April 18, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:12:42
5472 Surviving Suicide... Freedomain Call In
Exploring a caller's journey through trauma, divorce, and emotional struggles, themes of forgiveness and self-reflection emerge. The episode emphasizes personal growth, addressing past trauma, seeking help, and embracing change amidst family challenges.Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!Get my new series on the Truth About the French Revolution, the Truth About Sadism, access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and more!See you soon!https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
How can I, how can I, I mean, I remember the email of course, but how can I best help?
Yes, sir.
Well, like I said in the call in request, you know, when my, when my wife was pregnant,
Uh, you know, I would, sometimes I would just get these, these, uh, these urges or something to maybe, uh, to, to do something towards, you know, towards a baby, um, in, in her, in her stomach that, you know, it wouldn't exactly be healthy for the baby.
And, um, you know, if I'm put in a, uh,
And you know, the sole caregiver position, uh, like it's, I'm responsible for, for helping her, assisting her to, to go to bed.
You know, I, I kind of have a short, short patience, um, with, with that process.
Um, and I mean, thank, thank goodness my wife is, uh, always willing to, to, to do the extra work and like, I'll, I'll tap out.
If it's too much, um, but, uh, but yeah, I, I, I believe I said, um, I, I, I just get these, these impulses to, to silence her, um, you know, by force.
Well, listen, it's a super brave thing to admit, and I really admire your courage in talking about this stuff.
Because, I mean, it's not what you're expecting, I assume, and it's tough stuff to talk about, but, you know, just genuine and deep admiration for having the courage to talk about this.
I really, really admire that.
I just wanted to sort of say that up front.
Now, when it comes to the sort of impulses that you have,
I mean, let's, let's just start full dark.
Let's just, let's just go right down to the basement.
Right.
So what, what are your thoughts?
Like, what are your impulses regarding your daughter?
Um, well, you know, one, one way to soothe her is to kind of like rub her forehead.
And, you know, sometimes it's like the Jedi mind trick or something.
Cause you know, I waved my hand in front of her and her eyes were closed, but, um,
You know, I have placed my hand over her head.
Babies are so tiny, they have such tiny heads, you can kind of fit their whole head in your hand.
I think I get it.
Yeah, I think I get it.
What's your age range?
Are you in your 30s, 20s?
Me and my wife were both 34.
Like I said in the email, my baby's almost four months.
We have like a week to go.
Okay.
And how long have you been married?
Well, technically we never even got married.
Um, but we've been together for, for about six or seven years.
Okay.
Got it.
And what had you wait so long to have babies?
And look, I'm not saying that it's some big, terrible disaster.
I'm just curious, you know, if you wanted kids, you would have had them, I assume in your twenties.
And was there a reason why you waited six or seven years to have a kid, or I guess five to six years before you started trying?
Um, it's a great question.
Um, I didn't like, like, uh, I, I met my wife, uh, when I was like 28 and we met at work.
Um, and you know, um, when I met her, uh, I, I was a lot more rough around the edges.
Um, um, I, I still a lot of work to do, um, on myself and,
You know, she was in a relationship with with another man.
But, you know, I still decided to pursue her.
But we, you know, and it was very toxic in the first few years, I would I would say, you know, I was certainly verbally abusive.
Towards her.
And, uh, I mean, eventually, uh, I kind of started to, to kind of put myself together and she stuck with me, uh, a lot of the way through all that.
Um, but, uh, I guess it was like, I mean, I I'm very aware that having children late is, is not a, not the best for, for the baby's health and, um,
And I knew we had to get going.
So, uh, I, I, I'm sorry.
I'm rambling.
I, I don't really know.
Um, you know, uh, uh, I'm not sure.
Got it.
Okay.
And how did you get her away from the other man?
Oh, it wasn't, it wasn't that difficult.
Um, honestly, um, because he, they were together for like seven years.
And they were just not in a good relationship.
He preferred to drink all the time and he really wasn't going anywhere.
Um, he wasn't giving her attention.
Um, but you were verbally abusive too.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
You're the upgrades.
Like, I don't mean to say like there's some big negative thing here, but you know, the verbal abuse ain't great.
Right.
I took her away from this bad guy and yelled at her.
You're right.
That's a hundred percent true.
So she's got a bit of a bad boy thing.
Is that fair to say?
Sorry, I don't mean to diminish it, but it seems that might be the case.
It certainly, I never thought about it, but that certainly might be true.
So how did you get, you, did you say, you know, he's a loser, I'm the guy, or how did you, how did you pry her out of that?
Cause seven years, I mean, they were basically married, right?
So.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Of course.
Of course.
Yeah.
I said, he's a loser.
I'm the guy.
Um, you know, I, I guess now that, uh, now that I think about it, it wasn't exactly too much of a difference between the two of us, you know, but, um, yeah, not at the time anyway.
Got it.
Okay.
Okay.
I appreciate that.
And what is your history with violence as a kid?
Um,
I, uh, as a, as a child, I don't, you know, I don't remember, uh, large parts of my childhood, but I do, I don't, I wasn't, uh, you know, I wasn't beat or anything, uh, like that, at least not often.
I remember when I was very small, um, before my, my mother and father divorced, um,
If we were, if me and my older sister were being disciplined, it'd kind of be like a big, uh, you know, big show and a lot of tears involved and my father would get the belt out.
And even then I, you know, I kind of feel like it was more,
That made them feel better to have me and my sister.
You've been fog of the day so far.
That's really murky.
A. Can't remember much of my childhood or large parts.
B. I wasn't beat.
Well, not that often.
And C. There were a lot of tears involved, but I don't know whose.
Right?
So, if you could just be more specific, I'd appreciate that.
So, you were beaten.
I mean, saying not that often, I mean, to me, that's like saying, well, I'm not a murderer.
I mean, I've never killed, well, not that often.
Right?
Yeah.
So you were beaten and I'm, you know, I fully accept that it wasn't that often, but how often was not that often?
Um, like, like I said, um, it was more of a show, like they, they wanted to see us scared and crying and begging them not to hurt us.
So it was kind of sadistic.
Yeah, certainly.
Certainly.
I mean, I, I don't think there's that much depth to, to my father, but I do think he enjoyed that aspect of it.
Okay.
You know, you still haven't answered my question though, right?
Do you remember what it was?
How often was it?
Yes, sir.
Um, I don't, I don't, I don't think that often.
I, um, I mean, I'm sure it happened.
Um,
But I can't say.
Of course you can.
You can say daily.
It's not daily, obviously, that would be very often.
Was it like every year?
Maybe once a year?
Maybe once every five years?
Was it two times?
Was it five times?
Was it a dozen times?
Like, there's got to be some range that we could talk about.
It was probably five times.
Okay, so five times, so there was this ritual, this crying, you'd be crying.
The ritual, I apologize to cut you off, the ritual probably happened more than that.
But it was, you know, if we were ever actually hit, it was probably just like five times.
Okay.
And how often would the ritual, I guess if you showed enough sadness and tears and crying or whatever, then you would be let off the hook.
Is that right?
Yeah, that's how it worked.
And how often would the ritual happen?
Um, it was, it was when I was very young.
Um, so I, I don't exactly.
I mean, I know I'm kind of, it was probably like a weekly thing.
A weekly thing?
So a weekly thing, you'd be threatened with the belt and have to weep and cry and gnash your teeth and submit, right?
Yeah, but that only took place while my parents were actually together, because eventually they did divorce.
And then, you know, it went from there.
How old were you when they divorced?
I think I was six or seven.
Okay.
And do you know why they divorced?
Uh, well, my mother, she, she, when she was a child, she was, you know, abused and, um, I think she grew up, I mean, I know she grew up in a foster home.
Uh, there were allegations that the,
The father of this foster home was touching the girls there.
They only took girls.
So she was in a foster home.
Was it because her parents were dead or just because it was so dangerous for her at home that it was better for her in a foster home?
Um, that's unknown.
She hasn't, she's never really disclosed anything about her.
Well, of course she doesn't have any contact with her parents.
I assume otherwise you'd know at least that they weren't dead.
Yeah.
She claims her father, uh, killed himself.
But I'm not sure, the whole story.
And do you have any idea, did she go into the foster home because her father killed herself, or was it sometime afterwards?
I have no idea, to be honest with you.
I know they were giving up, or something, it was her and her brother.
Oh, so her parents gave them up?
Yeah, I think the mother did.
And how old were you when your mother told you that her father had killed himself?
Pretty early.
Pretty young.
Uh, maybe, maybe before I hit double digits, you know, she was very open about a lot of, uh, of things with, with me and my sister.
Very open.
What do you, you don't even know if her parents are alive?
You don't even know if her mom's alive?
What do you mean she's pretty open?
What am I, am I missing something here?
She like shows you, here, count the hairs on my armpits cause I'm pretty open.
Can I find out about grandma?
No.
She just liked to tell us, you know, sometimes unsavory things about... Oh, so she was like a traumatic sharer.
She was like a sadistic sharer.
Yeah, sure.
Okay, so both your parents have this sadistic elements, it seems to me.
I mean, confirm or deny if I'm on the wrong path, but that's... I, you know, certainly.
I agree.
Okay.
And so, sorry, I'm not sure if we got to why your parents...
Oh, uh, you know, being with a woman like that, it is, it is, you know, once a lady decides she doesn't want to be with you anymore, she's going to raise hell and kick up hell.
And, uh, she was already a drinker, heavy drinker, uh, throughout, you know, um, the marriage.
Uh, and, and I, they would just get into these, drop them down, kick, you know, like big fights all the time.
Um, and again, me and my sister would put on a big show.
We'd scream, we'd cry and we beg them to stop fighting, stop fighting.
Um, and you know, the first time the novelty of it, it probably worked, you know, but like eventually it stopped working.
Uh, I believe my mother claimed that my father, uh, hit her and she had pictures of the bruises and all this.
It was a, it was a big family drama, but eventually, uh, you know, she, she ran him off, you know,
Um, so they, so they went their separate ways.
And when you say she ran him off, does that mean you didn't have much contact with him afterwards?
I, I did have contact with him.
You know, he, he was always, uh, talking about getting custody of us and this and that, and she was, she wasn't good.
Um, and I think he ended up getting every other weekend.
So I would see him, you know, every other weekend or
You know, but what he would do when we were, you know, when that first happened is he kind of fell into the bottle too.
And when he would pick us up, we'd go drive to the bar and he would have, you know, he called them sprites.
He would have sprites at the bar where me and her just, you know, sat in the car or whatever.
Then we'd drive home.
Wait, your dad would pick you up, you'd sit in the car, he'd go drinking and then he'd drunk drive you home?
That's right.
My God.
My mother, she actually would, she would have a big gulp and just fill it with wine.
And I remember I was old enough to have a cell phone.
So I don't know what, how old I was, but I remember thinking like, I'm dead, dude.
Like this is it.
And I was like, I wrote a little note in the cell phone.
I said, Hey, you know, I'm dead.
It wasn't anything deep to the note, I was just like... Okay, you can't try and chuckle me in this, right?
Yes, yeah.
I mean, you've probably heard this a million times at the call-in shows, where people talking about the most fucked up stuff.
Like a child who thinks he's gonna die, and you're giving me that chuckle.
And listen, I know that most people are like, haha, isn't that funny what kids think?
Kids do the craziest things!
But that's not here, right?
Yeah.
I mean, this is horrible.
So why, you said your mother was drinking wine in a big gulp.
Why was that what made you think, or was it something else that would make you think you were going to die?
You know, she's crashed her car before, from drinking and driving, you know, like alcohol was such a big thing for her.
So I, you know, I, I knew it impaired her ability to drive, you know, that was, I was well aware of that.
Oh, so like every time you're in the car with mom, it's like make, making my peace with Jesus.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And do you remember roughly how old, I have to say roughly now, cause I understand it's foggy, but do you remember roughly how old you were when you began to think that you were going to, your parents were going to kill you one way or another?
Um, I was, it had to be before I was 10.
Uh, so I would say like seven, seven to 10.
And it was probably around this time too, where I just, you know, I started to not want to be, uh, around anymore.
And I started wanting to die.
Um, and I mean, thank God there was no cell phones, like smartphones around back then.
Cause all I could all I could manage was wrapping a belt around my neck and pulling on it.
And you know, that's not going to do anything.
So, I mean, that was.
Yeah, but you can kill yourself with a belt, can't you?
Sure, sure, but, you know... I mean, if you, you know, hang it someplace... I don't want to give instructions, right, but I think you can, if I understand this correctly, I think it happened.
This is one of the reasons why you can't have a belt in prison, right?
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Thus giving a saggy pants fashion forever and ever, amen, but... So, this was so... while you were still in single digits, you are thinking of killing yourself, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Now, was there any particular incident that gave you those thoughts, or was it that accumulation of stuff, bit by bit?
Even when I was a child, I like, I would have this brain fog about my mother, and I would like, I had a book, a textbook from school, and I remember one time writing in the textbook, like, don't forget, you hate mom, you know, because I would keep forgetting.
That, you know, every time I interacted with her, I, you know, I would just, the experience would be, would be so horrible for me that, um, you know.
So tell me, tell me, sorry, tell me about an interaction with your mom that gives you the, the suicidality or the horrible feeling or the hatred.
What sort of interactions are you thinking of?
Well, I was, I was, when, when that whole thing with the, the belt and the suicide ideation took place, uh,
I was, I wasn't talking to anybody for like weeks.
I would go to school and, you know, I just, I didn't have any friends or I didn't talk to anybody.
And I would go home and, you know, everyone was doing their own thing.
Um, so I, I wouldn't talk to anyone.
It would take, it would go on for, for, for like weeks, you know?
Um, so, you know, I was kind of neglected by her and, and, you know, I,
Again, I can't exactly remember.
When you speak about, you know, neglect, it kind of, you know, I kind of, I don't know how to say, vibe with that, you know, I kind of get that.
But it's hard for me to explain what she would do to me.
Because it's an absence, right?
Like, she's just not talking to you.
Yeah.
Right.
Okay.
And how did things... Sorry, was it a brother or sister that you had?
Sorry.
I had an older sister.
And how much older and what was your relationship like with her?
She's two years older than me.
Or maybe it's just a year.
I think it's just a year older.
And you know,
It's, it was okay.
Uh, you know, cause we, we survived, uh, all that, all that together, but eventually, you know, she got older.
But you said no one talked to you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well that she, she started getting friends and she was much more, she was better at having friends than I was.
So that's, she would use that as her escape.
You know, so she just kind of bailed and said, yeah, I might, my friends matter, but I'm not going to talk to my brother.
Yeah.
And I don't, I don't blame her for that.
Sorry.
Why don't you blame her for that?
You know, it's just, if she could get out and escape, you know, that situation through that, I guess, you know, I was, I was playing video games all day.
So that's how I tried to... No, sorry, so let's say you're... So at what age did she start going and hanging out with friends more?
I guess it really took place when she hit her teens, but...
Okay, so she's like, what, 14 or 15, and you're 12 or 13, right?
Yeah, sure, sure.
Well, actually, when I was 13, I went to live with my father, so it had to be before that.
Okay.
So she's not always out with her friends.
Why is the older sibling, can she not talk to you?
Now the video games thing is not an excuse, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So why you say you don't blame her for spending time with friends.
Okay.
Well, I understand that.
I mean, she could have theoretically brought you along a little bit, unless it was like some old girl power camp or something.
No, I was, I was, you know, uh, I, I, I was the tag along.
I wasn't, you know, cool.
Well, I know, but you're family.
It's funny, you know.
I'll come to that later.
Okay, so why couldn't she talk to you when she was home?
I suppose there's not really a reason.
You know, she would make me food sometimes.
But one time she spilt the boiling pot of ramen on her leg and it was pretty nasty.
It burnt her leg up.
Was that like a permanent scar?
I knew it.
Yeah, yeah.
And I mean, you had to scrape the skin off.
And it didn't even give you any anesthesia or anything.
So she'd go to the doctor for months and they would have to scrape her leg down.
So we're back to the chuckle, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
And what's your relationship like with her now or how has her life played out as a whole or both?
Well, uh, she, she kind of, you know, she went to for a while.
Um, sorry.
Uh, well she, for, for a little while she was into one of her boyfriends was into
Like libertarianism and, you know, she was like, believed in that, those kind of, those views, but then she went like hardcore feminist, uh, lefty.
And, you know, I, when I was a kid, I fell into some of these other, uh, you know, I thought, I thought like being a skinhead was cool and, and, and,
All this other stuff, you know, I was just looking for, for somewhere to, to, to belong.
And so we, we kind of had that divide and just, just being exposed to, you know, the internet and having, and, and, and, um, and, and having the access to information that's not, not censored.
I don't know what I'm, what I'm trying to say.
My opinions on things clashed with everything.
She thought about everything, you know, and I told,
I told her, my mother, when I was like 11 or 12 or something, you know, I was like, I'm going to find a girl from a different country who, you know, knows how to treat a man.
You know, like I gotta, you guys are horrible to men.
I don't know.
I'm just random.
Sorry, you guys being your sister and your mother?
Yeah.
And how old were you at that time?
Uh, it had to be like 11 or 12.
Okay.
So you were angry or upset with your sister at that point, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess, I guess that's true.
So help me understand the, it seemed to me there was something along the lines of, I understand, I don't have a problem with, with what she did.
Yeah.
As a kid.
Yeah.
I mean, I just, you know, it's, uh, to, to go through, to go through all that, it's hard to, to come out and, um,
You know, to not be, uh... Excuse me.
To, uh, to be... You know, not culpable... I'm sorry, who's not culpable here?
Your sister?
You know, uh... For... I'm sorry, uh... You know, it's... It's a tough situation, so, you know, sometimes you don't make the...
The best decisions.
And I certainly didn't either.
Okay, so you understand why I'm a little baffled here?
Yeah.
Why am I a little baffled here?
I'm jumping all over the place.
No, it's not because of that!
Because you're so full of forgiveness and understanding, but you feel aggressive and violent towards your four-month-old baby!
Like, what the hell?
Like, why does your sister get all of this understanding and compassion and, you know, well, it was a tough situation and I don't have any issues.
And then you're like, but I've put my hand around my baby.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, that's crazy.
And I don't mean you're crazy.
I just mean that this is like, what?
You forgive your sister, but you're enraged at your baby.
Yeah.
How about you forgive your baby for nothing, for being a baby, and get mad at your sister?
Or someone, because it ain't your baby, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so... What's going on with you and your sister?
Because she was older, right?
Yeah.
And she had also better social skills, by which I assume she was pretty.
Of course.
Yeah, okay, so good social skills.
Look, I'm very comfortable with people.
It's like, well, yeah, because they like you because you're pretty.
Girls and boys alike, right?
So she had some kind of entree into social life, right?
Yep.
And she just tossed you off the bus, didn't she?
Sure.
Sure.
Definitely.
I agree.
Okay.
So now, okay.
I get the tag along thing.
I understand, you know, all of that, but why not teach you some social skills or notice that you're lonely or notice that you're isolated or come talk to you for five fucking minutes a day?
Yeah.
Now you say, ah, well, yes, but she was only 13 and it's like, I understand that.
But it's not impossible for 13 year olds.
To have some basic human compassion, is it?
Uh, no, no, you're right.
You're right.
So, your mom's a complete train wreck.
Yeah.
And dangerous.
And, you know, there's a murderous... Drunk driving, especially with kids in the car, has a murderous element to it, in my view.
Yeah.
Yeah, of course.
I mean, it's terrifying for the children.
And they kill other people on a regular basis, right?
Of course.
And themselves.
Yeah.
Which, okay, so your sister is fleeing the burning building of your household, and it seems to me, and correct me if I'm wrong, wouldn't your experience be that she was just, she didn't give a shit about you and was just leaving you behind?
Sure.
Wait, I'm not sure what sure means, because that sounds like, okay, as opposed to, do you agree or not?
I don't want to be wrong.
I agree.
I do agree.
Okay, now, here's a kind of dichotomy that we have, right?
So, we have our experiences as children, right?
Yeah.
And then we have our adult understanding.
And so you can, like as a kid, you probably felt pretty angry and abandoned by your sister.
Now, as an adult, you say, well, but it was a tough situation and she was escaping and I can understand this and I can understand that.
But that does not address the feelings you had as a child.
Yeah.
Right?
So, what we do is we say, well, as a child I was angry, but as an adult, I understand the situation, and it's complicated, and there's this, and there's that, and there's the other, and ehhh, right?
Yeah.
But that just simply erases the feelings of the child, of being angry, and hurt, and abandoned.
Because, as a child, you put
Your sister and your mother into the same category, right?
Because at the age of 11 or so, you're saying, I'm going to another country, find women who don't treat men like crap.
Yeah.
So, and you said that to your mother and your sister, right?
Yeah, both of them.
Right.
Were you and your sister threatened as much or did your father have more of a problem with her or more of a problem with you?
Once, um, they were separated.
He kind of, well, actually, I mean, no, no, no.
But when you were threatened, as you said from, they separated when you were six or seven, but before that you were threatened weekly and only beaten a couple of times, but yeah.
Were you and your sister threatened?
Were you both usually in the same threat theater or what?
Uh, you know, just, of course it's, it's sometimes it's together.
It just depends on who, uh, who, who was, um, you know,
Causing mom to be upset at the time, I suppose.
Oh, so it was your mom who was upset and your father?
Yeah, he was kind of like the enforcer, you know, if we made her upset.
Oh, so your mom would provoke your father into these threat theaters, right?
Right?
Yeah.
These struggle sessions.
Okay.
And you know, it's so funny, you know, in your book, The Future, the one father describes his son
Who's more cerebral.
He like sits back.
He's just observing everything.
He says, like he was worried his child was retarded.
And it's so it's, I mean, I guess it's not funny, but my father described me the same way.
And I just, I, you know, I was astounded that, you know, you can find that in a book somewhere, but, um, but yeah, at one time he was, you know, he, he's big into the television.
So he'd come home from work and sit down and watch TV.
And my sister was annoying him.
So he like chucked the remote at her and cracked her head open.
Cracked her head open?
That's more than chucking.
Yeah, it was, there was blood.
I, I, there was, I don't think that there's, I mean, I know there wasn't any broken bones or anything, but he broke the skin.
Wow.
And if she turned her head or something, it could have gone in her eye and blinded her, right?
Oh yeah, of course.
And I, I use that today.
As justification, uh, cause when I, whenever I confronted either him or my mother and said, Hey, listen, you know, cause I, I've been a listener of yours for a while.
Um, so when I, when I did confront them and say, Hey, listen, I, I'm not happy about some of this stuff that happened when I was a kid.
You know, my mother says, you know, you're lying.
There was no abuse, this and that.
And you know, my father, he'll just say, well, I did the best I could.
You know, I don't think I did anything wrong, but you know, this and that.
I'm like, well, you, you threw a remote at my sister.
I remember that, you know, what do you call that?
And, um, you know, don't really get into that.
I, well, I actually, I haven't actually said that to him.
I mean, I've said other things.
Oh, so in your mind and which is totally fine.
That's your, okay.
I have expressed to him that like, Hey, like I'm upset about a few
Things and then, you know, he gives me the whole, well, I did the best I could and I don't think I did anything wrong.
And I think I was pretty good.
But later on, like as now, I mean, I have to cut off more and more family members because they keep, Hey, well, listen, this is your father.
He just had a heart attack and this and that.
I think it's, you're going to regret if you don't reach out and talk to him.
And I, and I've given them both.
Uh, you know, I've been very plain.
Yeah.
You've given them ample opportunity to make things right and to listen or even to show any curiosity.
Yes, sir.
Okay.
Boy, you should really listen to, uh, part 19 of Peaceful Parenting.
I deal with this, uh, directly.
I just put it out yesterday.
So, um, just do check that out.
Now, if you don't have the link, just let me know.
It's in Skype.
I actually did listen to it already.
I'm going to listen to it again.
Okay.
Okay.
Good.
Thank you.
All right.
It's a funny thing, you know,
There's two things I want to mention, and then I'll get back to the queries.
The first is that, isn't it wild how totally wounded children can just sail through society and nobody gives a shit?
Sure.
Like you go to school, you're staring at the floor, you're hunched shoulders, you're not saying anything, you're not talking to anyone, and nobody cares.
Yeah.
I mean, unless someone did intervene and say, hey, you know, what's, what's the matter?
You seem quite down or... It, it did happen at some point, um,
Where I was going to a counselor and... Sorry, how did you end up going to a counselor?
I can't even recall.
I was the kid in school who didn't speak to anyone and didn't talk to anybody.
Oh, so somebody did notice and steer you towards a counselor?
I guess, maybe.
I don't know.
How old were you?
It had to be that 10 to 12 range.
Oh, like post-divorce, but before you went to live with your dad?
Yeah, and I was telling them like, hey, my mom drinks a lot.
And the counselor sent Child Protective Services to the home.
Of course, they didn't, you know, we're not at a place where, you know, drinking a lot and neglecting your child.
Uh, is considered abuse.
So it's like, they would, they would, I guess they would ask her, do you drink and drive?
And she said, yeah, I would never like, you know, whatever.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And what they, they interviewed your sister and your sister was like, what?
Well, you wouldn't know what she said, but I guess she didn't say enough for them to intervene at all.
Right.
I would imagine she sided with my mother.
With your mother?
Yeah.
Okay.
And you don't remember?
I'm sorry, I just wanted to double check.
You don't remember how you ended up in seeing a counselor?
No idea.
I mean, I might've said something, you know, wild that got me.
Oh, you might've said like, I'm thinking of hanging myself or whatever, right?
Yeah.
And then they're like, okay, for liability reasons.
Well, right.
Yeah, exactly.
And how long did you see the counselor for?
Not long, like after that, it kind of like, you know, you have a kid come to your office and he just sits there and doesn't say anything for like 30 minutes, once a week, you know.
Oh, you didn't talk to the counselor?
Well, you did say enough to say that my mother drinks a lot, but then you would sit there and you wouldn't say anything.
Is that right?
I would like to imagine that's how it was.
But yeah, it did say that much, at least to her.
And, you know, eventually it didn't take too long after that for me to go live with my father because things were just escalating with my mother so much, you know.
Escalating how?
Well, um, we were just, she didn't, we were getting into disagreements.
I suppose she didn't like me as much anymore.
Um.
Like you as much anymore?
When did she like you before?
Yeah.
Oh, so you've been, you're hitting teen hormone storm and.
Yeah.
Skepticism and caustic aggression and, and, uh, all of that.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're starting to get your rage on, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And she, she, uh, you know, she grew up in the city, she was on the streets, so she's a,
And one time she was coming up to me.
I knew she wanted to hit me or something.
So I put my leg up to like, you know, kind of be a barrier between me and her as I'm sitting down.
And she just like, she went, she slapped me.
She's like, well, you were, you, you kicked me.
So that was self-defense.
So I was like.
So wait, how often would your mother hit you though?
I think that was just like the one time, like after that, I was like, I got to get the hell out of here.
No, no, before that though.
Cause we talked about the threats and the beatings when you were, I guess, little, little kid, toddler, six or seven.
And what would happen with your mother's violence between seven and you go into your dad's house?
Yeah.
I mean, it just wasn't, it, you know, she, she would be, uh, doing her own thing or drinking or doing drugs.
Oh, she did drugs?
Oh yeah.
Well that, we actually ended up doing drugs together.
Uh, later in life, you know, when I, well, you kind of buried in burying the lead there, man.
I mean, we, you know, she, she started with, uh, weed and then she slowly moved up to, to doing heroin.
Um, you know, and she, she actually found, you know, she, she would have just let random people into the home.
No boundaries.
She would let these random drunk losers into the home, but she wouldn't just, when the guy she was picking to be with, he was like the stooge, he was gonna pay for everything, so she wasn't just willy nilly about that, you know, she had to be someone she could control.
I'm sorry, the guy would pay for things?
Oh yeah, of course.
He'd pay for everything.
So she would basically exchange sex for money?
I don't want to be overly harsh, but it sounds like that's sort of the setup.
That was exactly the setup.
She would divulge some of her sexy time with these men to us as children.
But they would pay for everything.
One of them took us on this nice cruise.
Uh, you know, how, how, how pretty was your mom?
She, you know, beautiful woman, beautiful woman.
And, you know, uh, when you go through what she goes through as a child, you know, she, she learns how to, to manipulate and to, to, you know, the worst, the worst, the worst of things, you know, and you know, these, these knuckleheads would, would wander into her, you know, Venus fly trap and, and that was that.
But eventually she got pregnant again.
And, um, how old were you then?
I was 16.
Okay.
So hang on, let's go back to the heroin and mutual drug taking with your mom.
That was at the same time.
I was, I was at 16 when she started getting heroin and, um, and, uh, like she kicked that, she got rid of that guy pretty quick.
Um, and then she got rid of the baby too.
She put the baby up for adoption?
No, she just gave it to her father, which is worse, worse than an adoption.
Um, she gave it to her father.
Yeah.
Okay.
Who was a terrible father to her?
She, she, I apologize for the confusion.
Uh, she gave it to the baby's father.
Oh, the baby's father.
Okay.
So the father, not her father.
Okay.
Got it.
Yes, sir.
Um, and,
Is this the heroin guy?
No, the heroin guy came after him.
And he left too soon eventually because, you know, those type of relationships kind of burn quick.
Sorry, I thought you said she got rid of the heroin guy.
Yeah.
And when did you start doing drugs with her?
Probably around that same age, around 16, like we'd be smoking pot or she would find some pills for me to take and
Uh, you know why I babysat my, my baby sister.
Um, yeah, I would be hard.
She would drug you and then say, babysit yours.
Yeah.
And the baby was so good.
Like, well, no kidding.
It's got no bond.
I don't, I don't know if the baby was, you know, like what she was doing to make the baby sleep so well, but you know, she was a little angel.
Uh, well, she may have been giving drugs to more than you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, I, I completely.
So you smoked weed with your mother, or your mother gave you weed to smoke at 16, and gave you pills.
I mean, what pills?
Well, I had surgery at that time, and the whole opioid thing was just kicking off.
Sorry, surgery for what?
I had scoliosis that developed around high school.
Oh, is it a spine curl?
Do I have that?
Yes.
Spine curl.
It was horrible.
Cause you know, I was already like trouble, like making friends with people.
Uh, and then you turn it to fucking, excuse my French.
Quasimodo.
The least offensive thing about you, about this entire story is you drop it an F-bomb.
I don't care less about that.
So, and what's the source of scoliosis?
I think it's genetic.
And I, I, you know, I pray my, my daughter doesn't get it.
Um, but they, they think it's genetic.
They're not sure.
I mean, I don't know, to be honest with you, could have just been me hunched over playing the computer all day.
I mean, who knows?
Okay.
So you got the scoliosis and you got the surgery and then you had, I guess, pain pills after.
They gave me 50 milligram Percocet, heavy duty, man, you know, like that.
I mean, you were a kid still, right?
You were 16?
Yeah, of course, of course.
And I was popping them, and I loved them.
It turned out I loved them.
So, you know, heroin isn't that different from Percocet, so... Okay, so that still doesn't add to me what... Yes, sir.
Was that what your mom was getting you, was Percocet?
Something akin to that.
She said she didn't know what they were.
She found them in, you know, the hotel room she was cleaning, so I could have them.
So your mom gave you unidentified pills she found while cleaning a hotel room.
Yeah, I just took them.
That's, I mean, obviously I don't need to tell you how completely corrupt that is.
Yeah, it's nasty.
Monstrous.
I mean, you know, what she did to my sister was, was worse.
Oh?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Cause you know, she would, she would get older and she's like, why doesn't mom want me?
You know, that's all she would scream and she would cry.
Sorry, she would say, I didn't catch that.
Why?
Why?
Why?
Why doesn't mom want me?
Why doesn't mom want me?
Okay.
Yeah.
Why can't I be with you, mom?
Please let me be with you.
Oh, because your sister was with you and your dad?
She was with, this is my younger sister.
So when she got older,
That's what she would say when she was still with her father.
Your youngest sister with her father, and that's not your father?
No, no, different guy.
And how much younger is your youngest sister?
She would have been 15.
That doesn't tell me how much younger she is than you!
I don't... I'm trying to think.
Just roughly.
Um, probably 10 years.
Oh, 10 years.
Okay.
Yeah.
Oh, so sorry.
This is the, this is the woman.
Sorry.
This is the girl that your mother had and then gave to the father.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, okay.
So this is the sister who's saying, why can't I be with you, mom?
Okay.
Sorry.
I was, there's a lot of bodies flying around here.
Confusing.
I apologize.
Uh, yeah, my, my oldest sister, she just hung out with, with my mom for the next few years and
She would throw parties and drink and, you know, my mom would be there too.
It was just like, it wasn't the best situation.
Um, but I mean, I guess it was, you know, what she wanted.
I don't know.
And how long did your mom give you these drugs and take drugs with you for?
Um, excuse me.
I'm trying to think.
It lasted for a few years.
I tried to avoid her a lot.
As her addiction intensified, she'd be on the streets.
Eventually, she cut it all out.
She found another stooge and she blew up to like 300 pounds.
Oh my gosh, hang on, so how old were you when she was on the streets looking for drugs, selling herself?
What do you think was going on?
16, 17.
Yeah, I mean, probably all that, you know.
And then when did she get clean and I guess replace the drug addiction with a food addiction?
Maybe when I was like 20.
And do you know what, was there a particular incident?
Did she hit rock bottom or was there something that had her go clean?
No, no idea.
I never asked her.
I mean, it's a pretty important question.
It probably should have came up.
That's just curious.
And then she met a guy, like another stooge.
Was that when she was clean but not fat?
I think she might have been fat.
Okay, so she meets a guy.
Did she marry the guy?
How did she secure her income?
Man, and his family were so pissed too because he had all he had all this money and this inheritance and this property Which wasn't anything special, you know, it was kind of I know but the family's like you You're getting together with an obese recent drug addict.
Yeah, and my mom got it all when he passed.
Oh
I mean, he had.
God, how long were they together before he passed?
I don't know.
I don't know how long it took her to suck the life out of him.
He was so skinny and frail.
Um.
Was he much older?
No, they were, he, well, yeah, I guess so.
I guess so.
He was, he was probably close to 60.
Um.
And how long were they together before he died?
Maybe like four years, I want to say.
Oh gosh.
Do you know what he died of?
I think it was cancer.
Huh.
Yeah.
Oh, maybe he was, he said he was skinny and frail.
He was a heavy drinker.
He, he had, you know, when you're with a woman like my mother, when, I don't know, there's gotta be something wrong with you for sure.
Okay.
And so how were your twenties?
Uh, well, eventually I, uh, just cut out all the, all the drugs, um, and sat in my room.
And marinated for, you know, for like, until I was like 28 when I was like, you know, this is enough, you know, I'm tired of being... What do you mean marinated?
Were you living with your mother?
No, I was with my father.
Your father?
I just lived up in his attic and I didn't really do anything with my time.
I did go to college, but it took me like seven years to... Sorry, what do you mean?
Did you graduate?
I did graduate.
Okay.
And what was your degree in?
Uh, social work.
Okay.
Okay.
Right.
Cause you want to fix things.
Um, so what do you mean you marinated and like, are you talking like eight years?
Yeah, I just stagnated.
I mean, it took me, it took me doing what?
Nothing.
I mean, I just played video games.
I mean, uh, of course, of course my, my porn, uh, addiction started when I was young, very young, but, um, you know, it's, I just watched porn and played video games and,
I mean, went to college, but college is, you know, a joke.
So you basically got completely sucked in by scream vampires of the double-sided porn and games, right?
Yep.
Without a doubt.
All right.
Hmm.
And how was your relationship with your parents over your twenties?
Well, you know, my father was, you know, I suppose it was okay.
I mean, we never really talked, which he did prove to me.
That he, he did have the potential to be interested in the things I did when I was wrestling in high school for a brief time.
Um, and he was there and he was talking to me and we were having to bet, you know, he, he was like the father I always wanted, you know, he was, he cared.
He's like, Oh, you got to do this next time.
And he was at all my meets and everything.
And, you know, Oh, I guess that gave him some status, right?
Could possibly, you know, okay.
But besides that, you know, he really didn't talk to me too much.
Did you date in your twenties at all?
I did a tiny bit, you know, online dating and of course it was like one night stand type of situations.
So, you know, it's not good for anyone involved and progressively as I got more, you know, like dysgenic and unhealthy, you know, the ladies I'd bring home were kind of following suit with that.
What do you mean?
Less healthy, bigger women, and you know, lower and lower standards, I'd say.
Okay, got it.
So you get to your late 20s and then what?
Then I said, hey,
You know, maybe wanted to be dead every day isn't isn't the best.
How about we try?
So you were sorry when because I know you were talking about when you were in the single digits having that suicidal ideation and yeah, that came back in your 20s.
Is that right?
So that that just was a permanent thing throughout my my my life I suppose until I hit 28 where I was just that would kind of be comfort to me thinking about not being here anymore.
I did.
When did you first start listening to what I do?
Um, I think 20
13, I was first exposed.
I don't know the timeline exactly, but watching you pawn liberals on the internet was like, you know, was awesome, you know.
And, you know, people would share on the sites I would go to and be like, hey, listen to this guy.
He's got all these thoughts and this and that.
You know.
I like that as a tagline.
Steph, he's got all these thoughts.
That's a good tagline.
It's like, there's my biography, all the thoughts, all these thoughts, not those.
Okay, go on.
But when did you, so I guess you listened to some of the political stuff or the debate stuff and so on.
Was there anything that drew you to like the more personal stuff or the life stuff or the call-in show stuff?
Of course, the call-in shows.
I love those, you know, that you were so insightful.
Um, and, and you kind of like put the blame where, where it belonged, you know, on the, on the parents, um, you know, on the adults in the situation.
And, but you also, you also gave responsibility to the person for their choices.
You know, you're not a forever infant, you know, who gets to walk around and make dumb mistakes because what your parents did.
So it was just like all that together was new.
But of course, you know, um, it didn't, it didn't really stick until more recently.
But you said at 28 you got obviously sick and tired of, as you said, marinating.
Yeah.
And what happened then?
I just, you know, I just tried to change everything.
I tried to get to the gym, go on walks, you know, try to eat better, to just change everything and to start reading.
I started reading a lot.
And was there a particular moment or again that accumulation thing?
Just an accumulation, you know, of all that time just
Every day wanted to not be here, but nothing ever got better.
So it was just like, well, this isn't, this isn't working.
Like, let's, let's do something else.
And what were your games of choice in your twenties?
Uh, I, well, listen, oh my God.
I have like, I think three and a half years.
Of in-game time for World of Warcraft.
Actively in the game, playing it for three.
Entire was it, was it social as well?
I mean, was there, yeah.
Cause you, you like Leroy Jenkins stuff, right?
You, you have, you have other people that your voice, it was voice chat too.
Was it?
Yeah.
Yeah, of course.
And I was, I was, I was important, you know, wherever I was and
I was the guild leader and I was the raid leader, you know, whatever little video game titles.
You were learning some skills, right?
Some social skills, some leadership skills, some planning skills.
I mean, it's not the worst thing to do.
You're, you know what?
I didn't think about it like that.
I like, I like to think about it like that a lot more than how I was thinking about it.
Thank you.
Yeah.
I mean, there's some things that you could learn.
From video games that are actually useful in life and particularly the social games and the planning and all of that, right?
Yeah, yeah, of course.
And the leadership and the resource management and the, you know, right tools for the right job stuff.
It's, you know, honestly, there's, I mean, you weren't on heroin, right?
You were actually learning some skills and you were having some kind of socializing, right?
I mean, you might not have made it otherwise.
Without the video games, you might not be here.
Yeah, yeah, certainly.
Or maybe it would have kicked you out early.
I don't know, right?
But I wouldn't myself.
I mean, I understand that's a bit of a jaw-dropping amount of time, but it is something that may have kept you alive and may have given you some good social skills, which I'm not sure how you would have gotten otherwise.
Yeah, very true.
Other than maybe joining some bizarre cult or something in which, you know, would have been much worse.
So yeah, kick yourself if you want, but you got to look at the upside as well.
And you know, I actually can't take any credit.
Um, well, I mean, I suppose I can, but what really got me to change everything was my father and his new wife were moving to a new state and they said, get the hell out.
So, you know, once I was out of that situation,
And had to do things on my own.
That's when I really started to improve.
Yeah, this is just a general shout out to parents.
Don't let your kids rot in the attic for eight years.
Or ten years, I guess.
Eighteen to twenty-eight.
Okay.
Yeah, it's just a general thought.
You know, just don't have a pulse in the house that you don't interact with.
That's not a good thing.
All right.
Okay, so you're hitting the gym.
What are you doing for money over this time period?
Over the twenties?
Just working.
Oh, so you weren't doing nothing.
You had a job.
I had some part-time jobs when I was in college, like as, uh, uh, you know, at grocery stores and then at one of those big, uh, warehouse stores.
Okay.
So you had some, some work and that's where you, and I guess your living expenses were pretty low cause your dad's paying for most of it, right?
Yeah, of course.
Okay.
And not much interaction with your dad, you said over the course of this time?
Not much, you know.
Again, I was like the black sheep in the family because I had these edgy jokes and this edgy humor and edgy information, you know, that people didn't want to hear, you know.
Isn't it funny?
They're totally accepting of the woman who gives drugs to her children, some unknown drugs to her children.
That's fine, but you better not have an edgy joke.
Yeah.
Heroin addiction.
Yeah, we could roll with that.
But you better not have an edgy joke!
Yes, of course.
Because we have standards, man!
That's insane.
But I mean, it's quite common, right?
Yeah, of course.
Torturing your children driving drunk?
No problem.
Edgelord Comedy
Big problem.
Yeah.
Ugh!
Ugh!
Gabriel, blow the trumpets.
All right.
So, you get your own place, late twenties, and then what happens?
Is this roughly when you meet your wife-to-be?
Yep.
That's when I graduated from college, too, and started a new job.
I met her at work.
Did you get the job with your degree, like a social work kind of thing?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So, I assume this is a government job?
Yeah, well, you know... So, you're a little past a libertarian at this point, right?
Yeah, well, you know, it's, you know, working inside these facilities, you really get to see how much, where the money goes, and it just goes into the pockets of people.
On paper, they say, yeah, well, we're going to rehabilitate, and then we're going to show them how to, and we're going to do this.
And when you get there, it's like, yeah, this is where they stay, and then they die, and we get a new person to come in and take their bed.
It's like, whoa, you know, so, you know, it's eye opening.
And I guess you were in a significantly gynocentric environment.
Oh, yeah, still am.
Right.
Still am.
I mean, any day, you know.
You're like the Pasha.
Okay, like the Sultan.
Yeah.
Okay, so you meet your wife at work and you start dating and then I guess the relationship works out and you now have a baby.
I don't mean it far forward.
Is there anything you wanted to throw in there?
No, sir.
Right.
I mean, you know, I would say that if I could go back in time,
She wouldn't be, uh, well, she might not be the woman I end up with.
Um, you know, just, you know, cause maybe I would have chose we were so, we have so many differences and sometimes that's a good thing, but, um, you know, no, I don't know.
You say, you know, I don't know.
It's just not when you talk about how you are with your wife and how you enjoy,
Spending time with each other and how it's just it's just magic and and all and that that great stuff is just not entirely my experience, you know, there's Some arguing and some some work and I I know how horrible it is to argue in front of a baby So that's I'm taking that off the table During her pregnancy.
I did argue with her a lot though.
And I didn't what you what did you argue with her about?
Just, just things that, that, that can't be changed at this point.
No, no, no.
I don't need a description or abstractions.
What in specific did you argue with her about?
You know, I don't like this behavior.
I don't like that behavior.
Okay.
And what, I can keep, I can keep going as long as you want.
What behaviors, what did you say?
What behaviors did you want to change in her?
Um, I, I'm trying to think.
I, I really, I, I go through these cycles where.
You know, I'm happy as can be with her.
She's perfect for me to where I'm looking for something to be upset with her about.
And, um, I, I'm trying to give me more abstract.
I'm going to, I'm going to focus.
You must remember something you've criticized your wife about.
It doesn't have to be during the pregnancy.
Like, Oh, I don't know what you're fighting about or, or what the level of, of languages.
Yeah.
Um, uh, I have, I have, you know, harped on her.
For her weight and kind of her inactivity.
I know you can't really, if you're not an active person before you're pregnant, then you shouldn't be while you're pregnant.
And was she overweight before she was pregnant?
Certainly, certainly.
Not as much as she is now.
And how much overweight was she?
Did she gain weight over the six or so years that you were dating?
Yes, yes, yes.
And how much weight did she gain?
I think she was 180 pounds when we first met, 185.
And now, well, during the pregnancy, of course, she gained some weight, so during that time she was at 240.
I think she's now down to 230 or something.
How tall is she?
She's 5'3".
Oh my gosh!
Yeah.
Oh my gosh!
Okay, so how much did she weigh?
I guess this may be the penalty of the porn-laced chubby chasing in your 20s, I don't know, but how much did she weigh when you met her?
Uh, probably around 180.
Okay.
So she didn't gain much weight over the course of your dating, right?
No.
Okay.
Okay.
And she gained 60 pounds over the course of pregnancy?
Uh, well, she, no, it was, she probably only gained like, I think she gained like 25 pounds when she was pregnant.
Sorry.
I thought she, I thought she went from 185 to 240.
Yeah, that was over the six year period where we were together.
Sorry, don't understand.
Okay, so you meet her, she's 185, and how much does she weigh roughly when she gets pregnant?
About 220.
Oh, okay.
Okay, so she put on like a good 35 pounds over the course of your marriage, right?
Yeah.
Which is a lot for a 5'3", right?
Yeah, of course.
No model myself.
What's your height and weight?
I'm 5'6".
I think right now I'm 2'25".
Yeah.
And is that all muscle?
I do like the gym.
I do.
All you have to do is find a way for the gym to like you back.
So what do you mean?
So you like the gym, you're 5'6", 225.
Yeah.
Unless you have to turn sideways to get through a door, because if you're delts, I'm not sure how that plays.
No, no, I certainly, I'm, I'm certainly at, or maybe above 30% body fat.
Yeah.
You think?
Yeah.
But it's just to, I, I've actually, I, when I put on all this weight,
And I started hitting the gym, like people... No, hang on, sorry.
Yes, sir.
You started hitting the gym at 28, right?
Yes, sir.
And how much did you weigh then?
I was probably, I mean, I was doing a starvation thing, just for no reason.
I just stopped eating and I got down to 120 pounds.
And again, I stopped... Wait, 120?
Yeah, and I said, this isn't working out for me.
How about we change weights?
Wait, you, sorry.
You got down to 120 pounds.
Yeah.
I mean, doesn't that seem kind of suicidal to you?
Oh, sure.
Sure.
Sure.
So this is part of the don't want to live thing, right?
Yeah, of course.
Of course.
I mean, okay.
Sorry.
I just wasn't sure if we were both on the same page.
I mean, it makes, yeah.
Okay.
So hang on.
So you say more than 30% body fat.
I just got to get your, I want to just get your BMI.
Oh, it's, it's, it's, if it's not a morbidly obese, I don't know if that's a category, but I'm pretty up there.
I'm in the red, I think.
Okay, so you've got, you're 5'6 and 2, what was it?
Um, 2.25, I'll say.
2.25, okay.
Yeah, your BMI is 36.3.
So, I'm no doctor.
Yeah.
But that's not good.
Okay.
No, no.
Okay, so you've almost doubled your weight from this low point where I assume you could play xylophone on your ribcage.
Um, yes, sir.
And you know, I, it's just that when I, when I started hitting the gym and I got bigger, I went from being like a target of someone who is bullied to, to, to not that, you know, so it's just, it's kind of, it is kind of addicting to not be, um, so when people see and to be scared all the time and
You know, to be something that's more imposing, you know.
So how did you, how did you, did you gain the weight over the course of your relationship?
What did you go from and to over the past seven years?
I think I, I got up when I met her, I was also at 180.
And then I just, I just kept on eating.
I told myself I wanted to stop at 200, but, uh, you know, uh, I, I haven't obviously, so.
And what do you think is going on?
We, I just, unhealthy eating habits.
No, no, I understand that.
Yeah.
I understand that gaining weight is the result of unhealthy eating habits, but why?
Why, why at the end, why are you doing unhealthy eating habits?
Some of it's, um, intentional.
Intentionally overeating.
Obviously, she loves to eat.
She cooks.
All the food is real, but the amount of food that we eat is obviously way more than a person needs.
Have you tracked calories?
How many calories are you eating a day, do you think?
I would say at least 4,000 for me.
She's tracked calories when she's tried to lose weight before.
And, you know, I try to encourage her to do it again.
You know, because we want to have... You're trying to encourage her?
Yeah, yeah.
You're trying to encourage her?
So that kind of doesn't work out, I guess.
Well, I mean, don't you have to model the behavior, right?
Be the change you want to see in the world.
I think you have to model that stuff, don't you?
Yeah, of course.
All right, and do you find each other less attractive?
Is there lower sexual activity or lower romantic activity because of the weight or is it not much of a factor?
No, certainly is an issue we struggle with.
Of course, you know, me with the porn addiction, I haven't, I've certainly reduced it.
A lot.
Um, since, since, you know, my awakening or whatever, but it's, it's, it's still present and maybe it's only reduced because, uh, you know, my libido is just not, you know, what it was when I was 16 or whatever, but.
Well, the weight, right?
Yeah, of course that too.
And that, that has been also an issue.
Uh, but, um,
You know, I am aware of that and I know in order to have like a healthy marriage with, you know, sex needs to be a part of it.
So I do work on making sure that I'm intimate with her.
So you're not in a sexless marriage.
Okay.
No, no, no.
Good.
Good.
I mean, obviously you got a kid, but okay.
Got it.
So you, uh,
Bug her to lose weight.
Is that right?
Yeah.
And to get active.
Yeah.
And you know, sorry, go ahead.
I, I, you know, when my, the, the things I've learned from my mother to, to like, to manipulate and to, to prod and to needle and to, you know, I, I have all that, um, you know, all those abilities and I, I certainly use them on her.
Um, and what does, what does that look like?
It's, you know, like,
Poking at her insecurities or Or just say, you know, sometimes I you know, I Don't I'm not sure because she's from a she actually is from a different country She's from South America And her second language is English so there's kind of like
Sometimes there's a barrier between communication between the two of us.
And, you know, I don't believe she's as insightful as, you know, maybe I would have liked in a partner.
Sorry, you're kind of verbally manipulating her, yelling at her and putting her down, but her level of insight is not up to your standards?
Yes, sir.
What are you talking about?
Yeah.
I mean, seriously?
Yeah.
Have some humility, bro.
Yeah.
No, really.
Really?
Have some humility.
How dare you say that your wife's insights are not up to your standards?
Yeah.
When you said you verbally abused her at the beginning of the relationship, you're still manipulating her and putting her down, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Acting like your mom around her and, oh, but her level of insight, you see, is just not up to my high lofty standards.
Yeah.
Like, what are you doing?
Yeah.
No, no, don't yeah, yeah, yeah me, like engage.
What are you doing?
I don't know.
I mean,
Yes, you did!
I tried to get rid of her early on in our relationship, just by being horrible to her, and she just stuck around.
You tried to get rid of her early on by being horrible to her, and how long into the relationship was that?
It was years of it, years, certainly.
Wait, you spent years being horrible to her, trying to drive her away?
Yeah, yeah.
Why?
No, no, come on, her level of insight is not up to your level of insight.
So you must have a good level of insight.
So why would you horrible to her?
Why were you abusing her to drive her away for years?
I'm struggling.
But you must have asked this question of yourself at some point.
Oh, you know, I just, maybe, you know, maybe I didn't think she was the one for me, so.
I had to get rid of her and, you know, she would end up crying.
No, but then you say, I don't think that, I don't think you're the one for me and we're broken up.
I don't understand this trying to get rid of her stuff.
And, and, you know, I, I have said that to her before as well.
So, you know.
Sorry, when did you say to her, you're not the one I want to break up?
Probably, uh, so many times and including during her pregnancy.
Oh, no.
As sad as that is to say, you know, I, I'm worried.
It's not sad.
It's malevolent.
Yeah.
You said to a pregnant woman, you're not the one I want to leave you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What are you doing?
I know.
No, you don't know.
Yeah.
Cause you don't even know why you're doing it.
So you've been verbally abusing and neglecting and rejecting the entire course of the relationship.
Is that right?
That's correct.
Is she a masochist?
Um, probably.
Does it turn her on to be put down?
I don't know.
No, no.
Women seem to like Fifty Shades of Grey.
I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Uh, you know, I do, I do tell her, you know, I'm going to do better.
I'm going to stop all this.
No, but that's bullshit because you don't, right?
Yeah, of course.
Okay.
I mean, unless there has been a big improvement.
No, I wouldn't say, you know, just because this week I haven't argued with her doesn't mean I've made a big improvement.
Okay.
So what do you want from this conversation?
What do you want from me?
I wanted to, what's really been bugging me stuff is, um, this, the thing that kind of, that kind of woke me up was, um, it was two years ago, it's 2021.
Um, I got a call from my sister, my older sister, and she said that my younger sister, uh, wrapped something around her neck.
And she hung herself in the bathroom.
But did she die?
Yeah.
She was 14.
At that point, I was an adult.
I worked in social work.
I knew she was being abused.
Right.
And we were talking about older siblings, helping out younger siblings.
Now she's a half sister, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Were you in touch with your, uh, tell me about the history of your relationship with your parents and I'm sorry to interrupt this.
I just want to know where that is regarding this story from 2021.
Uh, well I did at that point, um, my father, so he moved away.
Um, and I moved out.
Yes.
When you were 28, right?
Yes, sir.
Okay.
About two years later, I'm 30.
Um, he wants me to come move to his state.
He lives in, he says, come with me, come live in my house.
Why did he want you?
He didn't want you to come.
Yeah.
He said he wants you to come.
What changed?
The whole family's down there.
Come here and get out of there.
Get out of that state.
Um, I, I'm not sure what changed.
Cause we had a, we had a talking relationship over the phone.
That was, that was adequate, you know?
So he was like, come over here.
Sorry, when did you confront your parents?
Uh, probably, probably, um, 2022.
Oh, so after your half sister kills herself.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And my father before that actually, but.
Oh, your mother was 2022.
Yeah.
Okay.
And when was your father?
Probably 2020, because I did end up going down there.
I took my wife.
I said, hey, I'm going down here if you want to come.
I promise I'll be better, this and that.
Wait, so was she your wife at this point?
No, I mean, I'm just calling her my wife.
So you said to your girlfriend, I'm leaving to go to another state.
I guess you can come if you want to.
Yeah.
You are cold, man.
You are cold.
I did promise.
I said, hey, I'll be better.
I'll spend time with you, this and that.
You don't spend time with her?
Not, I mean, I still, I still, you know, sit on my computer a lot.
I don't always spend as much time with her as I, as I should.
Okay.
All right.
So you say, I'm going to move.
If you want to come along, feel free.
She comes along.
And I, in my head, I'm thinking, okay, great.
I'm going to teach my father all this stuff I learned and we're going to have a relationship and, you know, before, before, you know.
Sorry, what stuff have you learned?
Just eating healthy and walking and lifting weights and reading books and all this, like all my, my new, like bigger for life.
I was, I wanted to share that with him.
And of course I, I got down there and it was, you know, none of that, you know, none of that was, was actually happened.
He divorced his wife, my stepmother, so we were kicked out again.
And we were staying in hotel rooms and these nasty hotel rooms with meth users and all this stuff.
But yeah, I mean, before that, before I got kicked out, I did confront him and I said, hey... Oh, and you're just basically back to the shitpits of your childhood in a way, right?
Yeah, of course.
Okay.
Sorry, go ahead.
And I said, Hey, listen, I'm not happy.
And that's when he gave me the whole thing where it was just like, Hey, um, I did the best I could.
And maybe I don't think I was that bad.
I think a lot of this stuff's in your head and, you know, he he's always insinuated that I was crazy or there's something wrong with me.
So, you know, it's just what he, he continued to do.
So after that packed up and left, um,
And then after, after my.
Sorry, where's your, where's your wife in all of this?
Is she going through the meth motels with you or?
And she, yeah, yeah, of course.
And you know, she was very sheltered, very sheltered girl.
Um, when I first met with her, actually she, whenever I would curse, she'd be like taken back and she'd be like, please don't curse around me, this and that.
Cause she just wasn't used to it.
Um, so it was all like very shocking for her.
And scary to be alone like that and not have your, your family around to help you.
And then I got the call in that one of those, those hotel rooms that my sister killed herself.
And I still, I still was open, you know, at the funeral, I, you know, my mother was obviously a pariah, you know, and I couldn't let her be alone.
So I did go sit next to her and I,
I was, you know, there for her.
Um, and, uh, but, but later on, I said, Hey, you know, I, she, once she found out my wife was pregnant, she was like, Hey, I'm going to come where I'm going to come live with you.
I'll take care of your wife, this and that.
And she was like, trying to, I was like, Whoa, this isn't even a good idea to begin with.
You know, I shouldn't be talking to you.
Like you killed my, you killed my sister, you know?
What, um, what was your relationship with your sister?
It was, it was, she was, you know, uh, you know, kids, kids just want to, to be, to get attention and be loved.
And, and I, uh, I wasn't always the best, uh, you know, if I did have to babysit her, I would like keep her arms length.
It'd be a chore more than an enjoyment.
Um, certainly that, and then she also... Sorry, how old were you when you were babysitting her?
This is also when your mother was drugging you, if I remember rightly.
Yes, sir, but that was only for a brief time when she was very young.
Later on, I would babysit her in my 20s.
So I was an adult at this point.
Still a child in how I played video games all day and watched porn, but I was above the age of 18.
And then Black Lives Matter happened and everything, and she fell into that movement.
And of course everything I said was evil and this and that she she still like Was curious About me, you know, she wasn't like how my sister my mother were where I was like the devil, but she was like, hey Well, why do you you know think these things this and that?
But it was distant and even she asked me she asked me Before I left to to move the floor.
She's like, hey, you're gonna be leaving soon.
I
You know, come see me.
And I was, you know, I was, I was scared of driving at the time.
So I just, I didn't make that, that trip to go see her.
And sorry, what year was that?
That was, that was probably 2020, 2019, you know, a year before she killed herself for two years.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So she wanted you to come and see her, but you were not driving at the time.
I was driving, but it was just the, the idea of having to drive on the highways to get there was, was kind of frightening to me.
It's just, it wasn't a good, it's not good reason.
You know, I could have had my wife driver or anything.
Yeah.
Take the bus, anything, anything.
Um, and then even the, the week, and there was always this fantasy in my head that I'm going to get on my feet.
I'm going to get this place and I'm going to take her away from that, the house she's in right now where she's being
Her neglect was worse than mine.
And, and, uh, the father started a new family and she was obviously a needy six year old.
Uh, and the, the baby needed attention.
So they would keep her locked in the, in the downstairs part of the house away from her.
Um, she was, she was bullied and they locked her in the basement.
It essentially is like the bottom part of the house.
They wouldn't let her up.
To be around the baby and to be with the rest of the family.
Yeah.
My God.
Yeah.
And she was, how long was she with her father for?
Um, she was with her father until, until she passed.
They would, you know, the police would be out there every week.
Why would the police be out there?
Just cause she, she, instead of just what parents do these days, instead of just giving your child love and listening to them and
And being there for them, uh, they choose to not do that.
And she was uncontrollable in the way where they, they weren't able to, to, to give her those things.
So she had behaviors and maybe acted out.
Sorry, why was the police out there?
It's so abstract.
Why were the police out there?
Well, when, well, parents do nowadays when their child's running around.
Was it drugs?
Was it, was it partying?
It was just screaming.
It was just her.
Running around screaming and having the neighbors, Hey, there's a kid screaming over here.
Come, you know?
And so the police have to respond.
Do you know why she was screaming?
You know, just cause they would have arguments and he would take her iPad or whatever from her.
And you know, when that's your only source of entertainment, it's kind of means a lot to you, I suppose.
Okay.
Okay.
And do you know, did she do any drugs or?
I don't believe so.
I mean, she eventually started going to the city with my mother.
When she was older, but she killed herself soon after that, so I don't know.
Sorry, she started going to the city?
Yeah, to a nearby city where my mother is staying, and she started to go there.
Oh, so she got in touch with your mother, and then after that, not necessarily because of that, but after that she killed herself.
Yeah, of course.
Sorry, when you say of course, I'm not sure what you're saying of course to.
No, I'm just saying it.
I apologize.
Oh, that's fine.
And do you think that if you had a place to take your sister, do you think that your father would have released her?
Her father?
It's a possibility.
It's never been talked about, I think.
No, no, I mean, just do you think?
Yeah.
It's a possibility, sure.
Cause I mean, if the police are coming by every week and she's screaming and, and whatever, right?
He wanted to get rid of her and he also didn't want to get rid of her in that sinister way, but just, you know, like her have a place to be and cool off.
Yeah.
And she ended up going to some of those, you know, uh,
Psychiatric facilities that they have set up.
Um, so she probably was on some pretty heavy drugs.
I mean, illegal moment could be.
And so you had this, how long did you have the fantasy or, or the idea or the ideal of rescuing your sister?
Oh, I mean, you know, intentions.
I had the intention of doing it, uh, since, since I was an adult, kind of, it just never,
You know, intentions don't mean anything unless you actually act on it.
So you spent three and a half years in Warcraft, but you can't find a place for your sister?
Yeah.
Sorry, I can hear some background noise.
I'm not sure if you're playing.
I'm playing with things.
I apologize.
And did you have a sense of escalating crisis with your sister before she killed herself or was it a complete shock?
It was a shock.
I mean, you know, she was just pushed aside.
She's been pushed aside so long.
It's just something to be dealt with and to, oh, we had to deal with her.
I mean,
That it was a shock, of course.
And she did want to see you and spend time with you, right?
Yes, she did.
And how much time did you end up... I mean, there was a time you didn't drive, but was there phone calls or, I don't know, video calls?
There was... maybe once a year there was a phone call.
She did come down to spend Christmas with us, the year before she killed herself.
And how was that?
It was lovely.
It was lovely because I was, I understood at that point, at least a little bit that, you know, children, you know, everyone's talking to her like an adult.
Like, they're like, she has this problem.
She has that problem.
She needs to fix this.
She needs to fix that.
I'm like, well, she's a child.
So how about we just talk to her like a child and see how, you know.
So how long was she with you?
Uh, just about a week.
And is there a reason why she couldn't stay longer?
I mean, I know she's got school and all of that, but you know, you can, you can remote that stuff.
You can, right.
There's a lot of different options.
I mean, how did you feel about sending her back?
No, no, no real reason.
I didn't, I didn't really feel anything, you know, it was just back to the norm.
Yeah.
But you have this whole,
Want to rescue her for like 10 years, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So she's with you.
Yeah.
What happened to the rescue her thought?
I, I just wasn't, I wasn't ready.
I wasn't on my feet, this and that.
I don't, I don't know what that means.
That's, that's just a bunch of words for me.
What happens?
Like you got this fantasy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um,
Well, this is when me and my wife were at my... Sorry, if you could please stop playing with the stuff in the background, it's really distracting.
I would throw it away from me, sorry.
I'm really trying to give you a lot of attention here and I'd really appreciate it if it wasn't distracting clicking sounds in the background.
Yes, yes sir.
Okay.
That was when me and my wife moved in with my father again and his wife.
You know, it wasn't really my decision.
To another state?
Yeah.
So it wasn't really my decision to, to keep her since I didn't own the place.
Not that I would have.
But you and your wife both have jobs at this point, right?
Uh, I, we were getting the, the money from the government, uh, during the COVID handouts.
Oh, because the social work field was closed down?
No, just cause if you, I mean, if you quit your job during that time, if you just weren't working,
They would just give you, give you money.
You know, it was wild.
Um, and we were getting paid better than what I was making when I was working.
Just, they were just paying people to not just be home.
So, so you, you, you and your wife both quit your jobs to get government money.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you had enough money to put your, your sister up and not move in with your dad, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So why did you move in with your dad?
Um,
I'm not, I'm just, I'm genuinely curious.
I'm not trying to be some big critic here.
I've just, you're making tons of money from the government for free.
So why do you need to move in with your dad?
That was just the plan.
You know, we'd go move to this new state.
It was supposedly better there economically and, um, you know, all the families there.
So I would go down.
So, so we moved down there and you know, eventually the intention was to, to take her once I had my own place and a job.
Sorry, didn't you have your own place in the state that she came to you over Christmas?
No, no, I was with my father.
So she was staying there with me, my wife, my father, and his... Oh, I see, I see, okay.
Yeah.
And why were you staying with your father at that point rather than having your own place?
Because both you and your wife have professional jobs, right?
She... I have a job.
Um, I, I, we didn't have jobs then we were just getting government money.
Um.
No, no.
But before that you, you, you quit those jobs to get the government money.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
So why was she with us before that?
Um.
No, no.
Why didn't you have your own place?
I mean, you're in your thirties, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're in your thirties, you have a good job.
Your wife has a good job.
Why are you living with your dad?
Um, you know, just to, to,
To start new in that new state.
No, no, no, sorry.
Maybe I'm missing something.
I apologize.
No, it could be me.
So, your sister came to stay with you and your wife while you were living with your father.
Was that before your father moved to the new state?
That was after.
Oh, after, okay.
Yes, sir.
So your sister came to stay with your husband, sorry, with your father and his wife and you and your wife were living there.
Yeah.
And she came down for a week and then everybody sent her back to, she had, you said she had a lovely week with you guys and then everyone was like, go back to the house of abuse.
Yeah.
Go back to hell house.
Yeah.
And it was hell house because of the neglect or were there other things?
It was the neglect.
It was just such extreme neglect.
She would be sent to school without clothes that would fit her, so she was bullied for that.
There was a bed bug infestation at one point.
At her home or at the school?
At her home.
At her home, okay.
Yeah, so it was just like, you know,
And the screaming and the police every week and psychiatric institutions and so on, right?
Yeah, of course.
All that stuff.
So, and did anyone talk about helping her get out of that environment at any point?
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, okay.
When did that happen?
My sister reached out to me and she said, hey, you're a social worker, what can we do?
And I said, you know,
There's really nothing we can do.
You can file an abuse report, but, you know, if he wants to keep her, then they're not going to take her away.
And now that I... Sorry, if he wants to keep her?
Yeah.
I thought Child Protective Services, I'm not an expert, but I thought that they could take a child out of a home where the child was in danger or undergoing significant neglect.
Yeah, of course.
So, sorry, what do you mean when you said to your sister, there's nothing we can do?
Yeah.
I kind of attribute that to just the state of mind I was in at that point where I am not as capable as I am today.
Sorry, this was a couple of years ago, wasn't it?
Yeah.
So you're 30?
It was probably when I was like 23.
2028, probably early on like that.
Oh, so this is still when you were marinating, as you said, in the past, in your father's house.
So, but you've been studying social work for a long time, right?
Yes, sir.
Okay, so your sister says, what can we do?
And you say, nothing really.
Yeah.
But why?
I mean, that wasn't true, was it?
At the time I might have thought it was true.
No, but it's your sister.
Wouldn't you go to the professor and say, what can we do?
Wouldn't you ask someone in your program?
Wouldn't, I mean, this is your sister, right?
So help me understand.
I, um, I really, I really can't.
Yes, you can.
What is going on?
Like, help me understand.
It's, I just think I wasn't, I didn't, I didn't think
No, no, because you'd had these fantasies about rescuing her.
Your sister is like, is there anything we can do?
Now, the least thing you can do is you can go to, you or your sister could go to your stepsister's father and say, we'll be happy to take her for a while.
Yeah.
And I think there was some of that.
And that's, that's not even a social work thing.
Yeah.
Yeah, of course.
Okay.
So help me understand.
My sister kind of took the lead.
No, no, she's asking you for your semi-professional advice, because you've been studying this stuff for six years, right?
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Okay.
So you've had this fantasy about saving your sister, and your older sister is saying, help me save her, and you're like, there's nothing we can do.
Yeah.
I'm trying to figure that one out.
I don't know what to say.
Hey, if you want to go rubber bones, we can just stop the call.
I don't mean that as a threat, but I'm just saying, like, if you're just going to claim ignorance.
Because you already told me that you enjoyed the fact that I held damn adults accountable for their actions.
Didn't you say that earlier?
Yes, sir.
Okay, so I mean, here's the thing.
You think this is coming from me?
This is not coming from me.
You've already got this in your head.
Yeah.
Right?
You've already got... your conscience is asking these questions.
Yeah, yeah.
And if you go rubber bones on your conscience, things go badly in your life.
Yeah.
Which is why you're calling me.
Yeah.
Right?
If you're concerned that some action of yours caused your sister to be in harm and you're denying that fact, that might explain why you're feeling aggressive towards your baby.
Yeah, yeah.
I don't know.
But rubber bones is not an option in these calls.
I say this with great affection and I'm glad that you're calling me and I'm glad that we're having this conversation.
But rubber bones is not an option.
Okay.
Because if you were to say to, because it's kind of a fraud, right?
You know how these calls work.
And if you say to me at the beginning, hey, if you ask me any tough questions, I'm just going to go rubber bones on you.
I'd say, well, no, I've got like 50 other people who want to have this call.
I'm going to talk to the people who don't have this silly out.
Yeah.
So.
Why did you not help your sister or explore it?
I don't think I wanted the responsibility.
But your sister was taking the responsibility at this point, right?
Uh, yes.
Yeah.
Okay.
So it's not that.
What else?
I'm not sure.
I mean, I know I'm responsible.
I know.
I, I, I, I'm aware of that.
I know.
Okay.
What was the feeling?
What was the feeling in your heart?
What was the feeling in your heart when your sister said, let's help our kid sister, or I want to help our kid sister, or what was the feeling in your heart?
Yeah.
Um, I don't know.
I wouldn't say hopeless or, or I wanted to help her too.
Um, but it just felt like nothing, nothing would change.
Despair?
No, that's not quite it.
What?
No, no, that's... What do you mean nothing will change?
Hopelessness?
What do you mean?
I'm trying to sort of figure this out.
Because you're in social work, right?
And you're in social work because you think things can change, right?
Yeah.
So it's sort of like saying, well, I want to become a doctor.
And then someone says, I need some advice from you on health.
And you say, oh, no, there's nothing we can do to change people's health trajectories.
It's like, well, then why are you becoming a doctor?
Yeah.
So let's try that again.
Um, shoot.
I'm trying to remember exactly, because I remember where I was sitting exactly when, when she was calling me and texting me about it.
I was like, I don't know.
I, I just, I'm not sure.
I feel like, um, I just couldn't, that if he, if he wanted to keep her, then, you know, it's just, it would be difficult for, you know.
But you already knew that she'd been locked in the lower half of the household because they wanted so little to do with her.
Yeah.
So the idea that he's desperate to hang on to the daughter that he's locked out of his new baby's life.
Is not, it's not empirical, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So since it's not empirical, right?
There's no, in fact, there's evidence that he would be very happy to have her not in his household for a while, right?
Cause the police are coming by every week, right?
Yeah.
Psych wards and screaming and police activity.
So empirically it was absolutely worth exploring.
If I understand the story correctly, it was absolutely worth exploring.
Whether he might even jump at the chance to have her not in his household for a while.
Yeah.
Um, and so, so it wasn't that, so what else?
Despite my, um, you know, my reaction to my sister asking me for help, um, and my lack of help, uh, you know, she did, you know, she would have my sister over her place and,
She flirted with the idea of taking her in, but decided not to because she was... Okay, so, but your sister died.
Yeah.
Okay, so, it didn't work.
Now, I don't know whether it could have worked, who knows, right?
Yeah.
But I'm just... Your conscience is already down there processing this question, and I'm just trying to join up with your conscience... Yeah.
...to release you from your anger against your daughter.
Yeah.
So, why did you not try to help your sister?
Given that that had been a decade long dream of yours.
Yeah.
I mean, I think that's why he was kind of like a dream because like, you know, my, my other sister was reaching out and saying, Hey, we got to do something.
So it was like, Oh, I could go, I could help her.
And you know, I don't why I didn't do it.
You know, I don't, I would just say I was not.
Um, really a man of action.
Um, at that time.
Oh my God, man.
We're just circling the train here.
Yeah.
You didn't have to act, your sister was going to do it.
Yeah.
So what do you mean you weren't a man of action?
Nobody was asking you to join the Marines.
Yeah.
Right?
Yeah.
So that's not it?
I, um, hmm.
The question is, um, why didn't I help my sister?
Yeah.
Oh, why didn't you help your sister help your sister?
Or why didn't you try and figure out ways in which your sister could be helped?
Why didn't you, like, you're a social worker.
Your whole point is to help people, particularly children in need and distress.
That's the entire, and you've got six years of education in this area, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So why didn't you?
Say something.
Oh, I'll look it up.
Oh, I'll try and get the facts.
Oh, I'll call my professor.
I'll ask at school.
Yeah.
You had access to absolutely free legal and social resources to help your sister.
Yeah.
And maybe if you'd gone down that route, right?
If, if it had turned out, well, the abuse isn't bad enough to take her out of the home, right?
And your, oh, your half sister's father absolutely won't give her up.
Okay.
Then there's really not much you can do other than try and stay in touch with her and see how she's doing.
Yeah, of course.
That's the least.
But you called her once a year.
And I didn't even call her.
She would, she would call me.
So.
Oh God.
So you abandoned her?
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then when your sister came and said, I'm desperate to help her, you said, there's nothing that can be done.
Yeah.
Help me understand.
I, yeah, I, I know what I, excuse me.
I know what I did.
Uh, you know, it's not something,
I'm not looking for self-condemnation, it's just genuine curiosity.
Yeah, of course.
And, you know, I just want to be a good father for my daughter.
I want to answer, I just
I don't know.
I don't know why.
There's nothing good.
Okay, so there's two probable reasons.
These aren't facts.
These aren't true.
Okay.
Right?
These are just theories, and maybe they'll fit, and maybe they won't.
But there's two reasons, I think.
And again, if they don't fit, we'll just toss them, right?
Okay.
Number one.
How could you take a strong stand against an abuser when you're kind of abusive towards your wife?
Yeah.
Does that make sense?
Of course.
And do you agree with, I'm not saying you're only abusive of course, but do you agree with the general assessment that you've been pretty, as you say, you tried to drive her away by being verbally abusive for years and it's still going on even now, right?
Yes.
Okay, so how are you going to take a firm stand against an abuser?
You can't take a firm stand against the abuser yourself?
Yeah, of course.
So that's the price.
Unfortunately, to some degree, your sister paid the price, but that's the price.
There's always a price to be paid for being abusive, right?
Yeah.
And the devils in your heart are now saying, oh, your daughter's going to pay the price.
Yeah.
Right.
So you understand the price that you pay for being abusive
Is your capacity to pair bond, your capacity to love, your capacity to stand up for virtuous, your capacity to stand up against bullies and abusers.
Yeah.
Right.
That's the cold embrace of these red armed devils.
When they bring you into that club, that's the price you pay.
And the price you pay is often borne by others as well.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So
Are you aware of the price that you pay for being mean to your wife and the mother of your child?
I don't think so.
Okay.
Well, maybe that's why you keep doing it.
Yeah.
So, that's number one.
Number two, I think...
Harkens back to what you were telling me at the very beginning of this call about your sister.
That you have this, uh, forgiveness and, you know, uh, she, she had to escape and, and things like that when you were abandoned as a kid when she got out, right?
Mm-hmm.
Now, I could be wrong.
It's just the gut sense doesn't mean it right.
Sure.
I think part of what happened was,
Fuck you, sis.
Now you care about a kid.
Yeah.
Don't just yeah me, I don't know if that's real or not.
Yeah, um, let me... Like, if you do have anger towards your sister for failing to help you as a child, then when she comes to you with, we've got to help this kid, without acknowledging anything she did to you, or didn't do for you... Sure.
I can certainly see that.
I, um, you know,
I'm not sure if that was the intention.
I'm not saying unconscious motivation, I'm not even saying it is a motivation.
Yeah.
But I think it fits, it's a certain puzzle piece that fits, which again doesn't mean it's right.
Yeah.
It fits some of the information that I've got from you, but you're the final arbiter as to whether that may or may not be true.
It does certainly fit.
What's the status of your relationship with your parents now?
Um, I, after I said, well, first I invited my mother to the baby shower and I said, wait, this is a bad idea.
She showed up drunk anyway, but you know, we got rid of her.
Uh, but I don't talk to her anymore.
I don't want, I said, listen, if you want to repair things with me, that's fine.
Like, let's talk about that, but I can't allow you around my child.
I can't run abusers around my child.
You know, I mean, it's kind of funny because you know what I am, but.
Well, you're not an abuser, you're just keeping it in your head and dealing with it there, right?
Yes, sir.
But and then my father, I gave the same choice.
I said, hey, listen, I tried to make amends with you.
You don't want to acknowledge any of the things I'm upset with because of that.
Uh, you know, I don't want to have connection with you anymore.
If you ever change your mind, you know, reach out to me and I'll, I'll consider it.
But, you know, so I'm not, I'm not, uh, involved with either of them anymore.
And that happens when, I mean, you said the baby shower, I'm not sure when the baby shower was.
Well, it's when, when my, when my baby sister killed herself, that's kind of when I was like, that was like the real.
I mean, that was the real wake up call to be like, Hey, don't chuckle.
Don't, don't do it, man.
It's too weird.
Um, that was like the wake up call was like, Hey, wait, you know, maybe I'm not a good person.
Like there's something wrong here.
Like how, how could this happen?
Like,
I'm doing something wrong.
Okay, so you had the insight that you hadn't fulfilled.
And listen, please understand what I'm saying.
I'm not saying that you're responsible for the death of your sister.
Of course not, right?
I mean, you weren't her parent.
You didn't have any legal authority over her.
I mean, could you have been closer?
Absolutely.
Is there more you could have done to help your sister rescue her or maybe done something yourself?
Absolutely.
But it's her parents who raised her and who had control over her and custody of her and all of that.
So I just want to be really clear about that.
Okay.
I understand that.
I also know.
However, that's the kind of situation where you really do have to explore responsibility so that you don't have any hidden guilt that you're avoiding.
Yeah.
I mean, you could have done more, is that fair to say?
Of course.
I'm well aware.
And you know that when your older sister, because, you know, we had this little thing earlier in the call about how your older sister kind of abandoned you to be neglected and abused while she went off into the world with her friends, right?
So you knew how bad that was, right?
Yeah, of course.
And then she did that when she was, say, 14 years old, 15 years old, but you did that in your late 20s, right?
Yes, yeah.
So much less excuse.
Yeah, no excuse.
Now, whether that would have saved her or not, I don't know.
It could be, again, I don't know how dysfunctional she was, but it could be
That if you had tried to save her, she could have wrecked your life, too.
Of course.
It's a possibility.
It's completely unknown.
I could never say.
Well, I mean, but if you had put her on your... sister, then she would have taken that brunt, right?
Yeah.
So, when your sister says, we gotta rescue little sis, right?
Mm-hmm.
You say there's nothing we can do.
Was your perception or belief that it was too late?
Uh, I definitely had that thought before.
Um, tell me about that.
I certainly have.
I mean, I would, I would tell my father, I'm like, she's going to end up being a stripper, you know, cause the, you can't, I mean, you certainly can, but to survive, uh, that level of abuse and come out, you know,
Not an animal.
I'm sure it's pretty difficult.
And how old was your sister when you had these thoughts or had this conversation with your father?
That one was probably 2019.
She was 12 years old.
And what behavior of hers was giving you that thought?
It's not necessarily her behavior.
It was more
How her parents treated her.
Oh, just knowing the level of abuse she was going through?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you felt that she was doomed, but based on the level of abuse, is that right?
Uh, I've yet had those thoughts.
Yes.
And how would that relate to you?
I mean, you experienced significant levels, levels of neglect and abuse.
If she's doomed, are you?
I hope not.
Well, what's the difference?
And I'm not saying there isn't one.
I just want to know what the difference is in your mind.
Um, I, um, I'm not sure.
I'm not sure.
I, I, I don't know.
Okay.
Sorry, that's my baby.
She's been mad.
I'm aware.
Is your wife home at all?
Is there a chance, because it's going to be a bit distracting, I think.
I don't mind the baby being here, of course, but... Yes, sir.
No, she's not.
She'll be home soon, I think.
Okay.
Well, we can finish up, I think.
Yes, sir.
Soon.
Okay.
So, where do you think, we've had a long old chat now, where do you think the aggressive impulses towards your daughter are coming from?
It kind of makes sense.
You know, my conscience has always been something that has kind of come back to, you know, I've had tics where I would think of something and, you know, I know that's my conscience just like injecting these memories or whatever into my head of, you know, times I did something I regret.
And, you know,
It's probably just my... I actually forgot the question, I apologize.
Where do you think your aggressive impulses are coming from?
Just my failure to my baby sister.
Could be it as well.
And I, so generally if we're angry at the innocent, it's because we're not acknowledging our anger at the guilty.
Now, if you're angry at the guilty or is, is towards yourself, uh, for the, for the two major things, right.
Which is abusive towards your wife and not working harder to help protect your sister.
Yeah.
Right.
So if you get angry at yourself for your own,
Bad behavior, which we all have, like I understand.
I'm not like shaking my finger like Gabriel here from a high mountain.
We all have bad behavior.
But if you don't get angry at yourself for your own bad behavior or accept it or understand it or find a way to be at peace from it, to learn from it.
So how do I know you're learning from your bad behavior?
Because it's repeating with your wife, right?
Yeah.
I mean, you tell a pregnant woman, I wish you weren't with me.
Yeah.
That's, that's cruel, right?
It's horrible.
Yep.
So you're not angry enough at the right things, so you're getting angry at the wrong things.
So a couple of areas, of course, you, you haven't, I mean, when you were a kid, you'd write in the notebook, I remember I hate my mom, right?
But that hasn't taken, right?
Because your mom's come into your baby shower.
Drunk.
Yep.
And then you say to your mom, uh, I don't want to see you anymore, but hey, if you change, if you blah blah blah, then you said the same thing to your dad, right?
Yep.
So why would you, why would you say that?
I...
You know, I did, I was, I'm happy I got rid of, I cut them off.
But why would you say you're welcome back if dot dot dot?
Yeah, I think I just heard that before.
Okay, is that what you feel?
I don't know.
Why would you say that they're welcome back if they jump through some hoops or whatever?
Yeah.
When your wife, sorry, when your mother, after neglecting you, abusing you, instigating your father's sadistic violence against you, abandoning you, and giving you drugs and so on,
I mean, and being a heroin addict while she's a mother, and driving drunk, what the fuck could she do that would have her back in your life?
There's nothing.
There's nothing.
So, why would you say that?
I might have just said it because, you know, I listen to how you kind of coach
Um, how you would approach one of these situations.
And it's not like you don't put it on me.
I've never said, have I said to lie?
No.
Have I said, oh yeah, make sure you misrepresent your experiences with people.
Make sure you lie to people.
So if you say, well, if you say that there's nothing they could do to make up for what they've done.
Yeah.
Then if you say, well, Steph, the reason I lied to them is you're a philosopher who values the truth.
And I was listening to you.
Don't try it, man.
Don't slither me that way, bro.
I'm thinking it has something to do with manipulation.
I don't know.
If you heard this story from someone else, how angry would that person be with their parents?
They'd probably be pretty upset.
Be pretty upset?
Yeah.
Enraged?
Yeah, of course.
They'd be enraged?
Yeah.
Okay.
Have you felt that level of anger towards the parents who did you such harm?
Um, no.
Right.
Why not?
I don't, I'm not sure.
I can tell you why not, if you want.
Please.
Because you'll feel like real shit if you get really angry at abusive people because then you'll have to confront yourself.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah, that kind of makes a lot of sense.
Yes.
They're abusive, and it's absolutely unacceptable.
You're abusive, and it's absolutely unacceptable.
This is the mother of your child.
You don't get to pick and choose six or seven years after you commit to someone, impregnate them, and have a baby.
You don't get to say, oh, you're not enough, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, of course.
Sorry, did I mean to raise my voice?
No, it's okay.
She can't hear.
It's just bad opera.
Okay.
Do you understand that you still have something on the table which is called, I can be horrible to my wife?
Uh, yes.
Yes, I do.
Okay.
So why, why do you do that?
Because you give yourself permission to do that.
I do.
I do.
Okay.
So what if you don't give yourself permission to do that?
That's a good idea.
If somebody gave you a million dollars to be nice to your wife for a day, you could do it, right?
I bet you you're nice to your wife when you're at the mall or at the grocery store or at the airport.
Yes.
So you're perfectly capable of being nice to your wife.
Yeah.
And you have on the table of acceptable behavior saying the most horrible things to your wife.
Absolutely horrible.
Yeah, of course.
Right.
And it shouldn't be on the table.
And what also comes on the table is using violence or thinking of violence against your daughter.
Yeah.
Because if you can get your way, listen, you try to get your way with your wife by being verbally aggressive and abusive, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So you have, in particular in your relationships with females, I can escalate until I get whatever the hell I want.
That's a very true statement.
And then what do you do with your daughter?
I escalate.
In your mind, you escalate until she damn well does what you want.
That's right.
But that's from your wife.
That's how you treat your wife.
Yeah.
How could it be different?
Yeah.
That's the price you pay.
Your daughter is paying the price for how you treat your wife.
Yeah.
Because you can't hide anything from kids.
No, you can't.
So she'll see that coldness in your eyes.
She'll see that hostility and that rage in your eyes.
I would like, I don't know if that'll, it's kind of been a part of me.
I don't want that to be on the table for my wife, but I don't know if I'll be able to get rid of that entirely.
I don't know.
What do you mean, get rid of what?
That coldness and that hostility.
Well, I'm not asking you to rewire your brain because that's kind of impossible.
Yeah.
But you do have free will and self-ownership, right?
Yes, sir.
Can you stop yourself from saying mean things to your wife?
Absolutely.
Okay.
So, I'm not asking you to not have any thoughts or emotions, because that's kind of impossible.
Yeah.
I am asking you to not act on them in ways that are harmful to your family.
Yeah.
Can you do that?
Yes.
Can you apologize to your wife?
I can.
Can you mean it?
I think I can.
I hope so.
Well, she is the mother of your child, right?
That's true.
Yes.
And for whatever reason, rightly or wrongly, she stood by you in situations where few women would.
Yes.
Would you rather be alone?
That's a good question.
Without being a father?
I can't.
I can't.
No.
Yeah, because I mean that ship kind of sails, right?
Yeah, and that'll be worse.
Now, if you have some guilt about your sister, there's only one thing you can do.
You can't save your sister because she's dead, but you could save your relationship with your daughter.
Sorry, if you need to do something with your daughter, I'm certainly happy to wait.
Okay.
Do you mind?
No, no.
I'll just be a couple of minutes.
Thank you.
Hello?
Yes, hello.
Hey, I'm back.
Thank you.
No, no problem at all.
No problem at all.
All right.
So yeah, I would say those two things are probably the major issues.
that are going on to honor what happened to your sister, you need to commit to doing better with your wife.
If you confront your own capacity for manipulation, for negativity, for abuse, which we all have, and of course with the sympathy of this is how you were raised and this is how you were trained, so there is that causality which is important, but now you know the causality, you're all the more responsible for fixing it.
But if you can redeem yourself if you feel guilt about what happened with your sister by committing to learn the lesson of her death and not allow yourself to be lazy and inactive in the realm of kindness or abuse, I think that's the best you can do out of this situation.
And for the sake of your daughter, you need to not
Abuse her mother, obviously, right?
I mean, for the sake of your wife, for the mother of your child, for the sake of you, for the legacy of your dead sister, and for the future of your child, that behavior has to be off the table.
Now, that doesn't mean that all the thoughts will magically vanish, but it means without expression the thoughts can actually be understood, right?
So, you know, sort of the phrase, acting out.
Acting out is when we avoid our feelings.
By action that is the opposite, right?
So, a guy who's feeling vulnerable and humiliated will often react with anger and aggression to avoid the feelings of humiliation and so on, right?
And feeling less, right?
People who feel put down will escalate aggression to avoid their own feelings of humiliation.
So, it's when we act in the opposite manner to avoid
You attack your wife because you disrespect her for being with you, which means you disrespect yourself, and it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because if you act in a way
That is clearly not worthy of respect.
And then you say, well, I attack my wife because she is with me and I don't understand why.
So I don't respect her.
Then I act in ways that she couldn't possibly respect and she stays and all of that.
Right?
So you're kind of in this spiral of repetition and self-fulfilling prophecies.
Start acting in a way that your wife can respect.
And that will challenge the, I'm not worthy drumbeat that's going on in your head.
And how dare anyone want to be with me?
And don't they know what a piece of crap I am or whatever drumbeat is going on in your head that needs to be confronted, but you don't act out a feeling of humiliation and unworthiness by putting others down and being aggressive with them.
Cause you can't understand your bond, her bond with you.
So you keep attacking your bond with her, right?
But you already have a child, so your child absolutely requires that you feel worthy.
Do you understand?
Yeah.
You have no choice in this matter.
You already have a child, and your child...
Can't see you acting out this weird psychodrama of I'm not worthy, I'm not worthy.
If you don't feel like you're worthy, okay, don't get married, don't have a kid.
But you got married and you have a kid.
So now you have to find a way to be worthy!
And the first way to be worthy is stop abusing people!
Does that make sense?
It makes perfect sense.
Sorry, you're so quiet I can barely hear you.
I apologize.
It makes perfect sense.
Okay.
So yeah, those were my suggestions.
Have you thought about talk therapy in the here and now?
Because I would think it could be quite helpful.
I have thought about it.
It's just, I work with therapists and I wouldn't trust these people to
Well, you wouldn't necessarily want to work with a government therapist or whatever is going on there, right?
I mean, there's private people who can do great work.
I'm a big fan of internal family systems therapy.
So, I mean, I think it would be worthwhile because if you stop acting out the bad behavior
The feelings will then start to rise up and you might need some help with those feelings.
Like whatever's down underneath this aggression.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's probably what's been going on, too.
I mean, underneath the rage at people not taking care of you is the pain of not being taken care of.
But it's easier to then transmit that into rage, and then it's easier to transmit that into virtue signaling, like, well, mother and father, I'm still superior to you because I'd welcome you back if you changed while knowing deep down that they won't, and all of that stuff, right?
That's a long way from the actual original feelings of pain at having been ignored and exploited and manipulated and threatened and bullied and, right?
It's a lot of layers to that original pain, and as you stop acting out, you'll get down to the layers, I think, of the original pain, and you might need some help with that.
Because as you start to get down to the original pain, the defensive devils in your heart, that are also in my heart and everyone's heart, just so you know, I don't want you to feel alone in this.
Yeah, of course.
When you start to get the original pain, the defensive devils will say, oh, go act out.
Yeah, we can make these feelings go away.
Just go yell at your wife.
Yeah.
Right.
We can make these feelings go away.
Just think negatively about your daughter, right?
Yeah.
And that's going to be tempting, right?
Yeah.
And so I think having somebody in your corner who can help you with the feelings would be pretty important.
I'd like to say essential, but that sounds like I'm telling you what to do, which I don't do, but I think it's pretty important.
I, I, um, I, I value
What you have to say very, very highly, so.
I've got a whole podcast, you can find it.
FDRpodcast.com, just do a search for therapist, and there's, I think it's 1927, How to Find a Great Therapist, is sort of my thoughts on that, so hopefully you'll think of that.
And listen, I just want to say, first of all, I'm incredibly sorry for what happened to you as a child.
And also, what happened to you in your 20s without people standing up for you or saying, hey, what's going on with your life, or just kind of letting you marinate or rot in the attic in World of Warcraft.
I have huge sympathies for all of that.
And also, as I said at the beginning, massive respect for calling in with these difficult topics.
It's very, very brave, and I think very wise, and I really admire you for that.
And I also admire you for the amount of work you've done in philosophy.
And your commitment to peaceful parenting and so on.
So like really, really great stuff in there.
You've got a couple of rough edges, as we all do.
Yes, sir.
And you give yourself permission for things which you shouldn't do, which we all do.
So again, I don't want you to feel isolated or go into some sort of I'm so bad kind of stuff, right?
But I do think that you do have to just, you know, as I said, take the harsh language off the table and get some help with the emotions that might result.
But I really do appreciate the call today.
I will do that.
Thank you so much, Steph.
I'm going to continue listening to you every day and reading your books.
Thank God you're here.
I don't know what I would be if I didn't have your influence.
If it's any consolation, I don't know where I'd be without philosophy either, so I'm glad that we're able to find some use out of it.
