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Sept. 21, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:15:20

I CAN'T GET ANGRY!

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Time	Text
	Hi!
	Hello, how's it going?
	Good, and you?
	Bad.
	I'm not sure if you're on a headset or not.
	Your audio sounds a little bit rough.
	If you can just have a quick check on Skype to make sure that it's using the right headset.
	If it is, that's fine.
	We'll go ahead.
	But just wanted to check.
	I don't have a headset right now.
	OK, don't worry about it.
	Don't worry about it.
	It's fine then.
	OK, so yeah, I'm sorry to hear about what's going on.
	I'm all ears.
	How can I help?
	I'm very much stuck in my life.
	I'm 35 now, and I work in a dead-end job.
	I'm a dishwasher in a hotel, in a kitchen.
	I have had a lot of trauma in my life early on.
	This is somehow constantly repeating.
	I keep wanting to go from these kind of surroundings, this type where I am now, and I keep ending up in the same places with just the same type of people, but different names, if you know what I mean.
	I do.
	Yeah.
	Is there more to add?
	Sorry, that's a bit of a scant beginning.
	Yeah, yeah.
	We can go into more detail.
	I wanted to give... Well, let's do the childhood stuff, because obviously the adult stuff is probably a reflection of that.
	Yeah.
	Can you maybe ask questions and I would answer a little bit about... You said that you were around a fair amount of violence in your childhood.
	If you could tell me a little bit about that.
	So I would maybe separate it in two parts.
	There was violence that was happening in my home and there was violence that was happening in school.
	So at home I was mostly beaten by my father and my mother was a very passive player to say so in this And in school, there were these children who were bullying me every day.
	And this was happening for about eight years in my primary school, during breaks when the classes did not happen, during breaks in between.
	And what was maybe even worse, when the classes finished and then we went home, and then they would kind of behave like they're hunting me, you know, I would have to run and hide anywhere I could so that they don't catch me and, you know, intimidate me and beat me.
	So, in general, it was like this.
	And do you have siblings?
	Yes, I have a sister.
	And how was it for her?
	At home, my father was somehow very distant and cold to her while he was beating me.
	But I remember he hit her, I think, once only.
	But he was mostly very cold and distant to her.
	And in school, I'm not sure.
	I think she was not bullied or anything.
	And your mother?
	What was she like?
	She was very passive Of this um, and there were some
	Complained to her but everything me Sorry, uh your audio was cutting out
	I'm sorry, your audio is cutting out.
	I don't know if you've got good data or something, but sometimes you cut out.
	If you have a router, if you can just stay close to it, or if you're using cell data,
	if you can just make sure, I don't know, whatever you can do to get some new bars.
	I just want to make sure.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yes, I'm sorry, I don't have a... not my... I'm sorry about that.
	I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
	I'm sorry, I will try to get closer to the door.
	Is it better now?
	Well, I can't possibly know until you keep talking, so... Alright, let's give it a try.
	So, you were talking about your mother being passive?
	Yes, and I was complaining to her that my father is beating me, but she said that this is not... I'm seeing it wrong, that it's not happening like this.
	I'm sorry, what do you mean it's not happening like this?
	What does she mean by that?
	Well, I remember I was laying in her lap, holding my head in her lap, and she was stroking on my head, and I was telling her how my father is beating me, and she said, no, it's not, it's not, you're not seeing it right.
	Something along those lines, translated from Croatian.
	Okay, but what did she mean by that?
	Did she mean that you weren't being beaten, or it was the wrong word, or... I really don't know.
	She kind of denied it, that it's not... I don't know.
	Was your father violent towards her as well?
	Only verbally.
	She would tell her stuff that she's bad because she's a woman and such things.
	But he did not beat her.
	No.
	And what do you think was in the relationship with your father that he was so violent to you?
	So I was actually speaking with my mother about these things and she all of a sudden remembered that this was like this because my father was jealous of me for some reason.
	My mother loved me very much as she said and then my father felt he didn't get attention and then he was beating me and he was very rough to me because he wanted to, I suppose, get back at her.
	And how often would you get beaten in this way?
	So, when I remember, it was actually not all that often, but I had this constant feeling of fear of him, you know.
	There are some instances where I remember that he hit me on the head, you know, and such things, but I was living in this constant fear of him.
	Right, and I'm just curious how often you would get hit?
	It was not... I don't know, how can I estimate this?
	What metric?
	I don't need an exact number, of course, but was it every week, every month, every six months, every year?
	So physically beaten was, let's say, Every week, once or twice, but verbally it was a bit more often.
	Okay, so you once or twice a week, so you're being assaulted as a child between fifty and a hundred times a year.
	Yes.
	And when did it start and when did it stop?
	I would say it started somewhere around age five.
	And it kind of disappeared and ended when I was about 13, 14.
	You know, I was getting through puberty then and then I was, you know, bigger.
	Yeah, it's amazing how parents find self-restraint when the child gets bigger.
	So, you mean, rule of thumb, roughly you went through 500 to 1,000 beatings from your father?
	Yes.
	Now, you don't seem to have any emotion about this at all.
	I mean, this is absolutely horrifying, appalling, monstrous, evil and destructive.
	It's very difficult for me to connect to this emotionally, you know.
	But why?
	I think it would torn me apart from inside.
	Well, no, no, your life's already a mess, right?
	I mean, what do you have to lose, right?
	The ship's going down, you're in your mid-thirties, you're working a dead-end job, you're very intelligent, you've got training in computer science, so I'm not sure what connecting with this would cost you relative to where you are.
	I could be wrong, but isn't that why you're calling?
	Well, yes, I'm calling if you can uncover something that I don't see, you know, because... Well, sorry, you don't feel any outrage at having had a monstrously evil and abusive upbringing, and then you find in your mid-thirties, because you don't have outrage and horror and anger towards this, you are surrounded by crappy, abusive, dysfunctional people, right?
	Yes.
	So how would it cost you to get angry, having been assaulted five hundred to a thousand times over the course of your vulnerable, helpless, dependent childhood?
	How would that cost you?
	Steph, I have gotten really, really drained out in the last ten years, as I was, let's say, panicking and trying to get away from all of this, and I have I have little to no energy to get angry anymore.
	That's one of the problems.
	My health is in decline.
	Last year there was a lot of decline in my health that happened.
	Sorry, what's happening with your health?
	So I have some kind of cognitive, how to say this, some kind of cognitive detrimental stuff is happening.
	And I have developed this terrible fatigue during the last few years, and mentally I'm starting to be very sluggish, and I'm trying to find a way out of this by learning about diet and nutrition.
	Okay, so how has that been working for you, the diet and nutrition?
	Well, I have learned a lot, but I haven't discovered anything that could really help me.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you're frustrated, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	Now you realize you're trying to transfer that frustration to me at the moment.
	Do you know why?
	Really?
	Yes, absolutely.
	Oh, I'm sorry then.
	You don't have to apologize for what you're doing.
	This is a safe space.
	You can do whatever you want here.
	It's totally fine with me.
	That's really intriguing.
	Can you tell me more?
	How am I doing this?
	Well, sure.
	So you call me, and have you listened to these call-in shows before?
	Yes, I'm following you since 2014, I think, but lately I haven't been watching your videos all that much because of these cognitive problems that I have, so... Okay.
	So, you've listened to a fairly significant number of call-in shows, so you know the general pattern in which I work, right?
	Yes.
	And the general pattern is That if you find yourself surrounded by dysfunctional people, it's because you don't have a defense against dysfunctional people.
	And the reason you don't have a defense against dysfunctional people is because you won't allow yourself to be outraged and angry and upset about childhood abuse.
	Right?
	This is nothing new, this is, right, I mean, you've heard this probably a number of times before, probably not laid out in this direct way, but that's the general, the general thing, right?
	I mean, if you were to go to a doctor and you would say, my immune system is terrible, I keep getting sick, then the doctor would try and find some treatment or approach that would stimulate your immune system to fight off infections, right?
	And so, if you say, well, I'm surrounded by dysfunctional people, it's because your immune system, called anger, is not working to get you away from the dysfunctional people.
	Okay, may I say that sometimes I do get angry, especially at work, but it's... No, I'm not talking about... well, that's a symptom, right?
	That's an effect, it's not a cause.
	So, the reason that you're transferring your frustration to me, or trying to, and I'm not saying there's nothing wrong with what you're doing, you're being honest in the way that you're interacting, so I'm not criticizing or I'm just pointing out the mechanics.
	So, you say to me, yes, I was assaulted by the father who was supposed to protect me five hundred to a thousand times as a child, I feel nothing about it, right?
	More or less.
	So, you're not outraged at dysfunction and evil, and therefore you don't have a defense against it.
	So I say, well, you know, it might be helpful to get in touch with the anger, right?
	And then what do you say?
	Uh, I I said that I cannot get angry or it doesn't help when I get angry
	Well, I can't get angry, it's gonna cost me too much, I have health ailments, I have brain fog, I have physical tiredness, and so on, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	So, if I'm saying to you, the first thing that I suggest might be helpful, you tell me it's impossible.
	It's not impossible, but I have problem doing this.
	I don't know.
	Okay.
	Did you eagerly embrace it and say, gosh, that really does sound like something that would really help, or did you say, here's all the reasons it's not going to happen or is highly unlikely to happen?
	Can you say that again?
	I didn't get it.
	Okay.
	When I said that anger might be helpful for you, Did you say, wow that's interesting, tell me more, or did you say, well I really can't because of brain fog and tiredness and it's going to cost me too much, right?
	So the first thing that I suggested that we might want to look at, I mean you basically said it's not going to happen, right?
	And you even said to some degree It's beyond free will, because it's a health issue, it's a physical... I assume you've been tested, is that right?
	You've been tested for various health ailments, and they've been ruled out?
	I have tried to go to the doctor, and I have even been at a psychiatrist, I think.
	He gave me some kind of antidepressants, and I went also through some psychotherapies and personal development courses, yeah.
	No, that's not what I asked.
	What I asked was, have you, you know, I mean, have you had blood tests?
	Have you had a basic physical or maybe a more advanced physical to find out if there's a physical route to your tiredness or your brain fog?
	I have done some blood tests, but I have done this all on my own.
	I haven't consulted a doctor about this.
	Okay, so, I'm not sure, like, philosophy can't help you with physical ailments, right?
	Yeah, I think it cannot, yeah.
	Okay, so, if you tell me that there's a physiological reason that you're ill, that your health is deteriorating, then I'm not sure how I can help you, because if you say that maybe there's something wrong with your brain physically, like you have some ailment, then philosophy can't really help you, right?
	Yes, I understand that part, but... So you call up a philosopher saying, I need some help, and the first thing I suggest you say is, basically impossible because of my health.
	Do you see how you're transferring the frustration?
	Now, if you have a health issue...
	that is causing you a lack of energy or brain fog, then talking to a philosopher is worse than a waste of time, right?
	Because you should be talking to a doctor and getting a full battery of tests, I assume.
	I don't trust these doctors.
	I have already been at doctors and they don't know how to help me with this.
	Okay, so then, if you have underlying tiredness and brain fog, but you tell me it's a health issue, then I can't help you from a philosophy standpoint.
	If you say, well, maybe I'm just depressed and, you know, maybe I've got some problems with my life that are sapping my energy, okay, well then, maybe philosophy can help you.
	But when I said anger might be helpful, you said, my health is deteriorating, I have brain fog and chronic tiredness, Which signals to me that there could be an underlying physical issue which I can't help you with.
	I'm not trying to be critical, I'm just telling you my experience.
	Yes, I was hoping that you would maybe inspire me somehow.
	Well, the very first suggestion that I gave to you, you said is impossible because of my health.
	Right, let's take an extreme example.
	Let's say you said you go to a You phone up somebody who's a movement expert, like a physical trainer, right?
	And you say, gee, I'm tired, I have no energy, and then he says, well, you should go for a walk, and then you say, no, I can't, I'm paralyzed from the waist down and I'm in a wheelchair, right?
	Then going for a walk would be off the table, I assume, because it's physically impossible, right?
	So if I say, anger might be helpful, and you say, I have health issues that make that impossible, Right?
	Which is what I got from what you were saying, because you didn't say, well, you know, I have, you know, you said it's impossible for me, or mostly impossible, because it will cost me too much.
	I have these health issues.
	I have deteriorating health.
	Right?
	And by deteriorating health, I assumed that you meant physical health, which philosophy can't do anything about.
	I'm not sure if I said impossible.
	I meant it would be possible, but very difficult.
	Well, but if it is a physical issue, like if you have some illness, then it would be foolish and cruel for me to suggest that philosophy could solve anything to do with that, right?
	So you gave me your physical health, your physical deterioration, which I can't help with.
	Okay, what now then?
	Well, I mean, that's the point, right?
	So you feel paralyzed in your life, and then the way that you start off this conversation is to paralyze the conversation.
	You see, your paralysis is kind of like a demon that's trying to spread to me.
	Do you see what I'm saying?
	And I don't mean this in any critical way.
	You're not being mean.
	I'm just saying that that's my experience of the conversation.
	Okay.
	I'm slowly starting to understand what you mean.
	Because if the first solution that I come up with is impossible, and you know, you know, I'm going to talk about your childhood, I'm going to express outrage at you having been abused, and I'm going to try and connect with your emotions about that, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, that's, that's, because that's not bearing false witness.
	You were horribly abused, and the abuse from your father spilled out into every other area of your life, right, which is why you would be abused at school, and so on.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	If you can't get upset about decades of abuse, or a decade plus of... I mean, there's the violent abuse, the physical assaults, there is the verbal abuse, the verbal destruction, or attempted destruction of your personality, right?
	So, if it's not possible for you to feel anything about that, then I don't know what can be done, because What's missing, I think, is the presence of emotion.
	At least in this conversation.
	Does that make any sense?
	Yes, yes, it makes sense.
	But can we somehow try to make this emotion come, or come up front, or how should I say?
	Well, I need, so that's why I asked if you'd seen a doctor, right?
	So you've seen a doctor, you've had some tests, and they can't find anything, is that right?
	More or less?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	So, Can we make the emotion come?
	Well, first of all, we have to figure out why the emotion is not there, right?
	Why do you think the emotion is not there?
	Huh.
	It would hurt, I suppose, yeah.
	And that's it for this video.
	Thanks for watching.
	I mean, that's... I'm gonna have to assume you're smarter than that, and I know that you are.
	Right?
	Why isn't something there?
	Because of an unspecified negative.
	It's like, well, yeah, okay, right?
	Like, it's like saying, well, why do you think the woman didn't want to go out with you?
	It's like, well, she just didn't want to go on a date with me.
	It's like, yeah, I get that, but why?
	Right?
	So, yes, there is some hurt or some negative, but...
	I mean, we do things that are hurt, and we go to the dentist, we exercise, we change our diet, we do things that are hurtful and negative all the time.
	That's not enough of an answer.
	So why is the emotion not present?
	I'm not sure what you're aiming for here now.
	I'm very intrigued now by this.
	I'm asking you why you think you can't feel outrage or anger or upset at your abuse as a child.
	I don't know.
	Yes, you do.
	Yeah.
	Again, I mean, we can go through this dance if you want, but you've heard enough of these call-in shows that if you go passive on me, right, and the fact that you went passive is your mother, right, this is your mother intervening to protect your father, blah blah blah, right, so you do know.
	Of course you know.
	Otherwise you're saying to me, Steph, you who have been talking to me for ten minutes
	should give me an answer that I can't possibly have gotten over thirty-five years.
	.
	But that's not possible, right?
	It'd be like if you grew up speaking a language and you said to me, Steph, I need you to speak to me in my native language, if you could just learn it over the last 10 minutes, that would be excellent.
	But I can't.
	Yeah, I understand this, but I really don't I mean, if I say I don't know the answer... Okay, well, let's try it this way.
	Let's try it this way.
	So, when you don't feel an emotion, that would be... I mean, do you agree that it would be reasonable to be angry about having been abused as a child?
	Yes, yes, of course.
	Okay, so we're not asking you to fall in love with the shit sandwich here, like we're asking for something sort of reasonable, right?
	Okay, so if it'd be reasonable to be angry at having been abused as a child, then would you also agree that it would serve your interests in the long run to be angry about having been abused?
	Yes, it would.
	Okay, so if it's normal, natural, healthy, reasonable, and would serve your interests, then the only reason it wouldn't be happening is it harms somebody else's interests.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, but whose?
	I mean, is it my mother or...?
	Well, see, if you're just gonna go rubberbones on me, again, I don't know how we can have a conversation.
	Because you're not engaging in the conversation, you're just throwing out answers designed to frustrate me.
	And look, if you want to frustrate me and not make any progress, that's just not engaging or enjoyable for me.
	That's not a valuable thing for me, because I don't want to reinforce the passivity, right?
	So if you're going to be like, I don't know, my mother, that's not participating in the conversation, right?
	So if you're going to make at least a commitment to try and think actively in the conversation, then we can have the conversation.
	Otherwise, probably not, right?
	Because I'm not going to do all the work you called me wanting to help and save your life.
	Your life is in a big mess, right?
	Yes.
	So, why am I doing all the work?
	It's your life.
	It's kind of an insult to the conversation for you to say, oh, I don't know, my mother?
	Maybe?
	Right?
	I'm not trying to corner you here, I'm trying to help you, but, I mean, you've got to lift a finger here, right?
	Who does it harm for you to get angry about being abused?
	whose interest does it impact negatively?
	I'm sorry, I don't know.
	Bye.
	You don't know?
	I mean, come on bro, you already told me this!
	How could you claim to not know?
	You already told me.
	You said you lived in continual fear of who?
	Who did you already tell me you live in continual fear with?
	My father.
	Your father!
	Right.
	So if you get angry about your father abusing you, whose interests does that harm?
	I don't know. I don't know.
	why do I not have a response to this?
	I don't know either, but I'm willing to wait.
	I mean, I'm not sure.
	Are we brain fogging here?
	I don't know because I can't see you.
	I don't know if you're playing a video game or practicing juggling or staring vacantly out the window.
	I have no idea, right?
	I'm trying to concentrate and think what is the answer here.
	I'm not distracted by... You already told me, right?
	You heard that part, right?
	It serves your interest to be angry at your father.
	Does it serve your father's interest for you to be angry at him?
	No.
	Okay, so...
	You getting angry hurts whose interests?
	My parents.
	Okay.
	See?
	That wasn't so bad, was it?
	Yeah.
	Now why... I mean, now that you say it, it's obviously blindingly obvious, why do you think that was... tough?
	Oh, so tough.
	But I mean, I already know this, but... No!
	Stop it.
	No, stop manipulating me.
	I won't have it.
	Don't bullshit me, bro.
	Because when I asked you whose interests were harmed by you getting angry, you claimed not to know, right?
	Do you remember this?
	You said, I don't know.
	There were long pauses.
	I don't know.
	Right?
	Do you remember that?
	Yeah.
	And then I say, look, we've got someone.
	You say, but I already knew this.
	So if you're just going to twist and turn and just make up bullshit in the moment, we can't have a convo, bro.
	Like, I'm just, I'm serious about that.
	I really want to help.
	I really do.
	But not with this nonsense, right?
	So if I ask you a question and you, you know, for 10 minutes say you don't know, and then I point out that you got there and you say, but I already knew that.
	You understand how that's really annoying?
	Yes, I can understand this, but for me, it feels like it should be something more specific.
	You know?
	I don't know what that means.
	You claimed you didn't know.
	Something.
	Right?
	What's 2 and 2 make?
	I don't know.
	What does 2 and 2 make?
	I don't know.
	What does 2 and 2 make?
	I don't know.
	Yes, you do.
	What does 2 and 2 make?
	Oh, 4.
	Oh, but I already knew that!
	Right?
	Do you understand?
	That's just manipulative as hell.
	And look, I have sympathy for what happened to you as a child.
	I really do.
	Really do.
	More than I could express.
	Massive sympathies for what happened to you as a child.
	But we can't have a chat like this, where you claim to not know something for ten minutes, and then when I point it out, you say, but I already knew that.
	See, what you're trying to do now is you're trying to shield your father, first with ignorance, right?
	Saying, I don't know, and then when it's pointed out, say, well, I already knew that, so we don't have to talk about it anymore.
	This is just another move to shield your father, right?
	And your mother, of course, but your father primarily.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay, so.
	You said that, and when I say you said, I'm not trying to catch you out, I just want to make sure I understand.
	You said that your mother's story was that your father was jealous of you.
	Yes.
	Because your mother loved you so much.
	Yes.
	Is it your perception that your mother loved you so much?
	No, not really.
	No.
	I remember I had some nice moments with my mother, and I remember when I was very young, I loved her very much, but I don't feel like she really loved me all that much.
	I mean, I didn't feel like she hates me, but she did not love me all that much.
	Why do you think that?
	She was somehow very distant.
	I couldn't connect to her.
	She was somehow... Interesting, because, you know, I have a tough time connecting with you too, but I understand.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	When I was, like, observing her, she always felt for me like she's ashamed of herself.
	And she never was present, you know, like she doesn't exist.
	Right.
	Well, she should be ashamed of herself, of course.
	I mean, you know why, right?
	Because she did not protect me?
	Well, it's not a failure to protect you.
	I didn't protect you either.
	It's choosing to date a man.
	get engaged to a man, marry a man, and give a man two children who's unspeakably violent towards his son.
	And I assume verbally violent or aggressive towards his daughter, right?
	And then, I mean, are your parents still together?
	So, as I was, as we were growing up, my father somehow, we were, I was growing up in two places.
	There was this birth house of my father and there is another house which He made for kind of to be a family house about 10 kilometers away.
	And then we grew up on both of these places, me and my sister.
	And as we were growing up, my father was less and less with us.
	He was more there at that place where he was born and where he grew up.
	And yeah, my mother and father never kind of showed affection to each other.
	They I had always a feeling that they don't love each other.
	So As we were growing up, he was more and more distant.
	Okay.
	Do you remember my question?
	Um, no, I'm sorry.
	Are they still together?
	Uh, okay.
	They are still married.
	They are not divorced, no.
	Okay, got it.
	Got it.
	Now, have you spent much time around kids as an adult?
	A few years ago I was living in a community in Austria and there was a lot of children there.
	I played really a lot with them, yes.
	Okay.
	Can you imagine beating one of those children?
	No.
	No.
	Okay.
	If you saw someone beating one of those children in Austria, if you saw someone beating those children, how would you feel?
	Terrible.
	I sometimes, not here, I'm living now, but when I was living still in... Sorry, if you could just stay off the places, that would be helpful, but go ahead.
	Okay, I'm sorry.
	When I would see sometimes a child being beaten, then I would feel very bad about this.
	Yes.
	What do you mean by bad?
	Can you break that feeling out a bit more?
	I feel bad when I stub my toe, but that's not the same as moral outrage.
	I would feel hurt by this, what a parent would do.
	I would feel for the child.
	I would feel how this is wrong.
	And how would you feel towards the parent?
	Angry.
	Ah, you see?
	It's not that hard.
	Yeah.
	You just have to pretend that you're watching yourself.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	You just have to have the same level of empathy for yourself that you would have for a stranger.
	Yes.
	So you can feel angry at child abuse, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so that's not broken.
	And you?
	But, you can't value yourself to the point where you're worth defending.
	Because anger is a defense, right?
	Yes, yes.
	So, you have internalized that you don't matter, and you're not worth defending, and therefore anger is what?
	What is anger?
	What would anger be if you're not worth defending?
	Why would that block?
	I don't know the answer to this, I'm just trying to mull it out loud.
	Can you repeat the question, sorry?
	Well, if someone is not worth defending, then getting angry on behalf of that person would be almost like an injustice.
	So let me sort of, I'm just playing this out in my head.
	So let's say that you're married, you have beautiful children.
	and you hire a babysitter you come home and you find out that the babysitter has been beating your children with a belt or an electrical cable and your children are screaming and crying and your wife strides forward grabs the babysitter by the collar and starts shaking her in anger and you jump in to defend the babysitter and you're angry at your wife For being aggressive with the babysitter who spent most of the evening beating your children black and blue.
	So, if you had that situation where you were outraged and angry at your wife and defending the babysitter, that would be a strange kind of injustice, wouldn't it?
	So, as you are saying this, I wouldn't do that.
	I know, it's a theoretical.
	I know you wouldn't.
	It's a theoretical.
	But if you, or if someone, if someone did this, right?
	That the babysitter's been beating the children black and blue all night, the parents come home, the wife grabs the babysitter and starts shaking and yelling at her, and the husband leaps in to protect the babysitter, that would be strange, right?
	That would be totally wound up, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, the babysitter is not worth defending, right?
	And therefore anger At anybody who was attacking the babysitter would be a strange kind of warped injustice, right?
	Yeah.
	So if you are not worth defending, then your anger would be a strange kind of injustice.
	Let me take another example.
	There are some people who believe that if you're angry that, I don't know, that you should do these silly things like, you know, punch pillows or something like that, right?
	Now, the pillow is just an inanimate object that you're supposed to take your anger out on, right?
	It's a punching pillow, right?
	Yes.
	Now, if someone were to jump between the angry person punching the pillow and the pillow and say, how dare you?
	That pillow has feelings.
	That pillow didn't do anything to you.
	Why would you punch this poor innocent pillow?
	That would be kind of crazy, right?
	Yes.
	Because the pillow is an inanimate object that the angry person is taking out his temper on and to defend the pillow would be kind of crazy, right?
	Yes.
	So you would be the pillow in that analogy.
	Your father is angry, he took his anger out upon you and defending you would be like defending a pillow or an abusive babysitter.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, but I'm having trouble staying present.
	I see where you're going, but I have a bit of a brain fog.
	Well, that's just your parents moving in, because they don't want you to know this stuff.
	Right?
	Because you are... Do you feel excluded from humanity as a whole?
	Do you feel like a separate person?
	Yes.
	Right.
	And do you know why?
	The reason is that you would get angry at any parent or any adult who treated a child even once the way you were treated five hundred to a thousand times, which means you're in a separate universe.
	You're in an opposite moral universe.
	You'd be outraged if someone treated a child as your father treated you.
	But you're not outraged at how your father treated you.
	So you would have far more moral empathy, infinitely more moral empathy and outrage to a stranger than to your own holy soul, so to speak.
	So you have excluded yourself from the morals of mankind.
	That all children need to be protected and all who beat children are outrageous and immoral monsters.
	Except you're dead.
	So you're somehow different from everybody else?
	Like the moral rules reverse around you?
	Like... You're like somebody who's like confidently stepping off a bridge saying, oh no, I can... I mean, everybody else falls to their death, but I can walk on air.
	I'm immune.
	I'm different.
	Laws of physics don't apply to me.
	Why on earth wouldn't the laws of morality apply to you?
	They're universal, right?
	And I can also tell you that not feeling angry at your father was probably very wise when
	you were a child.
	you Do you know why?
	Because he could have killed me?
	Or you might have killed him.
	Yes.
	No, I'm not kidding.
	Yeah, no.
	But what do you mean?
	I mean, he's got to sleep sometime, right?
	I actually was thinking about this.
	Not actually when he was... I know!
	But I had some, like, there was a few times when it came to my head, what would happen if I would just kill my father?
	And what would happen?
	Like, you know, the world will be a better place.
	And how old were you when you thought of that?
	Somewhere in between.
	Close to, probably about 10.
	Okay.
	Now, do you know how healthy that is?
	I think it's healthy, yes, because it's anger and it's a defense mechanism.
	Are you glad you didn't do it?
	I assume you're glad you didn't kill your father.
	Yeah.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, your anger would have led you to be violent back, right?
	Now, if you're going to, you know, there's an old thing that says, if you take aim at the king, you better not miss.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So, if you were to simply fight back against your father at the age of 10, he would be bigger and stronger, and the police would believe him, not you, and right?
	So, things would go very badly for you, right?
	Yes.
	So, if you really, and of course, appealing to your mother wouldn't do any good.
	And so, if you wanted to stop the abuse, right?
	Then, you know, massive violence would be... I mean, it would seem to me the only... I'm not recommending it, of course, right?
	But it would seem to me to be the only logical solution.
	You either run away, or you disable him in some manner.
	Doesn't have to be killing him, but you would disable him in some manner.
	And that would have been very bad, right?
	Yes, that would not be good.
	I mean, even if we bypass the ethics, I mean, it would leave you with some, I mean, real trauma, right?
	You mean if I would harm... Yeah, if you had, I don't know, really harmed him to the point where he couldn't harm you back, for whatever that would mean, I mean, that would be pretty, pretty appalling, and then, I mean, you would be in the newspapers as that kid, and All of society, most of society, would have railed against you, right?
	Like, women can kill abusive husbands and get off scot-free.
	In fact, they'll be praised at times, right?
	Okay.
	So, I'm very glad you didn't.
	It's not a wise thing to do.
	But I totally understand the impulse.
	So, the reason you disabled your anger was so that you wouldn't use significant violence in your environment, I assume, if you were thinking about these sort of murderous thoughts at the age of 10.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	Now, the problem is your unconscious has not yet been informed that you're safe.
	Well, I guess, are you safe?
	Are you safe in this world at the moment?
	I mean, certainly compared to when you were a kid.
	So I don't feel myself safe in this world, and that's, I think, exactly what is the problem, or one of them.
	I don't feel myself.
	So what is your danger profile now?
	There are these stupid idiots walking everywhere, and I cannot find a safe place.
	That's how it feels for me.
	It's like everywhere.
	Yeah, that's very abstract.
	What do you mean, like, in your daily life?
	Well, at work, I'm doing dishwashing, and it doesn't require any kind of education, so there is all sorts of old, ill, also very traumatized people come there, and I get really frustrated when I just see this.
	but what is the danger?
	So the danger is that I would want to use violence on them.
	No, no, what is the danger towards you?
	Because you were assaulted by your father five hundred to a thousand times, plus the verbal abuse, plus the complicity and enablement of your mother.
	So you were in direct and extreme danger as a child, right?
	Of those 500 to 1000 assaults upon you as a child, any one of them could have killed you.
	Any one of them could have permanently disabled or disfigured you.
	Any one of them could have put out an eye.
	Like violence is an extremely uncertain thing.
	Right?
	I mean, you can read stories all the time of people that get into some stupid bar fight, right?
	And the guy, they swing at a guy, they miss, he ducks back, slips on beer, hits his head on the side of the bar, and dies.
	So, for a child to be assaulted by a man two or four or six times his size, five hundred to a thousand times, the child has to be enormously skilled at avoiding injury in order not to get maimed or killed.
	Did you see what I mean?
	Mm-hmm.
	No, I am very skilled at avoiding stuff.
	Well, no, not really.
	Sorry to be annoying.
	When you were a kid, you were, but right now you're enmeshed in this trash planet, right?
	You're enmeshed in this bad world.
	So you're not very good at avoiding it now, right?
	I was thinking about, like, ducking down when the punch is coming.
	Yeah, yeah, no, of course.
	Well, you've had a tragic amount of experience with that, right?
	And I mean, I remember this, as I've mentioned on the show before, I remember this moment very clearly.
	When I was three or four years old and I was trying to run away from home and my mother lifted me bodily and beat my head against a metal door.
	Oh my goodness.
	And I went limp.
	I went completely limp because I was fully aware that if I tried to resist, she could kill me, or she could give me brain damage, or whatever, right?
	So I went limp to signal absolute submission, and that was an instinct to survive, right?
	I mean, the way that she was treating me was outrageous and evil to the core, but I could not get angry at it in the moment because I had to survive, right?
	Now, you have to submit when you're in a situation of Grievous bodily harm or murder.
	And I'm not saying that your father wanted to murder you, but you beat a child five hundred to a thousand times, it only takes one slip up on the part of that child to fall down through the stairs, to hit the head on the corner of a table, to whatever, right?
	To move in the wrong way and get a fist to the eyeball or something like that, right?
	So you were in a situation of Death and or grievous bodily harm every time there was an assault.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	And you survived by not getting angry.
	That not getting angry was your survival mechanism, right?
	Yes, I would say freeze.
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	For sure.
	Yeah.
	I mean, everybody talks about fight or flight.
	It's not possible for children.
	What do we have as children?
	You had exactly the right word.
	There's fight, flight.
	For children, it's freeze.
	Yes, yes.
	Right?
	So, for you to not be angry signals that you are in a situation of grave danger.
	Which is why you can get angry at a child being beaten by another adult, because you're not in that situation of danger.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, yes.
	Okay.
	So, if you don't allow yourself to get angry, or you don't accept that anger is healthy, you are constantly signaling to your unconscious that you're still a child being hunted by your father, that you have not left the family household, and that you are still in danger.
	of grievous bodily harm, maiming, or death.
	So you not allowing yourself to get angry means that your childhood is not
	past, it's not over.
	You are of course my friend as absolutely worthy of protection as every other child in the known
	universe.
	It is Monstrous, outrageous, immoral and enraging at how you were
	treated by your father.
	But you can't feel safe if you never allow yourself to get angry.
	because never allowing yourself to get angry is what you do when you're in a
	situation of overwhelming and dangerous violence.
	And of course the bullies in your childhood knew based upon their own
	screwed up histories and natures and choices, they knew that you had zero access to anger.
	that you could be pushed around Now, of course, in a better society you would be given sympathy for that, but in the society that is, for the most part, people will
	attack you if you've had your self-defense stripped from you.
	Right?
	So, if you had some illness that took away your immune system, the viruses wouldn't say, well, that's unfair.
	I mean, gosh, there's not even a fight here.
	The virus would be like, woohoo!
	We're in, right?
	We're in.
	We can breathe.
	No one's going to oppose us.
	And because your immune system was down, the anger that is your immune system was down, people just attacked you, right?
	Like a lion doesn't want to hunt an adult male zebra, it would much rather find a wounded foal that it could eat easily, right?
	And sadly, in this world, being marked as prey brings out all the predators in the known universe.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, it makes perfect sense, yeah.
	And what do you think about what I'm saying?
	I know this dynamic, and I was thinking this by myself even before, when I also… I think you said… you were talking about this in some other videos of yours, so I know what you are talking about, yeah?
	It's a prey-predator dynamic.
	Right.
	And you're still in that.
	Yeah.
	So why?
	Because you won't let yourself get angry.
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	What's your relationship with your parents like now?
	My father, I haven't seen him since 2012.
	I have gotten, I have pushed him back, how to say.
	I did get angry and when I found work in 2012 and one month after that there was one, let's say, incident where I got into a physical and a verbal fight with him.
	And he said I need to go away from the house.
	I cannot live there anymore.
	And it was good for me because I have even planned it like this to go and live by myself.
	And with my mother, just in the last two years, I have established, re-established the contact.
	Sometimes we write on WhatsApp.
	I was trying to makes some more contact with her.
	Sorry, when you stopped seeing your father in 2012 because of the fight, did you also stop seeing your mother at that time as well?
	No, because I was working in the factory, in the same factory where my mother was working, so I had to see her.
	What are you talking about?
	You can't get another job?
	What do you mean you have to see her?
	I mean, you're not a serf, you're not owned by the factory, right?
	So she was first working there in this factory, and then she was asking the boss if he has another place, so I started to work there also, so we had to see each other just... No, you don't understand what I'm saying, sorry.
	I'm probably being unclear.
	You could have quit the job.
	Yes, I'm aware of that, but it would be... Okay, so don't tell me it's because of the job, because you could have quit the job, right?
	Yeah, yeah, I could have quit.
	I just wanted to be clear on that, that it was a choice.
	Okay, so then you continued to see your mother and what has happened over the... you said you've re-established contact over the last two years.
	What has happened with your mother over the last 10 years?
	Or 12?
	So for about five years I was working in this factory and then I quit and I went traveling and since then it was a few years that I didn't talk to her at all.
	And lately I was getting so, so depressed, and I was having a lot of suicidal thoughts, so I had really, really, like, nobody.
	So, okay, in my head it was, okay, I guess I go and send a message to my mother, and that's how it was.
	And when you didn't speak to her for a couple of years, was that because of a conflict, or was that, like, you just didn't talk to her?
	She didn't contact you?
	I'm not sure what that means.
	I wanted to shove out of my life all the people from my past in order to make space for the future, so to speak.
	But I did not find something good for myself, if I can say it that way.
	So I kind of reverted, I kind of tasted the past, if that would be an expression, in order to have something in my life.
	You know, although I don't like my mother, I have sent her a message because I wanted to have some kind of a contact with somebody.
	I don't know if that makes sense.
	No, I got it.
	I got it.
	I got it.
	And what about your dating life?
	So I had three girlfriends in my life.
	I had one when I was about 21.
	I think we were together for three years.
	I had one when I was 28, I think, that lasted eight months, and the last one was, I think, two years ago, if I'm not mistaken, and that lasted maybe two months, I'm not sure, three, four.
	And sorry, how long ago was that?
	About, I would say two years ago, I'm not sure now exactly.
	And what happens in these relationships that they don't last?
	So the first girlfriend, I broke up with her because it was somehow very annoying for me.
	I felt I could not progress in my life and she did not really understand me because she was about five and a half years younger than me.
	So I really felt like she did not understand my position.
	Sorry, this is when you were 21?
	Uh-huh, yes.
	Five and a half years younger?
	Yes.
	She was like 15, 16 years old?
	What are you talking about?
	I never went after women.
	It usually happens when the women... No, no, I don't care who pursued who.
	What are you doing dating a 15 year old when you're 21?
	Because I was kind of desperate.
	And did her family or your family have anything to say about this?
	But nobody said anything about, like, disproval.
	Nobody expressed disproval, if you mean this.
	I mean, I assume it's legal where you're from.
	You don't have to tell me, but I'm going to assume it's legal.
	It wouldn't be in some places.
	I'm not sure was it legal or not.
	Okay.
	And you had a sexual relationship, is that right?
	Yes, yes.
	And, I mean, what were your thoughts about dating a girl in her mid-teens?
	Well, she was beautiful and she was mature.
	Yeah, I don't know, I didn't think all that much.
	Well, I mean, what do you think of it now?
	I mean, my daughter's 15, I think about some 21-year-old guy creeping around her and be like, load up, right?
	I mean, so help me, like, what do you think of it now?
	I don't know if that sounds too strange, but I think it was okay.
	I mean, it was like a small surrounding.
	I'm from the small town and I went to school with her brother and I knew her parents.
	They thought good of me and I think it was fine.
	Do you think it was good for her?
	Yeah.
	Why is that?
	Why do you think it was good for her?
	I don't know.
	She really liked me because I was older and I suppose I'm good looking and... No, but I mean, you were seriously messed up, right?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I mean, you were the victim of massive traumatic child abuse that was, I assume, largely unprocessed at that point, right?
	So, if she liked you, it would be because she didn't understand your history, right?
	Yes, yes.
	Yeah, I was trying to explain this to her, but there was no connection, really.
	She did not understand Okay, and did she have at all a similar childhood?
	No, not at all.
	She grew up... I think she did not go through any kind of abuse.
	Okay, so did she like you a lot?
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, and I assume you took her virginity, right?
	Yeah.
	And then you broke up with her?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I'm sorry, I'm trying to figure out, like, how is that not something you think about in any negative way?
	Like, you took a virginity and then you dumped her.
	She was 15!
	Yes, well, that was not good.
	That, I can admit, that was not good to... No, I just asked you if there was anything negative.
	You said, no, it's good!
	I meant during our relationship, things were good, but then on the end, I broke up with her.
	Yeah, I'm not sure what to say.
	When things got a bit more serious, I kind of bailed out.
	What does that mean?
	I mean, I know what bailed out means, but what do you mean by more serious?
	So there was this, I think it's called prom in English.
	She was in high school, so she needed Somebody was supposed to go to the prom.
	Yeah.
	So and that was somehow very uncomfortable for me.
	And that was not the only reason for breaking up with her, but I'm not sure what to say.
	I got really fed up with her.
	Sorry, I thought you said she was mature and all of that.
	So what did you get fed up about?
	Well, this not understanding my... I was trying to explain my situation, how it was for me with my family and all of this, and she did not understand this.
	And how long into the relationship or how early in the relationship did you tell her about your childhood?
	I'm not sure if I remember this.
	Was it before you took her virginity?
	I'm really not sure.
	I don't know.
	I don't remember.
	But you knew that there were problems with her understanding your history, right?
	Yeah.
	And what else?
	So the fact that she didn't understand your history, what else caused you to break up?
	Did she ask you to come to her prom?
	I was also telling her that I'm planning to leave the And that I'm going to go to... I think at that time... Again, if you could stay off the places, I'd appreciate that.
	Okay, I'm sorry.
	Okay.
	And she said that she's not going to go, and this kind of created then more space in between us, distance.
	Right, okay.
	And did you know that you were going to be leaving the country when you first started dating her?
	No.
	No, I didn't.
	Really?
	Over the space of a couple of months, you went from not at all wanting to leave the country to wanting to leave the country?
	And that became certain?
	I told her this only later, in later of our relationship.
	Well, no, and it's not when you told her, it's when you decided.
	So, when you first started dating her, you were certain you were going to stay in the country, and then over the course of dating her, you were certain you were going to leave the country.
	And you understand that that would be very upsetting to her, right?
	Because she would assume, as she's asking you to prom and she gives you her virginity, that you have a future, right?
	That you're going to get married, that you're going to have children, that you're going to be a family, right?
	Is that what she wanted?
	Yeah.
	And when did she express that?
	Well, she did not express it so explicitly, but... That was science?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So she wanted to have you as a life partner?
	Yeah, I think.
	Sorry, I'm not sure if that was the end of the sentence or not.
	Yeah, it was.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Did you break her heart?
	Yes, I did.
	Yeah, that was very bad.
	Very bad for me.
	And why?
	I mean, you... Why?
	Because, and listen, we've all done things that we regret, so I'm not trying to, you know, lecture you from some high moral place here, but, I mean, you were very sensitive to being hurt by others as a child, which you should be, and I understand that, but, I mean, you did kind of break this girl's heart, right?
	Yes.
	And I don't get any sense that you feel anything about that.
	I could be wrong, of course.
	But I cannot do anything now about this.
	I mean, it was a Very bad thing, I understand that I have hurt her.
	Yeah.
	I'm sorry, I'm a little confused here.
	So, one of the things you started off this conversation with was telling me how bad your childhood was, right?
	Yes.
	Which was important to you, right?
	Yes.
	You also said that it was really annoying to you that the girl didn't understand how bad your childhood was, right?
	Mhm, yes.
	Okay, now you were 21, so your childhood was officially over, right?
	Mhm.
	So why would you want to talk about your childhood with your girlfriend, and why would you want to talk about your childhood with me, if you have the standard called, there's no point having any feelings or thoughts about anything if you can't change it?
	Can we change your childhood?
	So we cannot change childhood?
	I was hoping that she's going to have some kind of... I'm not sure if that's the correct word, but sympathy for my... No, no, no, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	When you had been wronged as a child, which you were, we talked about it with, you know, some passion and outrage and so on, right?
	Is that fair to say?
	Yes.
	But then when I point out that you harmed someone, suddenly it becomes, well, I can't change it.
	But we can't change your childhood either, so I don't understand why there are these opposing standards.
	That if you're wronged, we should talk about it, but if you wrong someone else, hey, you can't change it, what's the point?
	You can't change the past.
	These are opposing standards, right?
	Either the past is worth talking about, or it's not.
	Now, if the past is worth talking about, then we talk about how you've wronged others as well as been wronged yourself, which is the human condition, we've all done it, right?
	But if suddenly when I point out that you harmed someone, who was essentially a child, when I point out that you harmed someone, suddenly it's like, and I say, well, you don't really seem to feel anything about it, and you're like, well, but I can't change the past, what can I do about it now, right?
	Do you notice the discrepancy, like the opposite here?
	Yes, I don't feel anything.
	No, but do you notice the defense that kicked in here when you had done something wrong?
	You broke this girl's heart.
	and suddenly it's like, well, but I can't change it, why would I feel anything?
	I'm a bit lost, sorry. Okay.
	We talk about your childhood, and you talk about your childhood with great passion, and you're right to do so, in my opinion, because you were wronged, and it's very important to talk about the past.
	We can't change your childhood, but it's important to talk about, right?
	Does that make sense?
	Okay, so then I talk about how you broke this girl's heart, and suddenly, well, I can't change it, it's the past, I can't do anything.
	These are two standards that completely oppose each other.
	I'm not sure how to proceed now.
	You don't know how to proceed?
	I'm pointing out that these are opposing standards.
	Either you accept that, or you reject it, which you're free to do, and maybe I'm wrong.
	But what you do, rather than going rubberbones, which is your mother coming in, right, rather than going limp or passive, is you say, yes, these are double standards, that's quite hypocritical.
	Which is an acknowledgement of what I've said.
	Or, you can disagree with me, of course, right?
	right and tell me how I'm wrong.
	Or we don't have to talk at all, of course, right?
	I mean, there's always that option.
	You can just hang up, right?
	I'm sorry.
	Can you ask the question again?
	I'm sorry.
	I don't really know that there's any point, because if you have the option of fogging out like this, I don't know how we can have a conversation.
	I'm just pointing out that you want to talk about your past because it matters, but when I talk about something in the past where you hurt someone, suddenly you don't want to talk about it or you don't have any emotions about it because, eh, it's in the past, I can't change it, I can't do anything about it now, right?
	But that same principle would apply to your childhood.
	But we're talking about that, and you want to talk about that.
	So you're saying to the woman, the girl, I was upset at her because she didn't understand my childhood.
	Right?
	But what's the point?
	But then when I say, you understand you hurt her, you say, well...
	But it's, you know, it's the past, I can't do anything about it.
	Well, she can't do anything about your childhood, so why would she care about your childhood if she can't do anything about it?
	But you wanted her to care about your childhood even though she can't do anything about it.
	But when I point out you hurt her, you say, can't change the past, what can I do?
	So the past is both very important when you're the victim and something to be shrugged off if you have done something
	wrong, which we all have done.
	Yeah, I understand now what you mean.
	And that understanding, of course, leads to a dead end in a desert in your heart, right?
	Like, there's nothing there.
	It's just a dead end.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Well, I guess I'll try one last thing.
	How are things going with your mother at present?
	Um She's trying to
	I'm telling her sometimes, I'm writing her sometimes the bad things which she has done.
	And sometimes she writes me back.
	But it's, I don't know.
	What are you doing? I'm not sure where you are in this conversation. I have no idea.
	You're just like, I wrote her, she wrote me back, I don't know.
	I don't, like, weren't you kind of eager to talk to me?
	I don't know what you're doing.
	Yeah, no, I'm sorry, I'm getting really tired now.
	Okay, well, we don't, we don't, I mean, if you're tired, we don't have to have the conversation, of course, right?
	I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to put you out or exhaust you.
	I do notice that you got tired when you had to acknowledge that maybe you'd done something wrong with regards to this girl you were dating when you were 21.
	That's when you seem to get tired.
	Mm-hmm.
	Yes.
	But, I mean, do you want to end?
	I mean, again, nothing's keeping you in the conversation at all.
	Not in any negative way, but, you know, I mean, if you had some horrible jet lag and hadn't slept in two days, it wouldn't be a great time for a convert, right?
	Yeah, but it's never a good time for a conversation like this, so I want to do it.
	Well, but you have the excuse called, I'm tired, right?
	And maybe it's a legitimate excuse, I don't know, right?
	I don't know you.
	But if you have the, you know, if I say, how are things going with your mother, right?
	And you say, well, I write to her, she writes me back, I don't know.
	I mean, you understand that there's nothing I can work with in that lack of content or connection.
	So sometimes she expressed a desire to help me lately, and I told her that she cannot help me now anyhow.
	So sometimes it happens that I just ignore her messages and she keeps sending.
	Wait, sorry, I'm confused.
	So you have told her about the harm that she and your father did to you when you were a child, is that right?
	Yes, yes.
	And then she has expressed a desire to help you, right?
	Yeah.
	And then you tell her you can't help me and you block her.
	Yes, so every time we speak there is always some kind of, I'm not sure how to call this, but I don't get help from her, it's just... Well, I mean, okay, but I have some sympathy for that, because you're not getting help from me either, and I'm pretty good at this!
	So, why would you want to tell your mother about the past, and then tell her that there's nothing she can do to help you?
	Right?
	You understand that that's putting her in an impossible situation, right?
	I mean, what would your mother do that would help you?
	you? What could your mother do that would help you?
	She could become some sort of a...
	Something better than what she is.
	And then I could, uh, have some kind of a contact with her, but like this, sorry, what, which, what, what could she do?
	That would be an improvement.
	I'm not saying that there isn't, I'm, I'm just curious for you, what would she could go and learn English, you know, whatever to do something, uh, you know, sorry.
	So there's a language barrier.
	Is that right?
	No, no, no.
	Like this would be her, it would show.
	Like the proactiveness, that she's doing something, that she wants to get better at... You know, that she's not that passive person like she was before.
	Oh no, sorry!
	Oh my god!
	So you want her to help you with your childhood, right?
	Or your life?
	So I would like... Sorry, sorry!
	I just need to know, is that true?
	Like, you're saying that you want her to help you with your childhood and your life, is that right?
	Yes, but not in that kind of way.
	I just don't need an essay. I just need to know what's going on in the convo.
	So you want her to help you and I say, and she says she's not helping you and I say what would help you?
	And you say she could learn English. And I say is there a language barrier? She said no.
	So this is, I don't know what that has to do with your childhood or your life if she learns English.
	So that would show that she is progressing in life and then I could connect to her.
	But as long as she is dead... But you're not progressing in life!
	I don't understand how would you be able to connect with your mother if she was progressing in life, given that you're not?
	But I feel that I'm already way ahead of her.
	And it felt like this... What are you talking about?
	You're a 35-year-old dishwasher!
	When she was 35, wasn't she married and have a family?
	I'm not saying it was a good family, of course!
	And I'm glad that you don't... that you're not doing what she's doing, of course!
	But... I'm... I'm... I'm trying to figure out where this superiority comes from.
	I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't see it.
	I find her really stupid, and I'm... I'm a bit...
	I'm ashamed to say this, but I always thought my mother was a stupid person.
	So the guy with mental fog, who keeps saying, I don't know, to obvious things, is calling his mother, what, mentally challenged?
	Uneducated, I would say, yeah.
	Okay.
	And what has your education done for you?
	Um...
	Okay, let me ask you this.
	Has your mother acknowledged and apologized for her role in the severe child abuse that you experienced?
	Yes, she has, yeah.
	And has she apologized and worked hard to make amends?
	She is working hard, but I feel like it's not enough.
	I feel like I'm not doing enough.
	Do you remember the question?
	Did she apologize and work enough to make amends?
	Yeah, restitution.
	And has she done that?
	Well, I have a feeling that she didn't That she needs to do something more.
	Okay, let me ask this one at a time.
	Has she genuinely apologized?
	Apologized in a way that you accept as a genuine apology?
	So that what I would accept as an apology she didn't do.
	She's always finding some kind of... She's saying these apologies in a way They don't seem honest and true when she says them.
	Okay, so she hasn't apologized and therefore assumed that she hasn't made significant restitution.
	Yeah, I don't believe her with what, when she says, when she makes an apology.
	Okay.
	And so where do things stand now with your mom?
	that's the problem. Well, she's. I don't I don't know. It's the same. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
	And has she provided any help that has been of use to you?
	Yeah, I could say that when I was feeling difficult and hard, then she was there for me.
	Yeah.
	OK, so she helped you when you were really down, right?
	Yeah.
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay.
	And do you have any dating prospects or anything going on like that at the moment?
	No, not now.
	And what do you want out of your life, let's say, over the next 10 years?
	You look at yourself at 45, what do you want to have achieved?
	So, I would like to have my own business.
	So, I'm here where I'm working.
	I can, for my standards, I have a lot of money now, and I am searching how to invest this into something, you know, and that would give me some feeling of, how to say, to give me a peace of mind, and then I could search for a woman to get married with.
	So, sorry, and how long would you wait, certainly, for a woman to marry?
	Well, it depends on the state of things.
	Not really.
	I'm sure.
	Well, you're 35.
	Yeah.
	When would you like to be married?
	As soon as possible, because time... No, no, but you're British, right?
	Yeah.
	So, you said that you wanted to start a business and Austin's getting married, right?
	Yeah.
	So, are you currently working, uh, like, looking for investors and proposals and businesses?
	I'm trying to explore something called Free Cities Foundation.
	Uh, this is, like, the alternative, and, uh, they offer some on this, and, uh, I'm really having a problem getting to it about this, but I'm pushing myself into that direction.
	It's not looking good.
	And is that something you would invest in and make money from?
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	And when do you plan on making the investment?
	When I feel relatively safe that something is going to work out.
	No, I understand that.
	Of course.
	Right.
	Of course you're not going to invest until you feel comfortable.
	Let me ask you a different way.
	When do you expect to feel comfortable making the investment?
	I don't know.
	I don't have an answer.
	Plan, really.
	Other than just read a little here and there, right?
	I think you're right, yeah.
	And why do you think you don't have a plan?
	I mean, you're 35, so you're aging out of the marriage market, right?
	You know that, right?
	I mean, everyone thinks that only women have the wall, but you do too, right?
	Yeah.
	Because if you wait until you're 40, and you want a couple of kids, you're going to have to marry a woman substantially younger, right?
	Yeah.
	And that's going to be tricky.
	Especially because you really don't have much experience in relationships, and you have no experience in successful relationships, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, you're going to want a top-tier woman, and if you want a great job, and you've been an adult for, I don't know, 18 years, or 17 years, and you've never had an experience with a successful job, that'd be tough to get hired, right?
	Yes, yes.
	So why do you think you don't have plans?
	I think I don't. So that's also. I'm not getting now because I feel I don't. There's no value in me.
	That I would a woman, you know, in me I have nothing.
	Well, but you have control over your investment life, right?
	Yeah.
	So saying, I don't want to date because I don't have anything that would appeal to a woman... Well, one of the things I assume would appeal to a woman is you being a successful investor, right?
	That would appeal to women, yes.
	Okay, so I'm asking you why you don't have any plans and you say, well, you switch topics to dating.
	When I was talking about why don't you have any plans as an investor, why don't you say, okay, I've got three months to figure out what I'm going to invest in.
	I'm going to work back from that and make it happen.
	I mean, that's how things happen in life, right?
	They don't just happen because things come along, right?
	I mean, you have to make things happen, right?
	You have to have a goal and a plan, right?
	I mean, when I was starting this show, I had a goal, I had a plan and I spent You know, 80% of my time promoting and marketing and not recording, right?
	Because I had to make people aware of what it is that I was doing, right?
	So, with regards to your life as a whole, I assume that, I mean, this is what a life looks like without a plan, right?
	Is that fair to say?
	Okay, so did your parents, I mean not great parents obviously, but did they have plans?
	Did your father have plans and execute on them or anything like that?
	So my father worked internationally and when he was 41 then he got married to my mother.
	They are 11 years apart in age.
	I don't... I'm not sure because I did not really speak all that much with him, but... But he had a successful career, right?
	He traveled internationally?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So he obviously planned and executed some things, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	On a scale of 0 to 10 what do you think you're worth at present?
	Pen.
	Five.
	Okay, so you're in the middle of what people are worth?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you're saying half of people would be worth less and half of people would be worth more, is that right?
	Uh-huh.
	And what is it that gets you to the five and what is it that keeps you from a ten?
	Well this, so I don't know if I can say that way, but the ability to socialize.
	I don't know if that makes sense.
	So if I could make social connections, then that would propel me way up above five.
	All right.
	And what is it that gets you to the five?
	You mean from zero to five?
	Yeah.
	I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I just want to know what you're putting there.
	I speak different languages.
	I would say I can be an interesting person to talk to.
	I'm quite good-looking, I would say.
	Okay, in the dating market, I mean, these aren't things you've earned, right?
	You speak a couple of languages because you were raised in a couple of different cultures, right?
	For some languages, like for Spanish and for Russian, I have made some, yeah, but maybe, yeah, we can... Okay, so, I mean, that's largely accidental.
	Your looks are largely accidental.
	I mean, we don't earn our good looks, right?
	I mean, we can maintain them by exercise or whatever, but we don't earn them, right?
	Okay.
	So, what that you've earned, how would you rate the effort that you put into and the things that you've earned?
	From 1 to 10.
	You mean you ask which things did I earn?
	Well, yeah.
	So, if a woman says, well, I have value because I have big boobs, well, you don't earn big boobs, right?
	I mean, you're just born with them or whatever, right?
	Or if, yeah, I'm really pretty or whatever, right?
	Okay, well, that's just kind of accidental.
	That's not something that is innate to, that doesn't, that's an accidental thing you've inherited, right?
	So in terms of the things that you've earned, that you, because you can't take pride in your looks, right?
	You can't take pride if you happen to know a bunch of different languages because you were raised in a bunch of different countries.
	So in terms of the things, you take pride in the things that you've earned, right?
	Like I can't take any pride in having blue eyes, maybe I can take some pride in the work I've done in philosophy, so what, in terms of the things you've earned?
	So I did actually made a lot of effort to learn German, but I'm also quite good with learning languages, so I'm not sure.
	I think I would say that that's a big achievement.
	Why is it a value?
	What is it a value that you know German?
	I'm flexible and versatile because I No, no, I mean, if you said, listen, my company wants me to do business in Germany, so I'm going to learn German, then that would add value, right?
	As a dishwasher, how does it add value for you to know German?
	Well, I'm working in a Germanic-speaking country, so people are more likely to hire me.
	I'm sorry?
	People are more likely to hire me because I speak German.
	Okay, so you've learned the local language and, I mean, obviously you don't have to know very good German to be a dishwasher, but okay, so there's some value in that.
	What else?
	I have put a lot of effort into learning about diet and nutrition
	And although I did not figure it out completely, I have a lot of knowledge in this area, how to stay healthy and such things.
	Okay, but that doesn't particularly help.
	You can't make any money at that.
	I mean, you wouldn't raise your status with people.
	I mean, that's something that's useful to you, but... It's kind of maintenance, I would say.
	Okay, but I mean, so you put some effort into learning about nutrition.
	Okay.
	But that's largely for you, right?
	Well, that would be also for my, let's say, potential family, because they would benefit from this knowledge, of course.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	So, in a couple of years you'd like to be married, is that right?
	Like, hopefully?
	Yes.
	And what do you need to do, working backwards from that?
	What do you need to do to achieve that.
	I need to go and invest this money which i have to make something some business.
	you Okay, and so you have to, I mean you've been researching stuff for a while, how long have you been researching the Free City stuff, sorry I can't remember the term, the stuff that you've been looking at, how long have you been looking at that for?
	I know about it for a couple of years, three, four, I think, yeah.
	Okay, so you've been looking into this for a couple of years?
	Yeah, but I actually don't have that much experience in this because the other things, like my health, I keep going back and forth.
	I should push myself to do more and learn about this free cities stuff.
	But these health issues, I keep returning to learn more.
	Let's see again, we're back to the health thing.
	I have to discard the health thing, because you've already said you've been tested, right?
	So we don't know, at least I don't think anybody's, you can tell me if I'm wrong, I don't think anyone's confirmed that you have a health issue.
	I mean, it could be any number of things, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so, you go back to the health stuff, but nobody's been able to find anything, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, you've been looking into this for a couple of years, and you don't know whether you will invest or not.
	Yes, but I mean, I need to invest into something.
	What am I going to do with this money now?
	Okay, so maybe you need to make a decision about investment, and what are you going to do to be attractive to a high-quality woman?
	I need to be a happy person.
	Okay, and what steps do you think you need to take to become a happier person?
	I need to definitely drop this job where I am now and this environment because it's really pulling me down.
	But if I do this then I have this savings that I have but I need some income to feel more, how to say, safe.
	Well, I mean, I assume that part of the investment would be to provide an income.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so that might do it, right?
	But since I don't have a clear plan, then I'm kind of in a position where I cannot leave my job, but I don't have... Yeah, I mean, you're just... you're Groundhog Daying, right?
	You're just doing the same day over and over again, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, you're an intelligent guy.
	You listen to this show.
	I mean, I always put you in the top 1% of smarts, so you're well-educated.
	You got a computer science education.
	So, why do you think it is that you don't plan in this kind of way?
	And again, it's not critical.
	I'm just genuinely curious.
	I mean, there's things you know you need to do, but you're not doing them.
	Why do you think that is?
	This is so difficult to answer.
	There is just no life inside of me.
	When was the last time you remember feeling life inside of you?
	I'm not sure.
	you you
	So when I was playing video games and watching movies as a child, that was my biggest preoccupation before, so that's when I felt like I'm doing something interesting and my life is great.
	And as an adult, when have you last felt that or something close to it?
	So when I travel, then I feel more happier.
	I have been, I will not mention now the places, but I have been at some places I was traveling in the last month and the month before also.
	So whenever I'm on the move traveling that makes me more happy.
	Right, okay.
	Got it.
	And are you still on the antidepressants?
	No, I have just tried this briefly back then and this did not helped me really.
	It made me somehow docile, and I didn't like it, so I stopped.
	Do you feel that there's a spark within you that you can access, or that you would like to access?
	Yes, yes, I think there is.
	I just need to find a way how to ignite it.
	Right, okay.
	Well, I mean, I will obviously say that I'm incredibly sorry for what happened to you as a child.
	That was just appalling and violent and deeply immoral.
	I'm sorry that your father was so violent.
	I'm sorry that your mother delivered you unto evil and kept you in the house.
	She could have left any time.
	She could have packed up.
	I mean, the first time your father hit you when you were five, she could have said to him, you do that again and we're gone.
	And you need to get some anger management and you need to figure out how to control your temper because you are a lazy son of a bitch with your temper.
	I can't even tell you the amount of contempt I have for people who indulge their temper by beating children.
	It's so vile, contemptible, cowardly, bullying, vicious, evil, shitty behavior.
	Your father was lazy.
	He was not disciplined.
	Because if you don't have discipline over your own temper, You don't have discipline at all.
	I'm incredibly sorry for all of this, and of course all of the spillover effects that had in your school life and your social life.
	Terrible, absolutely appalling, terrible, wretched, wrong, immoral, and you were a pure, helpless, endlessly sympathized, endlessly to be sympathized with victim.
	over the first 18 years of your life.
	So I just I want to be really really clear about that.
	I'm outraged at how you were treated.
	I understand that for you it's tough because for you with anger comes murderous thoughts at least if I remember what you were saying about at the age of 10.
	Is that right?
	So for you anger may be associated with thoughts of evil.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	But, you were in a situation at the age of 10 of self-defense.
	Yep.
	You know, if, if, if I, like, let me just tell you straight up how I feel.
	Like, if I read a story, right, some, not you, but someone in the newspaper, right?
	I read a story that some guy was beating his 10-year-old son, and the son fought back, and the father stumbled backwards, fell down the stairs and died.
	Do you know how I would feel?
	How?
	I can't feel good, because now the child's got to live with that, but it'd be like, well, don't beat children.
	Yeah, I would think also, at least he's free now, the child.
	Well, and I would say, OK, well, the child's not good now, the child has this to live with, and the reason the child would have a tough time living with that is that society would... Like, if a man was beating up his wife, and his wife pushed back, and he fell down and hurt himself, I would feel very sad that anybody was in that situation, but it would also be like, well, don't beat your wife.
	Right?
	But the wife is there by choice.
	She could leave any time.
	You weren't there by choice and you couldn't leave, right?
	And your mother wasn't protecting you.
	And your society wasn't protecting you.
	And your teachers weren't protecting you.
	And in fact, the cruel schoolchildren in your environment were exploiting your lack of protection, right?
	By attacking you themselves!
	So, you have a lot to be angry about.
	But if the anger is associated with thoughts of murderousness, right, then I can understand why you'd keep them at bay.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, yeah.
	For myself, I could not recover my spark without being angry.
	Because being angry at being treated badly is a way of saying to yourself, I'm worth being treated well.
	If you can't get angry at being treated badly, I don't know how you can end up being treated well, does that make sense?
	Yes, yes, I know.
	And you were treated appallingly badly.
	And your mother is... I mean, you're almost giving your mother excuses now too, like she's stupid and so on, right?
	I don't know, I doubt it.
	I mean, intelligence tends to come through the maternal line.
	So, you know, I think you play dumb a little bit and you play tired a little bit.
	And I think maybe your mother does the same thing.
	I wouldn't give her those excuses if I were in your shoes.
	I don't know what you should do.
	I'm just telling you I wouldn't.
	I mean, I haven't really given you those excuses either, right?
	I've treated you as an intelligent person full of knowledge, right?
	Yeah.
	And I have pushed back against you playing dumb.
	Does that make sense?
	Mm-hmm, yes.
	And I think it's been fairly accurate, would you agree?
	Like, when pushed, you have the answers?
	Yeah, you said it good, yeah.
	Now, a lot of times, you know, this phrase in English, throw the baby out with the bathwater, it's like, well, the bathwater is used because the baby will throw the bathwater out and the baby, right?
	Throwing out the good with the bad.
	You may still, in fact, be living in rebellion against your father.
	Your father got married, you don't get married.
	Your father dated, you don't date.
	Your father had a good career, you don't have a good career.
	Right?
	You're living in, to some degree, I think, you're living in reaction to?
	If that makes... I mean, I'm not saying whether you agree, but do you sort of, like, you understand what I'm saying?
	Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	You mean like I'm rebelling against him by not wanting to be like him, not wanting to do... Yeah, be successful and have a family and all of that.
	Now, I would tell you this, my mother took such ridiculous pride at my success that I had a resentment about being successful.
	I didn't want to give her the satisfaction.
	Ah, yeah, yeah, okay, I know what you mean now, yeah.
	Now, that's really tragic, to say, I'm not going to achieve my potential because bad people did evil things to me when I was younger.
	I mean, that really is throwing the baby out with the bathwater, right?
	Exactly, yeah, it is.
	Why should I limit my potential because people abused me as a child?
	Well, I guess I got my own back because I've become very successful, but not in a way that people want to brag about.
	So, are you living small despite your father?
	Are you associating if you become successful, your father will say, well, I guess I did something right.
	He's got no real reason to complain.
	Look how well he's doing.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I know where you're getting this.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I know where you are going with this.
	Yeah.
	See, look, all that discipline, it really paid off, didn't it, kid?
	But it's not... I would tell him it's not your... like you have nothing to do with it.
	I would tell him this.
	Well, but then he would just say, well, are you saying that my parenting had nothing to do with how you turned out?
	Then you can't blame me for anything, either.
	I would tell him you have just put me down.
	You have nothing to do with this.
	That's all my effort.
	Right, right.
	But he would say, of course my parenting had an influence on you.
	It just, I can't believe how long it took for you to accept the discipline I tried to teach you and actually make something of your life.
	I don't know, it seems somehow funny now when you're saying this, like I would just laugh into his face.
	Right, okay.
	So, if you're living in reaction, then you're going to hold yourself down.
	If you accept your parents' evaluation of you, I mean, did your father, did he ever say, you're worthless, you're nothing, you're like, how did he verbally abuse you?
	Yeah, there was one event where I have done poorly in school with my grades and my mother took me by hand and led me to the kitchen and there was my father sitting and then I sat on the couch there on the sofa and then he unleashed This, um, these demons are, how should I say it?
	He was really saying that these things, how I'm worthless, that he will, he even said that he's going to break my arm, I think.
	It's going to break your arm.
	Yeah.
	How's that supposed to help with your schoolwork?
	I don't, I mean, it's monstrous, but I didn't even understand the logic.
	For me also, when I heard it, it didn't make any sense, but I don't know how this would work in his head.
	Right.
	Okay, so he says you're worthless, and the fundamental question is, do you believe him?
	Because you're acting like he's right.
	right I mean your life right is he right or is he an asshole
	When we're verbally abused, that's the fundamental question.
	Yep.
	Is he right, or is he an asshole?
	He's an asshole.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Then why the fuck are you living like he's right?
	Well, I don't know.
	I keep finding myself in, I keep wanting to go away and I, and I have led my, I have kind of like dragged myself up to here.
	Like, I mean that this is a very... Dragged yourself up to here?
	What are you talking about?
	You're a 35 year old dishwasher.
	Why are you acting like your dad was right?
	If he's an asshole.
	I mean, can you imagine?
	I mean, you and I wouldn't be having this conversation if the people who said the worst things about me, if I believed that they were right.
	Does that make sense?
	Sorry, can you say it again?
	I mean, people say some pretty terrible stuff about me.
	If I believed them, I wouldn't be doing this show, right?
	Yeah.
	I'm having this conversation with you because I reject the bad things that people say to me and about me, and not just on the internet or in the media, but, you know, my family and of origin and all that, right?
	Yeah.
	So, I'm of value to you because I reject the verbal abuse of those around me.
	So you're relying on me to reject the verbal abuse that I was subjected to in order to have this conversation.
	Does that make sense?
	I'm relying on you to reject the verbal abuse that I've received.
	Right, so people call me immoral and I want to do good in the world.
	If I accepted that I was immoral because people say that I'm a bad guy, I would stop doing what I'm doing because I don't want to be immoral.
	Right?
	So, I think I'm not sure, Dan, was he right or not?
	No, no, we're talking about me for a moment.
	I know it's tough, right?
	So, I have to reject the verbal abuse that I receive in order to provide value in this show, in these conversations.
	Because I wouldn't try to help people by giving philosophical feedback if I believed that I was doing evil in the world, right?
	So, you're having a conversation with me because I reject the verbal abuse that I experienced, and you find value in me, in part, because I have rejected the verbal abuse I've been subjected to.
	Does that make sense?
	Mm-hmm.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Because people say you're doing wrong, and I say, no, I'm doing good, and I have my standards by which I can judge that objectively, so it's not just an opinion.
	You find value in what I do because I have rejected the verbal abuse that I've been subjected to and I'm still subjected to.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, I'm an example of what can happen when you reject verbal abuse
	and you say that the people who are verbally abusing me are immoral
	and I reject their definition of me.
	But you're living like your father is right.
	Your father says, what, you're nothing, you won't amount to anything, you'll be nothing in this world, you're a loser, whatever he said, right?
	empirically, empirically, would those statement be accurate based upon
	the difference between your potential and what you're doing?
	I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?
	If your father saw your life after saying you wouldn't amount to nothing, would he consider himself right?
	Yes Okay, so that must mean that you're fulfilling your father's curse upon you.
	Yeah.
	Right, he says you'll amount to nothing.
	Now you have to conform to him otherwise either he kills you or you kill him.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Now you haven't talked to him in 12 years, am I right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	So why are you still living out his curse on you?
	I don't know.
	Right.
	I mean, I don't know either, and maybe a therapist can help you with that.
	I mean, if you've got some money.
	I mean, the first investment that I would, if I were in your shoes, the first investment that I would put my money in would not be Free Cities or whatever.
	It would be more like therapy to figure these things out.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes, yes.
	I have been in some therapies already, and I feel like this cannot help me.
	Like, I need to go and pull myself forward because nobody can help me.
	These people... I don't know.
	But you're not pulling... Okay, when were you last in therapy?
	Oh, it was many years ago.
	When were you last in therapy?
	Um, so it was 2017.
	I think I had an online conversation with a person, yeah, about this.
	I'm sorry, just one?
	So there are different therapies that I was at, but this last thing which I considered a therapy was in 2017, and it was actually two days.
	It was a three-hour conversation one day and three-hour conversation next day.
	That didn't do much for you?
	No.
	No, it didn't.
	Okay.
	How frustrated are you with your life?
	Very.
	On the scale from zero to ten, Nine and a half.
	Okay.
	So, tell me how do you feel?
	Like, where does it show?
	Is it tension in your belly?
	Like, how does it show up in your life that you feel so frustrated?
	Because I don't get a sense of much.
	I can't connect with you emotionally, and that could be my fault.
	I mean, I'm not saying it's you, but how does it manifest?
	How do you feel?
	How does it show up in your body or in your mind that you're frustrated this much with your life?
	So in my body, I'm having this very slouched position of my body.
	I have a lot of tension in my hips and my body is all somehow very stiff.
	It became very stiff lately in the last few years.
	I don't have anybody.
	I really kind of stay away from people.
	I don't have any, I don't have family and friends, if I can say it like this.
	I don't, I don't speak really.
	So lately I've been actually trying to push myself to do this, to speak with people.
	And I did find some interesting people.
	Uh, but I have nobody really whom I can call a friend.
	I don't have any connections.
	And yeah, I mean, you understand also that you're in the phase of life where nobody's invested in your success.
	I mean, is that fair to say?
	I mean, nobody's coming out and saying, I'm going to fix your life, right?
	Yeah, I would say it was like this since always.
	I didn't feel support from my parents before.
	Yes, I understand that.
	But you're 35 years old.
	You've been an adult for almost 20 years.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	So, at some point, saying my parents didn't support me, and that's a problem, at some point that has to fade away, right?
	And you have to take responsibility for your own life.
	And the fact that your parents mistreated you can never be an excuse.
	Is it like an excuse for you?
	Um, so consciously I don't realize it, but when we talk about it, then yes, it is like this.
	Okay, so you have an excuse called a bad childhood, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Why?
	Why is that an excuse?
	I mean, shouldn't that be a spur to make something of life and create a happy family and, like, you know exactly what not to do?
	So, sorry, go ahead.
	This is what you said earlier, that if I were to be successful, then they would take pride in this, but they don't have anything to do with this.
	It would only be my efforts.
	But they would still take pride in this, and I don't want to give them Right.
	So you're willing to hurt yourself because your parents hurt you?
	Yeah.
	Which is insane, right?
	I mean, it's crazy.
	My parents hurt me, and to get them back I'm going to hurt myself.
	The mugger stabbed me in the left side of my body, so to get him back I'm going to stab myself in the right side of my body.
	It's, I don't know, it's kind of like if I would I want to show them that they are hurting me, you know?
	So, how to say this?
	Yeah, you want them to wake up to your misery so that they become better parents.
	Yeah, that's never going to happen.
	I mean, you're spinning wheels underwater.
	You understand?
	It's never going to happen.
	Do you know why?
	Because they don't have a conscience and they don't have empathy.
	They don't care that you're unhappy.
	They may even take pleasure in it.
	Certainly your father took pleasure in your unhappiness because he beat you five hundred to a thousand times as a child.
	So waiting for them to show unhappiness at your unhappiness?
	It's like there's something that you haven't accepted about your parents.
	It's never going to happen.
	They don't have a conscience.
	They don't have empathy.
	I mean, you're trying to explain something complicated in a language they don't even understand, and you're just waiting for them to comprehend it.
	Yeah, I'm trying to hurt myself and instigate empathy in them.
	Yeah, like, it's, it's, you're actually, I mean, you're, you're pleasing them.
	Because your father can look at your life, and I'm sure your mother tells him, ah yes, the son you said would amount to nothing is a 35 year old dishwasher, with no friends, no girlfriend, no family, no kids, no future.
	Yeah, I always knew he was going to amount to nothing because he just didn't listen to me.
	Like you're actually, I mean, you think that you're going to generate sympathy, you're probably generating sadistic pleasure in them, and doing exactly what they want to feel vindicated.
	I mean, you're not fighting them, you're helping them.
	Do you know what I mean?
	Yeah.
	I mean if the torturer can get you to punch yourself he doesn't have to lift a finger.
	I mean of course a number of people over the course of my life,
	seeing how well my life has been going as a whole, a number of people, you know, they always say the same
	thing.
	They say, You complain about your mother, but she must have done something right.
	Yeah.
	Now why on earth would I want to give up a happy marriage and good parenting because some idiots give praise to my abusive mother for how well I lived?
	My life has turned out despite her.
	This somehow, like, gives me a little bit anger as when you say it.
	Go on.
	Oh, because people, like, would say to me, your mother must have done something, right?
	Look how well your life has turned out.
	No, you know, like to praise somebody for something that he or she did not do.
	Now, I mean, my mother, in a sense, by doing everything wrong, gave me a blueprint for how to do things right.
	But it wasn't conscious, I mean, she was just acting out her own cruelty, and her own self-pity, and her own victimization narrative, and of course, you know, whatever happened to her in the war, and all of these terrible things that I'm sure went on when the Russian soldiers invaded, it was brutal.
	So... But I have to have my values independent of evildoers.
	I mean, I can't live my life in reaction to evildoers, because that's giving them power over me.
	I mean, when you listen back to this, I hope that you'll understand it is one of the things that's deeply upsetting to me is how much power your parents have over you.
	How much your life is lived in subjugation to or reaction to what they do.
	So you dated a girl when you were 21, you dated a girl who was not traumatized, right?
	And you broke up with her because she couldn't fully empathize with your trauma.
	But wouldn't you want somebody who wasn't traumatized?
	Wouldn't that be a better mother for your children?
	Yeah, it would.
	So again, your parents dictated that you needed her to empathize with your trauma when she hadn't been traumatized and she was 15 years old or 16 years old, right?
	Yeah.
	So that's an impossible task.
	You had an impossible standard, right?
	And then you have a pretty impossible standard with your mother.
	Well, she needs to understand and empathize and help me and this, that and the other, right?
	But she can't.
	She can't.
	She stood idly by and maybe even encouraged you.
	Did she ever say to you, wait till your father gets home?
	or did she ever tell your father wrong things you'd done knowing he would beat you?
	Sorry, can you say that last part again?
	Did your mother ever inform your father about something you didn't done wrong, and as a result your father beat you?
	Well, no.
	My father would just beat me when, I don't know, when he thought it was appropriate.
	Okay, so your mother didn't say to your father You know what your son did today?
	Blah blah blah?
	No, no, she did not say such thing.
	So she never instigated your father to beat you?
	No, she didn't.
	Okay.
	I'm obviously going to accept that.
	But she stood idly by where her child got beaten.
	Repeatedly.
	Viciously.
	Once or twice a week.
	For over ten years, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	She didn't have empathy for you when you were being beaten in front of her.
	What makes you think she'd have empathy for you now?
	I mean, it's like saying, I can't hear a very loud sound, but maybe I can hear a whisper.
	That doesn't make any sense, right?
	If she didn't have empathy for you when you were being beaten in front of her, shortly after you came out of her, what makes you think she would develop empathy later in life?
	It's like saying, well, my mother was born without an arm, or she lost her arm shortly after birth, but now she's in her sixties, I'm absolutely waiting for her arm to regrow.
	But is it like this?
	Yes, it is.
	Yes, it is.
	Nobody knows.
	How to grow a conscience.
	Nobody.
	Nobody knows how to fix a lack of empathy.
	Nobody.
	Otherwise we would have done that as a species long ago.
	All right, so I'm trying to do something what is impossible then.
	Yeah.
	You're trying to get empathy from people who don't have empathy.
	Which is like you're literally standing in front of somebody with no arms trying to get them to shake your hand.
	This is like, I want to believe you but this is somehow so difficult for me to believe.
	I really want that my mother feels empathy.
	Of course you do.
	Of course you do.
	And you think that would solve something, right?
	It wouldn't.
	Let's say that your mother wakes up tomorrow somehow with the full empathy centers of her brain there, which have never been there, right?
	To me, this is as crazy as expecting to wake up speaking fluent Mandarin tomorrow.
	Or whatever, right?
	But let's just say your mother wakes up with full empathy tomorrow, right?
	And she's, oh my gosh, first of all, she might kill herself.
	Do you follow?
	Because she would then realize that she had stood by while her child was beaten a thousand times, right?
	So, I mean, even if she could develop empathy, she wouldn't, because it would probably end her.
	But let's say, somehow, that didn't happen either.
	She has empathy, she really cares about you suddenly, and she's able to survive the unbelievable guilt.
	Right?
	So, people who've done great wrong in their lives, empathy provokes guilt, provokes suicidal thoughts.
	Right?
	They can't develop empathy.
	Because empathy produces guilt.
	Now, you and I, if we have a conscience, right, then we have a continual monitoring system, right?
	We do something wrong, we feel bad, we make amends, you know, we don't let things accumulate, right?
	So, your mother, let's say that she wakes up tomorrow with empathy, then she's going to feel terrible guilt.
	Let's say she somehow survives that and doesn't throw herself off a bridge.
	And then she starts dealing with you with full empathy, then you feel that that will fix your childhood, but it will actually make it worse, because now you'll be fully aware of everything that you were missing as a child.
	Now you have received it, right?
	And then you will be angry at your mother for saying, well hang on a minute, if you had all of this empathy this whole time, why do you only activate it now that I'm 35, rather than when I was 1 or 3 or 5 or 10 or 15, when it actually would have done me some good?
	Like imagine you and I are walking in the desert and you're dying of thirst, right?
	And right before you're just about to die of thirst, I produce a nice big shiny bottle of cold water, right?
	I mean, you'd be relieved, but you'd also be angry at me, like, why the hell did you let me almost die?
	So, if your mother has the capacity for empathy and some magic switch activates it, all that would happen is, you'd be really upset that it didn't happen in the past.
	Like, if you could have done this all the time, why the hell do you wait till I'm 35 and my life is such a mess?
	Yeah, that would be very upsetting.
	Right, so it wouldn't solve anything.
	Even if the impossible happened, and your mother did develop and manifest all of this sudden empathy, it wouldn't make your childhood better, it would in fact make it worse.
	If you accept that your mother doesn't have empathy, your father doesn't have empathy, then your childhood becomes less bad, and you stop waiting for it in adulthood, right?
	Expecting people to grow empathy is a form of dangerous magical thinking.
	Because it keeps you in an orbit of expectation that robs your life like a vampire on your throat.
	Don't wait for miracles, deal with facts, right?
	Like some guy, you study nutrition, some guy who's 300 pounds, he says, well, I'm not going to diet or exercise, I'm just going to wait until I wake up Lean and with abs.
	I'm just going to go to sleep, I'm going to wake up, I'm going to be lean and I'm going to have abs, right?
	And if he believes that's possible, why on earth would he bother dieting and exercising?
	But it's more likely that a fat guy is going to wake up, in my view, it's more likely that a fat guy is going to wake up lean and with abs than it is for Unrepentant child abusers to wake up with empathy.
	It's not going to happen.
	It's never going to happen.
	It's an impossibility.
	I'll be happy when my father wakes up a different race.
	Like, nope.
	I'll be happy when my father wakes up as an elephant.
	I'll be happy when my mother has grown a third arm out of her forehead.
	Well, that's just a way of guaranteeing you'll never get... I'll be happy when my parents, who cruelly mistreated me for 35 years, wake up with empathy, sensitivity, morality, and compassion.
	I mean, this is one of the definitions of an abusive relationship, is hope.
	Right?
	It's like the woman who's beaten up every week by her husband.
	It's like, no, no, tomorrow he's going to wake up and be a great husband.
	I've got my fingers crossed.
	You know, all that does is keep the woman in the abusive relationship.
	It's part of the abuse.
	Hope is part of the abuse.
	You see what I'm saying?
	And I think giving that up is pretty essential.
	How do I do that?
	Then how do I give up this hope?
	Well, see, now you're just going all rubberbones on me again, right?
	You keep having the same... We keep having the same pattern, right?
	It's really kind of tedious.
	How do you give up hope?
	You recognize that something's impossible.
	You accept it's... I mean, what do you mean?
	How do you... How do you accept the truth?
	You accept the truth!
	But how do I accept the truth?
	Are you asking me for a mechanical diagram of some kind?
	A machine?
	An input-output?
	A flowchart?
	I mean, do you accept the facts?
	How do I accept the facts?
	I don't know how to answer that.
	2 and 2 make 4.
	How do I accept that 2 and 2 make 4?
	Give me a diagram.
	It's like, I can't answer that.
	You either accept it or you don't, right?
	You either accept that You have no rational reason to believe in imminent empathy from people who've abused children.
	You either accept that or you don't.
	I mean, how do I accept that?
	But that's just an act of will, right?
	It's just an act of will.
	If you find yourself slipping into sentimentality, you say, well, no, they don't have empathy and they're not going to grow it.
	I mean, read the book by Cohen called The Science of Evil.
	it's like 13 or 16 different brain components need to be activated in the
	right sequence for people to develop empathy as babies, as toddlers.
	If I say your mother doesn't speak Japanese, right?
	If I say, does your mother speak Japanese?
	You say, no.
	Okay, and then I say, okay, so you have to accept that your mother doesn't speak Japanese, right?
	And then you say to me, but how do I accept that my mother doesn't speak Japanese?
	Right?
	Well, you either focus on that or you don't.
	You accept that or you don't.
	You write down every day.
	You write on your mirror.
	You shave in the morning.
	My parents don't have empathy.
	And they never will.
	And they never will.
	And there's nothing you can do about it.
	There's nothing you can do.
	I can't open up my mother's brain, tinker with it, and produce empathy in her.
	And if I did, it would probably kill her anyway.
	Right?
	So I can't do that.
	Do you accept that?
	that I can't fix my mother's lack of empathy?
	Sorry, I'm not sure if you're still on the line.
	Yeah, yeah, I'm here.
	Okay.
	Do you accept that I cannot fix my mother's lack of empathy?
	I mean, I'm in my 50s, she's in her 80s.
	Do you accept that I cannot fix her lack of empathy?
	Now, how do I remember that?
	I don't know, it's just an act of will.
	How do you remember?
	How do you remember to eat well?
	How do you remember to brush your teeth?
	You just do.
	Maybe you need to write it down, remind yourself, journal, I mean, maybe talk to a therapist, but how do you remember what is true?
	That's something you have to do, and you have to figure out how to do that.
	But that would be my suggestion going forward, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, thank you.
	All right, is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	I really, really do appreciate the conversation.
	I know it was a bit fractious at times, but I really do appreciate the chat, and I think you did a great job.
	Thank you.
	I appreciate that you held, I'm not sure how to say it, that you hold on with me because
	I realize how difficult it was in the beginning to speak with me.
	Yeah, I'm sorry about that.
	So yeah, I would definitely recommend some talk therapy.
	I mean, it sounds like you have the resources, and if you get the right person, it could be very helpful.
	And yeah, whatever you need to do to remind yourself of your parents' limitations is probably good, and you're just going to have to find some way to will your life to be lived on your terms rather than in reaction.
	But, you know, I mean, you're obviously a very smart guy with great potential, and I'm sure you'll achieve it.
	And I hope that you'll stay in touch and let me know how it's going.
	Yeah, thank you.
	Thanks, brother.
	Take care.
	I appreciate the chat.

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