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Oct. 5, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:19:17

My Mother Took Herself Out! Freedomain Call In

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	So, the marriage.
	Let's hear all about it.
	Okay. We have been married since 2020.
	And, you know, I think we've had ups and downs like most couples.
	We don't really argue a whole lot, but there's definitely a lack of communication going on.
	What prompted the call to you Was last week I received a text from my wife saying that she was going to go stay with her mom for a while.
	And at the time it seemed out of the blue, but looking back on it now, I definitely
	Could see some changes in attitude and changes in actions, I guess
	And then I was pretty frantic so I emailed you real quick I didn't give a lot of detail, I know.
	And I've talked to her since.
	And the issues are much deeper than I could have imagined.
	Or, well, I probably should have.
	But they're much deeper than I thought they were initially.
	And at the moment, she is staying at her mom's.
	She has told me that she's definitely contemplating divorce.
	Sorry, I don't want to interrupt, but I'm not sure when you're done.
	Yeah, we do have two children together, and I have one from a previous relationship as well, so that is a big factor in the marriage as well.
	Previous relationship, but not a previous marriage, is that right?
	Correct. Yeah, that relationship was not good from the start.
	Yeah, I'm not sure what else to say about that one.
	That was a big mistake.
	So how long have you been listening to the show again?
	Since just before the Trump presidency, so 2015-ish.
	So nine years, right?
	Eight or nine years, right? About, yeah.
	So why would you call me now?
	I guess I just thought things were okay as they were.
	I think I fell into complacency.
	No, no, but you already had a relationship with the Kid Fail, right?
	Yes. So, I'm just trying to sort of figure out, like, why now?
	I mean, you've been listening for, you know, eight years, nine years, and you've probably heard me say a million times, I do prevention, not cure?
	Correct. So, I'm just trying to follow this.
	Okay, so I had my oldest before I started listening to you.
	And that relationship ended very quickly after we had her.
	And then I started listening to you.
	I thought I was taking the dive into self-knowledge.
	And then probably a couple years ago, I think I just kind of stopped listening for whatever reason.
	With that came a lack of progress.
	Right. And why do you think you stopped listening?
	I mean, obviously, it's fine.
	It's not like, oh my god, why did you stop listening?
	But it doesn't seem to have been particularly helpful in your life.
	No, it certainly wasn't.
	and I don't think it was intentional. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Okay. We don't, I don't do intent,
	How can I possibly judge intention?
	I can only judge actions, right?
	Correct. Okay.
	Oh, was it like around the platforming time?
	Did you...?
	Yeah, it was, and I think I subscribed on Subscribestar, and it just...
	I know it's just an excuse, but it was pretty difficult to find your content.
	The links always wouldn't work for me.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean. Because subscribe, that's not a video platform, right?
	So the podcast feeds didn't change at all, right?
	So if you were subscribed to the podcast, my deplatforming didn't matter, right?
	Yeah, I guess I was trying to find videos.
	So when I would go to subscribe, start, I hit the link to locals or whatever it be.
	I guess it wouldn't connect over.
	I didn't have locals at the time.
	Yeah, but the subscribe stuff also had BitChute and Rumble and Brighteon and Dailymotion and just a wide variety of other video platforms.
	So I'm not trying to nag you or anything like that, but, I mean, we didn't post stuff that didn't work, right?
	No, I understand there was other links.
	I guess I just...
	I didn't put the time in.
	I guess I thought I was done with self-knowledge.
	Okay, so when de-platforming was like, I'll move on, right?
	Yeah, I suppose so.
	Well, no, I don't want to be unfair in what...
	Well, I want to say it was more of a subconscious decision that my life was not very...
	Certain aspects of my life didn't seem like they were very good.
	I was in a very self-deprecating point, and I just didn't really want to learn about myself anymore at that point.
	Yeah, I mean, so I guess it was a couple of years ago, Randy, platforming that you left, and then when did you come back, if you did?
	Probably about a week or two ago is when I subscribed on Locals.
	I dropped Subscribestar and went to Locals.
	Right. Oh, so you were still subscribing on Subscribestar even though you weren't listening.
	Is that right? Correct.
	Well, I appreciate that, I guess.
	I appreciate that. Of course. Okay.
	All right. So you jumped off the self-knowledge bandwagon, things got worse, and now you want to jump back on, if I understand this correctly.
	Yeah, that's accurate.
	All right. I know that sounds naggy.
	I don't mean it that way. I just want to sort of get the lay of the land.
	Okay. All right.
	So what happened with your first relationship, well, with your first child?
	With my first child, it was a teen pregnancy.
	It was an accident. Well, I know it's not.
	Come on, man. Don't make me work this hard right at the beginning.
	You know the conversation. You're going to have to drop all of this intentional, accidental.
	Like, if you've come here to make excuses, I mean, like, you've just come to the wrong place.
	You know that, right? Like, you've just got to own stuff, right?
	Yep. I chose to have unprotected sex with a woman that I shouldn't have and definitely one I should not have given children to.
	So why did you choose to have unprotected sex with her?
	I don't think I've ever figured that one out.
	I don't know. Did you want it or did she want it?
	I think we both did.
	Okay, well, so you wanted to go raw-dogging, and you just thought, what the heck?
	Yeah. Yeah, I did.
	I didn't think about the consequences of what would happen after that.
	Okay. So why do you think you didn't think of the consequences?
	Because, you know, you're literally dicing to make an actual human being, right?
	That's about the biggest consequence that there is, right?
	Yeah. Yes, it is.
	So what do you think was going on?
	I don't... I... I... I really...
	I don't know.
	I... That's one thing I still don't understand why I did that.
	I don't know.
	I would like to say I was lonely at the time.
	Okay. Lonely doesn't mean make a baby.
	Lonely means go to a movie or have a chat or a dinner or I guess even sex, but protected sex, right?
	So lonely is not an answer.
	And do you know why she kept the baby?
	No, I mean, a lot of women don't.
	I've always been against abortion, and once I figured out that she was pregnant, I wanted to take on the responsibility of having a child.
	And she did as well.
	So she's against abortion, and is she religious?
	Is that one of the reasons you're against abortion?
	No, I never was growing up.
	She was. She said she was.
	And... So it was against her faith, but she never followed her faith anyway.
	It was against her faith, but she'll have unprotected sex outside of marriage.
	Okay, got it.
	So the faith is a little like trying to get an FM signal from a barge in the middle of the Atlantic.
	Okay. Dial in, dial out, comes closer, comes further away.
	All right. Okay, so then did you get married?
	No, we did not.
	We separated... I think eight months after my daughter was born, she ended up getting addicted to drugs.
	She got addicted to drugs while she was breastfeeding?
	No, she only breastfed for two months.
	All right, do you want to flesh this one out a little more?
	Well, at the time, I don't think I realized how essential breastfeeding was, and she certainly didn't.
	She also, I think the main thing was she wanted to start smoking cigarettes again.
	Sorry, so she gave up breastfeeding because she wanted to smoke cigarettes?
	Uh...
	you Yeah, I think so.
	Okay. Go on.
	So I, after we split up I became a single father and I had my...
	No, no, why did you split up?
	Because she got addicted to drugs?
	Like, I assume, obviously, you're talking about more than nicotine here, right?
	Yeah, no, she...
	Kind of just went downhill.
	Alcohol, methamphetamines, all kinds of stuff.
	And was she a drug user before she met you?
	I think she smoked weed before she met me, but that was all.
	Sorry, you think? How long did you know her before you had unprotected sex with her?
	Two years. So she definitely smoked weed before I met her.
	I smoked weed as well.
	And then I did a few hallucinogenics, which were definitely not good.
	I've stopped doing all that stuff.
	But she went back to kind of the smoking weed lifestyle and then got involved with some people that were not good, ended up getting into harder drugs.
	And... Yeah.
	Okay. And were you living together?
	We were. Okay.
	And so she started smoking cigarettes after...
	Two months, and then she, I guess over the next half a year, she slid into, like, full-on drug addiction, right?
	Yes. Okay. So, did you get custody of the child?
	I did. Uh, sole custody?
	I did, yes.
	Okay. And, was she involved in your child's life again after that?
	Uh, not for about...
	not until Jamie...
	I don't know if I should have said, not until my daughter was a year and a half old.
	She got two overnights a week, and then I think a year and a half after that, she got week on, week off, and that's what we've been on ever since then.
	And how did she get all of that?
	Did she go through rehab? Did she clean up?
	No, she told the judge in court that she had smoked meth less than a week and a half before the court date and was awarded two overnights.
	And why do you think she wanted this?
	She wanted the overnight?
	She wanted to be back in touch with her, is it daughter?
	Yeah, correct.
	Why do you think she wanted that?
	I don't know.
	She's always kind of used Jamie as a status symbol.
	Please stop using your daughter's name.
	Sorry. She's always used our daughter as kind of a status symbol.
	Oh, look how great of a mother I am.
	Look at all this I'm doing.
	Look at what I bought for my daughter.
	So that was definitely in play.
	And then there was probably some aspects of her actually wanting to be a parent.
	But I... I'd say not very much of that.
	Ah, okay. So she didn't have any financial incentive?
	No. Okay.
	So she wasn't getting any child support from you?
	No. And why not?
	Um... I'm just...
	I don't know. I'm no lawyer.
	I don't know whether you should or shouldn't.
	I'm just... It's a bit unusual if she was not...
	Well, I assume she didn't have some big career or job or...
	No, she didn't.
	I... One of the first court dates, I declined.
	I actually was the one that would have got child support, but I declined to go that route because I knew she didn't have a job.
	Sorry, if she didn't have a job, why would you get child support?
	Oh, because she was sold custody.
	Correct. Okay, got it.
	Yeah, so I declined that, and then I guess just over the years, she's never...
	I still do most.
	I pay for my daughter's schooling.
	I pay for most extracurricular stuff.
	So I still financially support most of what she does.
	There's just no court order in place.
	Okay. But you don't pay any money to the ex.
	Okay. Got it.
	All right. And has your ex, is she off drugs now?
	No. Okay.
	Good. And you tell me a little bit about your childhood leading up to this?
	My childhood?
	Yes. My childhood was a very rough one.
	When I was four years old, I didn't watch it, but I was inside while my mom was outside, and she shot herself in the leg.
	And then my maternal grandmother got custody of me.
	We moved across country, and my mom killed herself, I think, six months later.
	And do you know why your mother...
	I'm obviously very sorry. This is appalling to hear.
	Do you know why your mother was this way?
	I would say a lot of it was drug use.
	I know one thing that definitely affected her heavily was when she was 17, he got pregnant.
	And actually, it was between my sibling and I that she got pregnant.
	And my maternal grandmother, she said she made her get an abortion.
	And that was something that my mom obviously didn't agree with and probably struggled with.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I mean...
	Yeah, I mean, obviously very, very tragic.
	I don't know that it makes you shoot yourself in the leg and then kill yourself.
	Was your mother very religious?
	No, definitely not.
	So, yeah, I don't know.
	I mean, it's completely ridiculous for me to judge this.
	Like, I don't know your mother.
	I'm just hearing this story for the first time.
	So I'm just telling you my gut sense, which, again, is completely meaningless.
	I just want to be really, really clear on that.
	But normally, I mean, I've been doing this for a long time, and normally I can get a sense of cause and effect.
	In this one, I can't, which, again, means nothing, right?
	It just seems like, I mean, if you think, like, so many women have abortions and they don't become suicidal, so I can't quite see the causality there.
	Yeah, I'm not too sure either.
	I did read a letter that she wrote shortly before she did that.
	She blamed her boyfriend at the time for being abusive.
	She was abused through almost every one of her relationships.
	Oh, so she blamed her mother for making her get an abortion.
	She blamed her boyfriend for being abusive.
	Is that right? Yeah, I would say in my maternal side, there's been a lot of lack of accountability.
	Sorry, go on.
	No, that was the point I was trying to make.
	Okay. And how old were you when your mother shot herself in the leg, and then how old were you when your mother killed herself?
	I was four when she shot herself, and I was five when she killed herself.
	Okay. And did the boyfriend who was around, was the boyfriend living with you?
	Was that guy around?
	I don't think so.
	He had his own house.
	My mom had her own house.
	So I don't think he was around me a whole lot.
	And where did you go after your mother killed herself?
	With my maternal grandmother.
	Oh god, the woman who raised your mother.
	Correct. You know, it's a funny modern thing.
	People say correct rather than yes.
	Do you know, is that a thing?
	Because I've just had a whole bunch of these conversations lately where people, I'm asking a question and I get this kind of half-robotic correct, as if it's some sort of court case or something, as opposed to like, yeah.
	Well, I say it because I saw a video that said it's, I don't know if it's a, the other person will perceive it in a different sense than saying yes, in a better sense than saying yes.
	Really? Yeah, I don't know if that's true, but that's why I started saying it.
	No, it's fine. It's a conversational tick that I'm not really used to, but it seems to be.
	Maybe that video is very popular.
	I don't know. That's fine. I don't particularly mind.
	I just feel like I'm cross-examining a hostile witness or something.
	Sorry. No, that's fine.
	That's fine. Okay, so you went with your maternal grandmother at five, and how did that go?
	Not very well. She obviously was dealing with the death of her daughter.
	Very distant.
	I would say that I was emotionally neglected growing up.
	Right. I'm not sure.
	I guess nobody played with you, nobody chatted with you.
	Was she married? No, she was not married.
	Okay. And where was her?
	Her husband or the father of your mother?
	They split up long before I was born, and he lived in a different state.
	Okay. Got it.
	Got it. And you had no contact with your father, right?
	No, my father passed away when I was very young.
	Drugs or violence or something like that?
	I definitely would say drugs had a part in it.
	He was in a police chase and jumped out of his vehicle and ended up injuring himself and died.
	Yeah. Right.
	Okay. And so, how did things play out?
	I mean, you went to school, and how did things go there?
	Yeah, I went to school.
	I started daycare before preschool and preschool, and then we moved when I was in third grade.
	And by...
	What did it have been?
	Eighth grade. Eighth grade was another pretty bad year for me.
	My... Again, my paternal grandmother's other child, her son, was in and out of prison most of his life.
	He was... We moved to go be with him, and then he went back to prison...
	And in 8th grade, when I was in 8th grade, he was murdered in prison.
	But I... He was in a hospital for a while, and I went with my grandmother to go see him before he passed away.
	And inevitably ended up watching him die.
	Oh, like you were in hospital when he died?
	Correct. Yes.
	Right. Okay.
	And were you close to him at all before he went to prison, or did you know him much at all?
	I knew him for a few months, so I wasn't particularly close with him.
	Okay. Got it. Do you, of course, have any idea why he was killed in prison?
	No. I know it was some gang violence.
	Okay. Got it.
	Got it. And what's your ethnic background?
	Uh, Caucasian. White.
	Okay. So, this is all very, very sad.
	How old were you when your uncle died?
	Uh, 13. Okay.
	And, um, how were you doing in school and social life and all that kind of stuff?
	I assume. I mean, that must have been pretty tough.
	Yeah, I was doing really good in school up until that point.
	And in that point, I think...
	I fell into kind of a depression or kind of a bad spot.
	I started smoking weed when I was in 8th grade.
	And that definitely led to a lot of negative things that have happened in my life.
	And how did you get the weed in the 8th grade?
	It was everywhere. Well, no, I know that.
	But it's not cheap, right?
	I mean, it's not given to you for nothing.
	No, I had a...
	You could call it a job.
	I watered plants for a family member for $20 a week.
	And that's that money.
	Oh, okay. Got it.
	All right. Okay.
	And then what?
	I continued to do poorly in schooling and probably socially into high school.
	And I think it was my sophomore year is when I met my ex.
	And so I was smoking a lot of weed, doing a lot of stupid things.
	Right.
	And is there anything that you wanted to add?
	I can keep asking questions, or...
	Well, I'll get the last part of what I would say would be my trauma.
	I wasn't quite... It wasn't childhood trauma.
	When I... A year after I graduated high school, my brother, my only other sibling, my brother, he was in prison in and out too.
	He kind of followed my uncle's footsteps.
	So your mother's other brother?
	No, my brother.
	Sorry, and you have one sibling, is that right?
	Yes. Okay. Yeah, my brother pretty much followed my uncle's exact footsteps and ended up dying from injuries caused in prison as well.
	Oh gosh. And what was he in prison for?
	He was in prison for felony theft.
	I think it was a laptop, so it was considered felony theft.
	And how old was he?
	He was 23.
	Right. And he was older, is that right?
	Yes. Okay, got it.
	Very sad. Very sad.
	I'm obviously incredibly sorry for all of this.
	I mean, it's heartbreaking, of course, right?
	And what a monster your grandmother must have been.
	Yeah. I appreciate it.
	And that's why when I first found you, I found you through kind of the political stuff and then delved into the self-knowledge stuff.
	It was really a bastion of wealth that I found you.
	Right. So, you said that it was pretty bad for you when your brother died, right?
	Yes. Or was killed.
	Yes. Yeah, that was...
	What was that for you?
	Because I didn't get a sense of how it was for you and your brother, with your brother growing up.
	Were you guys close? We weren't particularly close in childhood, but once I reached my teen years, we got pretty close.
	And then I think we kind of drifted further apart as he obviously went and To the footsteps of going to prison and all that stuff.
	But there was a few years where we definitely got close.
	You mean when you were much younger?
	When I was in my teen years, yeah.
	Oh, your teen years. Okay, got it.
	So what did it mean for you with regards to your brother?
	I mean, what was in your mind when he died?
	Was that like, you're doomed, or was there something else?
	No, it wasn't like I was doomed.
	It was just...
	I guess that's when I started...
	I felt truly alone.
	Like, I had nobody in my life that knew what I had gone through in my life to kind of share that with.
	Right, okay. And yeah, I took his death very hard.
	So, it was, I'm still trying to understand, and obviously I'm not saying you shouldn't have been taking it hard.
	Of course you should have, right?
	I mean, it's a brutal thing to have happen.
	But what do you think was the meaning behind what was so tough about it for you?
	I think it was, I don't know if it's quite a meaning, but My brother was probably the only other person that ever experienced kind of the same stuff I did when we were growing up, at least that I knew of.
	So it was almost...
	It was a lack of connection with anyone, really.
	I don't know if that makes sense.
	Not quite. So, lack of connection.
	There was nobody then who'd known your childhood or anything like that.
	Is that right? Yeah.
	Okay. Got it.
	All right.
	And how was your social life when you were a teen?
	Um, I've...
	Kind of a tricky question, because I feel like I had a decent social life,
	but everyone that I was socializing with was kind of doing the same thing I was.
	Drug use and people from injured backgrounds.
	So there was no deep connection anywhere.
	There were no real friendships.
	Kind of just, oh, let's go smoke weed together.
	Let's go be stupid together.
	Right, okay. And then, was the woman you got pregnant, was she in this social circle?
	Yeah. Okay.
	But you knew her for, I think you said two years?
	A year and a half or two, somewhere in there, yeah.
	And were you sexually active, or what portion of that time were you sexually active?
	All of it. Oh, okay, okay.
	So you were together for quite some time.
	Were you boyfriend-girlfriend, or was it just kind of vicinity?
	No, we were exclusive.
	Okay. And was it just the one time that you had unprotected sex, or was it more common?
	There were a few times, but most of the time we would use protection.
	Okay, got it.
	All right. Okay.
	And so, sorry, remind me how old were you when you became a dad?
	I was 19.
	19, okay. And she's your age, more or less?
	Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
	And so then how old were you when you met your current wife?
	Almost 21.
	Almost 21, okay. And where did you meet her?
	We worked at the same place.
	Okay, so she meets you, and tell me a little bit about how you guys got together.
	We met, and then we just kind of maintained a friendly work friendship.
	And at one point I tried to, I guess, make the moves, but she was in a relationship, so...
	I backed off, and then I think a few months, probably six months later, she ended up becoming single, leaving the guy she was with, and we started hanging out.
	And then a few months later, we decided to start dating.
	Okay, and what was it that attracted you to each other, do you think?
	Um... Sexual appeal.
	Right. Okay.
	Yeah, I'll be honest there.
	It was probably sexual appeal.
	Right. Okay. And that's from her side.
	For you, sorry, that's from your side.
	For her, was it the same thing?
	Yeah, I think it was mutual.
	Okay. Got it.
	And I assume that her background is a mess.
	Um, it's not great.
	It's not good. She, her parents divorced when she was pretty young.
	I want to say seven.
	And her mother was very emotionally abusive, or no, I should say verbally abusive.
	her father was very emotionally abusive.
	Okay, and did she have any concerns about you and your ex and all of this sort of stuff?
	us.
	you you
	I'm sure she did.
	She didn't really convey them to me, though.
	Okay. And so, how long have you guys been together?
	Seven years. Married for four.
	Okay. And you have two children with her, is that right?
	Yes. Okay.
	And if you can tell me a little bit about what you think might have gone wrong.
	Yeah. I will start off vague and get a little more detailed.
	I have not been a very good husband to her.
	I have been very emotionally distant.
	I think we haven't connected for quite a long time.
	But I think more specifically, I have been very critical of her to the point of condescension many, many times. She told me the other day that she is scared of me now.
	And an example of that is she flinches when I walk behind her.
	I think the past few years especially, there's been a very heavy drift apart and lack of communication on both of our parts.
	A lack of any Real connection as well.
	And that's probably mostly on me.
	I self-medicated for so long, and then I quit.
	Oh, you mean? Yeah, correct.
	I quit, started it back up again, and then I quit.
	And I've been sober for a while now.
	I went through a pretty heavy stint of alcoholism, too.
	Which was definitely a strain on our relationship.
	I was very angry.
	And sorry, when were you doing the drugs and alcohol?
	you I stopped smoking weed when I was 21.
	And then I started back up when I was...
	I started on and off a few different times.
	The alcohol was 2019.
	I think there was almost a full year of just very excessive drinking.
	I was on a shift at work that left me alone a lot, so I would just self-medicate with alcohol.
	And I was very aggressive during that time, constantly irritated and agitated.
	And I've since...
	Since 2021, I haven't drank very much, and I've completely cut out any marijuana use.
	But I think now I medicate with dissociating.
	I play a lot of video games, which in moderation are okay, but I think I've taken to excess.
	And that the video games definitely left me kind of not even being in the relationship or
	being around for my kids.
	Peace.
	you But again, I just...
	I don't know.
	I didn't really think it was an issue until you kind of take a step back and look at it and say, what am I doing?
	Okay, so it's from before your kids were born until a couple years ago, right?
	Yeah. And how old are your kids now?
	My oldest is eight.
	I have a four-year-old and a three-year-old.
	Okay, so three kids, right?
	Okay. Yes.
	So, when you said it was the last couple of years, you've been kind of dissociated and so on, would you say that's when the relationship began to really deteriorate?
	Yeah, I would say that's true.
	Okay. So, you don't particularly like your wife?
	Is that why you don't enjoy spending time with her?
	No, I really do enjoy spending time with her.
	I know...
	Again, I can only judge actions, not intentions.
	Yeah. No, I know.
	I don't... I think...
	I'd like to say I do enjoy spending time with her, but I'd rather just not...
	I'd rather dissociate and not be present.
	Okay. So what's tough about being present?
	And I don't mean this like, well, what on earth could be tough?
	I mean, I get it's a tough thing to do, but what's tough for you about being present?
	I think the...
	The stresses of life, you know, that's stupidly vague.
	Yeah, let's be specific.
	Money has always been kind of an issue.
	Again, I think I've seen the lack of a deep connection between us, so I've just been...
	Kind of kicking the can down the road and saying, oh, I'll take care of it later.
	I'll take care of it later.
	Sorry, take care of what? Being a present husband.
	I'm not sure what that means, being a present husband.
	I don't know what that means. I suppose I mean just...
	I don't know.
	I guess I don't know how else to put it but that because I... Certainly haven't been involved in the marriage.
	Sorry, I don't know what any of this means, haven't been involved in the marriage.
	What does that mean? I don't spend time with my wife.
	Okay, you don't spend time with your wife and not much with your kids, right?
	More with my kids than my wife, for sure.
	Does she work?
	No, she didn't until about a month ago.
	So how do you spend time with your kids without your wife if she's home?
	She'll take care of household stuff and I'll take the kids outside or I'll play games with the kids.
	We do play board games every once in a while and stuff like that.
	Yeah, I mean, talking about the stuff that's not working, right?
	Yeah, okay So what did you not enjoy about spending time with your
	wife?
	Um I don't know. I've never really thought of that
	I mean, if you're doing things other than spending time with your wife, or if you prefer to spend time with your children than your wife, I mean, obviously that is undermining the marriage, right?
	Yeah. Because the kids are a product of your relationship with your wife, and if the kids take precedence over your relationship with your wife, then you're kind of hollowing out the marriage, right?
	Yes, okay. So when did you first start to not enjoy spending time with your wife?
	I mean assume at the beginning right you guys got together you you had kids you got married
	I think you did it in that order, right?
	Yeah. Okay. Well, we had one kid.
	Yeah, we had one kid, got married, and then had more kids.
	So, I mean, was it just sexual attraction?
	Was there anything that you in particular liked about her other than companionship and sexual access?
	Yeah, we would sit down and watch some of your call-in shows or just some of your videos, and we would have deep philosophical discussions.
	And kind of the affairs of the world discussions, what's geopolitics, stuff like that.
	And that was a lot of fun.
	I loved talking to her about that kind of stuff.
	Maybe it's that we just kind of stopped talking about that kind of stuff.
	We stopped having any sort of deep philosophical talks.
	And sorry, when was that?
	Probably two or three years ago.
	Okay, I think that changed.
	I don't know.
	Because you made the decision to spend less time with her.
	Was there a conflict? Was there a problem?
	I mean, I know that having a bunch of kids can end up with people being kind of distracted,
	but there had to be some reason why you stopped talking to her.
	I mean, do you know the most common reason why we stopped talking to people?
	Why? Resentment.
	There's something about the situation that we resent.
	No, I was going to bring that up.
	Yeah, I was going to bring that up.
	I was skimming through... I haven't read the full thing.
	I really need to. I was skimming through practical...
	I'm sorry.
	Your relationship book.
	Oh, yeah. Real-time relationships.
	Real-time relationships.
	I was skimming through that, and I was reading some of that stuff today.
	Yeah, I saw a lot of myself and probably both of us in...
	A lot of the negative examples of what happens.
	Okay, so that's nice.
	But what is it that you resented with regards to your wife, if that's what it was?
	I think I resented a lot of the way...
	I guess our parenting styles.
	We're both...
	We both don't hit our kids, but...
	I would try to set rules for just a silly example.
	Like, oh, the girls are old enough.
	They're going to sleep in their own bed now.
	And time and time again, I would wake up in the middle of the night and she'd be sleeping in their bed as well.
	Sorry, why did the girls have to sleep alone?
	I just figured it was setting up healthy habits.
	Sorry, but on what theory?
	I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just curious what your theory was.
	I've heard a lot of people say, oh, you know, I think my wife did it to you.
	I slept with, you know, oh, my mom until I was eight years old and I just don't think that sets up a healthy habit for sleeping.
	Sorry, and what age were your kids when you didn't want them to sleep with their mother?
	I think about two.
	Okay. One of my kids when she was three, and then the younger one when she was two.
	Okay, and I mean, I assume that you read up on this.
	I don't know particularly the theory behind it, but I assume that you read up on it and it was the right thing to do, is that right?
	Yeah, as far as I could tell, that was the right thing to do.
	Sorry, but as far as you could tell, did you pick it up?
	Yeah, I read some articles that co-parenting or co-sleeping until a certain age is fine, but then after that you should stop co-sleeping.
	It builds negative health or negative sleep schedule, not schedules.
	Negative sleep habits.
	Okay, yeah, I'm fine with that.
	Okay, and did your wife agree with you on this?
	She said she did, but I guess the action showed different and that kind of...
	I don't know.
	Her, I felt like a lot of times...
	Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand.
	So she did...
	She did agree with you that the children should stop sleeping with you.
	Sorry, with her. Or both of you.
	Yeah. Okay. And of course, you know, it's a little tougher to sleep with kids in the bed and all of that.
	So I'm obviously fine with that.
	So, I mean, not that it matters that I'm fine with that.
	I just, I'm kind of with you there.
	Okay, so so she said that She agreed with you that the kids should not sleep in your
	marriage bed I
	You know now I think back and I think I probably just criticized and criticized
	You know all you need to or maybe even nagging is the right word
	Oh, you need to stop doing that.
	You need to stop doing that. So maybe she didn't agree and I just wanted to force her to agree.
	Like, hey, you need to stop doing that.
	Not good. Let's stop doing that.
	But you would share the information that you said, look, this is bad for the kids, it's not great for their sleeping habits, and so on, right?
	Yeah. Did you share the data with her?
	I probably didn't, no.
	Okay, so you had the data, you had good arguments behind this, and you just kind of nagged and half-bullied her into trying to change?
	Yeah. I don't want to put words in your mouth if that's not an accurate way of describing it.
	No, I'd say that's probably pretty accurate.
	Okay. So, was that a habit of yours, that when you disagreed with your wife, you would just sort of nag and half-bully her to change, or would you try and reason with her?
	I would try to reason.
	I would say, oh...
	Look at this I read.
	Look at this I read. So I would definitely try to reason the first couple times, and then once it, you know, nothing changed, I would just say, okay, well, now I'm going to start nagging.
	Okay. So why do you think you didn't have credibility with your wife?
	If you said, I think we need to stop co-sleeping with the kids, then...
	Why wouldn't she say, oh, tell me more, or that's interesting, or let me read the articles, or whatever, right?
	I mean, why do you think that she didn't want to listen to you or didn't really respect what you were saying?
	I'm not saying that she should agree with you, but you know at least be curious and open to your arguments.
	I don't know why she would with.
	you you
	I don't know. Sorry, my thoughts are getting a little jumbled up.
	Okay, well, let's go back.
	Were there times before you had the kids, or earlier on in the relationship, or when your kids were very young, were there times when she did listen to what you were saying and did accept, at least, that you probably had a valid perspective and it was worth looking at?
	Yeah, I would say definitely.
	Especially when our firstborn was born, because I had all the experience of already having an infant child.
	So I think that probably kind of swayed her opinion towards, oh, okay, yeah, he knows what he's talking about.
	Right, okay. So when did that change?
	Just some time between your firstborn and then later on?
	Yeah, probably around, probably when my firstborn was about two.
	Okay, got it.
	And again, you don't really know why, right?
	No. Okay.
	Well, I don't know then. If you don't know, then I don't know.
	Okay. So why is she scared of you?
	I guess I'm...
	Okay, don't guess.
	Don't guess. No, okay.
	Because guess is a waste of time.
	You might as well say nothing, right?
	Because I can't do anything with I guess.
	Yes. If you take your car and you get fixed and say, well, what are the problems?
	Well, I don't know. I guess this.
	It's like, well, then they can't do anything.
	Yeah. I have been very similar to her father, and I've been emotionally and definitely verbally abusive to her.
	I don't know why I got into the habit of smacking her butt.
	Or smacking her butt.
	Uh-huh. You know, I would kind of do that constantly, and that's...
	I get there's a playful kind of smack, but I guess I was...
	Sorry, we'll stop saying it, I guess.
	I was definitely doing it too hard to a point of pain for her.
	Oh, okay.
	And...
	I...
	A couple of times I would come up behind her and kind of saying in a triangle arm or triangle choke on her.
	I would never put any pressure on her.
	And I thought that was just kind of a funny thing to do, but I never really looked at it from her perspective of I'm trying to control her and force her to do whatever it is I want in that moment.
	And it was never during an argument, but I still never considered her perspective of...
	I never even considered why I was doing it.
	It just... It was something I did, and I guess it was probably built-up resentment trying to feign as a funny joke or something.
	I don't know why I would do that.
	Sorry, I'm not quite sure.
	Is it a triangle hole where you've got her in the crook of your elbow?
	Yeah. Okay.
	So you would come up and, I mean, I get you weren't trying to choke her, but you would put her in a chokehold, is that right?
	Yeah. Does that seem odd to you, like looking back at that?
	Yeah, of course. And there was aggression behind it?
	Yeah, I think so.
	Sorry, I can't do anything.
	Listen, if you don't want to have a direct conversation, if we want to do all this hedging, then I'm not sure how to proceed.
	Because we just keep doing the same thing.
	Like, you're going to be straight with me and direct with me, or you're going to play this fog game, in which case I really don't know what we're supposed to talk about.
	And I'm not trying to make you Give any absolutes you're not comfortable with or that aren't true, but I just feel like we're going to spend half the time with me saying, well, you know, this vague stuff doesn't help.
	Yeah, I understand that.
	I do that because I'm just ashamed of my actions and I don't want to actually say that I've done these things.
	No, no, I understand that.
	And I'm not saying this is easy.
	I completely understand that.
	So I'll leave it to your...
	I leave it to your decision. Yes, there was aggression behind it, built up pent-up anger and aggression.
	What were you angry about?
	Was it that she wasn't listening to you about bedtime?
	Not just bedtime, but probably a lot of different things.
	I feel like I've never really been, well, not never.
	I feel like I haven't been listened to in the relationship regarding kids.
	Or even household stuff in quite a long time.
	What do you mean by household stuff?
	Just small, stupid stuff.
	The stuff needs to be picked up when we're done with it.
	When we're done with a dish, let's just clean it and put it away.
	The cupboards need to be closed when we're not actively getting something out of them.
	I've hit my head on a couple cupboards.
	Yeah, sorry, why does, I mean, yeah, you can bump your head on cupboards, but that's also partly on you to, you know, look where you're going, right?
	So, why is this stuff important for you?
	I'm not saying it's not important, I'm just curious why it's important for you.
	To the point where you put your wife half in a chokehold, right?
	I mean, that's quite important, right?
	Yeah, no, I... It shouldn't be important.
	No, no, no. Please stop hedging.
	Just give me answers, man.
	Sorry. For God's sakes. Just why is it so important to you?
	We shouldn't... I'm mortal.
	I'm 57 years old.
	For God's sakes, I only have a certain amount of time left on this planet.
	If you're going to answer the questions, answer the questions.
	If you're not, let's not.
	Why is it so important to you?
	Not whether it should or shouldn't be, just why is it?
	I'm not disagreeing with you about the importance.
	I'm just curious why it's important to you.
	Because here's the funny thing, right?
	You say, oh, Steph, my wife doesn't listen to me.
	I'm trying my best to listen to you, brother.
	And you're making it really hard.
	Okay. You say you want to be listened to.
	I'm listening. I really am.
	I'm giving you what you want.
	I'm listening. Okay, so, why is it important to you that the cupboards are closed, or the dishes are put away in a certain time, or what?
	I mean, clearly it's not worth blowing up the marriage over, right?
	No, I feel invalidated over...
	Why is it important to you imperiling your marriage and making your wife frightened of you because you're putting her in half chokeholds?
	Why is it that important?
	I guess that's my question. I guess because I want to be in control.
	I don't know.
	In control of your wife?
	Of the relationship, of the family.
	Okay, so that just begs the question, why do you want to be in control?
	Because I was never in control of my childhood or my life until I... I decided to take control.
	Okay, and what do you mean when you said you decided to take control?
	What did that look like and what happened?
	Well, that was probably when I started listening to you.
	I mean, I actually took control of myself, my self-knowledge, tried to better myself,
	tried to understand and recognize my past traumas, why I did certain things.
	God, that's a load of nonsense.
	I'm so sorry. I really do apologize.
	But that is...
	Steph, if there's one thing I got from your show, it's the importance of controlling and bullying people and putting them in joke holes.
	That's what I really got from your show and your book.
	Come on. I mean, you've got to be kidding me, right?
	No, I don't know why it was so important.
	Okay, yeah, I just, like, let's not go down the road if this has anything to do with anything I've ever said, because what I'm about, I'm about honesty, reason, and...
	I didn't mean it like that.
	Well, no, no, and I'm not taking offense at it at all.
	I'm not taking offense at it at all.
	I'm just, like, that doesn't make sense.
	I was really quite surprised when I said, well, why were you physically aggressive with your wife and half-bullying her and half-putting her in a chokehold and making her frightened of you?
	And it's like, well, Steph, I got that from you.
	I'm like, I don't think you did.
	No, I definitely didn't.
	Okay, so that's fine and let's try that again.
	I don't know.
	I'm missing something. I just really...
	Okay. What happens when things aren't done in this way?
	Right? So what happens when you were a kid, right?
	When you were a kid, what happened when things didn't go this way?
	I was an actor and sometimes physically abused in Spain.
	Right. Okay. So when you were a kid, either with your mother or with your grandmother, then if you didn't do things in the right way, you would be physically attacked.
	Yeah. Okay. So then, when your wife didn't do things in, quote, the right way, you felt sort of great terror, anxiety, and horror, right?
	Yeah. Okay.
	So wouldn't that be the case?
	Isn't that sort of what that was?
	Yeah. I would say it was that.
	Okay. So, it was because you feared attack or anxiety was occurring because what your wife was doing would have triggered attacks against you as a child.
	And so you had to control her behavior, because through controlling her behavior, you were trying to control your own terror of prior attacks as a child.
	I'm sort of giving you a rough sketch.
	I guess I'm curious if that's something, if it's something along those lines.
	It definitely sounds right.
	To put it another way, it was kind of my inner mother and grandmother coming out.
	Well, you were trying to protect her in a way.
	Like you were trying to protect your wife, right?
	Yeah, I see. Yeah.
	Okay. So...
	Is this news to you?
	That was, yeah.
	All right. So...
	What's your relationship like with your grandmother?
	Not very good.
	It's better than it used to be.
	I did have a talk with her about her lack of accountability and her kind of treating us kids poorly when we were growing up.
	I kind of have a talk of defueling. I did for a while there and then she
	she's changed quite a bit since then probably not on a deep level but at least
	she doesn't nag at me she doesn't you.
	She treats me well.
	But there's no deep connection there still.
	you Okay. So, sorry, go ahead.
	No, go ahead.
	So, when did you have the conversation with her?
	Three years ago now.
	Three or four. Okay.
	And so, she did apologize, or sort of, how did that go?
	Yeah, she tried to kind of play the, oh, well, I did the best I could, and I said, no, you did not.
	She played that card, and I doubled down.
	I said, no, you did not.
	You did this, this, this, this.
	You know, you did drugs for all these years with your kids, and then you drank for however many...
	Oh, yeah.
	Gosh. I guess that's not too shocking, right?
	But the hits just keep on coming.
	She married my grandpa because he was her coke dealer.
	Oh gosh. Okay.
	And eventually, after quite a while of me trying to get my points across of what you did was unacceptable, she finally did apologize.
	Again, there's no deep connection between us, but we do talk and There's no nagging, no anything like that anymore.
	Okay. So your grandmother married or had children with her coke dealer, right?
	And she did drugs with her children, one of whom your mother shot herself in the leg and then killed herself, and then another who was your uncle was murdered in prison.
	Is that right? Okay.
	So she kind of destroyed her children, right?
	She did. Okay, I mean, I don't want to say things that are unfair, so if I've got anything wrong about that...
	No, she did. Okay. So, she destroyed your childhood, destroyed her children, and was somewhat abusive to you as a kid?
	I mean, do I have that right?
	Yeah, mostly neglectful, but abusive, for sure.
	And in what way was she abusive?
	And I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to make sure I understand.
	Um... She was the main one that was physically abusive.
	Up until, actually, I think I was 13, and I finally, I was...
	Well, you just got bigger, right?
	Well, exactly. No, I grabbed her hand and I said, you're never going to touch me again.
	And she didn't. Okay.
	So, do you believe in evil?
	Yes. Okay.
	Was she evil?
	Yes. Okay.
	And she's never taken ownership of it.
	She's never made restitution.
	She's never, as far as I understand it, and again, tell me if I'm incorrect about any of this, but that's not really happened, has it?
	No, not really.
	She has started to kind of take accountability for something, like I'll mention earlier.
	She'll say she did it as best as she can.
	And this was a while ago, granted.
	She would say that. And I said, actually, you know, you married your coke dealer.
	That's not doing the best you can.
	You chose to have children with this person who was physically abusive to you and children.
	And she would end up agreeing with that.
	But I think, thinking only to a point before she realizes that She's responsible for her children's deaths.
	I don't think she could ever really cross that line.
	I don't know what else.
	Okay. So, what's the benefit of having her?
	Is she around your kids at all?
	Yeah. Okay.
	Does she take care of your kids at all?
	No, they'll go out, they'll hang out with her for a couple hours, but that's it, really.
	Well, no, she takes care of your kids then, doesn't she?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, she does.
	Okay. And what do you think of that?
	Does that mean she's an unrepentant child abuser who married a coke dealer and was directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of two children?
	Yeah, I don't think that's good.
	So what's going on?
	To be 100% frank, I live in her house.
	When I was 21, she bought a house.
	I make 80% of the payment on it.
	So are you paying for her house?
	No, I live in the house.
	And she lives in essentially a grandmother's house out back, or mother-in-law's house out back.
	Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand.
	So she's living in a house with you, but you're paying 80% of the bills, or is that right?
	She doesn't live in the house.
	She lives on the property, and I pay all the household bills and everything.
	She does pay some of it, though.
	Okay. How long has this arrangement been going on?
	Five years.
	And why has this arrangement been going on?
	I...
	I think it's kind of a cop-out, but I can't afford to move anywhere else.
	Really? Can't afford...
	Can you afford to get divorced?
	No. So, the woman...
	I don't know.
	Do you consider your grandmother responsible, at least in part, for your mother's death?
	Yes. Okay.
	So, the woman who, is it fair to say, and it's your life, right, so I don't want to say anything out of turn, is it fair to say she half-killed your mother?
	Yes, okay So
	The woman who have killed your mother and then abused you You're living with her because of a bit of money
	Yeah, I guess so yeah Yeah.
	Yeah. Alright.
	I mean, I have no idea what to say about that.
	I have a fucking clue what to say about that.
	I mean, this woman's dangerous to children and you leave your children with her.
	I mean, I'm not saying that you should be afraid of her.
	You're absolutely correct.
	Well, no wonder she's triggering you with your wife.
	You're literally trying to protect your wife from the woman who attacked you for not doing things right, so you attack your wife for not doing things right.
	You're around a woman who raised criminals, suicide victims, people murdered in prison, and you're putting a chokehold, half a chokehold on your wife.
	This isn't a mystery, is it?
	No, not when you say anything like that.
	What are you doing man? I don't understand!
	Tell me what you're feeling You hear what I'm saying, right?
	Yeah, no, I hear you.
	What are you feeling at the moment?
	Um...
	I feel angry at myself that I've let this happen.
	I feel incredibly stupid.
	I mean, I mean you listen to me, right?
	Yeah.
	I don't know why I'm laughing.
	I don't know how I justified certain things in my own head, but...
	How does this come to be?
	How did this come to be?
	How did what exactly come to be done?
	This whole situation, you're living with your grandmother.
	Do you want to know my justification for it?
	I just want to know, how did this come about?
	You've been married for how long?
	Four years. Okay.
	So you move in with your grandmother when you're still dating the woman who becomes your wife.
	You move in with your grandmother with your first child, right?
	And your wife, the woman who becomes your wife, knows all about your history, I assume, knows all about your history with your grandmother, right?
	Yeah, if she didn't at first, I think she learned about it fairly quickly.
	Well, you were with her for a year or two by the time you moved in.
	Do I have that right? Yeah.
	Okay. So, I assume you've been listening to me for a long time, so I assume that you told, you said you had these deep conversations with your girlfriend and so on, so I assume that you talk about your history, right?
	Yeah. Yeah, we did.
	Okay. So, how does this come about?
	How do you move in When
	When I was a when I when I turned 21 I was kicked out of My
	Grandmother's husband's house.
	Not my maternal grandfather, but a different marriage.
	We had lived there while I was growing, while I was in high school.
	And I was kicked out of that house when I was 21.
	And my grandma took the opportunity, I say that loosely, to buy this house because I didn't have any credit.
	I didn't have anything like that.
	I didn't have any down payment.
	She bought the house as a first-time homeowner, quote-unquote.
	For me and the kids.
	The kid at the time.
	And why were you kicked out of your step-grandfather's house?
	And he was...
	He considered me to be very disrespectful and...
	A number of other words.
	He thought I was stupid for getting a girl pregnant when I was so young, which...
	That's a yeah, it was, but.
	Um, he didn't like that. I was disrespectful to his house and.
	I was nagged a lot by him as well.
	I'm sorry, you were what?
	I was nagged from him by him a lot as well.
	And he said, okay, you're 21.
	I was getting...
	I had a two- or three-year-old daughter at the time.
	It's time to go live on your own I don't know if that answered your question
	Okay, I think I've got it.
	I think I've got it. Alright.
	Okay, so you end up getting involved in this living situation with your grandmother, right?
	Yeah. Okay.
	And what did your girlfriend think about this.
	I don't know that we.
	you Really talked about it a whole lot.
	I know it was a couple...
	I think it was a year after we moved into this house that I had the big falling out with my grandma.
	It was shortly before that that I started talking to my wife about that, about everything.
	I go, I think I'm going to not see my grandma anymore, but at that time I'm already in the house.
	So I don't I don't know what she thought about it.
	You don't know? Okay, so she didn't have any particular opinions about it?
	No, she definitely wasn't down there.
	No. But, I mean, you guys did watch my shows and all that together, so, I mean, you couldn't have been completely ignorant of some of the risks in this approach.
	Do I have that right? Yeah, that's right.
	Okay. So you didn't really talk that much about the more important stuff?
	No. And again, I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm just trying to understand, right?
	Okay. So then you've spent the last five years subjecting yourself to this, right?
	Yeah. Okay.
	And do you think that has an effect on your marriage?
	Of course. Okay.
	And what effect do you think it's had?
	I think it's had a pretty big negative effect.
	I think it's had an effect on How I deal with my wife, obviously, and how I perceive my wife, I guess. Not, I guess, how I perceive my wife.
	Or maybe not how I perceive her, but how I treat her for sure.
	Definitely hasn't been a good experience.
	you Do you think it's possible to be the leader of your family in any area when you are in this kind of situation?
	No. What do you think happens to your level of respect from your wife when she sees you, in a sense, bowing down towards the woman who abused you?
	Yeah, it definitely decreases a lot.
	I think that could happen, right?
	Yeah. Okay.
	So, why?
	Why are you doing this? I mean, I get that there's some...
	I mean, is it something that your grandmother wants?
	Yeah. Okay, and what does she like about it?
	About the living situation?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah. That she gets to see her great-grandchildren.
	Okay. And...
	So she wants it, and I suppose that you go with what she wants, right?
	Because what happens if you say no?
	Yeah, I get attacked.
	Okay. So you do what she wants, to some degree, out of fear.
	Is that right? Yeah.
	Okay. And so you're pleasing her because she's scary.
	Listen, I understand that.
	I mean, I'm not a big critic of this.
	I just want to make sure, again, that I sort of understand, right?
	Yeah, I would say that's true.
	There might be... Well, I would say a while ago, not any time recently, but when I was growing up, there was definitely a white knight complex that I was trying to help my grandma with all the things she was dealing with, with the deaths of her children and everything.
	Obviously, now I know better than that.
	Okay. So, I'm a little frustrated because I sort of feel like you're just like, eh, well, you know, this, that, and the other, and this, that, and the other.
	I mean, it seems to me that your children are dangling on the precipice of divorce and you're sliding over into a really messed up part of your life where your children are going to suffer.
	I feel like I'm the only one who gives a shit in the conversation.
	I'm sorry. I don't need to go that way.
	No, no, I'm not asking you to apologize.
	I'm just telling you, like, It's, I feel like I'm just sort of poking and prodding you and you're just kind of inert.
	Like I'm trying to get some, I don't know, I'm not trying to like get emotion out of you, it's just I find it a little bit bewildering.
	No, I'm just, I'm trying not to cry.
	Well, why? Why the hell are you doing that?
	Isn't this something to cry about?
	My children's life, yeah, it is.
	Okay, so why are you trying not to cry?
	Because when I was younger and I cried, I'd get attacked even more.
	Okay, so why are you treating me like a child abuser?
	Why would you call me up and then treat me like a child abuser?
	I mean, I'm not that guy, right? Didn't you call me precisely because I'm not that guy?
	Yeah, you are. So...
	Why are you...
	Because, you know, why are you treating me that way?
	Sorry, I don't mean to be.
	No, no, no. Sorry, that is...
	The I don't mean is back to intentions, right?
	I can only... Okay.
	Yeah, I can only judge you by what you do.
	And I'm not offended, I'm not critical, I'm not mad, I'm just sort of pointing it out, right?
	That it's really tough to care about someone's life more than they do.
	No, I do care.
	Okay? So, if you're crying or you're feeling upset about this, what's going on in your heart that this is occurring?
	What would you cry about, if that makes sense?
	I'm not saying you don't have anything to cry about, but what specifically?
	I'm extremely sad that I let this happen for so many years that I knew I shouldn't
	let my grandma be around my kids.
	I shouldn't be around her, so why should I let my kids?
	I'm terrified of what's going to happen with my kids if me and my wife get a divorce.
	I know it's gonna damage them.
	I'm angry at myself that I let things get to this point that I
	I didn't stand up to her.
	Okay, what happens if you stand up to her in your mind?
	What's the worst case scenario?
	100% I'll be kicked out of my house.
	Sorry, is it your house or her house?
	I didn't quite understand that.
	It's her house. Okay, you're paying 80% of the bills, right?
	So let's say you get kicked out of her house, right?
	Mm-hmm. Okay, well, you can still pay.
	I mean, you have to maybe get a slightly smaller place or whatever, but you can still afford a place, right?
	I might be able to.
	Yeah, I could probably afford a place.
	No, come on. Okay, let me ask you this.
	How many bedrooms are in the house?
	Okay, so four bedrooms, right?
	So you've got four bedrooms, and so maybe you've got to move to a three-bedroom place, right?
	Yeah. Right, because you're still paying 80% of the bills.
	If you were paying 0% of the bills, I could understand that, but you're still paying 80% of the bills, right?
	Mm-hmm. Okay?
	So you could afford a place not with your mother, right?
	Yeah. I mean, do I have that right?
	Yeah, I could.
	Okay, so what else?
	Now that I think about it, my kids would probably be a lot better off.
	Well, they're certainly better off than if their parents go through a divorce, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And sorry, just give me, are you in your late 20s at the moment?
	Mid-20s? Yeah, late 20s.
	Late 20s, okay. So when do you think it's time to start living with grandmommy?
	Do you have a plan for that?
	Is that something that you're thinking about?
	Or is it just like, nope?
	Um...
	I guess I was...
	It sounds really mean, but it's towards her, so I guess it's really mean.
	I guess I was just waiting for her to die.
	Ah, is she unwell?
	Uh, she has in the past few years.
	Okay. And how long would you guess she still has?
	At max, five years.
	Okay. And your brother's dead, right?
	Does she have anyone else to leave the house to?
	No. Are you concerned that if you move out, she will...
	Burn the house down? Will she give it to charity?
	Like, what will happen to the house if...
	Sorry, go ahead.
	The house isn't a mortgage, so it'd be foreclosed on.
	Oh, sorry, the house has a mortgage?
	Correct. Yes, it does.
	Okay. So, if you leave, she can't afford the house.
	Yeah. Okay, and why doesn't she have any savings?
	Why hasn't she paid off the house?
	I mean, she's in her 80s?
	Yes, and because she never saved a dime in her life.
	Okay, so she's been a spender?
	Yep. Because she was also married, and she left her husband?
	Mm-hmm. Is that right?
	Okay. So she didn't plan for her old age, and she didn't keep a man around who would be able to help her support herself in her old age.
	She didn't save for her old age.
	She didn't invest. And so I'm a little lost as to how this is your problem.
	It's not. And now that I think about it, I would bet that her...
	Ex-husband would let her live in the house that he kicked me out of.
	I'm sorry, I didn't follow that.
	Can you repeat that? I would not.
	I would bet that her ex-husband would let her live in the house that he kicked me out of.
	Oh, so he's got a spare house?
	Pretty much, yeah. Okay.
	So if she has no assets, what are you hoping to get when she's dead?
	Take over the mortgage, I guess.
	But you're paying 80% of it anyway.
	Yeah, I have taken it over.
	Okay. So you've put money into the house, and you're concerned that if you leave, the money you've put in the house will be lost?
	That, and I don't know.
	In the area I'm in, I pay very, very little compared to what rent costs and what...
	If I were to take out a mortgage, it would cost.
	I know I could afford a place.
	I don't know.
	That was very thought out.
	Yeah. I've put a lot of money into this place.
	And you've put money into the place in the hopes that you are going to get the money out of it when your mother dies, then you take over the mortgage and you get the money back.
	Is that right? Yeah.
	Okay, and roughly how much I mean ten thousand fifty thousand a hundred thousand how much money have you put
	into the place?
	Now probably 15,000 and I know what you're gonna say next No, $15,000 is not worth my kid's future.
	Oh, it's a lot of money.
	How much does a divorce cost?
	Probably a lot more than that.
	Well, I mean, A, yes, and B, there is no price, because it's harmful to your kids, right?
	Okay. Does your wife agree with your decision to put money into the house and stay in the house?
	I don't know, but I don't think she would.
	What do you mean you don't know?
	This is where you live. What do you mean you don't know?
	She has no opinion about where you live?
	No, she likes the house, and, you know, it's a nice house.
	It's a house that we live in.
	But I guess I haven't talked to her recently about, hey, maybe we could find somewhere else to live.
	Okay, so she likes living in the house.
	She's no problem with your grandmother.
	Yeah. Well, she...
	She knows who my grandmother is and she avoids her.
	So she doesn't like your grandmother?
	No. Okay.
	So if she doesn't like your grandmother, why is your grandmother taking care of her kids sometimes?
	Because I've let it happen.
	Well, no, no. She's a mother too, right?
	Yeah, we have let it happen.
	Okay. It's more convenient that way.
	She prefers the place to keeping her kids out of a malign influence or a negative influence, right?
	She likes having the place and if it leads to you know, maybe your grandmother's mean to your kids. Maybe there's a
	divorce That's she's willing to take that risk, right?
	Or are you guys just drifting along like leaves on a stream not making any particular decisions at all
	you I think the past year or so we've kind of just been
	Coasting along and it makes now that you say that because she took the kids to her mom's house
	Oh when she just let and I Yeah, and I didn't put two and two together. But yeah, no
	that makes a lot of sense I don't think he is okay with the situation because you can't
	be a man in your grandmother's house You can't be a husband, you can't be a father, you can't be a leader in your grandmother's house.
	It's impossible. I couldn't.
	No one. The Rock couldn't.
	No one could. Conan the Barbarian would turn into Pee Wee Herman in your grandmother's house.
	Yeah. You follow?
	Yeah. Now, here's the thing about life.
	If you don't make the decisions, life makes the decisions for you.
	If you don't choose, life chooses for you.
	If you don't choose your life...
	Life will just make your decisions for you.
	And in this case, your wife is making a decision for you.
	Now, why did she want the kids in your marital bed for years and years?
	To protect them.
	No. Maybe, but not primarily.
	I mean, it's not like your grandmother is going to sneak in and do sacrificial acts on them in the dark, right?
	So why does your wife wants your kids in the marital bed.
	Can you use a turn of phrase because i haven't left the nest.
	Okay, that's all very abstract.
	What's the more immediate and practical effects of having kids in the marital bed?
	Come on, man. Oh, oh, yeah.
	If you want to have kids in the marital bed.
	So there's no marital sex.
	Yes, you have no sex life. Because she doesn't want to have sex with you.
	Yeah. I mean, am I wrong?
	How's your sex life been?
	Okay. You're not having much sex, are you?
	Right. So she, because, you know, what is it that gets women to get the kids out of the marital bed?
	Because they want to have sex with their husbands, right?
	Yeah. So she's keeping the kids in the marital bed to keep you away.
	Now, you can't address that directly, so you nag her about sleeping habits and, you know, what's best.
	Like, it's just avoiding the issue, right?
	The issue is she needs the kids in bed to keep you away from her.
	Yeah. I mean, again, I'm guessing.
	I could be wrong. Nope.
	Nope, because even still, when she does want to be away from me, she'll go sleep in the kids' bed.
	What do you mean when she wants to be away from you?
	Like, if she's angry at me or...
	She told me last week that she was going to go stay with her parents and then didn't leave until yesterday.
	Or, yeah, yesterday.
	And that whole time she was sleeping in the kids' room instead of in the bed.
	Okay. So anytime she's upset with me, she'll definitely leave the marital bed.
	And, you know, I'm sorry to be so blunt, but, I mean, are you in a mostly sexless marriage?
	No, it's definitely not mostly sexless.
	It's not as much as I'd like, but it's not sexless.
	Okay. So, like, once a month, twice a month, once a week?
	Once a week. Once a week, okay.
	So... I assume that's down from earlier, right?
	No, of course. You've got three kids, so that's sort of understandable.
	It's kind of tricky, but I assume that's down from before, right?
	Yeah, it definitely is.
	Got it. Okay. And, of course, a way that you guys would be able to have more sex is if the kids weren't in the room, right?
	Obviously, right? Yeah.
	Okay. So, do you think that's the wrestle that's going on deep down?
	With me? No, between you guys.
	Yeah, I definitely think so on my part and I think that's played a big part in the resentment I hold for her.
	Because even I woke up that morning before she texted me and when I woke up alone I articulated my thoughts as The marital bed was betrayed.
	When she left?
	So, when she slept in the kids' room.
	Okay. So, I definitely could...
	Yeah, that's definitely an issue on my part.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	That I feel lack of sex and...
	And have you guys had any conversations about lack of sex?
	Yeah. And I got better for a couple months and then kind of waned back down.
	Now, is it also the case that, I mean, are there reasons?
	Like, she's just tired and exhausted and hiding from your grandma and, you know, she's got to take care of three kids?
	And, like, is it some of that stuff, too?
	It's just a phase in the marriage where there's going to be less physical intimacy because you've just got the three kids, right?
	No, I think it's a choice because we still would go to bed at the same time.
	We'd put on a cell or watch a movie, and we would still be together in the bed, but we wouldn't be having sex or even making...
	Okay, so when you talk to your wife about sexual frustration and so on, is it like, I don't know, I hate to say, you owe me sex, I'm your husband, and let's get this going?
	Or is it like, what's going on that I'm feeling less attractive?
	And is there something that I can do to help with that?
	Or like, how do those conversations go?
	I would say for a while it was a lot of, you know, I need sex.
	I'm a man. I need more sex.
	My sex drive is high.
	And then once we did have that, we had an honest conversation.
	You basically put yourself forward as, here's another list of chores and you need to add me.
	You add me to the chore list.
	Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
	Right. Okay. But then we had an open conversation and like, hey, it really does make me feel less attractive to you when you deny me.
	So if you...
	Don't want to, that's, you know, let's say that, but I guess I don't need to get into the details of the conversation, but when we had an open conversation, that's when things did start to ramp back up.
	Okay. And then didn't?
	Yeah. Okay. Got it.
	Got it. Okay.
	And when was the last time that you felt that your wife was genuinely
	Attracted lusty enthusiastic about physical time with you Probably about six months ago
	Oh, so that's not too bad.
	But yeah, no, it was kind of a one-off that I felt that way.
	Okay, sorry. Let me just then say on a consistent basis, not like...
	Okay, on a consistent basis, probably three and a half years.
	Okay, got it.
	And so one of the ways that this sort of happens is that If women aren't getting what they want emotionally in the relationship, men end up not getting what they want physically in the relationship, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, it does.
	So what is your wife not getting emotionally in the relationship that she needs or wants?
	I mean, has she expressed that kind of stuff to you, or is it sort of a, would you guess?
	I would have to guess.
	I could probably guess somewhat accurately.
	Okay, so she's not said to you, Here's what I'm missing emotionally in the relationship, and you've not asked her.
	Correct, and I think she hasn't asked because she's scared of altercation with me.
	Altercation meaning what? Not the chokehold thing, right?
	No, no, meaning...
	Uh...
	I guess an argument, but not a healthy argument, more of us bickering back and forth at each other until it turns to...
	Okay, so what would she say, as you can guess, right?
	So what would she say is missing for her emotionally in the relationship?
	I can tell you she doesn't feel supported emotionally.
	Okay, but I'm not sure what that means.
	Sorry, I'll give an example.
	When she started going back to school, she was super excited about it, and I kind of just blew her off.
	I was like, oh yeah, that's fine.
	And I can tell you why I did that, but I don't think it mattered.
	Sorry, when she wanted to go back to school, you blew it all off?
	Tell me a little about that.
	Yeah, she wanted to go back to school, and I guess I, well, I didn't want, part of me didn't want her to, because that means less time with the family, less time for myself with her.
	I'm sorry, when did she decide that she wants to go back to school?
	About a year ago. Okay.
	Now, do you know why she wanted to go back to school?
	She told me that she wanted to go back to school so that way when the youngest is old enough for school that she could go to work.
	Okay. And your youngest is how old again?
	She's three now.
	Okay. And I assume, am I right in assuming that your kids stay home, did not go to daycare, right?
	Correct. Yes.
	Okay. So there's another couple of years of parenting your youngest before your youngest goes to school, right?
	Yep, and my middle is starting school this year.
	Okay. So why does she want to go back to school now?
	Is it because it will be a couple of years for her to complete some coursework so she can work?
	Yeah. Okay.
	So how were things...
	Sorry, just remind me, how long ago was it she decided to go back to...
	A year, right? You said a year?
	About a year, yeah. Okay.
	So what bad thing happened in your relationship a year ago?
	I don't...
	Prior to that, I... I quit my...
	I quit a job I was with for about seven years.
	Two years ago.
	Or a year and a half ago.
	And then I went to go work for this place and I absolutely hated it.
	I... I was probably chronically upset and irritable with her.
	I found a new place about a year ago, but I would assume that's probably what led her to seek work.
	I was making less money doing worse work and being more irritable all the time.
	Okay. I obviously don't know your wife's motivations, but my first guess would be that that's when she decided she was probably going to leave.
	Probably, yeah, no, 100%, because she, about 10 months ago, right before she decided to go back to school, or right after one of the two, She did go stay with her mom for a couple days, but she made it seem like it wasn't a serious issue.
	Her complaints were my criticisms and my overall attitude towards her, which...
	I think I have worked on at least a little bit.
	My criticisms, at least, I have not been criticizing her as much.
	And sorry, if you criticize her, what sort of stuff would you say?
	Would you call her names or what sort of stuff would you say?
	No, no. I would criticize, again, if dishes weren't done, oh, well, look at that, dishes aren't done again.
	Oh, so you were kind of passive-aggressive and sarcastic?
	Yeah, yeah. Which is an unbelievably weak position as a male, right?
	Correct. Right, it's very indirect.
	It's womanly, right?
	Yeah, it is. Unless she has very strong lesbian tendencies, she's probably going to find that extremely unattractive.
	Yeah. Okay. All right.
	So, probably about a year ago, she says, well, crap, this might not work out.
	I've got to have a source of income.
	Yeah. So then she starts going back to school, and this is all very indirect, right?
	You've got to read the tea leaves. Yeah, and then she got a part-time job or a source of income about a month ago when she thought things were definitely not...
	And so when she's working, who's taking care of your kids?
	I am. Well, what about you working?
	We made the schedule work out to where when I get home from work, she would go to work.
	Sometimes she would leave a couple hours early and she would take our kids to her mom's.
	Okay. And how's your relationship with her mom?
	I like her mom.
	We don't have the best relationship.
	I feel like she's always not really...
	Liked me, so I've kind of just kept my distance there.
	I don't know whether...
	I guess I can't say that's a good relationship, but it's not a bad relationship either.
	Wait, you haven't won over your wife's mom?
	Are you crazy? You need to win over your wife's mom if she's around, right?
	Because what happens otherwise What happens
	Well your wife gets mad at you ghost your mom, what does the mom say
	you you
	Yeah, I don't know.
	You should probably leave him.
	How does her mom get along with your grandmother?
	They don't. I think they've only met a few times.
	Well, they have only met a few times.
	And I've never asked her what she thinks about my grandma, but I don't think it's a very high opinion.
	And what does your mother-in-law think about you and your wife living with your grandmother?
	She probably does not like it at all.
	And I don't know how much of my background or my grandma's history she knows, but I don't think she doesn't like it.
	How often has your wife gone to her mother's in upset?
	you Just twice. Now, when she left, what was it, a week ago?
	Uh, yesterday she left the house, but about a week ago she left, well, I say she left the relationship.
	She wouldn't talk to me, she wouldn't look at me, she would stay in the kids' room.
	And was there something, sorry, if you mentioned this, was there something very specific that happened?
	No. Okay.
	So if there wasn't something specific that happened, then I assume that she's been working with her mother to get to a safe haven.
	Yeah. Yeah, definitely.
	Okay. And so yesterday she left, and that's when you emailed me, is that right?
	No, I emailed you on Tuesday or Wednesday last week when she told me she was going to go stay with her mom.
	Right, right. Okay, got it.
	Okay. So...
	Has she communicated to you that she wants a divorce?
	She hasn't directly said she wants a divorce.
	I asked her if she was at the point of a divorce and she said yes, I think so.
	And then I've talked to her since then asking if she's sure that there's no reconciliation here.
	Sorry, what do you mean you're asking her?
	I've texted her mostly, but we had one talk since this happened.
	Sorry, what do you mean you're asking her?
	I mean, it's very passive, right?
	Yeah, it is. It is passive.
	So you're like asking her what her decision is going to be?
	Like, just tell me what the rest of my life is going to be like?
	I don't understand. Like, do you want her back?
	Yeah, I do. Okay.
	Have you told her, folded on your knees, begged her, promised to change, I'll go to therapy, I'll do what I mean?
	I literally have. Okay.
	So you have begged her all of that, and when did that happen?
	On Thursday.
	Okay?
	And she didn't want that.
	I mean, sorry, she didn't accept the offer.
	She didn't say, okay, let's give it a try.
	No, and the last thing she had said is that she's still going to go stay with her mom for a while, and she's going to talk to some counsel.
	You mean like a lawyer?
	Yeah. No, no.
	Oh, a counselor? Pretty much, yeah.
	Okay, like a therapist. A pastor.
	Oh, a pastor. A pastor.
	Okay, got it, got it. Okay, and from one to ten, how much do you want the marriage to continue?
	Ten. Okay. So, what can you do to have her understand how important this is for you?
	I can talk to you for one.
	I can do counseling.
	I can talk to the church that we attend.
	Those are all objective things that I can do.
	I can do subjective things.
	I can tell her. But that's not going to mean as much as showing her.
	Yeah, and you said that you weren't even sure what her unmet emotional needs were.
	Yeah, I could ask for that.
	So that's really fucking lazy, bro.
	Like, that's just, I gotta tell you, that's just straight up lazy.
	No. Right? I mean, if you're in a relationship with someone, you have to know what they like and what they don't like, what they...
	What's missing for them? What's excessive for them?
	I mean, you have to... She's your customer, right?
	You're providing the service called husband and father and she's your customer and you don't have a clue what she's
	unhappy about or you just have to kind of guess?
	No, I know what she's unhappy about I just... She hasn't told me.
	I've tried to ask her the simple stuff like, hey, what is your love language?
	I want to appreciate you and your love language.
	I don't want everything to be in my love language.
	No, no, but you know what she's unhappy about.
	So why are you asking her what she's unhappy about if you know what she's unhappy about?
	I mean, if I go into the doctor with a big cut on the back of my hand, and he says, what's the problem?
	Where does it hurt? Wouldn't I be a little alarmed at the doctor?
	Yeah, you definitely would.
	Okay, so if you know what's missing for her, and that's like she feels nervous, she feels scared, you put her in these half chokeholds, you're passive-aggressive, you complain, you criticize, you nag, right?
	Is it that kind of stuff, right? Yeah.
	Okay, and how long have you been doing that stuff?
	Probably three years.
	It's...
	Okay, so for three years, she's been sort of nagged and criticized, and there's been the passive-aggressive, some chokeholdy stuff, and that kind of stuff.
	She's scared and doesn't want you walking behind her, and she's got a bunch of kids, right?
	So she's worn out.
	Yeah, she is. Yeah, she's just worn out, right?
	She's like, I can't manage my husband and all of these children.
	He's supposed to be there to reduce my workload, and in some ways, he's just increasing it, right?
	I definitely have been increasing it.
	Okay. So, I mean, obviously, you can't make someone's life more difficult for three years and not have them want to crawl or chew their way out of your life, right?
	Okay. So, when did you first realize that she was having a negative experience of you overall?
	I mean, every now and then, it's occasional, right?
	But in general, when did you first begin to realize, or when did you first notice, gee, I'm kind of naggy and passive-aggressive and a little chokeholdy, or, like, when did you first notice that?
	About a year ago. Okay.
	So for two years you did it and didn't notice it?
	Yeah. Really?
	Honestly, I mean, if you tell me, so you just didn't notice it?
	You didn't notice that you were criticizing her or nagging her or...
	No, I would say I noticed that I was criticizing and nagging her, but I didn't realize how it was affecting her.
	No, no, that's a lie.
	Come on, man. Don't, don't, don't.
	I mean, you can't criticize people and think it's affecting them positively, right?
	Yeah. You can't nag people and think they're having a great fucking time, right?
	Yeah. Okay, so you were nagging her and you were criticizing her while she's also being a stepmother to your daughter, right?
	Yeah. And has she worked hard at that to give your daughter a positive experience?
	Yes. Okay, so she took on your child as well as having two more, and she's worked fairly diligently to try and be a good stepmother.
	Is that right? Yes.
	She has been a great stepmother.
	And you now get criticized, right?
	Okay. So, I guess my question is, and this is the question you're going to have to answer to your wife, is why the fuck didn't you just stop?
	Like seriously, life is sometimes not that complicated.
	I keep nagging my wife, and she stepped in to become a stepmother, which is a hell of a thing to do, right?
	It's a very tough thing to do, particularly a daughter, right?
	So she stepped in to be a stepmother.
	She's from a less dysfunctional family than yours, right?
	Yeah. Which would not be hard, right?
	So, a couple of years ago, you realize, or you know, that you're nagging her and criticizing her and all of that.
	So, why don't you just shut your mouth?
	Seriously, why don't you just stop?
	I'm not saying that's like a simple, but just stop.
	I don't know. Well, you do know.
	You do know. You do know.
	Because obviously that's the one thing you'd do if you could go back in time, is just put a toilet plunger on your mouth and say, shut up!
	Stop talking! Don't do it!
	Right?
	Do you want to know why you didn't stop?
	Okay. I could be wrong.
	But here's what I think.
	Because old granny wanted her out.
	Because she don't like granny too much, does she?
	No. So old granny wanted your wife out.
	And you're used to pleasing granny, right?
	Yeah. So you nagged your wife the same way your grandmother nagged you.
	Because your grandmother wants your wife out of the house.
	Yeah, she does.
	Right. So that's why you didn't stop, and that's the price of living with grandmother, right?
	She runs your life.
	Yeah. And I'm not blaming you for that.
	I mean, she was the boss of you growing up and not a great boss either, right?
	So, Granny runs her life.
	Granny doesn't want your wife in the house.
	Granny knows exactly how to get.
	Now, Granny can't criticize your wife directly.
	You know that, right? Yep.
	Why not? Yep. Why can't your grandmother criticize your wife directly?
	Why does she have to go through you? Because then I'd back up my wife.
	Yeah, because then you guys would get closer together and then you'd both leave.
	So Granny can't criticize your wife directly because that drives you and your wife closer together and then you both leave, right?
	So Granny can't get your wife to criticize you because she doesn't have the same power over your wife that she has over you.
	So Granny gets you to criticize your wife.
	Now... Did your grandmother ever complain about your wife not putting the dishes away or not doing things in the right way or leaving the cupboards open?
	Did your grandmother complain to you about that?
	Yeah, constantly.
	Okay, so your grandmother, you understand, this is just your grandmother complains to you, you complain to your wife, your wife leaves.
	So granny gets you all to herself and she doesn't have to worry about you moving out because you sure as shit aren't going to move out if you've got to pay for a divorce.
	So, does this make sense? It does.
	Completely. And that's why I say it's probably not the wisest idea to have toxic and dysfunctional people in your life.
	I'm not kidding about this stuff.
	You're like somebody staring at a giant wall of black mold saying, I have some lung problems.
	Or no shit. Staring you in the face?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Because if you want your wife back, you have to explain why you've been... a nag.
	And she's got to know what the hell was going on and how it's going to change.
	Because if it's just like, no, I'll change, right?
	She's going to be like, well, why the hell did it take me moving out for you to say you're going to change?
	That's not good. Yeah.
	And it's not. Whereas if you say, I didn't realize that I was, you know, the puppet master of my grandmother, and she nags at me, I nag at you, because I've got all this historical trauma, and I didn't listen to that crazy bald guy up there in Canada.
	And so, you know, this is what happened, and I'm absolutely wretched, and I don't care, you know, what we have to do, but we're not living here.
	You know, it's...
	I don't know if it's...
	I'm sure it's subconscious.
	But the past few weeks, I have been contemplating selling everything I own.
	Not to move, but to try to start a business.
	That was why I wanted to do that.
	But I think subconsciously, I knew.
	Yeah, I think so.
	I think so. And, you know, maybe it's time for your grandmother to stop messing up your life.
	Half killing your mom, half killing your uncle, through that daisy chain, half killing your brother or a quarter killing your brother.
	Like, I don't know, maybe it's time for her to stop fucking up children's lives.
	Yeah, it is.
	But that's up to you.
	No, it is. And, I mean, given that you're, you know, on your way to 30 years old, it's not really specifically her fault anymore, right? No.
	So? It's not.
	Yeah, I mean, I would certainly, if I were in your shoes, I'd talk to a therapist and I would try and figure all of this out.
	I personally would not...
	Tell any of this to your grandmother.
	I would just start making alternative plans and so on.
	Because if you start to engage with her, I imagine she's going to bring out the heavy guns and you don't need that right now when you're trying to get your family back.
	So I would try and minimize it with regards to her and just say, you know, I'm going to try and figure this stuff out and, you know, maybe it's not great for me to be living in this house and she's going to be like, but where am I going to go and what am I going to do?
	It's like, you know, look, I'm really, I have a lot of sympathy and maybe I can help you out at some point, but I got to look out for my own kids.
	Yeah. And something that makes a lot more sense now, yesterday, my grandma, she came in and talked to me for a minute.
	And she was like, hey, I know something's going on between you and your wife, and I want you to know that I'm here for you.
	Right. And if that doesn't tell me everything, I need to know.
	Yeah, I'm not here for you both.
	I'm just here for you.
	Right, right, right. So, yeah, I think that's the major stuff.
	What do you think? It feels like a window's been opened and I can see everything now.
	And the speech, you know, to your wife, I have no idea what you should say to your wife, but I think it has something to do with the decision that we have to make is what's best for the children.
	And I have not been serving what's best for the children.
	I have not been serving what's best for you.
	I think I get it, right?
	She's obviously more than welcome to listen to this.
	And if she wants to talk to me, I'm obviously happy to chat with her as well, if that helps.
	Because, you know, you've got three lovely children who are completely innocent in all of this and who have suffered quite a lot.
	I mean, your eldest in particular, right?
	So, whatever can be done to break the cycle, but, you know, obviously, if things can be worked out, right?
	So, the speech is something like, I'm absolutely committed to working things out.
	I have been wrong, and I've been a jerk, and I have been weak, and I get that, and I understand it.
	You know the trauma.
	I didn't deal with it the right way.
	I get that. I'm going to go to therapy.
	But if we can work things out, that is infinitely better for the children.
	And I think we owe it to the children to really, really try.
	And I have not really tried.
	I get it now.
	I'm really sorry it had to get to this point.
	I'm absolutely ashamed at this.
	I get your desperation.
	I'm doing completely retarded things like putting you in these What is it?
	Triangle Hole? Half Nelson is what I, maybe we used to call it or whatever, right?
	Yeah. Yeah. So, like, I mean, that's just beyond wrong.
	And it's, you know, it's not a joke.
	It's not funny. You do, you need your oxygen.
	I get that. Yeah.
	But if things can potentially be worked out, and I think they can be, but if things can be potentially worked out, that is for the best.
	That is the best outcome for the children.
	And we need to go and have a life of our own.
	Thank you.
	What's best for my family?
	I haven't been the right kind of leader.
	I haven't been the right kind of protector, and I've been a bit of an uncertain provider.
	And you've not been happy for long enough, for a long time, and I haven't really been inquiring about that.
	And that's because I knew, deep down, I think, that you being unhappy with stuff would have to do with my grandmother, and I didn't want to confront her.
	So, that's history.
	Obviously, I had a really terrible and terrifying childhood, and I've still got to kick off some issues.
	I've got to kick loose some issues around that, which I'm absolutely committed to doing, because we have to be better than our parents were towards our own children, and that means doing everything we possibly can to stay together, which is what I'm absolutely committed to do, and I'm so wretched and sorry about not Listening to you, taking care of your heart, supporting you in the right way, and having you feel safe and happy and secure in my arms.
	And I don't know exactly what you would say, but if she really, really gets that, because look, I mean, you and I can speak frankly, right?
	Yeah. So look, man, she goes out into the world.
	She's in her 20s too, right?
	Yeah. Yeah.
	Right, so she goes out into the world.
	She's got two kids, right?
	Yeah. Maybe she'd maintain a relationship with your eldest or your daughter, your first daughter.
	Maybe that would be the case.
	Maybe not or whatever, right? So she's got two kids.
	And what, is she going to go out and try and date?
	Yeah. Does she think that this...
	Because a lot of times women get a little confused about this, and, you know, maybe she won't or whatever, right?
	But they think, well, you know, I mean, obviously she was sexy, hot, and attractive enough for you to jump her bones back in the day, right?
	And so a lot of times women have this vague feeling, which is completely wrong or false, that...
	Because they got massive amounts of male attention when they were younger, if they divorce some guy, then that'll just happen again.
	And it won't.
	Right? I mean, you both have wrecked your sexual market value in the dating world.
	Yep. Which is why you should stay with each other, if at all possible.
	Because what's out there is celibacy or crappy men.
	That's all that's waiting for her out there.
	Is celibacy or being used?
	Well, but if she's not together with you, which is why I think it's really worth trying to work everything out, I mean, obviously for the kids, for each other, for the future, but, I mean, if you then have two failed relationships with the mothers of your children, I'm telling you, man, there's nothing out there for you.
	I know. Like, you guys have each other, or it's monk and nunnery time.
	Like, once you decide to have kids together, the only people who are going to be floating around you guys are, I mean, to be perfectly frank, really desperate, sad and broken people, or creeps who want access to your kids.
	Yeah. I mean, I've seen it close up.
	I've seen it close up. My mother, who was a beautiful young woman, she just thought that was gonna, you know, hey, I'll just leave your father and I'll just go out and get another husband.
	It's like, really? Really?
	And she never, ever, ever, ever got a stable relationship after that.
	No, I mean, you know, I guess some people claim to be able to do it and, you know, whatever, right?
	Yeah, but some people win the lottery, but you still should save your retirement, right?
	Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, there's nothing out there.
	Like, there's nothing that's out there.
	Like, you in particular, but, you know, her as well, there's nothing.
	It's going to be just wretched.
	I mean, your hearts are going to be broken.
	It's going to take you years to recover.
	Your kids aren't going to want you to date anyone new.
	No one of any quality is going to want to get involved in this kind of mess.
	And that's it, I mean, for the rest of your life.
	This is you and your wife.
	That's your chance at love. Again, there are some wild exceptions, but they're so rare that they're not really worth considering.
	The exception is not the rule.
	Yeah, yeah. So your chance for love, your chance for actual pair bonding is with the mother of your children and hers is with the father of her children.
	What else is out there?
	And this is why you can't ever take that for granted, but I just don't want either of you to have the illusion that, well, I'll just go find somebody better.
	And it's like, nope. That's not going to happen, right?
	This is an old Samuel, Kevin Samuels thing, where he's like, a woman can't do better than the man she gave children to.
	Like, she's not going to go out there and find someone better.
	Now, maybe she just wants to be completely alone for the rest of her life, but that's 60 years, man.
	That's a long-ass time to be alone, and that's also not good for the kids, right?
	Because they need to see a relationship that's functional, so.
	I would move every burden and cross every mountain and swim every sea to make this work.
	And hopefully, with these kinds of insights, you can at least...
	At least then it's not incomprehensible as to what happened, if that makes sense.
	And once it's comprehensible, it's less scary and you know what actions to take.
	Yeah. No, it makes sense now.
	All right. Okay, man, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	I will. All right.
	I appreciate the call. Is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	No, thank you so much, Stefan.
	All right, man. Go in peace.
	Talk to your wife. Love you.

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