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June 15, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:04:55

MY FIANCE ALMOST TOOK MY HOUSE! Freedomain Call In

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	So I felt a connection with show, uh, five core eight four, which is why men won't commit to women in the thirties.
	And, um, uh, I felt the connection to the show and I felt very well describes my experiences dating.
	Uh, I'm a gentleman in my early thirties.
	And, uh, I, I really struggled to find someone that was family oriented and someone that, um, I think I could connect with, and I've become a little jaded towards young women, given the plethora of bad experiences I've had.
	Last week, I invested in a matchmaking service, and I'm hoping that'll lead to some success.
	We haven't started yet, but every interaction I had when looking for a matchmaking service, I would get pushback when I Express my preference to marry a woman younger than 30.
	And I wasn't able to find a service of, uh, that had any men at all, basically all women in this, in these services.
	Um, and so a little concern.
	Oh, you mean like behind the desk, like not.
	Right.
	You mean sort of someone you'd be talking to, to set up your dating profile or you're like, yeah, the matchmaker, the, um, All the people that work in the companies.
	Yeah.
	I mean, that's not super shocking, right?
	I mean, that would be sort of a female role as a whole, right?
	No.
	And I, I wasn't, maybe there's a market opportunity for male, male match.
	Yeah.
	I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't upset to find mostly female.
	It was more like I was upset.
	I couldn't find a single man anywhere in any of the companies.
	Right.
	Right.
	Um, um, and, uh, On a second point, given my conservative family background and leanings, I've had a lot of people recommend I join a church group.
	I've historically resisted this because I'm not religious, and I feel there's some degree of inherent deception if I pursue someone if I don't follow a denomination or a gospel.
	But I recently reached out to some church groups, particularly just for social groups, and one of the male ministers I reached out to, he actually reiterated a lot of the points from the podcast around having difficulty connecting the young men that he supports, and to me it was... Sorry, could I just do this?
	I know that this is not necessarily your gig, but if you could find whatever block it is in your mind and communicate a tad more fluently, I'd appreciate that, because it's quite distracting.
	Sure.
	Okay, so when you talk to the ministry, he says that he's having trouble finding marriage-minded women to marry their guys.
	Correct.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	To me, it was a sign that the problem is much greater than just what I've run into.
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Right.
	I mean, this is, this is someone who theoretically should have people that are somewhat conservative and marriage minded.
	They're all religious and yet he's having the same difficulty.
	And so to me, that sort of expressed the depth of the problem.
	So why are you, I mean, we can start blunt, I suppose, why are you in your early 30s and not married?
	If you're conservative and family-oriented and family-minded.
	A couple things.
	It hasn't helped that I've relocated three times.
	But relocation is not an excuse, because if relocation means that you're less likely to get married, you're still choosing something over family, right?
	Hold on.
	So part of the reason relocation's been a A challenge is it's hard to get settled into a community when you're constantly moving, or moving every few years in my case.
	And why are you moving every few years?
	For me, it's been pursuing career and a place I can afford housing.
	Okay, so you're pursuing career over family.
	I've been trying to pursue both.
	And I've had success with career to some extent and not with family.
	Okay, sorry.
	I just need to get a baseline here and if I'm incorrect, of course, correct me.
	If you keep moving, it's tough to find a wife, right?
	Because you're not in a community where you can rely upon friends, extended family, friends of friends, whatever, right?
	So, if you keep moving and keep trying to break into new communities, well, there's just less of a chance to find A wife, right?
	I mean, am I wrong about that?
	No, that's true.
	Maybe we can get a little bit more into my history because I...
	Well, no, I don't want to do the history.
	I mean, I do want to do the history, but I want to establish this baseline.
	Because if you say, well, I'm having trouble finding a wife because I'm moving, and it turns out that the moving is purely voluntary, then you've made choices that make it tougher to find a wife.
	And I'm not saying that to blame you or anything like that.
	It's actually good news, right?
	Because if you have been prioritizing career over family, that would explain why, at least in part, why you wouldn't have a wife.
	No, that's true.
	Before I moved to where I am now, I got engaged with someone and moved her with me.
	Um, and our, our goals were such that moving was in line with those goals.
	And I thought I had established a relationship, um, before moving.
	And I agree that the relocation is not helpful to.
	Um, settling down.
	So I think we're in agreement there, right?
	Like if you keep moving to make more money, then you're going to make more money, but be less likely to get married.
	Yeah.
	Part of what I, so I was in Southern California where housing is.
	Entry-level housing was a million dollars, and I had some recognition that that was not a sustainable place for a family.
	But that's not true in Southern California as a whole.
	It's only true in the urban centers.
	I mean, if you go out to the country, or I'm not sure what line of work you're in, you certainly don't have to tell me, but it's not like all houses in Southern California are that.
	It's just in the most desirable locations.
	It's in a significant amount.
	I mean, California has Five of the six most expensive cities in the country.
	So there's, um, where I was at was not very affordable.
	And do you have to be in a city or in a very high demand place for your career?
	No, I don't.
	And that was one of the reasons that I moved after I had found what I thought I found a partner.
	Oh, okay.
	So when you say housing is too expensive, you don't have to be in the most expensive housing for your career.
	Uh, and again, that's, that's a choice, right?
	And I'm not saying it's a great choice and I wish the housing prices were less, but it's a choice for you to live in places where the houses are a million dollars.
	Right.
	I, I moved, I moved there to get my career to a point that I could, uh, have some success and support some money.
	And then, um, I was dating and I found somebody.
	And then we decided to relocate to somewhere that I could continue to work that is average cost, so much more affordable, and that's where I'm at now.
	But that relationship didn't work.
	Okay, and I'd love to hear the story of that.
	Not the ending, of course, but if you can tell me more about the history of that relationship.
	I mean, we can start earlier if you like.
	It's your life, not mine, so I'm not sure where the best place is to start.
	Yeah.
	And I agree with you that there's, there's a trade-off between, you know, income and amount of work and being in a location that's more affordable makes it easier to, um, to, to have the family life.
	And that's why I'm, I'm trying to stay where I am now.
	So, um, but I, so I was in, I was in, we'll call it LA.
	Um, In Southern California, and I was sort of trying to get the expertise.
	I do engineering and project management, and there's a lot of highly technical people there.
	And so I, when I relocated to that area, it was to do some R and D work and sort of sharpen my skills in that regard.
	Um, and so when I was there, I was trying to date and find somebody and it Took quite a while, but, uh, after.
	Three years found someone that I thought would be a good partner and dated for a couple of years and then, um, made the commitment to, to her before trying to move.
	I thought that was a reasonable thing to do, to, to give her that commitment before asking her to relocate with me.
	And I.
	Misunderstood at that time, but I thought we were on the same page around goals and owning a house and having a place that was more economically affordable, that we could both continue to work, but not be in one of these major expensive cities.
	Sorry, I wasn't sure you'd ended.
	Why did you date her for a couple of years?
	I mean, rather than marry her.
	I dated her with the intention of marrying her.
	You're asking why not marry her right away?
	Well, I mean, I don't know what you mean by right away, but somewhere in between.
	So how many years did you date her before you got married?
	So i met her in.
	Middle to end of two thousand eighteen.
	And we got engaged in two thousand twenty.
	you So 15 months, 18 months.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	I thought you said a couple of years.
	Okay.
	I understand it.
	So it's sort of 15 to 18 months from meeting her to getting married.
	To getting engaged.
	Yes.
	Oh, getting engaged.
	Okay.
	And then how long were you engaged for?
	Um, we were engaged until we split and there's quite a story there.
	We finally separated in 2022.
	So you were engaged for almost as long as you were dating?
	Correct.
	And again, with all sympathy for the heartbreak, I'm just curious why.
	I mean, did things start to go wrong and you postponed the marriage and then things broke apart?
	That's exactly what happened.
	Yeah, no, that's exactly what happened.
	And was it mostly about you wanted to move someplace cheaper?
	She wanted to stay in the city?
	No.
	So what was going on in the relationship?
	Um, once we, so we, we, we got engaged, we relocated and we were house hunting.
	And at that point living together, um, we weren't living together before we got engaged.
	And, um, There were, there were issues that started to come up in the relationship that made things more difficult.
	And we bought a house together.
	I bought a house and put her name on it as a, what I thought was an act of good faith.
	Um, and just the, we were, we were unable to resolve conflicts that came up and we, um, It became more and more difficult to work together.
	I'm sorry, relative to, you said you're sort of conservative, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Help me understand the living together before getting married.
	Because, I mean, you know, statistically that's a bad move, right?
	I mean, it tends to break things up more often than not.
	And it's certainly not conservative, right?
	Which would be live together after you get married.
	I recognize that.
	Like I said, we didn't live together until we got engaged.
	Yes, that doesn't... I'm sorry.
	I'm not criticizing.
	I'm just curious, right?
	I mean, but you're still not married, right?
	So you're living together before marriage.
	I mean, the engagement thing.
	I wouldn't describe that as a conservative value.
	I would say that's maybe a Judeo-Christian value.
	Tell me what you mean by conservative then, because I generally associate conservatism with Christian.
	And you can, of course, share the values without believing in God, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, yeah, I would argue conservative, they're more issue with structure and boundaries, which better describes my temperament.
	And I'm more interested in long-term consequences rather than feelings.
	Draw connections between things and so I would argue long-term consequences of living together before you get married is to put the relationship at risk Because there's more breakups When you live together before you get married then if you wait until you're married We're we're sort of getting off topic you said that you your argument if I understand it is I described my Values is primarily conservative.
	Well, no, but no, whether you say conservative or not, you say I make my decisions based on consequences.
	And in general, the consequences of living together before marriage are that it puts the relationship more at risk.
	I didn't say I've made all my decisions based on consequences.
	OK, we're really kind of getting off on the wrong foot here because I feel like we're fighting.
	I generally don't fight with callers.
	I'm just trying to understand your perspective, right?
	So when I said it's conservative to not live together before marriage, you say, well, I'm not a Christian.
	I said, but you can hold these values with that being a Christian.
	And then you said, well, no, but I make my decisions based on consequences.
	And I said, even if we drop the Christianity or the conservatism and we just go on consequences, the consequence of living together is to put the relationship more At Jeopardy, and now you say, well, I don't make all my decisions based on consequences, so we're just going in circles, if that makes sense?
	I agree.
	I don't see the value in stereotyping what conservative is.
	So now you're saying that I'm stereotyping?
	See, this is kind of aggressive, right?
	I'm not stereotyping, I'm just talking about the simple fact that if you get married, if you live together, before you get married, the relationship is more at risk.
	I mean, that's just a statistical fact.
	You can say that's a stereotype or whatever.
	I agree with you.
	I'm sorry?
	I agree with you.
	I don't... I mean, I'm describing what I've done, or what has happened.
	Well, I'm sorry, do you think I don't think you're describing what you've done?
	I'm not sure what you're saying that for.
	Would it be helpful if I don't describe myself as conservative?
	I don't know what you mean by helpful.
	I mean, if you describe yourself as conservative and then you talk about things that aren't conservative, you know, I mean, conservatives generally put family first and you put career first.
	Conservatives don't generally live together before they get married, you live together
	before you got married. None of these are criticisms, I'm just trying to understand what you mean
	by conservative, because a lot of your positions aren't particularly conservative, if that makes
	sense, and that's fine. I mean, then maybe you just mean it more like smaller government or
	more free speech or something like that. That's good feedback, thank you. So what did happen
	with the young lady, You said that you were unable to resolve conflicts.
	Were you able to resolve those conflicts before you got engaged and lived together or were they new conflicts?
	In other words, did you have a good track record of dealing with conflicts before you lived together or got engaged and then after you got engaged there were conflicts that you couldn't resolve?
	Uh, some of both in the regards that before we moved and lived together, there were not a lot of major conflicts and maybe just my lack of self-awareness.
	It might be my, uh, there's maybe some red flags that I didn't pay attention to.
	And what were those?
	Um, her, the way her family.
	Interaction resolves is wildly different than the way my family behaves.
	And she both expressed that she was disappointed, embarrassed by the way her parents behaved, but would still repeat that behavior.
	And what kind of behavior were you talking about here?
	Well, they were very expressive verbally.
	So They would yell at each other and be very, um, I couldn't understand what they're saying.
	They're Chinese, but I got the emotional expression that they were expressing emotions very strongly versus my parents are more logical, much more even keeled if they get very emotional.
	It's something that's very important that, you know, you might think about for a few days versus her parents could yell at each other and be very expressive and then go on like nothing had happened.
	I'm not sure about that.
	Sorry to sound continually questioning.
	I'm trying to figure out.
	So emotionally expressive to me is, you know, you talk openly about your feelings and so on, but yelling at people seems kind of mean.
	And I don't associate emotional expression with being mean, if that makes sense?
	Like, if you're yelling at people, that's kind of intimidating, and maybe bullying, maybe a little abusive, or something like that.
	Which, to me, doesn't fall... I mean, I think emotional expression, being honest about what you think and feel, is a good thing.
	I don't yell at people, though.
	So, I'm trying to sort of understand what you mean by... Like, how is the yelling?
	What would they say?
	Would it be intimidating?
	Would it be insulting?
	Would it be... How would that play out?
	Well, so for example, say the husband would come home, he would get a meal and sit in the living room and the wife would be in the kitchen.
	And then they would, if there was some something I, like I said, I don't know, I don't speak Mandarin or Cantonese, but they would, they would yell at each other to communicate.
	And not just because they're far away, there was a small house, but, but also Um, you know, say the wife had something that was on her mind that she didn't like, she would yell at the husband.
	He would, he would sort of not pay attention and then he would put in some snipey argument or some side comment, you know, like a one or two word comment that sort of riled her up and their normal discourse was passionate, but not, uh, I didn't think... I thought it was not very good.
	Oh, so she grew up in a household where she didn't have the resolution of disputes modeled very well at all.
	Is that fair to say?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	And so where would she have learned her conflict resolution?
	Right?
	I mean, if I grew up...
	In a non-Japanese household, and I want to speak Japanese, I've got to learn it somewhere, right?
	So how had she learned her conflict resolution skills if she didn't get the models in her household?
	And certainly not taught in school or anything.
	No, and this is one of the red flags that I didn't pay attention to.
	When she expressed her disappointment in the way her parents communicated and Was unhappy about it.
	To me, that was a good sign that it wasn't, it was behavior she wouldn't rely on.
	Well, but I mean, she would have to learn those conflict resolution skills somewhere.
	If she says my parents aren't good at conflict resolution.
	Okay.
	So then, where did she learn the skills?
	I mean, did she read books?
	Did she do seminars or therapy or anything like that about how to resolve conflicts in relationships?
	Right, and she was doing therapy, but she clearly did not learn these skills.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	And so, did you spend much time around her parents prior to getting engaged?
	A couple afternoons.
	So maybe 20 hours total.
	And did her parents, I don't know, it was a grill or cross-examine, but did her parents try to figure out your life, your family, your history?
	Because I guess as you guys were sailing towards marriage, that's sort of the merging of two families.
	And how did they approach the approaching marriage, I suppose?
	So she has a younger brother.
	And he did most of the grilling because he speaks English.
	And he, I mean, I would sit at a family dinner and he would sort of ask questions or he would translate questions.
	So there was, it wasn't as much as, as you would think, but there was some.
	And did your parents, when did your parents meet?
	Her parents and how much time did you all spend together?
	So they didn't meet until after we were engaged, as far as the parents meeting each other.
	My parents met my ex in 2018, and they also met her in 2020, and some other times.
	So the families didn't meet until we were engaged.
	And what did your parents think of your ex?
	They were cautious, and rightly so.
	Not initially.
	I'm the oldest, so they've also expressed that they recognize that for them this is sort of new, since both of my younger brothers are not as relationship-inclined, at least so far.
	But they expressed some concerns later in the relationship that I appreciated.
	And when did they find out about the yelling-ness of your potential in-laws?
	After we were engaged, the in-laws didn't yell as far as I could tell whenever they met my family.
	No, no, but you'd seen it before, right?
	I had seen it, yes.
	And so, did you tell your parents that the in-laws yell quite a bit?
	I don't think I ever did, no.
	Why not?
	Oh, because you didn't see it as a red flag, right?
	I guess I didn't know.
	Yeah, I guess so.
	I wasn't really sure if it was just a different style of communicating versus something that was a problem.
	Like a cultural difference?
	Right.
	Just her, they're all very neurotic, her family, so they feel emotion strongly and then they go.
	Versus, like, my family is very low in neuroticism, and so just that way of communication is different.
	So, to you, having emotions and expressing them, is that neurotic?
	That's your approach to the I'm not saying that you're right or wrong, I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.
	No, neuroticism is how sensitive you are.
	So, I might feel an emotion, but I'm not as taken by it, or I don't feel it very strongly.
	Does that make sense?
	So, it's the strength of your emotions?
	So say, you know, if someone's very high in neuroticism, then they can get very upset or they can be very happy.
	They tend to swing more, versus someone who's low in neuroticism is more stable.
	Okay, so neurotic simply means emotionally unstable?
	Emotionally sensitive.
	Well, the technical definition is it's emotionally unstable, at least according to the dictionary.
	Because, I mean, people can be very sensitive for that being.
	neurotic, but it usually has to do with overthinking things or taking both sides of the argument in isolation of someone else.
	It can be emotional instability, and you're right, that certainly is paired in with sensitivity.
	Okay, so did you say to your parents that the family they were going to marry their eldest son into, that the family was neurotic?
	No, we never had that discussion.
	Well, hang on.
	They can't have that discussion if they don't know the facts, right?
	I did not explain that to them, yes.
	But they're marrying into the family, right?
	I mean, they're going to share grandkids with the family, and I mean, sure, there's some physical distance, but, you know, there's going to be some significant overlap, right?
	And their daughter might be involved in taking care of your parents when they Age, right, if the marriage had worked out, because that's often a bit more of a female thing.
	So, I'm trying to sort of figure – would you say that you're close to your parents?
	We talk weekly, so fairly close.
	So, you have information about the family that they're gonna marry into, in a sense, right?
	The blended family.
	Yes.
	And you don't, what did you say to your parents about your potential in-laws or I guess your future in-laws after you
	got engaged?
	Um, I expressed that...
	Well, maybe I did express some concern.
	I definitely expressed that they communicated differently, that they had a very different life, that their The way that they functioned as a family was different than our family.
	And, um, but I also expressed that my ex expressed desire to change some of those aspects.
	She didn't want to repeat them.
	So I guess I had hope, um, uh, positive, uh, a better outcome, which So you're a project manager, right?
	Right.
	How often is hope a valid strategy in a project?
	Yeah, never.
	I mean, ironically enough, right?
	I mean, I've done project management in a technical field as well, and hope is a four-letter word in project management, right?
	So, I mean, you have all of these skills to know that hope is not a strategy, hope is not a plan, and hope is usually a four-runner to disaster, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah, that's, it's unfortunate, but you need to take those work skills home too.
	I mean, their life skills, they apply too.
	Yeah.
	So tell me a little bit about, I know it's not the most traditionally Mandarin name, let's just call her Sue for the moment.
	So when you, how did you meet Sue and what was it that drew you to her initially?
	So I met her online and on a, Application.
	And what drew me to her is we were able to set up a date quickly.
	It wasn't a bunch of back and forth messaging.
	That's a, it's a good sign that someone's serious about dating.
	And she was, and, um, she could, she was financially self-sufficient adults who, um, And what were those values?
	attention to personal health and fitness, which is also describes me.
	And we were both sort of interested in, in having kids and the values she
	expressed seemed to align well with what I desired.
	And what were those values?
	I mean, you've mentioned some of them like kids and fitness and so on, but what else?
	Um, yeah, so the kids, the fitness, uh, the sort of financial stability,
	as far as being a bit frugal.
	Um, Those were the main ones.
	Okay, so she saved money, she wanted kids, and she was into fitness.
	I'm not trying to diminish.
	I just want to make sure I understand.
	And she, she was, um, and she was actually taking action along those lines and not just, no, no, I get that.
	She was.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Um, yeah, she, she worked in finance, felt like we were a good match in that regard as far as being, um, Sort of similar, similar STEM backgrounds.
	And, and we were each other's type sexually.
	Uh, that helps.
	Oh, you mean like you were physically attracted to each other?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And how, how pretty was she?
	Or I guess is sound like the past basement or something, but.
	Six to maybe a seven.
	And you?
	I'm probably an eight.
	So you were stepping down, and there's nothing wrong with that of course, but you were stepping down slightly in terms of physical attractiveness?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And are you white?
	Yes.
	Okay, got it.
	And did the biracial thing trouble you, or did you think about that, or was that something that you had done any research on or anything like that?
	Oh, I would be more concerned for future kids being mixed, but personally I'd It wasn't a problem for me.
	I had the great fortune of attending an international school for a couple years when I lived in London, so I've had a lot of exposure to other cultures, and it just wasn't something that bothered me.
	OK, got it.
	So what virtues did you possess?
	Because, you know, you're talking to the guy who says that love is our involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous.
	So what were the virtues that you most admired about her?
	I admired her work ethic.
	I found out kind of quickly that she was pretty bad at math, but she worked in finance
	and she made that happen mostly through through working hard, even though it became very clear
	it was going to be an impediment to her career growth. And then that became apparent in the other
	So the fitness, And sort of working towards the intentions of having a family as far as spending effort on getting to know me and dating.
	And, um, um, I did appreciate, she was quite good at, at connecting with people, which is something I struggle with both being a bit extroverted, but also, um, just finding things to connect on.
	And so that was a skill I admired that she had.
	She was able to kind of build groups.
	No, I agree with all of that skills, but skills are not virtues, right?
	I mean, people can be hardworking and I'm not saying she was immoral, but people can certainly be hardworking and immoral, right?
	People can be fit and immoral and people can be good at quote, connecting with people.
	I mean, Mussolini was good at connecting with the Italian population.
	That doesn't mean that he was a moral man.
	So I'm talking, how long have you listened to what I do for?
	Off and on since college, so quite a while.
	Okay, so I'm sure you've probably heard these questions a million times before, but it always is interesting to me how it seems to be new to everyone, but none of those are in particular virtues.
	I mean, if you are virtuous, then being hard-working certainly helps, but hard-working, fitness, connecting with people, these aren't virtues.
	The virtue is something that is good in its own right.
	In other words, it can't be turned towards… Okay, so be honest… So something like honesty, which... Honesty, moral courage, directness, maturity, wisdom with the emotions, so knowing that just because you're upset, you don't blame the other person and manipulate them or try to get them to change their behavior.
	You know, the real-time relationship stuff.
	Self-knowledge, of course.
	important for virtue.
	So, all of the things that can't be turned in a negative way.
	So, you take a hard working person, you put them in charge of a concentration camp, they're going to get more people killed, right?
	So, the hard working is dependent upon other virtues in order to become an accessory to virtue, if that makes sense.
	So, I'm trying to think of, I'm trying to understand that the primary virtues I mean, there's lots of people who are very fit who are utterly corrupt, right?
	So I'm trying to think of or trying to understand the primary virtues that drew you to her.
	I'm just writing down.
	This is a great definition.
	Okay.
	She had a fair bit of self-knowledge.
	She was definitely not...
	Good at self-censoring, I guess.
	So she would express how she was feeling, good or bad.
	Well, that's not a virtue either, right?
	I'm not saying it was.
	Okay, but sorry, maybe we have a miscommunication.
	I'm asking for the primary virtues, not for the things that aren't virtues.
	So if I say, uh, where's Vegas and you tell me where Honolulu is, I have the right to say, I did ask you now you can say you don't want to talk about it, but to, to talk about things I haven't asked for.
	And then I seem to get a little annoyed when I ask for the things that I asked for is, uh, yeah, no, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll just be silent when I'm thinking then.
	So yeah, that's fine.
	She had these, she had some.
	Some self-awareness so she was aware of things that she struggled with.
	And wanted to improve on.
	And she was.
	Interested in in.
	Lots of ideas.
	I guess that's not a virtue either.
	She was, she was interested in consistency.
	So she, I think that was one of the things that drew me to her.
	She would express, I don't know if you'd call it fairness, but she, there was a recognition of, um, uh, like the behavior that she displayed was the behavior that she was going to try and model to have people display back to her.
	um sorry maybe maybe you should list the virtues again that
	would help No, no, that's fine.
	I mean, the pause is quite telling, right?
	And I'm not trying to criticize, I'm just sort of pointing it out.
	Now, when it comes to, you said she has some degree of self-knowledge, and what would be an example of that, and how would that manifest or come to life in the relationship?
	So, just so you know, for me, self-knowledge is, let's say, I say, I have a bad temper and I tend to escalate conflicts, right?
	So that's self-knowledge, right?
	So then of course I should be working on that and trying to figure out what's causing it and undo the thoughts that go behind it and all that kind of stuff.
	But the way that self-knowledge manifests in a relationship is you can be called on it, right?
	So, you know, if I have this, I tend to escalate and I tend to be too grumpy, then when I'm escalating in a conflict, my wife can say, or my wife could say, hey, remember this thing where you escalate, you're doing it now?
	And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah, okay, so sorry, you're right, you're right.
	And so I can hold on it, that's the purpose of self-knowledge.
	is so you can be called on stuff and it's got weight in the relationship in terms of resolving conflicts, if that makes sense.
	So with her self-knowledge, I guess, what did she know about herself and how did that practically manifest in the
	relationship?
	She was aware that she had some serious insecurities and would project those onto me.
	and Would withdraw that line of communication when I would point out that she was just being insecure and it was nothing that I had done that was wrong.
	Uh, insecure about what?
	So she, she would, um, presume some behavior that I was doing was unfaithful or was, uh, had malintention.
	And I would, I would point out to her that I'm behaving the same way she's behaving.
	And I'm, uh, you know, there's plenty of good reasons for this behavior and it was just her insecurities manifesting.
	And would that generally resolve the conflict?
	Maybe not immediately, but it's like, oh yeah, I do have that habit.
	Yeah, it would.
	She, she would, she would, she wouldn't.
	Always apologize, but she would at least acknowledge that there was nothing wrong with the behavior.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And how often would this kind of stuff come up to the point where there was conflict?
	Once a month, maybe.
	Okay.
	And did it improve or stay the same or get worse over the course of your, I guess, two or three year relationship?
	It sort of came and went based on How she was doing.
	And what was she doing to work on the issues outside of the conflict?
	Cause you know, generally if you have some problem with your way of communicating, you can't usually do it in the moment.
	You have to do it in between the moment, right?
	Yeah.
	So she was, she was getting counseling.
	Um, she was getting counseling actually when we started dating.
	I, I was aware of this issue within the first six months and I had aspirations that this would improve, and it didn't.
	I remember at one point telling her that she needed to switch counselors because, you know, this counselor had been working with her for over three years and the problem hadn't been fixed.
	Had other problems been fixed?
	I don't know.
	That's very possible.
	But nothing obvious, right?
	Yeah, I mean it's kind of like if you're going to a nutrition and exercise coach and after three years you weigh the same and have this little muscle mass as you did before, we might have some questions, right?
	Exactly.
	And did she end up taking your advice?
	I know this is more towards the end of the relationship, but did she take your advice at all and switch therapists?
	I have no idea.
	No, because the thing kind of blew up before then, right?
	Well, and she didn't share this.
	I don't know who she was.
	Therapy sessions with this.
	Uh, so, but yeah, she, sorry, but what do you mean?
	Well, the, the therapy sessions, I don't know the name of the counselor.
	No, I get that.
	But I mean, you would know if she changed her counselor, wouldn't you?
	She'd say, I'm no longer going to this guy.
	I got a new guy or woman.
	Oh, she, I mean, she never, she never shared this port.
	So I, I may not even know if she changed.
	Does that make sense?
	So, you said I think you need to change counsellors.
	Did she agree?
	No, she got defensive.
	Okay, so then she didn't change counsellors.
	I presume that's true, but I wouldn't know.
	You know, like if you're a project manager, if somebody's got a deliverable and they won't give you an answer, is it because they have their deliverable ready?
	No, of course not.
	Right, of course not.
	That's not even a guess, right?
	Right.
	And did you go to counselling at all?
	So I went to counseling when the relationship was deteriorating.
	Um, I wanted to do couples and she didn't want to do couples until I had done individual.
	Um, which I was kind of frustrated about, but I pursued individual.
	I did that for about three months and most of the individual counseling turned into how to manage her.
	And it became very clear that the sources of my challenges.
	Were the relationship and not things that I could do individually per se.
	Did the counselor, obviously you don't talk about anything you don't want to, but did the counselor ever try to figure out why you ended up in a relationship where you had to manage the woman?
	No.
	Okay.
	So it was just like practical strategies for talking her off the ledge if she got too wound up, right?
	That's, that's a very, very good description.
	It was a lot of how to, Back down or avoid conflict or.
	So a piece how to, how to a piece.
	Or, or, uh, put her off or a lot of it was so, because I'm the way my parents are, you know, if, if something was yelling, I would be very upset and I would stay very upset for a long time versus right.
	She would get upset and she would come back an hour later and be perfectly peppy.
	And so one of the strategies was to sort of shut down the conversation and then just come back when she was happy.
	Were her parents rural Chinese or urban Chinese?
	Uh, I guess rural.
	Right.
	And your parents are British, right?
	Um, not German, Italian.
	German, Italian.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	But it sounds, I mean, if they're not particularly emotionally expressive, it sounds like they tend more towards the German, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	So you really are, and I say this with great affection, you really are the worst conservative I've ever heard of.
	I'm just going to be straight up, I can't be wrong, but you really are the worst.
	Because conservatism is about conserving your cultural values as well, right?
	And how you would go from primarily German parents to merging a family with, you know, shrieking rural Chinese people who don't even speak German or English or, I assume, any European language.
	I mean, how on earth are you conserving your values?
	How on earth are you conserving your traditions?
	I mean, again, I could be wrong, but it's about conserving what your ancestors kind of developed and all of that, and you really couldn't have gone More the opposite of your culture and your history than this, right?
	Uh, that's a good insight.
	Yeah, we, uh, what was valuable to my family is more certain traditions and, um, the, my parents' parents are farmers and mechanics and very industrial.
	I mean, how are you supposed to conserve your traditions with grandparents where you don't even speak the same language?
	Right.
	I mean, maybe I'm missing something obvious here, and I'm certainly happy to be corrected, but it's a bit jaw-dropping from this side of the convo.
	Well, they, I mean, when they moved to the US, so that was three or four or five generations ago, you know, they, to some extent.
	Yeah, my parents are not first.
	So like my dad's dad's dad's dad moved to the US, right?
	And my dad has a memory of a relative that spoke only Italian, but he grew up in the US.
	Same with my mom's side.
	But the lady I was dating, her parents were first generation.
	But how do you square traditional American values with rural Chinese people who don't speak English?
	I mean, you know that most of the texts would be in English that you would need to understand to understand sort of American values, right?
	So, I'm trying to sort of fathom this conservatism thing.
	Well, she, yeah, I mean, she grew up in the U.S.
	No, no, not she.
	No, no, the grandparents.
	Oh, sorry, her parents.
	I don't know if I would describe her parents as conservative.
	Well, you don't know in particular because you don't speak the language, right?
	Well, there's that too, yeah.
	Right, so, I mean, they grew up under communism, they don't speak English, and you want to be a
	conservative by passing along the traditions of your culture to your kids.
	And again, I'm not criticizing you, obviously, you know, date whoever you want, marry whoever
	you want, but I'm having trouble squaring the circle that you call conservatism.
	And again, I'm totally happy to be corrected and I could be awry on all of this, but I don't quite get the connection.
	I mean, if I want to preserve the traditions of my culture and my values, I'm not sure that having rural Chinese Mandarin speakers, who I don't share a language with or a culture or a history, Yeah, I guess I had some presumptions that they wouldn't be very involved because my ex was trying to separate from them to some degree.
	Okay, there's a lot in what you said there and I want to make sure we have a chance to unpack it.
	So, your hope was that... I mean, it would be tough for them to be involved because they'd be talking to your kids and you wouldn't have any idea what they were saying.
	I assume your kids would learn Mandarin or Cantonese or whatever, right?
	Was it Mandarin or Cantonese or something else?
	Cantonese.
	Oh, Cantonese, okay.
	So your in-laws would be instructing your children in Cantonese, which you don't speak and I assume are not going to learn.
	And they wouldn't be able to tell you what they were saying and you wouldn't understand what they were saying.
	So I'm still trying to figure out this sort of cultural value transmission when you have people who are going to have some authority over your children as grandparents and you don't even know what they're saying.
	I think they would try and communicate in their broken English.
	My ex was losing Cantonese as a communication because she didn't do it except with her parents.
	But they would also want to, I mean, you want to transmit your cultural values, so do they, right?
	It's kind of a universal thing, right?
	I don't know if I would say it's universal.
	Well, I mean, China's had, up until communism, China had a pretty contiguous society for 6,000 years, and that wasn't because they didn't transmit cultural values, right?
	No, but I think you would agree that certain families, especially when they move, they keep certain things and lose other things.
	But not the old people?
	I mean, there's a reason why there's Chinatown or Little Italy or Little Greece.
	It's because the older people tend to retain the values of their homeland.
	Right.
	But when these, this couple moved to the U.S., they weren't old at all, right?
	They were teens or, I mean, they moved to make a change.
	Sorry, your in-laws moved to the United States many decades ago?
	Yeah, they moved when they were Either teens or early twenties.
	So why wouldn't they speak English?
	Or whatever, right?
	No, it's because of how many people in Southern California don't speak English.
	Well, and what that means is that they stay within the cultural framework of China, which means that those are the values.
	I'm not criticizing that.
	I'm just, that's a fact, right?
	The reason they wouldn't speak English is because they've stayed in Chinatown or wherever, and they've stayed within their own cultural and historical milieu, which means that's what they value, right?
	And I don't have any complaints about that, but that's a fact, isn't it?
	Yes, he definitely, the dad at least, stayed working for communities that he didn't have to learn very good English.
	Well, and it's not, I mean, I'm sure they're intelligent and so it's not a matter of learning English or not, it's just that he prefers the Chinese culture and the Chinese language and the Chinese history and the Chinese traditions and so on to American.
	To some extent, yes.
	Well, to the extent that he's lived in a country for many decades and never learned the primary languages.
	Right, and instead he learned other tonal languages.
	other Asian languages.
	So he spoke three or four dialects to work with that community.
	Okay, so he would, I assume, be somewhat interested in passing his cultural values along, because that's what he prefers.
	Okay, so what were the kind of conflicts that you got into, because I guess they were somewhat manageable
	before you got engaged and lived together. And what were the conflicts that arose after you
	began living together that were more and more difficult to solve?
	Um, so one of them was when we weren't living together, we weren't carpooling. And
	My ex is the type of person who gets there when she gets there.
	And particularly for, so, so this came up when we were house hunting and I like to be on timer early to meeting a real estate agent.
	And she would argue that the real estate agent works for us.
	And if she's late, that's not a problem because the real estate agent works for us.
	And.
	For the house viewings, you know, you have a set time.
	So, I'm sorry, you understand, it's German precision meeting rural Chinese-influenced hierarchy.
	You know, for you, it's an act of rudeness to be late.
	For them, it's an act of humiliation almost to be on time because they work for you and who are they to boss you around, right?
	That's a really good insight, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, I mean, you understand that, again, the conservative side is confusing.
	Anyway, so, sorry, go ahead.
	I mean, I wouldn't have made that connection.
	That's really insightful.
	So, yeah.
	Yeah, so that was the source of conflict.
	So, you were living together and you were carpooling looking for a place, is that right?
	Well, we were house hunting, so we would go to see a place.
	No, but were you already living together when you were house hunting?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	So we... So you, and I'm sorry to, I just want to make sure I understand the mechanics.
	So you'd say to Sue, to, to your fiance, you'd say, well, you know, it's a, it's a half hour drive.
	We've got to be there at 11.
	So we got to leave at 10 20, right.
	Or something like that.
	Right.
	And what would she say?
	Well, she would, I would express my, I wouldn't, I wouldn't say it that way.
	I would say, you know, I, I don't like being late.
	I think it's disrespectful.
	You know, what needs to happen so that we can be there on time?
	And she would tell me things that she needed me to do so that she could be ready on time.
	Like what?
	Oh, um, I need to, a lot of the quote problems Okay, no, but like what?
	Sorry, as a project manager, I'm sure you value precise answers.
	So, what would she say that you have to do so that she can get ready?
	Oh, she needs to see me getting ready, and she needs forewarning.
	No, but you're giving her forewarning.
	You're saying we need to be on time.
	Well, no, she would more like every time.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	Well, she was really trying to offload responsibility.
	Okay, but what would she say?
	I mean, I get the narrative about it, but what would she say?
	She would say, I can't be on time because you haven't done X, Y, or Z. What is that?
	She needs to see me getting ready and preparing and put my shoes on by the door.
	No, but women take longer to get ready than men, so that doesn't make much sense, right?
	I'm agreeing with you.
	Okay, so she would say I can't figure out how to get somewhere on time unless I see you putting your shoes on.
	There was no discussion about her capability.
	I'm not sure what that means either.
	Sorry.
	Well, you just expressed to me that she would express what she didn't, that she needed That she never expressed that she couldn't get there on time.
	It's that she chose not to and or there were things that I had to have done so that she could be ready.
	So yeah, in retrospect, Sorry, so I'm getting two things here and I'm sure there's a way to circle this square, but she's saying that I don't have to be on time because the real estate agent is working for us, right?
	Right.
	And also that she wants to be on time but she can't get ready until she sees you putting on her shoes.
	Putting on your shoes, sorry.
	Yes.
	Those two are not the same, right?
	Yes.
	Because if she says, I don't want to be on time because he's working for us, then it doesn't matter when you put your shoes on, right?
	Um, she, yeah, she, she expressed that it wasn't very important to her.
	Okay.
	So then the shoes thing's a bit of a red herring, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So yeah, that was an excuse.
	I'm sorry.
	Yes, in retrospect, that was an excuse to... To put it on you.
	Put it on me.
	So you think about your own behavior rather than correcting her.
	Now, if you would have... If she was at work and she had difficulties with her boss, did that bother her?
	Yes.
	Well, why?
	Her boss can do whatever he wants because she's the employee, just as the real estate agent is her employee.
	I'm not sure I quite follow.
	I mean, if the boss can just do whatever he wants, and that's fine because he's the boss, because she's the boss of the real estate agent, then I'm not sure why she would have problems at work.
	Wouldn't she just do what the boss wants in the same way that the real estate agent has to suck it up if she's late?
	I don't mean problems like moral, but there were situations where she would be upset with something that would happen from her boss.
	I didn't say anything about moral problems.
	Well, but for her it was a problem, because she was very emotionally sensitive, so she would be very upset.
	No, no, but that's just hypocritical!
	I mean, I don't care about the emotional sensitivity, but it's hypocritical to say, I can be rude to my employees, but my boss better not be rude to me, or I can be late for my employees, but my boss better not be difficult or late for me, or I can be You understand, like, if that's the highlight.
	Yeah, I understand.
	What I guess, what I was trying to correct when you asked me the question, I didn't answer it very precisely.
	So when you asked if she got upset with situations with her boss, or when she, that's not exactly what you asked, but No, but that would, sorry to interrupt, but that would be a lever for having her have empathy for the real estate agent because, you know, this is like 101, right?
	I mean, philosophy 101, which is to say, okay, so do you like it when your boss makes you wait?
	Do you like it when your boss is rude to you?
	And she'd be like, well, no.
	I said, well, okay, then we should be nice to the real estate agent because you understand how It can be unpleasant to be on the receiving end of that lack of consideration or that rudeness, right?
	So we should be on time, because that's what you value in your boss.
	And you complain when your boss is rude, so we shouldn't be rude to our employees, even if we categorize a real estate agent as an employee, when they are in fact an independent contractor or something like that.
	So that would be, you know, Empathy 101.
	Well, you don't like it when your boss is rude to you, so let's not be rude to our real estate agent.
	Yes, that would have been a better way to discuss that topic.
	I'm not saying whether it should or shouldn't, but I mean, you've listened to me for a long
	time, so wouldn't that be...
	Did that not cross your mind to say?
	I didn't discuss her boss.
	I was more focused on the real estate agent and myself, so I expressed that it was inconsiderate
	to all the other people that have to view the house.
	They have time slots.
	We have a time slot.
	If we show up late, we have to waste everyone's time and not see that house or delay the next
	person.
	Well, and the real estate agent will be less motivated to sell for us.
	And therefore we might get like, there's actual practical consequences that if you really annoy your real estate agent, they just won't be that focused on getting you a great deal or getting you lots of offers or anything like that.
	Whereas, you know, having people like you and appreciate your politeness.
	And I mean, there's, there's real practical outcomes to that, right?
	Yeah.
	So that was my, that was where my arc, you know, Right, which then would tie in how motivated do you feel at work when your boss is rude or difficult?
	I didn't express that.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	That's fine.
	So, okay.
	So, tardiness or... And you know, you can tell a lot about people by how they treat those they have power over.
	Actually, do you mind if I make a note on that regard?
	No, that's fine.
	Um, so, so one of the things that I've looked for in dates is someone who's not late.
	And, um, because for me, the respect thing, and I found lots of dates that are slightly late.
	either as a power clay or they just don't care.
	Anyway, this... Or it could be that they show up and like, I'm really, really sorry.
	X, Y, and Z happened that was highly unpredictable and, you know, there could have been some horrible traffic crash or like, there can be reasons for being late, but you certainly do need to acknowledge that it's something wrong that's happened and you need to have a good explanation, right?
	Right.
	And that's never happened.
	So, but this X happened to be early and I found out she was just early because she was studying at the place we had our first date.
	But for me, that was one of the... it was like a good sign that ended up not being applicable because she... Well, you don't get the good sign three years into it, right?
	I mean, the one time that was coincidental.
	Okay.
	So, there was issues around real estate and... was carpooling an issue?
	Was that mostly because she didn't want to be on time or was there something else?
	No, it was the...
	Coordinating to a preference for being on time.
	Okay.
	And was there something else?
	I mean, I assume that wasn't the thing that broke up the whole engagement.
	Was there something else that occurred over and above the house hunting?
	Yeah.
	I mean, there were, there were a series of things that just sort of escalated.
	I became aware that there were values that I had expressed, and priorities, and she agreed with those, but later found out she just wanted everything.
	She didn't actually have the same priorities.
	Okay, again, sorry, I hate to keep repeating myself like a broken record, but if I can get specifics rather than narrative, that's very helpful.
	When I articulated that we wanted a certain type of house, a house that we could host people, and that would take sacrifices of remodeling to make that happen, those were intentions that I thought we were aligned on.
	And she opposed and didn't want to put any effort towards remodeling the house that we purchased to make that happen.
	And again, I don't know much about the Southern California real estate market, but why would you buy a house that you had to remodel rather than trying to find a house maybe with some other compromises that you didn't have to remodel?
	So, this was after we moved, so we weren't in Southern California.
	Okay.
	But there's no... I mean, the housing... Good luck finding a house that has everything you want.
	Well, I mean, that's true of life as a whole, right?
	Because if the house has everything you want, then it's just too damn expensive.
	So then it doesn't have that, right?
	So, as you know, like, there's no such thing as a perfect solution.
	There's just trade-offs, right?
	Exactly.
	So you know for sure you can't get the house that you want.
	I mean, nobody can.
	Right.
	Everybody wants the mansion for a dollar with no property tax.
	So nobody can get the house that they want.
	But anyway, go on.
	Yeah, so we knew this, but we purchased a house that we could make into what we wanted, right?
	We paid enough overlist to win, competitive market, and then put in the effort to do the adjustments to make it what we wanted.
	And you had mentioned being able to have people over, is that right?
	Like socializing stuff?
	Yes.
	And you said you're kind of an introvert, so I'm trying to understand, I'm not saying that that's all and introverts can't party, but what was the priority for you of having people over?
	Part of it was she wanted it and I was happy to support it.
	Oh, so she wanted it?
	Hold on.
	No, no, sorry.
	I'm not trying to stop you from talking.
	I was just, I thought you said that that's what you wanted, but, and that's totally fine.
	I just was a little surprised.
	Go ahead.
	I recognize that I'm not as outgoing.
	And so for me, I wanted to create a space that I could host events in to help ameliorate that.
	And I've done that since she's left.
	So.
	So you both wanted it?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	That's fine.
	I'm just curious.
	All right.
	And how long and how expensive, and you don't have to give me totally detailed figures, but how long is it going to take to fix up the house?
	Well, it's basically done now.
	You're asking how You're asking how long you mean when we purchased the house?
	Well, I don't know if you say it's done now and I don't know when you bought the house, you haven't answered how long it is, right?
	Oh, so, well, there's more, I think there's more, there's, there's other things in the timeline, but, um, so when we, we purchased the house in, um, 2022 and I started Project managing, basically, the remodel, and we were looking at a cost anywhere from $15,000 to $45,000.
	uh, 15,000 to 45,000.
	But, uh, and two years off and on, right?
	I'm sorry?
	If you bought it in 2022, then it's two years, give or take, right?
	Because 2024 now, so it's two years, give or take, that it took to do the upgrades.
	I mean, obviously that's not continual.
	No, we purchased the house in 2021.
	Okay.
	Or even, no, maybe it might have been 2020.
	Let's see.
	Okay, so maybe two, three, four years, something like that.
	So a number of years to remodel the house, right?
	It wouldn't normally take that long, but we started to separate and that put a kibosh on spending time and money on making the improvements.
	And how long would it have taken if you hadn't separated?
	Like, what was the estimate for completing the work?
	Oh, like eight months.
	Eight months.
	Okay.
	And how old were you when you bought the house?
	At 29.
	Twenty-nine.
	Okay.
	And she's your age?
	One year younger.
	One year younger.
	Okay.
	And why... You've been together for a couple of years at this point, right?
	Three years.
	We were.
	And you want family, right?
	Right.
	So why remodel the house rather than start having kids?
	I mean, it seems that you're choosing a lot of stuff other than family, and this is good news, I think, but I'm still trying to figure that out.
	Well, at that time, so we called off getting married because of these issues in the relationship.
	Sorry, I don't know when that happened.
	So that happened about the same time.
	The same time as moving?
	As the house remodel planning.
	I'm sorry, I completely lost you.
	I thought you've only been together for three plus years, but you bought the house in 2020, which is four years ago.
	I'm sorry, it's my mistake.
	I'm sure he's misremembering something.
	So we met in 2028.
	2018.
	Yeah, we moved in 2020.
	Oh, so you were together.
	2018. Yeah, we moved in 2020.
	Oh, so you've been, you were together and when did, how long ago did you break up?
	Um, it's going to be two years.
	My apologies.
	Okay.
	I got it.
	I'm just going to, I'm going to have to be an annoying guy and write this down.
	Okay.
	So Matt 2018, bought house 2020, broke up 2022, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So you got engaged.
	You look for, if I have this right, you got engaged, you look for a house.
	So no, we got engaged.
	We moved.
	You moved in together?
	We moved in together and moved cities.
	And when was that?
	That was 2020.
	It was during COVID.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Got it.
	So then you lived together 2020 and you move.
	All right.
	I'm just putting a big living in sin now.
	I'm just kidding.
	All right.
	So cohabitate and then you bought the house in, was it the same year that you moved in and then you bought a house that year?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	So you moved twice.
	Yeah, so what happened was COVID happened.
	We both agreed that it was a good opportunity for various reasons.
	We moved because I found a job that gave us moving side spend.
	We moved together and then we were in a new city together.
	We took an apartment while we house hunted.
	And then within those four months we had purchased a house.
	Got it.
	I appreciate the update.
	What happened to her career?
	When she was in a position that she worked remote.
	Oh, so her condition could continue.
	Her, her, her career could continue.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	So it was shortly after that you moved into the new house and the renovations were underway and I assume you could live in the house while the renovations were going on.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, we, we, we hadn't even started anything.
	It was mostly just the, all the difficulty that came up with planning and working together when it became very apparent that her values, like she, she wasn't, she wasn't very interested in what I thought the shared goal was.
	Oh, okay.
	Sorry.
	More abstractions.
	Um, the, the shared goal of owning the house and having it be a place that we could host and, um, You know, having a guest room that people could visit and like those, we had some criteria when we were purchasing the house.
	And when it became time to put forth the effort to realize that criteria, she was not, she didn't put forth the effort.
	What effort did she need to put forth?
	I mean, you've got the project management stuff and you, I'm sure you're dealing with the contractors.
	So what effort does she need to put forward?
	Well, so say for example, I have to purchase.
	Uh, countertops, right?
	I would go and get quotes.
	I would, you know, make selections, go around and source material.
	And then she wanted her input, which would mean I would then go back around with her and show her the ones that I thought were good candidates, um, to pick from.
	And she, to her, that was a lot of work.
	Oh, so she said, I want to choose the countertops, but I don't want to go and look for the countertops, but you can't buy them without me.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So that's just straight up sabotage, right?
	I mean, that's an impossibility.
	That's exactly what happened.
	Okay.
	So that's an, so why, why do you think she was doing that?
	Um, I think some of it was power play.
	Like for example, she, she, she would want what she would want because she wanted
	it, it was, um, she, She wanted to make decisions unilaterally to express that she could control this situation for almost no reason other than to control it.
	So there were decisions that she wanted to make that were terrible design decisions.
	And I would have store people look at me and be like, that doesn't, that's not going to look very good.
	And no, no, that's what I want.
	And it's like, good.
	Why would you want to do that?
	It's terrible.
	You know?
	Sorry.
	I'm, I'm trying to understand.
	I mean, she, she had the house that she wanted.
	She wanted the house a certain way, right?
	Like she had design goals and ideas, right?
	Now she would be home with the kids.
	So she'd be spending the time in the house, right?
	Right.
	So wouldn't she get to say?
	I mean, she's spending much more time in the house than you are.
	Some of the preferences she made were contradictory. So they were, um,
	my impression was that for her it was about control.
	I don't know what you mean by contradictory.
	She'd say I want one bedroom and no bedroom?
	What do you mean?
	I want a bar-heighted counter and I want a counter that's not bar-height.
	Well, I mean, she's not insane, right?
	She'd know that you can't have the same counter be two different heights, right?
	Yes.
	Making functions in the world, right?
	Right, but she, I mean, it was, what she was asking for would be some unique custom thing that doesn't exist anywhere.
	And so then people would say that doesn't, that's not something we can do, right?
	And what would she say when the contractors would say we can't do that?
	She would just say, that's what I want.
	So she's kind of crazy, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, when did you first notice that she was kind of crazy?
	I mean, if people say, this can't be done, and she says, I want it anyway, that's not well-meant.
	It wasn't that blatant, but this is when...
	This is about this time is when we called off the marriage plans.
	No, hang on.
	Sorry.
	I'm just, I'm trying to figure out like we have trouble communicating.
	Right.
	And maybe it's me at my end for sure.
	Right.
	But you say she wants things that are contradictory and I say, well, like this and this, well, no, not like that.
	Okay.
	But she wants things that the contractors say can't be provided or can't be done.
	Right.
	And then you say, well, it wasn't that obvious.
	And I'm like, so I don't know what we're talking about anymore.
	Oh, so, okay.
	So say, say she says, here's a design theme that I want.
	I want whatever traditional style.
	Yep.
	And then she chooses fixtures that aren't traditional.
	Okay.
	And then she tells off someone who points out that the fixtures that she's chosen will look terrible with the design style that she says she wants.
	Well, what do you mean?
	I mean, looks terrible is a very subjective thing.
	I mean, I wouldn't want to live in Graceland, but Elvis liked it.
	I mean, if that's what she wants, that's what she wants, right?
	And I'm not saying that that means it's an absolute like gravity, but again, she's going to be the one staying home with the kids.
	It's more important that she liked the house than you.
	And plus she's a woman, right?
	So if she wants something, then You know, they can say, I don't think it fits.
	And she says, well, I want it.
	And it's like, okay.
	Yeah, it could be things like, I really like bright areas, but I'm choosing lamps that are really low light.
	Or, um, you know, I want something that's super durable, but I also want, um, uh, there's a type of countertop that she wanted that is not durable at all.
	So, because she liked how it looked.
	Okay, so if she wants something durable, and the contractor says, this stuff is very fragile, right?
	Like, if you say, I want furniture that takes a lot of wear and tear, and I also want, you know, white muslin couches, then they're going to say, well, that's not going to take a lot of wear and tear, and the stains are going to show up.
	So what would she say to that?
	She would just say, well, that's what I want.
	Okay, so that's what she wants.
	So, what would you say?
	Would you say that's not acceptable, that's not allowable?
	Well, I would try and suss out the criteria for her decision, because I'm doing the hunting for, you know, the material, or I'm trying to work with contractors, so I would try and... And why were you doing the hunting for the material?
	Because, I mean, she wasn't putting much effort into moving along the remodel.
	And so?
	So then you don't remodel.
	Again, I'm sort of trying to understand this.
	I mean, if she doesn't want to do much effort, then why does it become your job?
	Because I wanted to make it happen.
	Why?
	I don't understand the question.
	Well, so you wanted the remodel.
	Yes.
	Okay, so you wanted the remodel, but she said, I need to make all the decisions, and she wasn't... she was actually interfering with the decisions, right?
	Because you'd say, here's the countertops, and she wouldn't come and look at them, right?
	Right.
	Okay, so wouldn't you just abandon the project?
	At least for the time being, until she's got motivation?
	Well, some of it was...
	I mean, that's what happened when our relationship deteriorated.
	I mean, it happened anyway, so at least you could have prevented some conflict, right?
	Because, like, in relationships, right, sometimes people want stuff that doesn't make any sense.
	Sometimes people want stuff that's contradictory.
	Right.
	So what are you going to do?
	I mean, the German side of you, we must organize this.
	It must be ironed out.
	It must be blueprinted.
	It must be non-contradictory.
	It must be implemented within a reasonable timeframe.
	I mean, I get all of that, but it's part of a culture.
	I mean, if you wanted someone like you, you'd date a German girl.
	Yeah.
	I think what for me was very frustrating was I thought there was some agreement when we purchased the house that we would make these changes and Um, you know, there was some commitment to that and it turned out she didn't make any commitments.
	Right.
	She just, she said she wanted it.
	Not only did she not make a commitment, she was actively obstructing the process.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	She, she both wanted the outcome and didn't want to facilitate the outcome.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Oh, and in fact, she was interfering with the outcome.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Now where there's, was there any sign of that before?
	You bought a house together and you put your name on it without being married?
	You put her name on it without being married?
	Um... Because you're complaining about the project called renovation, I'm questioning the project called marriage as a whole.
	Right?
	Like, if you say, well, you know, things have to be done the right way and in the right sequence and I'm a conservative, it's like, well, why are you putting the woman's name on the property?
	When you're not even married.
	I intended to marry her, and that felt like an appropriate thing to do.
	But was there indications?
	I mean, you said that there was indications of her being rude or thoughtless when it came to house hunting, right?
	Right.
	And what else was there?
	that would have given you these indications?
	Is there a specific I mean, I guess... Well, before you put her name on the house!
	Yeah, so the stuff with her parents and the insecurity that I knew she was working on,
	but I hadn't seen addressed.
	Those were the bit two before and then the real estate agent time preference.
	Well, and the after lack of progress in therapy, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so You put the project on hold to fix up the house, right?
	I'm sorry, say that again?
	Sorry, you put the, when you weren't getting along with your fiancé, you put the project on hold for fixing up the house, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And I assume that cost some penalties?
	Um, not really.
	I was doing most of it.
	Oh, you were doing the renovations yourself?
	I was doing most of the renovation.
	Yeah.
	Holy crap.
	So you got a full-time job?
	Yes.
	And just spending four or six months renovating your house?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	I mean, that's, that's a lot to put on a relationship, right?
	Um, I guess so.
	Yeah.
	I mean, which were you having fun doing the house together?
	I enjoyed the work.
	and For me, the sort of physical aspect of it was rewarding.
	I've always been more of a shock person.
	For her, not so much.
	Did she join you in the work?
	No.
	So you're hammering away wherever in the basement and she's doing what?
	Well, she would go Bicycle or do some social thing or, I mean, particularly on weekends, she would try and go socialize.
	So, I'm sorry, I mean, you're like a galley slave down there hammering in the basement and she's lunching with the ladies?
	I have some resentment in that regard.
	You think?
	Yeah.
	Holy crap.
	So now you're someone who works for her and she can treat you this way?
	Right.
	I mean, if your wife was hammering away in the basement and you're like, I want to go golfing.
	Wouldn't you feel kind of bad?
	I would.
	Yes.
	But she didn't.
	She would say that it was something I wanted and I chose to do and she wasn't going to stop me.
	Okay.
	So she did want this renovation and then she didn't when she wanted to go out.
	Right.
	Now, so she doesn't understand marriage, obviously, because there is no you and me in marriage.
	Right.
	Right?
	I mean, if you have a project, you're one flesh.
	It's like your left arm saying to your right arm, well, I didn't want this, so you do all the work.
	I mean, you're supposed to be one flesh, right?
	Right.
	So how long did this go on for, that she would basically leave you to do all the hard work while she went off and spent money?
	Um, probably two or three months.
	Um, so not the whole project.
	Oh no, but then you put it on hold, right?
	Yeah.
	So then, so then I basically, it, it stopped.
	Um, a lot of the work was the planning and getting quotes.
	And so, but, um, yeah, I, I put in the new kitchen cabinets and did the electrical and the lights and.
	And was she appreciative of this at all, or was it like, not particularly?
	Not particularly.
	Wow.
	Okay.
	And then?
	So then, basically the project got on hold.
	At that time, pursued counseling.
	Oh, this was your individual counseling.
	You wanted to do couples, she wanted you to do individual, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	And then there was a moment in the second couples counseling session... Wait, sorry, couples?
	I'm sorry to jump in, I just want to make sure I understand.
	I thought you wanted couples, she wanted you to do solo, but then you did end up doing couples?
	Yeah, so I did it solo for probably three months.
	And then, um, it took another, so after that, another probably two, two months to wrangle her into couples when my individual counselor recommended we do couples.
	And your individual counselor was the guy who was like, here's how to wrangle your wife.
	He was, here are mitigation strategies to not lose your mind.
	To not lose your money.
	Your mind, my mind.
	Oh, your mind.
	Sorry.
	Emotional.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And I don't want you to divulge anything too personal, but what, uh, can you give me an example of a strategy that he would have come up with?
	Oh, I already did.
	This is the one I've like defer a conversation when she's super upset.
	So she'll come back happy.
	Um, so if she was blowing up about something, instead of engaging with her, I would just find some way to walk away or.
	And did they work these strategies?
	They worked for me as far as, um, my level of ability to handle her.
	They didn't help the relationship.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Because you're just managing a fire.
	You're not able to put it out.
	Okay.
	Right.
	There wasn't, she like many times her goal was to express at me, there was no communication.
	To express, sorry, to express what?
	At me, like.
	Oh, to vent and act out.
	Yeah, right.
	So.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	And then you go to couples counseling and that's neither of the counselors that you guys have had individually.
	Is that right?
	Correct.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So we.
	And how did that go?
	Well, the, so there was in the second counseling session, the counselor made a point to her that She had not looked at me since the session had started.
	I mean, this was like over a half hour in 45 minutes.
	And I was trying to connect with her emotionally during the session and she was laser focused at convincing the counselor she was right.
	And I, I wasn't in the room with her.
	Right.
	So, and that, that to me was like a wake up call.
	Um, and I asked the counselor, you know, what, like how long do you think It'll take for there to be an improvement.
	And she's like, you know, this is a takes a while.
	It takes effort.
	I just straight up told her, I was like, I don't have that long.
	It's not working.
	You know, like this is my hail Mary.
	Well, if there hadn't been any progress in the couple of years you guys had been, in fact, it seemed to have gotten worse, right?
	That's yes, exactly.
	So, basically, the therapist said, take her as she is, don't expect too much change, and you're like, I don't want her as she is.
	I don't want to be overly simplistic, but it was something like that?
	Oh, it was worse than that.
	It was like, I'm dying here, this is not, I'm not going to last.
	And were you, what was dying about, and I'm not disagreeing with you, I just want to make sure I understand, what was dying for you about all of this?
	What was causing the dying sensation?
	Well, just I, um, like I, I couldn't exist emotionally in the relationship.
	So when they're, when I would express things like they just sort of breezed over her, but she, you know, she, she wanted, she would complain that I wouldn't communicate, but then I would communicate and she just wouldn't like, it would go in one ear and out the other.
	Yeah, a lot of times people say, when they say you're not communicating, they mean you're disagreeing.
	No, I mean, this was like, I was self-erasing to try and make the relationship work, and I couldn't self-erase more.
	Well, you know, the problem is, I mean, one of the major problems is, so if my wife and I had the idea for A four to six month project that would be almost exclusively me and would take me away from her.
	Why would we say no to that?
	Oh, because she wants to be with you and... Yeah, because we want to be with each other and I don't want a fucking bar stool shit fest place in my house more than I want to spend time with my wife.
	Right.
	So the problem is that you guys didn't want to spend time with each other enough.
	And in fact, the project and all of this may have been a way of covering that up.
	I think.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Like it's difficult to get along with someone.
	And I listened, I was in a difficult relationship, not a terrible relationship, but you know, it had its challenges.
	And it was fantastic for my career as an entrepreneur because man, did I love spending time at work.
	I had that.
	There was a time when I was sitting at work going, you know, I can read a book here or I can read a book at home.
	I'd rather read a book here.
	Oh, that's fucked up.
	Right.
	I mean, there's that old meme, like the women say, too.
	Like, why do the husbands just sit in the car in the driveway for five minutes before coming in?
	It's like to prepare for the stress.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	So, when did you start... I mean, that's a significant dislike.
	You know, this is something, there was some billionaire, I can't remember who it was, but some billionaire's like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sail a hot air balloon around the world!
	I'm gonna fly this!
	And it's like, okay, we get it.
	You don't like your wife.
	Like, why did you just say that?
	Right.
	And it's kind of true.
	Like, a lot of human, a lot of male excellence in particular comes out of difficult females.
	Because, just rather work, right?
	So when did you start, I mean, that's active dislike is I'd rather fix up a house and spend time with you.
	I'd rather go out with friends and spend time with my husband.
	So when did that, when did that dislike really start to creep in?
	Um, that was towards when I was doing the individual counseling and getting some more self-awareness.
	It was, I became more and more aware of how bad the relationship was.
	When you set up the house project, the sort of four to six months, and how many hours a week were you spending on this, do you think?
	I know it varies to some degree, but.
	Well, the planning, planning was like, you know, 10 to 15.
	Sorry, 10 to 15 what?
	Hours a week.
	Okay.
	Between, you know, finding contractors.
	No, I get all of that.
	And what about the actual labor?
	And that includes, you know, getting the materials and all that.
	Right, right.
	The labor, I was doing probably 20, 20 to 30 hours.
	Right, so that's a lot, right?
	Yeah.
	Did she ever say, like, we're not spending time together, I miss you, or?
	No, no.
	Okay, so she didn't care.
	In fact, she was probably relieved, right?
	And was it that you guys were getting along so uncertainly that spending time together was risky?
	The time we spent together felt very forced.
	So, like, for example, she would want to go to dinner.
	I didn't like eating out, but I would go.
	You know, I wouldn't really want to be there.
	She would talk about stuff that I had no interest in.
	I would try and talk about the house.
	She didn't really care.
	It just, it wasn't, it was not great.
	Did you get a sense of foreboding?
	Like, did you get a sense of... Yes.
	If things keep going this way, it's just a matter of time.
	Yeah, that was, that feeling was probably the main one, the reason I called off the marriage plans.
	So... No, no, before then, right?
	Like the early warning system, right?
	Right.
	But this was...
	Like within the year that we had moved and bought a house.
	Um, when I was, when I started feeling that in 2020, right.
	And then the house remodel stuff was 2021.
	And so, when you started to get the feeling that if things continue, things are going to go very badly, did you have any... I mean, I guess that's when she was in counseling, you went to counseling, or was it before then?
	Like, I'm trying to figure out sort of when you got that, ooh, this is going in a very bad direction, and what happened after that feeling, but before you called off the engagement.
	Yeah, it's when I called off the engagement, when I got that feeling, and then that's when I initially started to try and push us to get into counseling.
	And I read some books on relationships.
	It was like I was looking for tools of how to work through things.
	But it wasn't getting better.
	And you have been listening to me for a long time.
	And why over in this process as a whole did you not want to call in?
	I don't remember if I put in a request or not, actually.
	Well, I mean, even if you did put in a request and didn't hear back,
	I mean, you know that sometimes when people are busy, you don't always get what you want.
	want.
	Yeah, no, I wasn't expecting that, but I did, I mean, like I said, I talked to my parents, I talked to... Yeah, but that wasn't working, right?
	That wasn't working.
	But I don't think it was my lack of effort.
	I think it was just exposing issues that I should have been more diligent about earlier.
	No, no, I'm just curious.
	Because, you know, you're calling me now, right?
	Would I rather have you call me earlier or later?
	Like, let me appeal to your project management side.
	When something's going wrong in a project, would you rather people tell you sooner or later?
	I recognize that, but what I initiated this conversation with is something that I think is different than my past ex.
	Yeah, no, I understand that, but, I mean, I'm just curious, it's just a business question, I'm just curious why you wouldn't have said, or persisted in trying to get a call in, because, I mean, I can be quite helpful with this stuff, right?
	I mean, I assume that if you read relationship books, one of the ones you read was real-time relationships, so I know a little bit about this stuff, right?
	No, I mean, I know that you could be helpful, and I was not persistent at trying to get a conversation.
	But you think you did send a request in?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	All right.
	So you put the project on hold and then what happens?
	You say we're disengaged, we're unengaged, we're not engaged anymore?
	Well, I knew that we needed to separate.
	It took her a while to have the same realization.
	I've got a two-year horror show.
	Two years to break up?
	Well, she didn't want to leave the house and I felt like it was mine.
	So it got legal.
	Sorry, you felt like it was your house?
	Had you paid for it?
	Well, I put the entirety of the down payment.
	Oh my god.
	And then you split the mortgage, right?
	Correct.
	So you put the entirety of the down payment, which I assume obviously was a lot, was it like 10-25% or something?
	Because I know some places 25% you then don't have to have insurance and stuff like that.
	Yeah, I put $140,000.
	So you put $140,000 into the house and you put her name on half of that $140,000.
	So you basically gifted her $70,000 without being married.
	and you put her name on half of that 140,000, so you basically gifted her 70k without being
	married.
	Right.
	So then, did she agree that you needed to break up when you first sort of suggested that or thought that?
	She did not.
	So she thought everything was good and you should get married?
	Um, she's...
	She was not... she did not want to set and break up the relationship.
	So she...
	No, but she... did she want to get married?
	you Well, she, um, she spent probably another six months trying to figure out how to make the relationship work with me.
	And I wasn't interested in pursuing the relationship.
	I was trying to separate.
	But why, why would that be six months?
	Cause she's obstinate.
	I don't know.
	No, no, but I mean, you're in the house, so you're not right.
	No, we were both in the house.
	We, I had.
	Moved to a separate room.
	Did you not want to leave the house because you were concerned that you might not get it back?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So things really were ugly at this point, right?
	Like you thought she might steal your house.
	To me, it felt like if I'd left, I would give up.
	Give up the house?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Right.
	Right.
	So now this has turned into like War of the Roses, Battle to the Death almost stuff, right?
	Yeah, the police were called three times, three or four times.
	The police were involved?
	Why?
	I called a couple of times for my safety.
	Safety?
	Sorry, this is new information.
	Safety how?
	What do you mean?
	She would just explode emotionally and I felt it pertinent to have an official there for record.
	So tell me what you mean by explode emotionally.
	For example, um, um, the, like I was going to visit my parents.
	Um, the, she put a lock on the master bedroom that she was staying in and I, there were clothing that I needed to go visit my parents that were still in the master closet that she wouldn't give to me.
	And I would be.
	Very persistent that I need access to my stuff so that I can take my trip, that I have planned, that you know about, that I forewarned you about, that you agreed to give me this stuff about.
	And so then I would call the police to have them negotiate that situation.
	Like, look, here's the situation.
	I've let her know she's being a bitch and just not letting me access to the things that she's put behind a locked door that are mine.
	And, and so, um, uh, it was, it was very ugly.
	Wow.
	That's, that's quite a tail hole.
	I'm so sorry.
	Like, that's just, you got to call the cops so you can get access to your underwear.
	That's pretty, that's pretty appalling.
	I'm so sorry.
	What a mess.
	Now, how long, uh, so you, you told me you want to break up and how ugly or how quickly did it get ugly?
	It took a while to get ugly because she was still trying to make things work.
	And what was she doing to make things work?
	Uh, not much.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	I mean, I, I, I basically, I wrote a letter.
	It was like, you know, I'll pay you this much.
	You'll give me mine with house and we'll, you know, separate and, um, uh, the, I felt like we needed time separated if there's any chance of making things work, and she didn't want that.
	Oh, so you were trying the Hail Mary of, honey, all you have to do is sign over the house and move out, and I'm totally going to work on the relationship.
	No, well, I did that later.
	No, but was that true?
	I mean, did you want the relationship at that point?
	No.
	So you were just trying to, I'm not criticizing, but you were trying to maneuver her into getting out of the house and signing it back to you with the promise that maybe the relationship could resolve or improve or be restarted, but you had no intention of that.
	Yeah.
	It started with, we just need to spend time apart.
	And then it became, it was like, no, no, no.
	Like I'm going to do anything I can to get you out of here.
	Including lying about we'll only get married if you move out.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And so what happened then?
	Uh, so tried negotiating with her.
	Then she sent me a, a legal letter that had false information to pressure me.
	I lawyered up.
	Um, I tried to go to false information.
	Well, she made accusations, um, um, about things that she alleged that I was, that I had done that were abusive.
	Um, Oh yeah.
	So a woman wants property and claims abuse.
	Right.
	Never seen that before in the history of the universe.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So I, I lawyered up, um, then after, um, probably eight months of trying to, to settle with her, with her basically being completely obstinate.
	Um, and I filed with the court for, um, basically for the court to adjudicate the separation of the property.
	And, um, she, you know, she had to be drug in there, kicking and screaming.
	And once we, we got a judge, um, then she settled once we had a court date.
	And was it similar to what you'd offer in the beginning or had it changed?
	What she ended up getting was not much different than what I initially offered,
	but the legal fees were obviously quite a bit higher.
	And how did you, how much money did you spend on lawyers?
	$35,000.
	Right, right. Which was kind of half the value of the split of the house, right?
	So I paid, yeah, it cost me $75,000 to get rid of her.
	So you actually came out as a loss?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	So why didn't you, easier to say in hindsight, I get this and I'm, well, I didn't come out as a loss to the house.
	So in that regard, I'm still well on head because the house has gained in value.
	And I have a low, uh, like a 2.6 30 year fixed.
	I mean, like that, uh, I was able to keep my mortgage.
	So, but you were lucky in a way.
	And, and the risk was immense.
	Yes.
	And the risk was, in particular, the charges of abuse, right?
	Yeah, well, that didn't make it to court.
	That was just a legal threat.
	I know!
	But if she had gone to the police... Yeah, I mean, that was part of the reason I called the police on a couple occasions, is because I established a record of her behavior.
	as a problem.
	Was it worth it, do you think, in hindsight?
	I mean, if you just walked away and said, look, that was an expensive lesson, but sometimes they are.
	I don't know.
	I mean, it would have definitely been faster and I would have saved myself a year and a half.
	Two years and $35,000 and fear and sleeplessness.
	And right.
	I mean, so I, yeah, I mean, But I, I basically, if I would have just walked away, um, I would have lost like 90 to a hundred thousand in this way.
	I lost 30,000, but it cost me a lot.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, you're also, I mean, I assume somewhat traumatized and it's tough to trust, right?
	It's definitely going to be more difficult to trust now, yes.
	Right, right.
	I mean, there's lots of soft costs in life, right?
	And this is two years where you would have been functionally unable to date, right?
	Because you would have been too tense and upset, right?
	So you did lose two years of dating, right?
	Yes.
	So that's a pretty big cost, right?
	Right.
	I mean, this is my personal perspective.
	This has nothing to do with right or wrong at all.
	You could have been totally in the right.
	My general perspective is, and I actually have done this, is just, yeah, if the money's more important to you than me, keep the money.
	I could always make more.
	Yeah, no, and I mean, my mom suggested that.
	And I don't know, for me, there was something about given up on the house that I didn't want to do.
	It would feel like losing morally.
	Oh, morally, okay.
	Oh, because, yeah, she was acting so badly and this that and the other, right?
	Well, and I felt like she'd steal it from me, right?
	Like, you're a bitch and therefore you get to... But it's not stealing if her name is on the lease, is it?
	Her name is on the property deed.
	Yes, yes, yes.
	But I put the entirety of the down payment.
	No, no, no, no.
	You voluntarily put her name on the deed.
	I'm aware.
	So let's be clear.
	It's not stealing.
	I didn't say it was stealing.
	No, but there was a moral element to it, right?
	Yeah.
	The moral element was, I feel like, I mean, I knew I was being exploited.
	Let's, I mean, right.
	How are you being exploited by a choice you made?
	Cause her goal was to get as much money out of me as possible.
	Okay.
	And you had a chance to vet her for a couple of years before you put her name on the deed.
	Yes.
	So you can't play the victim.
	I mean, you can.
	I'm just telling you that it's not going to be good for your future.
	You can't play the victim with choices you voluntarily made.
	Nobody put a gun to your head.
	You had a chance to vet her, right?
	You could have called me and I could have told you about all these red flags.
	So you made specific choices, and I know this is annoying and frustrating and so on, but you called me for 150% self-ownership, right?
	Right.
	You made these choices.
	And I'm not denying that I made the choices.
	You said you were exploited.
	No, I said I felt exploited.
	Okay, and I'm telling you that feeling is incorrect.
	That feeling is self-pity and that feeling is an abandonment of your free will.
	And that's not healthy, in my humble opinion.
	I am 150% responsible for every bad relationship and good relationship I've ever had.
	Because I accept my parents, which I didn't choose, right?
	Or family members when I was a kid, because I didn't choose any of that.
	But you chose her.
	And you chose her When you've been listening to a philosopher for many years who'd said, love is our involuntary response to virtue if we're virtuous, and you chose her despite the fact you couldn't name one of her virtues!
	So you're like a guy whose, you know, his trusted health expert is like,
	smoking is really bad for you, smoking is really bad for you, here's the proof, blah blah blah blah blah,
	and then you say, well I smoked for 30 years, now I'm sick and I'm victimized, I've been exploited.
	You had better advice that you chose not to take.
	Now, there's nothing wrong with that.
	I mean, we all don't take good advice, right?
	Without a doubt.
	We all don't take good advice from time to time.
	Well, or have difficulty mapping the abstractions onto my life choices.
	I mean, there's also some amount of skill that you have that is not as common.
	I'm aware that it takes me quite a bit of work to apply this to my life.
	Okay, so do you accept that virtue is necessary for love?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Did you accept it when you first heard the argument that I made many, many, many, many years ago?
	No, I don't think I use a different definition for love.
	And what was your definition of love?
	It was more of the religious definition.
	And what's that?
	The, uh...
	Like, you're religious to me.
	the...uh...like you're religious to me.
	I mean, the religious definition could mean many things to many people, many denominations, many interpretations, many Bible verses.
	What does the religious definition of love mean to you?
	And I say this without opposition, I really do want to know.
	It was the shared desire to become one whole with another person because you respect and are aligned with them.
	And Um
	Yeah, yeah, I had heard your definition but I didn't I didn't articulate that as the way to live my life
	I'm.
	I'm going to go ahead and close this out.
	Okay, so that's fine.
	So, I mean, obviously, that's an argument I'm making and I can't obviously compel people to accept it.
	So you said that your definition of love was when you respect your partner and are aligned with their values, right?
	Or your values are aligned with each other?
	Yes, values and goals are aligned.
	Okay, and by your definition of love, were you in love?
	And don't say I thought I was, because you said the red flag from the beginning, right?
	Forget my definition, right?
	That's totally fine, right?
	But by your definition, were your values and goals aligned, and did you respect her?
	Yeah, I respected her.
	I thought that our values and goals were aligned.
	Okay.
	And we can go back to, like, when I asked you what you valued about her, the virtues and values and so on that she had, right?
	Which is a similar way of saying, what do you respect about her?
	You couldn't come up with anything, really.
	Right?
	There was, she works hard, she works out.
	But there was nothing in particular of virtue in that.
	But you... I mean, when I say values, that's like a hierarchy of how people spend their time.
	That's how they choose... No, no, let's focus on the word respect.
	We can get to values, but... So what did you respect about her and respect I mean, it's another one of these complicated words.
	I respect the power of a bear.
	That doesn't mean I want to marry a bear, right?
	Right.
	I respect that sharks are chew monsters, so I choose not to swim where there are lots of them around, right?
	So, I'm not... the word respect... now, isn't it the case, though, that in...
	The religious sense respect has to do with virtues.
	You would respect piety, you would respect people who hold the Ten Commandments, who hold Jesus in their hearts, who try to do the right thing in a fairly demonic world.
	I mean, wouldn't respect in the religious sense also be conjoined with virtues?
	And there's no commandment that says thou shalt work out, right?
	So that's like her being fit or whatever is not a virtue in the religious sense.
	They would be the qualities of the soul and of the character and of the morals, wouldn't it?
	Yeah, but I mean more the deferral of gratification, the discipline, respect for individual health.
	Sorry, none of those are commandments.
	and none of those are commanded virtues in the Christian sense. There's no down-shelter workout.
	So, help me understand this respect for virtues and values to say, in the religious sense, as if that's very different from the moral sense that I put forward.
	So, again, I'm happy to hear what religious virtue she embodied.
	Was she herself a Christian?
	No.
	Oh, was she religious?
	I don't know about you, but you're… Sorry, was she religious?
	No.
	Okay, so what are you talking about, like, I loved her in a religious sense, but she wasn't religious?
	No, you asked me how I define love and I said I thought my definition had come much more from my parents.
	From religion.
	Right, but religion says love virtues.
	It doesn't say love a bubble butt because she's done a lot of lunges.
	Or love that she might be a workaholic.
	It doesn't say any of that, right?
	It says love someone for their virtues.
	Now, the virtues might be a little different, but basically the message would be the same, right?
	I wouldn't describe...
	If I was to describe it to somebody, I wouldn't say it's love virtues.
	Well, but...
	You talk about respect in a religious sense, that you got your sense of love, which is respect and value alignment from a religious sense, right?
	But religion would absolutely say you shouldn't just love the flesh, I mean it's fine if somebody's healthy and all of that, but you should love their virtues, right?
	You should love their morals, you should love their honourable standing with God's commandments, right?
	Right.
	So, the question then is if Your attraction to this woman and your professed love for this woman didn't match your own values.
	And this is the central question, right?
	Because I want you to be happily married, I want you to have kids if that's what you want, all of that.
	So then the question is, why did you date her?
	Why did you move in?
	Why did you get engaged?
	Why did you put her name on the deed?
	What was driving it?
	Because it wasn't love by either your or my definition.
	So what was driving that?
	And I don't know the answer to that, but that's what I've been asking all these questions for, is to get to this point.
	Yeah.
	I think some of it was just, I felt like I finally found somebody that shared my goals and aspirations and who was an adult who I could work with.
	Okay, so please help me understand what goals and aspirations she actually shared.
	Anyone can say anything, right?
	As a project manager, you know people lie a lot, right?
	I mean, project managers and, I guess, House MD, when we're a project manager, we know that people misrepresent, lie, fudge, promise, don't deliver.
	Like, we see, unfortunately, the squirmy, squinticle-teg-weasel brain of humanity quite a bit, right?
	As I spent many years as a project manager in the tech world.
	So, what were the values that Because she didn't love you, right?
	Because she didn't love you, because she didn't really want to spend that much time with you, and then she threatened you, and threatened you with jail, and destroying your reputation, and went after your house, your money.
	That's very predatory, right?
	It became clear that she thought that I was the best she could do.
	Okay.
	So she didn't love you.
	But she wasn't with me for who I was.
	She didn't love you, right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Did you love her?
	And please don't say I thought I did.
	Cause then we're right back to the beginning.
	Um, I, I thought that she was somebody that I could have a family with and could work with and could care for and who cared for me.
	So, so you thought you did.
	I mean, I wouldn't have proposed to her if I didn't think that she was someone that I could spend my life with.
	Okay.
	So, if you make excuses about the past, you condemn the future.
	I'm just telling you that straight up.
	Right?
	So, like, whenever I did big projects, we'd do a post-mortem and figure out what we could do better next time.
	But if we just said we did everything perfectly, nothing would change or improve, right?
	Right.
	So, it's tough to look back and say, I messed up.
	But if you don't do that, you can't fix anything going forward.
	Because if it was like, well, I thought I loved her, I thought she loved me, and we were together for years, and then it turned into hell, and there was no way I really could have known ahead of time, and all of that, right?
	Yeah, that's not what I'm saying.
	I'm agreeing that there were Things that I overlooked, things that I didn't pay attention to.
	Yes, but why?
	That's the question.
	Saying that I messed up without knowing the why doesn't solve the problem.
	I know some of the why.
	Some of the why was I had searched for a long time.
	This was someone who was head and shoulders above everybody else that I had dated.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	It has to be something that won't reproduce, right?
	So now when you go looking for a woman, you'll have been searching for even longer.
	So if you say, well, I got together in this absolutely catastrophic and highly toxic and dangerous relationship, and it was, right?
	Two years with battles, including threats of criminal activity, potentially, and lawyers.
	That's a catastrophe, right?
	So it has to be something that you understand about yourself that won't reproduce in the future.
	And if you say, well, I've been looking for a long time.
	Well, now you've been looking for even longer.
	So you're going to be even more susceptible to that problem.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	So why did you end up in this situation?
	How do your parents resolve conflicts?
	Was there any template in the past?
	Um, my parents are pretty good at talking through their conflicts.
	Um, as far, I mean, the, the, the ones that I've seen, um, uh, around and, and honoring, if they make agreements, they stick to them.
	So, but did they also teach you that a lot of the world doesn't think like that at all?
	No, not.
	Not really.
	Did you grow up in a mostly white or European or kind of mono culture, or were you exposed to other ways of thinking around the world that can be quite different?
	I was definitely exposed to other ways of thinking when I went to the international school.
	Oh yeah, sorry.
	You're absolutely right.
	I completely forgot about that.
	Okay.
	So did your parents say to you that other cultures may have different approaches to things than what you're used to?
	I mean, it's kind of how different cultures, and some may be better, some may be worse, but it's definitely different, right?
	We never, we've never actually really talked about cultures in that way.
	They're, I mean, they're also engineers.
	They, they would be more, they would give some specifics of challenges that they had.
	So like my dad would talk about the corruption problems that he faced.
	Um, and how he would address them, but it wasn't, it wasn't so much on culture.
	It was, um, it was more analytical.
	Okay.
	And your parents, did they give you any warnings or cautions?
	about your girlfriend.
	I know you said that they had some questions, but what were their objections or questions?
	Those weren't expressed until after we were engaged.
	Okay, and what did they say then?
	They were concerned with her ability to be supportive and her emotional connection with me.
	And the fact that she was sort of all over the place emotionally was something that they were worried about.
	And they were right about that, right?
	They were, yes.
	And do you know why they didn't say anything?
	I mean, did you tell them, hey, I'm putting her name on the deed to the house?
	Uh, no. I did not.
	It seems to me that you were hiding a bit from your parents, hiding some information, right?
	I... You didn't talk too much about the yelling that was going on in your fiancé's family, you didn't say, hey, I'm taking a massive step of taking my life savings and pouring it into a relationship with this woman?
	Yeah, I should have talked about that with them.
	So why do you think you didn't?
	Again, not big criticism, I mean, it's tough to make good decisions without feedback, right?
	Yeah, I guess I didn't see it as that much of a decision, because my thought process was, if we get married, she gets half the house, I'm planning to get married to her.
	I didn't, at that time, I just didn't... No, but why hide it?
	I mean, it is a big decision, right?
	And, yeah, you know, hey, we're buying this house, I'm putting her name on the deed, I'm that confident about the relationship.
	Why not say it?
	Why not say her parents yelled at each other a lot?
	And I don't know that that's good conflict resolution skills that I'm getting into.
	What do you think?
	Just I don't like it just that the the decision on putting her on the title was
	um Not a decision I had planned for a long time the
	Not having the discussion about the parents, I don't know, it just didn't come up.
	Well no, my god, it can't come up, you're holding information that they don't have, right?
	Like if you're managing someone and they're completely unable to make their deliverable, and they don't tell you anything about it, and then they say, well it didn't come up, what would you say?
	Yeah, it's my job to ask them about the deliverable.
	I can't imagine, I can't guess what you know that you're not telling me.
	Right but i. I don't know. I am.
	I might have brought it up, maybe I didn't talk about it in detail.
	It's been years.
	I'm sure I mentioned in passing meeting her parents, the rest of that conversation.
	Okay, but wouldn't your parents say, oh, I met her parents, wouldn't they say, well, tell us what they're like?
	We've, you know, we've been your parents for more than a quarter century, like, we want to make sure you're happy and safe and, like, tell us what her parents are like, because, you know, there's a pretty big cultural divide and history, you don't even speak the same language, like, what if you noticed and all that, right?
	Wouldn't they sit you down and try and help you?
	They wouldn't sit me down because we live different towns, but.
	Oh, man, let's not, let's not get lost in these kinds of ridiculous details.
	I don't mean physically sitting you down.
	Yeah, I understand.
	So the, I'm sure I've talked about her parents at some point to my parents.
	Like I said, maybe I did mention it and they, or I mentioned it in a muted manner that they didn't pick up on it.
	Like.
	No, no, it's their job though.
	Right.
	How long have they been married?
	35, a while.
	Okay, a while.
	And do they come, I guess they're both Europeans, right?
	They're both whites?
	They're Caucasian, yeah.
	And is one of them Irish and, sorry, is one of them German and one of them Italian?
	So my dad's a quarter Italian, and then my mom's probably German.
	I don't know.
	Her family's been in the U.S.
	for a long time.
	And did they grow up in roughly the same cultural environment?
	East coast, west coast.
	Okay, but still American, right?
	Okay, got it.
	So, I mean, they have a lot of compatibilities, they have a lot of shared history.
	This is part of the conservative thing, which is saying, you know, like, if you go very far afield, it can be really tough.
	To have the same kind of mindset, right?
	And we can say that's right or that's wrong or whatever, but that's generally the conservative mindset.
	So, your parents would know, based upon their own experiences and their compatibilities culturally, that you were taking a very, very different path, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, so if you're taking a very, very different path, I think it's somewhat incumbent upon your parents to do some vetting, right?
	It's tough for you to do the vetting because you're a young man, you're getting regular sex, you're pair bonding physically, and so on, right?
	So this is one of the reasons why the elders' feedback on potential marriages is pretty important, right?
	Because they can see beyond, you know, I'm not saying it was only lust, but you know, some of the lust of the moment, right?
	Right.
	How much did they grill you about this potential marriage?
	Not that much.
	Okay, how much?
	Um.
	They were more interested in how I was doing emotionally.
	Well, at least later when I was clearly not doing well.
	When we they were trying to be positive and supportive, but they
	weren't very inquisitive.
	And what lessons, did you get any relationship lessons from your parents that
	were explicit and that you sort of think about or still find value to this day?
	I've done a lot of...
	Bye.
	I've gotten life lessons, but not really relationship lessons.
	Like lessons like, like the business and so on?
	Or, or, um, you know, don't care about things that you can't change, um, stuff on being responsible for your health.
	Um, um, how to, some risk, risk management stuff, you know, personally.
	I have a lot of respect for my dad, but my parents haven't really talked about their relationship that much.
	Does that answer your question?
	Yeah.
	I mean it's not a huge amount right?
	I mean it certainly wasn't enough to help you avoid this catastrophe right?
	I mean, this has cost you, I mean, the legal stuff has just wound down recently, right?
	Uh, 2023.
	Yeah.
	So it's been a year.
	Okay.
	It's been a year and there's been no more movement on that, right?
	She's, she's done and dusted.
	So we, we got a, basically a binding settlement.
	And then she vacated and I paid her and it was up.
	And you haven't heard from her since?
	Right.
	Okay, good, good.
	Well, I'm glad she's not circling, circling back.
	Okay.
	She, yeah.
	Uh, she, she can't.
	Oh, you have a no contact?
	No, but, um, I mean, I blocked her and I'm very clear that I have no interest in communicating with her.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	And was it, so it was a year ago, and when did you start dating after that?
	So we got our settlement in August, she moved out by September, and I restarted dating in like December.
	Well, more like February though, because I was out of town.
	So it really has only been six or seven months since it really wound down, right?
	I mean, emotionally, I was out of my relationship with her for a long time, but as far as not seeing her... You're bound in the court, so you're not emotionally free, right?
	Yeah, but as far as not seeing her, it's been six months.
	Okay, so let's go on a date, you and I, right?
	So we're going on a date, we're sitting across from dinner at a coffee shop, right?
	Your self-contradictory dinner at a coffee shop?
	No, or a coffee shop.
	Dinner or a coffee shop.
	Okay.
	So, now you're interested in contradictions, right?
	Okay.
	So, we're sitting across and I look fabulous, as always.
	As always.
	As always.
	And so you, you know, you tell me about this relationship, right?
	Which is a huge red flag for a woman, right?
	That you ended up in a pitched two-year legal battle with your ex-fiancé.
	Right?
	This is what it's really costing you, and this is why I'm really trying to hammer the free will, personal responsibility stuff.
	Because I assume...
	You're going to tell this story to somebody you want to date, right?
	If you just don't get along, who cares, right?
	So, I'm sitting across the table from you.
	You tell me, basically, some sanitized, shortened version of, I just, you know, six months ago finished a two-year pitched bloody legal battle with my ex-fiancé, where she threatened me with lurid tales of abuse that were false, right?
	What do I think as the woman sitting across the table from you?
	Yeah, it doesn't speak well of my character or ability to vet, and the fact that I decided to go through that rather than just walk away as soon as possible is... No, no, the fact that you got into that situation at all is the red flag.
	Right, that's what I said.
	No, that you decided not to walk away.
	No, I said both of those things.
	Okay, so there's a big red flag and that's the price, right?
	So you say, well, I've got a 2.9% 30-year mortgage and I, you know, I only spent 35 grand, but the house value has gone up 80 or 90 grand.
	So that's the engineer way of looking at it, right?
	Which is the spreadsheet, right?
	Right.
	And that's true, right?
	I get that.
	But the problem is a quality woman, right?
	A woman who, you know, is Sharp, acute, curious, wise, is going to look at this tale with a kind of creeping horror, right?
	I mean, if you were sitting across from a woman in her 30s and she said, I just got out of a two-year bloody-knuckled legal battle with my ex-fiancee a couple of months ago, what would you think?
	I would have some concerns about emotional availability.
	Would you go on a date with her again?
	Uh...
	Probably not.
	Especially if she said, I was exploited.
	You took advantage of me.
	So, okay, so, but, I mean, I was curious about this.
	I mean, you said my feeling was wrong.
	Well, so, look, I'm exploited is not a feeling.
	Mad, sad, bad, and glad, those are kind of feelings, right?
	That's a judgment.
	That's a moral judgment.
	Exploitation is a moral judgment, and that's an intellectual act.
	So, it's not even really a feeling.
	It's a moral judgment, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I was mad about it.
	I mean, you don't go to the dentist and they say, do you have any pain in your mouth?
	And they say, well, I feel exploited.
	Like they would say, well, no.
	Do you have any direct sensation?
	Do you have an actual feeling?
	Right.
	Right.
	I felt, yeah, I felt taken advantage of.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	So if the woman said, and I'm paraphrasing a little here, and this is kind of goatee, but I really want to get to this.
	So if The woman said, I had this horrible relationship that went on.
	So start to end for you guys was half a decade, is that right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So I was in this half a decade relationship that collapsed into vicious, bloody knuckled legal fights that have just ended, and it was all his fault.
	I was a perfect innocent angel.
	I couldn't have seen it coming.
	It was all his fault.
	He's the bad guy.
	I was exploited.
	I'm the victim.
	And I'm paraphrasing, so I know you can shade that away if you want.
	But if that's what you get, what would you think?
	No, I would say that's crazy.
	I know you have choice in the decisions that were made, and obviously blaming the other party is not true.
	Right.
	You can't be exploited without fraud or force.
	You can't.
	Yeah.
	You can have buyer's remorse, you can whatever, right?
	But you can't be exploited without fraud or force.
	And it can't be fraud if you have two years to veter before you move in, or a year and a half, or four, fifteen months, right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	So, there's only one way to have this hag of an ex not sitting over your shoulder scaring
	off all the good women.
	That's that's what I'm calling.
	Right.
	And that's why I keep bringing this thing up and you keep fighting me on it, which is fine.
	I'm just telling you there's only one way that a woman is going to accept this horrifying half-decade of yours.
	Yeah, I take ownership for the My failings.
	It's all me.
	100% me.
	I met her.
	I dated her.
	I chose her.
	I ignored the red flags.
	I kept information from friends and family.
	I lied to her.
	I mean, you feel exploited.
	You were promising her marriage if she moved out.
	Yeah, no, that... My behavior towards the end... I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I'm just saying it's a bit precious to hear how exploited you were.
	Yeah, no, it was pretty shitty behavior.
	Again, right or wrong, it's a desperate situation, whatever.
	But, if you can't say, here's all the things I did wrong, it's been the toughest lesson of my life.
	By God, I'm never doing that again.
	Here's everything I learned about all the mistakes I made.
	That's the only way that hag gets banished off your shoulder and stops scaring off quality women.
	That's the only way.
	And that's why I keep saying, what do you mean you're a victim?
	You made choices.
	It's on you.
	You withheld information from your parents.
	You didn't call me.
	You didn't write.
	You made all the choices that ended up in this situation.
	And I'm not saying that because I want you to feel bad about yourself.
	I'm saying that because I want a quality woman to not look at you and say, check.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Because a quality woman is going to hear you blame your ex and she's going to be like, okay, so he doesn't really have self-ownership.
	He blames other people for things that go wrong in his life.
	And it ends really in a really ugly fashion.
	So he's not, I can't pair bond with him.
	With him, he's not safe to be around.
	As the project manager, who's responsible for the failure of the project?
	I am.
	Right.
	Now, if you say, oh, well, but the vendor didn't deliver on time, what do people say?
	A lot of times it's still my fault.
	Well, you chose the vendor, right?
	Not always, but... Well, no, let's, come on, let's say that you did choose the vendor, right?
	But I mean, yeah, practical business versus theoretical.
	Theoretical, I chose the vendor.
	Yeah.
	And, and if the vendor didn't deliver, well, how, like, did you know that ahead of time?
	Did you research the history of the vendor?
	Did you check their references?
	Right.
	Were they reliable?
	Had there been a change in management?
	Like, did you vet?
	Yeah, there's, uh, yeah, fortunate or unfortunately, theoretical business never aligns well with real business, but theoretically I'm project manager and I do my risk analysis.
	And a lot of that has to do with how to pick vendors.
	Right.
	Right.
	Now, I mean, I've, I've been hired into existing teams.
	I still don't get to blame the team, even though I didn't hire them.
	Because if I'm going to take the authority and by the way, the pay, then I don't get to shirk the responsibility.
	Yeah.
	The big one is you're responsible because you're the project manager, but you don't get to be involved in a lot of the decisions.
	Well, but if you accept the position of project manager, you accept that you're responsible for the success of the project.
	Now, if you don't think you can succeed in the project, then you wouldn't take it, right?
	Or you wouldn't take the job, or you'd quit and find another job, or whatever, right?
	But the moment you say, I'm now in charge of the project, 100% of the responsibility falls on you.
	Well, yeah, if you have the authority, you have the responsibility.
	No, you have the authority always, because you can quit.
	So if people are saying, we're going to hold you accountable for things, but we're not going to give you any authority, then you quit.
	I mean, I remember once in business, they said, we want you to be team lead.
	And I said, what does that mean?
	Well, you're responsible for the team doing a good job.
	I said, okay, can I hire anyone?
	No.
	Can I fire anyone?
	No.
	Do I determine salaries?
	No.
	Am I getting any bonuses?
	Am I getting any raise?
	No.
	Then I don't want the job.
	That's not a real thing.
	Then you're giving me responsibility without authority.
	I don't want that.
	But if I take on the team lead job, then I'm responsible.
	I can't then say, well, but I don't have this, and I don't have that, and you didn't give me this authority.
	Because I took the job.
	Or I took the title, or whatever it is, and I gave people the understanding that I would be responsible for something, and I can't then later say, well, I'm not really.
	If you are given responsibility without authority, you reject the authority, and you say to people, I can't complete the project on time because I didn't choose the vendors, and the vendors are terrible.
	Now, if you give me the option to change the vendors, I might be able to deliver the project, but if you're not going to give me the option to change the vendors, I can't deliver the project, and I want you to know that ahead of time.
	That's been my primary defense, is to make it very transparent on the decisions I'm not allowed to make.
	It's usually some VP person above me tells me that I have to do.
	And I make it very clear that.
	Oh, they say like you have to use this vendor.
	Yeah.
	Or you have to complete the project in this timeline, even though your critical path is longer than that timeline.
	Right.
	Right.
	So then you have to be transparent and you may of course want to put your resume out there so that you can have more reasonable people to work with.
	Right.
	Exactly.
	Okay.
	But you, if you stay, you're a hundred percent responsible.
	Because you stay knowing that the VP gives you too short a time frame, right?
	So when I was in the business world, I mean this is very typical, the salespeople would make all the promises and they'd collect their fat checks and go to their cottages for the weekend and all the tech people would be scrambling 12 hours a day from Friday to infinity to fulfill the project requirements, right?
	Yeah.
	Leaving jobs, you're not going to be employed.
	Well no, but that's why you find a job with reasonable people, but to do that you have to be better at vetting people and your parents didn't teach you how to vet people!
	Yeah, yeah.
	I'm trying to teach you that.
	I'm trying to teach you how to vet people here.
	Because you're in the process of being vetted with this hag of an ex on your shoulder, right?
	Scaring off the women, right?
	Now, of course, I got mad at the salespeople and I went to the CEO and I said, this is unfair, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and, you know, and things changed a little bit, but then they would change back and so on, but I'm 100% responsible because I stayed.
	So, what is life like if you just say, you don't have excuses, you don't have the out, you don't have the blame?
	What if the last half decade is all on you?
	And you say, I need to be absolutely rigorous with no excuses.
	I need to be absolutely rigorous about every bad decision I made.
	Without excuses, without blame.
	And I analyze it from pure self-ownership, 100% responsibility.
	Actually, aim for 150% responsibility because we all undershoot, right?
	What is that like?
	How would you tell the story to your date if it's all on you?
	Okay.
	You want to go back to the scenario?
	Let's go back to the scenario.
	You've just told me the story or whatever it is.
	Or how would you tell the story?
	Actually, we can just do this and we don't have to get into details because we'll assume that they're known, right?
	Because we've already talked about them.
	But how would you tell a potential date about your last half decade if it was all on you?
	Um, okay.
	I mean, I was not that attentive to her virtues or lack thereof when we started dating.
	Um, we had some shared interests and got along physically and just sort of rolled with that and, um, was ignored or didn't pay much attention to concerns that I had.
	And I didn't.
	Discuss deeply with my parents what I saw about her family and consider the ramifications for that long term on the relationship.
	And I should not have progressed the relationship by getting engaged and should have Well, I mean, I was planning to move at some point regardless, even though that put a hamper on finding somebody.
	But yeah, I'm happy with where I'm moved to.
	But I just kept pushing the relationship forward when I should have put the brakes on and addressed all of these concerns.
	And that was...
	I kept escalating the problem and my ignorance and it's my fault for putting myself in the situation that I found myself in with her as far as the house and the legal travels and even the relationship in general because it should never have got to that point.
	I appreciate that.
	I'll play the woman.
	I appreciate that and, you know, I'm a little confused because, I mean, do you believe in universal virtue?
	Do you believe in virtue and morality as a whole?
	I mean, some people don't, right?
	They're relativists or whatever, right?
	Do what you want.
	I don't know what you mean by that.
	Do you believe in universal morality?
	Do you believe in virtue?
	That there is such a thing?
	I believe that there's good characteristics.
	Okay, so then I would get up and leave.
	Honestly, as a woman, I would get up and leave.
	Right, because if you can't say to me that you believe in virtue, then I can't trust you.
	Because you don't have any reason to tell the truth, you don't have any reason to be honorable, you don't have any reason for moral courage, you don't have any reason for better standards of behavior, you can't be called on any deviation from the good.
	So I'm out.
	Like, the moment somebody hesitates, I'm just telling you, the moment somebody hesitates and, well, you know, there are good characteristics, I don't really believe in virtue, I don't believe in morality, and it's like, then I can't pair bond, because we pair bond on virtue.
	Because virtue is trust, right?
	Here are my standards, and if I deviate from them, you can call me on them, and then I will return to them.
	That's how you define virtue.
	That's not how a lot of other people define virtue.
	Well, but you're calling me!
	No, but if I'm on a date with somebody... And if you're calling me to tell me there's no such thing as virtue, why on earth would I have the conversation?
	But if I'm on a date with somebody who wants to talk philosophy... What you're saying is that you don't believe in... you don't accept UPB, is that right?
	If I'm on a date with somebody that wants to talk philosophy, And I've never talked philosophy with them before, I'm going to want to delve into the meaning of the words that they're using, because I want to know if we're talking about the same things.
	Well, do I believe in universal virtue?
	I do, but I'm not sure how you define virtue, but I certainly believe in universal virtue.
	Okay, I believe that there are universal virtues that people should aspire to.
	So you believe in universal morality?
	Yes.
	Okay, good.
	So, for how long have you believed or accepted that there is universal morality?
	I guess as long as I can remember.
	Okay.
	So, you said you didn't care about your girlfriend's virtues, in particular.
	So, if you believe in universal morality, but then you date someone without them without even really inquiring as to their virtues,
	then I'm not sure what you mean when you say you believe in it. Like if I was 300 pounds and I
	said I'm a strenuous believer, for my entire life I've believed that it's super important
	to diet and exercise, but I'm 300 pounds, wouldn't you have some questions?
	Well of course, but when I initiated dating my ex, as far as I could tell, she was a fairly virtuous person.
	Okay, so did she also believe in universal morality?
	We never had that discussion.
	So how would you know?
	And why wouldn't you ask?
	I mean, you believe in it, and I assume it's essential for trust and pair bonding, so why wouldn't you ask?
	I mean, you said that the fact that she exercised was important to you, so obviously that that was important.
	You saw that she was a hard worker, that was important.
	Like, why wouldn't you talk about I mean, don't you want a virtuous woman to raise your children?
	That's a pretty... No, because you're choosing for your kids, right?
	You're not just choosing for your balls, right?
	You're choosing for your kids.
	And don't you want a loving, honorable, virtuous, honest woman to raise your kids?
	Yes, everybody wants that.
	Okay, so why wouldn't you ask or check?
	If she believed in morality.
	I guess I don't know how to do that.
	No, because you said a lot of people don't, right?
	Right.
	So you know that there's a big risk that somebody doesn't believe in universal morality, right?
	Is it part of the Chinese culture to believe in universal morality?
	Not particularly.
	Okay, so she comes from a culture that doesn't believe in universal morality.
	Universal morality is something you believe in, it's something that's essential for your children, but you don't ask?
	Did you ever get any advice from anyone in the world, maybe a speckle-headed philosopher, did you ever get any advice from anyone ever in the world that said it was important to have conversations about morality before fully committing to someone?
	Yes.
	And you chose to ignore that advice?
	I don't know how to do that.
	What do you mean?
	I just showed you.
	I asked, do you believe in universal morality?
	What do you mean?
	You don't know how to do that?
	You just ask, right?
	Okay.
	Okay.
	I mean, it's important to you.
	It's important for your kids.
	So you, you would focus, I mean, on a date, you would ask the philosophical question and not, maybe this is just me being bad at dating, but I've always tried to find how people express their values instead of just asking what their values are.
	How can I express values if you don't even know what they are?
	How can I express honesty if I don't have the value called honesty is a virtue?
	I mean, when you did this renovation, didn't you say you spent a lot of time planning?
	Why didn't you just buy some shit and throw it together?
	Oh, because you have to have an idea what you're doing, right?
	Yeah.
	Like, you're literally a project manager, which means you do a lot of planning, right?
	Yes.
	Which means you have to have a theoretical understanding of what's going to happen before you act on it.
	Which is what virtue is.
	You have to have a theoretical understanding of what you're doing before you act, right?
	Should I tell the truth or should I lie?
	Well, if you don't have a commitment to honesty, you'll just do what seems easiest in the moment.
	Oh, wow.
	Okay, so you... Okay, so you... This is helpful.
	So, you would... Virtue is your framework for how to behave?
	Well, sorry.
	You said you believe in universal morality.
	So, you have to know what that is, right?
	That's right, why are you asking me?
	I mean if I said I believe in X and you said what's X?
	and I said I have no idea, then you wouldn't think I was particularly honest, right?
	I believe, slash trust, since I don't see much difference, that there are
	better behaviors for the iterative game of life.
	So, preferable behaviors to use.
	So, um...
	So...
	Sorry, so you're saying that Virtue is like a game that game that gives you advantages in the game of life?
	Yes, to some extent, right?
	It's patterns of behavior that lead towards your desired outcome that are I'm also beneficial to everybody else in your life.
	And for how long have you believed this?
	I mean, prior to your girlfriend, right?
	I don't think through this stuff in the same way you do.
	So, I'm sort of fumbling around in the dark.
	You said, for as long as I remember, I believed in universal morality, right?
	And so, would you say that your relationship with your girlfriend was advantageous to your life as a whole?
	It was until we... I mean, it was generally positive in the beginning, and it was not at all advantageous in the end.
	Well, that's like a drug addict saying, well, the first couple of hits of heroin were fantastic, and then I ended up eating rats in the subway, right?
	I don't understand what you're asking.
	So, whatever approach you took with your girlfriend, if morality is that which is advantageous to your life, then you were immoral because what you did was not advantageous to your life, right?
	Right.
	So, what did you get wrong?
	My fundamental question is, what mistake did you make?
	You said, well, I didn't really check on her virtues.
	I didn't really ask her if she was like what her moral standards were or anything like that and it turns out she didn't really have any, right?
	Yeah.
	So why would you give your heart to someone with no moral standards?
	Um, I didn't know that she had no moral standards.
	Oh my gosh.
	But you didn't ask.
	And you also knew she came from a culture which you say doesn't.
	And you saw her family, her family didn't seem to be noble and upright and morally righteous and right.
	They were yelling at each other, right?
	Right.
	Okay.
	So you had every piece of evidence that this was not the case and it turned out that empirically it wasn't the case.
	So why wouldn't you ask?
	That's my question.
	Right.
	You know, the ass, right?
	Assume makes an ass out of you and me.
	Like why would you assume something that turned, why would you assume something that cost you so much when you could just ask up front?
	Especially because you had a guy you'd been listening to on the internet who said that's absolutely essential.
	Well, you're the only person I know of that would ask or would recommend asking.
	Okay, so then I would also leave because you're just making excuses.
	No, my... No, you absolutely are making excuses.
	Why do you care what other people do?
	Well, other people are doing it.
	So I guess like, are you saying it's peer pressure?
	Like you actually, you had me for years in your ear saying, check the virtues before you give your heart, right?
	No, what I'm saying is if, if I go get dating advice from someone and I get dating advice from 50 people and one of them says, Hey, try this, but it's wildly different from all the other dating advice.
	It's, it's like, Oh God, I don't know what that is, but that's very different.
	Listen, I get it.
	You don't want to live your life philosophically.
	I'm saying I've struggled to know how to do that because it's it's
	not like It's not something that is I can just i've discussed with
	people like it's not the
	i'm, i'm trying to Like I like I when you when you say apply it like I don't I
	don't know what that means Like I, cause I can't.
	Listen, don't, don't, don't listen, don't, don't get all rubber bones and don't snow job me.
	I mean, I think we're winding down here, but I just gave you the example.
	You, you ask people, uh, do you believe in morality?
	Like what are your virtues?
	Do you believe in virtue?
	Do you, what's your commitment to virtue?
	Right.
	Of course.
	Right.
	I mean, when you went to apply for your house, did you just get to sign shit and they gave you half a million dollars?
	No, they verify.
	We need to see your income, we need to see your bank statements, we need to see your credit history, like, you verify!
	That's a house, this is your heart!
	You're direct about it, and you make it very important.
	Right, and listen, so if you're gonna say, well, you know, there's 500 pieces of dating advice out there, and Steph is just one voice among 500, so he has a 0.25% chance of being right.
	That's not what I said.
	No, you said there's hundreds of people out there with dating advice.
	Yes.
	And I said that the advice that you give is quite a bit different than the other advice.
	And so it's hard for me to articulate and understand how to apply that advice when I don't have examples of it in other places.
	Do you see what I'm saying?
	If I'm trying to figure out an engineering problem and I can get five sources that each solve 20%, I can solve the whole problem.
	Right, which is why I'm 0.2%, right?
	Because I'm one out of hundreds or one out of 500 or something.
	So listen, so you need to go and talk to a couple of hundred other people and try and mingle together all the dating advice and come up with a plan.
	Because I'm the principal guy.
	Look, if you're just going to go with, well, empiricism and other people say this, that and the other, I'm the principal guy, right?
	So I reason from first principles and that's what I do, right?
	So I've got RTR, I've got UPB, I've got all of these approaches I've had obviously came from a very horrible childhood and have been, you know, joyfully happy for 21 years.
	But what do I know, right?
	So if you want to, if you don't want to live according to principles, If you don't want to live according to principles, then you can continue doing what you're doing and, you know, maybe it'll work out.
	I mean, I guess blind guys can hit a hole in one once in a while, but I'm a principle guy.
	So then if you say, well, I can't live my life based on principles, then I'm not sure what we're talking about.
	This is very frustrating to me because I'm not, I'm not being allowed to express what I'm trying to communicate to you.
	So it's my fault.
	No, it's my fault.
	You're not being confusing.
	It's my fault.
	Even though I've done thousands of these calls, it's my fault.
	I didn't say that.
	You said, I'm not being allowed to, which means that I'm in charge and I'm not allowing you to do something.
	Can I, can I express what you, I mean, you interpreted what I said a certain way.
	That's not what I was trying to express.
	Now I'm trying to correct it.
	And you, now, now you're like.
	Well, how do you know that I'm wrong?
	I've never said that you're wrong.
	Yes, you said, I'm trying to express something, and you said, Steph, you got it wrong, because you're repeating back to me, which is not what I intended.
	Yes, what you, how you have described my communication is not correctly mapping on to what I'm trying to communicate.
	How do you know?
	Maybe you're being defensive.
	That's possible.
	So when I model in a role play, here's how to ask someone about morality,
	and then you say, I have no idea how to do that, that's false, because I just modeled it.
	Now, you may not do it exactly the same way, right?
	But if I say, lefty-loosey, righty-tighty, and then you say, I have no way to know how to tighten or loosen a bolt, that's not true, right?
	Yes.
	What I'm trying to explain is, you know, when I'm envisioning a future dating situation, There's so many variables in that uncertainty that I'm trying to see when and how is the right time to use that phrase or what's a similar phrase that I can use.
	This is what I meant by the partial data.
	If I get one example, I struggle to To know how to use that one example in a situation, versus if you get a bunch of examples, then I can get a pattern, and then I can understand.
	Does that make sense?
	I'm not disagreeing the principle.
	I understand the value of the principles, and what I struggle with is how to map those principles onto my behavior.
	I don't know what any of that shit means.
	You ask people if they believe in virtue.
	Do you believe in truth?
	Do you believe in virtue?
	I mean, you just ask them that.
	Now you say, well, that's really tough.
	Okay, well, then you can go back to detonating half a decade of your life with this shit.
	Right?
	So you say there's a lot of variables, but that's why you need principles.
	Well, there's a lot of shit at the grocery store.
	Well, that's why you need the science of nutrition.
	There's an infinite number of things I can do with my body.
	Well, that's why you need the science of exercise.
	Of course, there's a lot of variables.
	That's why we have principles.
	Because if you try to live your life managing all these variables, you won't have any principles at all.
	So, I don't know, on the first date you don't corner the woman and say, give me your definition of universal morality, but if you like her, then, well, first of all, she should be asking you as well, right?
	Right.
	And you don't get into relationships without saying, OK, we're going to have disagreements.
	OK, so what's our principle for resolving disagreements?
	Right.
	Well, we don't yell, obviously.
	We don't call names.
	We don't storm out.
	We try together, you know, calmly to work it out.
	Do we have that as an agreement?
	Right.
	I mean, you don't get into a business relationship without a contract.
	I'm not saying you have a legal contract with someone you date, but you have to say, we're going to have disagreements.
	Of course we are.
	We're humans and, you know, one or both of us may be wrong or right.
	So how are we going to resolve our disagreements?
	Right?
	What have we learned?
	Well, avoidance isn't good.
	Yelling isn't good.
	Punishment isn't good.
	Withdrawal isn't good.
	Name-calling isn't good.
	Escalation isn't good.
	Threats aren't good.
	So we have to have this commitment to resolve things peacefully.
	I mean, is that an unreasonable thing to say with someone that you're considering getting into a relationship with?
	I am not usually that direct, but no, I think that's very reasonable.
	So why didn't you do that?
	Why didn't you?
	And this is the question.
	Listen, I'm trying to get you laid by a good woman, right?
	I'm trying to get you into a good relationship.
	And this confusion, avoidance, justification, defense stuff is just going to drive good women away, in my opinion.
	And I don't know what the answer is.
	We've had a long call, so we can wrap it up here.
	But I don't know what the answer is as to why You got into a relationship with a woman this destructive and stayed in it for three years plus two years of legal shit, right?
	I don't know the answer to that.
	And I'm sorry we couldn't get to the answer to that but, you know, I can't make you tell me, right?
	But that's really what I've been asking for the last 70 minutes or so, is why, when you had a philosopher giving you great advice, right?
	Because you didn't follow my advice and how did it go, right?
	Does that make sense?
	Like, you did the opposite of what I recommend, right?
	Is that fair to say?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So you did the opposite of what I recommend, and you call me up saying, help me, and then you spend two and a half hours fighting me.
	Which is kind of funny, right?
	And look, I get it.
	Look, I mean, it's recent for you.
	The difficulties with your ex are fresh, right?
	It takes, you know, at least half the time to usually get over a relationship.
	That's just a rough rule of thumb.
	I mean, it can be different or whatever, right?
	So, it's still pretty raw and you've also been in combat mode, which means self-criticism is very painful because you have to be in blaming the other to be in combat mode.
	So I sympathize with all of that.
	But...
	You did the opposite of what I advised and you were in grave danger.
	And it cost you half a decade, plus whatever time it takes to recover.
	Plus you now have this story that you have to try and wedge into future dating, which is a mess, right?
	Yes.
	So you're a whole lot worse off in many ways, because you didn't follow my advice, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And then you fight me a lot.
	I'm trying to coach you and you're fighting me a lot.
	And again, I understand that you've been in combat mode and so on, but I think at some point you need to have an answer to the question, why did you ignore good advice and put yourself in this horrible situation that's going to have significant future costs of credibility with dates?
	I don't know the answer to that.
	I mean, I'm sort of out of energy for the convo, but that's really what I was trying to get at for the last hour was, well, why?
	And there is a question about that, which is interesting, right?
	You've been listening to me since college, so you've been listening to me for, you know, close on a decade, right?
	Maybe more.
	And you didn't persist in trying to get a convo.
	I don't know if you did or didn't ask, and you can't remember particular, but... So it's funny, like, you didn't ask me for advice when it could have done you some real good and prevented this mess, and then you come and ask me for advice about dating, right?
	The whole thing has been about, not about your ex, but about you saying, I'm having trouble dating.
	And it's like, well, of course you are.
	And that's the whole thing has been about not your ex, which is the past, but the future.
	Right?
	So you're having trouble dating.
	Sure.
	Of course.
	Because if a woman says to you, looks at you, right?
	And you tell them about your history with me, you tell them about your history with what happened with this woman, right?
	And they look at you and they say, this guy seriously doesn't take good advice.
	He seriously does not take good advice.
	And even when he's getting good advice, he fights like hell.
	How trustworthy is that going to be for a woman to give her heart, mind, body, soul, loins, children, dependents, and all of that, when you don't take good advice?
	And that's fine.
	Listen, we all don't take good advice from time to time, but we need to understand why.
	Why don't you take good advice?
	I don't know the answer to that.
	And why do you fight good advice, even when you call up in desperation, right?
	I don't know the answer to that either, because we didn't get there because you wouldn't explore that.
	And that's your choice.
	And it's my choice to stay in the conversation.
	I'm certainly not any kind of victim.
	But we didn't get to the answer.
	I don't know what the answer is.
	But I think if you have that answer, and you say, okay, why didn't I follow good advice?
	Right?
	Why didn't I do The right thing by my own standards, by a philosopher that I follow, by rational standards.
	Why didn't I do the right thing?
	Now, the answer as to why I didn't do the right thing is the key to unlocking future virtue.
	And the way that we avoid saying, why didn't I do the right thing, is we fog, we gaslight, we blame, all of these kinds of things, because we just don't want to avoid that confrontation with the darker side of ourself, which may be self-sabotagey and whatever, whatever.
	And it has something to do with your parents too, because they should have been grilling you up, down, left, right and front and center, because your parents are also somewhat responsible for You're half-decade from hell, right?
	And the liability that has going forward.
	So, I don't know.
	Is it vanity?
	I don't know exactly what it is, but it takes a foundational humility to say, I just really have to follow virtue.
	I have to be honest.
	If I get good advice, I should really try to implement it.
	And if you say, well, there's lots of people giving advice and I don't even know how to map these values onto my actions or whatever, that's all just fog and nonsense, right?
	You have to... No, it takes practice to implement behavior, right?
	And if you No, it doesn't take practice to implement virtue, it just takes will.
	Like, it takes practice to learn the violin, it doesn't take practice to say, do you believe in virtue?
	That's a two-second statement.
	Okay, repeat after me, do you believe in virtue?
	Yes.
	No, repeat the phrase, do you believe in virtue?
	Do you believe in virtue?
	Look at that, you didn't need to practice that at all.
	It's not like learning Mandarin or Cantonese, I guess.
	No, but.
	See, now you're going to make it difficult again, right?
	And I don't know why you don't want, I mean, you, you think, you think that's difficult?
	How was, how was your last half decade?
	Was that easy?
	Do you do so?
	Well, I'm not trying to make it difficult.
	I'm trying to, to make a big life change.
	It's not easy.
	Right?
	Why on earth would you say that though?
	Who cares?
	It's not hard to say the words, do you believe in virtue or some equivalent, right?
	It's hard to go through the last half decade.
	That's hard.
	It's not hard to spend two seconds saying, do you believe in virtue?
	Do you believe in truth?
	How are we going to resolve disputes?
	Let's talk about that.
	It's not hard to do that physically.
	There could be some emotional barriers.
	Which is important for you.
	I mean, we didn't get to exploring why you have all these emotional barriers to asking
	simple questions about virtue and trustworthiness of others, right?
	No, we did not get to that.
	No, and you really don't want to get to that, and that's, you know, your choice, and I can't particularly fathom that, but... I would like to get to it, but I understand that that's There's not time for that.
	Well, no, you don't want to get to it, because I've really been trying to get to that for 70 minutes, and we've just been battling over this particular issue of self-ownership and all of that.
	But I think that's the big question.
	You say, well, it's tough to implement life changes.
	Physically, it's not tough to say to someone, do you believe in truth?
	Do you believe in virtue?
	How are we going to resolve disputes?
	It's not physically tough.
	There's emotional blocks, I get all of that.
	And those emotional blocks may have something to do with the carelessness of your parents or some lack of virtue in your origin story of childhood and all of that.
	But yeah, you can say it's hard.
	Well, you know, what do they say about working out?
	You know what they say about it?
	You choose your suffering, right?
	You suffer now with weight, so you suffer later.
	With back pain and obesity and joint issues and diabetes, right?
	Choose your suffering, right?
	So, I'm just saying choose your suffering, right?
	And you said one of the things about virtue that was really important to you was the deferral of gratification and having a winning life strategy.
	Okay, well, you deferred gratification because you wouldn't ask your girlfriend that you do came from a culture that, according to you, didn't respect as much universal morality.
	So, you chose to avoid these questions with her and You chose the suffering that followed, because you chose to avoid the initial suffering of, well, I'm going to ask you about virtue, she's going to give me a thousand-yard stare and change the subject, in which case I might have to break up with her five years ago instead of through lawyers.
	So, it's just choose your suffering.
	So, when you say it's hard, well, okay.
	But it's easier than this if you want a winning life strategy, if that makes sense.
	That's very… that helps me understand it.
	Yeah.
	And try, try not, you know, just in general, try not to whine too much about things being hard.
	It's hard, you know, cause it's kind of tough for women to get juiced up by that.
	So it's just, it's just a minor sort of bro to bro tip, if that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	No, I think what I think your, your point about for either historical reasons or parents, this is just not a topic that I have there any strength in.
	And so, um, I'm not even aware many times that I'm passing over or not paying attention to this area.
	Does that make sense?
	But you do know your own resistance, right?
	You know that you're resistant to the topic, right?
	Like, you wouldn't let me lead at all.
	You fought me on just about every syllable.
	You understand that you're resistant and you've done some therapy and you've listened to this show for a long time.
	So, you know, you say that self-knowledge, right?
	When I asked about the virtues of your girlfriend many moons ago, you said self-knowledge is really important.
	So, you are responsible for knowing when you're resistant and all of that.
	So, and you know, but I think you were just acting it out rather than being aware of it and saying, gee, I really dislike this topic, which is probably what we need to talk about the most. You're like, well, I
	really dislike this topic, so I'm going to gaslight and change the topic and fight and try and
	criticize and play the victim.
	So I think that's just the kind of self-knowledge you need to get to, which is where
	the things that are the toughest is probably where you most need to go.
	How would you recommend getting better at this then?
	Maybe some more talk therapy.
	Just trying to figure out where the defenses came from and why there's a disconnect between you saying the deferral of gratification is really important but not wanting to go in particular areas and fighting someone that you're calling up because of my supposed expertise.
	Alright, well listen, I really do appreciate the chat today.
	I really did find it a great workout, so I really do appreciate it, and it was very engaging, and I hope that you'll keep me posted about how it's going, and I'm very, very happy and relieved that you got out of this quagmire with your ex, because that could have gone a whole lot worse, and I'm really, really thrilled that you got out of it in the way that you did.
	Well, I mean, it would have been better if it wasn't the way, but given what happened, I'm very pleased about that, and I really do appreciate your time today.
	Is this a conversation I can get a copy of?
	Oh, yeah.
	They're all call-in shows.
	Yeah, for sure.
	I would like to listen back to it and work on it.
	Absolutely.
	I appreciate your time.
	So take care, man, and keep me posted, all right?
	Thank you very much.
	Thanks.

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