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Sept. 10, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:20:24

Sisters for Life?!? Freedomain Call In

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	I've listened to you for a long time, so it's a little surreal to talk to you.
	Hopefully it doesn't stay too surreal.
	It doesn't get weirder and weirder, hopefully.
	I'm sure we'll avoid that, but yeah, go ahead.
	I think that the first, there's like kind of two things I think I'd like to get out of this call as much as we're able, is I want to be like a better wife and a better mother.
	And I feel like there's conflicts in my husband and my relationship that are often due to outside us factors, but then they're affecting our kids and our family.
	Because yeah, sometimes we're fighting and that's not Helpful for our family.
	I get that.
	And what are you guys fighting about?
	There's a lot of it is driven by, I think, our extended families.
	Sorry.
	And I'm sorry that I was completely imprecise in my question.
	My apologies.
	What's the surface level stuff that you're fighting about?
	You know, like people fight about dishes or money or sex or like what's what's the surface level stuff that you guys are fighting about?
	about how do the topics manifest?
	I would say it's often like, I got really hungry and wanted to go like,
	through the Taco Bell drive-thru to have something to eat like immediately.
	And then he, I like, I made, I like said it multiple times.
	And then one of the kids said they wanted to go to a different restaurant for lunch.
	And then he was like, Oh, great.
	Let's go head up this other restaurant.
	And then we had to wait too long to get our food.
	And then I got really upset.
	Yeah, that was a recent example.
	Okay.
	No, that's good.
	No, that's, that's good.
	I appreciate it.
	It's amazing how small these things are, but then how big they can dig, right?
	How big they can dig.
	So you were hungry and you wanted Taco Bell.
	Your husband didn't want Taco Bell and you ended up going to some other restaurant where it took too long to get your food.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Hearing the kids.
	So it's, it's usually something else, like someone else, whether it be our kids or extended family.
	I mean, it's mentioned a different restaurant.
	Oh, I like that one.
	And then end up going that direction, not realizing.
	Wait, that one takes a little bit longer and my wife actually needs something now.
	And then she gets hurt by that she needed something now and her voice was not heard.
	I mean, I did not care.
	I think that's a good way of summarizing.
	Okay.
	So, I mean, there's the words and then, I mean, I'm sure you guys know all this stuff, right?
	So I'll just touch on it briefly.
	There's the words and then there's the meaning, right?
	So if it's like, well, we're not going to Taco Bell is the words and the feeling is You don't care about me.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Cause I was like, I just want a quick taco from the drive through and then I want to go home and have an actual meal.
	Ah, so you just wanted to tide me over, they call it, or something like that, right?
	Yeah, I was just desperate.
	I'm like, you know, nine months pregnant and I just needed some food.
	We spent too long at the beach because the kids didn't want some food.
	You're denying food to a woman nine months pregnant?
	You monster!
	Eating for three and a half!
	There could be twins in there, triplets!
	Who knows, could be a whole village!
	Okay, just kidding.
	All right, all right, all right.
	Sorry, you did hear your wife say she wanted to talk about, right?
	Yes.
	And what was your thought process, as do you the husband, what is your thought process about that?
	Yeah, so my thought process, I don't mind Taco Bell, we could have gone there, but I was immediately thinking, well, if we're going to go out to eat, might as well do something better.
	And then one of the kids mentioned a different restaurant and that sounded better.
	So then I mentioned that one to her.
	And I think part of the problem can be sometimes where I mentioned something to her and then she agrees with it, but doesn't really agree with it because she feels like she needs to agree with it.
	And it might stem a little bit from her family.
	Well, I mean, to be fair, all of the kids then hopped on board and wanted that restaurant instead of just doing a taco drive-thru.
	It's hard for her then to be the only person when everyone else wants the other thing.
	But then that's where I, as the husband, should be saying, Nope, she needs this.
	Let's do this.
	Okay, sorry, I'm a little confused because I thought it was just a snack so you could eat at home, so what's the other restaurant?
	What do we do, Chick-fil-A?
	Well, yeah, there's Chick-fil-A.
	No, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what the restaurant is, I don't understand.
	So if, you know, if the wife is just like, I need something to eat because I'm crashing here and, you know, then we'll have a proper meal at home, where does the other restaurant thing come into it?
	Because that's not what she wants, right?
	She wants like a snack at Taco Bell, right?
	And so, yeah, we were going to eat at home.
	So I think then that the idea of a different restaurant, all of us eating together sounded better.
	I think you wanted to be here.
	Let me just, sorry, just make sure I understand.
	So sounded better to who?
	To me.
	Now, was it partly that, sorry, was it partly that you wanted your wife to have a better experience by having a proper dinner in a restaurant with the family?
	No.
	I think it was to have, like, a meal together as a family in the restaurant versus just my wife picking up something.
	And that's probably where the problem.
	She wanted just a quick nap.
	I was thinking of it as more of a family meal.
	But that directly opposes what she wants, essentially.
	Well, what's wrong with a quick snack and then you go for a meal?
	I'm sort of trying to figure out where the disagreements came from here.
	So, your wife wants a quick snack and you want to eat at a restaurant, so she grabs a quick snack and then you go to a restaurant.
	Is it something like that?
	That could have been a good solution.
	I mean, that is, you know, because there's this typical thing, and I remember, of course, when my wife was pregnant, you know, like, I want dill-pickered flavored potato chips and some ice cream.
	And it's like, okay, I don't know what weird alchemy is going on down in that little furnace of a belly there, or that not so little furnace of a belly.
	But, you know, you just, you run over hell's half acre to get what your wife wants, right?
	Particularly when she's pregnant, right?
	Well, I think I just spent most of the last six years pregnant.
	So it doesn't really seem like anything special.
	We've, I don't know what was mentioned, but we have four kids, six and under, and then the fifth on the way, there'll be under seven.
	So five under seven.
	So it's just been like a constant, um, So she's kind of a baby factory.
	So you get her a snack.
	So you get her a snack.
	She's a conveyor belt.
	My gosh.
	Okay.
	So I'm trying to figure out, so the communication thing is I need a snack and then you transform that into, let's all sit down for a meal at a restaurant.
	And then she ends up not getting any food.
	Cause the restaurant is going to take, is it like, is it like one of these places?
	Like we might be able to suit you in 45 minutes kind of thing.
	No, it was like, uh, it was probably took 15 extra minutes to get food than if we had gone to the other place.
	But it's also like a drive-through versus sitting in a really crowded space.
	And I, when I like am really, really hungry, I get anxious around a lot of people.
	And it was super crowded in there.
	Why'd you get anxious around people when you're hungry?
	Did you come from a predatory family or?
	Well.
	I was going to go there a little bit earlier.
	I think she does have a history of not having her voice heard in her family growing up.
	Right?
	You would agree with that?
	Well, yeah, I was much more introverted and all of them were just super wanted to do things all the time, go places all the time.
	Okay.
	So you as the husband know that your wife has an issue with her voice not being heard.
	Yes.
	And I need to factor that in.
	Well, how long have you guys been together?
	Eight years?
	Yeah.
	And over that eight year period, my friend, when did you find out that your wife had a history of not being listened to?
	When was that, like, year two, three?
	What would you say?
	Yeah, maybe, I don't know.
	It was a couple years in, but not a lot.
	So you guys were together for a couple of years before you found out about basic childhood stuff?
	You've been listening to my show for eight years!
	How could you miss the childhood stuff?
	We did talk about a lot of childhood stuff, but I don't think I realized the voice not being heard saying as much at that point in time.
	Sorry, when did you notice conflict over the wife's voice not being heard?
	Fairly early, I guess.
	But I don't think we realized that that was why.
	We've learned a lot about both of our I think childhoods and how that's been factoring into our marriage over the past two years, maybe?
	Yeah, because it's a funny thing, and it's complicated.
	So, I mean, I can understand, I'm sort of joking with this, but I can understand why it's a challenge, right?
	So, we want to be sensitive to our partner's deficiencies, like what happened to them in childhood, the sort of old pain and old wounds.
	We want to be sensitive to that stuff, but at the same time, we don't want to be dictated to and dominated by it.
	Yeah.
	And that's a tightrope.
	That is a big challenge, and there's no obvious answer.
	It's sort of like a gut instinct, because if it's like, well, you know, my wife was never listened to, so I've always got to listen to her and accommodate her, then that goes from a deficiency of power as a child to an excess of power as a partner.
	And so it is a challenging thing to navigate or to balance, if that makes sense.
	Mm-hmm.
	I think with the baby factory as we were discussing maybe um, I think I've just felt the Most of our marriage has just been trying to serve her because she needs right rightly.
	So it should be but then I then feel selfish at times like Wanting to get my way.
	I guess serve her because of the pregnancies Yeah, and like help her I'm sorry, I'm a little confused here.
	Whose sperm is it?
	Did she trip on the water, or did she get in a swimming pool?
	So, what do you mean, help her?
	You guys have chosen to make these babies together.
	You're one flesh.
	You can't help your wife.
	Right?
	It's helping me, yes.
	Well, you're helping the family.
	You're helping the plan that you both have signed up for, which is to have a lot of kids, right?
	Yes, yes, we both want that, yes.
	Okay, so what do you mean by help her?
	It seems like there's a distance, like you feel like somehow you're a servant to a decision that you both made?
	Yeah, I think that's how I spent the first, I don't know how many years of our marriage, I think, and slowly, partially, a little bit getting over that maybe, but yeah.
	Were you both on board with this many kids?
	Yes.
	Not as quickly as they came.
	Maybe we didn't realize how quickly they would come.
	Sorry, you didn't realize how quickly women could get pregnant?
	Did I hear something about an Irish background there?
	You can't share a cup of coffee with Irish women!
	We didn't know about that, actually.
	That's the reason why so many people had to flee when the price of potatoes went up five pennies.
	Anyway.
	Okay, so... And the other piece of it is I got chronically ill the week before our wedding, and it lasted the first two years of our marriage.
	Oh gosh, what happened?
	We didn't actually know what it was until...
	And a half into it, um, it turned out to be chronic mono or epstein-barr virus
	Um, huh and it was seven doctors before they could figure out what in the world was wrong with me
	And they kept just telling me, oh, it's just because you're like newly married, or because you moved, or because you just had a child.
	Oh yeah, heaven forbid you go to socialist doctors with anything complicated.
	They don't want to have anything to do with you.
	Strep throat, easy antibiotics, they're good.
	But anything like, I have a heart pain in my stomach, they're just like, yeah, it's anxiety, here's some pills, go away.
	Yes.
	So what was the solution to this Epstein-Barr?
	Well, they told me that there was really nothing they could do about it because it was viral and antivirals don't often work on this specific one when it's chronic.
	So I had a friend who told me all about a specific natural modality to try.
	So I went like full force into that and it worked.
	And what is the natural modality?
	High dose vitamin C. Wow.
	I was literally buying it by the pound.
	It was a lot.
	Wow.
	But it worked.
	Yeah.
	Most people can take like 10 to 15 grams before you get a very small movement.
	I was taking 100 grams at a time.
	Holy crap.
	You're like mainlining an orange tree grove.
	So, and what were the symptoms before?
	Do you know how you got it?
	And what were the symptoms before and how quickly did they lift?
	It like hit me the week before our wedding.
	It was like that whole week I was just like, what is wrong with me?
	I just felt so exhausted and dragging.
	And then It just, yeah, it kind of hit all at once.
	Just suddenly I woke up and I was exhausted all the time and just slept.
	Um, that's, we got married in like the spring and then that summer I actually had to quit my job cause I couldn't do it.
	I was too tired.
	And my husband would come home from work and he'd be like, so what'd you do today?
	And I'm like, I was too tired to go on my phone.
	So I just laid here and stared at the ceiling.
	Wow.
	Now, I'm not an expert on any of this, so forgive me for my lack of knowledge.
	Is it something that they describe to you as like, this matches this cluster of symptoms?
	Or is it that they can actually see the viruses squiggling around in a microscope or something?
	Eventually, the seventh doctor I went to did a titer test for all sorts of viruses and other things.
	And my Epstein-Barr virus titers were like through the roots.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	It said anything over like 30 was positive for the virus and mine was over 800.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Which is why you went on the very high dose vitamin C. Okay.
	Yes.
	And that was a couple of years?
	Yeah, that was the first two years of our marriage.
	I didn't know what was wrong with me until a year and a half into it.
	And then once I knew what it was and I could start like dealing with it, Knowing what I was fighting, it was like six more months.
	How did she get back to normal?
	Yes.
	Wow.
	We had one kid through that and then she was pregnant with a second, then I guess as you were recovering.
	So it probably wore her immune system down too, I would imagine.
	Sorry, she's chronically viral infected and you had two kids?
	right? I think yes.
	It was stupid.
	Well, no, I mean, you're obviously very intelligent people, so I don't... I'm not sure I quite follow the logic here.
	You know, I'm obviously not criticizing you for having kids, I think that's wonderful, I'm just, you know, if she can't get out of bed, and she doesn't know what's wrong, like, you don't know what's wrong with you, and you don't know if there's going to be cure, and all the doctors are saying whatever is in your head, or whatever they're saying, how does that work with having a kid before the health issue is resolved?
	Or two, really.
	It didn't work very well, but we made it, kind of.
	Like, I was able to... No, but what if you hadn't found a cure?
	Right?
	I mean, you're kind of locked out with doctor number seven, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So I'm trying to sort of follow the reasoning here.
	I know this sounds all kinds of critical.
	I don't mean it that way.
	I'm a little surprised.
	I think it was partly religious.
	Okay.
	Where neither of us were entirely comfortable with like hormonal birth control.
	Right.
	Um, but then due to, I'm pretty sure that he had like a botched circumcision or something when he was a baby.
	Um, so barrier standard condoms like don't work.
	Hmm.
	Um, and So we were doing like the diaphragm and that's not 100% effective.
	Uh huh.
	So that's how that happened.
	Okay.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	We would take measures, but they would reduce probabilities, but we found out that 90% is not 100%.
	And ours always seemed to be, like, the 1% chance of whatever it was.
	Yeah, the math checks out.
	Yeah, we would also, like, abstain on days to post ovulation, and that didn't seem to matter either.
	Right, right.
	Got the perma eggs, right?
	Okay.
	It appears so.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, obviously, it's thrilling to have that many kids, and I envy that, so good for you.
	So, when you first met, what were the virtues or values that drew you to each other?
	We both lived in or near D.C.
	The city that we lived near just didn't have a lot of Christians and conservative Christians.
	Yeah, you could say that.
	So we were trying to find like-minded believers and just not able to find that.
	So we actually found each other on a very unique dating site
	Yeah, and he was from the state next to mine Okay, and then as we began getting to know each other we
	realized we actually share a lot in common belief-wise We didn't of course enjoyed each other's company
	Yeah, both like intellectual conversations all that stuff God I would joke in the past that he was the only guy in
	the entire state that Fit my like religious requirements
	Run, okay.
	And mine, too, for the most part, because I would most have to compromise, probably, on something.
	I wasn't able to find someone that actually believed all the things.
	Yeah.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	And your cultural backgrounds, are they similar?
	Kind of, but not really.
	Ambiguous.
	I like it.
	We both grew up conservative Christian, but in, like, very different ways.
	Go on.
	Well, he comes from, like, Dutch ancestry, and they're very rules-oriented, and you do things because that's how you do them.
	Or tradition, or, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Just don't question... You went to, like, the same church your entire childhood.
	Like, super stability kind of thing.
	And then my family was not that way, but also conservative Christian in a lot of ways, but they hopped from church to church all the time because they were looking for something more pure, I guess.
	And so yeah, there wasn't much stability there and they had really strong beliefs, but I just, I feel like I'm in soup.
	I don't know.
	Yeah, I think different style.
	Yeah.
	Um, my family was a lot more reserved.
	Hers was a lot more just Irish, Italian, right?
	Boisterous and speak your mind a little bit as well.
	Yeah.
	Like my Irish and Italian.
	Yes.
	Two Catholic bastions of fertility.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Just checking.
	Just checking.
	All right.
	That was just dad's side.
	The other side was Scandinavian.
	Okay.
	Um, but they were all hot-blooded and emotionally distant.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	All right.
	Actually describes it quite well.
	Yeah.
	The stereotypes exist for a reason.
	I'm not saying you judge everyone that way, but it's not, not an inaccurate often when you zoom out, right?
	Beliefs very similar growing up even, but styles, behaviors, Reasoning.
	They had a lot of reasons for why they would do things.
	Right.
	Mine was just, that's the way you did it, that's the way we were taught, it makes sense to me, don't question it kind of thing.
	Right, so a conservatism to the point of almost rigidity, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And then mine was, if that rule doesn't make sense, why in the world would we follow it?
	Right, okay.
	Now, of course, all couples have their disagreements, and I'm sure that it started at some point where you had disagreements.
	So, had you discussed much, I guess, before or after marriage, how you were going to resolve disagreements?
	What was going to be the process or the procedure to resolve disagreements?
	No.
	We were committed, like, divorce was not an option, but I don't think we ever discussed, like, right?
	I don't think so.
	I think we talked about what do we do if we disagree, and then it was like, well, we'll try to come to an agreement together, and then if we can't, then I just go with whatever he decides.
	Okay.
	So, can you remember an early disagreement where you had to try and bring that rather abstract theory into practical use?
	Yeah.
	So the first one had to do with my sister, right?
	I think that'd be the first.
	Yeah.
	Um, so my younger sister and I were very close growing up and then through college.
	Um, and then when and learning since then, I guess, I think I served as kind of like a substitute.
	We, we had a father, but he wasn't, he was too wishy-washy to provide the emotional support for her.
	Is that a good way of describing it?
	Um, but, uh, So I think I serve, I realized now that I served as like a substitute father for her, not realizing at the time, um, and provide a lot of emotional support for her, I think.
	Um, so then with, when she met, sorry, when she met my wife, um, then, um, I think there was some jealousy is the right word, but like she felt threatened.
	I'm sorry, what's the age difference between you and your sister?
	One and a half years.
	One and nine months.
	That's a narrow age gap to be a father figure.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Um, that's, I just bookmarked that in my brain, but sorry.
	So you, you felt that when you met your wife, your sister got jealous?
	Yeah.
	And like threatened almost that I was, I was then not able to be there for her when she was going through her own hard, very hard times, hard relationships and such.
	And how old were you when you met your wife?
	26.
	Okay.
	So she was like 24 and change or something like that, right?
	Yep.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So you had tried to raise her.
	And because you were also a kid, you hadn't done a super great job, right?
	Because she wasn't independent in her mid-twenties.
	Yeah.
	Now, I mean, obviously you're a kid, right?
	So kids can't raise kids, right?
	Otherwise we wouldn't have parents, right?
	Yep.
	So, was she aware that your pretend fatherhood or your pseudo-fatherhood hadn't been what she needed?
	Did she know that?
	Did she get any therapy or do self-work and say, okay, well I need to figure out what I was missing that obviously my brother tried to provide but couldn't do a great job because he's a kid, so I need to backfill that somehow?
	No.
	I don't know if becoming a therapist counts.
	Yeah, she's a therapist social worker now.
	Okay.
	But she wasn't, I guess, back then, right?
	Yeah, she was.
	And what kind of relationship issues was she dealing with?
	with?
	Um, had a 10 year relationship with the guy, was waiting for her, or for him to, um, commit
	essentially.
	And never happened.
	Oh, okay.
	Sorry.
	I thought the story was going to go a little longer than that.
	All right.
	Okay.
	So he never committed and she was kind of tortured by that?
	Yeah.
	And yet felt the need to continue.
	Well, that's a, you know, a fallacy of sunk costs, right?
	It's tough to walk if you wait for the bus for three days, right?
	So, okay.
	Yeah.
	While we were dating.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	She decided to move multiple states away to where he was to try to like salvage it.
	And did she, what advice did she get from family and friends regarding this guy?
	Yeah, early.
	So we liked him the first year, but then after, after that, then, um, myself and my entire family did not like him and gave that feedback to her concerns, I guess, uh, with.
	So basically you said he's not the guy, it's not going to work, you're wasting your time, and she didn't listen?
	Correct.
	And this kind of went on, yeah.
	And then she didn't want to hear it anymore, so then we kind of just stopped giving that feedback.
	And what was it that finally blew this scheme apart?
	Blew the scheme apart?
	What do you mean?
	Like broke up, sorry.
	I'm being a bit abstract there, sorry, go ahead.
	Like, what ended her?
	Oh.
	Oh, um, well, she found out that he got engaged to someone else.
	Ah!
	Randomly.
	What?!
	Yeah.
	Ten years in!
	I heard!
	He met some girl, and then three months later, they were engaged.
	And then they were married.
	Well... After ten years with her, kind of concurrently.
	Yeah, I mean, I've been down that road.
	I was in a relationship for a good chunk of my 20s.
	But, you know, I broke up and then sometime later I met my wife and we got married within 11 months.
	Okay, so I get that.
	So how did she handle this breakup?
	Not well.
	It was just an emotional wreck.
	And so this was the first, yeah, roughly first year of.
	Well, the salvaging attempt was the first date we are dating while we were dating and then our, our first year of marriage.
	And then it was like the second year I think is when it had blown up.
	Yeah.
	So then there would be frequent calls, semi-frequent calls.
	I don't know how frequent, um, but where she was distressed, of course, and then I would try to be there for her, but then.
	It began to, that was also the same time that my wife was going through her, uh, mono and having, and pregnancy and you're trying to adjust to marriage and illness and babies.
	And yeah, yeah, that's a lot.
	Yeah.
	All this stuff.
	So, um, you can see kind of how both sides begin to feel.
	So my sister thought my wife should be more caring and like care about her problem.
	Realizing and appreciating the fact that we are now husband, wife, and That takes precedent, um, and then her illness and all that stuff too.
	But then I think my wife then started to feel like I was, my sister was coming in between us and I felt caught in the middle.
	Sorry, but she was, wasn't she?
	I mean, she was taking a lot of time, energy and resources from you when you're trying to adjust to a new wife, a new kid, new illness that you don't even know when it's going to end or if, right?
	Yep.
	So I did not handle that well the first couple of years cause yeah.
	Partially due to the closeness with my sister, it was hard to see her go through what she was going through, then it was also hard to see my wife.
	Sorry, I'm still trying to understand the closeness with your sister.
	It sounds a little claustrophobic to me.
	That's not close.
	That's kind of codependent, right?
	Which is... Yeah.
	Because I'm trying to figure out... Okay, when did the family first say, this is not the guy for you, probably not a good idea?
	I think it was after either six months or a year.
	Okay, so basically she went on for almost a decade, nine years or nine years plus, not listening to her family saying, I got this, you're all wrong, I'm right, he is the guy for me.
	Yeah.
	So I'm trying to figure out why you'd have...
	A shred of sympathy for somebody who ignored your advice, did the wrong thing, kind of insulted you by saying you were totally wrong and maybe you just don't want her to be happy or something like that, and then waits a decade of her life.
	Yeah.
	I mean, this is literally like saying, you know, you really shouldn't be part of that criminal gang.
	Oh no, that criminal gang is really, really bad.
	No, you're wrong, man.
	It's not a criminal gang.
	And then they go to jail.
	For five years they come out and then they're crying about how you gotta help them.
	Yeah.
	So that's a dynamic that's interesting, and I think, I know that this sounds a bit like we're off the beaten track, but I think this fits into Taco Bell.
	I know this sounds odd, but I think it does.
	Yeah.
	So, your sister calls up, and she's like, uh-huh-huh, he broke up with me, he's getting married to someone else, right?
	And what was your response or reaction to all of this?
	I think I'm trying to remember now to feel Well, it was a huge amount of sympathy, because otherwise you wouldn't have kept calling, right?
	Yeah, yep.
	And I wanted to say, you always want to say, I told you so, right?
	But I didn't say that.
	And sorry, why not?
	Because you did.
	Did what?
	Well, you did, you did tell her so for nine plus years.
	Oh, yes.
	Yes.
	So what's, and so what's wrong with saying, I told you so.
	I mean, cause I know people have this weird reaction.
	Oh, I don't want to just say I told you so.
	And it's like, well, why not?
	It's important because you got to remind the person that you had credibility and you were right.
	Otherwise they just won't listen next time.
	I finally, I told her that I think it was a, I forget how long after six months, I don't know, sometime after, within the first year, and I could barely get the words out of my mouth, and she stopped me and said, I know, I know, don't say.
	Um, and that's just kind of the dynamic, I guess.
	And from there, our relationship kind of, uh, I don't know, lessened.
	Deteriorated, right?
	Yeah.
	Of course it did.
	And do you know why?
	Well, and it should have happened much sooner to your point.
	No.
	Why did your relationship with your sister deteriorate after the breakup?
	Cause I tried to put, tried to speak truth, like be honest, and then she didn't want to hear it.
	That's a nice way of saying you lied.
	Right?
	You lied!
	You had thoughts and feelings about this.
	I assume some exasperation, some impatience, some like... And she probably blamed him, didn't she?
	Yeah.
	Well, that's retarded.
	I mean, it's understandable.
	People do that all the time.
	But it's wrong.
	She chose to be in the relationship.
	She chose to ignore the advice of the people who cared about her the most.
	I mean, you may have heard this little Bible saying, you reap what you sow, right?
	Yep.
	Yep.
	So...
	I'm sure you weren't just like, oh, it's just tragic how this complete terrible thing happened out of nowhere.
	There must have been some impatience. I was always known and I used to have endless patience.
	No, you didn't have endless patience.
	You lied!
	Come on!
	Thou shalt not bear false witness.
	What does that mean?
	That means in matters that are important, I mean, in general, we should tell the truth, but certainly in matters that are important for a person's moral development, we should tell the truth, right?
	Yes.
	So, you had a moral lesson to impart to your sister, right?
	Yes.
	And you didn't, because she said, no, no, no, don't tell me!
	I mean, there's no asterisk on that commandment, thou shalt not bear false witness, unless it's your sister and she doesn't want you to.
	What did you want to say to your sister if she had listened and you could speak without blowback or repercussions?
	What did you want to say to your sister?
	But I told her so, and I wish she would have listened.
	What else?
	Maybe we can turn to your wife, shall we?
	She might have a few words about this.
	Hmm, um, I just...
	Because it cost you, right?
	It cost you that she's having these meltdowns while you're pregnant and you guys are trying to navigate.
	I mean, was this sister, was she aware that she was imposing on a new marriage where there were babies and sickness?
	Somewhat, but she just didn't care.
	Right.
	So she's selfish.
	Yeah, for sure.
	Okay, well, that's why he didn't marry her!
	Probably true.
	So she caused the not marrying.
	And then she's crying victim?
	She chose the guy.
	Okay, has anyone ever talked to her about her selfishness?
	And look, I'm not saying all she is is selfish.
	I'm just saying in this particular area.
	I mean did you ever at any point over the year, you've got a sick wife, you've got a
	pregnant wife, you're trying to navigate married life, and it's terrifying to have that kind
	of undiagnosed medical ailment, right?
	That's terrifying, because you don't know what the heck is going on.
	You don't know how on earth it might be solved, or whether.
	And at some point, don't you say to your sister, hello, there's somebody else in the world here called me.
	How about you ask me about how I'm doing?
	You know, it doesn't have to be all the time, but once in a while might be a good start.
	And maybe this is why the guy didn't want to marry you because you're kind of a self-absorbed and selfish.
	It's all I, Mimi, I. You don't ask me anything about how my life is going.
	That was a, yeah, I, I had some calls with her where she was, she just kept going on and on and I stopped her at some point, just I can't do this anymore.
	Okay, but that is saying that it's your issue or problem, to some degree, rather than your kind of a black hole of attention that never gets filled and is draining me dry, you vampire.
	Sorry, I'm not saying it like that, but something like that.
	I get your point, yeah.
	So why are you withholding moral correction from your sister?
	You say you're close, obviously you care about her, you love her.
	Why are you withholding honesty and moral correction from her?
	We've got to look out for each other, right?
	We all have our blind spots.
	Yeah.
	Because, I mean, it's not my sister, so I'm not in the same situation, but I've certainly had friends who absolutely are dating the wrong girl.
	They're absolutely dating the wrong girl.
	I say my case, and I say, listen, obviously I can't tell you what to do.
	Here's the red flags I see, and they go on like a Chinese communist parade.
	So here are all the red flags I see.
	You are obviously perfectly free to do whatever you want, date whoever you want.
	I'm just telling you, when it ends, I don't want to hear a thing.
	It will end, and it'll end badly.
	I know that.
	The price of you not listening to my good advice is I don't want to hear about it when it ends.
	Now, if I'm totally wrong, which I could be, then I'll be the first one to chip in for your wedding and I'll give you a great speech and I'll apologize publicly for doubting it.
	That'll be my punishment, I suppose, being publicly admitting I was wrong.
	But if it ends, no sympathy.
	Yeah.
	having tried to do that one time two or six months in or whatever it was in a year up to a year
	and then for not and continuing to to not listen um i think i just lost the will to be doing that more but that's not
	very christian of you my friend because you know i i'm not i'm not gonna lecture you guys
	with christianity last thing you'd want from me but i will say that whether it's christianity or
	philosophy withholding moral correction from those we love is an act of sabotage and it's
	actually quite selfish on your part Because y'all should have had a significant intervention.
	I have no idea how this crap lasted for a decade with a family around her who claims to care about her.
	Why on earth didn't somebody sit down with the two of them and say, okay, it's been 18 months or 16 months or 14 months or wherever.
	Where is this going?
	What is happening?
	This woman needs her twenties.
	If she wants to have kids, she can't just waste all of these years.
	What is happening?
	What is going on?
	I mean, I don't quite understand the family structure here.
	Where this woman, through whatever weird addiction she's got, loses a decade of her most precious fertile years.
	I'm sorry, I'm just having trouble understanding why the family wouldn't do something about this!
	Yeah, I think, so my dad was kind of non-existent with the relationship, which feeds a little bit why I think I... But you know that!
	You told me that at the very beginning, that's why you had to parent your sister, so why didn't you?
	Well, I don't think I fully realized what I was... I knew I had a close relationship, whether or not I thought I did, I should say.
	But I didn't realize what the relationship was at the time.
	It was only afterwards, I think, that I realized... Sorry, which relationship?
	Your sister?
	Yeah.
	To be, like, semi-fathering, if you want to call it that.
	Okay, that's fine.
	But in your twenties, you knew that she was wasting year after year with this guy.
	So why did that go on?
	There were multiple times where I tried to tell her... Yeah.
	Never saw much of him.
	There's no point telling her she's the addict, right?
	Yeah, so you sit down with him say listen man to man. Come on like stop it like marry her or or leave
	Never saw much that was part of the problem, too In different states for nine out of ten years, but oh no,
	no, no, no, please it Don't, don't, don't do that.
	Don't embarrass us all by saying there was a distance problem when you and I are talking across a country.
	And talking about some serious and deep things.
	Right?
	It's, it's not, and, and also if she, you would fly out if you care about her, right?
	Yeah, I mean, yeah.
	Because she was making terrible decisions for ten years.
	Now, how many daughters do you have?
	Two.
	Okay, so you know why I'm talking to you about this, right?
	It's not much to do with your sister because that's all in the past.
	Yeah.
	You're a father.
	Now, and as a father to a daughter myself, you have to watch out for bad guys.
	And this guy was a bad guy.
	You don't burn up ten years of a woman's young life and then go marry someone else right away.
	Like, that's just being a total asterisk question mark hashtag asterisk guy, right?
	Yeah.
	So how did he get away with it?
	He only did it because he knew the family wasn't going to lift a finger and sort it out.
	Yeah.
	And I've learned, um, so my wife's father, my father-in-law took a much more active approach to our dating than my dad did to his daughter.
	You know, I keep trying to give you some responsibility and who do you turn to?
	This is the third time now.
	Who do you turn to whenever I say, right, you or the family as a whole, right?
	There's lots of people in the family, lots of males, aunts, uncles, brothers, whoever, right?
	Lots of males.
	Who do you turn to?
	Who do you hold up as a human shield?
	Matt.
	I'm sorry?
	I'm not sure what you're saying.
	Well, I keep saying, right, why didn't you do this?
	And you say, well, my father was passive.
	And I say, well, Why did the family deal with this?
	And you say, well, my father didn't take... I'm not talking about your dad!
	And you already know this about your dad, that he's passive.
	So you can't blame passivity on your dad who you already know is passive because that's a bad thing and you've
	already identified it.
	If you know your dad's passive, then you know you have to be more active, right?
	All right.
	Yeah.
	So you can't blame your passivity on your dad when the first thing you told me about your dad was that he was passive and absent and you had to raise your sister.
	So do you know that about your dad?
	Yeah, I was... I can't say there's no lifeguard, but I expect the lifeguard to save the drowning kid.
	I can't say, well, there's no lifeguard at the beach, but I didn't go save the kid, because, hey, there's no lifeguard at the beach.
	It's like, well, if you know there's no lifeguard at the beach, shouldn't you go in and save the kid?
	So if your dad's passive, that means it's up to you!
	Yep.
	Or the other males, right?
	I don't know if you're the oldest, I don't know where you are in the birth order, but, or the other males.
	How many brothers does she have?
	Just me.
	Just you.
	Well, one other one.
	He's much younger, and, yeah.
	What I was trying to say is I've learned since then what I should have known then.
	My eyes have been opened what I should have done.
	And when did you get that revelation?
	Well, like I was saying, my father-in-law took a much more active approach to our relationship.
	And that was the first time I've seen that.
	And I want to model somewhat of that to my daughters.
	Right.
	And what's your relationship like with your sister now?
	Mostly surface level.
	And have you ever apologized to her?
	Um, I don't think so. No.
	I mean, do you regret not being more... Yeah.
	...or even remotely firm or decisive with regards to her losing a decade of her life?
	Yeah.
	Because you all just let it happen, right?
	Now again, she's an adult, I get all of that, but you know, we all have our weaknesses and clearly she was addicted to this guy in some manner and...
	Now, do you know why you didn't do it?
	And saying that your father is passive doesn't answer anything, because you saw your father's passivity.
	You already backfilled it by trying to half-raise your sister, so you already know about the passivity.
	So why didn't the family act to save her from herself?
	Um, it's probably fear of losing the relationship maybe with
	her.
	Right, because she's volatile, and if you try to stand up, like if you went to talk to this guy, and he broke up with her, she'd blow up at you, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So?
	I mean, you know there's a guy who got literally nailed to a cross to do the right thing, nobody's asking you to do that, just, you know, endure your sister's ill temper until her head clears, right?
	Yeah.
	So, in the family, that level of love where you can put up with a negative in order to achieve a positive, right?
	Like, you know this old meme, it's sort of between men and women, right?
	There's a meme which is like, the woman who's fat says to her friends, am I fat?
	No, you're beautiful, blah blah blah, right?
	And the guy says to his friends, am I fat?
	And the guys are like, hey man, I know five fat guys and you're four of them.
	Which is, you know, guys can be blunt with each other and say the things that need to be said.
	And for a lot of women, a lot of sort of female interactions, it tends to be a little bit more claustrophobic.
	Like you see all this positivity stuff and it doesn't matter how you look and it's like, well no, it does.
	It's kind of like a weird kind of sabotage thing that happens.
	So, in the family, is there not that dedication to say and do the right thing, and if people are upset, you know, you can sympathize, but that doesn't stop you?
	No.
	That was not present, really.
	Right.
	So, doesn't this mean that it's kind of tough for you to be the kind of leader in your current family?
	Because a leader has to make tough decisions, and a leader has to be blunt and honest.
	And not only if it upsets people, but especially when it upsets people.
	I mean, I say this as a guy who has occasionally upset a few people in the world by being blunt and honest, so maybe you guys too, but that's what it takes to be a leader, doesn't it?
	Yeah.
	And certainly that's what it takes for your wife to trust you.
	Yeah.
	So what's the barrier to that leadership, or if we don't want to say leadership, to that honesty and directness?
	And I say this with no criticism, you know, we all struggle with it, so I'm not trying to be any kind of superior here, but I'm just genuinely curious, in your case, because we all have our own different blocks, but in your case, what is the block to that kind of honesty and directness?
	Probably fear of losing relationships, whatever relationship it might be.
	And I think, I don't know.
	And where does that come from?
	It can't come from your sister.
	Because you're older, right?
	And it has to come from some other template.
	Is that why your father's so cucked?
	Is that why he's so flaccid?
	Because he's afraid of your mum dumping him or something like that?
	He's not been able to.
	They have their marriage issues.
	And she won't let them go.
	If you could do me a favor, you have this, they have their, it's like this staccato thing,
	and it sounds like you're wrestling with some demon in your throat or something like that.
	I feel like there's a huge amount of self-censorship going on, which just makes the conversation kind of slow and a little spacey.
	So if you could just try and push through that and just communicate directly, that would be excellent.
	Please.
	Yeah, I'm just thinking through it more, but um...
	No, no, don't, don't, because thinking through it is a way of not communicating.
	You're sort of trying to pick your words and be diplomatic and this is a time for directness, right?
	So I don't need you to be diplomatic or hesitant or what if this is wrong or like just you just need to speak from the heart, right?
	Because otherwise it just feels very censorious and I have to try and puzzle out what's in the spaces between the words.
	So why do you fear losing relationships if you tell the truth?
	Where does that come from?
	It's not natural, we're not born that way, right?
	We're only, sorry to interrupt right after you're back, but you understand we're all born with the absolute need to make other people incredibly uncomfortable in order to survive, right?
	I don't have to tell you guys this, you have 14,000 babies under the age of two months if I remember my math correctly.
	So babies cry and they scream and they, you know, wail and gnash their teeth and so on, so that you can help them, right?
	So we all, our foundational relationships are based on survival through discomfort, right?
	So we start off with this template of, yes, you absolutely have to cause discomfort in order to survive.
	So that has to change, if that makes, like that has to be reversed, and that's not a peaceful reversal.
	That's usually a threatened reversal.
	If that makes sense.
	So, just so you know, we're starting from the template of, you tell the truth, though the skies fall.
	You tell the truth and shame the devil.
	You tell the truth and it doesn't matter if it's uncomfortable to other people.
	But you have to tell the truth, because if you don't tell the truth, there is no relationship!
	It's a pretend relationship, it's a pseudo-relationship.
	But you can't have a relationship without the truth.
	So, somewhere, the principle of be direct and honest, which babies and toddlers have, was reversed.
	And I guess that's my question, is how did that happen?
	I think it gets back to your question of our family.
	Well, my family never had that.
	There wasn't that level of directness.
	Yeah.
	Now, again, I hate to be a nag, but I'm going to, because I'm just talking about the virtue of directness.
	What you said is not true.
	So, it's not that your family did not have that directness.
	It's not that your family did not have that directness.
	It had to be, in order to reverse the directness of infancy and toddlerhood into this mishmash of avoidance and self-erasure.
	There has to be massive pressure and threats applied.
	So, it's not that they didn't have it, it's that it was actively attacked and punished and threatened.
	It had to be that, because how on earth could you reverse it from the directness of infancy and toddlerhood into this spacey avoidance that has to be the result of, well, it didn't just fade away.
	You know, it's like a hugely broken arm.
	It didn't just happen, something had to break it.
	So what happened to punish honesty and directness?
	How was it threatened and punished?
	I don't know, but I guess a couple things that come to mind is
	my mom would not listen to my dad when he would try to lead.
	What would you say to a person who would not listen to their dad?
	What we're doing is we're trying to get the right people to do the right thing.
	Whenever someone would try to assert themselves, I guess whoever it might be, it would shut down.
	And I don't really know what the cause.
	There was a weird one time we were on, I think it was the first vacation I ever went on with you guys, right after we got married with your whole family.
	And they were like, what should we do today?
	And I said what I wanted to do that day.
	And they all got upset that I was ruling what we did that day by stating what I wanted and that that wasn't fair and that we were supposed to all kind of skirt around the issues until we could figure out subliminally what people wanted to do.
	That's a good example, yeah.
	That's great.
	That's a great description.
	It's like these psychic mosquitoes need to pass between everyone and coalesce into some kind of plan.
	So that's fascinating.
	That's how my family works, yeah.
	Well, it doesn't work, obviously, right?
	Yeah, I know.
	So that's fascinating.
	So this is to your wife, right?
	So his family says to you, What do you want to do?
	And you, crazy fool that you are, think that they're actually asking you what you want to do.
	Because you come from a more direct family, right?
	Yes.
	So, what do you want to do?
	Oh, okay, so they must know what I want to do.
	I want to go to the beach!
	And then they're like, oh!
	Which is weird, right?
	Well, they were like, why are you making us go to the beach?
	No, did they literally say, why are you making us go to the beach?
	It was basically like that.
	Because it's almost like by saying something there, they feel forced to do it.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So where does that come from?
	Who does that come from?
	I don't, I don't know.
	Um, yeah, that was because he was transplanted many States away while we were dating.
	He saw me with my family all the time.
	And I didn't really see him with his family much.
	Wow.
	Excuse make much?
	That's a good one.
	Well, I just couldn't really, because I hadn't seen, you had seen him with his family because you'd seen him and he's an effect of his family.
	So his personality had to have been formed by them.
	So you met them before you met them by through him and his behavior.
	Right.
	He must have been over solicitous with you, right?
	What do you want to do?
	I don't know, what do you want to- like, it must have been that sort of stuff.
	Like, he kind of just- he kind of been super assertive from that kind of family, and then it just vanished, and then vanished again.
	That's true.
	Okay, so- I probably just told him to figure out what he wanted and do that.
	Hm?
	Sorry, I don't know what you mean.
	Er.
	So how did you see your husband when you were dating before you met his family?
	How did you see the effects of this bizarre though, though not uncommon family structure?
	Camping.
	Well, no, I, the camping trip with her while we were dating.
	With who?
	While we were dating, we did a camping trip with his sister.
	And so that was the first family member of his I met.
	Sorry, I thought she was camping on this guy's lawn.
	Okay, so she went to a different kind of camping.
	Sorry, just kidding.
	Go on.
	Yeah.
	And we were driving home after the weekend camping trip.
	And I was like, oh, I thought that went well.
	Apparently he looked at me horrified and said that it went terribly and that she couldn't stand me.
	What?
	Interesting.
	Okay.
	Go on.
	Um, and I, it was, it was, it was very bizarre because I thought it was fine.
	I thought she was like, not particularly friendly and like, I didn't really like her.
	But I thought that, considering the very low opinion I had of her, that it went fine.
	Because I thought that the ten-year relationship thing was insane.
	But it wasn't ten years at that point, was it?
	Well, it was like eight years or something at that point.
	Okay, so you turned to your wife... No, was she your wife yet?
	No, we were dating.
	Dating, okay.
	And how long into the relationship?
	Six months.
	Five months?
	Six months?
	So, I mean, obviously, how long were you guys dating before you got married?
	Like, 12 months?
	13 months?
	You know, it's so nice to hear a sane answer.
	I gotta tell you, you know, these shows run the gamut, and either it's like, 72 hours, or 12 years!
	It's nice to hear a sane answer, like a year seems about right.
	So this is your husband.
	You go camping with your sister.
	How did you know your sister hated your... She wasn't your fiancé yet, though I assume that was coming pretty quickly.
	No.
	Yeah.
	But you knew... Did you have the idea that you wanted to marry her?
	So at that point, we were... At that point, definitely liked her and couldn't see her as the one, but I don't think I decided at that point.
	But you could see it, right?
	Yes, yep.
	It was on the path towards it, yes.
	Okay, so, I mean, had you fallen in love?
	Had you said the I love you kind of stuff?
	No.
	Not at that point.
	Okay.
	But it's serious enough that you're going camping with a family member, right?
	Yeah.
	And this was the first family member?
	Yeah, beginning of the year.
	This is the first family member that she'd met, is that right?
	Yes.
	You met my parents before me.
	Maybe not.
	I don't think so.
	I don't think you met your parents until, like, seven or eight months in?
	Oh, no, that's wrong.
	I'm really wrong.
	I forgot about that.
	We did do a trip.
	It was like two months into dating up to where he's from.
	And I did stay with his parents and him that weekend before we flew back.
	It was a couple months later that we went camping with my sister, I think.
	Okay, let's just go to the camping thing, because I think that's really fascinating.
	I mean, it's all really fascinating.
	I don't mean to divide it into interesting and not.
	It's all really fascinating.
	Okay, so five months in, obviously you care about her because she's met your family and she's now going camping with your sister.
	So this is to the husband.
	Why?
	I'm just going to call you guys Bob and Alice, because the husband all sounds too abstract, if that's all right.
	Okay, so to Bob, Why did you think that your sister hated Alice?
	I think it was afterwards she had told me.
	I'm trying to remember now because I don't.
	Well, you and her, I think you and her went off on some long walk the last night of the weekend camping trip.
	Okay.
	And I think, and I didn't think too much of it.
	I don't know.
	Apparently it was her spilling.
	Well, all the reasons that she didn't like me and thought... Hey, so sorry, Bob.
	Why is it hard?
	You were actually in that conversation.
	Why is it hard to answer this question?
	What did your sister say?
	What did she say that she disliked?
	What did she say that she disliked about my wife?
	Good scolding tactic.
	We're only talking about one person here.
	So go ahead.
	So you don't have to give me all the details if it's really unpleasant or whatever, and obviously not true because you're married and happy.
	But I think I think she was surprised by it.
	She didn't like the directness, number one, but interesting given what we talked about earlier, right?
	But she didn't like the directness.
	She felt that she wasn't being included.
	Even though... She wasn't being what?
	She didn't feel she was being included because she had to take a work call.
	My wife and I, at the time, girlfriend, we walked around the lake, I think it was, and then we came back too late for her.
	So she got upset at that point because we were not including her.
	Something dumb like that.
	Oh my god.
	How old was your sister at this point?
	24.
	You're 27.
	No, she would have just turned 25.
	Oh, so she'd been in this relationship with this guy at this point since she was 18?
	Yeah.
	Okay, what is... that's so bizarre.
	She's on a work call, you walk around the lake, and you come back a little too late for her tastes.
	And when your sister said, I don't like your girlfriend because you walked around the lake, I know there was obviously other stuff too, what did you say?
	I don't remember.
	Okay, what did you think about that as a criticism of?
	Yeah, I thought it was unreasonable and I think I told her something to the effect of, we didn't know when you were going to be done, so we just kept walking around.
	We were waiting to get a call from you.
	Oh, so you tried to defend the details.
	Yeah.
	As opposed to saying, you know, this is why the guy won't marry you, right?
	This crazy neediness or, like, this is nuts.
	Right.
	You took a work call.
	We could say, well, you excluded us.
	No.
	You took a work call.
	We walked around the lake.
	I don't care when we came back.
	It's completely irrelevant.
	Yeah, that's true.
	So why did you go to your girlfriend and say, my sister hates you?
	Well, I don't think he said it that way at the time.
	Okay.
	We can massage it however we want, but that's what I was told was transmitted.
	Now again, we can say, oh, my sister has some issues or whatever.
	So you expressed your sister's dislike of Alice.
	Is that right, Bob?
	To Alice.
	I think so.
	Or I said, like, she didn't have a good time.
	I don't know.
	Something like that.
	Okay.
	Alice, you remember this because women are sticky vaults with this kind of stuff, right?
	So what did he say?
	If I am remembering it rightly, it was something like, that's not how she felt about it.
	Okay.
	Now, what was your impression?
	It went pretty well.
	I'm sorry, so you said you thought you had a good time, and the reason you said that is your family's direct.
	Right?
	Yes.
	So if she didn't say she had a problem with you, then you'd assume that there's no problem because your family's more direct.
	So, she complains about Alice to Bob, and then Bob, you go to Alice and say, in response to your sister saying, I had a good time, or think that pretty well, saying, no, she doesn't like you.
	Or something like that, right?
	I think he said she doesn't feel the same way.
	Yeah.
	So he wasn't even direct about that.
	I'm sorry, what did you say?
	He wasn't even direct about that.
	That's true, yes.
	So when you said that, what was your sort of thought or feeling about the conflict between
	your sister and your girlfriend?
	Or to put it another way, who was in the wrong?
	Who was in the wrong?
	So my sister, or I'm not sure what you're asking, I guess I'm confused.
	Okay.
	So when you're saying my sister doesn't like you, who was, who was wrong?
	Was your sister right to not like your girlfriend?
	Oh no.
	Yeah.
	My sister was wrong.
	Okay.
	So Alice, did he communicate that my sister doesn't like you for completely insane reasons?
	I can't believe it.
	She's totally in the wrong.
	No.
	OK, so why not?
	Again, I'm telling you, Bob, I'm not trying to pick on you, because don't worry, we'll get to Alice, right?
	But I'm just trying to point out that the sparing false witness is you're lying.
	And I'm not saying you're some big liar, but in terms of it's false.
	If you think your sister's crazy, For the criticism she has of Alice, and then you tell Alice, your sister doesn't like her, and don't take Alice's side, and disavow your sister's crazy problems, then you have a loyalty to Alice at the expense of your sister, that you genuinely believe, but you're not saying to Alice.
	Yeah.
	I don't know why.
	I mean, I'm sorry to just keep harping on the faith.
	See, get it?
	Faith and harp?
	Anyway.
	And Ireland, come to think of it.
	But this is honesty, isn't it?
	This is, I mean, whether you say it's just be honest or thou shall not bear false witness, isn't this... Yeah, it's being forthright and truthful, yeah.
	Right.
	So if you say, and listen, I don't want to speak for Alice here, but for women, It's kind of a big deal if his sister, who he's very close to, doesn't like you, right?
	Yes.
	Except that I already didn't like her.
	I get that.
	It's also a big deal that you didn't like her.
	Yes, it is.
	Because you're marrying into this family, and your husband says, I'm super close to my sister, and you don't like each other.
	This is very obvious when you say it that way.
	But it wasn't at the time?
	It was in some ways, but not to the extent once you've lived it.
	Well, and it certainly did turn out to be a big problem when you had babies and sickness and a pathologically needy codependent sister leading in your ear like Iago every night.
	Yeah.
	So, it kind of did turn out.
	We almost did break up right after getting engaged over his sister.
	Well, so that's what I'm trying to sort of figure out, because this is a very big deal.
	This is a very big deal, because when two women – this can happen with men too – but when two women are facing each other as enemies, right, then you, Bob, as the man, are caught in the middle, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, which side was right?
	My wife, which is why I married her because she said, Oh, we almost broke up.
	No, no, no!
	It's not enough to marry her!
	Right.
	What should you have done?
	I should have silenced my sister more.
	That's what I was getting to, is that before, it was after the engagement, before the wedding, I think?
	My sister then said additional things that she didn't like about my fiancé at the time, and I then stopped talking to my sister.
	I don't know if I said it... I'm trying to remember the conversation with her, but at that point, I didn't... I said I disagree, and then I went forward with getting engaged and... I forget the sequence there, but...
	And that made her all the more upset that I chose to ignore her feelings over the matter.
	You chose to ignore her feelings, and she's insulting the woman you love and want to marry.
	But apparently her feelings are all that matter.
	Oh, she's toxic!
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so then you stopped talking to her for some period of time?
	No, then it came.
	That's the problem.
	That's when it came.
	So I stopped talking to her until getting married then.
	It's like, okay, I've heard your opinion, but I disagree, so I'm just gonna get married, but then— Okay, so everything— Sorry, Bob, everything there is false.
	Except for the getting married part.
	Everything there is false.
	Your sister did not put this forward as an opinion, did she?
	What do you mean?
	Well, an opinion is something that is subjective, right?
	As opposed to a fact, right?
	Okay, yeah.
	I'm sure she probably presented it as, like, a fact.
	Yeah, yeah.
	She is this way.
	She's insensitive.
	She doesn't do this.
	She walked around the lake and she's... So, when you say that's your opinion, that's not the case, because it wasn't her opinion.
	It was a fact for her, right?
	Or a series of facts.
	And a series of pretty damning facts, right?
	She was condemning the personality of the woman you love, right?
	And the character and the morals of the woman you love, right?
	Okay, so it was not an opinion, it was an absolute fact and condemnation and judgment, right?
	Yeah.
	And it was not the case that you disagree.
	You know, if somebody says to me, I don't know, Paul McCartney is a better singer than Freddie Mercury, right?
	It's like, well, yeah, I disagree.
	This is just an opinion, right?
	But if somebody says, two and two make five, I don't just disagree with them, they're wrong.
	Yep, she's wrong, yes.
	I did not say that, though, but you're right.
	So, no, no, no, but this is important because this is about loyalty.
	This is about loyalty.
	Yeah.
	Anyone who condemns the woman you love... Oof.
	I mean, I have to say this from my own personal experience.
	I had a very close family member say to me that he wasn't going to bother to get to know my wife because we were just going to get divorced anyway.
	And I didn't even debate.
	Oh, I disagree.
	Like, sorry, I don't mean to mock you, but it's like, no, it's just like, you're done.
	Like, we're done.
	Don't you step between my heart and its objects, right?
	And what I love and what I treasure.
	If you don't see the immense beauty that is my bride-to-be, we have nothing in common, and I want to have nothing to do with it.
	So, you are way too diplomatic.
	And not decisive enough, right?
	And there is, I think, a certain amount of dishonesty in that, right?
	It must have been pretty appalling for you for your sister to condemn the morals and
	character of the woman you love.
	So, when your sister says that, how long before the wedding did she say that?
	I don't remember. Um. They were.
	Because probably within a few weeks.
	So a few weeks before the wedding, she's kind of trashing your bride-to-be?
	Yeah.
	So why would she be at the wedding, which is a celebration of love, with a woman who hates the bride?
	And not just hates her, but judges her morally as bad in terrible ways, right?
	Significant ways.
	I knew at the time I shouldn't have done it, but I changed the wedding date for her.
	Oh, my gosh.
	Are you kidding me?
	I wish I was.
	I wonder if this is maybe help.
	I don't know how this is helpful, but it's going on.
	It's almost family structure.
	Yeah.
	Well, maybe just connect this back to the Taco Bell story, right?
	It's almost a similar thing where I didn't do what Was right, and I should have done for my wife, for us, but then she ends up, like, not giving in, but, I don't know, giving, I guess, for lack of a better term, giving in at least marginally.
	Well, do you remember how I said I was going to turn like a rabbit dog on Alice?
	Hold up that pentagon, sister, it's coming.
	I'm not ready.
	There's some connection there.
	You've had 19 babies in three weeks.
	You can handle it.
	All right.
	Alice, my good friend.
	Are you ready?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	This absolute wretch of a sister who won't take even the slightest criticism of her own relationship is perfectly happy to trash an engagement.
	I mean, you understand the hypocrisy here is demonic, almost.
	Yeah.
	She later called our wedding the worst day of her life.
	Oh my gosh, you guys.
	I'm trying not to have an end.
	I'm just massaging my temple here to try and clear the aneurysm.
	We both feel it gathering.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, no, don't tell me anymore.
	Let me get rid of this bulge first.
	Okay, go ahead.
	We both come from very messed up families, just in different ways.
	No, no, I'm focusing on Alice now.
	You've had your turn.
	I'll stop talking, maybe.
	I'll stop talking.
	Go ahead.
	When you said the divided loyalties thing, and that I married somebody who wasn't loyal, I was like, holy crap, my mom did that.
	Oh, okay.
	Well, yeah, nice way to distract me with your childhood, and we'll get to that in a sec.
	Let's focus on the chomp chomp first.
	Okay.
	So.
	Bob is not honest and direct, and Alice, neither are you, in some areas.
	So, when your sister squared off against you, you knew it was a big deal, right?
	This is the sibling he claimed to be closest to?
	Yes.
	I knew, I knew it was a big deal.
	This is a big deal, right?
	Did you say to him, this is a very big deal.
	This is going to be a big issue.
	We're going to have to figure this one out.
	I think I basically said that.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And Bob, what do you remember of that?
	You said that first, before we got married, that was when we almost broke up.
	And then I'm sure you said it afterwards, but multiple times, probably.
	Okay.
	Sorry, so this is a big deal.
	You've got this woman who dislikes you for, it sounds like, pretty petty and terrible reasons, and who herself cannot manage any kind of relationship, and god help the planet, is now a therapist, but... Right.
	You moved the wedding!
	And you did not demand that your husband take your side no matter what.
	And what does the Bible say?
	A man and his wife, a husband and a wife become what?
	Flesh.
	One flesh.
	If you have a problem with my wife, you have a problem with me.
	Not just like, well, I disagree with your opinion.
	If you hate her, you hate me because we're one flesh.
	Yeah.
	I mean, my dad did say that stuff to you about, about your sister.
	What did he say?
	When it got big, it like kind of was blowing up.
	I think, I don't know if it was right before we got engaged or after and before I was talking about it with my parents and some with, with my husband, uh, Bob and My dad met with him and told him that he had to do something about the thing, or he didn't support us getting married.
	Okay.
	And?
	Was that when you stopped talking to her for a time?
	I don't remember now.
	What was the first year?
	Um, what happened after?
	It was before engagement.
	Because then we met together after that and I was prepared to break it off.
	Even though, yeah, I think we were like half an hour from engagement almost at that point, but then we didn't.
	And I don't remember why.
	At some point things not got better, but like, Somehow you got more okay with it, but probably just looked past it or something, because at some point then you communicated to your dad that it was okay or something, because then he then told me, okay, you have my blessing again.
	But it wasn't resolved.
	Maybe I did stop.
	Wait, so, sorry, your father-in-law, Bob, your father-in-law gave a big speech about this has to be resolved.
	It wasn't resolved and he just went ahead with everything anyway?
	Nope.
	I'm assuming there must have been some type of, I won't let her come between us and what she said was wrong.
	Yeah.
	I think I sided with some, I said, I said, or did some things to make you feel assured.
	And then you shared that with your dad.
	Sorry.
	I didn't quite follow that.
	My apologies.
	See, I must have said something to my wife now about, like, she's wrong.
	I decided, like, I want to marry you.
	Not to say I want to marry you, but, like, we weren't engaged then.
	Somehow I assured her that it would not happen again.
	My loyalties were with her.
	And that got her comfortable enough, somehow.
	Yeah, I think we're both fuzzy on the details there.
	Yeah.
	And I, like, truly cannot remember how that... It must not have really gotten resolved, because I don't remember.
	No.
	It wouldn't have been, because then it came up, yeah, after.
	Okay, so Bob, what did your family think about your sister and all of this stuff?
	I'm trying to remember now.
	Did they know?
	They were supportive of us.
	They didn't spend a lot of time with my wife before we got married because they'd be at different states, but they were supportive.
	I don't know how much they knew.
	Do you remember at all?
	About you?
	I don't think they, like, liked me because of my personality.
	They didn't, like, dislike me at the time.
	In the dating, early marriage phase.
	I assume that the sister would have vented her dislike of you, Alice, to the family, to Bob's family.
	Oh, I like in the dating early marriage phase. That's his parents like didn't like I assume sorry to I assume I
	assume that the sister Would have vented her dislike of you Alice to the family to
	Bob's family because their family, right?
	Yeah, probably but my sister was also a little bit not a strange. That's a little bit too strong
	Definitely strange for my mom at the time.
	And still is.
	And still is, yeah.
	Somewhat, I don't know, close is the right word with my dad, but like, so I don't, I don't know how much she would have shared, but to your point, she probably did share something.
	Just not sure.
	I feel like she would have shared a fairly significant amount with your dad.
	I would imagine, yeah.
	I never because he does he kind of does the the like nods along to the feelings until
	And then says something else to someone else later. Yeah Um, but I never heard anything I don't think from them
	about So they never said look, uh, you've got a conflict between
	your fiance and your sisters So we need to sit down and work this stuff out.
	Right.
	And I, I don't think so.
	And I think that the part of the problems of the family I grew up with now that I carry in now, I guess.
	Okay.
	So we didn't work through conflicts.
	Yeah.
	We didn't really work through conflicts.
	We, my dad would try to as a family, but.
	We just never worked and we weren't able to, there's a lot of interpersonal conflicts between different members of the family and just, we learned to all not learn to get along with fake relationships.
	Is that a fair way?
	Yeah, probably.
	This is a lot of words, so you laugh!
	And we both do it with both of our families.
	There is a lot of directness in some ways, but then not in some of the most fundamental ways.
	Okay, so in what is there directness?
	And we both do it with both of our families.
	Oh sorry, I thought Alice, I thought your family was more, oh just in different ways?
	Yeah, there is a lot of directness in some ways, but then not in some of the most fundamental ways.
	Okay, so in what is there directness? And I don't count the sister
	crabbing about you as directness.
	I just view that as discontented sabotage.
	Yeah.
	So where is the directness showing up?
	From?
	You said the family to direct in some ways and indirect in others, and I'm not doubting you, of course, I just want to know where does the directness show up?
	Well, my family's directness showed up in how my dad like actually sat my husband down when we were Just before engagement with the sister didn't matter.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	I think that's because my side, which is a lot more direct is not fundamentally honest.
	And what are they not honest about?
	Oh boy.
	Where do you even start with that?
	Well, I was going to make a general comment, I guess.
	I think that does, there's the like boldness and directness up front, but then it's not like carried through.
	Which is kind of the same way of saying it's not honest.
	Oh, so it's like some sort of honesty, but without any consequences.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	That's a good way.
	No follow through.
	It doesn't really mean anything.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Like there were issues, significant issues in my family, my parents' marriage when I was a child, and it came to a head when I was like 13.
	And at that point, my dad decided to go no contact with his family.
	Sorry, which family?
	His parents and siblings.
	Ah, and do you know why he did that?
	Because his whole family, like his immediate family, was like splitting apart at the time.
	That doesn't really answer anything, because I don't really know what any of that means.
	So many rabbit trails.
	Important stuff.
	Let me see if I can just sort of make it a bit...
	A bit clearer.
	So, from what you know of your dad's conflict with his family, did you agree with his decision to go no contact?
	I did agree with it, but I was extremely upset in how it happened.
	And like, I felt like it should have been done far, far sooner.
	And what were the major issues?
	Was it about dishonesty?
	Was it about abuse?
	Was it about neglect?
	Was it about lack of loyalty?
	What was the major issue or issues that your father had with his parents?
	They didn't like my mom.
	Sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but you see the pattern.
	Yeah, I saw that like half an hour ago.
	Oh, I know, you mentioned it.
	I'm not trying to claim any prize here for restating what you said about half an hour ago.
	So, yeah, okay, so the pattern is clear.
	But your father did cut off his parents because they disapproved of your mother, right?
	Only once it went past him and her.
	I had gone on a sleepover with my grandparents, which we used to do occasionally.
	They'd pick a grandkid, take you out to dinner, and then you could go shopping and buy some clothes and then spend the night and have a leisurely breakfast and go home.
	It was usually kind of like a nice time.
	My grandmother, my dad's mother used that time to explain to me all of the ways in which my mother was a terrible mother and did not love me or my father.
	Oh my gosh.
	That's absolutely appalling.
	That's absolutely appalling.
	Okay.
	And my mother was the more emotionally distant of my parents and Uh, she, she and I are the opposite.
	I'm much more like my dad and not like her.
	Like we don't really get each other on a wavelength like she does with my sister.
	So we always had more conflict between us.
	Right.
	And this was the grandmother that I like felt an identity with and like, so like, I like, Believed her on a lot of things.
	And then my parents like never really addressed it with me.
	So you believed her about how bad your mother was?
	Because in some ways, you're right.
	Right.
	Like my mother isn't perfect.
	Not even close.
	It's kind of come up since then at different times where I can see it.
	She maybe tries to care about my wife, but there's a lot of selfishness there, I think.
	So there's some elements of truth, but it's not something you tell your granddaughter, of course.
	Yes, of course.
	But it's believable, if that makes sense.
	Right.
	It's easy for my wife to believe.
	Well, and it is absolutely.
	How old were you when your grandmother was telling you all this terrible stuff?
	Thirteen.
	Oh my gosh.
	I mean, that's just poison, right?
	That's just pure poison.
	And it wrecked her next three years, like massive depression.
	Um, yeah.
	And my parents were like, well, since our daughter is a disaster now, um, and we think you did it.
	So my mom, you know, was like, if you don't do something about them, then I'm, you know, I don't know.
	I don't think she ever threatened to leave, but, uh, your mother to your dad.
	Yeah.
	Gosh, oh gosh, I'm so sorry, that's just wretched.
	Well, and this is the lack of decisiveness, right?
	How did your parents know, or when did your parents find out that their parents were poisoning you?
	Well, it was because I treated my mom differently after that.
	And so, mom Like wanted to pry into it because it hurt her feelings that I wasn't being nice to her, like I was short with her, was being disrespectful to her.
	So you were acting out your grandmother's dislike of your mother against your mother and your parents sort of figured this out, like sort of reverse engineered it?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And you were 13, so I assume that this had been going on for years, or did it only start at 13?
	My grandmother always favored me over my siblings.
	I was the oldest grandchild, and I was the most... personality-wise, I mean, it's kind of horrifying to think about that I was the most likely.
	And there was a lot of favoritism.
	So, like, my two younger siblings would often, like, she would bring me a present and not them.
	Well, and of course that is also sabotage, right?
	Yeah.
	And there would be a reason because, like, well, she's had an illness and you guys don't.
	Right.
	But still, I mean, it's just, it's pointless, right?
	I mean, it just doesn't work.
	It's just terrible.
	And it causes a lot of conflict within the family.
	And then they get to leave with a bunch of discontented, upset kids and sort of roll back to their lair.
	Okay.
	And my dad's sibling lived down the street with their several kids about our ages and they would be at their house and we'd see their car there all the time.
	And they would visit us like two or three times a year.
	Oh God.
	And they'd be at my cousin's like three times a week.
	Sorry, who would be?
	My grandparents.
	They would visit you?
	You mean you when you were a kid?
	No, they would visit my cousin's, my dad's sister's kids three times a week or so.
	And they would stop at our house down the street, you know, like twice a year.
	Right.
	Okay.
	My dad was always the least favorite kid, for sure.
	Well, I mean, he obviously had the most capacity to tell the truth because he didn't end up calling them out and then split, right?
	And so how old were you when he split with his parents?
	I would have been 13.
	Okay.
	And when your grandmother, over the years, had said all these terrible things about your mother, right?
	Yes.
	Right.
	Not to me as much over the years.
	It was mostly at that one sleepover.
	Okay.
	But she definitely did all that poison, right?
	But she was complaining in my dad's ear about my mother since the beginning.
	Right.
	So in the same way that Bob's sister is complaining about you and you all have trouble with the toxic femininity, right?
	Yeah.
	Exactly.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	So, why did you move the wedding date?
	Why?
	And I know this sounds like I'm, like, yelling at you, like, why?
	I mean, but why?
	I mean, she's a horrible person, she's making everybody's, well, she's making your life difficult, she doesn't like it, and she can't honestly say, right, you know, this is the big question, and this is where, you know, y'all are Christians, which is lovely in many ways, but I don't think you got the, if anybody knows any reason why this marriage should not continue, speak now or what?
	Forever hold your peace.
	Shut up!
	Forever hold your peace.
	There's a reason for that.
	It doesn't come out of nowhere.
	It's so people don't poison a marriage with children in it.
	Yeah.
	Because my parents' marriage was a nightmare for my entire childhood, and a lot of it was due to poisoning.
	Well, no.
	Sorry to be annoying and correct you about your own family, but it's not.
	It's not.
	Because your dad chose to have that in his life.
	No, it's not the parents.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I mean, I don't mean to quote our good buddy Jay, but he says, I have come to set mother against father, brother against sister, which means that when you do the right thing, a lot of times your family will hit the roof.
	It's right there.
	Jesus says it.
	That says if you do the right thing, your family's going to have meltdowns on a regular basis.
	That's, I don't want to jump us too far, but that's kind of what we're dealing with now with various members of both families.
	Yeah.
	No, but let's get back.
	We'll get there.
	We'll get there.
	So let's get back to the sister and the wedding, right?
	Sorry.
	I moved it.
	Sorry.
	No, but did you want her at your wedding?
	No, I didn't want her there.
	Okay.
	So why wasn't that just a condition of getting married?
	This woman doesn't like me.
	She trash talks me.
	She says I shouldn't get married.
	I don't want her at my wedding.
	That's a reasonable thing to say, isn't it?
	Yes.
	I don't think Jason would have... Yeah, I don't think my husband would have married me if I had made that condition.
	Really?
	And I wanted to get married.
	So, this is to Bob.
	Is that true?
	You would have chosen a toxic, dysfunctional sister over the woman you love?
	I don't mean to sound appalled, I'm a little surprised, so I'm certainly happy to hear the case, but this is a woman who can't...
	Couldn't run a popsicle stand, and can't run her marriage, and is negative, and gets mad at you guys for taking a walk around the lake, and trashes the woman you love, and... My God, like, help me understand!
	You wouldn't have married her if your sister couldn't come to the wedding?
	I'm trying... I'm trying to put myself... I was able to tell my sister, no, like, I'm going forward with this, no matter what you say, but then if... if the condition, or the boundary would have been put in place by Again, I don't know where your Christianity is, but the boundary's not put in place by your wife!
	Who puts the boundary in?
	It should have been me.
	No!
	Who puts the boundary in?
	Where does... Don't have people who oppose the marriage at the marriage.
	Who puts that in?
	Who puts that in as a requirement for marriage, for getting married?
	Exactly.
	God says, this is a celebration of love.
	Thou shalt not bear false witness means that your sister would have to say, I know of a reason why this marriage shouldn't continue.
	The wife is horrible, and here's why, and like it would have been a complete disaster, right?
	Yep.
	So, there's a reason why, and it's not coming from you, it should come from your faith.
	Yeah, and I think It's the
	It's the hypocrisy maybe of we're going to be you
	The hypocrisy of, I was believing that it wouldn't be loving to do that, but that's obviously wrong.
	It wouldn't be loving to do that.
	I don't know where, is there, thou shalt not bear false witness and don't have people at your wedding who hate your wife and think she's immoral and selfish and mean or whatever other things she said.
	Loving is telling the truth.
	Loving is serving God.
	Loving is serving virtue.
	Loving is keeping the Ten Commandments.
	You must love God and virtue, not crazy dysfunctional sisters who are trying to sabotage your life!
	That's why I'm ashamed to think about that now, back then, because that's essentially what I grew up with and what I believed at the time.
	And it was messed up, and it contributed to some problems.
	Okay, so what came between you and God?
	Because you have to know what the shadow is, right?
	She said that your marriage was the worst day of her life.
	Now, I've heard some ugly stuff over doing these calls for, I don't know, coming on for 20 years now, right?
	So, I've heard some ugly stuff.
	I've got to tell you, that's probably in the top five.
	Of ugly, ugly, ugly things that I've heard.
	And I've gone to some pretty seriously deep caves, and this is like 14 layers below that.
	Yeah.
	So, the level of vitriol and hatred and contempt and ugliness there, it's off the charts, right?
	Yeah, totally agree.
	So, what came between you and your faith?
	What is eclipsing you and your faith?
	There's something, and this is virtue, right?
	At the time, I think it was family.
	Yeah, I think it was family.
	Okay, so how is your family coming between you and God?
	They raised you a Christian, right?
	Yeah, I don't, that's the piece I don't know what the answer, I just think it was, right, clearly it's family that's coming between me and God, but why?
	Okay, so you know that the biggest devil is the desire for appearance, right?
	Yeah.
	To have the appearance of virtue rather than actually being virtuous is the biggest temptation, right?
	I mean, the devil literally offers you the appearance of success when he takes your soul, right?
	I'll make you famous, beautiful, rich, popular, successful, talented, and everybody envies you, and they think you've got it made, and then you lose your soul, right?
	And of course, I'm not saying this is a direct reference, I'm just talking about a general principle, right?
	So, the appearance, right?
	The appearance.
	Right?
	Jesus obviously looked like he was losing everything, but he gained most of the world, right?
	So, the appearance.
	Is it the focus that, well, we don't want to have the appearance of conflict or problems?
	Yeah, that's how I was...
	Getting back to your question on the culture of families, that's how I was raised, and that's the mindset I had, I think, was appearance, and like, family must stick together.
	It's a phrase my mom always says, like, why can't we just fix our problems in our family?
	Well, there's lots of big issues, but... Family must stick together?
	Okay, so let's say that that's a principle that you and your father agree on, that family must stick together, right?
	Okay, so what do you do with people who are attacking the family?
	Cause I mean, the grandmother, right?
	I'm sorry, that was on the other side.
	But no, so with the sister, right?
	So what do you do with the sister?
	She's attacking, family must stick together.
	Okay, well, she's attacking you.
	So what, you then just suppress and say that?
	Because this is just, it's just fueling the bullying.
	Why is your sister the way she is?
	Well, in part because your family supports it.
	Because she holds your reputation hostage.
	It could be an ugly scene at the wedding.
	She could be difficult.
	She might make things unpleasant.
	She might spill the beans.
	She might say things that are... Right?
	So she holds the entire reputation of the family hostage.
	And I'm telling you, brother and sister, you cannot be good if you're over-concerned with your reputation.
	Because otherwise it's used to control you.
	We grew up by sorry, good.
	I grew up with people within my family attacking each other, but the mindset was family sticks
	together.
	So how did the two coexist?
	What does that mean?
	Where's that in the Bible?
	No, I agree with you.
	It's just, that's what I was, the mindset, I think, of my family.
	It's the appearance.
	Family appears.
	Probably, it appears to look like we're fine.
	Okay, so it's more important to look good than to be good.
	I think that is a good summary of my upbringing.
	Would you agree with that?
	Yeah, I think that's probably a good way of summarizing the culture of my immediate family growing up.
	Right.
	So that means that you embolden and enable and empower bullies and good people have to
	shrink into nothingness and ghostliness.
	It's the, you know, if you're afraid of people causing a scene, then those people
	would just threaten to cause a scene to get their way.
	If you're afraid of emotional discomfort or the family looking dysfunctional, then people just threaten to make a scene or cause a problem or embarrass you, and you're, okay, okay, right?
	It's literally like parents with toddlers having tantrums.
	Oh, here's the candy!
	Okay, shush!
	No, it's okay!
	Don't have the candy!
	Yeah.
	It's a culture of fear.
	It's like living under this shadow of emotional terrorism and having to obey the craziest people in the environment.
	My family, yeah.
	And we keep doing it every holiday.
	Yeah, so... And after all of this... Okay, when did your sister say... Sorry, Bob.
	When did your sister say your wedding was the worst day of her life?
	Um, a couple of years, a year, a couple of years after?
	I don't remember.
	Yeah, my instinct would say about a year after.
	Okay.
	Cause it probably would have been, yeah, somewhere there.
	So this is, that's just venomous, right?
	It's absolutely horrible and venomous.
	And to me, that would just be a total relationship ender.
	Like, I'm just like, good luck kid.
	You know, that's just like, that's just so horrible.
	I couldn't, and it's not, it's not loving to continue a relationship when people do that.
	Right.
	Loving is holding people accountable to virtue and holding them responsible for their lives.
	So what you're saying is that years after she said that your wedding was the worst day of her life, she's calling you up in tears because you didn't listen to her advice and you're pouring time, effort and energy into this little witch because she had a breakup which was entirely predictable.
	And you know why she broke up because she's pretty nasty, right?
	She's verbally abusive.
	So, even after she insulted the very foundation of your marriage and the love of your life and the happiest day of your life, you're still like, oh yeah, no, hey, whatever you need.
	I'm here for you, sis.
	Bro.
	Where are your standards?
	Yeah, that was the first couple years.
	Yeah, I agree.
	And yeah, that's.
	Yeah.
	Well, you took a big giant dump on my wedding cake, but let me see what I can do to help you.
	Oh, and you've never apologized or taken any responsibility for the hurt you caused me over the course of my dating and engagement and marriage.
	But I'm just here for you, sis.
	Let me help you.
	That was kind of my childhood.
	I was, yeah, I guess my, my dad would come to me when, with his problems with my mom and then my mom would do the same.
	I'm sorry, at what age were you being dumped marital problems on?
	Um, probably starting for sure college.
	I don't know how much in high school, definitely in college a lot.
	Um, but I know I was still living at home in early college.
	Okay.
	But not as like a kid kid.
	Right.
	No, I'm not.
	I'm just checking.
	Yeah, I'm trying to remember myself when it started, because they had issues for a while, but... When did the actual... It may be late high school, but yeah, definitely late high school or early college.
	And then it just kind of continued from there for a while.
	It's reduced some... Oh, it's still going on?
	It's largely...
	I've started telling them that's not my place and my wife has helped me with that.
	Do your parents know that your sister referred to your wedding day as the worst day of her life?
	I don't know.
	So she just said it to you and you don't think she said it to them?
	She probably did say it to them, I would imagine.
	So yeah, I did not hear her tell them, but I did not tell them.
	But why wouldn't you tell your parents?
	I mean, they're coming to you with all their problems.
	Why wouldn't you come to them with this?
	Saying this is a big problem.
	And this is a problem, by the way, mom and dad, that come out of the woman you raised.
	So you fix it.
	Yeah, I don't.
	I don't really take problems.
	And my wife just said this to me.
	I don't really take problems to them.
	No, no.
	You're not taking your problem.
	You're identifying their problem.
	You raised a really nasty daughter.
	You need to fix this.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	You need to get her to apologize and you need to get her to shape up.
	And I don't know where she gets off thinking she can say this absolutely appalling stuff to people, but you got to fix this.
	You're the parents.
	It's your job.
	You raised her.
	So go to it.
	What would happen if you said that?
	My dad, he would see the problem, but probably not do anything about it.
	As in, he would know he, it's his life where he hasn't been able to do anything about it or hasn't I haven't done anything about things.
	Okay, but you enable that.
	Yeah.
	By withholding problems from him.
	So you're saying to him, Dad, I don't have any faith that you can be a halfway decent parent.
	Because a halfway decent parent, A, would not raise a daughter like that, and B, the moment he caught whiff of something like that, he would absolutely sit down and have it all worked out.
	One way or another.
	Yeah Yeah, I fully agree, um
	You You
	you You
	So, do you recognize how different a parent you need to be than your father?
	Yeah, for sure.
	And have you sat down ever with him and talked to him about the absence of parenting that you experienced, the absence of fatherhood?
	I don't think so.
	I think you'd remember.
	Don't hedge me now, bro.
	I think you'd remember that conversation, wouldn't you?
	I've talked to him about how my sister felt.
	She did not have a father.
	I did not talk about myself.
	Why not?
	Just not directly me.
	Why not?
	I should.
	It's the same thing where I don't... No, I'm not criticizing you.
	I'm genuinely curious.
	Why not?
	I never felt like people would care about my problems, maybe.
	Maybe it's just like you're guessing, but it's your motivation, so only you can tell the truth about it.
	Yeah, I don't really know.
	No, you do know.
	It may not be obvious to you, but you certainly know.
	So why don't you talk to your mother or your father?
	I assume that your sister's probably kind of beyond hope at this point, but why wouldn't you talk to your mother and your father and say, I don't feel like I got much parenting?
	It sounds like that's what it was.
	Yeah.
	I don't know.
	All right, let's turn to Alice.
	Alice, why does Bob not talk to his parents about deficiencies in their parenting?
	I mean, listen, you guys have kids.
	I assume that, like me, if there's some issue with your parenting, you want your kids to say so, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so why would you withhold that information from your parents when it's what you would most need to hear as a parent?
	I mean, it's uncomfortable.
	Yeah, so?
	His mom would always tell me, like, what a great baby and child my husband was.
	He never cried.
	He didn't eat anything.
	That's kind of depressing.
	Yeah.
	Oh, he was just so easy.
	Yeah, he gave up on getting what he wants.
	And what about you, Alice, have you had any conversations with your parents about issues or deficiencies?
	I have.
	And how did that go?
	Poorly.
	In what way?
	And then, like, it'll go, like, really horribly, and then there will be some type of I'm sorry commitment to do better to try harder.
	And then it just is the way it was before.
	It's mostly your mom not your dad right?
	Um it's both so I don't really have it with my dad so much partly because i'm he's an intimidating guy.
	Yeah sorry what do you mean?
	My dad.
	Like no I know what do you mean by intimidating?
	Nobody really wants to go up to my dad and tell him what they don't like about him.
	and Sorry, but what do you mean?
	Is he, he'll yell at you?
	He'll like, is he a bully?
	What do you mean?
	He can definitely be aggressive.
	So he bullies his children?
	Yeah, he definitely did.
	Well, no, still does, if you're still afraid to talk to him.
	Yes, then I guess I.
	I guess I didn't because it's different because it's because I'm an adult.
	Yes, not a physical.
	I didn't say physical.
	I said yell, intimidates, but he's still bullying if you can't talk to him.
	Yeah, that's.
	And what do you think would happen if you went up and say, you know, I've got a couple of issues with the parenting, you know, I'm.
	I didn't really think about them as much until I became a parent, but now I'm obviously parenting kind of differently, and, you know, there's some things that I'd like to talk about.
	And, you know, whatever.
	He shuts it down.
	No, but then you just open it up again and you say, Dad, I really, I don't want you to shut this down.
	I really do want to talk about this. Well, then it's What was it
	Then he gets like really depressed and like well Yeah.
	And then you say, dad, dad, hang on, snap out of it.
	I'm right here.
	Like, don't fall into yourself.
	Right.
	This is about me.
	Don't make it about you.
	Right.
	I already had enough of that.
	Right.
	You make it about you.
	So focus on me.
	Come on.
	Look at, look me in the eye.
	Take a deep breath.
	You'll be fine.
	It's not the end of the world.
	We've just got a couple of criticisms here.
	So focus on me.
	I think it's stuff he can't come back from.
	There isn't any making it better.
	I think both of us think our parents are bad.
	You can apologize.
	You can make restitution.
	You can get some therapy.
	There's tons of things you can do.
	That's true.
	I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have these conversations.
	I'm just saying that you need to know why you haven't.
	Yeah, like I've started down them, and then it's obviously a no-go zone with him completely, unless it's about my mom, and then he'll entertain it to an extent.
	Oh, so he's fine if you complain about your mom, just not if you have any criticisms of him?
	Yes.
	And your mom, I assume, is the same way?
	Oh, yeah.
	Okay, so that's pretty childish, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	You have people in your life who oppose, deeply and strongly and aggressively oppose, honesty.
	Yes.
	And they strongly, deeply and vehemently oppose listening to you.
	Yes.
	Both of us, yeah.
	Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
	Both of you, right?
	So, what was the big complaint?
	Look at that, full circle we've come.
	What was the big complaint at Taco Bell?
	You didn't listen.
	Yeah.
	Are you aware that that's where it's coming from?
	Yes.
	Well, partially.
	I mean, this is all fleshed out.
	I did say recently, I think my wife gets scared by that because she wasn't listened to or cared about, but I then should know that.
	No, but it's still now!
	Yeah, it is still now.
	You have opposite principles in your life, which is going to tear us all apart.
	I'm not kidding about that.
	That's serious stuff.
	This will tear us all apart.
	A man can have a few monsters, right?
	So what are the opposing principles?
	It's loving family if they really oppose you talking and telling the truth.
	It's loving family if they don't listen and if you tell the truth they get upset.
	And it's loving family if you listen to people and take their concerns seriously.
	You can't have both.
	Yeah.
	You cannot have both.
	If the principle of the family of origin lasts, then You can't listen to each other, because the family of origin is defined as a loving, happy family, and honesty is attacked.
	Honesty is attacked, scorned, rejected, and to some degree terrorized, in that you would be terrified to bring this up, right?
	Yes.
	I've recently been bringing some things up.
	More with my mom, because I see her more.
	My dad's still working and not retired.
	No, come on, come on, let's not... I'm not going with you at that level.
	You already told me you're frightened to tell your dad.
	So let's not talk about him still working.
	Yeah.
	You can have on... Listen, you guys are working.
	I have a job.
	We're still having artist conversations, right?
	It's not about working.
	Yes.
	No.
	It's about fear.
	And listen, I'm not saying you're wrong to be... I mean, I understand that.
	I sympathize.
	I really do.
	Yeah.
	But this is why, this is why... I think it's really... Sorry, go ahead.
	It's so painful, though.
	Like, when they don't care.
	Because it's, like, it hurts them.
	Yeah, I don't care that it hurts them.
	They're the parents.
	It hurts you, though.
	I care that it hurts you!
	And I care, I care, that I care that your children grow up with some kind of consistency.
	Yes.
	Because they're gonna see these empty, avoidant, non-existent, pretend relationships.
	In your families of origin, they're going to be surrounded by it, they're going to be in there, even if the people aren't over that much.
	Yeah.
	It's in your head, it's in your mind, it's in your heart, it's in your soul.
	And they're going to see...
	Mom and Dad have the expectation that we listen in this family, but they're embedded in extended families which do the exact opposite of listen, which is punish honesty.
	A man cannot serve, and a woman cannot serve, two masters.
	You have to make a choice.
	If it's totally fine for your parents to not listen to you, and your sisters and siblings and all, then you can't blame each other for not listening!
	Because it's confusing as heck, right?
	But if listening is a value and you've got to listen...
	You have to be aware of the people who attack you for telling the truth.
	If you want to be honest with each other, you have to recognize the damage done by the people who attack you for telling the truth.
	I think we're surrounded by sharks.
	I'm going to serve two masters, and it's going to be a volatile, bumpy, difficult, unpleasant ride.
	Yeah.
	And it has been.
	Right.
	There's a war.
	There's a war between the liars and the truth-tellers.
	Between those who are direct and those who punish directness.
	Between those who listen and those who attack listening and are hostile to the very active connection.
	It's a war.
	You got an angel on one side saying tell the truth, be honest, be direct and listen and you got a devil on the other side saying to heck with all of that.
	Avoidance and appearance is all that matters.
	I've literally been to like I've told one of my complaints has been to my husband that I struggle to connect with our kids emotionally.
	Sure.
	And it's like painful to be connected to them.
	Because you have to reach through the icy ghosts of your parents indifference, and your kids are on the other side of that.
	And it burns your arms, it scalds your arms with ice.
	I don't mean to get overly poetic, but I try really hard to do it anyway, but it's hard.
	It is.
	It doesn't feel like it should be this hard to connect with them when they want it and they need it.
	Right.
	But here's the thing.
	Do you know why you can't connect with them?
	Other than my silly poetry, right?
	Do you know why you can't connect with them?
	No, not fundamentally.
	Okay.
	I'll tell you why.
	And I'm absolutely certain of this, right?
	Doesn't mean I'm right, I'm just telling you I'm certain.
	The reason you can't connect with them is, okay, would it benefit your children for you to connect with them better?
	Absolutely.
	Okay.
	Would it benefit you to connect with your children better?
	Absolutely.
	Would it benefit you as a married couple to connect with each other better?
	A hundred percent.
	Okay.
	So much.
	So, if you're not doing something that benefits everyone in the immediate environment, it must be to the negative of someone else.
	So who suffers if you genuinely connect with your children and each other?
	Our extended families.
	Yeah.
	And why?
	It started with my sister before we got married, right?
	And then it just continued on.
	All my family members, the rest of yours.
	So what happens if you genuinely connect with each other and you get through that ice wall?
	What happens if you genuinely connect with your children?
	What happens to your relationship with your parents?
	Well, it's just hollow and awful.
	Well, you will finally realize everything they withheld from you.
	Once you give it to your children, this is why it's so hard to improve.
	Once you give everything in your heart to your children, you realize everything in your parents' heart that was withheld from you, and it hurts.
	And it makes you angry.
	Because it's actually fun and great and easy.
	I get mad at my parents because, I mean, you guys have heard, I'm sure, shows with my daughter.
	Like, she's so much fun.
	We get along so well.
	We enjoy each other's company so much.
	And it's so easy and so enjoyable.
	And it's just like, why?
	Why overcomplicate things with all this distance and mess and deception and appearance?
	Just enjoy each other's company and do good.
	So, once you realize how pleasant and easy and positive it is to genuinely connect with your children, there will be both anger and sorrow.
	Sorrow at everything that was missing from you.
	And it's avoiding that sorrow that has you avoid your children.
	But you don't have the right to avoid that sorrow.
	You have to just embrace it.
	You connect with your children, it will cost the illusion of connection with your parents.
	Because once you genuinely connect with your children, you realize how little you're connected to others.
	And how ridiculous and shallow and nonsense and who cares that stuff is.
	I mean, I hate to say it, but it is.
	It is a fact.
	I'd have to let the illusion of what I wish we had.
	Right.
	And because you've chosen to have children, you owe them your whole hearts.
	Yes.
	No reservation.
	And if it makes you burst into tears, you know, mom's just got a bit of an old ache in her heart.
	Nothing to do with you.
	Right?
	It's fine.
	It's fine.
	Yes.
	It's fine.
	Yes.
	You owe them your whole hearts and whatever has to be sacrificed in order to connect with each other and your children and God, by the way, whatever has to be sacrificed to connect with love, connection, and virtue must be sacrificed.
	Because the alternative is just a massive net loss to humanity as a whole, to your marriage,
	and to your innocent children who did not choose any of this, and are relying upon you to
	break through that wall.
	You would have the same problems as we do if we don't accept the way we could.
	I mean, they'll be better, obviously.
	You're having these conversations, and this is to your immense and enormous – I mean, I can't tell you, guys, how much I admire you for what it's worth.
	The honor and the nobility of having this kind of conversation is a treasure of the ages.
	Honestly, it's a treasure of the universe to have this kind of conversation.
	So your kids will be far better off than you were, but why not make them perfect?
	Why not leap?
	Why should it take five generations when it only has to take one?
	So we press on and we connect.
	And that means also connecting, you know, with the anger.
	Your sister has treated you abominably.
	Yeah.
	And you have every right to be angry at that, and the anger is what will keep you safe.
	Not from her, but just from people like that.
	And also, you're just anger at those who do deep wrongs to you.
	Your children need to see it.
	Because that's what will protect them from predators in the future.
	You know, the ball rocks need to see that none shall pass bridge thing, right?
	And your kids need to see that you don't sacrifice your integrity for the sake of the approval of people who are kind of bullies.
	You don't flinch before corruption, you don't appease, you don't, like, I mean, you make your rational compromises with the world because we all have to live in a place that does seem a little bit like hell from time to time, but you don't voluntarily sacrifice your integrity, your virtue, your connection, and your love.
	And when you are connected with each other, Everything is so easy in the family.
	Stuff like the Taco Bell thing doesn't come up, because you're connected, and you trust, and you are not isolated, right?
	This kind of upset and resentment comes from a feeling of deep isolation, and a feeling of not being protected, and a feeling of not being considered, and a feeling of not being defended, and that loyalty is missing.
	It's a kind of isolation that arises from neglect, and it seems to me that that was one of the main things that you both experienced as children.
	It was a kind of emotional neglect, a lack of connection.
	And so these things swell and grow because they hit these very deep wounds and cords of, oh, people don't care about me.
	Oh, my feelings never get taken into consideration.
	Oh, you know, and that's a huge lack of trust.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, we both had very emotionally disconnected mothers, for sure.
	Right, right, right.
	And so it's easy to feel that nobody's taking care of you emotionally because nobody took care of you emotionally.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's not a fantasy, but it's not differentiated between past and present.
	And the only thing that differentiates the past and the present is virtue.
	That commitment to virtue, connect with each other, right?
	And the real-time relationship stuff, right?
	That's why it's so powerful.
	If you're upset because you don't go to Taco Bell, you say, I feel upset that we didn't go to Taco Bell.
	As opposed to, well you never listen to me, I'm not saying that's what you said, but some escalating language or whatever just to kind of cover up the hurt.
	Yes.
	And I say, I feel hurt that we didn't go to Taco Bell.
	Which doesn't make sense.
	My level of hurt doesn't match.
	I didn't get food.
	I only got food 15 minutes later, right?
	But I am really upset about it.
	I'm not saying it's your fault.
	I'm just saying that I am upset and I don't know why and I'm curious.
	What do you think, right?
	That's a connecting conversation, right?
	How could you not take me?
	I'm hungry and you knew I was hungry.
	That's all an avoidant conversation.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	You're just covering up the wound and lurching along like you're not bleeding out.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	That's very helpful.
	All right.
	How are we doing?
	Are we someplace useful?
	I think so.
	Do you think we should start with connecting with our children, no matter how much it hurts?
	So, you know, I don't tell people what to do, right?
	That's true.
	Everyone tries.
	I do feel like we're kind of like drowning.
	Well, I mean, certainly your children are owed your whole heart.
	I mean, you owe that to your children by having them, right?
	And I would certainly, you know, if your children are upsetting you, you say, I'm upset, it's not your fault, right, this is bothering me, but it's nothing to do with you probably, or whatever it is, right?
	So just focus on that relentless honesty with people.
	Because you guys, like, and I understand this, I'm the same way, right?
	Like, we were so punished for honesty, it's like, hey, why don't you just stick your hand in that giant furnace, right?
	It feels like crazy!
	It feels almost suicidal to be honest and direct.
	But if you just work on the honesty and directness, that's the best way to banish these ghosts, I think.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Well, I've been really trying to be more honest and direct, and I feel like life's gotten harder with my family in some ways, which has then been impacting our family.
	Well, you can't be honest and direct with your family because they'll attack and punish and ostracize you for it, won't they?
	Right now my mom's at the point where she's like, I'm so sorry that you feel like I don't listen to you.
	But that's not an apology.
	No, no, that's not an apology.
	But yeah, then she'll self-correct it and she'll be like, oh, I'm sorry that I don't listen to you.
	Okay, so then she needs to tell you why she doesn't listen to you, right?
	So, you know, mom, your homework assignment is go figure out why, figure out what happened in your childhood, come back and talk to me.
	You could talk to this guy in Canada, he's not too bad at this kind of stuff, right?
	But she's got to then... If you thought our conversation had some terrifying things in it, you did not even want to go there.
	I never flinch from going there.
	It's a blessing and a curse.
	So, no, but she then owes you some understanding.
	As to why?
	Because if she doesn't understand why she doesn't listen to you, how can she possibly commit to listening to you?
	Yeah.
	I mean, we just did two hours on Taco Bell.
	Right?
	No, because why is this coming up?
	Because we need to go deep into the roots.
	And your mom says, well, I don't know how to do it.
	Well, then therapy is, you know, she's not even working.
	She's got time for therapy.
	She can work on that kind of stuff.
	She can do, you know, workbooks.
	There's tons of stuff she can do to try and dig into the roots of what the issues are.
	And you know, your dad can do the same thing.
	And you know, like your parents on Bob's side, your parents need to deal with the sister stuff.
	And, you know, you'd say you don't have much of a relationship with your sister.
	I'm just telling you for myself, and maybe this is just because I'm a couple decades older, I don't do pretend relationships.
	I don't.
	I don't do it.
	Like, you get me, or go somewhere else.
	Like, I'm direct and honest, or...
	I just don't do pretend relationships, because to me that's like stealing from the great gift of life, to pantomime, to mime, to pretend, to lie, to self-erase.
	You know, God has given us this great gift of existence, and to me, like you know how suicide is such a sin because it's rejecting God's gift of existence?
	Well, so is lying.
	So is dishonesty, so is pretend relationships.
	You are denying God's great gift or the universe's great gift of existence to self-erase in order to conform with what?
	With nothing!
	With bullying, with emptiness, with avoidance, with rejection, with a lack of love!
	That's a sin, in my view!
	We've got this great gift of existence, we must use it!
	To connect and be honest and fulfill the commandments.
	Thou shalt not bear false witness.
	Well, you were witnesses to your childhood, and you were witnesses to your parents' deficiencies, and you are withholding correction from them.
	It is a sin to withhold correction from people who've done wrong.
	Yeah, they fight it.
	So what?
	We all know that.
	Everybody fights correction from sin.
	That's human nature.
	But you're not doing anything loving by withholding the truth from those around you.
	Now maybe they will get mad, maybe they'll storm off, maybe they'll storm off for a year or ten years or forever.
	But joining them in their sin by falsifying your entire history does not make the world a better place.
	Not for your children, not for your marriage, not for the future.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Will you guys keep me posted about how it's going?
	Yeah.
	Will you take a big hug and a bow for the majesty of this conversation?
	I really do appreciate it.
	You guys did fantastically.
	Thank you.
	You're very welcome.
	And keep me posted, all right?
	Definitely.
	Thank you for your time.
	Good night.
	Yep.

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