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Aug. 29, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:14:48

5612 My Brother is Marrying an OF Model! Freedomain Call In

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	Hello, Stefan.
	I am the eldest of four siblings and the only daughter.
	My second youngest brother is planning to be married in April to someone who is a huge red flag.
	Three months into their relationship, my other brothers and I sat down with him and tried to get him out of the relationship before it was too late.
	He didn't listen.
	They eventually moved in together.
	They lied about the length of their relationship to get her added on to his benefits through work.
	Um, on top of other things, I now have three dogs.
	I know that this girl has a lot of trauma.
	Her father did commit suicide.
	She was raised by her abusive mom and basically had to raise her younger sister.
	And I do feel bad for her.
	And I want her to get the help that she needs to heal.
	But they're not willing to take advice or listen to any suggestions when I've
	Tried to give them my opinions or I've even shared your work with them to try to entice them to listen to you I'm, very certain that if my brother does marry her he will regret it in the future and especially Her he's in for a rocky future My husband and I have discussed that we will not attend the wedding because we can't support the union And that we do not want to raise our kids around her and therefore him by association we haven't told them this yet, but um
	We're planning to very soon.
	Growing up, my family has always been very close, and I'm being torn apart by this.
	I love my brother dearly, and I'm very scared that if we don't attend the wedding and then tell them that we don't want our kids around them, that it would really hurt him and our relationship.
	He's very sensitive, so that part is tough.
	And then, which would mean that
	In the future, if there's family gatherings and weddings and holidays, et cetera, that they would attend, then we wouldn't.
	And I am afraid that it would tear my entire family apart.
	I don't think that my siblings or my parents have the conviction to stand up to him.
	And one example of one of my siblings' recent response to me when I explained what we were planning to do is he said that they seem happy together and it's his life.
	He has to make the mistakes and learn from them.
	And you'll regret ruining the relationship if you do cut him off and decide not to attend his wedding.
	I would not want to force my siblings or parents to have to choose between me or him when planning events, and I am willing to just forfeit attending things and plan different get-togethers with just my parents or just my siblings, but it's breaking my heart to think about this, and I do plan to have a conversation with my parents about this next week to get their thoughts and to give them a heads-up on
	What we're planning to do, but I want your advice.
	Am I right?
	Am I making the right decision?
	If he chooses to go through with it, do I skip the wedding, but not cut him off completely and still go to family functions so that our children don't miss out on seeing the family all together and they still get to know them.
	We just don't do anything one-on-one with them.
	I'm at a loss because I want to do what's best for my, for my husband and for my family, but I also don't want to lose the family that I came from.
	Please, if you can help me, make the best decision and sort through my emotions before I do anything irreversible.
	I like the high-stakes nature.
	Irreversible!
	Sorry to start with such a silly technical question, but why three dogs?
	Oh, gosh.
	Well, my brother always wanted a dog, and
	Then he got a new place, and he had a girlfriend, and so he was like, oh, I think I'm gonna get a dog now.
	And because my husband and I were married, we had a dog.
	My youngest sibling is also getting married, and they bought a dog, so then he was feeling left out, I guess.
	And then we were like, okay, don't get a dog with her unless you're married, because
	It's like having a child, if you guys split up, blah blah blah.
	They're like, oh screw it, so they got a dog, and then they got another one, and then they were fostering a third one, and then now they're keeping it.
	I don't know.
	No, but why do you have the dogs?
	What do you mean?
	Sorry, I'm still, but why don't they have the dogs?
	They do, they do.
	Oh, sorry, I thought when you said, we have three dogs, I thought you meant, okay.
	Oh no, no, that's them.
	Oh, then now they have three dogs.
	Okay, sorry if I got that wrong.
	All right.
	Okay, okay, okay.
	So, uh, where do you want to start?
	I've had some thoughts, of course, but you know, you're, you're in charge of the convo.
	So I'm all ears.
	Uh, I just, I'm struggling with this because, um,
	Like, my, uh, I don't know, my brother is very sensitive, and, like, I, he has a lot of mental health problems, and I just, like, it worries me, and I know, like, it can't be put on me, that he has to deal with it himself, but I'm just kind of worried about him, and, like, when I tell him this,
	What that's going to do to him.
	And like, I'm hoping that he would go to my other siblings and eventually my mom and then like talk it through with them to come to a conclusion.
	But I'm scared that he's just going to stick with the girl and go.
	And then she's going to be like, well, if they don't want a relationship with us, like, I don't even know.
	I don't even know where to start.
	All right.
	Why don't we start with a word that has troubled me now twice in the conversation, and that word is sensitive.
	Yes.
	My brother is very sensitive, right?
	Yeah.
	You said it in the email and you said it again.
	Yeah.
	Tell me what that word means to you, because it may not be the same meaning that it has for me, but I want to know what it means for you.
	Sure.
	He's just a very emotional person.
	And like, I don't typically see a lot of men cry and he cries when he like is very strongly feeling his emotions, I guess I would say.
	But emotional and sensitive aren't the same thing.
	I mean, my mother was very emotional.
	She got angry, she cried, she yelled, she was full of self-pity.
	So my mother was very emotional, not sensitive.
	Right.
	That's what I want to understand.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And I'm not laying some elaborate trap for you, like I genuinely don't know what you mean.
	Nope, for sure.
	Yeah, I just would say that he feels things very deeply and he
	Um, takes a lot of things to heart and he'll, and he cries and he like, he's just a very, I guess, emotional person.
	Okay.
	So he's like, he takes things very sensitively.
	He's very sensitive to thoughts and feelings of others, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So does he know you're upset about the marriage coming up?
	Um, not yet.
	No, like, I mean, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	He's, but he's so sensitive.
	And you're his sister.
	You're right.
	So surely he would know that there's an upset or a problem or an issue?
	Very true.
	One of the main things, since that conversation where we sat down with him and told him our issue with her, none of the three of us have been able to get him alone to have a one-on-one conversation with him.
	All the situations she has been there.
	Oh, come on.
	Come on.
	I know.
	No, come on, please.
	That is an excuse.
	I'm begging you.
	Don't give me these excuses.
	I know that's an excuse.
	Can you not call him?
	Is he not available by phone?
	He is.
	The two to three times that I did try to call him to talk to him, he was like, I'm at work right now.
	I can't talk.
	And then when I call him at home... Oh, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Sorry to keep interrupting.
	So he's very sensitive and he knows that you want to talk to him about something.
	Yeah.
	So surely he now will make time because, you know, he's so sensitive and he cares so much about other people's thoughts and feelings and he knows that you're desperate to talk to him about something.
	So, of course, he will now make that time and make sure that he helps satisfy you because he's sensitive and caring.
	Oh, sorry, has that not happened?
	I guess not.
	Okay, no, so I'm happy to hear maybe then how you're defining sensitive, I guess, which seems like caring, right?
	I'm happy to hear how you can define that in a different way.
	I'm not sure.
	You're right, you're right.
	I'm not sure how to articulate that.
	I mean, if my wife really, really wants to talk about something, and I keep dodging her, am I sensitive and caring?
	I'm really not.
	What am I?
	Afraid.
	Well, I don't know what I am, but I'm sure as heck not sensitive and caring.
	I'm manipulative and avoidant.
	I don't know what you'd call it, but that's nonsense.
	So I'm trying to figure out, also, if he's so sensitive, wouldn't he... Okay, so give me some of the...
	Fiancés, I mean, you mentioned them in the email, but just let's jawbone it for a sec.
	So, some major issues you have with the fiancé.
	I mean, sure, she's had trauma, but, you know, most of us have, and you can do good things with it and become a better person.
	So, of course, we can't fault her for the trauma.
	And I liked how you did, you know, I got a real problem with her.
	Yeah, well, she was traumatized as a kid, and it's like, yeah.
	So, you go from, like, she's a real problem.
	Well, but here's the most sympathetic thing.
	I can see the ambivalence, right?
	I was like, well, I don't want to totally harp on her because, like, I feel bad.
	That pitbull just ripped my leg off, but, you know, it might have been mistreated as a pup.
	And it's like, doesn't put your leg back on.
	Yeah.
	Just some of the, like, main things that she's done, like, she does, like, OnlyFans, so she's like,
	Selling herself, basically.
	Sorry, I apologize, because I read the email three times, and then you just mentioned it.
	Did I...?
	No, I didn't put that in there, because I wanted to say it.
	You wanted to surprise me?
	I wanted to surprise you.
	Oh, that's so thoughtful!
	Look at you being sensitive and caring!
	What?
	Why wouldn't you say that?
	Yeah, I don't know.
	I sent the email and then I was talking with my husband about, what am I going to say?
	And then we talked about more things.
	I'm like, dang, I probably should have talked to you about this before I wrote the email.
	No, you can send a follow-up email, right?
	You're not limited to one.
	Oh, shoot.
	Well, my bad.
	No, no, it's not a criticism.
	It's just a little jaw-dropping.
	I apologize.
	Again, I'm not complaining like it's wrongdoing.
	I like surprises!
	Okay.
	I've got no problem with that, but it's like, well, you know, it's kind of ambivalent.
	She did have a tough childhood.
	She's kind of half-whoring herself online.
	So there's that!
	Yeah, and I don't know to what extent, as far as I've been told... I pray to God above that you never know.
	Yeah, I pray to God I never know.
	Who wants to see the p***y butt of their sister-in-law?
	That's pretty much a no-one.
	That's nobody.
	Yeah, so she does that.
	She disrespects my brother in the sense of like, she goes out to bars with her guy friends and just wears low-cut shirts to get drinks bought for her.
	She is not small, like she's
	Pretty, uh, like she doesn't exercise or anything.
	Like she's overweight, but she has like the biggest boobs I've ever seen.
	I guess that explains the OnlyFans fisheye lens angle or whatever.
	Okay.
	Exactly.
	Um, sorry.
	How, how overweight would you guess her to be?
	Not counting the boobs for days or whatever we want to call them.
	Um, probably at least like.
	Oh God, I'm terrible at like guessing, like maybe a hundred pounds at least.
	She's pretty short, so maybe it could be more.
	So she's like five, two, five, three, five, one.
	Five, five.
	Oh, she's five, five.
	And what would you guess her weight to be?
	If you don't mind doing it in pounds, that would be excellent.
	Oh my God.
	Um, maybe like 240 or 220, somewhere around there.
	Okay.
	I don't understand OnlyFans, but that's fine.
	I'm happy to go through.
	I'm going to go to my grave and on my headstones like, did not understand OnlyFans.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So she's 240, she's 55, and she does OnlyFans.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And she goes to bars, and gosh, what was it?
	I remember being in a karaoke bar with one woman who had these, you know, Titano boobs, came in, and some guy went up to her and said, were you in a car accident today?
	And she's like, no, why?
	Because your airbags are still deployed.
	Anyway.
	Um, I'm not saying I approve.
	I'm just saying that it was mildly funny.
	So.
	Okay.
	So she goes to the bars and she gets drinks by, you know, flashing the kind of cleavage that could swallow the Titanic.
	And then what else?
	Um, I know she is super involved with like LGBT stuff, like does all the pride parades and she like runs a little.
	And there, and now he's helping her do that.
	She does like her new job that she has started is she's working at the soup kitchen as a security guard.
	So she does that like four hours a day or sometimes six hours a day.
	And so does that mean only fans is not going super well?
	Uh, I guess she's on a medication now that is, um,
	Causing her, like, sex drive to not be so great, so she's not feeling like she wants to do it.
	Like antidepressants or something?
	I mean, if you don't know, that's fine.
	I can't remember the word, but she's got a lot of stomach, like, gut problems, so I think it's something to do with that.
	Ah, that's where her conscience may be.
	Okay.
	Alright, and anything else he said, assuming the crash position?
	Yeah, I'm just trying to think.
	I mean, not that we need a lot more, but...
	She doesn't really have a filter, so when she talks, it's non-stop and it just is nonsense.
	I don't know, she just monopolizes every single conversation.
	That part is frustrating because then we get together and we're trying to talk and it's like, my brother says a word and then she just says like 52 billion words.
	It's really hard to be in any space with her.
	She's a lot.
	Um, and then the other thing is just with my mom, like, uh, she had, they tried to borrow money from my parents to buy a vehicle.
	Um, but they had been not being very good with their spending.
	So my parents said, no problem.
	We'll lend you the money, but we want to see your finances and what you're like wasting your money on.
	And they said like, until the girl, um, gets,
	A job that, uh, is making more money.
	Do you really think you should be spending money on this?
	Blah, blah, blah.
	And then she took offense to that.
	And then basically my brother didn't speak to my parents for three months because of that.
	What does your brother do?
	Uh, he's a welder.
	Okay.
	And makes really good money.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Uh, where did they, where did they meet?
	Uh, online through a dating app.
	Excellent.
	Okay.
	And you don't have to give me, no, sorry.
	Sorry.
	Can I throw one little tidbit at you too?
	I have a feeling it's not going to be a little tidbit, but throw away.
	Yeah.
	Well, just in case it, it helps with anything.
	Um, while she was online dating and just in like that hookup culture scene, she also hooked up with my youngest brother.
	Sorry, I just have to get a little butterfly net, because I felt my will to live leave my body, and I just need to grab it.
	Hang on.
	Yep.
	No, got away.
	Okay, we'll just have to struggle on without it.
	So, she slept with your younger brother, now she's dating another brother.
	Yep.
	Yep.
	Right.
	Yep.
	Right.
	No, I think there was like a year in between.
	I don't care.
	I don't care.
	I don't care if there's four generations between it.
	I don't care.
	Please.
	There's no statute of limitations on brother to brother.
	I know.
	Okay.
	Alright.
	That's all I can think of.
	No, that's interesting.
	Um, I tried to take notes, but my pencil committed suicide.
	So, um, I'll just have to go from memory.
	All right.
	Now, um, your parents are concerned at their possible overspending, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Do your parents know that the woman does OnlyFans?
	Yes.
	And their concern is overspending?
	Oh, no, their concern is that, but when they brought it up the last time it was a big issue.
	Well, that was the issue that they stopped talking to them because my mom had made a comment about the thing that she's doing for work is not really appropriate and is not bringing in good income, blah blah blah.
	I'm sorry, let me just back up a little here.
	Okay, so your mother knows that this woman does OnlyFans and she says it's not appropriate and it doesn't bring in enough money.
	Well, I'm, I'm, I don't want to put words in like in my mother's mouth the way, uh, she's, she said it's not appropriate.
	She wishes that the girl wouldn't do it.
	And what did like, she was just saying that she's not appropriate.
	Yeah.
	Could we just pause on that for a moment?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	My, so my mom, she, uh,
	She and this is yeah like your email kind of hit home or like your response that you put out kind of hit home with this because my mom is very much the kind of person that is like I would rather keep you in my life and have a relationship with you than to have you mad at me and not talking to me kind of thing because I
	Told you something you didn't want to hear.
	Right.
	You know?
	Yeah, this is based on the response that I had on the live stream, right?
	Or shortly after.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, I predicted, right, you'd mentioned this about your brother, and I predicted that it would be your mom who'd have to deal with it, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	So, and your dad?
	I've never been slightly more sweaty-palmed before responses in quite some time, so I actually have to go and get my bike helmet, but go on!
	My dad, from what I've seen or heard, has not really said anything.
	And I could be wrong, it could be something that he's like one-on-one talked to my brother.
	No, no, no.
	We understand that conversations you're not partying off, you don't know about.
	I understand all that.
	And I have no idea.
	But from what I've seen from like, just from my parents' relationship, my mom is more the outspoken one and my dad is very, like, keeps to himself and doesn't...
	All right.
	So when you were being raised, and sorry, there's you and your brother and who else?
	Yeah, I have, I'm the oldest and I have three younger brothers.
	Three younger brothers.
	And, and so, you know, she's only gone through two thirds of them, so there's still room.
	Um, okay.
	So when you were, I'm sorry?
	You don't want to know about the other one.
	They're all a mess right now.
	There's, they're growing up.
	And what's, you don't have to tell me your brother's actual age, his early 20s, late 20s, 30s?
	My, the one that we're talking about?
	Yeah, yeah, the one, the messed up brother, we could do maybe another talk another time, but when that one comes up, let's just deal with the welder.
	I think he's 26.
	Okay.
	Now, when you were growing up, who was responsible for setting standards of behavior?
	Uh, my parents?
	No, no, I get your parents, but which of your parents?
	Oh, my mom.
	Your mom?
	Yeah.
	So how do I square the circle of your mom being responsible for setting up standards of behavior and your mom saying, I can't have any standards of behavior because you might not talk to me?
	That's true.
	I don't know.
	No, it's a genuine question.
	I'm not trying to
	Unravel anything here.
	It's like because you said with regards to your Brothers, is she fiance now?
	Is that right?
	Fiance, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So with regards to your brother's fiance She's like, well, I can't really say anything because he might be upset with me or whatever, right?
	Yeah, so because you know often often it's the dad's job to
	You know, it's the mom's job to keep you all alive when you're toddlers, and your dad's job to, you know, give you some more objective rules, because we tend to be a little less concerned about people being upset with us, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, and it might be like, again, like I'm speculating because my dad had a lot... No, you can't speculate!
	You were there!
	You raised, you grew up with these people!
	Why do you need to speculate?
	Okay, what they mean is like, for the one-on-one dad and son time.
	I don't know... No, no, but you were there.
	And it's not like, it's not like you just have rules only for the sons and not the daughters, right?
	That's true.
	So, when you were growing up, in your experience, how were standards of behaviour established and enforced, or encouraged, or modelled, or whatever, right?
	Okay, yeah, sorry.
	Okay, so we would have, like, family meetings, and we would sit at the dining room table, and both my parents would, like, talk about whatever the issue was, or the expectation, and then we would have an open dialogue.
	But we would not be allowed to leave the table until we had come to an understanding between everybody.
	Uh, right.
	And how old was this from when you can remember?
	Like three or two or four or something like that?
	Or when did that all start to your knowledge?
	Oh, I would say probably later than that.
	Like I would say I was probably seven or eight, like
	Like the earliest I can really remember stuff.
	Okay.
	And give me an example of an issue that would require the family meeting.
	I don't know.
	It doesn't have to be anything, just roughly.
	I don't know what kind of issues.
	Is it like food shortages in Somalia or like somebody stole something?
	Like, what are you, what are we talking?
	Uh, yeah, it could just be if one of us did something wrong, so.
	Okay, good.
	Like what?
	Then, then they would.
	No, no, like what?
	Like what?
	Like what?
	What's wrong?
	Okay.
	Uh, stealing money from someone or stealing a toy or no, I think it was money.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	When we were at someone's house, they had money lying out and it was taken.
	And then we all had the conversation of, about stealing and how it's wrong and like,
	We had to obviously return the money.
	Okay, but sorry, so how was it explained why it was wrong?
	I mean, it could just be thou shalt not steal.
	Are your parents religious?
	Yeah.
	Well, not particularly.
	We did go to church growing up, but it wasn't enforced.
	But they weren't pointing at the Ten Commandments and saying, God's command.
	No, it was more of just like, would you like things stolen from you?
	No, but then again, you contradict that when you ground people from things.
	So, I don't know.
	Sorry, you left a big canyon there with that last thought that I wasn't able to jump with you, so if you could circle back and give me a rope, I'd appreciate it.
	The grounding stuff?
	With grounding, with like taking things away from... Oh, you can steal things, but we'll take your freedom.
	Okay.
	And was the grounding something that was inflicted as part of the family conversations or how did that work?
	Um, no, actually I think they kind of got away from that.
	Like as we got older and we were more involved, like in those conversations, like I just remember being like grounded to your room and that was it when we were younger.
	And then when we were older, they would say like, okay, like this is what was that, what, this is what you did wrong.
	What do you think is a fair punishment for what you did?
	And so it was a little bit more.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	It's very interesting too, because so they didn't yell, they didn't call names, they didn't hit.
	Right.
	Uh, when we were older, yes.
	When we were younger, we did get spanked and there was some name calling, but when we were older,
	That was another, like, we had a family meeting.
	Well, of course, when you were older.
	I mean, of course, after puberty, it's A, creepy, and B, you're bigger.
	So... No, well, no, I'm saying, like, from, like, five years old to, like, ten years old, somewhere in that time frame.
	Oh, so five or pre-five, you're spanked.
	Yeah.
	So my youngest brother didn't get spanked because they had stopped before then.
	But I think the big trigger was I think I did something and I got slapped across the face.
	And then after that, my parents sat down and apologized to all of us and said going forward that they would never hit us again and that we would be having family meetings to decide punishment and that they would not be doing that anymore.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Right.
	And when you look back upon your parents' discipline, what are your thoughts about it?
	And I say this with a very neutral and open mind.
	I'm not trying to, again, oh, it's bad or it's good.
	I'm just genuinely curious what your thoughts are about it.
	Yeah.
	I hold no resentment to how they handled any of those things.
	Obviously, like the younger days when we were spanked, I obviously hated that.
	And how often did that happen?
	Not very often.
	Um, I'd say like maybe a couple times a year, but then it would, um, the boys did get it a little, like the two older boys did get it a little bit more than me.
	Um, but once I did get, yeah, once I got slapped, then they were like, okay, we're done.
	But yeah, no other than the hitting, which they apologized for and we moved past that.
	I would say I think they handled everything much better.
	More conversations, not as aggressive, and just talking about it and realizing why what we did was wrong.
	There was grounding still.
	If you did something with your phone, they would take your phone away for a certain period of time.
	Or like a certain toy or whatever that if you were misusing, they would take that away.
	Okay.
	And sorry, where are you in the birth order?
	First.
	First.
	Okay, got it.
	And how did your brothers as a whole do into their teenage years?
	Um, the oldest of the three did have a rough go and I think it was school, like he was one of three boys in his class and the other two boys were hockey players and he was a book smart kind of guy and didn't play any sports.
	How many people in the class as a whole?
	Uh, 26?
	26?
	Yeah.
	Where are the boys?
	I know!
	This is rather sinister!
	It was, it was, well, we were French immersion and yeah, it was all girls that year.
	Oh, so it was a French immersion school?
	Uh, we were in French immersion program, but it was like a bilingual school.
	It was like a what?
	A bilingual.
	Okay.
	But why does that mean no boys?
	I've seen men speak French.
	I really have.
	Yeah.
	No, I don't know.
	I don't know.
	I just, every, like in that, in his class, he was one of three boys.
	I don't know.
	He just, we just would like, he would just go to school and come home.
	And so it was like his home life or his class.
	And then once he got older, um, and then you had like more, um, elective courses, then obviously like more boys came around, but it was more like elementary and middle school that he had.
	Um, that he only, there was the two boys and they just bullied him the whole time.
	Oh, they bullied him.
	Okay.
	I didn't know that.
	Okay.
	Oh, sorry.
	Yeah.
	So he had a rough go of his teenage years.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Sorry.
	You know, I can't skip past the bullying thing, right?
	No, no problem.
	No problem.
	Okay.
	So at what age that you know of did he start getting bullied?
	Probably in middle school, like grade five.
	Oh gosh, okay, so pretty young, okay.
	So, it's like what, 10 or something like that, okay.
	And then how long did the bullying last for?
	I'd say most of middle school, like, and our middle school was grade 5 to grade 8.
	Okay, so like 10 to 13 or 14 or whatever it is, okay.
	Yeah.
	And then there were just more boys around, he got diluted or?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	And then going to the high school.
	My dad is a high school teacher.
	So, um, I almost worked at like, it almost worked as a protection.
	Like once he reached high school.
	Okay.
	Hold the phone.
	Hold the phone.
	Yeah.
	Your father is a high school teacher and your brother got bullied for years.
	In middle school, yeah.
	And my parents like... No, I understand.
	I understand.
	Hang on.
	I understand.
	I heard the middle school part.
	Was it in the same school your father taught or a different school?
	Different school.
	It was my dad taught high school.
	So your father intimately knows the school system, the administration, anti-bullying policies, the fact that there is bullying.
	He knows all about these things, right?
	He's got absolute insider knowledge of the school system.
	Yep.
	So how on EARTH did your brother get bullied for three or four years, given all the knowledge your father has about the school system and what goes on?
	Hmm.
	That is a good question.
	Um, I, and like, not like my youngest brother also had issues at the middle school and I just like, I don't know.
	They went through administration and like dealt with teachers and they went for after school, like talks with the teachers and stuff like that.
	But yeah.
	Okay, but the problem wasn't solved.
	I know.
	So you escalate, don't you?
	Yeah.
	And if the problem still isn't solved, you go and talk to the kid's parents.
	And if the problem still isn't solved, you change schools.
	And if the problem still isn't solved, you homeschool.
	Like, how do the kids get bullied for three or four years?
	Yeah, that's true.
	And meanwhile, you're having family meetings about right and wrong?
	How about it's right to protect children from bullies?
	That's true.
	Help me understand.
	I'm baffled!
	I, I can't.
	I honestly, like, I don't know.
	Yes, you do.
	Yes, you do.
	Yes, you do.
	Yeah, you know, you know.
	Sorry.
	I know everyone keeps trying to stuff me even after 18 years, but yeah, you know.
	I just, yeah, I'm trying to think of like,
	Like, I know my parents didn't want to hold me.
	Sorry, did you know your youngest brothers were being bullied?
	I also got bullied, but I... It just gets better and better.
	Okay, how long were you bullied for, and when did that start?
	I was also in middle school.
	All four of us, it was middle school.
	Actually, the one that this call was about, he was the one that got bullied the least in middle school, I would say, and then I was
	Well, clearly that's why he's so sensitive!
	The bullies didn't toughen him up!
	Anyway, just kidding.
	Alright.
	So, three out of the four kids of the high school teacher got bullied in middle school.
	Yes.
	And how bad was the bullying of the worst one, right?
	Maybe that was one of you, I assume it was one of your younger brothers, maybe it was you, but how bad was the bullying?
	Like, what are we talking?
	Yeah, like, for me it was...
	Just a little bit of like online back and forth with mean girls.
	And then one girl like pulled down my skirt in the hallway, but it wasn't anything like crazy.
	Um, my, um, the next youngest brother was also just like a lot of verbal abuse.
	Uh, he did get, uh, just call it like he has, I don't know, just calling him names and like four eyes and, um,
	Uh, gosh, I don't even, he never really talked to me about that part.
	I don't know.
	He just, I guess, didn't want to talk about it at home, but.
	Okay.
	Being called four eyes is not exactly like being dangled off a cliff.
	So I just, that's why I'm not trying to minimize it.
	I just want to understand the severity.
	Yeah, no, I just, it was just, he said it was just verbal bullying.
	One time he did get like punched by another kid.
	And I think that happens to just about every kid at some point.
	I was just like, Oh, just boys being boys.
	I didn't really think too much about it.
	Um, and then, um, my, and then the next brother, he's a lot like bigger, bulkier.
	So like, I think he got in a fight once because someone was picking on him, but then he like stood up for himself.
	So then they never did it again.
	Whereas, um, the older brother, he, um,
	Has never really been able to stand up for himself.
	And then the young... I'm sorry, sorry.
	He's never really been able to stand up for himself.
	Okay, so let's say that there's a situation where there's bullying, and of course, you can teach your kids verbal defense skills, but if there's physical bullying, you can take them to martial arts, you can teach them how to box, you can, you know, get them stronger and teach them how to fight, and so that they can defend themselves, right?
	Yeah, he eventually did get into wrestling, I think it was.
	No, no, I'm talking about the time in middle school.
	Yeah, oh yeah.
	Did your parents, who were unable to solve it, I guess, administratively, right?
	But did your parents teach them how to box or teach them at least some verbal arts of self-defense, how to sling insults back, how to humiliate kids and so on?
	Or do you know if your parents talked to the other kid's parents or anything like that?
	I think they talked to the other kid's parents.
	But that didn't work, right?
	Yeah, I don't think.
	I think that just made it worse.
	Okay, so making it worse then means that you're definitely going to need to teach your kids some martial skills, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	But did that happen?
	It didn't.
	And it could have partially been my brother, like he's not interested in that, but he should have been like, okay, I need to learn how to stand up for myself.
	So I don't know why he didn't.
	Take it, take the opportunity.
	Was the opportunity given?
	Yeah.
	And what was given to him?
	My mom has always been pushing us to get into different activities to learn strengths and skills.
	I did a lot of sports.
	I didn't really learn self-defense stuff, but my brother was given the option to do karate.
	To do... Sorry to interrupt.
	So then if your brother doesn't want to learn how to physically defend himself, okay, whatever, I mean, I'm not gonna fault that, right?
	But then you just have to keep trying things till you get a solution, right?
	I mean, the answer isn't just let your kids be bullied, is it?
	No.
	But that was the answer, right?
	Yeah.
	I would say, like, he...
	Did learn.
	And I don't know, like, he's pretty good at standing up for himself verbally now.
	Like he's really like the old question.
	No.
	Okay.
	The other one, one of the other ones.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And the brother, can we just call the brother in question, Bob?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	So Bob was bullied, right?
	Not for very long.
	Cause he.
	Stood up for himself physically.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	But I would assume that there was some loss of credibility on the part of the parents, right?
	Yes.
	The parents were unable to protect their children from the bullies, right?
	Yes.
	Now, the bullies knew that ahead of time.
	That's why your brothers were bullied, because the bullies knew that your parents wouldn't protect them.
	Right.
	So there had to be some bond that was missing.
	I'm not saying there was no bond, but some part of the bond was missing.
	Because bullies, of course, they pick on people who don't have a strong enough bond with their parents that their parents will do whatever is necessary in order to protect their children.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes and like one thing I'll like mention that like I know my parents got into an argument over was like my brother had said something along the lines of like I really don't like this kid because he's really he was really mean to me like growing up or whatever and then my dad had made a comment oh but he's such a nice student for me and my mom lost him and was like how dare you take that kid's side over your own son and they had like a big
	Argument about that and my well, she stood up for my brother and stuff.
	But yeah, like okay, but when was this?
	When he was already like in high school and stuff so long after the bullying your mother decides to stand up for your brother Yeah, well one conversation I was witness to but yes, right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	No, I'm just I'm just trying to figure out what's what's going on here as far as like the
	It's odd that a family that would be doing some, you know, genuinely admirable things, like stopping spanking and trying to reason with the kids and so on.
	I mean, it's still a punishment-based family, which I don't like or agree with, but you know, I mean, it's still, obviously, of the families that I've heard, this is like shining examples of virtue in a way, so I'm trying to figure out what is going on with the teenagers.
	So how was teenage life for you?
	It was good.
	I made a lot of stupid mistakes after I turned 16.
	Like what?
	Like stealing and... No, no.
	You'd had family meetings about that.
	Yeah, I didn't.
	Did you not?
	You were part of those family meetings, weren't you?
	Yeah.
	I think all of the stealing was me.
	Always.
	Okay.
	So why do you think you were stealing?
	Well, I was saying this to my husband the other day, but well, back in the day.
	You mean the man whose heart you stole?
	Still stealing, I see.
	Yes.
	I never got away from that, I guess.
	Um, no, my dad's mom, um, she was.
	Stealing books back in the day and giving them to us as gifts because she was volunteering at a library or something.
	And then all my parents, like my parents and my aunts and uncles found out about it.
	And then my parents told her like, like they cut her out of our lives.
	And they said, we can't, um, associate with you until you deal with all these issues like that.
	That's not something we want to, um, portray for our children, blah, blah, blah.
	So they cut her out.
	And then my brother had said like, Oh, is grandma done her time out yet?
	And so they were like, Oh, well, we don't want our kids to miss out on time with grandma.
	You don't know how much time she has left, blah, blah, blah.
	So they let her back in.
	Okay.
	I'm so sorry.
	I, I, I just, I'm just trying to leave on my jaw off the floor here.
	Because I'm so twisted I make a pretzel look like a pencil at this point in the story.
	So your grandmother takes some books from a library and gives it to her grandkids?
	Yes.
	That is absolutely unacceptable and worthy of banishment from the family!
	Yes.
	OnlyFans, though, is just kind of inappropriate, and you don't want to upset people!
	Oh my god, are you kidding me?
	Okay, I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels that way.
	No, like...
	Help me figure this out!
	I mean, my gosh, libraries, first of all, 95% of the books are never taken out, they're often just piles of them at the back that are going to be remaindered.
	Whatever, right?
	I'm not saying it's fine to take them, but, you know, it's not OnlyFans, so if your grandmother had been doing OnlyFans it would have been fine.
	But she took some books from a library and gave them to her grandkids and that is unacceptable!
	Banworthy!
	Ostracism!
	Simitar through the entire family bond because some books of questionable origin made their way to the grandchildren.
	But that's what I had said to my husband.
	I said maybe because they let grandma back in when she stole that it wouldn't matter if I stole because my family would let me back in kind of thing.
	And I don't know, I think I was just having a... Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Hang on.
	I need to understand this.
	Now, of course, your parents aren't on the line, but you know them well.
	How does this make sense?
	That OnlyFans is fine, as is sleeping with two of their sons,
	As is half whoring around in bars for free drinks with cleavage while engaged to someone.
	Right?
	All of that is fine.
	Or, you know, at the worst, inappropriate.
	But grandma giving some lightly pilfered books to the grandchildren is a crime beyond redemption.
	Yeah.
	No, no, I need to understand this, because there's reasoning behind it, I just have no idea what it is.
	It doesn't make any sense to me either.
	No, no, it will make sense, we just don't know the reasoning.
	Okay.
	How long was Grandma banished for?
	A year or two, I think?
	A year or two?
	Yeah.
	So they refused to talk to—sorry, whose mother?
	Your mom's or your dad's?
	My dad's.
	Okay.
	So your parents refused to talk to your dad's mother for a year or two because of these books?
	Yeah.
	What?
	And I assume you guys had pretty tight relations with your grandma, right?
	She's bringing books to you and stuff like that, right?
	Oh yeah, we had the best time with that grandma.
	She was the best... All my grandparents are divorced and remarried, and out of all of them, she was the one that, like, did everything for her grandkids.
	So, they got rid of the best grandparent, and now are inviting one of the worst conceivable in-laws or daughters-in-law into the family.
	Yes.
	Okay, so come on, like, what's the truth about this?
	I don't know, it's so frustrating!
	Sorry.
	No, no, emotions are fine, I feel them too, like, this is crazy making.
	Yeah.
	There had to be something going on other than this book stuff.
	Well, if there was, I'm not privy to it.
	But I've seen the relationship ever since.
	How is it between your dad and his mom?
	Oh, she passed away shortly after.
	Oh no.
	Oh, that just, my heart just cracked.
	Honestly.
	Yeah.
	That's one of the saddest things I've heard in a long time.
	Yeah.
	We got her back in our lives.
	No, no, not you.
	I mean, obviously it matters to you, but what I'm thinking of is your parents took your grandmother's last couple of years with her grandkids.
	Yeah.
	Over some library books.
	Yeah.
	That is savage.
	Yeah.
	So, she had maybe three years left, and they took one or two of those away.
	In her golden years.
	In her sunset years, they took her grandkids away from her, and then right after, or shortly after she came back into your lives, she died.
	Yeah, I think it was like five years later, she had a stroke.
	Oh, five years later.
	Okay.
	So yeah, right after.
	It wasn't, yeah, sorry.
	It wasn't like the next year or something.
	It was, we did get another like five years, I think.
	Okay.
	And how was her health over those five years then?
	Good.
	Like she seemed like she was overweight and stuff, but otherwise seemed like perfectly fine.
	Okay, so the reason we got into this is I was asking about your dad's relationship with his mom, and you said, well, you didn't see much of it because she died or whatever, but I guess... Yeah, so yeah, that was his mom, and then... You know, you still haven't answered the question though, right?
	It's fine if you don't know, but... Sorry, I don't... I'd like at least for the question to be acknowledged, if that's alright.
	Yeah, sorry, what was the question?
	How was your dad's relationship with his mom?
	Oh, well, before that, they were pretty close.
	My dad, like, I'll go into this whole history thing.
	My dad was raised by his mom alone.
	My grandpa was not in the picture until later in his life.
	So he was very close with his mom.
	Well, why?
	Why this unusual situation?
	Oh gosh, my grandma.
	Did you mail the sperm in and follow by boat?
	What does that mean?
	To be polite.
	I'm not going to be polite, but my grandma was a bit of a whore and she got pregnant with my aunt from one guy and then married my grandpa and had four more kids and then cheated on him and had someone else's kid.
	He left her, and he wanted to be still in the kids' lives, but she, because she was pissed at him for leaving her, said he wasn't allowed in the kids' lives.
	Sorry, just rewind that for a sec, I just missed that last bit.
	My grandma refused to let my grandpa see the kids after he told her he was divorcing her for cheating.
	So my dad didn't really know his dad until he was in his twenties.
	And how old was your dad when his dad left?
	Oh, uh, cheating.
	I want to say two.
	Oh my gosh.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So he was unfathered.
	Yes.
	Well, he had a, uh, a stepdad, but the stepdad was not a great guy.
	Oh, so... and did he like his own father, his biological father, better?
	He... yes.
	Okay, so then he's mad at his mom, I assume, for getting rid of the good guy and bringing in the bad guy.
	Yeah, that would... that would make sense.
	Because, I mean, libraries are giant cathedrals of thievery anyway, because they buy one book and then everyone gets to read it and the author doesn't get paid anymore.
	Mm-hmm.
	So I have a tough time seeing stealing some library books is you know, anyway, so Okay, so your Father had some significant issues with his mother I assume and how bad was a stepdad?
	He was an alcoholic and the Verbally and physically abusive, but my dad like he doesn't say anything about
	Like that he got abused physically.
	Um, I just, like, I actually, like we had a family gathering and I was asking some of my aunts kind of, how was your childhood when you were growing up?
	And, um, my aunts said that the worst, cause they're the older siblings.
	Um, they said that my grandma was the hard one to live with and not the husband.
	And why?
	Uh, just that she's very, um, controlling and like everything has to be about her.
	And I've heard, I think it's you talk about it, about like how like the women are trying, like they think of the, um, their children.
	If a woman is raising children, then they see them as like competition.
	If that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I think that's kind of what they felt was,
	She was very hard on all of the girls, and didn't treat them very well, but then my dad... That's very abstract, hard on, didn't treat, well, hard on the girls, right?
	What does that mean?
	Do you know any specifics?
	Just trying to think of what my aunt said.
	I don't know any specifics, I'm sorry.
	No, that's fine, that's fine, I just wanted to know.
	I just remember her saying that she moved out at 16 because she couldn't handle living with my grandma, and that my dad's a twin, so my dad and the twin brother were like the golden children, because they were the boys, and all the girls were riffraff or something, I don't know.
	All right, so we've got a grandmother who you said was kind of a whore, was that the wrong kind of slutty or like a loose woman?
	Well, I mean, she has all these kids from different men, so I just gotta say that.
	Okay, so you have a grandmother who's sexually irresponsible.
	Please tell me she wasn't short and overweight.
	Yeah, she was.
	Do you see where I'm going with this?
	Okay, I see it.
	There are no coincidences in the unconscious.
	Oh my god.
	How close was your brother Bob to your grandma?
	He was very, very young when she passed away, so.
	Yeah, he can't have been that young.
	No, he can't have been that young.
	I'm sorry, I obviously don't mean to tell you a history, and maybe I'm sure I've got my math wrong, but if she was handing out books to the kids, you had to be of reading age, and then she was gone for a year or two, and then she was back and around for five.
	Yeah.
	So he can't have been that young.
	You're right.
	I never win at math, so this is quite exciting for me.
	So I was in grade six when she passed away and he is six years younger than me.
	So he would have been in grade one.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	So he's like six, five or six.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	But like, cause my, the older brother and I, we were talking about,
	Our grandma.
	And then I was asking the younger two, I said, what kind of memories do you have about grandma?
	And both the youngest two said they didn't have any memories.
	Okay.
	So if your father was raised by a woman of questionable sexual fidelity, I'm trying to be as nice as possible here, right?
	Yes.
	So if you're, I don't, I won't, I won't use the phrase turbo slut.
	Cause that just seems, seems disrespectful.
	But if your father was raised by this loose woman, and he was the golden boy, so did he have positive relations with her?
	Did he look up to her?
	Did he love her?
	Yes, from what I can see, yes.
	And like, because when I talked to my aunts,
	Like, even my dad made a comment.
	He was like, wow, it's totally different, like, hearing your side of things than mine, because I had a great time with mom growing up, kind of thing.
	He would have noticed that his sisters were treated badly, wouldn't he?
	Uh, maybe.
	Maybe he just doesn't remember, but you would think... Oh, come on.
	Doesn't remember?
	Your direct siblings being treated badly for years?
	Yeah.
	I'm trying to, yeah, no.
	Okay, so if he's, I guess, bonded with this woman of loose morals, then what's your mom like?
	My mom also had a rough childhood.
	She had an abusive alcoholic father who ended up in jail, and my grandma
	Uh, like, just like disorderly conduct or something, I think.
	Oh, so not like, like a big time criminal, just.
	No, just like.
	Just spend a night in a drunk tank?
	Yeah.
	Like he was in there for, I want to say like a six month period or maybe two years or something like that, but it wasn't.
	That's more than drunk and disorderly.
	I'm no lawyer, but man, that's like a lot more than drunk and disorderly.
	I honestly haven't asked.
	That's some serious stuff, and almost always requires some fairly serious priors.
	Yeah, okay.
	In my amateur understanding, but anyway.
	Yeah, I didn't ask why.
	Okay, and what happened to your mom when she was young?
	Or what did she do?
	Particularly as a teenager, because before that you don't really have any choices.
	Yeah, well, my grandma...
	Um, so her mom met her now husband, whatever, and they were planning to move.
	And my, both my parents, like they moved around a lot when they were young.
	Um, and so my mom moved around by their parents.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Sorry.
	Um, and so my mom was 16 and she's like, mom, I don't want to move to Montreal.
	Like I want to stay here in Calgary or wherever it was.
	And, um, finished my high school years and.
	Um, I want to graduate with my friends and blah, blah, blah.
	And she was dating my dad at that time.
	And so my grandma was 16.
	Okay.
	And so my grandma said, you can either come with me across the country or you can stay here on your own.
	So she moved in with my dad at 16 and, uh, he's five years older than her.
	So she would have been 22, 21.
	At the time?
	And he was in university for his teaching.
	Sorry, I'm just trying to picture my daughter.
	Right?
	Sorry, I'm just trying to picture my daughter.
	In not too long, in not too many months, moving in with a guy who's 21 or 22.
	Yeah.
	And what do you think of this?
	Well, obviously I
	Well, I would not approve of that for my children, and my mom is still resentful of that.
	What?
	That could refer to so many different things here.
	Of her mom basically giving her the ultimatum and just leaving her, basically.
	Well, hang on, hang on.
	Is it an ultimatum or a choice?
	She said, you can come with me or you can stay here.
	Oh, the ultimatum was that your grandmother wasn't going to stay?
	Yeah, my grandma was leaving whether she wanted to come or not.
	So she passed the 16-year-old into the loving arms of the 21-year-old so she could boot it to another province?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	And this isn't even, I mean, you sound like quite a young lady.
	So this isn't even, you know, like the 1940s or something.
	So, um, so did your parents get married?
	Yes.
	Um, they got married when my mom was 21.
	Yeah.
	So they lived together for like half a decade.
	Yeah.
	My dad finished school.
	My mom graduated high school.
	Um, they dated for
	Whatever, four or five years.
	Sorry, they dated?
	Well, lived together.
	I mean, that's not, that's not quite the same.
	I mean, if I say to a woman, let's go on a date, I don't hand her the keys to my apartment.
	True.
	Very true.
	Okay.
	So they lived together for half a decade.
	They lived together for five years as boyfriend and girlfriend, and then they got married five years later.
	Was that legal at the time?
	I don't know.
	I guess.
	I don't know, man.
	Those statutory laws are pretty harsh.
	I don't think it would be legal now, and again, you don't have to give me any more geographical details, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be legal now.
	Yeah.
	Not sure.
	I doubt it.
	I don't know if those laws changed, but yeah, that would be statutory rape, I think, in many places.
	Yeah.
	Because the age gap is too big, right?
	Yes.
	Because she was a child.
	She was.
	Well, yeah.
	Isn't there a thing, though, that you can move out at 16?
	Well, that's not the issue.
	The issue isn't the moving out.
	The issue is the moving in.
	Yes.
	And the sexual activity with a man half a decade older, who's legally an adult and you're legally a child.
	True.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And did she reestablish decent relations with her own mom, your mom, or how did that go?
	Yeah, my mom and her mom are good now.
	My grandma was at my mom's wedding and she ended up moving back to the area a few years later.
	Oh, she came back anyway.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	But by then it was too, I guess it was too late for your mom to move back in because she was already with your dad.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And, uh, yeah, she, my mom did not have my grandpa at her wedding or her dad at her wedding.
	Um, but since then, like my grandpa did remarry, um, and my mom like had him back in her life.
	At that point, he was like, he met his new wife at like the AA meetings and was getting help and stuff.
	Um, but she has since passed.
	And so my grandpa's alone and my mom
	Tries to reach out like once a week or so to just check on him, but they don't have like a super great relationship, and I don't think she really needs to have much more of one, but she's really all he has, so.
	Okay.
	She makes an effort to kind of be there.
	What's going on with the youngest brother these days?
	He is in a good place.
	He's actually getting married on Saturday.
	Sorry, you said there was a brother.
	I thought it was the youngest who wasn't doing well?
	No, the middle two are not doing well.
	The youngest is in a good place.
	His fiancée is wonderful.
	They're very level-headed and very open-minded.
	They're a lot like my husband and I. Okay.
	So we've got Bob, who's got the OnlyFans goal, and then we've got another brother, you said, the middle two.
	So Bob's one of the middle two, and then there's the other brother who's not doing as well.
	And what's his story?
	Uh, he, he graduated high school, stayed living with my parents for a while.
	Moved out on his own, he's just been kind of like working one job, or like, he's been fired from I don't even know how many jobs, a lot.
	He never got his license.
	Sorry, why did he get fired?
	He doesn't work well with others.
	He is very, um, like once he gets taught a specific way to do something, if there's anyone that cuts corners, he like calls them out in front of everyone.
	He offends people.
	No, I've been a boss.
	People don't get fired for demanding quality.
	Yeah, but it's his, I don't, I don't want to even say tone because he just speaks like most men do when they're like trying to be directive, but
	No, like if I make a mistake in a podcast and someone who works with me says, Hey Steph, this podcast is not up to quality because there's this mistake in it.
	What do I say?
	Yeah.
	I don't fire them.
	Say thank you.
	No, he just like, he'll, he gets to a breaking point where he'll like snap and then he'll yell or swear.
	So it's verbal abuse or yelling.
	It's not demanding quality.
	Yeah, you're right, sorry.
	No, I'm not trying to nitpick, I just, I know that some workplaces can be dysfunctional, but you can't get repeatedly fired for pointing out that a worker is doing a bad job, because the boss is usually desperately, you know, the person who's doing the bad job gets fired over time, not you.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	But, okay, so, and then... Kind of volatile and mouthy and yelly, right?
	Yeah, and then, so he wasn't doing well living at home, and he was like, not respecting my parents, and
	He was just not, I don't know.
	They just, they were butting heads all the time.
	So then, uh, right after I got married, I said, Hey, why don't you come move up here?
	Much to my husband's dismay.
	And I let him.
	Oh, sorry.
	Shortly after you got married, you invited a brother to come live with you?
	Yeah.
	Not a, not a proud moment, but.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	I was trying to.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	If you don't mind.
	Yes.
	Why would your husband say yes to that?
	Oh, have you got a really nice guy?
	Is he very sensitive and thoughtful?
	No, no, he's, well, he is very thoughtful, but, um, no, I, I think he was just letting me learn from my own mistake.
	I don't know.
	What?
	What do you mean you don't know?
	You say, I want my brother to come live with us and you're like, we're newly married.
	I don't want anyone else living here unless it's a kid.
	Yeah, I think, yeah, I know.
	So why did he not?
	Well, he didn't want him to.
	Okay, so why did he then?
	Because you're the team, right?
	You don't do one, you don't do, if I just said to my wife, I want to move to the Yukon, do you think she'd say, we'll go?
	Well, I, I don't,
	I don't know.
	Because I had said, I was like, just for a short period of time, give him a few months to get a job, save up money to get a place, and then he can move out.
	No, but you're newlyweds.
	They rent while he lives here.
	But you're newlyweds.
	Yeah, I know.
	I mean, it could come just down to, I want some privacy so we can make some noise or something.
	I mean, that's like the least romantic thing.
	Let me get my dysfunctional mouthy brother to come live with us right after we get married.
	Yeah, I... Because there's a problem here with male authority, that's why I'm sort of harping on this.
	Yeah.
	Because your father doesn't say boo to a mouse about OnlyFansGirl.
	Yeah.
	And your husband... You guys gotta be terrifying.
	Holy crap, I'm getting goosebumps already.
	Oh no.
	What are you doing to these poor men?
	I was... No, why would your husband not say no?
	I don't know.
	Maybe I just put him in a position where he felt like he couldn't say no.
	Maybe I'm trying to remember... Okay, how do you do that, though?
	Because here's the thing, you're trying to have authority over your brother, right?
	In a sense.
	Yeah, I was just trying to help them.
	But if you guys, if you and your mom, because there's something going on here, like with male authority, right?
	And this is your dad and your husband, and I'm not faulting either of them, I'm just trying to... Oh, you're 100%, you're 100% right.
	And like, that's like, I've told my husband, I was like, my mom wore the pants in the relationship.
	And I need to learn not to do that.
	And like, I will submit to you and like, I'm trying to like work on myself in that sense.
	So when you said, I want my brother to come live with us, you said, I sort of made it so my husband couldn't say no, but that's not possible for you to do.
	Unless you got a gun to his head, which I assume you didn't.
	So how do you manoeuvre things, or I guess how does your mother manoeuvre things, so that your husband and your father can't say no or assert some healthy authority?
	Because your brother, Bob, is being pushed around by the OnlyFans girl too, right?
	Okay, so there's some pushing around of the men that's going on here, or something?
	I'm not trying to call you pushy or anything, I'm just sort of trying to puzzle this out.
	Why do the men not have as much of a voice as maybe they could?
	I don't know.
	I feel like I say all my thoughts.
	I don't know how to... Because there's generally only one reason why men get pushed around by women.
	Because I cry?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Because I cry?
	I'm manipulative with my crying?
	Are you asking me or telling me?
	No, I'm telling you.
	I would say that's probably why, because I know that my mom...
	cried a lot to get her way, and I, like, I'm trying to work on that with myself, because I know that about me.
	No, but, I mean, doesn't, don't men just laugh at that?
	Like, you know, nice try, Waterworks, but let's try reasoning about this.
	Yes, then he has been working with me on that.
	No, no, no, you don't work, you don't work with the woman on that.
	That's begging for authority.
	You can't beg for authority.
	Oh, no.
	You don't give him permission to have authority?
	Honey, can I have some authority please?
	Please sir, can I have some more?
	What is he, Oliver?
	Authority is a bowl of porridge?
	Yeah, I...
	I mean, I remember a friend of mine many years ago, he was living with a woman and the woman's sister wanted to come and live with them for the summer because she had some job or like in Toronto or something like that, right?
	And I was like, oh, how much rent is she paying?
	And he's like, no, she's not paying rent.
	She's family.
	I'm like, but she's working.
	You're giving up a portion of your house, and she's an adult, right?
	She wasn't a kid, she's an adult, and adults pay rent.
	Yeah.
	Oh, I could never!
	It's like, well no, you know, your wife would never, right?
	Yeah.
	But, I mean, sorry, it's not because women cry that men defer to women.
	Yeah.
	Oh.
	I said it's sort of one reason, but it's two sides of the same coin.
	They're afraid of losing sexual access.
	And that's either because the woman won't have sex with them, or because the woman will threaten to leave.
	Right.
	Because women, of course, you know, you're in a marriage, you're in a monogamy relationship.
	And so, if you don't, if you withhold sex, I'm not saying you would, right?
	I'm just saying for women as a whole, right?
	But if you withhold sex because you're upset, right?
	Then, what's he, he's got no options, right?
	It's not a war he can win.
	Because, you know, men have very high sex drives and, you know, 14 times the testosterone.
	I'm not saying women don't have sex drives, of course, you all do, but it's, you know, often a little bit easier for women to withhold than for men.
	To not get access.
	So, in general, women have that, and the tears are sort of part of it.
	Like, I'm so upset, I don't know when I'm going to feel close to you again.
	And generally, the deal is, and again, I'm not saying this is true with you and your husband, but generally the deal is, I'm going to be upset, which means you're not going to get any sexual access or romantic or cuddle affection or kisses or hugs until you give me what I want, and then I'll feel better and closer to you and we can resume our sex life.
	Yeah, I don't... Like, in my relationship, I don't think that is the case.
	Well, but he caves.
	I've never... So, we don't really know, do we?
	No, it's true.
	Like, no, what if he had said... Let's play this out.
	What if he had said, no, no, come on, we're just newly married, you know, we're here to have some fun before the kids come, and no, I mean, no, your brother can't come and live with us, sorry.
	Okay, so then you're upset, and this and that and the other.
	Okay, so then what?
	If he had said no, I would have conceded.
	But you were crying.
	I would have been like, oh, well, yeah, I probably would have cried.
	Like, I just want to help my brother, like, get into a better place.
	Yeah, and I would then say, well, but you're married to me, and your brother's a grown-ass adult, so he can pay his own rent.
	And that's exactly what he said when he kicked him out.
	Okay, but, and how long did you, I'm frightened to ask here, how long did this Remora attach himself to you?
	How long did your brother stay?
	He was not even six months.
	Okay, so you said a couple of months.
	Yeah, he moved up, I helped him get his license.
	You said a couple of months, and your husband had to kick him out after six months.
	So you lied.
	Oh, no, no, no.
	So I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	I miss said that to you.
	I had told him because we were, we had a COVID wedding, so we were planning to have a second wedding, a bigger wedding on the year anniversary kind of thing of our wedding.
	So I said, I had said that point, which would have been eight months.
	And he was out, I think at five months.
	Oh, so you wanted, you said, my brother's going to come and stay for eight months.
	I asked him, I said, this would be the longest point because that's what we had planned to start trying for kids.
	Okay.
	I understand.
	I understand.
	So, okay.
	I withdraw that.
	I apologize.
	That's, that's unjust and unfair.
	So, okay.
	So why did your husband kick him out?
	Uh, cause my brother's a slob and ungrateful.
	Sorry, a slob and what?
	Ungrateful.
	Okay, so if your brother's an ungrateful slob, why would you want him to come and live with you?
	Um... I... Okay, whose idea was it?
	It was my idea.
	Okay, so what problem, and how old was your brother at this point?
	He would have been 25.
	25.
	Okay.
	So he's been an adult for seven years.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Your mother was living with a man at 16.
	Nine years later, this guy can't hold a job.
	No, nine years older.
	Okay.
	So, what was the thinking behind this?
	I don't know.
	I was trying to make amends I guess.
	I was not, like when he was going through his bullying, I was not supportive of him and I was like just kind of in my own world and was like didn't really care about him at that time.
	He was my annoying little brother and so I
	Didn't really care, like out of all my siblings, he's like the one that I was the meanest to.
	But your parents were modeling that too.
	Because your parents didn't go to the mat for him either.
	True.
	But I had started listening to you and I was trying to work on myself and apologize to my siblings for the ways that I treated them growing up.
	And then I wanted to make amends by doing something for my brother.
	Okay.
	Now, did you say to your husband he's an ungrateful slob?
	Like, did you prepare your husband for how your brother was going to be when you were suggesting that he move in?
	I did say that he was messy, and my husband, like, had said, like, he's only allowed to be in his room that he's renting, and I don't want him... Oh, so he was renting?
	So he was paying rent?
	Yes, he was paying rent.
	So how is that amends if you're charging rent?
	Well, I got him the job at the place that I was a manager at.
	What?
	And I was letting him use my car.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	Hang on.
	You got your brother, who always gets fired, a job?
	Yeah, I know.
	I know.
	It was stupid.
	He got fired from there, too, after I went on that lift.
	Of course he did.
	Of course he did.
	Okay, so you got your brother a job.
	How long did he last?
	A year and a half, I think.
	Oh, but that's not bad.
	No, he worked on the overnight shift, so he only had to work with two other people.
	Sorry, I thought you're talking like two weeks or a month or something.
	Okay, so a year and a half.
	That repaid his training, so it's not too bad for your employer, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so you charged him rent and you got him a job, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And he worked there for a year and a half, which is probably one of the longer jobs he had, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	So you told your husband
	My brother is a slob, and he's messy, and ungrateful, and he's not good with people, doesn't play well with others, and your husband is like, okay, then he can come live with us.
	Well, yeah, he wasn't happy, like he wasn't thrilled about it, but he... I don't know, I just explained to him that I was trying to make amends for, like,
	Um, and just try to give him an opportunity to move out of my parents' house and be away from them so that he could see.
	Cause he, I don't know, he's like, Oh, I had a horrible childhood, this and this.
	Um, and then when he has now worked in this new area and he's met people away from home, now he's starting to say, you know what?
	My childhood actually wasn't that bad.
	Um, and like he has now the new job that he has that he
	Um, started since he got fired.
	He's been there for a long time and.
	I don't know.
	He just seems to have matured and grown up a lot in the last three years, but I don't know.
	I just, yeah.
	He was not a great housemate.
	And my husband was like, I've had enough of this.
	What was wrong with him as a housemate that your husband kicked him out after five months?
	No, he just doesn't clean, and he's just not a clean person.
	We had one bathroom that we let him use, and then his bedroom, and then he was in charge of cleaning those, and then he was in charge of cleaning any dishes that he used, but he would just leave his dishes on the counter, and I don't know.
	In charge of having the hard conversations, because I'm not good at standing up for myself.
	Oh no, that's not true.
	Hang on.
	Nice try.
	Sorry, I'm afraid that puck does not get past the goalie.
	I'm so tough at standing up for myself that I can cry my husband into inviting my slob brother over for five months.
	You're fine at standing up for yourself with your husband, right?
	Get what you want from him.
	Right.
	I mean, I think a reason, like you say to your husband, oh, I'm trying to make amends, blah, blah, blah.
	It's like, well, then make amends, but not under my roof, not under our house.
	Go apologize.
	Take him to Disneyland.
	I don't care, but that doesn't mean he lives with us.
	Why would I have to pay?
	For your guilt, as also why would your employer have to pay for your guilt for you hiring somebody who was not particularly a good worker?
	You're making other people pay for your guilt.
	Your husband, your employer.
	It's your thing to work on, right?
	You can't take other people's stuff, like your husband's peace of mind, right?
	So, it's your job, right?
	Okay, you're right So The women the women are getting their way So your husband's okay, so what was what's the soft spot in your husband?
	What's the what's the button there?
	Did your brother do anything that was particularly surprising to you When you were living with him
	Oh, was it all kind of expected?
	No, it was all like, well, because he was working overnights, he slept during the day and then he was awake at night.
	Wait, you got him a night job and had him move in?
	So you guys didn't have to clatter dishes during the day?
	No, but we were working all day.
	Oh, okay.
	So it didn't overlap too much, right?
	No, he would be home alone sleeping while we were at work.
	Got it.
	Okay, sorry.
	But weekends still, right?
	Yeah, he... Yeah, it'd be like the weekends, I guess.
	Okay.
	I'm sorry?
	My husband and I would go out, like we do a lot of biking and hiking and stuff, so we try to keep busy.
	Was there anything that your brother did that was very surprising over the time that he lived with you?
	In other words, were you shocked at the fact that he didn't do the dishes?
	Were you shocked at how slovenly he was or how ungrateful or volatile he was?
	Was it like, I don't even know this person?
	No, because I grew up with it.
	Okay, so was your husband aware of your brother's habits when he agreed to have your brother move in?
	In other words, was your husband surprised at your brother's behavior?
	I don't think he was surprised by it.
	I think he was just like, okay, I've had enough of this shit and just got fed up with it.
	Like doing all the cleaning, and like cleaning the dishes and stuff, and he's like, you shouldn't have to be doing that for him.
	He should be doing it for himself.
	Okay, so your husband had an expectation that your brother would not be a slob, which you knew was not correct, that you knew your brother would be a slob, right?
	So, I mean, you must have undersold the slob aspect of things to some degree for your brother to, like, if you were to say, yeah, he's not going to do his own dishes, he's not going to keep his own place clean, he's going to stink up the place, he's going to be a slob and a mess, like, wouldn't your husband then say, well, I don't want him living here then?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, if I had said all those things, probably.
	Well, I mean, who would, right?
	So, again, I understand it, and I appreciate your concern for your brother, but you must, and I know this sounds kind of esoteric, but I think it's really related to Bob.
	So, you, for the sake of your own conscience, you to some degree misrepresented your brother's dysfunction in order to get him to move in, and then your husband had to have the tough conversation, which only resulted because of the fact that you misrepresented how difficult your brother was going to be as a roommate.
	Yes.
	Very.
	All right, so your husband needs to start seeing that stuff, and I'm sure he does, right?
	I know this is a while ago and all that.
	How long have you been married for?
	Five years.
	Five years, okay.
	Four years, sorry, sorry.
	Four years, 2020.
	Four years, I'm telling.
	Okay, so I get that this was a while ago.
	Now, was your husband at all upset with you and said, you kind of sold me a bill of goods with regards to this guy and how he was going to be lived with?
	Uh He didn't know like he didn't um No, he didn't really say anything with regard to that he just said i've had enough of this crap he's out And I said I understand Kind of thing like we're I understand wait, but do you agree?
	Yeah, I agree like we had talked about it beforehand, okay, so you agreed he was like this
	Yeah.
	Okay, got it.
	Because he had told me he needs to do these things, and then I talked to him about them, and then they still didn't happen.
	So then I was like, okay, I talked to him, he's not doing it, and then he's like, okay, I'll kick him out.
	And then you get the joyful task of cleaning up the slob's bedroom.
	That must have been fun.
	Yeah, yeah.
	All right, so male authority here.
	Who is the most authoritative male in the family structure?
	Who is the male with the most authority?
	In my family growing up or currently?
	No, in my family structure now, aunts, uncles, cousins, grandparents, whoever's around who's still this side of the deep under, I mean, who's the most authoritative or who's the male with the greatest authority?
	I would say my husband is the most, like, outspoken and, like, authoritative one.
	I mean, yeah.
	Like, he's the one that's willing to, like, have the hard conversations in front of everyone, I guess.
	And he, like, gives his opinion and he takes, like, he's good with debating and stuff and...
	Okay, so has your husband had any, what has your husband said about the OnlyFans fiancée of Bob, and has he sort of, you know, whether she's present or not, might be a little bit easier if she's not present, but has he sat down with the family and said, you know, here are my concerns?
	Yes, so we were at a get-together for my, we were at a family get-together a few weeks ago, and we were, just my parents,
	My youngest brother and his fiance and then the two of us and we had like a big conversation about it and he said like these are all the concerns like we need to work together as a group and cut her off or like confront them and like these are the things and like if we can't do it as a collective then we're just gonna do it ourselves and
	He's like, and then he has said to me, he's like, I don't want her holding our baby.
	I don't want our, I don't want to hang out with her or any of this stuff.
	And he's like, and unfortunately your brother is by association.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, no, I get it.
	I mean, auntie only fans would not be much fun for your kids.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And so what happened?
	Um, so my parents are kind of.
	Like what I had said before, they're like, well, he's a grown man.
	He needs to make his own decisions.
	No matter what we tell him, he's going to make his own decisions.
	And, um, like with my mom, like since he had stopped talking to her for like three months, she's like, that was really hard for me to go through, like not being able to talk to my son.
	Like, I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	I forgot.
	Remind me why he stopped talking to her.
	Um, because she offended the girlfriend by, uh, like bringing up her work and that she doesn't contribute.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And yeah, so then he didn't talk to her for three months and she said that was really hard because she would try to reach out and have open dialogue and he would just reject all her calls.
	And then she like drove three hours to the city that he lives in to
	Try to talk to him and he wouldn't even answer the door.
	And is he living together with his fiance?
	Yes.
	And how long have they been living together?
	Uh, would have been the summer of 2022.
	They moved in together with only dating.
	Yeah.
	They were dating for four months.
	They moved in.
	Okay, so they've been a couple for almost two and a half years, right?
	Yes.
	And so your husband said all of this stuff, right?
	And were you nodding along?
	Were you, yes, I'm absolutely with him, 100%?
	Or where were you in this?
	Yes, I agree.
	I agree that I don't want our kids around her, and I agree that we need to stand up to her.
	Why now?
	Why not when he met her?
	Why not before they moved in together?
	I know the wedding's coming up, but it's a little late, isn't it?
	We had kids, and we just, like, we lived six hours away from them, so we haven't seen them, and then they had, like, a vehicle issue, so they didn't have a car for, like, half the year, so I haven't even, we haven't even seen them since last Easter.
	Oh, so this isn't much of a relationship anyway?
	Exactly!
	So, what's all the fuss?
	Sorry, but I thought that you were, like, handing love with this brother!
	You don't talk?
	You don't see each other?
	I'm sorry, I'm trying to understand what's going on here.
	We don't see each other very often.
	We haven't seen each other very often this past year because of just circumstantial things.
	But you had kids, right?
	Yes, we had kids.
	Okay, so isn't he calling to find out how the kids are doing and maybe make goo goo noises and read stories?
	Like, isn't he... Uncle-ing?
	No, none of my siblings do that.
	So none of your siblings have relationships with your kids?
	Yeah, it's more of like, if I'm going to, like if they're, because we live so far away, it's like, I'm always the one- No, no, no, the far, oh my god, I can't do this anymore, you can't stop using this far away shit, come on!
	How close are you and I?
	Are we in the same room?
	Come on, this is ridiculous.
	I love you like a sister, but you can't keep feeding me this nonsense.
	You're right, you're right.
	Okay, so it's got nothing to do with distance.
	Look at all this technology.
	You know, people kept marriages alive through letters.
	We've got instant video calls cropping out of everyone's ass 24-7, okay?
	So it's not a distance thing.
	Do you find that it's a guy thing, though?
	Just looking at like my dad and his sisters, his sisters will always call him to stay in touch.
	He's not always calling them.
	And I just find that that's the relationship with my brothers too.
	It's like, I have to be the one to reach out first.
	No, it's not a guy thing.
	Guys are totally fine.
	Guys are totally fine at keeping relationships alive.
	I'm in fact going for dinner this week with my college roommate from 30 years ago.
	Okay, so it's a my family thing then?
	Well, I mean, I know, it's not a guy thing that guys don't keep in contact.
	I mean, half, you know, 95% of the letters preserved through most thinkers are men writing to men.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I don't know.
	It's just the men in my family, I guess, or my siblings, I guess, I don't know.
	It's very rare other than, like,
	Sorry, but okay.
	So, you have two kids, is that right?
	Yes.
	Well, congratulations, of course.
	And how old are they?
	Two and six months.
	Oh, beautiful.
	Okay.
	So, you care enormously and devotedly and madly about your children, right?
	Yes, more than anything.
	Your brothers don't.
	Yeah.
	And that's just a basic fact.
	How much conversation or, I don't know, baby photos?
	I know it's like pretty tough to have a conversation with a six month old, but you know, two, you can start to have a couple of chats here and there, right?
	Maybe even sooner than that.
	So what interest are they?
	You said they're not showing any interest in your kids?
	Uh, well, when they're around them.
	So like when my, when we have.
	Family get togethers and stuff like that, then they're like down on the floor and playing with them and stuff.
	Um, but yeah, other than that, like, I don't know, my husband and I are very protective of them.
	So we're just, we're always either holding the one or we're sitting really close with the other one.
	And there hasn't been a ton of, like, I've, I've gotten together with a few of my siblings here and there, like we've gone over to my
	Youngest sibling's house, and she's played there, but... I don't know, we've stuck pretty close to home and just... I don't know.
	It's more of like a... I'm just waiting for the word salad to end so you can let me know when you're done.
	I'm done.
	Okay.
	So your brothers don't take much interest in your kids when they're not directly in front of them.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And you live a long way away.
	Yes.
	And do they check up on you, and how you're doing, and how you're doing postpartum, and how you're doing with breastfeeding?
	Like, any sort of basic caring stuff that people do?
	Not particularly, no.
	Okay.
	So, there's no real relationship?
	Okay.
	No, I'm not trying to tell you that.
	I'm simply identifying that, as far as I can see.
	I mean, if people don't... If I have to be right in front of people for them to notice I exist, and I live a long way away, it's not a real relationship!
	Is it?
	You're right.
	So, I'm... I'm just trying to figure out this... You care a lot more about people who don't seem to care that much about you.
	Like this is with your brother moving in, right?
	Like, oh, I gotta help my brother, and it's like, well, your brother should repay that with gratitude and help.
	Making things really difficult for you when you're newly married, that's unbelievably selfish.
	You got him a job, you're putting him up, and he's making life difficult for you and your new husband?
	That's abominably selfish!
	So what's all this caring for people who don't seem to reciprocate much at all?
	Help me follow that.
	I don't know the best, like, I don't know.
	I don't know why I just, I know it's not my job because I'm not their mother, but just like being the oldest and the only girl.
	I was kind of... I kind of feel like a mother to them sometimes and I know I shouldn't be.
	No, no, no, I get that.
	You have a mother.
	They have a mother, right?
	They have a mother, they don't need a mother.
	Now, does their mother ever say to them, listen you lazy fan-ass male bums, get off playing video games and call your sister.
	She's had a baby, see how she's doing, you bums?
	Uh... No, I guess not.
	Or your dad!
	I guess not, no.
	Well, have you ever heard of such a thing?
	I haven't, no.
	Okay, so your mother has not instilled in them any basic social graces.
	Maybe that's why one of them's a welder and I don't know what the other people do, but your mother doesn't seem to have instilled in them, you know, here's some basics about how you can tell other human beings that you care that they're alive.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And they don't seem to have figured that... I mean, this is not Newton, this is not Einsteinian physics here, right?
	If your sister's had a baby, you call and see how she's doing.
	Yeah.
	That's not a male thing, or female thing.
	That's just a basic politeness thing, or any kind of relationship thing, right?
	Right.
	Yeah, I don't really hear from them much unless I initiate the conversation.
	Okay, so they don't care, particularly.
	And I don't want to hear this platonic, but deep down in some other dimension, it's like, no, I judge actions, I can't judge intentions or hidden thoughts or secret chambers, right?
	Yeah, I hear you.
	So they don't care that much.
	It's hard to hear, but you're right.
	Well, I'm not trying to tell you something, but simply reflect back to you what you've told me.
	Yeah.
	And what I've, what I've, sorry, what I already do, but just trying to suppress, I guess.
	Okay.
	What about your parents?
	They all, yeah, they're, we talk like every week.
	Oh, so you and your parents, you and your mom and dad talk every week, right?
	Yeah.
	And have you ever told them, or do they know, that your brothers don't contact you?
	Uh... I mean, it's their job to know, right?
	They're parents.
	Yeah.
	No, I... I don't know, like, we'll check in, I'll be like, oh, I talked to whichever brother recently, and they'll be like, oh, and how's he doing, kind of thing.
	What would they be doing?
	Wouldn't they know?
	Yeah, well, my mom tries to reach out sometimes, and then my brothers just won't answer.
	And then, so, like, the brother that's living closest to me that had moved in for a while, he, like, only reaches out to my parents when he needs something, and otherwise he just doesn't really... Okay, so why are the boys this disconnected and selfish, do you think?
	It's your dad connected and selfless?
	Selfless, you know what I mean.
	I don't mean this, like, no identity.
	I just mean, like, not just contacting people when you want something.
	Yeah.
	I don't know what my dad does.
	Can you rephrase it?
	Okay, how emotionally available and close and connected is your father to his sons?
	I would say not.
	Okay, and why do you think that is?
	Because, I mean, sons need that from their fathers, right?
	They need the modeling of masculine passions, masculine emotions, masculine attachments.
	They're different from feminine, right?
	And they're complementary and so on.
	So, your father is not close to his sons?
	Not particularly.
	Like, again, he'll message us.
	He'll message them and I'll just like let them know if something's going on.
	But as far as I know, he doesn't like, uh, like just check up on them to say how you're doing.
	And even with me, like he doesn't really say, how are you doing?
	Kind of thing.
	Like he'll like text me and be like, put this date in your calendar, blah, blah, blah.
	And then when I respond, then he'll start a conversation about something or
	They're like, oh, how are things going with the girls, or blah, blah, blah, blah.
	And so maybe it's because my brothers just respond with okay, then he just leaves it at that, and he doesn't go more into it.
	Sorry, when did you, as the oldest, you have a unique position to see this, when do you think that this self-absorption or lack of connection began to emerge in your brothers?
	I honestly, I think when they graduated and then they were kind of on their own, that they were like, or it could have been sooner, but like I moved out and then we weren't as close.
	Let's go back.
	Let's go back.
	So when, when they were young, were they connected and affectionate?
	Yes.
	Okay, when they were early teens, connected and affectionate?
	The younger two, yes.
	I'd say the oldest of the three was not very affectionate.
	So that began to diminish after his early teens?
	Probably the bullying.
	I'm not asking the cause, just the time frame.
	So was it the case that all three brothers got into their early to mid-teens and got kind of cold-hearted and distant?
	Just the oldest.
	The other two, I would say it was more so after high school.
	Oh, so they were connected and affectionate, and then after high school?
	Yeah.
	They got colder and more distant?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And did your father notice this, or did your mother notice this occurring in their children?
	Or did they ever talk about it?
	You know, gee, they used to be so nice, and they used to chat, they used to give me hugs, or like, did they notice this lack of reciprocity, this distance, this kind of self-absorption, this whatever, right, this loss of connection?
	They never said anything to me about that.
	And did you ever bring it up saying I've kind of noticed there's this distance or anything like that?
	I have said to my mom kind of the thing of like I only ever hear from them if I reach out and it gets frustrating to be having a one-way relationship.
	And when did you do remember roughly when you first said that to your mom?
	Probably after I had my first child.
	Oh, so pretty recently, right?
	Yeah, because my husband's sister and mom and everyone was, like, texting me all the time, asking and, like, making a point to come see her.
	And, like, my brothers, like, didn't even message me or call me or anything.
	I'm so sorry.
	That's, you know, and just for people listening to this, and I don't want to speak for you, of course, my friend, but for people listening to this,
	If you don't stay in close contact with people who are new parents, they will never forgive you.
	It's a hole that can never be sewn back up.
	No, and I mean, I've been in this situation, and again, I don't want to speak for you, and if I'm not speaking for you, you can tell me, but I think I am, but I'm not going to say that for sure.
	Because having a child is such a wondrous experience, it's so incredible, it's so deep, it's so powerful, it's so magical.
	That if you don't share with new parents in that experience to whatever degree you can, and there's no amount of fascination and fear and love and interest, the parents don't get tired of expressing that, right?
	Yeah, I could tell my birth story a hundred times!
	The wonder of having a new life in your house is so unbelievably incredible that if you miss that window of connecting with new parents, nothing that you say later means much at all.
	And please, please, I'm begging anyone who listens to this, if there are new parents in your life, share their obsession.
	Because it's so profoundly and fundamentally life-changing that if you don't participate in that journey, you end up with nothing in common.
	Or almost nothing in common, other than some shared history or whatever.
	So, I just, you know, I found it kind of heartbreaking when I had friends of like 20 or 30 years, you know, I had my wife and I have Izzy, and, you know, we didn't get any messages for weeks, really.
	And I'm just like, like, I'm sorry, like, I don't have anything in common with you anymore.
	And I was never able, like, now we're generally friends with parents, because I don't know if non-parents don't get it, but I guess, I mean, there are certainly non-parents who get it in your life, but, yeah, if people, like, first of all, go over and help them as much as possible, and support them as much as possible, and share their love and their fascination and their curiosity, get to know their kids, play with their kids, and if you're long distance, at least be on the phone, you can make funny faces to a two-year-old on the phone, or even a six-month-old, or whatever, right?
	And you can
	Read them stories and, like, you can do cool stuff with them, even from a great distance.
	And, like, just absolutely do it.
	Absolutely do it, because if you miss that window, it never reopens.
	Like, now, okay, you've got a kid who's two.
	What if they're like, hey, I want to get to know your kids?
	It's like, well, why now?
	What do you want now?
	Like, you must want something!
	Yeah, exactly.
	Are you dying?
	Do you need a place to live?
	There's something, right?
	So, yeah, I just wanted to make that little speech, like, don't let that window pass by, or you're gonna end up with almost nothing in common.
	Okay.
	So, your parents haven't noticed the distance, and what does your mom say when you say, my brothers don't contact me?
	Well, that's where she had said, like,
	Well, it's kind of similar with your dad, like it's always his sisters that are contacting him, or the sisters and I will stay in contact.
	And your dad is never the one to make the first phone call with his sister.
	Okay, so your brothers are just doing what your dad did, right?
	Yes.
	The women in your family have allowed the men to get lazy and disconnected.
	That sounds right.
	And they do that because the women are anxious about relationships and keep them going because they feel bad otherwise, not for the value of the people involved.
	Like, why did you want your brother to come and live with you?
	Because he's such a great guy.
	No!
	For guilt!
	Yeah.
	And why did you get him a job?
	Because he's such a great employee?
	No!
	For guilt!
	And obligation.
	It's not about your brother, it's about you.
	That's true.
	And then everyone says, well, you know, the brothers are kind of selfish.
	It's like, but if the women as a whole are running everything based on guilt and shame and obligation and appearance and whatever, right?
	That's not about the people themselves.
	Great.
	And if you can't find direct connection and value in the people themselves, what's the point?
	Oh, it's been so long since I've called this person.
	I better call them out of guilt and obligation.
	Gosh, can you imagine?
	Can you imagine if somebody called me out of guilt and obligation and shame and sad?
	I'd be like, ew!
	Go to a therapist!
	Don't pretend that it's about me!
	Hi baby, I'm on the phone.
	Look at that, I just heard more of your kids than your brother have.
	Or your brothers have.
	So, okay, so... The women are running things...
	For guilt and shame, rather than for the people themselves, which is alienating to the men because the men don't feel accepted and loved for who they are.
	So because the men don't feel accepted and loved for who they are they don't have to be better or do better and they actually feel some resentment for contacting the women because the women only contact them out of guilt and obligation rather than out of genuine love and curiosity.
	So they're mirroring the distance that the women have because the women are running off obligation rather than love and they're actually accurately mirroring the lack of emotional content in the relationships because the women aren't loving the men for who they are but simply contacting them out of obligation.
	Sorry, that was highly compressed, but I hope that made some kind of sense.
	That made sense.
	A lot of sense.
	So, the relationships are not personal, but transactional.
	Transactional relationships are fine, it's just that they tend to be economic based, right?
	Like, I go to get a coffee from a coffee shop, they want my three bucks more than they want my three bucks, and I want the coffee more than they want the coffee, so we trade.
	That's a transactional relationship, right?
	And, you know, my friends, my wife, and my daughter, like, it's not a transactional relationship, right?
	I don't have to spend money, it's not, like... So, there's a transactional set of relationships at the core of the family, which is about self-management through guilt and obligation, or shame, or history, or whatever it is.
	Yeah.
	And so, this is probably why
	This is probably why everybody's having a tough time condemning the OnlyFans girl.
	Because at least she's honest about the transactional nature of her relationship with her audience.
	Yeah?
	If your brothers weren't your brothers, would you be in touch with them?
	In other words, if you just met people who happened to be just like your brothers or whatever, at some social event or social gathering, would you want to stay in touch?
	With my youngest brother, yes.
	Okay.
	The other two, really, we don't really have anything in common.
	Well, and they don't sound like particularly nice people or helpful people or thoughtful people or whatever, right?
	Not particularly virtuous or noble or whatever, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So then you have a problem, which is you don't really like them, but you feel guilty if you don't contact them.
	Yeah.
	Now, you don't solve the problem of not liking them with guilt, right?
	That's just two wrongs trying to make a right.
	Right.
	I don't like them, but I'm gonna punish myself with guilt if I don't contact them.
	Like, you don't think that men understand that deep down?
	I never really thought about it, but yeah.
	They, they understand that.
	And they also get the unearned, which is that they don't have to earn contact from you by being nice, thoughtful, or helpful.
	You'll just contact them.
	They just know.
	Right.
	So it's like, well, why the women are all running around contacting people out of guilt and obligation and appearance.
	So the men don't have to improve.
	It's just like the welfare state or something.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	It's all subsidized.
	Yeah.
	And I think definitely like.
	I like it it won't be an issue for me to just like cut contact and not like and not text or answer calls or whatever because we're not really talking anyways but I like the one I was just
	I don't know.
	Your concern is the splash damage, right?
	It's the complications with family gatherings and also, if you cut your brother, then what is your relationship with the people who don't, right?
	Yes.
	And then the dysfunction still flows and affects you, right?
	So, let's say, I mean, things are going to go horribly with this fiancé, right?
	And so, then you're just going to get the splash damage as, let's say, your brother complains to some other family member and then you hear about it through that family member and it's like,
	That really hasn't helped you much at all, right?
	Exactly.
	Right.
	So, I mean... The problem is, the marriage is when?
	In April.
	Okay, so you've got some time.
	You've got eight months, nine months, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And has your brother expressed any doubt or concern about marrying this woman?
	Not too far.
	I had my first, like, alone conversation with him for 20 minutes a few weeks ago and just kind of was asking him, like, about his life and what she's doing and I'm like, and then when he brought that up and I was like, how are you okay with that?
	Like, um, it's so- It's kind of accusatory, right?
	How are you okay with that?
	I mean, don't you have some genuine curiosity?
	Like, okay, but how are you squaring this, or how do you think this is going to affect your kids?
	You know, your kids are going to go to school, someone's going to find this, you know?
	I mean, with AI and reverse imaging, it's pretty tough to hide things, and once on the internet, forever on the internet, and that sort of stuff, right?
	So, how are your kids going to handle this, or like, you know?
	Yeah, I didn't articulate that very well.
	I mean, and what if he ever wants, you know, a life post-welding or something?
	I don't know, he wants to do something else with his life that might be slightly more refined, that's gonna be a real liability, right?
	I mean, he could get blackmailed, I mean, there could be any number of negative things, and this isn't like, how dare you, like, this is crazy, how can you be okay with this accusatory?
	It's like, you know, how do you think this is gonna play?
	Like, how's this gonna work for you?
	I mean, because you're making decisions for your kids, fundamentally, not for you, right?
	Now, it sounds like she could, you know, has the torpedoes to breastfeed most of West Africa, but how are the kids going to deal with an OnlyFans mom, right?
	And, you know, there's lots of articles out there of, like, kids who are relentlessly bullied and shamed because of OnlyFans moms and all that kind of stuff, right?
	And it's always going to be in the back of his mind that even if she shuts her account down tomorrow, there's still lots of people out there with the video and footage and could upload it anywhere.
	And again, reverse image searching and all of that kind of stuff, it's, you know,
	It's dead simple to find this kind of stuff, right?
	So, this is going to be a vulnerability, and you're not choosing a wife as much as you're choosing a mother for your children.
	My suggestion would be something like, in general, I think as a whole, you kind of have to choose your wife like your kids get the deciding vote.
	Right.
	Not your lust, you know, which I understand.
	There's nothing wrong with lust.
	Like, not just your lust, or whatever it is, right?
	Or how cute she is, or how funny she is.
	But your children are the product of the marriage, and your children don't have a voice.
	So, in choosing who to marry, you kind of have to choose on the basis of what your children would choose.
	Because you're advocating on their behalf, right?
	Now, of all the women that you could date, or could get married to, or could have children
	Would your children choose this lady or this woman as their mother?
	And I can't answer that for you directly, that's just something to think about.
	Because you're choosing on their behalf, right?
	Like if I go out and you say, get me a meal, I'm gonna try and figure out what you want, right?
	I'm not just gonna bring some food home that you hate, right?
	I'd be like, oh yeah, I remember you like Philly cheesesteaks, I got you a Philly cheesesteak, right?
	So if you ask me to choose on your behalf,
	Then you want me to choose in accordance with your preferences, right?
	I'm going to choose, you see, if you hate butter chicken, I'm not going to come home with butter chicken and say, well, like it or lump it, right?
	And you're choosing your children's mother on their behalf, right?
	And so, what would they say?
	That's the most important thing, because that's really where they're going to have to live with it, right?
	Because you get the choice, they don't, right?
	And so, are they going to want a mother who is, you know, she's quite overweight, and I understand there's a certain kind of body type, and I accept all of that, right?
	She's quite overweight.
	So, she's not really going to be able to play with them at the playground, she's not going to be able to roll around on the floor with them, she's not going to be able to, you know, just do this kind of stuff that's, you know, pretty important.
	You know, I hate to be this, oh, I have young kids, and so I know.
	But, you know, I do have a little bit of experience this way.
	She's really not going to be able to roll around.
	The other thing, too, is that this is what she weighs pre-babies, and, you know, I'm not saying she's going to swallow the entire fat grenade, but, you know, sometimes women gain a lot of weight after babies, they gain a lot of weight after getting married, and, you know, what may be, you know, I guess, pleasingly plump now might become dangerously obese in the future, and that can be an issue as well.
	And, you know, I suppose one of the things that I have some concerns about, and again, I'm open to all the counter-arguments, this is just my thoughts, is that I don't know that she's thought about the choices she's making and the effects on her kids down the road, down the line.
	Because I think that she wouldn't, in general, because kids don't want OnlyFans moms.
	I think we can, especially boys, but girls too, right?
	I mean, you don't want OnlyFans moms, and she's kind of made those
	Those choices.
	The obesity has got health issues, you've got knee issues, back issues, especially with the breasts and all of that.
	And fertility issues, right?
	I mean, it can be tough if you're significantly overweight, and I think she is, right?
	It can be tough to get pregnant and all of that.
	And there's lots of health issues, you know, she's cutting her lifespan short by quite a number of years, if not decades.
	You know, I don't want to be as simple as like, well, you can do better and all that, because, you know, she's funny, she's charming, she's got some, you know, real qualities.
	And I'm not gonna, you know, you're not an idiot, right?
	I mean, she's got some real qualities.
	But I suppose, I guess my big question is...
	You know, I'm going to have to answer to your kids, right?
	Because if you have kids with this woman, they're going to have some significant issues with your choice.
	They just are.
	Just as you would.
	I mean, imagine if mom was some Only Fans model showing her butt to strangers on the internet.
	You'd have some problems with that, right?
	And so at some point your kids are going to come to me and say, I got some issues with mom.
	And I'll be like, yes, I share those issues.
	And it's like, well, did you support the marriage?
	And it'd be like, I, you know, I want to have my conscience clear and say, look, I, I did have some conversations with your dad.
	I did sort of point out some of the challenges and I did it in a nice way and so on.
	And he decided to, to go ahead, but I did.
	Really unpack my heart and share my thoughts with him, because I really wanted what was best for you guys.
	So again, I'm obviously just making that up off of the cuff, but it's something like that as a whole.
	To share your concerns, but without the, well, how are you going to handle this?
	And how are you going to handle that?
	That's just going to make people defensive, right?
	And maybe he won't listen to any of that.
	Maybe he'll just get off and, you know, you hate true love and storm out.
	I don't know, but it's really, it's your conscience that has to be clear.
	Like, for me, and again, I'm sorry to make this about me after you have these Selfish Brothers, but for me, if I make my case and someone goes ahead and does something stupid anyway, my conscience is clear.
	And this is not to make it about me, but fundamentally, I have to please my own conscience or I can't be good for anyone, right?
	That's exactly what my husband said, too.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah, I think if you make your case, as calmly and reasonably as possible, and, you know, you may have to grit your teeth and see the OnlyFans.
	Because OnlyFans could be anything from bikini shots to, I don't even, I don't know where the bottom of OnlyFans is.
	I know I have an account there, but I've never looked at the site.
	But I'm pretty sure that there's not a bottom to OnlyFans.
	I'm pretty sure it just keeps going down to death.
	You may need to grit your teeth and see what you're dealing with.
	And if it's just, I don't know, some bikini shots or bikini photos or whatever, that's one thing.
	And if it's like, I don't know, some hardcore nonsense, that's a kind of different thing.
	So that may be something you might need to grit your teeth and do just to see what you're dealing with.
	But yeah, I think if you make the case...
	Then, you know, if he rejects your good counsel, then he's rejecting you, and he's choosing his path.
	And if people reject my good counsel, they're obviously perfectly free to do that, they can do whatever they want, but if they're going down a dark path, and I tell them, don't go down this dark path, and they're like, screw you, I'm going, I'm like, then you go alone.
	Right.
	Like, I have my kids to think of, and you have your kids, so you can't go down this path.
	You can't go down this path, you've got kids!
	Right, because that path is gonna interfere with your parenting with your kids, and as you know, nothing is more important than your kids.
	Like, every decision you make is what's best for my kids, and if my brother gets married to a turbo skank, then
	Dealing with that, that chaos, that drama, those problems, that mess, that cheating, that whatever, whatever ugliness is going to happen, it's going to interfere with your parenting.
	You're going to be less emotionally available to your kids.
	And it's like, look, if I warn you against this, and then you go down this path, and you go down this path, if I stick around, that interferes with my relationship with my kids.
	It's like, you're so disposable, you're like 40-year-old Kleenex.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Would you recommend then with like things like Christmas that I just make a plan with my own parents and just say my family will come down to visit you for Christmas or you can come up here but and just leave it at that and just try to make our own?
	So you're asking how you handle things not this Christmas but next Christmas?
	No, like this Christmas too, because we're going to have this conversation that we're not going to their wedding in April.
	Well, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Have you made the peaceful patient case?
	That I just made in, obviously not in my words, but in your words.
	You're right.
	No, I haven't yet.
	Okay.
	So you're asking on the other side of an intervention 18 months from now, what should you do?
	It's like, I don't know.
	So many variables.
	You're right.
	If I have to at least try first.
	Yeah, and I mean, ideally it would be face-to-face.
	I get that it's a long way to go, and I personally wouldn't put a huge amount of effort into that, but you know, I mean, at least make sure that... And you know, if he keeps dodging your calls and won't have the conversation, then it's like, okay, well, then your conscience is still clear, right?
	Yeah, you're right.
	Because you wanted to have the conversation, you can't force him to have the conversation, and if he won't have the conversation, at least your conscience is clear at that point, right?
	Because you've got to have a clear conscience, because your kids are going to ask.
	They're going to find out about all of this when they get older, and they're going to ask you questions, right?
	Why are we not in touch with so-and-so?
	Why are we not?
	It's like, you know, well, obviously, here kids, I'm not going to show you the OnlyFans, but here's all the arguments that I have.
	Here's all the arguments.
	I did my best.
	I tried the conversation a couple of times and, you know, your dad was with me and, you know, we really did try and make the best case.
	But, you know, you can't control people and sometimes they're just going to make bad decisions.
	And the people who are going to have to pick up the pieces are the people most responsible for the issue, which is your parents.
	The distance of your father and the fact that your mother, right?
	Why did your mother get back in touch with your brother who cut her off for having some issues with his OnlyFans fiance?
	Why did you, you already told me two or three times, why did your mother get back in touch?
	Because of me.
	Because I was able to tell him, don't you think that
	No, that's not what you told me.
	What you told me was, and I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just telling you what you told me.
	What you told me a couple of times was, your mother said, I felt really bad.
	Right?
	So your mother didn't get back in touch with your brother because he'd reformed or become better.
	She got back in touch with your brother.
	Why?
	To manage her own bad feelings.
	Because she felt really bad and therefore she completely abandoned her morals and her standards, right?
	Which meant that she was not wanting to be in contact with him or it was just to manage her own negative feelings.
	That's what I mean by the transactional relationships.
	You can't be in relationships with people because you feel bad when you don't contact them.
	Guilt obligate.
	I mean that's not a relationship.
	That's just self-management.
	Pretending to be a contact point.
	Okay.
	So your mother's modeled all of this, and because the men in your family know that they can be, you know, kind of jerks, and the women are going to get guilty and wave away all standards and contact them and give them resources anyway, you're not helping them.
	Your mom's not helping her sons by throwing away all standards and then just contact them because she feels guilty or bad or whatever.
	That's not... And your father should talk to her about that and say, no, he's doing something that's bad for the family.
	It's not just bad for him.
	Cause he's part of a whole family structure.
	It's causing a lot of chaos and he, you know, like, and then he cut you off.
	So the way that he solves that is he calls you up and he says, I'm really sorry.
	And he has a genuine apology.
	But you don't just contact someone who cut you off for a criticism.
	You don't just contact them because you feel bad.
	How about they feel bad, and they actually make some apologies, right?
	Did your brother ever apologize for being an uber slob in your husband's house?
	No.
	Okay, so did he ever apologize for getting fired when you got him a job?
	Why is anyone encouraging and subsidizing this behavior?
	They've got to learn some politeness, they've got to learn some decency, don't they?
	Yeah, you're 100% right.
	So, yeah, that's my sort of general thoughts about it, and I really do sympathize, but, yeah, this sort of consequence-free, and women do this a lot, right?
	And men do this sometimes too, but women do it a little bit more, which is, oh, I feel bad, so I'm going to throw all of my standards aside, right?
	Like, welcome to immigrants in various Western countries.
	I feel bad, I see an unhappy person, and so, you know, we can't have any borders.
	Right, so this, I feel bad, and therefore we can't have any standards, there are no rules, they're like, okay, well, that's just a bad habit, right?
	And that's gotta change.
	That was very helpful.
	I hope so, I know it was a long chat, and I know it sounded like we would go and sound some fairly inconsequential rabbit holes, but there's a method to the madness.
	It was good, you opened my eyes to a lot of things I didn't think about, so.
	I appreciate that.
	You're very welcome, and I'm sorry to leave you in a sad spot, but I know you've got a husband and kids there to chat with, and will you keep me posted, let me know how it goes?
	I will, for sure.
	Alright, thanks sister.
	Take care, all the best, alright?
	Thanks, you as well.
	Bye.

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