you a direction, but this is time to make up for all of the shortcuts and all the laziness that you've been doing since you were in your mid-teens.
So you got a good 15 years of semi-faffin, and now it's like, okay, that was a good long rest.
Time to get to work. Now it's time to hustle.
Like, seriously hustle. Because I tell you, man, I can outwork just about anybody, even at my age.
And outworking is the thing.
Like, outworking is the absolute thing if you're just willing to go further.
If you're just willing to do more, to go further, to say yes, to get things done without resentment.
Right? I worked, well, no, this morning.
I went to a funeral this morning.
I'm doing a show with you this afternoon.
I'm going to do a couple hours of live stream tonight.
Right? So, and I also spent a couple of hours doing some various admin stuff, so I just work.
And then, you know, I've obviously worked with my, I've got my daughter still at home, you know, I spend time with my wife, got friends, right?
So, I'm just willing to work.
And the willingness to work and just no shortcuts put in the time Realize that you're incredibly lucky to have somebody who's willing to transfer decades of knowledge to your brain and also that he's willing.
He sees a potential in you that you probably don't see in yourself.
And I'm encouraging you to explore that too and just say, work is going to be tough.
You're going to feel resentful.
You're going to feel upset because it's a muscle you need to develop.
Once you have that muscle, you can move the entire world.
If you don't have that muscle, it's tough to move a cup of coffee.
So that's my sort of suggestion as a whole.
That has put some valuable perspective on...
That's valuable.
Good. Good.
All right. Well, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
Absolutely. I'm a donor.
I'll probably be on the live streams.
I'll probably be hanging out in the chat and stuff.
But... I mean, I guess my last point, my last thing I want to say is just thanks for all your help and my...
I don't want to say faith.
My belief is that just by...
It comes naturally, right?
If I participate, and I'm working, and I change the way I do things, and I'm feeling less resentment, I'm so in my own head.
Do I really have to think so much?
Do I have to think a lot? Do I have to think so much?
If you shift your focus...
On what benefits you to what benefits others, your life changes immeasurably.
Gotcha. So you think too much about yourself because you're trying to figure out what you can get and if you're going to get it and if you're going to be rejected and if you're going to be hurt and if you're going to be neglected and if people are going to avoid you and if they like you and it's all about you.
And nobody really wants to be around that.
Right? Because it's greedy and it's kind of selfish.
And I don't mean this when you were a kid, right?
It's perfectly understandable, right?
Because you're just trying to live on scraps, right?
But if you instead wake up in the morning and say, okay, how can I benefit others?
How can I benefit this old guy?
How can I show my appreciation?
How can I benefit these clients?
How can I benefit some woman in my life?
Right? How can I benefit others?
Gets you out of your own head, gets you out of neurosis, gets you out of your anxiety, just how can I benefit others?
How can I benefit others? That's the way that I work in my life, and I've got to tell you, I think it works out pretty well.
And if you just say, rather than what do I need, what can I provide?
Now, you say, ah, yes, but there's going to be people who exploit you.
And it's like, eh, but, first of all, it's better to be exploited than to exploit others, number one.
And number two, if you're generous with how you help others, it becomes very evident to you when people aren't generous in return, and then you can just move on.
It's not about being exploited.
It's just about, you know, if I lend money to my friends and then one day I need to borrow money and they won't lend me anything, then I just don't lend them anymore, right?
I've understood that, right?
So it is actually, it's a great self-protection to be generous as long as you're monitoring what comes back.
Right. All right, man.
I'm going to take a bit of a break and follow my next show and I really appreciate your time today and I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
I appreciate you.
I will... Be in contact, maybe?
Well, definitely, but I don't know exactly when.
Yeah, whenever you can.
But you'll be busy, so whenever you can.
Yes, I will be.
Have a good afternoon. Take care.
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