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May 14, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:36:20

SHE HUNG UP ON ME! Freedomain Call In

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	I just don't know where to start, because it's kind of complicated, and because I don't really know exactly my aim with this call, but I'm gonna try my best.
	No, so... I want children, right?
	I'm nearing my 30s, but I am not too sure that my partner is mature enough, if you know what I'm saying.
	Thank you for listening.
	But I'm also second-guessing myself.
	I'm not really sure of my own conclusions.
	I'm not really sure if, like, for example, I don't communicate clear enough or I'm just, you know, fucking Sorry for cursing.
	I'm just immature myself, you know?
	Or if I'm just maybe, you know, staring at this particular problem that won't really matter anyway.
	way. Maybe I just have expectations that I shouldn't have, you know, that sort of thing.
	So you might be a tiny bit of an over-thinker?
	Have you ever noticed that?
	Is that something fair to say?
	Yeah, but I have people telling me that.
	Yeah, that's okay.
	Well, tell me a little bit about your childhood, or a lot, your twenties, and where are you in your thirties?
	Like early, mid, late?
	Oh no, I'm going to turn 30.
	Oh, going to turn 30.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	So tell me a little bit about your life, your life so far.
	Yeah, sure.
	Uh, so life has been a bit, um, just this recent past years, I've actually started to figure out what I want to do, like career wise, um, and long-term goals and things like that.
	I have lived abroad, uh, tried it out.
	Didn't like it.
	I've been trying different jobs, like none of them.
	Now I've found something that I like.
	I'm not going to say what I'm studying because I don't want to give it away, but some kind of IT.
	I'm at a period in my life where I'm just like, okay I've had enough with the Experimenting.
	But, you know, when I say experimenting, I know what everyone's thinking, but I've had a 13 year long relationship.
	So it's not that kind of thing with dating different people and stuff like that.
	It's just I've just tried different career options, tried to also repair a lot of trauma that I've had since my childhood.
	I've gone to therapy.
	I've figured out what's important to me.
	Things like that.
	And yeah, my childhood I'm born from two immigrant parents And I would say it was pretty bad overall But somewhere around, you know, my late teens I just pretty much woke up one day and was like No, I don't want to be like this for the rest of my life.
	I don't want to I don't want to be An outcast.
	I don't want to be so freaking You know, like, I don't, I want to not fit in, but I want to, you know, get to a better place than what I had before.
	Cause I was, I was bullied, um, by both, you know, adults and peers.
	Um, and I have very few friends and I, I just, I felt awkward in my own body.
	I didn't know what to say.
	I didn't, I felt like my parents didn't really teach me anything, you know?
	They teach you some things, but they never like, for example, oh yeah, let's go and ride a bike, or I'm going to teach you how to change a tire, or I'm going to talk to you about important stuff.
	You weren't parented, right?
	I mean, they didn't give you life advice and wisdom and how to deal with things and options and approaches to take and principles to live by and morals.
	I mean, you weren't parented, is that right?
	Yeah, there were some principles and morals, but it wasn't communicated To me in a way that I was supposed to comprehend, it just kind of wasn't there.
	If you know what I mean, it was very unplanned.
	Here's the thing.
	Okay.
	So love the chat.
	I'm very happy that we're chatting.
	But you know that this is a ramble of experiences, and impressions, and thoughts, and associations.
	I don't even know the facts yet, right?
	So when communicating, right?
	I mean, you've got to start with the facts.
	So, bullied, and you had two immigrant parents who didn't teach you much about life.
	But let's start a little bit more basic.
	So your parents, they were together, they were married, they're still together, is that right?
	They divorced and got back together and lived together.
	Okay, so these are the kind of facts that I sort of need before we get all of the impressions and thoughts and associations.
	Okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	So how old were you when they divorced?
	I don't think I was born yet.
	Oh, gosh.
	Yeah.
	Well, that's not good.
	No.
	Okay, so they divorced before you were born.
	And do you know why they divorced?
	I mean, I guess they got back together.
	So they must have, I assume they said something about what happened.
	No.
	And then when I asked them, they just say, Oh, stop bothering us.
	It was so long ago.
	So I can't get it out of them.
	They just basically got together again.
	And how long were they apart?
	Gosh, I don't even know.
	They won't tell me.
	So they were back together again by the time you had memories.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	So you, you don't remember the separation time?
	No, I have no idea.
	I had no idea this happened.
	Do you know if they moved, did they move apart?
	No, they, I mean, I think they did move apart for some time, but I, I haven't, you know, you know how I found this out.
	I found it out through like a freaking, you know, document that my dad had laying around.
	Oh gosh.
	Yeah.
	So were you born, you were born and your parents were split up and then at some point they got back together when you were quite young, right?
	No, I think that they just like split up before and got back together and was like, let's have a child to glue this together.
	Oh, okay.
	So your mother was not pregnant with you when they split up, they split up, got back together, had you, and so they were together from you being pregnant and born onwards, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And did your mother stay home with you?
	As much as she could.
	What?
	What does that mean?
	Was she kidnapped?
	Was she drafted?
	Abducted by space aliens?
	What do you mean, as much as she could?
	I don't really know how it is.
	I mean, I'm sure there were economical limitations and all that.
	What do you mean?
	What do you mean, economic limitations?
	You mean she went to make money rather than raise you?
	I'm not sure.
	I still don't know how long she was home with you, though.
	Uh, do you mean like as in every day, or like how many years to stay home with me?
	Uh, I'm not sure what the difference is.
	So, she got pregnant, you were born.
	Did she... Was she a stay-at-home mother?
	And if so, for how long?
	No, she wasn't.
	And do you know how old you were when she went to work?
	Um... I mean, quite young.
	Like one year, maybe?
	Okay, and who took care of you when your mother went back to work?
	My grandma.
	Okay, and do you remember, I mean, I know one, it's pretty early to have memories, but did you get along with your grandmother?
	Was she good to you?
	Yeah, she was very nice.
	Okay.
	She was very agreeable, very, like, sort of nice, a little lady.
	Yeah, I loved her.
	She was a good influence.
	Okay.
	She wasn't around for too long, though.
	Oh, what do you mean?
	Well, she died when I was eight.
	Oh, okay.
	And when your mother went back to work, what field did she work in?
	Healthcare.
	Like a nurse or something like that?
	Yeah, something like that.
	Okay.
	Yeah, taking care of everyone but me.
	Right, right.
	Not uncommon.
	So, your mom went back to work.
	I assume your dad worked full-time as well, is that right?
	Yeah, and he went abroad quite a lot, so he was gone for like most of my early years, if that makes sense.
	And why would he be gone when you were young so much?
	It can't be for the job, right?
	I've been in jobs that involve travel.
	You can not travel a lot of times.
	You may not advance as much, you may not make as much money, but you usually have that choice.
	They don't sort of have a gun to your head and put you on a plane, right?
	No, I understand.
	It wasn't like he was gone months at a time.
	It was just like the weekends here and there, sometimes a week, sometimes two weeks.
	But see, the thing is not, I don't think it was really absence.
	I think it was more like the fighting that they had because they would fight and bicker every single day, several times a day.
	Um, I don't know.
	So they really disliked each other.
	Yes, you could definitely say that.
	And I, they still do.
	And I have no idea.
	Why are you inviting me into this?
	It's funny with this he he laughter stuff.
	It's not funny.
	This is horrible to grow up in.
	Yeah, it is.
	It is fucking horrible.
	Yeah, it is.
	So yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, everybody does this and I understand it, but, and I do it sometimes too, but yeah, when things are, as you say, fucking horrible, maybe let's not giggle about it.
	That's all right.
	That's all.
	Cause it's pretty, pretty bad, right?
	Yeah.
	And do you have siblings?
	Nope.
	None.
	Okay.
	So what would they, what would, what would your parents fight about that you remember?
	Sorry.
	I have half siblings that I found out about when I was 14 years old.
	Uh, tell me about that.
	Uh, well, we were in the car and I was going to my training and my dad sort of told me, Oh, I was sitting in the back.
	He was just sort of like, Oh, by the way, you have three half siblings.
	I was like, what?
	And I think that's how you found out about it.
	But how, how did they come to be?
	He had a previous relationship with another woman for my mom.
	And I assume that she was pretty far away or he had no contact with his kids or was he, was he going to visit his kids when he was supposed to be on business?
	Like what was going on?
	I don't know, because I think that she was saying bad things about him, and that he stopped seeing them for years.
	Because my parents are quite old, right?
	So my half-siblings are much older than me.
	And I don't know, I don't really know how much relationship they had with each other, like before I got to know about them.
	And then there was like some trials with trying to get me how to know them.
	But you know, at 14, it's kind of like too late.
	It's kind of like, well, you've got your own peers, your own friends, you're starting to become interested in boys.
	Like some older half siblings are not going to be super important to you.
	Right.
	No, they were more like, you know, strangers really.
	It was weird.
	Was he, he had been out of touch with them for a while and then got back in touch with them and that's why he brought them up to you or why, what changed that you're into this now or you're supposed to be into this now?
	I'm not 100% sure, but I think that there was just some sort of, you know, previous history.
	Maybe with embarrassment of some sort, maybe with some shame.
	I don't know, because everything is kind of like, you know, I can't have a direct conversation with my parents.
	It's always like, oh no, let's not talk about it, or like, why do you have to bring it up just now?
	And, you know, very much avoidance.
	Sorry, I don't have better answers.
	No, that's fine.
	And how were you disciplined if you were, as a child, when you would do things your parents didn't like?
	I wasn't.
	I was just... You know, I was never hit.
	They were just, you know, busy trying to win arguments with each other.
	It was as if I wasn't there.
	Gosh, I'm sorry about that.
	And it's not like you have a whole bunch of other siblings to deal with, right?
	It's parents or nothing, right?
	Yeah, pretty much like that.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	It was like, Sorry, it was weird.
	It was like, they told me I meant everything to them, but they never made any actions to prove that.
	So it was just empty words, really.
	Sure.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	I got it.
	And what sort of stuff would they fight?
	Was it money?
	Housework?
	Like, what was it that they would fight about?
	You said they fight like a couple of times a day.
	I mean, what was going on?
	Oh, it's always Monet or my mom trying to, you know, get my dad to do stuff.
	Or, you know, she's kind of a nag.
	Or she is very much a nag.
	If I can say so myself.
	And my dad is kind of like...
	Um, what do you say emotional?
	Uh Kind of Touchy-feely kind of weak Uh Oh, sorry, that was my dog Yeah, tell me what you mean about your dad Well I only got to know him, you know, when he started to come of age, like, when he started to become, like, you know, over middle age.
	That's when I grew up with him.
	And he was kind of, like, he was super extrovert and was just, like, the kind of person that, you know, goes out and talks a little bit to everyone at every party and acts kind of funny but kind of nervous.
	But, like, When he's home, he could be extremely, you know, verbally abusive as if it was like his defense.
	So it was kind of like, there was too much difference between what he acted like in public and what he acted like at home for me to really feel like I ever got to know him, if that makes sense.
	Yeah.
	So what would he, what would he say that would be so harsh at home?
	Uh, it wasn't directed at me, but honestly that doesn't really matter When you're a small child, it was more like it was more, you know oh gosh, it was embarrassing stuff like He would say that he would say stuff to my mom like Oh, i'm going to leave i'm going to leave tomorrow you're annoying you're getting to me uh It was just, I'm going to leave.
	Everything sucks.
	Boo-hoo.
	Pretty much.
	Boo-hoo?
	I don't, I don't, is that you mocking him or was that what his approach would be?
	No, that's me mocking him.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	I just, if, if you're going to switch from him to you, I'm, I just want to make sure I follow.
	So he would say I'm leaving, it's over, you're too annoying and so on.
	Right.
	And what would the, what's the boo-hoo part?
	What would that be that you were characterizing?
	Because it's just like, no, I don't want to better myself.
	I don't want, I don't want to, you know, do more.
	I don't want to, I don't want to stop going on random trips.
	I don't want to start taking, putting more effort into all this, having a child thing.
	I just want to do what I want, basically.
	Hmm.
	What were their random trips?
	Oh, with their business or personal?
	I think it was business because he had a business.
	Right, right.
	Okay.
	I assume that if he's not getting along with your mother, then business travel becomes pretty appealing, right?
	You guessed it.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Been there.
	Been there.
	Okay.
	So, actually, here I am criticizing you for laughing and I just gave you a giggle too.
	See?
	See?
	It's insidious.
	It's everywhere.
	All right.
	So, did that relationship, they're together now, right?
	Yeah.
	And are they still fighting?
	Yeah.
	Oh God, what a nightmare.
	No, I know, I know.
	I know.
	I just get, I just get like this big knot in my stomach whenever I think about it, you know?
	It's like, wow.
	What a waste of life, yeah.
	No, I want to avoid this at all costs.
	Like it's my worst nightmare, to be honest.
	And why do you think they have stayed together?
	Uh, codependency, a hundred percent.
	No, that's just a word.
	I mean, that doesn't explain much to me.
	What do you think is in their, in their psyche or their histories that keeps them hanging on to such a pathetic situation?
	That's a very good question.
	I have, I have no idea.
	If I could say something, it would probably be like, um, they're just kind of like two pieces of a puzzle that fit together.
	You know, my mom is very like, Let's do things, and he's very like, uh, let's avoid.
	It's a hard question.
	Sorry, avoid what?
	He's kind of like, no, let's avoid structure.
	Sort of.
	I don't know what this means.
	Let's do things, let's avoid structure?
	What does this mean?
	I don't know.
	He's just not a very like, you know, he doesn't go from like plan to action to here.
	He's just kind of like... What do you mean he doesn't go?
	He runs his own business.
	What do you mean he doesn't go from plan to action?
	No, but he, it's not only, it wasn't only him.
	It was him and his friends.
	And I think he was just sort of like the idea maker, you know, the ADHD... I mean, he made a decent income, right?
	I mean, yeah.
	Okay.
	So he must've been doing something, right?
	This sounds like your mom's complaint.
	I mean, I have, I have pretty much, I have a lot of criticism towards her too.
	No, I get that.
	But as far as like, if your dad just, you know, can't execute and just daydreams or whatever it is like, then he couldn't have made decent money in business.
	That's not how it works.
	Then he's avoiding, they're definitely both avoiders.
	And I'm, I'm so sorry.
	I've thought about this before and I can't bring myself to a conclusion.
	I don't know why they're together.
	Honestly.
	Okay.
	Avoiders.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	Well, they avoid parenting me.
	They avoid solving their own problems, like their communication problems, whatever it is.
	That's just the root of why they're fighting.
	No, but they like it.
	No, isn't this what they prefer?
	I mean, it's not a problem.
	It's now been lasting for over 30 years, right?
	Yeah, but how can you like this?
	Please explain to me.
	Oh no, we can get to that if you want.
	It's not a problem if you've been doing it for 30 plus years.
	You may not want it, you may not like it, but it's not a problem for them.
	If it was a big enough problem for them, they would have solved it.
	But they like it.
	I mean, I guess.
	It has to lead me to that conclusion, though.
	Okay, so the anatomy of your parents' marriage is a mystery to you, right?
	Yeah, totally.
	Okay, so that's probably one of the reasons why it's tough for you to get married, because you don't even know what went wrong.
	I'm not saying you should, but if you don't know what's going on in your parents' marriage, then it's going to be pretty tough to avoid, and you're going to have this vague fear that it's just going to grow like a tumor, right, in any potential marriage of yours?
	Yeah, that's spot on, and that is why I suspected that deep down I wanted this call, because I'm scared.
	No, I get it.
	I get it.
	Yeah, okay.
	So, yeah, I mean, if you don't know why you get a sunburn, then it's going to be pretty tough to plan your day, right?
	If you say, oh, well, I'll put some sunscreen on or stay in the shade, I'll be fine, right?
	So you don't know the cause and effect.
	We get kind of paranoid when we don't know cause and effect, right?
	Yeah, that's true.
	I guess if you want to help me, you know, figure that out, I will be most grateful.
	Right, okay.
	So, is it fair to say, and I sort of got this very strongly from your description of your father, and it's your father, of course, I'm just mentally meeting him for the first time, so correct me where I go astray, if you would, but your father is super friendly to outsiders and pretty mean and indifferent and hostile to people close to him, right?
	He's double with people close with him.
	Because, on the other hand, he says stuff like, but we gotta stick together, and we gotta love each other, and families, all that matters, but I'm going to scream and insult your mom as if she was just some idiot on the street, you know?
	Well, no, but he would never scream at an idiot on the street, would he?
	Directly.
	Oh, no.
	No, so he's very polite, like, all the waiters love him, you know, but his family is like, you hypocritical son of a gun.
	Like he's friendly.
	He's friendly to strangers.
	He's probably pretty friendly in business.
	He's got a joke and a story and I don't know.
	I mean, I'm sort of clicheing him a bit, but people who are friendly and charismatic to those who are further away and then kind of mean and vicious to people who are closer to themselves is a very interesting personality type.
	Yeah.
	People who are charming to strangers and cruel to Those closest to them, kind of sociopathic in my obviously amateur description.
	A superficial charm with an interpersonal horror story is kind of one of the hallmarks of sociopathy, right?
	I don't know much about sociopathy, but I'm gonna go with this.
	Yeah.
	Sounds reasonable.
	So, has he ever had Or can you think of times where you feel you have connected with the real person or a real soul, in a sense, with your father?
	Like a relaxed conversation where nothing's being manipulated, there's, you know, there's no distractions, it's just you connecting with your father in a relaxed way.
	There's glimpses of that when we talk, but we don't really talk anymore.
	Um, because I find that in between those moments, there's a lot of, um, what do you say?
	Just hip hypocrisy.
	Like he's trying to tell me be nice to people, families, everything, but he just doesn't live up to that.
	So I don't know who the hell I'm talking to.
	You know what I mean?
	Can you describe a time where you felt that kind of relaxed and close connection with him?
	I mean, it was so long ago.
	I just remember the feeling, not actually what was being said.
	I think it was when he was trying to tell me that Okay, there's certain things on TV that we shouldn't watch, and this is why.
	Like, for example, you know, what do you say?
	Like, soaps.
	What is it?
	Like, drama shows.
	What is it?
	Like, Big Brother and stuff.
	Oh, like reality television?
	Yeah, and he was like, we don't, we're not supposed to watch this because these are people You know, pretending to be something they're not, and you can't... Yeah, I know.
	Okay, so that's manipulation.
	So, because he's just telling you, don't examine shallow, manipulative people, otherwise the trail will lead directly to me!
	So, that's... What else?
	What else have you got?
	I'm sorry, but you just hit it right on the head there.
	That's kind of what I do, so... But yeah, I mean, so what else?
	What else have you got with sort of relaxed, easy, connected chat?
	I think that's it.
	That's it.
	So nothing.
	No, I was just, you know.
	It'd be weird if there was something.
	Like there's usually either it's a lot or it's nothing.
	I changed my answer.
	It's nothing.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So do you know why you've never connected with the real dad?
	Because he's not being himself?
	Ever?
	No, because there is no real dead.
	It's just smoke and mirrors.
	It's manipulation.
	Everything's calculated for effect.
	There's no spontaneity.
	There's no particular inner life.
	He's just scanning for what he can manipulate in the environment to satisfy some immediate need.
	Holy God.
	You know, in adulthood, this is sort of like what my intuition always told me, and that's why we don't talk.
	And when you say you don't talk, have you had a sort of formal break, or has it kind of faded away, or what's happening with that?
	I just avoid going to see them.
	And have you had, again, I don't know whether you should or shouldn't, but have you had a sort of direct conversation about the deficiencies that you experienced in your upbringing?
	Yeah, a lot.
	And it's all just deflected, like, no, it wasn't that bad.
	What are you saying?
	Or, you know... That's the point, it's so long ago, get over it, move on, you're over 30, all that nonsense, right?
	And, oh, times were different, and we did as best as we could, and blah blah blah blah blah.
	It's just, you know, I gave up a long time ago with that.
	But it's still haunting me, because I feel I feel hard done by and I just can't get over myself in that aspect.
	You can't get over yourself?
	No, I can't.
	You have a lot of descriptive language that I don't know what it means.
	What does it mean to get over yourself?
	It means that I often think about how freaking unfair it was and how much it hurt me and how I was wronged.
	But it's just feelings.
	I've been trying for years to just, you know, get to the bottom with it, just like we are getting to the bottom with it right now.
	But in my own head and in therapy, And I just, it's just, you know, it's just a feeling.
	It's just this, this stuff they've planted in me that I'm trying to scan for.
	I'm so freaking scared of ending up with a partner that is like my dad.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, it sounds like, I'm so sorry.
	Go ahead.
	I didn't mean to interrupt.
	Sorry.
	No, no, sorry.
	I was done.
	It's just this, this fear.
	It's like this unlabeled fear.
	Yeah.
	Well, I mean, if you might trip and fall into hell, you're gonna watch pretty closely where you step, right?
	Because if you end up in this situation, life would probably not be worth living for you, right?
	Yeah, when you put it like that... Okay, so... The question is...
	What do you think drew your parents together?
	What brought them to each other?
	Was it looks?
	Was it status?
	Was it money?
	Obviously it wasn't deep connection and virtue and morals and honesty and integrity and courage.
	It wasn't any of the virtues.
	So what was it that caused you to be?
	What is it that brought your parents together?
	I think my mom saw my dad and was like, Oh, look, that's the alpha at work.
	Let's go.
	Oh, they met at her work?
	Yeah.
	And he was a high status at her work, and she pursued him for that, right?
	Yeah.
	He was kind of like the funny guy at work.
	It's funny and really tragic how many How many people, like there's this old myth, right, of the sirens, right, in ancient Greece.
	And the sirens were these women who sung this beautiful song that was so wonderful that you would do anything to get there.
	You'd steer your ship towards it, you'd swim towards it, you'd do anything to get to the song, and then you just get the crap smashed out of you on the rocks and you die.
	Yeah.
	No, and it's funny because it's quite a common thing where, I think, maybe a little bit more women to male, but it's like, he's high status, he's attractive, he's funny, he's engaging, everybody loves him, and you're like, great!
	I'll take that.
	And then you get home and it's like, he's a hollow automaton always constantly searching to belittle me for stupid victories that never lead anywhere.
	Where's all that charm?
	Why can't you be like the guy at the office or the hospital?
	Or it's, it's wild and it's terrifying, I think.
	Yeah.
	It's really like a wolf in sheep's clothing.
	I get it.
	Right.
	Right.
	So your mother was attracted to his.
	Was he good-looking when he was younger, too?
	Did he have all the trifecta, like the looks, the charm, and the wit?
	I don't think he was a particularly good-looking person, but not ugly either.
	Okay.
	So, he has charm, and I assume you've seen that charm operating in various dimensions with people at parties or others and so on, right?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So your mother fell in love with the charm, took it home and unwrapped it and found like a Tasmanian devil of endless verbal attack.
	Is that right?
	Pretty much.
	But I have to say that he's not, he's not the stereotypical aggressor.
	It's more, it's more like her poking him all the time for reaction as well.
	It's not him starting things, you know?
	Oh no, it's mutual.
	I assume it's mutual, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's balanced, otherwise it couldn't have lasted this long, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Just wanted to clarify that.
	Yeah, yeah.
	No, that's fair.
	So she needles him, he blows up, and then they reach some sort of detente, and then there's dissatisfaction and needling, right?
	Yep.
	Right.
	Right.
	So, I mean, I don't know if you want to explore the dynamics of why this happens,
	or if you wanted to move on to another topic.
	Um, well, give me a second or two to think about that, please.
	Sure, of course.
	Yeah, take your time.
	We can move on.
	I think we can move on because, see, I just wanted... I think I mostly wanted to try and avoid falling into the same trap with my relationship, if you know what I mean?
	But what's the trap?
	That's the challenge, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	Okay, I'll touch on it really briefly.
	If it's a value, we can talk about it more.
	If it's not, we'll move on.
	So, in general, these kinds of Bickerfests that go on for decades are people who enjoy the act of domination, but not consummation of that domination.
	In other words, they want to constantly be fighting and trying to dominate each other, but there's never a final victory.
	And so, you know, there's this argument for a lot of... I think Julian Assange made this argument about war, that the war is not designed to be won.
	The war is designed to continue.
	So, your parents are constantly trying to win with each other, but they can't, and they won't.
	So, it's the striving for dominance over the other that is the mechanism of the relationship.
	They can't ever win over each other because the purpose of the fight is to continue.
	And the fight comes out of frustration, maddening frustration, that if you're in close, you're living with someone and you can't connect with them.
	So it's like being absolutely starving and the only thing that's around is plastic replicas of your favorite food.
	Right?
	So they live with each other and they can't ever connect with each other.
	So they're constantly smashing up each other out of incredible frustration, but now they can't walk away either.
	That's the part I don't get.
	Well, because when you have been striving for dominance for so long, that's become your identity.
	Your identity is striving for dominance.
	Now, if you actually achieve dominance, let's say tomorrow, This may sound outlandish but just go with me for a second.
	So let's say tomorrow your mother wakes up and Jesus himself comes down to her and says, you are now to be, to save your soul, a goodly Christian traditional wife.
	You are no longer allowed to needle your husband and you have to submit to him in what he says.
	And let's say that she was like, absolutely, oh bearded one, I accept the perfection of your moral argument.
	I will now no longer needle my husband.
	I will no longer disagree with him and I will conform to what he wants.
	So what would happen to your parents' relationship if she stopped fighting him?
	.
	Uh, I think it just wouldn't be fun anymore, so they would leave.
	Well, I would argue that your father would lose his identity.
	Well, you should see him today.
	Like, he doesn't have one.
	Right.
	Well, that's because he's been striving to dominate someone for decades, and all he is now is striving to dominate, and she's striving to dominate him, so they're just picking at each other, and that their identity is just striving for victory, but they can't ever achieve it, because the whole point is the striving, and if they achieve it, they have nothing.
	Right.
	No, I understand.
	And if they leave, if they leave from picking at each other, from striving for dominance, they have nothing.
	And that's why, right, they broke up and then they felt incredibly depressed and anxious and without an identity because they didn't have anyone to fight.
	And then they got back together and the unspoken agreement is Our identity is to fight with each other.
	That's all we have.
	That's all we are.
	And so we're just going to make this deal under the table, which is we're going to support each other's fictitious identities by fighting and fighting and fighting.
	And we can't ever win, because then if we win, we stop fighting.
	And so the deal is we maintain our fictional identities of combat by fighting and fighting and fighting.
	And we'll never stop, because if we stop, all the underlying anxiety, depression, whatever is going on down in the roots of things, the drug that we're going to use to distract ourselves is the minor adrenaline and cortisol of combat, of fighting.
	And that way we're distracted from the emptiness within.
	So it's a deal.
	It's a mutually beneficial deal.
	I mean, it's terrible for you, and of course it's terrible for their souls in the long run, but that's the deal.
	I don't want to face my own anxiety and depression, so I'm going to fight with someone because that's going to give me some adrenaline, some cortisol, some excitement, and distract me from the emptiness within.
	Yeah, no, I get it.
	It's like drug addiction.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Alright.
	Weird, but... Okay.
	I accept that.
	I accept that.
	That makes sense.
	What doesn't make sense, though, is... Why do I care?
	I don't understand.
	I just don't understand why...
	This is like one of those things, you know, I have a very vivid memory.
	I have a very vivid memory of my dad saying, I'm going to leave and I'm never coming back.
	And me laying in bed shaking.
	Cause I literally thought I was going to die.
	And I was like, you know, I was six years old.
	Cause when you're a child in here, one parent saying, Oh, I'm going to leave.
	You know, you know exactly what that means.
	It just means like, Oh my God, I'm going to die.
	I'm going to starve to death.
	Right?
	Yeah.
	So that's probably, like, my most vivid memory, sadly.
	Which is horrible.
	I don't wish it on my worst enemy, or, like, I don't wish it on, like, if Hitler was going to be born again.
	I don't want anyone to go through that again, you know?
	But that was me.
	And when I grew up, I don't take it seriously, but I took it extremely seriously back then, and I think it's just...
	I think it was like, this memory was like, it just stopped inside me.
	And how old were you when you first remember that phrase?
	When I first heard it or when I was like conceptualizing it.
	Well, when you remember that phrase, like I'm going to leave you and so on from your dad, I assume it was more your dad, when you heard that, what was your, what age were you when that came into your life?
	Jesus, it was, you know, from when I started having memories.
	It's like two years old, three years old kind of thing, right?
	Probably, yeah.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Could very well be.
	Right.
	Now, why do you think you remember that so vividly, and why did you get a sense that disaster would follow, that you'd starve to death and so on?
	I'm not saying you didn't have any reason to believe this kind of stuff, but why do you think it stuck in your head so strongly?
	Because I had no emotional support, so it was like, I thought it was the worst, and I think I was just preparing myself for surviving on my own.
	Well, do you know how that statement severs the bond, not between your parents, but your parents and you?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Definitely.
	It's like, oh, you got together, you had a child, and now you're playing this kind of theatre.
	What the hell is wrong with you?
	I thought you were supposed to take care of me.
	Right.
	But why is it in particular that that bond The bond between your parents was not severed by that because they stayed together, although you wouldn't know that as a kid, right?
	But why is it so dangerous in its effect on the bond between your parents and you to hear that?
	And it's not just about your father leaving, but both your parents' bonds would have been shattered by you hearing your father saying, I'm going to leave.
	And I don't know if you know or get that connection.
	The harm is in between your parents, primarily.
	The harm is between your parents and you.
	No, no, I get that.
	I get that.
	That makes sense.
	And I knew about it.
	I thought about it.
	Okay, so... I'd like you to tell me what you're thinking.
	Sure.
	So... I don't even want to use myself as an example.
	Okay, so... Your parents, by yelling at each other, Your dad yelling at your mom, I'm gonna leave, and what would your mom say?
	Go ahead, or whatever?
	No, it would just kind of end the fight.
	Oh, so he'd say, I'm gonna leave, and that would be it?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, the reason why it erases the bond you have with your parents is that, first of all, of course, you're not supposed to fight in front of your children.
	Everybody knows that, right?
	Everybody knows that.
	You're not supposed to fight in front of your children.
	Now, if your father is with you, how loudly was he saying this?
	As loud as he freaking could.
	Okay, so he's screaming, I'm leaving, right?
	And of course, you're in the place, and you can hear him, right?
	Yeah, I was in the other room, but, like, it's, you know... Yeah, yeah, but he knows, like, so they can hear him, right.
	So, they are... they are acting as if you're not there.
	Because your father, like, I don't know, like, the sort of cliché is that the parents are having some fierce but quiet argument, right?
	In the kitchen, and then they look up the stairway and the child is watching them through the bars of the banister, right?
	And then the parents say, oh gosh, you know, we really didn't mean for you to hear that, we are having a disagreement, it's not the end of the world, let's talk about it because we don't want you to be upset, right?
	Oh.
	Yeah.
	But they're acting like you don't exist!
	Like, your father's screaming these terrible things at your mother.
	Nothing's being resolved.
	And no one's coming into your room saying, oh, I'm so sorry you had to hear that.
	That's completely wrong and immature.
	Don't worry about it.
	I'm just letting off steam.
	It's the wrong thing to do.
	I'm not leaving.
	Like, as if you didn't exist.
	You had despawned in their minds.
	Yes, literally.
	You don't exist to your parents.
	They do whatever the fuck they want, no matter how much it harms you, and they don't think about you at all.
	You don't cross their minds.
	They can just seek out these petty, stupid victories with each other.
	It can fuck you up completely, and your existence and how it's affecting you doesn't cross their mind, which means you have no bond.
	With your parents.
	So a bond, I mean, you'll become a parent, of course, you want kids.
	You're thinking about your kids all the time.
	All the time.
	You maybe get a minute when you wake up where you don't, right?
	But you think about your kids all the time.
	And, you know, what's best for them and how they could be happier without being too happy.
	So they also get some robustness, some challenges and so on.
	But you're thinking about your kids all the time.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And you, your parents didn't seem to think about you much at all.
	No.
	I know.
	So that's really terrifying.
	Because you don't have any leverage or weight in your parents' mind.
	Exactly.
	You have no negotiation.
	Sorry to keep interrupting.
	You have no negotiation.
	You have no leverage.
	You have no weight.
	You have no credibility.
	They're just going to do whatever they want.
	I mean, you, you better walk the hell, like you better move out of the way than walking.
	They'll just step on your face.
	Literally.
	Like Stefan, do you know how many times I think about my freaking pet every day?
	Like a million times.
	Yeah, my pet, my dog.
	Do you know how many times I think about your dog?
	Absolutely.
	Yeah, for sure.
	35 freaking times.
	And sometimes I think about him and then I think about my parents who never thought about me.
	And I'm just like, how can you be so braindead?
	How can you be like this?
	How can you be like this and have kids?
	Like, take a freaking contraception pill, for God's sake.
	I just don't understand.
	I'm so frustrated with them, because I literally don't understand their thought process.
	Okay, why are you frustrated?
	He said in a frustrated tone.
	Like, seriously.
	So, you're thinking about this stuff a lot, and I understand that, but What is your frustration with regards to your parents?
	I mean, they are who they are.
	That's why I asked if you've ever really connected with your father.
	So their capacity to connect with people was long gone by the time you showed up.
	Yeah.
	Long gone.
	So, they are who they are.
	You pleading with them to allow in the family some perspective that you have.
	You pleading with them.
	This is what happened to me as a child.
	Here were the deficiencies.
	Here were the problems that I've had and they're affecting me in my life right now.
	And I'm kind of tortured and I desperately need you to do something to help me resolve this.
	And they're like, no, no, no, no, no.
	Right.
	Totally blank.
	There's no hesitation.
	There's no, your mom doesn't call you back the next day or your dad saying, Oh, you know, I really did think about what you said.
	And there are some valid points and right.
	They have no input from you.
	No, it's just like staring blankly out into nothing.
	Right.
	So you might as well be.
	Miming on the dark side of the moon, as far as input to your parents.
	Is that fair to say?
	I'm sorry, that sounded so funny.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	So they're completely selfish, narcissistic style people.
	They don't care about you.
	They don't care what you think.
	They just care about this stupid, pointless, bickerton wrestling with each other.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So that's been, and is that the case with your mom as well?
	Like we talked about you trying to connect with your dad.
	Can you think of a time where you've had that kind of relaxed connection with your mom?
	No, I think she avoids connection, to be honest.
	All right.
	She certainly picked the right guy for that.
	Yeah, yeah, totally.
	Like she's not, she's, she helps me a lot.
	Uh, and she worries about me a lot, but you know, I don't, I don't really, like, care.
	I'm sorry.
	Like, I sound like the worst user.
	Like, people are probably sitting at home, like, why do you ask for help?
	No, no, I don't care about the judgment.
	It's boring, right?
	So tell me how she helps you.
	And I don't want to interrupt your general flow, but you say that she helps you.
	I'm not disagreeing, of course.
	I just want to know what you mean.
	Uh, no, she, I think her love language, if I can be corny, is giving me stuff.
	I think they're, they're both trying to compensate for the shittiness by giving me stuff.
	And, uh, what do they give you?
	Uh, money, food, and I don't want, I never take money.
	Oh, they offer you money, but you don't take it.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Cause I just sort of feel, um, I don't want to owe them anything, you know?
	Okay.
	So you, you're telling me they help you and here's, you're telling me how they want to help you, but you don't accept it, which begs the question, how do they help you?
	It's not money.
	What, what is it?
	Well, when I moved back, um, to the country, it was just, it was like, I got to stay with them and I regarded that as help.
	Okay.
	And how long did you stay with them for?
	Oh, it took me like six months to find an apartment.
	What do you mean it took you six months to find an apartment?
	It took long.
	I live in a town.
	Why?
	I mean, I understand you took six months to find an apartment, but that seems to be a little, that's a lot different from, it was objectively, no man or woman alive could have done it faster.
	Wait, sorry, I don't understand what you mean.
	So you said it took you six months to find an apartment.
	Now, if someone had offered you a million dollars to find an apartment in less than six months, would you have been able to do it?
	Not counting the million dollars for rent, right?
	If there had been some massive incentive to get an apartment sooner, Would you have been able to do it?
	I mean...
	I can say for the time, the answer is yes, of course it would have given.
	I mean, if your parents' house had burnt down, you would have found a place to live, right?
	If your parents had left the country and sold the house, you wouldn't have ended up living on the street, right?
	So you would have found a place in less than six months.
	I'm not saying that it's good or bad.
	I'm just saying that when you say, well, the reason I stayed with them for six months is like, well, that's how long it took me to get a place.
	And it's like, no, that's not accurate, right?
	I mean, you would have found a place if your parents had been unavailable.
	You wouldn't have just lived in the car for six months, right?
	I mean, I probably wouldn't have had a possibility to move back or I would have felt so ashamed to ask a friend if I could just stay on their couch until I found something.
	Yeah, but let's say a friend had put you up and you stayed on the couch, it wouldn't have taken you six months, right?
	Yeah, okay, I admit that, no.
	Okay, and it's not a criticism or anything, I just want to be accurate, right?
	Because if you're like, well, they gave me six months that I desperately needed, it's like, no, because they gave you a place to live, you could take a whole lot longer to get a place to stay, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay, just wanted to point that out.
	Okay, so they put you up for a while, and what else?
	Um, when I was living abroad, they would send me, you know, stuff that I liked, like food items and things like that.
	You know, it ended up at my door, so.
	Okay.
	So they've given you a room, a bed to sleep in and some gift baskets.
	What else?
	Um, let me think.
	Aside from like the stuff.
	I'm sorry, aside from the what stuff?
	Sorry, I'm just thinking out loud.
	Oh yeah, no, and honestly, I know I'm putting you on the spot.
	You can totally take your time.
	That's fine.
	And when I moved, mom would come with, like, you know, random items for the house that I didn't ask for.
	I was like, take it, take these plates, take these cups.
	And I was like, no thanks.
	Did she go and buy these cups and bring them to you?
	Or were they leftovers?
	Or stuff in the attic?
	Or her aunt's chinaware?
	Or where did she get the cups?
	No, she went and bought them.
	And I think she just has like a general shopping problem.
	But I mean, it was nice and all.
	Um, it was, I, yeah.
	And what's your relationship?
	Sorry to interrupt.
	Go ahead.
	No, some of the stuff I didn't need and other things I, I was like, okay, I can use a few more glasses, you know?
	Uh, right.
	So not much of utility.
	Oh, okay.
	And of course, when you did go to them with what you really needed, which was to understand your childhood, they wouldn't give you anything, right?
	No, they would just pretty much hide everything from me.
	Right, right.
	And what's your relationship with your mother like now?
	Um Now it's more like she asks me for help with like her
	economy me.
	Bye.
	Not for money, sorry.
	Just stuff like, hey Bill, show me how to do stuff on the computer.
	Or like, oh, can you write me this email?
	Or like, can you write me this text?
	And I'm like, no, you can do it yourself.
	Seriously.
	You know, like she calls me up for these things and I have to, you know, set boundaries with her because she doesn't really know what boundaries are.
	But how do you, I mean, your parents live together and how do you stay in such close contact with your mother without talking to your father?
	I mean, he's in the house, isn't he?
	He is, and I know it's weird, but I give him short answers and he mostly sits in his room and watches TV.
	Watches TV.
	You said your parents are older.
	Is he retired?
	Yeah, he is retired.
	He's been retired.
	He was, what do you say, he got retired like earlier than you were supposed to.
	Uh, but that was due to some accident in the workplace.
	It wasn't because he had a shit ton of money, you know.
	And how long has he been retired for?
	Jesus.
	Twenty years.
	Wow.
	So he retired when you were in the single digits?
	Yeah.
	And did he retire, you said it was, did he have disability insurance, or is he on government money, or how is he doing this?
	Well, he lives off your mom?
	No, she lives off him.
	She's retired too?
	Yeah, but she has this weird obsession with like, I need to keep working!
	I need to keep myself entertained.
	Obviously, she gets anxieties just having nothing to do.
	I think that's why she's so naggy, because she always has to have something to do to fill out the empty space.
	But, listen, they're well off.
	But, like, they're not extravagantly well off.
	They're just... They haven't developed You know, they haven't developed their own personalities, really, because they've been... Sorry, their own what?
	Their own personalities, because, you know, dad's sitting at home and mom is kind of like... Sorry, but what does your dad do all day?
	Nothing.
	What do you mean, nothing?
	I don't understand.
	No, like, I don't understand either.
	He literally just sleeps and watches TV.
	And whenever something happens to the Wi-Fi, he goes bananas.
	He's like, where's the TV?
	And then he starts getting like anxiety attacks.
	Like, where's the TV?
	Can you fix this?
	Can you fix this?
	Oh, it's because the moment he's alone with any of his own thoughts.
	Literally.
	Right?
	He panics, right?
	Yeah.
	Literally.
	So when did your mom retire?
	Oh, just two years ago.
	Okay.
	So your dad, 20 years, I mean, does he do anything in the community?
	Does he do any charity?
	Does he, I mean, I'm trying to figure out exactly what kind of cliched boomer he is in terms of selfishness, but it seems to be, he's checking off every single box.
	He doesn't leave the house like ever, only for doctor appointments.
	And it's sick, to be honest.
	And does he exercise?
	No.
	God, no.
	Is he overweight?
	Not even.
	He doesn't eat.
	Right.
	He just... Isn't this depressing as fuck?
	I'm starting to laugh again.
	Yeah.
	I mean, help me understand.
	What are you, what are you doing hanging around with these corpses?
	I'm trying to avoid them, but I don't want to have the call of,
	listen, I don't ever want to see you again.
	Well, I mean, do you enjoy the time you spend with them?
	No.
	Okay.
	So what's wrong with, sorry, what's wrong with being honest?
	I mean, you've given them lots of chances to provide value to you, that you want, that you need.
	What's wrong?
	Isn't there a virtue called honesty?
	Are you Christian?
	Are you Christian?
	I'm agnostic.
	Right, but I think that you would have a value called honesty, wouldn't you?
	Like, it's good to tell the truth, isn't it?
	Yeah, I mean, it is, and I think... It is, and it isn't.
	No, sorry.
	I heard that pause, which means the reverse is about to happen.
	Right.
	No, no, I'm going to backpedal on this one.
	I don't want to hurt their feelings.
	Okay?
	I know, I know I should... No, I get it.
	That's called appeasement.
	It's when you betray your moral values because you're afraid of other people being upset.
	It's called appeasement.
	You understand, it's not being nice.
	No, no, I'm not being nice.
	I'm just being a cow.
	Yeah, it's not nice.
	Like, if you have a friend who's overeating, and they're getting fat, and you don't say anything because you want to upset them, and then they die of a heart attack, you're not... you weren't nice, right?
	No, I'm not... no, no, no, I'm not trying to be nice.
	I'm just avoidant.
	Well... Okay, and you said that your parents were avoidant, too, right?
	Yeah, but the difference is that I would never... you know, if...
	See, listen, if I had a friend that was eating, overeating, I promise you I would say something, but now I just don't care about them enough to say something.
	I just don't care, because you know what, they wouldn't understand.
	Oh no, don't try this one with me, young lady.
	Don't even try.
	You can't, at the one hand, you can't say, I just, I'm so terrified to hurt their feelings, I can't even be honest, and then say, well, I don't care about them at all.
	Those are completely contradictory positions, and I won't have it.
	I'm sorry, like, I'll go with, I'll go a long ways with people, but you can't take, you can't get that one.
	I'm sorry, like, you can't say, I'm so terrified of telling them the truth and upsetting them, that I'll lie and fake a relationship, and then say, well, I just don't care about them.
	If you didn't care about them, you'd tell them the truth!
	Am I wrong?
	Nice try, though.
	Listen, that was really good.
	That was a ninja move.
	Like, that was spectacular.
	You almost had me for a second.
	Oh my god, I'm... That's good, that's really good.
	I can see why you can talk yourself in and out of stuff, because you didn't even notice that one, right?
	Yeah, no shit, like, I'm so gaslighted, it's unbelievable.
	Right.
	Right.
	I was right.
	Why won't you tell your parents the truth?
	I don't enjoy spending time with you guys.
	I've given it 30 years and it sucks.
	And I've tried talking to you about stuff that I care about.
	I've tried talking about you stuff that I'm interested in and you just nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.
	It's depressing as hell.
	Dad, you're basically a mushroom.
	I mean, that's an insult to Mushroom.
	At least Mushroom can get you high.
	So, you know, I don't know, you've wasted two decades of your life.
	You've been basically an unemployed loser since I was nine years old.
	And it's depressing.
	And it's gross.
	And Mom, you've let him just rot away in here?
	Oh, well, I've tried, I've tried.
	You haven't tried hard enough, right?
	So, let's say, sorry guys, like, peace out.
	It's been, it's depressing.
	I've got my own life to live.
	I'm turning 30.
	I just, I can't, I can't, I can't spend the next 20 years hanging around this, this mausoleum masquerading as a house.
	What would they say if you said something along those lines?
	I think that they would just pretend they didn't hear.
	Take care.
	you Well, then you go up and you gently wrap them on the forehead and say, Hello!
	Anybody home?
	Echo!
	Hello!
	The hats are on, are you in there?
	Hello!
	What would they say?
	But we're your parents!
	Yeah, and you should have acted like them.
	I mean, you really should have.
	You should have given me advice.
	You should have given me feedback.
	You should have given me morals.
	You should have paid attention to me.
	Dad, you shouldn't have been screaming where I can hear that you're gonna leave the family and never come in to comfort me.
	You shouldn't have been nicer to strangers than you are to your own family.
	Oh, and by the way, you shouldn't have BICKERED!
	Like a pair of coked up cats for almost the three decades that I've known you.
	Because that's shitty.
	Does it make sense that I've said what you just said to my dad?
	My parents?
	I'm sorry?
	Sorry, can I get some retribution points that I actually said what you just said straight to my parents' face?
	Okay, and what did they say?
	Um, you know, the normal stuff like, but, but, but I tried.
	But I tried.
	Okay.
	Let's play this out.
	Let's play this out.
	So your parents say, but I tried, right?
	Yeah.
	I say, what do you mean you tried?
	You mean you yelled within earshot of me that you were going to leave mom when I was a little kid and you tried what?
	Did you try to come in and, and, and comfort me?
	Did you not remember where the room was?
	Did you have trouble with the door?
	What the fuck are you talking about?
	You didn't try at all.
	You screamed at mom, you retired to your room and you let me rot in my own terror.
	You didn't try anything.
	You didn't try to comfort me.
	I can't remember a time when you comforted me or gave me good advice or listened to me or cared about what I thought wanted and preferred.
	How dare you threaten divorce within my earshot and then fuck off to your own room and not talk to me?
	How dare you?
	What is wrong with you?
	You know what?
	I don't even care.
	At this point, I don't care what's wrong with you because it doesn't matter.
	This is well over a quarter century ago and it can't be fixed.
	You know, now I'm sitting here feeling stupid that I've literally said these things and never acted on them.
	Like, I said all these things, but then I was like... And now, I'm going to leave.
	Forever.
	Bye.
	Well, you don't have to say that, because who knows, right?
	But you can say... I mean, I don't know what you could say.
	I can tell you what I said, in these kinds of situations, which is not the right thing to say, I'm just going to tell you what I said.
	What I said was, they said, oh, so that's it?
	That's it?
	And I said, I don't know.
	But I'll tell you this, I'm not going to contact anyone out of guilt or obligation, or history, or momentum, or sentimentality.
	I will contact you if I really want to.
	Not because I ought to, not because I'm feeling guilty, not because there's some weird obligation, not because you're my parents, right?
	Because if it's so important for you that you're my parents, maybe you should have parented me!
	Just a little.
	Just a little!
	Because you really didn't.
	So, you don't get the label parents if you didn't parent me.
	I guess you could get sperm donor, egg holder, and jailers, but you can't get parents, because to do that you actually have to parent people, which means thinking about your kids needs and giving them some useful affection advice, information, and wisdom.
	But I will I'll be back in touch if and when I feel like it.
	When's that going to be?
	I don't know.
	I don't want to talk to you right now because it's been a horrible experience.
	Horrible experience.
	Like, you've chosen to not listen to me.
	You've chosen to gaslight me, you've chosen to lie to me, to ignore and wave away all of my concerns, to insult me by saying I should just magically be over it.
	You guys have been bickering for 30 years and then you tell me I should get over stuff in the past?
	Are you kidding me?
	It's... I feel like I'm in a... I'm not just feel... I am in a madhouse.
	If you guys think it's easy to get over being neglected as a child, If you think that it's so simple for me to get over being abused and neglected as a child, then why are you guys fighting three times a day?
	If you're experts at getting over things, you're terrible at getting over things.
	But then the moment I come up with real things, you guys won't even get over stupid little things.
	Who did the dishes?
	Did you move this?
	Why didn't you fill up the gas in the car?
	You guys won't even get over little things.
	And then you just want to snap your fingers and say, oh, no, no, it's totally easy to get over year after year of neglect and verbal abuse.
	It's an asylum.
	I'm literally in an asylum.
	So I will be back in touch when I wake up and I'm like, you know what?
	My parents have something of real value to offer me.
	I want to see them.
	want to bathe in the love and care and concern of their radiant affections.
	I miss that.
	I miss all of the wonderful times where they listened to me and gave me great advice and helped my hand and comforted me and helped me out and asked me whatever they could do to help me get married and have kids they would be willing to do no matter how difficult or painful.
	When I dream and think about you guys putting your own needs aside and focusing on what's best for me then I'll give you a shout.
	I wouldn't sit by the phone if I were you But if I wake up and I can think of some non-bullshit, non-sentimental, non-guilt-ridden reason to call you, I'll call you.
	I can't think of any right now because this has been, you know, you'll look back and this is like a pivotal moment, right?
	Life comes down to like a couple of moments.
	It really does.
	Life comes down to a couple of moments.
	And this was one of the moments where you had the chance and the choice to listen to me rather than run your own stupid selfish agenda.
	And you didn't.
	You decided to run your own stupid selfish agenda.
	You wouldn't listen.
	You wouldn't give me sympathy.
	You wouldn't give me the information that I need.
	You just gaslit me and told me I was wrong and insulted me and ignored me.
	And that's a decision.
	I can't change that decision in you.
	It may be that in the years and decades to come, you look upon this day of conversation and you say, God, did we ever fuck that up?
	That's terrible.
	And maybe you will feel that one day.
	But I still don't think that will make you change because then the next second you'll just invent something to blame me or whatever, right?
	So, yeah, this is the day where I told you the truth and all you did was lie.
	And until I prefer lies to the truth, don't expect to hear from me.
	Yeah.
	That was perfect.
	So what happens after these conversations?
	I leave, go to my own place and don't call them.
	Okay.
	And then... That is not the end of the story, of course.
	And then your mom's like, I need help with an email!
	Do they call and pretend like nothing happened?
	Are you asking if they would?
	No, you're still in touch with them, right?
	Uh... Yeah, yeah, but like... Okay, so you have, sorry, so you have these conversations.
	Well, you're upset and you get mad at them and you tell them the things in which they're deficient that genuinely hurt you, they gaslight and lie and insult you, and then what happens?
	You go home, and then what happens?
	I live my life, they call me.
	I give in, obviously.
	Okay, so why do you give in?
	Out of the... but they're my parents.
	I'm sorry, out of what?
	Yeah, no, I give in because...
	I'm living in this fantasy that parenthood is like just something that you owe someone, not something that you earn.
	But I'm sorry, I'm sorry, haven't they earned the standards they've imposed?
	Right, so if I have a friend, I keep lending him money, he never pays me back, I'll stop lending him money, right?
	Whereas if I have a friend I lend money to and he pays me back and takes me out for dinner, I'll probably lend him money when he needs to, right?
	But the friend who doesn't pay me back when I lend him money, of course he's going to say, well, friendship is everything, man, and you've got to be generous.
	He just wants free money.
	Because what's reciprocal here other than you got some glasses for your place and a couple of gift baskets, which you didn't really want.
	So, you're not treating them badly.
	They have lived with the principle.
	You do what you want.
	Too bad.
	If it hurts people, who cares?
	Right?
	Your father can scream at your mother that the family's over, he's leaving, and everyone's going to starve to death, and he goes and storms off, doesn't think about you, so he does what he wants in his own petty, vicious mood of the moment, and doesn't care about you at all.
	Right?
	So, I don't understand how they could possibly complain, logically, if you're like, you know what?
	You guys taught me that it's really, really important to do what you want, and to be completely indifferent to how it affects others.
	I don't feel like seeing you.
	And you say, well, that upsets us.
	It's like, no, no, that's, that's not a thing.
	Cause it upset me when you guys pick it every day, but you still pick it every day.
	So clearly you don't really believe that you should limit your behavior out of consideration for others.
	So I'm not going to do it either.
	Like you've taught me well.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	But then they'd say, well, how can you criticize us if you just become us?
	And be like, well, no, I haven't become like you at all.
	I haven't become like you at all, because I didn't do it to you.
	But you've taught me from literally day one.
	I mean, I probably heard you guys yelling at each other while I was in the womb.
	But you've taught me, do what you want.
	Too bad if it hurts others, that doesn't matter.
	And you've lived like that, deliberately, for almost 30 years of my life.
	So, you know what?
	I don't feel like seeing you guys.
	But that's gonna hurt us!
	It's like, no, but... But that doesn't matter.
	You've taught me that that doesn't matter.
	So, I'm... liberated by your principles.
	You can't claim now, suddenly, that the family's feelings matter so much, when my feelings as a kid didn't matter.
	And my feelings, even as an adult, literally 10 minutes ago, when I was telling you what upset me as a child, my feelings didn't matter.
	I was just wrong!
	Just get waved away.
	Gaslit.
	Lied.
	Insulted.
	Go away.
	Stop talking.
	Doesn't matter.
	Move on.
	Who cares?
	We did our best.
	Stop being petty.
	Let go of the past.
	My feelings ten minutes ago didn't matter at all and now you're trying to tell me that I should guide my life based on your feelings?
	Are you crazy?
	I don't even know what your major malfunction is and I'm really sorry because it's partly my fault.
	I've let this bullshit go on for way too long, and thus reinforced your worst habits, which is on me, and I'm really sorry for that, but I'm not gonna keep making that mistake.
	Now, why did you crumble?
	And it's not an insult, I mean I think it's fair to say you did, and I'm not insulting you at all, it's a genuine curiosity question.
	Cause they call you up and you can say, oh yeah, listen, I'm still looking for information about my childhood.
	When you want to talk about that, give me a shout.
	Totally happy to hear.
	They call you back.
	Nope.
	Still looking for information about my childhood.
	And I'm also still looking for you guys to take ownership for what you did.
	An apology or two would be pretty nice.
	When you want to talk about that, I'm totally happy to chat.
	They call you back.
	Nope.
	You're still not like, you just keep saying what you want.
	Yeah.
	So why did you get drawn back into the unreality of nothing happened?
	And I say this with sympathy, I really do.
	Ha ha.
	And by the way, this is the reason you're not married.
	you To say- Um... Hold on.
	Woof.
	What did the dog say when he sat on the sandpaper?
	Ruff!
	So I'll stand up here while I'm waiting for her to come back.
	I'm sorry about that.
	No, don't worry about it.
	It's no problem at all.
	No problem at all.
	And I'm edit this out.
	I'm going to say it again.
	I gotta go soon.
	Okay, we'll keep it real brief.
	How long do we have?
	10 minutes?
	Yes.
	So we'll keep it real brief.
	The reason why you crumbled is the same reason you're not married.
	You've had a 14-year relationship, right?
	Yeah.
	So the same reason that you crumbled is the same reason you're not married, and that is because you are alone in this fight.
	You don't have anyone in your corner.
	You don't have anyone standing up for you.
	You don't have any allies, and that's what we do.
	You're an only child who grew up with very dominant, neglectful, and sometimes verbally abusive parents.
	No one's ever been on your side.
	Nobody ever takes your corner.
	Nobody ever props you up.
	And so you have to crumble because your boyfriend, or whatever you'd want to call the guy of 14 years, is not 150% on your side and helping you stand up to this kind of exploitation.
	Does that make sense?
	Your parents hurt you and he doesn't do everything in his power to have them stop hurting you,
	which means you can't really trust him.
	and I'll see you next time.
	I mean...
	This is going to sound very defensive.
	I just want to say two things.
	Number one, he comes from a similar background and has trouble figuring it out.
	Number two, he's tried saying we should just go together and stop talking to our parents, but I've chickened out as well.
	And that might be because of what you're saying just now.
	Well, the fact that he comes from a similar background should mean that he's even stronger and better at doing this, if he's been willing to work at it.
	Now, so he said, let's stop talking to our destructive parents or our abusive parents or whatever, and you were like, no, I'm not going to do that, right?
	Now, to be loved, right, to be loved, Is when someone around you, one of the components, is they can't stand you being hurt, right?
	Yeah.
	They can't stand you, they can't stand the sight of you being hurt, right?
	Now, if, I don't know, in some alternate universe, right?
	I was dating a woman who cut herself, right?
	I never have, of course, but let's say I'm dating a woman who cut herself, right?
	Now, that's watching her hurt herself, right?
	Now if I said listen you've got to go and get treatment for this
	because this is unbearable for me to watch I can't stand watching you cut
	yourself and she said no if I loved her what would I do?
	I would leave her if I loved her because loving her means I can't stand watching
	her get hurt.
	And so if she's hurting herself and won't fix it I can't watch that because it's too painful to me because I love her.
	I also don't want to enable what is obviously a bad decision process of continuing to cut yourself.
	So if your boyfriend truly loved you and you know I'm not saying he doesn't care enormously but if he truly loved you he'd be like look I can't stand what happens to you when you're around your parents.
	So if you're going to continue to see them, I can't see you.
	Any more than I could be around you, if I love you, and you keep punching yourself in the face.
	I can't do it.
	Because it hurts me too much to see you hurt.
	So if you're going to put yourself in a situation where you keep hurting yourself, because at this point it is your choice, right?
	You're not a kid, you're not stuck there.
	So if you're going to put yourself in a situation where you keep hurting yourself, then I can't be with you.
	Because I also have to think about my future, and my heart, and my self-protection, and what's best for my kids.
	I don't want my kids being around your parents.
	I don't want your parents to take care of my kids, or our kids, right?
	Because I don't want the bickering, I don't want the fighting, I don't want the destruction, I can't trust them, I don't think that they connect well with people, and so on, right?
	So these people who did you the greatest harm, I don't like, of course, because they harmed you.
	The fact that they continue to do you great harm means I like them even less.
	And I just, I can't, I can't have this in my life.
	I can't have you and people who hurt you in my life.
	And I certainly can't have people who hurt their offspring around my children.
	Does this make sense?
	Can you hear me?
	Did we lose each other?
	I thought we had a few more minutes.
	Hello, hello.
	Oh dear.
	Oh dear, what can the matter be?
	I've been drowning in flattery.
	Alright.
	Uh, chat, here we go.
	Did we lose something there?
	Hello.
	Alright, I guess I'll try hanging up and calling again.
	Hello?
	Oh, she's unavailable.
	Alright.
	Well, it looks like we may have lost her for the call, but yeah, that's the kind of thing.
	I think that's important to try and sort out.
	Which is, if people care about you, they won't be in situations where you continue to hurt yourself.
	Okay, yeah.
	So she said, I'm sorry I heard what you said, but I don't want to disclose what you said to my boyfriend.
	I kind of got very emotionally overwhelmed too.
	I'm so very sorry.
	Okay.
	Well, so yeah, she doesn't want to, I guess she hung up on me.
	I guess that's what happened.
	Well, that's new.
	I don't think that's happened before, but hey, whatever.
	Right?
	I mean, that's, that's the way the cookie crumbles.
	So yes, people should not be in situations where they have to watch you get really hurt and upset.
	So, I guess she'll have to continue and learn some other way.
	Some other way.
	All right.
	Well, thanks, everyone, so much, of course, for your support and all of this kind of good stuff.
	I really do appreciate it, and I wish the very best to this young lady, and if she ever wants to call back, she is certainly welcome.
	All right.
	Take care, everyone.
	Bye.
	Hello, hello.
	Hello.
	Hey, how's it going?
	Good.
	Thanks for having the call so soon after, by the way.
	No problem at all.
	No problem at all.
	I'm all ears.
	How did it play for you yesterday?
	Honestly, I just decided to just put it on hold in my head.
	And just sort of pick off where we left off, if that makes sense.
	I have a lot in school right now, so I just had to compartmentalize and just get on with it.
	Sorry, I'm not sure what put it on hold.
	I mean, it seems like you hung up on me.
	Yeah, I wasn't comfortable with, you know, Walking into the house and being like, hey, who are you talking to?
	And I was like, oh yeah, Stefan Molyneux.
	It would be like, what the fuck?
	You know?
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	But yeah, like probably going to show this afterwards.
	It was just a bit awkward.
	Show this?
	Oh, you've been to your boyfriend?
	Yeah.
	Right, okay.
	So you were walking home to your boyfriend, and then he wouldn't be confused about who you were talking to, and then so you hung up on me.
	I mean, sort of, and also I got upset.
	Because of my parents, I started crying, so it would have just been very dramatic.
	So I'm sorry, Dad.
	Sorry, first of all, why is that dramatic?
	And secondly, why not just tell me that?
	I mean, it's a bit confusing to be hung... I've never... I mean, I'm doing this... Funny, you actually win the prize, the first person to hang up on me.
	No, really?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Yeah, I don't generally have that, because, you know, I sort of encourage people to talk about what's going on and so on, but...
	No, like, I actually regret that I didn't say, hey, I want to have a talk with Stefan.
	I don't know why the hell I didn't say that.
	Because it would just have been, I thought that it would just have been, like, weird that I come home and, you know, sort of have to explain everything.
	And then it would just be... Well, it's awkward, I guess, to talk about your boyfriend with your boyfriend in the house, right?
	Yes, exactly what I meant.
	Did you want to talk about anything else to do with your parents or your life, or did you want to talk about your boyfriend?
	What's your preference?
	I'll probably move on, but But move on to what?
	That's my question.
	I'll put it now to talk about my relationship or my boyfriend or whatever, but like probably just a quick recap would be good.
	Sure.
	You're better at stuff like that than me.
	Well, 14 years, right?
	Uh, yeah, something like that.
	Yeah.
	So like late teens to where you, I'm sorry, I guess what?
	Mid-teens to where you are now?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So tell me a little bit about the relationship.
	And 14 years, no marriage, right?
	Obviously.
	Yeah, no marriage.
	Well, first of all, I'm going to try and answer as best I can why we're not married and why we don't have kids.
	And it's going to sound like a lot of excuses, but I don't care.
	I'm just going to give you the gist of it, really.
	Then you can just dissect what I'm saying if you want.
	No, but basically, okay, so we're from two different countries, right?
	And it's been a lot of bureaucracy, a lot of fighting back and forward with different You know, I tried living there, he's tried living here.
	There've been a lot of bumps in the process, sort of like, no, we're not gonna consent to your application, or it's been difficult getting a job here and there.
	I've also moved to his country, I didn't like it, I didn't like being away from my family and my friends.
	And I didn't like the people.
	I'm sorry.
	I just didn't like the culture.
	It didn't fit in.
	Sorry, but how did you meet a guy in another country in your mid-teens?
	You know, back then we, there was like a different sort of social context when you played video games.
	It was a lot more, well, it wasn't, we didn't have a dating, the whole dating thing.
	It was more we met through mutual interests, really, instead of talking.
	So you met, like, online gaming?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And we were friends for a year.
	And then... My mom actually suggested that we would meet each other.
	Your mom?
	And you were, what, 16?
	Yeah.
	So you're... Sorry.
	You met a guy online, you were friends for a year, and your mother, when you were 16, suggested that you meet up with this person you'd met online.
	Yes.
	But it would have to be here.
	So he came here.
	Right.
	And was the purpose of your mother having you meet this guy up online because she thought it would be good dating for you?
	I think that's what she thought.
	She was just like, you've been talking to him every day for a year.
	What's the point?
	Like, why aren't you... Because you seem to like each other.
	So, like, for dating, right?
	I'm just curious.
	I assume so, yeah.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So then, did his family pay for the costs for him to come and visit you?
	He was a bit, like...
	He's three years older than me, so he already started working.
	Oh, come on, man.
	Oh, my God.
	This is crazy.
	So your mother has a legal adult come and meet you while you're legally a child for dating purposes from the internet.
	Well, it doesn't work like that in this country.
	You're 15.
	After 15, you can date.
	It's not illegal.
	Did I say anything about the dating?
	You're still legally a child though, right?
	I mean, yeah, but he was going to come home to us and stay with us.
	He was going to stay in your house?
	Yeah.
	So mom invites a 19 year old stranger from the internet to come and stay with you and at your house when you're 16 years old?
	I mean, yeah, but we have been on video calls and talked to each other a little bit.
	It wasn't, like, completely like that.
	Well, anyway... Sorry, the video calls were with your mother?
	Yeah, yeah.
	I mean, maybe I'm old-fashioned.
	Does this strike you as normal?
	If it does, hey man, maybe it's a different world, but in a zillion years that would never happen in my household.
	Like, there's no way.
	No, it wouldn't happen in mine either, but... Okay, so why are you fighting me that it's weird?
	Because... I'm just saying, like, he's not some weirdo.
	Well, he's 19 years old, and, uh, chatting with a 16-year-old, which, you know, I'm... I get, you know, it's three years or four years or whatever.
	But can't he find an adult?
	I mean, he was with someone, but they broke up.
	Right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	Well, um, I'm not gonna, uh, if, if you want to be okay with that, obviously I guess it's the foundation story of your relationship.
	So, okay.
	So the guy comes to visit and what happens?
	What happens is that we, well, we hang out in the same space, the whole family.
	My parents get a feel for him.
	Lonely and him play video games together with some people that we knew.
	Do you mean like all in the same place?
	Yeah, like a LAN.
	Okay, got it.
	And so we met some of my friends, we hung out, and then after like the second day or something, we went out to cinema together, to dinner, just casually hang out like as friends, you know?
	And then everything went pretty naturally.
	So we had the talk, or like You know, were you just, like, is this what you expected, sort of?
	Sorry, and he's staying in a spare room at your parents' house?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So, yeah.
	We decided we were boyfriend and girlfriend, and then we kissed.
	On the second day?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And it was nice.
	It was nice.
	But why, why, why are your parents encouraging a boyfriend from another country?
	I mean, it's illegal quagmire and hell on earth to try and get together with people from other countries, right?
	I didn't know that.
	No, but they knew that.
	I get that you didn't know that, but you're a kid.
	They knew that.
	I'm trying to figure out what's going on here.
	As I said, I wasn't parented.
	Oh no, no, no.
	This is a parenting choice.
	Come and stay at our house, you 19-year-old from another country, and get involved with our daughter.
	That's absolutely a parenting course, that's not indifference.
	I mean, your mom was the one who suggested that he come over, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so that's active parenting.
	Bring him over, he can stay with us.
	What the hell?
	I just want to say straight away that I would never in my wildest imagination do what my mom did.
	I would never in my wildest dreams be as chill as she was.
	I'm just very happy that it worked out.
	I'm sorry, did you actually use the word chill with regards to this?
	That's not the right word.
	Okay, irresponsible.
	Well, no.
	She's taking full responsibility.
	She's suggesting the meeting.
	She's setting it up.
	She's putting him up.
	It's not irresponsible.
	She's taking every bit of responsibility.
	I honestly don't know what the hell's going on here.
	I can't even think of a word for it.
	But none of those words apply.
	All right anyway so you you kiss the guy and your boyfriend girlfriend and this is second day he's over and then what
	happens.
	There's a few days and.
	And your parents know, do you?
	Do your parents know?
	No.
	Oh, so you don't tell your parents.
	Okay, sorry, go ahead.
	Well, we held hands when we were in public, like, sort of in front of my parents.
	I think they understood that we clicked.
	Okay, so they understood that your teenage boyfriend, that your teenage guy was now your boyfriend, and he's still sleeping under the same roof and all that, right?
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	All right.
	And then?
	And then he went home.
	Well, how long did he stay?
	Sorry?
	How long did he stay?
	Three or five days, no.
	Not a week, like just under a week.
	Okay.
	And did your parents talk to you about dating this guy and The challenges of it being long distance in another country, you being 16!
	Anything like that?
	No, there was complete silence afterwards.
	It was just... We're still together?
	Okay, good.
	Oh good, so they approved of him.
	They approved of the relationship.
	Yes, yes.
	And then?
	And then it was just a back and forth chaos of me being... or us being...
	Very infatuated with each other, trying to make money, to go and see each other as much as we could.
	You don't have to give me all the details, but is it a far country?
	Is it like Alaska and Australia, or is it France and Germany?
	I'm sorry?
	It's like, it's like, oh my God, it's like, uh, uh, Greece and France, maybe.
	I don't know.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Medium, medium distance.
	Okay.
	Couple, like couple of countries between.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Okay.
	But, uh, there's no language barrier, right?
	In the beginning, well, in the beginning there sort of was, but you know, my English got good quite fast.
	Oh, so there was a language barrier at the beginning.
	Like a tiny bit, but not really.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you're now dating this long distance guy?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And then?
	And then I tried to move schools to, you know, live with him.
	I'm sorry, what now?
	You tried to live with him?
	Yeah.
	Cause like after we've seen each other about 10 times or something, we started, we wanted to live with each other.
	And how old were you at this point?
	Um, 19.
	Oh, okay.
	So we just skipped a couple of years.
	I wasn't, I wasn't sort of aware of that.
	Okay.
	Oh, okay.
	Sorry.
	No, I was 19.
	Tried to go there.
	There was bureaucratic, um, complications.
	Well, sure.
	Because you're not, I mean, you're not married.
	So they don't know who you are and why you should be living there, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah, but in the EU it's a bit more complicated.
	It actually doesn't matter if you're married or not, it's just... I know, amazingly, I know in the US it's a big thing to get married, but here it hardly changes your status.
	Like, they don't give a shit, quite frankly.
	It's just like...
	It's very random.
	I can't even explain.
	I don't know.
	There's no transparency in what you need, how old you have to be, your marriage status, anything like that.
	Oh, so these are two EU countries?
	Yeah.
	So, I mean, I thought the whole point was basically you could work and live anywhere.
	I know it's more complicated than that, but So you'd think so, but in reality it doesn't work like that.
	Okay.
	All right, so you go out and try to live with him.
	And what did your parents, when you were 19, what did your parents think about you going out to live with him?
	Uh, don't do it.
	Oh, now they're putting the brakes on.
	First they invite him over when you're 16, and then when you want to go and live with him, they're like, well, maybe this isn't a great idea.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, literally.
	Oh my god.
	I'm so sorry.
	I'm so sorry.
	Okay, so you ignore your parents and go live with him, but legally it doesn't work out, right?
	And you have to come back after a while?
	No, I never even got there.
	Oh, you never got there?
	No, we were fighting for a long time.
	He was trying to find out the rules and all that, and it just failed.
	So he was like, okay, but...
	I'm halfway through my university course.
	I can try and move to you instead.
	So you were fighting with the bureaucracy, so to speak, but not with each other, right?
	Yeah, no, never with each other.
	Okay.
	And your relationship was good and not conflict and all of that, right?
	I mean, there were some conflicts.
	Because I wasn't very well off mentally, because I was tired of fighting with the bureaucracy, and he was quite frowned... Oh God, what's happening to my voice?
	I'm sorry.
	I'm a little froggy too, so that's fine.
	So you were tired from fighting with the bureaucracy, and he was... I didn't get that word, sorry.
	It was just, we were young and immature and we didn't... I don't know what's happening to my voice.
	I have to drink some water.
	Yeah, no problem.
	Sorry.
	Now there's like some new EU law that all the corks have to be on the...
	The bar album's freaking annoying.
	Okay.
	I'm ready.
	Alright.
	So you were having some conflict based on the stress of the paperwork?
	Yes.
	Right.
	And trauma from my parents not really parenting until it suits them.
	Sort of.
	I was confused because, you know, I didn't have any friends and I didn't want to be a loser like that.
	So I was focusing a lot on my social skills to try and get better.
	And I got a lot better and I have a lot of friends today.
	Thank God for that to happen.
	I had to take a major distance from my parents.
	I just had to It was the side that I didn't want to be like them.
	Sorry, you said you visited him ten times.
	Was he living with his parents when you visited him, or was he living on his own?
	No, with his parents.
	And so, I guess at the age of 16 or so, or maybe 17, you went to go and visit him at his parents' house, and what did his parents say or think or talk to you about all of this?
	Oh, it was great.
	I really liked them.
	They said that they tried to make me feel comfortable.
	They asked a lot of questions about my parents.
	They asked a lot of questions about me.
	And they were like, You know, I just felt like they were very welcoming.
	And so they had no problem with your parents letting a 19-year-old come and sleep under their roof who's sexually interested in their 16-year-old.
	They never said, like, that seems a bit odd, maybe we should have a chat with them, there might be a misalignment of values.
	Not that that's your fault, but did they ever express any concern about any of that?
	Well, I guess not, because they didn't tell their son, no, of course you can't go.
	Not because she's a bad girl, of course, right?
	But because her parents are fine with you going.
	There is a language barrier between his parents and my parents.
	Okay, but did they ask you?
	Like, tell me what was the story with your parents and inviting a 19-year-old guy to come and I don't remember exactly what they said, but I definitely asked, like, is this okay for you?
	And like, what do your parents think?
	But were they of the opinion that if your parents were fine with it, then they were fine with it?
	I think so.
	All right.
	Okay.
	Are they Christians?
	Mmm, culturally only.
	Oh, so they don't go to church?
	No.
	Okay, but they believe in Christian values more or less, right?
	I think so, yeah.
	What do you mean you think so?
	You've known these people for a decade and a half almost!
	I mean, there's just sort of, like, they go there when it's holidays.
	That's it.
	Wait, sorry, I thought, wait, they go to church?
	Wait, do they go to church or not go to church?
	In their country, it's more, like, you kind of have to go to church.
	Oh, come on, this is a yes-no.
	Let's not get complicated.
	This is kind of a yes-no.
	Okay.
	Do they go to church?
	No.
	Okay, but do they go to church on holidays?
	Yeah.
	So what are you talking about?
	They go to church?
	No.
	They go to church on holidays?
	Yes.
	Then they go to church.
	I'm not saying... I didn't say do they go to church every day or every week.
	Do they go to church?
	Okay.
	Yeah, they go to church.
	I'm sorry, why are you laughing like you're conceding some bizarre point?
	I'm just asking you a pointed question.
	If someone goes to church, then they're Christians.
	You can't say they're just cultural Christians if they actually go to church.
	You're fine.
	I just felt a bit silly that I just didn't say yes or no.
	See, why wouldn't you want to just tell me, yes, they're Christians.
	You know, maybe I didn't ask how devout they are, but they go to church.
	They're Christians, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And why do you think you had hesitation in affirming that basic fact?
	They don't really act like Christians.
	That's right.
	That's right, my dear.
	They really don't act like Christians.
	All right.
	But it's okay.
	Christians don't, and I get that.
	And a lot of atheists act even worse.
	So, all right.
	So you go and try to live with him, but you, sorry, you want to go and try and live with him, but you can't get there because of paperwork.
	And then what happens?
	He tries to go to me after his university is done.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And what are you doing in your early adulthood here?
	Going to school.
	I don't know what you say in English, but what do you say, like grad school?
	Yeah, grad school.
	So at this point you've finished your undergraduate and you're going to your grad school.
	Yeah, something like that, yeah.
	And you obviously don't have to tell me the field, but is what you're studying The basis of what you do as an adult, like in terms of your job.
	Not at all.
	Okay.
	It's completely unrelated.
	So you probably did some artsy-fartsy thing and then you ended up doing something more practical.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Hey, I've been there, man.
	I've been there.
	Same thing for my boyfriend, which is why I'll tell you later.
	Okay.
	Keep going.
	All right.
	So you can't live with him and you're in your early twenties.
	He's in early to mid twenties.
	And what happens then?
	He comes to me after he's done with his RC Farsi, and he stays, and I don't remember much, but I can summarize this for you.
	He doesn't succeed in finding a job.
	And where are you guys staying?
	Do you live on your own at this point?
	No, with my parents.
	Ah, so you spent your early 20s to mid-20s living with your parents, is that right?
	Yeah.
	And when did you... I mean, I assume you don't still live with your parents, though maybe you do, but when did that end?
	When I was 23, 24.
	Okay, got it.
	So he can't get a job.
	Now, he can't get a job of any kind, or he can't get a job that he wants?
	Um, it takes him.
	He's on, on and off jobs.
	Um, there's a language barrier.
	Uh, uh, sorry.
	There's a language barrier because he doesn't speak English very well.
	No, because he doesn't speak my language.
	Okay.
	Got it.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	Yes.
	Uh, so.
	And how long has he had... So you guys have... Oh, but was the original idea that he would come to you?
	I'm trying to figure out how he ends up trying to build a relationship which he's known for years might involve him learning your language and he hasn't learned your language.
	Because the plan was that I move there first.
	Okay, okay, got it.
	So this was a real change and now he had to come and try and find work but he couldn't because of the language barrier.
	Yeah, correct.
	Got it, got it.
	And then?
	Eventually he did find something, but it was a, you know, like one of those very physical construction work and jobs where they treat you like shit, basically.
	Right.
	But I assume he's working on the language stuff, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And it's perfect today.
	Oh, so he learns your language perfectly?
	Yeah, yeah.
	So, if he learns your language perfectly, why is he working a physical job?
	I thought the reason he couldn't get a better job was because of the language barrier.
	Sorry if I'm confused, but straighten me out.
	Well, it's because he doesn't have a degree.
	That's useful.
	No, I don't think that's it.
	No, no, no, no.
	No, I got jobs with computers with a history degree.
	I got a job programming computers with a history degree.
	So, I'm not saying like I'm the mark of everyone or everything, but, you know, I do a philosophy podcast and I don't have a degree in philosophy, right?
	So, it's not that.
	So, why can't I get a job even if he speaks a language?
	Well, because he wanted to become a lawyer.
	I don't understand how that follows at all.
	Why can't he get a job?
	Well, because he doesn't have a degree, so he can't work at a law firm.
	Well, I get that.
	But if he wanted to become a... Oh my gosh.
	If he wanted to become a lawyer, why did he get an arts degree?
	Or why doesn't he go get a law degree?
	He didn't have it figured out, just like me, I guess.
	Oh, he didn't know that he wanted to be a lawyer.
	Yeah, exactly.
	Okay, so when he finds out that he wants to be a lawyer, he doesn't go to school for law?
	He does.
	He gets into school here after having to do some completion courses.
	Okay, so he gets into school to be a lawyer in your country?
	Yeah.
	Okay, but you guys aren't living together?
	We're living together at my parents' and then we moved to my own place.
	Or our own place.
	So, is he staying now because he's a student?
	Is that right?
	No, he got a job now.
	Oh, so he's doing the manual labour and studying to be a lawyer at night?
	Yeah.
	Okay, got it.
	And then?
	And then we just sort of figured out, we tried to figure out like what I wanted to do.
	I had no flipping clue, so I thought that I wanted to become a stay-at-home wife, but in his country.
	Uh, because there was more like a family value environment sort of thing going on was my understanding in his country.
	And how's, how are you with his language?
	Good.
	Okay.
	So you might want to be a stay at home mom.
	He's in school.
	And so you talk about that with him, like, let's get married.
	Let's have kids.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And how old are you at this point?
	Uh, Twenty-six?
	Twenty-seven?
	Okay.
	And are you working at this point?
	I'm studying right now.
	Now I know what I want to do.
	How long have you been studying for here?
	A year?
	You've been here for eight years!
	I know, I know, I know.
	So you got your PhD or Master's or like?
	No, I was just working before.
	You were working, okay.
	I thought I could, yeah, I thought I could, you know, work my way up, but it doesn't really... Sorry, work your way up in the field that you were educated in?
	No, work my way up in just manial freaking, what do you say, like sales crap.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So you go back to school.
	Yeah, I go back to school because I just want to pick something now and get on with it.
	But sorry, how does going back to school... I guess you were already in grad school, right?
	So are you going back to school for your PhD, or... I'm sorry, I forgot the timeline off.
	No, we were on his timeline, now we jumped to my timeline.
	Oh, his timeline in grad school.
	Sorry, I thought you said, I remember you saying, like, what's the English phrase, grad school, and I said yes, and that's after your undergraduate, so I thought that was you.
	Is that you or him?
	No, that was me.
	Okay, so you were in grad school.
	I don't have university.
	I never went to uni.
	Okay, so like, yeah, okay, okay.
	So anyway, so you go back, are you going back at 26 to get your master's?
	Or something like it, right?
	I mean, to more education.
	Yeah, something like that, yeah.
	But I'm completely, I'm going to change it, field, completely.
	Okay.
	Now, if you want to be a stay-at-home mom, why are you going back to school?
	Because when we figured out that we should be the stay-at-home mom and working mom sort of thing, in this country, we tried moving there, and I absolutely hated it.
	So you can't be a stay-at-home mom in his country, although you could live there legally, right?
	I could live there illegally, but... Sorry, illegally or legally?
	Legally, but there was more fighting with bureaucracy and we both got fed up.
	Oh, there was more fighting to get you to stay?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, then you decide not to do the stay-at-home-mom thing, is that right?
	Because you're gonna work at this point because you don't like his country.
	Also, like, in any country, if you're gonna move to any country, nobody's gonna be like, oh, you're gonna be a stay-at-home-mom?
	Yeah, sure, come here, don't...
	Come here and you can get access to all these state services without contributing a dime the way we want you to.
	And you can understand that, right?
	Now, why is it that you guys hadn't gotten married?
	I mean, I'm no expert in this, but I assume it would make the immigration stuff slightly easier.
	No, it wouldn't.
	Oh, it doesn't matter?
	Okay.
	No.
	All right.
	Listen, I'll obviously defer to your expertise.
	You've been working with this stuff for years.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	No, it just doesn't matter.
	It's not like in the US, it doesn't hold the same weight here.
	Got it.
	Okay.
	And was there a time when you did want to get married or that wasn't particularly on your radar?
	I wanted to get married before I had children.
	That was the only rule.
	And so, did you want to get married?
	Forget the kids, right?
	I mean, did you want to get married?
	No, he proposed to me.
	How old were you when he proposed to you?
	22?
	22, okay.
	And you said no.
	No, I said yes.
	You said yes, okay.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Then we didn't get on with it.
	It was just a nightmare because, first of all, there's, believe it or not, three countries involved.
	Because I said my parents are immigrants, right?
	So there's three countries involved, my home country, my parents' home country, his country, my boyfriend's country.
	And it was a bit of a logistical nightmare.
	Also, we had this vision that we wanted to invite everyone and it didn't happen because there was so much shit going on.
	And the whole bureaucracy thing just, it threw me off because, you see, if we came to a point where this is never legally going to work, I don't want to have to go through a divorce.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I mean, sorry.
	I mean, I feel we're spending a lot of time at the bureaucracy, which I understand is a big deal, but doesn't have much philosophical import.
	And well, while you have my sympathies, of course, so.
	Okay.
	So you go to grad school or you go to higher education and he's working to be a lawyer, right?
	Okay.
	And then?
	So we live in his country and I hate it because a million different reasons.
	So we moved back to my country.
	Now he's working, I'm studying, I am done next year.
	At which point we were planning to have children.
	So you're done your studies next year, and how is he?
	He's almost done his law stuff?
	He's working.
	Oh, so he's working as a lawyer?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, got it, got it.
	All right.
	Yeah.
	So is there an issue that you wanted to, and I appreciate the update and the information,
	it's very helpful, and was there something in particular that you wanted to talk about
	regarding the relationship?
	Jesus, that's the... Let me have a couple seconds to think.
	Yeah, I mean, the reason I'm asking is that when it came to your boyfriend, that's sort of when you hung up on me?
	Yeah, because I just wanted to sort of point out that's interesting because we've had a long conversation about how your parents don't apologize, right?
	Yeah.
	And, uh... It's rude to hang up on someone, right?
	Oh, sorry.
	Did you accept my apology or not?
	Well, generally, if you're talking again, it's usually important to mention it.
	Like, I'm sorry, that was kind of rude.
	I mean, maybe it's an old British thing for me.
	It's just kind of a politeness thing.
	But that's when you kind of freaked out yesterday.
	And the context of the conversation yesterday was I was saying that if someone really loves you, then they can't stand to see you being hurt.
	And if there are people in your life who are hurting you, he's going to set himself against them, right?
	Yes, that's correct.
	And I just want to say again, I really apologize for my abruption yesterday.
	No problem.
	I'm very sorry.
	I appreciate that.
	That was rude.
	I appreciate that.
	So, yeah, why was that?
	I mean, maybe he has said, you know, gosh, this is, I mean, I remember you said, let's not talk to our parents.
	No, he said, let's not talk to our parents.
	But you didn't want to do that, right?
	No, I didn't.
	I did not.
	So why was it troublesome to you when I said that someone who, I'm not saying he doesn't love you, but I mean, I think there are levels of love, if that makes sense.
	And where we mess up in our levels of love is we appease rather than stand for values.
	Right?
	So, and this is, this is tough for men these days.
	I'll just give you the male perspective.
	So from the male perspective, we're trained and raised to please women.
	And we also, of course, have a biological drive and desire to do that.
	And so, for your boyfriend, if he says, I assume he has some issues with your parents, is that right?
	Uh, yes.
	And he knows that you've tried to talk to your parents about the problems you have with their parenting, and they've totally blown you off, right?
	Yeah, he does.
	Okay, so he knows all of that.
	He also knows that you don't want to spend time with your parents, but you do it out of a sense of guilt and fear.
	Is that right?
	Yeah, an obligation.
	Yeah, obligation.
	So, does he like your parents?
	No.
	Okay.
	So, and that makes sense.
	He couldn't love you and like your parents.
	Like that just wouldn't be a thing, right?
	So for men, we want to stand tall and we want to be like, no, like you are hurting, and this is going to sound very primal, but I'm sure it's going on for him.
	You're hurting my woman.
	I don't like you.
	Get lost.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Like, if he had a friend who kept putting you down, oh man, you could do better, she's too this, she's too that, he'd be like, no, this is the woman I love, get lost.
	Like, no.
	Then he wouldn't do that.
	Right.
	So, he wants to assert himself in protection of you.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	And, you know, obviously he's got his own issues with his own parents, as you sort of alluded to in the last convo, but he wants to assert himself in protection of you, because that's what bros do.
	That's what we're kind of all about.
	Now, the problem is, though, there's a real contradiction and a collision, which happens when we say, I want to protect my wife or my girlfriend from people who treat her badly, but she gets very upset when I want to protect her.
	Does that make sense?
	Yes.
	Because then she says, you protecting me is causing me massive distress, right?
	Yes, that's basically exactly what I say, yeah.
	So then he says, oh my gosh, I want to protect her, but I'm harming her by protecting her.
	Because she's so upset about me wanting to protect her.
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah, correct.
	And so then you have a problem because you can't protect your partner.
	And that's really troubling for men.
	Because we hate seeing our women mistreated.
	And if the woman says, If you try to protect me, you're kind of the bad guy.
	In other words, you're making me really upset and I can't handle it.
	I mean, that's kind of why you hung up yesterday, right?
	Because this contradiction, I assume, was coming to light.
	So you won't, you won't... Are you ready for this one?
	You won't submit to his protective authority.
	I was just going to say I messed it up all on myself.
	No, no, no, I'm not going to conclusions here.
	I haven't said any negative things about you at all.
	So, I'm not getting to you messed it up and you're like, no, no, we're not going to do that.
	I don't want you to be mean to you either.
	No, I'm making that judgment on myself and thinking like... No, no, you're not processing what I'm saying.
	You're rushing to a kind of self-abusive conclusion.
	Okay, okay, okay, sorry.
	I'll just follow along.
	Right, so you jump straight into, oh, I messed it all, like, that's, that's not good.
	I just got a cold shower there.
	A what?
	Like a, a cold shower, like an epiphany, like, oh, right.
	Well, that's why I'm trying to slow your roll here.
	That's why I'm trying to slow you down.
	So you don't jump straight to self-attack.
	I'm not, I'm just pointing out the mechanics.
	Now, you didn't know these mechanics consciously, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	So, are there areas in which your boyfriend defers to your judgment?
	Uh, yeah.
	Okay.
	I mean, um... You don't have to give them to me, I'm just... There are areas where you say, it should be this way, and he's like, okay.
	It's your thing, right?
	Yes.
	I mean, for me, apparently I have to wear my underpants inside the pants.
	That's just, maybe it's a Greek thing.
	I don't know.
	But I'm just like, okay.
	And it's not even like, okay, fine.
	It's just like, yeah, okay.
	Apparently we need 4,000 decorative pillars.
	I don't know why.
	Maybe asteroids hit us and we're protected.
	I'm not sure why, but we need them and they have to be stacked in a particular way and sequence with a particular shading and gradient scale.
	I don't think I'm that bad.
	No, no, it's good.
	I love it.
	It's beautiful.
	I think it's great.
	I love living in girly world, man.
	It's way better than bachelor world, which is a futon and a big TV.
	So no, my wife makes the world beautiful and I love it.
	I don't understand it.
	It's delightfully incomprehensible, but I love living here.
	I mean, I live in a model home, so to speak, right?
	Because I think a lot of women have this fear that Architectural Digest is going to come in like a SWAT team and take pictures of their house any time, day or night, or Heaven forbid that mother-in-law is going to come over and run her fingers along the mantelpiece.
	Oh, a little dusty, isn't it?
	Oh gosh, that would be horrible.
	Right.
	Got it.
	No, I got it.
	Right.
	I got it.
	So there are areas in which he defers to you, no questions asked, right?
	Yeah, when it comes to decorating, definitely.
	Right, yeah, you're the kind of like, no, I think I preferred it back over there.
	And he's like, okay, I'll be a forklift, right?
	Or it's like, do you prefer the left one or the right one?
	I prefer the right one.
	No, I think it's the left one.
	I think that's the better one.
	Well, I appreciate you giving me the input, right?
	So no, it's just a kind of funny thing about men and women.
	So there are areas in which you have, in a sense, unquestioned authority, right?
	Yes.
	So, in what do you defer to him?
	and he has unquestioned authority.
	It was much of the migration thing.
	No, no, that's not his unquestioned authority because he doesn't have authority in that.
	He's begging bureaucrats for pieces of paper, so he doesn't have authority.
	Where he has authority, Um... Hmm... Can I get a few seconds to think on that?
	Yes, but it didn't take you long to think of your authority.
	Yeah, but you led me up to it.
	It wasn't like you asked, hey, what's your authority?
	All right, fair.
	A very fair point.
	Go ahead.
	Should I answer what his authority is? I'm so afraid you're going to say,
	No, it's not a real authority.
	Why would you be afraid of that?
	I mean, either it is or it isn't.
	You just corrected me and I said that's a very good point and go ahead and It's just sort of like the long-term planning of our life.
	Yeah, that's too abstract to me.
	That's very foggy.
	Like where your will and his will clash and you just say to him, well, I love you.
	So I'm just going to, you know, you're better at this than I am and do what you say.
	I think, I think that when it comes to raising children, No, no.
	You don't have kids yet, so what do you defer to in reality?
	And this is not a criticism of you.
	I'm trying to think, because we try to keep everything very flat, and that's probably not good.
	Oh, you don't have authority with each other, right?
	Much.
	We don't really work like that.
	We try... Yeah, but it's not really working, right?
	True.
	Okay, so I'll just give you the real quick view of how you got here.
	So, because you were unprotected as a child, you had to protect yourself, and you couldn't rely on anyone else's judgment, because the judgment of your parents, as we talked about last time, was pretty bad, right?
	They break up, they make up, they fight all the day, they can't protect their... not only can they not protect their child, from online adults, but they invite him to come and stay at your house, right?
	So you don't grow up with a sense of protection, and your early memory of your father screaming at your mother that he's leaving, and your feeling that you're going to starve, is like, I'm not protected, I'm not safe.
	Now, if you're not protected and you're not safe, you can't trust.
	If you can't trust, you can't defer to other people's judgment, because other people's judgment sucks.
	So you can't merge.
	You can't pair bond.
	Pair Bond is where you trust the other person to the point where I'm like, you know what?
	You can do half my thinking.
	You can do half my thinking.
	Can you imagine?
	There's two people trying to move a whole bunch of heavy furniture and they never pick up anything together.
	Imagine how horrible and unproductive that would be.
	Right?
	You've got a giant couch and you've got to move it yourself.
	Payback!
	Without anyone helping you.
	You got everything you've got to do by yourself.
	You never pick up half of anything.
	Does that make sense?
	That makes a lot of sense.
	You don't know how to trust in the way that you can offload decision-making to your husband, and maybe he doesn't know much about how to trust to offload his decision-making to you, but that is a very high level of productive love.
	It's not just Great from a trust standpoint.
	It's great from a practicality standpoint.
	You just get things done a whole lot easier.
	I'm sure you know something about the economics of the division of labor, right?
	That Canada is good at making maple syrup and not so good at making bananas.
	So it trades maple syrup with a country that's good at growing bananas, right?
	And that's better, right?
	So the division of labor and specialization can't occur in a relatively trustless marriage.
	And I'm not saying you don't trust your husband or your boyfriend.
	I'm just saying that you don't, I think, know how to offload half your work to him.
	Where he's better at things, and he doesn't know how to offload half his work to you, where you're better at things.
	That's why you say you want to keep it flat, you want to keep your decision making equal and so on, or you both have to agree on stuff.
	Well, that's not good.
	That's not good.
	Because when it comes to decorating, who's better?
	Yeah, me.
	Yeah, you.
	So, he does what you like, right?
	So, it's efficient.
	Imagine if you had to have a debate about every lamp, every painting decision, every couch, and you both had to come to, like, it would be crazy, right?
	It would, actually, yeah.
	Right.
	So, as far as the effects of not trusting others, which, by the by, was completely rational when you were growing up, right?
	That's good to hear.
	I mean, it was completely rational in my view.
	I mean, your parents couldn't manage their relationship with each other.
	They did things directly harmful to you.
	Like screaming that the marriage is over and you perceiving you're going to starve to death and not comforting you at all, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I posed the theoretical question to my daughter, right?
	I said, you know, imagine, I didn't say anything about this, right?
	But I said, you know, okay, imagine some, you know, some kid is watching her parents fight and she hears all this terrible stuff and then the parents notice her, what should they do, right?
	And she's like, oh, go and comfort her.
	Nothing big bad is happening.
	We're just having a disagreement.
	Don't worry about it.
	Hug, hug, kiss, right?
	Yeah, they should have done that.
	Well, first of all, they shouldn't be screaming these terrible threats at each other.
	Obviously.
	And secondly, if they find themselves in this absolutely petty, vicious and ridiculous and immature situation, they should absolutely take ownership and apologize and promise to do better.
	And do better, right?
	Yeah.
	Exactly.
	You need to do better!
	Right.
	So they don't do that.
	So how are you going to trust them?
	This relationship, and I'm not saying that the relationship with your boyfriend is bad or negative.
	We haven't really talked about that, but I mean, you've been together for 14 years, so something's working, right?
	But your relationship was utterly founded on absolutely insane allowances.
	Right?
	The entire relationship with your boyfriend is founded on your parents inviting a 19-year-old who's romantically and sexually interested in their 16-year-old to come and sleep under their roof from another country, knowing how complicated that would be.
	I mean, how could this work out?
	Right?
	I mean, the best case scenario is you guys are together and then there's all of this paperwork.
	The worst case scenario is you get your heart broken or something like that.
	How could this work out?
	Hmm.
	So, the entire foundation of your relationship is... untrustworthy unprotection.
	It makes me very sad to hear that, but it's the truth, isn't it?
	Well... You just had your lady brain activated.
	And I appreciate that.
	I love the lady brain.
	But sadness is a female response.
	What's the male response?
	Anger.
	Right.
	So when you get sad, you want to go to your parents and get comforted.
	You want to work it out.
	You want to talk with them.
	You want to be heard.
	Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
	Right?
	The male response of anger is what?
	What?
	Oh gosh.
	Their response to my anger or?
	No!
	The situation.
	So, when you get how the foundation of your relationship with your boyfriend was based on absolutely repellent, in my view, and bad parenting, and you're like, well, that makes me sad, and listen, I appreciate that, love women, and that's a beautiful response.
	What's the male response to this situation is anger, Oh, that's why he can't draw any boundaries, because your parents' bad decisions are why you're together.
	So how can he really draw any boundaries with your parents when it was their judgment that allowed you guys to get started in the first place?
	There we go.
	If you'd had better parents, you guys would never be together, right?
	Probably not.
	No, of course not.
	Because, honestly, I mean, any parent with any shred of self-protection would, first of all, be talking to you quite a bit about who you're chatting to online.
	And secondly, you know, you're a 16-year-old young lady, you want to date, you want to... So they would try and facilitate that.
	I mean, there were no boys around at that age that you wanted to date?
	No, I wasn't interested in...
	So...
	Anything like that.
	And were there any boys at that age that were pursuing you, outside of this 19-year-old?
	Yes.
	And why did you prefer the 19-year-old, do you think?
	And I'm not saying he doesn't have great qualities, I'm just... I mean, they had to be pretty bad around you, these guys, if you want the 19-year-old from a couple of countries over.
	I mean... Well, there's a language barrier, too, to some degree.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	I mean, I felt like my boyfriend wasn't a creep and that the others were.
	I felt like the others didn't have respect for any boundaries that I had.
	Like they were awkward, grabby, 16-year-old boys kind of thing?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And my preference, or my boyfriend wasn't at all like that, and we were more like a friendship.
	Right.
	I also got a bit excited because I wasn't sure that he really liked me romantically, You can't be this naive about men.
	You know, he's my greatest friend and he wants to come and visit me.
	No, it wasn't like that.
	It was just like, I felt as if...
	I could pick someone here that was touchy, grabby, immature, blah, blah.
	Or I could pick someone over there who I have way better chemistry with and we actually have mutual interests.
	But you understand that he was... the relationship grew starting when you were 15?
	Is that right?
	Because you said you talked for a year first?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Right.
	He was 18, you were 15.
	Can you tell me this was cursed from the beginning?
	No.
	See, you keep jumping to these conclusions.
	Okay, I just wanted to know, good.
	I'm not sure where we are.
	Where are we going?
	I know where we are.
	It's like, no, we don't know.
	I don't know.
	I don't know.
	But I got to tell you, I mean, I have a 15 year old daughter.
	If some guy was chatting her up online, he was 18.
	Well, that wouldn't happen because we know what she's doing.
	But what do you think I would do?
	You would do a Liam Neeson on her.
	No, I wouldn't do that.
	But I would just call them up and say, you know, bro, back off.
	Get someone your own age.
	Like, don't do this.
	This is not right.
	She's 15.
	And listen, you were 15 and traumatized.
	Yeah.
	And traumatized, which means that you were younger mentally than your physical age.
	Because you were un-tutored, un-mentored.
	You had been un-parented.
	Yeah, I was definitely like a sitting duck, yeah.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And he would have known that.
	Yeah, but I don't think that automatically means that he was like a predator or anything.
	I didn't say that.
	Okay, I just want to get that out of the way, but yeah, you're right in everything that you said, yeah.
	Right.
	And the reason I'm saying all of this is you have kids.
	You're gonna have to protect them.
	I know that.
	You can literally go into a chat room today and say, hi, I'm 12.
	Want to talk?
	Yep.
	And you're going to get a hundred messages within 10 seconds.
	I know.
	I know that.
	I know.
	And I would never in my wildest, I honestly, this is something I've thought about a lot.
	I don't even, it doesn't seem realistic to me, but I don't know how the hell me and My boyfriend are going to like, what kind of tactics we're going to have to avoid this happening exactly.
	But yeah, I think about that very often, like how the heck... Your 15 year old daughter comes to you and says, I'm becoming great friends with an 18 year old man.
	I would freak the hell out and throw the computer out.
	Well, so that's a challenge.
	Now, your boyfriend, it feels weird to call him like boyfriend 14 years.
	I mean, you guys married longer than most medieval marriages, but so your boyfriend, and I have to go in about 20 to 25 minutes.
	I'm sorry about that.
	I have an appointment.
	We'll get there.
	Okay.
	So your boyfriend, He wants to protect you from your parents, is that right?
	He's not a fan of your parents.
	He knows that you get hurt and upset when you spend time with them and so on, right?
	Exactly.
	I also want to say that I want to move into a particular field, a particular small little thing that I want some help with, so maybe we can move along a bit faster if you want?
	Sure, absolutely.
	So, you're going to have to find some way to defer your trust to him where his instincts for protection are, right?
	This is the male instinct for protection, right?
	Okay.
	The male instinct for protection is I want to make sure that the people around me have some sense of security, which means malign forces and malign people have to either be resolved, have to be made more friendly, or we have to keep them at a distance.
	And you won't let that go.
	And you play him!
	Because you know he wants to protect you.
	And I'm sure that the upset is partly authentic, but the upset is also coming from your parents.
	Who want to stay in touch with you.
	And the upset is also partly manipulative, which is that you know he wants to protect you.
	And if you broadcast a lot of unhappiness when he tries to protect you, that you're going to short circuit his protection and thus not have to draw boundaries with your parents.
	All right.
	If you want to go fast, we could do it that way.
	Yeah, sure.
	Okay.
	All right.
	So let's get to your topic.
	I'm just not... I'm just gonna say one thing.
	It wasn't, like, conscious.
	Like, I'm not trying to play him out of maliciousness or anything like that.
	You actually made me aware of this whole dynamic about ten minutes ago.
	So, obviously, I'm gonna have to, like... Yeah, but you're responsible for it not being conscious.
	Yeah.
	You're right.
	Okay.
	All right.
	I'm so sorry.
	I'm going to have to actually go a little bit sooner than I thought.
	So I'm happy to hit the gas at the end here and how it's going to help you.
	Okay.
	I want to know why, like, cause he says that in the future he wants to move to another country, like a country that we haven't, you know, We don't have any particular connection to.
	He doesn't know which one yet.
	He says that there's some problems with my country that he just doesn't like.
	And he wants to move to this third country, wherever it might be, for career options.
	And I just feel like, no.
	Wait, didn't he just become a lawyer and he wants to change countries?
	Doesn't he have to retrain?
	I know.
	But he says he doesn't like this country's values for raising children.
	Okay.
	So, this is your trust thing, right?
	Yeah.
	You're good at some things, he should defer to you.
	He's good at some things, you should defer to him.
	Can I say my reasons for saying no?
	I have three.
	What do you mean, saying no?
	Not wanting to go.
	Well, no, not wanting to go is not the same as saying no.
	Is it?
	I don't want to go to the dentist.
	Does that mean I don't go to the dentist?
	I don't understand.
	No, no, I get it.
	I just want to say that, first of all, I have a good social circle here.
	That's not my parents.
	I have friends who I really, really like and who are honest with me.
	And are good people with children.
	And I imagine that would be a good community once we got children.
	Sorry, is he concerned about political unrest?
	Is he concerned about violence or crime in the country that you're in?
	What are his major concerns?
	Just the social aspect being stiff, he thinks.
	Okay, I'm not quite sure what that means.
	I'm sorry, people are cold?
	Yeah, it's just kind of like the introversion and the aversion to anything that's not their own culture, if you know what I mean.
	Right.
	Well, I mean, so there's a couple of factors that I would say are probably kind of relevant.
	Like, he's in his thirties, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So if he's in his thirties, you're in your late twenties and you want to have kids, maybe it's time to settle the hell down.
	Stop moving around and stop bouncing around.
	And I mean, you've got to go start a new place.
	That's new paperwork.
	That's he's got to retrain.
	That's you've got to get a whole new social circle.
	If it's not like there's going to be civil war, you know, and it's like, well, people are a little cold.
	It's like, come on, man.
	I mean, this is where you, this is where you train to be a lawyer.
	Like at some point you have to commit to your decisions and stop bouncing around like a pinball.
	Yeah, I know.
	I'm exhausted too.
	Yeah.
	And, and it's, it's, it's not about that because this will absolutely delay you guys getting married and having kids.
	I know.
	So this could be a form of treading water, right?
	You know what I mean?
	Like this could be a form of, I don't want to move to the next step of my life.
	So let's go on another chaotic adventure.
	Yeah.
	That's my, that's what I'm afraid of.
	Cause it's not about protection, right?
	Nope.
	Okay, so he's just, the people here are kind of cold, so let's uproot ourselves.
	Claims that it's a form of protection to our eventual children.
	Are your children, are you going to homeschool your kids?
	You're not allowed to homeschool here.
	Oh, okay.
	But he's never talked about that, so I don't think it's that.
	I just think he thinks that the kid's going to be bullied or something.
	The kid's going to be bullied?
	Yeah, he already made it up in his mind that everyone gets bullied here in those school shootings.
	I don't know, man.
	He spends too much time on Reddit reading crap.
	Yeah, right.
	I mean, school shootings are down in most places, but... Yeah, so here's the thing, though.
	I would say that's not the actual topic.
	Like, whatever the topic is, it's not that.
	Right.
	And so I would say figure out how safe and secure you can become in your current environment by trusting each other and see how you feel after that.
	Right?
	Cause if there's something else going on, which is, Hey, let's move again.
	Right?
	I mean, he's tried living in your country.
	You've tried living in his country.
	Let's go live in a third country where I have to retrain as a lawyer.
	I mean, that's, that's a, I mean, at some point you've got to put down roots and start a life.
	Right.
	And who knows if you're going to like the new country.
	Right?
	That could be a huge issue.
	And then you've got maybe another language barrier and people who can't help you raise your friends.
	Maybe he wants to get you away from your parents.
	I don't know.
	Right?
	But there's something going on that's not that topic.
	And you guys just need to really be honest and try and figure out what that is.
	I think that he wants to take back some of his, you know, authority.
	I mean, and he may be right in that.
	Yeah.
	You know, it's funny because, I mean, I've talked to a lot of women and a lot of women are like, well, here's where I'm the boss.
	And it's like, well, where's your boyfriend, the boss?
	Silence, silence, silence.
	It's like, well, if you can't submit to him just as you expect him to submit to you, you can't have a very loving relationship.
	Because a man looks at a woman who won't submit to the stuff the man's good at and say, she doesn't trust me.
	And if she doesn't trust me, she doesn't love me.
	And there's a holiness at the heart of our relationship.
	But listen, so what you've said is it doesn't make sense to move somewhere new.
	In his mind, he's... Okay, let's just assume he's trying to take back authority because If we move to this place, he has to fix everything.
	He has to have authority to get us settled and put down roots.
	I think that's what he's trying to do here.
	Well, no, listen, you guys, I mean, sorry, I do have to run, but you guys just have to have a conversation and explore where he has authority.
	And figure that out.
	And you're going to have to deal with the fact that I think, and for reasons I can completely sympathize with, you grew up without a lot of trust in your life.
	And so you want to think through everything yourself.
	That's why the very first thing I said, you're kind of an overthinker, right?
	And you overthink because of a lack of trust in others.
	And I completely understand that when you were growing up.
	But you're going to have to find a way to trust your boyfriend.
	Otherwise, he's going to perceive that as a lack of love.
	I understand.
	Can you give me some suggestions on areas where he could be responsible?
	No, that's his job.
	I can't be authority for him.
	Right?
	I don't know.
	Okay.
	Yeah, he's going to have to tell you, and maybe, obviously, there'll be a couple of conversations, but that would be my suggestion, and you have to figure out.
	If there's no area where he's in an authority position, then you'd have a non-trust relationship, and that's going to kind of, I think, hamper a lot of progress.
	What is typical?
	Because, wait, just this last thing.
	I feel so freaking brainwashed and... By modernism?
	By feminism?
	But just give me an idea, please.
	I just don't know.
	No, so you're asking me to be in an authority position with regards to your boyfriend's authority position, but that's his job.
	So you have to talk to him, and you have to find some way to surrender to what he's better at, and just as he has already surrendered to what you're better at, so that he can feel loved, and he can feel trusted.
	And if you have that, Now, he may say, well, if you trust me, we'll move to another country and so on.
	Yeah.
	But you'd have to talk more about in the past where he's tried to protect you and you have resisted it with regards to your parents and so on, right?
	So I think that's important.
	Anyway, I'm so sorry.
	I do have to boogie.
	And if you guys want to talk to me together, that's fine.
	You can shoot me an email.
	But I really do appreciate us being able to finish up the conversation.
	And you did a great job.
	Thank you.
	Thanks.
	Bye.
	Thank you.

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