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Aug. 27, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:31:22

Why Daddy Wasn't Home... Freedomain Call In

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	Basically, to give you some background, I'm a 44 year old married woman.
	My husband's 46, and we have two daughters aged two and a half years and four months.
	We've been married for three years, going out for about six in total.
	So, although I love my husband very much, at the moment I'm struggling.
	We have a few areas of constant and continuous conflict, and in addition to that, my husband will directly address whenever he has an issue.
	I find This constant criticism is awful and very difficult to take, and I have a tendency of taking innocuous remarks, such as the kitchen is cluttered, as a personal attack.
	I'm also not very good at directly addressing my issues.
	I tend to not be honest here, and then I tend to get more and more resentful as time goes on, and then I get irritated, and then we have a big blowout.
	Becoming snippy, saying hurtful remarks, which leads to more and more arguments.
	Basically, I want us to get this sorted.
	It's not fun for me, but particularly, I don't want my kids growing up in an environment like this.
	So, basically, I was just hoping you could help.
	Yes, I'm certainly happy.
	I'm certainly happy to help.
	Is this a relatively new phenomenon?
	Has this been part of your relationship forever and on, or has that been?
	It's been more or less there from the start, and to be honest, it is over time actually getting better.
	We've both been working on it, and rather than progressing, it's regressing.
	But having listened to you, you say Very similar things to what my husband says, but I find it a lot less painful to hear it from you.
	So I thought that you might be able to point me in the right direction as to understanding exactly what it is that's going wrong with my style.
	Because right at the beginning, I had just absolutely no clue what was going on.
	To me, it was like he was blowing up out of nowhere.
	And I'd be sitting there going, what?
	What's going on?
	Am I an abusive relationship?
	He seems really nice most of the time.
	And he was trying to explain to me, but I just couldn't hear him.
	And from there, it's got a lot better.
	But it would be nice if I could just understand it straight away and then fix it.
	That would be my best outcome.
	Ryan, okay, can you think of, well I'm sure you can, women tend to have a rather special
	memory for these things, Lord love you, but can you think of sort of the last significant
	conflict you have, I mean you mentioned something, you know, the kitchen is messy or whatever,
	can you think of the last significant conflict that you had and sort of step me through what
	happened and how it escalated?
	Well the last significant we had wasn't awful, but basically we were chatting in the morning
	and he said that, what was it, he was going to, yeah, he's working on losing some weight
	and he said he wasn't going to have any breakfast because he wasn't hungry.
	And I said, oh, that's funny because you never believed me when I said I wasn't hungry in the morning.
	And then he got quite upset that I'd said he never believed me.
	And I was going, well, no, it's fine because that's not what I meant.
	I just meant you found it a bit unusual.
	And, um, he went, well, you said it, you can't take it back.
	And I was going, but it's fine because I didn't mean it that way.
	It was just a mistake.
	Um, and then he got upset and I said, well, I'm sorry that you're upset.
	Um, along the lines, along the lines of, I'm really sorry you're overreacting.
	That must be painful for you to overreact so badly.
	So that didn't go so well, really.
	Um, yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so let's go back to... I know all this stuff, of course, I know it sounds ridiculously small, but there's, you know, big stuff involved, which is why it's good to get some feedback.
	So, he says, I'm not going to eat any breakfast, because I'm not hungry, right?
	And he's trying to lose weight, right?
	And then, what was your feeling when he said that?
	Yes, I sort of felt... I sort of felt smug, or sort of...
	How would I describe it?
	Sort of vindicated.
	I don't know if that's a feeling particularly.
	No, you felt annoyed.
	There's a little bit of pettiness.
	Yeah, petty about it.
	No, I get that.
	And you know, we all have these issues, so I'm not preaching from any high mountain here.
	So it was just like you immediately switched this to something that had annoyed you, which is in the past when you said that you weren't hungry.
	So what would he say if you said he weren't hungry in the morning?
	He wouldn't have believed me and would have wanted me to have breakfast.
	He was always very keen on me having breakfast.
	So why wouldn't he believe you and why was he keen on you having breakfast?
	Well, I mean, you actually hit the nail on the head.
	I'm quite impressed.
	Yeah, so when we first met, I was sort of under-fuelling quite badly.
	Sorry, under-fuelling, did you say?
	Yeah.
	Um, I was quite addicted to running, so I would run like a half marathon a week.
	Wow.
	How are your knees?
	Absolutely fine.
	It's nice to be five foot four.
	Okay.
	I'm only little.
	Um, my dad is six foot four and has had two knee replacements.
	So yeah.
	Um, yeah, so I wasn't great for that.
	And previously to that, I had suffered from anorexia as well.
	So that possibly has something to do with, I mean, it actually seems to have resolved since I met my husband.
	I haven't really thought about it for years.
	So I'm surprised you brought that up, actually.
	That's interesting.
	Okay.
	So tell me a little bit about the anorexia.
	Or a lot, if you like.
	Well, it wasn't really anorexia.
	I never got down below nine stone-ish, which I guess is quite Heavy still for someone my size, but it did mean that I was sort of passing out.
	So I think it's too light for me, basically.
	It sort of all started out when I wasn't really be giving much pocket money, but my parents would give me money for lunch.
	So I just would keep the money for lunch and not eat.
	So your, your microphone is kind of coming in and out quite a bit.
	Like you get louder and quieter.
	Sorry about that.
	No, that's fine.
	I don't know if there's anything we can do about it, but if there is, that would be helpful.
	I am jumping my knee up and down, because I have got my baby on my knee, so maybe if I sort of reach the other side, that would help.
	Oh, OK.
	Well, listen, don't worry.
	We'll be fine.
	I don't want the baby to be a problem that way, so that's no problem.
	So, OK.
	So, how old were you when you decided to use your lunch money for sleeping?
	Probably about 16.
	16, OK.
	Yeah.
	So, why did you not have any money when you were 16?
	I guess my parents didn't give me any, really.
	I'm aware your parents didn't give you any, but why didn't you have a job?
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I wasn't allowed to get a job.
	My dad didn't want me to interfere with my studies, so he was I wasn't able to get a job.
	I was able to do ironing and things as I remember, um, to get some money that way.
	But I guess it was, I've always been, I don't know, quite keen on saving money.
	So I guess.
	You're going to, you're going to have to slow down a little here.
	There's so much of what you're saying and it feels like a bit of a gish gallop.
	No, no, no problem.
	I just need to slow you down.
	Okay.
	Cause you said, well, my, my dad wouldn't let me get a job because of my studies, right?
	Okay, so, why were your studies so important that you couldn't even work?
	Because, I mean, working is pretty essential for teenagers, right?
	I mean, my daughter's 15, she just got her first job and she's very keen to work and, you know, you've got to... I mean, education is good too, but you have to have work experience and understand how the working world works, otherwise your education doesn't do you a whole lot of good, right?
	Well, that wasn't the way my dad saw it, definitely.
	I think this is probably because he didn't ever get much of an education or a degree, and possibly he felt like he wanted to give me that so that I could get ahead.
	I'm not sure.
	Okay, but let me ask you this.
	Was it a negotiation?
	In other words, did your dad say, well, I'm concerned about your studies, and you say, well, let me at least just get a job for, you know, eight hours a week, right, something on a Saturday, scoop an ice cream or something, because I need some pocket money, you know, I have a social life, I want to be able to do things.
	So, I mean, I assume, or maybe it's not the case, but your father would say, I want this, and, you know, you're sixteen, you're not five, right, so you would have some comment, some... No, no, it wasn't a negotiation.
	Which is actually quite unusual for him.
	Sorry, was it ever a negotiation with your father?
	Yeah, usually.
	My dad was usually very reasonable, but occasionally he just wasn't on certain subjects.
	But this is a big one though, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, it didn't help your studies that you didn't have enough food, right?
	Yeah, but I don't think they knew about that one.
	No, no, no, I know.
	But if you were to say, well, Dad, I need money so much that I'm actually willing to forego lunch.
	And because I'm willing to forego lunch, I find it hard to concentrate in the afternoon.
	So I need some money or I need a job or something.
	I need some way to get money.
	I'm a 16-year-old girl.
	I need some money.
	My friends are doing stuff, right?
	Well, I did get pocket money.
	I guess it just wasn't as much as I wanted.
	Sorry, I thought you said earlier you didn't get pocket money.
	Maybe I misheard.
	No, no.
	I did get pocket money.
	And how much pocket money did you get?
	Oh, it's a long time ago.
	I don't remember.
	I think I got something like £7 a week or something.
	Okay, so it wasn't enough?
	No.
	Okay.
	So, would you go to your mother and say, I have a problem with Dad because I don't have enough money and Can you talk to him, or can we reason all together, or like, because this is a problem, and so on, right?
	Did you talk to your mother about the issues you were having with your father?
	No, I did not.
	Generally, I had more issues with my mom than my dad, so I don't think I would have done that back then.
	And when I say why not, I don't mean like, well, you should have, or I'm just curious, why you wouldn't, like, what were the issues with your mother?
	She was...
	Very tidy to the point where I'd be eating a meal in front of the television and I'd finished the meal but the program was still on and she would basically want me to tidy it up.
	At that point I missed half the program.
	So I think she just had a lot of anxiety around mess and I was a very messy person.
	You were a very messy person.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	I mean, you're a teenager.
	All teenagers are messy.
	I was also quite a sick teenager.
	So, yeah, I guess I was just a teenager.
	And what were you sick with?
	We didn't know for a long time.
	I think I got diagnosed with stomach migraines.
	Because my stomach was hurting so much, we discovered, I think it was in my late 20s or 30s, that both my mum and I have gluten intolerances.
	So, basically severe abdominal pains.
	And being gluten-free has helped with that?
	Yeah, and it's given me a huge amount more energy.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	All right.
	So you said that your father could be reasonable, but not about some things, and your mother was not generally reasonable at all.
	Is that right?
	No, no.
	She thought I was melodramatic for getting upset about things most of the time.
	So what does she mean by melodramatic?
	Oh, I get very upset whenever things didn't go the way I planned them.
	Can you give me an example?
	Yeah, I can.
	It's from when I was tiny.
	But my grandparents decided to give my older brother this pump-up spider.
	So it was basically a big spider, sort of the size of your hand, with an air pump in it.
	And he'd pump it, and it would jump out at me.
	And I absolutely freaked out.
	I'd, like, scream and cry.
	And I had nightmares for years about there being spiders in my bed.
	I'm sorry, how old were you when you were frightened in this way?
	Must have been about five or six.
	And, of course, your brother knew that you were that young.
	And how old is your brother?
	He's, how old is he?
	He's two and a half years older than me.
	So why would he, I mean, that's not a particularly wise thing to do, and I'm just sort of trying to figure out why that would be something, A, that he would do, and B, that your parents would sort of allow.
	Well, he, yeah, he didn't, he did like to torment me when I was a kid.
	He did what?
	And my parents just, he liked to torment me, and like tease me.
	Okay.
	And wind me up.
	And my parents didn't really do anything until I got basically hysterical and then I'd be told off for being hysterical about just a small thing.
	So why would your parents not protect you from this?
	Um...
	And why would your brother want to do this?
	I mean, and I say this just because, I mean, obviously I've had difficulties with my own family of origin, but I now have known enough families where there are a lot of siblings, where the siblings all get along famously and don't torture and torment each other in this sort of uniquely British Isles kind of manner.
	It's a strange one, actually, because I Absolutely thought it was completely normal that siblings hated each other until very recently.
	So I've never really thought about why he did that.
	I just thought that was what siblings did.
	I suspect that because my mum is quite anxious when I came on the scene.
	It was very much, don't go near your sister because She's fragile, or something, and they didn't include him.
	I know my mom was having a hard time when she had me, because she was living in a hotel at the time, because they'd just moved to a new city.
	And my brother was quite wild, I believe.
	She used to go and sit in a department store to have food, and by the time she'd finish, he'd race off into the furniture part of the store and things.
	trouble reading his energy.
	Yeah, I'm still not sure why he was cruel, though.
	Well, I mean, I guess we were physically hit, so maybe he's acting that out.
	Okay, so, and how often were you hit?
	I really don't remember.
	I've thought about this.
	I can't remember how often my mum hit us.
	I remember that my dad hit me three times growing up, and those I remember.
	But my mum, I think, was more frequent.
	I think it probably was a couple of times a month or something like that.
	And what sort of hitting would it be?
	A spanking.
	No, no, I get that.
	But I mean, is it bare bottom?
	Is it through clothing?
	Is it with implements or bare hand?
	I can't remember if it was bare bottom or through clothes, but it was just the hand on the bottom.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And was it painful or was it mostly startling?
	I remember it just pissing me off, to be honest, Stefan.
	I remember making not a blind bit of difference to me.
	I just got really annoyed that my parents would do that to me.
	So I don't think it kind of hurt that much.
	And what about raised voices yelling name-calling?
	Was there any of that going on?
	No, no.
	They actually don't really do any of that.
	So it really literally was just spanking without any sort of name-calling or things.
	I mean, my mum lost her temper a couple of times, and as I said, my dad I think about three times or something.
	But on the whole, they didn't shout and certainly wouldn't call me names.
	So then I'm still trying to figure out why your brother would be cruel.
	I mean, the spanking is intermittent and not particularly Violent and so on and there's no name-calling.
	So no, I mean was he was he ever I mean, I'm sure he was like warm affectionate Enjoyed your company enjoyed playing games with you never never never never Gosh and your only sibling.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	He's my only older sibling.
	Um, I Suspect It was because I was a very good, well, what people would call a very good child.
	I sat quietly and played with beads for most of my childhood.
	And as I say, my brother got a really hard time because he had an awful lot of energy and did what people didn't want him to.
	My mom would take him around people's houses and he'd be climbing the bookshelves.
	Apparently she took him to a nursery and He went straight out the front door, out the back door and into the road.
	So I think he got told off so much and then I came and everybody said, why can't you be more like your sister?
	And I think he just got unbelievably resentful about that.
	No, look, I appreciate that there's a certain sort of plausibility to that.
	But to me, and again, I'm just trying to sort of feel my way through the family structure.
	To me, it doesn't make sense.
	I mean, do you have uncles?
	I have an uncle.
	Okay, so your mother has a brother, right?
	No, my mom has a sister.
	Well, I guess I have two uncles, actually.
	My mom has Okay, no, I've forgotten half the family.
	Okay, so my mum has two sisters, one of which is married.
	And my dad has two siblings, an elder brother and an elder sister.
	So, although your mother didn't grow up with brothers, your father has brothers, your father was a male, so if your brother is rambunctious, as little boys tend to be, I mean, it would be all within the norm, right?
	And also, I'm always concerned about these convenient family narratives.
	Oh, he climbed the bookshelf, he ran onto the road!
	Because the question is, why was he doing that?
	Like, I'm not saying he's going to necessarily sit quietly with his beads, right?
	He's a boy, right?
	So they're a little bit of a death magnet and so on.
	But this Loki chaos agent, it just seems unbelievable to me.
	Because then the question is, why is he that way?
	Why is he so out of control?
	Why is he running away?
	Because, you know, little boys can be extremely affectionate.
	They can stay close to their mothers.
	They can take really good care of their younger sisters and brothers.
	And I've seen this directly in families.
	I think she's saying, well, he was just a demon child in a way, and we just had to try and manage him, and that to me is not believable.
	The question is why.
	And he was never kind to you, and you say, well, you know, but maybe he resented me.
	Well, that's not true, actually.
	He has done some things in my life that I consider... My brother has done the one thing in my life that I consider to be the best thing that anyone has ever done.
	So saying that he wasn't ever kind is not true.
	OK.
	You know you said that, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, I didn't extrapolate that.
	And obviously, I'm glad that you're giving me more detail.
	And what was the thing that he did that was the most kind?
	OK, this is going to add more complexity to this.
	But when I was at boarding school, we weren't allowed to have outside contact because it upset us.
	And my brother would phone up.
	Um, he was at a different boarding school and would say that, um, there'd been a family emergency and he had to talk to me and I'd get on the phone and go, well, what, what's the family emergency?
	And he'd go, no, no, I just, I just knew you needed to talk to me.
	Uh, okay.
	And sorry, what age did you go to boarding school?
	I only went for a year.
	I went 11.
	Okay.
	And did your brother go at all?
	Yeah, he went, I think he went about the same time because we were living in the Far East at the time and they didn't have, sorry, and they didn't have much of a secondary education.
	And he also has dyslexia.
	So they wanted to make sure his schooling was okay.
	And he went the whole way through.
	I was meant to, but I hated it so much.
	And eventually after begging, my parents took me back after a year.
	Okay, got it.
	And where were you in the Far East?
	Malaysia.
	Okay, and what were you there for?
	My dad's work.
	Oh no, I'm aware of that, but what was his work?
	He was in the oil industry.
	Okay, got it.
	And was your mother a stay-at-home mother?
	No, she was a teacher.
	Oh, come on.
	No, she wasn't.
	You're trolling me.
	Yes, she was.
	No, I refuse to believe it.
	Now you're just trolling me.
	No, nice try.
	No, I won't accept it.
	She cannot have been a teacher and claimed to be ignorant of the nature of boys.
	No, that's not a thing.
	Well, that's the other thing.
	She went to boarding school as well from age 10 or 11, so she would have known them for that age as well.
	Well, you know, she's a teacher.
	Half her class is boys, and boys are rambunctious.
	I mean, she's taught and instructed hundreds or thousands of boys, and what, is she surprised by your brother?
	I don't understand!
	Well, I don't know.
	She just says that he was worse than the average, or way worse.
	And does she at all take any ownership for anything to do with that?
	You know I don't think she does, now you mention it.
	I've never thought of that.
	Well, I mean, so if it's innate to your brother, then he should never be punished for it, right?
	That's true.
	And if it's not innate, then your parents should take responsibility.
	Indeed.
	So, was he punished for these things?
	Honestly, I'm not sure.
	Yes, you are.
	Come on.
	Come on.
	We can't have this much fog about your childhood.
	Was your brother punished for being rambunctious, for running in the road, for climbing the bookshelves, for not listening, for not paying attention?
	Yeah, he would have been, I think.
	Of course he was.
	So he was punished, and then your children say it's his innate nature.
	So they were punishing his innate nature, which is like punishing a child for being short or having brown eyes instead of blue eyes.
	It's punishing a child for something they have no control over.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	So that's completely unjust and is terrible parenting.
	I'm not saying they're terrible parents as a whole, but it's terrible parenting to punish a child for the child's innate nature, right?
	I would definitely agree with that.
	Now, do you believe that it was your brother's innate nature or was there some issue in the environment that may have exacerbated these tendencies?
	Well, the only thing I can think of, which is a bit of a stretch, but my mum He always said that he couldn't cope with anything being changed in his environment and they just moved cities.
	I'm sorry, is your mother saying that your brother is a little controlling of his environment when you have to get up with the TV show half done to clean up your dinner?
	It does seem a little bit hypocritical, now you mention it.
	My gosh, that's a special kind of blindness to criticize.
	Well, my son is just a bit hyper-controlling.
	Now get up, get up and clean up those dishes, even though the show's halfway done, because I'm anxious and the environment is messy.
	You see why I need you, Stachan.
	Wow, that's something, man.
	That's like a force of nature, that level of hypocrisy.
	To be fair, she never actually told him off for wanting the environment in a particular way.
	She just said it was like that.
	So I think she is actually being sympathetic in this case.
	But then what was he punished for?
	But certainly she does...
	He was being punished for the being...
	overly excitable, I guess.
	Right, okay.
	So, if he likes predictability in the environment or a lack of change in the environment, which is common to most children in my experience.
	I've had a lot of experience with kids.
	Of course, I worked in a daycare and all.
	I've been a stay-at-home dad now for almost 16 years.
	So, children like some predictability in their environment.
	And was there a lot of movement for your dad's work?
	Was there a lot of changes in friends and environment and schools and so on?
	Well, yes, but I guess it hadn't happened then.
	Sorry, it happened then.
	I'm not sure when then is there.
	Sorry, but at that point when my mum was struggling with him, I mean, I think she struggled basically from the beginning with him.
	Okay, let me ask you this then.
	So, how long did your mother stay home before going back to work after she gave birth to your brother?
	I think it was four or five years.
	Oh, so she was a stay-at-home mom for the beginning.
	For a fair while, yeah.
	Oh no, that's a long time, right?
	I don't remember, really, her... I don't have very many memories of my childhood for some reason, and I don't remember her being at home.
	I remember being at the childminders.
	I remember running across the road, and the childminder absolutely freaking, and getting really upset with me and getting hit for that.
	Really, I don't remember my mum being at home.
	She does tell a story of me going to nursery, so it's possible that she said she was staying at home for that long, but also sent us to nursery a few days a week.
	I'm not sure.
	Does your brother remember her being at home?
	Do you know, I haven't asked him, Stefan.
	No, that's fine.
	I mean, I get that.
	So, but you don't remember, I mean, you remember being in a child minder's or a nursery from early, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So she, according to what she says, she stayed at home with your brother, and I guess then you, when you were very young, she stayed at home to raise her kids for four or five years.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	And then she went back to work.
	Okay.
	And who took care of you when she went back to work?
	Or did you... No, because you would be too young to go to school, right?
	I guess we were at school by then.
	No, no, I went to school at four.
	So, I guess she... Oh, okay, got it.
	Yeah, so she probably stayed... I mean, that would sort of line up, so maybe she underestimated slightly, but I would imagine that she stayed at home until I went to school.
	Okay, so wildness in boys is often associated with a lack of connection to the father.
	Oh, that's definitely true.
	Sorry?
	That's definitely true.
	Yeah, and so what happens is boys resent being managed by a mother.
	Because it, I mean, for whatever reason, it feels like, no, no, no, I'll listen to dad and, you know, everybody knows this in families that the mom shrieks and the dad speaks calmly and the kids all listen to the dad, right?
	It's kind of a cliche, but there's some real truth in it, right?
	So, he would be wild and not listen to your mother and not want to obey your mother because he would find it humiliating to be controlled by a woman rather than instructed and guided and raised by a man.
	Okay.
	And women's style in general of parental authority is based on stress and upset and all of that.
	And it's basically like, obey me because mommy's upset.
	And boys in general resist conforming to female anxieties and upsets and so on.
	Like, so a typical example would be the boy doesn't want to kiss his aunt Edna because she smells like whiskey and has a hairy mole on her lip.
	Right?
	And the mom is like, well, you have to because it's polite and it's nice, and the mom basically feels anxiety if the boy doesn't want to kiss his Aunt Edna.
	But the boy, for reasons we can get into if you want, but the boy does not want to obey the upset of the mother.
	Because that just feels like being a slave to her emotions.
	But the mother can't say, do it because I'm anxious.
	She says, do it because it's polite, and the boy detects that falseness.
	Right?
	Because she's saying, no, no, it's polite, it's nice, you've got to think of the feelings of others and so on, rather than being honest and saying, I feel really bad if you don't kiss on Edna, and I'll be criticized for it, so do it because I... So she has to make up these morals to cover up a lot of the emotion-based rules.
	And the boy detects that hypocrisy and does not want to obey it.
	And there's evolutionary reasons for that.
	That if the man becomes a slave to female emotions, if the boy becomes a slave to female emotions, he's going to end up with a very bossy and domineering wife, which is going to make his life miserable, right?
	So the boy fights and resists being dominated by female anxieties and emotions.
	Otherwise he can never be any kind of leader in his own household and he's a cuck.
	So So boys, and I remember my mother would say this to my brother on a regular basis, that when we would stay at my aunt and uncle's house, that when my uncle said to my brother, who left the toothpaste cap off the toothpaste tube,
	My brother literally flew up the stairs to fix it and was eager and happy to do that, but every time my mother told him to do something, he'd roll his eyes.
	It's just the nature of boys and moms.
	I'm sure that makes everything very happy in the household.
	Oh, well, because my mother would be frustrated by this.
	Like, why do you listen to him and not to me?
	And it's very unjust and unfair.
	But, you know, it is what it is.
	We can find evolution unjust and unfair, but I don't really think that does us much good.
	So, if your brother was wild, he's distant from his father, he's untrained, untutored, not close to his father, and you're saying that was the case, right?
	We didn't really see my father at that point.
	He was working so hard, he never came home until after eight.
	We only ever saw him at the weekends.
	Okay, that's nonsense.
	Sorry, I'm sorry to be so annoying, I really am.
	I'm so sorry to ask you for your memories and then say that's nonsense.
	So you're saying you didn't see your father because he was working so hard?
	Well, I think, did I say hard?
	Late, I think, would be more accurate.
	Okay, late or hard, it doesn't matter.
	Yeah.
	That's not why you didn't see your father.
	Right.
	Your father was a big shot, right?
	Not at that point, no.
	Normally, if they're flying people around to various countries, it's because they're doing more than manual labor, right?
	Oh, okay.
	Well, I guess he was in finance, but I guess he worked his way up on that, so he Worked quite late and hard, I guess.
	But that's a choice.
	Well, yes.
	So, he didn't have work like you have an epileptic attack, right?
	No, that is definitely true.
	I have been an entrepreneur and worked my way up in the corporate world and all these kinds of things.
	The level of work that you take on is, to a large degree, voluntary.
	So your father did not have to work late.
	He chose to work late and the question is...
	Why?
	Why did he not come home?
	Why did he not parent?
	Why did he have children and not be much of a parent and not be much of a father?
	Particularly when that's harmful for both of his children but in particular his son.
	Well, apparently he used to bath me every night.
	So, I guess when we were very little, he spent more time at home.
	But later on, I certainly don't remember seeing him through the week, because he was working late.
	Okay.
	So, he actually worked harder later, right?
	Yeah.
	So, why did he work late?
	It's not a job requirement.
	It's not absolute.
	You don't have to.
	You just say, no, I'm going home.
	So why didn't he come home?
	Because that put an additional burden on your mother, and made your son wilder, and he was missing something very important, right?
	I mean, I couldn't work that late with children at home, because I would miss my children too much.
	Yeah.
	Well, he obviously chose to.
	So why?
	I suspect it was because he wanted to give my mum the sort of life her parents had given her.
	Well, that's not it though.
	Sorry, I really apologise.
	This almost feels rude and I do apologise.
	Oh no, it's great.
	I love it.
	No, the reason I say that is, I don't know, let's say that I said to my wife, I'm now going to work 12 to 14 hours a day so I can make a lot more money, right?
	What would my wife say?
	No.
	Well, why not?
	It's more money.
	She doesn't care about the money.
	She wants to be home with her and the kids.
	So, it's not that your father wanted to provide these things, it's that your mother either wanted him to and would reject him otherwise, or he was avoiding the kids, or his wife, or something like that.
	But it's not causal that because your mother came for money, your father couldn't see his children.
	It depended on what she wanted out of that.
	Well, it depends on the two of them.
	Because if your father is working late, right?
	I mean, you have a husband, you have kids.
	I mean, if your husband was working 12, 14 hours a day, week after week, month after month, year after year, you'd never let it get to that point.
	You'd say, whoa, whoa, buddy, what's going on here?
	No way!
	You gotta be home!
	I miss you!
	You wanted to become a father!
	Let's parent!
	I feel like I have an ATM who snores on the other side of the bed!
	This is not right!
	Like, what's going on?
	Why would it be like this?
	We can't live like this.
	This is not right.
	I miss you.
	I'm lonely.
	This is sad and tragic and the kids miss you and, you know, you're not connected with them and this is going to be terrible over the course of their life and, like, it would be gentle, I suppose, but it would be pretty insistent, right?
	Yeah.
	You know, if my wife had gotten really into karate competitions for some reason when my daughter was very little and is like, well, I'll be gone most of the week on karate competitions, I'd be like, I think not.
	I think we need to talk about that.
	I don't think that's the right approach.
	And I would recognize, and you would recognize, and everybody, I guess except your mom and dad, would recognize that this would be a sign of some severe dysfunction that needed to be addressed, right?
	Yep, absolutely.
	So what the heck was going on with your parents that your mom didn't insist that your father be home and make sure he knew he was welcome and say, I don't care about the money as much as I care about you and we've decided to have kids and the kids don't need money, they need their father!
	She did say that she was very lonely when they moved because she didn't see him.
	So I'm not I'm convinced it completely came from her.
	I'm not convinced either.
	It's a team, right?
	I mean, there's never one decision in a marriage, right?
	You know that.
	You're one flesh, right?
	Absolutely.
	So what the heck was going on that he chose to stay in some fluorescent office grinding away on a spreadsheet rather than come home to his family?
	Well, I know my mum We had quite severe mood swings at the time.
	We've got a family history of basically suffering from our cycles quite badly, both.
	I think my mum's generation... Wait, you mean like mood madness?
	Menstruation?
	Yeah, well, she's the first generation that hasn't had to have hysterectomies.
	Like endometriosis?
	No, more heavy periods.
	Okay, so she's got hormonal issues, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And, I mean, obviously she sought medical attention.
	Was she put on any supplements?
	Was she put on the pill or any other hormonal?
	I don't think she did.
	Well, she went on the pill once and then said it almost killed her.
	I'm sorry?
	Hang on, hang on a second here.
	Hold on.
	My hypocrisy antennae is twitching a little.
	I'm sure it's unfair and unjust.
	I'm sure we will get back to worshipping the stone goddess image of your mother.
	Your mother said that the pill almost killed her?
	Yeah.
	And then she complained that you were overdramatic, wasn't that the word?
	Yes, she did, now you mention it.
	Overdramatic!
	The pill almost killed me!
	I can't believe how overdramatic you are.
	I can't think where it comes from, no.
	Ah, it's a mystery.
	Seems strange, doesn't it?
	We'll just have to chalk that up to ineffability.
	Now, of course, I don't know, maybe it did, but my gosh, that seems like a rather strong way to put it.
	It does, doesn't it?
	But that is exactly the way she does it.
	I'll say it, it's not me this time.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, tell me a little bit about these mood swings.
	Well, I think she just got very... I think they're just like standard female mood swings, but more.
	So she'd get miserable and overdramatic and crying and things like that.
	And did she ever try and figure out, I mean, did she, didn't go for hormone replacement therapy or anything like that?
	And did she ever try psychotherapy just to find out if maybe there were other things going on other than hormones?
	Uh, eventually they, she, um, was agnus castus, um, and my dad called them her happy pills.
	So I don't know what you're referring to.
	It's, it's, uh, um, Vitamin type thing.
	It's just like over the counter.
	I'm sorry, the solution to vitamins?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Did vitamins have much to do with hormones?
	The solution to my brother was also vitamins.
	Sorry, I'm not obviously any kind of nutritional expert, but I've not heard much of a relationship between vitamins and hormones.
	I'm not sure how hormonal stuff can be dealt with through vitamins.
	Again, I don't know.
	I'm just a bit surprised.
	I mean, I've looked into them and they are supposed to do things to the female cycle.
	They're a bit like, you know how soy... Oh, like the soy with the estrogen and all that, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	It's sort of that sort of stuff.
	So I think it's vaguely plausible in this case.
	Is it?
	I meant... No, no, they're not vitamins.
	They're just... I don't know why I'm saying vitamins.
	They're not vitamins.
	They're just similar.
	Supplements, that's the word I was looking for.
	They're supplements.
	Interesting.
	Okay, so supplements did something to her hormones.
	Well, she believed they did.
	And whether that had more to do with it or... But she never measured anything, she never got the blood work, she never... Is that right?
	She's not very scientific, no.
	Well... Okay, but your dad is.
	Yes.
	I mean, he's in the oil industry.
	You're going to have to be kind of empirical, right?
	Interesting.
	I don't think she ever went for blood workups or anything.
	So how?
	Tell me more about these mood swings, like from what to what?
	I never really saw them because by the time she'd solved them, by the time that I was around pretty much, but I guess she just got unbelievably anxious and stressed out.
	Sorry, I'm skidding around the timeline here like a greased up Andreni.
	So, sorry, so she'd solved the hormonal issues by the time you were born?
	I think so, yeah.
	Okay, so then this has nothing to do with why your dad wasn't home, because she'd already solved the hormonal issues.
	We're talking about why your dad didn't come home to the kids!
	That's true, I'd forgotten about that.
	Seems important.
	Okay, so why did your dad not come home to the kids?
	Now it wasn't hormone issues, it wasn't mood swings, because these were solved.
	I'm supposed to know this, aren't I?
	I'm not going to get away with saying I don't know.
	Well, I mean, it may not be in your conscious mind, but it's there somewhere.
	I mean, if you can't understand your father, we can't understand anyone, right?
	Because, I mean, you were with him, you've been around him for decades, right?
	Well, maybe he's very much an introvert, so maybe the whole family thing just stressed him out too much to be there.
	Well, but if he's there, the whole family situation is calmer.
	I mean, your brother would calm down.
	I mean, kids who have, and I remember this doing, this from a novel research, like over a quarter century ago, the kids who are supposed to have this ADHD, the symptoms often, like, almost completely vanish when they're in the presence of their father.
	Okay.
	So saying, well family life is so chaotic it can't be there, is like it's chaotic because you're not there.
	And honestly, I don't care.
	Fundamentally, I don't care.
	Like, if I buy a dog, and then I lock my dog in the basement and refuse to take the dog for a walk because I say, I'm agoraphobic, it's like, okay, then don't get a dog!
	Introverts don't get a big get-out-of-jail-free card so they can be neglectful parents.
	If you're an introvert, don't have kids.
	But if you have kids, you owe them time, care, love, attention and guidance.
	It's not optional based upon your personality type.
	No, definitely not.
	So, let's try again.
	Right?
	Why didn't he want to come home?
	Was he having affairs?
	Oh, definitely not, no.
	Okay, so it wasn't affairs.
	Please don't tell it to anyone but my mom.
	Okay, it wasn't affairs.
	I mean, I can tell you the answer, but it's sad.
	Go ahead.
	It's because he's not in love.
	That doesn't seem right though.
	No, it is right.
	Because they absolutely adore each other.
	It is right.
	It is right, because If your wife says she's lonely, you come the fuck home.
	So if she says I'm lonely, you don't just keep working.
	That's not love.
	Love is, you know, these stories of men who cross deserts and oceans to be with the woman they love, and your dad can't even cut out of work two hours early.
	And it's not even two hours early, he just can't come home from work on time.
	Even though his wife is lonely and his house is chaotic and his kids miss him and his son's going half nuts from father absence, it's a lack of love.
	If you love your wife, you help her with the parenting.
	You co-parent.
	Otherwise you put an absolutely unfair burden on her.
	If you love your wife, working for a couple of extra hours in some fluorescent ass office wrestling with Excel is not what you'll take.
	Instead of your wife's lovely company.
	It's a lack of love.
	It has to be.
	There's no other answer.
	If he loved your wife more, or you kids more, he'd be home.
	Okay.
	I'm happy to hear our counter-arguments, but I can't think of anything else that would fit.
	It just seems strange.
	I mean, my dad always hugs my mom before he goes up to bed.
	I mean, maybe they weren't in love then, but I would certainly say that they are now.
	She did say they had some difficult times in their relationship, and she also said that they used to have fights, but all she really wanted was a cuddle.
	But all she wanted was a cuddle?
	I'm not sure what that means.
	They had fights, but all she wanted was a cuddle.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry if I'm being obtuse.
	I'm trying to follow, but I don't follow that.
	Maybe I'm not explaining it well.
	They'd basically be fighting and all she'd want was some closeness from him.
	Okay.
	So she's saying that... No, he's very cuddly.
	Sorry.
	She's saying that she fought with him when she just wanted to cuddle him.
	Why wouldn't she say, let's stop fighting, just give me a cuddle?
	Yeah, my mom doesn't discuss her emotions.
	Yeah, yeah, she is.
	Yeah, my mom doesn't discuss negative emotions, really.
	Okay, so if your father learned more about love later on in life, right, there's one way you'd know about that.
	Okay.
	The way you'd know about that is your father... does he live at all close to you?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So your father would come over and he would say, listen, lovely daughter of mine, Oh, you know, I've really been thinking about your childhood and all of the work that I did.
	For what?
	For money that's come and gone, for spreadsheets nobody cares about, for PowerPoints and presentations and business cases and business plans that are long, have been landfill for 30 years.
	And I just think about all the time that I wasn't home, and it's just breaking my heart.
	All the time that you went to bed on your own.
	All the weekdays that I moved you to a whole new country and then just abandoned you for the office.
	I don't know if it's because I heard that stupid Harry Chapin song, or the Mike and the Mechanics song, but I just, I'm wretched.
	I'm wretched at the choices I made when you kids were growing up, move you to a new country, abandon you and your mother, by the way, and spend all my time at the office.
	I think of how much I missed, because I'm seeing my grandkids now, and I'm thinking about how much time I missed, and it's just breaking my heart, and I'm really sorry, and I just wanted to know what your thoughts are about it.
	Well, that certainly hasn't happened.
	Right, so he has not processed that he wasn't home?
	No.
	Okay, so then nothing much has changed.
	I mean, that does seem strange to me because my dad was always, whenever I'd have a…
	Whenever my brother would wind me up and I'd get sent up to my room, my dad was always the one who came up and talked to me and said it was all right.
	Sorry, but why was he talking to you?
	I mean, obviously it's good that he was talking to you, but wouldn't, wouldn't he need to solve the problem with your brother?
	I mean, it's fine talking to the victim.
	I think that's nice, but I mean, that doesn't prevent the victimization from continuing ad infinitum, right?
	I don't know.
	It's like my parents really took the sticks and stones can hurt your bones, but words will never hurt you to heart.
	They didn't really seem to think that being sarcastic or snippy was a problem.
	If he ever raised his hand to me or anything, he'd get in trouble.
	But as long as it was just verbal, I don't think he really did.
	Oh, so if you guys said horrible things to your parents, that was fine?
	Or if you did that now, they'd be fine?
	Oh no, that was definitely not fine, no.
	But sorry, I thought it was sticks and stones, so as long as you don't hit your parents with sticks and stones, then you can say anything you want to them and it's totally fine, right?
	That would be more hypocrisy, I think, yes.
	Okay, so they do believe that sticks and stones are very important, right?
	Attraction stones are important, but words can also harm, right?
	Yes.
	Right, so if you said to your teacher at school, you malevolent, maleficent bitch, and then the teacher called in outrage to your parents, your parents would say, no, it's just words.
	She didn't hit you with a stick, she didn't hit you with a stone, so suck it up and who cares?
	And I think as well, I wasn't Really allowed to retaliate in the same way.
	Um, yeah, it would just seem that It was just in this specific case that it was okay.
	Okay, so why was it okay for your brother to verbally abuse you?
	And I don't want to overuse the phrase, right?
	I mean, so what would he say or what would he do that was verbal?
	I mean, obviously, I assume there was physical stuff at times, but what was the verbal stuff?
	Yeah.
	He told me I was adopted.
	Oh my God.
	He called me Wobblebottom for years.
	Sorry, Wobblebottom?
	Yeah, something from Blackadder's show.
	No, no, I get it.
	Are you pleased to see me or is that just a canoe in your codpiece?
	No, I understand.
	And the other thing, too, is that it is a funny thing about siblings and the fat thing, right?
	You know, so your brother calls you Wobblebottom for years and then you end up being a feverish runner and dieter, right?
	And he's a beast, so there we go.
	And he's a beast?
	What do you mean?
	He's a beast.
	Oh, he's obese.
	Sorry, I thought you said he's obese.
	Yeah.
	So, he's obese.
	Okay.
	So, yeah, my brother used to call me fatty all the time, which I was not.
	I was like on the swim team, water polo team, the cross-country team.
	I was lean as a whippet.
	But it's just a funny thing, right?
	And it's sort of an impossible situation, right?
	So, he'd say, are you fatty?
	And it's like, don't call me that.
	And it's like, well then you can't take a joke.
	You know, like you can't win, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	So he was nasty, saying that you were adopted, terrifying you with spiders, calling you Wobblebottom, which I know it sounds funny, but in particular for women, right?
	For girls, your butt is important, right?
	There was an old British show where this woman was like, I'm not even eating and my butt's getting bigger.
	I can hear it back there, snacking.
	It was before a big butt was allowed, you see.
	Oh, no, I get it.
	We were all trying to be tiny.
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	For sure.
	I mean, you've got to have that Princess Anne non-existent seat magnet.
	And the adopted thing, that's an existential attack on identity.
	And how old were you when he said that you were adopted?
	That was in Malaysia, so I'll have been not much older than eight.
	Right.
	So he's very skilled.
	So where does he get his skill at verbal abuse?
	I don't know.
	None of my family don't do this, and we weren't with anyone else.
	Okay.
	Well, I mean, you don't know, right?
	No.
	You don't know what caregiver he may or may not have had.
	When he was younger, when you were younger, or maybe even before you were there, right?
	Okay.
	So, and of course your parents were aware of this, you know, just this absolute viper tongue that your brother had, right?
	And what did they do?
	I don't remember them doing much about it.
	I mean, some of this was because when I was at boarding school and came back and then he was still at boarding school.
	Oh, and did you feel like you got away?
	I think everybody felt that way.
	So he'd come home for holidays and absolutely it was like the red carpet show for him.
	They do all this stuff and make all this effort.
	And as an adult, I can understand why you would do that, because you only see him that often.
	But it really made me feel... I don't know, but it makes it horrible to go back.
	That's cruel.
	Right.
	Right?
	Because, I mean, then it's like, home is paradise, and I've got to go back to prison, right?
	You know, I never thought of it from that point of view.
	That's almost sadistic.
	Look how great we have it here.
	And then, of course, he imagines that that's your life.
	Yeah.
	And he's got to go back to, you know, cold grey boarding school and you get, you know, cakes, tea, crumpets and clowns every weekend.
	Yeah.
	Alright.
	So, I mean, your parents couldn't have been driving more division and hostility if they tried, right?
	It does seem to have been quite impressive, yeah.
	Okay.
	So, they knew that he was verbally abusive in absolutely horrible ways and did nothing.
	Well, I never wanted to get my brother into trouble, so it's entirely possible I didn't really tell them.
	No, it's not your job.
	No, it's their job to know.
	It's their job to know that this is occurring, right?
	It's not your job to tell them, it's their job to know.
	Agreed?
	Yeah, that makes sense.
	And the question is, why didn't they do anything?
	Why didn't they do anything to protect you?
	Because, I mean, this level of sort of verbal attack and assault and abuse, I mean, it has a big effect.
	Yeah.
	I'm sure I don't need to tell you that, right?
	It's a big effect.
	Right?
	It's hard to trust, it's hard to feel secure.
	You know, having a malevolent presence in your own home that you're unprotected from is really, really disturbing.
	And I absolutely idolized him.
	I just desperately wanted him to like me.
	Well, of course you did, but it's not idolizing, it's fear.
	You didn't idolise him because he was such a wonderful guy who protected you from bullying and loved you and cared for you and played with you and supported you.
	You had to get him to like you because when he didn't like you, he tore your soul half apart with his blade tongue!
	And also he was really good with people and I could never work them out.
	Sorry, he was very good with people?
	You mean charismatic?
	Yeah, he was charismatic.
	People liked him.
	Well, you know what that's a sign of, right?
	Superficial public charm and private cruelty?
	You know what that's a sign of, right?
	No.
	Sociopathy.
	I'm not saying he's a sociopath.
	I don't know, right?
	I'm not a diagnostician.
	But, I mean, if you look up the Embarkers, of sociopathy, it can be helpful to get this kind of information, not obviously as a diagnosis, but as a guidepost, as a set of signs that are probably worth looking into.
	And the superficial charm is very common in this personality structure.
	Like conmen.
	You think of conmen, right?
	They're very cruel, and they kind of eviscerate people, and destroy their life savings, and pillage them, and so on.
	But they're immensely charming, and they have to be likable, because you have to attract people in order to exploit them, right?
	And he could lie.
	I just never could.
	He always used to say I was horribly gullible, because I'd believe anything he said.
	Right.
	And he lied without a conscience?
	Yeah.
	He thought, he just didn't seem to, like he'd think it was funny to pretend that he believed in flat earth theory just to wind people up.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, um, what, this is just a little check mark here.
	We're not diagnosing, just out of curious, right?
	Uh, okay.
	Um, let's see here.
	A difficulty appreciating the negative aspects of their behavior.
	Sure.
	Obviously he was cruel to you, right?
	I think most people have that, though, to be fair.
	No.
	No.
	Most people can recognise the negative aspects of their behaviour.
	Sociopathy is not super common.
	Risk-taking.
	takes risks.
	Now, as a kid, the sort of running into roads and climbing the bookshelves and so on, I mean, obviously, there's some level of risk that you should take as a kid to learn how to manage risk.
	But when he was younger, in particular, was there risks that he took that didn't seem to make much sense?
	Well, I mean, when he was at boarding school, he seemed to get a broken limb every term.
	Okay, so the risk-taking is a yes.
	What about impulsivity?
	Doesn't seem to control emotions and acts on impulse.
	Well, that would explain the obesity and he was bad with money originally as well.
	violating the rights of others through dishonest actions.
	I mean to me that you do have some right to peace and security in your own home
	and if he lies to you and says that you're adopted and frightens you with spiders
	and all this kinds of stuff, you know, that's in that realm.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Arrogance.
	Well, he used to have that.
	Okay.
	manipulation.
	Well I guess being my parents thought he was wonderful for a very long time.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Difficulty recognizing emotion.
	Yeah, he Yeah, he never used to understand why people were upset.
	Okay.
	Being callous.
	Well, yeah.
	Of course.
	Constant lying or deception.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	Not understanding the difference between right and wrong, moral and immoral.
	Oh, I think so, yeah.
	Yeah, okay.
	So, I mean, he hits just about everything on the checklist.
	Which, again, it's just, it's a checklist, right?
	It's not like some formal diagnostic.
	But... Yes.
	That's important, right?
	So, you know, when you say, well, he was charming, and that certainly is the trait sometimes, for sure.
	But, um, so.
	It definitely, um, the, the, the charm.
	Yes, superficial charm and powers of persuasion.
	Sociopaths can be charming, cunning and highly persuasive people who easily get people to like, agree with and help them.
	These traits are superficial in nature and tend to wear off the more often a person has contact with them.
	For example, you start dating a sociopath and they drop the charm once they quote have you.
	Over time it will become clear that the sociopath is not an honest or trustworthy person and most people will distance themselves from them.
	Still, they can be very good at making a first impression, captivating others and persuading people to do things for them.
	Anyway, you can, of course, look at these things yourself, and again, I say this with all caution that, you know, we're not psychologists and we can't diagnose, but I do think that it's important to look at these kinds of, because there are these kinds of patterns as a whole that, no matter what we call them, it is sort of important to understand how these patterns might be informing someone's behavior, if that makes sense.
	Okay.
	So, then the question is, where might all this be coming from?
	I take it these things aren't biological, then?
	I mean, I don't know if anyone knows for sure, but I find it impossible to believe that a child who's truly loved and empathized with would grow up with no capacity to empathize with anyone.
	I can't believe that a child who would be raised with kindness, love, and connection would then turn around and torture his sister mentally for years and years and years.
	I mean, to me, that would be as crazy as a kid growing up in Japan to Japanese parents being taught Japanese and then suddenly being fluent in ancient Aramaic.
	Yeah.
	Like, it just doesn't make any sense to me.
	I mean, it's kind of like, okay, if the brain is like a bone and the bone gets broken, it doesn't just break on its own.
	You're not just born with the bone broken.
	like, I mean, something had to break it.
	My mom said that he used to tell them everything, but I don't know.
	But my parents are very, I mean, they're very boomer.
	They're very closed off.
	We were latchkey kids at one point.
	Sorry, how old were you then?
	Well, it must just be me, actually, because I'm pretty sure it was after boarding school.
	So my brother, I mean, he wouldn't be given a key at 11, would he?
	That would be ridiculous.
	Oh, no, I was a lesbian kid earlier than that.
	Could happen.
	I mean, yeah.
	I remember walking home on our own.
	Before we went to Malaysia, so.
	Yeah, I did that.
	I mean, from the age of sort of eight onwards, I would walk home and be a latchkey kid.
	And you don't have to give out any particular details because, of course, he's not on the call, but how has your brother's life turned out as a whole?
	Well, not too badly.
	He's married with two kids.
	They don't seem particularly happy, his wife and him.
	Has he ever had a conversation with you or have you ever had a conversation with him about his
	cruelty to you as a child?
	Um...
	And I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have, I'm...
	I don't know, right?
	I'm just curious if you have.
	I have.
	But he still just thinks it was a joke and I was overreacting.
	Oh, so he hasn't in particular gotten any better with regards to empathy?
	No.
	No.
	And I think maybe I should do something about that.
	I don't know.
	I mean, it may be impossible, right?
	Yeah, but I should talk to his kids.
	Yeah, I wonder.
	I wonder.
	I wonder.
	Alright, so... We still don't know exactly why your father didn't come home, other than my theory is that... And this is just empirically the case, this is almost like a tautology, or almost praxeological, like it just has to be true.
	That if someone prefers to stay at work rather than spend time with his wife and children, he lacks love for his wife and children.
	I remember when my mum had myocarditis when I was about 16.
	I came home and she wasn't there because she'd gone to see the doctor and they'd had to take her straight to the hospital.
	Dad's boss told him that they didn't think his His mind was in the job, and that he should work harder, and he told them to F themselves and walked out.
	Sorry, your dad told him that?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so that's a good thing.
	My wife's in hospital and I'm almost dying.
	Yeah, that means that he can absolutely work less anytime he wants.
	Okay, so then the question is, why didn't he?
	Well, he had to lack love.
	Now, of course, some people could say that, well, you know, he did love his family but he just
	didn't know how to deal with all of the chaos and the problems.
	.
	you you
	I mean, it doesn't sound like a very happy home to me.
	Again, I'm sure you can correct me if I go astray.
	But it doesn't sound like a very happy home insofar as your brother's cruel and you're... What did you say?
	You were playing with beads in your room or something like that?
	Yeah.
	You're kind of isolated.
	Your brother's roaming around dissatisfied and contentious and difficult and your mom's, I guess she's recovered from the hormonal swings or something like that.
	But I mean, did your parents, did they set up board games?
	Did they enjoy playing with you?
	Did they enjoy teaching you things?
	Did they enjoy your company?
	Did they seek you out?
	Did they make sure you were included?
	Did you feel like you were treasured by them?
	I mean, how did that go?
	Not so much.
	I remember when we visited my aunt and uncle, I used to like sitting down with the adults because they'd talk to me.
	So I suspect that my parents didn't really... I don't really remember them interacting with me.
	Oh, so they didn't really play with you.
	Well, sorry if you said something I missed it.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	No, no, I was just thinking, we'd go walking with my dad at the weekends, all of us, but he'd, like, traipse off off ahead.
	And we'd all be like... Oh, I've been there!
	I remember going to Africa with my father, and he took me climbing these mountains, and he, you know, he hiked for a living, right?
	And he was just plowing on up ahead, and he just called back on me that if I was thirsty, I should suck on a rock.
	I'm like, like your heart?
	Okay, got it.
	All right.
	So, okay, so that's not playing with you, obviously.
	In fact, that's just, that's being, sorry, a bit of an a-hole.
	Yeah, it's not his finest moment.
	If you kids can't keep up, I've got a pace to keep.
	It's like, are you A-hole?
	He did eventually just do it by himself, which I think probably was the better idea.
	No, that was not the better idea.
	The better idea was to stop being an A-hole and spend some time with your children!
	Oh, but he kept up a good pace and I guess that's what matters.
	It's bizarre because he's so good with my kids.
	You want me to read that description again about charm and all that?
	You want me to go through that?
	I can do that again if you like.
	But also, I mean, that's cruel.
	Right?
	Because if he's really good with your kids, and he doesn't ever reference the fact that he wasn't good with you, then he's just kind of messing with your head.
	Oh, this is where your brother's cruelty comes from.
	Yeah, okay, got it.
	It comes from your dad.
	Well, I have a cousin.
	No, it comes from your dad.
	Because if your dad is really good with your kids, right, then he would notice the difference and he'd say, wow, you know, I'm really enjoying your kids and yet I spent a lot of time not spending time with you and your brother and now I realize how much I missed.
	I'm so sorry.
	No, what he's doing is he's coming over and he's saying, hey, I'm really great with kids.
	Boy, there must have been something wrong with you guys when we were younger because look how good with kids I am.
	It does seem that way, doesn't it?
	Because, I mean, he's got little watering cans for the kids.
	I don't remember ever Little bits for them
	Okay.
	Did your parents give you, or can you think of a piece of advice or wisdom that your parents gave you when you were growing up that you still find value in today, that you still use today?
	No.
	I don't remember them ever talking about anything like that.
	So were you parented?
	I mean, they didn't play with you, they didn't talk with you, they didn't interact with you, they didn't give you advice, they didn't give you wisdom, they didn't transfer knowledge, they didn't prepare you for adulthood.
	Were you, in fact, parented?
	I think the plan was for me to go to boarding school, and I sort of scuppered that on them.
	No, because that was when you were older, right?
	Yeah.
	I mean, were you parented?
	Not really, no.
	Okay, so not really.
	In what way?
	I mean, I don't count, like, they gave you food and shelter.
	I mean, you can get that in a concentration camp or jail, right?
	So, they didn't give you advice, they didn't play with you, they didn't enjoy your company, they didn't talk much with you, certainly not about anything important.
	When you go for a walk, your dad's powering on ahead.
	Which is weird and horrible, horrible to do.
	Because it tells your kids that, hey, you're not interesting, I don't want to walk with you, I don't care to show you the flowers, I don't care to describe to you what the bees are doing, I don't want to ask you what you think of this, that and the other, I just want to... I mean, there's a real rage in that, which is, I'm going ahead!
	You kids are too slow!
	I mean there's real coldness and anger in all of that.
	No, that's definitely true.
	I mean, I'm sort of... huh, well, enough about you, let's make it about me now.
	Right, so no, I... the reason I'm sort of thinking about all of this stuff is that, you know, my daughter's going out into the world, right, so she's going to be 16 this year.
	And she recently got her first job.
	Now, she is so good at this job, it's crazy, right?
	And, I mean, first couple of days, everyone's like, wow, you're so efficient, and you really understand the business, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?
	So she's making business cases, and why?
	Why?
	Well, because I've been an entrepreneur for like 30 years or whatever, and we've been talking about business, and what it means to make money, and how to provide value, and, you know, who pays your salary as the customer, not the boss, and like all of this kind of stuff.
	Since she was knee-high to a grasshopper.
	So when she goes out into the world, and I'm really aware of this now in a way that, you know, you kind of live in this kind of half-cocoon of the family, and then your kid's supposed to go out in the world.
	She's gone out, she's made friends, she's got a great group of friends, and these aren't people she grew up with as a little kid, right?
	So she made a great group of friends, she's going out into the world, she's You know, she's doing shows with me that go out into the world, even live streams, and she does a great job, and she's just doing really well in her work, and so on.
	And that's because she's been well prepared for these things.
	I mean, I remember when I got jobs, I just had to figure everything out for myself, because it wasn't like my mom was going to help me understand how to work well.
	So, that's sort of what I'm, that's why I'm sort of asking, I've been asking people these days, right, okay?
	Because if you were to say to my daughter, you know, what advice if your parents give you that you still use to this day, she'd think, she would say probably, I can think of ten things I used this morning.
	So, you weren't close to your parents.
	And your mother didn't teach you.
	Despite the insane fact that it was her job to teach children.
	So what the fuck was going on in your house?
	I do remember that we went back from Malaysia to the UK for an extended trip once and she was meant to teach me at the time.
	And it just went appallingly.
	Sorry, like homeschooling?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, she was meant to homeschool me.
	I wouldn't do anything she said, and she just got really irate.
	I do remember saying to her that I didn't understand why she had so much patience for her pupils when she had none for me.
	Well, and that's like your dad being nice to your grandkids, but not to you.
	Because, you know, These types of personality structures are really impressed
	with, are really interested in impressing strangers, but they don't care about their own kids that much.
	So, when I say that your dad was deficient in love, and you go on a hike, you go on a hike with your kids so that you
	can talk to them. Right?
	You You know, my daughter and I will go on these, like, two-hour hikes just to chat.
	Because, you know, we're away from the home and the phone and the, you know, work and, right?
	So it's off, right?
	I mean, just chat.
	That's what you go on hikes for.
	I don't go on hikes to make time, right?
	It's an exercise in conversation, not lung power.
	I mean, I chat to my daughter when I go on walks with her and she can't talk yet.
	Right, right!
	Now, can you imagine when your daughter gets older that you're just powering on half a kilometre ahead of her?
	No, I mean, we spend all the time going, look doggy at the moment.
	I'm sure I could.
	I mean, the amount of time that my daughter and I have spent looking for clouds that look like dragons or ducks is insane.
	I mean, she was fascinated by the slugs this evening.
	Right.
	Right.
	So here's the thing, right?
	So what I think is important to get is how alien your parents' mindset is to yours, in that you couldn't imagine doing to your kids what they did to you, or didn't do in terms of neglect.
	No.
	So that's really foreign to your mindset, right?
	And you certainly couldn't imagine You know, you have a... sorry, how many kids do you have?
	Two.
	Two, right.
	Boy and a girl?
	Two girls.
	Okay, two girls.
	Well, lucky you, no force-disruptor boys.
	But you can't imagine them... I would have loved a boy as well.
	No, but you can't imagine your kids torturing each other verbally, right?
	I sort of expected it to happen when I got them, but they adore each other.
	I mean, the younger one was getting upset when I was sorting out the older one's breakfast, and I found out the solution for that was to put the younger one in a chair facing the older one, and they just sit and grin at each other.
	Right, yeah, this whole competition stuff, this whole, oh, they resent you spending time
	with the new baby and they get mad, that's all nonsense and that's all lies told by parents
	who screwed up their parenting to the point where the siblings are fighting and they say,
	well, it's natural, it's sibling rivalry, it's all invented to cover up really dysfunctional parenting.
	It's really tragic, it's really sad and it's absolutely not standard operating behavior.
	Like, so, I mean, just, I mean, evolutionarily speaking, we're a clan-based species, right?
	We have clans and families, and so if families fought with each other, they could never ally against outsiders, and What are families supposed to do?
	Well, we have to ally.
	I mean, just think about genetic preference.
	Proximate genetics should get our preferred treatment.
	So the idea that somehow we have massive out-group preferences and hate our own genetics is so completely counter to evolution that only an insane person would have come up with that as an idea.
	Yeah, I mean, that's a good point.
	So, I know that we've done a deep dive into your history, which I find very helpful and informative.
	So, let's go back to your husband.
	So, the amount of hypocrisy that is going on in your family, which we've, I think, hit about six or seven landmines of massive hypocrisy over the course of us talking for a little over an hour.
	We've hit massive amounts of hypocrisy in your family, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, what were you very sensitive in the conversation with your husband about breakfast?
	what were you most sensitive to?
	Hypocrisy.
	That's right.
	So, if you can't see the hypocrisy in your family of origin, then you're going to be hyper-vigilant for hypocrisy in the present, and you're going to react to that hypocrisy as if it's your family.
	You know, hypocrisy is the thing that bugs me the most.
	Well, not really.
	I hate it.
	Not really, because you haven't confronted your family of origin about any of this stuff!
	I did!
	Well, some of the stuff I knew I didn't talk to my parents for years.
	And what did they do when you didn't talk to them for years?
	They apologized.
	For what?
	I guess for sending me to boarding school.
	That was the bit I was really upset about, that they'd sent me there.
	I didn't know any of this other stuff.
	Sorry, you didn't know that your brother was cruel to you and your parents were in charge of the whole family?
	Somehow it never occurred to me.
	Sorry, there's two thoughts there.
	Your brother was cruel to you and your parents were in charge of the whole situation.
	Which one didn't occur to you, or both?
	Well, I knew my parents were in charge of the whole situation.
	I didn't think my brother was particularly cruel.
	I thought that was just the way siblings were.
	I mean, everybody's always told me that's the way siblings are.
	Most siblings I know are like that.
	And your father has never acknowledged that his absence was destructive to the family environment.
	Because his absence meant that your brother couldn't respect rules, couldn't bond, and didn't learn how to restrain his behavior.
	No, he's never acknowledged that.
	Okay.
	So, they apologized for sending you to boarding school, but they could say, of course, well, there was no good schools in Malaysia, and we brought you back after a year.
	So, they had reasonable answers for these things, right?
	I mean, the reasonable answer was that they moved house so many times that year, and they were coming back from Malaysia.
	So, yeah, that was quite reasonable.
	Okay.
	You've not talked to them about, and again, if you hadn't really thought about these things, so the one thing you did talk to them about they apologized for, but they also had some reasons behind it, right?
	Yeah.
	that we could accept to some degree, right?
	I did talk to them about the spider thing the other day because I had this feeling it might come up.
	Oh, you mean in the convo with me?
	Yes.
	And they just said that he liked to torment me with it.
	It didn't seem to have occurred to them that they could have taken it off me, off him even, or done something else like that.
	Well, he liked to torment you as a whole, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And would they say, well, that's just the way he was, or that's just the way brothers are, there's not only so much you can do, or we did comfort you, or stuff like that?
	No, they just say I was melodramatic, I think, actually.
	Right, OK.
	Your mother, who's almost killed by the pill!
	OK.
	Got it?
	Yeah.
	All right.
	So, they haven't apologised for neglect.
	They haven't apologised for any of the hittings.
	They haven't apologised for failing to protect you from your brother.
	They haven't apologised for the hypocrisy.
	They haven't apologised for failing to train or instruct or play with you in any meaningful way.
	They haven't apologised for being largely absent parents.
	Your mother hasn't apologised to you for failing to instruct you even though she was apparently a great teacher to other kids.
	None of that.
	It was just like, well, boarding school, we were kind of in a corner and we took you out after a year.
	Yeah, pretty much.
	So, you didn't talk to them for years, and then what changed that?
	They came home, I guess.
	I'm sorry?
	Well, they were abroad, and I just didn't really contact them much when they were abroad.
	I mean, when I said I didn't speak to them for years, it's not like... I guess I didn't speak to them much for years?
	Okay.
	I think technically, What we've just got here is I've just noticed that that's not true at all.
	Sorry, what's not true at all?
	I'm spinning!
	I did talk to them.
	I just didn't talk to them much.
	I talked to them a few times a year, but I spent Christmas with them every year.
	Okay, but sorry, did they not contact you?
	I didn't like to be contacted.
	Sorry, that doesn't answer my question.
	Did they contact you more?
	No.
	Sorry, you don't have to tell me the exact age for the years that you didn't talk to them.
	Was it your twenties, thirties?
	Twenties.
	Mid-twenties, late-twenties?
	Yeah, mid.
	And how long ago was that?
	About 20 years ago.
	So, 20 years ago, they barely talked to you for a couple of years, right?
	Now, you have two daughters.
	Can you imagine not talking to them more than a couple of times a year, at any point in the future?
	No.
	Right.
	Right.
	It is incomprehensible.
	It's a boomer thing, right?
	Just like, massive selfish void.
	It's just wild to me.
	They don't care.
	They don't care how your life is going in particular.
	They don't say, is there anything we can do to help?
	They don't say, any troubles we can listen to you about?
	Any feedback we can give you?
	Any wisdom we can impart?
	How are things going?
	What's new?
	They don't care.
	I mean, they did give me money for my house deposit.
	Okay.
	Um, and just to put another bombshell in the conversation, they did let me stay at their flat when I blew up with my first husband.
	Uh, while they were there?
	No, they were living abroad.
	Okay.
	And they had a flat.
	Come on.
	They got a house sitter for free.
	Oh dear.
	And then my mum came back and cried because the place wasn't clean enough.
	Right.
	And how many hours did they spend talking with you and helping you process your divorce?
	I don't remember that.
	They didn't help you much with that at all, right?
	I don't remember that happening at all.
	Okay.
	So why are they back?
	They're in your life now, right?
	Yeah.
	Why?
	Well, they came back to their grandkids, as far as I can tell.
	But it's agony to watch them be nice to your grandkids, isn't it?
	No.
	Really?
	No, it's not!
	Come on!
	Of course it is!
	Are you saying that the fact that they kind of ignored you and failed to protect you and failed to connect with you and failed to instruct you and play with you and teach you and enjoy your company, the fact that that was a void for decades in your life and now they're great with your grandkids, that doesn't bother you at all?
	Yeah, it's almost like I don't connect them with the people that were my parents when I grew up.
	Yeah, spoiler, they're the same people.
	I know.
	Okay, so what damage is it doing to your consciousness to split yourself up like this?
	I don't know.
	It's not good!
	It's dangerous to split yourself up like this.
	It's not good for your kids.
	I thought I forgave them.
	I knew I was really angry with them up until a certain point.
	And then I stopped being angry with them.
	Okay, so outside of how they treat your kids, what are the pluses?
	And I'm obviously happy to hear, and I don't know whether they should or shouldn't be in your life, I'm just trying to figure out why they are.
	So, what are the pluses of having your parents in your life?
	They're a very nice company, but not deep company.
	You can't really have a deep conversation with them.
	So as long as you pretend nothing happened and there's no past, they're fine to hang out with?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Okay, so as long as you erase the first 20 years of your life, things are fine?
	Yes, yes, that would be true.
	Do you think there's a caste to regularly erase the first 20 years of your life?
	I would suspect so, yes.
	And the caste is battling with your husband, just so you know?
	Right.
	Yeah, I mean, that sort of makes sense because I honestly thought my dad was like perfect until my husband
	started saying he wasn't.
	it.
	you Well, you never thought your dad was perfect.
	Come on.
	How long have you been listening to what I do?
	A month and a half.
	Oh, OK.
	Sorry.
	My apologies then.
	OK.
	So, sorry.
	I thought I'd been longer.
	No problem.
	By the way, how is your experience of the conversation, given that you're a little less tutored than some?
	Oh, it's brilliant.
	I love it.
	It's very refreshing.
	You absolutely did not think your dad was brilliant at all, and perfect and wonderful.
	It is a requirement to spend time with your father that you think that.
	That's just the requirement.
	Because if you have criti... Okay, how does your father handle any foundational criticisms of his character?
	I don't think I've ever done that.
	Well, why not?
	We all need feedback, right?
	I mean, we all need feedback.
	You know, I regularly canvass both friends and family saying, hey, how am I doing?
	Anything I could do better?
	Anything that's annoying?
	Anything that I can improve?
	Particularly my daughter, because she's not here by choice, and my relationship with her is constantly changing, as you know, being a mom, because your kids are constantly changing, right?
	My relationship with my wife is more stable because, you know, we met in our thirties, right?
	It's growing from like a Pac-Man blob on an ultrasound machine to like a lovely young woman.
	And so there's constant changes and you need to adapt, right?
	And I don't have any model for doing this because my parents were crap on a stick.
	So you need feedback, right?
	And she's given me some feedback that's been very helpful.
	My wife gives me feedback, which is very helpful, you know.
	And so it's important to get these kinds of criticisms or feedbacks, right?
	So you stay on the right course, particularly when you're doing new stuff, like being a good parent, right?
	Are you saying that you can't say anything to your father about, yeah, this wasn't great, or this could have been improved, or this wasn't ideal?
	Okay, so in your mind, how would he react, right?
	If you said to him something like, Dad, I think you were a workaholic, and I think that really affected the family negatively, what would he say?
	He'd be really upset.
	Okay, but what would he say?
	What would you say?
	Probably just that he wanted to provide for my mum and us.
	OK, so you pretend to be him, I'll pretend to be you, because I just need to get a sense of this personality structure.
	OK.
	I'm being him, am I?
	Okay.
	Yeah, you're being him.
	Okay, so Dad, like, you were gone all the time, we barely saw you, and we missed you.
	And I think it was actually pretty negative to the family as a whole, and I think it was really, really negative for your son, right?
	For my brother.
	And I just would like to understand, like, what was the thinking there?
	Like, you were gone all the time?
	Yeah, there's no way we'd have this conversation.
	He'd absolutely shut it down and walk out.
	So, he would just shut it down and walk out?
	Why?
	He's never been able to talk about his feelings.
	I'm not asking him to talk about his feelings.
	I said, what is the thinking there?
	Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
	I said, what's the thinking there?
	Or what was the thinking there?
	Like, what was the, like, why?
	I didn't ask about feelings.
	I just asked what was the thinking behind working all the time.
	I guess he doesn't like to be criticized.
	Well, this is more of a question than a criticism, right?
	I mean...
	Like, what was the thinking behind working all the time?
	Because I think there were some negative aspects to it.
	That's not a big criticism, that's just a question.
	Yeah, but the conversation wouldn't happen.
	So, would he literally just get up and walk out of the room?
	Possibly, yeah.
	Okay, so then you'd follow him and you'd say, sorry dad, I don't know what's happening here, like I'm just asking a question and I don't know why you're walking out of the room.
	what would he say?
	Probably I don't want to have this conversation, it was a long time ago.
	It was a long time ago.
	Well, I'd appreciate that.
	Now...
	I mean, you also didn't want to work late, but you worked late, right?
	So you're perfectly capable of doing things that you don't want to do, and it's important to me, so I really would appreciate it if you'd sort of come back, you know, sit down, I can make you a cuppa, and we'll have the conversation.
	I mean, I know that you can do things that you don't want to do, right?
	I mean, I assume you didn't want to work 12 hours a day when we were in Malaysia, and you did that.
	So you can do a bunch of stuff that you don't want to do, and I really do, I would really appreciate it as a favor if you could just have this conversation be really important to me.
	You know, these are things that I'm thinking about now that I'm a mother too and all of that.
	So, you know, just come back and I know you can handle it.
	You're a big strong guy and you've had a big career and all of that.
	So, just come back.
	Pretend I'm your boss or something telling you to work late, which you did all the time.
	So, you know, just come back and let's have the chat.
	Yeah, I think that might actually work.
	I think he'd say that he thought it was the best thing for his family.
	Well, okay, I appreciate that, but mom said she was lonely and we missed you terribly.
	So I'm a little confused.
	Right, so, I mean, you're a businessman, you've worked in the business world.
	Your customer is who you ask whether the product's any good, right?
	You have to ask your customer.
	You don't just build a bunch of stuff and then deliver it to people and charge them an arm and a leg without ever getting their feedback, right?
	You've got customer surveys, you've got marketing, you've got salespeople, you've got lots of feedback on what you should build.
	So, as a businessman, you know that you've got to ask, right?
	You don't just do a bunch of stuff and then say to your boss, hey, I'm really productive, because you have to ask your boss, what should I be working on?
	Is this a good job?
	So, you know to get feedback, right?
	So, you know, in a way you were delivering a service called fatherhood, right?
	To your family and, I guess, being a husband to your wife.
	So, you know, just help me understand.
	It's not a criticism, I'm just genuinely curious.
	If you say you thought it was best for us, why were we never asked about that?
	Like, because you could have come to us and you could have said, hey kids, You have a choice, right?
	So I can either never be around, and maybe you'll get a few less toys, maybe you won't get new bikes next year, or whatever, maybe the house is a little smaller.
	So I can be around, or we can have a little bit more money, which would you prefer?
	Right, because I remember Pam saying in Malaysia she was very lonely, right?
	So, sorry, go ahead, I interrupted you, sorry.
	I think he'd probably say that he thought He knew what was best at the time, but he's sorry that he didn't actually ask us now.
	No, but why didn't you ask?
	I mean, again, it's not a big criticism.
	I mean, because this is the exact principle you use in the business world is to ask for feedback and make sure that you're supplying value, right?
	So you had a job called fatherhood.
	And you made all these decisions without ever asking us kids what we wanted.
	And it doesn't seem really.
	I mean, did you ask mom?
	I'm just out of curiosity.
	I'm not asking you to, you know, unpack all the secrets of your marriage.
	I'm just kind of curious.
	Did you ask mom if she wanted more money or more time with you?
	Because it seems to me that she wanted more time with you because she's talked about how lonely she was.
	I thought I was meant to be the head of the family and make the decisions.
	No, but there were decisions for us.
	You're saying you did it for us, but you didn't ask us.
	And you certainly, like, did you just say to mom, I don't care that you're lonely.
	I'm deciding for you that you need more money rather than more time with me and more help with parenting.
	I mean, I'm just curious because I think that she was a bit more egalitarian than that.
	I could be wrong.
	So did you just go to mom and say, I've decided that you want more money, not more time with me, and that's just the way that it is?
	Is that what happened with mom?
	I mean, I find that hard to imagine.
	Of course, I don't know the depths of the marriage, but I'm just curious, is that what you decided for her?
	No, we decided together that this would be best for you guys.
	Sorry, so mom said, I would rather you make more money for the family than be home to help me parent and make sure I didn't feel too lonely.
	So she said, I want money, not your time and presence as a husband and a father in the household.
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	That's interesting.
	Why do you think she wanted money, not you?
	at home.
	Why do you think she wanted more money and yet you not being at home?
	Because, I mean, I'm married, I'm obviously a wife and I can't imagine saying to my husband, I don't want to see you but show me the money.
	I'd rather have money than you at home.
	We thought it would be better for your future.
	Right.
	And did you...
	So, mom was fine with that.
	Mom said the kids would rather have money than time with their father.
	Is that right?
	That was the decision you both made, right?
	The kids would rather have more money for the household rather than actual time with their father?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	But why wouldn't you ask us?
	Because you were kids.
	Well, yeah, but we know if we want time with our father, don't we?
	I didn't realize that at the time.
	Didn't realize what?
	That you would know what you wanted.
	So you don't think that we had any preference as to whether we spent time with you or not?
	Do you not think that... I mean, ducklings follow their mother, for heaven's sakes!
	I mean, this is common in the animal kingdom to want to spend time with parents, right?
	I didn't think you'd be able to weigh up the pros and cons.
	You wouldn't be able to realize what you were giving up in the future to have my presence now.
	Well, what do you mean in the future?
	I mean, we're talking when we were very little.
	I mean, you could have made more money later, I guess, right?
	I mean, do you think we wanted money, not you?
	I guess that was your theory, that we wanted more money in the family rather than spending time with our father.
	Yeah.
	Looking back, do you regret that decision at all?
	Do you think that maybe you worked too much?
	Because, you know, weekdays, we barely saw you at all, right?
	And I know that was tough on mom because she did complain about feeling overwhelmed and stressed and lonely.
	And she never came to you and said, I think I need you to be home more because I'm basically a single mother.
	That was just the way it was back then.
	No, no, this is not the way it was.
	These are all choices.
	What do you mean?
	It's not like physics.
	I'm not saying be immune to gravity.
	These are all choices.
	Did mom ever come to you and say, I think less money and more time with you at home would be better?
	Because she certainly complained to us about being lonely.
	I think she was just a little bit lonely.
	I think she was just a little bit lonely.
	you I
	I don't know.
	Steph, I don't think I have parents at all.
	I'm sorry?
	I don't know what you'd say to that.
	I just have no idea.
	Well, he's lying.
	Sorry.
	I mean, he's lying.
	Right?
	I mean, because if your wife is lonely and is complaining about feeling lonely, then clearly she wants you home more, right?
	And I'm sure she felt overwhelmed with your brother.
	Yeah.
	Yes, she did.
	So she absolutely needed help with parenting.
	Of course she did.
	Mothers and fathers are supposed to raise children.
	That's how we're wired.
	So, if he's... I mean, honestly, I personally think... I don't know, it's just a roleplay.
	I think he's lying through his teeth.
	I think he's absolutely lying through his teeth.
	Because I bet if your father had said, well, a little bit less money, but I'll be home and I will absolutely calm that crazy boy down and make him a lot nicer to his sister, your mom would have been like, yes, absolutely.
	Now, if your mother would be like, no, no, no, I want more money, even though my daughter is being tortured, well, that's insane.
	Like, morally, that's, I don't even know how to express how corrupt that is.
	That you would take more money at the expense of your daughter being tortured.
	Because that's, that was the equation, right?
	If your dad's not home, your brother goes wild, it becomes cruel.
	Right?
	And so if your mother were to say, oh absolutely, you go make another 10,000 quid a year or
	20,000 quid a year and the price of that is that my daughter's going to get mentally tortured
	for 15 years or however long it was, well that's sick, right?
	So I'm sure that your wife said, I'm sorry, I'm sure that his wife, your mother said,
	I'm overwhelmed, this is not fun for me, I'm lonely, I'm stressed, right?
	Bye.
	I mean, she had health issues, right?
	In your mid-teens?
	Yes, she did.
	Right?
	I mean, I don't know if that's stress-related or whatever, but, you know, I mean, she was, she was, it was tough!
	New country, no help, no in-laws, no friends, no relatives, no, right, support system, and your dad's working all the time.
	I mean, that's crazy!
	Of course she said, I'm overwhelmed.
	Of course she said, this isn't working for me in the way that I want it to.
	Of course she did, right?
	Yeah.
	So the idea that his wife was like 100% on board with a few extra quid a year at the expense of her mental health and a children's peace of mind is crazy.
	So I personally, I think he's lying through his teeth in that roleplay.
	I used to think it was crazy that my parents never had anything in common.
	Never seemed to do anything together apart from go on holiday.
	Great.
	Great.
	I mean, there's a coldness, right?
	There's a coldness.
	Yeah.
	I mean, there's a functional British iciness, right?
	I mean, I grew up in England, as you know, right?
	Or maybe you don't, right?
	Yeah.
	I know a lot about these kind of family structures, right?
	These sort of hyper-competent men who just are like workhorses and have hearts of ice and then pretend, they pretend it's all for other people.
	That's a total lie.
	You cannot possibly say, I did it all for the kids, when it's the exact opposite of what the kids wanted.
	Like, that's insane.
	Like, honestly, I mean, that's just an absolute lie.
	Well, I didn't know.
	I didn't know that you might prefer my company.
	I mean, that's literally where he got to, and that's where the roleplay broke down, where I was saying, like, even ducklings prefer to hang out with their parents.
	Yeah, I went to school in the south of England, very, quite wealthy school.
	It was an all-girls school, and all the All the kids were like on antidepressants.
	Yeah.
	Oh, no, I went to boarding school.
	I went to boarding school in England, probably in the same neighborhood.
	So I understand.
	I understand for sure.
	Oh, it's for you kids.
	It's like, don't lie to me.
	No, it's not.
	It's for you.
	I mean, that's the foundational lie.
	And that's actually very insulting to the children.
	Right?
	Because it's the lie to say, Well, no, your dad did what he wanted and then he says it was for you guys.
	But it's the exact opposite of what you wanted.
	You and your brother would have been way better having your father home and being involved in the family.
	Your mother would have been less stressed, your brother would have been way calmer, you would have been way more protected, you would have developed more social skills rather than learning how to play with beads for 15 years, right?
	And so it would have been way better and the money doesn't matter.
	I mean, maybe it would have taken your family income down by 20%, right?
	Who cares?
	You wouldn't have starved.
	I guess people who care are the people who are going to retire on at the end of it.
	Well, that's not a great equation either.
	That's not a great equation either, because you don't save any money.
	By not parenting your children.
	Do you know why?
	No.
	Well, because your parents are gonna get old, and you guys aren't connected enough to give up what's needed to take care of them, so they're just gonna have to pay strangers to do it, and they won't save a goddamn penny.
	In fact, it'll cost them more.
	Also, also, Your children don't accumulate as many assets if they keep getting divorced.
	And because you weren't close to your parents, it's tough for you to negotiate relationships.
	And because it's tough for you to negotiate relationships, a lot of the wealth you accumulate gets dissipated in divorce, right?
	So it's absolutely a terrible deal.
	It doesn't make any money.
	To take all this money and not connect to your kids means that the family wealth just disintegrates and dissipates and gets wasted on divorce lawyers and old age care homes and nurses and all the stuff that needs to be paid for because your family is not close enough for you guys to want to do it with your parents to take care of them.
	You then have to pay for an old age home rather than moving in with your kids.
	You have to pay nurses rather than your kids take care of you.
	You have to do all of that.
	It doesn't save you anything.
	It costs you money.
	It makes no sense from an economic standpoint.
	I mean, it makes no sense from a moral standpoint, but the idea that, well, I had to work hard because I need to retire, it's like, no, you just gave up on your kids so you can give money to Jamaican nannies.
	It's no benefit.
	Doesn't make you any money?
	So why did they do it?
	.
	you the
	I mean, sorry, is that rhetorical?
	I can answer the question, but I wasn't sure if that was rhetorical.
	No, I'm honestly curious.
	Well, why does any parent or anyone do anything?
	Because they prefer to.
	Because your father felt more effective at work and felt awkward at home.
	Your father was better as an engineer of inanimate objects than he was connecting with an actual human heart.
	So, he cowardly gravitated to that which was immediately easier to him, no matter the expense to his family.
	He felt more competent at work than he did at home, so he gravitated towards being at work.
	He felt more confident making money than he did connecting with his wife and children.
	And so he just gravitated to that which came easiest to him rather than that which had actual value in his children's hearts.
	So he worked for him because his boss gave him his approval, his boss gave him money and approval and status and raises and his children, well, he had to work a little harder to capture their hearts and to be a good father.
	Being a good father did not come naturally to him.
	Being a good worker did.
	So he just did what was easier and more rewarded in the moment.
	It's hedonism.
	Pure and simple.
	He didn't know how to fix his family and he wasn't willing to learn.
	He wasn't willing to go to therapy.
	He wasn't willing to read books on parenting.
	He wasn't willing to do any counseling or work on himself or figure out how to open his heart.
	He just lazily avoided all of that and gravitated towards being a giant economic working brain of status and job satisfaction.
	He pleased his boss, not his children.
	He wanted the approval of his boss, not the love of his children.
	Because that was easier.
	Because self-work is hard, and becoming a good parent, if you were raised not well, it's hard, right?
	I'm not telling you anything that you don't know, right?
	So he took the easy path.
	He took the lazy path.
	I found being a parent very easy, actually.
	And your kids are how old?
	Two and a half and four months.
	Okay.
	And this may be the case, right?
	This may be the case.
	However, being a parent, being a good parent is also being a happy wife and not having conflict with your husband.
	So that's where the challenge is probably coming in.
	Yeah, that's definitely true.
	And also, you know, your kids...
	They're very much bonded with you.
	There's no peer stuff.
	There's no, you know, what they call the terrible twos may kick in in a bit where there's a lot of resistance and disagreement and so on.
	And it's where the conflicts occur that the parenting kicks in.
	And the conflicts may occur, of course, to some degree or another.
	If you're staying home with them, which I assume you are, that's obviously so much the better.
	So, I'm not saying, yeah, so far, because, you know, I get all of that, you know, like, I did this whole radical peaceful parenting stuff, like, I started talking about it, like, 20 years ago, and then my daughter is almost 16, and everyone was like, oh, it's fine, you wait till the teenage years.
	It's like, yeah, well, the teenage years are here and everything's great.
	So, yeah, all this fear.
	I'm not trying to be that guy.
	But, so, it's coming easier for you, which is great.
	It did not come easy to your father.
	No.
	He didn't know what to do.
	Your mother didn't know what to do.
	And rather than learn what to do, they just avoided doing it.
	Rather than learn how to connect with their children, they just didn't bother to connect with their children.
	Rather than learning how to truly love and protect their children, they just blamed and insulted their children.
	And I say this very, I want to be clear about this, like just saying, oh your brother's got, he's just wild and crazy and, you know, like that's just a huge insult.
	It doesn't answer anything.
	Now, where you have difficulty is getting along with your husband.
	Yep.
	Because, to go back to the breakfast thing, right?
	So, he doesn't believe you when you say you're not hungry, because of your history of eating disorders, or under-eating, as you said, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Okay?
	So, you do have a history of lying about being hungry, right?
	Yeah.
	And I don't mean this in any critical way, right?
	I mean, but I assume that you lied about eating, right?
	I've already eaten, I ate at school, I did this.
	Yeah, I must have said things like that.
	Yeah, I would believe so.
	There's that movie, this woman who says, well, I'm on a particular kind of diet.
	When I'm about to faint, I eat a cube of cheese.
	Just one stomach flew away from my ideal weight.
	I mean, I'm not saying it was that bad, but you lied about eating.
	No, that's pretty accurate, actually, yeah.
	Oh, is it?
	That was kind of accurate?
	Okay.
	So, I say this with sympathy, right?
	I mean, I really do, right?
	So, the anorexic stuff had to do with compulsively lying about eating, right?
	And so, since you had a history of compulsively lying about eating, your husband would have some scepticism as to whether you're hungry or not, right?
	And I don't think he handled it in the right way, for what it's worth, but nonetheless, you wouldn't have high credibility, right?
	But also, the eating disorder stuff was a long time ago, right?
	When you were mid-teens, right?
	No, it only finished, really.
	I mean, it went right the way through until I met my husband.
	Ah, okay.
	And that was five years ago?
	Six, yeah.
	Six years ago, sorry.
	I was so close!
	I should never guess these things!
	I should never guess these things, but I did.
	I thought, I'll do it!
	And then I'm like, that's close, you know.
	Alright.
	So, for, you know, what, a decade and a half or whatever it was, you had this sort of lying about food, right?
	Yeah.
	So then your husband decides to go on a diet and he doesn't have a history of a decade and a half worth of eating disorders, right?
	No, not at all.
	So he doesn't have a history of compulsively lying about food.
	So then when he says I'm not hungry, is it fair to compare you compulsively lying for a year and a half about something and your husband having no history of lying about it?
	No.
	Yeah, absolutely.
	That's clear, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	So why is it not clear in the moment?
	Well, I certainly have never admitted to myself I was compulsively lying about eating for two years.
	Oh, please, don't even try with me, sister.
	Don't even try.
	I can't give you that.
	I can't give you that.
	No?
	Oh, come on.
	You had an eating disorder, which is a kind of addiction, and are you saying that you had no idea that addicts tend to lie?
	Well, you had extended to lie.
	You're addicted to not eating.
	You're addicted to managing your emotions by controlling your food intake.
	You're managing anxiety by not eating.
	You're managing whatever, self-worth for attractiveness or whatever it is, right?
	But people lie when they're addicted to things, right?
	You know that?
	No, that absolutely makes sense.
	Oh, he used to call me a liar and I got so offended.
	Well, no, because that's why I said he didn't talk about it in the right way.
	Just calling you a liar is cruel, in my view.
	I'm not saying he's a cruel guy or anything, right?
	But, you know, I mean, I said you compulsively lied.
	Liar is like a moral judgment.
	Compulsive lying is, okay, there's a severe deficiency in some sort of self-image or some sort of self-worth, and all you can think of to do is lie.
	And of course, you were raised by families.
	You were raised by a family, to me, that was lying a lot, which is all the hypocrisy stuff we talked about.
	Yeah.
	I don't think he would have called me a liar, actually.
	He probably would have said I've been lying in the past.
	I want to be fair to him too, right?
	Yeah, I do.
	So you lied about something compulsively, and compulsively doesn't mean to bad, it just means it was kind of out of your control, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So compulsive is not a moral judgment, it's kind of like an epileptic attack or an automatic thing like breathing, right?
	Oh, questions about food?
	Just lie.
	Because nobody's going to understand, nobody's going to sympathize, so just lie.
	Yeah, just say you've eaten.
	Yeah, oh I ate at school, oh I'm full, I already had something, blah blah blah.
	I understand, and so it's not a moral judgment, but you were falsifying things for a long time, and that's fine, right?
	So then, your husband says, I'm not hungry, and you go to anger.
	Yeah.
	That's not a criticism, I'm just trying to trace the steps, right?
	Yep, that's true.
	Okay, so you go to anger and you're like, oh, well I guess what you're saying is the truth even though you accused me of lying about this in the past, right?
	Yeah.
	I'm not saying it was, I'm caricaturing a bit, I'm sure it wasn't quite that snarky, but that's sort of the impulse.
	No, no, that sounds pretty accurate actually.
	Right, okay, it's a little bitchy, right?
	And it's not a gender thing, because men can be a little bitchy.
	So can I, actually, by the by.
	So, I'm not, you know, none of this is like me looking down from any great height, right?
	I struggle with this stuff too, from time to time.
	So, the question is, why go to anger?
	And I'm not saying there's anything crazy about it.
	We don't feel or act without a cause, right?
	Why go to anger?
	Because there's a lot of pain in there, right?
	Pain at having to lie.
	The under-eating is great pain, right?
	Because it's like I'm not worth anything if I don't look better or perfect or something like that, right?
	Yeah.
	There's a lot of pain there, right?
	So, if he says, I'm not going to eat this morning because I'm dieting, that brings up pain in you, right?
	Yeah.
	So, from pain to anger.
	Because rather than inviting him in and saying, you know, well, first of all, he could be a bit sensitive about it.
	I mean, towards you about it, which again, would be very high standards of behavior, but it could be done, right?
	So he could say, you know, listen, I'm going on a diet.
	When did he decide to go on a diet?
	A few days ago.
	Okay, a few days ago.
	So then he'd say, listen, Miss Under Eater is anonymous.
	I am going to go on a diet and this is going to be upsetting to you.
	I mean, I know you love me, and I know you care about me, but you have a history of an eating disorder for 15 years, so we need to talk about me going on a diet, because that's going to be tough for you, right?
	Yeah, and I'm breastfeeding at the moment, so I really can't lose any weight.
	Right.
	Right.
	Now, did you guys have a conversation about your history of an eating disorder being potentially triggered by your husband dieting?
	No, it didn't even occur to me.
	What?
	Oh, no, sorry, of course, yeah, because you erase the first 20 years of your life in order to spend time with your parents.
	Okay, yeah, that makes sense.
	Yeah, sorry, I was like... Right!
	Okay, got it.
	So that's the price of erasing the first 20 years, is you're constantly surprised by things that are blindingly obvious, right?
	Is this why he keeps saying you should know this?
	Or... Well, yes, because... So in order to spend time with your parents, you have to self-erase.
	Now self-erasing your history means that you don't understand your triggers, and then you react without knowing why.
	Yeah, that's exactly what happens.
	Okay.
	Yeah, so that's the price of not being honest with your parents, is you have no control of your emotions with your husband.
	Because, like, when I point this out, and this is why we all need to talk about these things with other people, myself too, right?
	So when I point out, well, you had a 15-year eating disorder, so you'd be triggered by your husband dieting, right?
	Or could be, right?
	It is blindingly obvious, right?
	Absolutely.
	Right, but the reason it's not blindingly obvious is in order to spend time with your family you have to self-erase and therefore you have no past, you're like some odd person who sprang full-grown into life about eight minutes ago and so you don't have history, you don't have triggers and that self-erasure means that you're just going to react in an automatic fashion rather than process things according to self-knowledge, right?
	Is this why I find it so strange when he brings up things from the past.
	That's a bit of a vague question.
	I'm not sure what you're referring to.
	Right.
	So, he'll bring up, not particularly in an angry way, arguments that we've had in the past, just as sort of statements, and I sort of feel like that's cheating.
	Sorry, that's what?
	Like, it's cheating.
	Like, you shouldn't talk about anything bad that happened in the past.
	Oh, right.
	Yeah, I would imagine so.
	But the problem is, if you don't talk about anything bad that's happened in the past, you can't learn from it, and you can't avoid it, right?
	So, if you can imagine, like, you know, like every kid, right?
	You put your hand on something hot, right?
	You put your hand in the fire, or there's a hot knife on the stove, or you put your hand on something hot, and you're like, ow, that hurts, right?
	And the reason it hurts is it's your body's way, obviously, of saying, let's not do that, because it's damaging to our body, right?
	Yes.
	Now, of course, if you could imagine if somebody did that and then forgot about it every night.
	Every night they went to bed and they woke up with no knowledge of how hot things could damage you, what would happen?
	Well, you just keep touching hot things, right?
	So you just keep getting burnt.
	Because you're not accumulating wisdom.
	And so, if you self-erase your past, you just keep taking the same damage, right?
	That's why I keep doing the same things over and over and over again.
	Well, I assume that there's a kind of repetition in these conflicts, right?
	Well, yeah.
	One of the major ones we have is, like, interrupt him when he's talking, or don't listen to the end and phase out halfway through.
	Sorry, what do you mean by don't interrupt?
	So you interrupt him when he's talking?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, he'll be talking on one subject, and I'll sort of interrupt him with something that's completely different.
	I don't even notice I'm going to do it, really.
	And is there any pattern to the topics you interrupt?
	No, not really.
	I mean, he does talk about personal stuff, but it also can be just his hobbies as well.
	It's more that there's something I should be doing and I'm getting really, really anxious that he's still talking.
	Sorry, so you feel that there's chores or other things that you should be doing, and so you get anxious, right?
	Yes.
	So, you want to stop, you end the car, okay, we can finish the story, I've got dishes to do.
	I mean, is it something like that?
	Yeah, pretty much.
	Okay.
	So, I've got a whole book, which is free, called Real Time Relationships, about this kind of stuff.
	Yeah, I've read it.
	Oh, okay.
	So, what's the most honest thing that you can say when your husband is story and you're feeling anxious?
	I'm feeling anxious.
	Yeah.
	Oh, I'm sorry, I'm having trouble.
	I have trouble listening because I'm feeling anxious.
	Yeah, I tried that.
	It works really well, actually.
	Oh, good.
	Okay.
	But you have to be aware that you're anxious, and you also have to have pattern recognition based on the past.
	But if you self-erase the past, or if you erase yourself, then you don't have pattern recognition based on the past.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, that's the problem.
	I sometimes don't spot I'm feeling anxious, and I'll just walk off halfway through a conversation.
	Ah, and what did your father do in the roleplay?
	He walked off halfway through the conversation.
	There you go.
	Right.
	When it's pointed out, it's bizarre behaviour.
	It's not bizarre behaviour if you have a really guilty conscience and if criticism is intolerant to you because you're vain.
	Does your father suffer from vanity at all?
	I think it's probably, yeah, possibly.
	Well, I can tell you why I think he does.
	It's that you thought he was perfect.
	Yes.
	Now, if my daughter, I can't imagine this, but if my daughter were to come to me and say, Dad, you're perfect, you never do anything ever wrong, you're perfect, right?
	What would I say?
	I'm not perfect.
	Well, I would say, first of all, I appreciate the compliment, but I mean, I think it's important to be realistic, right?
	I have good traits, I have a few bad traits and so on.
	Now, one of the reasons why Like, what would be the main reason why I would want to correct my daughter if she came to me at the age of 13 or 14 or whatever and said, Dad, you're perfect.
	Why would I want to correct her on that so much?
	I mean, other than the fact that it's not true, I'm not perfect, but why would it be particularly important for my daughter to not think her father is perfect?
	Because you don't want her to expect other men In her life to be perfect.
	Yeah, because then she'll just be a nag to her husband.
	She'll constantly criticize her husband.
	Because she'll be comparing him to a fantasy man who doesn't exist which is called perfect me.
	Yeah.
	So I would never ever want her to think I was perfect because I want her to have a happy marriage.
	Now, if your father lets you continue to think that he's perfect, even though that comes at the expense of your marriage, then he's getting... that's vain.
	That's vanity, right?
	Because he'd rather think that he's perfect than you have a happy marriage.
	Or a happier marriage.
	Sorry, I'm not saying you don't have a happy marriage at all, right?
	But a happier marriage.
	Yeah.
	So that's what I mean by vanity, right?
	Like if my daughter comes to me and says, Dad, you're perfect.
	Yes, I am.
	Yes, you're absolutely right, darling.
	I'm perfect.
	No man will ever... Come on, that's wretched and vaguely gay, but it's... I don't know why that accent came in.
	I played a little bit of Ballsgate.
	It was a lovely voice.
	It was a lovely voice.
	Well, I went to boarding school.
	What can I tell you?
	Right.
	So, but it would be pretty toxic for me to encourage that in my daughter or even countenance that in my daughter.
	And it also would mean that my daughter had never seen me self-criticise.
	Has your dad ever said, ooh, you know, I really could have done that a bit better.
	Oh, that wasn't quite right.
	No, I remember, no.
	Okay, so this is why you kind of criticize him, because he's too vain.
	And he's incredibly competitive as well, or he used to be.
	Yeah, well, he wasn't competitive with being a good parent.
	He wasn't competitive with improving his parenting.
	No.
	I've no problem with competitiveness, just make sure it's in morality, not just money-grubbing.
	Yeah.
	So, last thing is the kitchen.
	The kitchen of doom, right?
	Things are messy, right?
	And so when you say, you said your husband interprets this as a criticism, right?
	No, I interpret this as a criticism.
	Sorry, your husband says the kitchen is messy, and you interpret this as a criticism, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	How do you know you're not correct?
	Because when I ask him, he says it's not a criticism.
	Well, again, I'm not trying to drive any wedges between you and your husband, but I'm a skeptic, right?
	And that doesn't mean that I'm right.
	But maybe you are accurately perceiving his tone.
	Right?
	So, you're the stay-at-home mom, is that right?
	No.
	I am considering that quite heavily after looking at your work, though.
	Oh, good.
	Okay.
	So, who takes care of your kids during the day?
	You're working, is that right?
	I'm on maternity leave at the moment.
	Oh, okay.
	Okay.
	So, you're home and I would beg and implore you to stay home.
	Honestly, it's a bad deal to go back to work.
	It's a very bad deal.
	And really, it's up to your kids.
	I mean, you know, when you become a parent, you just have to do what's best for your kids, right?
	Yeah.
	So, right now, you're the stay-at-home mom?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And over the last two and a half years, since your first daughter was born, have you been the stay-at-home mom for the most part of that time?
	No, probably for about a quarter of that time.
	About a quarter of that time.
	And who's been taking care of your kids when you were at work?
	My parents and a nursery.
	Right.
	Right.
	Well, that explains the value that they have in your life, right?
	Yes.
	Because if they weren't around, you would have had to stay home, right?
	Yeah.
	And what's the reason for going back to work, or what was the reason for going back to work?
	to pay for the house? Well, you can get a smaller house, you can, right?
	I mean, there's costs to going back to work, and then you have to pay for daycare as well.
	So, I mean, have you done the math?
	Like, what's your actual take-home on an hourly basis after all of the costs and expenses are rolled in?
	I'm on six figures.
	Oh, okay.
	And have you been on six figures for a while?
	Yeah.
	Ah, fantastic!
	So, you should have some good savings that allow you to be a stay-at-home mom.
	No, because we only just bought the house.
	Well, but you've been on six figures for how long?
	Oh, probably about... Actually, when I say been on six figures for a while, that's not true.
	Before I met my husband, I was under half what I'm making now.
	So that was only six years ago.
	Okay.
	So, but just, you know, six figures is pounds, right?
	So that's infinity Canadian dollars or something like that.
	OK.
	So, if you'd bought a smaller house, you'd be able to stay home, right?
	Yeah.
	OK.
	So, is it worth having a... I mean, do your kids want a bigger house, or do they want to stay at home more?
	I would suspect they probably would want to stay at home, Mum, if they're anything like me.
	Of course they would.
	I mean, we evolved in caves, for heaven's sakes.
	Go back and look at what the blue Britain Picts lived in, and mud huts and stuff.
	They'd rather have you home than another bedroom or two in the house.
	Right?
	Because you're their mother.
	And strangers can't do the job.
	Even grandparents can't do the job, particularly if their parenting style is going to be quite different from yours.
	Right?
	In other words, they don't have the experience of how to play with children and interact with children in the way that you do.
	No.
	So, when your husband comes home or your husband says the kitchen is a mess, what is he trying
	to communicate to you?
	And I don't mean like what your paranoia or your fantasy like what why do you think he's saying that?
	He Well, I mean
	I would really like this to be tidy.
	OK, I would really like this to be tidy.
	So, why is he saying it rather than tidying up?
	I mean, if he was home alone, let's say that you and your daughters for some reason were away for a couple of weeks, and he was home alone, do you think he'd just sit there and look at a messy kitchen and say, boy, that kitchen is a really messy kitchen!
	He might.
	He does talk to himself.
	But then what would he do?
	Either swear at it a lot or tidy it up.
	I mean, I think that's what he did actually do.
	He said that and then he went and tidied it up afterwards.
	Okay, so if he comes home and he says that the kitchen is really messy, then he'd go and tidy it up, right?
	Okay.
	So, is he saying the kitchen is really messy because he is chuffed at you not tidying it up?
	Or it not being tidy already?
	No, because I don't really do... I mean, he's cooking all the meals at the moment.
	He works from home.
	So, I don't really do much in the kitchen.
	Okay.
	So, it's not a criticism of you that the kitchen is messy, but rather a notation for him to tidy it up.
	Is that right?
	I would think so, yeah.
	He does tend to share all these things, and I'm not used to that.
	His dream of consciousness husband.
	Yeah.
	It's funny because for women it's like, he's not emotionally available, and for some women it's like, he's way too emotionally available.
	I can stand a life without constant subtitles, but that's just not the way it is.
	All right. Okay, so then, if you get tense or frustrated or upset because he's making a comment
	about how he's messed up the kitchen and I assume that to some degree it's his job to clean it up,
	right?
	Okay?
	So there's something that goes on to you, though, which is different from what he's saying, right?
	So what is it that you're hearing that is upsetting to you?
	You're messy.
	Uh, right.
	And, of course, we know where that comes from, right?
	My mom.
	Good old mom, right?
	Now, are you aware that when your husband says, this kitchen's a mess, are you aware that that brings up all kinds of mom scars with you?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So then, is your husband aware that him saying that is a triggering event for you?
	No, I wouldn't have thought so.
	Now, why wouldn't he know that?
	Because I assume he knows that your mom was a bit of a neat freak, right?
	Yes.
	Do you know why your mom being a neat freak is annoying to you?
	Or was?
	No.
	Ah.
	So, the reason why neat freaks are annoying is because they're saying, I want the house to look perfect, but they don't say, it's really important that my husband is home to help me raise the children.
	So it's all about appearance.
	The house has to look nice and tidy, but I don't care who's unhappy in it.
	Right.
	It's a little psycho in my view.
	I'm not saying your mom's a psycho.
	I'm just saying it's a little psycho to say the only thing that matters is whether the plates are put away in the right place.
	It doesn't matter whether my children are actually happy in the household.
	Yes.
	It doesn't matter whether I play with them.
	It doesn't matter whether I teach them or instruct them or take delight in their company or enjoy spending time with them or seek them out.
	It doesn't matter.
	That doesn't matter at all.
	What matters is, is the dishwasher stacked in the Efficient and correct manner.
	It's a complete set of insane priorities.
	Yes, yes I- I don't think I'd have chosen that quite the same way.
	But that's what's so annoying about it.
	It's like, well, you care more about the location of the cutlery than you do about the happiness of your children.
	That's crazy.
	Yeah.
	As a mother, she should care more about her children than the house, right?
	Yes.
	Now, that of course doesn't mean that everyone lives in a pigsty because children can't be happy if they're constantly getting eye infections from the cutlery, but it does mean that parents should focus more on the happiness of their children than the precision of the household tidiness, right?
	Yes.
	Now, of course, you couldn't say to your mother at any point, I assume, Mom, it doesn't matter how tidy the house is, it matters how happy your children are, and we're not happy.
	I'm hiding in my room.
	Your son is kind of on a rampage.
	He's incredibly cruel.
	He told me that I was adopted.
	He frightens me with spiders.
	He's just mean and cruel all over the place.
	Why don't you deal with that, Mom, rather than where my plate is and whether I've got a coaster under my cup?
	No, that never came up.
	Well, it couldn't, right?
	Because that would completely short-circuit your mom's brain, wouldn't it?
	Yes.
	Because your mom, like your dad, focused on fairly inconsequential material things rather than the happiness and closeness of the entire family unit.
	Yes.
	Your mom liked to tidy things because the family was a mess.
	And she didn't want to deal with the mess of the family, so she dealt with the mess of the household.
	Which only made the mess of the family even worse.
	Because you kept seeing your mother caring about inconsequential things rather than your happiness.
	Which makes you resentful, and in my view, rightly so.
	Yeah.
	So, when your husband says, this is a mess, He knows your history.
	And so, you know, it's not like our history should dominate and dictate everything that everyone does around us, but it is the case that we need to be sensitive about our partner's history.
	Right?
	So he knows that you had a materially controlling mother with entirely deranged priorities.
	It's possible I haven't told them as much about that as I probably should have done.
	Well, I think, but that's a self-knowledge thing too, right?
	Because if you didn't have to erase yourself to be around your parents, you'd say, oh, well, yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, the place is a mess, and, you know, I get a little triggered by this, it's not your fault, but, you know, I get a little triggered by this because my mom spent my entire childhood nagging me about stupid things without protecting me from my crazy brother, or, you know, absent father, or, like, bringing him home, or anything like that, right?
	So my mom had all the wrong priorities, right?
	Yeah.
	You know, like I've seen parents more upset about a tiny ding in the car than a truly traumatized and wounded child.
	I mean, it's crazy, crazy stuff.
	It's this weird material fetish for things to look perfect rather than for people to be happy.
	I don't get it really, but I know that it's sort of very common.
	So, because you don't have the past as much as you could, because you have to self-erase to be around your parents, then You don't notice the triggers as much, you haven't talked to your husband about the triggers as much, and so he doesn't know enough to help you not be triggered.
	Yeah.
	But if the past becomes real, then it's like, oh yeah, every time you put your hand there you get burned, so I will stop putting my hand there.
	Because, I mean, your husband doesn't want to trigger you.
	Of course not, right?
	Now, of course, we don't want to sit there and say, well, this upsets me, therefore you can never do this, and you don't want your past to then end up dominating and he can't do anything or, you know.
	But, you know, obviously, if there's things that you're sensitive to, which is the case for all of us, right, there are things that you're sensitive to, then your husband should do his best to try and avoid that, right?
	And, you know, you need to be cognizant of that as well.
	He's been pretty good when I've actually told him things have upset me.
	I just sort of expect him to No things upset me without telling him.
	Well, that's because you grew up in a family which doesn't communicate about thoughts and feelings.
	And so it goes against the grain for you to talk about thoughts and feelings, right?
	But then what happens is you end up imagining that somehow he can inhabit your brain and know things that are even invisible to you.
	Well, that's not reasonable, right?
	No.
	It's not reasonable.
	We're men.
	We need it skywritten.
	We need it tattooed on your cleavage or something like that.
	I don't know what we need, but we need something that's pretty clear, right?
	I thought you didn't like tattoos?
	Yes, maybe henna.
	Or something like that.
	But yeah.
	See that?
	See?
	You're good at hypocrisy, right?
	You're good at catching hypocrisy.
	That's a superpower, man.
	That's good stuff.
	Man, you're like my daughter.
	But better.
	So no, that's great.
	See, that was like instantaneous.
	I can see why you get the six figures, man.
	Don't tell me your job, but I bet you it has something to do with detecting inconsistencies.
	It's not a job.
	There's thousands of people who do it.
	It's a software engineer.
	Oh, okay.
	So that's all about logical consistency, right?
	Because bugs are inconsistencies.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So listen, we've been talking for a good old time and I just, does that sort of give you a place to start from?
	I know, I mean, I really appreciate this because I always find it fascinating to root around in the cellars of people's lives, but has this been relatively helpful for you?
	Oh, it's been brilliant.
	It's great.
	I just didn't see any of this.
	It's so unusual to have a conversation with someone where they bring out stuff you haven't seen before.
	Well, you're going to see it all now, man, because once we've unleashed that software engineer consistency brain on your family, no stone will be left unturned.
	None shall pass.
	All right.
	Well, listen, will you keep me posted about how it's going?
	Yeah, I definitely will.
	Fantastic.
	Well, I appreciate that, and do say hi to your husband for me.
	I'm glad that he's a listener, and I'm sure he'll... He's not a listener, actually.
	Really?
	Oh, I thought he was.
	You come up in conversations quite often at the moment.
	Excellent.
	Well, you know, I'm sure he'll send me an angry email.
	No, I'm kidding, right, because I'm on his side too.
	So, all right.
	Well, keep me posted about how it's going.
	Really do appreciate the conversation today.
	All right.
	Thank you very much.
	All the best.

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