April 23, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:34:40
5477 Taking Care of Aging Parents? Freedomain Call In
Discussion on caller's past relationships, childhood impact on adult relationships, caregiving, and self-prioritization. Stress on honest communication and personal goal alignment for healthy connections and growth.Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!Get my new series on the Truth About the French Revolution, access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and more!See you soon!https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
So yeah, if you want to, you can just read the message or you can just tell me in your words, what, how I can best help.
Okay.
Um, I'll, I'll try to just summarize it.
Um, basically I, I kind of, I guess, conflicting, um, decision and sorry, sorry if I'm kind of
Odd, you know, I just worked out, so I'm still kind of jittery, cooling down, but... And you, are you using a headset, just out of curiosity?
Yeah, it's my Apple AirPod.
Okay, alright.
Yeah, go ahead.
Is that okay?
Audio's not ideal, but it's fine, it's fine, it's fine, so go ahead.
Okay.
Maybe if I put the second one in, it might help.
So, my, I guess, predicament, you could say, is, you know, I'm a
I'm a single child.
I'm a 30-year-old male, single child, and I recently moved.
I'm from the Midwest region of the U.S.
When I moved out West for a job opportunity, I was out there for a couple of years, and it didn't work out for a couple of reasons.
One of the main reasons that I had was being as far from family.
It was very difficult if something were to come up.
If it's a three-day drive, it's a $1,000 ticket on any given day, plane ticket.
So I moved back home to be closer to family, be closer to that support system.
But I guess being here, I don't really have any pull to the area.
I don't have any interest in being here besides family.
So I guess there are times that I feel guilty for not wanting to be here to support my family.
But then there are other times where I feel like that's my responsibility.
And I guess having
Thought about this the last couple of days.
Um, I just, I want to make sure that then it's me making the decision and not like my parents or something.
I think my parents would like.
Okay.
I'm sort of trying to, to, I need to sort of view of your life as a whole.
Uh, if you can tell me a little bit about, uh, dating and, and what's going on with you in terms of relationships, like what's the competing stuff with regards to your, your parents or your mother in particular, right?
Is it just your mother?
Yeah.
Well, so my, my parents divorced when I was young, you know, one or two or something.
So I, I grew up with them being apart.
Uh, but I still saw my father most weekends, every other weekend, you know, I still had a relationship with him.
You know, you get older, you get busy and you see them less.
Um, and I lived with my mother who also had, you know, she had a boyfriend who's been very
Consistent, you know, they've been together since I was in kindergarten or so.
So, so he's basically a stepfather.
Um, so then I guess coming, coming up from that, I had, you know, multiple families you could say in a sense, cause my, my father remarried a couple of times and went through a couple of girlfriends.
Um, and I would, you know, go over there to visit, uh, but I stayed consistently in the same house with my mother.
And I've had a couple of girlfriends throughout my love life.
You know, first girlfriend was, you know, first real girlfriend, real dating was high school, like junior year, high school.
Um, we were together a couple of years, nothing serious.
I mean, you know, we, that, that was my first, uh, sexual encounter.
Um, so that was serious, but it wasn't, it wasn't much past that, you know, we had a difference in opinion and, and how to, you know,
I wanted to go to college.
She didn't want to.
She didn't want to.
She wanted to like move in together and all that.
I had a couple of other kind of short term girlfriends.
One was kind of like, I guess you could say a summer fling.
And that was just before going to college.
And I, you know, my reasoning was I wanted a clean slate.
You know, I wanted to start fresh, you know, nothing tying me down.
And I guess that's been a recurring theme or issue for me is not never
Wanting to feel tied down.
Um, and I guess that relates to buying a house here.
I'm afraid to be tied down to something I don't want.
Um, so past that, uh, my next kind of major girlfriend relationship was, was in college and, um, that was about three years.
We,
We were pretty serious, um, but it, it was, it was definitely an unhealthy relationship.
Um, we started out okay, but it, it was, it was just a lot of, it was a lot.
Uh, and I know that's, I know that's very vague and you hate that.
Um, so like it started out.
You know, we went to like a polyamorous relationship, which I wasn't, you know, that wasn't my idea.
But, you know, it's college, like, okay, I'll give it a try.
Now, obviously, that didn't work.
And we went back.
That's something that she wanted.
Yeah, so she brought it up.
We talked about it.
She said that she wanted to try it.
When we met, I think she was a year younger than me.
She was a freshman when we met.
She brought it up that she wanted to try it.
You know, it's first year kind of, you know, kind of the same reasoning I gave, um, the girlfriend before that, you know, nothing to be tied down.
So I said, okay, you know, we'll try it.
The same reasoning you gave.
So was it that you, you wanted a polyamorous relationship, but the previous, if it's the same reasoning, I've just want to make sure I understand the history.
No, I just that I had told the previous girl.
I had a relationship with that I wanted a fresh start or I didn't want, you know, I wanted new experiences.
So I guess.
Oh, so you broke up with the previous girlfriend saying that you wanted new experiences and then you meet the new girlfriend who wants polyamory.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
And I'm not, yeah, I just want to make sure I understand the sequence.
Go ahead.
Sure.
Sure.
Um, so, and that was, you know, that was maybe a month or so in, you know, we, we had,
A relationship together before that.
And then we did that for maybe a year.
The poly thing for a year.
You had a relationship with each other before that?
I don't know.
Before you went poly?
Yes.
Yes.
Like we were, we were monogamous for about a month or so before that.
Okay.
Um, that's not exactly the Olympics of monogamy, but.
No, no, not at all.
Okay.
So you were monogamous for a month and then she brings up that she wants to go poly, right?
Yes.
And you say, okay.
Right.
I say, okay.
Yeah.
And how, so how does that work in sort of practical terms?
Like you can both then just go and sleep with other people.
Yeah.
So the idea is, um, that I guess there's multiple structures, but the idea is that there's a main, a main relationship and then they,
Consensually can see other people.
So long as there's the, that main maintenance of the main relationship, at least that's how it was.
That's how I interpreted it.
You know, when I looked into it and when it was explained to me, well, this is what your girlfriend said, right?
Like you're my primary boyfriend, but I want to have sex with other other men.
Right.
Right.
Um, and, um, so it, it didn't, I,
You know, I, I'm thinking, you know, I'm not necessarily a ladies man or a player or anything like that, but, you know, you have that thought like, okay, well maybe this will be interesting or fun, but that never really happened.
I never, it just never really felt right to me.
And then of course she had a couple of encounters with people.
I don't know how to term it.
Um, and, but it ended up right.
Yeah.
Well, no, really it was, um, excuse me.
I'm sorry.
Um, there, there was one guy that she, she got into like another relationship with that she was having sex with.
Uh, the other times were like, so dude, dude, I don't know what you're talking about.
Sorry.
You, you keep rushing all over the place and I'm, I'm dragged along here.
Okay.
So you're supposed to be the primary boyfriend and now you're telling me she got into a relationship with another guy.
Right.
So isn't that breaking the polyamory thing?
Right.
Okay, so you gotta help me here.
I don't know what you're talking about.
You keep rushing along like I know what the hell you're talking about.
I'm sorry.
No, it's like, okay, so just slow down and tell me what the hell happened.
So she said, you'll be my primary boyfriend, I'm just gonna fuck other guys.
And then she ended up getting, what, bonded and into a relationship with some other guy?
Yeah, essentially.
Wait, so what do you mean by, now essentially it's another word, I don't know, if that's not accurate, tell me how that's not accurate.
No, I, that's, that's honestly, that's accurate.
She got into another... Okay, so essentially that's just what it was, right?
Correct.
Okay, got it.
So, yeah, she... And did she tell you, um, I'm, you're now the side piece and he's the main attraction, or, or how did that work?
Uh, it was, there was a, I, I brought it up
Many times.
Um, it was kind of like I was that, that, that very, that very question, like, am I the main piece and still, um, but how did you know that she was in a relationship with another guy?
She told me she said, I'm now somebody else's girlfriend or how did she say, how did she put it?
Yeah.
Well, like I'm seeing this other guy, you know, I'm with this other guy where, you know, it was never explicit, like I'm,
I don't want to swear, I'm having sex with this guy, but we were very clear.
Sorry, what do you mean wasn't explicit?
I mean, you're in a polyamorous relationship, and she's with another guy.
I don't want to be explicit on this call.
What do you mean?
I don't want to drop F-bombs.
Oh, I don't care about that.
Oh, I mean, that's the least offensive thing to me of anything that you're saying.
So go ahead.
Um, you know, it's not like we were talking and she was, she was like, yes, I'm fucking him.
But it was like, yes, we're, we're, we're having sex.
I, it was, I understood that.
So she said, she didn't say I'm fucking him, but she said, I'm having sex with him.
Yeah.
What are you talking about?
Isn't that the same thing?
Sorry, I'm misunderstanding something, and I'm not particularly familiar with this community, so forgive my ignorance, but she said, I'm not fucking him, but I'm having sex with him.
I'm trying to remember the train of thinking that made me say all that.
Um, okay.
If it's fine, we don't worry about it too much.
So she said, I'm having sex with this other man.
What's the deal?
Like, was there a limit?
Was there a timeout?
Like you can't have sex more than three times.
Otherwise that's a relationship or, or how did it work?
And like, if you say, well, we can have sex with other people.
Is there some rule that says, but not too many times.
Cause that's like a relationship or, or what?
No, there wasn't really anything like that.
But what happened was basically I would see her during the week and then she would see the other guy during the weekend.
Oh, okay.
Got it.
So you were like the workday sex and he was the weekend sex.
Yeah.
And let me say that it was, it was a very sexual relationship.
Um, there, you know, looking back on it now, there wasn't really much of a real relationship.
Sorry, you mean your relationship with her?
Yeah.
And what was her childhood like?
Uh, pretty bad.
Um, I guess she was, um, I don't, I don't know the full context, but I guess she was sexually assaulted when she was little.
Um, she, well, of course she was right.
Right.
I guess she, she was adopted.
Um, apparently, and this is all from her, but, um,
I guess her biological mother tried to abort her, but she still was born.
She was put up for adoption.
Adopted by parents in Mexico.
So she grew up in Mexico.
She had a lot of depression.
Wait, so sorry, she was adopted out of the country?
Yeah, I'm not sure.
Supposedly she was born in Spain.
And then was somehow adopted.
I don't know if, I don't quite know.
Oh, maybe they were relatives or something like that, but.
Yeah.
And, and, and I know she said that she had tried to find information, but her, she, either her parents, her adoptive parents never let her or were hiding something.
I'm not entirely sure.
And then she was sexually assaulted by her adopted, like the people who adopted her.
No, just the.
Family like cousins or something like that.
Um, and she She had brought it up and you know, they they didn't believe her um and I get and I guess I I don't know if it was that alone or if just other things but she she developed depression You know, she was clinically, you know, she went to some uh like psychiatrists and medication and all that she had um
History of drug problems, drug addiction.
So, not very good.
So, why were you dating her?
I guess... Well, she's a really broken person, right?
He's been really terribly abused.
Right.
I think the first part is the sex.
You know, she was an attractive woman.
I mean, girl.
You know, and I was into that.
Um, but I, I think I have, I don't know, I'm have that fix a girl complex kind of thing.
But I, sorry, I thought you said that there was mostly just sex, which, so there's not much fixing going on if you're just having sex with her, right?
Yeah.
I didn't do a very good job.
Okay, so what happened for the long run with this girl?
Well, long run, we eventually, we lose the other guy.
That's a weird way of saying it.
She dumps or they break up, the other relationship, they break up.
Yeah.
Um, so we're together for maybe another year, just us.
And then it's kind of off and on.
Sorry.
When you say just us, does that mean you hit the polyamory?
Yeah.
We came back to monogamy.
And how did that come about?
Um, just all of this.
Uh, I brought it up.
Um, I said, I don't like this.
Um, and.
It, you know, we, I think the other dude was moving away too, or I don't know.
Um, I've tried, I've tried not to, um, and so we do that.
I guess I should also say that while this is all through college, so we're kind of only dating partially because we're, we're only dating during the school year.
When the summer comes up, when summer break comes out, like we go on a break.
Um, now she.
Has said, you know, we've talked about it later, you know, we've we've since talked since breaking up and she she said that it's She felt like she wanted to let me be free.
You know, she didn't want to tie me down you know, I took it as she wanted to go run around but I Never saw any evidence of that But sorry to answer the question that's kind of what it became we fizzled out we
We were kind of on again, off again for about another year and then we officially broke up and parted ways.
I moved back home from college town.
Okay.
Got it.
And how early was your exposure to pornography?
If that was the case?
I would say...
I don't know.
I don't know specifically.
I would say, you know, maybe like 12 or 13.
You know, I wasn't super young.
I was kind of like that pre-teen era.
Okay.
And did you have any controls on that, or did your parents or your mother and stepfather
Manage that or deal with that at all?
Um, they, I mean, they, they tried, you know, they did what they could, uh, you know, um, and there was a time when, you know, I, I was looking up music videos on YouTube, um, and they, you know, I guess
I got the impression, you know, my mom approached me and said, like, what are you using the site for?
Like looking up music videos.
And I was like, no, like that's, you know, I've been told that's not what that site is used for.
Like, so what do you, like, so I had to show her like my search history, like this is, I was looking up.
So I don't know, I don't know what she thought was on there.
Um, I've heard, you know, YouTube was pretty spicy in the early days.
Um, so when, you know, when she had the impression, she, she did try to manage it, but
You know, I also, I wasn't trying to, I was trying to hide it.
I would just use, you know, just, I think Google search.
That's, that's how that was.
Okay.
All right.
Um, okay.
So you ended up, uh, doing, uh, not, not seeing this woman over the summers and then it fizzled out or, or how did that go?
End of school or?
Yeah, it fizzled out.
We, I, I stayed in town.
Uh, after graduating college, I stayed in the town, renting a house for, for a year afterwards.
Um, and we, um, I, you could say we broke up like at the beginning of that.
And we were kind of on and off throughout that year.
Um, not the full year, you know, maybe like nine months.
Um, and at that point I had, I think she, she was renting a house.
Somewhere in town.
And I, I think she still had another year of school and I, I moved back home to my parents' house.
And is that when it fizzled out?
So I'm just trying to follow when it, Oh, I assume it has, right?
Yeah, it has.
And by, by the point that I had moved home, it had fizzled out.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
And since then?
Um, since then, I, I had a, another fling with a girl I had met in college.
Um, we reconnected.
We, I, I flew out to see her one time, you know, and we hung out like a weekend and extended weekend.
Um, nothing, you know, we, we saw a show, nothing, you know, I don't even, you know, we didn't even hold hands, nothing like that.
Um,
We continued communications and then she came out to my place for a couple of weeks.
We were going to go see a show.
Um, that fell through, but she still stayed in town with me.
And over that, I'm sorry, what fell through the show?
The show that we were going to see, it was, it was like a, uh, a weekend show.
Um, but we mean a show that plans for the whole weekend.
Yes.
It's a music, a music festival.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Like, okay.
Got it.
Um, and she, so she, I bought two tickets.
I like this festival and I like to invite people.
So I'll, I'll buy an extra ticket.
And you know, I, there's usually a friend or someone that, you know, okay, come along, you know?
Uh, and that, that was the situation I ended up, I guess, just giving context, I ended up adopting a dog that same week.
Um, thinking I could, you know, have my cousin come, uh,
Watch her, watch the dog while I was away.
Obviously, that didn't work.
You know, you can't have a new dog, you know, all this new environment and stuff.
So, didn't go to the show to help, you know, get the dog back into the house.
And throughout that weekend and the following week, this girl stayed at my house with me.
Sorry, your house being you and your parents?
Or were you alone at this point?
So so I guess that that yeah, that is important.
So I I was living with my parents Um, and this is my mom's house that we have lived in since I was little um I moved back in I stayed there for Maybe a year and so throughout all this time my stepdad has his own house.
Um So, uh after a little bit of staying there I was I put up the proposition like hey, why don't like if
If you like, you know, you, you both can move into a stepdad's house and I, you know, I can pay you rent to stay here.
Um, so that's, that's, they, they agreed, you know, and that's what we did.
So by maybe, you know, a year later, when this girl, by the time this girl had come to stay with me, the house was, it was by myself in this house.
And did you change anything to do with the house or was it basically like your parents' house and you just kind of lived there?
In other words, were you living in like Boomerville or did you do anything to make it sort of your own?
No, I would make it my own.
I've always had a tendency that even just my room, just to up and change it, you know, rearrange it.
But once I was renting the whole house, I, you know, would repaint walls.
Took over the landscaping, you know, I was planting stuff.
I was really into all that gardening and whatnot.
And I did, you know, I ended up painting wall murals.
You know, you go to Lowe's, they sell like discount paint.
So I'll just buy random paint.
So I definitely made it my own rearranging and such.
And so, and you still had you kissed or was this a friend or were you aiming to be a boyfriend or with this woman who came to stay with you?
It was, yeah, it was a
Originally a friend, but I was intending, you know, I liked her, you know, I was intending to make it serious.
Um, and we, I don't know that we specifically said, do you want to start dating?
And how long have you known this woman and spent time with this woman before you even talked about dating?
I knew her in person for a year because we lived in the same dorm floor our freshman year.
Isn't that how wild that is?
Yeah.
I mean the previous relationship you're sharing your girlfriend, your hypersexual girlfriend with other men and this one you don't even hold hands for a year.
Can you find something in the middle or is that you're just like a person of extremes that way?
It just seems kind of, kind of wild.
I, yeah.
Yeah, I guess so.
I mean, did you want to date her earlier or was this part of the, I don't know, don't want to get tied down thing?
No, I did.
I was, so I guess I was interested in her when we met, uh, but she was dating, she had a boyfriend in her hometown.
She was from out of state.
She had a boyfriend, so she was unavailable.
Um, so by this point she had broken up with her boyfriend and we had reconnected, you know, online.
I mean, we still kind of kept in touch and stuff, but we reconnected and then I, I set up going over there to see her.
Right.
Okay.
And, and, you know, and that, and that went so well that, you know, we continued, continued it.
Okay.
I guess it's kind of an extreme first date.
Got it.
Okay.
All right.
Uh, and, uh, so did you end up getting together with this woman?
Um, yeah, but after, after, you know, we, we had dated basically a couple of weeks and then I, I had, I don't know, I internally like freaked out, you know, I, cause I don't know what it was, you know, if it was still processing the previous relationship or what.
But I told, you know, I broke up with her just telling her as much, like, you know, I'm not ready for this.
Wait, you flirted with this woman for a year, kind of?
Yeah.
And then you finally get her to date you and you break up a couple of weeks later?
Yes.
Okay.
Alright.
I know.
No, I'm just, what the hell?
Yeah.
And was she interested in dating you before that?
Like who, who was, who was not dating whom over that year?
She, I mean, she was interested in, in, I, you kept this woman dangling for a year and then broke up with her a couple of weeks after dating her?
Well, we didn't really, you know, she lived in a different state and you know, we didn't, I don't, you know, I'm not, uh, not that wild.
Oh, so just pick her up the first day we started talking.
That's not what I said though.
I mean, this woman wanted to date you for a year, right?
I didn't know that.
Oh, come on.
I mean, you're not a kid, right?
You're not 14.
No.
No.
Like, okay.
So a young woman, uh, wants to, is, is hanging around you and likes you, right?
And she's of dating age and she's single, right?
I mean, I can't talk with people who play dumb.
Like I just, I can't do that.
I can't do, cause if you were that dumb, we wouldn't be able to have a conversation.
Like you wouldn't be able to tie your own shoes, right?
Yeah.
I mean, I guess I'm, I'm, I don't see, you know, I, I don't see the problem in talking to someone for,
a while before engaging, you know, into a relationship.
Is that where we want to have our discussions?
That you think I'm criticizing you for talking to someone?
Is that really where we're going to have our level of conversation?
Because that's kind of boring.
Oh, I'm sorry.
I don't know.
Do you think I'm criticizing you for talking to someone?
I'm talking to you!
Why would I be criticizing you for talking to someone?
You're just purposely reframing what I'm saying, right?
That's how I interpreted the last comment.
No, it's not.
No.
Do you really think... I talk to people for a living, right?
You know that, right?
Have you listened to these call-in shows before?
Yes.
Okay, so do you think I'm criticizing you for talking to someone?
No.
Do you think I'm criticizing you for talking to someone before you get engaged in a sexual relationship?
No, and that's why I'm confused.
Okay, so what is there?
You don't have to agree with it, but what do you think is my potential mildly negative statement?
It's not some big criticism, but what is my potentially mildly negative statement?
Even if you don't agree with it, what do you think it might be?
You made the comment that I kept her dangling for a year before I started to date her.
Right.
And then you responded with, I had no idea she was attracted to me.
Yeah.
Or she liked me in that way, right?
But if a woman, I mean, and that's why I said, like, I can't give you that lack of intelligence, right?
I mean, if she was young and single, right?
True, okay, no, I agree.
And she was wanting to hang around with you, and she wanted to talk with you, and she wanted to come and visit you, right?
So the idea that there's zero way to figure out if she has any romantic interest in you at all, I can't operate at that level of playing dumb.
No, okay, I'm sorry to recant my statement.
I agree.
I knew that she was attracted to me.
Yeah, you knew that she was attracted to you.
And listen, I'm not saying this makes you some big bad ogre.
She's got free will and she makes choices and all of that.
You know, let's not operate at the level of, I had no idea that this woman who wanted to come and visit me, who was young and single and really loved spending time with me, that she might, I had no idea that she might even remotely be interested in me from a romantic standpoint, right?
Like I just, I can't, I can't do that stuff, right?
Okay.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
I mean, it must've crossed your mind, right?
Right.
Oh yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So when I say you kept her dangling,
Do you have any idea why you didn't want to date her for the year?
Well, I mean, we were far apart.
I wasn't sure I wanted to do a long-distance relationship like that.
And did you tell her did you tell her that there was really no possibility of a romantic relationship?
Because she was so far apart No And You know, and I don't know that you know, we were talking for a whole year.
I'm just I'm just trying to give general a general time frame You know and and us talking was reconnecting and you know, it's a gradual build-up
Okay.
Do you think that a young single woman who wants to come and live with you for a couple of weeks is just coming as a friend?
No.
Well, I mean, by that point, I'm not, by that point, I'm not saying I didn't, you know, at that point I was intending to date her.
That was kind of... You were, sorry, you were intending to date her?
Yeah.
Okay.
Like that, that was...
Partially the idea of this whole trip and this whole music festival was to kind of initiate that.
Right.
But let me ask you this, I mean, so she comes to visit you and the barrier before, and I'm not critical, I'm just curious, so the barrier was distance, but how was that solved when you dated her?
It wasn't.
So that wasn't a big issue.
It wasn't a big enough issue to keep you out of the relationship.
Do I have that right?
Right.
I was willing to try that.
Sorry, again I'm confused.
Because I thought you said earlier that you didn't want to date her because the distance was too great.
And then you're willing to date her even though the distance hasn't been solved.
Yeah.
I mean...
You can, I don't know, I got over myself, I guess.
Okay.
So the distance wasn't a deal breaker?
Right.
Right.
I mean, if I say I'm never going to work for $40,000 a year, and then I take a job at $40,000 a year, my former statement is just not correct.
Now, of course, things could have changed and all of that, right?
But... Well, when you're, you know, say you're not making any money for a year, $40,000 doesn't sound so bad.
Well, and I guess if you had no other romantic prospects, then you're willing to take this one, right?
Correct.
Okay.
So it, it wasn't primarily the distance.
It was, um, you know, could it, can I get someone closer?
You couldn't get someone closer.
So you went with her.
Did she know when she was coming to visit you that this was romantic in nature?
Um, I don't think I, I don't know it.
I never explicitly said anything like that.
You think that a woman who's coming to visit you and I assume stay with you, is that right?
Yeah.
I mean, I'm just sorry, I'm just having trouble understanding this.
Okay, so let's say that you have a wife, right?
Your wife.
And you have to go on some big business trip to the Far East for two weeks, right?
And your wife says, A young attractive single man I met online is coming to sleep under our roof for two weeks while you're away.
How would you feel?
I'd be highly suspicious.
But why?
Well, there's a lot of implications with that.
Right.
So when a woman comes to stay with you and live under your roof for a couple of weeks, that I assume you've been somewhat half flirting with to some degree over the last 10, 12 months or whatever, right?
And then I say, did she know that there could be anything romantic about it?
And you said, I don't know.
But then you say, well, if my wife said I'm having a young, attractive single man I met online coming to stay with me for a couple of weeks while you're away, you'd say, oh no, that's highly suspect because I mean, right?
Yeah.
I'm trying to square these circles.
It's, I can, I can assume as much with like with the context that you just brought up, but she didn't explicitly tell me, Hey, I think this situation has sexual intent or romantic intent.
So I can't say, like, I know what she was thinking.
Did you invite her over with the idea of potential romantic intent?
Yes.
So there was romantic intent for you.
She's gonna come and stay, and you don't know if there's... I mean, you don't know for sure if there was any romantic intent for her, but you would assume that, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And so, did she come and... did I remember this rightly?
She came to visit you twice, is that right?
Uh, once.
I went to visit her once.
Ah, okay.
And how long into your conversation was that?
Um, I don't, I don't know.
Um, that, I mean, that was maybe the nine or 10 month mark.
Cause it was a couple of months after that, that she flew out to me.
So it was like nine or 10 months that you went to visit her, but there was no, nothing romantic that happened there.
Is that right?
Right.
We, I mean, we went to a show.
Um, I, I stayed at her house.
I slept on her couch.
Um, you know, and then, and then maybe there's slight flirtations and stuff, but, uh, nothing, nothing really happened.
And why, and was this again out of concern for the distance?
No, I mean, to be honest, I'm, I'm pretty, a pretty shy person.
Um, growing up, I've, I've tried to work on that and make that better.
So, you know, and, and like I said before, I'm not like a, I'm not a ladies man.
So I'm, I'm not, you know, each of these experiences I'm, I'm learning from and trying to do better the next time.
No.
Okay.
So, um, uh, did you ever talk to her and say what is happening with our relationship or no, I'm interested in you romantically, but.
I mean, just man-to-man, it just feels odd that you go visit some girl you've been flirting with for nine months, and you just sleep on her couch, and you don't say anything, or ask any questions, or... Does that seem a bit odd?
Oh, yeah.
I won't deny that.
Okay.
I just wanted to make sure, you know, maybe there's been some big value shift, you know, we've obviously, we've got some separation in age, but... So, sorry, go ahead.
No, like, there's definitely opportunities for me to make a move, you know, and all that.
So why can't you?
Make a move, maybe, one way of putting it, but just have an honest conversation.
What's so hard about that?
And I don't mean that in some sort of, like, what the hell's so hard?
What's the matter with you?
I'm just genuinely curious, like, why is that so hard for you to say, you know, what's the status of our relationship?
I'm interested in something romantic, or I'm attracted to you, or like, what's wrong with... What is so difficult about just that kind of direct communication?
Right, no, I understand.
And I guess to maybe, I guess it's not quite jumping ahead, but like in my most recent interaction with the girl that I had interest in, I did do that.
You know, we had started talking, it came up that she had a boyfriend, but you know, she was still kind of interacting with me in a way that I thought like, okay, she's giving me interest.
So I was upfront with her and I said like, Hey, you know, seems like
You're interested in me, I'm interested in you, but you said you have a boyfriend, what's the story?
What's going on here?
She said she's fully committed, sorry for any mixed signals, and we moved on from that.
Was there something, other than the distance thing, I appreciate that update, was there something about this woman that you found unattractive outside of the distance?
Yeah.
Really talking with her there, you know There was I I eventually would like to Have a family, you know have children And that was one thing she specifically said, you know, I don't see myself as a mother.
I don't like children Um, so that was a big point Um And there there is just different personality things, um, she was I get to I don't know how you would she was very
Into into weird, just for the sake of being weird, like just into chaos, just because chaos is cool kind of thing.
You know, she wasn't going around, um, disrupting things or whatever, but she, I don't, I don't know if that, I don't know if that makes sense.
I, I'm trying to, it was like, it's like a personality type where I'm trying to word it.
She.
Maybe I shouldn't have brought it up because I don't know how to fully explain it.
No, that's fine.
I mean, it's a relationship that didn't work out.
So you dated her for a couple of weeks and then you broke up with her.
And was this mostly around the kid stuff?
Yeah.
Okay.
And I guess you learned your lesson that avoiding communication can waste a year of your life, right?
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
All right.
So then what's happened since then?
Um, well, pretty soon after that was, um,
I guess pretty soon after that, I think the next year was COVID.
So that, you know, that all happened.
I, um, shifted, you know, the job I had, you know, it's kind of a detour, but the job I had shut down.
So I ended up getting another job for the, for the time, got back to that job and eventually was offered a job in, um, a state out West.
And I took that, and this is within the course of another year and a half.
So then I decided to move out west and take another job there.
And I haven't had any kind of relationship since then, really.
The town I moved out to was pretty desolate.
It was a resort town in the mountains.
So there, I don't know.
You can see the dating pool was pretty slim out there.
So that was kind of another reason for coming back here.
I live within a major city area, so there's more people, more chances to meet somebody.
That's kind of where I'm at now with the dating scene.
Okay, got it, got it.
So there's the longest, I wouldn't really count the polyamorous one, the longest successful relationship that you've had?
Or just the longest relationship?
Yeah.
The longest.
Yeah.
Longest relationship I've had.
Is what?
The, that, that polyamorous one.
Yeah.
But that was polyamorous.
So you can't really count that.
And so I said, not counting that one.
Plus it was, you said it was on again, off again, like continual, the longest consistent continual relationship.
Would probably be my, my, my first girlfriend in high school.
We dated to.
One or two years.
Sorry, was that one or two?
What do you mean?
I'm trying to recall.
We started dating... But that's like 15 years ago, isn't it?
Yeah.
So why do you think you haven't really had a successful relationship in almost 15 years?
A lot of times I've chalked it up to, you know, being a shy person and not, not being, you know, putting myself out there as much.
No, but shyness is something, shyness is not like cerebral palsy or something, right?
I mean, shyness is something you can work on if it's important enough, you know, so it's not, it's not that.
Why, why do you think?
I, I've wondered sometimes it, so growing up,
Seeing how my parents were, um, I always had a, I wanted marriage to be a, um, sorry, my voice is starting to break.
Um, I was wanting marriage to be like a big deal, like to me, you know, wow.
Um, excuse me.
I want it to be a big deal.
Don't excuse yourself for being emotional about very important things.
That's a good thing.
That's a good sign.
Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
Um,
No, thank you.
So I guess I always put a lot of weight into that.
But I've also always had this thing in the back of my mind of kind of afraid to reenact being like my father.
Because he, I don't know, he never really had a successful relationship.
Okay, so let me ask you this.
Did your father have more successful relationships than you've had?
I mean, he got married, right?
Yeah.
He had a kid.
Yeah, so he's had three kids.
Okay, so he's become a father, and I'm obviously not a great father, but, you know, he got married and he had kids, and he's had other relationships and so on, right?
Is he in a relationship right now?
Yes, he's got a girlfriend right now.
And how long have they been going out?
Oh, maybe the better part of a year.
And what's his longest relationship?
I know it's a little tough to know, but that you know of.
The longest that I know of is with the woman, my stepmom, ex-stepmom, I don't know.
He married a woman after my mother and had a child with her.
And they were together, gosh, I don't know how long.
Well, they got divorced when my sister was
Kind of young, five, maybe like seven.
So they were together for about that long.
You know, they dated a bit.
Well, no, they dated for a couple of years before getting married.
Okay.
And so, I mean, in many ways, obviously not sustained, but your father's been more successful in his relationships than you have been, right?
Yes.
So what's the worst case scenario for you with regards to your relationship, uh, your relationships and your father and his impact on you?
What, what's the, what's the fear there, or what's maybe the, the paralysis?
I launched, I've like, I guess an example, the, when the step-mom with the second marriage, when that ended,
He was already seeing another woman.
Um, and he had even brought like me and my sister, like to, like to putt, putt with her.
Um, I guess, I don't know, I guess to introduce us or something, but that was, you know, a couple of months before they had gotten a divorce.
Okay.
And, and, and I guess that about that, I don't,
I don't know.
I didn't really take it a certain way at the time, but when they did get a divorce, I don't know.
I wasn't as concerned about it for me because I didn't have a strong relationship with my stepmother, but I was concerned about how my sister would take it all.
I haven't talked to her about it.
I don't know.
I guess maybe I was worried.
I, I felt bad for my sister.
Okay.
Um, and then I guess just to, to, to finish off my dad's relationships, you know, he, so he ended up dating that, that new girlfriend for a couple of years, they lived together and then they broke up.
He ended up moving into a friend's house, uh, started talking to, excuse me, an old friend of his.
Yeah.
An old friend of his, I think from high school or something.
And she lived out West.
They started seeing each other flying back and forth.
And eventually he decided to move out West to live with her.
Right.
Okay.
All right.
Got it.
So worst case scenario is what?
I guess multiple marriages and multiple children.
All right.
And is that better?
I mean, just is that, that must be worse than what you're doing, right?
Cause you're choosing this over that.
And I'm not saying these are the only two options, but maybe in your head to some degree.
I guess in my head, I'm trying to find a steady relationship that I can turn into a steady marriage and build a family from that.
Are you?
I don't know.
I'm not afraid of doing that or anything.
I feel like I can accomplish that.
You've been working on this project since you were in your mid-teens, to some degree or another, right?
Just to have some sort of steady relationship, right?
So, 15 years with no success, right?
Right.
And you're not close?
No.
So, I mean, if I said I want to be an actor, and I've never gotten hired for anything or kept a job, and after 15 years I'm not even going on auditions, what would you say to me?
Try harder.
You'd say try harder?
Yeah.
If you say you want to be an actor and you're not trying,
No, but if I were to say to you that my main goal for the last 15 years has been to be an actor, and yet... Got it.
Right.
Would you believe me?
No.
Right.
Because, I mean, if you really want to be an actor, I mean, there's tons of people who are actors.
They're all over the place on TV.
There are tons of people who are actors, and what they do is they...
You know, they, they study accents.
They, they study monologues.
They go on endless auditions.
They do amateur theater.
They, you know, build their right.
Yeah.
You know, right now that doesn't mean that they'll succeed, but they're certainly trying.
Right.
Right.
See a man's priorities are measured by his actions.
And it's true for women too, but we're just talking man to man here.
Right.
So a man's priorities are measured by his actions.
Is that fair?
Yes.
Because people can say whatever they want.
If I say I'm desperate to lose weight, but I keep eating more and more and more and I don't exercise, then clearly I'm not particularly desperate to lose weight.
Because losing weight isn't actually that complicated, right?
I mean, it's not easy sometimes, but it's, you know, eat less, exercise more!
It's not that complicated, right?
Right.
So I'm trying to figure out
Certainly, if you say, you know, getting married and having kids is the goal, then the severely emotionally disturbed polyamorous girl is not that, right?
Right.
And if you say, well, my goal is to get married and have a family, and you kind of half flirt and visit with a girl for a year before even asking if she wants to have a family, I don't mean to laugh, but you understand why this is a challenge, right?
Right.
And you only, after you've flirted and traveled off and on for like a year, and you start dating her, only then do you talk anything to her about whether she even wants to have children, or be a wife.
Does that make sense?
Right.
So I guess that's my question is, that's not your goal.
It can't be.
I mean, if I say my goal is to learn guitar, and...
I never pick up guitar.
And then I ended up, you know, I sign up for a year's worth of lessons from a music teacher.
And then only after a year, you know, of going to him and he's like, man, he just keeps teaching me piano.
And it's like, did you ever ask him if he teaches guitar?
No.
Well, when I finally did ask him, he's like, no, I don't teach guitar.
I don't, right.
I don't like then me wanting to learn guitar would be like, not true.
Right.
Right.
And again, it's not critical, right?
Where we learn about our lives is through the empiricism of our actions, right?
Yeah.
So, what is it that you're trying to achieve in what it is that you're actually doing?
What is your goal?
The empirical goal, not your conscious goal or your stated goal, but the empirical goal.
Does that make sense?
I... Maybe?
Do you mean... What am I trying to do with myself?
Well, everybody has goals, right?
Right.
So, you know, one example would be, uh, just so it's a little less abstract.
I know it's a little too abstract.
Sorry.
That was, that's my bad.
So one example, if, if a woman says, I just, I want a great boyfriend, this, that, and the other, and she's, she's, he's complaining about not having a great boyfriend, but she also, you know, doesn't take care of her personal hygiene and is a hundred pounds overweight.
Yeah.
Right.
Then her secret goal is to avoid having a boyfriend.
Like maybe she's, I don't know, maybe she was sexually abused as a child and she needs to avoid intimacy because it's incredibly painful for her or something like that.
So there's the stated stuff and then there's the empirical stuff, right?
And the empirical stuff is the real stuff.
Right.
So I, um, yeah, so then I guess I've here recently, I've been trying to self-empower
I mean, you've been an adult for 12 years, right?
It sounds like your career's going relatively well, is that right?
Yeah.
Oh, good for you, good for you.
So, you've been an adult for 12 years, and you say, like, I want to get married and have a family, but you're pursuing actions in the complete opposite of that, right?
Polyamory girl, and girl with boyfriend, and girl with, like, you know, the moment a woman says, she's flirting with you, as this woman was, and she says, I have a boyfriend, you stop seeing her.
I mean, the idea of like, well, gee, really, what's going on here?
Like, no, you have some values, some standards yourself, right?
You don't date a woman who's cheating on her boyfriend, even if it's just flirtatious cheating?
Well, and I was, I, I didn't, I wasn't going to, you know, when it first came up, I didn't, you know, that was it.
She continued to talk to me and that it was pretty shortly after that.
I brought it up like, Hey, like what's, what's going on.
No, I remember exactly what you said, but that's a passive thing.
Right.
But you say, um, go deal with your boyfriend and you block her.
Okay.
Am I wrong?
As opposed to, okay, so if you just said, what's going on?
And she said, you know, I, I'm really on the verge of breaking up with my boyfriend.
You're just such a way better guy.
I'd love to get together with you.
I need to obviously to take some counseling or to have a transition or something like what is the, what's going on?
An opening?
No.
Sounds like it.
It's an invitation to explain, right?
Yeah.
Again, it's not a criticism, I'm just... If you're asking someone to explain, it means you're willing to accept an explanation, right?
Or there's a potential explanation.
Yeah.
So you've got three girlfriends, or I guess the last one's not quite a girlfriend, but you've got three whatevers that can't really lead to marriage and children, right?
Right.
So what is your secret goal?
And going to the gym now and so on, if you don't know your past secret goals, you can't
You can't fix the current discrepancy between what you say you want and what you're actually doing.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
What have you been doing for the last 12 years that you've managed to avoid a wife and family so efficiently?
I guess it hasn't been my primary goal.
Please stop being so much work!
You've done the opposite.
So saying it's not my primary goal, does that mean it's your secondary goal?
That means you suck at your secondary goal.
If you're doing the opposite, it's not, well, I'm not doing it quite as well.
Like if I say go north and you head south and you say, well, I guess my primary goal is not exactly to head north.
And it's like, you're heading south!
That's right.
So I mean this with affection, but please stop being so much work and please stop melee mouthing me.
Cause you know, I'm 57 years old.
I don't have much time left on the planet.
Sorry.
I, you know, you watch these videos and you always...
Never want to be that person.
I know.
I sympathize.
I sympathize.
And it's sad to me, of course, that these conversations are not more common in society.
So I understand and I sympathize and I'm not mad at you or anything.
I'm just, I just can't do too much more of this fogging stuff.
It's just kind of, it's so obvious.
Right.
Okay.
No, it's fine.
It's fine.
So, but, but what it does is it tells me that you're surrounded by people who listen to this nonsense.
I don't mean that you're nonsense.
I just mean this fogging stuff.
Right.
Who should have been having these conversations with you?
My friends and my family.
Well, my parents.
Well, your parents, right?
Yeah.
So, who is it in your life who, like, who's trained you to put out these ridiculous excuses and these avoidances and this fog and this, right?
So, what's going on in your relationships, your primary relationships?
Let's talk in particular with your... It sounds like you're closer to your stepdad than your dad, is that right?
Um... I don't know.
Yes, yes and no.
Okay, that's fine.
Sorry, I don't want to get overly complicated with that stuff, so we'll just say that they're equal.
Okay, so you have your mother and two fathers, and have they had direct conversations with you about the fact that you're 30 and further away from getting married and having children than you were when you were 18.
Now, do you know why you're further away?
No, I could guess, but no.
Okay, so if you're an employee, right, and you're 18 years old and you have almost no track record of working, and you go for a job, your resume's pretty thin, which means you get judged on who you are in the interview, right?
Now, if you're 30, and you have 12 years of work experience, and it mostly involves being unemployed, being in dead-end jobs, or getting fired, or saying, oh no, I worked for some place for a year for free, and then I finally asked them what the salary was, and it turns out I was, they didn't even want to pay me, so, like, you then have a 12-year track record of pretty terrible work decisions, right?
Yeah.
So, right now, if you're looking for a woman who's 30, let's say... Now, she's single too, so I get all of that, but maybe she was in a long-term relationship and the guy got eaten by a shark, you know?
Something that's really not her fault, right?
So, a woman looks at you, at 30...
Right.
At 18, you could say, well, it was a high school romance and we moved apart or something like that.
So, but a woman looks at you at 30 and she sees, okay, so he hasn't dated for long periods of time.
He dated a polyamorous girl.
I mean how do you look?
Pretty bad.
Yeah.
And I'm not trying to make you feel bad.
I'm really not.
I'm just saying that when you say, well, it hasn't been my primary goal, you're building a moat around yourself.
You're building a big moat around yourself by accumulating experiences that bar you from having much of a chance with a high-quality woman.
Does this make sense?
Yeah.
You haven't dated, you've self-sabotaged.
Now, when I say self-sabotaged, I mean that the people around you have allowed your lust to cause you to sin against your future.
Did your mother or either of your fathers know that the girl you were dating was into polyamory?
Yeah, I had talked to my mother about it.
At some point while it was going on.
Okay, so you talked to your mother about, my girlfriend has talked me into polyamory, right?
Yeah.
And what did your mother say?
She didn't approve.
You know, she said I shouldn't, I shouldn't do that.
Okay.
And did you talk to any of the men in your, your two fathers?
No.
Why not?
I guess my primary relationship has always been with my mother.
Well, it's not that primary relationship if you don't take any advice from her in these essential areas.
Yeah.
Why did she say it was bad?
What was her argument?
I couldn't recall the exact conversation.
I think she had told me it's just not good for me, not healthy for me.
She told me that she thinks I should break up, not be a part of that.
I guess that's a repeat to also include in that my first
I'm sorry, but why was that not good?
Uh, I mean, did you love her?
I mean, the girlfriend.
Um, I would say it was, what do they call it?
Like puppy love.
You know, it's, I don't know that it, it was, I don't think that was a good relationship either, but, and plus that, so that whole, the whole moving in thing was, so she had,
A step-mom that was kind of crazy.
Um, and there, I don't know, there was weird stuff where I, you know, supposedly she wasn't allowed to see her step that's her knows her biological mom.
Um, she wasn't allowed to see her because of some, I don't know, something that happened in the past.
They, her parents got a divorce, but she would still, she was like, Oh, I'm going to see my mother this weekend.
She's going to buy me some stuff.
Um, and that mother, you know, she was,
Had money.
I don't know if it was her own or her husband's.
She was going to buy the house for us.
And it was just that, like, that was not a good situation to be in.
Okay.
And how much did your mother know about all of this when you started dating your high school girlfriend?
I would say my mother knew
Most of it, like while it was happening, maybe not like the day I found out, but maybe soon afterwards.
We had talked about most, most of those things.
And did she say right away, this is not a good situation or how long did that take?
Yeah.
I mean, she was like, Oh, that's not good.
Right, but you didn't listen to her then either, right?
Well, not at first.
I mean, I did at the point where... You said you dated for a year or two!
Please, God Almighty!
Right.
Let's stop wasting time!
You dated her for a year or two!
Your mother said at the beginning, don't date her!
I mean, that instance, you know, with the whole... No, I didn't listen to her at first, but like... No, no, that's not at first when you date someone in your teens for a year or two!
I mean, in other words, you didn't break up with the girl because you listened to your mother.
You broke up with the girl because of other reasons, right?
Right.
Okay.
So, you didn't listen to her.
You didn't date the woman when your mother said, don't date the girl, and you didn't break up with her because your mother said something, because your mother had already said something at the beginning, right?
Right.
So, you didn't listen to her.
Can we, again, I'm just trying to beg you to have a conversation.
I'm sorry, I guess I... I'm sorry.
No, like, you go to this fog place!
Well, not at first, it's like, it's one to two years!
So, you have this place you go where you kinda disintegrate.
Or, like, you're trying to disintegrate the other person, right?
Which means you don't take clear feedback.
And this is probably from yourself.
Like you don't have this habit with me.
Like we're just starting to talk, right?
We just meeting for the first time.
So you have this habit with yourself, right?
Yeah.
Is that right?
Oh yeah.
My self-dialogue's a lot like this.
Well this, well complicated, well that, well the other, right?
Yeah.
There's so many different factors at play and it's all kind of massive and murky and machinery and, right?
Is that right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, that's what happens when you don't live off principles and empiricism.
And I'm not saying you don't at all, right?
You're successful in your career, so you have empiricism and principles there, right?
I mean, I assume that when you're at work and somebody asks you to do something, you don't give these kinds of nonsense non-answers, right?
Right.
Is that right?
Oh, right.
Right.
So you're decisive and you're empirical and you're principled at work, right?
Yeah.
And that's what's working in your life.
Do I understand this correctly?
Yes, yeah.
But then you're not principled and not decisive and not empirical in your love life.
And that's what's not working, right?
Right.
Okay, good.
So we understand that, right?
So as best as you can, don't fog me.
Okay.
Okay.
Right.
Cause you have this, like, if, if, if I say something that's blindingly obvious, my mother told me not to date this woman.
I dated her for another year or two and then broke up with her for reasons unrelated to what my mother said.
Right.
Right.
So that's obvious.
Right.
So when I say, if you say my mother told me not to date her, I went ahead and dated her anyway.
And I say, so you didn't listen to your mother.
That's obvious, isn't it?
Yeah.
Right, like, it's, yeah, okay, yeah.
If I say, uh, don't join the Merchant Marines, and you go and join the Merchant Marines, and then quit two years later because you got injured, and someone says, well, I guess you didn't listen to staff, and it's like, well, I kinda did, because I did eventually quit the Merchant Marines, it's like, but not because of what I said!
Right, right.
That's all I'm begging you for here.
Okay.
So who lets you get away with this stuff?
And, and again, I'm not saying you're doing anything bad or sinister or anything like that, but who, who just nods when you go to Fogland?
Who just like, yep, that's yeah.
Okay.
Um, I don't know everybody.
Cause no one's really, no one really brings it up like you do.
Okay.
So, when you were dating the polyamory girl, and your mother said, don't do it, it's gross, it's weird, it's bad, it's unhealthy, did she follow up?
Did she say, what's happening with the polyamory girl?
Are you still doing it?
Or like, or was it like a one and done conversation?
Um, it wasn't one and done.
I mean, the, the kind of like,
She would check in on what's going on, but that was about it.
I guess it was kind of a one and done as far as the depth of what was going on.
And did you keep her updated and say, now the polyamory girl, where I'm supposed to be the primary boyfriend, now she spends the high quality time, which is the weekends, with the other guy?
No.
So why wouldn't you... I'm trying to figure out how close you are to your mom, because this is the fundamental question, right?
Right.
I mean, you don't listen to her advice.
You don't keep her updated on essential developments in your relationships, right?
And she doesn't call you out on the fog stuff, right?
Yeah.
So I'm just trying to figure out how... are you close?
Okay, so you were hidden from her because she was asking you about the Polly Amherst relationship, and you hid from her that you'd been delegated to second tier, right?
Because, I mean, Weekend is top tier, right?
Oh yeah.
So you lied to her and you hid things from her in something which you had already involved her in, right?
Yeah.
So why do you lie to your mother and hide things from her?
And I know this sounds like some big critical thing.
Again, it's just general curiosity.
No, I mean, I would agree.
I do that, and I... I don't know if you'll like this answer, but I don't know.
Well, you do.
You do know, obviously.
You know, we can go through the ritual if you want, and I know you know it's coming, so I'm aware of that.
But okay, so why do you lie to your mother and withhold things from her after involving her in this situation?
I guess maybe it's like a form of embarrassment, like I'm embarrassed to be in that situation.
And maybe I know that sometimes I will kind of assume
I know what she's going to say, or I know, you know, a lot of times I don't talk to my stepdad because I kind of like, I know what he's going to say.
Well, that's fine.
I mean, you also know to some degree what I'm going to say, but we're still talking, right?
So it's not that.
Knowing what someone is going to say is not it, in particular.
I mean, if you know what someone's going to say and you don't respect what they have to say, then it wouldn't be a productive conversation, if I understand this correctly.
Yeah.
And when did this habit start, if you remember, with your mother?
Um.
Maybe.
It was probably around, you know, around high school, I was doing, I was doing bad things, but just doing things I didn't bring up with my mother.
Well, no, I, so I, so when growing up, my mother was pretty, I guess, strict, you know, as far as, um, wanted, wanted a lot of, a lot of communication, you know, like around that age, I was going to hang out with friends a lot.
And she was the type of mother to like, okay, you know, text me when you're leaving, text me when you get there, text me this and that.
Um, you know, and at the time,
I've, you know, it was, I guess it was rebellious.
Um, cause I would have friends who, you know, he was, he was the third child.
So his parents were more lenient on him, you know, Hey, I'm going out.
Okay.
See you tomorrow.
Kind of thing.
So I guess I was jealous.
Uh, sorry.
Okay.
So it was in your mid teens that you started lying to your mom, right?
Yeah.
And before that you generally told her the truth.
No, actually, I, you know, thinking about it in preschool, I was pretty troublesome.
I, um, would like what one time, you know, like one time I stole a thing from a kid, you know, I, it was like a little knickknack.
I didn't, I got in trouble for it.
Um, there I would,
I think I got in trouble for copying homework.
I got in trouble, like one time, I know that's not that major, but, um, the, I got in trouble for like writing on the walls that I took a dollar to like hit a kid once.
Um, so I, I, I don't know.
I did a lot of things that, that particular age.
Um, and I, I didn't do it after that.
Well, so that, you could say that's misbehavior, but is that the same as lying to your mom?
Did you lie to your mom about these things?
No, she would be informed by the school, wouldn't she?
Right.
But, you know, if, just to kind of generalize it, like if she would ask me, like, hey, did you do this?
I'd be like, you know, trying to hide from it, I would say no.
Okay, so why do you think you lied to her?
And again, listen, I mean, I understand that's a general human thing and kids do that a lot, so again, this is not some big terrible thing, but why do you think you lied to her about these things?
Early on, in kindergarten specifically, when I got in trouble, I would get spanked and get the belt.
I'm sorry, who would give you the belt?
My mom.
Oh, your mom would beat you with the belt?
Yeah.
Okay, and how often would that happen?
About as often as, you know, I got in trouble.
It wasn't every time, but, you know, if it was... Okay, so the next question, obviously, is how often did you get in trouble?
It's hard for me to recall, but.
Well, I mean, every year, every month, every six months, every week.
Weekly, weekly, bi-weekly.
I mean, it was.
Sorry, bi-weekly means once a week or every two weeks?
Like once a week or every two, once every two weeks.
Okay.
So you might get what, 30 to 35 beatings with a belt as a little boy every year?
Um,
Yeah, and this was only for a year or two, and those stopped.
Do you know why?
No.
My thought is that she, for lack of a better term, knew better or learned better.
From from then, we went to other types of like, you know, I was around that time I started to get an allowance.
So my my punishments were more allowance based, you know, like, here's a popsicle per dollar, you get you get in trouble, you lose a popsicle, or you do something good, you get in, you get a popsicle, that kind of thing.
Okay, so it wasn't verbal aggression, it was
Carrots and sticks.
Oh no, actually not even sticks.
Carrots or the withdrawal of carrots, so to speak, right?
Is that, is that right?
So she wasn't like verbally aggressive or putting you down in that way?
No.
Um.
There, there, there would be sometimes where she would yell and get, and get mad.
Um.
Um.
I wonder if maybe sometimes maybe she was stressed from work or something else and, you know, maybe stressed from her own relationship.
Oh, so we're going to excuses here?
No.
Because it doesn't sound like she gave you a lot of excuses when you were a child.
Right.
Did she say, oh, well, you didn't do well on the test, but, you know.
Your father left, or you're stressed for this or that or the other, or you didn't get as much sleep, or... Right?
Did she give you excuses?
Right.
No.
Okay, so if you don't give excuses, you don't get excuses, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so what would she say when she was angry and yelling?
Um... Things like, um... Gosh, I don't...
I haven't thought about this in a while.
I guess I, I don't know, I can't believe you've done that.
She wouldn't, I mean, there would be times she would use curse words, but it wasn't, it wasn't berating me.
So what's an example?
So like I guess like one one example would be she like she would yell at me on the way home Like shouldn't be doing I can't believe we did that, you know, um, that's that's wrong behavior um And then we'd go home once we get home there there was one time Sorry, i'm trying to refrain from drifting off there was one time She yelled at me.
She's like i'm so i'm so mad I
Like, I can't even look at you, like, just go, go into your room.
Okay, but none of these, uh, sorry, you'd mentioned curse words, and that's sort of what I was curious about.
Okay, okay, uh, well, no, the curse word, because the curse words weren't... I'm gonna say that they weren't directed at me, it was more so like, I can't fucking believe this, or I, you know, I can't do this shit kind of thing.
Okay, but she wasn't, like, you're stupid, you're, uh, you're mad, you're selfish, you're...
No, nothing like that.
And what about your father and stepfather?
My father never really corrected me on anything.
There was one time, he's not very confrontational, there was one time he got
Upset.
I don't, I don't know what he was upset about, but I just remember one time that he was, he seemed upset about something and he was kind of short with me about something, but it was like.
Sorry, but you say your father didn't correct you.
I mean, all children need correcting, right?
Yeah.
I mean, to correct a child is, is actually to parent the child.
Right.
And I guess, so I would, I would be with at my father's on the, on the weekend.
Um, and that was it, you know, going to dad's house was kind of a vacation.
It was a break from, from mom's house.
Yeah, that's Fog Land again.
So I'm asking you what your father, did your father direct you on anything?
Don't eat this, eat that.
Uh, not too much screen time.
Uh, you need to get some more exercise.
Uh, uh, like, uh, how are things going at school?
What's going on with friends?
Are you in, what courses do you like?
Uh, can I help you with anything?
Uh, did he teach you stuff?
Wisdom, knowledge, how to interact, how to like anything?
I, I mean, we would, we would talk.
About, you know, you're like, Hey, how, like how school doing or what it like, what are you doing?
But he.
No, it wasn't.
No.
I mean, he never really.
I'm trying to think like, like Sam pretty much the majority of my upbringing is through my mother, you know, all the, but what about your stepdad?
He taught me stuff.
And I don't mean practical things like fishing or whatever, right?
But moral lessons or life lessons or communication lessons or lessons on virtue or integrity or what?
My stepdad definitely has taught me more of those things than my actual dad.
He would tell me, teach me things of...
How to be a man kind of things, how to, um, yeah, stuff like that.
But again, it was, I was, I was mom's kid and, you know, like all of the, all of the correcting and like parenting was, was through mom.
That's how that relationship, that's how that was set.
Sorry.
He taught you how to be a man.
But parenting was through your, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to, maybe I missed something.
Right.
No.
And, but I, well, I guess that's, that's the, I guess that's to say, like, that's the most that I've got was what he, I got from him.
And what was his, what were his lessons about how to be a man?
Your stepfather's, I guess your dad was just, I don't know, it's like being raised by a toddler or something, but, uh, your stepdad, what were his lessons?
Well, of course, different practical things, but as far as the abstracts, he definitely helped me get out of my shell.
He was tougher on me.
Um in the sense to because he could see that I was a shy kid and whatnot so he He worked on me to break to like break me on my out of my shell and and sorry, I know that's fake.
Um So he taught me Being more Um Gosh i'm
Well, it's good that you're noticing when you go to Fargland.
That's a big step up.
Yeah.
Sorry.
I don't know how I avoid that.
No, no.
What did your stepfather teach you about being a man?
And I'm not skeptical.
I just want to know.
I mean, one definition of manhood would be you don't date a woman who cucks you with another guy.
Yeah.
So I'm trying to, I'm trying to figure out what, and you said, well, I'm still shy and right.
So I'm trying to figure out what you learned that had you do the things that you do.
Either he didn't teach you or he taught, or you didn't listen or he taught you the entirely wrong things.
I mean, one of the least manly things.
To do is to share the woman you really care about with some other guy, some other stud who's gonna screw her brains out on the weekends, right?
While you just drum your fingers and wait for Monday to roll around, right?
So, if this is you with the instruction from your stepfather on how to be a man, I'm, again, a little baffled.
I never told him about that, any of that.
He definitely didn't think that was... Do you think it matters that you told him?
No.
If you'd learned how to be a man, you wouldn't have done polyamory second-tier cuck!
Yeah.
Whether you told him or not is irrelevant!
Am I wrong?
No.
And he taught you how to be, what, direct and stern and... Then why are you still so indirect?
And I'm not criticizing you, I'm just...
If somebody says, this guy taught me how to oar, and you're putting the wrong end in the water, I have questions!
Yeah.
It's good news, because if you weren't taught this stuff, then it makes sense that you didn't do it.
If you were taught it, and you went ahead and did, like, if you were taught how to be a man, and then you got cucked by some guy on the weekends, that would be a bigger problem.
In my view.
Yeah.
Right.
So what are you, what are you feeling at the moment?
I feel like there's a lot I never learned.
Which is fantastic news.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
There's a lot to explain and... Sorry, go ahead.
There's more so that I realize I haven't learned.
I knew there were things I never learned, but I tried to figure that out on my own.
But, you know, and I felt like I recognized certain things, but talking, you know, I guess, you know, I didn't ever learn any of it.
And you said that there were times when you didn't lie to your mother, right?
Or lied less?
Because I remember you saying in your teens, right, you were doing a lot of stuff that was, quote, bad, and you lied to your mother about it.
And then you said also when you were younger, but were there times where you lied less?
Um, yeah, or just, I mean, I, I wasn't, I wasn't doing bad things.
It, it was just like, if, if, you know, I was at a friend's house and we went egging, you know, I didn't tell him, you know, I wasn't, you know, if I stayed at a friend's house, I wasn't supposed to go anywhere else.
But if we went somewhere else, like we went to the park or, or I did this thing and go egging, you know, I didn't tell her that.
Okay.
So, I mean, egging is pretty minor, right?
Yeah.
I mean, were there more important things that you didn't tell her the truth about?
No.
Okay.
Now, do you think that your mother knows when you're telling her the truth or does not know when you're lying?
I think she... I don't want to say that she doesn't know, but I think she trusts me.
She trusts that I would
Tell her the truth.
And is she right to do that?
No.
So she trusts you when she maybe shouldn't at times, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And does she trust you because she believes you're telling the truth or does she trust you because she doesn't know?
But that's a default position.
I think she trusts me because she trusts that I am doing the right thing.
Doing and telling, these are two separate categories.
Right.
So with regards to, does your mother trust you?
Because she believes that you're telling the truth to her, or because she just trusts you as a default and she doesn't know the difference, or notice the difference?
I think because she believes, because she believes what I'm saying.
Okay, so your mother is not particularly good at figuring out truth from falsehood, is that right?
Yeah.
In her son?
I would agree, yeah.
Okay, sorry, go ahead.
She can tell if I'm in a bad mood or something.
She can tell if something's wrong with me.
But she trusts that I will talk to her if I have an issue or if I'm going through something.
Okay.
Now, have you told your parents, all three of them, I guess, have you told your parents that you want to get married and have children?
Yeah.
And when did you first tell them that?
Um, well, it's, so it's been one of those things where it's kind of,
Assumed, you know, when you're going through life, that's a general life thing, but it was, I explicitly brought up, you know, definitely after college.
Okay.
So like for eight years, give or take you have been, you've had the explicit goal of getting married and having children that you told your parents about that.
And again, I know there could be some fog here and there, but it's been a while.
No, I, I, I would say from,
From the beginning, my mom had always talked to me as if, you know, being a good husband, you know, it was always this idea.
Okay.
So, so, and, and you, so she's wanted you to get married since you became an adult, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
And you have also expressed your desire to her to get married for eight or so years off and on.
Yes.
Yes.
So, what steps have your parents done to try and help you achieve the goal that you all want for you?
They've encouraged me to go out, you know, meet people.
They've suggested people that I go meet, you know, friends or family kind of thing.
When I talked to my mom about why different relationships didn't work she would agree that Like yes, you know you you want to marry and have kids that woman didn't so I agree that you should have broke up with her Um Right now she my they're they're helping me.
Um Look for a house, you know, they're giving me a place to stay where I can save up money to
Okay, so it's either your fault, or it's the woman's fault, or it's a lack of housing.
That's sort of what I'm getting as to why you're not, like, according to your parents, that's why you're not married?
No, I would say according to them, I just, I haven't met the right woman yet.
Okay.
I mean, I'm just, I'm kind of curious.
Do they have any self-criticism at all about how they raised you as to why maybe you're not married?
Anything?
I, I, I think my mom might have.
No, no, I don't want theories.
I know.
I don't want conjecture and theories.
Have they taken any ownership and said, well, you know, I did beat you.
Uh, that must've been pretty unpleasant.
And I, I stopped it because I was wrong, but I've never talked to you about it or, oh, I don't know.
Um, I married a guy who didn't give you any, uh, education on how to be a man.
Uh, I, I, I divorced the guy, uh, and you, you have really haven't had any training on masculinity.
I can't provide that as a woman.
And I didn't ensure.
That you got that from your father or from your stepfather?
I mean, is there anything that your parents have done that indicates any self-ownership for how they raised you and the problems that might have engendered in your goal of getting married?
No.
I think the closest would be just a side comment and a side given of like, well, I think of
Sometimes when talking to my, my dad about something like this, in relationship wise, he would say like, well, you know, I'm not really, I mean, not the best to give relationship advice.
So there's a little bit of.
So, but there's no.
No.
So if, if he knows he's not the best to give relationship advice, then shouldn't he make sure that you do have someone who gives you relationship advice?
You would think.
Like if a friend of mine says, I have this weird lump on my shoulder, and I say, listen, I'm not a doctor or a dermatologist, you gotta go to a dermatologist.
Or a doctor or something, right?
Yeah.
Right.
So, that's not really helping you.
Right.
So, do your parents say,
We have a lot to do with why you're not married, and let's talk about that.
No.
Why not?
I... I don't know.
Except you do, so we can play this game if you want, so why don't they take any responsibility, right?
Okay, let me ask you this.
Is it a parent's job to prepare a child for adult relationships?
Yes.
Right.
Have they done that?
Successfully prepared you for adult relationships?
No.
Okay.
It's not funny.
Right.
Right.
So they have not.
And they won't even acknowledge that they haven't.
That they failed.
Instead, they blame the woman, they blame real estate, or you, right?
Yeah.
So, and the worst thing is, in my view, you have inherited, which is perfectly understandable, and I say this with great sympathy, you have inherited an aversion to self-criticism, which is why you keep going to Fogland.
Now the reason that you have inherited an aversion to self-criticism is your parents, it doesn't seem like to me, have any capacity for self-criticism at all.
Because you take it all on yourself.
And what I see from the outside, and correct me if I'm wrong, what I see from the outside is we have an entire family structure that raised a child
and has as the goal of raising the child a successful adult relationship and this child has gone for 15 years without a successful adult relationship and no one's taking responsibility who raised you nobody's taking responsibility who advised you nobody's saying this goal this plan which is essential for your happiness is not being achieved we need to do everything possible to figure out why
No, they're putting their defensiveness above your happiness.
Right.
The reason that you're not married is not because you haven't met the right person, it's not because you didn't have your own house, it's not because the woman was just this, that, or the other.
The reason you're not married is you lack relationship skills, in my view.
And I say that with sympathy.
I mean, I don't speak Japanese.
I wasn't raised with Japanese.
Right.
But at least I know I don't speak Japanese.
And if I want to speak Japanese, I know what to do.
I don't just tell myself I can't, I do speak Japanese when I'm just speaking gobbledygook.
Right.
So do you know how to evaluate a potential partner?
Do you know how to be assertive in relationships?
Do you know how to both provide value and receive value?
You do in the business world because you're successful, right?
Right.
Same principles apply in the dating world.
Because at the age of 30, you know, you're still half mucking about with girls who have boyfriends.
Right.
And I say this with sympathy.
So, it's been 15 years.
Well, let's, you know, make it as an adult.
So, 12 years.
It's been 12 years.
So, you've got an entire family structure that should be devoted to helping you achieve that which brings the greatest happiness, which is love.
It hasn't been achieved and the people in charge of the project, and your parents are always in charge of the project.
Always.
You can be 70 and they can be 95.
They're still in charge of the project.
Yeah.
So the people in charge of the project have failed.
Now, I don't know if you've ever been in the business world where somebody's been in charge of a project that is repeatedly failing and screwing up in every conceivable dimension, and all they do is blame others.
Not in a professional sense, no.
Like school projects, group projects, but yeah.
But you can imagine that there would be such a person in the business world who, they have a job, and they keep failing at their job, but it's never their fault.
It's the economy, it's the customer, it's the supplier, it's the inflation, it's never, even though other people are succeeding in exactly the same environment, they blame every single one of their failures on something external, right?
Now, you know that person's never going to improve, right?
Right.
Now, sometimes to help our children, we need to submit to some pretty scalding self-criticism, right?
Yeah.
But that's, right?
That's the job, because what matters is what helps our children the most.
And if being self-critical helps our children the most, then that's what we do, right?
Because you're there to help your children.
And has anyone in your parents' circle
Surrendered themselves to self-criticism or said, you know, gee, I've really been thinking about why things aren't working out for you dating or romantically and I have some theories.
Here's the things I think I did wrong.
Here's the things that we haven't been helping you with.
You know, uh, tell me what you think.
Let's really dig in.
And you know, if we've got to spend the whole weekend jawboning, let's do that.
No, it was, it was never laid out like that.
I would say at most, it was kind of a fog land conversation where
You know, mom was kind of, I, you know, I know we maybe didn't have the best, you know, situation, but I, you know, I did the best, we made the best of it kind of thing.
Sorry, what?
This is your mother, is she talking about your father?
No, just talking about my upbringing in general.
She says, we didn't have the best situation
What does that mean?
I mean, this was her choice.
This is why she chose to marry your father.
She chose to separate from your father.
She chose where you lived.
She chose to date.
Like, what do you mean?
So she completely self abdicates?
She's just like a leaf on the breeze?
Yeah, I guess.
Sorry.
I guess it's one of these annoying phrases because if it's wrong, it's wrong.
If it's right, it's right.
But I guess it's just more fun.
But that's what she said.
Okay, so if she says we weren't in the best situation... Yeah, listen, if you and I are flying across the Andes and we crash, and, you know, we have to eat people, we're not in the best situation.
Right.
But who you choose to marry and have children with and separate from, that's all choice.
That's all chosen.
Those are all choices.
That's not a situation.
Right.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
You know, if some guy gets his friend and they go to rob a bank and then they're pinned down by a SWAT team, and he says, well, I guess this isn't the best situation, it's like, you chose to rob the bank!
Right.
What does your mother refer to, what is she referring to when she says we're not in the best situation?
Um... She... I guess she never liked the idea of... She doesn't like not being married to stepdad.
No, but when you meet...
That's more now, I assume, or maybe was it back then too?
I don't know about initial, like when I was a kid, but I know... No, no, but you do know, you must know what she's referring to.
You must know what she's referring to, not the best situation as a kid.
I mean, like I said, it was like one of those fog land conversations where a lot is
Okay, alright, so if you don't know, you don't know.
Now, let me ask you this.
Do you think that you have any habits around fogging and passivity?
Yeah, I mean, I'm doing it right now.
I think so, right?
A little bit rubber bones, a little bit fogging, right?
Now, do you know when your mother says, when your mother says, it wasn't the best situation, but we did the best we could, who is the we she's referring to there?
Her and myself.
Right.
So she's equating you and her.
So she's not being... It's always been like... Sorry, go ahead.
No, it's always been like...
There's always been this talk of, like, it's you and me.
Well, but she's the mother, so there is no we, with regards to circumstances, because she chooses the circumstances, you don't.
Yeah.
Right?
So, if she's trying to bind you and her together, oh, you and me against the world, you and me, we had to survive this, you and me, we had to, but we did the best we could, right?
So she's making an equation there, right?
That you and she have the same level of willpower and choices and effect on life, right?
Right.
So either you had as much choice as she did, and you were equal, in which case you should have been able to beat her with a belt if she did something you didn't like, but that never happened, right?
So she has perfect authority when it comes to abusing you.
She has perfect authority, but... If you have any criticisms... Oh, it's you and me, honey.
We're equals.
Right.
But you weren't equals.
She was the mother.
She was fully in charge.
She determined the entire circumstances of your childhood.
And she beat you dozens of times when you displeased her.
And she punished you thereafter with money and other goodies.
So you weren't equals.
See, all of this, all of this, the reason I've been talking to you about this stuff for so long, is all of this is based on the fundamental question, should I take care of my mother?
Is that right?
Correct.
Okay.
So my question is, did she parent?
And parenting means putting the needs of your children first, doing things to benefit them, regardless of personal discomfort.
I mean, if there was a newborn and the mom said, Oh, I don't want to get up.
I'm just going to put earplugs in and shut my door.
And I don't want to get up because I'm tired.
We would say that's a bad mother.
Right?
Right.
Because she's not feeding the child who desperately needs food because it would be uncomfortable for her, right?
Right.
So that's not parenting.
Right.
So, did your mother... I mean, it doesn't sound like your two fathers did much parenting.
No.
Did your mother parent you?
Did she engage with you?
Did she learn about you?
Did she stimulate the best within you?
Did she make sacrifices for you even if those sacrifices include personal discomfort and self-criticism?
Has she put your needs first?
Does she devote herself to your well-being?
Is she willing to do whatever it takes to help you achieve happiness even if this means turning laser eyes on herself?
Did she teach you virtues, principles, practicalities?
How to think?
Why be good?
Did she teach you
Everything that she learned from her own mistakes.
Did she teach you all the red flags that you need to see that she maybe didn't see in your father?
Did she instruct you on how to live?
Did she teach you how to be safe?
Did she teach you who you should give your heart to and who you should keep your heart distant from?
Was she wise?
Did she transfer those virtues and that wisdom to you so that you can stride confidently in life with the best possible instruction that she's capable of?
That's a parent.
And I know she didn't.
I know that the parents didn't because you're calling me.
And you were untutored, as far as I can see.
And so you're just kind of feeling your way along.
And you don't listen to your mother because she doesn't have any credibility for you, because the way that you gain credibility is to do what is difficult.
I mean, nobody says to me, Steph, you're an excellent walker.
Walking isn't that difficult, right?
Now, maybe if I injured my leg and, right, had to go through rehab or, oh, good walking or whatever, right?
Your mother takes the easy path if there's criticism.
She just fogs and pretends, sir, that you were just two people struggling against difficult forces in the world, brother and sister, like, I don't know, like a toddler.
Your father gave you no instruction and your mother didn't say, listen, you've got to give him instruction.
Your father just kind of flaked out and faded out.
Well, I'm maybe not the best person to go, right?
Well, you should have learned from that.
Even if you're a fat guy, you can say to people, don't do what I do, and here's what I did, and here's what I didn't learn, and here's, right?
Here's the mistakes I'm making, so you can at least learn how to avoid those.
But your father just kind of flaked out, right?
Yeah.
And you didn't share some essential information about dating and so on with your stepfather, right?
Because you knew what he was going to say, and what he was going to say was going to be useless!
Am I wrong?
Right.
So you're untutored.
You're unparented, to a large degree.
Yeah.
So if you don't respect your parents, why would you want to become a parent?
If you think that this is good parenting, why would you want to become a parent?
Why would you want to voluntarily step into a role populated by people you don't respect, who didn't really do much parenting at all, at the moral level?
Like, why would you want to do that?
Why would that be a high goal for you?
Parenting is mealy-mouthed self-justification, manipulation, falsehood, and the avoidance of all personal responsibility while inflicting significant punishments on your children.
How's that for a job description?
You want that job?
And, but I didn't, I didn't want to do all that.
I wanted to, I want to learn from all that.
Okay.
No, no, no, no, no, no.
How much of this is news to you?
How much of what I'm saying is new to you?
It's not.
And I do know, I do know, and this has been in the back of my head.
I, I've, I've,
Just been afraid to.
Why don't you tell me when I'm going through all of this work, I already know this stuff.
I'm not, not criticizing.
I'm just genuinely curious, right?
Well, it's, I, I guess, trying to explain all the backstory and whatnot and hard to, I don't know, hard to.
You get put on the spot.
Yeah, that's more excuses.
Listen, I know you don't know this stuff.
I know you don't know this stuff.
How do I know?
From what I've told you.
Well, that's very generic and a non-answer.
How do you know?
I'm sorry, I'm just going to wait for all that background noise to stop.
Sorry, I have to move my car, but it's not starting.
Oh, okay.
Listen, no, take your time.
I don't want you to be distracted while you drive, so pretend I'm not here and just let me know when you're done, but don't feel any stress or worry.
Just focus on your driving and be safe.
Okay.
I'll just mute here and then you tell me when you're done.
Okay.
No rush at all.
Take your time.
All right, are we back?
Hi, yeah, I'm so sorry about that.
No, no, it's fine.
Don't worry about it.
Don't worry about it.
Okay, so, yes.
So, why do I think, or rather, how do I know that you do know all of these things?
Or that you don't know many of these things, at least consciously, about how unparented you are?
Well, is it?
Sorry, go ahead.
Because I called and asked, or asked a separate question, but... Well, again, that's very, very generic.
All right, so this is the message that you sent me.
And I'm not sort of reading this to catch you out or anything like that.
I'm just telling you this is the sort of evidence I came with.
Oh, sure.
Sure.
A couple of years ago, I moved out west for a job and sense of adventure.
However, the living situation out there, as well as the company I worked for, were not ideal.
A couple of years later, I moved back home to be closer to family and live in a more affordable area.
I recognize my duty as a single child to take care of my mother in her later years.
So, you feel a very grave sense of obligation to your mother because she mothered you, right?
She parented you.
I mean, if you had a guy who was a sperm donor, let's just take an extreme example, right?
If you had a guy who was a sperm donor, then would you feel obligated to take care of him in his old age?
No.
Well, why not?
I mean, he's your father.
But he wouldn't have physically done anything for my caretaking, for my upbringing.
So he didn't parent you?
Right.
So, if your parents had been great and wonderful and involved and caring, then when they got older, and I know people like this, so I'm not speaking out of my armpit,
If your parents were great and wonderful and nice and thoughtful and had raised you well and you were happily married and so on, then when they got older and they needed some help, I mean, I think in general you'd say, well, yeah, I'll do that.
I mean, I'm so grateful to them and I love them so much and I want to make their lives as comfortable as possible.
And you would do that and you wouldn't call me, right?
Right.
So why are you calling me?
Because part of you doesn't want to do it.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
Now, everyone's gonna tell you all about all the obligations and your parents and they did this and they did that and you owe them this.
Everyone's gonna tell you that.
But it doesn't really mean anything.
Right.
Right.
So what I'm interested in is the part of you that doesn't want to.
Now, what we can do, of course, and what a lot of people do, is they say, oh well, but you should just want to.
You know, it's an obligation, they did this, they did that, and you just have to, right?
All this stuff, right?
Right.
But that's not philosophy, that's just manipulative guilting, right?
Right.
So what I'm interested in is, okay, so this guy doesn't want to do this part to take care of his aging mother, is that right?
Yeah, I mean, she's not elderly, she's in her fifties, but, you know, it's coming.
Okay, but she also has, effectively, she has a husband, right?
Yes.
So, I'm trying to figure out why that would be on you.
Right.
And again, I'm happy to hear, right, but she has someone to take care of her.
So, I'm sort of trying to figure out, you know, when I get these kinds of messages, right, to tell you sort of my thinking, I'm trying to figure out why is this on you?
Well, I know when this is what pops into my head when I initially left to go out west.
So my parents had COVID.
They went through all that.
And I was the one that was taking, you know, my stepdad was in the hospital, but my mom was at home.
I was the one that was taking care of her.
So when I brought up that I wanted to leave,
My stepdad said that like, you know, who's basically said like, who's going to take care of us?
You know, like if we're both down and out.
Yeah.
And what does that mean?
Take care of them?
They're in their fifties.
I'm in my fifties.
I'm in my late fifties.
Right.
I mean, so help me understand what your stepfather, was it your father or your stepfather, your stepfather, right?
Stepfather.
Okay.
So what, what, what do you, what did your stepfather mean?
I'm like, who's going to take care of us?
Yeah, just when, if they're both, you know, like in that situation, they were like, one was hospitalized, the other was bedridden.
The only person that could take care of them was me.
Sorry, I don't, I don't understand.
The only person that could take care of them is you?
What does that mean?
I mean, there's nurses, there's doctors, there's in-home care, there's all sorts of people who can take care of you.
The hospital turned my mom away.
They wanted nothing to do with her.
What?
Why?
Hospitals aren't allowed legally to turn people away as far as I know.
Well, that's, that's it.
It was, it was COVID, you know, they, they took... Oh, okay.
So the once in, in, in a thousand years pandemic, right?
What would that have to do with anything?
It's, it's, it's the fact that they got, they got a severe illness.
Uh-huh.
And needed assistance.
They needed someone else other than the two of them to make sure they're doing okay.
Okay.
So do they, are they not part, are they part of a church or?
No.
Are they part of a community?
They, I mean, they have, yeah, they have family members, but I, I guess I'm thinking more in the lines of if
I don't know if they all die, you know, and it's just them or... I'm sorry, if who all dies?
The, you know, the supposed family members that would take care of, take care of them if they're in a situation.
I'm sorry, I'm really trying to sort of, so if there's a mass extinction event, is that... No, but say, you know,
Again, sorry, I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'm just trying to understand what the scenario is here.
Sorry, and I apologize, I'm trying to give a situation without being too general, like give my situation... No, no, no, this is your stepfather's issue, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so I'm trying to figure out why you have to... He doesn't have any other...
Oh, sorry.
Well, he, he doesn't have any other children or any, any, like I'm, I'm, I'm his only son.
Why, um, why didn't, why didn't he have any other children?
Do you know?
I don't know.
Um, and, and how old were you when he came into your life?
They started dating.
I was, it was around like preschool, kindergarten.
When they started dating, it was really serious, you know, and he moved in, uh, maybe grade school.
Okay.
And they've been together since then.
Sorry, did he want more children with your mother?
Is that right?
I don't think so.
That, I don't know, but I don't, that never came up.
I know that my mom, she told me once, when having me, she only wanted one kid, so I imagine that she didn't want another one.
Okay, so they had only one child, and they chose not to have more children together, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so they saved a huge amount of money by not having, say, two or three kids, right?
Right.
Okay, so they saved a huge amount of money by not having a bunch of kids, and so they should take that money and make sure that they have it set aside for when they get old.
Right?
So that they can hire the kind of care that they need.
Because, I mean, what are the odds if there's that kind of medical catastrophe, what are you supposed to do?
You're not a doctor!
Like they need home care.
They need, right.
They need all of that stuff.
Right.
I mean, if you, if you only have one kid, you know, kids cost, I don't know, it depends on where you are or whatever estimates there are that's going on, but kids cost at least a couple of hundred thousand dollars to raise.
Right.
And, and they chose, so let's say they, they saved themselves half a million dollars, um, 30 years ago.
So they invest that half a million dollars or something like that.
And then that money grows, or you know, maybe you talk to them about crypto, I don't know, right?
So then they have more than enough money for being taken care of by professionals, not you, right?
Because you've got a life to live, you've got a life to lead.
You have a woman to meet, you have children to raise, you have a career, you're going to have to travel.
So I'm, I'm not quite sure I understand the problem.
Sorry.
Sorry to be obtuse.
I mean, do they have money?
No.
Um, no, not, not really.
I mean, my stepdad, you know, we're, I guess, I think it's called working class.
You know, we're not, he, he was able to buy a house in a, in a nice area early on.
You know, so he has wealth in that sense.
Oh, okay, so that's good.
So he can sell the house, they can move to a smaller place, which they don't need a big house, obviously, so he can sell the house and he can use that for his medical and care expenses, right?
And we're probably talking at least 20 years from now, right?
They're in their 50s.
Yeah.
So again, I'm not seeing... Are they still working, your parents?
Yeah, yeah, they're still working.
Okay, so they're working, they're saving, they've had their entire life to work, they've saved a whole bunch of money, you know, there are lots of working-class families, I know them!
They have four or five or six children.
Your parents had only one, so they saved a lot of money.
And of course, as parents, they would be responsible, right?
And they would say, listen, the last thing we want to do
Is to burden our son when he's in the process of marrying and raising children.
The last thing we'd ever want to do is burden our son with expenses and time, right?
So, we absolutely have to set aside money and resources to take care of all of that, right?
There's, I mean, disability insurance will pay you if you get disabled or old.
There's, of course, death benefits if somebody were to die.
So, I'm sure that they've got insurance and, you know, all of the basic things that responsible parents do to make sure that they're not a burden to their children, right?
Right.
Do you know if they have disability insurance?
No, they don't.
What do you mean?
They don't have, they don't have disability insurance?
Not that I'm aware of.
I mean, I know that's, that's a shame really.
They should get disability insurance, shouldn't they?
Yeah, I guess, probably.
What do you mean?
I know they have, I know they have general, like general health insurance.
I don't think they have anything specific like that.
But isn't, isn't, I'm sorry, your, your, your stepfather is very concerned about being disabled, right?
Yeah, or at least at the time when he brought that up.
Okay, well, are we farking here again?
Oh God.
No.
See, if he's not worried about it now, why are we talking?
If there's no concern about it now, are we farking again?
No.
Because, you know, I don't have infinite patience for this stuff.
I've got to get on with my day too, right?
Sure.
So your father is, uh, your stepfather is very concerned about being disabled, right?
So, because if you're very concerned about being disabled, then you would say, I mean, he would know about insurance, right?
Right.
So he'd get disability insurance.
Now, if he didn't get disability insurance, okay, well then he can just go and buy it now, right?
Right.
And then they'll be taken care of.
Bills and income and in-home care and all of that will be taken care of, right?
Right.
Am I wrong?
No.
So why wouldn't you just tell them that?
If you're concerned about health issues, then you need to get some disability insurance.
Now, that doesn't mean you won't care, doesn't mean you won't help out or whatever, but you can't, what are you, are you supposed to put your whole life on hold because your parents who are in their 50s might get unwell?
That was the dilemma I had.
That was the, like you said, that's what people say.
So that was, that's what I felt.
No, why is it a dilemma?
So your father, your father is saying, I'm worried.
Sorry, it's not a dilemma.
It's not a dilemma at all.
So your father is coming to you and saying, I'm worried about getting old and sick.
Right?
So yeah, that's, that's a, that is a concern.
That's part of life.
You know, that's, that's definitely a concern.
And so you can help him to solve that concern, right?
But I don't know that you say, I have to put my life on hold and hang around here for 20 years in case my parents get ill.
So it's right for me to do that?
Do what?
There's this.
And you can tell my voice is cracking again.
There's this, like, I don't know, emotional barrier about doing that.
Sorry, doing what?
Sorry.
Of giving them practical solutions to a problem?
I guess like me leaving for, I don't know, I guess me leaving for 20 years, it seemed like in an abandonment sort of situation in the sense that
Me assuming me being here is taking care of them, so me leaving is not taking care of them.
I'm not sure what you mean by taking care of them.
They're adults in their fifties.
Are they in decent health?
No.
My stepdad's probably in decent health.
But...
My mom, my mom has issues, you know, she's diabetic.
She has, she has some other ongoing issues.
Is she a diabetic, like the genetic kind?
Um, no, it's the, like the lifestyle.
Um, I think, yeah.
Cause like what type ones, like you get the, like it's wrong in your body type twos, the, yeah, the lifestyle kind.
And why, what, what in her lifestyle has given her diabetes?
I think it's diet and inactivity.
So she overeats and she doesn't exercise?
Yeah.
And she's now, she's been, I will, I do want to say that she has been dieting.
She's been working on that.
You know, she, like right now she's, she walks more often.
So she, she is consciously.
Watching what she eats and all that.
And sorry, how overweight is she?
Not very.
You know, she's not obese.
Okay.
So she just, what was, didn't exercise?
Yeah, just didn't exercise.
Which is her choice, right?
Right.
So why would her bad choices be a dictatorship on you?
Did you ever suggest that she might want to exercise a little more?
No.
What?
Why not?
I have now, but when she was told... No, no, hang on, hang on, hang on.
Your mother doesn't exercise, is that right?
Or didn't in the past, right?
Didn't in the past.
Okay.
And for how long did she not exercise?
As long as, as long as I... Well, she, except for various moments, you know, there was, there was a time when she had some... Okay, now come on, I'm not going into this level of granularity.
I have a life to live.
Okay, please, for the love of all that's God, did she exercise in any consistent way?
Not consistently.
Okay, so no, the answer is no, she did not exercise in any consistent way, right?
And she also ate poorly, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so she ate poorly and she didn't exercise in any consistent way, right?
Right.
And you never said to her, Mom, I love you, you've got to exercise?
You've got to eat better?
Yes, I've said that.
I don't just mean recently.
Yeah, I mean, I've said it in the past.
Okay, so she didn't take your advice.
You told her, here's how to avoid getting ill.
Right?
And she didn't listen to your advice, right?
Right.
So, who's responsible for that?
Her.
Right.
So why is that on you?
It's not.
I don't think so.
And this is what, if you didn't care about your mom enough, and I'm not blaming you for this, right?
I'm just saying, if you didn't care enough about your mom to tell her to eat better and exercise to the point where she has a pretty dangerous illness,
Why, why would you stop pretending to care about her now?
If you didn't care about her enough to prevent this or at least help prevent this, why?
I don't understand.
If I don't care enough about a friend of mine to even say to him, you got to exercise and eat better and, and really make that stick or really, you know, really go for that and really make that happen.
As you know, if, if I don't care about a friend of mine enough to really help him prevent getting sick, then why would I care about him in particular being sick?
See, I think what happened is, and again, I don't want you to feel like a bad guy or anything, I think what happened is you're mad at your parents for not parenting you, so you didn't do too much to intervene in their bad health decisions.
No, you can ignore me as a kid.
I'll just watch you get sick.
You sabotaged me?
With indifference?
And let me date for 15 years without ever helping me get a proper mate?
You sabotaged me with indifference?
Hey, guess what, Mom?
I'll sabotage you with indifference.
And now you're attempting to cover up all of that manipulation that's going both ways with guilt, right?
Yeah.
Am I wrong?
No, no, no, you're right.
And you're enmeshed in all of this, right?
You're living in their house, you're... right?
Yeah.
You said, I'm afraid of being too far from my mother to help when in need, but also afraid that I will never be happy and feel stuck.
She has mentioned that if I will be happier somewhere else, she would support that, but there is always an underlying guilt in the idea of my being that far.
I feel my mother raised me well enough to warrant this commitment to her.
Okay, so if you feel that your mother raised me well enough, sorry, if you feel that your mother raised you well enough to warrant this commitment, then you wouldn't call me, right?
I know you're calling me, because you don't feel that, otherwise you wouldn't call me, right?
How do I know I'm not being guilted to stay close because I'm mom's only child?
Now, I'm the parent of an only child.
So, of course, it's fundamentally incumbent upon me to make sure I do not become a burden because she can't share that burden with other children.
Does that make sense?
Right.
That's the job.
I mean, it's not a surprise to them that you're an only child, right?
Right.
So, you've got to make sure that you don't become a burden to your only child.
So, you've got to save your money.
You've got to have lots of insurance.
You've got to have a community that can help you.
Especially because you're not even married, right?
Right.
And so how are you going to get married if you're taking care of aging relatives?
Yeah.
So it's completely unfair to ask you.
Yeah.
You know, plus, you know, they made a marital commitment to stay together, your biological father and mother, they made a marital commitment to be together forever, right?
Yeah.
Better or worse?
Right.
Till death do us part, in sickness and in health, right?
Right.
Did they keep those vows?
No.
No?
So, they already say you don't have to keep your vows.
See, you don't have to.
Even relationships that you chose, you don't have to keep those vows, right?
Right.
I mean, it seems to me like you're just kind of half not there.
Not just in this call, but in your life, and you're just bouncing off other people's needs.
Do you want to stay in the neighborhood to take care of your parents?
Sorry?
No, I don't.
Okay.
Have you signed a contract?
Are you legally and or foundationally morally obligated to take care of people who didn't do much parenting to you?
See how easy philosophy is?
Yeah.
I mean, you're talking about wanting to take care of them.
Have you talked to your three parents about the deficiencies in their parenting?
No.
So, I mean, you can't even tell the truth to these people and you want to wipe their butts for 20 years?
Right.
That's crazy.
Right.
I mean, I can't tell you what to do, obviously, but if I were in your shoes, I'd be like, okay, well, let me at least have honest and direct conversations with these people and say, listen, I really, uh, I have, I have real problems taking care of you.
Like I really do.
I feel like I was kind of unraised.
I feel like this family has kind of left me dangling for 12 years and, and I really didn't get much instruction on how to be a father or a man or a husband.
Um.
And we have this kind of nonsense relationship where we don't talk about anything particularly important.
And mom, you keep equating the two of us like it was you and I against the world when you're supposed to be the mother.
You beat me when I was little.
Like there's a lot of problems.
There's a lot of stuff to unpack here.
I need to have a direct conversation with you people because I'm tired of not existing in this relationship.
I mean, the idea that you have massive obligations with people you can't even be honest with is incomprehensible to me.
Yes, I will absolutely put my life on hold and maybe not get married and have children, but I won't tell you the truth about what I think and feel.
I mean, if you don't have an obligation to tell the truth, what other obligations mean anything?
Tell the truth and then see what obligations arise from that, but I can't imagine having an obligation to someone that involves sacrificing your entire life when you don't even feel like you have an obligation to tell them the truth about what you think and feel.
If that makes sense.
It does, yeah.
I wouldn't feel the same for a stranger, you know, and that's how it feels being described.
You know, a stranger didn't get me anything, I wouldn't give anything to them.
I mean, you have a history and I get all of that, but I would just say that, be honest, the first obligation we have, if we claim to have a relationship, isn't the first obligation we have to tell the truth?
Yeah.
I mean, if you get some woman to fall for you because you claim to be some dogecoin zillionaire and an astronaut and a pilot and it's all a lie, it's not a real relationship, is it?
No.
That's just an exploitation of gullibility, right?
Right, right.
So, if you claim to have a relationship, and I'm not saying you don't, but if you have a relationship, shouldn't your first responsibility be to tell the truth?
Yes.
So, tell the truth.
I mean, all these other obligations and so on, I don't know what's on the other side of telling the truth, but it's not real now.
Everyone's just avoiding topics.
Everyone's just avoiding contact.
Everybody's just avoiding the facts.
I mean, your parents want to avoid it for obvious reasons, and you're going along with it.
Okay, but let's not pretend that's any kind of real relationship.
If you can't tell the truth to people, you're not in a relationship.
I mean, about foundational things, you know, whatever, right?
So that's my, um, that's my thought about it.
Before you get involved in these massive brain spanning obligations, how about you just tell the truth about what you think and feel?
Yeah.
Because, I mean, that's why you can't get a wife, because you're not used to telling the truth.
You say it's shyness?
No, you're just afraid to tell the truth, because I assume that you feel, and I'm sure you're right, you'll be punished for telling the truth.
Because, you know, if people are exploiting you and you tell the truth, you become inconvenient to them and they'll sometimes get mad at you, right?
So maybe that's the scenario, could be something else, but that would be my guess.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, yeah.
No, listen, that's no problem.
I mean, we've been talking for almost three hours.
It's a long call, and so I'll probably end here.
And, of course, you can listen to this back.
But, you know, first of all, massive sympathies.
Like, I mean, I'm really sorry that you were so untrained.
And I'm glad if you're finding things on the internet that are helping you learn a little bit more about these things, I think that's fantastic and good for you, and I'm really sorry that you were so untrained.
If it's any consolation, I was untrained as well, and it took me a long time to get my crap together in any way, shape, or form, so don't feel bad about that.
I think we're all in similar boats.
Those of us who are raised by wolves would be better, because at least then we'd know how to chew on the neck of a deer.
But, uh, so yeah, I mean, huge, huge amounts of sympathies.
And I mean, I'm, I'm sure you can get what you want, but you need to practice being present in a relationship because a woman will sense that, right?
A woman will sense, oh, this guy just kind of dodges and avoids and minimizes and gaslights and fogs and isn't direct.
And it's like, that's too exhausting.
Right?
Yeah.
She's probably like a quality woman is going to be like, no, I need, I need a man who can tell the truth.
And you really can't be more honest than your least honest relationship.
Like you can't be honest in life more than your least honest relationship.
And if you have a relationship with your parents, that's all about lying and hiding and pretending things aren't what they are.
And then that's going to falsify everything.
And then you're not going to be able to find a quality woman because she's going to sense that falseness and say, well, I'm, there may be a great guy in there, but I don't have any consistent access to him.
So it, the better he is, the more torture it will be.
It's like you're starving and your favorite food is locked on the other side of the iron bars.
It's like, that's really frustrating, right?
Yeah.
All right.
Anything else you wanted to mention?
No, I, no, I just, just an extreme thank you for
Taking the time to talk with me.
Oh, listen, man.
You're absolutely worth it.
You're a great guy, and I really, really appreciate your honesty and openness with this stuff, because I obviously do know that it could be kind of rough, and you did a fantastic job.
Thank you.
Yeah, I'm definitely going to take this to heart.
All right.
Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
Will do.
Yeah.
So much stuff.
Oh, tell me.
Tell me what you're feeling, brother.
It almost feels like a weight is lifted, in a sense, where there's a direct path.
I can have this conversation, open and honesty, if it goes one way, right?
If it goes the other way,
Awesome.
I know what the situation is and I can, I can react to that.
Clarity is everything.
And if you could do me one other favor, please don't drive when you're upset.
Like I know you're feeling quite emotional and if you do me a real solid, you know, uh, have your emotions and, and respect your emotions, but please don't drive until you feel calmer because as you know, emotions and strong emotions and good driving don't usually go hand in hand.
