April 17, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:51:40
5471 I Was a Drug Dealer! Freedomain Call In
Hey Stefan, I’ve listened to your show on and off for about 6 years. I’ve implemented many things you’ve taught about parenting and philosophy into my life. I currently have a 10 month old son and lovely wife who I connected with using tactics you taught me and we even listened to your show together when we first started dating. Now for the bad stuff, I have found myself in a perpetual cycle of disconnection towards most of society. I definitely have a hard time hoping for any kind of good future. I have certain addictions that I struggle with that I’m not proud of. I have a brother who used to be my best friend and business partner who now won’t talk to me at all and hasn’t even met his nephew (my baby). My career and business plans have all grinded to a halt due to external conditions that I can’t control.I really struggle with how I view life and what I enjoy. To put it simply and directly, I feel I’m still very immature and I feel completely unmotivated to try hard in life despite the fact I have a a beautiful sweet son.I have deep seemingly unresolvable issues with family members that I think eat away at my joy and I can’t help but feel I’m watching our government system rob and abuse hardworking people to such a degree it feels like it almost pays not to work. It hurts because I struggle with addiction and deep cynicism towards normal life and I feel that makes me a time bomb of a problem for my son and his development. I don’t know what I’m going to tell him or what I’m guiding him to. I feel just as selfish and dopamine driven as when I was 17 while I feel the world is worse then ever.I know part of this weird feeling comes from some existential issues I’ve had from LSD use in my younger years paired with being raised in a heavy Christian cult where everyone spoke in tongues. I feel like everyone around me has some kind of psychosis and it makes me feel very lonely.I keep wishing I could have some kind of resolution with my family but I don’t see how. If I had to pick one issue I could really use your help with in the midst of that pile of complaints, I would say drug addiction. Why am I the way I am? Why is it I feel like I’ve lost resolve.Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!Get my new series on the Truth About the French Revolution, the Truth About Sadism, access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and more!See you soon!https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
Why don't you hit me with your questions, and we'll see what we can get done.
Okay.
Yeah, so you got my very long-winded message, and it's hard because there's so many details to it, and I've listened to so many of your calls, and I feel like
My situation really is pretty unique even though I feel like you've had everything under the sun because I feel like I've been homeschooled.
I really grew up in my, you know, since like 19 I've listened to your work and you encouraged a lot of how I viewed the world but
Nonetheless, I guess for a long time I just felt like I was impervious to a lot of the stuff with my family.
And a lot of it, like you've always said, people generally become less crazy when they get older.
But I don't think that was the case with my family.
People become less crazy.
I mean, I think there's certain extreme personality types that like criminals tend to age out of crime and borderline personality disorders tend to get a little less crazy.
But yeah, that's more of the extremes.
But anyway, so go ahead.
Right.
Basically, I felt like my life was in a really good spot.
I was doing really well in business with my other brother who we were homeschooled together.
I have my Christian parents who are pretty extreme in that, but I felt like it never really fazed me that much because I always did very well monetarily.
Eventually, I found a wife, a partner, and
me and my brother and all of these people we rented out our house to and everyone we're living together and things kind of went off the rails uh because my brother really did not like uh my partner and uh frankly sorry your brother sorry your brother did not like your partner yes okay
I'm not sure why that's such a huge deal, but I'm certainly... Do you want to just read me the message you sent?
Because I feel if we're starting halfway through, I don't... Okay, I'm sorry.
People who might listen to this don't really have the background.
Right, so... Yeah, let me pull it up.
Yeah, it's tough to start in the middle.
So I said, Hey, Stefan, I've listened to your show on and off for about six years.
I've implemented many things you taught me about parenting philosophy in my life.
I currently have a 10 month old son and a lovely wife who I've connected with using tactics you taught me.
And we even listened to your show together when we first started dating.
I found myself in a perpetual cycle of disconnection towards most of society.
I definitely have a hard time hoping for any kind of good future.
I have certain addictions that I struggle with and I'm not proud of.
I have a brother who used to be my best friend and business partner, who won't talk to me at all, and hasn't even met his nephew, my baby.
My career and business plans have all grinded to a halt due to external conditions that I can't control.
I really struggle with how I view life and what I enjoy.
To put it simply and directly, I feel I'm very immature and I feel completely unmotivated to try hard in life despite the fact I have a beautiful son.
I seem to have deep, unresolvable issues with family members that I think eat away at my joy.
And I can't help but feel I'm watching our government system rob and abuse hardworking people to such a degree that it almost feels like it pays not to work.
It hurts because I struggle with addiction and deep cynicism towards life and I feel that makes me a time bomb of a problem for my son and his development.
I don't know what I'm going to tell him or what I'm guiding him to.
I feel just as selfish and dopamine driven as when I was 17 and the world is worse than ever.
I'll condense it a little more.
I said, if I had to pick one issue I could really use your help with in the midst of my pile of complaints, I would say it's drug addiction and why I am the way I am.
Why it feels like I've lost resolve.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
Well, I mean, before we get to the present, of course, it's usually good to get with the past.
So, what happened for you as a kid and your upbringing and all that kind of stuff?
I always felt like my family was a little... I don't know how to say it.
Everyone around me said I had a very nice family.
I was insanely lucky.
Growing up, I had a dad who had a great job and we had like a nice house compared to people.
And in a lot of ways, like we had a nice zip line in our backyard.
We were homeschooled.
There's a lot of really good things.
But, you know, we were spanked as kids.
You know, the church we went to was very crazy.
They spoke in tongues.
It was very clicky.
And I grew up with
Three brothers I was a middle brother the second youngest and my older brother Beat me up all the time and my mom was very uh I guess Cold would be the word like she was cold, but then she also wasn't It was almost like bipolar she's the type of person that
Sometimes I feel like would almost like a laugh if you hurt yourself or like make fun of you for being clumsy.
But then other times would be very like, oh, like you poor thing.
Like, that's so terrible.
I love you.
Like, it was just so weird because to this day, it still doesn't make sense to me.
And she's still very much like that.
And.
Yeah, so that was my my upbringing, the big
Problem for me that always was, ever since I was a kid, uh, was I fell off about church.
I had friends there and I had to go there four times a week.
It was very rigorous, but even as a kid, the speaking in tongue stuff, I mean, I used to like almost laugh about it to myself.
It just felt so wrong, but it was very serious to my parents to a point where when I was 16 years old,
My refusal to keep going and my rebellion, you know, not going to church, just not really doing anything that my parents wanted me to do, smoking weed.
But really the church thing, they kicked me out of the house.
And so I lived at a friend's house for a while till I was about 18.
And then they had me move back in.
Um, and that was always like, I felt even to this day, my dad in retrospect says that he wishes he never did that.
And, uh, it came out later that he was secretly using drugs the whole time behind my mom's back.
Yes.
Uh, my dad, my dad was an ex heroin addict.
And uh, so he got a secret opioid prescription and uh,
So, while I was kicked out for smoking weed and being rebellious, my dad was doing opioid secretly behind my mom's back.
Okay, I appreciate that this is kind of ironic, but if you could do me a favor, the laughter is really, really disconcerting.
You know, like, you've said this about your brother, you've said this, like, you know, like, it's kind of messed up, right, this stuff?
So, like, the little laughter, I mean, I get that, you know, there's a kind of hypocrisy and all of that, but if we could just hold off of that, just because it is kind of disconcerting, because, I mean, this is pretty dark stuff, right?
So, sorry to be mean.
I don't want to sound mean or anything like that, but you get the point.
No, you're totally right.
You're totally right.
Felt like I'm losing my mind.
Like, I made a Photoshop edit of myself as the Joker one time, and used that tagline, I used to think my life was a tragedy, now I think it's a comedy.
Because, no, you're right, it makes no sense.
I don't even know why I laugh in those moments.
No, no, I mean, because you're inviting into, like, eye-rolling, and isn't it kind of strange, and how hypocritical, and it's like... So, how old were you, sorry, how old were you when you were kicked out of... Sixteen.
And you were kicked out of home.
Like, where were you, where, did you go to relatives?
Like, where did you go?
I stayed at a friend's house.
Um, they were- Your parents know that this was going to be happening?
That you were going to a friend's place?
Uh, they kind of had an idea, but I didn't even want to talk to them anymore.
It just got so, like, inflamed.
Oh, gosh.
And did they do this sort of with the full knowledge of the church and like this was part of their community thing?
So this church was really like... I don't even know how to describe it.
We were a few shades off of like Westboro Baptist and they would be like getting upset at people if they were sick for too long because they weren't attending.
Um, so my mom, not so much my dad, obviously, but my mom was really serious about it.
And I think that like, you know, that was above everything else to her.
She viewed it as like the church saved her life.
And what did it save her life from?
She was a single mother.
She got pregnant in high school with my oldest brother, and she was in a homeless shelter at one point with him.
Do you know the story of how she became a single mother?
Yeah, so she dated a coke dealer in high school, and obviously that didn't work out.
She did a coke dealer?
What do you mean, she had sex?
Sorry, that's kind of harsh.
I mean, that's fine.
No, she dated a coke dealer.
Okay, sorry.
And that didn't work out, obviously.
Okay, so she dated a coke dealer, and then obviously that went to crap.
And then how long was she alone for?
I think since
My oldest brother, gosh, I don't know if he was, I think he was 14, 14 or seven.
I know that's a big age gap.
I can't remember.
Okay.
Um, but yeah, my dad would always say, yeah, I was a parent from day one.
Wow.
And how, how, how did, how did they meet or how, how, how did he end up like,
Okay.
Yeah.
How did they, but you know, Hey, I got the, I mean, so I want to, I want to be the kid of the, I want to be the dad to the kid of the Coke dealer.
No, so no, it's totally, you know, that church, you accept Jesus, you become a new person.
It's a big community and they knew each other for a while.
And I think he even like my dad dated somebody else in the church for a little bit and that didn't work out.
But that was like,
You know, you didn't hold hands with someone till you got married.
You know, basically.
How old was your mom when she got pregnant with the coke dealer's kid?
I believe 18.
Oh gosh.
Do you know much about her childhood?
Yeah.
Um, her dad,
Abandoned her and her three brothers and the mom and went into the Coast Guard and he was a huge alcoholic.
And they didn't connect for like 25 years or something like that.
Wow.
Okay.
All right.
And are your parents still involved in this church?
No, the craziest thing was they actually, when I got kicked out, went through this metamorphosis of like about near the end of me, you know, being kicked out and them reconnecting with me, they came to the conclusion that they didn't like the church anymore either.
And they changed churches and that was a huge mass exodus from that church.
It went from like 300 people to now there's like 70 people there and a lot of people from that church go to a different church now.
So they kick you out at 16 and how long does it take for them to leave the church?
From that point it was like I'd say almost two years.
A year and a half probably.
Wow, okay.
I think I'm getting it.
And how long were you out of the Hob?
Close to two years, a little less.
Wow.
Wow.
What a story.
I'm so sorry.
Like, at every conceivable level, I'm just so sorry.
What an unbelievable mess.
And, sorry, how many siblings do you have?
Three.
And how did they deal with you being out in this way?
Well, so the brother I was very close with, who was a year and a half apart from me, he kind of loved it because he was willing to pretend in a way that I wasn't.
I hated that church.
I hated the people.
I didn't want to live my life that way.
And I think he didn't like it either, but he, you know, he would play along to get along and he would just have a double life.
And, um, he was really, really close with me.
And it's weird because I was his younger brother and we were homeschooled together, but I was always really popular and he wasn't.
So, you know, I would be invited to all these parties and I had all these people who
liked me and I mean I'm not trying to be like oh I was Mr. Cool but I had like hundreds of likes on my Facebook profile pictures and I was very popular with kids all you know my wife always jokes I went to I was homeschooled two towns over and I was more popular in her high school than she was and so my older brother... Oh you're like the Ferris Bueller with that
I don't know if you've ever seen that movie, but yeah, the sister is incredibly pissed at how popular he is, right?
Yeah, I mean, I really used the fact that I was homeschooled and had so much free time to connect with as many people as I could, and I just loved socializing and being anywhere but my home.
Right, right.
So my older brother, I was like his in to all the parties and everything.
So he got his license quickly.
And we were like a duo.
Nobody really liked him.
Everyone thought he was an asshole.
But because he was my brother, he got to come along for everything.
And we set up kind of like a party den at these people's basement that I was living at.
But like a pool table and cool lights and stuff and all the kids that we were friends with, we'll all come over and hang out.
And, uh, you know, I was pretty into drugs at that point.
So I was selling LSD at the time from that age, 16.
Oh gosh.
Okay.
And you were selling it to other kids?
Yes.
Wow.
Okay.
And so I introduced my brother and all that to that scene and so he liked it because it was like he could just hang out with me and get to live the life he wanted to and he had a place to chill and party and everything because I was living there.
At the friend's place?
Yes.
And the deal was that as long as I gave their father weed pretty consistently, I could stay there because they weren't using it.
Their father, so this is a bunch of drug addicts, right?
Your dad with the heroin and your friend's father with the weed, right?
Yeah.
He didn't work.
He was home all day.
Right.
Wow.
Okay.
All right.
So you're there and do you have any contact with your parents over the couple of years that you're away, the two years?
Very little up until we reconnected.
So they didn't really come and check on you?
Very little.
I think they tried to call a few times.
My dad came by once or twice, I can't remember.
And he was just like, oh, it seems like you're safe.
Well, I love you.
If you could stay off names, I'd appreciate that.
I'm sorry.
No problem.
Right.
Okay.
Okay, got it.
Okay.
And so, how did you end up coming back home?
Did they left the church and then, like, how did that happen?
The fun and novelty, like, I felt like I was kind of overstaying my welcome with that family, and I felt like, simultaneously,
Because they left that church, I think past a certain point they were like, all right, we should like probably get our son.
So they reached out to me and to that family and we're like, Oh, I started working for my dad.
That's what I, I don't know why I just thought of that.
Uh, I started working for my dad doing electrical with him.
Uh, he needed more help.
He was getting more bid jobs.
And it's kind of funny because this was a big component into my depression.
And I always think about that was out of nowhere.
My dad kind of sat me down and laid out every single bill he had to pay monthly.
And I was working at stop and shop at the time, which is like a grocery store and
He laid out every single bill that he had to pay every month, and he said, you need to figure out how to make money because this is what life is like.
There was no opportunity growth or anything like that.
Now, my older brother worked for him, but all I saw was that I made $7 an hour at the time, and I felt like he looked miserable most of the time.
I felt like if this is what life is like, then I don't think life is worth it.
And, uh, yeah, that was a big thing for me.
I felt like my parents were miserable all the time.
And then he showed me all those bills and I was like, I don't even feel happy without having to work.
Right.
Okay.
And how long did you deal the drugs for?
Oh, gosh, forever for a very long time.
Again, we're back with the giggling.
Yeah, I'm sorry.
Till 22.
The age of 22?
Yeah.
Six years?
Yep.
Okay.
Got it.
And how did that wind down?
I eventually got so wealthy with my brother that the risk just wasn't worth it.
And how did you get wealthy with your brother?
We both did electrical work and we used the low interest rates to buy multifamily and then more rental properties and I also did real estate work as well.
And how did you, did your brother get into that or did you get into that?
How did that come about?
Uh, my dad owned an electrical company and I read the book Rich Dad, Poor Dad.
Right.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
Okay.
And since then?
Uh, since then, I mean, I was just doing, planning on doing that indefinitely.
And I was kind of the property manager for my brother because I started doing real estate full-time.
I had my real estate license, but also I did a lot of the house flipping repair management stuff.
And I handled all the leases and all the tenant issues.
And for a while, I was selling drugs while doing that as well.
So me and my brother really had this kind of
crazy operation going and when well i guess now that i'm saying this yeah i think i i sold drugs longer than that but it didn't really register in my mind because it was like something that it wasn't oh my gosh i'm laughing again
It was it didn't register my mind because it was all with people that lived with us and rented from us.
So I didn't like view it as that.
Because it was like I always pictured drugged and it's like a business and you have all these clients that you talk to and everything like that not like your people that you live with and every day just like hey like.
You didn't flush the toilet when you left the bathroom like oh, hey, can I grab that from you like But yeah, so that was a part of it And I guess the music kind of stopped when Cove it happened and everyone was home all the time and I had this
Partner that my brother didn't like and he really I don't know how else to describe it, but he totally viewed it as This person was stealing me from him And I feel like he did everything he could to cause problems for the relationship And I will say that simultaneously it was like a mutual hatred of each other
She didn't like him because he was messy and she felt like he was abusive towards me.
He didn't like her because he just viewed her as someone that would take time away from me and him and eventually just come between us entirely.
So I felt like the two people closest to me were kind of just tearing me apart at the seams.
Got really bad when I think a big component of it was he was my older brother and he always viewed himself as like he had to be better than me because he was my older brother.
But a lot of people would give him social flight because he was still single and everyone thought my partner was like amazing.
And.
People would joke and say that I was the younger older brother.
And he tried dating this other girl who had a opioid addiction.
Of course, that didn't work out.
And when they broke up, we were hanging out at my family's house that day.
And my family had a pool and I splashed him a little bit like teasing him.
And he got so enraged.
He tried to hold me underwater and I didn't let him.
And I held him underwater when we were kind of like wrestling and he came out and he got all red face screaming that he would
Fight me and fuck me up and kill me and all this stuff like And at this point we owned four properties together and we're in our mid-20s So that was like a shock to me because I I never thought that we would ever get to this point And he was kind of implying I was just this drug addict who just did whatever I want and
I mean, I don't think it's a coincidence.
The day his relationship didn't work out, he attacked me and then we went home that day and I tried to talk to him.
He's like, I want to divide everything up right now and separate from you.
And I calmed him down and we talked about it and we say we're going forward.
But at that point, I think the cracks were too deep.
And then, of course, my partner, we all live together.
She did not feel comfortable around him in the slightest being
In the same house with him being business partners with him And I tried to make it work.
Um But it just It just felt like it was getting worse and more untrustworthy and we had joint bank accounts And everything kind of came to a head with he had this other person who was his electrical apprentice And it started getting really sketchy where
They took a day to just sit there and learn how to pick locks and then they were taking a class on how to hack people's computers and I felt really uncomfortable with everything that they were doing and then I felt like he was going to betray me.
He told someone else in the house that we lived with that he was close with
That he was going to take some of our money separately and put it into Bitcoin.
And he was going to siphon money, uh, rent money into that, try and do it without my knowledge.
And, uh, obviously that led to a blow up and confrontation because I confronted him pretty quickly.
And that time, um, he kind of just accused me of being like hyper paranoid on drugs and
There is truth to that.
I was hyper paranoid and on drugs.
But he was very unstable.
He tried to assault me.
And later on, when all was said and done, when we did divide everything up, he did have to pay me for moving money out of the accounts.
It was like $8,000.
He tried to have me arrested.
He did all sorts of crazy stuff.
And it was really ugly.
How did he try to have you arrested?
Well, because he just viewed me as a drug addict who just would have drugs on me.
When I moved into the other property and separated, I had to renovate the space that I was moving into.
And I liked stimulants a lot because I was doing a lot of construction work and I felt like they helped me do construction work, which they kind of did, but he, when I was doing that, he called the police on me and said that I had guns hidden in the, uh, the basement and that I abused my partner and, uh, that I, if they went over there, I'd be high out of my mind.
And at the time I felt like I did need to clean up my act.
So I was actually sober and I was napping when six police officers showed up at the property.
And this is when we were still negotiating everything.
And they came out and frisked me and I had a camera set up and I sent my parents a photo and said, Hey, I just, your son just tried to have me arrested.
Well, it's a little bit more than that, isn't it?
I mean, isn't it like, I mean, you could have been killed.
Right.
That's swatting, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Just, just wanted to make sure if we were on the same wavelength or not.
Oh, no, absolutely.
And I feel like when you talk about the laughter thing, yeah, I, I don't, the thing that really fucked me up about all of it stuff was that no one, like in my life,
I don't think I like I know for a fact that no one loves my brother more than me.
Going, you know, when he was sick, I would make him soup and bring him soup and be like, hey, you should watch the show.
You know, if I felt like he was busy.
Doing a lot of work with electrical, I would go if I was home, I would go do his laundry.
You know, I was.
And even more crazy is that we were very successful.
I made lots of money for both of us through business acquisitions and rental and real estate related work that we did.
So he might've thought that I was kind of, you know, doing too many drugs and maybe unstable, but the proof was in the pudding that we were successful in business together.
Right.
Wow.
Wow, that's quite something.
Quite a tale.
And how long ago was the break?
It was in the end of 2021.
Okay, so that's a while ago.
And has there been any contact with or from your brother since?
Outside of ironing out business things, no.
Okay.
And has anyone in your family attempted to try and heal anything or fix anything or anything like that?
Like between you guys?
I want to say yes, but it's such a joke.
I mean, they can't even, they can hardly say sorry for kicking me out at 16.
Uh, sorry.
So, but that's separate from the conflict with your brother, right?
Right.
I just mean, they're, they're so awful at conflict resolution and I just feel like it's the worst.
Okay, so they haven't done anything in particular with regards to trying to get you guys sorted out?
Well, they actually came down on me pretty hard because they're Christian, so my older brother didn't do as many drugs as me, and I want to make that point because there was one time where he took too much LSD,
And he was trying to kill himself.
He was screaming he was God and me and some other people had to physically restrain him and handcuff him.
And I ended up dropping him off at my parents' house because I was genuinely worried about him.
But I love him and he got better and we just let it go.
But when I didn't trust him because he was sketchy and told people he was going to betray me and he had tried to assault me, my parents just said, well,
Sorry, if you could please stay off the names, I'd really appreciate it.
It just gives me a lot of editing to do afterwards.
Oh, I'm sorry.
They basically just said, well, you're doing drugs and drugs are bad, so that's it.
It didn't matter what was happening.
They really didn't believe me.
They believed that I was just a crazy drug addict.
They thought what I was saying was far-fetched.
To them it didn't seem absurd that in our mid-twenties he tried to choke me out and said he was going to kill me.
And they knew all about that and they accepted that that was a real thing that happened?
Yeah, that was at their house.
They were there.
Okay.
Oh no, and did they witness it or?
Yes.
Got it.
Wow, okay.
All right.
And so it's been, it's been a couple of years and I guess your brother has not, um, not solved it, not sorted it out or anything like that.
Right.
And, uh, how are your relationship, how's your relationship with your other sibling?
Uh, so my little brother, he, he always kind of viewed me as a stick in the mud.
Because I know as hypocritical as it sounds, yes, I did a lot of stimulants or Adderall, but I was very much, Hey, you want to be a professional basketball player?
You shouldn't be smoking weed.
You know, I was really always trying to encourage him to make good choices, but I think all that did was give him a chip on his shoulder.
Like you think you're so much better than me.
And so
When my other brother is saying, Oh, you know, the loser drug addicts.
Okay.
One more time.
One more time, please.
I'm begging you stop using your name.
I'm sorry.
Yeah, it's not.
I mean, it's really annoying just because I'm sorry.
I want to stay present to the conversation.
Uh, but, uh, I have to then go through and, and scrub names.
Right.
So.
Right.
I'm happy to give you the time for free, but don't add to my labor.
So just please stay off the names.
Anyway, go ahead.
Gotcha.
Yeah.
I'm sorry.
I'm sorry.
Um, yeah.
So they'd say, Oh, he's a loser drug addict.
What you can come do work with me, be in business with me.
And, uh, so my little brother basically, I, on some level, I genuinely think he was happy about what was happening.
Cause he could then try and act like I was just some crazy drug addict to gaslight me and all this stuff, uh, which hurt a lot.
But it was a drop in the bucket with everything that was going on in my life.
Okay.
So not, not, it's not great what's going on with you.
Yeah.
And, um, what was crazy to me was as time went on and more and more details came out, because at first I didn't have any evidence and then he tried to do the police thing.
And then when I,
uh went through all the accounting he had to pay me that eight thousand um and i did have evidence and then my parents and my little brother and everyone kind of just like oh well you know it's that was just a mistake he didn't realize that he owed you that money it was like excuses would just be made like everything would just be kind of swept under the rug no real apologies like hey we're sorry we called you a paranoid drug addict like
It was just always like they really went hard against me.
And then as more evidence came out and more truth came out, it was just kind of like, all right, well, let's let's drop it.
You know, you acted kind of crazy.
You both had your issues.
Let's just move on.
Okay, got it.
Got it.
Um, and how have your parents processed, you know, the fact that you would have been kicked out for two years, which could have been very dangerous, right?
I mean, you end up on the streets and like, you could have been, I don't know, raped, trafficked, killed.
I'm not trying to freak you out and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that's pretty risky.
No, I've thought about that.
I've thought about that.
And I just, I don't even know.
It genuinely flabbergasts me how my mom just kind of shrugs it out.
What does she say?
It's been so long since I've talked about it with her, but I remember when I first moved back in, she was like, aren't you glad to like be back home?
And I just remember thinking, well, I have no other choice.
Yeah.
But was there a thing which they said, not that it would make it much better,
But was there a thing where they said, well listen, if you do X, Y, or Z, you can come home?
Or was it just like, you're gone, forget it?
Or was it like you have to rejoin the church or something else?
Like, was there a standard by which- It was a church thing.
I could not live there and not be a part of the church.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay.
My, my dad said later on, cause I did say to him, it was just like, you kicked me out for, uh, smoking weed.
And now my little brother can just do whatever he wants.
Oh, so that's, that's the thing, right?
Yeah.
And then he, he said like, well, I, if it was up to me, I wouldn't have kicked you out.
Oh, wow.
Totally throws your mom under the bus.
Right.
Yep.
Interesting.
Interesting.
Okay.
And have you talked to, what did your mom say about it?
I really don't even remember.
I genuinely, I think she said something along the lines of, well, I'm not perfect.
You know, you were, you were rebellious.
It's crazy.
I just saw her post on Facebook, how,
At that same time period where I was kicked out, she was saying, I didn't, uh, the post was, I didn't tell my youngest son that school was canceled tomorrow.
So he wouldn't not finish his homework.
Hashtag such a great mother.
And it's so funny.
Well, it's not funny.
It's like a messed up thing where it's, I was kicked out during that time.
Right.
Wow.
Okay.
All right.
So, uh, the strangest thing about all of this, the strangest thing about all of this is my mom is a now a very hyper successful real estate agent.
And she was kind of really getting into her career at that point in time too.
And she's very generous to my life.
Now, she paid a ton for my wedding and even honeymoon family vacation thing recently.
She does a lot of really nice things for me.
But there was an incident where me and her worked together doing real estate.
And we had this agreement about, you know, if we're sharing a listing, anyone who contacts us about that listing, we would
Split the clients and she tried to hide it from me and she ended up having to pay me like $10,000 and it was a big fight.
Uh, and my dad got involved and had to make her basically pay me.
Wow.
And, uh, I just don't understand it.
Like, how can you do that?
But also.
Sorry.
So help me understand the 10 grand.
I'm sorry.
Maybe I missed that, but if you could help me understand that a bit more.
Um,
Basically, we had a listing that we shared.
And it was a dumb luck scenario where the person remembered me and said, Oh, can you bring your son with you as well?
I know you guys work together doing real estate.
And so we showed up to do this.
Hey, we can help sell your house for XYZ.
And really, they didn't actually want me to be their agent.
They wanted me to come over and help fix their TV.
But because of that, I was involved in this big listing.
Um, and so I think my mom viewed it as like, I was already lucky to be there.
And then someone else called to buy another very expensive home because of that listing.
And she tried to not share that with me and hide it from me.
And I found out about it.
Sorry, she, they called you for the second listing?
They called her, but anyone who contacts us because of that listing, we were supposed to split because it's both of our listing.
Oh, but she was only, you were only there because to fix something.
So did she not, I'm just trying to understand, did she not view you as part of that first listing?
Because you were only there to.
I was part of that first listing because they told me that I should show up.
So we made the whole listing presentation together and we were a real estate team, though we also did separate transactions.
So because they requested that I come and they, you know, they were screening us to see if they would work with us.
Really they were just screening my mom.
They wanted me to fix their TV, but they didn't say that so I showed up and it was, hey, can you help fix the TV?
Okay, so my mom viewed it as like dumb luck that I was even involved in that.
Yeah, that wasn't 10 grand worth of work to come and fix the TV, right?
No, no, that was that listing was separate the call after that.
Um, right.
Yeah.
But the domino is if a follows from B, but B wasn't earned, then a isn't earned either.
Right.
Correct.
But it's not like real estate is a business that doesn't involve chance.
You have no idea what connections you're going to make with people or how those connections are going to be formed.
No, no, listen, I fully understand that.
And I'm, I'm not sort of here to relitigate this disagreement with your mom.
But it's not as clear as she told, she stole 10 grand from you.
Right.
I mean, ultimately our agreement stated that we were to share any business from any shared listing.
Right.
But that's on the assumption that the shared listing is based upon the clients wanting you there for your expertise in real estate, not to fix a TV.
Right.
But I sat there and did the, made the whole presentation with her and did the work with her.
No, I, I get that.
And so, but, and so there's a certain gray area, which I can understand, but of course the whole point of a family is you're not supposed to care about the gray areas, right?
Right.
And ultimately my, my annoyance with it was she was already a very successful agent.
I was trying to start and build my career and I have a limited outlet for opportunities.
I don't have a ton of people peers my age that can all afford to buy homes.
Well, and she kicked you out of the house for two years.
Maybe she got some slack on 10 grand, right?
So that's sorry.
I don't mean to fuel your indignation if it's there, but that would be my thought.
Right.
And I, and honestly, I, I sort of understand where she's coming from, but at the same time, there was this whole argument.
Oh we didn't do anything for and she would genuinely try and make this assertion or it's like how could i do anything for a deal that you had for me that i could never know existed.
Sorry i don't get the deal of the second one right yes okay so it's like why do you deserve any of this money it's like because it's but our agreement says.
No, listen, I mean, I was in business with a family member for many years, and it's a mess, because you have all of these considerations based on family, but then if somebody decides to pull the letter of the law stuff, it's like, okay, but, you know, we've been doing all this stuff because we're family.
Like, if you weren't family, she wouldn't even have hired you, right?
Right.
So, you know, there's all of this stuff that's different because of family, and then someone goes, letter of the law, like, there's no family, and it's, I don't know, it's just, that's one of the complications of working with... Oh, and to be honest, I don't disagree with you.
My mom is this strange, bipolar-seeming anomaly to me, where I, it's like she's two different people.
How do you kick me out for two years, but then want me to be in real estate business with you?
How do you try and cut me out of a deal in real estate, but then drop so much money on me having a wedding?
You know, it's just, I don't understand her.
Well, you can't understand people who are unstable.
And that's kind of what I've thought.
She needs that Jesus crutch so heavily.
It's important to understand this, right?
Instability.
The very definition of it is unpredictable.
Because if it's predictable, it's stable, right?
Stable and predictable are two.
So if your mother is unstable, then she's going to be unpredictable.
And here's the problem.
You don't know her inner motives.
And if she's unstable, she's not going to tell you the truth about her inner motives.
So you'll just be guessing and saying, well, hang on a second.
This doesn't fit with this, but that's how we know.
Like how, how do we know people are crazy?
I'm not saying she's crazy, but you know, how do we, because they say things that clearly aren't true and contradict each other.
Right?
So if your mother's behavior is contradictory, that's how you know, she's unstable.
So saying, well, gee, I can't predict her behavior, it's like, well, yeah, because she's unstable, right?
Because she doesn't have a central philosophy or a core set of moral beliefs that she follows.
She follows the whim of the moment, right?
When it comes to... I mean, there still can be some kind of pattern, so I don't know the answer as to why she was... Hang on, let me finish my thoughts.
I've got to get a word in edgewise here, right?
I mean, I haven't spoken much, right?
So I'm not exactly dominated the conversation here, but I'd like to get a word or two in edgewise.
So, with regards to your mother,
I would imagine that she wants the money and that's a private matter, the business stuff.
However, she likes saying that she gave you a bunch of money for your wedding because it makes her look good and it improves her social standing.
So usually there's some kind of patterns, but maybe they're not obvious.
Maybe that's not it, but it could be something like that.
Yeah.
I mean, that's pretty much what I think.
I think it's she, her entire existence is based on this.
Social church ego that she has where her son's getting married and starting a family.
So that's amazing.
And that makes her look awesome.
And now she gets to be a grandmother and have a daughter-in-law and.
You know, all the church people say, Hey, marriage is great.
You know, they're not living in sin.
They're doing it right.
Um, so I think, I think that's part of pattern that way now.
What happened in terms of your dating life in your, I guess, mid-teens or whatever onwards?
So, we've actually spoken before.
I called you a long time ago asking how to find a good wife.
You told me to stop chasing crazy hot women.
Hey, sounds like this advice paid off!
Yeah, I mean, it was a process.
I didn't
Uh, fully comprehender or heed everything that you said, but what you taught me helps me process a lot with my wife and her family.
And, uh, I'm genuinely impressed by how far she's come cutting out her toxic family and abusive people.
I've never met anyone who's done it that well.
And, um, what's the story with her family?
Um, her mom was, uh, raped by her dad, her mom's dad.
Uh, and she didn't tell her husband that and left the kids with the grandparents.
And later on, well into their marriage, kind of was going to therapy and then just dropped all that on her dad.
And her dad cheated on her mom, and they got divorced, and she was sexually abused by her brother, and her mom never really did anything about it or confronted it.
Sorry, your wife was sexually abused by her mother, her mother was sexually abused by her... No, no, no.
My wife was sexually abused by her brother, her mom was sexually abused by her grandfather, or her mom's father.
Okay, sorry.
Sorry, that's what I had in my head.
I guess I put it out wrong.
Okay, and what else?
The mom was very hyper-liberal, pro-government.
Kind of cuckoo bananas.
And I actually, after meeting her for the first time, had a dream nightmare so vivid of her killing me, shooting me.
I've never had a dream like that in my life.
Me and my wife were sleeping together and I was screaming, no, don't shoot.
And her mom was standing at the top of the stairs with a gun grinning down, smiling at me.
Never had a dream like that in my life.
That's a pretty vivid manifestation of the against me argument, but anyway, go on.
Yeah, and I always felt like her mom didn't like me.
When her mom found out she was dating me, first thing she did was look up, does he actually own these properties?
And that just felt like really weird to me because she could just talk to me.
I was sitting right in front of her explaining what I do.
You know?
Right, right.
And then her mom, when she was showing signs of depression and we were having issues in our relationship, her mom was saying that she shouldn't talk to me, that she should go see a professional therapist.
Which is very obvious why, when everything came out.
Sorry, it may be more obvious to you than it is to me.
Because her brother sexually abused her because her mom never cut off.
Oh, so sorry.
So then the therapist, you would talk to that about with a therapist and the, but, but if, but you wouldn't find out about it directly.
Right.
Or it would be very sanctioned through a professional who would, you know, not, it would be the right person to not, to not have anyone take responsibility.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It'd be about forgiveness and moving on and all that kind of garbage.
Right.
Okay.
Right.
Okay.
Um, and the way everything ended, there was a confrontation and the mom tried to get her to leave me and say, Oh, well, if you feel that strongly about it, we should go to the police.
And I said, it's funny.
You want to do that now?
Why didn't you do that all those years ago?
And.
Sorry, I didn't quite get go.
Who goes to the police?
The mom, because of the brother, she was saying, oh, well, you know, we should go to the police then if you feel that strongly about it, like it's such a big deal.
Uh, so, sorry, she was saying when her daughter talked to you about sexual abuse from the brother, her brother?
Yes.
Your mother-in-law said we should go to the police.
Right, when I was confronting her about weirdness in her family.
Okay, okay, got it.
And then you said, well, why, why wouldn't you have gone all those years ago?
Right?
Right.
She talked to her about it before.
Oh, did she talk to her about it when she was a kid, a little?
Uh, yes.
Oh gosh.
And what age was this?
What ages?
Um, it was from when she was five to eight and, uh, she talked to her about it when she was eight.
When she was how old?
Eight years old.
Eight years old.
Gosh.
And what ended it or what stopped it?
Um, I think she got older and, uh, her mom had kind of talked to her about like sexual warnings.
And that's how the whole conversation started because then she told her like, Oh, well, this incident happened.
That's more than an incident went on for three or four years.
Right.
Right.
Exactly.
And then the mom was just like, Oh, well, are you safe?
And that's basically safe.
What does that mean?
Do you feel safe?
You know, what do you feel safe?
Yeah.
I mean, she's been molested by her brother for a couple of years.
I don't, I mean, I don't follow what, I mean, obviously it's just her mom, her mom left her with the grandfather who raped her.
So.
I mean how?
No, but I don't even in even in crazy talk.
I don't quite follow that one Well For what I'm saying is I wonder how much my mom how much her mom even thinks like sexual abuse is that big a deal oh Yeah, like he's having his way as long as he's not like if you're play fighting.
It's like do you feel safe?
Right, because she never cut out her father for the longest time and even left her kids with him.
Oh, gosh.
And so it ended at about the same time as your wife was talking to her mother at the age of eight.
Is that right?
The sexual abuse.
And was that because your wife did or change something or the mother talked to the brother or I'm still trying to sort of figure out how it tapered off or ended.
It ended when I think
The brother, uh, cause the brother was five years older.
So I think he got a different girlfriend and, uh, he had other friends and was doing like older, older kids stuff.
And the mom had talked about sexual abuse and warning that it wasn't good.
And she talked to the brother or just to your wife?
To my wife.
And that's when it, when she mentioned that it had occurred.
Okay.
So it was, I'm just trying, was there anything causal in the conversation between your mother-in-law and your wife at the age of eight that stopped the brother or was it just kind of coincidental that both happened to be around when she was eight?
Um, I think it was coincidental.
Uh, my wife said she came to this realization.
on her bus at that point, and she was like, thinking to herself, like, never again.
Okay, got it, got it.
So, how long were you with your wife before you got married?
Three and a half years.
Um, how long ago did you and I talk?
I think it was 2019.
Oh, okay.
I can check, I can check the episode.
Um, yeah.
And the number would be interesting for sure.
I think it's 4,444.
Okay.
Got it.
So, um, and, and your, your,
I guess then girlfriend or how long have you been married?
Oh, we got married very recently.
It's been like two, like not even two months.
Okay.
Congratulations, of course.
Um, and what's, what has been the detachment from her family process?
Um, well, she took a video
Where she basically told all of her family members in individual ways that they're all pieces of shit and they all could have done better and none of them want to ever take responsibility so they can all fuck themselves.
I'm sorry about the laughter.
And the mom obviously hated that.
And the brother has made zero attempt to contact her in any way since any of this stuff came out.
And did she mention anything about the sexual abuse or when she?
Yeah.
Oh, gosh.
Wow.
M.O.A.B., right?
M.O.A.B.
All right.
Yeah.
Sorry, go ahead.
And the one thing that's interesting in all of it is her father and her reconnected because I encouraged her to be
More forgiving and try to mend wounds if possible because my mom was able to do that with her father who abandoned her and he was very friendly to the family afterwards.
He took us on all these vacations.
He was a good guy afterwards down the line.
Sorry, you mean your mother's father?
Yes.
Okay.
He had his Christian repentance.
And, uh, yeah, so I always kind of believe that people could be redeemed.
And so her and her father and I got, uh, dinner and they started to kind of reconnect and when everything came out and was going down and she was upset, her dad kind of, even when she was in the video mentioned her dad and being upset at her, the dad still,
Was very apologetic and just saying he's sorry and that he knows that stuff happened and he wishes he had done better.
And.
That he loves her.
And he's a very awkward guy.
Probably feels a lot of guilt.
But he still contacts us from.
Time to time, he gave us a wedding present and came over before we went to our wedding, because we did it out of state.
He wasn't able to make it, but he came over and gave us a wedding present and hung out with us for a while.
Sorry, this is her biological father, and he abandoned the family at what age?
I think when she was seven.
Oh, so he was around while she was being sexually abused by her brother.
I mean, he probably wasn't around much because he was cheating.
He was in the family.
Well, yeah.
He was in the household.
His job was to protect his daughter, which he utterly failed to do.
In fact, he raised a boy who was a child rapist.
Yeah.
Am I wrong?
No.
But he's apologized, so good?
I mean, he knows all of this, right?
Because I guess your wife sent the video, right?
Yeah.
I think he's dipping his toes in to connection or forgiveness or any kind of conversation.
I'm sorry, I'm not sure where we're at in the conversation now.
I'm just trying to be clear, right?
So, he's a good guy, right?
You just said he's a good guy.
I don't think I said that.
I think you said he gave you wedding presents and you had dinner with him.
I don't think I ever said he was a good guy, though.
Okay, my apologies if I misheard, for sure.
No, no, no.
But he's redeemed, right?
He's had his redemption arc?
No, no, no.
I said people can be redeemed.
I never said that.
I think that he's trying.
To reconnect.
Well, no, he's reconnecting, isn't he?
I mean, you're going for dinner, he gave you a wedding present.
Is that right?
I mean, he hasn't met my parents.
He's very reclusive.
He's very awkward.
Like I said, I think he feels a tremendous amount of guilt.
How do you know?
Uh, by his awkward mannerisms, but people are awkward who aren't guilty.
I know you're right.
That's a, that's an excellent point.
I, I he's apologized many times and, um, for not being there for the fact that stuff had happened.
He was there.
I'm sorry if I'm, I'm sorry, I'm a little in a tumble dry here and I could be completely wrong, but he was there for the first seven years of her life.
He, he apologized that the abuse occurred and his exact.
Yes.
And he, he does know about the sexual abuse.
Yes.
And he, he had said that he obvious he was very upset that it had gone on.
And he said, he said, he definitely didn't get that for me.
And that wasn't right at all.
And he said that he was glad that it was being confronted.
So, he doesn't have, I mean, to your knowledge, obviously, he doesn't have any history of sexual abuse himself, right?
To my knowledge, no.
But he married a woman who'd been raped by her own father, right?
Yeah.
Which, of course, would put his own children in a risk category, right?
Yeah, and that's the thing why, um,
The mom is just completely axed out of the picture.
She, I mean, the fact that she hid that from him and then just dropped it on him in the middle of their marriage after leaving their children with the grandfather.
Sorry, at what point?
So he was with your wife for the first seven years of her life, but he didn't know anything about the fact that his own wife had been sexually abused.
And he only found that out much later?
How old was your wife when her father found out that his wife had been sexually abused?
I'm not sure, but I know that she was a child at that point.
It could be anywhere.
Teens?
No, it could be from like, I don't know, four to seven.
It'd have to be in that range.
Sorry, I feel like I just took another turn at the spin cycle.
I'm sorry if I'm missing something.
So, your wife's father knew when he was in charge of the household, or at least in the household and in charge of protecting his children, your wife's father knew years before he left, he found out that his wife had been sexually abused as a child, right?
Yes.
Right.
So, if you find this out, I mean, this isn't brain surgery, what do you do as a father?
I mean, that's a really loaded question when you're... Not really.
...two children.
Not a loaded question at all!
What do you do if you find out that there's a hidden history of sexual abuse in your family?
What's the first thing you do?
You make sure your children are safe.
Absolutely!
Of course you do!
You sit down with your kids and you say, you know, there's this unfortunate aspect of life and society.
I really wish I didn't have to tell you at this age, but I just found out about it myself.
So.
Any, you know, street proof, nobody touches you, has anybody touched you, you go through all of that stuff, right?
Yeah.
That's the first thing you do!
I mean, if your wife is carrying some dangerous virus that she's not been treated for, and she's been around the kids, and then a week later she says, oh yeah, by the way, I've had this dangerous virus and I've never been treated for it, what's the first thing you do?
People are so stupid, though, and they believe these therapies.
They're not stupid!
Oh, people aren't stupid?
If people are stupid, then you could cut government spending no problem, because nobody could figure out the cause and effect!
I mean, but you don't think that a licensed therapist sitting there saying that they're just a victim and they're totally innocent people, and that you have to understand that they, like, making this
This projection that they're not a bad person at all.
Wait, who are we talking about?
Therapy?
Therapist?
Well, he found out because she sat him down with her therapist and they unloaded it all on him.
So, yeah, okay.
So your wife's mother sat down with her therapist and got her husband, who was then still in her life when the kids were young, and the therapist said your wife was sexually abused.
Your wife was raped by her own father, right?
Yes.
Okay.
Right.
I don't know how that means that you don't protect your children.
No, I don't.
I'm not saying it does.
I'm saying I think that there was an element of manipulation and the way things were framed to downplay the severity of threat or issue.
Uh, well, I mean, I mean, you're speculating like, you weren't in that, you weren't in on that conversation.
How the hell do you, I don't, I don't know.
You don't know.
I mean, no, no, no, no, no.
There is something that makes me say that because the mom would cycle therapists until she found one that would frame things in a way that she liked.
Okay.
You still weren't in on that conversation, right?
Yeah.
I mean, are you saying that people in general don't know that there's a cycle of abuse?
That that's just completely unheard of for people?
That if your parents hit you, that you're more likely to hit your children?
That if your parents verbally abuse you, you're more likely, without intervention, to verbally abuse your children?
Um, I don't know.
I think people are really dumb.
I genuine people, people sit there and say, I'm glad my parents hit me.
It may be a better person.
I get that.
So they've just confirmed that because their parents hit them.
They're more likely to hit their children.
I'm not saying the morals of it.
So the people who say, I'm glad my parents hit me.
So I'm going to hit my kids at complete.
So they're saying, yeah, I hit my kids because my parents hit me because it's good.
Right, so you've just confirmed, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to score points here, but you've just confirmed exactly what I said.
Right, what I'm saying is, I just think that this guy drank a lot, he cheated, I don't know how checked into his life he was.
That's all I'm saying.
Don't know how checked into his life he was?
Sorry, I don't know what that means.
From what I understand.
Are you saying he was dissociated?
Yes.
From what I understand, he, he partied a lot and drank a lot.
And one of the things him and his wife argued about was that he was always trying to party and go hang out with people.
Right.
So are you saying that, I don't understand, is that an excuse?
No, not, not at all.
Well, then why are we talking about it?
If it's not an excuse, why is it being brought up?
Well, what I'm saying is I think he's just genuinely dumb enough to believe that someone could be abused like that and it not be a problem for the children.
That's what I'm saying.
How long did he cheat on your mother-in-law for?
I'm not sure, but I know he had a couple of mistresses.
And it took a while to find out?
Yeah.
Then he's not dumb!
If you can hide mistresses from your wife, you're not dumb!
Right?
Can you imagine trying to hide mistresses from your wife?
Take a lot of planning.
A lot of lying.
You gotta hold your stories together.
You gotta make up excuses.
You gotta... Right?
Be credible.
Yeah, that's true.
So he ain't dumb.
My question is, why are you giving him excuses?
He was the patriarch in a household where his daughter was being raped by his son.
I don't give a shit about anything other than that, and I'm not sure why you do either.
And did I get this right that you kind of encourage your wife to get back in touch with him?
Uh, yeah.
I mean, that was before I knew a lot of this.
Oh, okay.
So we were, we're back in fog land here.
Now you're just making excuses for yourself.
No, no, no.
Okay.
We can play this game.
We, uh, I think it's a waste of time, but we can play this game if you want.
Okay.
So no, no, that's fine.
So when, no, hang on.
No, I want to know if these are excuses or not.
I don't want to be unfair.
So when did you find out that your sister, sorry, when did you find out that your wife had been raped as a child by her brother?
A little over a year into our relationship.
Okay, so, you know, two and a half years ago, almost three, is that right?
Yep.
Okay.
And when did you know?
The age your wife was when her father left?
Pretty early on to when we were dating.
So what the fuck are you talking about then?
You knew the two essential pieces of information.
That your wife was raped by her brother and her father was around and in charge, right?
When we had that dinner, that was before I knew about the abuse.
Uh, the dinner with her father.
Yes.
Oh, okay.
So it was just a couple of months into the relationship that you were encouraging her.
Yes.
To get in touch with her father.
Yes.
Okay.
So when you said, I want to get in touch, I think you should get in touch with your father.
Your wife didn't say, well, a, Oh, she didn't say because she didn't find out until a year into the relationship.
Is that right?
That, that she'd been sexually abused?
Yes.
So when you said you should get back in touch with your father, she didn't say, well, he was my father at home while I was being raped by my brother, who he raised?
No.
Okay.
Why not?
Seems important, doesn't it?
Oh, a hundred percent.
This was a big,
Issue that we fought about a lot.
And.
Listen, sorry, just to interrupt, I appreciate the pushback.
You were right.
I thought that you had more recently told her to be in touch with her father.
So you're completely right.
I, um, I was absolutely wrong and I appreciate the pushback.
So thank you.
Um, when, uh,
I think that the logic was that you didn't want to lose her family members and that she felt like if it came out, her reputation could be at stake and her family and her family connections would be severed.
Oh, you mean, sorry, if she told you about it?
Yeah, and that I would hardline it.
And she was right.
Okay.
And has she herself seen a therapist for the experiences she was unfortunately put through?
When she was younger.
What age was that?
That I'm not sure.
I think one, I know that one was in high school.
She went to see a therapist for that?
I don't know if it was for that, but I know she went to a therapist in high school.
Do you know if she's talked to a therapist about being sexually abused for three or four years from five to eight?
No, I don't know that.
Why don't you know that?
Um, I just know that she went to therapy.
So she... But she didn't tell you for a year, so she might not have told the therapist either, right?
Uh, you're 100% correct, yeah.
So, with regards to the sexual abuse, she might be untreated, as far as you know, right?
Uh, potentially.
Seems important.
Right, so, the reason why I would hold the dad at fault, I mean, there's any number of reasons,
But it means that her father has no clue that there's a child pedophile in his house sexually assaulting his daughter, who he's known for five years, like by the time the sexual abuse started, right?
Which means he doesn't have a single clue, apparently, that there's a change in behavior when a child starts to get sexually abused.
Now, I don't believe that's true.
I could be totally wrong about this.
I straight up don't believe that it's true.
I don't believe that there's anyone who doesn't notice a change in behavior in a child who's being sexually assaulted.
I mean, to take an example, right?
Imagine you're close to your wife, right?
I mean, there's still a few secrets, but you're close to your wife.
Now, let's say that your wife
Was out during the day and she got sexually assaulted, right?
Would you notice anything different about her when she came home?
Or would she be exactly the same?
Definitely, there would be differences.
Of course there would be, even if she wanted to hide it for whatever reason.
I took the perspective as kids, it's like,
Treated as a game.
I'm sorry, what is?
The sexual abuse, it would be treated as like a game because you wouldn't understand the severity of it.
So, are you saying that your wife treated it as a game?
That's, I think, yeah, that's how it was introduced.
Like, it wasn't, like, a big deal.
It was, like, playful.
Well, if it's playful, then she would have talked about it.
Hey, I just played some tag with the kids up the street!
Well, I think they know they're... I think she knew she wasn't supposed to be doing it.
The older brother definitely knew that they weren't supposed to be doing it.
And what is the it?
What did they do that you know of?
Yeah.
I'm sorry?
Yeah, I do know.
Okay.
If you don't want to say, that's fine.
I mean, she's not here, so I'm fine if you don't want to say.
But I'm sure that it was kept hidden, it was kept secret, and she may have been told, or threatened even, to not talk about it, right?
Right.
And, of course, it's every parent's job to teach children about this risk, right?
Right.
Well, you don't let your kids play with fire.
You don't let your kids play with steak knives, right?
You don't let your kids, when they're five, ride on motorcycles, and you tell them that nobody's allowed to touch their privates, right?
Right.
And if anybody does touch their privates, you immediately come and tell.
Yeah.
Right?
I mean, your mother-in-law would absolutely have known about that risk because she experienced it herself.
Yes.
And you do this with your kids, right?
Because you can't watch them 24-7.
Yeah.
So you street-proof your kids, right?
And now I guess, to your mother-in-law's point, she would say, well, I did that, but it was three or four years too late.
Yeah.
Right.
Which meant that there was such a culture of secrecy in the household that they didn't notice that their kids was keeping secrets.
Because their kids were, what, keeping so many secrets or whatever?
And they didn't notice any change in behavior.
In either of the children.
Yeah.
They also, I assume, did not monitor internet activity from the children.
Because you said that her brother was five years older, is that right?
No, I mean, I would say it was worse than that.
I, her, I know in high school she wrote erotica and she would show it to her mom and her mom would help her like spell check it.
Oh God.
It's like the layers of hell just keep collapsing in on themselves, just when you think you're at the bottom.
There's more, but wait, there's more.
Gosh almighty.
But her brother was five years older, is that right?
Yup.
So, um, where does a 10 year old boy know to molest a girl?
How does he know?
Right?
I mean, I assume he's- Well, he always theorized that their uncle had something to do with it.
Uh, sorry, remind me about the uncle again?
I guess they had a weird uncle who was the mother's brother and that's when our names again.
Oh, okay.
So the mother had a brother and, uh, so she was actually named after her mom's sister who died of a heroin overdose, who was also sexually abused.
And, uh, so the theory is that the, the uncle may have molested the brother who in turn molested.
That's what she told me.
She thought because the uncle would take him sailing.
And was the sexual molestation tendencies of the uncle was that known to her parents at the time?
The dad, so the dad definitely knew he was a weirdo.
He would wear a skirt sometimes.
Sorry, the dad means your dad?
Yes.
Okay.
So, okay.
So your wife's dad knew he was, that the uncle was a weirdo because he would wear dresses?
Yes.
Okay.
And do you have any idea at what age her dad knew that the uncle was weird?
No.
Okay.
But they're all like, well, you're creepy as all get up, but hey, you should take her kids sailing.
Yeah.
I have no idea.
I, when me and her father talk, um, cause I, I've actually met this uncle once too.
And you know, I, I thought he was.
Weird too.
And I said the, I said, what a fucking weirdo.
And the dad laughed and was like, I've always thought he was the biggest weirdo.
Okay.
So your wife's dad handed his son over to a guy he always knew was the biggest weirdo.
I think so.
Without any childproofing or don't touch genitals or whatever.
Right.
Right.
And I mean, this is speculation.
But yeah.
Sorry, but what part of it is speculation?
If the uncle was the cause, but I mean, he definitely was a weirdo.
Okay.
I see.
Yeah.
And that makes sense.
I mean, okay.
And so what's the status of your wife's father in her life at the moment?
He's still in occasional contact.
He gave you a wedding present, right?
Yeah.
He,
Probably visits or says hi every two and a half months.
And what restitution has he tried to make?
Very little other than just saying he knows he did a bad job.
And that he's sorry and then he frames things in this like, but you guys are crushing it.
I'm glad you guys are doing awesome.
And what was his life?
What was his role in your wife's life after the age of seven when he left?
Uh, very, very little, uh, involvement.
He,
Was supposed to take them sometimes, but from what I understand it got to the point where he just stopped taking them.
Okay, so not much.
And then it was very little until shortly after you guys started dating before you knew about the abuse and you encouraged her to be in touch with him, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay.
Sorry.
And I appreciate that.
And I also appreciate the pushback where I was wrong.
So thank you very much.
And sorry again for being impatient when you were totally in the right.
Okay.
So what's going on now?
You, you're obviously married and how's the child, right?
You've got a, you've got a baby if I remember rightly.
Yeah, he's doing.
Amazing.
He's like the bright star in my life.
He's like bigger than 98% of babies his age.
Um, he's got some teeth.
He's kind of taken steps.
He's 10 months.
And, uh, Wait, so wait, how big was your wife when you got pregnant?
He was not, he was not born a big baby.
Okay.
But she was still fairly far along, right?
Yeah.
So, I mean, cause you know, when, when you said earlier, your mother was keen to help pay for the wedding, cause it's like, they get married, they're doing it right.
No, no, no, no, no.
He was, no, no, I was making it right in the eyes of everyone.
Oh, making it right because you got her pregnant.
Okay.
And was it something that you're like, let's have a baby and then let's get married?
Or was he like a happy accident or how does that work?
You probably don't remember it, but in our call, I've always been terrified of marriage and never saw the point.
We viewed ourselves as a family and we were just going to be a family without actually ever being married because I always viewed it as a risk.
In the end, I felt like to some degree, I didn't like making people uncomfortable.
I didn't like lying and telling people she was my wife because I didn't want them to just view my son as like a bastard.
And so I decided to just make it official because from my perspective, we're going to be together forever anyway.
So as much as I hate the way the state is set up and the way the laws are.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it.
Okay.
Good.
Good.
Got it.
Appreciate that.
Appreciate that.
Okay.
So how can I best help you in the time that we have left?
And I appreciate all that background.
Um, right.
So my big thing is I still feel like despite where I'm at in my life, like, like I thought having a son would help me mature.
But all the same things that I used to like, like, not the same way, but like, I don't play video games as much, but that's probably because I have a son now.
It's more important than that.
So in that way, I feel like I've changed, but I'm not clean off drugs.
And I'm trying to talk to a psychologist because I feel like I should just have them
Decide like a healthy balance because I genuinely feel like I have some kind of chemical imbalance And but as of right now, I just kind of sometimes feel like Disconnected in life and still like am I just an addict?
Do I like and I said, I'm very cynical towards life.
I I still feel weird about things with my family um
And like I said, I don't know what I'm supposed to be selling my son on in the joys of life, because I feel like oftentimes if I'm sitting here and I still use drugs, it's just hypocritical.
Clearly, who am I to talk about how great life is or try and sell someone on life?
And I have the perspective that
You know, you owe your kid the world and they owe you nothing.
So I want to try to make sure he has a great life.
I would love to homeschool him.
And we read that book, Being There, that you recommended.
Right.
And why do you take drugs?
And don't give me something too complicated.
No, it's not complicated at all.
Why do you take drugs?
The stimulants help me get stuff done, and I feel like normally I'm kind of moving at a snail's pace.
The stimulants help you get things done, so... like the Adderall and stuff?
Yeah.
Okay.
And what's the price?
What does it cost you?
Um...
I mean, I know it's not good for my liver.
And if I abuse them, it can be like bad for my teeth and I can have bad sleep, which sometimes I do get bad sleep.
I mean, I work from home.
I'm very financially situated, so I'm not like failing as a provider or anything.
But I just feel weird that I even
Take them at all.
Like, like I'm deficient as some degree, but then at the same time, I think like Ayn Rand finished her book and she's like one of my favorite authors.
Yeah, but you don't want the last 30 years of Ayn Rand's life.
I guarantee you don't want that.
She was miserable, anxious, depressed, wrecked, self-sabotaged to an insane degree.
It was terrible.
She gave up on personal hygiene.
I mean, it's just, it was awful.
I didn't know that.
I just always thought to myself, well, some of my favorite books wouldn't exist.
Right.
I mean, you're not writing a book.
Yeah.
So it's like saying, well, the Beatles took LSD.
It's like, well, you're not the Beatles.
Right.
So even if that were a justification.
Okay.
So your concern is that you would lack energy if you didn't take the stuff, right?
Yeah, like, I've flipped houses and I've done some pretty intense work that sometimes I even look back on like, wow, I really did that.
It's almost a one-man show.
But obviously it takes a huge strain on my body and I don't, you know, I don't want to die of a heart attack or something.
I have a son and I don't want to... I'm sorry, but what does it do for you emotionally?
I mean, you're talking about the physical stuff, right?
And I'm not an expert on that or whatever, right?
But as far as the physical stuff goes, does it have an effect on your sense of self, your emotional presence, your comfort with yourself, your general happiness and security, your emotional availability, that kind of stuff, right?
So the weird thing is that it does make me emotionally unavailable sometimes when I'm really hyper-focused trying to get something done.
But other times I feel like it really gives me this razor knife clarity, toning out people's bullshit and getting to the heart of matters really quickly.
I feel like sometimes I can really rationalize through things much better, in a way.
Yeah, but hyperfocus and rationalization doesn't have anything to do with emotional availability.
Does it?
Um.
When I can kind of push aside like because I believe in God.
But I've been programmed from a young age with this.
Christian.
Bullshit and.
And I hate to say it like that because that sounds so disrespectful, but at least what I experience.
And I feel like when I'm in that hyper-rational state, it's almost like I just laugh at some of the things that used to bother me.
It almost feels like it brings clarity sometimes.
And that can make me feel good.
Okay, and what's an example of a particular clarity that you've had from drugs, or while on the drugs, that you consider valid?
And the reason I'm asking this is, you know, I'm not putting you in this category, of course, but there's tons of people who say, I get the greatest insights off weed, man, like I really understand my life.
And then you say, okay, well, whatever you understood, like what's an objective insight that you've got?
And you never get anything.
So I would normally look at certain Christians' lives and think, wow, you know, God really blessed their lives.
They must have something right.
And I would kind of rationalize myself normally into like following their footsteps with religion and Christianity.
Oh, like Ayn Rand with the Uppers, right?
Because you're kind of doing that with her, right?
She wrote this book!
It's okay!
And well, yeah, I suppose you're right.
But then on the uppers more, it would be like, yeah, why was Jesus going out to pray for mercy for himself?
He's God, but he's begging to God that God would spare him so God could save all of humanity from the path forward that God set for himself.
And then I just picture like an egg cracking, like this is your brain on organized religion.
And that's like a thought that I had recently, where it's just like, wow... That's not an argument, right?
That's sort of an emotional reaction?
I suppose... Like an analogy of an egg cracking is not exactly a syllogism, right?
Well, the argument of, you know, someone claiming to be God, but then begging mercy from God is... I feel valid.
Is what?
That's valid, right?
That's in the Bible, that's not an insight.
Right, but it doesn't make sense, is what I'm saying.
At least I feel that that doesn't make sense.
Okay, got it.
So, saying that you are God and then begging for forgiveness from God?
Who's supposed to be yourself in a world and reality that you created on a certain path.
Right.
That you determine.
Got it.
Got it.
Okay.
So that doesn't make much sense for you.
Uh, anything else?
Uh, yeah.
I mean, I guess that that's, that's one example.
Um,
I think I'll also it can make me as I said more direct which sometimes when I feel like my family propagates a lot of garbage to me with like you know the unaddressed like the or I should say the unhealed stuff with my brother and like some of the ways they've treated me in the past when I'm in that state it's like I really just don't care like I
The stuff I feel like I would normally get sucked up in, I'm just like, this is crap.
You guys, this is all garbage.
None of this serves me, none of this benefits me in any way.
You guys never want to make anything right, and I would rather just be doing stuff.
So is your argument the fact that your family's dysfunction bothers you, that's an argument for the drugs?
No, as I said, I think it's just because it makes me
So productive and I could just focus on any project or anything that I'm doing that I feel like it helps me tone out a lot of day-to-day garbage that and like I'm not even arguing that this is an excuse.
This is more of just how my brain is perceived it.
I feel like this is stuff that I don't know why I guess because of the fact that my family does
a lot of like nice things for me still like every Sunday they have us come over and they get us uh and they get like pizza and wings and we go for a walk and we chat and they hang out with the grandbaby and stuff like that where it's I'm like torn about it like they helped pay for the wedding and other stuff um because they they try to do nice things to be helpful but then
Like I said, I feel like other times they've failed me in a lot of ways and they don't really say sorry.
And like, they still would joke and they've said it a million times.
Oh, you know, he used to say, thank you for staying off the name.
Go on.
I could feel you like the name, the name is coming.
Yeah.
He used to say, I never asked to be born and they would laugh about it still.
Like that's funny to them.
Right.
Okay.
And how are your parents' lives?
You say your mother's doing well in real estate and so on, and your father?
Hello?
Yeah, sorry, can you hear me?
Yep.
Yeah, hold on a sec.
Okay, so sorry, I asked how your dad's doing.
Yeah, so he's older, he's near retirement, he's had health issues.
My little brother works for him, but I don't think he does much of the labor anymore.
I often think to myself I should figure out ways to just enjoy life with him while he's still alive and just try to appreciate what I can in a relationship with him.
Right.
Okay, got it.
All right.
And so you've got some drug use, though not obviously heavy, heavy stuff, and that's your major addiction, right?
And you feel a certain sense of childishness, is that right?
Is there anything else?
Yeah, like a lot of people talk about dignity and a job and, you know, there's this
I was raised in this go to church work your job be a family man kind of person and I feel like My I don't know I I feel like I don't want to be TMI but I have to express myself at the same time but I feel like me and my wife were pretty wild uh like
Sexually and I feel like I'm I don't really fit in with a lot of people and I'm somewhat happy being pretty reclusive to the world I I feel like most people have some kind of brain or psychosis that they Propagate and all these weird isms and I just I don't really trust people And um Frankly that's
It feels like I would almost rather just have my, my simple life and occasionally do drugs and just work on whatever project I feel like working on.
So, but why, why is that a problem if that's what you want to do?
Like I'm, I'm trying to sort of figure out, right.
Not every call has to be some big emergency, which is fine, but I'm trying to figure out what will constitute a successful call for you.
Right.
Now if it's like, well, you know, I'm kind of a, you know, maybe a little bit more on the introverted side and so on, it's like, yeah, that's fine.
I mean, I have no issue with that.
I mean, but is that a big problem?
I feel like I don't know what my role is.
I don't know what that means.
So what does that mean in practice?
Like, how would you know?
Let's say we talk, right?
How would you know what your role is?
I feel like I have all the time in the world and I just, like I said, I feel very cynical towards most of the world right now and I'm supposed to be raising this son and for me I guess what would constitute a successful
Call is just some idea of direction of how I should handle weirdness with my family.
So that's something I can understand.
So you have concerns about weirdness with your family?
Is that right?
Yeah.
I feel like they offer me a lot, but that comes at the cost of me having to kind of sweep how they've treated me in the past under the rug.
Okay.
And just again, I'm not disagreeing with you, but I just want to make sure that I understand.
Um, why is that a problem?
And I'm not saying it's not right.
So why is it a problem that you spend time with your family without them having apologized or taken ownership for what they did in the past?
And again, I'm not saying that it isn't a problem.
I just want to make sure I know what problem I'm solving.
Because I feel like I have some kind of like depressive mood swings which also might play into why I like to take drugs to supplement my feelings in life because I can't get resolution with my family um that I want and it makes me feel like a lot of my relationships and people I connect with are
Shallow.
Okay, got it.
Now, do you have a son or a daughter?
Oh, you have a son.
Sorry, you mentioned that, right?
Yes, a son.
Okay.
So, you have a son.
Now, let's say that when your son gets older, he starts hanging around with people who abuse him, who neglect him, who ignore him, who mock him, who put him down, who make fun of his sort of deepest, darkest secrets, and so on.
What would you say to him?
And he's like, well no, but they do, you know, they cook me dinner.
I would say, let's go do something so much better.
Let's go have fun together.
Let's go do something awesome, you know.
So you wouldn't listen to him, you wouldn't give him any advice, you'd just distract him the way that you distract yourself with work and drugs.
You understand how just encapsulated the whole issue was right there?
I'm gonna distract you!
Let's go do something!
Right?
So your son's saying, I have a problem, right?
Or your son's hanging out with these people, right?
And you find out about this, I guess your son tells you.
That would be paired with the message of these people aren't worth your time.
Okay.
But then he'd say, well, hang on.
I mean, weren't your family kind of mean to you and you hung out with them and I spent time with them and they never apologized.
They never really made amends.
I don't understand why, why it would be different.
I guess because family has a way of Stockholm-ing me.
Because I feel that on some level, you know, when holidays come around, I'm supposed to spend them with my family.
Because I... Okay, so then he would say, okay, so there are these people who treat me meanly and kind of insult me and don't acknowledge any wrongs they've done to me.
But, you know, I need people at my birthday party, so I'm gonna hang out with them.
I like having people to exchange presents for the Christmas, so... And would you say, yeah, that makes sense to me?
No, I will say there is one other thing to it with, because I'm also a real estate agent, my mom often has me do open houses for her properties that she has.
And so it does give me a lot of opportunity to get clients that way.
Okay, so again, I'm not sure what the problem is.
If you're making money and that's what you prefer, and I know this sounds snarky, I don't mean it that way at all.
Life is a bunch of compromises sometimes.
So, if it's like, well, you know, they did me serious wrong, and they did.
And they did.
I mean, they were such terrible parents that your brother tried to have you half-killed.
And they won't even take a stand, right?
So this is terrible, terrible, terrible stuff.
They dumped you basically out on the street and barely cared about what was happening to you for two years when you were 16, right?
I mean, if I've got anything wrong, please correct me.
No, you're not wrong at all.
I don't know why I have such a hard time internalizing that.
Right.
I mean, no, if I'm wrong, I don't want to be unjust or unfair.
No, I mean, you've heard me.
My natural reaction is to laugh.
And the poison in the family spilled out into the community.
Do you know how?
No.
You, as a child, sold drugs to children.
How are you going to feel
If you come home, your son is taking some hard drug and he's like, oh yeah, I got this from some kid in school.
How do you feel about that kid in school giving or selling drugs to your son?
That could get him killed, right?
I mean, a lot of this stuff is laced and it's not.
Like, you can test the purity and fentanyl and, like, all this kind of crap, right?
How do you feel about the kid in your son's neighborhood, or your neighborhood, who gave or sold drugs to your son?
I would always... I would be aggravated.
Incredibly.
Yeah, well I would view it as, you know, that kid probably seeing myself in that person, I would view the kid as a very harmful idiot.
Idiot?
It's not an idiot!
What do you mean it's an idiot?
He's getting the drugs, he's doing the markup, he's doing the math, he's doing the calculation, he's figuring out how to not get caught, he's assessing the risk, he's successful!
I didn't view it as a bad thing back then.
I didn't view it as harmful.
I did them myself.
Sorry, that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about how would you feel about the kid who gave or sold drugs to your son?
And the idiot is not the right answer.
I would feel like he's causing harm to my son.
Putting your son's life in danger, either through laced drugs or potential addiction, right?
Yeah.
How do you feel about what you did?
And with, you know, sympathy to the fact that you had a crazy, chaotic family, but lots of people who have crazy, chaotic families don't end up becoming drug dealers, right?
Yeah.
I mean, I didn't do perfect things as a teenager, to put it mildly, but not that, right?
So what's your relationship to that?
That's something I've been holding as a bookmark for like 80 minutes.
I guess that's hard to answer because I feel like when I took LSD back in the day, I felt like for the first time
I saw how people perceived me and that was what also really helped encourage me to try and avoid my family as much as humanly possible.
So it's a very complicated thing for me because I know that people have horror stories from drugs, but that wasn't my personal experience with it.
So your personal experience was that drugs were enlightening for you?
Yes.
Okay.
I guess I just have one.
I have two basic questions.
The first is, if the enlightenment you got from drugs was to stay away as far as possible from your family, you know what my next question is, right?
Why didn't I?
Why are you in business with your mom?
If you got these great insights that were deep truth that somehow justifies being a drug dealer, why are you in business with your mom?
Were the drugs wrong then or are you wrong now?
The drugs say, get as far away from your family as possible.
Either the drugs were wrong then or you're wrong now.
Unless I miss a third option.
It's always possible.
No, you're... Okay, so it was not a big insight that took the drugs, right?
And it doesn't take a lot of drugs if you have a really messed up house.
It doesn't take a lot of drugs to say, gee, I'd rather be... I'd be happier somewhere else.
And of course, where did you go?
You went from the place with the secret heroin addict, i.e.
your dad, to a place with an open weed addict that you supply drugs to.
There's a lot of addiction in that family.
Okay, so you didn't exactly get to a healthy place, did you?
No, I didn't really have a lot of options back then.
I was just a stupid 16-year-old.
Okay, you can keep insulting yourself if you want, but if you do that, I'm not going to continue the conversation.
Like, you can keep calling everyone who makes mistakes stupid and an idiot, right?
Okay.
I was, I was ignorant.
If that's the answer, then there's no philosophy, then I don't know why we'd be talking.
If the answer as to why anybody make mistakes, well, he was checked out, says your father-in-law.
He was having an affair.
He drank.
He just wasn't in tune to his family.
This, you know, when I was an idiot kid and, and this guy's stupid and right.
If you have this go-to thing called people are stupid.
You're trying to talk philosophy with me, but everyone, yourself included, gets the excuse called being stupid.
But if there is an excuse called being stupid, there's no such thing as philosophy.
Philosophy has to accept that people can think, and to not think is a choice.
Now, maybe you don't believe that, in which case there's no point talking to me, because that's my approach to everything.
People have the capacity to think, and they're fully responsible for not thinking.
I mean, the funny thing is, I mean, have you heard me a million times say, 150% self-ownership?
That you're responsible for what you do?
Yeah.
Okay, so why you keep trying to pull this nonsense on me about how people are too stupid to know what's best for them or they're checked out or they're dumb or idiots or... I don't quite understand.
See, I don't know.
It almost freaks me out because I have gone through phases where I've really distanced myself and had little involvement and been really kind of on that track very well.
It, but I feel like I, I grasped that and then I, and then I lose it.
And that kind of freaks me out because I have come to that before.
And you saying that, but didn't you come to that through LSD?
That's not coming.
That's not coming to something.
That's like saying, I have a toothache, but it's better because it took heroin.
No, it's not.
When I first started.
Kind of seeing, uh, my wife, I felt like I really was in this like peak state where I really had my family on a very short leash, very distant.
Um, and I felt like mentally I was crushing it.
I was listening to you like every single day I was reading all these books.
Yeah, but kind of not.
I mean, listening, yes.
I don't... If you're comfortable with your family and you say, well, they did me terrible harm.
They've never apologized.
They support the guy who half tried to have me killed.
My mother tried to cheat me out of ten grand.
It was almost like I had... No, I'm still talking.
So, but it's fine because I need a place to go on Thanksgiving.
They cook nice meals and I make some money in business with my mom.
So that's the deal.
You will give up integrity for money.
And I know that sounds like some big insult.
Like that's, I'm not even saying that's a bad thing.
That's the deal.
But if you call me and you say, Steph, I want to spend $500 on an iPad, I want the iPad, and I also want my $500, what am I going to say?
But you can't have both!
You can't have your cake and eat it too.
You can't have the $500 and the iPad, because the only way you get the iPad is you give up the $500, right?
And if you want to keep the $500, you have to give up the iPad.
Is that a fair analogy?
Yeah.
Okay, so do what you want.
Just be honest and say, look, I like the comfort of family.
I like having people to eat meals with.
I like going for walks and I like making money with my mom.
And to do that, I have to lie about my history and not confront them.
Now that's a deal, right?
And I know this sounds like I'm condemning.
I'm absolutely not condemning.
But if you're like, well, I want to abandon my integrity and honesty, and I also want to make money and get the approval of people who did me great harm, I'm just here to tell you, you can't have both!
So, is the problem that you think you can have both?
I'm trying to understand what the problem is here.
I mean, you know that there's a lot of corruption in your family, right?
You know that there was a lot of abuse and neglect in your family, right?
Am I wrong about that?
Yeah, I guess I felt like in some capacity I could spend time with them and not
In a way that the poison doesn't affect me.
Okay, but what do you mean by the poison?
At some level I feel like I compartmentalize them to just, this is the usefulness, this is what they are.
Okay, so you can use them and the price of using them is to lie to them.
To falsify your existence and your needs, right?
So, yes, you can use people for money.
Yeah, welcome to OnlyFans, right?
You can use people for money.
You can use them for companionship by lying to them and falsifying your experience and lowering your standards.
Yeah, that's a thing in life.
Right.
On some level, I thought that I could do it in a way where it wouldn't mentally affect me, but I feel like it does.
Okay, so tell me what your reasoning was about that process.
What's your reasoning?
Is it that I can falsify my history, bite my tongue, and lie about things and lower my standards, and that's not going to affect me?
That's what I'm trying to... Of course it's going to affect you, right?
I mean, that's like saying, well, I thought I could stick my hand in the fire and not get burned, right?
Of course falsifying your experience and lying and so on and lowering your standards enormously
I mean, if your wife does something that hurts you, I hope you say something, right?
Don't you?
Yeah.
Okay.
If you have a friend who does something that hurts you, you talk to your friend, right?
Yeah.
That's being honest.
That's having a relationship, right?
And your parents have done things that hurt you, and you don't talk to them about it, right?
Yeah.
That's fine.
I mean, just be aware of that, right?
I'm going into this situation, I now have to turn off my higher self, I have to lie through my teeth, and I have to completely crush my standards.
Reverse them, really.
But on the other side is a nice turkey dinner and some money for mom.
And again, I know this sounds like I'm trying to set it up like some... I'm not condemning you at all.
I mean, that's the deal.
Shut up, and here's some food, and here's some money.
And that's a deal, and if you take that deal, I don't have a huge problem with it.
But I don't know why you'd pretend it's otherwise.
You know, that's like me buying an iPad from someone and then filing a police report because they stole something from me.
They stole my $500!
And they say, no, he bought an iPad.
Here's the shipping receipt.
Here's the invoice.
Here's the, right?
And the police come back to me and say, what are you doing?
It's like, no, he stole my 500.
It's like, no, you bought the iPad.
That's your trade.
So, if you want to trade your honesty and, to some degree, your integrity for dinners, having other people in the room, and some money with your mom, that's the deal!
As I've said, it's not a violation of the non-aggression principle.
You're not initiating force or fraud, except maybe on yourself.
So, as I've said, you can do what you want, just be honest about it.
Yeah.
That you are for sale.
That your values and your integrity is for sale.
And that's not the end of the world.
What is the end of the world is not lying to your parents.
It's lying to yourself.
That's the mess.
That's where you end up without any guidance at all.
Then your GPS is out the window, right?
So you say, okay, well, I make money with mom and I like having grandparents in my son's life.
And so to do that, I'll shut up and lower my standards.
Okay.
The problem of course comes down the road when your son wants to lower his standards or your children.
I assume you'll have a bunch of kids.
So your kids are going to want to lower their standards for the sake of peer pressure.
And you're going to have to tell them, yeah, you should.
I mean, yes, I found it very valuable and you should just don't lie to yourself about it.
If the price of going out with your buddies is getting drunk, well, you gotta have something to do on a Saturday night, you should go out and get drunk.
If they don't want you around if you're sober and yourself, then, well, you know, we're social animals, we need people, so go get drunk.
Absolutely.
If you've got a daughter and she says, the only way I can get boys to like me is sleep with them, you say, sure!
According to this theory, right?
Yeah.
Because being liked is more important than being good.
Making money is more important than having integrity in this sense, right?
With regards to your mother, right?
Yeah.
She confuses, baffles and frustrates you.
She's done you great harm.
She still makes fun of you.
She doesn't own up to anything she did.
She hasn't apologized in any meaningful way or made restitution.
But you can make some money with her.
And again, I'm not trying to put you down for this.
There have been times in my life I've traded integrity for money.
The problem wasn't that.
The problem was I lied to myself about it.
I'm just, I'm telling you this from bitter experience for myself and I did it way older than you, so I have much less excuse.
So again, I'm not trying to give you some goading.
You've got to do this.
I mean, yeah.
It happens.
Like, honestly, if somebody, I don't know, would offer me a billion dollars, I don't know, whatever it is, to praise someone I didn't like, I'd be tempted.
So, I guess I just, I can't tell you what to do other than you don't get your iPad and your $500.
If you take money from people who've abused you, be honest about that exchange.
And kind of continue to abuse you by denying the reality of your life and your history with them, right?
Yeah.
So there's a general idea out there in the world.
I think there's some valid aspects to it.
And it says, what drains you of energy is contradiction.
What drains you of energy is contradiction.
In other words, you can't get very far if one leg is walking forward and the other leg is trying to walk backwards.
If you both push and pull the door that you're supposed to open, it doesn't move, right?
So, contradiction drains you of energy.
And unconscious contradictions are the worst of all because we don't even know what's causing a lack of energy.
Now, and the reason I was thinking of this is that you had
A statement around how you like the drug, or the drugs, because they give you energy, right?
So then the question is, why are you short on energy?
One answer could be that there's a contradiction that's unconscious for you.
Which is, you've got a hurt child begging to tell the truth, and you have a greedy adult saying, take the money.
In your heart, right?
You want the approval of your parents, and you want the approval of your conscience.
But those two are to some degree at odds, if I understand the situation correctly.
You want to tell the truth, and you want the approval of people who will only accept you if you lie.
Tell me if I'm anywhere warm.
No, you're 100% accurate.
It's it's strange just hearing you lay it out so eloquently because I had this crude note that was similarly coming to this conclusion but yet I just like when you were talking about what my family uh did and how horrible it was and you start to like what hearing someone else say it and not myself
Just makes it sound so much worse.
Well, that's because I don't say it with a little laugh and excuses.
And I'm not trying to put you down by that.
I completely understand that defense.
I've had it myself.
So again, this is nothing negative towards you, but I say it without the attendant distractions, dissociations, and defenses.
I'm just saying it as it is.
This is what happened.
And it's terrible.
Of course it's terrible.
You wouldn't want to, can you imagine kicking your son out of the house because he didn't want to follow your cult?
No, I still don't even understand why everyone circumcises that, like... Yeah, yeah, no kidding.
I'm just... People have argued with me flagrantly about it, and said, I can't believe you're not doing that to your son.
Well, how about a society that is so addicted to free stuff they'll have their children born into two million dollars worth of debt and unfunded liabilities that it's impossible for them to pay off?
Sorry, I've got this whole chapter coming up in Peaceful Parenting about the empirical evidence that society does not really love its children.
I mean, a politician who comes and says, listen, we've got to really cut back.
We've got to live totally lean because we can't allow our children to be born into this level of debt would never be voted in.
Yeah.
People love their kids.
I mean, how about, how about my kids traumatized from environmentalist propaganda in government schools?
I should really homeschool.
No!
Because I'm getting paid 40 grand to make PowerPoints.
I don't know.
It's crazy.
So, yeah, I mean, I'm with you, right?
I mean, you couldn't imagine kicking your son out.
Yeah, it's kind of, on some level, like my son is opening my own eyes because...
Just stuff that, and I know he's only 10 months old, but there's already so much evidence for things we do that's totally the opposite of what everyone else does.
And you can see the awareness in his eyes at 10 months.
He's judging, evaluating, thinking.
He can't speak that much yet, of course, but you can see everything going on.
He's speaking a lot too, honestly.
Fantastic.
Yeah, he's just crushing everything.
He's incredibly healthy and I have
So many other babies that I know that have all these little issues and all these things.
And he's just like.
I look at it.
Like.
It's so insane to me because I think about like when I was born, I was a month old and my mom went on a vacation to Hawaii for a month.
Huh?
Weren't you breastfed?
No.
I, no, I had allergies and so it was just given a formula very quickly.
Or maybe you were given formula and then you ended up with allergies.
Yeah.
I think breast milk does help with that stuff.
Right.
I mean, she says that she, I had allergies, like as I was born from breast milk, but whatever the case is, I still have- Like your mother's case is that you were allergic to breast milk, but fine with formula?
Yeah.
So I guess, my God, formula without balance.
Yeah.
So I have health defects that none of my other brothers have in health issues that none of them have.
And like, to this day, I know it's because of that.
Why did you, do you know why she went to Hawaii and what was his story about that?
They want a free vacation.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
Got it.
Well, that makes sense.
Well then, then who can falter?
I mean, it's free stuff.
I mean, you pay for it, maybe, with some of your health, but... Yeah, the rest of my life.
Yeah, yeah.
But at least you got a week in Hawaii.
Oh, a month!
No, a month in Hawaii!
And also, why is a new mother entering a vacation sweepstake?
If you came across your wife doing that, you'd be like... It was the electrical supply house.
You automatically get it if you buy a certain amount of stock.
That was what it was.
All right.
Okay, okay.
Got it.
But here's the thing too, if the drugs helped you with insights, you wouldn't need to call me, right?
Yeah.
So you're calling me because the drugs or whatever has not worked in giving you the insights.
So when you say to me, but the drugs gave me insights, it's like, well then why are you calling?
Because wouldn't the drugs, I mean, you say you had something like this, but wouldn't the drugs give you this, I mean, insight?
Like, why would I want the approval of people who only approve me if I'm not myself?
It's more of an energy thing than insight related, but yeah, I don't think it's sustainable.
I don't think it's sustainable.
That's why I called you saying I think it's a problem.
Right.
So let's get back to you as a teenager.
If you have, and I'm not saying you do, but if you have
Some issues of conscience regarding being a drug dealer.
That's important to know.
If you don't have any issues of conscience regarding being a drug dealer, that's also important to know.
Um... Because the one thing that I've noticed, of course, is that you're... You have excuses for people, right?
Yeah.
So then, of course, my question is... Why do you have excuses for people?
Now, do you know the most common reason why people have excuses for people?
For others?
Their parents would give them excuses?
Nope!
They're hiding?
I'm not sure what that means.
Like, if they accepted, like, full responsibility for their actions, it would mentally cause them harm, or feel like it's harming them, so they make excuses?
Well, we make excuses for others because we make excuses for ourself.
I mean, it's not about others.
It's about us.
And it struck me that the same excuse you give to others, you gave to yourself about the drug dealing.
I was just, I was an idiot kid or whatever it was, right?
And the constant thing you say is, yeah, people are stupid.
They just checked out, right?
That kind of stuff, right?
So why, and of course you give, I assume, excuses to your parents too, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so why do you have such practice giving excuses rather than holding accountability?
And we know that, right?
Don't we?
Listen, I mean, with all the understanding of what happened to you as a kid,
I mean, and sympathy for that, right?
I'm not trying to throw you under the bus here.
You were really badly maltreated as a child, right?
But the only way that you can give yourself excuses as a child is to hold your parents accountable for the immorality they did.
Do you see what I mean?
Otherwise you're just this causeless guy who caused great destruction in your community for no reason whatsoever!
You just became a drug dealer and gave drugs to kids!
For no reason!
That's not true, is it?
You're right.
So, if you're gonna say... I have excuses for being a drug dealer... Then... You have to be more mad at your parents.
Am I wrong?
But if you give your parents excuses... I guess you give yourself excuses and everybody gets excuses.
Okay, but then you have a philosophy which says nobody can be held accountable for anything.
In which case, why do you feel bad?
But you do feel bad, right?
Right.
So that, you have to deal, I think you have to deal with the fact that you feel bad, that you also of course want your son to have emotional, like accountability for the wrongs he's done, right?
It's so weird because I could push what you're saying right now onto my wife, but not myself.
What do you mean?
Because that's basically what I said when we were dealing with her family.
Um, was, you know, you have to look at them for what it is, no excuses and really feel legitimate anger when you process it.
Right.
And lay it out.
And she did.
And I don't know why I could push that on someone else, but not myself.
Right.
Listen, I have, I have sympathy for what happened to you as a child.
Of course.
Right.
It was terrible.
But not for your parents.
Right?
But you keep giving excuses to your parents, which means, of course, that you now need excuses for yourself.
And then nobody's accountable for anything, and then you can't protect your children!
Yeah.
I need to stop it and just accept that I'm not biting a bullet, that I'm actually just freeing myself and my mind.
How do you feel about selling or giving drugs to children?
You didn't have to.
And you weren't a total kid?
You supplied drugs to addicts, including your friend's father, right?
Now, again, could be lots of good answers to all of this, right?
But what are they?
And I'm not saying there aren't.
I want to know what they are for you.
It's so hard for me to answer that, because for such a large portion of my life, and even now, I never really viewed my experiences with LSD as a negative thing.
No, no, I didn't talk about taking it, did I?
What did I do?
Right, but supplying it, because these were all my friends.
We all did it together.
Knew each other.
I still know these people pretty well.
So I look back on it and I I see now in the rearview how Reckless and Harmful or potentially harmful
It can be.
But at the same time, as far as I'm aware, nothing super horrible happened to any of those people.
What do you mean?
I basically know everyone.
It was all my friends.
So, you sold drugs to your friends in high school, right?
Yeah.
And how their lives are good?
Yeah.
I'm not disagreeing, right?
So they're happily married and moral people and... I mean... That's the only definition of... Right.
I mean, there's all kinds of varying degrees, like some of them
A lot of them had trouble with alcohol, non-drug-related, but a lot of them had alcohol... Sorry, why would that not be drug-related?
Because I was always fervently anti-alcohol.
I've never been a drinker.
No, but sorry, addiction is addiction, right?
And avoidance of emotional truth, which is what addiction's all about.
Whether that's alcohol or drugs, it's still the same principle, right?
I mean, you know from Bomb in the Brain, if you've listened to that, I'm sure you have, that child abuse leads to a variety of addictive behaviors, right?
Right, but what I mean is a lot of these guys, like some of them introduced me to weed or would bring alcohol around and
That was never my thing or about it, and a lot of these people, I would even encourage them to stop smoking weed or to stop drinking, and we would argue about it.
Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm still not sure what you mean.
You would say to people, stop smoking weed while selling them weed?
I'm sorry if I've missed something in the story, but...
No, so the weed thing was a very brief period of my life that ended at, you know, basically when I moved back in with my parents on one of my LSD trips, I realized it was bad for me.
Okay.
And that was another big thing I guess I attributed to the LSD was it basically made me feel like
And, uh, an idiot for smoking weed.
And it just made me feel like every toxic possible thing about it in this really intense way where I just felt so stupid afterwards.
I never touched it again.
Right.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
So it was the LSD that you were selling more off.
Is that right?
Yes.
Okay.
And that you felt was a good thing.
Yeah, because I felt like it helped me growing along.
Right.
Yeah.
Okay.
Got it.
Okay.
And, um, it is still your opinion.
Is that right?
That the LSD is, is a good thing because of the insight factor.
Is that right?
I think it could be, but I am also aware that.
Some people have negative experiences with it that are just negative experience.
They don't get anything out of it.
They just have psychosis and issues and bad experiences on it.
That never happened to me or the friend that I was with at the time, but I do fully acknowledge that is something that happens.
It just never was my experience with it.
And it was, you don't have to tell me how old you are, but you were doing the LSD at 16, you got the insights, but, you know, many, many years later, you haven't internalized or acted upon those insights, right?
In many of them, right?
Because you are still around people who you have to lie to.
Right.
Some of the things like quitting weed, um, it made me more health conscious at the time with like diet and different things.
I don't know.
It just made me like hyper aware of things.
And then as time went, if I, you know, if I didn't take it, um, yeah, I would almost drift away from that kind of mindset.
And I'm not saying that you need it or anything like that.
I'm just saying that was my experience.
It just created a heightened awareness of what, whatever was going on in my life at the time.
Okay.
Got it.
So, um, let's say seven or eight years after you first started doing drugs, you are still doing drugs and in a highly compromised unconscious position with your family, right?
Right.
So I stopped doing LSD.
No, I get that.
I understand that.
I understand that.
Obviously, you're not saying that you need to continuously be on LSD to get these insights, because that would not be an insight.
That would be an addiction, right?
Right.
I'm aware of that.
But when I say to you, cause I'm just trying to follow the reasoning here and maybe there's nothing here, right?
So I'm just saying that I'm trying to follow the reasoning here.
So I say, do you have any bad conscience about selling LSD to kids?
And you're like, no, because of the insights.
And I say, well, the insights didn't really take, so that's not really a good answer.
So if the, if there's no good answer called, ah, but the insights and the wisdom and the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Right.
Which if you genuinely had, you wouldn't be calling me right.
Right.
So, if we take away the, no, no, no, LSD was great because of all the insights.
Does that affect your conscience about selling it to children?
If we take away the insight thing?
Yeah.
It just feels...
Exploitative.
Well, you were recreating the trauma, you were transferring the trauma, right?
Also, you said, I mean, at the beginning of the convo, and I'm not trying to catch you out or anything, just things that I remember, you talked to me how your brother was annoyed with you because of how popular you were, right?
No, he wasn't annoyed by that.
He, um, he, he, he liked that fact because... Sorry, but he recognized that you were... Yes.
You were homeschooled and the most popular guy at school, right?
Which I think is actually that it's kind of funny, but... So, you would also, through the process of this, you would have, uh, to some degree made it cool, right?
Because you were so popular.
Yeah.
How many kids do you think you sold drugs to?
As a kid yourself, right?
So I understand all of that, but how many kids do you think you sold drugs to?
Well, me, probably like 20, but I, but my, I don't know.
I can't speak for my brother because he did that too.
No, I'm just asking you.
Probably about 20.
And it was all people that I knew or was friends with.
And often I would take it with them.
It was like an experience we would have together.
Right.
But, I mean, you were still supplying, right?
Yeah.
Also, of course, by giving money to criminals, you fueling criminal activity in your community, right?
Yeah.
It's such a weird thing to reflect on.
Cause now I just think about those experiences.
Like sometimes we just like stay up all night and like talk about personal relationship dynamics and things with our families and all this stuff that just seems very like not normal for teens.
Hmm.
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, I may, maybe drugs give you connections, but they certainly don't give you ethics.
Right.
Yeah.
And listen, so the reason I'm asking you this, and you can mull this over on your own, but the reason I'm asking you this is that when you are comfortable with your own conscience, corrupt people don't have any hold over you.
Now, maybe it's the drug selling, maybe it's something else, I don't know, or maybe it's nothing!
Maybe I'm totally barking up the wrong tree.
But the question is, why are you avoiding the corruption of the people around you?
Because the way that you maintain these relationships or these pretend relationships, because if you're lying to people, you're not in a relationship.
Right.
So why do you give excuses to people?
Why do you like, this is, this is back to like, why is your, um, why is your girlfriend's sorry, why is your wife's father around?
Right.
Why is your family around?
And they, you know, I mean, I guess your wife's father made some movements towards apologies and restitution, but not much.
So why are all these people in your life?
Why do you have such low standards that are unconscious, right?
So why do you have such low standards?
Because it costs you to raise your standards.
Now, when we raise our standards for other people, we raise our standards for ourselves.
It's this funny little trick our brain always does called universality, right?
So why is it hard for you to raise your standards?
I don't get the sense that it's your wife.
Because she has already dropped the MOAB on her family about the prior sexual abuse and other things too, right?
So why is it hard for you to raise your standards?
Well, it's kind of like saying to someone, why is it hard to shoot a gun that shoots back at you at the same time?
Well, you don't want to shoot that gun, right?
Because it hurts you.
Does that make sense?
Are there things that you've done that you need to confront in yourself that when you raise the standards, you're not shocked?
So when I raised my standards, I had to look hard in the mirror and it's a painful thing to do.
There's a reason why so many people keep their standards low.
I'm not, not, not, you've got good standards, so I'm not trying to put you in that category, but why do so many people have standards that are so low?
Because raising their standards challenges their own vanity, their own sense of themselves as good.
Right?
So I was involved in some relationships that were pretty corrupt.
And I made excuses.
And if pressed, I would blame others.
But eventually, and this was more, you know, I kind of had to, it wasn't even really a choice for a variety of reasons.
But eventually I just had to stop.
Attacking the corruption in the world and start looking in the mirror.
If corrupt people are in my life, it has to be because we have something in common.
Usually what we have in common is the avoidance of conscience.
We've all done things we're not proud of.
We've all done things that are wrong and that we knew were wrong at the time.
Now, how do we deal with that?
I mean, you're Christian, right?
Or you're religious, right?
Yeah, I believe in God.
Believe in God.
What's the Christian, or let's just say Christian, that's I think what we're both familiar with, so what's the Christian answer as to, I did wrong?
Make it right?
Well, first of all, everyone's a sinner.
Right?
Only Jesus is perfect.
Everyone else is a sinner.
So, of course you did wrong.
You're human.
Human beings do wrong.
But you can make it right.
So, one of the reasons why Christian societies are often so moral is because there's a methodology for dealing with the inevitable imperfections of betraying one's values.
What is your answer as to having done wrong, which we all have done, what is your answer as to having done wrong?
Now, in the past you said, I didn't think it was wrong at the time, I was a stupid kid, like this what you said in this conversation, right?
But if those things aren't true,
Then you're covering up your conscience.
Covering up your conscience means you have to lower standards with yourself.
Lowering standards with yourself means you lower standards with others and you're subject to corrupt people.
They have hold over you.
The devil gains control over you over the avoidance of your own conscience.
That's one of sort of Christian 101 stuff, right?
Yep.
I don't regret
I was pooping myself when I was three months old.
That's fine.
It's natural, right?
If you have kind of like, well, I was a drug dealer or other things that I'm, you know, maybe we haven't talked about, we don't have to, but you know, we all have to scan our own conscience and say, okay, well, what did I do that was wrong?
I could go through my own list.
I've talked about it before, but it doesn't particularly matter.
But yeah, I was involved in some bad stuff.
I did some bad stuff.
And it wasn't even bad, like, okay, oh, I have the excuse of my childhood.
Okay, but if I say I have the excuse of my childhood, then I have to give everyone else the excuse of my childhood too.
Or their childhoods, right?
If I say, well, I did this wrong thing, but I had a bad childhood, it's like, but then I can't get mad at my mom because she had a bad childhood.
Yeah, I just need to.
What's your, how do you atone?
For the wrongs you've done?
To some degree, to some degree, you can't.
A tone or there's sometimes there isn't a tone that but I think the The obvious step I that comes to mind for myself is just Accepting that I was spreading escape as degeneration Illegal
Activities onto others and perpetuating my own issues onto others.
And not trying to view it as any potentially good thing or just oh well maybe it could have been good or just looking at why I was where I was and accepting that for what it is.
Right, because if you haven't gone through the process of self-confrontation for bad things, and finding a way for there to be atonement, you don't fundamentally expect atonement from others.
Like, why is it that you're okay with your parents not having made any atonement?
Because you haven't.
Why are you okay with your parents not confronting the things that they did that were wrong?
Because you haven't now, again, I know you were 16 and, and all of that.
So I give you a lot of outs for that.
I'm not saying you're at the same level as your parents.
You were still subject to their rules, their whims.
So I'm not putting you on the same level as your parents.
It's so weird because even because I've gone through many phases of my life and even it's just, excuse the expression, a trip, because even
With some of the trips where I, you know, sometimes I just said, okay, I'll, you know, it's none of this is recent, but even in my younger years after not tripping for a while on LSD, I would trip.
And then what I would do is come to these realizations and I would go and I would apologize to a bunch of people that I had done wrong to, which is just such a weird mind warp.
Hmm.
I went to three proms.
In high school.
I went to three proms because I had three girlfriends.
That wasn't good.
So you were popular too.
No, I know.
I was just good looking.
No, and charismatic and all of that.
But no, I went to three proms because I had three girlfriends.
That wasn't right.
I mean, I wasn't sleeping with them.
So it was like, I don't know, whatever.
It wasn't like some big issue that way.
But it wasn't good.
It's, it's still emotional pain.
It was wrong.
It was, it was a betrayal of trust.
It was wrong.
Now I can say, well, but I was, I don't know, 16 or 17 or whatever.
And I was on my own and yes, those excuses are not unimportant.
Right.
I mean, but you see how that's weird for me?
Like what, what is?
Um, tripping and then having that thought where then I I've gone and apologize to people in my life where it's brought me to like moral.
Conclusions.
No, it hasn't brought you to moral.
Because moral is universal.
It's made you feel bad about specific things, but drugs won't give you principles.
Right, no, that's... They'll give you insights, maybe feelings, but they don't give you principles.
Yeah.
Drugs will say, I shouldn't smoke this cigarette.
They won't say don't smoke cigarettes.
But actually, I don't know if that's true because I don't know a lot of other people who would take that and then think, oh, I need to go make this right in my life.
Oh, come on!
That's as common as dirt!
You've never heard about the mawkish, sentimental, I-love-you-drunk-who-repents-for-everything-and-then-doesn't-remember-the-next-day?
I'm so sorry I didn't do the right thing.
I love you.
Sloppy, sentimental drunk in vino veritas is a cliche as old as Rome.
I would treat myself better than the sentimental drunk, but you're right.
It's the same general principle though, which is you feel better about yourself, but you avoid the principles.
You're right.
Right.
If the principle is, I feel bad about something I did, so I'll apologize to someone.
That's not a principle.
That's an individual instance, which is fine.
But if the general principle is, moral people apologize for the harm they've done.
Okay.
Who in my life did me wrong and hasn't apologized?
That's philosophy.
A drug won't give you that.
A drug will say, I feel bad because I shopped it from this store.
I'm going to go and make restitution to this store.
As opposed to,
The initiation of force and the transfer of property in every circumstance is immoral.
You know that kind of thing?
Yeah, it's like quick fix clarity being sold.
I'm selling lies to people and myself.
Right, right.
Because you guys were all talking about these relationship dynamics and all of that.
You know, again, maybe there were a couple of connections, but those connections obscure as much as they reveal.
Do you think you solved it by apologizing to one person?
Sorry, go ahead.
The conversations might have pertained truth, or some of the revelations might have been true, but if my mind isn't actually healed, if I'm not actually thinking clearly, normally, and this is just like some fix, then it's not viewing myself as someone who can think clearly or be my, I hate the phrase, best self, but yeah.
Well, it doesn't give you integrity.
It gives you sentimental reaction.
Yeah.
Emotional reaction.
Well, yeah, but it's more about sentiment because it's avoiding the principle, right?
You know, it's like the, the mom who's.
Oh, it's not even, I wouldn't say avoiding.
I'm sorry.
And says all the way in the future.
Well, I apologize already.
What more do you want from me?
Right.
It's not real.
Sorry.
Go ahead.
Well, I wouldn't say it was necessarily avoiding because I would genuinely think that I'm doing something right.
No, you're avoiding the principle because if you hadn't been avoiding the principle, you wouldn't be in this nonsense with your family.
Because if the principle is, if you do someone wrong, you really have to apologize so you're not a good person.
Say, okay, well, I'm going to bring that principle universally to everyone around me.
My parents owe me apologies.
If they don't give me apologies, they're not good people.
But that's not where you are.
So you got insights about yourself and a couple of connections here and there that are scattered, but you didn't get a principle.
Only philosophy can give you the principles.
It's like the guy who dreamt about the structure of the carbon atom.
Only science could validate that.
The dream didn't.
The dream just gave him a connection.
Yeah In raising my standards, I just have this fear that I'm Going to feel rejuvenated or like I have clarity and then I
Walk out that door or end this call and then, you know, I'll do some adjustment or have some game plan and then just not actually be a different person.
No, you're concerned that philosophy is like a drug that it just wears off and you go back to the way things were, right?
Yeah.
But that's up to you.
That's up to you.
I mean, I suppose if we look at thought as a drug, you can keep taking it or you can stop taking it.
Right?
So if you make a vow to yourself, I'm going to think and try and be honest with myself and act in terms of principles.
I mean, you either you will or you won't, right?
Yeah.
And I don't know why some, I swear, like that just reminds me of the highlighted section of
Atlas Shrugged that I have, that I posted, I liked it so much, where Ayn Rand goes on the rant about the willful zoning out that people do.
Right.
And the act to not think.
And I just, like I said, I swear, I felt like I was so in control on the ball at some points in my life.
Right, because you were dealing with specific instances rather than acting on general principles.
It's like playing whack-a-mole rather than getting rid of the moles, right?
Yeah.
Bailing the water out of the ship while there's a giant hole still in it.
That's right.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm acting, oh, the ship's better.
Oh, it's bad again.
Oh, it's bad.
That just means you haven't dealt with the... Right.
I can sit there and get from point A to point B as I endlessly bail water out, but it's pretty tiring.
Yeah.
Well, and because you're tiring and because you're tired with this circular process, this lack of progress, this lack of consistent progress.
Because you're tired.
It creates that cycle of cynicism and that depressive state and then... Well, cynicism is the idea that principles don't work and it's like, well, if you don't apply them, of course they don't work.
If I want to lose weight and I have a great diet, but I don't take the diet and I say diets don't work, it's like, diets work?
You don't!
And people get cynicism by saying principles don't work.
Well, they do work, but you have to work them.
You have to do them.
You have to enact them.
I don't have corrupt people in my life.
I don't.
They're not anywhere, but they're a thousand miles of my mind space.
It works.
I mean, you got to do it, obviously, and there's pain in doing it sometimes.
But it works.
Cynicism is why I want to have my cake and eat it too.
I want to have these principles, but I don't want to apply them consistently.
Oh look, the principles aren't working.
Okay, well, if you keep binging on cheesecake in the middle of your diet, you can... I don't know if there's any point complaining about that I'm so cynical about diets.
It's like, no, you're just eating cheesecake, right?
Yeah.
So listen, I know we've had a good old long chat.
Is there anything you wanted to mention at the end?
Listen, I really do appreciate the chat and do apologize earlier for jumping the gun about something that you were right about and being kind of snarky about it too.
So I'm sorry about that.
But is there anything that you want to mention at the close here?
No, I just want to thank you for all that you've done.
I know that it sounds like I have so much to work on and I need to
Uh, really apply these principles and you don't have much to work on.
The only thing is you only, you only have consistency to work on.
That's not that much.
But I do want to say you have really impacted my life in a lot of ways.
Like I don't think I ever would have gone through what I went through with my wife or gotten to this point.
Uh, how did I not listen to your show so much?
And, um, if there's hard, there's so many things like your truth about series that, uh,
I've enjoyed so much.
A lot of books I've read, books on parenting.
You've impacted my life in a very, very positive way.
I'm just very grateful for all that you do.
Well, I'm perfectly thrilled, and I really appreciate your kind words, and you know, you now get to impact other people through this kind of call, and I really do thank you, and give you massive congratulations!
I mean, you're a wonderful young man, you're doing some amazing stuff, and congratulations on your marriage, congratulations on being
A father and you just doing fantastically well.
And I, uh, I really, really appreciate that and admire you for it.
