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Aug. 15, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:15:42
MY FATHER OFFERED ME A PROSTITUTE! Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Hello?
Hey, how's it going?
That's better?
Yeah, I can hear you.
I can hear you.
All right.
Well, I appreciate your time.
Let's get going.
How can I best help you?
Okay, so my call was about the issue of me being single still at the age of 23.
If I can bring up my original calling topic, maybe I can read it.
Go for it.
Okay, give me just one moment.
Okay.
Greetings, Stef.
I am a 23-year-old male from Greece who has been following since 2019.
I was always fascinated by the call-in shows, and specifically how no matter the situation, you had great advice that I would never think of.
I carefully watched the recent episode with A man around my age with the same issue as me, but his situation seems very different from mine.
I was raised in a household that from the outside appears normal and good, but it's different inside.
My father thinks it's shameful that I am still a virgin and keeps telling me that I should have been in a relationship by now.
I just cannot figure out what is wrong.
I know it's not my looks.
It is not bad luck.
It is not a woman.
So what is wrong with me?
Yep, that's it.
All right.
And so, yeah, well, I appreciate you having listened for a long time and I'm sure we can do some useful stuff.
So, do you want to date?
Do you want to have a girlfriend?
Yes, absolutely.
I'm not sure what's been holding me back, actually.
Recently, I've been asking people around me, friends, my sister, people I can open up with, what do you think is wrong with me?
So that I can figure it out.
They've given me mixed answers.
My sister said there's nothing wrong with you.
Some have said that you're not social enough.
Sorry, you're not what?
I'm not social.
I don't meet many women through my show.
Oh, social enough.
Okay, got it.
Sorry.
Yeah, sorry for the heavy accent.
Yeah.
Those are the answers I mostly got from my friends.
Nothing very clear that would point me in the right direction.
I recently watched your call-in show with a 30-year-old virgin.
Oh, did you get the time flash?
Oh, no!
Right.
Oh, yes, I did.
But what I got from that was that you said in that show that when you meet a woman and she doesn't know who you are, The way she filters whether or not you are a good partner will be by the way you feel about yourself.
And she will read through your insecurities if they exist.
And once she catches on to that, she will think, okay, this man is insecure.
He is insecure for some reason.
I'm not interested.
And I think this is a big problem for me because I do have insecurities whenever I am in a situation where I approach a woman.
I get very worried and even most recently I think I missed an opportunity because of stress, because I was insecure.
But I do not know what is causing that insecurity deep down so I can overcome it, fix it, improve myself.
This is where I am at.
Yeah.
So, I mean, you know, people say insecurity.
It just seems like a big bucket that people put stuff.
I don't really know what it means or how it's actionable or what changes if you have that insight, but I'm obviously happy to hear.
So what's your theory about the insecurity?
Tell me a little more about that.
Yeah.
I've noticed... Let me think about it...
I think that perhaps I am perceived as a little different, socially awkward perhaps.
perhaps.
This is something a friend of mine also said about me when I asked him, what do you think is wrong with me?
I'm perhaps afraid that I will embarrass myself, If I get rejected by a girl, other people will talk behind my back.
It's hard to pinpoint exactly what is going on.
But it's something intense.
For example, I messaged a girl a few months ago, and while waiting for her responses at night, I could not sleep.
I was having this feeling of ants crawling all over me, and I could not sleep for the whole night.
So this means something's going on there.
I don't know what.
Okay, so it doesn't sound like there is much knowledge that comes out of this label called insecure.
Yeah.
Got it, okay.
So, what does the word insecure mean to you?
Why would you use that?
I mean you could use any word, so what does it mean to you?
Well, I associate it with the anxiety I feel when approaching a woman, when talking to a woman.
one.
Perhaps fear.
There is fear there, I would say that.
And this fear, this anxiety, causes me to do things that... It messes up with my performance, the way I speak.
And that makes...
Sorry, are you touching the microphone, or twisting, or thumping?
I'm getting lots of thumps in my ear.
Oh, sorry, I did not do that.
I don't know.
No problem.
I was just moving around a little.
Yeah, if you could just try and hold still, because it's a little distracting.
Okay, okay.
Got that.
Yeah, as I was saying, for me, insecurity is anxiety, fear, the feeling that something will go wrong.
Something like that.
Okay.
So, that is life.
I'm not sure why that would be so particular, if that makes sense.
I mean, in everything that you do, something could go wrong, and things could go badly, and you could get rejected, and things might fail.
I'm trying to sort of figure out...
I mean, that's everyone.
That's called breathing, right?
It's like if you said, well, why can't I talk to women?
Well, I'm breathing.
And it's like, well, everyone's breathing!
Everyone is upset about these things, and everybody's worried about these things.
You know, everybody who's a guy approaches a girl and wants to date her, and then maybe she'll say no.
So, sorry, again, I'm just trying to sort of understand, why would it be different for you, if that makes sense?
Can I think for a second?
Again, listen, no, thinking is what we do, so I'm pleased to be here.
Okay, yeah.
No, no thinking on the Philosophy Show.
Okay, let's see.
Perhaps it comes from a lack of experience when it comes to flirting, when it comes to those things.
No, sorry.
You have to give me something that's not common to everyone.
Everyone who starts flirting has a lack of experience with flirting.
Yeah, but I'm 33 years old.
I understand that.
I don't know.
But the answer is not... The answer is not enough.
Right?
Because if you say, well, I'm... But because you had this from the beginning, right?
Yes.
Okay, so everybody has, from the beginning, we don't know how to flirt, we don't know what we're doing, we, you know, we try to figure out what women like, or girls like, and so, again, that's not particular to you.
Because we need to have something that's not common to everyone.
Because if you say something like, well, I'm nervous around women because I have two legs, right, to take a silly example, right?
I'm nervous around women because I have two legs.
And you say, well, every man has two legs.
Why would that be particular to you?
So we need to find something that's particular to you.
Hmm.
Something that's particular to me.
Okay.
I'm really not sure.
Yeah, I don't know.
No, that's good, because you had an answer that didn't make much sense, which I understand.
We all have that problem, right?
Okay, so that's actually good news, I think.
It's good news that we don't know.
Okay.
Because the other thing, too, is that if you say, well, my problem with girls is insecurity, but it wasn't at the beginning, right?
Now we can say, well, gee, I have all of this insecurity because, my gosh, I'm 33 or whatever, right?
So, but that wouldn't have been the case at the beginning, if that makes sense?
Yes.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
Okay.
So, what might it be?
Have you had any dating experience?
Not really.
I haven't dated.
There have been some opportunities, let's say, the closest thing to dating.
I get nervous, for example, I can recall approaching a girl at a party.
A friend of mine took me by the hand, essentially, to do it.
Sorry, you approached a girl at a party?
Yes.
And she took you by the hand and said, let's do it?
No, no, no.
A friend of mine took me, essentially, by the hand so that I can go talk to her.
He introduced me, we shook hands with a woman, and then after that I froze and I just walked away, for example.
I didn't know what to say.
Right.
More recently, I messaged this girl from school.
We were in the school parade together, the national parade at the country's Independence Day.
From there, I sent her a friend request on Facebook.
She accepted.
I sent her a happy birthday because I knew her birthday was recently.
Then I asked her, how are you doing?
She sent me a selfie with her friends immediately.
That was a good sign.
I thought so.
But then I would start asking my sister for every message, what to send, because I didn't know what to send.
As I told you, I could not sleep at those nights.
I was very nervous.
And by the end of it, I just was worried.
I thought, okay, let's end this.
Let's just ask her out for a coffee.
Even if she says no, at least I won't have to wait for the stress of messaging again.
She said no.
I'm still not over her.
I actually dream about her.
But yeah, that was done.
Other than that, there have been some opportunities, some friends of my sister who were interested in me because I am pretty good looking, actually.
Looks are not the problem.
But I was not interested in them, you know, those things.
Okay, and I guess first questions, you know, we're adult males, we can, I assume, talk about this stuff.
So, how do you deal with your sexual drive?
Do you use pornography?
Do you masturbate?
I mean, how do you deal with just, you know, that you're a man and you are a seed-bearer and we like orgasms?
Yeah, I do masturbate.
I do not use pornography, though.
Maybe even think about an attractive girl from school, or I will use an Instagram profile, for example.
I usually look at the face, I don't care about the body so much.
Okay.
She has a beautiful face.
Now, have you had a medical checkup, blood work, you know, all this kind of stuff?
Yeah, those are all healthy.
I just did my blood work a few days ago.
The only Two things were slightly off.
I don't know how to say them in English, but they're not related to anything sexual.
Okay.
Got it.
Yeah.
All right.
So, generally, men don't date because they don't want a life like their fathers, but they don't know how to get something different.
Hmm.
How does that fit?
They don't want a life like their fathers.
Okay.
When I think about my father's life in relationship to my mother, of course, right?
Yes, well, and his children and all of that.
Do you want your father's life?
There are some things about it I look up to and some other things where I would do differently, yeah.
My father is, in terms of career, he's a successful man.
His career is something I'm proud of, but in terms of his family life, Well, first of all, he's 13 years older than my mother.
This has always been weird to me.
I know it's not so rare, but to me it's a little weird.
My mother is also very sensitive as a person and sometimes can get very emotional, very argumentative.
And I thought, why would you?
They have those silly arguments of old couples that they have, you know?
And I thought, why would you want to live this life?
Okay, so you don't want your father's home life?
Yeah, and as a father, I think he also failed to... My sister and I agree with this.
We were both... Our parents loved us, but they did not earn our respect.
So, by the time we were in middle school, we were already outsmarting our parents.
You see, your father's very successful, right?
Yes, yes, yes.
So he's smart?
Yes, I suppose so.
Sorry?
This is something I could never figure this out.
At home he seems not smart, outside he seems very smart.
This was a mystery to me always.
Okay.
So, you put your father is smart.
I mean, you can play dumb, you can't play smart, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, your father is smart, so how are you and your sister outsmarting him?
You say he plays dumb at home?
I think, for example, every time we would get into an argument, me and my sister would always win the argument.
Maybe he was indifferent, maybe he did not try, because he was so invested in his outside life.
And this was something my sister would agree with.
He was so sorry what with his outside life?
He was invested in his career, his outside life.
Okay, so he didn't invest in his children?
My sister would agree with that, yeah.
And so you both agree with that, right?
My opinion is a little mixed, because there are times we have our father's own moments.
He will, if I ask him something, you know, I want to, let's say, I want to go to the shooting range.
He will take me there.
If I ask him, I want to meet some of those people you meet outside in your world, he will take me places.
No, but that's passive, right?
That's just reacting.
What did he do as a father?
Okay, let me ask you this.
What advice did your father give you over the course of your childhood and teenage years?
What advice did he give you that you still use today?
Yeah, he told me not to be very shy, which is something I try to improve.
No, that's not advice.
Yeah, be more confident is not advice.
Let's take your doctor.
The doctor's advice is Eat better, exercise, here's what to do.
The doctor's advice isn't just be healthier, like that doesn't help you, right?
So it needs to be actual advice that you can do, right?
I mean, don't be shy is not advice.
Okay.
Otherwise, you know, you just call me up and I'd say, succeed with women and I'd hang up.
Would that be helpful to you?
Yeah, no, it would not be.
Okay, so, I mean, advice, advice, like things that were helpful and useful and wise that you still find a value to this day.
Yeah, I cannot think of anything out of the top of my head.
Okay, so you weren't parented by your father.
Because parenting is about the transmission of wisdom that lasts a lifetime.
Right?
Yes.
Okay.
What about your mother?
Did your mother give you helpful advice that you think of to this day and remains helpful in the present?
No, I don't think so.
What I took from my mother was her kindness as a person, but I don't think I took anything specific.
I would never feel like I could come to my parents and ask them for advice.
I never felt that.
Okay, so you were not parented?
I suppose so, yes.
No, I mean, if I'm unfair, if parenting is the transmission of wisdom, then your parents didn't transmit any wisdom to you, then by definition you weren't parented.
Oh, yes.
By that definition of parenting, I was not parenting.
Yes.
I mean, I was taken care of by material things.
No, of course you were.
I understand that you didn't starve to death.
Yes.
I accept and understand that.
Okay.
I'm with you a hundred percent.
A hundred percent.
Okay.
So, why didn't your parents parent you?
Hmm.
I think that In my opinion, it's not that they did not want to, it's that perhaps they couldn't.
I don't think they would have much to say to me.
I'm sorry, your father is successful in his career.
Yes.
Your father was successful in dating, getting engaged, getting married, and having children.
So your father knows how to do these things.
Right?
Yes.
So when you say they couldn't, I mean, it's incomprehensible to me.
It's like, well, my father was an expert sailor.
Well, why didn't he teach you sailing?
Well, he couldn't.
Yeah, I understand.
I understand.
Okay, so let's try that again.
And please try not to, you know, waste your time with silly defenses, okay?
Why didn't your parents parent you?
Maybe.
They could.
They both were successful.
They could.
Okay.
Maybe part of the reason was that I always felt uncomfortable with opening up to them.
So perhaps I'm partly to blame in this.
I built this relationship where We do not talk about our feelings, our private stuff, man.
I'm sorry, since when did I say that you have to talk about your feelings in order to be parented?
Oh.
Well, I assume that you would have to.
Right now I am talking about my feelings in a way, aren't I?
Okay, let me sort of back up a little.
Yes, yes.
When you first got interested in girls, I assume early to mid-teens, right?
Now your father would have been perfectly aware of this because he himself is a male, right?
Yes.
So your father knew that you were getting interested in girls, right?
Yes.
Now your father had successfully gotten a girl.
I'm sure he had more than one girlfriend, right?
Yes.
Okay.
So how did your father help you learn how to interact with and talk to girls?
Something he knows how to do, and you need to learn how to do.
The only thing he did was offer to take me to a prostitute, but I refused many times.
Sorry, what the fuck now?
He told me to take me to, you know, to a prostitute for my first time.
In your teens?
Not when I was 13, when I was a little older, when we realized that... Okay, how old were you when your father wanted to pay for a prostitute to conduct statutory rape on his son?
Okay, let me think about this.
When did he first say this?
Okay, I was certainly an adult, I was certainly 18 by then.
Okay, I thought, so why are you flipping time on me here?
I'm asking about your early to mid teens and now you're flipping to adulthood.
I mean, it's appalling either way, but it's, I guess, slightly less appalling if you're an adult.
Okay, so, you're interested in girls.
You don't know what to do, because nobody does.
It's not like a beaver building a dam, right?
I mean, they instinctively do that.
We don't know that, right?
And of course, we don't watch our parents' courtship.
Right, because they're together when we're there.
So we don't see our parents courtship.
So your father knows that you're interested in girls.
How does he tell you?
What information does he give you about how to succeed with girls?
Well, I suppose I was not given anything.
He would take interest in the sense that he would ask me, do you have a girlfriend?
Do you plan on So, did you lie to him about having a girlfriend, or did you tell him the truth that you did not have a girlfriend?
No, I always said the truth.
So, he realizes, over the course of your teenage life, that you're not dating, right?
And did you lie to him about having a girlfriend or did you tell him the truth that you did
not have a girlfriend?
No, I always said the truth.
So he realizes over the course of your teenage life that you're not dating, right?
Yeah.
So before the prostitute thing, he didn't give you any advice or say, let's figure out
what's going on or what's not happening or something like that, right?
No, no.
He was never one to sit down and have a conversation, an intelligent conversation.
Yeah, I don't think.
I cannot imagine that.
Okay.
Now, what about your mother?
She knows what girls like, to some degree, because she's a female and she Likes your father, and I'm sure she had other boyfriends at some point.
So what did your mother do to help you learn how to talk to girls?
Nothing.
Nothing.
On the plus side, I guess she didn't offer to get you a prostitute.
No.
Yeah, no.
Okay, so over the course of, you know, 13 or 14, when you start getting interested in girls, Yes.
I'm not sure.
of 18 or 19 when your father was dangling whores in front of you, nobody helped you.
So for like half a decade or more, nobody helped you.
Yes.
Why not?
I'm not sure, perhaps they assumed it would happen naturally.
No, it never happens naturally.
Yeah.
No, like it never happens naturally.
And we know that because every culture has different standards.
British culture is more reserved, Turkish culture is more aggressive, right?
American culture is more hedonistic, and so on.
Irish culture tends to be more drunken, right?
So how you approach girls differs in each culture, which means it has to be transmitted.
I mean, our capacity for language is innate, but how it manifests is specific to the language we learn as children, right?
It is, yes.
Okay.
So, I want you to understand something.
Your father was the beneficiary of thousands and thousands of generations of fathers who gave a shit about their children and made sure they knew how to talk to girls.
Right?
Every single one of your father's ancestors taught their sons how to talk to girls.
Your father decided to break that chain of thousands of generations, hundreds of thousands of millions of years.
He decided to say, fuck it.
He's on his own.
Which is a radical break with the entire tradition of human beings.
It's like he's saying, ah, you know, the kid will figure out language on his own as an adult.
Yeah.
I'm not going to teach him the names for anything.
I'm not going to teach him any language.
I'm not going to teach him how to write.
He'll just figure this shit out on his own.
I understand that.
This makes sense, because there are other aspects of my life where he was not there to teach me. For example, he used to work out. He was
very good at it, but he never taught me anything when it comes to going to the gym, even though
I do go to the gym. I learned everything myself. At school, he never taught me how to study. Granted,
he barely finished high school, but that's another story. Yeah. I understand what you're
saying.
Anyway, why didn't he teach you anything? All the knowledge he had that helped him to be successful.
And why did your mother not teach you anything?
Or why didn't your mother say, listen, my husband, you gotta talk to your son.
He's not doing well.
I am not sure.
Well, you are.
I mean, sorry to be annoying, but you are sure.
Everybody knows.
I mean, if you don't know your parents, you can't know anyone.
Because, I mean, you've had decades of exposure to them, right?
You've known them as a conscious human being for 30 years.
So if you don't know anything about your parents or you can't figure out something about your parents, then it's not true.
You can't be around people for 30 years and not have any clue why they do something or don't do something.
Hey James.
Alright, would you like a little help?
Yes, yes, of course.
So, let's go with a nice good Greek name.
George, right?
Yep.
So, if George buys a dog, a big dog, right?
Now, dogs need to be walked and need to be socialized, right?
Because they're social animals that need their exercise, right?
Yes.
Now, if George buys a big dog, doesn't play with it and doesn't walk it.
Why would that happen? Why would George buy a big dog, keep it inside, never walk
it and never play with it?
I would say that he's distracted by something else.
Ok.
But George voluntarily chose to be a dog owner.
He's lazy.
Okay, maybe he's lazy.
What else?
Maybe... Maybe the choice was not so voluntary.
Maybe he was... No, no.
Choice is voluntary.
No, no.
He chose to be... Your parents chose to be parents, right?
This is the analogy, right?
So he chose to be a dog owner.
the end.
If he's lazy, he wouldn't bother getting the dog in the first place.
Or, if he found out that the dog was more work than he thought, and he's lazy, he'd just find someone to take in the dog.
Take the dog to the shelter, or give the dog to someone else.
That's too much work, right?
Why would he keep the dog, and not walk the dog, and not play with the dog?
thus driving the dog slowly crazy.
Why would you do that?
I don't know.
Because he's a sadist.
A sadist?
Oh.
Nobody made him get the dog, but he chose to get the dog, and then he chose to not do what the dog desperately needs in order to be happy.
He doesn't walk the dog, he doesn't play with the dog, and the dog desperately needs him to, So maybe he feels good because he withholds what the dog desperately needs, the dog's desperately whining and trying to get at him and he enjoys that sense of power for not giving the dog what the dog needs?
I don't know.
Oh, yes.
I see it, yes.
I can see it with my father especially.
Alright, so tell me if this analogy fits and how.
It does with my father.
I'm not so sure with my mother, but it does with my father.
I can imagine my father Acting in sadistic ways on our daily lives.
For example, let's say I'm in my room and I'm listening to something on the computer.
He will be in his own room or in the living room.
He will not be able to hear it.
But if he steps into my room, he will immediately demand that I lower the volume, even though he's about to leave.
Maybe he's about to leave the house, but he still demands that I lower the volume.
Why would he do that, if not for control and sadism?
Okay, so earlier you said that you and your sister love your parents.
Yes.
Does that still seem like an uncontroversial statement to you?
That we love them or that they love us?
No, that you love them.
Oh, you said also your parents loved you, but there's love floating around, right?
Yes.
No, no, it does seem... I would still say I love my parents.
I would die for them.
I would still say that, despite their flawed behaviors.
I would still say that, yes.
Okay, that's fine.
So what do you love about your parents?
Well, the truth is that no matter what happens, no matter what happens in my life, I know, even if every friend were to turn on me, I know I would still have my parents, and not just materially.
I know they would care for me, even if they do not give me necessarily advice, even if I'm not comfortable talking to them about things.
I still feel they care for me.
I do feel that, yes.
Okay, so how do we know whether someone cares for us?
And I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to understand your thinking on this.
How do we know if someone cares about us?
Well, anyone can say that, right?
But how do we know?
If they do things without conditions.
Do things without conditions, okay.
Yes, they do not ask for anything in return.
They do things for you without any cause, just for you.
Okay, so they do things that benefit you even if it's at their own expense, right?
Yes.
Okay.
So then why can't you talk to your parents about anything?
Because it would benefit you, even if it makes them uncomfortable, it would benefit you to be able to talk honestly and openly about your thoughts and feelings with your parents, but you don't do it because it makes them uncomfortable.
But they should do it because they care about you.
And it's good for you.
Well, it makes me uncomfortable for a start.
I'm sorry, say again?
It makes me uncomfortable to talk about... No, but it makes you uncomfortable because it makes them uncomfortable.
You're being sensitive to them.
Right?
Because I assume that we're having a pretty open conversation and I think you're doing a fantastic job and I'm enjoying the conversation.
So, you can do it, right?
Yes.
Do you feel horrible talking to me about these things?
Not at all.
Okay, good.
So the discomfort you feel with your parents is their discomfort.
Them signaling you emotionally to shut up and stop talking.
Because it makes them uncomfortable.
Okay.
I mean, is that wrong?
I think that perhaps what is going on is that...
But I.
I am uncomfortable talking about this to my parents because I am perhaps humiliating myself, talking about how I am lost and they will think little of me.
No, no, but this is the effect, right?
So when you're 12 or 13 and your father says, okay son, like you're getting interested in girls, let's talk about it and so on, right?
Let's figure it out, let's, you know, because the fundamental job of a father is to make his son romantically attractive.
That's the base job!
Yes.
Because if you don't do that job, the bloodline ends!
Yeah.
The name ends!
It's all been for nothing!
Thousands of generations, billions of years, all leading up to your father making sure you're attractive to females!
That's the whole job!
And he fucked it up, completely!
He did, yes.
And you say, but he cares about you.
I'd like to know how you define that, because it doesn't make any sense to me.
That doesn't mean that I'm right.
I'm just telling you, I... If I said, okay, your one job is to fix this motor.
Right?
And every single time, you break the motor, even worse.
And I say, but he's a good worker!
People could ask me, okay, how are you defining good worker?
Because he's got one job, which is to fix the motor, every time he touches it, he breaks it even worse.
So how is he a good worker?
Like, it's okay to ask for these definitions, right?
So if your father cares about you...
Then why are you talking to me?
Because... Because perhaps you will have some answers, and you will most certainly have some answers that she will not have.
No, but you can't even have the conversation with him!
So, he cares about you, but you can't communicate with him the basic and most essential agony of your life, which is being without a date, right?
So how does he care about you if you can't talk to him about what you think and feel?
And don't blame yourself because he defines the relationship.
I've been a parent for almost 16 years.
Parents define the relationship.
It's on him.
It's not on you.
and if he feels uncomfortable about a conversation that is essential for your happiness and he shuts you down and won't respond then sorry he's just an asshole he's not caring in that moment for sure because he should prefer that which is better for you to that which is immediately comfortable for him but if he keeps rejecting you For what makes him comfortable in the moment, that's not love by your definition, right?
Your definition was doing things for other people, even at your own expense, right?
And it would be beneficial to you to have this conversation with your father, but he just won't allow it and he never has.
That's not love.
But again, I'm happy to hear another definition.
I'll do the next thing, okay?
What if...
What if he wanted to help me, but he failed?
What? He's one? Well, no, but then you would remember him trying to help you.
Yes.
And you don't.
Yeah.
No, the prostitute thing is straight up sabotage.
He's saying, you're so unattractive, I have to pay a woman to sleep with you.
That is incredibly, that's vile and destructive and such sabotage.
My tongue can scarcely encompass how terrible that is.
Yeah.
Well, son, all that's left is for me to pay some broken, abused woman to sleep with you.
I mean, my God.
That was his first time as well with a prostitute.
Right.
He told her that, yeah.
Okay.
So how on earth did he get your mother to marry him?
Did she know he'd slept with a prostitute to lose his virginity?
I don't know what she knows.
Sorry, could you please do me a favor?
Stop playing with the microphone.
Thumb, thumb, thumb, thumb.
It's really annoying.
Thank you.
I'm so sorry.
I know that I don't know what she knows about my father's past, but they met at a party, that's what I know.
Okay.
All right.
But does she know that your father suggested that you lose your virginity to a prostitute?
No, I do not believe she does.
Well, but they must have talked about it, like they must have talked about, you know, parents talk a lot about their kids, right?
So they must have talked about, oh, our son is not able to find a date, and I guess your father said, let me try something, and she'd say what, or she'd say, I've got it, or whatever, right?
Well, this is not something my father would bring up to my mother, or to my sister, or to the woman in the family in general.
Okay, got it, got it.
All right.
And, sorry, and honestly, I'll say this one more time, you just did the microphone thing again?
I'm so sorry.
Like, what is going on?
I'm not sure, I'm... I don't know, maybe I'm flatting my head so then it... I will... Okay.
I will try to stay completely still.
I just need you to sit still and not play with the headset, or the cords.
Yep.
You're okay? Thank you.
So...
Do you think that your father didn't get instructed and that's why he didn't teach you?
Possibly, yes.
I do not know exactly my father's childhood, but I do know he moved out at an early age.
Okay.
Now, is it possible that your father learned something about wooing women after the prostitute, but before he married your mother?
Yes.
He must have, right?
Yes.
Okay, got it.
Alright, so he learned something that he didn't pass along to you, right?
Yes, most likely.
All he has told me about his childhood is that he moved out of the... He was raised in a village in the mountains, in some island, and he moved out very early.
He was working in the day, going to school at night.
I do not know the details exactly.
But his social life, he had friends, he was hanging out at the clubs as a young adult, those things.
Oh, so he was going to clubs and he was meeting girls and chatting with girls and picking up girls, I'm not saying just for sex or whatever, but he had that life, right?
Yes, yes, he did.
Okay, got it, got it.
Okay, so he knew how to talk to girls?
Yes.
Right, not perfectly, but you know, he knew.
Okay, all right.
So your other question, your question was, how do we know, or how can we be sure that, like, maybe he tried to help you but fails, right?
So first of all, this is not something you can fail at, as a father.
Like, you can't fail at that, because that's the whole job.
Right?
So, if you say, well, he tried, but it didn't work, it's like if you have a mysterious ailment You're a kid, right?
You're sick with something and your father or your mother, what they do is they take you to a walking clinic, right?
So you've got some weird stomach thing, right?
Your stomach hurts or something, right?
So they take you to a walking clinic and the people at the walking clinic, the doctor, usually kind of in a rush and usually just used to dealing with sore throats and stuff, right?
So the doctor then says, I don't know what's wrong with him.
What should the parents do?
Go to another doctor or something?
I don't know.
Right.
Right.
You go to another doctor, you go to a specialist, you get referrals.
You don't just go once to the walking clinic and then say, oh well, I guess there's nothing we can do, right?
Yeah.
So if your father is unable to help you talk to girls, even though he can do it, if your father is unable to help you talk to girls, He tries and he fails, then what?
What does he do?
He would try a therapist, which he did.
I used to go to a therapist in middle school.
Well, I don't know that he'd go straight to a therapist.
Oh, okay.
Right?
So if your father knows how to talk to girls but for some reason he can't teach you how to do it
then what are his options?
What are his options?
He could...
uh Perhaps he could try to introduce me to some new friends who were more social, who maybe had girlfriends, maybe through them I would meet someone, learn how to flirt, those things.
Could be that.
I mean, there could be a male friend or relative who's better at talking to girls.
Yeah.
And he would get that person to help you.
I mean, that would be the most likely scenario.
You didn't have to go straight to therapy.
You're like, oh, well, I've tried to teach my kid how to talk to girls.
I haven't had any luck doing it.
So that's all right.
I'll get my uncle, Georg, who's a real player.
He'll talk to him and he'll teach him how to do it.
There's lots of options, right?
Yeah, I understand.
Maybe those options were not available to him because Maybe he was embarrassed to say this to his friends and his family.
Okay, I mean, I'm not sure how much time we want to waste here, because you just keep making these ridiculous excuses.
It's an insult to both of us, honestly.
I mean, come on.
That maybe he was embarrassed?
That doesn't mean anything.
Right?
I mean, let's say that you as a kid had some problem with your penis, right?
Yeah.
Right?
And then, your father said, well, I never dealt with it because I was embarrassed to talk to the doctors.
Would that make any sense at all?
No, no, it wouldn't.
Okay, so please, I don't know what you're doing, but these are ridiculous, these things that you're saying.
Okay.
I'm sorry about that.
Okay.
So why is it hard for you to criticize your father?
Or so hard?
Well, I don't have a problem necessarily with criticizing him.
I just cannot accept the idea that he'd not care about me.
Oh no, to me it's worse than not caring.
It's sabotage.
Sabotage, you think she was doing that?
Well, okay, so there's this, let me say this, right?
Yeah.
So, if I know my child has a big test coming up that only I know about, right?
Only I know about this big test, right?
And I don't tell my child about it, and then my child has the test and fails, I have sabotaged my child.
Yeah.
Right, so if my child has a driver's test coming up, and I don't tell my child about it, and I don't help my child practice, and I just drop my child off at the driver's test, I've sabotaged my child, right?
Yes.
So, there is a big test called talking to girls, and your father did not help you with it, and this is the result.
Everybody knows the test called talking to girls is coming along.
It's coming up, right?
Every boy knows that because everyone who's alive has successfully found a way, their parents at least, have successfully found a way to do that, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So your father knew there was a big test called talking to girls coming up.
He didn't help you, didn't provide you any advice.
Neither did your mother.
That's sabotage.
And then when it was apparent, That you were not finding a way to pass this test on your own, they still did nothing.
Other than your father saying, I'll pay a woman to sleep with you.
Yes.
So, that's sabotage.
Okay, I understand that.
And this has been going on for 20 years.
The age of 13, you start getting interested in girls.
I'm not saying you get a girlfriend at 13, but you start getting interested in girls around that age, right?
Give or take.
Yeah, yeah.
You're now 33.
23.
23, sorry.
So it's been going on for... It's funny, because you said 23 originally, then I thought you said 33, then 23.
Okay, so this has been going on for 10 years, right?
Okay, yes.
So, it's still not a topic of conversation in your family.
.
you Well, how can we help?
What can we do?
Right?
Nobody talks about it, right?
Yeah.
Which means they don't want to fix it.
I don't want to fix it.
Hmm.
See, it doesn't matter, you know, this is an old thing about politics, right?
The purpose of a system is what it actually does.
Right, so everyone says, oh, but the purpose of the welfare state is to help the poor.
It's like, okay, but it doesn't.
Yet it continues, and therefore the purpose of the welfare state is to destroy the family and buy votes from a dependent underclass.
Because that's what it does, and that's what it reliably does, right?
Ah, well, the purpose of the Federal Reserve is to stabilize the economy, and it never does.
The purpose of the Federal Reserve is to maneuver the giant levers of political power to get preferred candidates into office, right?
So, the purpose of the system is what it does, and especially what it consistently does, right?
Now, your family has consistently, for the last ten years, not helped you talk to girls.
Yeah.
So the purpose of your family is you don't talk to girls.
I don't know why that is the purpose, maybe it's sabotage, maybe it's something else, I don't know.
But that's what's reliably happening, right?
Repeatedly happening.
What about your extended family?
Have grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, anyone, has anyone sat you down and said, what's going on here?
No, no, no, nobody.
Okay.
So then they don't care.
This is the biggest issue in your life, and no one's talking to you about it.
I understand.
So then when you say there's all this love floating around, it's a little incomprehensible, right?
Yes.
So what should I do about this now?
Okay yeah this is just...
The next step, what do I do about this?
But you've listened to these call-in shows before, right?
Yes, many times.
So you know this is what everyone does, right?
Yes.
I try to give a big insight or a connection.
People don't process it at all emotionally.
what do they do?
Give me a list.
What do I do, right?
Oh, okay, yeah.
Now, what's the one thing that's a constant rule in these call-ins?
What do I always say I don't do with people?
You don't tell them what to do.
I don't tell them what to do.
So what's the first thing you're asking me?
What to do, yeah.
I understand the problem, yeah.
and it means that you want to jump over the emotional processing
and go into some kind of action which is impossible to define without the emotional processing.
This is still a little difficult for me to accept the fact that they just didn't care.
I can maybe understand it with my father.
Oh, your mother's like the parent who gets away, right?
Like, oh, my father maybe, but not my saint of a mother, right?
My angel of a mother.
Never could she do anything this negative, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, but your mother knows you don't talk to girls, right?
Yes.
And has she talked to you about it?
No, not exactly.
She did try to arrange to meet, to introduce me to a woman once.
Okay, how long ago was that?
This year, earlier this year.
Okay, so earlier this year.
She doesn't know why you haven't talked to girls for ten years, but she just says, well the problem is he just hasn't met a girl, so I'll just introduce him to a girl.
Yes, pretty much, yeah.
Alright.
So then she's saying, you don't have a problem, you just need to be fixed up with someone, to be hooked up with someone.
Yeah, and this is, again, this is an opinion shared by many in my circle.
They say there's nothing wrong with you, you just haven't met anyone yet.
Right.
Okay.
Now, how do they know there's nothing wrong with you?
Well, they see someone who is, of course, intelligent, good-looking, decently articulate perhaps, depending on the language, but Yeah, they see this and they see someone who is not missing anything.
There's nothing missing from me.
I'm not ugly.
I'm not stupid.
I'm not lost completely in life.
I have a plan, right?
So they see this and they see... And this is the question I'm asking myself.
What is wrong?
What is missing?
Okay, so they just look at some external markers that are unrelated to you not talking to girls and say, there's nothing wrong with you.
Yes.
Right, so if I have a big tumor growing out of my neck and my doctor looks at my leg, he says, well the leg's perfectly healthy, there's nothing wrong with you.
Okay.
Being good-looking doesn't mean that you can automatically talk to girls.
Being intelligent, being articulate, having a good job, it just doesn't mean that you automatically can talk to girls, right?
Yeah.
Yes.
Right.
Do you want a girlfriend?
Absolutely, yes.
Why?
Because sometimes I miss the female company, somebody I can open up with, somebody who will understand me.
Somebody so I won't feel alone so often.
Those things, perhaps.
I understand those things can be given from other sources.
Okay, so that's love, right?
Yes.
Okay, so then how does the word love describe opening up to and connecting with people, being honest and not being isolated with whatever the hell is going on with your family of origin?
Which is the exact opposite.
Can you ask that again?
So you say that I want a girlfriend because I want to open up to people and connect with the girl and have comfort and not be isolated and share my thoughts and feelings, right?
Yes.
But that's the opposite of what's happening with your family.
With your family, you can't talk about anything of importance, right?
You can't share your thoughts, you can't share your feelings, you can't be honest, you can't be open that way, right?
Yeah, I know.
So, how can you say that your family is love and the opposite of your family is love?
Being open and expressing yourself is love, and being closed off and not saying anything of importance is also love.
Like, bro, these are opposites!
Yeah, I understand the contradiction, yeah.
I see it.
And you know that that's at the root of it, right?
Okay, so let's play this out.
Give me the name of a girl you once liked.
Anna, right?
Okay, so let's say that you start hanging out with Anna, you go for coffee, you like each other and Anna is very warm and expressive and emotional and shares her thoughts and feelings and expects you to do the same, right?
Yes.
Okay, so then Anna gets close to you.
And she says, you know, let's meet your family.
Right?
Now Anna has been raised in a family where people talk about their feelings and connect and share concerns and all this, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Then Anna comes to your family and what does she see with you interacting with your family?
Small talk, nothing really.
To a relevant of a conversation, yeah.
And also you say to Anna, yes, my father wanted to buy me a prostitute on my 18th birthday.
And then Anna, being an open communicative person who doesn't like to hide things and doesn't like to be censored or silenced, says around the dinner table, so You wanted to buy a prostitute for my boyfriend's 18th birthday.
Can you help me understand that, because it troubles me?
Yeah.
So what happens?
I think we get defensive about it, I think.
My father would probably say that it was his time to do his thing, so...
I'm sorry, I don't know what you said there.
Your father said he started to do his thing?
I don't know what that means.
Oh, sorry, sorry, sorry.
Yeah, my father's best defense, I can imagine, would be it was time he stopped being a virgin.
That's the best I can imagine.
Okay.
So then she would say, so your son was 18 and hadn't talked to girls and your solution, as a family, was to buy him a prostitute.
And you still think that that was a good idea?
Yeah.
Not to figure out why he couldn't talk to girls, not to figure out if there was any problems in the family, not to figure out why he'd missed this boat or understand anything, but just buy him a prostitute.
Who could have diseases, who could be, you know, crazy, any number of things, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So, is it my understanding that this is not something that happened five years ago, and you're like, well, that was a bad idea, but I was desperate, but it's something that you still think is a good idea?
In other words, if I have a son with your son, right, and you're then the grandfather, if my son hasn't lost his virginity by his 18th birthday, you will then offer to buy him a prostitute?
Because that's the right thing to do and that's a sensible way to approach the problem.
At this point I can assure you my father would have checked out of the conversation.
No, but then she'd snap her fingers and say, no, no, no, I like your son, I really do, I really like your son, we might have a future together, which means I'm joining this family, right?
Now, I mean, I will expect you to review or the vet, right?
I would expect you to vet my family.
I would expect you to make sure that your son is not marrying into a bunch of crazy people, of course, right?
Because our families will join together.
And if my father or my mother have done something that is troubling to you, I would expect you to have a conversation about it.
And so, what I'm doing is an expression of my interest in your son.
So, it's a compliment, right?
It's a compliment.
If I didn't care about him, I wouldn't be asking these questions.
But I do.
So, you know, I would appreciate an answer.
Because if we are going to join our families together, I need to know what your values are.
What you stand for.
Right?
I mean, you agree with that, right?
I mean, she would say to your family, right?
Yeah.
I mean, if you were some kind of, you know, crazy cult leaders, we would need to know that, right?
And you can ask me anything, obviously.
This is a two-way street.
I'm not trying to bully anyone here.
You can ask me anything you want.
But I kind of need to know these things.
You would agree with that, right?
And I think you can also understand that for people whose families don't have a habit of buying prostitutes for their children when they turn 18, that from the outside, like not from what you're used to or, you know, whatever, right?
But from the outside, I think you could understand that this might be considered a bit unusual, right?
Yeah.
And so I just want to know what your thoughts are.
Now, if it was a bad idea, we can talk about that.
But if you still think it's a good idea, Then there may not be a great deal of compatibility between our families.
Because I don't lie to my family, right?
So once I know, like your son tells me this about your family, I'm not going to lie to my family and hide it.
And I'm going to say, well, I like this guy.
I have some questions about the family, right?
They seem to do a lot of small talk.
They didn't help him in terms of his loneliness and isolation and lack of romantic success as a teenager.
And his father wanted to buy him a prostitute when he turned 18.
Now, if her family is a quality, decent, good family, what are they going to think of all of this?
They're going to think negatively of it.
Of my family, I suppose.
And what will they advise their daughter to do?
Against being with me, or at least keep a certain distance from my family, even if she stays with me.
No, but you can't.
Come on, man.
You're from Greece.
You think families can keep a distance from each other?
Don't try that with me.
My wife's Greek.
Nice try.
Okay?
So, if this was my daughter, I would say, okay, well that's very disturbing, and you should really have an honest conversation, and maybe I'll do that as well, but we should really have, because we need to figure out, was this just a one-time very odd mistake that's been disavowed, or is this something they still think is good?
Because here's the thing, right?
I would say to my daughter, I'd say, look, you're an attractive young woman, you can have your pick of guys.
Now, in my view, it's important to pick a guy with a good family.
Because there's genes in there, there's culture, there's history, but most importantly really, it becomes a lot more fun to be a mother when you have grandparents around.
Yes.
Because the grandparents can give you knowledge, and they can give you wisdom, and they can give you help.
Yes.
Right?
Parenting is a very big task, and it's kind of scary.
And if you have people around who are experienced, whose values match yours, then you can be very comfortable and happy having the grandparents around.
But if the family's values don't match, and if they are like, don't talk to your kids, let them figure it all out, don't parent them, and then with the inevitable results of your bad parenting show up, buy them a whore...
Well, that's not going to be good to have around your children, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, you're right.
So, you know, he seems like a nice guy and, you know, but you're marrying into a family.
And if the family's values don't match your values, then you're going to have a very difficult time as a mother because the grandparents are going to want to come over a lot.
And they're going to be saying to the kids things that you completely disagree with.
They're gonna have a whole approach to relationships and parenting that is the exact opposite of yours and it's gonna cause a lot of problems.
Yeah.
So is it still a mystery why you're not dating?
Okay, let me try.
You don't want a girl who accepts your family.
But you can't get a girl Who would have any issues with your family, because you still want to defend your family, and love, and no problems, and they're great, and I would die for them.
It's like, okay, well, well then you have to date a girl who's comfortable with your family.
But you don't want a girl who's comfortable with your family, because that means they're kind of messed up.
So you're in an impossible situation.
So you might as well fire up the Instagram and grab the Vaseline.
No, seriously, I mean, what else could you do?
Well, in the moment, right now, after this, what I am thinking about is I would try and start to improve my relationship with my family.
Okay.
Okay, yeah, I'm always a big fan of that.
Even if it does not go well.
I mean, you've had 20 years to try, but maybe 21 will do it.
I will do better on my end.
Okay.
Now, you still can't undo the fact that your father wanted to buy you a whore when you turned 18.
I cannot undo that.
Yeah.
Like, that's a fact, right?
And so, you know, we need to... And also, you can't undo the fact that they barely parented you in terms of giving you values and helping you and raising you and so on, right?
None of this can be undone.
Because you're an adult now.
You've been an adult for half a decade.
Right?
So, you can say, I want to improve things.
But you're trying to improve your relationship with your parents when their parenting job is long done.
It's like giving a performance review to an employee you fired five years ago.
And saying, well, you know, I did fire you five years ago, but I really want to improve our working relationship.
And it's like, what?
I don't work for you anymore.
Why are you calling me?
What are you doing?
Like the job of parenting ended five years ago, for the most part.
I understand, yes.
Right now there's still some material support, of course, because I'm still a student, but yeah, yeah, yeah.
I understand what you mean.
Oh, so they're giving you some money?
Yeah, I still live with them.
You still live with them and they're giving you some money?
Okay, well, you might want to wait until after school is done.
When are you done school?
In three years.
I've done some things in the past.
Yeah.
So two years, I was a civil engineering.
I decided to switch a major and I went to military school.
I dropped out.
So then right now I'm at my third option, which is a production and management engineering in my hometown.
And I've also done my military service for a year.
So, three years were wasted.
Well, didn't you have to do your military services that required three years?
Yeah, that was not a waste, technically speaking.
Yeah, but I'm three years behind my peers, basically.
Well, no, because your peers had to do military services, right?
Most of them do it after school.
Okay, got it.
Got it.
Yeah, I mean, you might want to, I mean, if you really need your parents' support and income at the moment, then it might not be the best time to try and radically rewrite the relationship.
Yeah, I understand that.
But if you understand that you've been listening to philosophy for a long time, and that has a big effect on your heart, your mind, and your soul, and there's this desert you have to cross to get out of the bad and into the good, right?
Nobody wants to cross the desert, I understand that.
And the desert is, I can't achieve the good yet, but I don't want the bad.
And who are you going to date?
Are you going to date someone who thinks your parents are great and agrees with you on how loving and kind and wonderful they are?
Well, it means that they can't see some particular problems, which is alarming.
On the other hand, if you try to date somebody who's happy, moral, confident, and honest, then they're gonna say, no, there's something wrong with your family, man.
Yeah.
And I will tell you that.
So you can't get the girl you want because you're still wedded to the family who didn't help you.
Yes.
And that's, I mean, that's the price, right?
So, I just don't want you to feel like it's a mystery.
Yeah, yeah, certainly.
If you choose to stay, if you choose to love a dysfunctional family, you can't get a quality woman.
Because she's going to see that, and she's going to say, well, no, that's not what I want.
Yeah.
I don't want a trauma-bonded Stockholm Syndrome person who's going to have people I really disagree with around my kids.
So, I'm not telling you what to do or not to do, I just want to take the weirdness out of it for you.
Just so, like, yeah, this makes sense, right?
Yeah, thank you.
It does.
Good.
I'm thinking now.
Yeah, I will tell you that in the simulations I run in my mind of where I have a girlfriend and she does meet my family, she never gets along with my parents.
Well, if she does get along with your parents, Then you have a future just like your child, which she probably don't want.
And if she doesn't get along with your parents, then you go through a bit of a crisis, right?
Because you want the girl and she's judging your parents and this causes a short circuit, right?
That you can't process.
So, I mean, I don't know, you could say there's nothing wrong with you, but that's what I mean when you said, well, it's insecurity, it's like, I don't know, I mean, generally we don't achieve things because they're impossible to achieve.
They're impossible, right?
Why would you try?
I wouldn't try for something that's impossible.
I'm not going to work out how to jump to the top of a tall tree unaided, because it's impossible.
So, if dating is impossible for you, then you don't date.
I wouldn't.
Yeah.
I'm trying to process all of this right now.
I'm trying to process this.
I think that's most of what I wanted to get across.
Is there anything you wanted to mention at the end here?
Worth noting, my sister is fine in her dating life.
She does not have these problems.
No, she's a year younger than me.
She's in a relationship.
Is she married?
Multiple relationships.
That's a good question.
Excellent.
And what do her boyfriends think of your family?
Maybe I should ask that later, but I'm not sure what answer they would give.
Yeah.
Yes.
Well, they've met your parents, right?
They've met you, right?
Yeah.
They're still dating her, right?
So they've got no problem?
Yeah, I suppose so.
So they're fine with your family?
Yeah.
Now, that doesn't mean she has no problem, it just means she has different problems.
I was able to communicate better with my parents, especially my mother, but she was always able to talk more freely about your feelings.
That was never the case with me.
Yeah.
Mm.
Well, it's the parent's job to make the child comfortable.
It's not your job to be comfortable, it's the parent's job to make the child comfortable.
Yeah, I understand.
If you still are uncomfortable talking about things with your parents, that's still on them.
No, that was it.
I think I'm good with this and I will try to process this and learn from it.
Alright, is there anything else you wanted to mention?
Thank you.
And listen, I sympathize, I really do, and I appreciate the call.
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