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Sept. 24, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:39:51
How to Save a Stolen Soul! Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Hello.
Hey, good morning.
How you doing?
Hey, good morning.
I'm doing all right.
How about you?
I am well.
I am well.
Thank you.
So I'm all ears.
Thank you for your flexibility.
Sorry about earlier.
And yeah, lay it on me.
How can I best help?
Is the audio okay?
Yeah, it's great.
Thank you.
Awesome.
I guess I'll just start by reading the response.
I would like to discuss some serious personality traits that are holding me back from achieving my goals.
You're welcome.
So yeah, break it out for me.
I'm all ears.
a career as well as growing in virtue. These traits include lack of assertiveness, indecisiveness,
laziness, addiction, and more. These issues are extremely prevalent in the realms of dating,
school, and I also want to add in work in there as well. I would like to gain some clarity on
my upbringing to help understand why I'm so dysfunctional.
If nothing changes, I think I'll be in serious trouble. And thank you for all that you
do. You're welcome. So yeah, break it out for me. I'm all ears. Sure. I guess I'll start with the
current situation that I find myself in.
In terms of schooling, even though I'm the age of a... even though I should be a junior, I barely have enough credits to surpass being a freshman.
Sorry, a junior where?
Like in college, or?
Yes, yes.
Okay, yes, I just want to make sure that you're an adult.
Okay, just checking.
Okay, go ahead.
But for the past two years I've been skipping classes and not doing the coursework that's required of me in order to pass and to do well.
I'm just kind of finding myself in a very stagnant position.
In terms of dating, I'll be blunt, I've never had the guts to ask out a girl or anything like that.
Me being three years into adulthood and whatnot.
I'm sorry, three years what?
Three years into adulthood.
Got it, okay.
And those are the two, like the two primary issues in my life right now.
What's your field of study?
I'm undecided.
But you have to be taking some courses in something, right?
Yes, it's I guess generally like a liberal arts degree.
And why are you doing that?
I mean, I guess my thought process is that to get all these prereqs done and whatnot until I decide what I want to further study, I guess.
want to further study I guess. Right, okay. And you are, you said, skipping coursework,
Are you just kind of trundling along and getting the bare minimum?
Uh, yes, if even.
Okay.
And let's get to the big question.
Tell me about your childhood, my friend.
Uh, sure.
I apologize if some of the early stuff is a little, uh, foggy.
No, no, don't worry about it, man.
Just, just talk.
If I find something needs explaining, I'll ask.
Just tell me what's on your mind.
Awesome.
I mean, compared to some of the other Colin shows, I don't think it's nearly as bad.
My parents stayed together.
I have three younger siblings, two of which I get along well with.
The other one, even though we get along fine now, growing up it was never all that great between us.
My parents stayed together, although they often fought.
They often butted heads a bunch.
So there was a lot of, I guess, uh, strife throughout the house and whatnot.
What do you mean by butted heads?
That's a, um, a kind of cutesy phrase, but I'm not sure what you're referring to specifically.
Uh, sure.
Sure.
So one, uh, one would often took off the other and then, uh, that would kind of become, they would respond in a, uh, in a, in a hostile way, I guess.
Uh, And they would just kind of go back and forth like you did.
You know, they would just kind of go back and forth and kind of feed into each other's anger at each other.
How?
Sorry, I'm just gonna try to find the right words here.
Well, I assume they didn't hit each other.
I mean, were they yelling, calling names?
Were they snippy?
How did it play out?
Oh, yes, they were never physical.
Very, very snippy.
Oftentimes, particularly my father would get, would get ticked off by something my mother said.
And he would, he would like respond in a very like snippy, snippier, he would either be very snippy or yell.
And then that would turn into screaming matches.
Screaming, wow.
Tell me more.
Sure.
It would just kind of escalate until the point where... No, no, I understand it would escalate.
You've got to keep using synonyms.
What would they say?
What would the words be exchanged?
Sure, sure.
It would depend on the situation, but I would say a lot of it revolved around, in regards to my mother, I'm sorry.
My mother would often point out, I guess, something wrong that my father did.
Uh, and then my father would, uh, retort, you know, that he didn't mean to do it that way.
Or something like that.
Could you think of an example?
Roughly?
Sure.
So, the other day we were all doing laundry and whatnot, and my mother came in asking about one of my brother's hockey games, for example.
And that question just really seemed to tick my father off.
Sorry, I didn't quite catch that phrase.
Your brother's what?
Sure.
My brother's hockey game.
Pocky game.
Okay, got it.
And then my father, uh, very irritably responded, kind of blowing her off.
And then my mother, uh, my mother once again responded in a, uh, I guess, I guess like a naggy kind of way.
I don't really know how to describe it.
And then it eventually, uh, blew up into the both kind of attacking each other.
And what sort of stuff would your mother bring up, you said, about your father's past?
Not necessarily anything about his past but just kind of being I guess very cold
like very cold like not wanting to talk always being so angry things like that.
And this has been pretty constant throughout your childhood?
I would say so.
At least At least for the last twelve or thirteen years, I'd say.
And before that, they got along better?
Before that, I can't really remember, if I'm being honest with you.
So, before, what, the age of eight or nine?
Yes.
And so, do you have memories of your childhood before the age of nine, or not so much?
Uh, I do, I do have, I do have some.
I do have some.
Although I don't really remember, uh, My parents' interactions all that much before that point.
Yeah, it's wild.
I mean, I assume you didn't receive any kind of head injury at that age or anything like that, right?
Because it's just kind of wild to me that... I mean, I wish I didn't remember some things, but some people can't really remember much from their childhood, right?
Yeah, yeah.
From what I remember, like, I don't think they yelled as much as they do.
As they do now, at least.
And what would you say would be your parents' primary issues with each other?
Because there's usually some underlying issue or problem that generates this... Is contempt too strong a word?
What's the best way to describe these sort of negative interactions?
Contempt, I believe, is accurate.
Okay, so what are their big underlying issues, do you think?
Uh, that's a, that's a great question.
Uh, if it does help, I do, I do recall at many points, my father, uh, I guess bad mouthing my mother to me, he would often talk about, uh, talk about how, you know, she's disorganized and how she doesn't really, uh, I guess think rationally a lot of the time, as well as, uh, you know, constantly, uh, Not berating, but talking to me about her yelling and I guess not being a very pleasant person to be around.
Alright, and how old were you when your father was dumping this stuff on you?
If I remember correctly, I was definitely younger.
I would probably say maybe 10?
11 is when it started?
Oh my god, so he's dumping marital problems on a 10 year old.
Yes, that's if my memory's correct, which I believe it is.
Okay, let's say you're off by a year or two.
That doesn't change anything, right?
Fundamentally.
Right.
Okay, and what would your mother's complaints be?
Your father's, like, distance, coldness, like, what would her things be?
My father... I'm sorry.
My mother definitely didn't talk about my father with... or the issues that she has with my father as much with me.
But I would say it would be the way he speaks to her a lot.
That wins the prize for the vaguest statement of the morning.
The way he speaks to her.
Excellent.
Yeah, totally clear.
Thank you for that clarification.
My apologies.
It's pretty clear who you sympathize with.
Right, right.
but anyway, go on.
I'm going to be doing a lot of work on this.
Are we still on?
Hello?
Yes, yes, I apologize.
I'm just, uh... No, no, I'm just sorry.
Just every now and then, I don't want to, you know, have a five-minute conversation, a five-minute speech with somebody who got disconnected.
So yeah your mother's complaints about your father.
I guess it would largely be.
you you
Sorry, she did talk to you about these issues, right?
On occasion, on occasion.
I get it, I get it.
So when you say, I guess, are you guessing?
Or do you know?
And I'm sorry to be annoying, but I need to know if this is your guess, because you're like, you know, I think that this hieroglyphic might refer to the death of Set, right?
As opposed to, yeah, I mean, she did say this, that, the other.
Right.
I mean she she says uh she says how uh she doesn't like how she's treated by him.
I know that's very vague.
Oh my gosh, dude, what's going on here?
Why are you taking me around this fog bank?
I apologize.
No, please don't apologize for anything.
I'm just trying to figure out why our conversation has completely stalled.
Like, when I asked for your dad's issues with your mom's, I get the old laundry list, and then your mom's issues with your dad, and suddenly we're like, I don't know, orbiting Pluto or something.
Like, what the hell's going on?
She definitely has issues with him.
No, no, I'm not talking about her.
I'm talking about you.
He definitely does.
Why are we stalling out here?
And again, I'm not complaining.
I'm, you know, it's not a problem.
I'm just curious.
I'm not really, I'm not really sure to be honest with you.
Okay, who do you sympathize with in the conflicts between your parents if you sympathize, if you sympathize with one person more than the other?
Uh, it's actually funny you mention that.
Growing up, I sympathized a lot more with my father.
Well, that would be my guess, right?
Because when your father's complaints are there, you're like, yeah, these are the complaints he has.
And then when I ask for your mother's complaints, you fog out, which means you sympathize more with your father, right?
Yeah.
Definitely.
And he recruited you as an ally, right?
Yes, that's accurate.
Yeah, that's what parents do when they complain about their spouse to their child.
First of all, it's completely messed up.
Completely messed up.
Children should not ever be confidants to adult problems, let alone marital problems.
Well, especially marital problems.
So, he was recruiting you as an ally to be used as a weapon against her.
I don't know if it's quite as relevant.
My mother Also when I was young my mother often did the same thing but in regards to like extended family and things like that But not really with my father So is it that you don't know your mother's complaints against your father or and it's fine if you don't you don't know Directly, like she said this that or the other or you don't want to say that No, it's just I'm really fogging up she deaf listen, I'm not she definitely she definitely has issues with my father and
No, no, I get that.
Please, you don't need to say the blindingly obvious as part of this conversation.
I'm a pretty smart fellow, so... Yes, I get that she has issues with your parents.
Okay.
So, have you processed or internalized the fact that your parents don't really like each other very much?
I know that they don't really get along just from their constant... No, no, no.
It's not that they don't get along.
Right?
Because you might have a third cousin that you don't get along with very well.
Right?
That's a neutral thing, right?
That they actively don't like each other.
Because I'll tell you this, I mean, I've been happily married, very happily married for 21 years.
There's no amount of money in the world that would make me talk to my wife the way that your parents talk to each other.
Because I really, really like her.
There's no amount of money that would Make me talk to a friend or my daughter in the way that your parents talk to each other.
Because I love my friends, I love my daughter, and I wouldn't want to hurt them, right?
You can't spend your life with someone, have foundational criticisms of their entire personality and way of being, and claim to love that person.
I mean, I'm happy to hear arguments to the contrary, but I think I have enough valid experience to say that your parents don't like each other.
Do they take delight in each other's company?
Do they smile when the other person comes into the room?
Are they affectionate?
Do they say, you know, how much they enjoy each other's company?
Or do they seek out each other's company?
I mean, do they love each other or even like each other?
I don't recall them.
They definitely don't light up when one of the other enters the room.
I'll say that much.
Just so you know, my wife had to get up early, she ran an errand this morning and she came in and I was upstairs and I like ran down the stairs and like threw myself into her arms, you know, kissed her, like, how great, you're home, and then we went for a nice walk and we chatted, like, that's liking someone, isn't it?
Yeah, that's really nice.
Yeah, yeah, there's not, there's not much of that.
My father occasionally... Okay, no, no, again, you keep going to neutral.
What do you mean there's not much of that?
There's the opposite of that.
And love and contempt cannot coexist.
I mean, now I'm stating the blindingly obvious, but I'm not sure if you're processing this part yet.
Can you love someone you hold in contempt?
No.
No, of course not.
And you can't like someone and hold them in contempt.
Contempt is one of the most negative feelings that exists in human relations.
Do you understand?
Yeah.
I mean, we could say hatred is even worse, but hatred resolves.
Like if you hate someone, you'll just break, you'll divorce, right?
Contempt is like, it keeps you in this sick orbit.
What's the difference between contempt and outright hatred?
So hatred is, someone is incredibly dangerous to you, they are unstable, they're really going to harm your interests, that you just get as far away from them as possible.
Contempt is enjoying feeling superior to someone, and therefore you need to keep them around.
Okay.
Oh, man.
I gotta say, you, uh, I don't feel good after hearing that.
Well, I'm happy to hear if this doesn't fit.
I mean, this is just my definitions.
it doesn't necessarily mean it fits your experience, but why would you want to spend your life
with someone you hold contempt for?
Unless you want to feel superior.
I mean can you imagine if I married some woman who had no thoughts, no insight, no curiosity,
and I just kept feeling smarter than her.
Thank you.
Right, I'd imagine you wouldn't feel, uh, very, very loving towards that person after a while.
And, uh, what do you mean you wouldn't feel, like, you keep, I'm sorry, I like, I understand it in a way, but you keep going into these euphemisms.
Well, I you wouldn't love that person like no that would be to destroy that person in a way
So your mother comes in when you're doing the laundry or you're in the laundry room and she asks about your brother's
hockey game and your father
Rolls his eyes holds her in contempt what a stupid question like oh, whatever it is, and then they just go to town,
right?
Yes.
Right.
That's being an asshole.
I see.
That's the mother of your children.
That's supposed to be the love of your life.
Now, your mother's staying.
She's signed up for this weird diminishing course.
But... You don't... You don't do that as a husband, right?
No, no.
I don't know.
Why do you think your father chose your mother?
Uh, that's another good question.
Uh, they don't speak about each other.
Uh, like my father never told me what he really liked about, or both of them never really told me what they liked about each other when they were younger.
Uh, other than like the stories of how they met and whatnot.
Uh, my father has said on multiple occasions throughout both my childhood and teen years that, uh, he's very, that he takes like looks very seriously.
Yeah, I mean, you know that this is... He was drawn to her for her looks, and then he found out he didn't really like her personality.
I believe so.
And was she drawn to him because of his looks, or his money-making potential or capacity, or what?
Uh, I would say... If I had to guess, I would say looks, because he's a pretty good-looking guy.
Okay, so they made the oldest and stupidest bargain which every religion in the known world warns against and every moral system in the known world warns against, which is they chose to sacrifice happiness on the sick altar of status.
I got the pretty girl.
I got the handsome guy.
Okay, well... You can... And, you know, you're a young man.
Bro to bro, we understand that, right?
I mean, some really pretty woman is gonna turn her head and is gonna lure us, right?
Definitely.
Yeah, I mean, that's natural and there's nothing wrong with that.
I mean, good looks do indicate a certain kind of genetic fitness.
There's a reason that we're drawn to particular symmetries and hip-to-waist ratios.
I mean, I get all of that.
But there's nobody who says who has any knowledge or experience or expertise with regards to marriage.
There's no one I've ever heard or read who says, yes, you should absolutely choose the looks of your partner over the quality of their character.
Have you ever heard such a thing?
Yes.
You have heard of such a thing?
Yes.
And who is it who says you should choose looks over quality of character?
Wait, I apologize, are you referring to, like, a specific story?
Or, the devil!
The devil, I'm sorry.
Oh, yeah, no, I mean, I haven't seen or read the devil directly.
But, no, no, the devil, the devil doesn't say that.
I mean, because that's too obvious, right?
The devil, if you're, if you're, you know, turned on by some woman, the devil will have you invent all of these qualities of character, right?
He will have you make up all of these qualities of character.
Is it kind of like a rationalization kind of thing?
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, it's an ex post facto justification.
I'm sexually attracted to this woman, therefore she has qualities of character, right?
The devil won't say, oh yeah, she's a bad person and you should marry her based on looks.
Right, the devil will say to you, oh no, I mean she's got all these great qualities
Right?
and she's pretty.
I see.
So, your parents chose each other for looks, sounds like.
I think so.
I don't really think there was any, uh, consideration to... Well, they don't like each other!
Now, characters, personalities, don't change that much.
If personalities and characters change that much, monogamy and, like, lifelong pair bonding would be impossible, right?
I mean, my wife was great when I met her.
She's an even better version of herself now.
I hope that I am, too.
And we don't wake up each morning saying, hey, I wonder who you're gonna be today, right?
Integrity is all about consistency.
So, like, human beings can only develop the brains that we have because of pair bonding, right?
Right, because pair bonding means that you've got to protect the kids for the first 20 to 25 years until their brains mature, and pair bonding is only possible if personalities are stable, right?
So, your parents haven't become different people since when they met.
Is that fair to say?
Yes.
Okay.
So, if they don't like each other now, they didn't like each other then, but it was covered up by lust.
It was kind of like a mask?
Yeah, I mean...
Lust, and talking themselves into, oh yes, this isn't just lust, this is a really wonderful person!
I see.
So let's talk extended family, if this part makes sense.
Uh, sure, sure.
So, of course, extended family, and the Elders in particular, of the clan, Have one job, really, and one job only.
And your grandparents, on both sides, had one job and one job only, and that is to see their children well married.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
Because that's the gene pool, that's the blending of the families, that's the future of the whole clan or family or whatever, right?
So, I mean, you really have, I mean, you have infinite jobs.
As a parent, when your kids are little, but you really only have one job when they're older, which is to see them well-married.
And, you know, if you have a son, maybe a little bit more focus on career so that he can provide, or whatever, right?
But your job is to see your children well-married, right?
And both your grandparents, both sets of grandparents, and extended family, completely failed, right?
So that means that the whole clan, I would assume, or at least those who are still around and participating and enthusiastic about the marriage, they choose status over virtue.
Because they would warn both your mother and your father.
Well, first of all, you wouldn't raise people with negative characteristics like thinking you can Yell and scream at someone you claim to love like you just that wouldn't be a thing, right?
But you'd also say as all parents have to say to their Young adult children, you know lust Lust is a bitch, man It's great, but it can really lead you off a cliff So you gotta be aware, right?
I mean, you've got to have the talk with your kids and say, listen, someone's going to come along who's just so attractive, you'd want to tear apart an entire continent to be with that person, and that's great, but you really do have to focus on their quality of character, because that initial lust will fade, and you'll be left with the person, right?
So, your entire extended family It seems to me.
Maybe there's an exception or two.
But they failed in this task to make sure that their children were well married.
Is that fair?
Yes.
It's actually funny you mention that.
My grandmother is very similar to my father in being looks driven, if not more so.
And her marriage with my grandfather totally fell apart.
Well, it didn't fall apart.
It just was nothing to begin with.
Yeah, that would be...
That would be more accurate.
Right.
So they didn't have the warning.
Now, failing to warn your children about the dangers of looks and lust is to sabotage them.
Now, I assume that your parents are in a community where divorce would lower their status.
I would say so, yeah.
Right.
I mean, a religious community or some kind of community where divorce would be... Right, so they married because of status and looks, not out of virtue and love.
And they stayed together because divorce would lower their status.
So you see that the status thing is the constant, right?
Yes.
And, I mean, you really can't be virtuous if you care about status.
Status and virtue are two opposite things.
Because, I mean, especially in the world that is, and this is all through, of course, Christian history, if not the history of the secular world, that those who are virtuous are generally attacked, right?
And they try to humiliate you, destroy you, ostracize you, or kill you sometimes, right?
So, if you're interested in status, then you can't be virtuous.
If you are a virtuous, you have to be willing, and it's going to happen.
I knew this from the very beginning.
I signed up and talked about it even earlier in the show, that you have to be willing to sacrifice status in order to be virtuous, because status is the sort of sick drug that is given to people willing to give up their souls, so to speak.
I know this sounds kind of harsh, and I'm not trying to encapsulate your entire parents' lives.
I'm just talking about the general principle.
Which is, if you are willing to sell your integrity, what you get in return is approval from bad people.
Right?
You will get the praise of sinners if you give up your soul.
I mean, you have to get something for it, right?
And that's what the devil always sells, right?
I'll give you talent, I'll give you money, I'll give you status.
You'll get the praise of bad people.
And they'll praise you for giving up your soul, because they gave up their souls, and they need to create more zombies, so to speak.
Again, I know this sounds very harsh, and I'm just talking about it in general principle terms.
Are you a religious man?
Are you a Christian man?
Uh, yes.
Yes, I'm a Catholic.
Okay, so what I'm talking about, I don't think, is outside the realm of Christianity.
Is that fair?
Yes.
So, your parents, I assume, are also religious, and they're in a religious community?
Both of my parents aren't really religious.
My mom goes to church once in a while, but my father's... I mean, he's like a vaguely Christian, but he doesn't practice or anything like that.
He's a vaguely Christian, did you say?
Yes.
Okay.
So, from where do they get their morals, do you think?
I think there was some carryover, at least on my mom's side, with the Catholic teachings and whatnot.
But, I mean, in terms of moral teachings, I think a lot of it was what they learned in school and whatnot.
Yeah, that's super vague.
That's fine.
Again, please don't apologize, I'm just pointing it out.
Now, when you were little, I mean, I know you can't remember much before eight or nine or so, but when you were little, your parents, I assume, gave you some moral instruction, like, don't hit, don't steal, don't push, don't lie, don't, like, go to school, be responsible, do your chores, like, pull your weight.
I assume that they gave you some kind of moral instruction, right?
Yes.
So from where, sorry, from where did they get those morals?
The morals I was taught was largely Catholic.
Ah, okay, great, great, okay.
So, if pressed, I would assume they would say their morals aren't just opinions, because they inflict them sometimes aggressively on their children, but their morals come from God, right?
Yes.
Okay, got it.
Do they have a conception of sin.
Do they think about it, talk about it, is it part of their thinking at all?
Yes, yes they do.
Particularly my mother talks about like sins, things like that.
Do they, I mean if they were on the line here, and I would say that treating your spouse with disrespect is a sin?
because you promised in the eyes of God to love honor and obey or even if you drop the obedient thing to love and to honor and so would they understand that screaming at each other calling each other names putting each other down that these are massive massive sins that you are betraying the vow that you made in the eyes of Almighty God and they are damning themselves to eternal punishment I think they would agree with that.
Oh, okay.
Right, so... Maybe not major, but I think they would acknowledge that it's wrong.
What, that's not a big sin?
To promise to love someone and then hold them in contempt?
And damage the children thereby?
That's... That's not a big sin?
I'm sorry, what?
I mean, that's the most solemn vow you ever make!
It's your marriage vows.
I mean, listen, maybe I don't understand their theology, I'm sure I don't, but what would their reasoning be to say, yeah, you know, we scream at each other constantly and we model a life of hatred and contempt or disgust or rage or whatever, right?
But, you know, it's not a big deal.
What would their reasoning be?
It's actually something I've brought up to them before throughout my childhood and teen years.
Uh, whenever I, whenever I brought it up to my mother, who I would usually, uh, go to with this stuff or any objections that I had in terms of how they were treating each other, she would often like minimize it.
Like, no, we're not really fighting.
It's not that big of a deal.
Things like that.
Did you record it and play it back?
No, I didn't record it.
Because I think that would be quite... I mean, sometimes when people are in a fugue state, almost like a dissociated state, they may even genuinely not remember that they were screaming at each other, right?
That very well could be the case.
Right.
Now, did you also tell her, and maybe this was on your mind or not, That Satan himself would be first in line to have you minimize the sin.
Oh, it's not that big a deal.
It doesn't really matter.
We weren't really fighting.
The children are wrong.
Those who are sitting down with concern to me... Like, to minimize the sin is how it continues, isn't it?
Yes.
And your mother would be perfectly aware of that, right?
I would think so, yeah.
Okay, so when she said, and listen, good for you for talking about this as a teenager, that's not easy.
Try and coach your parents on their marriage when you're a teenager.
So, when she minimized, oh, we're not really fighting, it wasn't that big a deal, you're overreacting or you misremember or whatever, if she does that, what was your response to that?
I'm not saying there should be an ideal one, I'm just curious.
I would get dismissive.
Sorry, you would get dismissive?
I would just kind of hold it in.
I would just kind of stop trying.
Oh, right.
So you'd give up, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Maybe too easily.
No, again, I'm just curious.
You might have been totally right.
I don't know, right?
But what was your thinking about giving up?
Sorry, I was completely vague there.
My apologies.
So when your mother said, it's not that big a deal, we weren't really fighting, did you believe her or did you not?
No, I didn't.
I didn't believe her, because to me it was just so, like, obvious, you know, that you guys were just, you know, totally going at it and, you know, waking up the house and... So to me... Oh, so they would scream to the point where the children would be woken up?
Uh, not at night, but just to the point where, like, the whole house would be, uh, would be, like, acutely, like, alert, like, on, like, on alert, I guess.
Yeah.
Okay, so, when your mother lied to your face, and you, in a sense, backed away, which, again, I'm not criticizing, that's just my understanding, was it because you realized that somebody... Ah, let me ask you a different question, I'm sorry, I've got so many layers going on here, I'm just trying to shuffle here.
When your mother said, it's not that big a deal, we weren't really fighting,
was your sense that she believed that herself?
That wasn't my sense.
So she was aware that she was lying to you, is that right?
That's what I got.
I could be wrong, but that was... No, no, listen.
All we have is your instincts, and I will trust your instincts on this.
I really will.
Instincts are very good.
Because there's a reason why you gave up, right?
Yeah.
What does your mother think about lying as a whole?
Like, when you were a kid, we all lie, right?
So, what was your mother's thoughts about lying as a whole?
She didn't like being lied to, or anything like that.
Although, I will say, being honest is something that I've That I struggle with.
Well, yeah, we're not talking about you yet.
So, and it's interesting that when I said, what was your mother's thoughts on lying, you didn't say, she believed that lying was immoral.
What did you say?
Do you remember?
That I have a problem with lying?
No, you said, she doesn't like it when people lie to her.
Yeah, she said that multiple times.
No, that's not immoral though.
Is that like a subjective?
Well, I mean, a guy who's a kleptomaniac might say, I don't like it when people steal from me.
Of course.
Yeah, true.
Right?
Yeah.
Of course, yeah.
I mean, the criminal doesn't like it when you get the gun, right?
Yeah.
So when she says, I don't like it when people lie to me, she's not saying lying is wrong.
She just says, I don't want it used against me.
Yeah.
But of course... So, do you remember her saying, lying is really wrong, and this would be bearing false witness, right?
Yeah.
No, she's definitely said, like when, I guess when teaching us, you know, she would say that lying is wrong.
Okay, when teaching you, but her perspective was that she just doesn't like being lied to.
Yeah, I think that's accurate.
Right, okay.
So, there's one thing that has us give up moral correction.
Always.
What's that, if you don't mind me?
No, no, I'm sorry, I'm not going to tease you with that, but I'm not going to tell you.
No, I get, I mean, I've just, there was a dramatic pause there.
So, this is a little shallow.
So, yeah, the one thing that, at least I wouldn't say for everyone, the one thing that for me,
and I think it's fairly universal, the one thing that has me give up on moral correction
is bottomless moral hypocrisy.
So when people won't tell the truth, and they have no problem lying, moral correction is
impossible.
I'm not going to go into that.
I'm going to go into the bottom of this.
I mean, if you're a personal trainer, and somebody says to you, I need to lose weight and gain strength, and you give them a whole series of exercises, and then you don't see them for a month, right?
And they come back, oh, and you give them a way better diet, right?
You give a way better diet, and an hour or two of exercise a day, right?
Now, if you then come and see them after a month, and they're fatter, and have less muscle tone, And you say to them, what happened?
And they say, I did exactly the diet that you suggested, and I did all of the two hours of exercise a day that you recommended.
100%.
And they don't blink, they look at you directly.
In the face.
And they say, I absolutely followed your diet of 1200 calories a day, or whatever, and I also did two hours of exercise every day over the last 30 days.
And yet, they've gained weight, they've gained body fat, and their muscle tone has further deteriorated, right?
Would that person be lying?
Yeah.
It'd be like they're full of crap.
And if you say, I don't believe you, and they say, I absolutely, I swear upon my mother's life, I did all the dieting and all the exercise you recommended, there must be something wrong with your diet and exercise recommendation.
Or, maybe there's something about my metabolism, that's this magic word metabolism that people use instead of laziness.
I have a slow metabolism!
Anyway, so, would you want to continue training someone?
Who totally lied to your face without a shred of conscience and said that they had been following an exercise regime when, in absolute matter of fact and biology, they hadn't.
Like, if you're, you know, tall and obese, and this is not nutrition advice, I'm just talking about the biology of it, right?
And you eat significant calorie deficits, you're gonna lose weight.
That's just math.
And so the only way that that person could have gained weight is if they were not following your diet.
Like, that's just physics, right?
Yes.
So people who can gain weight without exercise are, like, violations... oh, sorry, people who can gain weight while being at a calorie deficit for a... a significant calorie deficit for a significant period of time would be a violation of the laws of physics.
They would be, like, energy is there, Because, you know, fat is stored energy, right?
Energy is there that wasn't present.
Energy has manifested out of nothing, out of the void, out of the nether, out of the backrooms.
So, sorry to extend the analogy, but as a personal trainer, if somebody was lying to you about the diet and exercise, they say they'd followed it religiously, but you know for a simple fact of physics and biology that they hadn't, would you have any desire to continue being their trainer?
No.
Not at all.
Of course not.
Now, if the person broke down in tears and said, oh my gosh, you know, it's been so hard, I tried for a couple of days and this and that and the other, maybe, just maybe, right?
Like, I stopped doing it and I felt so bad, I ate more.
Like, you probably would not be super enthusiastic about training that person, but it wouldn't be off the table, right?
Because at least they'd be admitting the truth.
Yes.
Definitely better.
Because otherwise, it would be like somebody graduating with a degree in German and said, I can't speak German, right?
It would just be bizarre, right?
So, with your mother, if you say, I'm troubled, or it's bad that you and dad are fighting so much, right?
Yeah.
If she says, you're wrong, If she says, you're lying, because that's kind of what she's saying.
You're saying, I'm troubled to the point where I'm sitting you down and saying, mom, you got to do something about your marriage, right?
Because it's bad and it's disturbing and it's weird and it's horrible for the children.
It's like, that's not an easy thing to do, right?
And she said, you're lying.
Now, she probably didn't say, you're lying, but that's, right, if you say you're screaming at each other, and she says, no we weren't, then she's saying you're lying, right?
At the core of it.
I mean, if I'm wrong, because what she should say, of course, is tell me more.
Yeah, there was no, there was no curiosity in any of her responses.
Right.
So what does that tell you?
about your mother that you bring a massive issue to her that is very disturbing and upsetting not just to you but to the entire family and well, to the three, the four kids, right?
You bring up with great trepidation and great fear and great anxiety, you bring up this issue and your mother calls you a liar and blows you off.
Nah, no good things.
Well, I mean, there's a reason you're not dating, right?
This is not about your mother, it's all about you, right?
What does that say about your mother, that she blows off your huge concerns about the catastrophes of the family?
I mean, my gut reaction is that there's, like, no hope of improvement.
Well, yes, there's no hope, but why is there no hope?
Because she won't listen.
Okay, let's go further.
We could do this step-by-step if you want.
Why is she not listening?
Is she in denial?
Why is she in denial?
What does it mean that she's in denial about your honest experience?
Could it be that she doesn't want to?
Acknowledge, like, how bad she is, for lack of a better term?
Sure, I mean, who does, right?
That's a constant for everyone, right?
Yeah.
Why doesn't she listen to you?
Let me put it another way.
It's like a cat and a mouse.
Is it possible To love someone and also completely dismiss his genuine pain.
And when he comes to you in a state of vulnerability, begging for help, you call him a liar and shut down the conversation.
Is it possible to love someone and do that?
When you put it that way, I don't think so.
Well, we can wait for certainty.
No.
Now, again, nobody's talking about perfect behavior, right?
So there are times, you know, we're all defensive and we snap back a little and then, you know, we catch ourselves because we care about the person and we say, I'm sorry, that was a little strong.
Let me reset that and ask again, right?
Yeah.
Is it possible to love your children and repeatedly frighten them in order to score
stupid points with your wife in a fight?
I'm happy to hear the evidence but I'm having trouble seeing
the evidence that your parents are capable of love.
Oh man.
I gotta say that that hurts Well, this is why, and I am genuinely happy to hear of the evidence.
But frightening your children with What, 15 plus years of screaming at each other?
Calling your child a liar when he tries to bring this up as a teenager?
Refusing to fix, refusing to go to anger management, refusing to go to couples counseling, refusing to do whatever it takes to make your children happier, all for the sake of scoring stupid points off each other in an endless pointless fight?
I mean, Am I wrong in this, in your understanding?
Is it not incumbent upon parents to do what is best for their children?
No, that's... That's kind of the deal, right?
That's the deal, right?
That's the deal of being a parent is you do what's best for your children, right?
And there are times, of course, when that means sacrificing your own immediate interests or your historical interests, right?
I mean, it's not like Women who aren't new mothers get up four times a night to rock a doll, right?
Right?
They do that, you know, they do that for the best interests of the baby, right?
Yes.
So, screaming in front of your children, screaming at all, having that level of contempt, hostility, whatever, maybe it's outright hatred when they get to screaming at each other, Calling your children liars when they bring it up.
Frightening your children.
Disturbing them repeatedly.
Is that doing what is best for your children?
No.
Okay.
So, is dumping and complaining about your wife and trying to create an ally in your son as a father, is that doing what is best for your children?
No.
And it worked.
It worked for a very long time.
Yeah, yeah.
But you did become daddy's ally, right?
Yeah.
Right.
So that your dad could say, yeah, even this kid doesn't like you.
Well, no kidding, right?
Yeah.
So, if your parents aren't willing to do what's best for their children, in fact, they indulge themselves in these stupid pointless fights that never go anywhere.
But that's the price of status, right?
The price of status is I have to win at all costs.
And I want the pretty girl, even if I don't like her that much, because that would get me envy in the moment.
Then I have a lifetime of misery and fighting and my kids get traumatized, but what the hell?
People envy me.
In the five minutes they look at me dating this girl and say, wow, she's really pretty, man, I wish I was him.
And then they go on with their happy lives and you're stuck with the... Right?
the woman who is pretty but can't laugh.
Have you experienced against.
love from your parents.
At times I would definitely say so.
I've had a couple of... Sorry, go ahead.
I've had a few... over the years I've had a few... I guess conversations with my mother in which We both broke down in tears.
Those were largely... I apologize.
She would come in, and at first it would be confrontational, but eventually it turned into both of us shedding tears and having a moment.
Something a little more genuine than... Sorry, I'm not quite sure how that's love.
I'm happy to hear, but Yeah, I guess.
I guess not.
It just felt like- We're both sobbing is not the definition of love.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess you're right.
Maybe that might be a certain amount of connection or a certain amount of honesty, but that's not the same as love.
I mean, to take a silly example, right, if a policeman gets a criminal to break down and admit his crime and the criminal sobs about killing someone, is that love?
No.
I mean, I guess it's a moment of direct emotional honesty or whatever, but I'm not sure that's...
I wouldn't see that as the same as love, but...
I'm... again, I'm certainly happy to hear more examples.
I mean, my father often...
My father... I do remember, like, my father always coaching, like, my little league teams and being
very, I guess, involved with me.
you In terms of activities and things like that?
Well, I mean, the act of coaching is nice, but coaching is not the same as love, right?
I mean, we don't like those often Eastern European coaches who overly love the little girls they're coaching, right?
Yeah, that's a good one.
Sorry, that's a bit of a silly example, but coaching is not the same as love.
And coaching also has to do with status, right?
I'm going to assume that your father coached your team, and you were very good at the sport, right?
Uh, I was pretty good.
I was never, like, a superstar or anything.
No, no, but you were pretty good, so, yeah, there's some status.
And also, there's status in, I'm a coach for the team, right?
It makes him look good.
I guess at least with the other parents and whatnot.
I'm sorry?
I guess at least with the, uh, other parents and whatnot.
Yeah, and he's in a position of authority, and again, I'm not saying he was a bad coach, I'm sure it was fine, but that's not quite the same as love.
This is going to sound really stupid.
Can I ask for an example?
No, it's not stupid at all.
I was actually just thinking the same thing.
Like, here's what it isn't, right?
I mean, I take absolute deep delight in spending time with my daughter.
And the fact that she still wants to spend time with me is great.
It's great, right?
I mean, she's 15 and change and all of that, so... You know, she... I mean, I said this at the show last night, like, yesterday, we chatted in the morning, and then I...
I had to drive her to pick something up and she's like, let's go for lunch.
We went for lunch and we had a nice long chatty lunch and you know, it's just, I just really, really enjoy spending time with her.
She's great company.
She's very funny.
She's very warm.
She's very interesting.
And I've always enjoyed spending time with her.
I seek her out.
I'm like, that's sort of the joke that I detached from my wife and then attached to my daughter for a company, right?
That's not a joke in the household, right?
I admire her, and I respect her integrity, and her honesty, and her directness.
She's been magnificent in situations of social conflict, and, I mean, I know that she respects and admires me in what I've dealt with and been able to achieve in my life.
So, I mean, she has great integrity, she has great virtue, and we respect that in each other.
And I wouldn't do something that would harm her, right?
So, like, in the height of my sort of social media prominence, when I had, like, millions of followers and, you know, could say things and get, like, celebrities to respond and all of that, my daughter said, Dad, it's a bit too much with the social media, right?
Did I just say, Oh, don't be ridiculous.
I don't spend that much.
Like, no, it's like, tell me more.
And she's like, well, this, that, and the other.
And she was, you know, I miss you.
Right.
And I'm like, you know what?
That's the world will wait.
My daughter's young only once.
Right.
And she was right about that.
So I significantly curtailed that time.
I mean, I can do it after she's gone to bed.
Like I just significantly curtailed that because it is quite addictive.
Having that much influence and feedback and, you know, having twenty wild arguments going on at the same time.
I mean, I'm pretty ninja at that kind of stuff and it's very interesting and it's a lot of fun.
But my daughter was right.
So even something as relatively mild as that I will listen to her and I will change my behavior because, I mean, she's right.
And it doesn't matter, like there's some, there's no objective court of, well, objectively I'm running this business and I need to spend time and at least I'm not, at least I'm not commuting and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And, you know, yesterday we, we went to the creek and how, you know, like, it's like, well, that's her experience.
So it's real.
It's real.
So, listening to people, making sure you don't hurt them, doing what's best for them, enjoying
their company, respecting their morals.
That to me is all sort of clustered in with love, if that makes sense.
Do you admire your parents' morality and integrity?
Uh...
No, not anymore.
When did you?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just want to know when it faded out.
Uh, sure, sure.
Uh, I really admired my father, uh, for a very, for a very long time.
Uh, you know, I admired- Please don't tell me he's in sales.
No, no, no, no.
Okay, sorry, go ahead.
Sorry.
Uh, he, I admired his physical strength.
I always viewed him as very strong, uh, As well as being decisive, he was very handy when it came to... He was very competent in terms of construction and things like that.
So that, I always admire.
God, I hope that's not love.
No, no, no.
I'm not very good at that stuff.
Give me an Ikea furniture in three days, I'll assemble it the wrong way.
But anyway, was he a workout guy?
Was he muscly, or was he just naturally, like Jean Valjean, naturally strong?
He definitely worked out, but he was by no means a musclehead.
I would say more naturally strong.
Right, okay, so you admired his competence and you admired his strength, okay.
Yeah.
And, uh, I admired, and I really enjoyed, uh, the moments that he would, uh, like, play with me or take me outside and things like that.
But as I kind of got older and kind of saw some of the, uh, I guess flaws in both of my parents, uh, the pure or strict admiration kind of declined a little bit.
And that is a natural phase.
All parents will disappoint their children at some point, because we start off as gods, right?
Yeah.
And so, without a doubt, all parents, the kids will look and say, you're off the pedestal, right?
You're no longer one of the pantheon of the Greek gods.
So all parents, and that's a healthy thing, right?
Obviously, parents appear to be gods when children are little, and then they have to resolve to humans so that So that children can adult, right?
So, but you know, you don't want it to be too far a fall from grace, right?
And what about your mother?
Uh, my mother, my mother and I definitely had a more, uh, I guess strained relationship throughout my childhood.
Uh, it's still, it's still pretty strained.
Like she'll acknowledge, uh, like she'll acknowledge that we don't have much of a bond.
I guess in some ways I'm pretty resentful of her.
I'm not sure if that's necessarily all of her fault, but it's at the point, Stefan, where I can't even look at her in the eye.
Oh gosh, I'm so sorry to hear about that.
And I feel so bad.
Well, I'm sorry that this is the situation, and obviously it's a big story, but what are the major points of the dissent?
I don't remember there being any catastrophes per se, but she would raise her voice a lot at me.
Sorry, say again?
She would always raise her voice at me.
Even when I was younger, things like that.
Uh, eventually when I got into... Sorry, what would she say?
I mean, there's the tone, and then there's the content, and what would she say?
Early on, I don't remember much, but later on, in like middle school and high school, a lot of it revolved around my, uh, my dropping grades, where she would just absolutely, like, lay into me.
And... No one likes to see their kid doing poorly in school, but...
Uh, you know, she would tell me how I would be like a failure, and... Oh my gosh.
Yeah, things... things like that.
And if I don't like my act together, you know, my life will... you know, my life won't be, uh... very good.
Things like that.
Okay, so, I mean, obviously you're fulfilling that curse at the moment, right?
I apologize.
Say that again?
You're fulfilling that curse at the moment, right?
With your indifference to school and lack of a future.
Yeah, I mean, a lot of times you'll amount to nothing is sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy, right?
She says it to you, you internalize it, and then you lack motivation, right?
Yeah.
And I think what made it a bit worse was that I think I was a little bit of a big fish in a small pond.
I don't think I'm an idiot, but I'm certainly not like a genius.
When I was younger, my parents Often praised me for my intelligence and whatnot.
And I did perform well in grade school and through almost to middle school.
Sorry, you would be praised for your intelligence?
Yeah, my intelligence, my grades.
Well, hang on, were they praising you for your intelligence or your work ethic?
To me, it seemed more like my intelligence rather than my work ethic.
Right.
So that's Parenting 101 is you don't praise children for innate characteristics
because that strips them of their ambition.
Yeah.
I mean, you don't praise a daughter for being physically beautiful if she just happened to inherit that, right?
You don't praise a son for being tall, because it's just his genes, right?
You don't praise children for innate characteristics, and intelligence is largely an innate characteristic.
So you don't praise children for their innate characteristics because that strips them of their work ethic, right?
I'm good just for existing means I don't have to work it much.
Yeah.
Yeah, I guess there's nothing that really goes into it if it's a characteristic that you're born with.
Okay, so they sabotaged your work ethic and then complained that you didn't do well in school?
And I'm not saying this is conscious, but wouldn't that be the effect?
Yeah, yeah, I guess so.
Yes, yes, sorry.
Yeah, you're so smart you don't even need to study is kind of what you got, and then you ended up not studying, and some stuff you can get through intelligence, and some stuff you have to study for, right?
I mean, nobody's gonna reinvent math all the way up, so you have to study that, and Nobody innately knows the word spelling unless you read voraciously, in which case even then you need to memorize it.
So your parents said, you're just so smart, and then what happened was you ended up not working that much, and then because of that you ended up doing badly, and then your parents railed against you for doing badly.
Is that roughly it?
Uh, yeah.
Yeah, it sounds pretty spot on.
Tell me what you're thinking about this.
That hit a chord, right?
A bit, yeah.
I will say, just as an aside, later on I definitely noticed my father telling me I have a good work ethic in regards to a lot of the jobs I did and always having a good relationship with my bosses and co-workers and whatnot.
But back to the... I just wanted to include that.
But in terms of that, that sounds pretty accurate.
And I think it was Sorry.
At the time I started going on like my phone a lot and whatnot.
They gave me a smartphone, uh, at the end of fifth grade, I think.
So I would just, you know, like watch what's up.
They gave you a smartphone when?
Uh, at the end of elementary school.
So I was 11.
And why did they do that?
Uh, Everyone else in my grade was pretty much getting one at that time for the most part.
So their big thing was, we want to stay in communication with you since you'll be in a new building.
My grade school was three houses away from me.
The middle school was like a 10-minute drive off of the highway.
So I guess they wanted to keep in communications a little more.
I'm also a type 1 diabetic.
So at the time, I'm sure they want to stay on top of that as well in case anything happened.
What kind of phone did they get you?
Uh, they got me a Samsung Galaxy.
Oh my god, that's a bit overkill for texting, isn't it?
Yeah, exactly right.
So they gave you this massive, high-performance, shiny toy with infinite capacities and then say, gee, you're spending, I mean, they could have got you a Motorola from like 1970, I mean, of course being, but if it was just staying in touch, that's right, that's an overkill.
Yeah, Stefan, it's actually funny you mention that.
I told them the exact same thing.
I remember being 11 and just being, like, virulently against me getting a smartphone.
Because I saw, like, you know, how people use it and whatnot, just constantly, uh... Oh, kids, it's crazy!
I mean, a friend of mine's daughter was at a party not too long ago, and she just called her parents and said, come get me, because everyone's on their cell phone, nobody's even talking.
Yeah, it's horrible.
Horrible.
You know, you see what it does to, you know, your peers, and...
You know, to the adults in a room, and I was just, I was like, Mom, Dad, please do not get me.
I really don't want one, please.
And, you know, they ended up getting one for me anyway.
Now, you know why they got you a Galaxy, Samsung Galaxy?
Yeah.
I was, I remember being so dead set against it.
No, but why did they get you such an expensive phone?
Is this, is this tying back to the status thing?
Well, what do you think?
Very well could be.
Because, you know, those types of smartphones, I guess, were largely popular among my peer group at the time.
Like, that's what everyone else was getting.
It was either the Samsung or mostly the iPhone.
Right, so it's a status thing.
I never really thought about that aspect of it before.
This smartphone is destructive to me, and they're like, shut up, status matters, you're taking it.
Yeah, pretty much.
Okay, so that's more sabotage, right?
Yeah.
And I always resented them for that.
But I mean, I'm an adult now, but still, you know, I was a kid back then, and it definitely hurt.
Sorry, what do you mean you're an adult?
I'm not sure why we're whiplashing through the years now.
Sorry.
I just don't want to, like, deny any, like, self-responsibility that I have in my situation.
Well, but we're not talking about you as an adult.
I'm just trying to figure out why we did the time shift.
Right, sorry, I guess it was... I guess it was a bit of a deflection.
Oh, you wanted to say, um... Just because they bought me digital crack didn't mean I had to snort it.
Yeah, I guess that doesn't really make much sense.
Well, I mean, of course, right?
I mean, none of your kids were able to resist it.
Very few kids, if any, are.
Right?
Yeah, they got me too.
Right.
Well, and also, I mean, it sounds like a silly example, but when I was a kid, in England, there were a few kids whose parents, for whatever reason, didn't have TVs.
And I mean, it was tough, man, because we, you know, we're talking about the latest Doctor Who episode and these kids are like, I don't know.
I mean, so if you don't have a smartphone and everyone's like, here's a meme and, you know, here's the chat session we're part of, I mean, it's a little tough.
Yeah, that's, that's true.
There were a couple of kids in my, there was a kid in my grade who had that issue.
But again, you don't have to get the top tier stuff.
Right.
So.
I mean, my, for a variety of reasons, we got my daughter a secondhand phone.
It's actually what she wanted.
She likes the home button because she takes a lot of screenshots.
But yeah, it's kind of old.
It's kind of slow.
Battery lasts about nine minutes, but that's what she wanted.
And I think that's the right thing.
So she's not too drawn into the phone phone-iverse, right?
That's good.
So, we were talking about instances of parental love.
So, let's say, I mean, to the phone thing, to me the analogy would be if I have a brother who's an alcoholic and on his birthday I gift him with crates of whiskey, scotch and beer And I'd say, hey man, you could just, you don't have to drink it.
Do you understand?
Yeah, yeah, it's uh... And that's an adult!
Yeah, that's true.
That's also true.
Wouldn't that be a total jerk move?
Yeah.
Particularly if you consider yourself concerned with their well-being whatsoever.
Well, I mean, it's the parent's job to do whatever's best for the kids, right?
Yeah.
Have you ever talked to your father about the shortcomings you perceived that he had as a father?
No.
And again, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have, I'm just curious, since you've done it with your mom, at least to some degree, why not with your dad?
That's a good question.
Uh, largely I keep, uh, I keep quiet about... I don't... When I, like, think about telling my parents, you know, these kinds of, uh, things, I get very, very nervous.
I get, it's like a very, uh, I get like kind of scared.
I get scared.
And I sympathize with that, and this is not cowardly, I mean, it's frightening.
I sympathize with that, and it's very, very wise and mature to admit that, because that's the experience of most of us.
Why do you think it's so scary?
My father does have my father uh does have his temper.
We have conversations where you know he remains calm and things like that but
usually it's when that's the case it's usually like it's supposed to be like a motivating talk
or you know more surface level things.
Uh, when it comes to like his faults, I don't, I don't know if he'd react all that great.
What do you think would happen?
I don't think it would get like physical or anything like that, but
I think you would be confused you
A bit of confusion.
Maybe a hostile reaction at first.
I think after a bit he would calm down.
But I guess the biggest thing is that I just don't really see anything changing.
Why not?
I mean, I brought up...
I brought up the cell phone thing to my father and how it kind of, uh, I guess hurt my performance and whatnot.
And, you know, the excuse was, well, you know, we track your, we track your, uh, blood sugar on the phone or whatnot.
And I'm like, I could get like a separate device where I could easily, uh, check the numbers.
He's like, okay.
I mean, that makes sense.
You know, it's addictive, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
You know, well, uh, you know, we'll do something about this, whatever.
And then just nothing ever came of it.
Sorry, what do you mean, we'll do something about this?
I mean, it's twelve years ago.
No, no, I meant, uh, this was more recent.
This was probably, like, last year.
I'm sorry, what was?
Uh, this, this interaction.
Oh, so you did talk a little bit about your father, to your father, about something you had an issue with, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Alright, um, you say your father has a temper, right?
A bit.
Doesn't he scream at his wife?
Sorry.
Yes, no.
Okay, how often, let me ask you this, how often are your parents in conflict?
And I don't mean screaming at the top of their lungs, but how often is there disagreement between them?
Very frequently.
I'm gonna need a number, brother.
My bad, my bad.
When they're around, maybe like every other day.
And what do you mean by a conflict every other day?
What does that look like?
Uh, just some kind of, uh, it's not always, you know, blow up, but just, you know, like minor arguments or bickering or, you know, just, uh, I guess cold, just general coldness in their interactions.
So every, maybe every second day and how long does it last for?
Uh, A few minutes.
Some of them- Oh, so that's not so bad, right?
No.
Some of them- They're a little snippy, and then they're warm again five, ten minutes later?
No, no, no.
Oh, sorry, then maybe I'm misunderstanding.
No, I mean, like, their actual interactions will last, I guess, a few minutes, but then they'll be, like, cold.
They'll just be, like, cold to each other.
And how long does that last, or how long does it take until they're warmer to each other again?
If it ever comes back, I don't know.
It feels like it's constant.
It feels like it's... Oh, so it's a constant conflict.
Yeah, that's... Low intensity, high intensity, there's just a constant conflict, right?
Generally, yes.
There are moments, and usually...
If my father goes away for a couple of days to, like, one of my brother's sports tournaments, or, you know, he's gone because he's staying at work overnight, and they'll come home, you know.
Or, you know, if they're watching a movie, they'll be a little, you know, they'll be nicer, and he'll show signs of affection, but overall, like, your everyday interaction, it's just very... When they're not interacting with each other, they're nicer.
When they're watching a movie, or your father's away.
Yeah, or like when we have family over for dinner.
Oh, no, that's all just show.
No, that's for outsiders, right?
I mean, yeah, that's not a thing.
That's real.
I mean, unless I'm wrong, but I mean, putting on the show is pretty common among dysfunctional couples, right?
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
All right.
So, let me ask you a question.
This might hurt as well, so just forewarned as forearmed.
No, no problem.
So you say that your father has a temper.
I'm not sure I believe that.
And I know that that's a ridiculous thing to say, so I apologize in advance.
Let me tell you my reasoning, and you can tell me how wrong I am, and obviously I don't want to be wrong, so it's your life.
Correct me where I go astray.
Sure.
Have you ever seen your father lose his temper and result in lower status because of his actions.
Like, I don't know, like he yells at someone in a restaurant and people look at him like, you're a crazy guy!
Like, have you ever seen your father lose his temper and the result of him losing his temper is some low status thing?
Ooh.
The only instance I could think of, uh, sometimes at my brother's sports games, he'll get, uh, you know, he'll start yelling at like a bad call or Yelling at, like, the umpire or the referee or whatever.
But I don't think that results in any, like, lower status.
Yeah, maybe not.
I mean, okay, so any other type?
No.
Okay, so he doesn't have a temper.
He has a strategy to maintain higher status called bullying.
It's something that's deployed.
It's not some organic part of his personality.
It's a strategy to maintain status to get aggressive.
It's not organic, it's not authentic, it's not real, it's not some spontaneous
upsurge of emotion.
It's like a card he plays, or like a chess move.
Okay, I'll get aggressive so that I can maintain dominance.
It's not a temper, it's a strategy.
Unless I'm wrong, of course, in which case I'm happy to be corrected.
No, I'm just trying to think of any other...
Examples, but I can't think of anything that comes to mind.
Well, okay, so has he ever screamed at your mother in public?
No.
Not that I can recall.
No, you'd remember.
Of course you'd remember.
Okay, so he doesn't have to scream at your mother, because every single... or if they're having a conflict, and family or friends or his boss is coming over for dinner, do they continue that conflict?
No, they're all smiles and pleasantries, right?
Right.
So there's nothing organic about it.
It's willed into existence and then it's willed out of existence.
It's just a strategy.
It's not real.
Which is great news!
you Because it means that nothing he ever said to you when he was in a state of temper was real or honest or authentic.
It was all just a strategy.
It's none of it's truth.
Is the strategy just to, like, maintain control or authority?
Well, no, it's just status and dominance.
He just gets his way, and he gets his way by escalating, right?
He dominates by escalating, by yelling, raising his voice.
But it's not organic, because something that's organic... I don't know if you've ever had it where you're really, really upset and you can't...
Change it no matter what.
Like, even if the Pope was coming to visit or something, you'd still be crying or... Right?
You can't just switch it off, right?
Okay.
So that which you can switch off is not real.
I mean, I know this, of course, because my mother would be in a high rage, and then the phone would ring, and she'd think it would be some guy that she was pursuing, and she'd be like, Hi!
You know, how are you?
Great to hear... Like, it would just switch, like that, right?
Just like that?
Oh, yeah, yeah.
Oh, it's wild.
It's crazy.
Well, I'm sure you... I mean, maybe not to that extreme.
My father... My mother was a lady of extremes.
But I'm sure you've seen it, where they aren't getting along, and then something happens.
Either they go out, or someone comes over, and it changes.
Right.
I do it... I think... I mean, now that you pointed that out, I do that... I do that at work, when you have to deal with a customer, if you're in, like, a bad mood or anything like that.
And they walk in, and all of a sudden, you know, the smile goes on.
You know, hey, how can I help you?
Right, right, right, right.
You know, whereas if, you know, your loved one or loved pet or something had just died, I mean, you might put a smile on your face, but it wouldn't change things in particular in your heart.
Yeah, you'd still feel really bad.
Right.
Right.
Yeah, I mean, I remember once my mom screaming at me, and then there was a knock at the door, and it was a bunch of Mormons, and she invited them in, and she made them tea, and we chatted about God, and I showed them my model airplanes, and that was a perfectly pleasant afternoon.
There was nothing real about any of it.
And to me, once I realized that, it was a huge weight off my shoulders.
Because, you know, if she's calling your names or whatever and you think that there's some kind of truth in it, like she's reached such an elemental level of anger that she's finally unpacking what she really thinks and what she's seen and what she's observed and... It's like, no, it's nothing to do with that.
It's just, she'll say whatever she can say to hurt you so that you'll back down and give way and she'll dominate.
So, she's just grabbing at random things, like you grab at random keys to open a lock if you don't know which key it is, right?
Just grabbing at random things, saying stuff, and your mother too, right?
So your mother's like, you know, you're not applying yourself, you're lazy, like, because I was listening very attentively to how you introduced yourself and you said, like, lazy was the big thing, right?
So, they don't believe that you're lazy.
And they certainly don't believe that laziness is bad because it's really lazy to intimidate little children with your anger.
That's really lazy.
That's shitty lazy parenting, right?
It's not even parenting, it's just intimidation.
I mean, it's the difference between earning 20 bucks by working a couple of hours in a bad job or earning 20 bucks because you're threatening someone and, you know, give me your money, right?
It's lazy.
It's lazy to threaten people rather than reason with them and negotiate with them.
So, yeah, so all of the stuff that was said... Sorry, you were about to say something, I don't mean to interrupt your call.
No, no, it was just, uh, so threatening's the easiest way to get what you want.
Well, I mean, threatening children?
I mean, can you think of anything that's lazier or more pathetic or more of a bully and anything that's more contemptible than threatening a little child who's completely dependent upon you to get your way to win?
Nothing comes to mind.
I mean, it really is the most horrifying and appalling behavior around.
Because kids, I mean, they can't leave.
They've got no recourse, no rights, no independence, no jobs.
They've just got to sit down, shut up, and take it all, right?
So, yeah, I mean, all of the things that my mother said to me about me were just things that she was pulling from the air in order to win and dominate.
in the moment it had nothing to do with any objective evaluation
of my character you know when you're wrestling I don't know if you've ever
been a wrestler but when you wrestle
you just try various different grapples until you find a weak spot right
Yes.
So that's what this kind of verbal abuse is, they're just trying various different word combinations until they hit a soft spot, right?
I don't know if you've ever gone for a massage.
Let's say you go for a massage, you've got a really tight muscle.
The masseuse will feel around and do like, oh, oh, that's it, yes, that's it, right?
Right.
They're just feeling around until they find what they need, what they can work on.
So your parents, they would try a bunch of different... Every insult has a different effect on every person.
Right?
So some people respond to lazy, some people respond like they get more hurt by the word
lazy, they get more hurt by the word stupid, a lot of girls get hurt by the word ungrateful,
whereas guys don't.
Women are less hurt by the word lazy than men are because we're supposed to be the providers.
Men are less, boys are less hurt by the word weak, and women are more hurt by, you know,
you're unpopular, nobody likes you, we all got together and talked about you and everybody
dislikes you, right?
That wounds girls more because they are more social creatures to some degree than boys, whereas for boys being picked last in the sports game is more painful.
So there's lots of different hurts that fit on different personalities and fit on different people.
So, I mean, I was susceptible to various things.
I was never susceptible to being called stupid, and I was never susceptible to being called lazy.
Right, so teachers would call me lazy, right?
They'd say, well, if effort matched ability, you'd be an A+.
And my basic thing was, well, you're boring.
The material is retarded, and you're boring.
It's your job to motivate me.
You're the teacher.
You're supposed to interest me in what you want to teach me.
You're supposed to show how it's relevant and interesting.
So, I mean, there were some things I was susceptible to, which doesn't really matter here, but there was a whole bunch of stuff I wasn't susceptible to.
And so people didn't do it.
In the same way that if the key doesn't work in the lock, you go to a different key, right?
So your parents, when they're trying to dominate you, or bully you, or win, they'll try a various bunch of different insults.
And then they'll see the ones which make your eyes widen, and your face turn pale, and they'll be like, ah!
Those are the ones that we'll get.
Those are the go-to pain points for our kid.
I'm not saying this is a conscious process, but it's the way it works, right?
So... So then, they repeat these things, and you then internalize them, and you think that there must be some truth to them, because my parents kept saying this, and they didn't say this to the other kids.
Well, because the other kids have different pain points.
Which cruel people will work, right?
I see.
Boys tend to be a little bit more self-sufficient, so saying people don't like you, I was like, eh, can't be popular with everyone.
Whereas, you know, for girls saying nobody wants you on their sports team, they're like, eh, you know, I'm not that sporty anyway, right?
What happens is that the cruelty, and this can happen with priests or teachers or parents, those with authority over children, they'll just try various different insults until they find the ones that really work.
And again, that's based on personality, that's based on a variety of factors.
And based on your capacities, right?
You know, if people, when I was a kid, were to insult me by saying, you are not a great singer, it's like, yeah, I know I'm not a great singer, so what, right?
I mean, it's funny because, I mean, this used to happen on Twitter.
People would say, oh yeah, well you're bald, and it's like, what?
That'd have to do with the price of tea in China!
Right?
I mean, yes, I'm bald.
Like, bald jokes are boring and pointless.
Like, it wasn't my choice, and it's actually been hugely beneficial to me in my life.
It saved me probably six months of my life to not have hair, because you don't have to worry about styling it, or products, or, you know, whatever.
I can go a lot longer without haircuts.
And so, anyway, so, there've been benefits.
Whatever, right?
But it's just, insulting people for innate characteristics usually doesn't really Now, where you tend to get hurt is when you know you can do something, you're unmotivated, and people call you lazy.
That's when you really do get hurt.
Because they're right that there is a gap between Your potential and what you're actually achieving.
And I think this is the basis of our call, isn't it?
That there's a gap between what you feel you could do in life and what you're actually doing?
Easily.
Right.
So what that meant was that the word lazy or unmotivated or, you know, you're not reaching your potential, you're just Wasting your abilities.
Those were the keys that fit the lock of your compliance, I would imagine.
And again, this is your life, so if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
You can tell me, and we'll switch approaches.
But you think there's something true about it, but it's nothing true.
It's just what worked with you as a kid.
For X factor we don't even need to worry about, but that's the key to fit your lock of compliance,
so to speak.
Wow.
Holy moly.
I'm not sure I'm going to be able to do that.
But there's nothing true in it.
And I just, I need to...
I'm working like crazy to get this massive weight off your shoulders.
Which I appreciate.
Yeah, there's just something wrong with me, I'm lazy, I don't, why am I so foggy?
I mean, you kept apologizing for not knowing things.
I apologize for not knowing this.
Yeah, that's always been... It says to me, what's the capital of, I don't know, some XYZ island in the Philippines?
I'm like, I don't know.
I'm so sorry, I don't... It's like, no, I don't... Why would I know that?
I don't know that.
I appreciate that.
That's always been an issue, as far back as I can remember.
I apologize for everything.
Right.
And why?
I mean, the way I view it, whenever I, like, apologize, it's a little bit of, uh... I get very, like, anxious.
I just want to, like, you know, calm, calm down, calm down, calm down.
You mean you want the other person to calm down or you to calm down?
The other person, the other person.
Okay, so you're like a dog who's been bullied too much and you show your throat when everybody comes up, right?
Yeah, I think that's accurate.
But you also do realize it's highly insulting.
Yeah, I feel like, I feel like such a, I feel so weak.
No, no, why is it insulting to the other person?
Oh, to the other person?
Oh yeah, no, it's highly insulting to the other person.
You're absolutely denigrating the other person.
I'll be honest with you, I never really considered it.
Oh.
Oh yeah, no, it's appalling like you're doing something wrong.
But if I ask you something and you don't have the answer and you apologize to me, you're appeasing me as if I'm a bully.
But I'm not a bully.
But you're treating me like I'm a bully.
It's kind of insulting when you think about it, right?
Yeah.
When you put it that way, I never really thought about that before.
And I do that so much, I feel.
Right, right.
And this means that people who are confident don't particularly want to engage with you much, right?
Because you keep insulting them like they're about to scream at you, or yell at you, or put you down, or it's like, well, no, isn't that kind of unjust to treat me like I'm your dad?
Yeah, I guess it is.
And what it means, of course, is that it will bring, it will either keep healthy people at a bit of a distance, or it will invite dysfunctional people in, because they'll be like, oh, this guy apologizes all the time, great, so I can bully him.
Let's bully him, yeah.
Wow.
If you treat everyone like they're an abuser, you'll end up with a life full of abusers, or no one at all.
Scary thought Wow, it's just become like so it's like second nature
I do that at like work.
I do that, my personal relationships.
And you do that because why?
Like, of course it's to manage anxiety.
I get all of that, but, but why?
I don't want them to yell at me.
Right.
Right.
You do that to show compliance.
Because that will prevent you, hopefully, from being bullied.
Now, that's why I said that your father's, quote, temper is not organic, it's just a
strategy.
To get compliance, because if you signal compliance by apologizing up front, then he won't yell at you.
So it's just a strategy.
I will yell at you if you don't comply.
Oh, I'm so sorry.
I'm so sorry.
I'm complying.
Okay, then I won't yell at you.
Again, it's not a temper.
It's just a strategy.
I see.
That is...
It is a bit relieving to kind of, I guess, understand the nature of, the nature of it more.
That's insane.
Oh, uh, but it's even deeper than that.
We're just at the middle here.
Seriously?
Oh yeah, no, it goes way deeper than that.
Oh boy.
Wow.
Holy cow.
My mind's like blown, my mind's blown.
Oh no, no, we're, we're, we're getting to the bottom now.
If you want, I mean, it's, it's your call.
No, 100%.
100%.
I need to... I'll just say this up front.
You apologize so you don't assault your father.
Really?
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.
So, if your father is aggressive towards you, he yells at you or puts you down or something like that, and you say to him what you really think and feel, which was, you know, how dare you insult me!
You're my father.
You're supposed to support me, you asshole.
How dare you put me down?
What is the matter with you?
Bullying a child?
You're like, this is the most pathetic thing I can think of.
What a weak, weak person you must be.
To scream at a child.
Ooh, big hero.
I never see you screaming at the police, or your boss.
Oh, it's always the little children that you're just pushing around, you fucking coward.
What happens then?
And I'm not saying you would say that as a kid, but, you know, whatever approximation, right?
Or as a teenager, or whatever.
Or even now, I don't know, but... What would happen then?
If I were to say that?
Yeah.
Or what's your fear about what would happen?
Just very... Just... I mean, I don't... I mean...
It's never gotten physical before, uh... But there would be a danger of that, right?
I guess so.
I guess so.
No, listen, I don't want to put words in your mouth at all.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
I mean... I don't think my father would, like, physically, like, push me or anything like that.
I just think it would get very, like, in my face.
Okay, and then you in your face back to him.
Back in his face.
Every time he escalates, you escalate even more.
Then what?
I mean, I guess if it doesn't end, it would have to get physical, right?
Yeah.
Either one person back down, or it gets physical.
If he's screaming in your face, you push him the fuck away, right?
Yeah.
and then you're in the physical realm.
I mean, tell me if I'm wrong.
I guess I'm wrong.
I mean, tell me if I'm wrong.
Again, I don't want to put words in your mouth.
This is the way that I've seen these things escalate, but I could be wrong.
It's a little hard for me to kind of envision it getting to that point, just because I'm always the one that's backing down and holding my tongue.
Of course, but why are you backing down?
Now it's not because you're a quote coward or like it's it that's boring useless talk that doesn't mean anything because that's not based on curiosity.
Why are you backing down?
And we say this with open curiosity and with an acceptance that you're an intelligent young man who has more than a smidge of wisdom about him So there must be some rational reason why you backed down.
I mean ultimately I guess it would be fear of getting hurt.
Well, it's worse than that.
It's fear of hurting him.
Okay.
Okay.
I mean, you're already getting hurt by backing down, right?
Yeah.
It's soul-crushing.
Okay, let me ask you this.
What is your father's relationship to you if you don't back down, don't apologize, and don't lie about what you really think?
I'm not calling you a liar.
It's a perfectly valid strategy when you're in a situation of aggression.
But what is your relationship with your father like if you stop apologizing, stop backing down and tell him the truth?
I don't think there'd be much of a relationship at all.
Right.
Do you have value to him outside of apologizing, bowing down, subjugating him and appeasing his aggression?
Other than maybe a status symbol, no.
Well no, but the status symbol requires that you apologize and back down.
Oh.
Oh boy.
He's the big man, he's in charge, he's the patriarch, he's the father, what he says goes.
If you're not backing down, Or, imagine this.
If he says something snippy to you in public, and you also don't back down and escalate.
Oh no.
See, now there we're at the core, right?
What happens then?
It won't be uh Oh man, I'm sorry.
What happens? If I don't back down.
I mean I've never seen him back...
Well...
I'm sorry.
Oh, you've seen him back down off his aggression countless times, when the phone rings, when
someone knocks on the door, when people come over, when...
whatever, right?
Yeah.
I mean, if he... I'm not saying this would ever happen, or has happened, but if he's yelling at his kids in the car, and then the cop pulls him over, is he nice to the cop?
Of course he is.
He's not possessed by temper, it's just being angry is a strategy that works with his little kids, but it doesn't work with the cop, so he'll switch out of it.
It's just a strategy, it's a chess move.
He's also a so I think that ah, okay The own like something that's still confusing me with this
though is that my little my the uh, the next brother in line
Uh, he's a lot more like rebellious, uh, a lot more, uh, I guess, confident, uh, confrontational in many ways than I am.
And he will get into minor conflicts with my father in which they still end up talking afterwards.
Yeah, I'm happy to hear more about that.
Uh... Like, my little brother definitely, uh... He resembles my father a lot more in terms of looks.
Now that I'm thinking about it.
And they seem to sh- They share more, uh... They share more, like, interests.
They definitely have... A lot more similar traits than me and my father do.
And he seems to have that same, uh...
I guess that same reaction that my father has when it comes to, you know, if he's told no or, you know, my father has an issue with something that he's doing.
I know that's vague.
Uh, and you know, he will, you know, he'll like raise his voice and be like, Hey, my brother, that is like, you know, he will, uh, you know, he will like raise his voice and whatnot.
And, uh, sorry, I'm just trying to find the right words.
Well, he'll push back with your dad, right?
A bit.
Yeah.
Much more so than myself.
Okay.
And how's his life going?
You don't have to give me details, but how's his life going as a whole?
Uh, so he was never, he was never like an academic.
Uh, his grades are service, like his grades are, his grades are okay.
Uh, in terms of a direction though, he's much better off than I am.
He wants to pursue aviation and he's currently learning how to fly.
Like he has a much more, uh, solid direction than I do.
He also has a girlfriend.
So in that regard, his life, or I guess in most regards, his life is much better than mine.
Right.
Right.
Now, I mean, sibling stuff is very complicated, so I'll just provide a few rough strokes.
Maybe they fit, maybe they don't.
But, if your father... You're the eldest, is that right?
Correct.
Okay.
So, your father would have tried to break you as an example to the other kids.
Plus, when it came to feeling like the big tough guy, your father would get compliance out of you, which would give him a sense of dominance, and he wouldn't need that as much from the other kids.
Also, if there are personality incompatibilities or differences.
Incompatibilities doesn't mean that you fight, it just means that, you know, maybe you're more artistic and he's more concrete or, you know, just means that there's, you know, cross-pollination, right?
A lot of variety, a lot of dice rolls in human nature.
But it could also be that you are More concerned with consequences, because you were given more responsibility over the younger kids, and part of being more concerned with consequences is seeing how things play out.
Like, when you're in charge of younger kids, you don't wait for them to get into a disastrous situation, you play it out ahead of your time, ahead of time, so that you can prevent it, right?
So maybe you're thinking more in terms of consequences, and maybe you can see a little further down the road of your brother what happens if you really stand up to your father, or something like that, right?
Yeah, it's possible.
I definitely take care of my little brothers often, so... Right, so that would put you in more of a caretaker role, which means you really have to think about the consequences.
Whereas the second brother, maybe he doesn't have to think as much of the consequences.
Maybe he's just not, you know, it may not be an intelligence thing, it may just be some people see over the time horizon further and better than others.
Grasshopper the ant stuff, right?
Sorry?
Yeah.
Noah, that's actually very good that you say that.
I don't think there's a big difference in terms of our smarts or anything like that, but I definitely have more of a caretaker role than he does.
Right, right. So, he also... what's his relationship to your compliance?
Does he get frustrated by it?
Does he notice at all, like your appeasement, your sorry, sorry, sorry?
Does he help you with it, or what?
No, I hate to say it, but our relationship is fairly surface level.
We will do things, like we'll do things together on occasion, and you know, sometimes we'll sit down and talk, you know, what's going on with you, more so geared towards him.
Uh, but no, he's never, uh, he's never addressed it.
The only, the only time I could really think of was when we both, uh, went away on a trip.
It was me, him, and a cousin of my age.
Uh, something, uh, this beggar came up and made up this grand story about, you know, needing money for like the bus to get there.
Child home or something like that.
I don't remember the details.
And I ended up giving them like 20 bucks.
Like, hey, you know, whatever.
Just take it.
Get out of here.
And he was just like, like, clearly that was totally like made up.
That was fabricated.
And he decides, he decides to pursue him.
And he's like, hey, you know, you, you know, and he's, he's shouting.
I'm like, oh, sorry.
Sorry.
Uh, I was like, hey, bro, just let it go.
Thank you.
Uh, like, hey, just let it go.
You know, and I think he was annoyed with me in that instance, but other than that, it's not really... Wasn't... It never came up.
I mean, so he's pretty aggressive himself, right?
Yeah Yeah.
Much more so than myself.
Right.
Okay, so he... He saw your father's DNA... How much younger than you is he?
Uh, three and a half years.
Okay, so that's quite a bit.
So he would have seen you and your father and say, I'm either dad or my older brother.
I guess so.
Well, you know what?
That hurts.
Why?
I'm not saying you shouldn't, I just want to know why.
I just want to You know, as a big, you know, as an elder brother, you want to be a good example.
You want them to, uh, you know, you want to show them the way and, you know, so that they could, you know, make it on their own.
And I'm sorry, as an older brother, you want to be a good example and show them the way?
What, what do you mean?
Well, not, I'm not disagreeing.
I just, I just really, that's your dad's job.
But what do you, like, I'm starting to figure out like what?
As an older brother, I think it's really important to, at the age of five, pay the taxes and provide for the family.
Right.
Like, that's the dad's job!
Yeah, I guess that is.
Or at least one of the parents!
What do you mean, it's your job to model and, like... Again, I'm trying to figure this, like, you're three years old, or three and a half years older.
You're not the father, you have no authority, you can't run the household, you can't dictate the terms, you can't figure out where you live or where you go to school, you can't figure out the dynamics, you can't impose anything.
How can you have responsibility without authority?
I guess you can.
Oh, so maybe you feel like you failed your siblings by not being their father?
This is all very...
This is all very sister-brother stuff.
Very, very sister-wife and brother-uncle and... Oh, man.
Why the hell would it be your job to raise your siblings?
I mean, that's your parents' job!
Yeah, you're right.
You're right.
But you promoted yourself to, like, local superhero parent shield to your younger siblings and yet, of course, that's just a way of torturing yourself because you can't control the damn thing in the household, right?
Except by appeasing, which I guess is what you did.
Yeah.
So you sacrificed your identity to protect your siblings from your father's temper.
Or your father's bullying.
And my mother, too.
She'd get pretty aggressive with the kids, verbally.
And did you appease her as well?
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so didn't you do the maximum you could to shield your siblings, and then you feel embarrassed that they grew up stronger?
Or more rebellious or whatever?
I mean, isn't that... I mean, you were appeased so that you would blunt your parents' bullying, and so it sounds like you did a pretty good job of shielding your siblings.
Shouldn't you take some pride in that, even though it wasn't your job?
Oh, sorry.
I just never really thought about it that way.
Again, if I'm... I mean, your emotion leads me to think that it could be true, but does it sort of fit with your experience?
Yeah, yeah.
I'm definitely, uh, I'm definitely the most compliant.
The other ones aren't.
No, no, no, no.
See, I'm sorry, I gotta be annoying because the language is important, right?
Sure, sure.
So, if your siblings are playing at a park, Right, and you happen to have, let's really make a crazy scenario here, right?
You happen to have a Slim Jim in your pocket.
I don't know if you know what those are, it's like a dried meat thing, right?
Right.
Alright.
So you're a little... You've got a Slim Jim in your pocket.
And some dog rushes, barking like crazy, at your siblings.
And you take the Slim Jim out, you rip open the wrapper, you throw it off to one side, the dog goes for that instead, right?
Yeah.
Are all you gonna talk about is how much you missed that Slim Jim?
How sad it was and what a regretful decision you had that you could have really enjoyed that Slim Jim, but instead you just threw it away?
You appeased to protect your siblings.
Because it de-escalated things.
Because they already saw your parents fighting.
They didn't want to see you in a chokehold with your dad as well.
and that's kind of an instinct that older siblings, particularly older brothers have
that you self erased in order to defuse the aggression in the household because
if you hadn't self erased, if you didn't appease, it would have escalated to
potentially insane levels.
Right.
It would have been so much worse.
So... and then you feel like you failed them?
In some ways.
Okay, tell me what... now you've got the hindsight of wisdom, what should you have done differently?
And I'm open to hearing what it is.
Thank you.
I guess the biggest one with the brother we were talking about before, who's more similar to my father.
Growing up, I hung out with a neighbor of ours close to my age, about a year younger.
And he at times could be a bit of a bull.
He could be a bully at times.
And whenever my little brother was around, he would, uh, he would sometimes pick, pick on him and like call him names.
And, uh, and I would appease, I just like wouldn't say anything when I wish I would have, you know, stick up for my brother.
Okay, and why do you think, again with open curiosity, without condemnation, which is boring,
why do you think you didn't?
I think a part of it was, you know, he was my closest friend at the time.
I was scared to, uh, strain a friendship.
Nope.
Nope, nope, nope.
That's, that's very, uh, very, very, it's a very appealing theory.
But that's not it.
Is it me mirroring the same behavior with my father?
Okay, let's say you stick up to your friend who's a bully, right?
And you gain that skill of sticking up to aggressors, right?
Sticking up and opposing aggressors.
So what happens when you have that skill and your father escalates?
What happens at home?
Well, you use those skills.
And then what happens?
Escalation we already went down that road, right?
I never considered that before you
you I mean, if you learn how to stick up to bullies, if you learn how to stand up to bullies, then you'll apply it at home.
And then the whole purpose of trying to shield your siblings from aggression is Gone.
The whole plan.
The whole shielding, right?
Then you go from trying to shield you well and successfully shielding your siblings from trauma to inflicting trauma, right?
Yeah.
It's like my biggest fear.
Yeah.
We've got a very aggressive set of parents in the house.
I gotta appease them.
Gotta throw that Slim Jim so the kids don't get it mauled.
Oh, man.
It's tough to hear.
Again, I don't want to sound overly tentative, but if it fits, it fits.
If it doesn't, we can look elsewhere.
But I mean that's certainly what I see from the outside which doesn't mean that there's any truth in that.
I mean who was going to protect your siblings if not you?
you Right.
Now, the problem is, to get to the present, right, the problem is, and listen, I mean, to me you get a giant chest full of medals for what you did as a kid.
Good for you.
Like, noble, heroic, tragic, but noble and heroic.
Now, the problem is, what do you do Without someone to protect.
What do you do when you're not living to shield others from trauma?
Because that's your life right now, right?
Yeah.
Well, if you have lived self-erasing to shield others from trauma, what happens when you don't have anyone to shield from trauma?
Well, your self doesn't magically pop back into existence, right?
No.
Because I do it with everyone.
Right.
That's your habit, that's your treadmill, that's your rent.
It's killing me.
I know I can't go on doing what I'm doing.
No, I get that, and I appreciate the intelligence and wisdom of the call that you're bringing to bear on the challenge, right?
Right.
So what's the solution when you don't have others to protect?
Do you start protecting yourself?
Well, you're not in a situation, I mean, unless I misunderstand your living situation, you're not in a situation of intense or significant bullying at the moment, right?
Uh, no, no.
Uh, I am... Except yourself a little bit, putting yourself down, but that's not major, but there's a little bit of that, right?
Yeah.
I mean, I'm still living with my parents, but they largely leave me alone.
And why are you still living with your parents?
Again, not whether you should or shouldn't, I'm just curious.
I apologize, this is a bit long.
Sorry, I'm not gonna apologize.
Originally, I went away for my first semester of college, but I was struggling a little bit because, you know, I was You know, I wanted to, I guess, be there for my siblings in terms of moral instruction and things like that.
I know that sounds wonky, but at the time I was really starting to take my faith... Yeah, wonky is how you've lived your whole life!
Sorry, go ahead.
At the time I was taking my faith a lot more seriously than I had in years past, which was never really something I took seriously until, you know, senior year of high school, freshman year of college.
And my thought process at the time was that You know, I wanted to, like, help him with moral instruction and maybe avoid some of the perils that, uh, I fell into.
Uh, and plus I totally... Sorry, what were those perils?
Uh... I mean, at the time, like, a lot of, like, lust, pornography, uh, things like that.
things like that.
Okay.
And I totally tanked my first semester as well.
Ugh.
But those were the thoughts going through my mind.
Sorry, what happened?
Did you not study or not attend?
I just didn't really attend any of my classes.
Right, okay.
So I ended up coming back, enrolling in my local community college.
And I'm sorry, why did you not attend your classes?
Were you doing something else?
Were you hungover?
What were you doing?
Sure, sure.
I never did any drugs.
It was mostly just watching a lot of videos, a lot of religious, political stuff at the time, and just kind of wasting my day, if I'm being totally honest.
Well, I'm trying to fix... I mean, you knew you had to go to school, right?
I mean, that was the plan, that was the idea.
Yeah.
So when you think of going to classes, what would happen?
I mean, oftentimes I would wake up in the morning.
I'd go on my phone.
It would take really long to get ready.
And then I would end up being late to class by like 5 or 10 minutes.
And then eventually... Sorry.
Then eventually, the habits would get worse and worse and I would just stop attending altogether.
Partially out of like the embarrassment of showing up late to class constantly.
I know that's really bad.
Well, no, I'm not judging.
I'm genuinely curious.
I mean, that's interesting that you would sign up to go to school and then not go to classes.
Okay, so what that means, of course, is that your desire to go to school did not come out of yourself, right?
Not at all.
No.
Okay, so you were just complying, and like most people who comply, there's passive aggression, right?
If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean by passive aggression?
Well, I mean, the slave will do a bad job.
Not so bad he gets beaten, right?
So if, you know, if someone makes you do something, you'll do it, because they can make you do it, but you're not going to be invested in the quality, right?
You're not going to do a good job.
Does that make sense?
Yes, yes.
So, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Okay.
I appreciate the clarification.
So why did you go to college?
I mean the big I guess the big thing was that everyone whom I knew was going to college.
I also went to a fairly prestigious high school.
And, you know, the expectation, you know, everyone goes to college, you know, things like that.
My parents always pushed for it growing up.
Right, and listen, I understand that and, you know, young people are at a huge, there's a huge amount of pressure to go to college, right?
It comes with the culture, the parents, the programming, everything, right?
Yeah.
Perception of the job market and so on, right?
So, listen, I don't fault you with that, for that at all.
I don't fault you for anything, I'm just, again, I just want to find out the lay of the land, right?
You know, if I'm... I feel almost like an anthropologist, you know, like, I'm not judging the tribe, I just want to understand how it works, I'm not... Like, Lewis and Clark weren't there, oh, man, I hate the location of this river, it's just like, hey, I wonder where this river goes, you know, that's for me, I'm not judging the landscape, I'm just mapping the territory, so... Yeah, so I understand that, and your teachers didn't inspire you to come, right?
No, I never really had a, uh, sorry.
Yeah, you didn't have any good teachers, because you'd rather watch teachers on YouTube, so to speak, right?
People who can give you videos of some kind of instruction, right?
Yeah, that's pretty accurate.
Your teachers sucked, right?
Yeah.
But you blame yourself, right?
Yeah, I do.
Okay, what's the most boring movie you've ever seen, and why is it Dune?
No, what is the most boring movie you've ever seen?
Do you remember?
The most boring movie I've ever seen?
I wish I did.
Yeah, you probably wouldn't remember, right?
Okay, so we'll just talk about Dune.
Okay, it's dry.
Boy, talk about the dialogue.
So, like a really boring movie, do you blame yourself for not paying attention?
No, no.
That sounds pretty wacky.
Yeah, I mean, it's the filmmaker's job to make a film that interests you, right?
Yes.
We have giant space lasers, but we're going to make everyone fight with knives.
It's such a retarded movie.
It really is.
It makes absolutely no sense.
At all.
At all.
I mean, literally half the time they're dropping giant rocket bombs from space, but then it's like, no, I'm taking this guy out with a kitchen knife.
My God, that's just ridiculous.
Anyway, so, but it's the job of the filmmaker to make the film interesting, engaging, or make sense of any kind, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so it's your teacher's job to be interesting, particularly in college, because it's optional, right?
But you kind of went rubber bones because you're not... You don't know how to demand quality because demanding quality could have got you killed as a child.
I'm not kidding about that.
I mean, as far as our instincts go, right?
You don't know how to demand quality because if you'd said to your parents, stop fighting, be adults, be mature, deal with your shit, and be better parents, you guys kind of suck at times.
I mean, what would have happened, right?
Grenade in the tent, right?
Right.
And so, for you, saying to your teachers, like you go to a class or two and you're like, oh my god, this is... I mean, did you even look up ahead and did you get reviews of the teachers or the classes or the... anything like that in college?
No, I was just totally... Yeah, you just kind of signed up and showed up, right?
Yeah.
And so, for you, and listen, great sympathy for all of this, you don't know how to demand quality in your relationships.
I really don't.
Right, and how could you?
Because demanding quality, your instincts would say demanding quality would get me killed, right?
I mean, go to most religious institutions in the Middle Ages and point out their contradictions and say, you guys need to resolve this because this stuff doesn't make any sense.
Well, welcome to your funeral pyre, right?
So demanding quality in society It's really dangerous, because all the people who provide shit quality don't want to be called out, right?
So you don't know how to go to the class and say, oh my god, I barely listened to anything this teacher is saying, this sucks, I'm not spending money on this.
And so because you don't know how, are you ready for the big one?
Okay, because you don't know as yet how to demand quality in a relationship. You can't date
How could you Amen.
You'll pay tens of thousands of dollars to go to a college and be bored out of your gourd.
What's going to happen if you date?
You don't know how to demand quality.
You don't know how to not appease.
what kind of woman are you going to attract by apologizing for breathing in her proximity?
And because you don't know how to demand quality, you can't have ambition.
Because ambition is the demand of future quality for yourself.
Future quality of life, future quality of experience.
Does this make sense?
I'm sorry, I know I'm kind of running hard here.
No, it's okay.
Can you, uh, do you mind just repeating that last sentence?
So, because you don't know how to demand quality in a relationship, you don't, you can't have ambition.
Because ambition is saying, I demand a future quality of life for myself.
Right, so why do I spend eight hours a week doing really boring exercises?
is because I demand a future quality of life from myself.
So, ambition is deferring gratification.
you Deferring gratification means I want a higher quality of something later.
Right?
You save money to go on a vacation, right?
So you defer gratification so you have a higher quality of something later, which is the vacation, if this makes sense.
No, it does.
It does.
So how can you have ambition if you don't know how to demand quality even from your future self?
Because your future self is kind of reaching back through time saying, get us to the right place.
Get us to a happy place.
But you don't know how to demand quality.
And how could you?
It would have been directly dangerous, if not downright deadly, in your instincts to do that as a child.
I mean, can you imagine?
You're in grade 5, or grade 4, or grade 3, and some teacher's droning on.
You put your hand up and you say, This is totally boring and irrelevant.
I'm straining my young, wet brain to try and figure out how this means anything to anyone.
Like, this has got to mean more.
This has got to be... Oh, you say that at church, or wherever you weren't getting good service, right?
Wherever you weren't getting quality.
I mean, the whole point of the modern world is to get people to give up on quality and just go with the flow, because that way the bullies can push all over you, right?
Yeah.
That's what I've done my entire life.
So you asked, very gently, From your mother, you said, can I just get a little bit of higher quality in your relationship with Dad?
And she's like, you lie!
None of this is true!
Moving on, right?
You demanded some improvement, right?
You said, oh, you didn't even demand.
You timidly, and I understand why, that's not an insult, right?
You timidly requested some improvement in quality, and what happened?
Nothing.
Well, you got insulted, and rejected, and hurt.
And your mother's colossal lack of care for your happiness was tragically revealed, in my opinion.
Are you worth quality?
Can you expect quality?
Your brother, who ran after the beggar, Did not express any curiosity as to your thought processes in giving him the twenty dollars, right?
Yeah.
You're an idiot for doing that!
He's a total chiseler!
Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah!
I'm gonna yell at him and... right?
Yeah.
I mean... Curiosity... I'm not trying to bag on the guy, I'm just saying that... Right?
A quality person shows curiosity as to who you are and why you do what you do.
They don't just... kind of half insult you and... Sorry, you were gonna say that?
No, no, I don't think it's relevant.
I mean, if you look at this conversation, I mean, I think I'm asking a bunch of questions and continually saying, this is not a judgment, I'm curious, I don't know if you should or shouldn't, I'm not sure if I'm right, I'm curious as to whether I'm right, so this is just a whole bunch of curiosity, and I'm not trying to judge or condemn you, because prior to knowledge, how could you judge anything, right?
I've got a piece of land to sell you.
It's going to be a million dollars.
Do you want to pay it?"
It's like, I might need a few more details than that, right?
I don't know.
How can I judge the value of something until I know what it is, right?
If it's downtown Manhattan, an acre, yeah, okay, I'll pay a million bucks for that.
I can dig it up somewhere.
Or if it's somewhere in Florida, you'll never tell me, in a swampland, probably not, right?
So, quality and curiosity are kind of the same things.
It's very easy to just run to judgment and condemn people or put them down.
I mean, that's just easy and boring and it's very low quality, right?
Yeah.
So, what does it mean or how do you get to the place where you can demand quality?
I don't know.
Well, you have to first recognize that you're embedded in a situation which is not exactly overflowing with quality, if I understand this correctly.
In terms of relationships?
Yeah, I mean, it doesn't sound like you have an excess of intelligent, wise, moral, and curious people in your life.
No, I don't think so.
I mean, I have a couple of good I have a couple of good friends, who I kind of met through getting back into my faith, but no one in my family, really.
Now, the basis of building your life out of the ashes, out of trash planet, as I've sort of called it recently, is just three words.
I deserve better.
I deserve better.
Now if I can get better for those around me, fantastic.
But I'm not putting up with this crap anymore.
I'm not putting up with the stupid snippy bickertons yelling at each other half the day.
I'm not putting up with, you know, pornography as a substitute for a relationship.
I'm not putting up with emptily consuming other people's media rather than putting my own footprint in the world.
Putting up with repetition, boredom, trash, reaction, manipulation, insults.
Like, I'm just... I deserve better.
I... Now, you kind of need to earn better, but, you know, you sound like a very good and thoughtful young man, so I'm sure you're not out there setting fire to cat shelters.
So... Dog shelters.
Maybe.
No, I'm kidding.
But... I deserve better.
Do you deserve better?
Do you deserve better than what you've been getting?
Yes.
Right.
Okay, so if you deserve better, it ain't gonna just happen.
Right?
If you say, you know, I have to work towards doubling my income, well, it's not just gonna happen, right?
People aren't just gonna wake up one day and say, hey, we're gonna double your wages.
That's not gonna happen.
Like, you have to work towards it, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Now, I deserve better comes with two things.
Well, three things.
Resolution, hope and anger.
The resolution is I deserve better and I'm going to find a way to get it.
I was not, not going to live the rest of my life in the trash planet I came from.
Just full of reactive, immature, crazy, violent, addicted weirdos.
Like, just no.
And I'm not calling your family that, I'm just talking about my own personal exact... I'm not.
I'm not living down here for the rest of my life.
That would just... that would not even be a life.
I don't know what that would be.
That would be just awful beyond words.
That's a fate worse than death.
If I'd ended up, I don't know, marrying some woman like my mother and living in some crappy apartment in Some half-ghetto and having some crappy job and getting yelled at all day.
Like, that's a fate worse to death for me.
Like, I would do anything to not end up there.
Now, the resolution is I deserve better.
The hope is I can get better.
and the anger is I'm mad at the people
who forced me to accept worse you know I'm not just I wasn't just angry at my mother for
what she did I was angry that she surrounded me with all of these terrible people.
all these predatory men and alcoholic women and just mess, messy people.
So she didn't say, I have to find some way to get better people around my kids.
I was angry that my expectations got hammered to such a low and pitiful degree.
I was angry at being force-fed shit sandwiches for 15 years before I finally had to gag, throw up and go in search of better food.
So I think you have every right to be angry.
at those around you, and I would say in particular your parents, though it could be other authority figures in your life, teachers and aunts and uncles or whoever, priests maybe, who did not work to guard your soul and preserve your free will and independence.
You know, it's a Catholic mainstay that you cannot sin if you're under compulsion.
And you were under compulsion as a child.
Because there was this aggression.
Were you hit as a child?
Not, uh... That is one thing I will say.
I don't ever remember being, like, hit out of punishment.
I remember, like, early, early on... A few, uh... I remember, like, a lot of... Maybe not a lot, but some, like, timeouts.
And... Sometimes they would, uh...
Like, walk out the door and pretend to leave and whatnot, but no, no- But they would pretend to abandon you?
I'm sorry, this is a new one for me.
A cou- A couple times, uh... A couple times, I believe, if I was, like, acting up or whatnot, they would pretend to... leave the house.
If you were acting up?
Sorry, sorry, bad.
It's a bad term.
Oh, so you, you forced your, you, you bastard, you forced your poor parents out of the house when you were three?
Oh, monster!
I think, now that I'm, now that I'm thinking about it, it was more so in the context of me, like, not wanting to, like, go in the car if we were going somewhere or something like that.
Right, because the car wasn't fun for you.
Because you didn't like the car because your parents would either be fighting with each other or cold silence or because the car wasn't fun for you.
I mean, of course parents need to get their kids to go places and the best way to do that is to make it fun in the car.
You play your I Spy, you play your kids' favorite songs, you play riddles, you make jokes, you make the car enjoyable so your kids don't get into it like you're climbing into some Iron Maiden.
That makes sense.
Those didn't happen super often, maybe a few times from what I remember, but no, nothing physical.
No physical punishments wherever.
And so your parents obviously did read some books on parenting, right?
Although I haven't spoken about it with them a lot.
The timeouts is kind of a new thing, right?
So they must have taken some training or Read read something or watch something or they did something because I assume your parents weren't in the timeout generation So they did something to up their skills.
I assume yes, my my mother told me she's read Parenting books when you know, they were fantastic.
Okay, so then she would have read the parenting books that say don't fight in front of your kids, right?
I would think so.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so so that's great.
I mean, that's obviously that's wonderful.
I That's a huge relief to me, and I think should be to you.
It is.
Why?
It definitely shows a level of care.
No.
Oh my God.
The parenting books say don't fight in front of your kids.
Your parents repeatedly, every day or two, fight in front of their kids, right?
Yeah.
So it means, you know, what else is required for sin is knowledge.
You have to know that what you're doing is wrong.
Right?
Right.
Yes.
Okay.
So your parents knew what they were doing was wrong, because they'd read the books.
They knew that fighting in front of the kids is really, really bad.
Yeah.
I mean, I've read a bunch of books, and fighting in front of the kids is a no-no.
And as is also dumping adult problems like marital issues on a ten-year-old.
Or any age, really, right?
That was bad, yeah.
No, so that's a wonderful relief, because they weren't acting out of ignorance.
So they knew it was wrong, and repeatedly did it anyway, and I assume are still doing it to this day, so we're pushing a quarter century of conscious sin.
Yeah, yeah, not too far off.
So, that's all on them.
They can't claim that they were doing the best they could with the knowledge they had.
They can't claim that they didn't know, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so that's a huge relief.
In the same way it's a huge relief when your parents claim that they were just disciplining you, but they never were harsh to you in public.
Because then they could always control their temper, which means they're fully responsible for their temper.
So, to get angry at having been forced to accept such bad behavior is kind of foundational to deserving better, right?
If you say I deserve better, you have to be angry at not being provided better in the past when you really needed it.
The fact that you have to now consciously raise your standards and demand better against all of your instincts of subjugation and self-erasure is something to be angry about.
Anger signals that you aren't in a situation of danger, or overwhelming danger that you can't manage, right?
Anger doesn't?
Anger does.
Anger does.
Yeah.
So, if you're in a situation where you can fight, then anger will give you the fight, right?
If you're in a situation where you can flee, then fear gives you the flight, right?
Now, if you're in a situation where you can't fight and you can't flee, you freeze, right?
So it's fight, flight, or freeze, right?
So you froze, as did I, as did every single child who's mistreated, or neglected.
We freeze, right?
That's, that's so, like, I'm sorry, that's so, like, crazy that, uh, that you say that, because that's literally, like, what I do.
In any, like, any situation where there's any, where I, like, perceive any semblance of, like, conflict or discomfort, I'll just, like, I'll just, like, go silent.
I'll just, like, start freaking out.
It's like, it's like fight or flight, but you just... No, it's freeze!
Everyone forgets the freeze, right?
But freeze is childhood.
Can't escape, can't fight.
So you freeze.
Animals do it too, right?
If they can run away, they'll run away.
If they can fight, they'll fight.
If not, they'll just freeze in place, right?
I mean, you see this with rabbits, right?
If you've ever been around rabbits in the wild, you get close to them, they'll freeze.
If you get too close, they'll run, but they won't fight.
So, to be in a situation where you had to freeze meant you were in a situation of danger.
Now, anger says that the situation of danger is past.
And you can change what's happening.
But if as long as you continue to freeze and avoid anger, your unconscious assumes that you're still in the situation of danger where self-assertion could equal death.
So if you refuse to get angry, you're simply programming your mind to not change.
Anger is a signal that you're out of overwhelming danger.
Now, anger could mean confrontation.
Anger could mean simply mental boundaries.
It doesn't have to be anything that you do.
Anger could also be getaway.
It could be any number of things.
But your authenticity and your honesty and your sense of self and requirement for quality were largely opposed, if not erased, when you were a kid, if I understand it correctly.
That sounds about right.
And that's a shitty way to treat a child.
Children are not there to serve their parents' status or vanity.
Or to keep their parents appeased.
Or to manage their parents' volatile emotions.
That's not what children are for.
Children aren't there as accessories or pets or emotional props or tampons for their parents.
Children aren't there to be used by their parents for status or pretend emotional self-regulation.
That's not what kids are for.
Kids are there to be sheltered, loved, protected, nurtured and raised.
It's a beautiful thing. That's what it's... every...
And everybody knows that.
Everybody knows that's what parenting is for and that's what children are there for.
You don't have children to prop up your ego or blame them if you're in a bad mood.
That's beyond childish.
I hate the word childish because it's kind of an insult to children.
But to demand better means to be angry at getting worse for many years.
How is that something you get back?
Like how is that something you get back?
What do you mean?
Yeah, but identity?
Yeah.
Identity or... Hold on, let me think.
Well, how do you get back something that was stolen?
First of all, you have to accept that it was stolen.
Then you have to accept that it was wrong, that it was stolen from you, you gotta get angry about it, and you gotta go take it back.
Now, I know that you're on the take it back part, but I'm still on the, do you even know that you got stolen from?
Right.
You're trying to get to the heroic, Mission Impossible-themed recovery of the stolen goods, right?
I'm like, do you know that you were stolen from?
Can you get angry about it?
Because if you're like, well, you know, they took it, so what?
You know, no biggie, happens to everyone.
What did you say at the beginning of this call?
Well, you know, my childhood wasn't nearly as bad as other people who've called in.
I don't, like, there's no comparison there.
There's no comparisons there.
Your childhood was your childhood.
And the fact, that's always a warning sign to me when people, oh, compared to, you know, I was raped, but compared to mass rape, it's not so bad.
It's like, what?
That's not how the unconscious works.
When you were a kid, you didn't have adult callers to free domain in 20 years going on.
That was a form of self-minimization and self-erasure.
So first you get, how do you get something back to be stolen?
You accept that you were stolen from, you get angry that it was stolen, and you say, I'm worth getting it back.
Now, how do you take it back?
Well, you stop apologizing, you stop appeasing, and you start saying to yourself, in relationships, What values does this bring to me?
How does this help me?
How does this serve me?
What's good for me?
Now, you couldn't think about that with regards to your parents because they'd get really mad if as a kid you demanded quality from your parents.
I mean, they threatened to abandon you, which children, by the way, receive as a death threat.
Parental abandonment is death for children.
So your parents threatened to kill you because you wouldn't get in the car.
No, I mean, that's how, it's like when I see parents, and I've done this a couple of times, when I see parents, well, I'm leaving, right?
They're at some park, the kid won't come, I'm leaving.
I'm like, you know, that's a death threat, right?
You got a four-year-old there.
That's a death threat.
Don't do that.
Well, I don't know how to, I don't know either, but threatening ain't gonna do it.
You might get immediate compliance, but you're sowing the seeds.
To long-term destruction.
So, listen, you get your identity back, you get yourself back, sure, because it's yearning in there, it wants to get out, that's why you're calling me, I assume, right?
Yeah.
So yeah, you want it back, you get it back, you've got to recognize what you're stolen from, you've got to get kind of pissed about it, because that gives you the motive to go and get your stuff back.
Go get yourself back.
And that means, no, I'm not apologizing.
Listen, I'll apologize if I do something wrong, of course, but I'm not going to apologize
for not knowing something, I'm not going to apologize for breathing, I'm not going to
apologize for having a preference.
You know, and, you know, I mean, you can see just how terrible the parenting is these days
because everything in society is, you better not have a preference!
I'm I don't want to date a fat woman.
You're fatphobic, you better not have a preference!
I'd like equal opportunity to j... No!
To jobs?
No!
You're not castigating yourself for the historical sins of your ancestors, right?
Like, everything is about, like, you can't have a preference, and having a preference is bigoted, prejudicial, phobic, right?
The whole nine yards.
So, yeah, I mean, trying to have a preference back, you know?
I mean, of course people, people who are crappy don't want you to have preferences or quality, right?
Of course.
I mean, if you want to have relationships with people and you're kind of crappy, you either raise your standards of behavior or you lower their standards of relationships.
I mean, if college was great, you wouldn't need all this propaganda about go to college or you're going to live under a bridge.
You wouldn't need all the propaganda, right?
College sucks.
College is riding on a past wave of competence, when only 10% of people went to college.
Now half of people go to college, which means college has just lowered its standards.
Okay.
So, college, you know, college when your parents were younger, maybe college meant more, but college now is just a giant badge of empty-headed conformity and social regurgitation of social credit falsehoods.
Anyway, don't have to get into that whole thing, but Yeah, so you got stolen from?
I'm really sorry about that.
It was totally wrong.
It's maybe time to get upset or angry that you were stolen from.
And that doesn't mean going and yelling at your parents.
I don't know what that means because the emotion is what matters.
If someone steals something from you, you say, well, you know, I guess I didn't deserve to have it anyway.
Are you ever going to get it back?
back? Nope. But no, you had your sovereign preferences and identity largely submerged,
not stolen from you, because you're still you, right?
But you've got to get it back, and it's wrong that you were stolen from.
You've got every reason to be upset about that.
What that means, I don't know.
Just, like, how anger manifests, obviously, don't be abusive, don't be violent, I don't need to say that to you, of course, right?
But, you just know that you are angry.
I don't know how that manifests.
It doesn't have to manifest in any particular way.
I mean, the fantasies of anger I had about my mother did not result ever in me yelling at her or calling her names.
But I definitely allowed myself to have those aggressive thoughts.
Because that's saying that I was treated badly and it should be better.
But you can't improve without getting angry at the degradation.
That's an essential part.
You can't lose weight without being angry at the fat, to some degree, right?
Or angry at the people who enabled the fat, or angry at the people who encouraged it, or sabotaged it, or whatever, right?
That's not the only thing, but it's definitely an important thing.
So that would be my sort of thoughts and suggestions, if that makes sense.
That actually does make a lot of sense.
Is there anything else you wanted to mention?
Have we had a useful chat?
I also wanted to check and see if the value's been added in a way that makes sense to you.
No, Stefan, it's been incredible.
Thank you so much.
You're absolutely welcome, my friend, and I really, really appreciate your flexibility about the call.
And listen, I hope, hope, hope that you will Keep in contact.
Let me know how things are going, because you're a really fine young man, and you should be very proud of the thought.
You're way ahead of where I was at your age, and I think you should be enormously proud of the progress you're making in life.
These are very, very powerful questions to be asking at such a young age, and I think that that curiosity will serve you very well over the course of your life.
Thank you, Steph.
I appreciate it.
Thanks, brother.
Take care.
Have a great day.
You too.
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