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April 16, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:39:38
How Can I Save My Brother? Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Hello, hello, can you hear me?
Hello.
Hey, how's it going?
I'm good.
Well, yeah, I'm all ears.
Sounds like quite an exciting situation.
Do you want to fill me in?
Yes, let me find my notes.
Yeah, so the main, my brother is engaged, currently engaged to
someone who I have some serious concerns about, just the way she treats him and how she still,
she's still involved in the side of my family who are kind of abusive.
And I I really don't think it's good for my brother to be around them.
And she still tries to actively have them be a part of his life and her life.
And I just see him, uh, kind of going down a bad path, especially if he gets in a marriage with her.
Well, um, I'm happy to hear more.
That's not much detail to go on, so if you want to, you know, we're in maybe the initial tooth-pulling part of the conversation, but I'm all ears.
If you want to tell me what's been going on with your family and that background of the people he's still in touch with, if you know anything about her family and all of that, I'm all ears.
My parents just finalized their divorce this January So that's the most recent thing that's happened.
Uh, but Uh The uh, the main issue with my dad is he We never had a like a paternal relationship I never had a paternal relationship with him and um, he would often blame me for that Like, I remember being really little and trying to, uh, show interest in his interests and like fishing and baseball and just trying to be like the best at what, like the sports I was in and try to get his attention and show him that, like, try to have a connection with him.
And it never really happened.
And then.
As I got older, he would start picking on me for the fact that I didn't hang out with him as much or I seemed to not like him.
And so I would try to go on errands with him and be around him and it just never, nothing came from it.
So I finally just kind of gave up.
And that's when he started really, um, I guess, uh, picking, like really picking on me and kind of pushing me around.
And he, it was like, he was angry at me all the time and I just kind of hid from him and Tried to stay away from him.
And so how old were you when that sort of flip where you try to chase him to you not chasing him anymore and then him turning on you?
How old were you there?
I was around 14.
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
All right.
So sorry.
Go ahead.
Yeah.
So he would start like he would kind of get really angry and yell and Bro things and uh then he would try to like fake apologize like he he he would uh say oh i didn't mean to do that i didn't mean to call you that those names i didn't mean to throw it but you you know you you can't you know i don't like it when you do like when you disrespect me or when you ignore me
And he's like, I'm trying to have a relationship with you, but you're just cold and distant.
No, I'm trying to have a relationship.
you're not opening up to me and and uh he would just he would just blame me for the fact that
um we don't have a relationship.
And then he would kind of Be okay to be around for a bit and then it would just get worse again.
And that kind of repeated for, I guess, many years until, uh, my parents finally separated and I wasn't around him anymore that often.
And that's what's going on at the moment.
Is that right?
The separation?
Uh, yes, they're finally divorced and I've kind of cut all contact with him.
Okay, I'm sorry to hear that, but what would he... I mean, he wasn't physically violent, if I understand this correctly, but he would say some pretty terrible things, and what were the things that he would say that would, you know, really hit your heart?
He would say that I was lazy, and disrespectful, and he would...
He'd occasionally, like, call me, uh, I think, well, I don't have a memory of this, specifically, but, um, I, my mom has said that, um, he's, like, called me, like, a lazy B-word, essentially, and called me other cuss words like that.
I don't think it was directly to my face.
I remember him apologizing for it, but not remember him calling me it.
Oh, okay.
Got it.
I'm sorry about that.
I mean, I have a daughter myself, and the idea of calling her names is, I mean, honestly, completely incomprehensible, but obviously it's quite common, and I'm really sorry for that, just as a whole.
Okay.
And your relationship with your father, when did you, when did you stop seeing him or them?
Stop?
Um, um, I guess it would have been kind of around last year when I really, like, that's when I finally blocked him on the phone.
I blocked his phone number and stopped receiving texts and would try to avoid places that he was going to be.
And was there something in particular that prompted that or was it more of an accumulation or how did that happen?
There was a specific incident where I just got sick of him where he I was still, I had just gotten married, but I was still on his insurance and I went to the dentist.
And so the part of the bill wasn't covered.
And so they sent him a bill because he's on the insurance.
And he, I remember getting a phone call from him and got it, getting a really bad feeling.
And usually when that, when I get a phone call and there's a bad feeling around it, I know he's going to yell at me.
So I didn't answer.
And then it turns out that he called the dentist and yelled at the dentist lady about the insurance.
And that's when I decided to just, I'm not gonna, like even he's, even him contacting me through the phone is dangerous.
So I decided to just cut him off from there completely.
Okay, I get that.
And what's your relationship with your mother like or was throughout your childhood and now?
It's okay.
I've been kind of angry at her in the recent years because of how long she stayed with him and just like how she's I mean, she is kind of learning not to, like she's coming to grips with what had happened and she's recognizing that she probably shouldn't stay as long with him.
So I'm still kind of healing from that, but I'm not, I still speak with her and I still let her see my daughter.
Sorry, so first of all, congratulations on the marriage and congratulations on the parenthood.
I just wanted to be clear about that.
That's wonderful.
And I don't know how you're feeling over the course of starting this conversation.
How's your heart?
Shaky.
Yeah, because the communication is a little tense on your side, and I understand that.
I mean, this is difficult stuff to talk about.
Is there anything that you know?
Like, shake it out or relax a little bit?
Because I feel like you haven't blinked since we started talking.
Yeah.
I just need to...
I guess chip away at it, if that makes sense.
Yeah, it's a safe space!
Okay, I hate that phrase, but it kind of is.
Okay, so I'm trying to sort of figure out, so with your mom, when you said that her fault, and I know this is not obviously the whole relationship, but it's what I got, you said her fault was that she stayed with your dad for too long, is that right?
Yeah, but that's kind of my issue with her.
I mean, I'm not as angry with her as I was, like, last year.
Okay, well, last year, what would you have said?
And, you know, maybe right, maybe wrong, but last year, what would you have said her faults are?
It involves a lot with my brother.
Um, she doesn't... Are you okay?
Do you need some water?
I'm just curious.
Yeah.
Sorry.
She... A couple of times over the course of doing these shows, I've had a coughing fit.
So it does happen, but that's all right.
She doesn't recognize the fact that one of the reasons why my brother isn't really communicating with us anymore is because, um, That he might be angry at her.
Okay, no, but I was asking what you would have said about your mother last year when you were more angry with her, not what your brother might say now.
She will often talk about how my brother isn't speaking with her anymore and how he's becoming distant and I get angry at her because she would She's like complaining to me about this.
And I'm like, the obvious reason is because, um, she, she's, she, you know, she stayed with, um, my dad for so long and she's kind of, she would play the victim sometimes and kind of Fall into becoming a victim.
Ignore the signs of danger and fall into becoming a victim and then complain how she's a victim and that would irritate me.
So what does she say that is the victim statement or gives you the sense that she's portraying herself as a victim?
I'm not saying you're wrong. I just want to know what she's saying.
Um, she would, she would, uh,
talk about how, you know, where my brothers become so distant and how
she doesn't understand, like she always reaches out to them and all this stuff and she'll start crying
and, and, like, I, I'm trying to remember exactly.
Okay.
I mean, does she acknowledge that your father said some pretty terrible things and did some pretty terrible things over the course of you and your brother's childhood?
Um, not, not really.
I mean, she would recognize that he wasn't the best, but she wouldn't really recall specific instances.
Well, she claimed not to recall, who knows, right?
Right?
We don't have the window into other people's thought processes.
So, she doesn't think... I mean, obviously, there was room for improvement, she would say, but, you know, she wouldn't get into any specifics.
Is that right?
Yeah.
And what about your mother's parenting?
How was that?
Her mom?
Um, well, her mom died when I was in middle school, so I wasn't around her a lot because I lived so far away.
We would only occasionally meet her, but from what my mom, my mom's stories of her childhood and from what I saw of her mom, she was, um, very controlling and mean.
And like she, my mom, my mom would recall instances of Like when she would talk about how she would come home, like she would have like a favorite pair of shoes or favorite dress and she would come home and it'd be gone, just missing.
And she doesn't know where it would go.
And that would also happen with homework.
She would write a full paper and it'd be due tomorrow and she'd come back home from being with friends and the paper would be gone and she'd have to Turn in nothing the next day.
And, uh, just how her mom would just control her, the portion, her portion sizes.
Why would her mom throw out her homework?
Well, we don't, she doesn't really, she didn't really know at the time where it went.
She just thought it disappeared.
And then she kind of figured out that it was her mom.
Okay, that doesn't explain why her mom would throw out her homework.
I'm not really sure why her mom would throw out her homework either.
Okay, I wasn't sure if your mom had a theory.
Okay.
Now, you know you're manipulating me, right?
I don't know if you know that.
I'm sure you do, right?
No.
Yeah.
I mean, you're really taking me on a ride here.
And I appreciate it.
I don't mind a good ride.
I can do a roller coaster or two.
But do you remember what my question was?
What?
How were my mom's parents?
No!
I said, how was your mom when you were a kid?
Oh.
And you give me the sob story about your grandmother.
Sorry.
No, no, don't apologize.
This is like, you know, I'm saying the speech is kind of halted.
That's because your mom doesn't want this part of the conversation.
Your inner mom, right?
So I'm asking you, How your mother was with you because your father did some pretty bad things, right?
And how was your mother with you?
And the first thing you start is, well, my mother had a very bad childhood.
Yeah.
I don't care.
I don't care.
And the reason I don't care is it's no excuse.
I mean, did I, I had a bad childhood.
Does that give me an excuse to be a bad parent?
Nope.
Completely opposite, right?
Yeah.
Because I know how bad it is to have a bad childhood, so I'm extra responsible to be a good parent, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so I don't care what happened to your mother when she was a child, because I'm not on the phone with her.
I'm on the phone with you.
So what matters to me is what happened to you as a child.
And the fact that you start with your mother's sob story about her childhood is really important, right?
Uh-huh.
So what happened with you and your mom and your brother and your mom as far as you saw when you were a kid?
Um, she was, she was, um, how do I say this?
She was okay to be around by herself, but, um, she would, um, excuse my dad's actions she by like um my dad would get mad because we're making too much noise or um we broke something and she instead of recognizing my my my dad is kind of going too far uh she would
Kind of, uh, wrangle us up and kind of like shush us.
Like, don't do that.
Cause that, uh, dad would be angry.
Like, don't do that.
And then sometimes she would even, uh, she would punish us.
Like we'd be in the back of the car and making too much noise and dad would get angry.
And so she would take, you know, a wooden spoon that she would have in her bag and like smack her hands.
Oh God.
That would shut us up, and then she would then later apologize, saying that she shouldn't have done that.
Sorry, what do you mean, like later that day, or?
Yeah, when Dad wasn't around.
Okay, so she hit you so that your dad wouldn't get angry, and I assume it hurt, right?
I mean, that wooden spoon stuff on the back of a hand can, you know, really hit the knuckles, right?
Yeah.
And then later that day she'd say, I'm sorry, but like, you know how your dad is, that kind of thing?
Yeah.
It was, it's usually like, I'm sorry, but you know, dad, you don't want him to get angry.
Okay.
Well, clearly you didn't mind it too much because you were making the noise, right?
Yeah.
But I mean, he would get angry over very small things.
So we would just be humming along to the music and he'd get angry.
Right.
Now, how often would your father, we'll get back to your mother in a sec, how often would your father lose his temper or be alarming to be around or make you nervous?
It kind of followed a cycle.
So usually, you know, he'd be in a good mood and then That's when you knew he was about to blow up.
And so it was kind of, it was more often he was angry and you just hide, but the occasional good mood pop up.
And that's when you knew the bad was about to, he was about to lose it.
Essentially.
Oh, was it me?
Because like you, you, you damn kids are spoiling my mood.
You're ruining my great day or.
No, it was more just a flip of the switch.
He was just mad.
I think Christopher Hitchens said this about Saddam Hussein, that he was the most dangerous when he was in a good mood.
Like all tyrants, right?
How often, though, would your father be, was it daily, weekly, monthly?
How often would your father be You'd be nervous to be around him or pretend?
I guess when I was younger, I think it was more week by week or occasionally month by month, but especially when I got around 14 to adulthood, it was It seemed almost daily he was angry at something.
Oh, okay.
So I just want to make sure I understand this correctly.
So when you were younger, he might only lose his temper like once a month, like for one day, but the rest of like 29, 30 days of the month, he'd be in a decent mood or a good mood or not be angry.
Do I have that right?
I'm not questioning you, I just want to make sure I understand the parameters.
Yeah, it might have been more like twice a month.
Okay, but still relatively rare compared to what happened in your mid-teens, right?
Yeah, he kind of got worse as time went on.
But you can remember decent, like two weeks at a time where he wouldn't lose his temper, right?
Or I know it's tough to get exact when you're a kid, but something like that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think he was more.
Yeah.
And how often would your mom end up smacking you and your brother in that way?
Um Not super often
It would be.
A few months between.
We typically, um, that's when, when she would kind of smack us like that, it was kind of like a last resort for her.
It seemed as we were just not, we were, we were just not listening to her to stop.
And we kept on pushing it and she just kind of stopped, like, do that to stop us because he was about to, my dad was about to really blow up.
Well, you were just being kids, making noise and having fun.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, I mean, this pushing it stuff or we weren't listening, it's like, I don't know, that's sort of victim blaming, if that makes sense.
Yeah.
We weren't listening, we were pushing.
It's like, no, no, you were just being kids, right?
Yeah.
And how are you feeling talking about this stuff?
It's kind of hard to open up sometimes about certain things, but I'm still a little shaky about certain topics.
And is there anything that I could do to make it easier for you or do we just keep plowing on?
Um...
You just plow on.
All right, plowing away.
Now, did your father use any... your mother would hit you every couple of months, you and your brother, and did your father use any corporal punishment?
Yeah, he would.
Wow.
use the belt and that's when that's usually when we were being
I guess really bad according to his terms like we did something that he
really didn't like that's when he would break out the belt Wow and how often would that happen?
To me it didn't happen very often but to my brother it would happen
How often?
I know roughly.
Um, there was, um, I, there was a period of time where my brother really, he would get it maybe every couple months or every month.
Because my brother was just really angry and he would always try to push things.
So there's still a little victim blaming there, right?
Yeah.
He would... Well, he'd fight back, right?
He was angry at your dad and he was disgusted at being humiliated and he would fight back, if I understand this correctly.
And maybe I don't, but that would be my thought.
Yeah.
That sounds about right, from what I remember.
Were the beatings on clothing or bare skin?
Sometimes it was on our underwear, but sometimes it wasn't.
It was just normal clothes.
I don't remember any bare skin.
Okay, got it, got it.
And so, not very often for you, every month or a couple of months for your brother at times, is that right?
Yeah.
And I assume that your mother knew that your father was hitting you and your brother with belts, right?
Or with a belt?
Uh, yes.
And did she have any thoughts about that, or did she ever try to intervene, or did she get him a book on parenting, or I don't know, like something?
Anger management courses, anything, right?
I don't, from what I remember, I don't think she really did anything.
I think she maybe once or twice tried to calm him down, but it led nowhere, so it still happened.
Most of the time she wouldn't really step in or anything.
Right.
And did your, you don't have to tell me what your father did or does, but Was he able to translate this aggressive side of him into financial success over the course of his working life?
I'm not really sure.
I mean, he was a salesman, so he had to kind of... I mean, did you have a bunch of cars?
Did you live in a really nice house?
I mean, was he successful materially in this way?
Um...
Uh...
I mean, we lived in a pretty big house.
We were just, we weren't like, uh, we didn't spend a lot of money.
He, well, he liked to save money more than anything, but we were, uh, we're living well.
We had a pretty decent sized house and a big backyard and lots of toys and stuff to play with, but nothing really.
He didn't really buy anything extravagant or anything like that.
And did your mother work or stay home?
My mother stayed home.
OK.
And do you know much about your parents dating or courtship?
No, I just know that they met at a hospital because my mom was an x-ray tech and that's where she met my dad.
OK.
I'm not sure what he's doing.
And do you know how long they dated before they got married?
I do not.
Okay.
And was your mother good looking when she was younger?
I'm not saying she isn't now, but you know, in particular when she was younger.
Um, I would think so.
Yes.
And your father, was he handsome?
Uh, yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
From what I've seen.
Do you think, or do you have any indication of whether your mother knew that your father had a temper before she had Kit?
Yes, she did know he had a temper.
How did she know that?
Because of stories about when they were first married and stuff with his siblings, just how his temper would always be lost on them.
And I assume then that she also knew about this to some degree before she got married, right?
Most likely, yeah.
Okay.
So she's a hundred percent responsible for marrying a guy with a violent temper, right?
And giving him, like dating, getting engaged, getting married, giving him kids, keeping the kids around him.
I mean, unless I miss my mark, she's a hundred percent responsible for that, right?
Yeah.
But it seems like you hold, like, when I asked about your father, you're like, well, he said these mean words, he was violent, he, you know, aggressive and, and, you know, distant and, right?
You know, the dad, right?
And then when I ask about your mom, you're like, oh, but her childhood was so terrible.
You know what I mean?
I mean, like, I'm trying to figure out the disparity here.
I mean, let me ask you this.
Why has she divorced him or why is she divorcing him now?
Well, he was the one who, uh, filed for divorce.
Ah, okay.
And why did he do that?
Do you know?
Um, I think, well, um, he claimed that she was cheating on him and stole his money was what he said.
Yeah.
Was what he was talking, like really yelling about around when he filed.
Okay.
And what does your mom say to this?
Um, well, she wasn't cheating and the part where he, she stole his money was her, um, taking some money out of the joint account, just in case he, he, uh, closed her off from it.
Why would she be concerned that he would close her off financially?
I think he was, I don't remember exactly, but I think he was talking about leaving her around, like he would constantly bring up going, like leaving and going away, possible divorce.
And when did he start bringing that stuff up?
Uh Uh, I think it was
Around 2021 is like that year is kind of when everything blew up, but I don't remember
I don't have a lot of memories from then.
Were they like COVID trapped?
And, and I mean, I know a lot of couples, uh, were sort of staring at each other.
It was like, well, we don't have any distractions now.
Um I I think
I'm not really sure what spurred it on Because they were they were already not sleeping in the
same bed for a year And then, well, the whole thing was weird because we moved, they, they bought a house together in 2020 when they were not sleeping in the same bed.
And then he, there was kind of that He was doing that false like everything's gonna be okay We can work things out.
And of course it didn't And it was round thin when he really I guess because he was home all the time Um, oh no, my mom was working during covet now that I remember My dad was working from home and my mom was managing a You mean 8am to 9pm, not just one hour, right?
saving she didn't put the money in the joint account and my dad started getting angry at the fact that she wasn't
cleaning the house and cooking dinner while she worked from eight to nine every day. You mean 8 AM to 9 PM, not just 1
hour, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
And that's when he started really he would get I mean I stayed well I would either go help my mom at the store just
get away from him or stay in my room all day.
And do you know if your mother's store made money?
Um, well, she was, she didn't own the store.
She was just working for the farmer.
Oh, so she'd get paid hourly, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, the marriage, I guess, began to break down.
Has your father ever provided any evidence that she cheated?
No.
Did they, either of them, ever try couples counselling, or workshops, or workbooks, or anything like that?
They've tried many times.
Oh, they tried marital counselling over the course of your childhood?
Yes, several times.
I mean, I know it's tough to remember, you don't know what really happened, but do you have any sense why it didn't take?
My dad would often complain about the counselor and stop going.
That's usually what would... it would just fall apart, because he's like, they don't know what they're doing, and thought that he would just not go anymore.
And did your parents ever tell you or did you get any sense or indication of why they
ended up in separate bedrooms?
I know my mom kind of would tell me why she...
She just... I'm trying to remember exactly what she said.
Oh, it could be approximate.
I don't need super exactitude.
I think she just didn't like sleeping in the same bed like he would.
Well, no, that's kind of tautological, right?
Why are they sleeping in separate beds?
Well, they don't like sleeping in the same bed.
Yeah, I get that.
But why?
I mean, they've been doing it for decades, right?
I don't mean doing it.
I just mean sleeping in the same bed for decades.
She was just kind of, I think she was just kind of sick of him.
Like he would, he would toss and turn.
And I think one time he like punched her in her, his sleep or something was, I remember her talking about, she would just not, she couldn't go to sleep while in the same bed as him.
Cause he would kind of roll on her and kind of shove her off.
And so she started sleeping on the couch.
Oh, the couch?
Yeah.
But you guys had a big house.
Oh, they moved, right?
Yeah, we moved.
What were you sleeping on the couch for?
Don't you have more than one room?
Well, this was, this was, uh, we, that was, um, we, my dad lost his job and then we downsized, we moved to a completely different state and downsized.
That was, so that was later on, that was in my teens, but that's when they started not sleeping in the same bed.
Oh, okay, okay.
And do you know why your dad lost his job?
Was it just like layoffs in general or him in particular?
Yeah, there was a bunch of layoffs and he got nixed.
Okay, got it, got it.
So, your dad filed divorce citing theft and infidelity, right?
And your mom, of course, denies all of this?
Yes.
And do you know if your mom has Tried to figure out if she can do any I'm not saying whether she should or shouldn't but has she tried to figure out if she can do anything to Rescue the marriage or stay or do you think she's kind of like?
Yeah.
Okay, if we're done we're done I Think when he filed she found out that he filed for divorce she was just it was more of like how do I survive and the kids is what it like What do I need to do to survive with the kids was essentially what she was thinking.
And not, I'm not sure what that means.
Well, she, she started looking for a more stable job and what does she need to do?
Like find a, do we need to move out kind of situation?
Like, how does she's not like, if he's not gonna, uh, if he wants to leave the marriage, She's done with it, and how does she survive with us?
Because he's not going to help.
And you and your brother are both adults, right?
Yes.
You're a married woman and a mom.
And so what does that mean to survive with the children?
I'm trying to understand her thinking there, because the kids are already... Are you guys both living at home still?
Yes, uh, my brother, well, there's, there's also, I also have a, another younger brother.
So there's three, there's three of us total.
And I was, yes, I was 18 at the time, but I was still living with my parents and my brother, my two younger brothers were, um, both underaged.
I think he was 16 and the other one was like 14.
So.
Oh, okay.
Okay.
I mean, so your mother had some pretty serious concerns about income, I don't know, alimony, child support, like however that was gonna play out, right?
Yeah.
Okay, got it, got it.
And is the divorce in process?
Or is it, no, it must be done by now, right?
Yeah, it was, they finally, it officially finalized in January of this year.
Wow!
I don't need to know how old you are, but that seems close on half a decade.
Well, it was only a few years, yeah.
And do you know, I mean, I assume you've had some idea as to why it was so contentious, or so certain to say contentious, so lengthy.
Yeah.
Oh, part of the reason was my dad kept on switching lawyers.
They had to be filled in and then the date for some kind of court mediation thing kept on being pushed back because he was complaining.
It was it was a lot of it was him being pushing back the dates
Okay.
Got it.
Got it.
And so.
It seems like you blame your mom less or hold her less accountable for your childhood than your dad, is that right?
Yeah.
And I'm happy to hear the reasoning for that.
For me, all adults are responsible for everything.
There's no, I get to tip things over to the other person, I'm the victim.
That's not a thing when you're an adult.
Yeah.
Because it's just sort of a logical thing, like if being a victim means you don't have any responsibility and can't be held accountable, then children should never be punished.
I mean, because children don't have freedom.
I wouldn't say they're victims by definition, but they certainly don't control their environment, they don't control their parenting, they don't control their education, they don't have any legal or economic independence.
So if being a victim means you're not responsible, Or, if you can claim victimhood, and therefore you're not responsible, then your mother should have never had you guys punished by anyone or anything.
Because she can say, well, I'm not responsible for my environment.
Okay, even if we accept that that's true, it's got to be almost infinitely more true for children, right?
Yeah.
So the fact that she supported And married into and gave children to an aggressive guy, to put it as nicely as possible, means that she did not believe in victimhood.
And you as children, I assume, you and your brothers were held responsible for what you did, right?
As you said, you got hit or punished when you were behaving, you know, quote, badly, and this happened to your younger brother a lot, or a fair amount.
So you as children were held 100% responsible, and your mother agreed with that, right?
Because she married the guy who inflicted that, and she also inflicted it herself, right?
Yeah.
So how do you hold children 100% responsible to the point where you can hit them?
And then claim to be a victim as an adult who had all the choices in the world.
That's why I asked if your mother was pretty, because, you know, an attractive woman, I mean, I'm sure you understand this, right?
Probably better than I am.
I'm sure better than I do, but an attractive woman has all the choice in the world about who she marries, right?
So, how is it that you as children got punished because you were in control of your own behavior, but the woman who punished you and married into the punishment scenario and enabled it and kept you there is a victim?
If you can help me sort that out, I'd appreciate it.
I'm not really sure.
She's just learned how to be like that.
Is from my understanding and she just never recognized that that's a bad way to approach things.
Uh, no, no.
She supported you and your brothers getting punished, right?
Yeah.
So holding people responsible for their actions and punishing them when they do wrong.
She's totally down with that, right?
I mean, that's... She married a punishing guy, right?
And she herself punished you and your brothers.
And sometimes violently, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So, she's fully on board that children are 100% responsible for their behavior, right?
Uh, yeah.
Okay, so, how does she...
How does she... I mean, logically, right?
I understand the strategy, right?
I play the victim and everyone forgives me and blah blah blah, right?
Nobody holds me accountable and it's really Weasley.
Right?
It's one thing to say to children, well, you're not responsible for any of your behavior, so I'm never going to punish you.
And then as an adult, you say, well, I'm not responsible for any of my behavior, so you can't hold me accountable or get mad at me or punish me.
But what's really Weasley is to punish children for their 100% responsibility for their behaviors, and then when your children have questions when they grow up, and they have questions and they say to you, well, you did this, well, you know, but I didn't know, and your father, and blah, blah, blah, I'm a victim, woe is me, right?
The stuff that you were saying to me about your mother and her childhood and so on.
That's totally Weasley.
Hold children 100% responsible.
When children grow up and try and hold you somewhat accountable, you're suddenly the victim who is not responsible.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I mean, are you responsible for what you do as a mother?
Yeah.
I think so, right?
So, how is your mother not responsible?
She would be responsible.
But what would she say if you were to point out that she's 100% responsible
for you and your brothers having an angry father?
She... I guess she would say I'm sorry.
I didn't mean that to happen.
Is...
I usually, uh, I wouldn't really tell her that because I...
I don't...
She would get super emotional and I don't really want to be around her.
her.
When, what do you mean?
So first of all, if she were to say, I'm sorry for, I guess, virtually a quarter century of aggression against you from your father.
Well, first of all, who cares?
Like, there's no point saying I'm sorry after a quarter century, almost, right?
And secondly, were you allowed to say I'm sorry as a kid and therefore not get punished?
No.
No.
So, the I'm sorry is just a ploy, it's a maneuver, right?
There's nothing sincere about it, there's nothing real about it, and there's nothing loving about it, right?
Because your mother is modeling to you Weasley get-out-of-jail-free manipulative behavior.
Uh-huh.
Well, that's not good for you, right?
No.
Because if your mother plays the victim, that's going to infect you, it's going to infect your daughter.
Or try to, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so if you try to hold your mother accountable, she'd get super emotional, and what would that look like?
What would that mean?
Um...
She would...
She would, uh...
start apologizing and saying she didn't really mean it and that, you know, she... she doesn't...
she didn't know better at the time and all that stuff.
And I, usually I, uh, I'm sorry, she didn't know what at the time?
Didn't know or she She didn't know what to do at the time
I usually block her, like stop listening at that point because it felt hollow.
Sorry, what do you mean by hollow?
She it was it was her kind of ignoring her responsibility.
That's what it felt like.
Yeah, so she pretends she didn't know what to do at the time, right?
Yeah.
Right.
But okay, so let me try this.
If you don't mind being your mom for a sec, I just want to make sure I understand the mindset.
So if I'm you and I say, you know, mom, I got some real issues about how we were raised.
And I, you know, I, every time I bring them up, you keep doing this like helpless act.
Right.
And it really bothers me.
So you chose to date, get engaged, to get married to and give children to and keep children around.
A pretty aggressive guy who was sometimes violent and you were sometimes violent.
And now that the divorce is going on, you seem to be full of relief, or like, thank goodness that's over, or put that in the past.
But we didn't have that choice as kids.
Like I guess my question is why didn't you do?
Really anything to protect us or certainly more?
Um I'm not really sure what she would say
Thank you.
Yes, you are.
I'm sure you would have an instinct as to what she would say.
I mean, all that comes to mind is, I'm sorry.
Well, so then I would say, Mom, did I ask you for an apology?
No.
No.
Okay, so why don't you listen to what I'm asking for?
Why didn't you do more or really anything to protect us in fact you hit us too and you let a guy call me a lazy bitch hang around and and you know my brother got hit a lot more than I did like I don't understand why didn't you do something to protect your children why did you marry him in the first place you knew he had an a rage problem
Like, how dare you marry a guy and let him yell at, call names, and hit your children?
And participate in that hitting?
You're not a victim here.
You were a pretty young woman.
You could have dated just and married just about anybody.
Like, I don't understand how our family was what it was.
And that's your choice.
Because as a pretty woman, a young woman, you had a lot of options.
Men will ask anything out with a pulse, and this is the guy you chose.
You chose an angry guy, very angry guy.
You gave him children, and you not only failed to protect those children, but you participated in the violence.
I don't know.
And I'm terrified, I'm scared, right?
Because you make these bad decisions, you don't seem to take any responsibility.
And that's in my system because of you, right?
That's worked its way into my system.
So I need to understand your thinking.
Both in the dating, in the marrying, in the... Like, what the heck was going on that this was my childhood, and the childhood of my brothers?
I think she would say, um, I thought I could fix him.
I've heard her say that before.
So your theory is that you've stabbed?
Yeah.
Okay.
But you needed to be a guy of rage.
Also, you did him, and you couldn't fix him, why get married to him?
If you married him, but couldn't fix him, why give children to him?
If you gave children to him, and couldn't fix him, why date?
I mean, if I've got a car in the driveway, I've been spending 20 years trying to fix this car, does that sound sane?
Uh, no.
So I'd really appreciate it if you kind of dig deep and give me honest answers rather than whatever this is.
I'm going to be honest with you.
I'm not going to be a good lawyer.
So if I understand, she'd just get quiet and cry?
Yeah.
Okay.
I think so.
Right.
So then I would say, so mom, shake it off.
Stop making this about you.
This is about me.
Uh-huh.
Right?
This is not about your tears or your self-pity or your unhappiness.
Focus on me.
Because you want a relationship with me, which you're not getting from my brother.
You want a relationship with me based upon the fact that you're my mother.
Because, you know, I'll be honest, man, I want to be straight with you, right?
Look... If you were just some woman in my neighborhood, or some woman I met at a dinner party...
Or some woman I saw at the gym, or at the mall, or had some conversations with here and there, and I found out, oh yeah, this woman, she has three kids, the kids were aggressed against pretty terribly, and the names were called, and she didn't protect them, and this and that and the other.
Do you think I'd be friends with this person?
No.
Right.
So you're saying, no, no, you have to give me special considerations because I'm your mother, right?
Because if you were just some person, I mean, we probably wouldn't be friends, right?
In fact, I'm certain we wouldn't, right?
Okay.
So you have a relationship with me, or you want a relationship with me.
Because you're my mother.
It's a magical golden sticker that affixes to you so that I have to spend time with you, right?
Uh-huh.
Now, I would say that one of the mother's primary jobs, would you agree, is to protect her children.
Yes.
Okay.
Did you succeed at that job or not so much?
No.
Okay.
So you have to talk to me about this, because otherwise, if you won't acknowledge that you failed in your primary duty as a mother, then you don't get the golden sticker called mother anymore, and I judge you as just another person.
Which is, I think, kind of what my brother's doing, to be honest.
I think she's saying, okay, I mean, he's probably not saying consciously, but at some level he's saying, okay, so My mother wants special considerations as a mother, but won't fulfill, or hasn't fulfilled the basic duties of motherhood, right?
I mean, to take an extreme example, right?
If some woman abandons her child when the child is three days old, and then lives a whole life apart from her child, and then when the mother, the biological mother, gets old, she contacts The child she abandoned at the age of three days and says, you have to take me in and you have to take care of me because I have dementia.
Uh-huh.
Would that be something that you think the child should do?
No.
But why not?
Because she never raised the child.
She abandoned them.
She did not fulfill the duties of motherhood, right?
I know that you were there, I know that you were home, I know that you care about my brothers and I, so I'm just saying, add an extreme example, that biological mother would not get the gold star called motherhood that guarantees a relationship, right?
Yes.
Now, you knew that we were unhappy.
You knew that I was scared of dad, especially from the age of 14 or onwards.
You knew that we weren't getting along.
You knew that my dad had this distance thing and he'd get really angry if he was in a good mood and it was scary.
Like, you knew all of this, right?
Yeah.
And what did you do?
Ignored it.
Right.
Thus failing to protect your children.
Yes.
Right.
Why?
I mean, you want me to love you, right?
As a mother.
But a mother also has to love her child.
Has to love her children.
And one of the ways, one of the main ways that a mother shows her love for her children, and a father too, but we're talking to you, not dad, right?
So one of the main ways that a mother shows love for her children is to protect them.
I mean, you have a granddaughter now.
If your husband, if my father, somehow was in contact with babysitting my granddaughter,
like your granddaughter, my child, my daughter, and was calling her a lazy goddamn bitch.
Would you do anything about it?
Or if if dad was babysitting my daughter and
And my daughter was making too much noise for his majesty's comfort.
Would you also hit my daughter with a wooden spoon to keep her quiet and not anger dad?
Because I would never accept my father doing that to my daughter.
You understand?
I would never allow that to happen.
In fact, that's one of the reasons I'm not talking to him.
I will not allow that to happen.
Uh-huh.
Would you?
Would you let your ex-husband call my daughter a lazy bitch?
No.
Oh, what about if he wanted to hit her with a belt?
Would you be like, yep, sounds good to me.
I'll hold her down.
No.
Why not?
Why is my daughter so much more important than I am?
Why is my daughter worthy of protection, but your daughter wasn't?
Isn't it, Mom?"
Why is my daughter worthy of protection?
And you wouldn't lift a finger to protect your own children.
you Make it make sense.
Make it make sense!
I'm happy to hear it.
It doesn't make sense.
Okay, so...
So, you would protect my daughter, but not me.
You didn't protect me.
And now I have no need of protection.
You understand?
I have no need of protection.
Right?
Yeah.
So what binds us?
What binds us?
Shared history?
I mean, we could have, we could have had that if we were in a jail cell together, which I guess we kind of were in a way, except you chose it.
So what?
What bonds us?
Is it virtue?
Is it the fact that we are similar in our parenting styles?
Nope!
Is it that I respect you for your moral courage and integrity?
Nope!
Because it's not so much that you did bad things, mom.
We've all done bad things, right?
It's not so much that you did bad things.
It's that you won't take a shred of responsibility now.
You just cry and self-pity and weasel and make excuses.
This is the part that's really turning my stomach.
Because we're not talking about what happened when I was 5 or 10 or 15.
We're talking about what's happening right now in the moment as we speak.
Because if you don't take responsibility for this, it harms me.
Yes.
I was explaining my childhood to someone the other day, and I said, well, we pushed the envelope, we went too far, we were, quote, bad, we provoked, you know, and I'm like, I get it.
I still blame it on myself.
Why was I hit as a child?
Was that my fault?
Nope.
Was it Dad's fault?
Yep.
Was it your fault?
Yes!
Yes, it was.
Let's say that Dad was out of control of his temper.
Right?
Okay.
So what?
We go to some petting zoo and there's some pig that keeps chewing on my leg and you're like, well, the pig's not in control of its behavior.
I'm not going to bother doing anything.
Let's say the dad has no functional control of his temper.
Well, you chose to marry him, chose to give him children, chose to keep that children around him.
What am I supposed to respect in this?
And you, mom!
You're like, well, dad rolled over and hit me in the sleep.
So I'm moving to another bedroom.
So you got hit once by accident.
I got hit dozens of times on purpose.
And you're like, it's unacceptable to be in the same room as your father and to sleep in the same room as your father.
If he rolls over and hits me by accident, even once.
My brothers and I got hit dozens of times.
On purpose.
Not just by Father, but by you.
So you see how precious this is?
Oh no!
I got hit!
This is terrible!
I'm moving to another wing of the house!
We didn't have that choice.
And you were hit by accident, we were hit on purpose.
Yeah.
So you're just gonna let me do all the talking?
Is that your plan?
Just until I tire out and then you're going to pretend that I never said anything?
I get it.
I think that's your plan.
Is that your plan?
Yeah.
Okay.
Click.
I just hang up on it there.
Cause I don't, uh, I don't, I don't speak NPC.
Yeah.
So she'd just go rubber bones, right?
Yeah.
Cause she would.
Yeah, okay, well that's fine.
Then she's actively burdening you.
Yes.
She's not lifting you up.
She didn't say, it never was your fault, it was 100% me.
Or even, it was 90% me, right?
So she won't lift that burden off you.
So she's still failing to protect you even now.
See, it's not about the past.
None of this stuff is really about the past.
The question is, have any lessons been learned?
Not sure.
doesn't seem to be she's on the receiving end of your father's temper
and has been for the past four years or so that the divorce has been going on
He's been kind of raging at her, right?
Yeah.
And she finds this unbearable!
Yep.
He's very sensitive, you see.
As to how your father's temper affects her, her kids, well... He makes good money.
It's a nice house.
Yeah.
you I mean, I'll tell you this, and this sounds harsh.
It could be unfair, but this is the way I view it in my gut, which doesn't mean I'm right.
Uh-huh.
If your mother...
Took money from neighbors because they enjoyed the sight of their dogs biting you?
That would be pretty horrible, right?
Yeah.
Hey, I'll give you 50 bucks.
I just want to see my pitbull chew on your kid's legs for a few seconds.
But how is that different from taking money from a man and a nice house and all he has to do is maul the kids from time to time?
Not that different.
If they, you know, if she entered in you into fight club for kids to make money, that would be pretty repulsive, right?
Yeah.
But taking money from a man and in a sense in exchange, because if she'd said to your father, you cannot touch these kids and you certainly cannot call them names.
That's absolutely unacceptable.
You do that one more time.
I'm leaving you.
Right?
That might have actually helped.
It might have.
Because as you said, when your father was younger, I was really struck by this, right?
Sorry, I don't mean to say struck by things about your father.
But when your father was younger, he was less angry.
That's volatile, right?
Less enraged?
Yeah.
Okay.
So he might have gone to anger management.
He might have taken some therapy.
He might have, like when he was younger, right?
A little bit, yeah.
Well, I mean, he got, as far as I understand it, five to ten times more angry in terms of, it went from once a month to sometimes daily, right?
Yeah.
So that could be five, ten, up to thirty times more angry, right?
Yeah.
If you want to stop an addiction, it's a lot easier to start it, to stop it early, right?
Yes.
And so if your father has an addictive problem with anger, then if your mother had took a stand when you were younger, or if you had said to him, listen, you're a great guy, tall, handsome, whatever, but I can't marry you because of your temper.
Like you have to deal with your temper.
Right?
Yeah.
What would have happened?
Um, probably would have been not been married.
Maybe or maybe your father would have been like, oh gosh, I really, I really love this woman.
I'm going to have to go and deal with my temper.
Yeah.
but she didn't and the reason she would have done that of course is
obviously she was attracted to your father
But she would have said that because she's like, listen, I can choose to marry a guy with rage problems, but I absolutely cannot bring children into that environment because they don't have a choice.
I don't know, maybe they have, I hate to sort of be, maybe they have great makeup sex, maybe she's really turned on by rage, I don't know, whatever weird stuff goes on in people's brains and loins.
But you can't choose that for your children.
Maybe some people find it very sexually exciting to get beaten with a whip,
but you can't choose that for your children.
No.
So she would say, listen, I can't get married to you because I care about kids.
I want my kids to be happy and my kids will be too terrorized by your temper.
So you're going to have to go deal with this if you want to marry me.
Yeah.
Now I feel like you've gone kind of rubber bones on me.
I'm not saying you have, I'm just saying that's my experience.
Because it's your life. I don't want to do all the talking but tell me so tell me let me sort of check in here
Tell me what you're thinking and feeling
I guess I didn't fully realize how much
Like how much my mom screwed up Mom screwed up.
.
Well, if it's any consolation, we really do.
Yeah.
I mean this, I've said this before.
You've, you've probably heard it.
Like there's always one parent who gets away, right?
Yeah.
Why did your brother cut contact with her?
I don't know.
I don't know.
you you
Because she never took responsibility for herself through the marriage.
and allowed us, and allowed my dad to punish us and rag on us without stopping it.
yet.
And you, and the reason I'm asking all of this, in fact the whole hour 20 that we've been talking, the reason for this is because, as far as I understand it, you very desperately need to have credibility with your brother, right?
Yes.
Because your brother's marrying the wrong girl, right?
Yes.
Right.
So all of this Is me working feverishly to try and give you credibility with your brother?
Yes.
So why don't you have credibility with your brother?
I guess because we don't... we don't really talk about what happened.
Right?
Why doesn't he talk about what happened?
Cause we weren't really, we weren't really allowed to.
Nope.
Nope.
You're adults.
You can do it now, right?
Why doesn't your brother talk about you?
I mean, he's talked about it with your mother, right?
No.
So he just cut off your mother.
Yes.
Without talking to her.
And without even establishing whether she was going to take any responsibility at all?
That seems... I mean, could be, but it seems unlikely.
Well, he... I mean, he still talks to her, like, he'll have dinner with her and stuff, but he won't...
Oh, I'm so sorry.
I misunderstood.
I thought that you'd broken with your father and he'd broken with your mother.
I'm sure that was my misunderstanding.
So I'm sorry for that.
Okay.
So he hasn't talked to your mother and he hasn't cut off contact with your mother?
No, he just, he still occasionally talk.
I'll get it.
So then your mother doesn't know that there's, oh no, but your mother says that there's a problem, right?
Yes, but he's, he's grown a lot more distant, but he's still, We'll still, I guess, say hi or have dinner, but won't talk about anything in depth.
Now, have you and your brother talked much about your childhood?
No.
Why not?
I'm not accusing, I made that sound, why not?
I don't mean that in an accusatory way. I'm just i'm curious
Um Uh, it just
Most of the time it It never occurred to me to ask like how he feels
about it And we don't really we don't connect on that
We don't connect super emotionally.
We just okay, but why not?
I mean I know.
Why don't you talk about your childhood?
It's an emotional topic.
We don't connect emotionally, but why not?
Uh, I've been scared.
I'm scared to do it.
Okay.
So that's, listen, I appreciate that.
That's very, that's very blunt.
It's very frank.
And that's true, right?
You're scared to do it.
And I appreciate that.
And I sympathize with that.
So, uh, you know, my next annoying question, right?
Why are you scared to do it?
I mean, how do you know that your brother's criticism is of your mother, that she doesn't take responsibility?
Has he said that to you, or?
No.
Well, how do you know?
I don't really know.
I'm just kind of assuming.
Oh, okay.
So that's an assumption.
Okay.
Got it.
Kind of important to know.
Okay.
So has your brother talked to you about you not talking to your father?
No.
Well... Does he know?
Yeah, he does know.
And so you said, I'm not talking to dad?
Yes.
Okay.
And what did he say?
Well, at the time I was pregnant, so he said, you should probably tell, like, you don't have to tell my dad, but you should probably tell Okay.
you're pregnant and that's all he said.
Okay, right.
So, your brother is still in contact with your father, right?
I know we're talking about one of your brothers like he doesn't exist, but I think we just have to go with one, right?
Yeah, he's still... Okay, so he's still in contact with your dad and has no particular issues that you know of with your childhood?
Like, he's not said to you, childhood was bad because of X, Y, and Z. Like, you haven't talked about your childhood, is that right?
No, we don't.
We haven't.
Okay, so how on earth are you going to expect to have any credibility with your brother?
That's what I'm trying to figure out.
Well, have we come to some kind of answer?
I guess we should start, we should talk about it.
Well, you've broken off contact with your father, which is a very big deal, and your brother has said nothing about it.
Which means that your communication lines are closed to anything except the most inconsequential nonsense, if I understand this correctly.
Yeah.
News, weather, updates, gossip, whatever, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So why would you have any influence on your brother when as the older sister you have a significant influence and certainly when you were younger your actions defined the relationship, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
So why won't you talk to your brother?
You say, scared, I get that, but scared of what?
And I'm not saying your fears are unjustified or unreal, I'm just curious, like, what are you scared of?
I'm scared that he will, uh, close, close me off.
No.
You already closed off.
Try again.
I'm scared that he will... ...ignore me.
He's already ignoring you?
Try again.
Like, you already closed off and ignoring each other's experience, right?
Yeah.
I mean, say, why don't you try turning on that tap?
Well, I'm afraid I won't get any water.
Well, you're already not getting any water, so... Gotta be something else.
Can I ask it another way?
Yeah.
All right.
Who in your family has the most to risk if you and your brother get close and talk about your childhoods?
Whose interests are going to be the least served if that happens?
My parents.
Yes, that's correct.
That is, you win the prize.
Yes, that's correct.
So what happens if you and your brother get together?
And talk about your childhoods Uh
We see that our parents, uh Both did terrible things to us
Okay, and that means that you're probably going to go have conversations with your parents, right?
Yeah.
Now, do your parents want you To have those conversations with them?
No.
Right.
Right.
Because then you'll see, if it does happen, as happened with your mother in the roleplay, you'll see this kind of weaselliness and avoidance of responsibility and manipulation and selfishness.
Yes.
I mean, imagine this, just to picture, because I'm not sure if I've made this point clear and that my deficiency, not yours, right?
So imagine I lose my daughter's tablet, which she draws on and so on and cares a lot about the tablet, right?
I lose my daughter's tablet, but then I convince her that she lost it and call her careless and lazy besides.
That would be pretty terrible, right?
Yes.
Right.
I would be blaming my daughter for something I lost.
Yes.
Now whether I lose her tablet or my temper, does it matter?
If I lose my temper and I blame her for my loss of temper, that's even worse than blaming her for the tablet, right?
At least the tablet's just a physical thing.
She's probably got a backup and can be, you know what I mean?
Yeah.
So if I blame my daughter when I know that I've lost the tablet, I am continuing to burden
her particularly if I make it a moral thing, oh you never take care of your things, you're
just so careless, I've told you once, I've told you a thousand, whatever, right?
If I make the loss of that tablet a defining element of her fundamental flaws as a human being, when I lost it, That would be about as terrible a thing as you could do, right?
Yes.
Do you know what a burden it would be?
Off her shoulders.
If I were to confess at some point, I'm so sorry.
I went kinda crazy there.
It's absolutely wrong.
I lost your tablet.
You didn't lose it.
You're not careless.
You do take care of your things.
It's my fault completely.
Do you get a sense of what would be lifted off her shoulders?
Yes.
Now, she'd be mad at me, and she should be, because that'd be a terrible thing to do.
But, if I care about my daughter at all, I will tell her the truth.
Yeah.
That I lost her tablet, not her.
Yeah.
So if your mother, every, literally, this is like an hourglass in my brain.
Every single minute that your mother is awake, that she doesn't pick up the phone and say, that was on me, not you.
She's having you struggle under this burden that she put on you.
Yeah.
No, you're not there.
It's not a yeah thing.
This is a more of a thunderclap.
Yeah.
Right?
Yes.
She's having you carry the burden of the violence and dysfunction that was done to you as a child, rather than taking ownership of it herself.
She would rather her children carry the burden than she accept responsibility.
She'd rather hurt you than take ownership.
And continue to do so.
And your father also, let's not let him off the hook, right?
Every single moment of every single waking day that your father is not picking up the phone and saying, you know what?
I have a real problem with my temper.
I can really see this over the course of this divorce.
I was wrong.
And I called you names.
I lost my temper.
You weren't bad.
You weren't wrong.
That's a hundred percent me.
I regret it more than I can possibly express.
What can I do to make it better?
I'm going to, I'm going to go to anger management.
You never have to talk to me again.
I'm going to go there.
I'd love it if we could, I'm going to pay for you to do some therapy.
I'm going to whatever.
Right.
That would be to lift a burden, right?
Yes.
My father died.
Never telling me that my father.
took this absolution to me to the grave with him.
My father at any time... I mean the guy was retired for 20 years.
He could have at any time phoned me up and said the mess that was on your childhood was entirely upon me and your mother.
You were responsible for none of it.
You were an innocent victim.
I'm so sorry.
But he wouldn't do that.
you He would rather me carry the burden than him accept responsibility.
Yeah.
And it seems to me that that's what your parents are doing as well.
Yes.
And that's going to have an effect on your relationship with your daughter.
Yeah.
Because we can't live two opposite ways, right?
If I say, go north and south at the same time, you'd say, I can't!
Right?
If I say, you as a parent are 100% responsible for your actions, but your parents are not, that's asking you to go north and south at the same time.
It tears you in two.
well, more than two, but...
but if you want to help your brother, and I'm moved beyond words that you do, and I
think it's wonderful that you do, If you want to help your brother, you don't want to be like the parents of those teenage kids, right?
Who barely talk to their kids and just snap at them to clean up the room and take out the garbage and do the dishes and do your homework and this, that and the other.
And then the parents like, gee, we haven't talked in a while.
They sit down and say, okay, let's talk.
Yeah.
I mean, I went for a nice long brunch with my daughter today because it's really, really important to stay in communication.
Yeah.
But you don't just try and jam communication in at the end without credibility ahead of time.
Like if your doctor says, Hey, she's been a great doctor for like 20 years.
Your health is great.
She's always helped you avoid illness.
And she says, Ooh, you know, I've got your blood work.
You should do this or that or the other.
You'll be like, okay.
Right.
Yep.
Right.
You've had a great dentist.
They say you need to floss the back, but I still have my wisdom teeth.
So I still got to floss the back like crazy, right?
I'm like one of a thousand adults who still has their wisdom teeth.
So my, my dentist says floss in the back more.
I'm like, you bet.
Get a water pick, uh, get a, like a, uh, a water sprayer.
And yes, I absolutely right.
Cause it's a good dentist.
Right.
Yep.
But if some guy on the street stops me and says, you're eating too many oranges.
I'm like, okay, crazy person back away slowly, please.
So if you want your brother to listen to you, you have to have credibility, and you can't have credibility by serving your parents and avoiding conversations with your brother.
To appease your mother, fundamentally, because I don't think you care that much about appeasing your father anymore because you're not in contact with him.
But your mother doesn't want you, like, you're afraid of talking to your brother because your mother's afraid of you talking to your brother and you don't want to displease your mother for reasons of, you know, we all have that, I don't want to anger my parents too much because they might abandon me and I'm gonna die, right?
That's our evolution, right?
But your brother, I guarantee you, I can't guarantee you, sorry, I'd like to guarantee you that your brother Deep down, he instinctively knows that you're aligned with your mother at his expense.
Because you, being in possession of the truth about your family, are now responsible.
Now responsible, right?
This is why whoever increases in knowledge increases in sorrow, because you have a responsibility to lift the burden from your brother, right?
Yeah.
Because you know the truth about your childhood.
At least the painful part.
So you now have an obligation.
And your brother, deep down, he knows you're going through this process.
You've split with your father.
He knows that.
You've become a mother yourself.
I'm sure there have been hints and bits and barbs dropped around here and there.
So he knows you're going through a personal re-evaluation and an evaluation of your parents and you're coming to some moral conclusions.
So are you helping him with all of your knowledge?
No.
No?
Why not?
Because it would upset your mother and your father.
Yeah.
So he doesn't want to listen to you, because you're still sacrificing him to appease your parents.
And I bet you it's not the first time that's happened.
No, it's not.
So you want him to listen to you, you've got to show the value of your courage, because you want him to do something courageous, not marry the wrong girl.
You've got to model courageousness, right?
If you want to be a personal trainer you can't be 300 pounds.
And he's not going to believe you care about him if he knows you've been on this personal journey to
understand the past and you haven't shared any benefit
with him that I know of.
you you
Don't withhold from those you care about the benefits of the wisdom you've accumulated, in my humble opinion.
Yeah.
You do that, I'd be probably...
Okay.
You You
you Is that a approach that you think might help?
I think so.
Yeah. Got a towel on?
All right.
Because then the power of self-knowledge will become evident to him, and the fact that you would be aligned with him, and not your parents, would give you credibility, I think.
Yes.
That would work.
Really? So what do you think? Um.
Thank you.
I should I should Talk to him about how both our parents Like did horrible things and how I'm not aligned with either of them and I'm here for him and him only and don't want him to go down a bad path and end up trapped, essentially.
I think so.
So Hannah, how are you feeling?
Better.
Better.
you you
Good.
Yeah, because it is very... I mean, you obviously care for your brother enormously, to your great credit, and I definitely want him to be able to... for you to have your say and have him listen.
Yeah.
Is there anything else you wanted to talk about?
I don't want to, you know, take up your day.
I know you're apparently good at all of that, but is there anything else that...
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
I don't think so.
Okay.
Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
I really do appreciate your time today.
Yeah, I'll keep you updated.
Yeah, of course, if your brother wants to talk, I'm happy to help if I can.
So, if that's something that would be of value to him, you can just let me know.
Yeah.
All right.
Well, listen, thanks, Emil, for the talk, and do keep me posted, and have a great rest of your day.
Yeah, you too.
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