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Sept. 3, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:04:39

5625 My Mother Almost Destroyed Me... Freedomain Call In

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	Okay, thank you very much.
	All right, where do we start?
	Well, you wanted the call.
	I'm happy to facilitate the topic that you want, so dive straight in.
	All right, okay.
	So, yeah, so, I mean, about a year ago, I started in the men's behavior change program, which unfortunately is on the Duluth model.
	So, I
	Took a job in the Integrated Men's Programme, sort of thinking that I'll be helping men, because obviously, you know, I'm a guy and, you know, been through it in my life and thought I'd be helping men.
	But yeah, I was told sort of early on that it's not really for men, it's to help women and children as it relates to family violence.
	So,
	It runs on the Duluth model.
	Are you familiar with the Duluth model?
	I am not.
	OK, so the Duluth model runs on power and control.
	So it's kind of the standard model that runs through the police and subsequent social services as it relates to family violence.
	And it unfortunately runs through the feminist lens as it relates to
	Family violence, so it sort of relates it all to power and control and the patriarchy.
	I'm not sure what that would mean in terms of how things would play out in conflicts.
	Okay, so basically most of me to get referred through to my program were mostly our referrals from corrections, so they've had an
	A incident with the police or through the courts.
	Some are self-referrals though as well.
	So, generally speaking, as people get referred through to the programme, they have to run through this model, which runs through the power and control.
	So, generally speaking, it's always taken as a
	At the outset that the man is at fault as it relates to family violence.
	Which is sometimes the case, but not always.
	So we kind of have to run through that frame.
	And most of the men that come through the program, generally they engage with the material often as the victim.
	And it's difficult because we kind of have to reframe it because we sort of have to push back on, you know, blaming the victim, justification and that sort of lens, which makes things difficult.
	And a lot of men, it seems to be that
	Not a lot, but certainly a significant proportion have had a hard time as it relates to family courts and that sort of system.
	And ethically, it poses a problem for me because I'm not really allowed to engage with them on their side of things.
	I sort of always have to reframe it
	Around about that, they're the oppressor, and the female side of things is always the victim, as it relates to family violence.
	Does that make sense?
	I think I understand.
	I mean, you have to navigate the system that is, right?
	And try and help men as much as possible.
	I mean, I remember many years ago having Ellen Pizzi on the show, and she was famous for having tried to open the first men's shelter in the UK.
	And, you know, I mean, feminists went nuts on her and sort of death threats and all kinds of crazy stuff just for trying to help men who were victims of domestic violence or abandonment.
	And it's a little asymmetrical, I suppose.
	Well, it absolutely is.
	And like, I mean,
	Even in my past roles working in the homelessness sector, there are a lot of men who have been victims in this space, including myself in my own story, which makes things a bit more complicated.
	But I'm not allowed to engage with that, which is difficult within the programme that I'm in, that I'm working in.
	And what's your story?
	My story?
	Where do you want to start?
	I mean, when I was about, I don't know, maybe 21, 22, I was in a relationship with a much older woman, about maybe 10, 11 years older than she, about 33, 34.
	You know, I was, I was young, but, but, um, I made decisions, um, at the time and sort of overlooked, um, red flags, um, possibly because of my age.
	Um, but, um, basically within that relationship, um, like no, wasn't an option.
	I just sort of had to do as I was told.
	And, um, as things went on, um, threats and that sort of thing, um, when we went on, like for example, um, if I wasn't, um, doing as
	You know, she saw fit.
	You know, she would threaten to call my work and, you know, make all sorts of allegations and get me fired in case that, you know, I wasn't going with the programme or her point of view.
	And I see that a lot on a more higher stakes with all the men that I work with in terms of marriages that have fallen apart and then they
	They end up being accused of family violence, and due to the way the laws are worked out, not a lot of evidence is required, and they end up having to do my program basically in order to tick a box, in order to see their children.
	Right.
	And what were the red flags in the relationship?
	That's always helpful for men to see ahead of time and learn from our bitter experience.
	What were the red flags?
	Absolutely.
	I mean, you know, I mean, I was young and, you know, I've had a lot of trauma as a child and had low self-esteem.
	But the red flags in the relationship was obviously, if I could see clearly now as an older man, was using drugs.
	And, you know, there's a lot of a lot of victim blaming.
	And I'm sorry, sorry, just it's a little hard to hear.
	So the woman was using drugs?
	Yes, she was, and she introduced me to drugs that I hadn't used at the time.
	There wasn't a gun to my head, so there was a choice in the matter, but yeah, she used that to control me, sort of a long time ago.
	And sorry, when did you first know that she was a drug addict, and I suppose a drug dealer, if she's introducing you to drugs as a young man?
	Um, I would say maybe about maybe a few weeks into the relationship.
	I mean, um, the first few times we met, obviously she's, um, uh, given me sex that, um, I wasn't used to, and it was a lot better than what I was used to.
	Um.
	So she did the sexual love bomb?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	All right.
	And so you found out a couple of weeks into the relationship that she was a drug addict and a drug dealer, I suppose, or at least a drug hand or outer, whatever we would call that.
	Yeah.
	And what do you think had you susceptible to continuing?
	Because I assume this was before the abuse started.
	And I'm not criticizing, of course.
	I just wanted to know what is the vulnerability.
	No, absolutely.
	Well, it's, you know, a lack of self-esteem.
	You know, like, I mean, I grew up in a single mother household and it was... Oh, so you're used to serving dysfunctional women as a child, right?
	Absolutely.
	I'm familiar.
	Yeah, no, absolutely.
	It's like, you always have to say yes.
	Otherwise, if you don't say yes, there are severe consequences coming your way.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And how long did this relationship last?
	If we can call it a relationship, not really.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I, well, I would say about like two years of self-willingness and then another four years of me being trapped.
	Oh gosh.
	So this ate up most of your youth.
	Yes, it did.
	I mean, and, and
	I held onto a lot of, um, sort of hate and blame for a long time.
	And, um, I wasn't able to work through it until I sort of take my, take responsibility, acknowledgement of my behavior, um, on it.
	Even though I was a young man, um, even still like, I wasn't able to work through it until I sort of said, well, look, the red flags are there.
	And I saw them as green flags because, you know, um, I had issues and I had to work through them and low self-esteem and that.
	Um, and, um, and yeah, I, I continued it, but then, um, she got pregnant, um, um, by another man while we're in a relationship.
	And, uh, and did you know at the time it was from another man?
	Uh, within a few months I, I figured it out.
	Um, however, I was, I was trapped in it.
	Looking back, I, I could have worked my way out of it.
	Um, but I didn't because
	I mean, it sounds silly, but, but I had a dog and, um, you know, we're living in the same house with the dog and I was sort of trying to find a new house, but also she was, you know, with the drugs, I was addicted at that time.
	And, um, you know, I was sort of trapped, um, in that, in that space.
	And then, you know, she was, you know, threatening and she actually did call my work and, uh, make accusation and threats.
	So that, so it felt like, you know, I was trying to get rid of like the sexual misconduct of some kind.
	Oh, was it something else?
	Correct.
	And also being a drug addict and these sort of things like that, she was going to tell my work, in which case, which felt like, at the time, because, you know, I was not healthy, it felt like a death sentence at that time.
	Like, you know, if I lost my job, that was it.
	So she would call your job and tell, like, reveal your drug addiction?
	Correct.
	She hadn't at the time, but she would ring and harass the other workers and that sort of thing, and make a nuisance of herself and embarrass me, sort of with threat that the next thing that was coming was, you know, these sort of explicit threats of, you know, of violence and drug addiction and these sort of things.
	Wow.
	Okay, so how long, it was a six year relationship if I understand it correctly.
	And how long into the relationship did she get pregnant with the other man's child?
	About three years.
	Gosh.
	Gosh.
	Okay.
	And so you, how did you find out that it was another man's child?
	I suspected slash knew that she was having an affair with another man.
	And, um, I was, um, take precautions not to get her pregnant at the time.
	Um,
	Without being too explicit, that, yeah, I was making sure that I wasn't, you know, at risk of making her pregnant and then tying me to her for the rest of my life.
	And then she came pregnant and, you know, I didn't feel safe to accuse her to begin with, but we got in an argument and then I accused her and then, yeah, and then it all came out.
	Oh, so she admitted that it was the other man's child?
	She admitted it, in which case, you know, if I was rational and in a safe and healthy point of view, I would have, you know, tried to escape, you know, come hell or high water.
	I would have done that.
	But I didn't.
	And it lasted then again for another sort of two to three years.
	Oh, gosh.
	And did she, she obviously kept, I assume she kept the baby and you were raising another man's child.
	Is that right?
	Or did she leave and go with him for a while or?
	No, that is correct.
	He was involved, he was a gang member and got incarcerated during the pregnancy.
	And that's so, you know, obviously his resources as well as his wife had... So he was a married criminal gang member?
	Correct.
	You know, a great pick.
	Wow.
	Wow.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, no, no.
	It's all pretty hairy.
	And look, I mean, it's not the sort of thing that I share with most people because they wouldn't understand, but I obviously have shared with psychologists and that sort of thing, trying to work through my trauma.
	But yeah,
	This happened, and I tried to take my partner, trying to work him through it.
	Sorry, you said you tried to take your partner and work her through it, and I'm not sure what that means.
	Well, basically, once I finally did separate from her,
	Um, I held onto a lot of hatred, um, and that was a lot of blame and that sort of held me from taking responsibility for my actions.
	Um, I was a victim, but, um, but I also, you know what I mean?
	I, you know, I still make choices, um, and this is like very poor choices and, um, taking accountability and responsibility for my actions allowed me to, to finally work through it.
	And try and make changes to make better choices moving forward.
	Well, but a young man's mistakes are a social concern, not an individual concern.
	So, I mean, I'm sure you're aware of this, but one of the reasons why nature pumps us so full of mad testosterone sex juice is because nature is assuming that we have male mentors and healthy females around us to guide us in the right direction.
	I mean, if the young man's sex drive led, on a consistent basis, to this kind of chaos and horror, then nature would have turned down the juice, right?
	And made young men less sex-mad, right?
	So, the reason why we can be so crazy full of lust is because it's supposed to be a force that is guided to pair-bond us with a healthy woman.
	And without male mentors, older men with some wisdom who are past the sort of manic phase of sexual... I mean, it's easy to say lust, but young men are basically sex addicts as a whole.
	And we're supposed to have that channeled, right?
	Into a pair bonding healthy, or at least reasonably healthy relationship.
	And so to me, a young man's mistakes in the sexual arena
	Are a social issue.
	It's not just an individual.
	Because you didn't have anyone around you to sit you down and say
	Here are all the red flags.
	Don't do it.
	You know, here's five healthy women you can date instead.
	She's a drug addict.
	She wants to ply a man barely out of childhood with hard drugs.
	This is an absolute disaster, and you need to not go down this path, and here's why, and here's what happens to people who do, and you didn't have any of that, I assume, right?
	No, you're absolutely right.
	And, you know, the male mentors that I had in my life at that time were pretty much just some of the ones I did have were, you know, also drug addicts, but for softer drugs.
	And, you know, she made sure to
	To embarrass me, so that I would turn my back on them or they would make it too difficult for them to intervene.
	And I see that now as an older man and that these institutions that were in place, like the church or organisations or institutions, just weren't available for me at the time.
	Growing up, you know, not unlike yourself within a social welfare state,
	Um, and that just, just wasn't, it wasn't there for me.
	And, you know, I, I have sympathy, you know, for my, for my younger self and the poor decisions that I made, but, but lying within that victim complex just was not helpful, you know?
	Yeah.
	I mean, if I, if there was no such thing as a car expecting a young man
	To invent a car and all of the component parts and, you know, the rubber and the metal and the frame and the wheels and the steering wheel and the rack and pinion and the suspension.
	Like, expecting a young man to invent a car out of nothing would be insane.
	And expecting young men without guidance to choose wisely in the realm of romance is equally insane because we're supposed to have this whole structure in society that
	Strongly guides young men towards healthy outcomes.
	And because we need such a ridiculous level of pair bonding, you know, we're a very long-lived species and a man gets married at 20 and is going to live into his 80s, right?
	We're talking 65, maybe 70 years of pair bonding.
	And, you know, if you want two pieces of metal to stick together for 80 years, you've got to weld them like crazy at the beginning.
	So this is why we have such a high sex drive as young men is to get us into a pair bonded relationship that's supposed to last
	We're good.
	And women are very high on the totem pole because they're in the peak of their beauty and youth and fertility, and you're, you know, a broke-ass young guy trying to make ends meet and get ahead in life.
	And then, you know, in your, as you know, in your 30s and in your 40s,
	Your wife becomes older, she's, you know, often ravaged by childbirth, and she's losing her figure, and she's losing her looks, and so her sexual market value—on the open market, I don't mean in a monogamous relationship—her sexual market value declines, and of course, as a man, you are now a proven commodity, right?
	I think so.
	And so the pair bonding also has to survive, you know, what's derisively referred to as a midlife crisis, which simply reflects the fact that a man's sexual market value goes very high and a woman of the same age goes very low.
	And so the pair bonding
	We're good to go.
	And, you know, you're absolutely right, and that's where culture, you know, comes into play, where you have sort of, you know, a shared understanding of values and norms, whereby, you know, in the past, you'll be ostracised, and, you know, there'll be severe consequences if you left your family and started a new one, which is what, you know, my father did.
	There was no repercussions for it.
	Right.
	Sorry, did your father experience repercussions or did that get erased by the welfare state?
	Oh, no, absolutely not.
	No.
	Yeah.
	No, he started a family and you know, all is well, you know, yeah, the welfare state should take care of, you know, the past mistakes and quotation marks.
	And, um,
	And yeah, he can start a new family and he can be, you know, the best dad in the world to his, um, you know, um, look, I apologize, but mixed race, um, children that, um, you know, doing good going forward, um, you know, with, um, you know, whatever results that embrace, but, but in strict Darwinian, um, um, you know, uh, frameworks, you know, that's, it's a smart move.
	Yeah, and I mean the whole pair bonding that occurs with the very high male sex drive and the very strong female bonding emotional mechanisms, they have to survive all of the vicissitudes of life, right?
	And there are times, of course, if sex alone is the basis of your relationship, then there are times when in marriages there's more sex and less sex.
	Obviously in the honeymoon there's more sex.
	When there are babies around, there's less sex.
	And, you know, the challenging part in life for women around menopause, and menopause often coincides with, you know, a five to ten year decline in the health of the grandparents or the health of the parents of the parents, right?
	So, a woman is battling menopause, and that can be a challenge.
	And she's also taking care of aging and increasingly infirm parents.
	And, you know, it's tough to feel super romantic when you've just come home from spending a day, you know, wiping your dad's butt or something because he's lost his control over his bowels.
	So, there has to be such a strong pair bond at the beginning of life that it survives all these things, and of course it has to survive, as we knew evolutionarily when half the children died before the age of five, it has to survive miscarriages, it has to survive infant mortality, usually there's at least a couple of dead babies in the family burial plot, and it has to survive all of this.
	So, how do you get
	Men and women to pair bond to that degree?
	Well, the man's sex drive is crazy high and the woman's pair bonding is crazy strong.
	And so that's why you need older men to help guide and channel
	The young man's half-sex addiction to its proper purpose, which is a healthy marriage to a good woman.
	And of course, you didn't have that, so you latched on to a volatile, dangerous personality who didn't really have the capacity to pair-bond, and then you pair-bonded with her, and then I guess that was a six-year ride to hell.
	Absolutely, and you're right.
	Within a healthy culture, you would think that love would be trust and respect built up over time, not that infatuation, like you say, the crazy high sex drive and then the massive oxytocin released by the females.
	So, you know, within a healthy culture with, you know, good institutions involved, there would be that sort of knowingness that, yeah, the ups and downs and this and that are part of the course.
	And over time, you want to build a strong foundation whereby these sort of ebbs and flows are manageable.
	But within the
	Yeah, the disaster, quite frankly, of the welfare state, which is picking up the slack for bad behaviour.
	You know, it just causes all these social issues, which then, now in my new career, I'm sort of the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff.
	Right.
	And your mother must have been especially kind of crazy to have you pair bond with this level of instability.
	Oh, yeah.
	No, absolutely.
	I mean, you know, I would, even though I have a degree in psychology and that, I would not even try to guess what's going on with my mother.
	You know, there's some severe issues there, but she abused me and my brother, who I'm estranged from.
	Yeah, massively.
	Both of us don't have children of our own and our lives are, I would like to think that I'm rebuilding things and doing things not so bad, but we're both messes in terms of the general, the ways that you would gauge or measure a successful life.
	Sorry, you don't have to talk about anything you don't want to, but if you are okay with it, in what manner were you, or manners, were you abused by your mother?
	I feel that she has a form of mutualism by proxy.
	Um, look, I mean, I've, I've, I've unpacked everything.
	I'm happy to talk about, talk about whatever.
	Cause I think that, um, you know, like by being really raw and it's adding things, a lot of people, um, listening, it probably, um, experienced it to a lesser or similar degree.
	Um, but, um, my, my mother got caught up in the, um, sexual abuse, um, satanic panic hysteria of the late eighties and early nineties.
	And she convinced me at a very young age that I'd been sexually molested by my father.
	Oh gosh, OK.
	Yeah, it's pretty heavy, but look, I'm comfortable talking about it.
	But basically, there was a financial incentive
	I'm from New Zealand and we have a thing called ACC back there.
	So there's a financial incentive for having confirmed sexual abuse.
	So I just, you know, when do I start?
	Okay, so at about seven years old, my dad, when I was still visiting him, I was still, you know, having casual visits with him every now and then until about seven to eight years old.
	And, uh, he told me he was having a lot of parties and this sort of thing, and there was issues with my mother.
	And, um, I was a pretty smart kid, but, um, I didn't quite understand what he was meaning, but he was basically confessing.
	And what he was confessing to was the fact that, um, he was sleeping with, uh, prostitutes and another woman, uh, while my mother was pregnant and I was born with chlamydia.
	Oh, okay.
	So yeah, like a great start to life and really adult problems that a seven-year-old shouldn't be having to deal with.
	So my mum explained this to me, but you know, a seven-year-old's not quite capable of understanding all these sort of nuances and these sort of things.
	Um, and then, and then maybe within about a year or so, you know, I had issues, like, like it was pretty, pretty, uh, uh, understandable.
	Like I couldn't sleep very well, you know, I had all the signs of trauma and that sort of thing.
	Sorry, do you mean within a year or two of being born?
	Apologies.
	Within a year or so of, of my dad telling me this, and then me asking my mother for a response, and she explained it all to me.
	In adult terms, which I didn't quite understand, but I was showing all these signs of, of, uh, of trauma.
	And at that time in the late eighties, early nineties, uh, there was all this, um, satanic panic, um, slash sexual abuse kind of, um, uh, hysteria going on.
	And, um, you know, I was sort of talked into making accusations of my father, which weren't true.
	Um, but I was only a kid and I sort of, you know, I held onto it.
	A lot of hatred to myself for making this stuff up as a kid.
	Um, I've sort of let that go because... Well, you didn't make it up.
	True.
	No, what I mean, I'm not saying it actually happened, but you didn't just make it up out of whole cloth, right?
	So, you know, one of the things that we know as, you know, we had, as a father myself, I mean, staying a home dad for almost 16 years now,
	I mean, children are unbelievably, ridiculously, pathetically helpless.
	I mean, they really can't do anything of any use for a long time, right?
	And that's the price of our big brain and our conceptual abilities, you know, unique in the animal kingdom.
	Like, they've been teaching sign language and talking with apes since the 1960s, right?
	So, you know, 50, 60 years.
	They've been sign-languaging, or using sign-language with apes, and in those 50 or 60 years, not one single ape has ever asked one single question.
	Right?
	It's like the press corps.
	And so, we are so ridiculously dependent that we are programmed by nature.
	To please our mothers.
	We have to.
	And we will do that no matter what.
	Because the alternative to doing that is not surviving.
	Or to put it another way, of course, all children who defied their mothers
	Well, those genes got weeded out pretty damn quick, because the mothers would not feed them as much, they would not take care of them, they would not nurse them when they were ill, they would not protect them from predators, they would abandon them.
	I mean, infanticide and child abandonment and infant mortality was so high, like the pressure on the survival of children is so intense.
	You have to.
	If your mother says, jump, you say, how high?
	Your mother says, I want you to call this tree a potato, you call the tree a potato.
	Your mother says, you have to accuse this guy.
	Okay, well, the genes to say no got weeded out about 200,000 years ago or millions of years ago.
	You have no functional ability
	In any practical sense, and certainly from an evolutionary pressure standpoint, you have no functional ability to say no to crazy moms.
	So, it's not like you just made this up, I mean, biology, evolution, stripped you of free will and said, obey your parents or die, and if your mother says you have to do this and I'm sure the pressure she put on you was immense, what are you supposed to do?
	I mean, you choose death if you don't obey, in general.
	Look, I mean, you know,
	I so appreciate you, Steph, framing it in those terms.
	I mean, I have, you know, sort of thrown off that responsibility.
	And it's your father's fault for choosing such a crazy woman to be the mother of his children anyway.
	They're colluding.
	I don't view your father, and I'm sure you don't either, but I don't view your father as a victim of this at all.
	He chose to give children
	To a deranged, immoral woman.
	Sorry to put it so bluntly, but that's from what I hear, right?
	And so, if that blows back on him in terms of accusations, it's like, well, that's a shame.
	Maybe you should be a little more careful where you lay your dick next time.
	So, I view you as the victim.
	I don't view you, of course, as bad or immoral in any way.
	I'm glad you did it, because the alternative would probably have been to not survive, or at least that's what the genes say.
	So, I view you as a victim, and I view both your mother and fathers as participants and perpetrators in these allegations.
	And you are just trying to survive two insane, immoral people battling away.
	And if you're picked up and used as a weapon, well, you have no more guilt, in my view, than a sword picked up on a road.
	I really appreciate that framing.
	Yeah, I try to acknowledge it and work through it as best I can, but that framing is super happy hour.
	I mean, you were seven!
	What is a seven-year-old supposed to do?
	You've got no legal recourse, you've got no independent thought, you've got no guidance, you've got no protectors, you've got no salvation, you've got no wisdom, you've got no economic or legal independence, and if, you know, I'm sure you didn't really want to, but if mom says, hey, make these allegations, you are just...
	You're just a butter knife picked up in a fight, and the butter knife is not morally responsible, it's the people fighting who are morally responsible.
	So, I'm sure that you don't have much of a burden left after all of these years, but if there's anything I can do to ease that, even so much later, so much the better, I view.
	Your parents battling, and you are like an inanimate object picked up and thrown.
	Absolutely, and you know, for a long time I held on to it.
	It's also pretty clear for a seven-year-old.
	I'm like, I wouldn't say gifted, but I was pretty clear that for my age and at the time I was given a weapon to, you know, to hurt my father who had abandoned us to start a new family.
	And you know, I was,
	No, you weren't encouraged to do so.
	Please.
	I'm so sorry to be annoying.
	I apologize in advance.
	You weren't encouraged to do so.
	I guarantee you that your mother threatened the bond if you didn't.
	Yeah, she did.
	She either threatened it with violence, threats of abandonment, hysteria, escalation, abuse, threats of going to the orphanage.
	She threatened the bond.
	It's not like she's like, yay, allegations, you should do it!
	And you're like, good, that sounds great, mommy.
	That wasn't the scenario.
	That's not encouragement.
	I mean, I encourage my daughter in running races.
	I'm not going to use the same word for threatening the bond and provoking in you the thanatos or the death instinct that if I don't please mom, I'm dead.
	And if she's willing to do this to the man she once claimed to love.
	Like, there's an implicit threat in making your children do these kinds of horrible things.
	Which is, she's saying to you, hey kid, that man I promised to love, honor, and obey for the rest of my life, this is what I'm willing to do to him, kid.
	What the fuck do you think I'm willing to do to you?
	I chose him, you're just here by accident, in a way, right?
	If this is what I'm willing to do to the man I promised before Almighty God, to love, and I chose him out of a multitude, this is what I'm willing to do to him, kid.
	Cross me?
	You want to find out what I'm willing to do to you?
	I don't think you do!
	Yeah, I mean, do you want to hear something interesting?
	The happiest I've ever seen my mother was when I was 17.
	And I nearly died from a suicide attempt.
	And that's the happiest I ever saw her when I pleaded with her not to tell anyone or show anyone, and she talked about all her friends and relatives while I was in hospital.
	That's the happiest I ever saw her.
	Happiest I ever saw her was when she was, you know, showing me off, you know, recovering in hospital to her so-called friends and family.
	Yeah, I mean, I would assume, obviously, just a garden variety sadist.
	And, you know, when a sadist has power over you for the next decade — right, you're seven, and probably the earliest you can get out is seventeen — so if you have a punch-and-torture happy sadist in charge of your life for the next decade, well, you better obey.
	You know, it's like, you know, those stories of the soldiers in World War I.
	I remember as a kid, I'm like, why on earth would they get up out of that trench and run into machine gun fire?
	Like, why would they do that?
	Doesn't make any sense.
	Well, they're doing that, of course, because they've got an officer down in the trenches with a pistol who's going to shoot anyone and does shoot anyone who doesn't go over.
	So, rather than certain death, you'll take only a possible death.
	So, you know, if the soldier says, well, I was encouraged to get out of the trench and run into machine gun fire, it's like, no, you weren't encouraged.
	You were threatened with death.
	And that's what happens with cruel parents and children.
	It's all a death threat.
	It's all a knife to the throat death threat.
	And so I'm obviously completely happy that you survived.
	I don't feel any particular sorrow that
	Such a brute of a father got these accusations.
	I mean, I get that they were unjust and false, but I mean, and I wish that they hadn't happened.
	I wish that your mother hadn't forced you.
	I wasn't encouraged.
	I wish your mother hadn't forced you, but I do find it kind of tough to
	To find a great deal of sorrow in my heart for the blowback on a man who gave his newborn chlamydia.
	Yeah, well, there's no repercussions.
	He's living a rather nice life with his new family and children.
	Well, there are difficulties.
	Sorry, you think he's living a nice life?
	Well, no, he's a pathetic alcoholic.
	So why would you say, why would you drop a bomb like that?
	The evildoer is living a nice life?
	What are you talking about?
	He's got six children, so if you look at it from strict Darwinian, but yeah, I mean,
	Look, I mean, you're right.
	No, I just can't have you say that kind of stuff.
	Sorry to be annoying.
	I just can't have you say that kind of stuff to my audience that a man can completely escape the consequences of his evil actions and live a great life.
	I mean, that's as bad as saying, you know, my father is 70 years old, he's been a chain smoker for 40 years, and he just completed the Boston Marathon and came in fifth.
	I'd be like, well, that can't be true.
	It could be an outlier, yeah.
	No, no, it's not an outlier.
	There's no one alive who can be a pack a day smoker for four years and then come in fifth on the Boston Marathon at the age of 70.
	Like that's, that's an, like, that's not an outlier.
	That's an absolute physical impossibility.
	A hundred percent.
	And I suppose that's, um, you know, one of the issues that, um, you know, I still haven't worked through and that it's, it's crazy, you know, like,
	Your audio keeps coming in and out.
	I'm not sure if you're getting further or closer away from your microphone.
	I am.
	I apologize.
	Do you want to know?
	Let's talk about this, right?
	Because I think this is important, right?
	Because some of that bitterness comes out when you think your father got away with everything.
	Yeah, yeah, it is.
	You know, it's just heartbreak after heartbreak because, uh, you know, and it's, it's just so stupid of me, but I keep going back to that well, but that well is empty.
	Like where I was sort of 19.
	Please don't insult yourself.
	If you can do me a favor, I don't like it when people say I'm so stupid and so on.
	Right.
	Uh, I wouldn't, I wouldn't accept you saying that about me or someone else.
	So I certainly won't accept you saying about yourself, if you could refrain, I would, I would appreciate it.
	Yep.
	All right.
	So what's the well you keep going back to?
	My father.
	Okay.
	And what's in the well that you think of?
	Nothing.
	No, no, but you've gone back.
	So you've been, you must think there's something in the well.
	So what?
	Um, I don't know.
	Like I just want him to, to love me and to, um, you know, to, to appreciate me, but you know, he never will.
	Sorry.
	You want the evil guy to love you?
	I don't know.
	No, you just don't, don't, don't.
	I'm not, I'm not, I'm not asking you to retract your statement.
	I'm just, it's a little, I'm a little curious.
	I don't know how long you've listened.
	How long have you listened to what I did?
	A long time.
	A long time.
	Okay.
	So you want the evil guy to love you.
	The guy who chose your mother, abandoned you to her abuse, and slept around with whores when his wife was pregnant, gave his wife a sexually transmitted disease which she then transmitted to you in utero, and was, you know, just a terrible father and human being, and about as corrupt and immoral as a father and husband can be.
	Is that a fair assessment?
	Absolutely accurate, yeah.
	So, you want him to love you?
	I guess I had nobody else because, you know, shortly after my first suicide attempt, my mother threw me out of the house.
	I didn't speak to her for five years, you know, when I was about sort of 17 and a half.
	And, you know, I reached out to him because, you know, I had nobody else.
	And, you know, it became
	I'm not stupid.
	It was obvious that he had nothing to offer.
	But from time to time, I try to reach out again and try and build that bridge or reach out, which is just ridiculous.
	I don't know why I do it.
	No, you know why.
	And sorry, how old?
	I mean, you don't have to give me your exact age, but what decade are you in?
	Born in 82.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	Okay, so you're in your 40s, right?
	Correct.
	Okay, so this is a long time ago, and I completely understand how you would need, you know, as a young man, you would need to reach out to your father, you need a roof over your head, and, you know, you're traumatized, you've had a suicide attempt, so I can understand, it's like any port in a storm, right?
	I understand that, but again, this is many decades ago, and
	It's important to have a clear assessment of things now and understand why we did things in the past.
	So reaching out.
	That's interesting.
	Okay.
	Is your father a vain man?
	I think so, but I think that's, you know, there's no reason for him to be because
	By all accurate assumptions, you know, he's completely deteriorated.
	So, um, Would you call him, and again, we're just using this term in an amateur fashion.
	Would you call him highly selfish or narcissistic?
	Correct.
	I believe he has borderline personality disorder, um, or some sort of, you know, cluster B personality disorder.
	Okay.
	And would you call him cruel?
	Oh, yes.
	Okay.
	So, cruel people, what they love to do, particularly sadistic people, is they love to provoke a need in people and then deny that need.
	That makes them feel strong, important, valued, necessary, right?
	So you think of someone who kidnaps a woman and he'll dangle food in front of her when she's really hungry, he'll dangle water in front of her when she's desperate for these things, and it makes him feel strong and powerful and important to provoke a need in her and then deny her.
	That need.
	Some women who are sadists will do this in a monogamous relationship.
	Some men too, where they say, well, we're monogamous and therefore you can't get sexual gratification anywhere else, but I'm going to deny you sex.
	So they've provoked the need for sex by entering into a monogamous relationship and then they deny sex.
	It's just a form of garden variety sadism.
	And so my question would be, was it anything to do with you
	That you kept going back to this well, or was it your father provoking needs and then denying them, provoking needs in you and then denying them?
	Possibly.
	I mean, I think it was, like, he never reached out.
	He reached out once, I mean, about a year and a half ago, when my half-brother, who's schizophrenic, was having a complete meltdown, and my father knew that now I'm, you know, I'm in the, I'm into health field and I work with people and that sort of thing.
	And he asked me to help Ben to help my half-brother, which I did, because I'm stupid.
	So your father reached out because he needed you to help your schizophrenic half-brother?
	Correct.
	Okay, so he's not reaching out.
	He just has a need.
	He wants to dump his child on you.
	Yeah, well, at least that crisis.
	Yeah, at least that crisis.
	Okay, so he doesn't want to deal with it.
	He wants to dump it on you.
	So that's not reaching out.
	No, so yeah, you're absolutely right.
	He did reach out to me, but for whatever reason, I would reach out to him from time to time.
	Okay, so let's go back to when you reached out to him, did he ever give you anything that you wanted?
	No.
	So what would happen?
	What would be the cycle of reaching out to him?
	Well, I mean, okay, so, for example, a few weeks before my 23rd birthday... I'm so sorry, this audio is really rough, man.
	I'm sorry, just to ask you to speak closer to the microphone and enunciate a little better, because overall, I'm getting a lot of fog in the voice, so if you could just be a little bit clearer, I would appreciate it.
	Sorry about that, go ahead.
	So yeah, that's like reaching out to your dad.
	Sorry, my apologies.
	OK, for example, a few weeks before my 21st birthday, I reached out to him and I reminded him my birthday was coming up, you know, and that it would be good to see him or something.
	And then, of course, my 21st birthday rolled around and there was no... I was only expecting a phone call, but there was no phone call or no nothing.
	That's just sort of an example of where I would reach out and then maybe, you know.
	That's over 20 years ago, right?
	Correct.
	And then maybe every sort of five years or three to four years, I might reach out and try and have a dinner or something.
	I'm not sure why I would do it.
	Okay, so let's examine why you would do it, because I think that's important, especially because you got, you know, listen, man, he's going to age and he's going to want things from you again and his kids are going to run into trouble and his wife's going to age and they're going to want things from you.
	So if you don't have this wall, you know, welcome to the next 10 years of your life.
	If you don't have these boundaries, if you don't have this clarity, then you're going to get just hoovered up into this muck and mire.
	For five to ten years.
	I mean, I guarantee you this is happening, because I'm in that phase of life where people's parents are aging out, and it's brutal.
	So, and especially if he's an alcoholic, he's gonna have probably, if he doesn't already, you know, lingering messy health issues, and he's just gonna be like a guy drowning, grabbing at any piece of wood.
	And since you're somebody who provides him resources, you're, you know, gonna be on the speed dial.
	Quite likely.
	Unless I work through it, I will pick it up on the first ring, you know?
	If he calls?
	Correct.
	You know, I guess that's a lingering thing that I still need to work through is to put up those boundaries.
	Okay.
	So, but the boundaries are moral.
	They're not, I mean, everyone's like, oh, low self-esteem and this, that and the other.
	No, the boundaries are moral.
	In other words, the boundaries are a healthy defense against evil.
	Right?
	That's what you need.
	So, how do we get a healthy defense against evil?
	Well, first of all, we have to identify it.
	Think of like the immune system in your body, right?
	You don't want it not attacking dangerous pathogens, and you also don't want it attacking healthy cells, right?
	So it has to first identify the dangerous pathogens.
	Do you identify your father as evil?
	And if not, that's fine.
	We can have a discussion about that.
	I do, but I struggle because then when I see him or I talk to him, he's just pathetic and it's hard to hold that frame that he's just an evil person.
	Okay.
	So, um, he's pathetic.
	So what, what do you mean when you, when you say that, what does, what does that look like?
	He's just useless.
	Um, you know, he's, he, he's an alcoholic.
	Um, he's totally reliant, um, on his, um, on his wife or his, uh, his long-term partner.
	Um, yeah, yeah.
	He's just failed at, at, um, at everything in his life.
	And, um, you know, he,
	He portrays, and I'm pretty sure at this point that it's, you know, it's cultivated.
	He cultivates this, you know, this persona of being pathetic and useless in order for people to feel sorry for him and not to judge him.
	Okay.
	So he's manipulative.
	Absolutely.
	Okay, so he's gone from masculine intimidation to feminine uselessness in terms of the manipulation, right?
	Okay, it's very common.
	So, when you were genuinely helpless and dependent, right?
	When you were genuinely helpless and dependent as a baby and as a young man, how were you treated by him?
	Um, pretty indifferently.
	Um, when I was, um, growing cannabis, um, and that I was useful to him.
	So, um, he would come in and get cannabis and he, he, um, he got some, so he, he stole, he stole furnished, um, furnishings from his workplace to furnish my house.
	So when I was of use to him, then, you know, then I got resources.
	Oh, sorry, was your father a drug dealer?
	I don't know.
	My mother paints a picture of him as this drug dealer and all that, but he's not half the drug dealer my brother was.
	Even I was, somewhat.
	I was just a farmer when I was younger.
	Sorry, but you grew cannabis, right?
	And you shared it with your father?
	I did.
	I sold it to him.
	And did you share more cannabis with your father than he could use himself?
	I would say so, yes.
	Well, then isn't he at least giving it, maybe not selling it, but he's transferring the excess you're giving him to other people, right?
	Correct.
	Ah, okay.
	So this, and how old were you at this phase in your life?
	Um, it was in that in between time.
	So I was maybe 19, 20, 21.
	Right.
	And did you also provide cannabis to others?
	Um, I, look, I mean, I'll be, I'll be honest.
	I, I did.
	It was mainly for my own use and then I would
	I would frame it back in that time as pocket money, but yes, I would sell it or trade it for what I needed at the time, or what I found useful.
	Right.
	And what were the ages of people that you were giving or selling drugs to?
	I was very careful about that because I used to really judge my brother, who was wholesale, in terms of he would sell in bulk to people and then would give on to kids.
	Um, but no, I, I was very small time, so I knew exactly who I was giving it to and what, what amounts.
	It was all, all adults.
	So just young men like yourself, right?
	Young men and women.
	Yeah, correct.
	Or, you know, you know, yeah, yeah.
	All adults.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	But all victims of child abuse, I would assume, right?
	I mean, as far as you knew.
	No, no doubt.
	Yes.
	Looking back on it.
	Yes.
	Got it.
	Um, okay.
	And.
	How do you feel about your participation in, I guess, obviously, small aspects of the drug trade?
	Look, I, you know, it's, you know, dual-sided, like, sometimes I look back on all my times in that time because, you know, I had lots of friends, obviously, because, you know, I
	Was quite particular at Randolph to grow quite good quality stuff.
	So, you know, I had a lot of people who were wanting to be friends with me.
	So at that time I had lots of friends.
	Are you, are you really using the word friends for people who like getting drugs from you?
	Thank you for calling me out.
	Yes.
	No, absolutely not.
	No, they weren't friends.
	They were just using.
	They were just parasites and you were parasitizing on them to avoid loneliness and they were parasitizing on you to get drugs.
	Okay.
	Anyway, go on.
	No, correct.
	Look, I left that, obviously, nearly 20 years ago, but I still look back on it, and I am ashamed, because even though I was careful, there is no doubt that probably a small amount trickled down to children, most likely, and I am ashamed of that, and I will never go down that road again.
	It used to provide me with money, which then I would use for
	You know, nefarious activities, which then would then feed into, you know, further.
	What sort of nefarious activities?
	You don't have to give me any details, but that's a pretty broad category.
	Look, I used to, you know, I would frequent strip clubs and brothels at the time.
	Ah, okay.
	Got it.
	Yeah.
	Um, certainly very ashamed of it now, but, but I did do it and you know, that's a fact I can't, I can't walk away from.
	And, um,
	You know, knowing my, you know, how to share with my childhood and that sort of thing, but that's, that's no excuse.
	It was still a choice at the time.
	And, um, you know, it's, I don't do it anymore and I haven't done it for a long time, but I still did it.
	And when was the last time you went to a brothel or had sex with a prostitute?
	I would say at least, um, 10 years ago, 15 years ago.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Late twenties, sort of thirties kind of thing, right?
	Correct.
	I tried to turn things around once I hit 30.
	I could no longer excuse myself and be like, I'm just trying to keep myself alive.
	I'm just trying not to kill myself.
	By that time I hit 30, I'm no longer at that point.
	I'm not a young man anymore.
	It's up to me now to make changes in my life.
	Okay.
	So what was your fantasy dinner with your father like?
	What were you looking for?
	What would have been the ideal for you?
	Oh, look, my head was like, oh, you know, I'm really proud of you.
	You know, you turn things around, you knuckle down and you started, you finish with honors and et cetera, et cetera.
	And, um, you know, I'm really proud of you.
	And, um, you know, um, I wasn't expecting any resources and that, but, you know, just some props and some recognition, um, was the fantasy.
	Okay, and now, if you had gotten that recognition, what do you think that would have done for you in your life?
	What pain would that have eased or what benefit would that have provided?
	I don't know.
	I mean, I think maybe it would have stopped that hole or that issue with the male recognition.
	Obviously, I have issues with men and authority and that sort of thing, and maybe it would have eased that.
	Make me feel a bit more complete.
	Obviously, you know, that's total, you know, nonsense, but, um, if I'm reflecting on it, that's what I, what, what, what I think I might've gotten.
	Okay.
	So your mental health development was in the hands of an evil guy.
	Yeah.
	You voluntarily as an adult, you know, I'll be straight, right.
	We're not talking about when you were 18, right.
	You voluntarily as an adult put.
	The quality of your soul and the progress of your spirit and the health of your mind, in the hands of a guy who gave his baby a venereal disease.
	Correct, and I think he's an adult at that time in there.
	Sorry, the audio is coming and going, whatever you need to adjust to get back to it.
	It's just, it's really, I mean, because I really want to follow the story and it's just kind of annoying that you're... I, I apologize.
	Um, no, reflecting now, I can see where you, where you're coming from.
	Um, but at the time I think it was more to put it to bed.
	Like I was trying to justify it.
	At the time?
	This happening in your forties?
	Correct, but my late thirties, but yeah.
	Ah, long ago, lo those 18 months when my father wanted me to take care of my schizophrenic half-brother.
	In the distant mists of time called last year.
	A couple of years ago, but yeah, I think at the time, you know, the way I was sort of justifying it to myself was to put that to bed, to try and put that away, that hole and that sort of masculine, you know, affirmation that I wanted.
	Okay, so let me just, sorry if I got the timeline wrong.
	When did your father ask you to take care of your schizophrenic half-brother?
	Yeah, two years ago now.
	And how long did you do that for, or if you're still doing it, is it still occurring now?
	No, it's not occurring now.
	How long did you take care of him for?
	I did one crisis intervention, one evening, and then I did maybe three or four phone calls, doing some mental health support with him after the fact.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So it was less than two years that you finished it and more than 18 months.
	Okay.
	So we'll just say two years.
	I'm fine to round up.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Sure.
	Okay.
	So, sorry, it wasn't last year.
	It was the year before.
	Correct.
	The distant mists of 2022.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Back when men were men and women weren't invented.
	Okay.
	So you put
	Your mental health in the hands of an evildoer.
	I did.
	I did.
	And you did this as recently as 2022.
	Hooray.
	And it's not a criticism, it's genuine curiosity.
	WTF?
	Why?
	Why?
	What's the thinking behind this?
	He's an evil guy, boy do I ever need the approval of an evil guy.
	I, you know, it's, it's strange.
	I, I guess it's one of the, um, flaws that I, that I still need to work on.
	One of the character flaws that I still need to work on.
	No, no.
	Oh gosh.
	I don't want you to flaws and stupid.
	I just, just be curious.
	Why?
	Because you're judging, like you step back from the curiosity, you judge, well, it's a negative thing.
	It is a character flaw.
	And I guess I'm just stupid.
	And it's like, none of those is curiosity.
	Just why?
	I think it's because I, you know, I want to put that, put that to bed.
	I want to put that to bed.
	Tells me nothing.
	I know I want to be a bigger person and nothing.
	I don't know about being a bigger person.
	Like what is the fundamental moral judgment that you have where you say the way that I improve as a human being is to get the approval of an evildoer, which is like a cop saying the best way that I can become an excellent cop is for organized criminals to love me.
	It's insane when you think of it that way, right?
	It is.
	You know, you're not crazy.
	So there's got to be some kind of distorted thinking around there that I'm trying to understand.
	I think forgiveness.
	I want to, I want to forgive him.
	Fantastic.
	Okay.
	Are you a Christian?
	Culturally.
	Okay.
	So, so you believe in the virtue of forgiveness, right?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So who owes who forgiveness?
	In this relationship.
	Well, he forgave you when you were a child.
	Yeah, but I will never get it.
	I'm sorry?
	I will never get forgiveness.
	Well, you can't now because you're not a child anymore.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	He needs to beg your forgiveness for leaving you with a crazy, dysfunctional, destructive woman.
	Right?
	He needs to beg your forgiveness for burdening you with adult issues and inflicting a sexually transmitted disease upon you in the womb.
	And about a million other things, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So if forgiveness is a good, then refraining from forgiveness is a negative, right?
	Okay.
	So, forgiveness is something that can be earned, right?
	It can be earned if you take responsibility.
	If you apologize, you make restitution, you find ways to commit that it's never going to happen again, then there are people I'm sure in your life, and I'm sure you've done this too, all decent people have, you've made a mistake, you've done something wrong, you've hurt someone, and you apologize, you make restitution, you earn your way back into trust and honor, right?
	Yeah, quick side note, I use that in group all the time, and I want to thank you for all that framing around forgiveness.
	Fantastic.
	Let's put you in that group now.
	So, do you believe, because this is a Christian thing, right?
	And there's no negativity towards Christianity, but this is one of the challenges.
	Yeah.
	Do you believe that there's a good Father in there somewhere?
	No.
	Okay.
	So if there's not a good father in there somewhere, like I assume as a lifelong alcoholic, he's done massive damage to his liver and there's no good ghost liver in there.
	Like there's no backup liver that he can just pray into existence, right?
	His health is good, but anyway, yeah, carry on.
	He certainly would have done damage to his liver.
	I assume through the drinking, even if it hasn't shown up that much yet.
	Okay.
	Or like a smoker, right?
	Smoker damages his lungs and that's just the lungs he has.
	And there's no backup lungs.
	There's no ghost lungs in there that are pink and healthy.
	It's, he's just got these black lungs.
	So if there is no good father in there, then whose approval do you want?
	I think it's a, I, uh, I, I think it's approval, but, but I really think it's, it's my forgiveness to move on.
	I think that's what it is.
	What does it mean to say to move on?
	Because you haven't looked on.
	How long have you been working on this forgiveness thing?
	I guess I push it down, but really forever.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So since you were at least a young man, so we've got, you know, a quarter century.
	For a quarter century, you've been trying this forgiveness route.
	Right?
	Okay.
	Has it worked?
	It has not.
	You know, we just cut in quickly.
	You know, I moved country for a job.
	Sorry, your audio's gone bad again.
	Sorry.
	I moved country for a job, like, you know, like, just under a year ago, and I told him, look, I'm moving country, and I want to, you know, you know, do you want to see me before I go?
	And we made a time and a date, and he flaked on me, and then my uncle told me that, look, he's lying to you, you know.
	So he's what?
	He, he lied.
	He, he said that, um, he didn't have his phone or he made some excuse, but he didn't, he was just, you know, drunk.
	Are you saying that the guy who screws prostitutes and gives his pregnant wife a sexually transmitted disease is also a liar?
	Oh, yeah.
	No, that's, that's, hang on.
	That's shocking to me.
	And he lies.
	Yeah, I know.
	And, um, at that point, you know, I, I, I want to think,
	I haven't spoken to him since, but I, you know, that was the last chance.
	Okay, so this was a year ago.
	You were still hoping to get something from your evil bag of a dad.
	I want to say goodbye, but yes, for it.
	So what did you want from him?
	I don't know.
	I mean... Yes, you do.
	You absolutely do.
	We're not incomprehensible creatures motivated by things completely beyond our understanding.
	Because that would mean we have no free will.
	So what do you want from him?
	I really want him to apologize so I can forgive him and move on.
	Let's say that he was dead five years, right?
	Would you still want an apology from him?
	Would you still want to prop up his rotting carcass at dinner?
	I would really hope that I would say no, but maybe yes.
	Okay.
	So even death cannot reveal to you your father's nature, and even death will still have you begging for him to accept your forgiveness or to apologize when he's been in the ground rotting for five years.
	Maybe, if I'm being honest.
	I appreciate that.
	I appreciate that directness.
	I appreciate that directness.
	Right.
	So, the question is, you're a very intelligent man, so why would you continue doing something for 25 years that doesn't work?
	And gaslighting yourself as to why.
	Oh, to put things to bed, to move on, to... I don't like... None of this makes any... To deal with my hostility towards male authorities.
	Like, none of this.
	This is all just nonsense, right?
	None of it makes any sense and none of it's thought out at all.
	So why do you keep doing something for 25 years that doesn't work and you still want to keep doing it?
	Because you... A year ago, right?
	Last year, 2023, right?
	You wanted to meet up for dinner and get closure, right?
	Here's a rule of thumb, people who give you chlamydia ain't going to give you an apology.
	Yeah.
	You know, you're absolutely right.
	And, um, you know, I, I think it's because I stuff it down and, uh, I don't talk to him for years and I try and forget about it.
	And then it pops up again.
	Um, you know, and I, I think that's why.
	Cause you don't talk to him and that's why I don't understand.
	Yeah, I think it's cause yeah, like, because, you know, every five years or so, you know, I'll, I'll try again.
	I'm reason I won't think about it.
	I'll try and stuff it down.
	And then for some reason, I, you know, like I, whatever justification or bullshit reason that I'll, I'll try and, you know, say to myself, I'll reach out again.
	I only need to, um, you know, to be let down again.
	Um, and that, but it's not the once every five years that matters.
	It's the principle in your mind.
	That matters.
	It's the principle in your mind.
	Okay.
	You have an illusion about your father that there must be a good guy in there somewhere.
	Maybe, yeah.
	Well, that has to be the only reason.
	I think, you know, like, I think maybe because, you know, because my mother always told me I was just like her ever since I was like a little kid.
	So maybe that's it.
	Oh, well, that's the death threat from your mother, too.
	She detonated your father and her relationship with the father.
	Therefore, if she says you're like him, she'll detonate it with you, too.
	So that's the death threat from your mother very explicitly, right?
	Okay, let's go to your mother.
	What was moral, good, right, true, noble, and righteous about your mother?
	What were her virtues?
	She's a hard worker.
	That's not a virtue.
	Be a serial killer.
	That's not a virtue.
	Uh, virtue.
	Um, look, I mean, all her virtues are lies.
	Like, you know, she says she's truthful.
	I don't want to hear, I know the evils.
	What are the virtues?
	Yeah.
	Look, all I would say was that she's a hard worker and conscientious, um, and that, but you're right.
	That's not a virtue.
	So I can't say anything.
	And also if she's really dedicated to her craft and she's a sadist, you don't want a sadist to be a hard worker too.
	You want a sadist to be lazy as fuck.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So your mother is an evil person.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So why?
	I understand needing to believe this as a child, right?
	But why in your forties, in your fifth decade of life, why would you believe a sadistic evildoer who says you're just like your father?
	Like, she's a sadistic evildoer and a child abuser, and her soul is going to hell if there's any justice in the afterlife.
	And I would salute it as it went, and shed no tears whatsoever.
	She's an evildoer who abused children, who falsely accused her ex-husband of sexually assaulting her son, who forced him into that position.
	Who manipulates and bullies, and I'm sure is violent, and handed you over to Mom Mark 2, which is the crazy girlfriend when you were in your early 20s.
	So, if she says you're just like your father, how the fuck is that supposed to be any kind of empirical rational judgment from a manipulative evildoer?
	Well, I mean, like, you know full well that it's not empirical or rational, it's, you know... Okay, so the fact that it's not empirical or rational should give you some pause.
	Correct.
	A manipulation.
	It's a threat.
	Yeah.
	She says, this is what I'm willing to do to your father.
	You're just like your father.
	Ergo, this is what I'm also willing to do to you.
	So you better fucking get in line or you're going to be evaporated.
	You're going to be disassembled and turned into a red mist of former child.
	Yes, sir.
	Okay.
	So this is a threat.
	Yeah.
	This is a threat.
	So if you have crazy, sadistic, evil mother threatening you,
	Why would that threat, as an adult, I understand as a kid you got a nod and say oh yeah mom I guess I'm just like dad and because otherwise the threat is executed, right?
	So I get that.
	So, but as an adult, and as an adult of many decades, why would this still have meaning or landing or connection to you?
	I don't think it does in my day-to-day, but I guess in my subconscious.
	Okay, I don't care about your day-to-day, because we're talking about the deep tides of life.
	Yeah, in my deep tides, yeah, I guess it does, because, you know, it sort of helped brain my personality.
	Right.
	My temperament.
	So, you have allowed, and at this point it is allowed,
	Right, so you have allowed evildoers to define your value, which means you keep going back to this empty buffet of shit, trying to get a good meal.
	Yeah, correct.
	Okay, so why?
	What's the gain for you?
	What's the benefit to you of defining yourself according to the verbal abuses and manipulations of rankly evil and corrupt people?
	Why would you accept that?
	I'm not sure, apart from, you know, whatever sort of, you know, the temperament and personality that has now, you know, formed around me.
	But you would challenge this, right?
	You would challenge this in your mind, like a fire in the house, right?
	The fire in the house, you put it out or you get out of the house, right?
	If you're sleeping and you wake up and there's a strange rotten egg smell in the house, it means that, I don't know what, propane is leaking or something like that, right?
	So you wouldn't just be like, oh well, I'm sure everything's fine and just try and get some sleep, right?
	If you hear a thump in your house in the middle of the night, you get up and investigate, right?
	Because something dangerous could be in your home.
	So if you have, hey, evildoers,
	Have tried to define me to myself so that I can serve their evil plans.
	So that is like a dangerous pathogen.
	That is like rot on your sandwich.
	That is like fur and bacteria on your sandwich.
	Right?
	So you don't just eat it.
	You identify that as really bad for you and you fight it with everything you've got because it's a vile infection that harms your life.
	You hear what I'm saying, right?
	So you have allowed this infection to sit and define you deep in your spine.
	And the question is, I mean, I'm not saying anything to you that you don't know, right?
	I mean, you've listened to me for years, right?
	So this is nothing too shocking.
	So the question is, why haven't you squared off against this infection?
	Why haven't you fought it with everything you've got and get that shit out of your brain?
	I'd like to think that, you know, of, um, look, I mean, it's,
	It's no excuse, but it's no longer on the dinner table, but it's still sitting there in the basement.
	Are you in a happy and loving and stable romantic relationship?
	I think you know the answer to that.
	Well, that's why I'm bringing this up.
	You allowed evildoers to define your essence and you're having trouble falling in love.
	Yeah.
	Of course.
	That's the price.
	You were born with an infection.
	Chlamydia.
	You still have an infection.
	Yeah.
	Called essence.
	Your essence has been defined by evildoers.
	Your mom, who's an evildoer, says you're just like your father.
	Your father, who's an evildoer, you still have this fantasy that he has something that he can provide you that is not manipulation.
	Yes.
	So why are you holding on to these definitions when they are undermining your life?
	Why are you still allowing evildoers in your fifth decade, why are you still allowing evildoers to define who you are?
	I think, um, I think that, um, like I said, I don't make excuses, but I've made some progress.
	But for some reason, it's not clear to you though.
	A year ago, you're still trying to get your dad's approval.
	When you were 41 years old, this guy who's giving you nothing but shit sandwiches.
	You're like, maybe he's become a Gordon Ramsay.
	So the progress is not enough and it's not clear.
	It's not enough.
	If you've reduced the spread of the infection, that doesn't make you well.
	Correct.
	It's difficult, isn't it, to throw off things that, like you said, have been playing in your mind or have been dividing yourself for so long.
	Because then I guess all you're left with is yourself.
	What?
	No!
	You're incredibly isolated at the moment.
	All you have now is the lies.
	Right?
	You can't be close to people if evil people have defined your essence.
	Because the only way that you can be around people in any close way, if evil people have defined your essence, is to be around evil people.
	Which you don't want to do.
	But you can't be around good people because good people can smell this rot a mile away.
	Yes.
	That, that, that is true.
	You're isolated.
	You say, Oh, well, all I'm going to have is myself.
	You don't even have yourself yet.
	You've just got an endless 24 seven job of lie management.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	You're right.
	And I say this with great compassion and none of this is any kind of negative judgment.
	I want you to understand that very clearly.
	I say this with great sympathy.
	Yeah.
	So what is causing... I mean, the stuff that you say about your parents is some of the worst stuff I've ever heard, and I've heard a lot.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like, you've got to be in the top ten of thousands of callers, you've got to be in the top ten of people with evil parents.
	So what you communicate to others, this is what keeps you isolated, what you communicate to others is, my parents were about as evil as evil can be, and
	I still want things from them.
	I still let them define me.
	I'm still trying to get close to them.
	I'm still trying to get closure.
	And that is very disorienting to people.
	Honestly, it's like, it's like listening to, imagine you go on a date, right?
	Yep.
	And you say to a woman, Hey, uh, tell me a little about yourself.
	And she says, well, I, I enjoy being a pen pal.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	Right?
	And she says, so there was this guy, he's a serial killer and he likes to murder children and I'm a pen pal with him and I really hope he'll take me out on some dates when he gets out of prison.
	What would you think?
	Yeah, not a smart move.
	Well, but what would you think deep down?
	I would think that they're damaged and making poor decisions due to various factors.
	Okay.
	This is all very abstract.
	What would you feel about such a woman who said, I can't wait for the serial killer of children to get out of prison so he can take me on a date and maybe take me away for the weekend?
	Yeah, like if I, it depends if I was, you know, in a professional sort of thing.
	What would you feel?
	I would feel bad.
	I would, I would feel, I would feel judgment.
	I would feel that this person's, you know, not a feeling.
	What would you feel?
	There'll be a lot more evil to propagate in the world.
	What would you feel?
	I would feel terrible.
	Yeah.
	I feel terrible.
	It's not a feeling that can be a headache.
	What do you feel?
	What is the flavor or depth of your emotion?
	What kind of emotions are you having?
	Um, uh, pain.
	I would feel, uh, emotional pain, I guess, um, on their behalf.
	Um, and also anger, um, at their poor decisions.
	Okay.
	So, I think there's something you wouldn't see.
	Yes.
	Oh, maybe you see it deep down.
	I would feel disgust and horror.
	And the reason I would feel disgust is that this woman was serving and rewarding evil.
	Uh-huh.
	Right?
	Yes.
	Because she'd be like, I can't wait to fuck the serial killer.
	So she would be serving and rewarding evil.
	Mm-hmm.
	You follow?
	Yes, I do.
	I mean, yeah, I'm very familiar.
	Okay.
	Your parents are evildoers.
	I think we've agreed on that.
	Is that fair?
	That is absolutely fair.
	Okay.
	Now, we haven't talked.
	Is your mom still alive?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	And what's your relationship like with her, if there is one?
	It's sporadic, at arm's length, yeah.
	Okay, so you still have a relationship with your mother, okay.
	Correct, yeah.
	I'm sorry?
	Sorry?
	Yes, yes I do.
	Okay.
	So, they have not apologized, they have not become better people.
	They're still manipulative, and they're still toxic, right?
	Correct.
	Okay, so you are serving and rewarding evildoers with the grace of your presence.
	You are shielding them from the consequences of their evils by continuing to seek things from them and pretending to have some kind of relationship.
	Now, you can say about your dad, well, it was goodbye last year, but, you know, he still obviously has an effect, and who knows what's going to happen in another couple of years when you start to get teary-eyed and sentimental and full of crap.
	Correct, yeah.
	Okay, so you are serving and rewarding evildoers?
	Correct, yeah.
	So, what does that do to your moral standing in your own conscience?
	It creates, um, yeah, tension and, um, yeah, yeah, I'm not able to, um,
	You know, to be an ethically moral and upstanding person, if I continue to do that.
	Yeah, I see that.
	Are you aware of the price of your conscience by continuing to serve and reward evildoers?
	I see that now.
	Yeah.
	So why would you do that?
	Have you had, sorry to interrupt, I apologize, I asked you a question and I apologize for interrupting.
	So, have you had, you know, quote, the conversation about your parents, about what they did to you that was dire and immoral when you were a child?
	Have you had that conversation or those series of conversations where you talk about problems that you had with them when you were a child?
	I have tried, you know, forthrightly.
	My mother, she cannot handle it.
	She will collapse and deteriorate.
	What do you mean she cannot handle it?
	She will.
	Yeah, she cannot.
	She's in total denial about it.
	What do you mean?
	She cannot.
	So if somebody gave your mother a million dollars to sit and listen to you for 20 minutes, would she take that money and would she find some way to not burst into tears or whatever?
	Or even if she did, would she say, no, no, no, keep going.
	Cause there's a million dollars.
	I don't think she would.
	Yeah, she would.
	She would.
	It's all manipulation.
	She has no genuine emotions.
	Everything is manipulation.
	And if there was enough of incentive, she could absolutely do it.
	I guarantee you.
	Okay.
	Listen, she's a functional person in the world, right?
	You said she's hardworking, right?
	She ran away.
	Last time I did in a public place, I tried to have the conversation.
	I get that, but you're thinking that she can't, and that's not true.
	Now, if she was in a coma, if she had Alzheimer's, if she had some significant brain damage,
	Or if she was in some mental institution and highly drugged up.
	Okay.
	I, but she's, you said she's hardworking and conscientious, right?
	So she's a functional person in the world.
	Which means she has the capacity to defer gratification.
	She does.
	Okay.
	So she's just bullshitting you and she's lying and manipulating and you're letting her get away with it.
	But, oh, she just can't just like, what do you mean she can't?
	Of course she can.
	She's got free will.
	Yep.
	She, she does.
	I, you know, like.
	I think you're right.
	I mean, I always justify it to myself.
	You're played!
	You're getting played!
	Oh, I can't take it!
	You must stop!
	I'm so upset!
	Okay, you're fine.
	I'll stop.
	You're just played, man.
	Come on.
	Yeah, I'm a bad sucker.
	I'm a sucker.
	All right.
	So you haven't had that with your mother because she... Oh, she runs away.
	It's too... I can't do it.
	It's too unbearable.
	Blah, blah, blah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	So what about your dad?
	I have, but he seems to be immune to it.
	It's, it's, um, it's mad.
	I, um, you know, when I was like, uh, if you want, if you're up for another, like really messed up story, um, when I was, um, when I stopped now, so when I was 19, you know, I reached out to him again, I think partly for my own good, because, you know, for resources I was, I was
	Seeing what I could get, I guess, and, um, and that, and I, I, I met up with him and, and stuff.
	And you wanted money from him?
	Possibly, but more likely, like maybe, maybe money, maybe furniture, maybe, you know, I was, things were a bit... Sorry, you're giving up the truth about your childhood and love for a fucking table?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	I think things were, things were, things were hairy.
	Things were hairy at that time.
	I was, um, yeah, borderline, borderline homeless.
	Um, but anyway, regardless, I met up with him to see what I could get out of him.
	That was what I was, you know, if I'm looking back on things that sort of what I would, um, how I would frame it.
	Um, and I just, um, you know, I, I happened to have, um, two tabs of, um, LSD on me and I, um, you know, I showed it to him just to, I guess, show off.
	And I said, Oh, look, you know, I got this.
	And he just picked one up and ate one.
	And then, um, how old were you at this point?
	Nineteen.
	Nineteen, okay.
	So, I get that.
	That's a long time ago.
	So, your father, who's a drug addict, you show him drugs.
	Or was he a drug addict at the time?
	I wasn't sure, but yeah.
	I mean, yes, he was.
	Probably.
	I mean, certainly a heavy drug user.
	Okay.
	Alcoholic, yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, of course, well, he already ate one.
	So, I mean, I might as well eat one, too.
	And so, anyway, we, you know, we
	Went to some gathering or something, went to his place, and I tried to have the conversation with him.
	Sorry, you tried to have the conversation with your father?
	I'm sorry, I know this is not funny, and I apologize for a little bit of laughter.
	So you tried to have the conversation with your father when you were 19, and he was tripping balls on LSD?
	When she stole off me, I want to be noted.
	Well, you show drugs to a drug addict, what do you expect?
	Okay, so let's not pretend that this is anything that could be achieved.
	You can't have the conversation with a drug addict or heavy drug user who's high on LSD.
	Can we agree on that?
	We can, we can agree on that.
	And, and I did have the, try and have the conversation later on when we were stone cold sober too.
	But, um, whatever hard shell is placed over him, um, it just bounces off.
	Um, and, and that, and, um, I tried to, um, apologize for the sexual abuse, um, allegations and stuff.
	And so I've explained to him that, um, you know, look, it was sort of goaded out of me and I tried to take it back.
	But at that point, I was told that I was in denial and I couldn't take it back at that point.
	And he sort of forgave me.
	He said he just blamed my mother and said, you know, not to worry about it.
	And then later on, I'd sort of, you know, tried to say as well about, you know, the birthdays and all that sort of thing.
	You know, all the time missed and the impacts that I've had, but it just, it just bounces, bounces off him.
	He doesn't, he doesn't register it at all.
	He sort of says the words, but yeah, it doesn't really impact him.
	And sorry, how old were you when you had these series of conversations?
	I think 19, we tried, we were shooting balls, um, and that.
	No, I think the LSD thing was 19, but the other ones?
	Um, I think maybe 23?
	20 years.
	Okay, so 20 years ago.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, you've had no satisfaction in that realm for decades.
	No, no, that is not going to happen.
	Okay, so it sounds to me, and I don't mean this in any critical way at all, it sounds to me like you just don't want to give up your parents, right?
	You still want to hang around evildoers and want things.
	You're willing to sacrifice love and connection and companionship.
	Of course they're gonna die, you're still gonna be alone, right?
	And there'll be fewer women to pick from in your 50s or 60s.
	So it sounds to me like, because I'm always trying to track the emotions behind the words, right?
	So I'm half listening, actually I'm about 35% listening to what you say, and I'm about 65% listening to your emotions.
	Now, I've really tried to challenge this moral core of yours, and you've bounced away from that and have no particular emotions about it.
	And so, it sounds to me like you don't want to give up wanting or needing things from your evil parents.
	And I don't mean this in any critical way, I'm just trying to... because there's no particular... you had a bit of emotion earlier, but it's all gone, right?
	And so when I'm talking about this aspect... and I don't want to waste your time, obviously, right?
	So, if you want to continue to have these evildoers in your life with no particular confrontation, no... I mean, do what they want, not what's good for you, right?
	So, unfortunately now you have, you know...
	Twenty-five years almost as an adult doing what your parents want rather than what's good for you, and it sounds like you want to continue that, and maybe things will change after they're dead or something like that, but it sounds to me like you want to continue doing that, and I'm just making that as an observation, not with judgment.
	That's a really good observation, which I guess I've...
	I have not thought about it critically because it's very sporadic.
	I speak to my dad once or twice every five years and my mother once or twice a year, but you're absolutely right.
	But you're always waiting for the call, aren't you?
	I don't, I don't think I am, but I think... Okay, then what's the plus of having them in your life?
	Help me understand that.
	What's the plus?
	I mean, the cost is pretty clear to me.
	I think I've made my perspective on that pretty clear.
	So what's the plus?
	I don't know.
	Am I trying to be the better, you know, to be the bigger person and to be, you know, to this, this forgiveness and to, to let it go?
	I don't know.
	I think I framed it a while back.
	I tried to frame it around trying to break the cycle because, you know, my mother... You haven't broken the cycle.
	You're alone, you're alone in your 40s with no kids!
	What cycle have you broken?
	Breaking the cycle of ostracization, of cutting people off, because that's what's been the cycle.
	So I think I framed it around that.
	Breaking the cycle of cutting people off?
	Are you kidding me?
	Why are you saying this stuff to me?
	Do you have any idea who you're talking to?
	You've listened to me for years.
	So if you say, I can't have any personal boundaries, I have to do whatever the fuck evil people want me to do, I can't have any standards of behavior, I have no self-protection, but don't worry Steph, that's great progress in my life.
	That's great progress in the moral universe.
	No, it's not.
	It's not.
	So you're saying that you're breaking the cycle because breaking the cycle is cutting people off.
	It's an excuse.
	It's an excuse for me to take the easy way out.
	Why do you, why?
	It's not the easy way.
	You're alone and childless.
	When was the last time you had a long-term romantic relationship?
	A year ago, I was with my partner, my ex-partner for four years.
	And why did that end?
	Um, her family was really dysfunctional.
	Oh no, you didn't just say that to me.
	You didn't.
	You didn't just say that to me.
	Well, you see, although these are my parents, her parents were actually kind of dysfunctional and it really had negative effects on the relationship.
	You didn't just say that.
	I actually did.
	I put up boundaries and I said that I will not tolerate disrespect, you know, from them.
	And it carried on and I did fine after many, you know, many, you know, she was lovely and, you know, I wasn't going to put up with disrespect from, she wasn't wanting to cut them off.
	So I said, that's it.
	It's over.
	Right.
	So she chose her dysfunctional family over true love or the possibility there too, right?
	Correct.
	And so are you.
	I don't know why you think that's her issue and not yours.
	How the fuck are you supposed to tell someone, well, you really can't have dysfunctional people in your life now, excuse me, I have to go arrange a dinner date with the guy who gave me chlamydia as a baby?
	Are you trolling me at this point?
	I don't know if this is serious anymore.
	It's absolutely serious.
	Then what the fuck are you saying?
	She couldn't draw boundaries with her dysfunctional family.
	Oh, dad needs me to take care of his schizophrenic half-brother, I'm on it.
	I guess I justify it by saying once or twice every five years and once a year, I can handle that.
	But you're right, an ethical and moral boundary needs to be absolute.
	Oh yeah, you know, if a guy only kills someone every five years, that's okay.
	There's lots of time between.
	Yeah, you're absolutely right, and man, this is so helpful for me.
	Okay, did she ever say anything about your relationship with your parents?
	Well, because she's very, like, she's Māori, right?
	She's what?
	She's Māori, like Mary, I guess.
	She's indigenous New Zealander.
	She's Māori?
	It's Māori, you know, the indigenous New Zealander.
	Oh, Māori!
	Okay, okay, sorry, sorry, sorry.
	Okay, got it.
	My apologies, I misheard.
	Okay, so she's Māori, and so then you have, you know, the cultural, and did she grow up in Māori, or a Māori culture, or a New Zealand culture?
	Yeah, well, a bit of both, but basically there is no cutting of bonds and family in that culture.
	Well, and aren't Maori children treated absolutely appallingly on average?
	Absolutely correct, yes.
	Okay.
	So why are you choosing a woman who had severe child abuse and was still bonded with her parents?
	I guess the person that would take me, I guess.
	Well, then don't tell me how loved she is, then it's just a port in any storm.
	I mean, yeah, that is true, but she was, like, she was very kind to me, and very nice to me, and very, you know, she was a very good partner.
	And it wasn't because of her behaviour that we broke up.
	That's being honest.
	Well, you broke up because her family was treating you badly, right?
	Correct.
	And she supported her family treating you badly.
	She didn't support it, but she wasn't willing to.
	I'm sorry?
	Did she put you in situations where her family would treat you badly?
	In other words, come over and see my family, my family's going to be here, my family's going to be there, we're all going to be together, knowing in advance that they were going to treat you badly.
	Look, I mean, for you and me, yes, you would say that, but I don't think she would think that far ahead.
	I don't think, honestly, that she would.
	So, I don't know what you mean, she wouldn't think that far ahead.
	She's not stupid, right?
	A little bit.
	I wouldn't say she's stupid, but she's not sophisticated in her thinking.
	Sorry, I didn't quite get the end of that.
	She's not sophisticated in her thinking.
	I don't think she was thinking three or four steps ahead.
	That's not three or four steps ahead!
	My family treat my boyfriend badly, therefore when they're around my boyfriend, they'll treat him badly.
	That's not, you know, unpacking the secrets of the universe there.
	Okay, fair.
	Okay, fair.
	So, she loved her dysfunctional family more than she loved you?
	Correct.
	Because when you said, I don't want to be in this situation anymore, and was she of a childbearing age or was she older?
	Oh no, she was like early 30s.
	Okay, so she gave up what could probably be her last chance to have children, and you gave up your last chance to be a father,
	Because of her screwed up family and their aggression and disrespect towards you?
	That is correct, yeah.
	Now, have you been listening to me for more than four years?
	For a while.
	For a long time.
	I don't know if you've seen it.
	So, just out of curiosity, why wouldn't you, and maybe you did, I don't know, but why wouldn't you shoot me a call and request?
	Saying, I'm thinking of getting involved with a Maori girl who's not super smart and is highly traumatized from her family and will never break any bonds with them.
	I didn't think you would, I guess, yeah, I didn't think you'd take my call.
	You didn't think I would take the call?
	No.
	Why?
	I think you'd have, you know, I just didn't think that, that yeah, you'd have much volume or, you know, I wouldn't make the cut.
	Oh, so you made that decision for me?
	Yes, I mean, that's the excuse, isn't it?
	It's a justification of, you know, avoiding... Okay, so that's, I mean, you know that's a cope, that's an excuse, right?
	I just said that, yes, correct, yeah.
	So, because the stakes are very high, right?
	You're a guy who grew up with a lot of trauma and dysfunction, and you already got into a relationship with a highly dysfunctional woman in your twenties, right?
	Great.
	And so, there were times when we were doing three or four call-ins a night on video, right?
	Yes.
	So, you almost certainly would have gotten in, just so you know, right?
	Because we were trying to get to just about everyone.
	Or if you just sent me a comment or a question, either on one of the websites that I have, you know, here's my situation, what do you think?
	Right?
	I would have, I could have done it just in a response, right?
	So there were a lot, it didn't have to be a full call in, right?
	You could have just shot me an email or posted somewhere, because I'm often asking people, give me your questions, give me your problems, and I'll do responses to those, right?
	Yep.
	Now, did your family warn you about the Maori girl?
	Well, I mean, I'm not in touch with my family very often.
	I mean, my dad, like, you know, tells me every, like, you know, once every sort of three or four years.
	So he didn't know about her at all.
	And that, my mother was just happy I had someone that was being kind to me in my life.
	So she was pretty encouraging.
	But then she,
	Wasn't, um, you know, I told her that, that we'd split, she was, you know, not exactly, you know, upset about it.
	She said, Oh no, I don't think that was the one for you sort of thing.
	Um, okay.
	So she allowed you to get into a relationship with a woman that she knew it wasn't going to work out.
	Yeah, correct.
	And she encouraged you, she encouraged you to be in that relationship and, and knowing that it wasn't going to work out.
	I think so.
	Yes.
	Well, no, that's what she said.
	She said, I knew this, this wasn't the one for you.
	Yeah, she said that afterwards, but... I know, I know, but she's, so she encouraged you at the beginning.
	She said, I'm just happy you've got someone who's kind to you.
	I'm happy that you're in this relationship.
	So she encouraged you to go into a relationship with a woman and she knew it wasn't going to work out.
	So you get the low-key sadism, right?
	Oh, yes.
	Yeah.
	And I don't, it's that, um, um, which hasn't set trust and joined by proxy.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Now, what did your girlfriend's parents do to you that was objectionable, or family?
	Her dad was actually pretty cool with me in that.
	Her mother, somewhat, was her brothers and sisters in that they were just
	Shut me down every time I tried to talk and, and, and like, you know, really exclude me from conversations and just like really disrespectful.
	Um, a race thing.
	I think so.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So your girlfriend's family were sort of anti-white racist, perhaps, right?
	Part of it.
	Yes.
	Correct.
	And you know, I'm, I'm, I have an abrasive personality sometimes.
	Yes.
	You have an abrasive personality.
	Sometimes, just to some people.
	Yeah, I'm not sure what that means, but, um, because then why would your girlfriend be with you?
	Oh, because there's other reasons.
	I mean, like to some people, like, I mean, I'm, um, can be kind of, um, have a dark sense of humor and a bit sarcastic.
	Um, and also, you know, I'm reasonably well read and that sort of thing and that, and so people can kind of see it as being a bit of a no at all or a show off.
	I try and dial that back, but it,
	But it does come out at times, and it has been told to me, yeah.
	Okay.
	I mean, you have a bad habit of listening to bad people and thinking they're telling you anything other than bad things, just as a whole, right?
	I mean, the people who get to define you should only be virtuous people, right?
	The people who get to tell you who you are should only be people who are genuinely virtuous themselves.
	Yeah, thank you, Steph, yeah.
	So, did you ever talk with the girl about, sorry, the woman, the Maori woman, did you ever talk with her about having kids?
	Yes, she very much wanted to have children with me.
	Gosh.
	And you dated her from 27 to 31, or 28 to 32, or something like that?
	Sorry, I thought she was in her early thirties.
	My apologies.
	Oh no, my age.
	Oh, your age.
	No, I'm talking about her age.
	Oh, yeah, yeah.
	So, yeah, she would have been, yeah, sort of, like, 27, I think, when we met, and then to mid-thirties when we split, yeah.
	Sorry, not mid-thirties, because that would be longer than four years.
	So, she's 27, then she's 31 or so when you split, is that right?
	Yeah, about that.
	Yeah, yeah, correct, yeah.
	Okay, so early thirties, right?
	Correct.
	So, you took, like, more than a third of her fertility window?
	I said to her that we have to get married if we're going to have children, and she was... Sorry, you said to her what?
	I told her that if we have children, we have to be married first, and she dragged her heels on that.
	Sorry, you said to her, we have to be married, and then how long into the relationship did you ask to marry her?
	I never formally did, but she started talking about children about a year in, and I told her, look, we have to get married, and for some reason... Okay, so did you want to marry her?
	Yes.
	Okay, so if you want to marry her, and she wants kids, and you say we have to get married to have kids, why wouldn't you propose?
	Because she simply wasn't sure.
	She was not.
	Yeah, when she said she wanted to have kids, and I said we had to get married, she was very down on the marriage side of things.
	Oh, she didn't want to get married?
	No.
	If she doesn't want to get married, and she wants to have kids, and you won't have kids without getting married, why would you stay together?
	Good question.
	I guess we're happy together, I guess.
	Yeah, I guess it was silly to stay together that long.
	But I thought that we would work through it.
	What does that mean?
	You have a lot of therapy speak that I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
	Like, we move on it, put it to bed, move past, be the bigger person.
	Are we going to move past it?
	Let it go.
	And it's all of this therapy garbage.
	I don't know what the hell it means.
	So what does it mean to work through it?
	She would eventually agree to get married.
	Sorry, but she didn't want to get married.
	Yes, but she didn't say no.
	Okay, so how is that going to change?
	What's going to change?
	I don't know, I guess... You're like some chick who's like, well, he told me from the beginning he didn't want to have kids, and I dated him for half a decade, hoping that he'd want to have kids.
	Well, she said she wanted to have kids, so... I get that!
	I'm talking about the marriage thing!
	It's an analogy!
	Yeah, so to me, I was like, you know, I guess I was dumb in thinking that, um...
	You know, but it was a values mismatch and I should have realised that from earlier and ended it.
	And did she not want to get married because it's like a white man thing or like, I don't know how the Maoris deal with their pair bonding?
	Yeah, yeah, possibly.
	I'm not sure.
	Like, yeah, I think that might have been part of it.
	It seems really strange to me that you want to have a child but wouldn't want to get married.
	Like, it seems like a child is much more of a bigger commitment.
	Sorry, your audio is cutting in and out again.
	So it seemed to me that having a child is a bigger commitment than getting married.
	So it seemed a bit strange to me.
	So I thought she was, I guess, just wanting to vet me further.
	No, no, no.
	No, no, no.
	No, it's not fadding further.
	Come on.
	Most people got married within three to four months of meeting.
	There's no way you need four years.
	Especially when you're older, right?
	Because then it's not, you know, you know what you're getting, right?
	Yes, yes, yes, yes.
	Okay, so it wasn't fadding.
	Maybe her family didn't want to marry you.
	Maybe they opposed the interracial marriage.
	Looking back, yes, that is probably correct, yeah.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And before the, I guess, before that we're starting to bleed.
	No, because before that we would start, before that you had a relationship in between the six year one in your twenties and then the four year one in your thirties.
	Yes.
	So I did.
	Um, yeah, another long term relationship for like two years, three years.
	Yeah.
	And why did that one end?
	Um, that's a sad story.
	Um, she already had a child with, uh, muscular dystrophy and, uh, that child died.
	And, um, after that child died, um, yeah, we couldn't, um, work through it.
	You dated a woman who had a disabled child from another man.
	Correct.
	Yes.
	Bro.
	Bro.
	You dated a single mom.
	And the disabled part obviously is difficult and tragic, but you dated a single mom.
	I did.
	So, I guess the last thing I want to say is, I mean, do you want to get married?
	Do you want, or whatever the equivalent would be in terms of long-term committed relationship?
	Yeah, absolutely I would.
	Okay.
	Absolutely.
	Are your parents going to be at your wedding?
	No.
	Okay.
	Maybe my mother, but not my dad.
	Okay.
	Did your mother or your father do more damage to you as a child?
	Um, I used to make like a dark joke that my dad, um, you know, never cared about me enough to, to abuse me or to, to, to beat me and stuff.
	So, um, it depends what you say.
	Like my mother was there.
	But, you know, it was, you know, horrible to me and abuse him.
	My father just didn't care at all.
	So, I don't know.
	Well, your mother did more direct harm to you, right?
	Sure, yes.
	And you probably, I mean, you barely survived her.
	I mean, you were suicidal in your teens.
	She almost killed you.
	Yep, yep.
	Yeah, up until a few years later, too.
	Yeah, right.
	So, I just, I don't know if you know the view from healthy people, to be honest.
	I'm sorry to be so frank.
	No, you're right, yeah.
	So, there's a woman who loves you.
	Now, if she loves you, can she also love someone who almost killed you?
	Or who drove you to near suicide?
	No.
	No, because I've got a friendship at the moment with a
	With a woman and, um, you know, and she has that opinion of my mother, um, and that, so, and she's, you know, a pretty onto it person and stuff, so, so no, I think a healthy person with good morals and ethics wouldn't be able to accept my mother, no.
	Okay.
	In fact, she, the more you love someone, the more you hate people who hurt them.
	You understand that, right?
	I do.
	I mean, if you have kids and there's a babysitter who, I don't know, beats them with an electrical cable, do you love the babysitter?
	Absolutely not.
	You hate the babysitter because she hurt your children who you love.
	So you're asking a good moral woman to come into your life.
	To love you and to accept your mother.
	In other words, to love you and also love the woman who forced you to lie, neglected, I assume beat, violence, gaslighting, lying, drove you to the edge of suicide for years.
	You want that woman to have your fucking mother at her wedding.
	Are you crazy?
	Like honestly, seriously, like what the hell?
	If I'm honest, I've given up on that.
	No, no, you just said that.
	Maybe my mother.
	I would love it, but I don't think that's it.
	No, no.
	Don't disown what you just said.
	Don't gaslight me, bro.
	You just said that.
	So it's really annoying when you say, I might have my mother at my wedding, and I give you a case and you're like, no, I've given up on that.
	It's like, come on, don't pretend to me it's that easy.
	Don't pretend to me you just transitioned like that.
	No, no, no, but I don't think I'll ever get married or have children.
	I don't think it's going to happen.
	But if it did happen, maybe.
	Okay, I said marriage, right?
	I don't think I said children.
	Okay.
	So I said marriage.
	Okay.
	Okay, so let's say it's a woman who's in her mid-40s.
	She's too old to have children.
	She's not too old to get married and to be a companion for the next 40 years of your life, right?
	Yep.
	Okay, so she loves you.
	Oh, I'm so sorry, the giving up part, I thought you meant I've given up on having my mother at my wedding.
	My apologies, I misunderstood.
	So you thought I was talking about children, and I was only talking about marriage, and then you brought the children thing in which I hadn't mentioned, and I mistook that for your mother being at your wedding.
	My apologies, we just had some cross lines there, I'm caught up, and we're back.
	Okay.
	So, a moral woman, you say...
	To celebrate my love for you as a moral woman, I want to have, standing in the front of the church, the woman who abused me for decades and drove me to suicide.
	Near suicide.
	I hadn't thought about it very deeply.
	You have!
	Absolutely have.
	You're an intelligent guy who's listened to this show for years.
	You absolutely have.
	I said maybe, but no, you're right, I wouldn't want to either.
	I wouldn't want to either.
	Okay.
	Does a woman, who is going to be your bride, going to be your mother, maybe the mother of your kids if you want them or not, I don't know, right?
	But certainly going to be your wife, right?
	For the next 40 or 50 years.
	Does she want your mother having power over you?
	In the context of loving you and being in a marriage with you.
	In other words, the phone rings, it's your mother, and you pick up and say, whatever you want, mom, I'm there.
	Because that's a lot of what happens, right?
	So, does a woman who loves you want to share you with a woman who drove you to the brink of suicide?
	Not a good, moral and upstanding woman will want nothing to do with it.
	No, absolutely not, because she won't... Like, if you love someone, you can't stand to watch them get hurt.
	And you certainly can't stand to watch them be enslaved.
	See, here's the thing, man.
	To be in a marriage with a woman, you have to be, and she has to lead in some areas, but you have to be a leader.
	You can't be a leader if mommy calls and says, jump, and you say, how high, mommy?
	Like, the woman can't respect you.
	No, no, no.
	And you can't really respect yourself.
	It's true.
	So, this is what I mean when I say, if you want to hang out with your parents, even if it's once every couple of times a year with your mom, a couple of times a decade with your dad, I mean, I don't understand the cost-benefit analysis here.
	It's like, yeah, I totally give up having quality women in my life in order to be rejected by my father every couple of years and traumatized by my mother.
	I don't understand why you would make that deal!
	I guess a coward's way out, or whatever.
	No!
	Stop that!
	Stop just insulting yourself!
	Be curious with yourself, brother!
	I have moved countries to try and stop that.
	I really said to myself, that's it.
	With my dad, that's it.
	That's done.
	Done.
	It's over.
	Okay, my gosh.
	I'm not dealing at these levels of details.
	They're in your head.
	You don't have the barrier in your head.
	And last year you still tried to get something from your father.
	So don't talk to me about moving countries and I'm limiting contact and I don't talk to them that much.
	Yeah, you're right.
	It's a fucking mealy mouth bullshit.
	So look, we're not going to resolve this in this call, right?
	We've been talking for over two hours and I have yet to connect with you the value proposition because the costs of having your parents in your life are clear.
	The benefits of having your parents in your life are clear.
	You get to not deal with your childhood by continuing to think that your parents can give you something good, and you also get to keep blaming yourself for your childhood.
	Right?
	Because if your parents can give you something good, then they could have done that in the past, there was just some mismatch, maybe you have this abrasive personality or whatever, but you just, by thinking you can get good things out of your parents,
	You're blaming yourself for not getting good things out of your parents.
	Yes.
	Right?
	It's your fault.
	You just have to figure out how to pick this lock.
	You've got to try another key.
	You've got to try another combo on the tumbler.
	You've just got to keep working at it because there's great stuff in there, right?
	And so it's your fault that it's not happening.
	So you just get to keep blaming yourself and holding yourself responsible and of course there is no lock.
	There is no tumbler.
	There is no door.
	It's a blank fucking wall that goes on forever and you're just sitting there for decade after decade trying to fucking jam keys into brick and think you're opening a lock.
	So you just get to keep, and I understand as a kid you'd have to take responsibility for these things otherwise.
	Otherwise you would get suicidal and I guess you did, right?
	But so you just taking responsibility in your 40s for having a quality relationship with your parents and I don't know why you'd keep doing that.
	It hasn't worked your whole life.
	It hasn't worked for 42 years and 43 ain't gonna make a goddamn bit of difference except you're older and there are fewer good women around.
	I guess I'm not able to make that case, and I apologize.
	I mean, it certainly could be my deficiency.
	I'm not able to make that case clearly enough to get to where your emotions are.
	You absolutely have made that case.
	But I'm still getting, well, I moved countries and I don't see them that much.
	I know when I make the case in your heart.
	And I know when I don't.
	I've been doing this for a long time.
	So I know when I make a case in your heart and things really click and connect.
	And maybe you can listen to this again, of course, maybe.
	I will listen to it again.
	But no, no, that's merely mouth bullshit.
	You know, making those excuses around... But that's just your parents talking.
	Right, your parents are saying, we're not letting him go and the way we're not going to let him go is we're going to pretend like we're not doing much damage to him.
	No, it's, it's, it's, I need to, I need to, to, to move on.
	And if I'm going to create those boundaries, I need to do it.
	And I have done it with my father and I will do it with my mother.
	You've not done it with your father because at the age of 41, you were still trying to get good things out of him.
	You don't have to believe me, that's why I say I haven't made the case, which is fine.
	All I can do is do my best, and maybe sometimes my best isn't good enough, and I'm not blaming myself, I'm just saying that that does sometimes happen.
	No, the fact that you're saying that you have put these boundaries in with your father is not the case.
	A couple of years ago you were trying to take care of your half-brother, and last year you were trying to have a good dinner with him, so you haven't.
	You haven't.
	Now again, you don't have to believe me, I'm just telling you that that's what I see.
	So, alright, well listen, I really do appreciate the conversation, I really do, and I think you did a great job in many ways, and I really do appreciate the honour of hearing your story, and I do take it very seriously, and I hope that you get more out of it on the re-listen, and I really do thank you for your time today.
	I appreciate it.
	Thank you very much, Stephen.
	Take care, brother.
	Bye-bye.

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