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June 26, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:03:16
Murderous Rage?!? Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Hi, this is Stephen Molyneux.
It's a great call-in coming up, and I wanted to read the message that I got.
We kind of dove into the conversation at breakneck speed, so this is the message that I got.
The topic is, I have depression.
and neurasthenia.
I'm diagnosed with depression and neurasthenia and it's been like that for at least ten years, four years with official diagnosis.
I feel tired most of the time and I'm afraid of doing things because my energy recovers extremely slowly and I need that energy to function in my everyday life.
I don't work and I feel like eight-hour work days would make my life so miserable that I wouldn't see a point in living anymore because I'm so tired.
I've had moments in my life where I'm just so tired that I think, I don't want to live anymore, but I also don't want to die.
It's been a little better in the recent months, but not gone.
The doctors haven't been much help, so I'm turning to you with my problem.
How can I get rid of my neurasthenia and function like everybody else?
So, appreciate the honesty and directness of the call.
We really did jump in at the deep end, so here we go.
Well, gosh, of course, I'm sorry to hear about all of this that's going on.
Obviously, I can't do you much in terms of physical health, but if there's anything else that I can help you with in terms of self-knowledge or something like that, I'm obviously thrilled to help and I have massive sympathies for what's going on.
So, do you want to start with your childhood and see what we can take from there?
Oh no.
Yes, yes.
I'm afraid so.
This is where we must begin, I think, with something this deep-rooted.
Yeah.
Well, I know my childhood wasn't that great.
It's better than most people, but I grew up in a very unstable and toxic household.
It was emotionally abusive and very gaslighting.
Constantly bickering parents and stuff like that.
So I'm not even sure what more to talk about that.
Why do you say that's better than most?
I'm not sure what that would mean.
Because I know that a lot of people have had, like, physically abusive parents and the parents that are even more emotionally abusive.
Sorry, why would that matter relative to your emotional experience as a child?
Like, we don't have these comparisons as children, right?
Well, yeah, bad is bad, but I don't want to belittle anyone else's experience by saying, oh, mine was so terrible.
But why would your genuine experience, what would it have to do with anyone else's?
I mean, you could have had the second best childhood in the world, let's imagine, right?
And there would still be challenges and so on involved.
And even people who have great childhoods have trauma.
Or have difficulties, because they have to grow up in a world full of people who've had terrible childhoods.
There aren't any great childhoods, I think, at the moment.
I mean, you can have great childhoods, but that makes it difficult for you in life as a whole, right?
The first thing you do is sort of minimize your own suffering.
When you emailed me, because you say, Steph, I'm suffering, right?
Yeah.
These may not be unrelated.
It's definitely not unrelated and I found that out recently, like in the last few months.
Because what I emailed you about was that I have neurasthenia.
That means chronic exhaustion or chronic tiredness.
I'm tired all the time.
That's basically what that means.
And it was like that for a long, long time.
I remember in middle school, I think, I would come home and go straight to sleep.
And even then, when I was studying, I fell asleep on the table.
And I only found out later that it's not normal to do that, actually.
Were you an only child?
Yes, I was an only child.
So it's continued like that.
In the recent years, I went to university, but I had a block study, so I didn't have to go and be Present.
I had a lot of work to do on my own and it went a little better.
But now when I got a partner and I started living with him and moved out actually, Then it like skyrocketed.
So I always knew that my family home was toxic, but I didn't know it had such a large impact on me.
Like being there just sucked out the energy from me.
But yeah, I am still not like fully healed.
Now, I assume, of course, right?
I mean, you've had this, you said, since middle school, and you've had the, you said the last 10 years have been fairly bad.
Obviously, you've taken every medical intervention or test or whatever, known to man, right?
And is it the case that they can't find much, if anything, that might help?
Actually, I've only talked to psychiatrists and psychologists, and only recently I did a sleep study, but I don't have the results yet because no one ever told me.
The doctors didn't tell me that, oh, you should do a sleep study or check if Something's wrong with your brain or something.
I don't know.
I gave blood tests and they were, like, always fine.
So, yeah.
I haven't done anything known to them.
Sorry, what about as a kid?
Did you get taken to doctors for check-ups?
No.
Like, working?
No, because in my parents' eyes it was normal to sleep that much and be tired.
I say I found out that sleeping so much and like falling asleep on your table
isn't normal when I went to high school I think.
In the later years of high school, I talked to my psychologist and just mentored him.
And she said, that's not normal.
She explained to me that this isn't what life's supposed to be like.
Sorry, are you in your twenties at the moment or your thirties?
I'm sorry, I can't hear you.
Sorry, are you in your 20s or your 30s at the moment?
I'm 24.
24, okay.
So, basically, since you were like 10 or so, did you have a time or did you have a thought or an experience where you had more energy as a kid?
I can't hear you anymore, again.
Oh, is that right?
Okay.
I wonder what that is.
That's strange.
All right, hold on a sec here.
Now I can.
Yeah, all right.
Sorry, just let me know.
Are we getting anything at all?
Hear me again?
Yeah, I can hear you.
OK, good, good.
Not sure why.
Exciting, exciting.
All right.
So basically, do you have a time in childhood when you remember having more energy?
Yeah, I know.
After kindergarten or preschool, I think, like the first, second, third, fourth grade, I would go to... I would study and then go and play outside.
Like, I had energy for that.
I know that.
That's what I remember.
But after that, I'm not sure.
So there was definitely, I think there was a time where I had more energy, but I don't know why it changed suddenly.
There's nothing sort of big and dramatic that would be obvious that would say, here's what went wrong, right?
Yeah, probably.
Okay.
And tell me a little bit about what happened as a kid in terms of being disciplined, or you said there's sort of verbal abuse, so what kind of stuff happened with you as a kid in that regard?
That's a great question, because I tend to forget these things.
There was a lot of yelling, I know that.
I can't recall specific things, but I know there was a lot of yelling, then sometimes name-calling, passive-aggressive comments, maybe.
My mom especially was the type to suddenly just say something mean.
So I am really sensitive to people's emotions even now.
So I remember that, but I definitely was disciplined physically too, but not a lot.
But a few times is also really bad and it stays with you.
But other than that, I can't recall.
The thing with the emotional abuse is that I can't really put a finger on it, what it is with my mother.
I don't recall emotional abuse from my father that much.
He was just distant.
But with my mother, it was always like she would say something or do something mean.
And then I would be upset with her and maybe talk bad things about her with my friends or something.
And when I got home and she was friendly again and everything, I would feel so guilty that I talked bad about her because she's actually not a bad person.
So that's the pattern I remember.
But other than that...
All right.
No, no, it's great.
I appreciate that.
Now, I just, I need specifics.
Okay.
Specifics.
So you have a lot of things that you can't really remember, right?
Yeah.
I remember a few, like the physical disciplining.
Okay.
So let's talk about the physical discipline, as you call it.
I remember one time when it was summer and school was beginning, so we packed the textbooks and everything into papers.
So I don't remember what happened, but she slapped me across the face.
And of course I started crying and I was sad and it hurt and I stood up and I think she like realized it was over the line and then like opened her arms to hug me and I remember in that moment I thought that okay I'm not actually afraid of her but I want to think that I want her to think that I am so she would like apologize more or something like that so I took a step back
And then she just let her hands down.
Her reaction was basically like, fine, suit yourself.
I remember that very well.
So she hit you and then she wanted to comfort you, but you rejected her comfort because you wanted her to know how upset you were?
Yeah, I wanted her to offer me a security feeling again, because she hit me.
Sorry, wasn't she trying to do that, by giving you the hug after she hit you?
Hugging someone because it's almost mandatory after a situation like this, and hugging someone because you're really sorry I do different things, I saw that she wasn't actually sorry.
And how did you know that she wasn't sorry?
Her face was still like, like I said, come here.
Then if you, if you want to come here, then I will give you a hug.
I'm sorry.
Can I just ask you for a favor?
You keep touching your microphone.
Oh, I'm sorry.
No, that's fine.
Just it puts a rumble.
That's kind of distracting.
Okay.
Sorry.
Sorry.
That's fine.
Okay.
And then of course, I guess your theory that she wasn't really sorry was reinforced by the fact that.
When you didn't want to accept her immediate comfort, she just said, okay, fine, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she withdrew any sort of comfort, right?
Yeah.
But I think I still like went for a hug then and she still hugged me, but it wasn't like, I don't know, satisfying, I guess.
It wasn't like comfort.
It didn't comfort me.
I think I understand and I certainly sympathise.
What happened with the other kinds of verbal abuse?
What was said about this?
What was said to you?
what kind of language was used?
Like yelling between my mother and father themselves and then
my mother also yelled at me.
uhhhhhh.
But I really can't recall the exact words or things she said.
I know she did some name calling because I literally wrote down them because I knew from a very early age that my mind tends to block out specific moments.
So I had to, like, write them down so I could, like, confront her with them and, like, try to fix it.
But she only laughed at that.
Oh, she laughed at your attempts.
And when did you write them down?
When I was, like, ten, maybe?
Something like that.
Right.
OK.
Sorry, go ahead.
No, it's just that from the emotional abuse I remember that it actually it was recently when I opened my phone and I had some old recordings and I remembered that when I was a few years back I heard my mother like every time I heard that she starts yelling I would start recording because I didn't remember the specifics.
I wanted to be able to remember so I could fix it, because every time I said to my mom that something is wrong, she would ask, okay, what?
And I couldn't answer that.
When I listened to the recording, she was like, arguing something about something with my father and my little sister who's like two or three at the time was like asking like where are we going where are we going like they were about to go somewhere outside or something and my mother just like snapped at her like you'll see then like so mean and so angry and I just like
I cried so much when I heard that, because it hurt me so much, like, to my core, because it felt so similar.
Sorry, your sister, I thought you were an only child.
Did I miss that?
Uh, yeah, I was an only child, but, uh, for a very long time, like, uh, most of my childhood, like until 12, I think.
And, uh, then, uh, when I was 12, my sister was born, my little sister.
Now with the names were names used against you, but you called names.
Yeah, it's, it's, uh, in Estonian.
So, but if I translate it, it's basically blind chicken.
So people who are Estonian and are listening to the podcast sometime later, they know what I mean.
But yeah, this was one and it wasn't like playful, but it was like mean and these kinds of like insults.
And have you given insults like stupid or worthless or useless or lazy or selfish or anything like that?
Yeah, not stupid.
I don't think I got that.
But lazy, definitely, yeah.
And selfish, I also think I got.
But yeah, lazy, I remember I got that, like, very much.
I don't think it was just for my mother, but yeah.
And did that happen in response to something you did, or was that just whenever your parents were upset?
Or, you know, did you have to do something first, or did they just say...?
I think I had to, like, not do something, basically.
Like, when they ask for help and I didn't want to do that, then they would call me lazy, or if I didn't want to do my homework at the moment, or something like that.
So, it wasn't, like, always out of the blue, I think.
But, yeah.
Got it, got it.
Okay.
And how often would these fights or conflicts, or how often would this mean this happened?
I think every day.
I truly think that they would happen in some form every day.
I started calling them good periods of my mom because I remember when she didn't lose her child.
She quit her job, and then she was home for a long time.
Then, after some time, she was very friendly and very warm, so I called that a good time.
So, there would be a few days where she would be good, so to say.
Okay.
So, I mean, it was pretty continual.
Abuse or hostility towards you, right?
Or contempt.
I guess contempt is probably a better word.
Yeah, I think that's a better word for it.
Sorry, go ahead.
You were about to say?
Yeah, that I didn't have rights that much.
I Didn't get any, like, responsibility for myself, I think.
Like, I wasn't allowed to go to my friends' houses or go outside after school with my friends that much or things like that.
I remember that.
Right.
And did your friends, I guess your friends didn't come over either, right, to your house?
Yeah.
Yeah, they didn't.
Right.
Okay.
So did you have any friends, or did you make any friends at school?
Yeah, I had a few.
And through like preschool, middle school, I had quite a few.
We had a friend group and I wasn't lonely or anything.
And the school was like the best part of my day.
So I really liked going to school.
Of course, I didn't like getting up in the morning, but my friends were at school and this was the time I felt the best.
But in high school, when everyone went their own ways, I still had a few friends.
So I never was truly alone, I guess.
Just in the recent years, when the grown-up things are coming in between and everyone is busy, then I felt a little lonely.
But yeah, in the middle school, I had friends.
And did you play any sports?
No, but I did go to an acting class.
I think it was like a little, in my school, there was like an acting class or like after.
In fact, theater kids.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And I was part of that and it was the, it was the most fun thing I've ever done because the people were amazing and yeah, it was so funny being there.
So yeah, I did that.
And what about dating in your teens?
Yeah, I did date.
I think I was about 14 and 15.
When I was 14, I got into a relationship with an 18 year old man, I guess you have to say, and that didn't go very well.
It was Not a long distance, but we still lived in different cities.
How did you meet him?
It was after school.
There was some kind of event in the school building and we met there through mutual friends.
What the hell were you doing dating an adult at 14?
You're doing this thing to me like I don't have a 15-year-old daughter, and you're like, oh yeah, well you know, of course I had this relationship, but the only issue was that it was slightly long distance.
I'm like, that's not the only issue!
That wasn't the only issue, but unfortunately at the time it was like...
I couldn't even think that something was wrong.
He pursued you, I assume, right?
I guess.
Not that much.
I mean, we communicated back and forth a lot of times, but if I think back then, yeah, I think he was a little bit more...
Yeah, he pursued me a little more than I did him, I guess.
But I really liked him.
Did the community know?
Didn't friends, parents, like, did anybody know?
Yeah, everyone knew.
So your parents knew?
No one even better than I. So your parents knew as well?
Yeah, I invited him.
I'm sorry, you just cut out for a second there.
You invited him.
Yeah, I invited him over sometimes, I think.
Maybe I didn't, but I know that my mother met him definitely, my father too, because he and two of his friends, that I also was friends with, made a surprise birthday party for me.
I'm sorry, do you have any feelings about this?
You're just talking to me like you're reading off a laundry list.
Like, yes, well, you know, I was 14, he was an adult.
It was so long ago.
Like, I don't feel used or anything.
I just think it's, like, weird that maybe no one but an I I don't know how to feel about it.
I don't, I'm not resentful or anything.
I don't carry any trauma.
I don't think so.
At least from not that age difference.
Okay.
Well, um, sorry.
What was it?
A sexual relationship as well?
Uh, no.
Uh, there was touching and this kind of stuff, but it never went that far because even in my younger, younger teenage mind, I was like, okay.
be too far. So yeah, I was the one that would align there.
But yeah, we were in a relationship like half a year and then he died.
Sorry, I did the laughing thing.
But yeah, I just don't know how to react to that because everyone always is like, oh no, you poor thing.
And I don't really think I... Okay, so was he died because he was killed by your father?
Because that would be my... No, just kidding.
So what happened?
How did he die?
I dumped him through text and he went missing.
He just walked off at one point and then they found him drowned.
So it was like a week later after I dumped him.
But to be honest, I didn't feel much about his death.
Sorry, I don't want to put connections here that aren't there.
But is it your perception that you broke up with him and he killed himself?
It might be a possibility, but I'm not sure.
I mean, it's pretty close together, isn't it?
Yeah, it is close together, but I also know that he couldn't swim, so he also just might... Well, then just stay away from the water!
I mean, there's lots of people who can't swim and, you know, I can't fly a plane, so I don't fly planes.
Yeah, well, he might have, but yeah, it's actually, if I think about it, then...
The thing is that he always, like, he didn't threaten to kill himself, but he always, like, said things.
Oh, that in a few years when you're 18, then I will come to your birthday and in two days I will die.
And I will say, no, I won't let you.
What do you mean?
And he said, no, it would be already be done or something.
What?
What?
Sorry.
You keep dropping these things like they make sense.
I don't know what that means.
I'm sorry.
You do keep touching something with the microphone.
It keeps going in my ear.
I'm sorry.
Are you saying that when you were dating him, he would say, well, you turn 18, I'll come to your birthday party and then I'll be dead two days later?
Basically.
Yeah.
I don't know what that is.
I mean, why would, why would he say that?
What is this?
I don't know.
I'm going to kill myself when I'm 22 and you're 18 or like, I don't know what this means.
I don't know what that meant.
He would just say these things and I didn't ask what it meant because in my young mind I was like, oh no, I need to help him.
I need to prevent that.
I can't lose him.
So I didn't ask what it meant, but he always told me he can see light.
Entity?
Like something supernatural.
So I was, I don't know.
It was not a good relationship.
He was very manipulative, I think.
So what else, what else happened in the relationship that was negative?
He touched me and I wasn't really for it, but I came around.
Let's just say that.
So do you mean like passionately?
That sort of way?
Uh, yeah, like in a sexual way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Yeah.
Uh, that was something then I don't really recall much else.
I know that, uh, he, uh, manipulated me because I was 14, 15 and he was 18.
So.
18, 19, right?
If you're going to give you a year, you have to give him a year, right?
Yeah.
And how was he manipulative?
He always told me that, well, he can see entities and supernatural things, and he knows when things are going to happen.
That was one thing.
And the other thing was that he knows human behavior.
He's read a psychology book, and he's really into psychology, so he knows when I want something, or what I want, or what I'm thinking, and things like that.
And what do you mean by entities?
The ghosts and devils?
The way he explained it was like that everything, living or not living, has a soul, I think.
I don't know.
It was weird.
It was insane.
Yeah.
No, no, I mean, I don't, I don't want to laugh about this cause it's pretty serious stuff.
Yeah, I know.
Was he schizophrenic?
Did he have visions?
Did like, I, I don't, it's hard to say of course, so many years later, but like it's not that many years, 10 years since you, since you met him.
But was he like crazy?
Uh, his behavior wasn't crazy, but, uh, yeah.
Unless it was suicide, which is pretty dysfunctional.
Well, yeah.
But I can't recall if the birthday testing was a vision that he had, or if it was something just he told me.
But he was wrong, because he said he's going to die two days after your 18th birthday, and he may have killed himself when you were 15, right?
So he was wrong.
No, he was wrong with very many things and I realized that like halfway into our relationships that no, he doesn't know that much about human behavior and stuff.
So what was it that had you break up with him?
I grew like very distant from him because he worked during summer and I couldn't like I didn't get to communicate with him that much.
And, uh, I didn't like have that deep feelings for him anymore.
I think it was something like that.
The long distance killed the relationship for me, I think.
So, okay.
And so it wasn't like his family knew your family or anybody.
If he was so long distance, what was he doing at your school function?
Mutual friends, like I don't know how they met him.
But I mean, if mutual friends say, why don't you come to a high school full of kids for some social engagement?
I'd be like, why am I going to a high school for the kids?
I will go to high school for the junior high.
Like, what's he doing at the high school?
Unless I guess he liked younger girls, right?
Uh, he was actually performing like, uh, the mutual friends had a performance and he was like a part of it.
Okay.
It was something like that.
The event was multiple performances and my friend group was like one of them.
So he was there.
Okay.
So he had like a purpose to be there, not just to lurk around.
Okay.
So you go out with him for six months.
It's kind of distant.
He's a bit creepy and weird.
If I, if I understand it correctly.
And then you, you, you say you text him and you say, I don't want to go out anymore.
Is that right?
Yeah.
I want to break up and please don't contact me anymore.
I'm not changing my decision.
Right.
Was that the first time you had said, I want to end it?
Or was it a slower kind of breakup?
Or had you broken up and made up before?
No, it was the first time.
And I think for him, it like came out of the blue.
Yeah.
I guess he thinks everything is fine because he's told him everything was fine.
Got it.
Those helpful entities.
Oh, that's great.
Okay.
So he had a death sighed to him, right?
Like talking about dying after your 18th birthday.
Yeah, he was like, I think he, it's safe to say that he was actually depressed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's probably fair, fair to say.
Yeah.
So death and I think you can call it suicide ideation.
Yeah.
The effects of death, right?
The death impulse, the thanatos, right?
Okay.
Yeah.
So I think he, he was like into that.
And your parents met him, you said, right?
Yes, and I even invited him to my grandparents' house, like my grandma's house in the countryside, and spent like a week with him there.
So he was like living for a week with me and my mom.
Oh, so he spent a week at your grandparents' with you?
Yeah, me, my grandmother, grandma's partner, and my mom were there.
Okay, so your mom had a real chance to evaluate this guy, right?
Yes.
She really liked him.
Sorry, go ahead.
She really liked him.
God, these are terrible people.
Yes, I know.
Sorry.
Well, but the funny thing is, like, you have no emotion about any of this.
Yes.
So I don't know how to help people who don't have any emotions, because then we're just like, dum-de-dum, this bad thing happened, and then this guy statutorily molested me because I was 14 and he was an adult, and then, you know, he probably killed himself, and da-da-da, my parents are terrible people, you know, like, I don't know, if there's no emotional connection, I'm not sure what we're doing here, other than avoiding your life.
Yeah.
There might be a few...
You feel nothing, really, about any of this?
I think we're barking up the wrong tree, to be honest, because the topic with my ex-boyfriend and his death has always been a colder one for me.
When it just happened, it was like, affected me, but now I don't think it's that much.
But at the moment, my life has other things, I think.
You said that you've been really tired for 10 years in your email, right?
Yes.
Okay.
You're 24.
Yes.
When did you start dating your boyfriend?
And I was fourteen.
Well, how many years ago?
Ten.
I mean, maybe it's a coincidence, maybe.
But, you know, everyone says, oh, Steph, I know you've done this thousands of times really, really well, but you're probably wrong about this one.
Oh, yeah.
I mean, I'm not going wild here, right?
I'm not just making things up or stabbing randomly.
Yeah.
Well, I've always thought that my mother is the main reason I'm tired, like dealing with her emotions is too demanding.
And so I was barking maybe at the wrong tree.
So, okay.
So you're calling me because you think I have some skill or expertise in this area of connections and emotions and so on, right?
Yeah, I want another perspective.
Just for the purposes of this call though, I think you need to surrender a little bit to the expertise, right?
Like, if I go to the dentist, I don't argue with my dentist, right?
Yeah, that's not a good thing to do.
So, you may be expending a lot of effort in self-control, as opposed to surrendering to something or someone else.
Like, for me, I surrendered to philosophy, and of course my wife has great authority with me, and so life's just easier, right?
Okay.
And so, this is not foundationally about your ex-boyfriend, who was A creep.
And a weirdo.
And possibly insane.
And, as you say, depressed and, you know, it seems almost for certain that he killed himself.
To me.
I don't know.
I don't know.
And, you know, a guy who's fondling, an adult male who's fondling the genitals of a 14-year-old girl, the fact that he killed himself, I don't view as anything negative to the universe whatsoever.
Yeah.
I'm just telling you straight up, as a human being and as a father in particular, it's not quite good riddance, but it's certainly not like, oh dear, oh dear.
Yeah.
I mean, the thing is that, um, this like sexual molesting, uh, wasn't first in my life.
So maybe that's why I don't, because I kind of enjoyed it.
Maybe.
Uh, that doesn't, but that doesn't matter.
Yeah.
But, uh, I had like, um, children like candy too.
That doesn't mean that it's good for them.
Right.
Yeah.
So what happened before with regards to this?
This topic, yeah.
When I was very little, my mother would drop me off at my grandma's house in the summer and then I didn't realize anything.
I was just there with my cousin and we were friends and had a lot of fun.
But my grandma's partner I think I can safely say that he's a pedophile because he said really weird things to me, also commented that I am sexy to a child that's not even 10.
I can't remember how old I was.
Then he would slap my ass and to the point where I like, had to turn to face him while, like, going past him.
But his hands were, like, so long that he would still slap me.
So I felt, like, really unsafe.
Well, that's more than a feeling.
You were really unsafe.
Yeah, yeah.
You were in grave, grave danger.
Yeah.
So, yeah.
And did your grandmother ever know about this?
I don't know, because the slapping, I think my grandmother saw it, because she did it publicly.
Not publicly outside, but in the house, in the kitchen.
So he would do it when she was around?
Yeah, and I know it because my mother once saw it and she flipped out and intervened.
And actually, I remember the exact feeling I had.
It was a surprise.
Oh, was she doing something helpful?
Yeah, that she was actually protecting me.
I was so surprised that she was actually protecting me.
So yeah, that was it.
But I remember one time that I was in a room with him and sitting on the bed.
And for some reason the lights were off, but you could see a little light from the corridor.
And he said, I can't even remember what he was telling me, but I think he said he loves me and something.
And while other times I didn't even send Like, oh no, this is wrong or something.
I was just uncomfortable.
Then this was the moment where every cell in my body wanted to run from that room.
But since he was an adult and nothing had happened, I Just sat there.
So luckily, in like a few minutes, my grandma came into the room and asked like innocently, Oh, what are you doing here?
Like, what are you doing to doing here?
And the partner said that, Oh, we just are having our own conversations.
And I just like quickly stood up and walked to my grandma and then passed her to like exit the room.
So I've always carried that, I've always remembered that, even if other things are slowly coming back to me.
And that's how I know that this is not a good person.
So yeah, that was scary.
So he was like, I love you and all of that, and that's when you really freaked out, right?
Actually even not that he loved me, but he was like telling me it in a way that he wanted a response.
He wanted me to respond to him, oh I love you too or something.
I remember one time he was crying and said that he loved me.
So he was like guilting me to saying that I love him too.
But I didn't, I said like oh yeah I have like three little love eggs for you or something like that.
Like a child mind.
I didn't want him to cry, but I didn't want to tell him that I love him, because I didn't.
Wow, okay.
Well, of course.
Yeah, so that's what I remember about that at the moment.
Yeah, there were some other things, but the bottom line is that it wasn't safe at home, it wasn't actually safe in my grandma's house.
But at least in my grandma's house, no one abused me emotionally, and I had my best friend with me there.
Wow.
And this was your mother's mother?
Yes.
And after this...
all of this, and after your mother knew about all of this, did you still keep going to your grandmother's house?
Yes.
So your mother was serving you up?
Did she know he was creepy or evil?
Like I said, she saw the slapping thing, and now, a few days ago, actually, I found out that she didn't know anymore.
She thought that, okay, I intervened and now everything is fine.
But a few days ago I told her everything I could remember and then she said, ew, that's disgusting.
Yeah, not the big reaction maybe that you should give your child if she's been molested or Something.
But yeah, I take from that that she didn't know.
She didn't know.
But she should have checked.
If she sees this creep around slapping your butt and so on, and she's outraged about it, then she knows you're in danger, right?
Well, in theory, you would think so, yeah.
But not that time.
Right, okay.
So, do you know a lot of times, I don't know obviously for sure, but you know a lot of times why this pedophile, your step-grandfather or something like that?
Yeah, something like that.
Were they married?
No, and he wanted me to call him grandfather, but I never did.
I didn't want to call him uncle.
So the question is, if he's the kind of hideous human being who's sexually attracted to children,
why would he be with your grandmother, right?
So there is a terrible bargain, I don't obviously know for sure, but there's a terrible bargain that
happens in some relationships where the man provides financial security to a woman,
and in return, the woman consciously or unconsciously delivers her children to his
Unholy apocytes.
Oh, good.
I think my grandma was richer than him, but he was, like, very charming.
Yeah, it could be non-monetary, it could be emotional companionship, that kind of thing, right?
Yeah, of course.
Because I just think he has some control over my grandmother.
My grandmother had my mom already and I think my mom was grown up when she met
the uncle or the partner, but I'm not sure if I was born yet.
you.
I might have been, but I'm not sure if I was.
Nor my cousin.
Right, okay.
So I don't think if that kind of trade was going on there, but... Well, it may not have involved you alone.
Obviously, there would have been other kids around, right?
There was just me and my cousin.
Okay.
And what's your cousin's age?
22 23 22?
23?
Something like that.
She was a year and a half younger than me.
So, your grandmother knew, but didn't do anything?
I think she just turned a blind eye or denied it.
And your mother knew, did something, but never followed up, and still sent you over there?
I mean, as you say, your creepy adult boyfriend was was over with you and your grandmother for a week, right?
Yes.
Please tell me you had separate rooms.
Yeah, we did.
My mother didn't allow us to sleep together, but I would say that it was ineffective because I was still, to the late hours of the night, I was with him in his room privately.
So yeah, it was very ineffective that we couldn't sleep together.
Right, right.
Okay.
But yeah.
That was where she drew the line.
And did your father, your father met him I guess more briefly, and did your father have any suspicion of the sexual activity this adult was engaging in with his 14-year-old daughter?
I actually can't remember my father at all in that context.
I don't know how much he knew about that relationship.
I do think he knew that I was in a relationship, but I don't know if he even knew the age of that man.
Like I said, he was quite distant in my teenage years and I think almost to the adult years.
Right, okay.
Okay.
So, you're 15 and your boyfriend, who can't swim, goes into a river.
Yeah.
Right.
And what happens with, I mean, I wouldn't even call that dating, that's just straight up molestation and exploitation as far as I'm concerned, but what happened after that with regards to your romantic life?
I went into a relationship like a month later with one of his friends.
So you're basically telling me this story doesn't get any better at all, right?
It just keeps getting worse.
The friend was like 14 and I was 15.
Oh, okay.
So at least he wasn't an adult.
Yes, yes, yes.
And that was like much healthier.
And I like, and I feel that it was like much healthier.
He was also very like, Not even manipulative, but just a liar.
But still, it was healthier.
And how long did that last for?
Half a year, like six months.
And what happened there?
Like in the relationship or why it ended?
Well, you said he was a liar, although not as toxic and insane, I assume, as the other guy.
But what happened to end it, right?
I guess you were sort of 15 or 16.
I could have caught him in a lie.
And then he ghosted me for a few days and then I called his mother and he basically said, don't call this number anymore and hang up.
So I knew it was over, but then the next day or the day after he wrote to me that I'm sorry.
I thought you would be mad.
I didn't have the courage to tell you that I want to break up and so on.
Boy, that's a chilling imitation of this guy.
Like the contempt, the, oh, I'm so sorry.
Yeah.
Oh, that's cold.
I'm not saying it's wrong.
I'm just saying it's, I'm getting like this body chill just from that imitation.
I'm sorry.
No, no, don't apologize.
I mean, I'm sure he deserved it, but yeah, listening to women imitate men sometimes makes my testosterone level drop, but that's fine.
I'll just go exercise and it'll go back up.
But yeah, that's, that's quite intense.
Okay.
So, but you didn't want to get back together, is that right?
No, he left me.
I begged him.
No, no, but he wanted you to come back, right?
No.
He wanted to break up.
Oh, sorry.
I thought he ghosted you and then he wanted to get back.
No, he just said that he didn't have the courage to tell me that he wanted to break up.
I'm sorry.
You're going to have to rewind me through this.
I've lost the thread.
Okay.
So you caught him in a lie and then he ghosted you, right?
Yes.
I called his mother.
You called his mother, yeah.
Yeah.
His mother gave him the phone and he said, don't contact this phone anymore and hang up.
Right.
And then?
I was very sad and knew it was over.
Right.
Uh, then he texted me through Facebook and said that, I am sorry.
I didn't have the courage to tell you that, uh, I want to break up and, but we can still be like friends.
Oh yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
So it was, yeah.
Okay.
And after that?
After that, I went to class.
No, no, I'm sorry.
After that relationship as a whole, did you date again for a while or was it soon?
No, actually it was seven years before my current partner.
Like it was a long time.
I did want to date, but I just didn't find anyone.
But yeah, it was a long time.
Right.
And did you didn't come close to dating or was it like maybe, maybe or just nobody?
I thought it was nobody, because I thought that nobody wanted me.
But when I talked my experiences with my partner, he said, oh, he wanted you.
He was up for it.
So I guess it was just like I wasn't feeling it.
I didn't find someone that I wanted a relationship with.
Okay, so then in your early twenties you meet your current partner and how did you meet him?
Through a mutual friend.
We played board games and he said that the first night he really liked me and after that we almost coincidentally saw each other at an event and after that I went to his and his friend's place to play board games and then we just Chatted through Discord and it went on from that.
I haven't seen a picture of you, that's fine, but how pretty would you say that you are?
I know it's always easy to say, well friends tell me, but you know, everybody kind of has a sense of things, right?
Can I ask the reason you're asking?
Maybe I can pinpoint what aspect you're looking for.
Sure.
Well, you say that you're sort of exhausted all the time and can't have a job and have no energy and so on, right?
Yeah.
Now, I mean, you're a very nice young lady and it's great to chat and all of that, but if a man is looking for a wife, the mother of his children, you know, somebody to run the household, I mean, you wouldn't be top of the list, right?
Because you've had issues, right?
Yeah.
I mean, he didn't know it was that serious at the beginning.
He didn't know it was that serious at the beginning.
Sorry, how did he know?
We talked.
I told him, like, the second time we met that I have neurasthenia.
It's a chronic exhaustion.
Well, no, sorry, but how would he know how serious it is if you don't tell him?
That's a good point.
No, it's just like, you know, he doesn't know I've had my appendix out.
Well, how would he know, right?
Okay, yeah.
So did you, hey, young lady, did you minimize your condition to get the guy?
I always try not to, but I always minimize the things.
You said he didn't know.
Hey, all's fair in love and war.
I'm just curious.
I don't think so.
What didn't he know?
Because you're the only person who could tell him, right?
And you'd already been tired for like, what, eight years or something, right?
Very badly, right?
So what did you tell him versus what he didn't know?
What didn't he know?
I told him that I can work two hours a day and that's my limit.
And, uh, that, uh, I am always tired, but when we started living together, I realized that even like, uh, chores at home are difficult for me.
So that was the thing that he didn't know.
Okay.
So why, why is he with you?
And I'm not saying you're not a wonderful person.
I'm sure that you are, but why would he shack up with a chronically ill and fatigued woman?
I had a big ass.
Yes, these are his words.
Okay.
Whatever fetish he might have for the Brazilian butt lift.
I mean, that's not particularly great, right?
That's not going to make you feel much loved?
Actually, he told me that I was like the fourth single woman he had met in years.
I don't know what that means.
Is he your age?
He's three years older than me.
In year, yes. I don't know what that means. Is he your age?
He's three years older than me. Okay.
So that was one thing.
And when we were at the board game night, he liked my personality too.
I wasn't like... No, no, listen, I get the personality thing.
I mean, you're very charming and a great conversationalist.
I get the personality thing, and I'm certainly not trying to take anything away from that.
Yeah, that's what he said, like... No, no, but that's what friends are for!
No, seriously.
I mean, maybe you don't get to grab the grabtastic butt or anything like that, but that's what friends are for.
He likes your personality.
Does he want to have kids?
Yeah, he does.
So what's he doing?
He's trying to help me.
No, but he can't help you.
How can he help you?
Trying to fix it.
How can he fix it?
You don't even know what the problem is.
I don't know. No, but it's an important question, right?
Okay, let me ask you this, right? I mean, do you want to have kids at some point in your life?
Yeah, I do. Okay, so you want kids and you want your your kids to be happy. So you have a son, you love your son.
He's a great kid. He grows up and he says, Mom, I've met this girl. She's fun, but she's, you
know, she passes out regularly.
She can't do any chores. She's exhausted all the time. She can't work. Should I move in with her?
it.
I would leave the decision up to him, but I would rather advise him against it.
No, you don't have that option because you're a parent.
Let me finish.
Your parents didn't give you any good advice, but that's no excuse for you.
So you're a mother, your son comes to you and says, I've met this woman.
I'm not going to show you a picture of her, of her butt because my phone is only so big.
So she's, you know, she's, she's fun, but she's, she's got a really messed up family and you know, she was molested repeatedly to some degree as a, as a child.
She has massive health issues that nobody can figure out.
She can't do any chores.
She, she's not in, you're in no state to have kids, right?
Is that right?
At the moment, yeah.
Well, at the moment it's been for the last 10 years in terms of energy levels, not in terms of like whether you should or shouldn't have kids, but in terms of energy levels, right?
Yeah, but my energy levels are getting better a little.
But yeah, I'm not near nearly there where I could have kids at the moment.
Okay, so, and there's no path to that, right?
Like, if you said, oh yes, I've been to see an expert and, I don't know, thyroid seems to have something to do with energy, I'm no doctor, I don't understand any of it, but, you know, there's this thyroid condition, I take these pills and, you know, my energy is solved, or whatever, right?
But none of that has been happening, right?
Yeah, I recently did the sleep study and I don't know the results yet, so maybe something.
But it's been 10 years, right?
It's been 10 years and you've been an adult now for six years, right?
Yes.
Okay, so you've been an adult for six years.
Have you had a full blood panel done?
Have you had a full workup done?
Have you had all of your minerals and nutrition and various things checked?
I think so, yeah, mostly.
My heart, my blood, my physical... Okay, so you don't know what the problem is?
Yes.
And, you know, maybe the energy is getting a little better, but even if the
energy is getting a little better, you still can't do much, right?
I mean, that's your email.
That's why I gave you the call the same day, right?
Because it seemed quite important, right?
You said you've had trouble... I can't put myself... No, listen.
You've said in your email, I'm having trouble finding the will to live.
Did I have that wrong?
No.
Okay, so... I don't want to... What are you minimizing for me?
You can't say, Steph, I have no energy and I can't find the will to live and then say, that's not bad.
I'm getting better.
I just wanna have a home.
I'm sorry?
It goes away.
Listen, I understand that and I hope that for you too.
I really do.
But let's get back to you and your son.
Okay.
Alright?
And I'm not trying to do anything to harm your relationship at all.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm just trying to understand where your life is.
Your son comes to you and says, there's this woman who has a mysterious ailment wherein she's kind of crippled, right?
I mean, that's fair to say.
I mean, in terms of getting things done in life, right?
Well, yeah.
Okay.
We have no idea if she can ever really have children given her energy levels.
She can't really do any chores and she can't have a job.
And she can't go to school.
Mom, should I move in with her?
No.
Okay.
And he would say, no, no, but she's, she's really nice.
But is that what you want for your future?
Like, do you want to have kids?
So this is my question.
Yeah.
How long have you guys been living together?
A few months.
Right.
Is it fair to him and his life goals at the moment?
Maybe not.
Well, I don't know.
Listen, I don't know, because I'm trying to figure out... I don't know, obviously, what's wrong with you.
I'm no doctor.
I'm no psychiatrist.
I don't know, right?
So I don't know.
But if I look at the times... Sorry, go ahead.
He has actually told me that if I don't get rid of my neurasthenia then he would have to break up with me because he wants a big house and he wants kids and he's aware that... So what's he doing?
What's he doing moving in with you, saying that the condition nobody knows how to solve is a deal-breaker?
Uh...
He...
I don't know.
you And is somebody whose judgment is not... And listen, I'm not trying to say you won't make someone a great wife.
I'm not trying to say you won't make your kids a great mother or anything like that.
But does this guy have the kind of judgment that's going to make him a good father?
So who suggested that you move in together?
It kind of happened.
No, no, no, come on.
I think it was him.
Yeah, we live in different cities, like we lived in different cities, so I came over here and like at the start of our relationship or like a month into our relationship, he said that he really supports that the people move in together quickly and get married quickly and things like that.
And was he aware of the scope of your neurasthenia at this point?
Somewhat, yeah, but not all of it, because I didn't live here.
I didn't have to do the chores.
Well, so you were keeping some things from him, if I understand this?
Not deliberately.
Okay, come on.
Are we really going to play these kinds of word games?
Of course deliberately!
Oh no.
I mean, are you possessed?
No!
Do you have a voice box that screams out things or hides things, I mean, against your will?
I didn't think of that.
No, I'm sorry.
Sorry.
You listen to this show.
You're a very intelligent woman and you are right.
So please, I'm sorry.
You can go rubber bones on me all you want, but I just won't accept it.
Sorry.
You've got free will, you've got choice and all of that.
Right.
So you've been, listen, I understand.
I understand.
I minimized my condition.
Yes.
Yeah.
You minimize your condition.
And I understand that we all put our best foot forward in dating.
Right.
Yeah.
So, you minimized your condition to have him move in.
So, how did you minimize it?
And again, I'm not judging here, I just want to understand, right?
So, how did you minimize your condition over the courtship phase, back before you moved in?
I didn't talk about things that I can't do.
I talked about things that I can do.
So I talked about that I can do two hours of work a day and I am managing my life and it's better in the recent years and it's getting better.
But I didn't tell him that at my family home I I'm not doing much chores or any of them because I just don't have the energy and I just didn't tell him these kinds of things.
I didn't tell him things that are left undone because of my energy.
And did he know that you had suicidal thoughts?
I'm not saying suicidal like you're stepping off a bridge, I mean just how can I go on kind of thoughts?
Did he know that before you moved in together?
No.
And does he know that now?
Yes.
I have told him that I I just can't take it anymore, or I'm just so tired.
And he has asked me, what does it mean?
He doesn't understand what it means.
And actually, a lot of times, even I don't know what it means, because like I said, it feels like I just don't have the energy to live, but I don't want to die.
Right, right.
There's a terrifying line from an old Sam Cooke song, it's been too hard living but I'm afraid to die because I don't know what's up there beyond the sky.
Listen, the burden, sister, listen, the burden that you're carrying is immense.
And brutal.
And scary.
And I massively sympathize with that.
And the fact that you've minimized things to get some companionship and love, I completely understand.
So I, you know, I, this is, I'm not some bearded biblical character hurling thunderbolts at moral righteousness.
I understand.
Now you said, is it true that your energy is, cause I gotta be a little skeptical, right?
Is it true that your energy is getting better living with this fellow?
Yeah, that is true, because when I started living here, I almost couldn't do anything.
I was so tired when I came from my family home, but now I do chores, I wash the dishes, and there are a lot of dishes.
Why are there a lot of dishes?
You guys have giant dinner parties?
No.
Are you inviting the entities over for snacks?
Sorry, go on.
No, we just... Oh, I know, because you have to have a big enough meal to feed your ass.
Anyway, just kidding, sorry.
Last butt joke, I promise, for at least five minutes.
All right, sorry, go ahead.
Okay, that was a good one.
Yeah, yeah.
Neither of us like doing the dishes, so we are doing them if we need to.
Ah, okay.
Spoiler, nobody likes doing dishes.
Yeah, so I do them when I cook or something.
So they're right there and I do them.
Was he surprised when he moved in with you to see what your energy level was like?
I don't think so.
At least he didn't show it, but he did tell me that the thing that he most appreciates about a partner is how she gets things done, like if she gets shit done.
Wait, sorry, what he most appreciates about a woman is how much she gets done and then he dates a girl and moves in with Neurosthenia?
What?
Yeah.
What I most value about a woman is a tiny button on her key.
I told you it wasn't even going to be five minutes.
So that's his efficiency and hard work and all of that is one of his big values.
And then he moves in with a girl who's got neurasthenia.
Yeah, I think he hopes that I make his living easier, like I do chores for him and he works, so I don't have to work.
He has told me that he doesn't expect me to work, but then he expects me to do things that are equal to his work.
Yeah, of course.
So you don't have an income, is that right?
I have a little income because of the neurasthenia.
Oh, disability kind of thing, right?
Yeah, kind of.
Okay.
So I have a little income, but the money is not the problem or it hasn't been the problem like for a very long time.
No, but it will be.
Eventually.
No, no, it will be.
And sorry, how long have you guys been living together?
A few months.
A few months.
Sorry, you mentioned that.
Okay, it will be, because we men, like, we're happy to pay the bills, of course, right?
But, you know, there's things that you have to do as well, right?
Yeah.
Otherwise, like you have to do labor for a man who's paying the bills, otherwise he's paying for sex and that's gross.
Yes.
No, don't want that.
No, we don't.
We don't want that because that's gross, right?
Because yeah, a man, if the woman is not raising his kids, running his household, making his life easier, doing his taxes, like whatever, whatever she's doing that allows him to focus on work and make himself more productive, then he's just, at some point he's going to click on him.
It's like, oh, I'm just paying for sex.
And that's not good, right?
Yeah.
I'm in a difficult position here because, like I said, my energy levels were getting better, but then I broke my leg.
What?
How'd you break your leg?
My partner bought a land and there was a house there.
I'm sorry, a what?
A land, like, with some old barns and houses.
Oh, some land.
Okay, sorry, sorry, got it.
Yeah, some land.
Uh-huh.
And we were like looking at it and going around and then I slipped my leg between two like wooden blanks and it shattered my ankle.
Oh my gosh!
Yeah, I'm probably going to be limping like until the end of the year.
But this was really hard because now I'm disabled, basically.
Oh my gosh!
Sorry, is it the case because you've been quite inactive for quite some time, have you had bone scans or do you think it has anything to do with that?
No, I think it was just a really unfortunate accident.
I have had like bone fractures and breaks before, but it's not because I was that inactive.
Did you have to get like bolts and stuff?
Like it was a really bad break, you said shattered, right?
Yeah.
I have like, think like six metal screws in and one metal plate.
My gosh.
Yeah.
So that happened.
And how long ago did that happen?
Uh, a month ago.
Are you still in, in, I assume some, still in some pain?
Uh, yeah, I can't, I don't, I am not allowed to step on my leg, like put body weight on it, but I have to move it.
But so it gets back to mobility.
Oh yeah.
No, the rehab stuff can be tough.
Yeah, for sure.
Massive sympathies for that as well.
Yeah, but it's been extremely hard because the moment I got the energy to do chores, I can't walk to do the chores.
I'm sorry to interrupt.
I'm still trying to figure out.
Look, some things in life are just an accident.
Yes.
But not everything.
Yes.
And this could just be a complete accident.
It's a little tough for me to figure out.
You stepped between two planks and shattered your ankle.
Yeah, I didn't look where I was stepping.
Okay, the full story is that we were there with two of our friends and they climbed a wall.
and he climbed the wall and then I thought oh maybe it's fun I will climb the wall and I climbed and halfway there I thought nah that's not a good idea so I stepped back and it had rained so there were two planks there that were wet and slippery so I stepped back and my legs just slipped And when I looked at my leg, there was no pain, but it was, like, disfigured.
So, it was definitely not even subconsciously deliberate.
No, I get that, but you still decide to climb up the wall, right?
Now, aren't you physically quite weak, though?
Yeah, but... I mean, you don't exercise, right?
Yes.
You don't do weights, you don't, right?
You don't run.
And I'm not criticizing you for that, but aren't you physically quite weak?
Yeah.
And that's why I decided to come down halfway there.
Right.
But why you decided to go up when you're physically weak?
It seemed fun.
I wanted to, like, I know I have climb things, so I thought it would be okay.
There was a door there, so I thought I can use that as a support and like a leeway.
Okay, so when was the last time you did something physically strenuous like that?
Oh God.
I have no idea.
Right, so you decided to do something physically strenuous in a dangerous environment when you haven't done it in probably ten or more years, right?
Yeah.
So this is the judgment thing?
Yes, that's definitely.
Now, is there a part of you, and I could be wrong, is there a part of you that wanted to show him that you weren't weak?
She didn't want to be the half disabled girlfriend.
I think there's always a part of me that wants to impress him or show him that.
I can also do things that i can also get the shit done that he can rely on me.
So maybe it was partly because of that.
Because this was bad judgment, right?
I'm not saying you're totally responsible for the accident, of course not, right?
But it was bad judgment.
I would say I am.
Yeah, to try to do something physically that you hadn't done since you were a kid and you have, of course, with genuine sympathy for the neurasthenia, you're weak, right?
Physically.
Yeah, pretty much.
I am not disabled that week.
I can still walk.
Well, you are now!
Yeah, now I am.
I mean, for six to twelve months, right?
I have no idea, actually, how long.
I just know a friend of mine that also had her leg broken, and she said that she's still limping.
You said, I thought, yeah, I thought you said you might limp for the rest of the year, right?
Yeah.
And that's my estimate.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
They haven't told you like recovery time or anything?
Yeah, no, they haven't.
They told me that I can put body weight on my leg, like in June, but I have no idea how that is going to go.
Right.
If it's going to hurt or.
Okay.
So, yeah.
Now, do you think – I know you've talked to psychologists and psychiatrists, is that right?
Yeah.
And has anyone – and you don't have to say anything about your obsessions that you don't want to, of course, right?
It's totally voluntary – but has anyone said to you that there could be psychological origins, it could be some contradiction in your emotional life, or has anyone said to you that there could be some psychology behind your tiredness?
Yeah, my psychologist said that it might have like To do with that, rather than my physical health, because, like I said, I have... Like somatic or something, yeah, okay.
Yeah.
Yeah, because they can't find a physical cause, right?
Yeah, because one thing is that I am getting better.
I go to my psychologist and she has seen my progress.
So I am getting better and it has happened after I moved out from the space where my mom and sister and father were, and also that when I was at home, in my family home, I always slept with three blankets.
I had a soft blanket, a weighted blanket, and a big feather blanket.
So I always slept like that, even if it was like 20 degrees Celsius in the room, I slept like that.
And I couldn't sleep.
Are we back?
I think we're back.
OK.
I don't know what happened there, but suddenly you were talking about how there could be some form of psychology behind it, and it was better when you moved out from your parents' place and the weighted blanket situation.
Yeah, like my psychologist said that it was a security reason that I didn't feel secure in the family home, so I used the blanket.
But here in my partner's home, I feel secure, so I almost need no blanket sometimes.
Okay.
So that's why I know that being in my family home had like made me worse or didn't help me heal.
Right.
Okay.
Is there anything else that, I mean, I assume you're calling me because the answers aren't particularly satisfying that you're getting.
Is that right?
I just don't know what to do next.
I want to like fix it.
Well, there's no doing, right?
I mean, nobody, nobody calls me for what to do.
I'm not a personal trainer, right?
Well, yeah.
I just want to know how to go on or want some insight.
All right.
How long have you been listening to my show?
Uh, I have listened to a few, uh, episodes with my partner actually.
And, uh, but not long.
And how have you found, have you found the conversation overall so far, if you're kind of new to the, this sort of approach to philosophy?
Actually, like really satisfying because you called me out about, uh, like minimizing my, uh, Yeah, or overall my suffering.
And that's what I've done, like, all my life, because everyone has, like, called me a whiner or something like that.
Oh, no, no, I don't consider you a whiner at all.
In fact, you're doing way better than I think I would in your situation.
So I, you know, I take my hat off as far as that goes, for sure.
Sure.
So look, I obviously, I don't know what the problem is, but I'm going to give you a thought.
And if the thought fits, we can work it some more.
If the thought doesn't fit, we can abandon it completely.
Right.
This is an approach that's okay.
All right.
So sort of based upon, I listen like with rabid care, right?
I'm like, I'm a sponge.
I absorb everything you say.
So you had, at the beginning of the conversation, you apologized a lot.
Yeah.
Right.
And that's something I do.
No, and I sympathize where you had to apologize because you had abusive parents.
Yeah.
And so you don't like to cause trouble because causing trouble, you have very destructive parents who abused you and scorned you.
And I was really struck by that story.
Your mother hits you.
She reaches out for you like, oh, fine, I'll give you some comfort.
You pull back and she's like, fine, don't take any.
Yeah, yeah.
Right, so that's no bond.
Yes.
Now, little girls in particular are vulnerable.
I mean, you know, boys get molested as well.
It's one in three girls, one in five boys.
I mean, you're in tragic company, right?
Yeah.
So, little girls are protected by the bond.
With the parents.
In particular, with the father.
And, you know, you've mentioned very little about your father.
He just seems like this shadowy figure on the dark side of the moon, mentally.
Yes, he was.
So, you were unprotected.
Yes.
Now, your step-grandfather, Creepozoid, and the 18-year-old Creepozoid, who took himself out of the equation to the tears of no one sane, They sensed that you were unprotected.
So your parents, and I'm not saying this is conscious, but your parents would paint you with a target for pedophiles.
Oh God.
Because the pedophiles scan, I just finished this whole section in my book on peaceful parenting, so pedophiles scan for very apologetic, Very insecure, and I don't mean that that's a personal problem, that's a natural reaction to being unprotected.
You know, like if I'm walking through the jungle at night and I can't see anything, I'm nervous.
That doesn't mean I have a problem with anxiety, it means I'm in danger, right?
There's no criticism of your personality, it's a perfectly rational response.
Yeah.
So all parents who withhold a bond from their children are painting them with targets for predators.
Those predators could be sexual, could be physical abuse, could be bullying, could be emotional abuse, could be molestation, you know, and so on.
So all children who are unbonded with their parents, which is entirely the parent's choice, all children want to be bonded with their parents.
So when your parents push you away, when they put you down, when they keep you at arm's length, they are deferring you to fucking predators.
Okay?
Whether they know it or not, whether they like it or not, whether they think about it or not, I don't care.
They are rubbing you with marinade and throwing you into a shark tank.
Oh god, yeah.
Am I wrong?
No, no, I just didn't think of it that way.
So you are, you know, I mean, you're like a baby zebra and the entire herd is half a mile away, and you're in thick grass, and you smell lion.
Which is why I said your parents are terrible.
Yes.
Because they're putting you substantially at risk.
Yeah.
Because this is the blood scent for the predator, you know, like how sharks can smell a tiny bit of water and a tiny bit of blood and a huge amount of water.
The scent for the pedophiles are anxious children without parental protection.
Like, you know lions, they always go for the zebras, the baby zebras, without the parents around, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Because they're the easiest to catch.
It's the easy meat, right?
So, you were delivered to pedophiles.
It sounds disgusting.
It is disgusting.
And this isn't even just theory, because your mother and your grandmother saw the signs!
They saw the signs!
Yeah.
And then they not only delivered you up to this fucking creep of a step-grandfather, but to the 18-year-old psychotic-having-vision-suicidal-weird-creepo-touch-a-14-year-old-girl's-hoo-hoo evil guy.
Yes.
They didn't say, get the hell away from our kid, you creepozoid.
What's the matter with you?
This is too thick for me.
Right.
Now, not only did they not protect you, they gave him you.
That's why I was asked about sleeping together when you were at your grandmother's place, right?
So they offered you up to him because they left you alone with him with no boundaries, no coaching, no protection.
They let you get molested by this turbo-creep who was fondling your privates while seeing ghosts.
Yeah.
I mean, this is about as appalling a thing as I can conceive of.
My heart absolutely goes out to you, human being to human being.
This is beyond appalling.
Yeah.
Tell me how you're feeling when I describe it in these terms.
Everything is on point, but it's so disgusting.
It is.
So, do you know what happens when we are served up by evil people to evil people as children?
What does our heart feel deep down?
Unsafe?
No, that's a defense.
Okay.
Uneasy?
That's just another way of saying unsafe, although you win Thesaurus points for synonyms.
Okay, let me put it to you this way.
You have a daughter and you hire a babysitter.
You come home and you find out that the babysitter has molested your daughter.
And what's your feeling?
Anger.
There we go.
There we go.
Not unease and fear.
Anger.
No, no.
Now, I'm not saying the unease and fear isn't there too, but you already know those feelings, right?
Yes.
So, anger.
Yeah.
All right.
Let's just pose a theoretical here.
All right?
So, you come home and your daughter has been molested By, let's say, a female babysitter, because, you know, it's more common that there would be females, and women, of course, can be pedophiles as well.
So, your daughter's being molested by a woman, the babysitter, and you say, I'm pressing charges, this, that, and the other, and then the babysitter drives home and drives off a cliff and dies a fiery death.
What do you think?
I wouldn't feel sorry.
I would feel relieved.
Good.
She can't molest any more children.
Right.
You just saved me a lot of time in the legal system, right?
Yeah, that too.
Good fucking riddance, right?
Do you see what I'm saying?
Now, what if you come home, and I'm sorry to be putting you through this, but I'm really trying to laser target on your exhaustion, right?
So what if you come home and your babysitter has not molested your daughter but instead has invited some friends over who've
done it?
That's all... No, no, that's not okay.
Well, it's bad if it's worse, right?
Yes, exactly.
Right, so that's your parents.
There's no difference.
No, so that's your parents.
Your parents delivered you to pedophiles.
Oh, no.
They're the babysitter who delivered your daughter to a pedophile.
That's your parents.
So when you said earlier, and I'm not trying to catch you out on anything, I'm just telling you sort of where I'm coming from.
When you said, I said, your parents are terrible.
And you said, I know.
And I bookmarked that in my head.
Cause I'm like, you don't yet.
Okay.
Do you see what I mean?
Yes.
I didn't know, like from that point of view, I meant like.
My partner says that they're terrible, and he's a really good judge of character.
My gut has always told me that they are not the best people, but I suppressed it because I was living with them, and I didn't want to judge anyone harshly.
Well, you couldn't!
What do you mean, you didn't want to?
You couldn't!
Children, we're programmed to not condemn our parents.
We can't.
The kids who condemned their pedophile-enabling parents, what happened to them?
Well, bad things.
Very bad things.
So you couldn't judge.
To judge your parents as a child or as a teenager would have been a death sentence.
at least that's the way our brain processes it, if that makes sense.
Yes.
Oh my god, what is that?
So you get anger.
Yeah.
But at the same time as you have anger, entirely justly, entirely justly, at the same time as you have anger, you have to very strenuously oppose that anger.
Because that anger can be fatal for you.
Why?
Because the way we're programmed is, if we call our parents out, we will be abandoned, or unprotected, and we'll die.
I'm not saying they'll kill us directly, although that certainly happened throughout our evolution, but we are risking our entire survival by getting angry at our parents.
Yeah.
That does feel it.
It does feel that way, sometimes.
Well, it is that way.
Yeah.
It is that way.
I mean, you think of the baby zebra, if it pisses off the adult zebras, they'll just stand aside when the lion comes.
Yeah.
Right?
As your parents did, really.
In fact, they delivered you to the lions.
So?
So you're angry.
I should be, yeah.
And you should be.
Absolutely, you should be.
Yeah.
Now, sorry, you go ahead.
I'm happy to hear what's going on in your mind.
I'm just thinking, like, how could they?
Exactly.
How could they?
How could they?
But they did.
And so the how could they is somewhat irrelevant.
But they did.
We know that they did, right?
Yeah.
So, you have Feelings of death, right?
Sometimes.
Yes, I understand, I understand.
And I think I know why, I don't know, obviously it's just a theory, but I think I know why you have feelings of death.
Which is why I asked, it's why I asked how would you feel if the woman who molested your daughter died in a fiery crash on the way home?
And I think your consensus was something like, good!
Yeah.
Relieved.
Yeah.
So that's called murderous rage, right?
Yes.
That was what I was feeling.
Yeah.
So murderous rage.
And listen, murderous rage is very healthy.
It doesn't mean we go out and harm anyone, but it's important to know because murderous rage is there to protect us.
Yes.
So, obviously, you know, you probably grew up with people who acted out their anger, like your parents acted out their anger or their impulses, right?
If they didn't want to be close, they had no obligations.
If they were angry, they yelled at you.
If they were angry, they hit you.
If you didn't want to be comforted, they say, fine, fine.
So, their emotions translated into actions.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah, they had no filter with their anger.
So, if you grow up with people who take their anger and act it out in a harmful way, you then become frightened of murderous rage because you think you might kill someone.
Yeah.
Do you see what I mean?
I don't want to be toxic to friends or people around me.
But that leaves you unprotected.
Now, the murderous rage is there to get Evil people away from us.
Now, that's not by killing them, obviously, or harming them physically, but the murderous rage is like, I've got to get away from these people.
Yeah, I think of it like a barking dog.
Yes, yes, barking dog keeps the criminals away, right?
Yeah.
So, you have anger towards your parents, and your grandmother, and your step-grandfather, and your quote, boyfriend, who was just your pedophilic exploiter.
And, sorry, I lost a little bit track of the cousin, you'd mentioned a cousin, and I wanted to, is he in the list?
No, she's almost like... She's also suffered at the hands of... Oh, she's suffered.
Okay, right, okay.
Yeah.
So, you have murderous rage that you can't allow yourself to feel, right?
Yeah.
And where does that murderous rage get turned if it can't be directed at the proper object?
Inside.
Yeah, against yourself.
So, for instance, you know, if you witness somebody from the Mafia organize crime, you witness them committing a crime, and you're going to testify against them in court, what do they want to do?
To you.
Prevent me from testifying?
No, they want to kill you.
Yeah.
Dead men tell no tales, right?
Yeah.
Two men can keep a secret only if one of them is dead, right?
So, you have a condemnation of your parents, and in my view, this is all theory, but I think it fits with the facts, doesn't mean it's true, right?
So, you have murderous raids towards your parents, and they would rather you die than tell the truth.
In the same way that criminals would rather kill witnesses than go to jail.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, but the evolution programming that they would rather write to me die is so weird, because it does feel that way.
Like, they would abandon me, maybe, if I... Oh, they would?
Yeah, no, and here's the thing.
Let's say that they only had a 5% chance of abandoning you.
You can't take that chance.
I don't play Russian roulette, even if it's a 1 in 6 chance, right?
Yeah, I might have gaslighted myself a lot because they have been better in the recent years, but... I'm sorry, gaslighted yourself a lot?
Are you self-critic... You're not self-criticizing again, are you?
No, you wouldn't do that to me, would you?
I want... I just want to... No, you didn't gaslight yourself!
Hang on, hang on, what do you mean you gaslit yourself?
You had a survival mechanism called squelching.
I mean that the...
I knew that they were good parents and they aren't good people, but in the recent years I didn't think of it that much because they were nicer to me.
Well, also, didn't you need them for survival?
You couldn't live on your own.
Yes.
Am I wrong?
That's true.
Yeah, that's true.
So you're not gaslighting yourself, you're living!
Survival instinct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And also, if your parents are intelligent and perceptive, and I'm sure that they are, then gaslighting yourself is the best way to survive.
Because if you have doubt or they catch a look of skepticism or rage or anything gets through the defenses, you're in trouble.
Yes, that is true.
Yeah.
I did always get in trouble if I, like, expressed my To lively emotions, I guess.
Right, of course, of course.
So imagine if you were, I'm not suggesting you do this, but just as a thought experiment, right?
So imagine you said to your parents, you know what, we need to really clear the family air.
You know, I'm going to write a newsletter, I'm going to send it out to the family about everything that happened to me as a child.
You know, the molestation, my step-grandmother, the fact that you knew mom and didn't do anything.
We've really got to clear the air.
I'm, you know, we're going to send it all out.
I'm going to publish it publicly, everyone's names, uh, just because, you know, we, we, we shouldn't have these secrets and so on.
Right.
And how would your parents react to that kind of exposure of what they did?
Not good.
No, no, no, no, no.
They would be like, they would try to talk me out of it first.
Right.
And, uh, but then if I wouldn't agree, they would be mad.
Like angry.
They'd be enraged, they'd panic, they'd freak out.
Yeah.
Because the truth would be coming out, right?
Call me a lawyer, because it wasn't like that.
Absolutely, they would re-traumatize you, they would re-abuse you, they would sacrifice everything that you are just to maintain their shitty reputations, right?
Yeah, public image, I guess.
Right, so that's the murderousness that they have, right?
Will do anything to shut you up.
Yeah.
Oh my God.
Like there's the physical molestation and then there's the mind rape that comes afterwards, which is shut up or we'll kill you.
To one degree or another.
Yeah.
Well, now I know how they are emotionally abusive, I guess.
I'm sorry, could you repeat that?
Now I, like, know how they are emotionally abusive because at the beginning of the call I said that I know that they are, but I can't bring, like, any examples.
But now I, like... Your exhaustion is, I would imagine, because you're, I mean, again, outside of the physical stuff, which I can't speak to if there's a conflict within you.
Do you remember how you described your childhood to me at the beginning of our conversation?
Not good.
No, you said, my childhood wasn't too bad.
There are lots of people who've had worse childhoods and, you know, it was okay, right?
Yeah, I recall.
Now, I've been doing this long enough that when someone says that, what's coming next?
Worst childhood.
Worst childhood that you would not, you know, I don't know if I have enemies enough or hate anyone enough to want a childhood like that on them.
Had an absolutely appalling, wretched, exploited, alienated, distant, unloved, unsupported, unprotected childhood.
And I'm so sorry for that.
Yeah.
Thank you.
And I know that in my life when I've had phases of tiredness, and please, I'm not trying to compare my life to yours.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, you have a really serious thing going on here.
But it has tended to be where I have the greatest conflicts.
you If there's anything in the mind that might be draining energy.
Yeah.
It's like, you know, you have a bicep, you have a tricep, right?
The muscle on the front of your arm, the muscle on the back of your arm.
If you try to engage both of them, your arm does nothing.
Yeah.
You're paralyzed.
Yeah.
So if you have both anger, which is there to protect you, but protecting yourself through anger is going to get you killed, in a sense, or threatened with death, or feel like you're going to get killed.
So if you have a great desire for self-protection, but self-protection is going to get you killed, then you're paralyzed.
Yeah.
Because you have a contradiction.
that which is here to protect me is going to get me killed.
Seems like that.
I.
Bye.
I never thought that, like, me minimizing my things would, like, affect me so much.
Well, again, I don't know, but I think it's an important place to start.
I don't know whether this is... I mean, it could be a thyroid thing for all I know, but I'm just saying that I can't do anything.
What I can do is try and unravel contradictions in the experience that could be setting you at war with yourself.
In other words, you want to be protected, your parents don't want you to tell the truth, even to yourself, but the only way to be protected is to tell the truth to yourself.
Yeah, I think I need to allow myself to be more angry, I think, if I need to be.
No, no, not if you need to be.
It's not a need thing.
If you are, and you should be, and I'm certain that you are because you're a human being who was cruelly violated fundamentally by your parent, just like there's the identified Aggressor, right?
Like the step-grandfather and there's the boyfriend and so on.
So those are the identified victimizers, right?
Yeah.
But... The real victimizers are the parents.
Right?
If I leave my daughter alone in the woods and she gets bitten by a wolf... The parents are at fault.
Do we blame the wolf?
Well, yeah, I mean, look, look, your step-grandfather, your boyfriend and all of that, they absolutely have moral responsibility.
But they're helpless without your parents.
They can't do anything.
Yeah.
It should have been there, like, they should have intervened somehow.
Okay.
So somehow, okay.
So, so let's go back in time and put you in your parents' position, right?
You've got this creep when you're eight calling you, I can't even say it like S-E-X-Y, like she's, you got this creep when you're eight and, and he's, he's grabbing at you and he's using these vile terms with you and, and so on.
And you see this, right?
Your daughter, right?
This is your daughter.
And there's some relative or someone who's doing all of this stuff.
What do you do?
never let them be near them again.
Like, no, this is not okay.
Okay, so that's the first step.
What else?
I'm having such a difficulty to extract my experience from...
Yeah, I know it's tough because you're now trying to put yourself in the role of protector.
So what do you do with this kind of creep?
I would actually want to like attack him.
I understand, I understand.
Like, how could you, like, to a child?
Right.
It's not normal.
Well, I wouldn't want him to be able to do that to anyone else.
That's correct.
I don't know if I would press charges because I don't have evidence.
That can be tough.
And of course, the physical attacks, right?
He can then just claim assault and make your life difficult, right?
Yeah.
But I would tell everyone, definitely.
Uh, family members that have kids and neighbors and you'd say, you know, this is what's going on.
This guy's really dangerous.
Keep your kids away from him.
Right.
You would just.
Yeah.
Yeah.
If they had kids then definitely I would warn them.
Well, everybody has kids over.
Right.
So you, you know, you just want to, you'd want to make sure.
So I don't know.
I tell you what I would do.
Uh, and, and there's no right answer to this.
So none, none, everything you're saying is perfectly valid.
Uh, first of all, I would absolutely cut off things with the grandmother.
Okay.
Because she's part of it.
Like, if she's got the kind of judgment to marry this vile person, then I don't want to have anything to do with her.
But before I did any of that, I would say, oh, I just need to, I need to use his computer for something, right?
Okay.
And then I would look through everything on his computer and see if I could find anything.
Evidence.
Evidence of anything, right?
Yeah.
Well, he didn't have a computer or any whatever.
Right.
Yeah.
Right.
He did have porn magazines or whatever.
I'm sorry.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
No, he did have like a pile, big pile of porn magazines that he showed me and my cousin and asked us if they were pretty and was a little bit insulted if we said no.
Well, there's your charges right there.
Yes.
Yeah, that's your charges right there, which is supplying pornography to minors.
Boom.
And I would publicize that as wide as possible, and I'd just take that wriggling vermin out of his nest and hold him up to the sky.
and have nothing to do with the grandmother and warn everyone and press charges and all of that, right?
And that's... but of course, you know, if your parents had been those people, he wouldn't have tried anything.
Mm.
No, I don't think so.
Right, so you think a molester, or somebody who exposes children to this kind of stuff, if he goes to jail, I mean, he could get killed, right?
I mean, pedophiles don't do very well in jail.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have heard that.
So yeah, that's everything that you deserved to be protected with, and none of that happened.
In fact, you were sent back.
And you, at the age of 14, was given a private audience with a grabby adult who called himself your boyfriend, though that's not even close to the truth, right?
He was an exploiter.
Yes.
I mean, in many places in the world, he'd go to jail.
He'd be in jail for a long time.
It's a great way to get involved.
It's a good thing.
Yeah.
Actually, he expressed his concern to me multiple times that he's afraid of getting in trouble because I'm so young and everything.
Right.
Right.
So he knew full well what he was up to.
And who had to protect you from him?
You did.
Your mother and your grandmother were like, yep, here's some, here, go, go hang out.
Be alone.
Yeah.
At least they're doing it in the house, not anywhere else.
Don't, don't try with me, sister.
Don't even, don't even try that shit with me.
Seriously.
Don't try, don't try that with me.
Don't, don't minimize this.
I tried to like, imitate their thoughts, like my grandma's mother's thoughts.
I don't like having my face pressed in shit, and I don't like having this mindset in my head.
I accept it.
I'm with you.
I understand why you do it.
But yeah, it's too vile for me.
Yeah.
At least you get molested in the house.
No!
You know, how about not at all?
Is that on the table?
Anything?
Please.
Yeah.
Can I just have a fucking childhood, please?
Yeah.
Healthy friends.
No creeps.
No molestation.
No, right?
Yeah.
So I think you're carrying a heavy burden.
My mind is still trying to tell me, well, maybe they didn't know or something, but everyone's literally telling me that, no, like if they didn't know, then it was because they were purposely ignoring it.
Well, so you have, and this is why when you said, well, my boyfriend didn't really know how bad my neurasthenia was, I'm like, what?
It's your job to tell him, and it's your parents' job to know.
It's your parents' job to know.
So, for instance, did your grandmother know that your grandfather had a stack of sleazy porn mags with children around?
I have no idea, actually.
But I'm sure.
Yeah.
And here's the thing.
You need to know the quality of the people that children are around, because everybody knows that there are these kinds of people out there in the world, and you just need to be careful, right?
Yeah.
So yeah, they're a hundred percent responsible for failing to protect you.
There's no excuse, no excuse.
Don't give them any single shred of an excuse.
Well, we didn't know, well, it wasn't subtle.
Well, we thought it was just a joke.
Nope.
Doesn't matter.
Doesn't matter.
Well, I left my daughter alone in the woods, but I didn't think there were any wolves in the woods.
It doesn't matter.
If you are not protected as a child, it's your parents' responsibility.
Yes.
Because they were all up in your face when they thought you were being selfish or lazy, right?
So they were all up in your face about that stuff, right?
Yeah.
So no, they weren't completely indifferent to your existence, right?
They were constantly yelling at you and at each other.
So they weren't indifferent to your existence, right?
So no, they're 100% responsible, 150% responsible.
If parents aren't responsible for protecting the children, who is?
In the child's mind, the child itself.
Well sure, but that's what you have to do and you can't blame your parents because at least you have a roof over your head and some food in your belly, right?
Whereas if you hold your parents accountable for failing to protect you from pedophiles, then maybe they'll just kick you out and you'll be in an even worse situation.
Yeah.
So that's just a survival mechanism.
And wanting to make excuses for them is also a survival mechanism.
And I understand that.
And I sympathize with that.
But it's not true.
It's not a fact.
It's just excuses we make so that they don't kick us out into the snow.
Yes.
But you don't need that anymore, right?
I'm sorry, go ahead.
I just need to hammer it, like, in.
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And you know, whether this helps with the neurasthenia, I have no idea.
I basically just have to look for the contradictions and sympathize with them.
And I do.
I really do.
Yeah.
I know that emotional side is a part of my neurasthenia.
I just don't want you to have this, you know, don't want to live and like all of that kind of stuff.
Well, first of all, of course, you know, and I say this to anybody who's got any kind of suicidal thoughts, that if you have any thoughts of self-destruction that you will absolutely go to ER, you will call emergency, you call a suicide helpline, get the help.
Do you make that promise to me with great seriousness?
Yeah.
Thank you.
But I think that the death impulse is your parents just don't want the secret to come out.
They just want to slaughter the witness, and you're waking up to your history.
At least, like I said some time ago, I was very lonely, but now I have my partner and friends and everything, so I can make that promise.
I don't know if I will go to the ER, but I will definitely.
At least a phone call or your partner or something.
Yeah.
Like, everything tells me that, no, you shouldn't disturb them, but I will, like, against my wishes, will call someone, or tell someone, so that they can, like, talk me out of it, because I know, objectively, that I don't want to die, actually.
No, no, you shouldn't.
No, and listen, you are a wonderful person, You are fiercely intelligent, and I can't tell you how much I respect what you've done with your life, given where you started.
And you have a huge amount to offer the world, and I want to preserve all of that, and your pride in yourself and all of that.
So I just Really want to reinforce that.
I mean, for what it's worth, my admiration for you is immense, and you have a huge amount to offer, and you have a lot of legitimate anger, and I completely understand the gaslighting.
Yeah.
I will try to deal with it.
Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
I will try.
You can just email me at the same place.
I wish I could give you a big hug and all that kind of stuff, but it's virtual, so all I can do is give you a big, big mental hug and hugely appreciate the conversation and I really, really hope that you'll let me know how things are going.
Yeah, yeah, there you go, there's our little hearts!
I'll send it back.
Alright, so listen, can we close off here?
Will you think about this and let me know how it goes?
Yeah, I will definitely express my anger.
Okay, all right.
Well, keep me posted and thanks again for the call.
Yeah, thank you.
Thank you so, so much.
You are absolutely welcome.
Take care.
Yeah, take care.
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