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June 28, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:54:49

My Wife Is LEAVING TODAY! Freedomain Call In

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	Okay, it was, um, uh, I need some marriage advice.
	He said, uh, we spoke back in November when my marriage was on the verge of collapse, and I need some follow-up advice.
	For the last six months, I've been trying to hold myself to higher accountability, stop blaming, be more patient, and just overall take the lead as the man of the household.
	Things have improved, but my wife and I still have had some significant arguments between then and now.
	Things culminated when her Grandfather passed away.
	We attended his funeral last week.
	We got into a big fight in front of our kids and it went downhill from there.
	This was on Mother's Day, the 12th.
	I don't want to lose her or the family, but I fear that she's on the verge of collapse and our kids are having a mental health crisis.
	I need your assistance as to how to save this because I'm at a total loss.
	Well, okay.
	Well, um, do you want to remind me what we talked about last time?
	Hmm.
	Let's see.
	Okay.
	So it was back in November.
	Um, oh gosh.
	Uh, I'm going to call this performance anxiety.
	I'm trying to remember, uh, the exact.
	No, it's, it's totally fine.
	It's totally fine.
	If you don't remember, it's just six months ago.
	And of course I do hundreds of these calls, so that's totally fine.
	Uh, we can just pick it up, uh, from what happened at the funeral.
	Sure.
	Um, well I can, I can give a, like a broad, uh, paintbrush, um, Uh, the bottom line was, um, we were having some, my wife and I were having some significant arguments, uh, a lot of back and forth.
	And, uh, um, I did a lot of blaming the mother of my children and not taking accountability for my own actions.
	So I would like hold her to a high standard.
	Or I would put on a face, or I would act a certain way in front of other people, but then when I was with her... I'm sorry, this is the part where I ask you for facts, not opinions, because you're giving me descriptions.
	I'm older to this, and I do this, and I don't know what any of that means.
	Like, I need the actual facts, if you would be so very kind.
	I just need, just so we can start with the facts, I'd be thrilled beyond words.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	Like for instance, um, if my wife and I would have an argument over something and, uh, like, like a couple of times we would get into an argument, like before church or a social gathering.
	And then, you know, uh, we would arrive at the place and it was immediately like a flick of light switch and, you know, uh, put on this great face and would be Mr. Nice guy.
	And like nothing had ever happened.
	So it was like, I could, um, Put on this great face for everybody else, but when it came to arguing or trying to deal with things of my wife, like she would get the absolute worst of me.
	Um, and so it's like, why couldn't I, well, you know, if I can flip my switch for these people who I don't even really know and who are like maybe distant friends, why can't my wife get the absolute best of me?
	Especially since she's the mother of my children.
	I mean, she's just completely going to hate you for being mean, cruel, and vicious to her, and then turning your sunny side on when there are strangers around.
	You're treating the mother of your children worse than complete strangers, right?
	I mean, you know, I'm sure maybe she does that with you as well, but you know, she's just going to hate you for that, right?
	Because it's fake, right?
	Then you're angry it's fake.
	Right, right.
	It's like, you know, when you have a kid and they pretend to have a stomachache to stay home from school, and then they stay home from school and they suddenly magically get better, like, you just, you've been played, right?
	Right.
	Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
	Let me see, it'll probably all, like, come back to me, but I would also, Blame her well like so we would get into an argument over something and she would say well you did this and then I would blame then I would turn around say well you did this too and you never take responsibility but then I wouldn't take responsibility myself.
	So it was like, I would get mad at her for not taking responsibility to myself.
	Come on, man.
	This, this is relationship 101.
	You don't do the, you always and never stuff.
	Right.
	Right.
	Because it's so petty.
	It's so easy to disprove and you're lying because it's never the case that she always or never, like you're just putting yourself from a negotiating standpoint, you're just putting yourself in a ridiculously weak and vulnerable position.
	Right.
	Well, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So give me, what was the, what were the issues?
	What were the surface issues that you were fighting about at the funeral?
	Like, what were you fighting about?
	What was the conversation?
	Give me a sample.
	Okay.
	So, um, so my, my wife's grandfather passed away like two weeks ago.
	We went to the funeral last weekend.
	Try to be supportive.
	Try to be, you know, loving and caring.
	For God's sakes, man.
	Try to be supportive.
	I don't know what any of that means.
	This is just a narrative.
	I tried to... No, no, no.
	What did you fight about?
	What were the words?
	What were you fighting about at the surface level?
	What provoked the conflict and what was actually said?
	And what were you fighting about at the surface level, at the language level?
	Like if I was reading a transcript of your fight, what would I read?
	Okay.
	So we were driving back from the funeral.
	We were in the car and it's like a seven hour drive from where we were coming from and coming through New York city, really bad traffic.
	And my wife's like, Hey, uh, it's gonna be really bad.
	It's gonna be really stressful.
	And we need to, you know, stay calm.
	I need you guys to like, stop jumping out of the back seats.
	So the kids, you know, like 15 minutes in, they start like getting up out of the seats.
	They start like moving around.
	We're driving a van.
	I'm sorry.
	How old are the kids?
	So, uh, 13, 10 and almost five.
	So are you expecting a four-year-old to sit quietly for seven hours straight?
	I'm not quite sure.
	I understand.
	No, no, no.
	Like totally understand it.
	But they, they were kind of like, you know, rambunctious up to New York city and like the traffic, there's really bad.
	And we just said, Hey, look, now we need you guys to kind of focus, um, so that we can get through there.
	But that's, that, that's what my wife said.
	Um, so was it because the traffic was dangerous?
	I'm like, isn't normally, isn't bad traffic, really slow traffic.
	How does it, how does it endanger?
	Um, well, yeah, it's, I think it was really just asking the kids not to like, cause they'll jump or not.
	They won't jump.
	They'll, they'll just be really loud.
	They'll like scream or, you know, cause they're just messing around.
	Right.
	It's just, it's just kids.
	But you know, when you're like trying to dodge other cars and all of a sudden, like you hear like one of your kids like screaming.
	Like a blood curdling scream, but they're playing around in the backseat.
	It can be a little distracting and nerve wracking.
	What is the age of the kid who screams?
	13.
	Why is your 13 or 14 year old screaming in a car?
	I'm not quite sure I understand that.
	They're just messing around.
	No, I understand that.
	But I mean, isn't there kind of an agreement that screaming can get the family killed?
	Yes, we have explained that to them.
	Okay, so you've got a son who's screaming in the car, which is very dangerous, right?
	Because you can't hear the traffic, you can't hear a horn, right?
	Right.
	And it makes you panic, right?
	Because you think it's starting, so you lose your concentration.
	Okay, I understand that.
	So, have you had the conversation saying, like, that's the deal, you can't do it?
	And has the child agreed?
	Yes, that has happened, and it still happens.
	So then the child hasn't agreed?
	Right.
	Okay, so a fourteen-year-old, thirteen or fourteen-year-old, should be able to sit in a car without screaming?
	Right.
	So, is it the case that your eldest child, it's a boy, right?
	Uh, well, we've got a 15 year old.
	She wasn't there with us, but it was the 13 year old.
	Okay.
	13 year old.
	And that's a boy, right?
	Yeah.
	Uh, it's a girl.
	Oh, it's a girl.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So the 13 year old girl is still screaming in the car, even though she knows it's startling and dangerous.
	Right.
	Right.
	And then she was getting up and like dancing.
	Cause we had one of the seats down and they were like, Hey, like stop doing it.
	My, my, my wife yelled at her.
	Well, hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Let's just back up a step.
	So, the girl, has she agreed to not scream in the car because it's dangerous?
	Yes.
	So why doesn't she, hang on, hang on, so why doesn't she respect her agreements?
	Now, I mean, kids can forget, right?
	And then you say, no, no, no, remember, we don't scream in the car because it's dangerous.
	And she's like, okay, sorry, sorry, whatever, right?
	Does she say she's not going to scream in the car and then what's her story when she screams in the car and you say, no, no, no, hang on.
	We, we talked about this.
	You can't scream in the car.
	It's dangerous.
	Right.
	So what does she say when you remind her?
	Okay.
	Hey, I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	She'll say that she's sorry or she'll say, okay, fine.
	I won't do it again.
	And then, you know, a while will go, but the ball kind of, and I'm just using the proverbial ball, like, you know, it'd be my son who's like rambunctious for a little while, and then the other two are kind of calmed down, and then my daughter will be kind of wild, and the other two are calm, and then, you know, it just kind of goes in cycles sometimes.
	Most of the time, they're pretty good, but, you know, in seven hours, there's gonna be some head bumping.
	Okay, okay, I get it.
	Now, why...
	This is just questions.
	I'm sure there are great answers, so none of this is criticism.
	Why were the kids coming to the funeral?
	I wanted to go for emotional support for my wife because I did not go to her grandmother who passed away the previous year.
	So I said, I want to go to this one.
	I wanted to pay my respects and be there for her because I knew she was going to be a tough time for her.
	I wanted to go this time.
	And then Uh, our 13 year old wanted to go.
	The 15 year old did not want to.
	She stayed home with, uh, my brother-in-law and, and he took care of her.
	We have a good relationship.
	It's fine there.
	Uh, then obviously the, the five year old, uh, couldn't go.
	And then our 10 year old was like, well, I want to go with you guys too.
	He wanted to go.
	And so we were like, okay, well, sorry.
	You're coming back from the funeral, right?
	Is that the next day or the same day of the funeral?
	So we left on a.
	We left on a Thursday.
	The funeral was on, uh, or the wake was on a Friday and then the burial was on a Saturday and we were driving back Saturday.
	So, you know, emotional events, Friday and Saturday driving back immediately after the internment on the road in New York city, three in the afternoon after grandpa's just been buried.
	Okay.
	So the kids weren't somber, right?
	Like they weren't sad because they just literally came out of a funeral?
	Right.
	Right.
	It had been, you know, four or five hours or so, maybe three or four, something like that.
	Okay.
	So they knew that their mom was sad, right?
	Assumed that your wife was sad about her grandfather dying, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	So, I'm not saying that they have to sit quietly with their hands folded, but wouldn't they have some sensitivity to your wife being sad and also that they were just at a funeral?
	Like, this is a good time to talk about death, it's a good time to talk about mortality, you know, like, I mean, there's a certain amount.
	I'm trying to figure out why they're screaming coming out of a funeral.
	Right, right, right.
	Because they're not taking it seriously.
	Now, I get that they're kids and all of that, so there's probably a certain amount that they just don't particularly process very well.
	But I guess I'm just curious why the kids would come to a funeral if they don't take it particularly seriously.
	And that's not a criticism, I'm just sort of pointing it out.
	Right.
	I don't think that the mourning aspect was necessarily stressed.
	We talked about, you know, going to the wake and the service.
	And then the internment, and then I think it's kind of like, you know, when you come home from church on Sunday, you toss your clothes off and it's like, oh, now I can send it, you know, I can relax.
	Okay, well, the funeral's over.
	So now it's alright, back in the car and, you know, onto the next thing.
	And was your wife, sorry to interrupt, was your wife close to her father, to her grandfather?
	Yeah, relatively, relatively.
	Okay.
	So she was sad, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So she was sad.
	And did you explain what the funeral meant and the fact that mom would be sad and, and all of that?
	Yeah, we, we did.
	And we explained to them, Hey, look, you know, people are going to be crying and that's okay to cry.
	You know, and sometimes people don't cry at the funeral.
	It's, it's times afterwards.
	And so we tried to kind of walk them through like maybe some of the emotions that they might be feeling.
	Um, and you know, we, we tried doing like, I think, you know, preparing them for it.
	And I think it went pretty well in terms of their respects at the funeral and afterwards.
	So they didn't scream and act up at the funeral, but just in the car on the way home.
	Um, yeah.
	I mean, there was a little acting up on the way there, but it wasn't so bad.
	Not at the funeral.
	Right, no, not at the funeral.
	Now, caveat, between after the service in the afternoon, we got done at like noon, we went back to this family restaurant, whole bunch of family there, like a hundred some odd people, all hanging out, people having drinks, and we went back to Uh the the grandparents house where they used to live and now it's empty but like all the family members were there and people were hanging out and drinking and and and talking and and it was a lot of.
	You know the family time together so it was loud and rambunctious so if you know if you're talking about well there's kind of a precedent.
	So the kids you know i could see where they might also.
	get confused about the environment, because it's like, okay, very somber.
	Now it's like, hey, everybody's back here at the party, and there's a bunch of people drinking and talking and being loud, and then people staying up late, and then it's, then the next morning, it's Barry and Grandpa, and then we're, you know, we're at the cemetery, and then, all right, now we're off on the road again, so it's like... Okay, but so, but from the sadness of the funeral, you then got in the car and drove, and they weren't acting up at the funeral, right?
	No, they were pretty good, so...
	Well, weren't they perfect?
	I would say they were perfect.
	What they did didn't necessarily cause me to be upset or anything like that.
	Right.
	So you see the pattern, right?
	And the pattern is, you behave well until you're with family alone.
	Because that's what you model too, right?
	Right, right, right.
	So they're taking your modeling, which is we have to behave properly and well when in the presence of other people, but it turns into Lord of the Flies when the family's alone, right?
	Yeah, yeah, that is, I would say that's true.
	The typical mask that you see a lot of people do.
	Well, you know, I mean, you can put it on a lot of people, but we're not talking about a lot of people.
	A lot of people aren't calling me.
	You're calling me, right?
	Right, right, right.
	I guess I've just got to say, like, you know, you see, like, I guess I was just trying to draw the comparison that, you know, Hey, I'm not so different from those people who, you know, they have all the nice fancy photos on, on Facebook and then behind the scenes.
	what other people do.
	Right, right, right.
	No, I cheated on my wife, but then so did Brad Pitt or whoever, right?
	It's like, well, yeah, but we're not talking about that, right?
	I guess I was just trying to draw the good comparison that, you know, hey,
	I'm not so different from those people who, you know, they have all the
	nice fancy photos on Facebook and then behind the scenes.
	Yeah, they get to know.
	Right, right.
	But you don't want to get divorced, right?
	No.
	Okay, so you don't want to get divorced, so let's not talk about how similar you are to people who end up getting divorced.
	Right.
	Because then there's no point having the conversation, you might as well go get divorced, right?
	Yeah, right, right.
	Okay, so let's not blend it in with others.
	I understand the impulse, but let's not blend it in with others.
	Okay.
	Now, was it you driving or your wife?
	My wife was driving.
	And she was upset, right?
	Yep, she was upset.
	So given that your wife, and again, just curious, no criticism, given that your wife had just buried her grandfather, who she was quite close to, why would she be driving?
	Wouldn't she be a little upset?
	Um, I had driven to the, the, the internment and then we got to, we like did a bathroom stop, like five minutes.
	And then she was like, no, I'm going to drive.
	And I was like, I was like, no, no, I'm going to drive.
	Okay.
	That's what you want to do.
	Um, so I let her, uh, do that.
	I think because.
	Usually sometimes what happens is I, I deal with the kids and she'll, uh, she'll drive.
	And I think she, I think that was, she was trying to like occupy her mind.
	I could be wrong.
	Oh, was she trying to distract herself from her sadness?
	I, I, I, I think so.
	Yeah.
	But why is that?
	That's not teaching good emotional habits to your children, is it?
	If you feel sad, distract yourself with New York traffic.
	Right.
	Yeah, exactly.
	But, uh, um, I, well, I, I know also she, she kind of didn't want to bring, uh, the kids along and I know my wife's going to listen to this.
	And so please, uh, I, I know I'm probably butchering some of it somewhere, but, uh, she wanted to originally just go up her and our 13 year old and just those two.
	And I said, you know, I really want to go there.
	I really want to be, and I want to be able to support you and be loving and caring.
	And she was kind of reluctant because she's like, I don't want to play babysitter with the four year old while I'm trying to like mourn.
	And I'm like, all right, Hey, I'm going to try to help with that and try to distract.
	And I, and I, I, I tried to, um, and, uh, but I think there was still like some stress from, from having to deal with the kids, even in the, Oh, that's right.
	The, um, uh, yeah, we, we shared an Airbnb with her sister.
	And that whole family was just... that's a whole other call-in show just on them.
	So there was tension there.
	Yeah.
	So what's your wife's right to not want particularly the four-year-old alone?
	I mean, fourteen hours in a car is pretty tough for a four-year-old, and, you know, they don't really get the funeral death thing, and they certainly wouldn't have much history with the relationship, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, I guess what I wanted to do was, like, hey, despite Yeah, I wanted to show family support.
	I wanted to be a loving husband.
	I wanted to be there.
	And I knew like the daughter and my son were going to be like a little much, but I was like, Hey, look, let me like kind of help manage them.
	But sorry.
	I know you mentioned this earlier.
	Just remind me.
	Why would the youngest kids come along?
	Um, uh, they, they wanted to go.
	We didn't have anybody else who could watch them.
	Well, sorry.
	It wasn't your brother-in-law.
	Did I get that right?
	Yeah, he, but he, he like.
	Uh, and he's 30-something, but I wouldn't really leave my 10-year-old and our almost 5-year-old there with him.
	Not that there's anything wrong, but I just didn't want to... He was already kind of like...
	Uh, like we were already kind of burdening him to come up to our house cause we have like chickens and stuff.
	And we're like, Hey, can you watch them?
	And then also, can you take our other daughter?
	So it was like, he had to like change a whole bunch of plans.
	I didn't want to burden him.
	I'm sorry.
	I thought, I thought you were big into family support.
	What's right.
	It's not a burden to spend time with his nieces and nephews.
	Is it?
	Yeah.
	Uh, no.
	And no, he, he, he does enjoy them, but, uh, I guess I feel like it would have It might have overwhelmed him or something.
	And is there nobody else, like no friends, family, friends, like, like other people with kids that you know, or any, I guess a lot of the extended family was at least on your side or like, no, there's nobody else you could leave your kids with?
	Yeah.
	We probably could have.
	If I had planned a little better, I probably could have found some other people, but I guess I'd kind of acquiesced to, yeah, okay, let's bring them, and we'll make it work, and I'll shoulder the burden of watching the kids so that you can mourn, and then I can also be there and be your supportive husband.
	Right.
	I'm not sure how supportive you can be when you're wrangling the kids, but okay.
	So you're driving in New York and, um, uh, what, uh, what point in the seven hours, like three hours, five hours, where are you in the seven hour drive?
	We're like, uh, I guess maybe three hours in the traffic was really getting into it.
	No.
	Okay.
	So the, the, the trip got off to a bad start because we were supposed to leave at like 12 and we didn't get up there until seven 30.
	And like, we had stopped a couple of times, like when we were, you were seven and a half hours late to leave.
	No, no, we were supposed to leave at 12 and it normally takes like six, six and a half hours.
	And we didn't get up there till like seven 30, uh, eight or eight.
	So we're, so like eight, eight.
	So it took like eight hours.
	Oh, you only got home at eight.
	Oh, whatever.
	Sorry.
	It was, it was traffic both ways to like, to get like to drive up.
	To the funeral, like, to Massachusetts, and then to drive home.
	Okay, no, sorry, I understand that you had to drive both ways.
	I can follow that.
	So did you leave late or was it just bad traffic?
	Um, we had left a little later.
	I wanted to leave at, like, 12.
	She wanted to leave at, like, 11.30, 11.45.
	And I was like, no, let's just spend a little bit longer.
	We'll play with, you know, my, my daughter wanted to ride the bike and whatever.
	So we got off late and that was my fault.
	So like right off the bat, we left like maybe 30 minutes later than we, she wanted to.
	And so like most of the drive up there, she was very upset because we got caught in a little bit of traffic when I don't know, was it, we, we, we got set back, like, I don't know, maybe like an hour or so.
	Um, and so we like kind of got caught up in that.
	And so then that was like, you know, if we just left when I wanted to, I don't know why I let you tell me this.
	And it's so like, I'm sitting there like.
	I'm like listening to her tell me how I like, you know, kind of like flat tired, everything.
	And I'm like, Hey, I'm really sorry.
	Well, don't worry.
	We're going to make it up.
	Like, you know, like we're going to get there.
	So I'm trying.
	Sorry, you're going to make it up.
	So she's wrong.
	She's saying, she's saying we're going to be delayed because we left later and you're saying, no, we're not going to be delayed.
	You're wrong.
	And it turned out she was right.
	Is that, is that, do I understand that right?
	Well, well, no, I didn't say we were going to be late.
	Maybe you said we're going to make it up.
	Well, I guess I don't like, like, it's just a little, I tried to reach her.
	Like, Hey, look, it's just a little bit of traffic.
	I know it's really annoying, but like, Hey, we're, we're going to get through it.
	And we're still going to make it up there in good time.
	Like, sorry, make it up there.
	I'll make it back home.
	Like, like make it up to Massachusetts and that's back home.
	Right.
	Uh, no, we're, we're from further South.
	Okay, sorry, are we talking about the way out or the way back?
	Both of the rides there... No, no, this one!
	My God, man!
	You left at noon, you didn't get home till eight.
	Is that the way out or the way back?
	I guess the way back, because home, right?
	That was... No, that was the way to the funeral in Massachusetts, when we left... Okay, so the way to the funeral, you were supposed to leave at noon, you left later, and you got caught in traffic.
	We were supposed to leave at noon, she wanted to leave at 11.30, I said, let's leave No, no, no, we'll be fine.
	So you left late, you left later and it was bad traffic.
	And is that the case on the way home or?
	Um, we, we made like a couple of pit stops and that kind of pushed things back.
	Well, no, you have to make pit stops.
	Can't put a four year old in the car for seven hours straight.
	They'll get deep vein thrombosis or something.
	I'm kidding.
	Right.
	But, but okay.
	So, so on the way back you didn't leave late.
	On the way back, we left at an alright time, but traffic kept piling up.
	Okay, got it.
	So traffic was bad.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so was your wife right about the kids coming and you coming?
	Like it was not a good idea?
	Yeah, I would say in the end, yeah, it wound up being disastrous for her.
	Okay, well, I mean, so she was right about that, right?
	So you are in the unenviable position of being a husband who's completely in the wrong and has kind of messed up a funeral emotion for his wife, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	And that, you know, that happens, right?
	We certainly make recommendations that turn out to be completely wrong.
	So that happens in, in every relationship.
	So, okay.
	So, so you're driving back and New York is bad.
	You're a couple of hours into the drive.
	You've got a long way to go.
	And your kid is, your 13 year old daughter is, is screaming and intermittently or whatever.
	Right.
	And what happens with your wife?
	She's driving and what happens with her?
	She got mad and yelled at her.
	to stop screaming and there had already been like some yelling before um and i've tried to get i've been trying to work on the peaceful parenting thing by not yelling and say like hey come on guys let's bring it down like you can't do this in the car and so then like she like screamed stop screaming right which is like you're like why are you guys screaming why are you guys yelling like you know but like it's like screaming it's like Well, hey, like in my mind, I'm thinking, well, you're yelling, like, why are you yelling?
	Right.
	And it's like, well, Hey, we got to like change the tone.
	And I'm thinking, and so I'm like, Hey, you know, maybe we bring it down a little bit.
	She remembers it as I was like, like very rude to her or yelled at her about it.
	It was like scolded her.
	And so instead of like defending her in front of the kids and saying, yeah, guys stop yelling.
	I went after her and.
	Um, it went downhill from there.
	So instead of defending my wife, I, uh, told her that she shouldn't be raising, cause it was already going to make it more chaotic than it already was.
	What would that mean to defend your wife?
	Would that mean to say it's okay to scream at your kids that they should stop screaming?
	Uh, it would be me not quote unquote, you know, correcting or telling her that she can't say that now.
	If there's a part of the phone call where she's going to say, I said everything was wrong.
	And she's like, listening back to this thing, like that's how I'm remembering it.
	So I'm not trying to spin it or tell a lie, but sorry.
	We're in the car.
	So if she's, if she's here, what does she mean by supporting her?
	Does that mean not correcting her in front of the kids?
	Bingo.
	But she's correcting the kids in front of each other.
	She's correcting the older kid in front of the younger kids.
	So does that mean nobody in the family can correct anybody else in front of anybody else?
	Cause that's not what she's doing.
	Right.
	But I think she thinks of it as, is, uh, you know, we're unified and if we have something to dissent about, then we go off in private and we discuss it in private.
	But she's not doing, she's not doing that with her daughter.
	She's not taking the door.
	She's not saying, uh, okay, let's pull the car over at the next coffee shop.
	I'm going to go and have a chat.
	Like you guys go get a coffee.
	I want to chat with my daughter in private.
	So.
	Right.
	She's not saying that it's good to talk about people you have big issues with in private because she's correcting her daughter.
	In front of everyone else.
	Right.
	Which can be considered a little humiliating.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's the rule.
	If you want to rule, then you've got to model the rule.
	Right.
	And of course, if you have a rule called don't scream, then don't scream.
	And if you have a rule called don't correct people in front of others, then you shouldn't do that with your kids either.
	Right.
	Cause that's the rule that they'll internalize.
	Right.
	Well, I think we thought that.
	Cause I was on the same page as her for, for, for the most part.
	Um, that like, Hey, you know, if there's like something big, like, Hey, we should, uh, you know, probably, uh, talk about it kind of behind the scenes, but like there, there are times when it's like, Hey, well, you know, if I was like throttling our son or doing something that was like really bad, I wouldn't wait for you to like, you know, I beat him up.
	Not that I've ever done that.
	And then, yeah.
	And then be like, after like, well, you know, I really didn't think you should have done that, but I didn't want to, you know.
	Correct you in front of the blue, the kid turning blue.
	All right.
	Now do you have, do you have a rule as a whole?
	Is she on board with the peaceful parenting stuff?
	Like don't yell at your kids.
	Um.
	My understanding of where, like, I think she's, what do you mean?
	Have you had the conversation with her?
	I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have, right?
	I'm just curious.
	Have you had the conversation with her saying we shouldn't yell at the kids?
	Yes.
	And has she agreed to that or not?
	She thinks that, uh, okay, they already don't listen to me anyway.
	And if you take away the tools that I'm already using, then they really won't listen to me.
	So if I can't even get them to listen to me.
	By not yelling at them and they certainly won't listen to it if i was so sorry sorry her argument is i'm yelling at
	them they don't listen so i really shouldn't change anything i did.
	I want to put words in your mouth but i think it's not but that's the logical consequence right i'm doing this thing
	which isn't working how dare you ask me to change what's not working.
	Yeah, yes.
	Okay, so she is not on board with, don't yell at the kids, right?
	She says it's legitimate and right and good parenting to yell at, to scream, I guess you said scream, right?
	To scream or yell at the kids, right?
	I think she thinks that there are certain times when it's okay to yell at.
	No, no, no, hey, it's good parenting.
	It's the only way they'll listen, right?
	Right, because if you speak softly, then they won't want to listen to you.
	Okay, so for her, it's good parenting to scream at the kids, at times.
	Yes, there are times when it's necessary.
	No, no, not necessary.
	Good.
	Right.
	Right, I mean, it's necessary to get a cavity filled, but it's not good to have a cavity to get filled, right?
	But she thinks it's good, like, because it's the only way they'll listen, and obviously kids have to listen, right?
	I think she would like to not have to do that, but I think she feels the need like she asked.
	She would like to not have to do that.
	I don't understand what that means, but she did it.
	I mean, if, you know, if some guy has an affair and his wife and he said, well, I'd really like to not have to do that.
	But you did it right.
	I think she would like to not have to yell, but I think that she feels as though maybe she's tried that in the past and it didn't work.
	So she resorted back to.
	Alright, have you seen that?
	That she's tried consistently for a while to not yell at her kids, and it doesn't work.
	I mean, she's had a program said, I'm not going to yell at the kids, I'm going to give it six months or whatever, and then she didn't yell at the kids consistently, and it never worked, and so now she's back to yelling?
	Is that, because I don't believe that.
	I mean, but is that the theory?
	No, she, uh, she has not tried that.
	And, uh, truth be told, like I have not tried that.
	I just tried the principle of like trying to yell the least amount as possible.
	Cause I already know that I'm scared.
	I'm sorry.
	I'm sorry.
	So you're into peaceful parenting as well, but you still yell at your kids.
	I know that it's wrong and I should not do it.
	And so I try not to like, I try to restrain myself.
	I guess what I'm saying is like, you and your wife.
	fail to restrain your hang on you and your wife.
	Okay.
	Like, sorry, don't be laughing.
	Serious stuff, but it's kind of funny in a way like dark comedy.
	So you and your wife, and I don't see this with any hostility or anything.
	I'm just sort of pointing out the facts.
	Right.
	So you and your wife fail to restrain yourself and raise your voice.
	And you get mad at your 13 year old who fails to restrain herself and raises her voice.
	And like, I see the irony in that.
	Like, like I see like, right.
	Right.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Like I like I'll see like it's like sometimes I'll hear so like I don't know why the kids are acting like this
	I'm like, I can point exactly where this, like, why is our son punched self in the head and like super angry?
	Like all the time.
	Oh, I don't know.
	Like that came from me years ago from like all this bad stuff that I did.
	Like, or like, why is our daughter acting like that?
	Like, Hey, have you not, like you've done these certain things before?
	Like, I see.
	Absolutely.
	Like where this stuff comes from.
	Your wife says, how dare you lose control to raise your voice while losing control and raising her voice.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	You at 13 should have all the self-restraint that me at 35 just doesn't have, or 40 or whatever, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	All right.
	And so I realized that as the head of the household, I had absolutely completely failed in this.
	Well, I don't know, completely failed.
	I guess my curiosity is, why do you have permission to intimidate your children, to yell at your children?
	What's the story with that?
	I mean, no, because you do it, right?
	So there has to be some Reason behind why, why it's okay to do like, I mean, you don't rob banks, right?
	You don't break into cars.
	You don't assault people for their wallets.
	Cause you're like, absolutely won't do that.
	Right.
	So you have on the table, uh, intimidating, like yelling at and intimidating your kids.
	And what's the thinking.
	And again, I know this sounds like all kinds of condemned condemnatory.
	I don't mean that I'm just genuinely curious.
	What you're thinking is that this is behavior that you can do.
	It's not okay.
	Not whatsoever.
	Oh, no, come on, man.
	Work with me.
	I'm asking you the reasons why you think it's okay enough to do.
	Well, you know, like family of origin, childhood.
	No, no, no, that doesn't explain anything, right?
	Because if it was done to you and you know it's bad and painful, you've also had the theory, you've talked to me, I don't know if you've read or heard of any of the peaceful parenting book, but, like, you know, it's not good to do, right?
	So you give yourself permission in some context to do it, and then you give yourself no permission to do it, right?
	Because, if I understand this correctly, You don't yell at your kids, you don't scream at your kids at church or in company or at a funeral or with friends or with family or in a restaurant.
	So they see you continually with perfect self-restraint, right?
	Right.
	And then when you can get away with it and you're alone and you don't have anyone shooting you dirty or shocked looks, you let loose.
	Right.
	So you give yourself permission to do it at times and then you give yourself no permission to do it at times.
	So what's the difference?
	Well, no, that's a description of the results, but what is going on in your mind where, if you're in public, you'd never dream of screaming at your kids, and then when you're in a car or in private, it's fine.
	Or good, I guess.
	I'm trying to maintain an image.
	Don't know.
	These are all guesses.
	It's an emotional thing somewhere in there, right?
	Because you have really different standards When in private than in public, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Now, I mean, some of that is necessary, right?
	I mean, we go to the bathroom in private, not in public, right?
	I mean, some of that, you know, we make out with our wives in private, not at the funeral, right?
	So, I understand appropriate behavior and so on, but as far as the morals go, your kids see you with perfect self-restraint in public, and then you let loose in private, and there's got to be a thought about that.
	So, either if it's a good thing to do, you should do it in public, right?
	Uh, you know, like it's, it's good to feed your children.
	So I'm sure you don't like if your kids are hungry and you're in public, you'll feed them, right?
	So buffet or something, go eat, right?
	It's good to play a game with your kids.
	So if you're in a public situation at a park, you'll play a game, a tag or ball or something like that.
	Right?
	So, so if it's good to yell at your kids, why wouldn't you yell at them?
	All the time.
	Well, in public, or whenever you felt like it, right?
	So, there's something where it's, this is bad, and then this is good.
	And the difference between public and private.
	So, what's that thinking?
	Bad stuff you do away from people, and good stuff you do out in the open.
	Well, I mean, you're just describing the two different behaviors, but the why, right?
	Because if you don't yell at your kids in public, and it's good to yell at your kids, then you're allowing being in public to make you a bad parent, right?
	Because if it's good to yell at your kids, but you don't yell at your kids in public, then you're letting the position of being in public turn you into a bad parent.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Whereas if it's bad to yell at your kids, then you're a better parent in public, but then you turn into not such a better parent in private.
	So you've got two different sets of rules, and they're kind of opposing, depending on public or private, right?
	Right, right, right.
	So I think intellectually, you probably say, it's not great to yell at your kids, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so what's the difference in private?
	Why is it okay in private?
	I assume your wife is the same way.
	She doesn't yell at her kids in public, but yells at them in private.
	Is it something like, well, yelling is discipline, discipline is necessary, but you don't yell in public because it's a private matter and you don't want to humiliate the kids in public, or I don't know, like something like that?
	Yeah, I guess it's probably to embarrass yourself.
	Well, no, you shouldn't be embarrassed by being a good parent, should you?
	Well, if you equate yelling with being a good parent, then... No, but you do.
	Your wife certainly does.
	I mean, and so your wife says, they don't listen to me unless I yell, so I'm going to keep yelling.
	And they have to listen to me, so this is good parenting, right?
	That's her justification.
	I'm curious what yours is.
	I lose my temper.
	Okay.
	Listen, there's times when you, sorry to be annoying.
	There's times when you lose your temper in public too, but you don't yell at them.
	So it's not a matter of losing your temper, right?
	So your wife has a justification.
	They have to listen to me yelling.
	It's the only way they listen.
	What's yours?
	Asserting dominance, I guess, maybe.
	I don't even know if that's necessarily it.
	Well, it can't be really asserting dominance, because if you want to assert dominance with your children, and then you're super nice to them in public, then you're just saying, I'm a bully, kind of bullying in private, and then I'm being bullied in public, right?
	So it doesn't really assert dominance if your kids see you do bad parenting when you're around other people, because then you're just succumbing to peer pressure, which your children won't respect, right?
	Yeah, well, sometimes what they do doesn't necessarily bother me, but I know it will bother my wife, so I'll tell them, like, in her defense, like, hey guys, come on, let's keep it down, but I won't be like, well, you know, your mother, your mom's gonna get really mad.
	I'll just say, hey, you know, I'll try to, like, Hey guys, it's really disruptive.
	Can you, and I'll, I'll kind of take like a more of a like wee tone.
	Okay.
	I've got it.
	So, so then the principle that goes across to your kids is don't do things that are upsetting to your mother, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So do your kids see you do things that are upsetting to your mother or to their mother, sorry, to their mother, to your wife?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So if the rule is don't do things that are upsetting, To your mother, my wife, then if your kids see you do things that are upsetting to their mother, your wife, then that's kind of confusing, right?
	So one of the things that sort of popped into my head is you're saying to the kids, don't do things that are upsetting to your mother.
	Don't yell, scream or whatever, because she's upsetting to your mother.
	But then your wife gets mad at you for correcting her in front of the kids, which clearly is upsetting to her.
	So you're saying to your kids, don't upset your mother while at the same time upsetting your mother.
	Right.
	Upsetting their mother, sorry.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	So let's get back to the rule.
	What is the rule that gives you permission?
	You know, like, I don't imagine there's any circumstances under which you would rob a bank, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So why is not robbing a bank 100% but not yelling at your kids 50-50, depending if you're in public or private, you're upset or like, what's the difference?
	Like, I mean, because your kids see you do all of this stuff, like you pay your taxes, you stop when the cop pulls you over, you don't yell at them in public.
	So you have all these standards and rules that are 100%, right?
	You don't like just occasionally scream at them in public, like you just don't do it at all.
	Right.
	So what's The rule or what's the maybe exception to the rule because I don't know if the rule is yelling at your kids and then you don't do it in public or if the rule is don't yell at your kids but you do it in private.
	I don't know what side of the fence the rule falls on but what gives the permission to you?
	What makes it okay?
	For your wife it's like well they have to listen and they only listen when I yell so I have to yell.
	So what's feet what is it for you?
	Like like when it's okay for me to yell or Well, you give yourself permission to yell at your kids.
	So, when you're in public, the impulse, you're mad at your kids about something, the impulse comes out to yell at your kids, and then you don't succumb to that impulse, right?
	I will correct them.
	I will, like, pull them aside.
	No, no, no, I get that, but they're yelling.
	So you get mad at your kids, you want to yell at them, or if you were in private, you would yell at them, but because you're in public, you don't yell at them, right?
	I don't know that I really, like, yell like my wife does.
	I will raise my voice, but I won't, like, get over here right now!
	Like, I don't do anything, like, I don't, like...
	Yeah, so I'll like, like, hey guys, you were supposed to do blah, but you did blah.
	And so, yeah, you know, like, I'll, like, take a stern tone, but... Okay, I mean, a stern tone is fine.
	I mean, that's part of parenting, right?
	Yeah, like, I'll, like, I'll, I'll... Yeah, like, but I, I will not, I... I don't know that I, like, like, scream and get in their faces.
	Like that's fine.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's so, so if it's just a stern tone, then okay.
	That's.
	That's fine.
	But then the, then the challenge is that you and your wife have very different parenting styles, right?
	Because you're a stern tone and she's like yelling or screaming.
	Right.
	I mean, I'm not running all the time, of course.
	Right.
	But even if it's occasion.
	And I can take a stern tone.
	Yeah.
	Like I won't need to yell because my voice is deeper and you know, a little bit, you know, like average builds.
	You know, so, and you know, when you're a kid, everybody's bigger than you.
	So it's like, I don't necessarily like flex, like, you know, like maybe my wife might have to.
	Okay.
	So has your wife noticed that you don't yell, but so then why would she need to yell?
	Um, well, she'll say they won't, they don't even listen to you.
	Oh, so she thinks that your tone doesn't work either.
	Like she says that your tone of the stern voice.
	Well, they're, they're, they're still, they're still doing it and you're not being firm with them.
	And so that's like, I kind of take that as like a, like, you know, and what does she mean by firm with them?
	And I apologize for talking about you yelling at your kids.
	If you just use the stern tone, like I certainly, I misunderstood or got something wrong and that's totally on me.
	So I really do apologize.
	That was unfair to grill you about that when that's not what's happening.
	But what does your wife mean by listening or they don't like, what was the phrase?
	So I won't yell at my kids, but I will.
	Um, I will get angry at them and, uh, I have like kind of intimidated them, like bullied them in, in the past.
	Okay.
	Sorry, I'm a little confused now.
	So what do you mean by bullying?
	Okay.
	So like, um, like my son, he would get really mad and like, he would, he would get upset over something and I would like pick him up and like bring him into another room and be like, Hey man, like I could spank you.
	Like I could spank you, but I'm, I'm not going to, because I'm trying to talk with you and like work things out with you.
	Oh, so you would threaten to hit him?
	Right.
	And then I, I, I was like, I, and so I would maybe do that like maybe twice a year.
	Okay.
	Like where things would get.
	And is this is your, uh, how old is your son?
	Uh, he was 10.
	I would not do this with any of the girls.
	He would be like the only one, but like, but this was like, ah, sexist too.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you would threaten to hit your son.
	Uh, if he didn't do, and can you think of a time or a circumstance where You ended up in making that threat or doing that?
	Right.
	Maybe the last time was like maybe a year ago.
	Okay, but what did he do that you ended up in that situation?
	I couldn't tell you.
	I just can't remember.
	I did spank my one daughter probably five, six years ago.
	Sorry, let's go back to you.
	So we'll get your daughter in a sec, but I just want to understand the sort of aggression that you would display towards your son.
	Could you remember any instance that led up to that or what you were upset about?
	Usually it's, you know, very broadly, like not following directions, which I, myself, am terrible at.
	So, more hypocrisy.
	I mean, we can all empathize with people who don't follow directions, right?
	I mean, I'm the kind of guy, like, I'll assemble something barely looking at the instruction manual and sometimes it works and sometimes it really doesn't.
	So, if you can empathize with a 10-year-old, especially if you don't particularly follow directions, including, you know, the peaceful parenting thing a little, You could empathize with your son for not following directions, right?
	Right.
	So, why the aggression?
	What's going on for you?
	I have full ownership over this, so this is my feelings.
	I'm going to explain it here in just a second.
	Yeah, take your time.
	I don't mean to keep grilling you, so yeah, go ahead.
	I'm explaining the caveat.
	Sometimes my daughters will be like, Uh, you know, you don't discipline your son and you need to do that.
	And, uh, and then like my wife has kind of, you know, said those things like, well, he's just doing it and he's just treating me like this.
	Cause you know, you treat, he says, Oh, you get, yeah, I was, I was suspecting that.
	Right.
	So you get goaded into aggressing against your son by the females.
	That has happened in the past.
	And while that probably still does happen and I have total ownership and then I, No, no.
	I mean, no.
	Total ownership would be, hey, like, I understand that you're frustrated with him, but intimidation is not going to be the answer.
	There have been many times where I've bucked against it, and then many times where I'm like, okay, buddy, hey, you were definitely in the wrong, like, you're in trouble.
	Okay, so what does it mean for a 10-year-old to be in the wrong?
	Like, maybe he would have antagonized his sisters or been rude or mean and done something inconsiderate.
	Um, I surprised that's right.
	Right.
	Well, he was even younger when, when these like things had happened on.
	Oh, so when, when did you sort of the, the threatening to hit the dragon or pull him into a room and threatened to hit him?
	what was that age that that started?
	Six. Six, okay.
	Okay.
	And that's because he was bad and doing something mean or wrong or whatever.
	Right.
	Yeah, probably before then.
	Maybe it's probably like five-ish.
	Yeah, no, there were times when I was rough on him before.
	I'm freaking... I feel like I'm such a... I'm sorry, I didn't catch that.
	Sorry, it's probably been... He was probably like, you know, five-ish.
	Five, six, somewhere around there.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Just thinking back of all the... So, like, all the... Like, I see his anger issues, and I'm like, I'm just shaking my head now, and I see him at ten, and it's like, it's like programmed in him now.
	And, uh, my brother's 46 and has all these anger issues and everything, too, and he got it from From our dad, and now it's like I just see it replicating my... and I'm just... I feel so bad for the... for... because I just completely effed it up.
	Well, not completely.
	Hang on, let's go from one extreme to another.
	It's a complete disaster, right?
	I mean, no, I'm sure you're a pretty good parent, right?
	So let's not, you know, I mean, you haven't sold them into slavery.
	So there's lots of things, you know, beating them senseless every week.
	So, um, and, um, your father was, uh, aggressive in this way as well.
	He was aggressive towards my brother.
	I was the golden child.
	I could think of maybe like one time where maybe or twice where I got yelled at.
	So like, Yeah.
	So I got like special treatment and my brother like got the worst of it.
	Oh gosh.
	And how often would he aggress against your brother?
	They got into it a lot.
	My brother to this day is a jerk.
	Um, but wait, hang on.
	We're not talking about your brother at 46.
	We're talking about your brother at four or six.
	Right.
	So, I mean, she was, uh, I, well, he's five years older than, um, Uh, so, you know, there was a lot of stuff that happened that I wasn't necessarily like aware of, or things that I saw that, you know, uh, but he, he had always told me like how my dad, like, like hit him or stuff.
	And like, he and my dad got into like a couple of fights here and there.
	And then like my... No, no, no.
	He didn't get into a couple of fights with your dad.
	Your dad's in charge of the entire relationship.
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, they're not boxers, right?
	Right.
	Exactly.
	No, they're not.
	Yeah.
	And so he would get it like the slugfest, you know, your dad would assault him or he'd fight back or whatever.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	And how often did you, um, know this was happening or witness it or how often did it happen to your knowledge?
	I don't know.
	Maybe I couldn't put maybe every like few months, six months, something like that as a kid growing up.
	So I mean, maybe more sparse than that.
	I can only think of a handful of times, but it's possible that it happened way more often.
	Do you know when that tapered off?
	Was it like the usual mid-teens?
	No.
	It tapered off, yeah, because then my brother started to get into it when he was in his late teens, early 20s.
	He was still living at home.
	He would get into it with my mom and my dad, and then I fought him, and that was the last time I ever saw him.
	Do that.
	Uh, to my parents.
	Um, Oh, you attacked your brother because he was attacking your parents.
	Is that right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah, exactly.
	So I came to my parents to that, but my, yeah, my brother was like, yeah.
	And even to this day, like, I don't, uh, I stopped talking to him a few months ago, uh, just because he's just, it's so tumultuous, you know, it's a mixed bag.
	You never know what you're going to get when you talk to the guy.
	And what's your relationship like with your parents?
	Um, It's okay.
	It's okay.
	I do care about them, but there's... and I guess I've kind of come to terms with certain things, but like stuff... I think my dad's at the age in his life where he's just trying to like keep things together, and so when he passes on, he wants things to just kind of like be okay, and so he's Just trying to like, keep the peace or like, you know, and, and go out with stuff being okay.
	So it's like, like no real rocking the boats with stuff, but.
	Sorry.
	That's just a bunch of stuff.
	I don't really understand.
	Sorry.
	Cause again, this is all narrative.
	So what's, uh, what happened with your, uh, your brother's life again?
	I'm sorry.
	I know he's not on the call, so we don't have to get into the detail, but sort of big picture stuff.
	Yeah.
	A big picture.
	Um, okay.
	So he had all these behavioral health issues.
	Turns out, late teens, he had a brain tumor.
	We have no idea how much that affected his, you know, ability to reason, negotiate, whatever.
	But he has virtually no friends.
	He has an IT job from home, does help desk stuff online.
	Sorry, I know I said be brief, maybe not that brief.
	So your brother, when did they discover the brain tumor?
	He was, let's see, he was 90.
	He was, he was probably just shy of 20 ish, maybe 18 ish.
	Okay.
	So your parents might've been assaulting him because of behavior that came from a brain tumor.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	I mean, what do you think of that?
	Um, that's like calling a kid lazy because he's going through chemo.
	Right.
	That's the thing is like, we've never known how much, because like he's been on this medicine that's like shrunk it to like non-existent, but he has to continue to take the medicine.
	Um, But we had no idea how long that, uh, and so everyone's tried to give him the benefit of the doubt.
	And no matter how like violent or bad or things have gotten, we've always like, like a cooling off period of a few months.
	And then it's like, okay, don't worry.
	We still love you.
	You know, like we bring them back into all of our lives.
	And then a few months later, everything falls out of like kind of self-sabotaging behavior.
	And then everything falls to pieces and then, Wash, rinse, repeat the cycle.
	Cooling off for a few months.
	Oh, you mean he's violent, is that right?
	Violent and, you know, if you want to talk about verbally abusive, like this guy is the textbook definition of that.
	And did he have to have an operation for his tumor or did they shrink it using radiation or chemo or some other method?
	He's been taking some meds for years that have shrunk it.
	He did not want to have the operation.
	Oh, shrunk the tumor?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	It's still there.
	Is that right?
	We don't know what the size of it is, but I think it's from like what he has told us is that it's under control, whatever that means.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	They have a sort of wait and see approach to it as far as I understand it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Um, and how are your parents when, when you were growing up, how were they with each other?
	Oh, they fought all the time.
	They were an unhappy couple.
	Even, even to this day.
	My dad did not want to be in that relationship.
	And I was like, well, I've just kind of been along for the ride.
	I'm like, well, where were you pop?
	Like what?
	Why didn't you tell me?
	Sorry.
	I didn't quite understand.
	He says he's along for the ride.
	What would you mean with the marriage?
	He didn't say that, but that's in essence, his attitude, right?
	Like my mom wanted all the kids.
	He didn't want to have any kids.
	She did.
	So he gave her the kids.
	You keep her busy.
	Oh, so he appeases the women in his life, like you do?
	Right.
	That's right.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, does he claim to be a victim?
	I wouldn't say that he claims to be a victim.
	Just along for the ride?
	She wanted kids I didn't, so I gave her kids?
	I don't have the life I want because I was appeasing my wife?
	That sounds like a victim to me.
	I could be wrong, of course.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	It's the passive aggressive kind of thing.
	Like, yeah, he, he, he is like an essence of victim, um, without saying he's a victim, you know, like just the, the things that are like, well, I gave up such and such, and I didn't do that on our own, you know?
	And did your, sorry, did your brothers, how was your brother's tumor discovered?
	Just, sorry to jump back for a second.
	He went in for a vision test and he couldn't get into the docs, like, oh, we can't get the vision, right.
	And whatever, uh, this, you know, he kept not focusing or something like that.
	And the, the doc was like, Need a scan, yeah.
	Yeah, and then something after the vision test, he just couldn't get the glass prescription right or something, and then they took him in and they did the scan and that.
	I guess there was something pressing on his nerve, his vision nerves, right?
	Okay.
	Right, right.
	Okay, and has your brother ever done any talk therapy or anything like that?
	Yeah, he has.
	Yep, he continues to see a shrink.
	Ah, okay.
	And it's like he's, he's quote unquote, putting in the work, you know, popular phrase, but he's not dating off.
	He doesn't date or get been married or.
	No, like it, it's just, yeah.
	It's very, just a very sad situation is subjective.
	Yeah.
	No, no social skills whatsoever.
	Just.
	Um, like he flies to Amsterdam.
	Um, did he, did he have social skills when he was younger?
	I know he's older than you.
	I don't know if you remember much of that.
	Yeah.
	Like he had a few friends, but he was all like, he would get into fights with people and it was always, Oh, so-and-so, you know, he'd be a friend with somebody and then, Oh, so-and-so's a jerk.
	I don't like him.
	And so he would just like fall out of friendships with, with people.
	And so, and then, yeah, then, uh, you know, out of high school.
	Like he didn't even attend his own like high school graduation.
	Like he was like, Oh, this is stupid.
	I don't know why, you know, always very bitter.
	Now, how often did you see your parents fighting or not getting along?
	Pretty, pretty often.
	Like, and my mom was very dramatic about stuff.
	Um, yeah, it was very like, how'd him go up and like, like she would leave a phone book open, like, Oh, for attorneys or.
	So she would threaten divorce, like almost like the way you threaten your son.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And, uh, she would, um, I remember one time she was like trying to, she was like writing a story of like all the stuff that she had been through and all the stuff that my dad had put her through.
	And then like, she's like, Oh, all the stuff your dad had put her through.
	So she's also a victim.
	Right.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	Yeah.
	And what, what are her major complaints?
	Like, what does she consider that your dad has put her through?
	well he never helps out, he, you know, that he was lazy.
	He never loved her, which is true.
	He never wore a ring and he never said, I love you.
	I don't think I've ever heard him say that.
	Yeah, but she accepted that, right?
	She chose to date him, to get engaged, to marry, to have kids.
	So she can't blame people for something that you accept, is it?
	I mean, if I accept to work for 10 bucks an hour, I mean, how do I get to blame people for paying 10 bucks an hour?
	It's kind of odd to me.
	Anyway, go on.
	Yeah.
	Um, uh, he had been married before and had a kid and he kept that from her and she didn't find that out until like they were engaged.
	And then, um, he also cheated on her in the eighties.
	Um, and like almost left her, but then didn't leave her.
	Um, so they're codependent and blame each other.
	It's the usual sad story, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Got it.
	Yeah.
	And blame each other.
	Yeah.
	Sorry.
	Go ahead.
	Sorry.
	Go ahead.
	Uh, yeah, yeah.
	Then, uh, um, uh, she chased him around the house with a knife one time.
	I think that was probably the time that she found out that he was cheating.
	Uh, and then she would like allude to that, like numerous times, like, uh, like though, so he wanted to like bury that.
	And so like us older ones didn't, or the younger ones, the knife or the affair.
	He wanted to like bury the affair and like, never talk about it again.
	Like, I guess they moved on past that, but, um, she would like.
	Occasionally, when fights would get really heated, she would be like, oh, you don't want me to tell the kids about so-and-so, do you?
	You know, and then that would just, she would just goad him.
	And how often would they, I mean, I know you said quite often, was it like weekly, daily?
	Probably something monthly, weekly, you know, again, I can't remember, but I just know.
	But the tension is pretty continuous, right?
	Yeah, yeah, exactly.
	I guess that's probably it.
	He would bury himself in solitaire.
	He would go to work, then he would come home, and he would just play solitaire.
	I knew he loved me.
	I knew he cared about me.
	We just didn't... I didn't have a whole lot of memories of stuff that we did together.
	And how did you know that he left you?
	Well, I was the golden child, so I kind of got, like, whatever I want.
	No, no, sorry, hang on.
	Didn't you say that you didn't spend much time with your dad?
	Well, yeah, but I didn't realize that I wanted it at the time.
	And when I got older, he spent time with me.
	Hang on, hang on.
	What do you mean you didn't realize you wanted time with your dad?
	What do you, what are you talking about?
	So like, as a kid, like, um, so I was put on Ritalin because I was, uh, rambunctious and I, that's not an excuse.
	That's just like, you know, like I couldn't concentrate.
	How old were you when you were drugged?
	Seven, eight.
	Okay, so your parents put you on that, right?
	I assume that they're the ones who have to say yes or no, right?
	Yeah, and it's the same thing like my dad.
	My dad was like, well, I didn't think that you should have been put on that anyway, but I didn't really have a choice in that.
	I was like, well, where the hell were you, Pop?
	Sorry, why wouldn't he have a choice?
	Right, exactly.
	This is like kind of more along that theme of like, along for the ride, like, well, I oppose things, but no one really listened to me.
	Oh, yeah.
	And then you marry a woman who doesn't feel the kids listen to her.
	She has no control.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So, so what do you mean when you say that you didn't know that you wanted time with your dad?
	I mean, if you had had time with your dad, that was enjoyable.
	You would, you would do that, right?
	Yeah.
	I guess maybe I thought it was sufficient or I was just getting by doing all right.
	Like I kept myself busy.
	You know, and like, I think I kind of met the Victorian era definition of kids, which is they shouldn't be seen or heard.
	So I played video games a lot and I played with Legos.
	So I was just kind of like out of this.
	And then like, you know, when I was on my riddle and I was just kind of like, well, you know, kind of tucked away and did my thing.
	So you've been neglected.
	Did your mom enjoy your company?
	Did she want to play board games with you or go for walks with you or play with you?
	Like when we were younger, but like, so we moved to Russia in 91.
	My dad worked for the state department.
	We were, we moved to Russia in 91.
	Uh, and we were there for a couple of years.
	And then like, like when we moved there and then when we moved back, like, uh, like life was just totally different.
	Sorry.
	How long were you in Russia?
	Uh, two years.
	Two years.
	Okay.
	Uh, and how old were you?
	Uh, I was 91.
	I was nine.
	So what the hell did you do in Russia for two years?
	Uh, so we lived on the embassy and English school or whatever, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And so when you're on the embassy, like there's like, it's literally like a couple of acres and like the outer perimeter wall and then housing on the inside.
	And they were just kids everywhere all the time.
	There was always something to do.
	So like, it was always, always playing with it, but not your parents.
	But not my parents.
	No, no, no.
	Like, my dad was always... Like, we went out and we went to, like, the marketplaces and things.
	Like, we did, like, those things.
	So, I learned how to speak Russian and I kind of get around.
	We were there when the wall came down.
	So, that was really cool.
	It's kind of funny how your dad is... I don't know.
	I'm not saying what he exactly did.
	But, you know, State Department.
	He's really into managing relationships and he can't even manage the relationship with his wife and kids.
	Right.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, well, it's interesting.
	You talk with someone and they'll, they'll tell you like how great their careers are.
	And then, you know, you ask about their home life and it's like absolutely terrible.
	It's like, I feel like I'm a diplomat.
	Can you be diplomatic with your wife and kids?
	Oh, hell no.
	But Russians?
	Yes.
	Wife and kids?
	No.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Got it.
	All right.
	So when you were young, I mean, how much do you remember your parents seeking out
	your company, wanting to enjoy your company, spend time with you, play with you?
	Not a whole lot.
	I mean, you know, like just from time to time.
	We didn't do a whole lot of family.
	We went on a couple of family vacations as a kid.
	I think twice we went to the beach before we moved to Moscow.
	Twice you went to the beach?
	Yeah.
	Only twice.
	Dad works for the state department.
	You're not broke.
	Um, yeah, we didn't do a whole lot.
	Um, yeah.
	That's terrible.
	I'm so sorry.
	Yeah.
	I mean, what do you think it did to your mind that your parents didn't really seem to enjoy your company or want to spend time with you?
	I, I, I think I, I managed.
	All right from there, but what I realized was just how far behind I was in kind of like life skills and managing things.
	Okay.
	So that's very intellectual.
	I'm talking about how did you feel?
	I think at the time it really didn't bother me and I, and I'm not trying to defend them.
	I just, well, you, I mean, you must've given up then.
	Yeah.
	I think that's, that's probably what it was is I just kind of like, Like, okay, well.
	So you could have no effect, right?
	You could have no effect.
	You couldn't win.
	You couldn't get their interest.
	They were too selfish.
	They were too self-absorbed.
	They were too fighting with each other or some career shit or something.
	So you gave up.
	You retreated to your room, your computer, right?
	Yeah.
	And played video games.
	Yeah.
	So that's, that's a kind of despair, right?
	Yeah.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yeah.
	I'm so sorry.
	That's very, it's very sad.
	It's very sad.
	I mean, I just, by the by, I mean, my daughter's 15 and a half and I did my show this morning and then we My wife's got some stuff to do, so my daughter and I had lunch, and then we went out for a nice long hike in nature, and then we went to a bookstore, and then we went to get some frozen yogurt, and then, you know, just, you know, a delightful couple of hours, and, you know, I'm aware that she's getting older, and, you know, other things are going to overtake before long, so I'm just drinking deep at the Oasis while it's still around, and I mean, I just, and I tell her, you know, at least once a week, sometimes to her occasional embarrassment, just how much
	Um, I appreciate her and enjoy her company and feel really privileged to, to have her in my life.
	And that's.
	I feel the same way with my kids.
	Like I see my 15 year old and, but things have gotten so bad with like the, the fighting and stuff.
	Like I try to tell like my kids, like, Oh, I love them and stuff.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And we'll, we'll get to that and I will get to that, but I'm trying to sort of figure out.
	How you know your father loves you when he doesn't really seem to want to spend much, if any, time with you.
	Yeah.
	When you were a kid.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Well, I know he always wanted to see me succeed.
	That could be for status.
	And if you really want to see your kids succeed, don't you tell them you love them and want to spend time with them and enjoy their company?
	Because that's going to help your kids succeed, isn't it?
	Um, okay.
	So, so the, uh, bare minimum time that he did spend with me, um, uh, you know, he, he did want me to, to do well and he encouraged me to do better.
	And so, so there wasn't anything discouraging, like maybe I would do it to my son.
	Right.
	Like, so like I'll, I I've been, uh, rude and mean to my son before, like a total jerk.
	And my dad never really did any of that stuff to me.
	Which means you're paying more attention to your son than he did to you.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So let's go back to how do you know, or how did you know that your father loved you when you were a kid?
	Or what made you think that?
	I guess he wasn't necessarily mean to me.
	Okay.
	That's pretty thin fucking gruel, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	That's like really some really watery porridge you got got on the table there.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And you, did you say, if I understood this correctly, he got a little better as you got older?
	Yeah.
	Like, so now that I've gotten older.
	No, no.
	I mean, as a teenager.
	Oh yeah.
	Yeah.
	As a teenager, like, yeah, then it was like, Hey, let's go like do some bike rides and things.
	And, and, uh, we like did a cross country, uh, trip and, um, I think what happened was my sister had a lot of medical problems and so my mom was kind of caught up in taking care of her a lot.
	Wait, your sister and your brother?
	Yeah.
	So my brother was full functioning except he had his anger issues.
	Um, and he, he was like, he was doing really well during the tech boom.
	So he had like a lot of money.
	Um, and this was, you know, late, uh, late nineties, early 2000s.
	So he was, he was doing all right there.
	And then, uh, uh, but my sister had a lot of medical problems.
	So my mom was busy helping her.
	And then I was kind of like coming of age in my mid teens.
	And so my dad was like, Oh, okay.
	Yeah.
	You know, let's hang out, let's go do stuff.
	And so it was like, you know, I was the only one left to really kind of like do something fun.
	When he kind of ran out of everyone else, he took up with you.
	I was fine with it.
	I'm sorry?
	No, no.
	I'm, uh, I'm making light of it, but I shouldn't be.
	All right.
	And so, were your parents good parents?
	Oh, heck.
	No.
	Okay.
	And have you talked to them?
	I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't, right?
	I'm just curious.
	Have you talked to them?
	About the limitations that you perceived in their parenting or the things that hurt you or made you feel alone.
	Yes.
	And, uh, my, uh, yeah, yes.
	My father has come to the defense of my mother.
	Um, and my mother as.
	I defended her actions and like, well, you know, the, the, the usual thing, and you've said it many times, you said, well, we did this, we go to what we had.
	Um, And, uh, yeah, so there's, there's been, uh, but, but no real progress.
	Um, you know, and I, and I, I've, I've had it out with them.
	Like I, I've, I've had it out with them.
	What do you mean?
	Well, like, you know, I, I, I really told like, Hey, you know, well, you know, my, my brother suffered because of like these things that you did and, you know, you, uh, you know, because of like you guys fighting and yada, yada, yada.
	Um, you know, that, that really helped me.
	So did you.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Like, like we all suffered and then like, because you guys thought like, you guys never gave us like any relationship advice.
	And so like, look at like, you know, uh, Yeah.
	If you could say the names, I'd appreciate it, but sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Sure.
	Like that, you know, you look, look at my brother, you looked at me and you know, like I had a difficult time like navigating relationships and such.
	And.
	You know, like, well, you know, but, you know, no one really showed us.
	And so, you know, but we did all right.
	And, you know, you guys, you know, and it's like, wait, are they putting your brother in the category of people who did all right?
	Right.
	Like, well, you know, but just some people are the way they are and some, you know, and it's, it's all just excuses.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So they've not taken any responsibility for any of their actions, right?
	Right.
	And what value do they bring to your life as a whole?
	Um...
	I mean, they did great harm, right?
	And they have not taken any ownership or apologised for anything.
	So, what... I mean, do you expect your kids... I mean, you said that, you know, if your son was mean, right?
	You'd get really upset, right?
	Even when he was five years old, right?
	Right, right.
	So, hang on, so your son, at five, really has to take responsibility for the mean things he does, right?
	But your parents, in their seventies or eighties or however old they are, apparently don't.
	So you're fine imposing massive free will and moral standards on your five-year-old, just not on your parents.
	Well, yeah, I guess...
	To that end, right?
	I mean, wasn't your five-year-old doing the best he could with the knowledge he had?
	Right, right.
	But that wasn't good enough, right?
	Right.
	How dare you hit this on your kid and not your parents?
	Which is why I've tried to kind of, like, ease up and say, you know, and not be as harsh on him, because I realize, like, No, no, it means you don't have any moral standards, as far as this stuff goes.
	things are wrong and at some point he's going to like be bigger than me and like
	okay so that's that's why I've like I tried no no you don't have any moral
	standards as far as this stuff goes I'm not saying you're a new moral person in
	general right but if you say well I have to hold my five-year-old or my
	ten-year-old or my 15 year old they're morally responsible for the mean things
	But my parents, you know, they've never apologized, never take any ownership and the, but that's okay.
	They still love me.
	So does that mean like cutting them out?
	Like, I don't know like how to deal with.
	Cause like we already don't, don't see them a lot.
	Like maybe once every couple of months and like, you know, I talked to him like maybe once a month, maybe every couple of weeks, you know, like.
	But like, I just don't know how to handle, you know, cause I already kind of keep them at arm's length.
	I mean, they, they love, like, they're very good around our children.
	Like my, my dad is very good around our kids.
	But that's terrible.
	Right.
	So it's like, why, why do they get, right.
	And I've seen this with plenty of grandparents.
	That's sadistic in my view.
	Uh huh.
	Like, well, why are you so good with your grandkids?
	Well, it's saying, Hey man, you know, we're great with kids.
	It must've been you.
	Well, I was. I got a great with kids.
	Yeah.
	My concern is the aggression that you have.
	I'm trying to figure out the cause of the aggression.
	Yeah.
	Now your father was aggressive with your mother, right?
	Right.
	And then my brother.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah.
	And my brother was also aggressive as well.
	So there's plenty of.
	No, but your father was aggressive to your brother too.
	Right.
	Right?
	And you say he's both capable of being incredibly abusive towards your brother and of great love.
	Right.
	Right?
	Like, I think you might have to pick a lane there.
	Right, right.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Can you be incredibly abusive? Or at least abusive and also loving?
	It would be...
	Because you're trying to do the two to some degree, right?
	I'm not saying incredibly abusive, right?
	But, you know, threatening your son and all of that.
	Which I know of.
	More in the past, right?
	More in the past.
	Yeah.
	But... That would be abusive.
	Well, I mean, it's pretty scary, right?
	So where's this level of aggression coming from?
	It comes from not condemning aggression.
	Whatever we condemn, we just don't do.
	You condemn robbing banks, right?
	I mean, hey, we all know in the modern system it's the bank's job to rob us.
	We don't want to interfere with that predation.
	But there are things that you just won't do because you morally condemn them.
	So the only reason you'd be aggressive is you haven't condemned it.
	So then the question is, why haven't you condemned it?
	Well, because that would be to really judge your parents.
	Right, right.
	And if you're like, well, you know, they're great with the kids, they still showed love when I was a kid, and you know, blah blah blah blah blah, well then you haven't condemned the aggression.
	You haven't held them accountable.
	And you can't hold them accountable except in your own mind, right?
	Because you can't hold other people accountable.
	We're not judge-juries, right?
	Right.
	So in your mind, though, it's kind of okay.
	And so if aggression is kind of okay, then you're going to be aggressive.
	Because it's kind of okay.
	Right.
	The only way that we stop behavior is absolutely unacceptable.
	It's absolutely unacceptable, and that's a universal thing.
	It's not just absolutely unacceptable for you, but okay for your parents, right?
	Because that's not absolute, right?
	Absolute is universal, right?
	You don't say, well, I'm not going to rob a bank in this town, but one town and over, that's totally fine.
	Right, right, right.
	So it's absolutely unacceptable to aggress against children.
	Absolutely unacceptable.
	Okay, so that way you stop aggressing against your own children, but then you have the problem of your judgment of your father and your mother.
	Right, right.
	So that's the hole through which the aggression comes pouring through, is you have not judged.
	Now, people say, oh, but if I judge my parents, what do I do?
	I don't know!
	I don't care!
	Because that's not philosophy.
	That's pragmatism.
	Philosophy is, is it okay to abuse children?
	To neglect them, to use aggression against them, and so on.
	Well, no.
	Of course, it's absolutely unacceptable.
	It's unacceptable for you, it's unacceptable for me, it's unacceptable for Bob in Alaska, and it's unacceptable for your mother and your father.
	Now, say, ah, yes, but if I make this judgment, what do I do about it?
	It's like, I don't care!
	I do care that it becomes absolutely unacceptable for you to be aggressive.
	And we'll get into your wife here.
	The whole point of this, I understand, is about your wife, right?
	But we need to sort of... Where's the aggression permission coming from?
	Right, right.
	And it comes from... My parents are, you know, not ideal, but, you know, it's okay.
	You haven't gone to that place where it's like, no, they did some really terrible things and they're not taking any ownership.
	And that's unacceptable.
	Now, whether you call them every couple... I don't know, I don't care.
	That's not the important thing.
	The important thing is the line that's drawn in your head.
	Like, this shit does not happen.
	This is not okay.
	It never was, never will be, never is.
	Never, never, never.
	Right?
	Not in public versus private, not here, there, in the car, out at the funeral.
	Never!
	Right.
	And it never was right.
	And my parents' bullshit excuses don't change a goddamn thing.
	It was never right.
	And they know it.
	And they knew it.
	it, they didn't do it in public either, right?
	Did they constantly yell at each other and bicker in public?
	Sorry, I'm not sure if you heard the question.
	Yeah, I'm trying to remember.
	I think they did.
	Oh, so they were like Bickertons even at dinner parties and at restaurants and they would just yell at each other.
	Um, yeah, kind of embarrassing.
	You think that might cost your, your, your, your dad a little bit of his career, but all right.
	That's what they did.
	That's what they did, right?
	We never went out anywhere, but there were a couple of times we had gone out and they like did get into like these small little spats and stuff.
	Okay.
	But not as big as at home.
	No, no.
	Okay.
	So they could manage to control their behavior.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	For the most part.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Was it ever acceptable to be neglected and aggressed against by your parents?
	What do you mean?
	Was it ever okay?
	Was it ever acceptable?
	Do you give them excuses?
	Do you accept their excuses?
	No, no, no.
	Okay, so if you don't accept their excuses... Then I can't do it for myself.
	Well, hang on, yes, that's true, but there's one step before that.
	So, their excuses are false, right?
	Because they didn't give you those excuses when you were a kid, right?
	So, your dad said to you as a kid, you said this a little while ago, I'm not trying to catch you out, I'm just sort of pointing out these contradictions, right?
	So, you said that your dad told you like he was really committed to you being better, to you improving, getting better marks, getting better grades and so on, right?
	Is that right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so your dad was all about improvement.
	Like, you've got to do better, kid.
	You've got to step it up.
	You've got to, right?
	You've got to do better, right?
	Okay.
	Fantastic.
	So, your dad is all about studying to improve things, right?
	And spend zero time self-improvement himself.
	Well, I mean, did he ever crack a book on parenting?
	Because he's all about improve, right?
	No, I think he expected my mom to do all that.
	Well, I don't know what he thought or didn't think, but he didn't do what he told you was the most important thing or a very important thing, which was to continually read, study and improve, right?
	Right, right, right.
	If you'd have said to your dad when he was saying, kid, you've got to read, study and improve, if you were to say, hey, you know, the important thing is I'll just do the best with whatever knowledge I have, right?
	I mean, if I don't study for an exam, I'll just write the exam and I'll just do the best That I can with the knowledge I have or I don't have with regards to the exam.
	If you were to say that, you know, maybe I'll study, maybe I won't, but I'll take the exam and I'll just do the best I can with the knowledge I have.
	What would he say?
	No.
	No, no.
	I'm just doing the best I can.
	I mean, this is your parenting, right?
	This is your parenting, Dad.
	Your parenting is you just do the best you can with the knowledge you have and, you know, fuck it, just see what happens, right?
	Don't study, just, you know.
	Go on your gut instinct or go on whatever, right?
	You don't study, you don't learn, you don't improve.
	Right?
	So if you were to say that to him, he'd say, no, you got to study, kid, right?
	That's just lazy.
	Right?
	And that's not productive.
	That's not going to work.
	You can't just not study and then just do the best you can with the knowledge you have.
	What are you, some kind of idiot?
	Isn't that what he would say?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So he's totally full of shit.
	Yeah.
	So he's a complete hypocrite because he imposed rules upon you when you were five and seven and ten that he was studying at a far more important thing, which is parenting, than a fucking spelling bee when you're a kid or a test, a grammar test or whatever math test.
	So he's saying you should never be content with the knowledge you have.
	You should always work to seek and improve your knowledge.
	And it's really, really important for a geometry test when you're eight, but not my entire fucking parenting.
	Right.
	So he's a total hypocrite.
	Yeah.
	And he then, because he commanded you, or encouraged you, or exhorted you, to improve your knowledge, right?
	To get better, to get more knowledgeable, and you would never have as an excuse, I did the best I could with the knowledge I had, but that's the excuse he uses for 25 years of parenting, or 20 years of parenting, right?
	Right, right.
	So it's a total lie.
	I mean, you tell people to improve, you can't say improvement is not necessary.
	You tell a kid to improve, you can't say as an adult improvement is not necessary.
	I'm sure he studied things for his career, right?
	I'm sure he studied Russian or whatever culture or history or whatever to go and get the post in Russia.
	So, yeah, I mean, he's got no excuse.
	So, what this means is that he's completely and totally happy.
	Happy, I tell you.
	Happy.
	To gaslight you and lie to you about the central pain in your life which is causing a lot of problems with your kids and in particular with your wife.
	So he won't give you any relief.
	He won't put aside his own comfort to help you by accepting his responsibility for what he did.
	He won't model any self-ownership.
	He'll just make excuses and watch your marriage slide into the shitter rather than be honest and take some responsibility for how he was as a father.
	And you call this love?
	He's sacrificing your marriage, in part, to preserve his own immediate comfort, so that he doesn't have to say or do anything uncomfortable, or take any responsibility.
	And he's also modeling that the patriarch doesn't take responsibility.
	Right, right.
	I mean, does he know?
	He knows.
	He would know exactly how damaging that is to you, right?
	Right.
	And yet he's doing it, and he's got no problem doing it.
	When did you confront him?
	About a year ago.
	Right.
	So a year, he's, you've said, you know, things were pretty agonizing in some ways.
	I need you to start taking responsibility.
	It would really help me.
	And he's like, nah, fuck that.
	I'm not taking any goddamn responsibility.
	Thank you very much.
	I'm going to give you a bunch of platitudes and send you off to go fight with your wife.
	Yeah.
	I mean, Jesus, man, you gotta be kidding me about love.
	Mmm.
	Right?
	you Shouldn't he?
	I mean, you sacrifice for your kids, right?
	You sacrifice your comfort and all of that sometimes for your kids, and yet he won't even tell the truth and take responsibility when he knows how painful and destructive it is when he doesn't.
	He's still that selfish.
	Right.
	Well, he ran away from the responsibility from, like, his first wife and kid and, like, never, you know, never kept in touch with the kid, so I don't know what ever happened to the girl.
	This was in the 60s.
	And then, you know, cheating on my mom with Someone else said, and I know that's like, just, yeah, but anyway, but, uh, yeah, in terms of talking about taking responsibility and hypocritical and yeah, there's plenty of other indicators there that are pointing to the exact same thing.
	so. So does he love you?
	I think it meets his definition of love, but no.
	Why on earth would I care about his definition of love?
	If he doesn't act in a loving manner towards his own offspring, why on earth would I care what his definition of love is, right?
	When I talk about this with you, or we make this case, or I make this case, how do you feel?
	Don't give me theory.
	How do you feel?
	Sad because I see myself headed for the same thing with my kids.
	Well, that's what I'm really trying to block here.
	We can't do anything about your childhood, but we sure as heck can do something about your kid's childhood, right?
	Right.
	I, so, uh, just, uh, as a side, uh, I see myself spending a lot more, like exponentially more time with, with my kids than like my dad did and telling them constantly how much I care and love about them.
	Uh, and I still feel like I'm, I'm falling hellishly short.
	Oh, and sure.
	How do you feel?
	Sure.
	I just, just because, uh, my, I think the, the relationship with my wife and I just fighting so much has just tainted everything so that they can be like, uh, how could you, like, you have just so soured everything, dad.
	And they didn't seven say said this, but if I were to guess their words, it's like, you've soured everything so much that.
	Yeah.
	Like.
	We can't even take the fact that you, like, say you love us seriously because things have just gotten so bad between my wife and I. Like, that's how I, that's how I perceive it.
	You know, sometimes, you know, maybe I'm a little more harsh in my judgment, but... No, listen, I mean, so how often are you and your wife fighting, and I don't just mean like a little disagreement here and there, like which way to turn on the street, but how often are you and your wife engaged in not insignificant conflict?
	Not insignificant.
	So probably once a month.
	There's probably some kind of issue or like, I think we've handled some of them better in the last six months.
	Um, but usually it's about once a month there and there's probably like some small disagreements or something where I'm, uh, maybe like once a week where there's something like more minor and say, Once a week to once a month.
	I mean that's a significant improvement over your own parents, right?
	It may be the same amount as my parents.
	Same amount, okay.
	And so, I'm obviously pleasantly surprised that it's only once a month.
	And so, when I say not insignificant disagreement, what do you interpret that as?
	Or what are you answering that as?
	So if I say insignificant and were you saying that?
	No, like if I say, you say once a month, there's like a not insignificant disagreement.
	So what does that look like?
	Um, for the kids maybe, or, or for you?
	I've tried to keep things like quiet.
	I'm trying to think the the last time we had something it was like last month
	Um, so when we had our big blow up back in like november when I called you the first time one of the things
	that really kind of like took things off was um
	Uh My daughters had told my wife that I was looking at women
	Like when we were driving you know, if there's like
	You know Someone who is dressed inappropriately or something like
	that. They would say like oh, yeah, you know dad stares at women or something like that
	So they told my wife and That really kind of like set things off.
	Um, one of the accusations that came out of there was that like because I did that it like made my daughters uncomfortable Because they were like well You know if you're doing that like we feel and say like how do we know you're not Doing those things like looking at us inappropriately also and that was like a mind-blowing thing like holy crap like i'm being accused by my kids of this of like Staring at them inappropriately because I'm staring at other, like, driving by women or whatever, you know, the context is.
	Did your daughters talk about that with you at the time?
	Did they go to your wife or did they?
	They went to my wife and then, like, she brought it up to me, but because, like, my wife knew that I was, like, Oh, having a long look, whatever you want to call it, because she knew that was happening.
	I think there was, I think she tried to defend me, but she was also kind of like upset that that it was happening.
	So I think there was kind of like a mixed signal there, like the kids.
	And so I felt like I was kind of like left to defend myself.
	Sorry.
	And your daughters were sorry, how old is like last year?
	15 and 13 ish.
	Where would they get the idea?
	Let's say that you, I don't know, threw a second glance at some hot woman on the street or something like that, right?
	So where would they get the idea, though, that that would be something that might be inappropriate between you and your daughter?
	That's a bit of an odd jump to me.
	I don't know why, but I have mentioned to them, like, You know girls who dress scantily clad on like TikTok and other places like hey well you know they're kind of doing it for attention and you want to make sure that you know you have a good personality and you could talk to people and you know don't just have somebody be around you for your looks be around like you know but all these women are doing it for attention when you know the look stayed you want to have a personality something that's going to like make the person like stay around so don't get caught up in like all the looks so I'd like kind of would emphasize that
	But you know, but then they would also be like, well, dad's like staring at these women.
	So it's like, but like, I wouldn't like, we wouldn't let our daughter, like my wife was on the same page.
	Like, Hey, like you guys can't dress like inappropriately.
	And then they would.
	Sorry, but I still not sure what they would get from you looking at women on the street to, to looking at them in some kind of way like that.
	I mean, I'm not sure where that, that would come.
	I mean, obviously that's not the case.
	Right.
	So I'm not sure where that would come from.
	Yeah.
	I don't know where it came from.
	Is it school?
	Could it come from your wife?
	Is there like, where?
	I'm trying to figure out, because that's a huge divide to put between a father and his daughters, right?
	Yeah, I think she did try to defend me, but there was still tension between us, and so it was like, maybe, I don't know if the kids felt like Oh, well, mom's just defending dad, but they're still fighting.
	So they talked about this with your mom and they come out with the idea that you might be looking at them inappropriately.
	Yeah, I don't know where it came.
	I know that we could possibly say my wife, but I think she said, like, she didn't mention anything like that to her and I'm going to trust her.
	And so I don't know if it's just kids.
	Doing some kind of analytical leap or something like that.
	So I'm going to take my wife at her word and say that like, okay, I hope.
	And that was last November, right?
	Yeah.
	That was like, yeah, in the fall timeframe.
	And then this last month, April, same issue came up with my oldest daughter.
	Um, and she was like, Oh, I saw you looking at women.
	I was like, I had not done any dog gone.
	Like I had like, Nailed this thing down as best I could.
	Like, if you want to, well, you, I saw you look at so-and-so.
	I was like, like, we, she was like, we were at a restaurant in Massachusetts and I saw you looking at, because we were there at the beginning of April again, like visiting the grandfather before he died.
	She's like, I saw you looking at such, I was like, I don't even remember who that was.
	And I was like, I'm going to defend this one adamantly.
	Cause I was not like, I don't even care.
	Like I'd like tried my absolute damndest to like, like change this.
	And like, listen to it.
	So I was like, this is baloney.
	She's like, well, you know, I don't even know if you're still like, you know, looking at us.
	I was like, that is total garbage.
	I was like, like to stand there and like, it's in the middle of the night.
	So it's like 10, 11 at night that like, you know, this, this thing was brought up at like nine at night.
	My wife's like, oh, you know, your daughter, she needs to talk to you.
	There's like something really going on.
	Like, I think you need, you know, you need to discuss something.
	So then I like talk with her and then it like escalates from like nine until So, like, discussing anything past 9pm, I've, like, put a moratorium on that.
	I don't want to do that anymore, because all it does is just two people exhausted, and nothing gets accomplished, and you just, like, wake up super cringey.
	Wait, so your daughter is still saying that you might be looking at her inappropriately, because she thinks you're looking at women as a whole inappropriately, or looking at scantily-clothed women?
	She was still convinced that I was looking at women inappropriately, and then still wasn't sure whether I was looking at her And I was like, that's a total lie.
	That is not true.
	I totally changed.
	I don't believe that whatsoever.
	And then my wife was like, hey, like another kind of, like, hey, like, you know, so-and-so, like telling our daughter, like, you dad, like.
	But, you know, there were like phrases that were said, like, well, I don't know.
	What did your wife say to your daughter?
	She's hearing these crazy accusations.
	And what did she say?
	My wife and my daughter were in the living room with me downstairs and it was late at night.
	And I was like, I'm telling you, I was like, like, I'm telling my wife, like, Hey, look, I've been with you for, for 23 weeks.
	Like, you know, like this has never even been an issue.
	Like we, like no adult material, like nothing, like there's not anything like that.
	And she's like, well, I don't know.
	Because, you know, you also told me that you didn't look at women.
	I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
	You're not even going to like.
	So your daughter is saying, well, what if you're looking at me inappropriately and your wife is there, right?
	Right.
	And what does your wife say to this crazy accusation?
	It was like kind of a, um, uh, not, uh, uh, it was a, what I would consider not a very firm defense.
	Okay, what did she say?
	Did she say that's absolutely outrageous, you can't think that about your father, that's absolutely false, my gosh.
	Like, he's your father.
	Come on, this is like crazy.
	Let's say there's some woman with, I don't know, some crazy tight skirt and he glances.
	Yes, he's a man, you know, whatever, right?
	But you're his daughter.
	This is completely not even remotely the same.
	Where was the full-throated defense of this and making sure that the daughter didn't go down this crazy path?
	No.
	mindset of like, oh, let's say there's a girl who's walking by, like, even if I look, it's automatic adultery, which like, hey, I guess, you know, it says that in the in the Bible, and I'm Christian, and it's like, okay, look, I realize I've sinned, but I'm asking for your forgiveness, like with this stuff happens.
	You know, like I... I'm sorry, is your wife also, I mean, serious Christian, right?
	I mean, which I obviously respect and all of that, so your wife is also quite down with Christian theology, right?
	So, I'm going to be held to an even harder standard because I'm trying to be a pastor and... Okay, let's go back to... I appreciate that.
	I'm sorry to interrupt, but let's go back to your wife.
	She also goes to church and she takes Christianity very seriously, right?
	Yes.
	So does she submit?
	For the most part, yes.
	Really?
	Then why are you fighting?
	Because then she would say that she's not allowed to have an opinion and so she just... Okay, so she doesn't submit.
	I mean, you're supposed to be the head of the household, right?
	We have had discussions, like, hey, if I'm supposed to lead, she's like, oh, you're not leading, you're not doing it.
	No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, that's not her choice.
	If I understand the theology, and I'm no theologian, right?
	But if I understand this, then she's supposed to submit, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so why is she concerned about you glancing at some woman on the streets when she's fighting in the household?
	Maybe I'm missing something.
	And again, I'm no expert on this, but she shouldn't be fighting with you, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	But it's like, well, oh, so then, uh, so you, so I, you know, the wife have to submit, but then you don't have to, uh, adhere to these rules.
	Sorry, which are the rules?
	You have to have built-in pixels in your brain that translate every female form into like
	Gaussian blurs or something?
	I don't understand.
	I mean, you can't see women?
	Now, it's one thing if you see an attractive woman as a...
	I mean, my understanding of the theology is something like this.
	Look, if you see an attractive woman, you will notice that she's attractive.
	You may even appreciate her form a little bit.
	But that's not saying, I'm going to plan to meet her and I want to undress her and fantasizing
	about having sex with her.
	That's the difference, right?
	I mean, the Bible doesn't say you have to be functionally blind as a husband.
	It's, in essence, if you've already thought about a woman in your mind, then you've basically already cheated.
	So, like, even if I look at her... No, no, with lust in your heart.
	If you look at a woman with lust in your heart, Which means it's something to do with love and attachment, and it's saying, it's saying that it is a sin against your wife to start lusting after other women, because, I mean, A, it's a sin against the vows, and also, B, it's going to lead you down the path of infidelity.
	Right.
	And, well, that's what I was accused of lusting after other women.
	Because you glanced at them in the street?
	Yes.
	Okay, that's just plain bullying.
	Like, I'm just going to be frank with you.
	Like, okay, for instance, are you allowed to go to a museum where there may be sculptures of topless women, right?
	The sort of Greco-Roman stuff or the, you know, Michelangelo stuff.
	Are you allowed to admire the female form and say, that is a beautiful carving?
	Probably, yeah.
	Okay.
	Are you allowed to acknowledge that there is an attractive woman on the street?
	That may or may not get me in trouble.
	Well, let me ask you this.
	Are you allowed to look around the street?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	If you look at a woman and you... Don't look too long.
	I'm sorry?
	Don't look too long.
	Okay, I don't know what that means, because I don't know that there's a countdown.
	So, if you look at a woman, are you allowed to go through the automatic process of noticing whether she's attractive or not?
	That's an automatic process.
	We don't control that, right?
	Right, right.
	So, you are allowed to look around the street, and if your glance happens to fall upon a woman who is attractive, you are allowed to register that, right?
	Mentally, yes.
	What do you mean mentally?
	The whole thing is a bodily process.
	I mean, the bodily process of seeing, the bodily process of processing the inflammation.
	That's an automatic process.
	The bodily process of evaluating attractiveness.
	And the reason that men have to evaluate attractiveness, I mean, is to some degree to know who to steer clear of.
	So if a woman is really putting out a highly sexual vibe as a married man, I mean, I would say as a man as a whole, but certainly as a married man, we have to steer clear of her, right?
	Right.
	I mean, it's like saying you have to drive without hitting any potholes, but you're not allowed to look and see if there are any potholes.
	Like, that wouldn't make any sense, right?
	Right.
	But if, like, where you might get in trouble would be a double-take, right?
	Like, you see a protracted woman, and then you look back and you're like, wait, did I, you know, that would be inappropriate behavior.
	Or considered, that would be considered lusting.
	That would be considered lust if you look again?
	Right, like yeah, like so let's say I'm driving or like you're at a beach and there's an attractive woman and you stare too long or you look again.
	That would fall into the category from my understanding for my wife that I would much rather be with that than my wife.
	Well, but when she fights with you, when she fights with you, she's saying that you're not doing the right thing, you're not good enough for her, there's something negative about you.
	That's infidelity as well, right?
	Like, you understand?
	Fighting with your spouse is a form of infidelity.
	Because you're saying, I wish you were different.
	And it's a much, much more serious form of infidelity than looking twice at a butt-thonged bikini.
	Right.
	I mean, am I wrong?
	Well, yeah, because that's way more destructive, I think.
	Oh, absolutely.
	I mean, if I'm at the beach and there's some woman, I'll do a double take if I literally think she's not wearing anything.
	No, I'm not kidding.
	Like, you know, some of these women, they have these bikinis, you can't even see them.
	It's like two giant wobbly butt cheeks.
	Right.
	And I'm like, I need to, I do a double take.
	Cause I'm like, is she wearing nothing?
	Or, you know, out of the corner of my eye, I glanced at a woman and she's wearing one of these like tiny flesh colored bikinis.
	I'm like, is she naked?
	And I, I need to, I looked back to check.
	Right.
	Have I now lusted and sinned?
	I'm actually just, you know, I want to know if there's somebody crazy on the beach who's naked, right?
	Right.
	I guess I'm just trying to do, at least from my side since I can't control anybody else, try and do the right thing and not... Okay, how is appeasing going?
	No, not well.
	It doesn't work, right?
	So listen, Scripture, I'm telling you this from the bottom of my heart, I'm not a pastor, so take this with all the grains of salt in you want, plus I apologize for cussing earlier, but Scripture is not for bullying.
	Right.
	It should never, ever, ever be used for bullying.
	It should never be used to control others.
	It should never be used to put others down.
	It should never be used to hound others or win points.
	That's not what scripture is for.
	Scripture is for the idealistic profession of your own soul in preparation for heaven.
	It is not to nag your husband for a double take.
	That is misusing scripture to score points in a stupid marital battle.
	Which would make Jesus weep rivers of tears.
	That his sacrifice on the cross, on Calvary, bleeding to death for days, was so your wife could nag you for looking twice.
	I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have done it for that.
	And you know the old thing, right?
	Why are you so concerned with the speck of dust in your brother's eye and ignore the giant beam in your own?
	Is your wife so godly and Christian and virtuous and perfect Well, she's never lusted over another man, so... That's what she would say.
	She's like, I've never looked at anybody else.
	I've never cheated.
	I've never cheated.
	She's never looked at other men and noticed if they're attractive?
	Then she's lying.
	Never.
	No, she's lying.
	Come on.
	I mean, this is ridiculous.
	She's never looked at Ryan Gosling and said, hey, he's an attractive guy.
	Of course she has.
	I mean, that's not the same as cheating.
	Right.
	She does not think he's attractive.
	I think he's very attractive.
	Okay, whoever she thinks is attractive.
	But yeah.
	No, that's, look, come on, thou shalt not bear false witness.
	She wants to, it sounds like she wants to nag and bully you on this point, and so she's holding this as a standard, and she's seeing if she can get away with it, and you're letting her get away with it.
	So if somebody were to say, anybody were to say to me, I'm, I don't know, what are you in your 40s or whatever, 50s, whatever.
	Somebody said, you said you'd be married over 20 years, right?
	So if somebody would say to me, I have been married over 20 years, I've never looked and ever noticed that another man was attractive, I would just say, oh, come on, like, this is ridiculous.
	Right, right.
	Right?
	This is like the guy on the live stream the other day who was like, I've achieved every single one of my dreams.
	It's like, really?
	You don't have a dream of world peace?
	You don't have a dream of like, you know, no abuse for children?
	I mean, come on, right?
	This is ridiculous.
	It's just a lie.
	It's a lie, and it's an embarrassing lie, because it's so obvious.
	Now, she, of course, can complain, oh, I've never, ever noticed whether any man is attractive.
	It's like, oh, come on.
	I mean... Well, I think she, like, you know, Saber, that she, yeah, notices them, that they're attractive, but not in, like, a lusting after.
	But it's different for her versus me looking.
	And please don't answer anything you're uncomfortable with.
	But just in general, are you content and happy with the physical side of your marriage, or has that fallen prey to the conflicts?
	Yeah, you mean like intimacy and all that other stuff?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, like that has never, like everything's fine, like sexually, like plenty, more than I could ask for.
	Okay, good, good.
	All right.
	So, like, and she, she's very attractive.
	You know, I, Like, she, after four kids, like, she has a great body, she's, you know, like... Oh, that's wonderful to hear, that's wonderful to hear.
	Now, would she also, would she say that, in general, to be Christian is to focus on improving yourself rather than correcting others?
	Focus on improving yourself.
	Right, and so I guess my question would be, is she morally perfect to the point where she can nag you for something as minor as a double take?
	Well, no.
	Okay, so then she's kind of sinning a little, isn't she, by nagging you?
	Mm-hmm.
	Because the time, effort, and energy that she's putting into nagging you, she could put towards the improvement of her own soul, right?
	Yep.
	She told me on numerous occasions that she was worried about the endangerment of my soul, that I would go to hell for the sinning that I had done through lusting after.
	But the double takes on the street?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And she's fully comfortable that her soul is in a state of such perfection that she's really concerned about your double takes on the street?
	Well, she was also concerned for herself, because I'm supposed to be spiritually leading this household, and here I am, committing a mortal sin.
	I'm sorry, a mortal sin?
	Sorry, a double take on the street is a mortal sin now?
	Well, because I've already lusted in my heart.
	So, therefore.
	Okay, so, then you're just going to hell, is that right?
	Like, there's just no escape?
	Right.
	Does this seem a little extreme to you?
	Uh, yes, but I like once it's once the conversation gets to a point where uh, there's all there's almost There's no like hey, maybe can can we dial this back?
	Like maybe can we talk about this a little bit more reasonably?
	It's uh, you know, like once people dig in it's like there's no Room for trying to Win people over to change their minds.
	No, no, but she's not supposed to nag you.
	You're supposed to love the sinner, hate the sin, but she's not supposed to nag you, right?
	Well... I mean, nagging is a sin.
	I mean, doesn't the Bible say it's better to live on the corner of a roof than in a house with a quarrelsome woman?
	But it's... If I was her, I would be saying, well, I would... I'm not...
	I'm trying to save you, because I want you to go to heaven, and I'm trying to tell you that you have to stop doing this thing, because it's so bad, and I don't want you to be at risk of losing your soul.
	Okay, but do you lust after other women?
	No, I'm not thinking about them like that.
	Okay, so then you're not sinning.
	I gave up adult material eight years ago.
	Okay, and I appreciate that.
	So you're not sinning, right?
	Right.
	I'm trying!
	You're not looking and fantasizing about sex with other women and trying to figure out how to meet them and stalking them on Instagram, right?
	No, I am not.
	Okay, so it's sinning in your heart, not in your eyes, right?
	Laughs after them in their heart.
	So, as far as I understand, you're not sinning, but you're being Gestapo'd into near oblivion.
	Because you're out in public, and she's staring at you, and your daughters are staring at you, about where your eyes are going.
	That's insane!
	Like, I'm sorry, that's exhausting!
	Well, I guess my actions were noticeable enough that made them think that I was lusting.
	So... No, but, but you're not lusting.
	You're noticing, right?
	As a friend of mine said, I'm married, I'm not blind, right?
	So you're noticing, right?
	Right.
	But you're not lusting, right?
	Yeah, but I'm not like, I'm not like, oh, I would, I would hit that or... Right, right, right.
	So you're not lusting.
	So when you say to them, I'm noticing I'm not lusting, what do they say?
	Um I
	I don't think that I've articulated that but I because I I think
	No, but they say you're lusting after women in your heart and you say, I'm not.
	I think my wife has, her defense of me in that has not been.
	No, no, when they say, oh, let's just talk about your wife, the fact that your daughters are involved is beyond
	disturbing to me, we'll get to that in a sec.
	But your wife says you're lusting after women in your heart because you noticed or did a double take on this attractive
	woman.
	And you say, no, I noticed that she's attractive, but I'm not lusting after her in my heart.
	She wouldn't believe me.
	So she's now calling you a liar?
	Well, then why would you look?
	Okay, let's do this.
	Let's do this roleplay, right?
	Okay.
	Sure.
	So she says, you looked twice.
	Okay, so tell me, you look at a woman and then you glance back.
	Is that something like that?
	Yeah, and caveat before we do the roleplay.
	Months before, a while before, she'd ask me, like, oh, are you looking at other ones?
	I was like, no, no, I'm not.
	But then, like, I'd be in the car, and, you know, that situation would happen, and then my daughters told her, and they'd be like, she was like, I thought you said you didn't do that, and I trusted you first, and now your daughters are telling me that you're doing that in front of them.
	And now I can't trust you because you told me this.
	Okay, so how did your daughters know?
	That this private quasi sexual matter between you and your wife was a thing.
	Who told your daughters that this was a thing?
	This is wildly inappropriate.
	I guess maybe because my actions were so blatant, but I don't know.
	Come on, come on.
	Who told them?
	Oh, I think they were like, no, they were like in the car.
	They were in the car with my wife and a friend, and they were like, the girls were, like, my wife and some other lady were talking about something, and I'm probably butchering it, but I think it was something along the lines, like, they were talking about that, and they were like, oh yeah, you know, no, no, dad, dad, he looks at, he looks at other women, too.
	And it was like embarrassing for my wife.
	Wait, who said that?
	My daughters.
	Okay, but how did your daughters know to even check on this with you, or?
	I have no idea.
	But you didn't tell them?
	No.
	So who told them, keep an eye out on dad looking at women?
	Yeah, I don't know.
	Did it come from... I mean, I assume that you're with them in church?
	Did some priest say that you gotta be like little Gestapo girls about your... So where would they have even heard about this as a thing?
	I don't think they would have.
	Okay, so didn't it come from your wife?
	I don't think she would have told them anything like that.
	Then the mystery remains.
	Where would they learn to start policing this stuff with you?
	There may be a piece of the conversation that I'm thinking is out of context.
	I'm sorry, say again?
	I'm not sure what you mean.
	There may be another There might be some more information that I just don't remember from what my wife or my daughters have said, but I could have sworn that, like, one of my daughters was in a car with my wife, and my wife and her friend were talking about something along this line, and, like, attractive women, and, like, then one of my daughters was like, oh, Dad would have stared at that, or looked at that, or something along those lines.
	Okay, so then your daughter says something that's very disrespectful to you, right?
	Right.
	And what does your wife say?
	Um, and then my wife was like, Oh no, he, he doesn't do that.
	And she's like, Oh yeah, no, I, I saw him.
	He, he did it recently or something like that.
	And then my wife confronted me about it.
	Okay.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	And how old was your daughter at this point?
	12 something.
	So why is she doing that?
	Why is she causing this kind of trouble?
	I don't know.
	Yeah, you do.
	Strife between me and my wife.
	Why she's, she's absolutely stirring up a whole bunch of crap here and, and setting you and your wife against each other.
	And this has been happening now for months, right?
	Yeah.
	So what's she doing?
	Well, so, so that's the 12 and a half year old.
	And then the other one, the 15 year old will like hopped on board with this after.
	So this is a rebellion, right?
	This is a rebellion against Authority, right?
	I don't mean your authority as, like, the man of the house.
	I mean, just as a parent, right?
	Right.
	Like, you don't talk about me like that.
	What are you doing?
	Well, Dad, we saw you this, that, the other.
	It's like, you can ask me.
	You can talk to me about things.
	Don't you dare dump your conclusions about my sin.
	Yeah.
	Like, that is unacceptable.
	Yeah, no, uh, my, my, like this also happened again this morning when we were coming home from church and my wife did.
	And your wife did what?
	All my kids were talking about just how bad I was.
	And how terrible it is.
	Because of this whole second take?
	No, no, no.
	Because of like all the fighting that's been going on.
	And it's like, how can you make mom cry?
	And then you get up there and during church, like you'll read the prayers and you'll lead a sermon and then you'll be so nice to everybody.
	I'm like, I'm nice to everybody anyway.
	Oh, so you said that they were wrong.
	Yeah, I would defend myself for that.
	Okay.
	But you need to be curious.
	Tell me what you mean.
	Tell me what you've seen.
	Tell me what you feel.
	Tell me what you think.
	Otherwise it just comes back in this passive aggressive dad staring.
	Right.
	Well, no, no, no.
	So, um, this was, well, the, um, the, the adultery there, the staring thing also like, oh, just like, uh, so like I was, we were in the car as my wife on our four kids were driving home, like a 10 minute drive.
	And.
	It was like, Oh, dad, dad, why are you so fake when you're there at church?
	And like, you make mom cry at home when you guys are, cause we've been fighting for like this last week and it's just been really terrible.
	And it's like, Oh, but then where's your church?
	Like you wear your collar and all this other stuff.
	And then you put on this face here.
	Then when you go home, I'm like, I try to act the same, whether I'm at church or at home.
	So there's no, like, there's no like fakeness.
	Like, like I'll pray with your mom and we'll pray.
	And like, Oh, bro, bro, you're just telling them that they're wrong.
	They have a criticism and you're like, nope, you're wrong.
	Right.
	Has that solved it?
	You said, has that solved anything?
	Has it solved it?
	Has it solved the problem?
	Of course not.
	No, no, no.
	But like you go to your parents, you go to your parents a year ago and you said to your parents, you were the greatest parents and they're like, no, you're wrong.
	Right.
	Did that solve everything?
	No.
	Um, I told the kids, I was like, hey, look, if you want to talk about it, let's wait till we get home.
	Because there's all four of them in the car.
	No, you said, sorry, you just, I mean, unless I've misunderstood something, they brought up a criticism and you said, no, I'm no different at church.
	It's not hypocritical, blah, blah, blah.
	Right.
	I started to kind of like try to defend myself.
	And then I just listened to them like say everything.
	I said, guys, let's wait till we get home, please.
	Can we just try and Like, let's not make this car ride chaotic.
	Cause it's too much.
	If you guys want to sit down and talk there, because when we get in the car, like then all of a sudden it's just like everything, but it just starts yelling and it's just, it's like super crazy hectic.
	And it's like, at least if we get home, it's like, let's sit down and we can talk.
	And so that's where I was trying to kind of like steer it towards, but like, there wasn't like the very like tepid defensive, like, Hey guys, we shouldn't like, like my wife tried to kind of help.
	Bring things in, but... But don't they have a point that you and your wife are fighting, as you say, for the last week or so?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	So what are you fighting?
	Is this to do with the drive back from your grandfather's funeral?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So did that drive get worse and worse?
	I know we never quite finished the story.
	From the funeral?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yes, it got exponentially worse.
	And what was the basis of the conflict?
	I mean, I know the immediate things that your daughter was screaming and your wife was getting upset and she was yelling at them and you were saying, don't yell.
	And she says, how dare you not support me or whatever it is.
	But what happened from there?
	Just to tie up the loose end, you had asked me about what were some of the small things and the big things that we fought about.
	And that was like one of the big things that we fought about.
	Like those are the significant things.
	The other things are like, you don't spend enough time with me.
	You're not, you don't pay attention, you don't love me.
	Like you haven't mentioned that you think that I'm attractive or that I've lost weight.
	I'm sorry, your wife says, your wife says that you don't love her.
	She thinks that you don't love her.
	Um, or that I'm not really attracted to her.
	Sorry, which one is it?
	It's, uh, that if I truly loved her, I wouldn't treat, I wouldn't have treated her the way that I did.
	In the past, and she's had a real hard time of, like, letting go and forgiving me.
	And she's wanted to forgive me, but she was just, like, waiting for me to, like, blow up and do something bad.
	And this last argument, like, that was it.
	And so it's always- And so what is her complaint about the way you've treated her in the past?
	What's her big complaint or complaints?
	Um, that I'm nasty and vindictive.
	That I'll, um, That I've just broken her, and I'm just manipulating her.
	I mean, these are very, very serious accusations, right?
	Yeah, absolutely.
	And what percentage do you think she has merit in these accusations?
	I think in the past.
	Um...
	Um, I think in the past I've, I've said, yeah, I've, I've definitely said some like really harsh things, like probably eight years ago, like we got into a fight and this is where she talks about like the light switch and turning things on and off.
	Um, I said, uh, I, I said like, you're the worst person I've ever met.
	I also said like, why can't you be a better mother?
	Um, She's had some, she's had quite a few miscarriages.
	She's had 16 to be there.
	16 miscarriages.
	16 miscarriages.
	And, um, uh, many of them I was not there or, uh, was not like, I, I, I missed them for like one other reason or another.
	Um, or I was not really.
	Emotionally supportive the way I should have been.
	Okay, let's go back to you saying to your wife, you're the worst person I've ever met.
	Yeah.
	Why would you say that?
	Well, there's no reason, no excuse.
	No, no, I didn't ask for the excuse, but why did you say that?
	Why would you say that to her?
	We got into a huge fight and I think she like shoved me up against the walls
	She like pushed me.
	She's like yelling at me.
	What do you mean you think?
	I can't remember whether it was like, I said that to her first, like I said that to her and then like we were fighting and then she like pushed me or whether like she pushed me first.
	Like I got really mad and like I was yelling back at her and then like said that to her.
	And what were your kids when this was happening?
	Oh, they were watching this whole stupid thing.
	It was a pattern.
	Super shitty.
	Oh my gosh.
	Yeah.
	So your kids are watching, you're the worst person, manhandling, physical aggression.
	They were watching all of that.
	Yeah.
	Oh brother.
	Yeah.
	That's where all this, uh, my kids are like, my son has PTSD.
	I'm like a hundred percent convinced.
	Like he absolutely has to like see somebody.
	My, uh, my other daughters too.
	So like, when we talk about like trying to save a marriage, it's like, uh, like my wife is, is crying and I'm like crying.
	And it's like, what?
	Yeah.
	And there's, there's so much more Stefan.
	There's so much more.
	It's you talk about a codependent relationship with like my parents.
	It's like, well, here I am.
	And more, you mean like in terms of name calling or ugly language and physical aggression?
	It's like, uh, just like, uh, I've really tried to tamp it down over the years, but it's still, um, it's still been, it's been, it's been bad.
	Just whether it's, it's name calling or like the aggression of stuff like this is stuff that like probably Should have gone to a counselor a long time ago, but every time you think, okay, well, I'm going to do this differently.
	I'm going to try this differently.
	I'm going to not act like this.
	And I've tried to like change my ways and, uh, Okay.
	Sorry.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's a, that's a heck of a burden for the marriage to carry for sure.
	And that, that's like not exactly a mortal wound to a woman's heart, but it's pretty close.
	Right.
	Well, I can understand.
	So when we talk about, like, looking, right, like, I can understand why she would, you know, whether you want to call it a jump to a conclusion or something like that, you know, why she would... No, because it's not an infidelity, it's a distraction.
	I think probably the tough thing, what does your wife think of your parents?
	Well, she's like, I mean, I get reminded all the time of, like, all the red flags that she saw that she chose to ignore, and now she's paying the price for them.
	And I've just been, like, absolutely terrible for her.
	Yeah, you're not answering my question.
	What does your wife think of your parents?
	She thinks they're absolutely terrible.
	Okay, so I want you to get into your wife's perspective here, right?
	Sure.
	And no problem, it's hard to see this kind of stuff, right?
	Sure.
	So she sees you forgiving your parents who did you immeasurable harm, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	Is that fair to say?
	Yeah.
	You don't hold them to account, you don't yell at them, you don't get mad at them, you don't threaten them, you don't cut them off, you don't, like, you forgive your parents, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	That you never chose to have in your life, who did you immeasurable harm.
	Right.
	And did your brother immeasurable harm.
	Mm-hmm.
	So she sees you forgive your parents, but not her.
	I forgive her.
	No. No. You can't possibly say to someone you're the worst person I ever met when
	you have parents like yours. Right. She sees you not getting angry at your
	parents, right? To them. But only to her and the kids.
	Right. And that's the price of not getting angry at your parents.
	The pricey. This is my view.
	Do you mind if I go straight up Christian here?
	Sure.
	Okay.
	Your parents did you great harm, and were very terrible parents in my opinion.
	And I think there's pretty objective reasons for that, which we've sort of talked about.
	Thou shalt not bear false witness, right?
	Don't lie about important matters of morality.
	Thou shalt not bear false witness.
	You've had, what, one conversation with your parents where they totally gaslit you and lied to you at your expense?
	And at the expense of your family, right?
	Is that fair to say?
	Mm-hmm.
	So thou shalt not bear false witness.
	I think you're angry at your parents?
	You were neglected by your parents?
	You saw your parents brutalize your brother for what turned out to be a brain tumor, probably, right?
	Completely unfair.
	Mm-hmm.
	And You're angry at them, but you won't express it to them, because it's very painful, and because it's hard to look at your parents and say, well, they'd rather lie to me and gaslight me than take any responsibility, and that's a complete lack of love, right?
	You're still telling me, at this particular age of your life, when you should know better, that your father loves you, right?
	This is why I was spending time on that issue.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so you're angry at your parents, and rightly so.
	And to me, not expressing anger, and you don't have to express it directly to them, but not acknowledging that anger in your heart, is lying.
	It's bearing false witness.
	Right.
	So then, your wife says, oh, so he forgives people who treat him really badly, and he's really nice to them, but I, who treat him well, get treated like shit by him.
	Right.
	Do you understand how maddening and frustrating that is?
	Oh, absolutely.
	If only I could find a way to do as much harm to him as his parents did, he'd treat me really well.
	Right.
	So, you treat the people who did you great harm very well, and you treat the woman who had 17 miscarriages and gave you four children, often quite badly.
	Right.
	Right, which is why... You don't say to your parents, your really bad parents, you say to your wife, you're the worst person I've ever met.
	No, the worst person you've ever met is your parents.
	Right.
	But they get all sugar and spice and all things nice from you, right?
	Yeah.
	And then because you're humiliated and won't be honest with your parents and you lie to your parents and to yourself about your parents, where does that anger go?
	To my wife.
	That's right, and your kids.
	So from her perspective, you're a coward with your parents and a bully
	with your kids.
	Now, this may be the case with her as well, but I'm talking to you, not her, right?
	So if she was on the call, I may be saying similar things.
	Right, right.
	But our children in particular will not think us any stronger than our weakest position.
	Right.
	And your weakest position, my friend, if I understand this correctly, is with your parents.
	Right.
	So how can they have respect for your authority If you lie about your parents and treat them well without demanding any accountability or honor or truth from them.
	Right, right.
	And if you still claim to be loved by those who gaslight you and lie to you and won't take responsibility and destroyed your brother, by the way, if you claim that's love, But you claim that the wife who married you almost a quarter century ago, well, is just the worst person you've ever met, then you can't be held in high moral esteem.
	And, you know, we don't have to be perfect to be held in high moral esteem, but we can't be this contradictory.
	Does that make sense?
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Sorry, you're messing with your microphone quite a bit.
	I can hear a lot of background noise.
	Oh, sorry.
	I'm trying to figure out... Well, sorry, there's a fox outside.
	I'm outside in my garage and there's a fox outside.
	See?
	That's it!
	You're just talking about a hot woman, aren't you?
	That's it!
	Right there!
	Don't look at that fox twice, she'll turn to stone!
	I'll be forced to tell your wife.
	He looked at a fox!
	A foxy female!
	Anyway, sorry, go on.
	Twice I tell you.
	Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
	My dog is sitting here like keeping watch over and I've got my sniper rifle here in case it gets rally because we have chickens.
	Anyway, um, so, but I don't know what's so like in my mind, I feel like I have dealt with and like, like have them at a distance, but clearly I do not.
	So, other than, like, cutting them out, so what I did, like, I cut my brother out entirely, and that was the most, like, that was the best thing I could have done.
	I feel absolutely terrible.
	So I forgive him, but I also realize, because of his level of toxicity as a person, couldn't have him in my life.
	Right?
	Who's primarily responsible?
	Who's primarily responsible for your brother turning out the way he turned out?
	No, we can say your brother and this and that and the other.
	Guy did have a brain tumor.
	Right.
	So who's primarily responsible?
	My parents.
	Yeah?
	I mean, they raised him.
	Your father fought with him and aggressed against him continually from what, you said, if I remember rightly?
	Right.
	So they kind of broke him.
	Right.
	So how can you ostracize the effect but not the cause?
	Right.
	Well, in return, he's also done that to me, but then, like... No, but your parents have done it anyway, because they won't tell you the truth about the child.
	They won't take responsibility.
	Won't say, here's what we did wrong.
	You're right.
	Let's talk about it more.
	Let's hear more.
	We don't want you to be carrying this burden.
	I mean, you're carrying this burden called a bad childhood, and your parents could lift that burden off you anytime they wanted.
	Anytime they wanted, they could call you up and say, you know what?
	You're not responsible.
	It was our fault.
	We did this wrong.
	We did that wrong.
	We made these choices.
	We made those choices.
	It wasn't your fault.
	You were just a kid, and we're really, really sorry.
	And that would lift a huge burden from you, wouldn't it?
	Yeah.
	But no!
	No, they're just ladening more and more and more burdens on you.
	And you come to them for comfort, for truth.
	For relief, for support, and they just pile more burdens on you, more lies, more gaslighting, more hypocrisy, more blaming you.
	How dare you criticize us?
	We just did the very best we could with the knowledge we had.
	That means that you're unjust for judging us badly.
	I mean, we did the very best we could.
	Right, so they're continuing to gaslight and undermine and harm you.
	Could you hold on for just a second?
	Yeah.
	Just like 10 seconds.
	Sure.
	I'm on the phone with the guy who I told you I was talking to to work through the stuff with.
	I'm a hot woman.
	I'm on the phone with a hot woman.
	So sexy.
	Very British.
	Wait, say that again, Stefan.
	So sexy!
	Very, very British!
	Oops!
	My top fell off!
	Thank you.
	Is that something meme-worthy?
	Something meme-worthy, yeah.
	OnlyStefans is my channel!
	Anyway, sorry.
	We had a fox kill like a dozen of our chickens a couple weeks ago.
	We killed one, but now they're back.
	Surprise, surprise.
	Anyway.
	They do return, like minks.
	Yes. Um, yeah.
	Yeah, with my with my brother, it was it was so easy because it was just so the vitriol was just so blatant.
	Oh, that was your parents, and listen, we've been talking for a long time, so I have to be a bit more efficient.
	So, with your parents, absolutely, it's more subtle, which in many ways makes it more destructive.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	It's, it's death by a thousand paper cuts over an entire lifetime.
	Oh yeah.
	Like give me, give me a fair fight.
	Not like gas in the vents.
	Right.
	Right.
	Yeah, exactly.
	So that's why, uh, yeah, but to like the, the thought of like ostracizing my parents, but it's like, like my mom has just said, no, just, just, I mean, you don't, I don't, it's what you do in your mind that matters.
	It's not what you do on the phone.
	I mean, maybe you talk to them again.
	I don't know.
	Philosophy, morality, it doesn't give you prescriptions, right?
	Right.
	It says, but honesty is the important thing.
	And of course you're angry at your parents.
	Yeah.
	Of course you're angry.
	I mean, in a sense, they robbed you of a brother.
	You were isolated over the course of your childhood.
	You saw them fighting continuously.
	And that's not good.
	Everybody knows that's not good parenting.
	You don't fight in front of your kids.
	I mean, you can have disagreements, but you don't fight, right?
	You certainly don't name-call, and you certainly don't shove each other into walls and say, you're the worst person I've ever met.
	So, I think that your kids have reasonable criticisms of you, as does your wife, and you have reasonable criticisms of your wife, but trading criticisms doesn't achieve anything.
	No, right.
	Right?
	So, you have to model, in my view, you have to model All the stuff you did that was wrong and bad.
	And some of it was based upon, you know, just not recognizing the connection between your anger at your parents and what was going on in your family.
	Because your parents betrayed you, have betrayed you and continue to betray you, in my view, by not taking responsibility for your childhood and blaming you for having any criticism of them.
	It's very petty and very vicious.
	And in particular, because they know how to treat children well, right?
	They're demonstrating every time they're with your kids, oh, we know how to treat children well, look at that, how nice, right?
	That's really cruel.
	They're not saying, man, this is way easier as grandparents.
	Now that we see how well we can deal with children, I feel really ashamed about how I dealt with you and your brother and your sister.
	Are they saying anything like that?
	My dad said, well, you guys really figured out the formula.
	You guys really did a good job.
	My dad's kind of alluded to having done some things wrong.
	But then when you talk to them directly, he wouldn't take any responsibility.
	I'll tell you, if I were to sit there and talk with him directly, he would probably... I would think that he would admit, like, hey, yeah, you know, I really screwed the pooch on this.
	But if it's with him and my mom at the same time... Like, we've had those discussions.
	My dad's like, hey, look, you can't talk to your mom like this.
	Like, you really upset her.
	Like, you need to call and apologize.
	And so, you know, but like if I sit with him separately, like we, we would have these like very candid chats.
	Yeah.
	I mean, maybe he'd say I screwed the pooch in it, but then you'd have to sort of ask why.
	And also why is it your job to bring it up when he's the parent and like all of that?
	I mean, did your, did your father give you useful advice that you follow to this day about life and relationships and work?
	And I mean, were you even parented?
	The best dating advice was don't date a girl with thick ankles.
	Okay, so no, not parented yet.
	Anything else?
	No.
	Okay, so they're not your parents.
	Right.
	They're just bill payers and roommates.
	Right.
	Because if they don't give you moral or helpful or useful, parenting isn't paying the bills and taking you to the dentist every six months.
	Parenting is getting involved in your kid's life and helping shape and guide them.
	Right?
	Spare the rod, spoil the child.
	The rod being, as you know, moral instruction.
	Yeah.
	So where was the moral instruction?
	Yeah, there wasn't really.
	Well, they couldn't give you any because they couldn't model any.
	What are they going to tell you?
	It's important to get along with people now.
	You've got to go back and fight for four more hours with your mom.
	Right, right, right, right.
	Okay, so I don't know what to do with your parents other than I think you need to sort of acknowledge the harm that they did and the fact that you've modelled, you forgive people you're scared of and you bully people who are dependent on you.
	A little bit, right?
	Right.
	So I think it's just beg for forgiveness and don't expect reciprocity.
	Because we don't, you know, like you've done some wrong to your wife, right?
	We acknowledge that, right?
	That's not a big, right?
	And okay, she's done some wrong to you, but trading your fault, my fault.
	You have to model self-ownership.
	And that self-ownership is, here's all the things I'm absolutely wretched about.
	Here's all the things I'm incredibly sorry about.
	Here's all the things I would literally give one of my kidneys, maybe even both of them, to take back.
	I've done wrong.
	And you talk about that with your wife, you guys sit down and talk about it with your kids where the age-appropriate level is there.
	And you don't do it so that your wife then says, well, here's the things I'm sorry about.
	You just keep modeling that.
	You know, you can say, look, I don't appreciate the eyeball policing every time I'm out there, and who I look at and who I don't look at, because these are not the biggest issues facing our family.
	The biggest issues, for me, that I have control over has been my behavior in this family.
	And I've done some things right, I acknowledge that, and you have, and I'm not trying to throw you under the bus here, but the things that I've done wrong, I've really made mistakes.
	And I don't have any excuse, because I knew it was wrong when I did it, I knew it was wrong afterwards.
	I apologize with every fiber of my being for the things that I've done to hurt you.
	And I am now going to work my very, very best to make amends.
	And the apology is just the beginning of the conversation.
	Right.
	And so I tried that months ago and I worked really hard at it.
	And we had this blow up after the funeral and there was fighting, hitting, screaming.
	Oh, you and your wife hitting each other?
	Uh, I was, she was walking away from me.
	I was trying to block her from leaving so that we could talk and she walked up the steps.
	I walked up the stairwell with her.
	I tried to block her from the way she pushed past me.
	We got into the room.
	I tried to hold her.
	And obviously we're both very heated at this point, but I tried to hold her.
	She hit me and slapped me and punched me.
	And then my son saw that and that was just, he was just punching himself in the head.
	It was absolutely the worst thing.
	Right.
	So you know that you're, you led me down a little bit of a garden path here, right?
	Because I was asking you about significant conflicts in your wife.
	You're like, well, maybe once a month, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	Right.
	And it's really only two, two and a half hours, or like William, I mean, two hours, 40 minutes or whatever into the conversation where it's like, you did allude to your son hitting himself earlier, but it's like, yeah, so you're punching and hitting each other, you and your wife, right?
	I was not hitting her.
	I was trying to keep her from... Oh, you were physically blocking her?
	I was blocking her, yes.
	Right.
	So that is a form of physical aggression, because I also assume you're larger than your wife, right?
	I'm not downplaying that as... Okay, so you're blocking your wife's exit and she's hitting you to get away.
	Right.
	Right.
	So when you say you try taking self-ownership and apologizing, it's not something you try.
	It's not like a strategy or a chess move.
	Okay.
	It's a continual process.
	Right, right.
	So for six months, I've been trying to, whenever there's a fight, I wouldn't even say, well, you did this.
	I just say, look, I'm sorry.
	I shouldn't have.
	I'm not even looking for her to apologize.
	I'm just, hey, I really, you know, I should have set a better example.
	I should have led.
	Like, there's no Finger pointing for me.
	Well, well, what about your side of the thing?
	It's just completely.
	I'm just like, put it all on me.
	I'll just take the entire thing.
	And I'll just say, okay, so you're modeling self ownership and your wife is using that to what increase her aggression towards you.
	I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm genuinely curious.
	Because sometimes when we model self-ownership and you say, okay, like, here's all the things I did wrong, the other person gets a certain sense of relief and says, okay, and the things I did, like, they model, they mirror that.
	Does that make sense?
	No, that does not happen.
	Like, well, you know, I shouldn't have done this, and I shouldn't have done that.
	It's like, well, you did this to me, and this is why we did it.
	It's always you, you, you, you, you, you.
	Okay, so is she like your mom?
	Because you said your mom plays the victim too, right?
	She heard that I was saying that she was playing the victim.
	I'm sorry, who heard?
	If my wife heard me saying that I thought she was playing the victim.
	Well, no, my question is, is she a little bit like your mom?
	Because you said that your mom was playing the victim.
	Not whether you would say that to your wife, but is that Somewhat accurate.
	It may not be accurate, I'm just curious.
	When there is a fight, she will say, she will point out all of the things that I did.
	And there's never, and if I point out, if I've tried to point out something, hey, well, you know, I didn't like the way you handled this.
	No, but even if you model, even if you model self-ownership, she won't take self-ownership.
	No.
	Okay, so then that comes back to your parents, right?
	So the reason why you accept her not taking self-ownership is you accept your parents not taking self-ownership.
	Your parents haven't taken any responsibility for any of the wrongs they've done, have they?
	Right.
	Okay, so that's your template.
	Your template is that the people who love you never have to take any responsibility for anything.
	So that's the, again, that's the price.
	And I'm not saying that your marriage is the price, but your wife's attitude is she looks at you and she says, okay, so yeah, his parents have never taken any responsibility and he's great with them.
	He never yells at them.
	So of course I should be like his parents because he treats them the best.
	Right.
	You hold your parents accountable.
	Right.
	Right.
	You hold your parents accountable and then your wife may change.
	But right now, you have this template called, oh yeah, people don't have to, they can treat me like terribly, and I'll never hold them accountable, and I'll treat them very well, and even if I try to hold them accountable and they say no, I'm not, we're not accountable at all, we're not responsible for anything, like your parents said, you're fine, you just keep going, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	If your wife sees you holding your parents accountable, it may give her pause.
	Well, she hasn't said I love you for the last week, and she's ready to leave.
	She's, like, absolutely done.
	She doesn't want to do this anymore.
	But you can't be violent in front of your kids.
	Like, that's an absolute no-no, obviously, right?
	Well, right, right.
	But that's, I mean, it's not even, it's just the entire situation and everything else.
	No, no, but your son is hitting himself, right?
	Correct.
	So you can't be violent in front of your children.
	Right.
	So, I mean, the marriage in its current state is bad for the kids, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	And so if you choose to block your wife leaving and you guys choose to fight with this kind of aggression, both eight years ago and I'm sure in the intervening time, in front of your kids, then you're taking an axe to the base of the marriage and you're harming your children in very serious ways, right?
	Right.
	And so when your wife chooses to hit you in front of the kids, when you choose to block your wife's
	exit in front of the kids, then you are choosing for the marriage to become, I think, isn't it
	fair to say you're just both voluntarily choosing for the marriage to be unsustainable?
	of the world.
	you Because you can't be doing that with your kids.
	And if you can't stop from doing that, and you've been married, did you say 23 years?
	Been together for 23.
	Married for less.
	Okay, so you've been together for almost a quarter century, and this is where you are.
	Which is not good for the kids, right?
	Yeah.
	And these are choices based upon escalation, right?
	If you'd have let your wife go, she might not have hit you.
	If she hadn't hit you, it wouldn't have been as traumatic for your son.
	But you both make these choices, right?
	And they're on the list of things that you can do.
	Right.
	You guys have these things on the list of things that you can do.
	And whenever I see people who have, you know, obviously some pretty bad behavior on the list of things that they can do, then what I do is I look for, okay, where is this allowed in their relationships?
	Right.
	It's precedent, you know, like if you have in your life people who aggress against you, then you can't say, I won't be aggressive, or if you have people in your life who've modeled that, who it's okay, then you can't say no to it.
	Right.
	If you have somebody in your life who's a drug addict, you can't say, well, I'm never going to have anything to do with drugs or drug addicts, because you've already broken that precedent, right?
	So, if your parents don't take responsibility, then it's hard for you to impose responsibility either on yourself or on your wife, because you already say it's fine.
	Love involves not taking any responsibility, because you said, you know, at least as a kid you felt like your father loved you, and so on, right?
	Love means you act out, you sacrifice the other person, you harm the other person, you don't take accountability, you don't take responsibility, and aggression is totally fine.
	I mean, you said your parents are still bickering with each other, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so you're fine to be around and care about and expose your children to people who bickered through your childhood and have bickered through your adulthood.
	Right.
	So how are you going to say no to bickering?
	How are you going to say no to aggression when you have these people in your life?
	It's like, well, I'm not going to have any organized crime in my life.
	My father is Tony Soprano.
	But I'm not going to, it's like, no, well then you have, right?
	So if you're going to have this kind of aggression in your life, if your parents are doing it, it's fine with you.
	How are you going to say no to it with your wife?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And your parents are also going to end up turning you against your kids.
	Like, you know that, right?
	Because if your parents are super nice to your kids, then when your kids get older and they ask you about your parents and you say, well they did this wrong and this wrong and this wrong and this bad and this bad and this bad, what are your kids going to say?
	You're crazy!
	They were great!
	You're wrong!
	Right.
	So this is more sabotage, right?
	Mmm.
	You can't have better relationships than your worst relationship.
	you You can't have higher standards than your lower standards, right?
	Lowest standards.
	I mean, if you're at a garage sale and there's something there for five bucks, you don't pay five hundred dollars for it, do you?
	No.
	That's the lowest price, so that's what you pay.
	And integrity means that You know, the chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and you can't have higher standards in your relationship than the relationship that has the lowest standards.
	And I think that's your parents, isn't it?
	Yeah.
	They can bicker, fight, ignore you, destroy your brother, and they're still welcome in your life.
	And you say, well, there's a distance.
	I don't care.
	The principle doesn't matter.
	Like, saying there's a distance, like, to take an extreme example, if you killed a guy 20 years ago, you're still a murderer.
	Well, it's a lot of distance.
	You know, I haven't killed a guy in 20 years.
	It's like, yeah, but you're still a murderer.
	So you keep them at a distance.
	Well, first of all, that's going to change.
	When they get older, they're going to start hoovering in resources.
	Maybe that comes from your sister, probably not your brother, but they're going to start demanding more and more resources as they age out and need more support and all of that.
	So that's coming, right?
	So the fact that you keep them at arm's length when they're still relatively healthy is one thing.
	Because I'm at the age now, I think I'm a little older than you, where, you know, decaying parents are like dominant in a lot of people's lives.
	So yeah, so that's coming, and that's why you need to have the boundaries right now.
	But yeah, I mean, so that would be my, like, why is that on the table as things to do?
	Did your parents ever, were they ever violent with each other in these kinds of ways?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so your parents were physically aggressive, and they're still part of your life, and they're welcome in your life, and they don't have to take responsibility.
	So how on earth are you going to stop the behavior if you condone it in your parents?
	Right, right.
	And if you don't accept it in your parents, it gets off the table for you.
	Now, what happens with your wife, I don't know.
	But you just have to have an absolute standard.
	Like, no, physical aggression is really bad.
	People who do it are really destructive.
	My parents have done it, I assume, for four plus decades, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So it's unacceptable.
	And it can't be undone and it can't be fixed.
	And you don't want to see it and you don't want to be around it and you will not have it as a standard.
	Right.
	Right.
	I mean, that's why Jesus came.
	I come to set parents against children, fathers against sons.
	Because there's a new standard which people have to rise to.
	And the new standard is no physical aggression, no violence, no abuse.
	And the people rise to it or they don't.
	And everyone in my life follows that.
	And there's nobody in my life who doesn't.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	There's nobody in my life who yells at their kids.
	There's nobody in my life who is aggressive in that kind of way.
	Yeah.
	Because that's off the table.
	That's a universal standard.
	Right.
	So I hope this makes some kind of sense.
	I'm sure it does.
	I'm a very smart guy and all of that, but I hope that this follows or tracks for you.
	It does.
	I'm just, I don't know what to do about my marriage right now.
	I don't either.
	I mean, you know, I mean, anchor management courses would be great and so on, but I don't know.
	I mean, there's a lot of scarring on the hull, right?
	For sure.
	Well, I mean, like, I can forgive, right?
	Like me, I have a little bit more of a light switch, right?
	I'm like, okay, look, forgive us our trespasses.
	No, no, stop forgiving!
	Stop forgiving where it's not earned!
	No, no, I mean like between my wife and I. No, no, I'm talking about you and your parents, because your forgiveness of your parents where they have not earned it is the problem.
	It's the whole thing I've been hammering at for three hours almost.
	Right, right.
	Like, I can... It would be hard for me, but I feel like I could...
	Keep them far enough away where I would be alright with it.
	No, no, it's... Oh my god, it's not how far they are away, and it's not how often you talk to them, it's what... For the tenth time, it's what goes on in your mind.
	Is it absolutely unacceptable what they did, and what they continue to do with their aggression?
	And their violence in their marriage?
	Yes.
	Is it absolutely unacceptable?
	Then don't have that shit around your kids.
	Right.
	And don't have it around you, and don't have it around your marriage.
	Right, which is why I'm saying I can't physically have them be around.
	Okay, so if that's absolutely unacceptable, then you've started the path of it being unacceptable to you, because now you have a universal standard called, I don't do that, I don't countenance, I don't allow it, I don't accept it, no matter what.
	Right.
	And then you will have the resolution to not do it yourself.
	But if you have a big gaping hole called, it's fine if my parents do it, you can't stop the behavior in yourself.
	You can't.
	How could you?
	Because if it's unacceptable for you to do, how can it be acceptable for your parents to never stop and still continue to do it?
	Right?
	Right.
	Well, my wife has the exact same problem on her side, but we're both kind of... I'm sure you do, and you have to have that as an absolute rule.
	It is unacceptable to use aggression, abuse, and violence in a relationship.
	And if people do it, it's unacceptable.
	Again, I can't tell you what to do.
	I just say I wouldn't have people like that around.
	It's gross.
	It's vile, and I certainly don't want my children exposed to it.
	I wouldn't.
	I just wouldn't.
	I can't honestly tell you.
	It's probably been about 30 years since I spent time with a Bickerton couple.
	I just don't do it.
	I don't want my daughter to see it.
	I don't want that around.
	I have no respect for it.
	I think it's contemptible.
	So it's just got to be off the table.
	Like, no, I don't live like that.
	It's disrespectful to the glory of our souls.
	It's disrespectful to the capacity of our minds.
	It's petty.
	It's mean.
	It's vicious.
	It's nasty.
	And you got to have an absolute line, a big fiery line saying, thou shalt not pass.
	None shall pass.
	It doesn't.
	It's never acceptable.
	And whoever gets caught up in that, it's like, well, too bad.
	You should have been better.
	And you work on that with your parents, you'd be amazed when that behavior becomes truly unacceptable.
	Even for your parents, you'd be amazed at what changes in your heart.
	Then it becomes like bank robbery.
	Right?
	If you forget your bank card, you don't just say, well, I'll go rob a bank.
	It's just not on the deal.
	You go back and get your bank card.
	Like, it's not like you don't sit there at the bank, oh, maybe, maybe, right?
	You don't.
	You're just not tempted, right?
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	It's an absolute standard, so its temptation is off the table.
	So, anyway, I hope that makes sense.
	It does, I'm just... So, I see what you're... So, I'm trying to project in the future.
	Let's just say, I de-foo, right?
	Just to...
	Well, I don't look at it that way.
	The way I look at it is you have an absolute standard and you say to your parents, listen, you guys have been bickering and violent my whole life.
	Will you make a commitment to deal with this, to get therapy, to couples therapy, anger management?
	Like I cannot have this in my life ever.
	It's infecting my marriage.
	Like what you do, like you wouldn't have people coughing up blood on your children, would you?
	So you say to your parents, I can't have this in my life.
	I can't have this fighting.
	I can't have this bickering.
	I can't have this violence.
	So I really, really hope that you guys deal with it, but I'm not having it around.
	Now, if they say, well, you know, we'd rather fight with each other and poison your marriage, then it's like, okay, I'm sorry.
	It's not just, oh, separate from people, right?
	It's you have standards.
	And if people rise to meet those standards, fantastic.
	And if they don't rise to meet those standards, that's a shame, but you don't just, you know what I mean?
	It's not just separation, if that makes sense.
	Right.
	I can't watch you guys fight.
	It's been 45 years.
	I can't watch you fight anymore.
	I'm done.
	You fix it or I'm just not seeing it anymore.
	I'm not watching it and I'm not having it get in my head.
	It's infecting my marriage.
	And it is, right?
	Yeah.
	And your wife's parents who fight and do your wife's parents use violence as well?
	They did.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so she grew up with that.
	Okay, so that's infecting your marriage, too.
	And you guys realize that you're puppets of your parents, because of the lack of clear standards of acceptable and unacceptable behavior.
	So you guys are continuing your parents' battles.
	And your kids will continue it, too, if you don't fix it.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Now, as far as what you do tomorrow with your marriage, I'm not that guy, right?
	Right?
	You called me last year.
	I mean, I guess it took for six months or so, then it didn't.
	But I can't tell you what to do with your marriage tomorrow because I'm a prevention, not a cure guy, right?
	Right.
	But I think the thing that's most affecting your marriage is your parents.
	Right.
	And the lowering of the standards.
	It's the crack through which bad behavior gets through.
	With that understanding, I hope that you can forgive yourself a little.
	And your wife, too.
	Well, I'm never short on forgiveness, or at least I'd like to think that I'm not.
	What happened to make a connection before.
	Yeah we talked about it the last phone call but it seemed to me.
	It's like...
	That seemed to be a piece of it, like they weren't necessarily helping, but it seemed more like, for me, I needed to take more responsibility in the lead as the husband and father.
	Oh, so we talked about the toxicity of your parents last time, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, so hopefully, given that you didn't take my advice last time, maybe you'll take it now.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	All right, bro.
	It's been almost three hours, so I'm going to wind things down, but you know, sometimes it takes a couple of runs at things, right?
	If I gave you this advice last time and it didn't particularly take, maybe it'll take now.
	And again, maybe it's not the right advice for you, but I certainly think that anger management would be a good thing to at least stop the behaviors immediately.
	But I think real down, down at the root, I think is the, is the parental, parental stuff.
	Right.
	And it would therapy for kids at this age.
	I couldn't tell you.
	I'm not a therapist and I don't have any experience or knowledge on that.
	But if you talk to a therapist, I'm sure a therapist will help.
	But I certainly think that the best thing for your kids would be vastly improved behavior, which maybe my advice will help with.
	But yeah, I couldn't tell you with that answer.
	No, Stefan.
	I'll help wrap this up for you.
	What really clicked for me was when I Didn't talk to my brother anymore that really changed a lot of things in my life So I can only imagine that uh, and I I know you said you don't necessarily have to like just completely cut them out You can say like hey, these are the standards because it's poisoning poisoning my marriage but uh, I can um, I can see how that would affect how my wife and I would both act if we were to uh, tell the people that were the cause of this that uh Get the help change or like hey, sorry, we can't
	in the same relationship together.
	And I think that would be a start for a big change.
	So thank you so much for taking the last three hours and helping me with all this.
	You're very welcome, and I hope you'll keep me posted about how it's going.
	Big hug to your wife, big hug to you, big hug to your kids, and I certainly wish you the very best, and I absolutely admire where your heart is heading, and thank you for the call tonight.
	Thank you, Stefan.
	Thank you for the call.
	God bless you.
	I really appreciate it.
	You're welcome.
	Thanks, man.

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