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April 21, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:49:34
I CAN'T GET A GIRLFRIEND! Freedomain Call In
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Good morning, Steph.
What advice, if any, would you give to a young man in the current dating market where two out of three men are chronically single or have little to no friends?
The competition for women is getting so tough that men are resorting to makeup and plastic surgeries.
Social media is filled with mogging and looks maxing content.
Blackpill is the idea that your genetics determine your path in life.
IQ, looks, height, and even work drive are mostly genetic.
Yes, we still have free will, but if you try to exit the parameters your genetics set for you, you will get an insane amount of pushback, ostracism, and discrimination.
With this in mind, it's not surprising that there is a Doomer culture thriving in the youth.
This conversation can be really eye-opening for your younger viewers, such as myself, since I want to Since I want to get into a more detailed discussion about this, I appreciate your back and forth with me this last, it was last Wednesday.
Hopefully this conversation will clear things up.
Thank you for your time and have a wonderful day.
Yeah, no, I, I appreciate that.
And of course I do have some real sympathies for people who are in this situation.
The daily market is.
Obviously challenging, whether it's challenging more obviously now or whether it was the same in the past but more hidden, that's, you know, maybe another topic.
But why don't you tell me a little bit about your journey in the dating market and what's happened or not happened and how you got into the Manosphere and that kind of stuff.
Well, I got into the Manosphere when I was like in the middle of high school, more like just as a It's a hobby more like it's very interesting to hear.
It's like, Oh, I can get some tips and tricks for the future.
I got into you.
I was a communist back then.
And then you got me more into the free market side of things.
Thank you for that.
Um, by the end of high school, I got into a Blackfield constant.
It's more like, uh, it's my, it's after winter break.
I'm like, holy shit.
It hits me like a ton of bricks.
Like I'm almost out of high school and like, Never had a girlfriend in high school, never spoken, never held hands with a woman.
It's like, what the hell is happening?
Then I got into Black Belt content from there.
Then, you know, I got all the statistics like, oh, it's looks you need to be this, this tall.
And then it's like, and so I went into college and I'm like, okay, let me implement some of this stuff.
Like I'm getting a better haircut, face care routine, stuff like that.
I started trying to talk to women more often and basically I tried multiple different times and it just it all turns itself like they're all extremely flaky like they'll talk with you one way and then oh let's meet up let's do something it's like oh I can't I'm sick something something came up like it it's just a disaster from then on and then because my mother well she I don't know she doesn't understand this stuff like I tried talking to her about it She doesn't really get it at all.
She just gives me like boomer advice.
It's like, oh, just go on a dating app or something like that.
So I just kind of, I didn't give up on dating, but I'm like, I need to do something more drastic.
And this is where I thought about doing a plastic surgery.
I dropped out of college after doing it for one year, I joined the military.
I did that, saved up a bunch of money, got out the military, got plastic surgery.
And now I'm here.
Well, I guess there's somebody missing from the equation, right?
Yeah.
Dad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a, you're all about that.
He isn't there.
And I haven't spoke with him probably for almost like 15 years.
I'm not, I'm not originally from America.
I'm from Eastern Europe and I moved away from there when I was eight.
Well, you were moved away from there.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Like you made some choice there, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Now, what happened with your parents' marriage?
What happened with your father?
You're in your twenties now?
Yeah.
I'm in my early twenties.
Early twenties.
Okay.
So what happened with your parents' marriage?
Well, when my mother had me at three months old, she found out that my father was cheating on her with another woman.
And after three years, she tolerated.
She told him to stop.
Don't do it.
Blah, blah, blah.
And then when I was three, they finally divorced when my mother found out he had a kid with that other woman.
So after that, she divorced them.
And then, like, I just had an on and off thing with him.
Like, you'll pick me up on weekends sometimes.
We'll just go do something.
He'll buy me something.
But nothing, nothing crazy.
So you're in your mom's language.
I hope you know that.
I know, I know.
So, what do I mean by that?
Uh, vague?
No.
Elusive?
No.
Do you know how long your parents were dating before your mom became pregnant?
They were dating since she was in, I think, latter half of high school, so like, three years, I think?
Right.
Okay.
So, let me tell you, Chickology 101, alright?
Or, Dysfunctional Chickology 101.
So, your mother's language is that she found out, right?
Yeah.
Why is that a woman's language?
A dysfunctional woman's language?
She's not taking responsibility because...
She's not telling me why she picked them.
She's just, Oh, I don't know where he turned bad and evil.
And that's when I had so tell me what, what, what is your mother's language?
What, what stories has she told you about?
The most foundational decision in any woman's life is who she has unprotected sex with.
Where she lives, the job she has, the education she has, none of that means squat compared to the most fundamental decision of who she has unprotected sex with.
Or who she has procreative sex with, right?
Because we can say, oh there was a condom, but the condom could break and blah blah blah, right?
So the most foundational decision, and it is a decision outside of course of sexual assault, so the most foundational decision a woman is ever going to make in her life, the most essential decision that anyone in society ever makes, Right, is who you have procreative sex with.
Now, of course, we can say, well, yes, but the man is doing it.
Yeah, but we all kind of know that men are fairly indiscriminate hound dogs.
And, you know, if given the opportunity in general, right, we'll do that.
Now, that doesn't mean that the man is not responsible.
It just means that traditionally women have evolved to be the gatekeepers.
Men ask out, and women say yes or no.
That's just the way it's evolved, and all of our sort of psychology and biology is associated with that.
So, but just to talk about your mother, who she chose to have, which is, you know, why I'm talking to you, because otherwise you wouldn't be here.
Who she chose to have procreative sex with is the most foundational decision of her life.
Yeah.
And what is your mother's story about how she became a mother?
Do you have any siblings?
No.
Okay.
Actually, I do from my father's side.
I assume you're not really in touch with them though, right?
Not at all.
Okay, so the most foundational thing that ever happened, and I mean I've been a dad now for like 15 and a half years, so there's no bigger change in your life.
Getting married is nothing compared to becoming a parent in terms of biggest changes in your life.
What is your mother's story?
And, you know, really get behind it.
Try not to judge it.
I'm sure she's told you this story a million times about her life and how it came to be that she was a mother and all of that.
So, tell me the story from her standpoint.
I mean, I'll be honest with you, Steph.
Every time I try to prone into that, she really does not want to talk about it.
She starts deflecting, changing the topic.
No, no, I'm not talking about the honest stuff.
I'm talking about her narrative.
No, her narrative, it's, oh, he was a good guy, and then one day he flipped.
And every time I tried to do more inquiry into that, she would change the subject.
Okay, but she doesn't just say that, right?
That there has to be more, like, give me the details of her story.
Or has she just said, he was a good guy, he flipped, and that's it?
You get, like, five or six words?
It's pretty much, yes, pretty much.
Almost instantly try to deflect and change the topic.
I tried multiple, like, three different times to talk about her past and it's such a hard thing to talk about.
Like, I need to pull every sentence out of her.
Okay.
But, like, she does say, oh, he was a good guy.
Like, she had no... It came out of nowhere.
Like, she would help him a lot with his studies, blah, blah, blah.
Like, she thought he was a good guy.
So she was a saint and a martyr, he just flipped.
Pretty much.
She never is like, oh, I could have done this better, I should have watched out for this.
It was never that.
Well, no, I'm not talking about the part wherein she takes responsibility.
Because I assume that hasn't happened.
I'm talking about the part where she says, I mean, anything.
About like my mother has talked to me and your mother may be obviously is different, right?
But my mother had talked to me a lot about my father and some of it, you know, it wasn't all negative.
She did talk about his positive qualities and so on.
But she very much was.
Uh, the victim of a, a, a, a cruel, a cruel man who, who just wouldn't love her in the way that a decent man would, whatever that kind of stuff.
Right?
So.
Over the years, have you gotten any information other than, he was a nice guy who flipped?
And I'm, you know, if there isn't any, I won't obviously keep drilling for oil in a swimming pool, but... I wish I could give you more.
I wish, but that's all I can give you.
Me and my mother, we don't talk about anything deeply at all, ever.
I need to bring it up, and then it's such a slogfest, it's like, yeah, it's not worth my effort.
Okay.
And what does your father say about this, or has your father said anything about this?
I have no idea what my father's stance on this situation is.
So, your father never talked about his marriage or your, his, were they married?
They were married?
Yes.
They were officially married and officially divorced.
Okay.
So, uh, your father has never said anything about any of this?
No.
What I can tell you is when I, When I moved to America, my father did try to take away child support from my mother multiple times, and the court denied him.
I don't know if that tells you anything.
Or they tried to keep me from moving to America, too, legally.
How often were you seeing your father before you were moved to America?
Like, maybe once a month?
And sorry, how old were you?
Eight or nine when you moved to America?
Yeah, I was eight.
Eight, okay.
And did you want to move to America?
I personally didn't.
But, like, I don't understand what America is.
You know, I was telling all my classmates, oh, I'm going to England, because they speak English.
Oh, right, right, right.
So, why did your mother move to America?
She won a green card.
And again, opportunities here are better.
That's what I'm assuming.
Oh, so your mother's never told you why you moved to America?
I mean, it's the typical sort of better opportunities, better lifestyle, like your typical American dream.
Okay.
And what was your mother's dating history?
Sorry, how old were you?
Remind me how old you were when your parents separated.
Three?
Yeah.
Okay, so, what was your mother's dating history?
I guess three onwards for you.
In Eastern Europe, I have no idea.
But there weren't, like, men around?
No, no, never.
But when we came to America, she would date multiple rich guys.
On and off, on and off.
She's pretty, right?
Yeah.
How pretty?
I mean, when she was younger.
Seven, eight.
Ah, okay.
So kind of desperate rich guys, okay.
Yeah, yeah, that's like... No, to date a seven with a kid, that's not super rich guy behavior, right?
I mean, Leonardo DiCaprio ain't taking a middle-aged seven with a kid, right?
Of course not, a kid doesn't have to.
Okay.
Not all of them were rich.
There were some, like, average joes.
That's when she got older.
Surprisingly.
Yeah.
Okay, so she... Sorry, go ahead.
And now she's dating some average joe.
And what would you... Did she have any long-lasting relationships?
No.
And how long would they last?
A year or two.
Oh, okay.
This current one's, like...
Three, I think, three years.
And this may be the distance, right?
She may go here, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you know, the time is ticking.
It's like now or never.
What do you mean?
Oh, because she's aging, aging out.
Yeah.
I could tell.
Like gaining weight, you know?
Oh, okay.
Like, all right.
Got it.
Got it.
Um, you don't have to give me her age, but was your mother a young woman when she had you?
Yes, in her early twenties.
Okay, okay.
Right, so the wall, right?
The wall is real.
Okay.
And do you know why your mother's relationships failed?
One of the first ones that I can remember of is because the parents of the guy, they were Like hardcore Jews and because my mother isn't Jewish, they told, no, we're not going to bless this marriage or this relationship.
He can't, he can't do it.
So that ended that way.
Another one is my mother caught the second millionaire guy in a cafe with talking with another woman.
Oh, another good guy who turned mysteriously.
Yeah.
Okay.
And.
There's, uh, this other one.
She gave the guy like thousands of dollars.
He was from another country.
I think she just had enough of his nonsense.
Cause he would constantly like lie.
You know, he'll make things sound way better than they actually are.
And then just never come through with anything that ended in that way.
Okay.
So sometimes she gets the money.
Sometimes she gives the money.
Yeah.
Or she gives the money she got from the other guys.
And your mom worked, or did she date?
Uh, she works.
And what field did she work in?
She's, uh, in the nursing field.
Oh no.
Sorry.
Why?
Well, I mean, I love nurses when I'm in the hospital, but I'd never date one.
That is the funny part.
It's like the most compassionate people seem to be not so compassionate.
Well, I mean, most likely to cheat and, you know, it's kind of unstable.
It's sort of a, there's kind of an instability to it.
Yeah.
Nurses channel all of their sort of maternal instincts into institutions.
Which is not good for pair bonding.
Anyway, that's a topic for another time.
So, when you were growing up, I guess, single son of a single mother, I mean, that's a risk factor, right?
I mean, in terms of dating and so on.
Like, don't have siblings, you're pair bonded, but the mother, no father around, that's a risk factor for dating.
And how did your mother, uh, discipline you when you were growing up?
If she did, she rarely disciplined me.
Like overall, like I was a good kid overall, but like the few times she would discipline me, like she would take away my PSP or like, Oh, we'll go stand in a corner for like an hour or something.
Uh, when I was, she wasn't corporal punishment mom.
Right.
And this happened really rarely, like maybe once a year, like Almost like honestly after my once I got big enough like where she can't hit me anymore like I almost never got punished.
So like once a year she would hit you?
Yeah.
Well, like she would flip out sometimes like, Oh, why are you this way?
Blah, blah, blah.
Like start swinging her hands out.
And like one day I just held her both of her hands.
She, she got like this shock.
Oh my God, what is he doing?
Then I pushed her back.
She's like, Oh, how dare you?
And then how dare you use force on a family member after beating you 15 times or hitting you 15 times, right?
Yeah.
Like slaps, like nothing, nothing like leaves bruises or anything like after, after that, like there was none of that.
Right.
And what about instruction on how to live, on what to do, how to be?
Did you get any of that?
Nothing life-related, but there's a bunch of nonsense micro stuff.
It's like, oh, I was in your car and you didn't have your settings properly.
Stuff that pisses me off, it's like, who cares?
She micromanages sometimes.
But never, oh, This is how you need to act or this is what you need to do for like friendships or something like that.
Like nothing, any of that.
It's like, you know, throw the baby in the water and learn how to swim or not, I guess.
Okay.
And what about, you know, you, you hit puberty, you get interested in girls and what happens with your mother?
Does she give you any dating advice or?
No.
Like, honestly, throughout high school, we live in the same house, but we're in two different rooms, we're just doing our own thing all the time, we rarely interacted.
Okay, so I'm trying to figure out, what actual parenting did she do?
Not that much.
Okay, well, what parenting did she do?
Like, she would tell me, oh, you gotta help out the family, take out the trash, wash the dishes here and there.
Okay, so that's like being a boss, but what parenting did she do?
Define parenting.
Parenting is teaching, instructing, coaching, helping kids.
In life, in life transitions, giving them advice, listening to their problems, trying to give, you know, positive and helpful feedback, teaching them morality and integrity and, you know, and parenting.
Well, none.
Okay.
Got it.
So she's like incubator roommate.
Yeah.
Like I had, I had you for like the morality stuff.
Okay.
And what are your, what's your relationship like with your mother now?
I mean, it got better after the military, but like any time I try to do, talk any, like something that's not like, Oh, what's the weather today?
Oh, let's go to the beach or something like nothing.
There's nothing, no deep conversations are happening.
I don't know that there, I mean, it's funny how people have like shallow and deep and I kind of understand it, but.
You just can't really be honest with her if you're bored with the weather and whatever, right?
Can you say, you know, Jesus, this is kind of boring.
I'm used to a little more stimulation.
I'd like to talk about things that are slightly more important.
Yeah, she would feel bad.
It's like, oh, why are you so negative?
You're always bringing me negative emotions.
Like, be a good son.
You'll never find a woman if you act this way, blah, blah, blah.
Ah, okay, so she's complaining about you, and she raised you.
Yeah.
She's not exactly got on the old responsibility bandwagon at any time since you were born.
Yeah, that's what it looks like.
Well, no, I don't want to misinterpret if I'm missing something.
I mean, does she say, um, help me understand the negative thoughts?
I mean, I raised you, I chose where you live.
I chose the values you were exposed to and I chose the values you were instructed on.
Help me understand where the negative stuff is coming from.
I mean, any responsibility for parenting or is it just kind of complaining?
Complaining.
Okay.
Endless complaining.
Right.
Right.
Okay.
But your relationship is okay, right?
I wouldn't call it okay.
It's like mediocre.
Like, okay's like 6 out of 10, mediocre's like 7, 4 out of 10.
So you're like at a 4 out of 10?
Yeah.
Okay.
Alright.
Like, it's better than like, you know, we're just in the same house, almost never interacting.
It's better than that now, but like... So you live in the same house?
Not anymore, I moved out.
Okay, when did you move out?
A year and a... almost two years ago.
Okay, got it, got it.
All right, and what are women for?
What is the value of women for you?
Like, you want a date, you want a girlfriend, and why?
What are the values, or what value do women bring to your life?
Well, I want to have children.
You need a woman for that.
You want to have a person you can rely on, tell your secrets to, tell your personal feelings to.
Someone you can trust.
like do or die, a companion.
Well, except for the having kids part, you could get that from a male friend, right?
I mean, again, I'm a virgin, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about, but like when you're,
I'm not having sex with a friend and like...
No, no, no, I said except for the kids part, which is involved in sex.
Yeah, but like... It's like having someone you can tell your secrets to, somebody who's going to be loyal, and so on.
I mean, you could theoretically get that from a male friend.
Yeah, but like, there's no intimacy there.
Maybe I'm overblowing what intimacy is, since I never had it.
But like, I'm thinking it'll change up the dynamics of the relationship.
Okay, so someone to tell your secrets to, who's going to be loyal, and someone you can impregnate, is that right?
Yeah.
How does that sound to you when it's coming back from what I'm saying?
It sounds pretty terrible.
Why is that?
It's like selfish, you're not providing value to the other person.
Well, I mean, is it fair to say that the secret sharing would be mutual, right?
She could share Yeah, yeah.
Most of the stuff is mutual.
Nah, I'm excited.
I'm excited.
other stuff is mutual.
Yeah, I mean, you'd be providing her with children, she'd be providing you with children,
right?
Yeah.
You sound kind of bored by this part of the conversation.
It's totally fine if you are, I just wanted to check in.
No, I'm excited.
I'm excited.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I'm sorry.
No, no, I'm not asking you to apologize, I just, if this is not interesting, we can
certainly move to another topic.
No, no, no, no.
It's interesting.
I just, I do sound melancholy.
I know that.
No, but you haven't.
Until I start asking what value women provide, you haven't sounded melancholic.
I suspect your mother's personality is moving into the conversation.
Yeah.
Your mother doesn't provide you value and I'm asking what value do women provide?
And you're like, yeah, well, yeah.
Right?
The melancholic is perhaps your mother's personality arising within you and saying, we don't like this line of questioning.
All right, let me ask you more directly.
What value does your mother provide in your life?
Financial.
Is she paying part of your bills?
She helps me with it, yes.
Okay.
But, like, when it comes to, like, emotionally, like, person to talk to... No, no, I'm not... Just overall value that your relationship with your mother provides to your life.
Outside of financially, she's definitely... Like, her story is kind of inspiring.
Like, she came to America alone, She's very, like financially wise, she's very successful.
Very successful.
As a nurse?
She's above a nurse now.
Okay, so she's very competent and she's like head of nursing, whatever it is.
Okay, so she's done very well financially?
Yeah, like it is inspiring.
Like you tell the story, it's like almost nobody did what she did alone.
Like no assistance.
Well, that's... that's kinda it.
So, the inspiring part for you is her professional or financial success?
Yeah.
Like, if she could do it, I could do it too.
Like, what's stopping me?
Okay.
Okay.
So, what value does your mother provide to your life other than some vague inspirational stuff and some money?
Oh, that's a hard question.
My I can't think of anything else I don't want to rush you.
Please do.
No, no, I don't want to rush you.
If you've been taking time to think of the value that your mother provides is an important question.
She does care for me.
Like she was, she always calls me, how are you doing?
Like, are you fed?
No, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on.
She won't talk about the important things that you want to talk about that you need to hear your origin story.
What happened with your father, right?
Yeah.
So if she cared for you and you do, you said on multiple occasions, you've asked her for these details, but she won't provide them.
Right.
So, I'm trying to square that with, she cares for you.
Now, the fact that she's concerned about you eating, okay, whatever, right?
I mean, that's like a pet, right?
Did the kitten eat today, right?
But caring about you, not your body or your stomach, right?
But wouldn't caring about you mean that you have really important questions that she needs to answer and she's not providing them?
That would be the opposite of caring about you, wouldn't it?
Yeah, it's like, uh, more of an accessory and not a human being.
Okay.
So.
And I do feel that way sometimes.
Okay.
Um, tell me more about that.
Like I'm just kind of there.
It's like she popped out a kid and it's like, oh, that's a like check mark that time to do something else I want to do.
And how well would you say she understands you?
Uh, zero out of 10.
Zero.
Okay.
Like we would start conversations, but like, we're like two different modes of thought.
And like, we're just either talking past each other or I'm trying to tell her, like, I'm not talking about this.
Sorry.
Let me think of an example.
I'm not, I'm not saying I don't, I just, I always want to make sure what, what the other person means in the conversation.
So this isn't like, well, what do you mean?
Like, it's not any kind of aggressive thing.
I'm genuinely like, what do you mean by that?
For example, like the way I understand the world versus her understanding of the world.
So like when it comes to dating, like to her, it's like, Oh, just go out and find somebody.
And I'm like, no, it doesn't work that way.
Like, it doesn't just land in your lap, but like, she is a female and it's, I do understand why she thinks this way, but like for a male, it wouldn't apply the same way.
You understand why she thinks this way?
So she says just basically be out there and people will date you?
Yes, yes, like... She doesn't... I mean, really?
Yeah.
So she... She views you as a female?
I'm trying to understand this.
That's what I tried to explain to her.
It's like, no, we're different.
It doesn't... No, but you can't explain to a nurse and a mother that boys are different from girls.
Maybe if you're a bad nurse or a mother, maybe that's where you need to... Well, no, I'm sure... Look, she didn't succeed as a nurse by confusing genders, right?
Of course not.
So... I'm trying to sort of understand this.
So... She doesn't understand men?
Or isn't curious about men, or doesn't want to understand, or listen to the man's experience, or something like that?
Definitely not.
Like, she doesn't do inquiry into my life that often.
And when she does, it's like surface-level stuff.
It's funny, her friend, she isn't a nurse.
I don't remember what she works as, but it's like she would bring up the fact, Oh, uh, do you have a girlfriend?
Oh, like you're this, you're this old now.
Like you should have a girlfriend now.
And my mom would like try to shut down that topic immediately.
And I'm like, Oh, mom would shut down the topic of why don't you have a girlfriend?
Yeah.
She'd be like, Oh, he'll find that it'll work out one day.
And then she's like, Oh, look, this, this person, he found a girlfriend at 26.
Like you just need to wait a little, you just need to grow up.
So why do you think your mother doesn't want to have any examination of why you don't have a girlfriend?
Well, if we can examine it, we can come up with solutions, and if I've solved the issue, it's going to be competition for her.
Right.
And that's not generic, by the way.
That's not like all women will resent their, like, son's new girlfriend.
That's not the case.
I mean, I've met lots of families where the parents are delighted when the kid finds a partner.
I would be delighted, too.
Like, finally, get out of here.
Get out of where?
Like, you can get out the house.
You could start your own.
No, but you're at the house!
Well, not her house.
I'm sorry, I thought you moved out two years ago.
Yeah, I don't live with my mother anymore.
So, get out of her house is referring to who?
No, I'm just saying in general, like, your kids can start their own family.
Sorry, I don't know when you're switching between you and generic person.
My bad.
Alright, so, does your mother have any kind of sense that your values are quite different from hers?
Um, I think she does, but it's her excuses.
Like, Oh, I just need to grow up a bit.
I need to experience life a bit more.
And like, I'll just eventually align with hers.
Okay.
So she has very, very different values are very different from hers.
Yeah.
Okay.
So if you meet a girl.
Let's go Waspie and call her Betty, right?
So you meet some, some girl, she's, her name is Betty.
Now Betty's values align with yours.
She's interested in, in depth and thoughts and life and questions and she's philosophical and all of that.
Right.
And then Betty meets your mom.
How does that go?
It's not going to go well.
It's going to be very, it's going to be a very surface level conversation.
Yeah.
My mom's probably going to be, I don't know if internally happy, but she'll seem happy externally.
And, um, the girl's going to be like, yeah, your mom's kind of vapid.
Well, and Betty is going to want to find out about your family history because she might be marrying into spending a lot of decades with and breeding with and having kids with, so to speak.
You're a mom, and genetically, so she's gonna have a whole bunch of questions, right?
I mean, she should, right?
Yeah, she should.
Okay.
So, Betty has a whole bunch of questions for your mom that, based on your history, your mom doesn't want to answer, right?
Yeah.
So what does your mom do in that situation?
Probably the same thing as me, just deflect, try to change the topic.
Yeah, but Betty won't stand for that, right?
I mean, Betty's not raised by your mom, wasn't ever hit by your mom, wasn't ever disciplined by your mom, wasn't ever dependent on your mom.
So Betty can just keep asking, right?
Well, she's just probably going to get pissed off and be like, I dropped the question.
Like I'm not, you're not my teacher or something.
You're not an authority figure.
I don't have to answer your questions.
Okay, and let's play that out.
So then Betty would say, but you know, I like your son a lot, and I'm family-oriented, so I would like to... I mean, you wouldn't buy a house without having it inspected.
You need to know things, right?
You wouldn't buy a used computer without starting it up and make sure it worked.
I mean, if I like your son and I, you know, maybe at some point, I don't know when exactly, but at some point, if I end up joining the family, you can understand that I'd like to know more about the family that I might be joining.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Okay.
answer these questions, like, I would really, I would really appreciate it.
I mean, it's a sign of caring for your son, right?
And you would do the same thing, like, you wouldn't get a job and never ask what the expectations or salary were, right?
You'd have a lot of questions before you took a job.
I mean, you're very successful in your field, Mrs. X, and you didn't get successful by not finding out details and important things, right?
Yeah.
Jesus Christ, this is hard.
So let's return to, you know, what happened with... I mean, this is the man I really care about.
I mean, I may fall in love with him.
I mean, who knows, right?
But I really care about him, which means I care about what happened to him when he was younger.
Right?
Because not only might I marry into this family, but I'm going to raise kids In this family, right?
I mean, hopefully, as a grandmother, you... I'm sure you would want to spend some time with your kids.
So, you know, we're going to spend a lot of time together.
So, I need to know how you think, what your values are.
You understand that.
This is not... This is actually a sign of respect, right?
If I didn't care about your son, I wouldn't be asking any of these questions, right?
But I do care about your son, and I know your son quite well.
But I don't know you, and of course you had a very unusual... your son had a very unusual family structure, right?
Single son of a single mother, that's a bit of a red flag statistically.
And also he was moved from one country, culture and language to quite a different country, culture and language.
And he also is unusually, and I think this is to his credit, right?
He's a virgin, no dating experience and so on.
So it's very unusual.
I'm sure some of that's positive, some of that may be negative, I don't know.
But you can understand that he doesn't have a lot of answers as to how he came to be and what happened with his parents.
I guess he can live without those answers, or he's learned to live without those answers.
I can't, obviously, because I have to, you know, like you see these birds with the nesting, right?
If I'm looking at joining this family and having kids in this environment, I mean, you do understand that I need to know the facts, right?
Yeah.
So, yeah, if you could just tell me more.
Would that defuse your mom?
Sorry to jump out of the roleplay, but I know you can't roleplay any answers because you don't have them, right?
Yeah, like, I'm just assuming she'll bring up nonsense, the flag.
Oh, okay.
Well, let's do that.
Okay, so let's do that.
I want to see what that's like.
Okay, so yeah, if you could tell me more about what happened with... I guess, well, the guy who would have been my father-in-law if you hadn't separated.
Well, again, she'll say, I met him in high school, I fell in love with him.
I asked this multiple times, she never said why she went for him, but it's probably a look.
But like I want to say he's not good looking.
But.
So that's all she'd say is I met him in high school.
It's a good thing.
Yeah, it's a guy I met in high school.
I thought he was a good guy.
And then in the end he ended up betraying me.
Because he had an affair.
Was it three months pregnant or three months after the birth of your son?
Three months... birth.
After birth, right?
Okay.
Yeah.
And were there any red flags, like you've obviously had a lot of time to think about this, were there any red flags looking back where you'd say, yeah, he was a bit of a player or, you know, you were with him for years, right?
And you chose to have a child with him.
Were there any red flags at all?
Obviously like this perfect guy who just started doing a terrible thing, which is sleeping around on his new mother, the mother of, the new mother of his child.
My mother was there, she never saw any red flags.
So, are you saying that there's a personality that can impregnate a woman and then cheat on her three months after she gives birth, but there's no sign of that anywhere in the personality?
Because, I mean, that's really cold and mean and terrible and horrible and, as you, I think, as your son has said, she had, he had a...
a child with this woman as well, so he's really kind of a spray-and-pray seed guy.
So, are you saying that this horrible amount of dysfunction in a person where he's cheating and creating second families while his wife is nursing their newborn, that there's no sign of that anywhere in the personality?
No.
But that's not true.
Like, I can understand why you'd want to think that was true, because you wouldn't want to sit there and say, gee, he showed signs of dysfunction and I made a mistake, right?
And I'm not calling your son a mistake, I'm just saying that he was not the ideal father for your children, but I'm no psychologist, but I do understand that that kind of callous, selfish, cold-hearted personality structure doesn't just appear out of nowhere.
I mean, something in his family, something in how he treated you, something in how he treated others.
A person can't just hide being completely selfish, cold, cruel, and callous for years and then only manifest it suddenly out of nowhere.
Especially when he's young, right?
I mean, maybe some con men get better as they get older, but they're not that great when they're 16, right?
Yeah.
So, let me, you know, when you think back on it, I mean, was his family good?
Was there any dysfunctional problems in him that you noticed?
Because it's not the case that people can just turn and their personality completely reverses.
From what I can think of, his family had like slightly better status than mine.
Slightly.
And also, My mother had a bad relationship with her father who was very abusive.
He would drink a lot.
He was an alcoholic at some point in his life and she really hated him.
So maybe my dad was like a way to leave that behind, that household behind.
Right.
So, uh, and I, you know, I would say to your mom as Betty, I really sympathize with that.
I mean, that's, that's a horribly tough.
situation to have an alcoholic father who I assume is also dangerous and unstable and all of that.
Maybe he drinks and drives or whatever with you in the car, perhaps.
And so it's like a death threat every time you're on four wheels.
And so you're desperate to get out.
This guy comes along, offers you a place to go.
And I can understand that behavior.
I really can.
And I can hugely sympathize with it as well.
But that doesn't mean that Your son's father showed no signs of dysfunction.
He showed less signs of dysfunction than your father.
He was a safer place to land, but that's not the same as saying he showed no signs of dysfunction, if that makes any sense.
Stefan, step out of the roleplay for a minute.
Yeah, yeah.
If I bring in my mother right now to talk with you, are you okay with that?
I'd rather talk with you a little bit first.
Okay.
Yeah, she's visiting me, so she's right here.
Does she know anything about what I do?
Is she at all prepared for this conversation?
Has she listened to call-in shows before?
Does she know she's being recorded?
Does she know it will be published?
That's a whole other thing.
So I would be happy to talk with her, but she'd need to understand what she was getting into first.
Okay.
As opposed to talk to this guy on the internet about the most personal secrets of your life with no context.
That's probably not going to go super well.
Oh, I'm desperate.
Well, you don't have to be.
You don't have to be.
A lot of these questions, I can't even get answers to.
No, no, I get that.
So she would just evade Betty, right?
Or she wouldn't answer, right?
Yeah.
She'll just give you a generic NPC responses.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
So, um, uh, Betty would say to you afterwards, like the woman's a brick wall.
Yup.
Right now, either she... I mean, obviously, your mother is very intelligent, right?
I mean, because she's done very well in her career in a complicated field with life and death decisions.
She's done very well.
She manages people.
She's, you know, clawed her way up in a different country to the top of her profession.
So, obviously, a highly intelligent woman.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Very intelligent.
Okay.
And obviously, to be a nurse, she has to have a fantastic memory.
Yes.
I mean, a lot of medicine.
A friend of mine is going through his meds.
Sorry, I shouldn't say his meds.
He's going through his licensure and the amount of stuff you have to memorize is like staggering, right?
So she has a fantastic memory.
Otherwise, she couldn't be a nurse, let alone be at the very top of the nursing profession, which is even more of a memory situation.
So your mother Has a fantastic memory, so she does remember these things.
Yeah.
But she doesn't want to share them, right?
Even though she knows it's kind of agonizing for you that you don't know what happened, right?
Yeah, but it's probably agonizing for her, too.
What?
It's probably agonizing for her, too.
Like, she has to, like, relive those memories or admit fault in them.
Oh boy, isn't that interesting.
When I talk about what's important to you, you immediately jump to the defense of your mother.
Yeah, I'm my mama's boy.
Did you just notice that?
Yeah, in the back of my head, I tell my mother, I'm like, oh, but there are some redeeming qualities, like she's not doom and gloom.
Hang on, hang on.
Your mother has a child with a guy who's terrible.
I mean, he's terrible, right?
I mean, you almost can't do worse, right?
Yeah.
And then she hides that from you for close on a quarter century.
These were her choices, not yours.
She was an adult, you were a baby.
You've needed this information for a long time.
Your mother has not provided it for you.
This information would help you date.
Because if she can say, here are the red flags, here's what to look for, here's what I overlooked, won't that help you date?
Of course it will.
So she's withholding from you information that's essential for you to have for your peace of mind, for your identity, for your dating safety and security, right?
Yeah.
And you're like, but it might be upsetting to her.
So in a conflict between what you legitimately need and which would be helpful and perhaps even life-saving for your mother to provide, she doesn't provide it and you jump to her defense.
So you have a conflict between your needs and your mother's needs.
Your needs are legitimate.
Your mother's needs are bad.
Your needs are good.
Your mother's needs are bad.
And you say, but her feelings are what's important.
Yeah, I see that.
So, this is why you're not dating.
It always sounds like I'm wandering around nowhere, you know, when I'm not.
I'm not wandering around.
It's like, oh, why do we just want to date?
What are we talking about my origin story for, right?
But this is why you can't date, because in any conflict between you and a woman's feelings, what happens?
I lose.
Yeah, you defer to her, you've got to think about her, you've got to manage her and your feelings have to be abandoned.
A woman's illegitimate preferences, a woman's defensiveness is more important than your legitimate needs.
A woman's discomfort at her own bad decisions is infinitely more important than your need
for knowledge, safety, identity, security, and protection.
You can't be in a relationship with a woman, and I know this may be too far, so maybe we're on shaky ground here and I'm happy to withdraw if we've gone too far, if I've gone too far.
How can you be in a relationship with a woman if you have to self-erase in any conflict or contradiction between your preferences?
You just have to defer to her, you have to self-erase, you have to get rid of your own needs, you have to join her in shallow, booger-headed, nothing NPC land.
You've had a need for more real conversations with your mother for at least a decade, right?
Yeah.
And you've not been able to get those needs satisfied at all.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah, so should I push more with it?
Try to get a resolution?
Now we're jumping straight to solutions.
I'm sorry, everyone's so predictable.
So we're trying to get to an insight here, right?
To a connection.
And you're trying to jump over the connection into action.
Which everybody does.
I've watched your shows for so many years, it's like, oh... I know!
I was like, I'll never do that!
Yeah, how can he not see that?
But it's like, goddammit, I fell for it.
No, but you gotta, so the reason, you're trying to avoid the connection by jumping into action, right?
And listen, as man-to-man, we're action-oriented, I get all of that.
But we're right down at the center of why you're not dating.
I'll lay it out a little more, okay?
If that's alright.
Okay.
A quality woman will evaluate you very quickly.
Women are designed to evaluate men, right?
We could not have evolved if women could not evaluate men.
This is why women who say, I had no idea, I just, come on, come on.
I mean, to me, a woman saying, I had no idea about the quality of the man I raw-dogged it with, is the equivalent of some teenage boy saying, no, I never think about sex.
Like, come on.
I mean, don't even.
It's a joke, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, that's so pretentious and so false.
And if it were true, if you've got some boy of 18 who says, oh no, I never think about sex, you'd take him to the doctor, right?
Definitely.
Like, that's something wrong here.
Yeah.
Something's wrong.
So that would be a marker of like a significant, I don't know, whatever hormonal issue or whatever it might be.
I'm no doctor, right?
But you would... a young man with no sex drive, that would be, I think, an indication that
there was a significant medical issue.
I think.
Definitely.
But you wouldn't say, yeah, no, I get that.
That makes sense.
So a woman who says, I had no way of evaluating the man who impregnated me.
I don't, I mean, it's absolutely false.
Unless she has some significant cognitive deficiency, which based upon your mother's success, she doesn't, right?
I forgot what the name of the principle is, but it's like, the most simplest solution is usually the truest.
Do you know what I'm talking about?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do not multiply answers unnecessarily, right?
So it's like, it's probably, I'll just say lust.
As to why she did what she did?
Yeah, but like... But lust generally doesn't last for three years.
I mean, he was her first, so maybe that's... Well, no, so if he was her first, then he would also have a pair bond unless he was, I mean, really detached emotionally.
So my guess would be that he was somewhat like her father, because she's not processed her inner life, it sounds like.
So, your father was somewhat like her father, but she got to get out of the house.
Because she had three years of evaluating the guy.
This wasn't a one-night stand or anything.
She had three years to evaluate the guy, or, I don't know, two years and change, before she got pregnant, right?
Yeah.
So, maybe there was lust, but I assume that, I mean, lust is a factor that evolution has figured into.
So, of course women have lust, and that's why their judgment is so acute, because the lust draws them to the man, but their judgment is like, because you understand, like if our ancestors had done what your mother did, we wouldn't be here.
because there's no way that like, I don't know, like primitive society, like way back like 10,000
years ago, 20,000 years ago, if women chose men who didn't pay a bond and provide for their
children, those women and those, certainly the children would probably die, and the woman
probably wouldn't reproduce because she'd be ostracized, because she would have wasted the
tribe's resources.
This idea that we're, what's the name for one man, one woman, couple?
Monogamy.
Yeah, I don't know if I fully believe that, that we're monogamous by nature.
Like, evidence suggests that we're polygamous, because, um, I don't have the studies on hand, but... No, no, listen, listen, no.
So, I'm no expert in this, but I can pretty much tell you the way it goes.
And maybe I'm wrong, I mean, maybe people, but the harsher the climate, The more monogamous the family structure.
Of course, right?
So yeah, you can be polygamous in a place where you can just reach into the ocean and get some fish and there's like fruit and coconuts falling from the trees and yeah, you can be polygamous because it's not hard to provide.
But where you've got winter and you need farming and there's long-distance hunting and there's all these kinds of challenges, then you need monogamy.
The one thing monogamy provides is stability to society, because if you have a bunch of single old men, like, with nothing to lose, they're going to start causing trouble.
So maybe that's why society... Well, no, no, no, because polygamy in a lot of primitive societies is kind of everybody sleeps with everybody.
So the young men aren't excluded and frustrated?
No.
Sorry, go ahead.
From the research I gathered, it's the top It's like apes, essentially.
The top men sleep with everybody, the bottom men get dominated by the alpha male, and then there's like a cycle of violence to overthrow the guy at the top, so you can become him.
Okay, got it.
Listen, I'm happy to be schooled, as you said, I'm far from an expert, but I do know that in a society where, this is the R versus K stuff, right?
So, in a society where a lot of skills need to be transferred from the father to the son, you need monogamy.
By skills, what do you mean by skills?
Like technical skills, like how to hunt, how to... Well, in particular, farming is a big deal for this, right?
Because farming can be super complicated, and farming is really, really challenging.
I don't know if you've ever worked on a farm, but it's pretty brutal, right?
It's a lot of manual labor, a lot of... Yeah, you're in the sun, yeah.
Yeah, you're in the sun, there's a lot of risks, there's a lot of predation, there's, you know, like the birds, the parasites, that you've got to store the grain, you've got to survive the winter, you've got to have enough food for the winter, so there's a lot of skill transfer.
It's not that complicated to climb a palm tree and get a coconut or whatever, right?
So, this is the case also with fishing in cold or challenging waters, or fishing in areas where the waters are frozen over.
You need a lot of skill and you need a lot of knowledge transfer, and knowledge transfer generally occurs much more in a monogamous society because they're your kids, they're your sons, and so you're going to invest in them.
Sorry, go ahead.
Well, the way a woman generally would circumvent this issue, right, of passing down the skills, in the Black Belt, we call it Beta Bucks.
So, you would cheat on the guy, cheat with the good-looking tall guy, and then the Beta Bucks is going to provide for that child, and he'll transfer the skills and knowledge to the giga-chatty kid.
Well, but the problem with that, of course, is that you go from a society where competence increases to a society where competence decreases, and then you get taken over by another society where the competence has increased.
Isn't that what's happening now?
Well, I know, but I'm talking about our evolution, not now.
Now we're in this completely artificial state of debt and welfare state and palimony and all of that, right?
So I'm not talking about now, but of course, if you say, well, The more successful male I will mate with, but then the knowledge transfer will occur from the less successful male, the knowledge transfer is going to decay.
And then you'll end up being taken over by a place where there's pair bonding and the knowledge transfer doesn't decay.
It's plausible.
It's plausible.
Just the genetic research shows that we have a lot more female ancestors than male.
So a lot less of our male ancestors reproduce.
But that also depends where you're looking.
I'm pretty sure that a Chinese peasant village from 2000 BC was probably pretty monogamous.
Same thing with Japan, because the knowledge transfer to farm rice is huge, right?
I'll try to find you the studies I was looking at, and I'll send them to you later, after the show, if I can find them.
That'd be okay.
Well, and listen, that's totally fine, and again, I'm no expert on this, so I'm happy to be schooled and to learn more about it.
It's just, even historically speaking, genetics matter more to women than skill, because genetics are guaranteed to be passed on.
Skill, there's a lot of luck involved there.
No, no, but genetics...
Genetics show up in the facial structures which people consider attractive, right?
But it's not just facial, though.
No, sorry, I know that.
So height is an indication, of course, of good hunting and good decision-making.
For a woman, slenderness in a situation of excess is a sign of self-discipline and therefore IQ, right?
So a good hip-to-waist ratio shows fertility.
So, in terms of quality, I mean, the reason why beauty is beauty is because it generally indicates symmetry, which indicates good genes.
Yeah, correct.
So, you're saying that they choose on lust, which indicates good genes.
But then they get the beta provider who, even if the woman's past fertility age, in order to get access to sex, he will pass resources to the woman's child, is that right?
Yes.
Well, I certainly know that, as my understanding is, in the Jewish community polygamy was not huge, and certainly in the Christian community it is pretty much frowned upon, right?
Yes, less so now, but we know that already.
Oh yeah, yeah, sure.
It's like upside-down world now.
So Betty, in evaluating your mother, and because Betty cares about you, Betty, in evaluating your mother, will say, this is a woman who really doesn't care that much for her son, because if she did, she'd do what was uncomfortable for her son's benefit, right?
Yes.
You know, if there was some new mom and she was like, oh, you know, my kid keeps wanting food at night, but I want to sleep in, so I'm just going to put him in a soundproof room and I'm going to, you know, because my comfort is more important than my son's comfort.
I mean, that would be kind of murderous, right?
Yeah.
Kid might not make it till morning, right?
Correct.
So, we understand that parenting involves doing things that are best for your kids, Despite your own discomfort, right?
Yeah, well, she would say that, oh, I did best what I could do in my situation.
Right.
And that would be... Like, this was the best option.
No, but that would be, now, you're just talking about yourself again, right?
How about you do what your kid needs, rather than what feels comfortable for you in the moment?
Of course, as a nurse, she doesn't sit there and say, well, you know, if you don't like needles, I won't take your blood.
Right?
Yeah.
I mean, as a nurse, she knows that discomfort is essential in health care, right?
Oh, I've got to do that spinal tap because it's really uncomfortable.
So she knows that discomfort is important, is essential.
So, you know, in saying she did the best she could with whatever the circumstances, it's like, well...
You can't give yourself excuses when you aggressively punished your child, right?
You can't say that as an adult, when you chose exactly the wrong man to be the father of your child, you can't say, well I should be totally excused for that, but then you punish your son.
That's why I was asking about the punishment scenario, right?
Because why didn't you say, well, whatever my son has done that's quote wrong, he's doing the best he can with the knowledge he had, right?
He's doing the best he can under the circumstances, right?
So you're saying you should not be held accountable for the most important decision you made as an adult, but your son should be punished for bad things he did when he was 5 or 10 or 12 or whatever, right?
Like that doesn't make any sense, right?
Nope.
I mean, you held an 8-year-old responsible.
You can't not hold a 20-year-old responsible.
I mean, come on, right?
If the 20-year-old is not responsible, for sure the 8-year-old is not responsible.
So, a quality woman's... Sorry, go ahead.
Can I say, like, the... Instead of, like, physical punishment, it'll be, like, more mental punishment.
Like, she will just flip out and be like, oh, leave me alone, get away from me, that type of stuff.
You didn't say that earlier that I could recall.
You did talk about being forced to stand with your face in the corner of a wall for an hour.
Yeah, that was younger.
Having your PSP taken away and things like that, but I don't remember your mom flipping out and demanding that you leave her alone.
Yeah, that came later, more like in a teenage... Oh, when she couldn't do the physical stuff, she did the mental and emotional stuff.
Oh yeah, that's a standard flip for women, and men too, I suppose.
So... Okay, so...
A quality woman is going to want to date you, and she is not going to want you to vanish when there's conflict and just appease her, right?
Do you know why?
Because if she could do that to me, that means my mother can do it to me as well?
Yeah, at least you can't be loyal to her, because that comes from your mother.
Right?
And so your loyalty is going to remain to your mother, and you won't be able to pair bond with her.
That's number one.
Number two, she knows that there's going to be conflict with you as a father and your children, and if you fade out, then you won't be available as any kind of authority figure for the children.
The children won't respect you, and therefore they'll be pretty wild, right?
And difficult.
And the third thing, of course, is that the reason why she fundamentally won't want you to fade out when there's conflict is because you're then treating her like mommy.
And quality people hate, hate, hate being put into the role of a prior abuser.
Yeah, nobody wants to micromanage anyone else.
No, it's not that.
It's deeper than that.
A woman who's sleeping with you never wants to be put into the mommy role.
That's weird.
No, it is.
But it's really, really important.
So if your mom doesn't negotiate with you and you have to defer to your mom, then if you defer to your wife, then you're putting your wife in the role of mommy.
And a quality woman will be revolted by that, repelled by that.
Do you see why, right?
Because if every conflict with your mom means you have to self-erase and surrender, and then you have a conflict with your girlfriend or wife, and you do the same thing, you're saying, oh, you're my mom.
I have to treat you like you're my mom.
I'm treating you like you are my mom.
You are my mom!
How much does a quality woman like being mom in the relationship?
Your mom.
My biggest fear in that situation, it's like, I don't like, I don't have that much leverage, right?
It's not like if I, if I stand my ground, she could leave and I'm fucked.
And do you know where that comes from?
Well, my mother, of course, but like... Your mom, when you had a conflict with her, she'd say, get lost, leave me alone, right?
Yeah, but what I'm saying, like, I don't have leverage, it's like, I'm not gonna say, okay, mom, I'll go get another mom, or something like that, right?
No, as a kid, I get that, but you're not a kid!
Right?
So, as a kid, you didn't have leverage, as an adult, you do?
I don't think I do, that's the problem.
No, you absolutely do!
I'm sorry you haven't had a man in your life to tell you this, but you absolutely do.
I mean, you have less leverage if you keep taking mommy's money, but you absolutely have leverage as an adult.
Tell me why you think you don't.
Maybe I'm wrong.
I mean, I'm happy to hear.
Maybe you need a kidney from her.
I don't know.
But why don't you have leverage as an adult?
Well, if I'm struggling to get a relationship right now, and like, yeah, I'll find one woman, right?
It's like, I don't want to go through that slog of trying to find somebody else.
Sorry, do you mean, I thought you meant you didn't have any leverage with your mother?
I mean both, with my mother and, like, with a future wife, or... Okay, can we please not put them in the same category when I just told you how revolting it is for a woman to be put in the same category as your mom?
Okay.
Okay.
Let's talk about your mom, right?
Because you were saying, I didn't have leverage, so I couldn't get a new mom, right?
And now suddenly you're blending in your girlfriend.
Like, don't do that.
I mean, the same principle applies to both of us.
No, no, no.
The same principle does not apply at all.
No, no, no, no, no.
Come on.
Because then you're saying, my girlfriend is my mommy.
You're exactly the same.
The same dynamics are at work.
I'm helpless with both of them.
I have no leverage with either of them.
Mommy and girlfriend are the same.
It sounds ridiculous when you put it.
Well, okay, so listen, as a kid, yeah, you had no leverage.
Of course, no kids do, right?
As you say, you can't go get a new mom, right?
And she can just choose to freeze you out, which is terrifying for children.
She can choose to neglect you or abandon you.
So yeah, as a kid, you had no leverage with your mother.
But why would you think that's true as an adult?
Well, from my history, my dating history, they're like their own.
It's like, if I get lucky enough to get a woman... I'm talking about your mom!
Why are you bringing girlfriends back in?
We just talked about this!
I'm talking about why don't you like, why do you think you don't have leverage with your mom?
And then you're like, well, been in my dating life.
And I'm like, stop that.
I'm talking about your mom.
We're not redirecting to your girlfriends.
Okay.
With my mom.
It's okay.
Thank you.
Stay with the mom.
Yeah.
Lending them up now.
Right.
Like she's the only family person I have here.
It's just, if I cut her out, it's going to be just me, myself.
And I, that seems kind of terrifying.
Okay, so you have no leverage, because if you have needs, your mother will... if you assert your needs, legitimate needs, like tell me how I came to be, tell me about dad, these are absolutely legitimate needs, which should be honored, right?
Now, if you have legitimate needs with your mother, and you pursue those needs, your mother will cut you off?
I just want to understand your thinking about this.
I'm not saying you're right or wrong.
I'm sure you're right.
It's your life, right?
But I just want to understand your thinking.
So if you say, no, mom, I absolutely need to, like, we're taking this... I mean, she's over right now, right?
So you can say, listen, we got to talk about dad.
Like, no, ifs, ands, or buts.
I just, I need to grill you for like three days straight about dad.
What's she going to do?
And if she tries to gaslight or I don't remember, it's like, no, come on, mom.
You have a great memory.
Stop lying.
Of course you remember.
The relationship would get worse then.
Okay, so what happens if you continue to assert your legitimate needs with your mother?
She would just shut down, just... Okay, what happens if you continue to assert and say, no, no, don't, come on, mom, I'm right here, snap back, snap back, I need to know these things.
You owe me this information, right?
You chose my father.
He's gone.
I need to know what happened.
You were unable to secure to me a quality stepfather, is that right?
Did your mom date during your childhood?
She did, right?
Yeah.
And what was your relationship like with the various men that came through your place?
I just saw them once or twice and then Common sense pleasantries, like, hello, how you doing?
How's your day?
Blah, blah, blah.
Nothing much.
Okay, so she did not work to secure for you a good stepfather?
Nope.
Okay, so your needs weren't being met again.
Because, you know, one thing that single moms need to do, if they want to be good moms, is secure a good stepfather for their kids.
Also giving you some siblings.
Or half-siblings might not have been the end of the world, because I'm sure there was a lot of solitude growing up.
So she was pursuing her needs for whatever she was attracted to, or money that she could get, or whatever, right?
She was pursuing her needs rather than what was good for you.
Yeah.
Okay.
So if you continue to pursue the information you need from your mother, what happens?
You say, oh, well, she has all these defenses, right?
Okay, well, what happens if you don't accept these defenses?
And if you say, Mom, it's tearing me apart that I don't know where I came from.
It's tearing me apart that I don't know what happened with you and Dad.
This is really painful for me.
Because, you know, she's all about alleviating pain.
As a nurse, I'm sure she's like, oh, it'll just be a little prick, or, oh, I'm gonna hear, here's your morphine button, or whatever, right?
So, she's all, her whole job is to some degree alleviating pain, right?
So she knows all about that, she's got a great memory, and you're saying, it's really painful that I don't know these things, mom, I really need you to talk about them.
Then what?
Will she talk?
Will she do what you need?
Will she do the right thing?
Probably.
What do you think?
What's your estimate?
I hope she cracks, basically.
I hope she cracks.
But if she doesn't, it's going to be like a betrayal.
And then it's like, what do I do from there?
Well, then, see, you learn more about your father no matter what happens, right?
What do you mean by that?
Well, okay, so let's say she, as you say, cracks, and she tells you all about your father, then you learn a lot about your father, right?
Yep, yep.
If she doesn't crack, if she's still incredibly selfish and won't provide the man in her life with his legitimate needs met, then you know why your father left.
Ah, I see.
This is why it's important to do, in my view, because you get all the facts, right?
If she's completely selfish and won't give you what you desperately need, and is willing to sacrifice your legitimate needs on the altar of her own vanity and self-protection, that's why your dad left.
I see.
So, you understand him either way.
You have a point.
So, if you're in a relationship, so tell me the last time with your mother that you had a need that conflicted with her where she sacrificed her own preferences to meet your need.
Yeah, I'm not sure this will count, but like last week I commented, like I opened up, oh like I'm struggling with dating with her and then she's like, oh go get a sex doll with that girl.
Your mother's advice for you being short of a girlfriend was to buy a plastic woman and have sex with her?
Yeah, I was like, I told my mom, that's offensive, that's disgusting.
What kind of advice is this?
It's terrible advice.
And then she went, she told her boyfriend, So let's say you're dating a quality woman and she finds this out.
on Tinder, bro.
And I'm like, Jesus Christ.
So your mother's advice for your loneliness is to mate with rubber, or I don't know, silicon,
or whatever they're making these creepy things, to get a sex doll.
Yep.
So let's say you're dating a quality woman, and she finds this out.
Terrible.
How could she say that?
Like, what would she?
what would she do?
You can't fix her.
Oh, I...
You gotta separate from her, right?
Would a quality woman who's dating you want to get involved in this horror show?
Of course not.
So...
You say, well, if I don't have a relationship with my mother, I'm alone, right?
Yep.
Well, you don't have a relationship if you can't express your legitimate needs and have the person work to meet them.
So we just have this fake relationship right now?
Well, no, it's creepy.
Honestly, this is, I mean, this is straight up creepy.
Get a sex doll?
To your son who's having dating problems?
Is... I can't even tell you how... I just... I'd work very hard to denormalize the living crap out of this in your brain.
That's freaky and creepy and bizarre beyond... It was!
I was offended!
Like, what the hell are you... What the fuck are you talking about?
Right.
But it's like, back in my mind, it's like, oh, she just doesn't understand, like, the dating market from a male's perspective.
Oh, come on, man.
There's no excuse.
There's no excuse for this.
Yeah, even if it's true, like, she has no care into... She doesn't care about it, period.
And her boyfriend is, like, going Tinder.
Yeah.
Which tells you everything about their relationship.
Oh, it's, uh... He's... He's not with her right now, and...
When she would go out with like a male friend.
She needs his permission to like go there without me.
She's not with him, but she needs his permission to see a male friend.
Yeah, because you may be compressing this story a little bit.
So.
The her boyfriend is worried she I'm not, I don't know, like she might cheat or something, so she needs.
She would tell him, like, be open, I'm going to go out with a male friend.
And he was like, oh, bring your son with you.
And I would be like, I don't want to go there.
And then she'll need it.
Oh, sorry.
I thought you meant she's not with him like they broke up.
You mean when she's not with him and when she's with a male friend, he wants you along as a chaperone, right?
Pretty much.
Like, make sure nothing happens.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
Sorry.
I didn't quite follow.
And I'm like, yeah, this relationship is like, I asked, it's like, aren't you like adults?
Like, how can you not, how do you need like a babysitter with you?
Okay.
So it's like, it's not, it's, it's a disasterous relationship too.
Like he's this, this guy's been in my life for three years.
It's like, we don't know anything about each other.
Like, I don't even, like, I don't care about him.
He doesn't care about me.
Like whatever.
Right.
Right.
Like I, I'm kind of so old.
So call anyone a stepdad anyway.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Well, I mean, maybe if he was really, really helpful, he could earn the role over time, but he's not that, right?
Nah.
So your mother has bad judgment of men, right?
Yeah, that's definitely where the evidence was leading to.
I mean, as a pretty woman, certainly when she was younger, she could have gotten just about any man, right?
Yeah.
And this is the man she chose.
Terrible choices.
Right.
Right.
And it's like, is it all because of her past relationship with her father?
It's like, does she not do any self-examination of it?
Like, are you asking me why is your mom the way she is?
Yeah, it's like, there was no Stefan Molyneux back then, like there is now.
What are you saying?
Are you saying that there's no knowledge?
That self-honesty and curiosity is important?
I mean, Socrates 2,500 years ago said the unexamined life is not worth living.
Now, I have issues with the statement, but the idea that you should try and figure out why you do what you do, I mean, I didn't invent that, right?
My question is, why wouldn't she not do that?
Why would she choose ignorance over knowing the truth?
The whole point of free will is it's not causal.
Right?
So you're asking, why did she choose?
But the whole point of a choice is it's not causal.
Because if it's causal, it's not a choice.
Like if someone pushes you off a cliff and I say, well, why did you fall?
You say, well, it's gravity, man.
It wasn't a choice.
So why did your mother do what she did?
She chose to.
Because there's no causality.
The moment you can find an exception, there's no causality, right?
I mean, I had a bad enough childhood that I could have been a pretty terrible person, and I could have said, well, yes, but, you know, single mother, and violence, and mental illness, and institutionalization, and being alone, and, right?
I could say all of these things, right?
But I'm a good person, and I'm a good father.
So, history is not causal.
And your mother's certainly intelligent enough.
To have... to be able to read books and figure out what's going on in her life.
She could have gone to therapy, she could have... and she could have said, gee, you know, I'm a single mom, I'm going to read up on the risks and dangers of being a single mom so that I can be a better mother to my son, right?
I mean, the ego got in the way.
Well, that's another way of saying that it's causal.
Now the ego has eclipsed her, like the moon eclipses the sun, right?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because on Black Pill, like, everything to me is like an equation, like, what willed what into existence, and I know that's a problem.
Well, okay, so, yeah, the Black Pill, and it's funny because dominoes are black as well, right?
So, the Black Pill is the domino theory.
The domino theory, of course, is that events are determined, the origin of the universe started the dominoes in motion that had your mom do what she did, right?
Yeah, yeah.
And do you believe that that's true for men as well as women?
Or do men have free will and women are causal?
Because that's certainly some elements of the the manosphere that have that perspective.
It's either for both or neither, but it's... No, no, for you, I'm not saying logically or philosophically, I'm just saying for you, right?
Do you believe that you are causal in the way that you ascribe things to your mother?
Yeah, basically you would say I'm making up excuses for her.
No, no, hang on.
Are you causal?
Do you have choice in your life?
Or is your life going to be dictated by what happened in the past?
I have choice in what happens in my life.
Yeah, I mean, listen, were you at all ambivalent, or in other words, did you have both positive and negative feelings about calling me?
Only positive.
Only positive.
All right.
Good.
Cause a lot of people are like, Ooh, you know, I, I put this off for a while.
Right.
I emailed you earlier and then I never double checked the Skype.
If you messaged me back, I was like, I was an idiot.
Oh yeah.
It's kind of funny for me where I say to people, okay, give me a Skype ID and Skype allows you to schedule things.
So, and, and also Skype deals with time changes.
Like you could be in a totally opposite time zone for all I know.
Right.
So it's just way more efficient.
So I say, yeah, give me a Skype ID.
And then people are like, I never opened Skype.
And it's like, I, what?
Anyway.
I mean, here's a, here's a little legitimate criticism though.
It's it's so I'm not, I'm not sure if it's your producer or you who checks the Skype, but like, it took like, I think three days to get for me to get a response back.
So I felt like I got left on read or something.
Cause I did see that you did read it.
You just never responded.
Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of scheduling that goes on.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I appreciate the feedback.
That's a good feedback.
Now, so, you have choice, right?
Yes.
And does your mother have the same degree of choice?
Yes.
Okay, then why do you keep wanting causality for your mother's behavior?
It's to rationalize it, to make myself feel better about her.
Which I know isn't the right thing to do.
Because I'm taking away her agency.
Let me ask it a different way.
Who benefits from you giving your mother excuses?
Her.
Right, so her.
Do you benefit from giving your mother excuses?
No.
What does it cost you to give your mother excuses?
Short-term, short-term pain, but long-term happiness.
Like it would be really painful, like if she actually just ignores my inquiry, but in the long-term I'll, I can move on with my life from that.
That's a lovely generic response.
More specifically, what does it cost you to excuse female bad behavior?
What does it cost you in the short run and the long run in detail?
I mean, I want to say nothing, but you want more than that.
Like, I need to overcome myself in this situation, right?
I need to overcome my own fear of getting rejected by my mother.
Boy, I'm talking to mom again.
Okay.
Do you like it when people treat you like you're far younger than you actually are?
It's funny.
My mom does that all the time.
I'm sure she does.
Yeah.
Do you like it?
No.
I mean, it's almost like she said, you said, I'm having this huge problem.
And she said, play with dolls.
Talk about infantilizing, right?
Okay.
So you don't like it.
Right.
I remember when I was a kid, there's a phrase that used to just bug the crap out of me.
Right.
I'd be upset about something, and people would say, oh, he's had a big day, he's been very stimulated, right?
Yeah, that's very patronizing.
It's very patronizing, and it's like, there's no legitimate emotion or things like that, right?
Yeah.
It's all just, well, you know, he's overtired, it's like, no, no, I'm upset about something, right?
How about you ask me that rather than make up some physical thing, right?
Yeah.
And it's also insulting because they're calling me a liar.
Like, if I'm upset about X, right, and then people say, when I was a kid, they'd say, oh, he's overtired, he's had a big day, or whatever, right?
They're taking it with your X. They'd say, well, I'm just making up that I'm upset about X, when in fact, I'm just tired, right?
Yeah.
Or, you know, when moms say to upset babies, oh, just fussy.
He's just fussing.
It's like, no, there could be some legitimate emotional thing that's going on for the baby or the toddler, but people make up all of this garbage all the time that completely delegitimizes the authenticity of other people's feelings.
Yeah.
So they'll try to make you crazy.
Like if you talk to your mom, she might say, well, where is this?
Where is this?
Where's all this coming from?
This doesn't make any sense.
Like you're crazy.
Like, well, this is out of nowhere.
It's like, it's not out of nowhere.
It's out of almost a quarter century of Soviet levels of silence.
Do we give excuses to babies and toddlers?
I think so.
Yeah, we do.
I think so.
I mean, if you have that famous scene from Patrick Swayze ad-libbed this in a pretty bad movie called City of God with Dom Puri, and he was changing the diaper of a baby, and the baby boy peed in his face, and he's like, hey, it's gonna be a fireman!
Good line.
But we don't, you know, we don't get mad at the baby for peeing when they're changing, right?
Of course not.
But of course, if someone pees in you as an adult, that's pretty, pretty egregious, right?
That's a kind of assault, right?
That would fight.
So, we give babies excuses.
when we give adults excuses we're treating them like they're babies
and if you sort of notice the defenses that your mom has They're all about helplessness.
I didn't know.
It was impossible to know.
I did the best I could with the knowledge I had.
He just changed.
I was helpless.
So she's playing baby!
So you don't hold her accountable.
She's your mother who's triggering your paternal instincts to hold babies unaccountable.
I definitely get that vibe.
And you can't be a father if your mother demands you treat her as your baby!
This is Strodinger's Feminist, right?
I'm a strong, independent woman.
Unless... I make a bad decision and then I'm a helpless victim of external forces.
She unironically said that once.
It made me so cringe inside.
She said what?
She said, I'm a strong, independent woman.
She said it once, but it was so cringe at the moment for me.
Right.
She was a strong, independent woman who can't answer basic questions her son needs to have about her life because it's too upsetting.
Yeah.
So she plays the baby while also demanding you treat her as an authority figure.
Am I wrong?
Correct.
Now.
If you can't... One of the ways we show significant contempt for people is to take away their agency.
Can you delve deeper into that?
Well... Or give me an example?
Contempt might not be the right word, but I think in the circumstances with functional adults, it is.
So, if somebody has a massive brain injury, and they're in a semi-vegetative state, we don't consider them lazy for not working, right?
Yep.
So, they have suffered to the point where they're like babies, right?
And so, we take care of them, we tend to them, and we don't judge them for not getting anything done with their lives, right?
Yep.
So we lower our expectations massively when that person doesn't have free will or moral agency.
And we do that out of love?
I'm sorry?
And we do that out of love and compassion?
I'm not sure exactly why people would do that.
attachment or obligation.
It could be the history of prior love, like this is a much beloved family member who, you know, out of respect for what they did in the past.
I mean, it's a wide variety.
You can't love the vegetative person in the vegetative state.
Because our love is our involuntary response to virtue, if we're virtuous.
And the person, through no fault of his or her own, we assume, is in a semi-vegetative state, and therefore can't act in a moral manner, and therefore can't be loved in that way.
But there may be a history of prior attachment and so on.
Of course, we love babies, though babies are not moral, so, I mean, we attach to them and all of that.
So, that's a complicated question.
But, for sure, we massively lower our expectations, right?
Yep.
Now, if someone is a hyper-functional adult, as your mother is, right?
A very successful career woman.
If somebody's a hyper-functional adult, but we say they have no free will, no choice, no real capacity for virtue, and are helpless pawns of the distant past, We're saying you are unable to change.
You don't have free will even though you are a highly competent person quite the opposite of being in a semi-vegetative state.
And so we're holding that person in contempt because we're saying I'm treating you as a toddler though you are in fact a highly intelligent adult.
Now we're saying you can't improve you can't change
you can't grow, you can't listen and that's treating someone with contempt
Thank you.
You're a highly functional, highly intelligent adult, but I'm not going to hold you accountable for anything, because I believe that you can never ever change for the better, that you can never, even though you have the perfect capacity to take responsibility, you never will.
See, if you truly love people, if you truly love people, you fight to remind them of their free will and responsibility all the time.
Because that's treating them with respect.
And they do the same with you.
I mean, the coach who says you can do better is the coach who's treating you with respect.
The coach who says you can't improve Yeah, he doesn't like you.
He doesn't want to see you go above your station.
Yep.
He doesn't like you, doesn't want to see you go above your station.
He's sabotaging you, right?
So if you can do better and your coach says, no, you've peaked, you'll never be any better
than you are.
Don't even try, you're just wasting your time, right?
And you could do better.
He's sabotaging you, right?
So when you don't hold your mother accountable, you're sabotaging her.
you When you pretend that she is a middle-aged, highly competent baby, you're acting in a very destructive manner towards her.
That's bad for your conscience.
You know, I hold people in my life accountable for their actions.
They hold me accountable for my actions.
I give everyone in my life free will.
They give everyone... Everyone gives me free will.
And of course, the purpose of parenting is to progressively remove... Excuses!
Right?
So they have all the excuses when they're babies.
By the time they're 18, they should have no excuses.
You're just like layers of an onion, just peeling off excuses, right?
Yeah.
And your mother's made it to middle age in diapers.
Somehow.
Well no, that's her demand.
Her demand, if I understand this correctly, and obviously you know the relationship infinitely better than I do, so tell me if I'm astray, if you hold me accountable, there won't be a relationship.
And my guess is, that's what happened to your dad.
He tried to hold her accountable for something, and she just fought him tooth and nail.
Now, again, if we're looking at causality, like, what could be the causality is, and this doesn't mean she has no free will, but my guess is that when she was a kid, your mom... Sorry, one sec, I just need to clear my throat.
When your mom was a kid, her father, who was drunk and abusive, would torture her with accountability.
In other words, when she wasn't responsible for things, he would hold her responsible and blame her for that.
Right?
So, you know, the typical example is the kid is carrying something heavy, drops it, and it smashes.
It's an accident, right?
Kids are learning, right?
And, I mean, it happens to adults even, right?
But then she would be blamed for something that was an accident, and so for her, accountability meant vicious punishment.
So she avoids accountability because she was punished with false accountability as a child.
Right?
You made me hit you by being bad, right?
Like, when I asked about punishment, you said, well, I was a good kid.
Like you were being punished for being bad.
Kids aren't punished for being bad.
So I would imagine that your mother was held accountable or blamed for things that weren't
her fault and so she's like, oh, so accountability is pain.
Accountability is unjust punishment.
And so she resists accountability Because she was falsely punished for accountability when she was a kid.
But the problem, of course, is that if you avoid accountability because you were punished
for fake accountability as a kid, you end up doing bad things as an adult because you
have all these excuses.
And when you have excuses, you do bad things.
you And so the unjust punishment for accidental things when you
were a kid becomes just criticism of yourself as an adult.
Can you repeat that?
So == Notes
you Let's say that... I mean, I was punished for things that weren't my fault as a kid, right?
And so, whenever somebody would say, you're responsible, you're accountable, that would be prior to getting hit.
So, accountability then gets trained to you to equal punishment, and just as you avoid punishment, thus do you also avoid accountability.
So, the kid who is beaten for sneaking food, if the parent says, did you sneak food?
Food's missing!
What's he gonna say?
Nope!
Because accountability is punishment.
Self-ownership and responsibility is punishment.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
Makes sense.
Are you sure?
You sound persistent.
I mean, in my head, it's not accountability, it's unjust accountability.
Well, I get that, but the kid did steal the food.
He did sneak the food, right?
Yeah.
It's not fair.
It's absolutely not fair.
Of course it's not fair, but that's why I keep saying unjust accountability, right?
So, when the parent says, you're responsible, They'll punish you often, right?
So, if you come home with a bad grade, you'll get punished because you're responsible for the bad grade, right?
So, accountability is attached to children in order to punish them.
Now, sometimes to praise them, you come home with a good grade, they might say good job or whatever, right?
But accountability in dysfunctional households equals punishment.
So, kids learn to avoid accountability.
They make up lies, they blame others, they say, I wasn't here, I didn't do it, I would never, you know, whatever, right?
So, they avoid accountability because accountability equals punishment.
In other words, they're trained to avoid accountability because accountability, nine times out of ten, leads to abuse.
Does this make sense?
Yeah.
Every time I would bring up like, oh, mom, you hit me when I was a kid, she'd be like, oh, what are you talking about?
Like, you're fine.
I really did it.
She won't take accountability.
Now, if a kid doesn't take accountability or avoids accountability because they're punished for it as a kid, then they grow up not taking accountability.
And your mother won't take accountability for any deficiencies in her personal life.
I'm sure she takes accountability for deficiencies in her professional life, otherwise she wouldn't be successful, right?
Yeah.
But in her personal life she won't take any accountability, and that means she gives herself excuses, and that means she does bad things that she should be held accountable for.
So in other words, you're trained to avoid accountability as a child, and then as an adult you avoid accountability because it's incredibly painful, but that means you give yourself excuses, which means you give yourself permission, which means you do bad things you should be held accountable for.
That's how the bad childhood gets you.
Is that you had legitimate avoidance of accountability as a kid, because accountability meant punishment, but you carry that habit into adulthood and you avoid accountability, you avoid feedback, you avoid responsibility, you avoid improvement.
But if you avoid accountability as an adult, you can never be close to anyone.
Because, in every relationship, we do things that occasionally will hurt the other person.
And they need to be able to tell us.
If you avoid accountability, you can't be close to people.
Because you can't ever accept responsibility for anything you've ever done with them.
Other than, you know, maybe some positive characteristics, whatever, right?
But you can't be close to people if you can't handle criticism.
You can't be close to people, because you're always being defensive.
And every time somebody has something that they don't like about what you did, you'll just brush them off.
You'll, you'll just... Right, this is what, when you were a kid, you would have some criticism of your mom, which you'd say, get lost, go away, don't talk to me.
But if you can't be self-critical, if you can't handle criticism, you can't be close to people.
That's the price.
I mean, I get the benefit, of avoiding criticism.
Yeah, you get to avoid the short-term discomfort of looking in the mirror and saying, gee, I did something not particularly nice or but not particularly good or maybe even bad or whatever, right?
I understand the positive for sure.
But the negatives are you can't be close to people.
And because you reject any feedback or criticism, you continue to do bad things and the deficit accumulates.
And because the deficit accumulates, eventually you end up with what?
A completely fucking shallow relationship.
Because you can't talk about anything real.
You can't talk about anything deep.
You can't talk about anything meaningful.
Because by avoiding accountability, you continue to do bad things.
Those bad things accumulate to the point where you can't talk about anything deep.
Because you're holding back this giant dam of the wrong things you've done by avoiding accountability, which was understandable as a kid, but as toxic as an adult.
And this is why you can't talk about anything meaningful with your mom.
Hopefully this makes some sense.
It makes sense, and this applies to me and my mother.
All right, I know you weren't listening there, right?
Because I said, and this is why you can't talk about anything with your mom.
And then you said, so this applies to me and my mom?
No, no.
I mean, if it applies to my mother, wouldn't that apply to me as well?
What do you mean?
So she's not holding accountability and I'm also letting her do it.
Am I giving myself the same excuse?
Well, You are looking for structural issues as to why you can't date.
Correct.
Right?
So, what is that, other than trying to hold systems or society responsible for things that are more under your control than you believe?
I mean, hear me out on this.
What if it's me on the issue?
I'm not tall enough, I'm not good-looking enough, or my conversation skills may be lacking.
Because, now, what plastic surgery did you get?
Rhinoplasty.
Okay.
I mean, that's pretty common, right?
That's not exactly plastic surgery, like a nose job.
Okay, right now, um Like many people are in relationships
Yeah, a lot of them are dysfunctional, but, like, I can't even get that.
Right.
I can't even get a dysfunctional relationship.
Like, what the hell?
What's wrong with me?
And everything you talk about leads away from your mother.
Yeah.
I mean, maybe your nose was a little too big.
Although, I've known big-nosed people who get married, but okay, let's say maybe your nose was a little too big, okay?
So what you're saying is, I won't date a woman.
Sorry, the reason I'm not dating a woman is women are so shallow that it's my nose that's driving them away.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So if a woman won't date you because your nose was a little too big, And you get that woman because your nose is a little smaller.
Is that the kind of woman you want to get?
A woman who doesn't look for your qualities of character.
She doesn't look for your virtues.
She doesn't look for your fitness as a husband and a father.
She doesn't look for your loyalty, your integrity.
She's like, oh, nose 4% too big, not dating, not dating.
Is that who you want?
Are you crazy?
Of course not.
Of course not, but like, if I'm better looking... That's a form of false advertising, because you still have the jeans for the big nose!
Yeah, but it's better than nothing.
Right?
Okay.
Better than nothing.
So you're saying without the smaller nose, you're nothing?
My odds of being nothing are lesser.
Or ending up with nothing.
Okay.
Do you think that one of the reasons why women aren't dating you is either because your nose was slightly too big or because you're enmeshed in some weird mommy-girlfriend thing where you don't hold women accountable because your mom won't take any responsibility?
I mean, the thing is, like, I rarely... Like, I talk to some girls, but, like, it's never about family, especially that deep.
Like... Okay, give me a...
Give me an exchange.
If you have one, on your phone, even better.
Don't obviously read out names, but what kind of exchanges do you have with women?
Oh shit.
Um.
Give me a sec.
Um.
Oh shit.
I'm not going to read out the whole thing.
I'll just give you the general gist.
So it's like this girl is back in the old country where I'm from
And we're just talking about like education.
Her mother passed away early.
We talked about that a lot.
Again, she never talked about my family.
Just about her studies.
She's getting a driver's license.
Talked about some hobby stuff.
She was showing me like On Google Maps, you can't see this, but on a website in that country, like she showed me, oh, this is the street you grew up on because I was asking for it.
Stuff like that.
I'm like, oh, how does how does the area look like now?
Nothing too deep.
If that's what you're looking for.
OK, what's the deepest thing you talk about?
It's her mother.
Like what she died from.
Like how much he misses her, that type of stuff.
Okay, thanks for responding to her.
What's the deepest thing you talk about?
That I feel like around my mother, like I can't be myself.
Oh, so you told her that around your mother you can't be yourself?
Yeah.
Okay.
And how did she respond to that?
She said But she can't relate
you Sorry, she can't relate?
Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, her mother's dead, right?
Yeah, but even before that, she never, it was never like that.
Actually, uh, she brought, she brought up her father and her father's, uh, he gets drunk a lot.
Like she hates living with him.
Oh gosh.
She, she also moved out.
So we went into that.
Like, uh, sorry, I assume that the conversation has not led to dating plans.
If I was there, it would.
But because I'm overseas, no it didn't.
So why, sorry, why are you engaging with a woman you can't date?
I can't... I can't get a girlfriend!
I'm throwing heart, mind, body and soul into a relationship with a woman on the other side of the world that I can't date!
I'm not, I want to get a job desperately.
I keep applying for jobs as doctors when I'm not a doctor.
I don't know what's happening.
I mean, this was after, um, like I tried here and it just fails.
I'm like, oh, let's see how it's going to go over there.
Like it went way better.
Look, it, it could, I mean, obviously further apart romances have happened, right?
Yeah.
So how long have you been chatting with this, uh, young woman?
Uh, three years.
Three years?!
It's on and off, it's not like every day we're texting each other.
Three years?!
Yeah.
And, have you made any plans to meet, or?
She's married now.
But we're just friends now.
Oh god.
We're, like, it's... Okay, so, I guess I should have been a little more fucking clear.
I'm talking about text messages Not with married women on the other side of the world!
No, but when we started, she wasn't married.
Okay, when did- when in the conversation did you tell her you can't be yourself around your mother?
Uh, it's at the- like a year, one and a half.
And she wasn't married then?
No.
Right.
And she said she couldn't relate?
Yeah.
Right.
Which means she makes it about herself, rather than you, right?
Now when you say, I can't be myself around my mother, what do you think women hear from that?
Like weak beta male?
Well, mommy runs things.
Mom's in charge.
I have no authority.
I have no reciprocity.
I do what she wants.
She says jump.
I say how high.
Mommy's in charge.
I'm a mama's boy.
Now, come on, man.
You've been around the manosphere long enough to know.
Do women of quality want to date mama's boys?
Of course not.
Of course not.
So what you're saying to her is I I can't have any standards or values that my mother doesn't approve of in the presence of my mother.
My mother's clingy.
She dominates me.
She dictates to me.
I obey.
Which means, if mommy doesn't like you, you're gone.
If the bossy mom doesn't like you, the potential girlfriend, it's not going to work out because mom's going to express
her disapproval and I can't be myself around my mother so I'll abandon you for the sake of mommy.
I'm I can't pair bond, because my mom's a bossy... whatever you want to say.
Right?
My mom is... and I can't stand up to her, I can't be myself around her, I can't have any values that contradict with mommy.
So I can't pair bond because if mommy doesn't approve of some girl I'm dating, I'm going to find some way to get out of the relationship.
Could be sabotage, could be any number of things, right?
Or, or best case scenario, I end up in a pitched battle with this guy's mom, but she's got 23 years experience dominating him and I don't.
So who's going to win?
Probably her.
Well, I mean, who's going to take that risk?
Yeah, nobody.
Nobody.
Do you think it's really the size of your nose?
Or the fact that you say stuff like that to women?
This is the only woman I ever told this to, Stefan.
You don't think women... What did we just say earlier?
Women are incredibly attuned to the quality of potential partners.
You say that, but they're like, I look at reality.
I'm like, no, like they're sleeping around.
No, they're attuned.
It's just that their consequences are removed.
Right.
I mean, human beings are attuned to plan for winter, but if you've got a zillion dollars, you don't need to.
So you don't, right.
Doesn't mean that we don't have those instincts.
It just means that they don't play because there's an excess of resources, which is the welfare state and whatever.
Right.
So it's, it's like, no, no, I'm not going into social stuff.
I'm not doing it.
If you eliminate all this crap in your life and you still can't get a date, call me back, we'll talk about social stuff.
But you're trying to take your free will and what you can actually do something about and you're trying to put it onto these impersonal socio-economic factors that you can't do anything about.
You're trying to remove from yourself free will and I don't dislike you, I don't have contempt for you, I'm enjoying the conversation, I respect you, so I'm not going to let you do it.
Remember I said to people in my life, we don't allow causality to overcome the potential for virtue?
Yeah, 107% responsibility.
So no, I'm not gonna give you it's socioeconomic when you allow your mother to dominate your
view of women.
So I need to...
Can we do...
Now you're going straight into action, as people always do.
Here's an in-slide.
What do I do?
Here's another in-slide.
Okay, but what do I do?
So I'm supposed to do this, do that?
I don't know!
It's my mathematical e-brain.
No, it's no, don't give yourself that either.
Goddammit, I can't have nothing.
Nope, you can't have anything but free will here.
Sorry, buddy.
If it's any consolation, I have the same with myself and it's annoying to me too.
So, uh, if that's any consolation.
I just want to punch a wall.
I know, I know.
So listen, that's really important.
So now you're getting some aggression because I'm taking away excuses.
So you're having a masculine reaction, punch a wall, when I take away excuses.
Good.
We're men.
We don't get excuses.
Yep.
And we shouldn't give ourselves excuses.
I mean, you know that, right?
Of course.
Part of this whole black pill stuff is treating men like drunks and children and idiot women.
Here's all the excuses.
Oh, great.
Now I get paralysis.
Whereas I take away the excuses.
You feel the surge of energy and aggression, right?
Yeah, it's time to get mad.
It's time to get mad.
Your mother did you some real wrong.
She chose the wrong guy for your father.
She took you away from him without you wanting to.
That's why I asked earlier, did you want to leave your native country?
She took you to a new country, a new culture, a new language.
She didn't work to help you integrate as far as I can tell.
I have not integrated at all.
Okay.
So she didn't give you advice.
She didn't help you with the transition.
So she successfully transitioned to the new culture, but it's pretty tough for a kid of eight to do that.
And she didn't help you with that.
She doesn't listen.
She rules over and denies and gets upset and angry at your legitimate requests for essential information.
She's doing you some wrong.
I'm not saying she's just a terrible person, of course, but she's doing you some wrong.
And you feel helpless about that.
Correct.
You're not.
I'm not helpless.
You're not helpless.
Do we lower our standards?
This is a foundational question of philosophy, just so you know, like this is why these conversations are still so great after 17 or 18 years.
It's a foundational question of philosophy.
Do we lower our standards to our historical relationships, or do we raise our standards no matter what?
Right?
No matter what.
Do we lower our standards?
And listen, most people do.
If they're surrounded by crappy people, they just lower their standards.
Yep.
Philosophy says standards exist independent of history, standards exist independent of family structures, standards exist independent of the accidents of birth.
I mean, if you're born a slave, you've got to lower your standards, because you're a slave, and you're probably going to live and die a slave, right?
Yeah.
The question is...
Do you lower your standards?
to accommodate your mother or do you raise your standards and see who meets
them? Who rises to meet them? I've got to raise my standards.
Well you don't have to. Most people go through life collapsing their standards
to accommodate the trash planet they may have been born into.
Yeah but I don't want to be just another dust to history just letting the wind
blow wherever it goes.
Yeah, you want to have free will.
Okay, free will means having standards.
Correct.
So, if your mother was just some woman you met at a dinner party, how close would you be?
Uh, distant.
I mean, you might be interested a little bit in her professional life or whatever, right?
Yeah, yeah.
But like, personally, I wouldn't pursue anything.
Right.
So, your mother... This is really important, man.
Your mother has not earned your love or allegiance, if I understand the situation correctly.
You got it.
Okay.
So, do you love your mother?
No.
Can you say to your mother, listen, this is really tragic.
I have big problems.
With how I was raised.
I have big problems with our current relationship.
It's been haunting my brain like 10,000 ghosts that you told me to get a sex doll because I was having trouble dating.
We've... I find myself not happy when the phone rings and I see that it's you.
I find myself not wanting to see you.
This is really tragic.
What can we do?
I find myself breaking orbit and getting further away.
And I'm scared about that.
It's unpleasant.
But that's what's happening.
And what would your mom say if you brought something up like that?
I've asked her, we should go get therapy because we have this very strange relationship.
And she just said, oh, what are you talking about?
Everything's fine.
Okay, so she would then say, so this is pure selfishness, right?
Yeah.
I think everything's fine in the relationship, therefore everything is fine.
Yeah.
But a relationship, by definition, is two people, right?
Yeah.
I mean, can you imagine if you get a bad meal at a restaurant, it's cold and it's the wrong order, and the manager comes over and says, how was your experience?
And you say, it's terrible.
And he says, no, it wasn't.
And you say, no, no, it was the wrong order.
My food was cold.
And he said, no, it wasn't.
The relationship is fine.
You paid your bill, didn't you?
So the relationship is fine.
You didn't have a problem.
There's no issue.
I don't like, no.
Would that not feel like you were talking to a crazy person?
Yeah.
I want to make a complaint.
No, you don't.
There's nothing wrong.
Do you understand that would be insane?
Yeah.
Manipulative, evil.
Well, it's, I mean, or even worse, just completely blankly selfish.
Because the manager of the restaurant is like, you paid your bill, so I'm happy, and if I'm happy, the relationship is good.
The fact that you got wrong, bad, cold food, it doesn't even register.
I got paid, you paid your hundred bucks for the dinner, so the relationship is fine.
There's not a problem.
I don't understand why there's a problem because I got my hundred dollars.
I mean, it could be even worse than malevolent.
It could be like this blank prime primitive NPC ignorance that there even is supposed to be somebody else in the relationship who has concerns.
I want to make a complaint.
No, you don't.
There's no problem.
I got paid.
There's no problem.
No, but I didn't get what I ordered.
I didn't get what I wanted.
No, no, no.
I don't know where you're coming from.
I got paid.
The relationship is great.
No, no, no.
I didn't get the food I wanted.
And it was cold.
And it was bad.
No, no, no.
I got paid.
So the relationship is great.
You understand?
That would be insane and that restaurant would not last, right?
Yeah.
Totally.
I'm unhappy.
No, you're not.
Why not?
Because I'm happy.
I'm happy to not talk about anything deep.
Therefore, you must be happy.
I'm not happy.
Yeah, you are.
Come on.
There's nothing wrong with our relationship because it's working for me.
There's nothing wrong with our relationship because it's working for me.
I mean, it's the government, right?
I don't want to... I have a complaint.
I know you don't.
I got my taxes from you.
It's all working fine for me, right?
Do you...
Are you supposed to have a voice in a relationship?
Are you supposed to have preferences?
Are people supposed to accommodate you in a relationship?
Yeah, of course.
Yes, of course.
Of course.
Right.
Is your mother doing that?
No, quite the opposite.
She's telling you that you're wrong.
If you say you're unhappy, you misinterpreted things, you misremember things.
I never did that.
It wasn't that much.
You turned out fine.
I did the best I could.
There was no problem.
I couldn't have known your father just turned right.
She's just talking to her own conscience, she's not even talking to you, right?
Yeah, it's like I don't exist.
Right.
Right.
Because, like, I've been thinking about this, I'm like... And if you can't exist in the presence of a woman like your mother, you can't really exist with other people, and particularly women, right?
And if you can't exist with other women, how can you have very much desire?
Right, punch the wall and get the girl comes from the same place, right?
So who's the girl you've most wanted to date in your life?
You mean like, um...
The woman you've been most passionate for, the woman you've just been desperate to
date, would do anything, bear any burden, climb every tree, swim every ocean?
Has there been one?
Not really.
Right, why not?
Yeah, that I have like a crush, yeah, but like...
No, no, no, like someone you're like, I gotta get her!
No, never.
Well, why not?
Like, I don't think I'm good enough?
That's just an NPC answer, man.
You gotta do better than that.
I could even hear the, I'll just make up some shit and throw it at Steph and see if it sticks.
I could hear that in your voice, man.
Uh, not good enough?
Okay, okay, okay.
Okay, so how about you don't NPC me?
That... That passion... Because that's the basis of pair bonding.
Yeah, it was... It doesn't mean you get the girl, but at least the girl knows that you're really passionate about her, which is something that makes her safe to... Like, the pair bonding potential is there, right?
Yeah.
Or you, like, play it cool and kinda distant?
Yeah, but, like, that doesn't work.
No.
You're not, you're not a GigaChad.
You can't do that.
I want to... I want to get the girl.
Well, no, but see, the GigaChad doesn't get the girl either.
He just gets her body.
I mean, the giga-chad of, like, a lot of sex, the huberman, or whatever, right?
Like, the lot of sex guy?
It's like, he doesn't get love.
He doesn't get the girl.
Well, like, he chooses it to be that way, though.
He's in power there.
Oh, so he chooses his life, but you're a victim of having too big a nose.
Well, it's like, I'd rather be- He has choice!
But you don't.
What if being the Giga Chad is just accepting that you have choice?
And you choose quality, not just sex.
you I mean, everybody has choice, of course, but as a
In my, uh, beginning question, like my beginning statement says, uh, our genetics, uh, like we, we don't have none of it's equal.
So, I mean, it's the blinding insight that some people are more physically attractive than others.
It doesn't have to be attraction only.
For example, if you're like five, three, right?
Like you could, you could want to be an NBA star all you want.
Not going to happen.
Right.
So, what does being an NBA star have to do with living a quality, virtuous life?
Well, it's easier to live a quality, virtuous life when you have options.
Why would you say that?
Do you think that the GigaChads are living a quality, virtuous life by banging everything with a pulse?
Do you not think that they're lured into the Satanism of the flesh?
That they are having false gods before virtue called vagina?
Oh, you envy them, right?
You could say that.
Right.
So, envy is the mark of the beta, right?
I mean, yeah, if you're not GigaChad, you're beta.
Well, I don't know.
It's that simple.
There's probably more layers, but...
Look, I understand it.
Like, you know, when I was losing my hair, I had friends who had, like, fantastic hair, right?
And I would envy that, right?
I get that.
I understand that.
But then, I mean, you have to make a choice, right?
I mean, I'm either going to get hair transplants, or I'm going to develop other qualities to compensate.
Qualities such as being very fit, having good teeth, Skincare regimen, exercise, sunshine, being well-read, a great conversationalist, working to be funnier and more spontaneous.
So, you can sit in this sort of oily pit of envy, or you can say, yeah, other people have some advantages, big fucking whoop.
Yeah, and I try to remedy it.
Well, I understand that.
What do you mean with the nose?
Gym, skincare, like, styling.
Like, it's not like I just said there, oh, I'm a loser, that's it.
That's the end of me.
Okay.
And how long, you've been listening to this show for quite some time, right?
Yeah.
And there's nothing wrong, obviously, the gym and the healthcare and the, sorry, the skincare and all of that.
Good stuff, man.
Good for you, right?
But this is a show of philosophy, not personal appearance, right?
Yeah.
So, have you been lying to your mother?
Kind of, right?
Because you're not telling her how unhappy you are, you're not telling her how she's not meeting your needs, you're not telling her of the things you do need and saying that it's really, really important, right?
Yeah.
And I'm not saying you're some big liar, but there has been falsehood in your relationship with your mother, right?
Which I understand, and I sympathize with.
This is how you were raised, and it's a survival strategy, so I'm not blaming you for any of this.
But it is kind of a fact, is it not?
Yeah.
Okay.
Do you think that women have evolved to suss out liars?
Um...
Not how they are now, but do you think...
A man who claimed to love them, who then impregnated them and ran away, would often be a death sentence for the child, if not the mother, right?
But if it was like that in the past, then that gene should have been bred out of existence.
But no, it's prevalent.
It's extremely prevalent.
No, we have adaptability, right?
We're not genetic-based life forms.
So, women have still evolved to figure out who a liar is, but because of the current political and economic circumstances, they don't particularly care.
It's like, a woman's gonna let a good-looking guy get away with lies.
Yeah, if you're less than a good-looking guy, yeah, she'll call you out on it.
Okay.
You'll be held to a higher standard.
You say a woman is gonna let a good-looking guy get away with lies, but they still can't have a relationship.
Because it's mutual contempt based upon shallow lust masquerading as something more.
Yeah, it's gonna be a shallow relationship.
Okay.
So women have evolved to figure out if a man is lying.
And men have evolved to figure out if a woman is crazy.
You know, the hot crazy matrix, blah, blah, blah, right?
Now, we can say, well, based upon the current circumstances and, you know, the fact that women are all ANCAP when it comes to sex and all communists when it comes to income redistribution.
So we've got all of this distorted systems going on, but women still, I mean, men know when a woman's crazy and women know when a man is lying.
Now, they can choose to ignore this because it doesn't matter as much in the short run because of these weird incentives that we've got going on in the world, but that's the reality.
So, if you lie in your primary relationship which you have, which is with your mother, If you misrepresent, if you don't have needs, if you appease, if you, whatever, treat her as a toddler and lower your expectations and all of that, women are aware of that from like the third text you have.
I don't know how it happens, because I'm not a woman, but it happens.
Now, and obviously I'm pushing 60, I've known enough women over the course of my life to
know just how incredible their instincts are, right?
Now, if you want to get a girlfriend who's quality, right?
You don't just want a girlfriend who's going to break your heart and give you an STD and get pregnant and accuse you of misconduct like you want a quality woman, right?
Yep.
If you're lying in your primary relationship, can you get a quality woman based on your integrity?
No.
No?
Is that anything to do with the size of your nose?
Of course not, but like, wouldn't you say... You have worked your long nose into lying like Pinocchio?
This is really subtle, allegorical workshop here.
Anyway, sorry, go on.
Wouldn't you say that there needs to be some form of attraction?
Like, in order for her to meet you, to see you, to feel your brain out, she needs to be somewhat attracted to you.
Like, you didn't meet your wife, like, you guys didn't see each other, of course you saw each other first, then you agreed on a date, etc.
So attraction would help that anyway to facilitate that date.
No, but we aren't each other's physical types.
The attraction was about the conversation.
Now, I mean, of course, we've grown into, you know, healthy marital lust and all of that, but I didn't look at her and say, what a knockout.
She was not my particular type, although she's lovely.
So the attraction was based upon the quality of the conversation and the kindness and thoughtfulness that I got in her and she got in me.
So would you say that there would be no any disqualifiers physically for that date not to happen?
What do you mean?
Like if she had too big of a noise or her eyes were too far apart, that wouldn't matter?
Or she was bald, maybe.
Like you.
Okay, let's not get crazy here.
Um... No, I'm not sure what you mean.
If her nose was too big, would I have... I mean, the conversation was so great, she could have had three noses.
Honestly, I don't care.
And the conversation has remained fantastic for, like, 22 years.
I'm not marrying a nose, I'm marrying a soul.
I'm marrying a person.
And, you know, whatever looks is involved, What are you going to do with the last 30 years of your marriage from like 60 to 90, right?
If it's just looks.
It doesn't have to be all looks, but I think looks are definitely a part of the equation.
You can't be like a goblin, like three feet or... Okay, but see, you're just running to these ridiculous extremes, right?
Now, I wouldn't have married an obese woman.
Okay, boom!
An obese woman.
No, no, but obesity is controllable.
What if it's not controllable?
I wouldn't marry an obese woman because I'm a very active person, and I would want somebody who would be good with kids, and it's tough to be good with kids if you're obese because you can't run around and play with them.
We wouldn't be able to do a lot of stuff together.
My wife and I play a lot of sports together.
We go on a lot of hikes together.
And it would be an indication, of course, of somebody who was a short-term gratification expert and not a long-term gratification expert, which would probably indicate some level of self-awareness or intelligence or something like that, right?
So, you say, boom, like, your nose is the same as a woman who's significantly overweight.
But that's not the same thing at all.
One's chosen and one's not.
I'm not going to judge someone by the size of their nose because they didn't choose the size of their nose.
Any more than some woman.
If some woman judges me as deficient because I'm bald, well, you know, go find a hairy guy.
If the quality of my character doesn't matter how good a father I'm gonna be, how good a husband I'm gonna be, how
good a friend and provider I'm gonna be, if none of that matters, but the accidental hair protein strands coming off
my scalp are what matters, okay then, then you should go and do that.
Like, woman has... I mean, I don't know if you want to go into like height, for example.
Like, if you were five feet tall, would your wife talk to you?
Oh, my wife is short, and she's taller than her own father, so yeah.
Because here's the thing.
Let's say that I was five feet tall.
Are you five feet tall, or are we talking purely theoretical here?
No, theoretical.
I'm your height.
Okay, so you're above average, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so what are we talking about mystery dwarf guy for?
It's because I'm trying to prove there is some things that are in our genetics that people will disqualify you just based off of that.
Jesus, man.
You're a fucking hard work, I'll tell you.
Straight up.
We were talking about you being honest with your mother, right?
Yep.
And what are we talking about now?
Some five-foot dwarf guy with three eyes and alopecia?
Like you understand how this is your mom completely intervening and fucking up our conversation.
I'm talking to you about being honest with your mother and the fact that you're not honest with your mother is crippling your ability to get a good woman.
And you're dragging me off on all these completely cockeyed theoreticals.
Why?
It's a proof of point, but we can move on.
No.
So what's the point, then?
I'm not trying to sound hostile.
I'm genuinely curious if there's a point.
But it seems to me that being honest with your mother is under your control.
the dating life of a five-foot guy is not.
It's because you want to judge people based on their character, not their genetics, right?
But historically speaking, it's like women want to date taller guys at all times.
Historically, today, it's always been this way.
That's why the average height of a man is increasing.
Well, that also has to do with nutrition, things like that too, right?
So, okay, obviously, if you want to talk evolutionary biology, if women want to date taller guys, why are there shorter guys?
Because historically, there's been shorter guys.
Why are there, there were short guys, even in the past, there was variations in male height, even in the past.
So men don't like to date women who are bald.
So there are virtually no bald women, right?
Yep.
Okay.
So why are there short guys?
Why is there a gene for short?
Why has it not been taken out of the equation?
Because height is a relative back, back in a day, the average was like five, I think five, six.
Now the average is like five, nine.
So yeah, you get that there was a bell curve in the past as well, right?
Yes, so the bottom half of that bell curve is basically being cut out of the gene pool at all times.
So...
The average is moving up.
If we're talking about prior to the modern era, okay, so when did...
When did height start significantly increasing?
During... like right before World War I, I think.
Okay.
So for the other...
hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years of human evolution,
they were still short guys.
They were... no, they're always gonna be short guys, always.
Even today there's short guys.
If women won't date short guys, the short jeans will vanish.
No, because height is relative.
Okay, I'm not going round in these circles.
If you don't grasp this concept, that just because you moved the bell curve doesn't mean that there was no bell curve in the past.
So let's say the average height for guys in the past was 5'6", there'd still be a bell curve.
Five foot to six foot or whatever, right?
Now the average height for guys is six foot, so there's going to be five six guys and six six guys and all of that, but it's just a moving bell curve, right?
Yes, and where did all the genetics for the five four guys go from the previous bell curve?
But we're not... I'm talking about human evolution.
If women had evolved to always reject shorter guys, there'd be no shorter guys.
I mean, there are no four-foot-tall giraffes, because, right, they don't get mated with, right?
Yeah, but they used to be, and now they're not in the gene pool.
Right.
So, we still, I'm just telling you, I mean, we can accept this or not, because this is all just a big distraction.
So, the fact that there are short genes in humanity means that women are willing to mate with shorter guys.
The fact that there are bald genes for men but not for women means that women are willing to mate with bald guys, although it does to some degree come through the maternal, but men aren't willing to mate with bald girls.
Correct.
So you understand that baldness for men has not been selected out of the gene pool because women will mate with that, right?
And there's a height variation among men because women are willing to mate with shorter men.
But since this doesn't have anything to do with either of us, this is just another annoying distraction which your mom's throwing in so you don't have to talk about your mom.
Because it doesn't apply to you, right?
Nope.
Okay, so why are you bringing it up?
I forgot.
I already forgot why.
I bet you did!
Right?
So, are you going to be honest with your mom?
Yeah.
I don't believe you.
I will.
I don't believe you.
You know what?
How much emotion have you had over the course of this conversation?
I may not be showing it, but internally I'm feeling it.
Okay.
Why don't you show your emotion?
Because in the past when I did, nobody cared.
Okay, that's a full fucking Vienna Orchestra of violinic self-pity.
What are you talking about?
What do you mean, nobody?
Nobody ever cared about anything you were feeling over the course of your entire life?
I can get that in the army.
I can get that with your mother and the non-bonding men she chose, but when you say nobody, who do you mean?
You mean my family?
And like, I don't... What family?
You just have a mother, don't you?
Yeah.
So why didn't you just say that?
Why didn't you show emotion?
Because my mother didn't care about nobody!
My family!
It's just your mother, isn't it?
It's you and your mom.
Yeah, it's the people I try to be close with.
How can you be close to people if you're still lying to your mom?
No, I can't.
So you keep, you, oh my god, this is like trying to get you to connect to your mom's culpability or responsibility in any of these things feels like an almost impossible task.
Why do you hide your emotions from people?
Do you, who, okay, why should, why should a woman choose you?
Let me ask you that.
Why should a woman choose you?
Lots of guys out there, better looking guys than you, better looking guys than me, whatever, right?
Taller guys than you, taller guys than me, richer guys than you, richer guys than me, whatever.
Why should a woman choose you?
I have a slightly smaller nose is not quite the answer you're looking for, right?
I mean, I'm better looking than most.
That's a shallow reason.
That's not unimportant.
Okay.
So, but why would a woman choose to bond with you?
And I'm not saying there's no good reason, but there's a question we have to answer, right?
It's a bunch of shallow reasons.
Let's hear them anyway.
Better than the average looks-wise, height-wise.
Financially, I'm well off.
I'm aggressive most of the time.
It may not sound like it in this conversation, but I'm assertive.
At least when I think I'm in the right.
When I'm not with your mom, you're not.
Yeah, definitely not when I'm alone.
But like at work and stuff, right?
Uh, repeat that?
But at work you're assertive.
Yeah, like I get in trouble because of it.
Yeah, so that's like your mom, right?
Your mom is competent at work and incompetent in relationships, right?
Yeah, like when I know something's not it, like, I will ruthlessly pursue it.
Could be at my own pension.
At work?
Yeah.
But you haven't had that kind of passion for a woman, right?
No.
Right.
Okay.
So I need to bridge that gap.
Why will someone choose you?
And you want a woman who's quality, which means she's got options, right?
Yeah.
So, out of the waving hands of pick me, pick me, why is she picking you?
I'm the best she can pick from in terms of...
I can hold up a conversation.
I'm into history, philosophy, even religion.
I'm an atheist, but I'm still into religion.
I find it very interesting.
I can definitely hold my way in a conversation.
Again, financially I'm pretty well off and physically I'm well off too.
So what am I missing here, Stefan?
I mean, I'm sorry, because you're going to kick yourself.
Do it, do it.
So you've got money, good conversation lists, you know about this, that and the other, history and religion and all of that.
Kick me in the balls.
What's my definition of love?
Virtue.
You gotta love for virtue.
Have you mentioned anything about virtue?
No, I mentioned a bunch of shallow things.
No, no, philosophy's not shallow.
History's not shallow.
It's like, I remember you said it's like mental masturbation.
It's just like you say it but not practice it.
I don't know what you're referring to.
Yeah, me either.
Okay, I'm glad we agreed on that.
So, you could disagree with my definition, although I have found it to be universally true and I've made a pretty rational case for it, I think.
If I've defined love, and maybe you've accepted, I mean, do you accept that it's our response to virtue if we're virtuous?
Yes.
Okay.
So, if I say, why would a woman pick you?
Why would a woman, which is saying, why would a woman fall in love with you?
And you're talking to the guy who says love is virtue, and I say, well, why?
And you say, anything but virtue.
Basically, right?
Mm-hmm.
Good looking, got money, decent conversationalist, no history, whatever, right?
None of those are virtuous, right?
Essentially.
So, this is why a woman can't pick you.
Because your ideas don't hang together.
If you accept my definition of love, and I say, why would a woman fall in love with you?
And you say, well, all of these things that have nothing to do with your definition, which you accept, right?
Yeah.
If I say, how do I get to Vegas?
You say, go north.
When, in fact, you believe both in helping people get to Vegas and also know that it's going south instead.
That would be kind of weird, right?
That would be, like, mischievous.
Oh, well, it would be wrong.
It'd be bad.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Be lying.
So, why is virtue absent from your definition of love or attachment?
Hint, she gave birth to you.
My mother?
Yeah!
Are you holding your mother to objective virtues?
No.
No?
So then virtue can't be part of your equation of pair bonding.
Can't be part of your equation of love.
So, you can't win a woman through virtue.
Because your mom's not keeping you through virtue.
Yeah, like I haven't seen an example of it.
Sorry?
I haven't seen an example of it, so of course it's absent for me.
Example of what?
A virtuous relationship.
Do you know why?
Because I've never seen it in my life.
Do you know why you haven't seen it?
Why, Stefan?
Tell me.
Well, if you're a criminal, do you hang out with a lot of honest, decent people?
No, you hang out with criminals.
Right.
So, if you don't demand virtue from your relationships, virtuous people won't spend time with you.
Because that means spending time with amoral or bad people.
Yep.
If I was in town and you said, hey, come have lunch with my mom, what would I say?
Hell nah.
No, thank you!
Yeah, no thank you.
So, the people of integrity, people of virtue, people of this kind of moral quality, we're scanning all the time.
It's a non-stop process.
I mean, there's lots of people who want to meet me, lots of people who want to chat with me and so on, and I'm scanning, right?
Yeah.
I'm scanning for honesty and integrity and virtue and so on, right?
Correct.
So, if I met you, What would I get out of meeting you?
And listen, you're a young man, you're further ahead than I was at your age, so please understand this is nothing critical or I'm not trying to put you down at all.
You're way further ahead than I was at your age, so this is with all deep humility, right?
What would I get?
I'd get, okay, here's a guy, he's kind of in his head, he's kind of theoretical, and there's an angry, manipulative side of him that comes from his mom, that is constantly working to defend his mom.
Which is why I got annoyed at all these theoreticals coming in when we started to talk about you being honest with your mom.
Your mom moved in to drag me off to theoreticals.
And I like, I was following and then I like, I had to shake my head and say, wait, what the, what are we talking about this?
Do you know what I mean?
It's convincing, huh?
Oh, it really is.
Yeah.
No, I mean, your mom must be fantastic at this stuff.
I think I'm better than her at it.
I do believe that's true.
I do believe that's true.
And were you aware that you were doing that?
Side-tracking?
Not really, because I thought it's relevant, but now I forgot what it was about, so it's better to drop it.
Well, I mean, it might have been relevant if you were very short, but you're taller than average, so that's not an issue, right?
Okay.
So, and of course, you are intelligent enough to know that I'm highly susceptible to theoreticals.
That's not what I do, it's a lot of theoreticals, right?
So you really laid a perfect bait there, right?
I guess so, yeah.
We spent a couple of minutes going down this road before I was like, whoa, what the hell?
Why are we here, right?
Yeah.
If you move in to guide your mother, whatever honesty, integrity, or directness is brought up, a woman, that's gonna torpedo a relationship with a woman.
A woman of virtue, definitely.
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
I see you.
I see it.
If you sacrifice honesty and integrity, At the altar of fear.
And I understand the fear.
I really do.
I'm not putting you down for it.
You're a courageous man, for sure.
But you're afraid of your mother's temper and rejection, which I completely understand.
And that's the choice.
You can stay in a relationship with your mother, such as it is.
You can choose to not tell her the truth.
I'm just saying, don't lie to yourself about what you're doing and the price you're paying.
So if your mom calls and you're like, okay, well, you know, I'm, I don't want to confront her.
I've chosen not to confront her.
I've chosen not to be honest.
I'm going to pick up the phone and I'm going to lie and pretend everything's fine.
That's, to me, just don't lie to yourself about what's happening.
I'm scared of her.
I'm scared of her temper, her rejection, her whatever, right?
And I'm willing to sacrifice honesty and integrity with a potential mate for the sake of this.
Not worth it.
I'm happy to chat with the woman who told me to get a sex toy rather than admit any problems with her parenting.
And I'm either going to tell a potential girlfriend about my mother telling me to get a sex doll, or I'm going to lie about it.
Thus protecting my mother's corruption from my potential girlfriend, and lying to her.
And also, if it comes out at some point, let's say you're dating some girl, you've hid the corruption of your mother from your girlfriend, and Your mother makes that joke about, oh yeah, I remember a couple of years ago telling him to get a sex doll because he couldn't get a girlfriend.
I'm glad he didn't get a sex doll and got you, ha ha ha, right?
And she turns to you and she's like, what the hell?
Your mother told you to get a sex doll and you never told me that?
How's that day for you?
I'll ruin that day.
More than that day.
Because then she'd be like, okay, so you're perfectly comfortable lying to me to maintain appearances.
So what else did you lie about?
What else are you lying about?
Is that even your real nose?
No, I'm kidding.
You could tell her that, right?
But yeah, that's... Yeah, I understand.
You poisoned the well.
I'm sorry?
You poisoned the well when you withhold information.
Right.
So, yeah, I mean, you don't have to tell the truth.
It's not a violation of the UPP to not tell the truth.
But it's really, really not healthy to lie to yourself about it.
Yeah.
Gotta stop living a lie.
Or be honest with yourself about what you're doing.
You know, like if, if some guy, I don't know, uh, uh, you know, it's the old story about the, the, the guy who bursts into the house and says to the husband, where's your wife?
I want to beat her up.
Well, he's going to lie.
I don't know where she is.
She's not right.
Whatever.
Right.
Yep.
But he's not, he's not lying to himself.
He's just lying to the person.
And so if people say, well, why did you lie?
That guy is supposed to protect my wife.
Of course he knows he's lying.
He knows he did lie and he's very comfortable with it.
Right.
Yeah.
So, um, if you choose not to be honest with your mother, at least don't lie to yourself about it and say, okay, well, no, she's big and scary.
I care.
Right.
And, and I'm willing to sacrifice being attractive to women and maybe even ending up with some maternally approved sex toy or sex doll.
And, uh, that's, you know, I'll, I'll pay that price because mom's scary.
Okay, I mean, it's not what I would recommend, but it's better than whatever's happening here where it's like structural this and monogamy that and short jeans and bell curves and historically and 200 years, like, that's all nonsense.
Because you can start blaming society when you're honest in your personal relationships.
But if you're not honest in your personal relationships, blaming society, you know, quality women don't want to date people who don't tell the truth.
Especially to themselves, because they can't be trusted, right?
So, yeah, that's my sort of big takeaway.
It's like, yeah, blame society all you want, but you've got to clean up your own life first, right?
Otherwise, your mom's pointing it with society so you don't talk to her, honestly.
You always say this, it's like, men will, like, they'll fight wars before they tell the truth to their parents or their mothers, something like that, yeah.
It's like, we're gonna do everything except what needs to be done.
Well, and of course, if you wanted, the last thing I'll mention here, evolutionarily speaking, is, you know, we evolved in places where, if you had a mom, all the women were like the mom.
And so, if you were to criticize the mom, you probably wouldn't get anyone to mate with you.
Because they'd all pull together and so on.
But we have much more choice now, and I think we can afford honesty because we can find quality people, which really wasn't much of an option in the past.
I mean, I was going to take this short thing to the choice, like, women never have this much freedom of choice.
Back then, they were forced into marriages, like, you know this.
Well, no, I don't think women have much freedom of choice at the moment, because they're removed from consequences.
And if you remove consequences from people, their choices get all screwed up.
Now, I know that sounds kind of deterministic, but... Aren't you taking away their agency in this?
Yes, I'm aware of that.
People do respond to incentives.
And incentives allow people to give themselves excuses, and that does generate bad behavior.
So, I'm not going to say that people are immune from incentives.
I mean, that's a foundational aspect of economics.
So, people do respond to incentives.
Otherwise, people would work just as hard in a socialist factory as they do in a capitalist factory.
So, people do respond to incentives.
And listen, obviously, there are systemic problems.
But you can't wait!
Until the systemic problems get fixed to date.
So you have to take maximum self-ownership and you have to give maximum self-ownership.
And if you take maximum self-ownership, you'll be most compatible with people who themselves take maximum self-ownership.
So yes, absolutely, the incentives all kinds of screwed up.
But if you take maximum self-ownership, you'll end up with someone like yourself.
And that's the foundation of a great relationship because you won't have the excuse for bad behavior and you won't be able to blame each other.
So I think that's the way to go.
You're, you're 100% right.
I expect the truth from my friends.
I should expect that from my personal relationship as well.
Yeah.
So go have a chat.
All right.
Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
Of course.
I was going to ask you, do people give you updates often?
I wouldn't say often, but it certainly happens.
I was wondering, you could do like an episode all from this episode, now they're here, like before and after.
Maybe, yeah, we'll do.
Maybe I'll just do a round table of prior call-ins and everyone can give me an update.
All right.
Thanks, man.
Keep me posted and I appreciate the call today.
You did a great job.
Thank you.
Thank you for yourself.
Bye.
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