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April 11, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

03:27:01

My Girlfriend is a Born Again Virgin!

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	All right, so yes, I'm here to help.
	Lay it on me, brother.
	How can I best serve you?
	Well, I guess you got a little bit of my email there about, I guess I titled it, Navigating the Epiphany Phase.
	Are you familiar of what I'm getting at with that term.
	I do, yeah, but I mean, it's always the thing, like, I know what it means to me, but what matters is what it means to you.
	So, I'm all ears.
	You want to read the email or just tell me what's going on?
	I'll just give a recap.
	Basically, I've been in a committed five-year relationship with a woman, and she's now 29 years old, and We haven't done things the right way under the eyes of the church, her family, and aspects of my family too.
	We have a lot of flaws There's a lot of volatility
	but We're trying to work through them and we have we've made a
	lot of a lot of progress it's
	But she's reached a point in her life and I think Many women in their life when they get to be this age, you
	know, the clock's ticking um
	They're looking back at the last, you know, 10, 12 years of their life and think, wow, like, I really messed up.
	And then how do I fix this?
	And if you only have a toolkit, That has so many tools in it.
	You revert to those, and you try to fix the problem with those tools, but I just don't think it can be enough sometimes, and she has reverted back to using her old toolbox, and it's really put a strain This is all happening literally this week, and it's really starting to put a strain on things.
	but as as you know, I mean these issues are usually deeply intertwined into other deeper things.
	That's very abstract and listen I appreciate and I sympathize with what you're going through.
	I don't know what her old two blocks means.
	Just being committed to an ideology, like, you know, through... I think you're aware of how Catholics do things.
	They have a set a very strict set of rules that are to be adhered to.
	And it's an ideology that which you commit to and I think it's fairly black and white.
	And they just seem to revert to those things and they aren't very open to learning new things or trying to figure things out outside the purview of the church.
	Sorry, I'm a little confused.
	Are you guys married?
	No.
	No.
	Sorry, I'm not sure then how the... Are you living together?
	No, we aren't living together either.
	We're just... Okay, but I assume you've had, you know, to be blunt, you've had sexual relations before marriage and all that, right?
	Yes, and that's what I meant, where we've done everything wrong under the actual guidelines of the Church, but now she's committed to, you know, doing things The right way after this amount of time.
	Okay.
	Gosh, you know, I thought by two bucks you meant, I don't know, she's back on drugs or something.
	Okay.
	That, that, um, substances are a component of it and she knows it's a problem.
	Uh, you mean she, is she a drinker or?
	Yeah.
	And you know, marijuana once in a while, she's, she's been off of that for six months, but it's a, it's a constant struggle.
	Okay, and what do you want... I mean, I guess there's two questions.
	What do you want out of the relationship or your life, and what do you want out of this conversation that would be the most helpful to you?
	Out of her?
	Ultimately, I do want marriage, I believe.
	She is a good one.
	Ultimately, I do want marriage, I believe.
	Dude, it's been five years!
	No, that's a very good point.
	Like, when you're 300?
	I don't understand what you mean, ultimately.
	You've test-driven the car for five years, and you're like, I might want this car!
	No, I'm just, I'm trying to navigate everything, and yes, it's been a long time.
	Too long.
	But it's just... But the question is, I mean, I guess the question is, why has it been so long?
	And again, when I ask these questions, I'm not coming from any critical place, like, you should have, and blah, blah, blah.
	I'm just, I'm genuinely curious.
	I mean, and listen, I've been, I was in a relationship that I was uncommitted to, and I know this sounds ridiculously competitive.
	It was even longer than five years.
	So I'm not coming from any position of superiority here, but I guess I'm just genuinely curious what, why, You haven't?
	Why haven't you gotten married?
	I mean, are you Catholic?
	No.
	No.
	Are you religious?
	I would consider myself agnostic.
	I have issues with Structured religion.
	I know, because you refer to Catholicism as an ideology, which is not an accurate term.
	I mean, it's a theology, but okay, so tell me a little bit about, if you can, about the history of the relationship, where you met, how you fell in love, or what happened early on that had you commit, you know, half a decade of your life so far.
	I met her At a friend's birthday party.
	We instantly hit it off.
	I'm not usually one to cold approach a woman in a social setting, but there was just something about her that compelled me to do that.
	And what was that something?
	How pretty is she?
	She's very pretty.
	And does she have a nice figure?
	She does.
	Yep.
	Okay.
	So on a one to 10, what are we talking here?
	Oh, say high sevens, maybe a bit higher.
	Oh, okay.
	So not super pretty.
	I think she is.
	No, no, but I mean, it has to be for you.
	I'm not talking about a modeling agency, right?
	To me, she'd be.
	Yeah, I always have issues with the numbering scale because it's hard to define the metrics for it, but... No, but it's a gut feel, right?
	Yeah, at least an 8 or plus to me, it's... Okay, so high 8.
	And where would you rate yourself in the general metric of these things?
	Oh... Yeah, that... I'm told that I have a...
	A lower opinion of myself when it comes to that than what's real?
	Maybe.
	Well, that's interesting because I ask you for your opinion and you immediately give me other people's opinion of your opinion.
	What do you rate yourself?
	Seven-ish, maybe a bit higher.
	Okay, okay.
	So, I mean, you're not totally dissimilar as far as physical appeal goes, right?
	No, I think pretty close.
	Okay.
	So, you were drawn to her.
	I mean, I'm sure she has a, you know, a spirit to her and all of that kind of stuff, but primarily, primarily, it was visual, if I understand this correctly.
	I mean, I'm not saying that's all it is, but, you know, when you say, I was drawn to her, there was chemistry, there was a spark, it's like, yeah, I get it, we have hormones, and we're looking for a particular shape, and every person's shape can be a little different.
	But... you were drawn to her...
	for looks, primarily, at the beginning.
	Which, again, I have no problem with that, for whatever that's worth.
	You know, men are visual creatures, and we're drawn to things which, you know, are indicators of good genetic fitness, and there's all that kind of good stuff which you as an agnostic would be familiar with.
	So, the initial draw, though, was physical.
	Is that fair?
	And if it's unfair, I'm certainly happy to reject that.
	No, that's fair.
	Okay.
	And was she drawn to you in the same way, or to the same degree, or was it more of a pursue situation?
	No, I think she was.
	Would she have approached me if I didn't approach her?
	I doubt it, but I mean... Yeah, but it was mutual, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So, how fast did things move in the beginning?
	Extremely.
	She told me she loved me within the first three weeks.
	And how quickly did you guys jump into bed?
	Right away.
	Again, like I said, we've done things the wrong way from the start.
	I know that.
	Well, again, I'm not criticizing.
	I'm just trying to map the origin story, so to speak, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	And so you moved very, very fast.
	And what happened then?
	We just began spending more time together as we could.
	Getting to know each other.
	Long, long talks about Everything, just our childhood, what the dynamics of our family are like now, what issues we have with certain things, where we stand politically.
	But sorry, when did you find out that she was Catholic?
	Probably the first, yeah, it'd be in the first week.
	Was it before or after you slept together?
	Did that give you any pause?
	That she was claiming to be Catholic, but not practicing even, like, doing the complete opposite of the moral beliefs that she claimed to hold?
	Yeah, no, that was... It was a thought in the back of my mind.
	I wasn't, at the time, I wasn't educated completely in Catholicism, I knew... Oh, come on!
	I mean, sorry, like, everybody knows that Catholic girls are supposed to wait till marriage, or, you know, I mean, that's not, this is not like you don't have to know St.
	Augustine for that one, right?
	It's, it's just usually when... How do I put this, folks?
	Sounding crass, but more often than not...
	It seems like when people say they hold such ideologies, it's often not the case.
	No, no, I get that.
	I mean, I'm not saying that every Catholic girl waits until marriage.
	But usually, there's a recognition of a deviation.
	Did she say, I am sinning, you know, I'm weak, or like, you know, I mean, Catholicism accepts that people sin, or how did she reconcile?
	Like, did she say, gee, I'm a Catholic, I'm not acting very Catholic-y at the moment, and that's, you know, something I'm working on, or was it just like, well, yeah, I'm a Catholic, and there's no reference to what she's done?
	No, later on, No, no, when she told you.
	Like, was there any sense of, like, I'm not... I'm not fulfilling my obligations, which is understandable.
	Like, like, you know, when she told you, I'm a Catholic, I'm not really supposed to be doing this, but boy, you're just so attractive.
	Oh, I don't know what, but was there chafing between her moral beliefs and her actions?
	I was trying to remember to the start.
	I think at the very beginning it was swept under the rug maybe a bit too.
	She didn't want to end things and maybe held on to that a little bit longer than she would've.
	All right, so we're in vagueland here, right?
	Now, okay, so if you don't remember at the beginning, has she sort of mentioned or talked about since that she did not What's her relationship been with her Catholicism and your lifestyle since?
	I mean, now she's getting all kinds of, I'm a sinner and I've got to follow the ways of God and Jesus.
	And I don't mean that in a disrespectful manner.
	I mean, that sounds like where she's at.
	What's her relationship been like to Catholicism over the five years of you guys, you know, what would be sinning, right?
	And again, I'm not saying, like, sin is part of the redemption arc, so it's not like the end of the world, but what's her relationship been like to that?
	Great.
	I would say kind of at best.
	She goes to church every Sunday.
	Oh, she does?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	But she hasn't taken the sacraments.
	Does she go to confession?
	She hasn't.
	Okay.
	Until last week.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Now, I mean, I don't know if you know why.
	Do you know why the idea of waiting till marriage evolved?
	Yes.
	What's that for you?
	It's ultimately to Ensure that a woman can pair bond and to stop promiscuity before it happens, in part.
	Yeah, I mean, I think those are factors also to make sure, prior to birth control, that the man wasn't going to raise a son other than his own or a daughter other than his own.
	But most importantly, I think, it's to ensure that people like each other outside of the bedroom.
	People like each other outside of lust, that they admire and respect each other outside of just lust.
	Because, I mean, to some degree it sounds like, and I don't want to sum it up too minimalistically, but it sounds like you tried to build a relationship on sexual attraction.
	It's definitely a component.
	I wouldn't say it was the main one, but it was definitely... Oh no, the building?
	That was the main one.
	Yeah.
	No, for sure.
	For sure, and as far as the building, so for instance, if she had exactly the same personality, but was a man, or had exactly the same personality, but was an elderly woman, or had exactly the same personality, but was happily married, you would not have pursued a friendship, right?
	That's true.
	So it was founded on sexuality, and again, not saying the end of the world, but Because I assume that for you, integrity has some kind of value, right?
	Like, if somebody says, I believe a certain thing, that they either pursue that thing, or at the very least, they notice that they're not doing it.
	Does that make sense?
	You know, like if I say, well, I think honesty is a value and a virtue, and you see me lying all over the place and not even being troubled by it, wouldn't that trouble you?
	Yeah, it's a red flag for sure.
	Right.
	So the fact is that she holds these moral beliefs, goes to church, and not only fails them, but doesn't even seem to notice that she's failing them, right?
	Oh, she notices.
	It's become a major point of contention.
	No, no, no.
	Now, yes, five years later, when she's hit the wall, is hitting the wall, but that's not the thing, right?
	The whole point of morality is you don't wait until it's a disaster.
	You don't wait until you panic, right?
	The whole point of morality is so you don't panic, or you sort of do things ahead of time, right?
	You don't wait till you're having a heart attack to jump on the treadmill, right?
	So, in terms of in the past.
	Now, why do you think she jumped into bed and jumped into the I Loves You's so quickly?
	I think it's because what she saw in In me.
	The potential for a future.
	Just going off what she said.
	Okay, but that's not true.
	I mean, sorry to be so blunt.
	Because if you see a future for someone, then you don't have to rush, right?
	If you see a future with someone, then you would take it slow, right?
	I mean, if you're going to build a house that you're going to live in,
	you're going to build it slowly and carefully, right?
	You're not just going to throw together some bunch of nonsense that's going to fall down in a couple of years, right?
	So it's not that she necessarily saw a future.
	I mean, obviously she liked you and she desired you and she appreciated you.
	And I'm not saying that it was only physical, right?
	So, I mean, there's elements of each other's personalities that you find appealing or attractive.
	But why did she jump into bed right away and start saying, I love you and all of that within a couple of weeks?
	Low impulse control.
	I'm sorry?
	Oh, low impulse control?
	Yeah, but, I mean, maybe, maybe, but the question is why did the impulses go that way?
	Like, low impulse control could be also she just eats all the time or sleeps around or something like that, right?
	So, why did she, like, what happens in the man's brain when he gets love-bombed?
	Because that's what happened, right?
	He starts focusing myopically on what's in front of him.
	Yeah, it's a way of making sure that the man is going to bond, but not with the personality.
	He's going to bond with the dopamines of sexual access and professions of love.
	So she's trying to make herself into an addictive substance.
	With the love bomb early in the... I mean, I don't want to put her in the same category, but cults do the same thing, right?
	They just... You're the greatest, and we love you, and we've been waiting for you our whole lives, and finally you found your home, your family, and they just bathe people in dopamine to the point where when they're apart, they feel terrible, and they become an addictive substance, and then they start exploiting, right?
	I'm glad that you mentioned that, because that's part of Why I wrote to you was, I truly believe, and it'd be like, of course it is, I'm addicted to her, and now the drug has been shut off, and to go cold turkey on these things isn't usually conducive to one's health.
	Well, I mean, I think addiction might be the right phrase because addicts both need and fear their addiction.
	Right.
	Right?
	So generally, the reason why, and men do this too, right?
	Men can do this with like showering the woman with resources and gifts and status and all that kind of stuff, right?
	Generally, women will love-bomb a man so that the man won't evaluate their family history, personality, fitness as a mother, long-term prospects as a stable partner.
	That's very fair.
	So, what was she covering up with sexual and love-bombing behavior?
	What was she trying to have you not see?
	I'm not saying this is some conscious plan, it's kind of an instinct, but I think it still happens.
	It definitely does be covering up her trauma, I believe, in large part, from childhood.
	It would be covering up her inadequacies that she felt I think.
	Um yeah that those would be two major ones.
	Okay, and rather the categories, what's the content of what she was covering up?
	Just how her family life and past is just a
	disaster of dysfunction and abuse and neglect.
	I think that it's all been swept under the rug and everybody's just living day by day in this hellish nightmare and nothing ever gets addressed and she's trapped in it but she can't get out because she can't accept there's more to life than these things.
	And it's just a nightmare.
	See now you've given me another category, but what is it in her family that are problems?
	So she has 13 siblings.
	I mean, Catholics, a lot of them breed like rabbits, as I'm sure you're aware of.
	It's to say there is inter-sibling abuse.
	Sexual abuse.
	Oh gosh.
	And was she herself a victim of that?
	Yeah.
	Uh, brothers?
	And how long, do you know how long that went on for?
	She told me that she couldn't remember when it started.
	I wish she explained it.
	It's about five, maybe earlier than five to 15.
	Oh my gosh.
	Was it one brother in particular or more than one?
	One, mostly, and then another one, apparently, one time.
	Oh, gosh.
	And what's her relationship to her, with her family now?
	Good.
	Apparently.
	I have issues with that because like I said, none of this was ever dealt with.
	I have a hard time talking about this stuff because I just see red.
	you It makes me physically sick.
	No, I get that.
	So what's your relationship like with your family?
	It's not good.
	I try to just stay away.
	I've made an effort.
	I think they liked me initially, but now it's taken five years, and I think they're more upset about that than anything.
	Upset about what?
	About me taking so long.
	And I've also shined some light on some things that That they did not want China and... Oh, so you've talked to them about the sibling sexual abuse?
	To one of the brothers, yeah.
	How much older was her brother who abused her?
	One was three years, three or four, the other one was five.
	Oh gosh, so when she was before five, he wasn't even in the double digits.
	Oh my gosh.
	Alright, so when did you find out about this abuse?
	Probably a couple months in.
	Right.
	So, again, I'm not trying to fault your girlfriend, but the mechanics, as far as I see it, and I could be wrong about this, of course, right?
	But the mechanics would be, I'm going to love-bomb this guy because I feel like damaged goods, and then I'm going to tell him the truth, and he's going to feel reluctant to leave me, because then he views me as a sympathetic victim that he needs to protect.
	That might have not been a conscious thought, but it could have been there.
	Well, what were your thoughts when you found out that this woman was the victim of, you know, half decade, well, a decade plus sexual abuse as a child?
	Just apoplectic rage and sadness and everything bad.
	And how long have you been listening to what I do?
	2015.
	Okay, so what I do predates you, like listening to what I do predates your relationship with
	this woman, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	When she told you that This had been her experience.
	Did you hesitate or did you have thoughts about not moving forward with a relationship that would lead to marriage and fatherhood?
	No.
	Because I'm broken too.
	I think this is why we bonded so fast. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't get the broken thing. Sorry.
	I mean, I'm with all sympathy and I'm keen to hear about your childhood, but you can't say I didn't because I'm
	broken.
	You have free will, you have choice, you have access to what I do, you have access to what other people do in terms
	of self-knowledge and morals.
	So, you know, I can't give you the broken card because people who say I'm broken, well, they're not responsible.
	Do you know what I mean?
	Right.
	I'll reword it.
	I was under, I am understanding because I've had similar things and I'm not gonna write somebody off because they've been abused.
	Well, that's, I mean, first of all, um, It's not a question of writing someone off because they've been abused.
	That's not the reality.
	Certainly, that's nothing to do with anything I've said.
	Right?
	So, should someone be written off because they were abused?
	Well, of course not.
	But what do they have to do?
	Well, the fact that somebody is abused doesn't mean that you write them off, but they have to do something.
	They can't just get a connection card because they were abused.
	They have to do things.
	They have to resolve their trauma.
	They have to put up boundaries.
	They have to maybe confront their abuses, if it's safe to do so.
	They have to pursue therapy.
	They have to do something, right?
	It's like saying, well, I can never have anyone on my football team who's ever broken An arm or a leg?
	Well, it's not that you've broken an arm or a leg, it's did you get it treated?
	Like, if you broke some arm or a leg, and it's set badly, and you're limping around, then you can't be on the football team.
	But if you broke your arm or your leg, and you got it treated, and, you know, maybe now you're stronger than you were before, because you've got bolts, and more exercise, and, right, rehab, and... I mean, so the fact that you've broken an arm or a leg doesn't keep you off the team.
	The question is, what did you do with it?
	But anyway, so what happened to you, my friend?
	what happened when you were a kid?
	Um...
	I uh, I grew up in a very strict household.
	Um...
	We have a farm, and we're into aviation, and I think I grew up pretty fast.
	I started working when I was eight in a very, let's just say, German household.
	So I worked with my dad and my grandpa, who owned everything at the time, and they're very disciplinary.
	Well, there's physical abuse scattered in amongst just, I'd say quite severe mental, emotional abuse.
	Um, just spread out, you know, from the ages of seven or eight earlier to now, even sometimes it's getting better, but, um, And yeah, there's a lot.
	And then we had... I'm sorry, I sort of feel like you're almost trying to hypnotize me, and I'm not saying this is a conscious thing, but the way that you're...
	Speaking.
	Okay, sorry.
	It's like, it's like, I've got this like, like some sort of Indian cobra, you know, like, trust in me.
	It's like, dude, just tell me.
	And like, I'm nothing but sympathy about this, right?
	But this, this like slow halting speech is just murdering the conversation.
	Sorry, sorry.
	I'm bad at just explaining things that kind of need pointed questions.
	Okay, so, you give categorizations that are invalid, and I say this with great sympathy, but before we get into that, can you tell me, and just in general, you keep giving me categories, you know, physical abuse, mental abuse, and so on, and I don't know what you mean by that.
	And I'm not saying you're wrong, but you know, physical abuse can be a slap across the face, or it can be beating you half to death with a rusty pipe.
	Right, so if you can tell me what happened, rather than the categorizations or your evaluations, then... Because I'm an empiricist, right?
	So if I can start with the facts, that would be helpful.
	Right, okay.
	So it would... I never got... I was never beaten.
	It was, you know, I'd get an open hand to the head, or even a closed fist to the back of the head, or I'd get shoved up a wall, or wing of an airplane, or...
	I get kicked in the ass with steel-toed boots.
	And it wasn't all the time.
	It was seldom.
	And I would prefer the physical over the emotional stuff, because when I was 13, I just stopped talking.
	Sorry, how often would you get attacked in this way physically?
	It was really sporadic.
	It would be once every six months.
	It all depended how I acted up.
	That's why I kind of just stopped talking, because if I didn't talk, I didn't get in trouble.
	If I didn't get in trouble, I didn't get hit, things didn't escalate.
	So I learned how to just stop.
	But it was very sporadic.
	Okay, so sometimes once every six months, but when did it cluster?
	Did it cluster?
	If my transgression was big enough, it would.
	Wow, so you really are putting this on yourself?
	Like you earned it through your behavior?
	Is that your theory?
	No.
	No, it's just... Because this is the second or third time that you said, well, when I acted up or when my transgressions or whatever, right?
	Right.
	But if you could predict it, you wouldn't have stopped talking.
	So, it's not you, right?
	If I don't know where the landmines are, I'm not going in the field.
	Like, I just, I won't go there, right?
	So, if it was predictable, right, if you knew there was a big giant pillar everywhere there was a landmine, you'd be able to cross the field, right?
	So, you went paralyzed because you couldn't figure out the pattern.
	So, how often would it happen if it clustered?
	Oh, it would be every day if I played my cards right.
	I don't know what you mean by if... I really dislike the phrase, but I'm just telling you my emotional reaction.
	What do you mean if I played my cards right?
	If I would backtalk enough, if I said the right things, if I didn't... Oh, if you stood up for yourself or disagreed with the bullies.
	Okay, so if you stood up for yourself, they would escalate their attacks to daily, maybe more than once a day, and beat you down, and try and destroy any resistance on your part, is that right?
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And then, when you were 13, you just stopped talking to your family?
	I didn't stop talking completely.
	I just, when I was around adults, I just...
	I just, I was more outgoing as a kid.
	I seemed happy.
	And I just got to a point, I just kind of shut off.
	And to the point where family friends would ask, you know, like, what's wrong with her?
	He just.
	Yeah.
	If you could stay off names, I'd appreciate that, but go ahead.
	Um, we had people would notice and.
	So you went on strike, so to speak?
	I don't think it was even a conscious decision.
	No, I get that.
	Yeah.
	And what happened in your teen years?
	Um... As I got older, things... They got better.
	They could also get worse.
	I got a little bit, I guess, I suppose more rebellious in my 15, 16, 17.
	It changed.
	It seemed more intense when I was younger, but maybe that's just because as I got older, I just got, I learned how to deal with it better.
	Sorry, what are you talking about?
	I mean, you got bigger.
	Yeah, but not as big as my dad.
	Yeah, I know, but you got bigger.
	Yeah.
	And so, if you get bullied in school, and then you take jujitsu and start working out like crazy, and you come back ripped, and everyone knows that you got a black belt in some martial arts, and you say, you know, my bullies got nicer, I guess they just changed, or, you know, it's like, well, no, you're tougher to bully when you're bigger, right?
	Yeah.
	Plus, you know, I mean, your dad would be probably in his forties or something like you.
	You slow down, right?
	Yeah.
	You're in the prime of your youth and strength and he's aging out.
	Yeah.
	But I'm 5'9 and 160 pounds and he's 6'3 and 250.
	So there was never really, he'd still beat my ass today at 34.
	Yeah, okay.
	Okay, got it.
	But nonetheless, you are getting to be adulthood, there's independence.
	I mean, it is tougher to push around a 17-year-old than a 7-year-old, right?
	Yeah.
	I think it was more an access for me to leave, you know, get a license and a vehicle and you could go somewhere that wasn't home.
	Right, of course, you're in the country, so you're trapped on the farm, right?
	And did you go to a local school, or were you homeschooled?
	I went to a local public school.
	And what was your experience there like?
	It was good, actually.
	I started playing football, and I didn't seem I could fit into any crowd.
	I went to all the parties.
	I hung out with all the popular kids.
	It was a good time.
	Grades were decent enough to go to college.
	It was generally a positive time.
	I always had a girlfriend.
	You said a couple of things about your father, I think, in particular, or the males.
	Maybe it was the females, too.
	German, disciplined, strict, and so on.
	I don't quite follow that.
	To me, the first discipline a man needs is over his own temper, right?
	And when someone's half-beaten up a little kid, that's not disciplined at all.
	That's entirely hedonistic and self-indulgent.
	No, they're extremely volatile and uncontrolled when it comes to temper.
	Okay, so they have no discipline.
	They have no self-discipline.
	They have no strictness at all.
	Okay, because you've got this... I'm always concerned with the language that people use to describe their abuse.
	So if you describe abuse as discipline or strictness or someone being a disciplinarian, Then you're probably gonna end up hedonistic with yourself, self-indulgent with yourself, because you'd be like, well, strictness is abuse, so I can't be strict.
	Having discipline is abuse, so I can't... I can't be disciplined, because then I'm just like my parents, and then you end up all over the map, if that makes sense.
	And that's my greatest fears.
	That strictness is discipline?
	Yeah, or just becoming... either becoming like them, or becoming the opposite of them, and getting walked over.
	Right, okay.
	Okay, got it.
	So, is it a fair thing to say that your father was a hedonist who had a ridiculously lazy indulgent streak with regards to his own temper?
	Yes.
	Okay, so he's lazy and hedonistic with regards to his temper.
	With regards to temper, yeah.
	Which was, it sounds like, the defining characteristic of your childhood.
	More or less, and I had it from my grandpa, too.
	Who is worse?
	Go on.
	Well, that's, of course, where dad got it, and... Nope.
	Nope, nope, nope.
	You keep trying to give this no-free-will argument.
	Right, and... Would you, you know, I mean, I was beaten as a child.
	Do I then get to beat my child?
	No.
	No, so don't give me this he-got-it-dominoes crap.
	He chose.
	Could have chose differently, could have read books on parenting, could have done anything.
	I mean, to be a farmer, you need to do a lot of research and a lot of reading.
	There's a lot of science and chemistry and biology involved.
	I'm sure he studied farming to the point where he was a successful farmer.
	He could have picked up a book on parenting.
	He could have done anything, right?
	Because if you take away free will from your parents, you take it away from yourself.
	It's one big giant slide.
	You know those sliders you have up and down and windows to like equalizers and stuff?
	There's only one slider.
	Free will, determinism.
	And if you start making excuses for your parents and you take away their free will, you make excuses for yourself and you lose control over your own life.
	Because we can't live with that kind of contradiction where my parents are just dominoes from their history
	but I have free will and it's like come on I mean the same species we kind of have opposite characteristics
	So what about Muttah?
	What about your mother?
	He also had a rough childhood.
	Big surprise.
	Oh, so you're starting off with excuses for them too?
	For her too?
	No, no, I'm just... I'm trying to lay out what it was... Do you want me to... No, no, you're trying to give me... I'm sorry to interrupt, but you're, you know, if I say, what about your mother?
	Well, she had a rough childhood too.
	That's starting off with excuses.
	A rough childhood gives you more responsibility to be a better person.
	Like, it's kind of a funny thing.
	People say, well, my mother had a bad childhood, so of course she was not a great mother.
	And it's like, that doesn't make any sense to me at all.
	I mean, if you have a bad childhood, you know exactly how it hurts, you know exactly what not to do.
	So, I mean, I'm sorry, it's a very common thing in these calls, that people say they give excuses to people based upon their bad childhood.
	But having a bad childhood gives you a greater responsibility to be a better parent, because
	you know exactly what it's like to be on the receiving end.
	And I think both my parents made an effort to do that.
	They failed in a lot of ways.
	They continued... They failed!
	No, see... Oh, God!
	Beating a child is not a failure!
	It's evil!
	A failure is, you know, I tried to hit a high C as a tenor and I couldn't make it.
	Okay, that's not a moral thing!
	I tried to learn piano, but, you know, I was all fat-fingered the keyboard and I didn't enjoy it and I never ended up learning... Right?
	Failure is not a moral term.
	You were beaten as a child.
	They chose that.
	They did that.
	And as you found out as you got older, they could choose to not do that as you got bigger.
	And stronger.
	I mean, football, right?
	And more popular, and you had more social support, right?
	So as you got more social support, your parents were nicer to you because they were afraid of you talking with your friends about the abuse.
	Yeah, I'm just trying to think.
	It could have been a component, but I... Again, it's an instinct, but tell me a little bit about, or more, about what happened with Mother.
	As a child?
	Yes.
	You, you as a... I don't care about your mother's childhood, you as a child.
	Oh, we have a pretty good relationship today.
	She was a good, or is a good mother.
	She's very caring.
	She's very nurturing.
	Okay.
	You, you, you can't, you've been listening to this show for how long, right?
	You, you, you can't, you can't try and sell me this nonsense.
	You're not a new listener.
	Okay.
	What are you, what are you talking about?
	She married a guy who beat her children.
	terrified her children, drove you into a monk-like vow of silence out of despair and nihilism and hopelessness.
	But she was a good mother!
	Come on, man, what are you doing to me?
	What are you trying to sell me here? I don't understand.
	I just...
	I struggle with these things, and...
	No, you don't, you just...
	You just told me the most... I mean, you know, did you have any thought that I would be like, yeah, sounds great, sounds like she was a wonderful mother?
	No.
	I knew better.
	Okay, so what the hell?
	What are you doing?
	Are you on automatic speak?
	Because if you're on automatic speak, I don't even know that we can have a conversation.
	I don't mean to sound mean, but if you're just going to read off family propaganda bullshit, I don't even know who can... Like, what's the point?
	It's like going to the doctor and saying, I feel fine, when you're doubled over in pain, or everything's great, or like, what's the point?
	Right.
	I think where I'm coming from is... I mean, you took time off work not to tell me lies, didn't you?
	Right.
	I think where I'm coming from is I'm trying to put those things behind us and move on and build a better relationship with them and other people in my life.
	But, and taking out the abuse, it's just, that's a big thing I've struggled with is how do you Oh, you're in business with your family?
	what things? The abuse and then but yet trying to foster relationship as an adult
	Yes.
	not only a personal relationship but a business relationship. Oh you're in
	business with your family? Yes. Okay. We don't... Sorry but have have they
	acknowledged their wrongs and apologized for beating you and it's a psychological
	torture and driving you into silence has...
	Has that conversation occurred?
	Have they gone to therapy?
	Have they read Anger Management?
	Have they tried to make restitution?
	I mean, what's happened with that?
	It has, and yes to everything.
	They've gone to therapy.
	They've apologized.
	They've recognized everything they did.
	I truly feel their story for it because the behavior has stopped.
	They try to be more supportive now.
	And that's great to hear, of course.
	When did that occur?
	About the same time I started listening to you.
	Okay, so like eight years ago, give or take?
	Okay, so eight years ago, do you know how, and it doesn't have to be exact, but roughly how long they went to therapy for?
	My mom still does.
	My dad, he didn't go very often, but once in a while he would go and he started around then.
	I think he even went a couple of times in the last couple of years.
	So, but my mom, she goes to this day.
	Okay, so your parents had gone through, I mean, a very admirable process of reconciliation and healing prior to you getting involved with this woman, right?
	It was mid-course at that point, but yes.
	Sorry, I don't know what you mean by mid-course.
	In earnest, you know, 2014, 15, we started a relationship, 18.
	No, but they'd certainly gone through this.
	And the most important part is, you know, the acknowledgement of the wrong and the commitment to improve and that they have improved and that's good for them and all that, right?
	Okay.
	So they knew because you have a better relationship with them, right?
	I mean, you're not, you're not silent with them anymore, right?
	Okay, so you start dating this woman five years ago and you tell your parents about her, right?
	And your parents obviously were sorry for what they did in the past for harming you, so your parents would then be very committed to trying to keep you safe, right?
	So you say, yes, you know, I met this girl, she's super pretty, we went to bed right away, and three weeks in she told me she loved me.
	What would your parents say, if they're committed to keeping you safe?
	Ask me what I was doing, probably.
	I don't know what I... Yes, you do!
	Because they've gone through self-knowledge, and they've gone through therapy, at least for a couple of years at this point.
	And they say, gee, you know, we harmed him as a kid, so what would be restitution now would be to protect him as an adult, right?
	Does that make sense?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, you're throwing up red flags like a Chinese Communist parade here in the early part if you're dating with this woman, right?
	Yeah.
	So, what did your parents say about this Catholic who slept with you right away and told you she loved you after a couple of weeks?
	I mean, my parents likely knew that was happening.
	I don't often get personal like that with them, or at the time.
	I tried to do it more now, but I didn't.
	I'm sorry, they knew you, but did you tell them that you met a girl?
	Yeah, but I didn't.
	Okay, so you told them.
	That you'd met a girl.
	Now they, of course, having accepted, and I don't mean this sarcastically, I'm like genuinely accepting this, but because they've accepted the harm they did to you as a child, they know that you are going to have trouble with boundaries and a deep hunger and need to be loved, right?
	Yes.
	Of course, right?
	Because you were starved of love as a child.
	So, your parents, they've gone through therapy and in therapy Since it's about you a lot, right?
	They go through therapy and one of the ways that parents make restitution for the wrongs that they've done is they go to therapy and they say, not just about themselves and my childhood, my childhood and my feelings and my feelings, but they say, how can I best help my son, right?
	So they go to the therapist and they're going to therapy, your mom in particular, going to therapy for years, and I'm sure she said, look, Because she cares about you, right?
	She's making restitution for having allowed you to be brutally harmed as a child, and not just allowed to, but enabling the entire situation by marrying an abuser and giving him children.
	So she would have said to her therapist, OK, listen, what do I need to look out for with my son?
	Because I want to make sure that I'm serving him now, because I allowed him, or set up the environment where he was brutally harmed as a child, right?
	Right?
	It's about... The therapy is about resolving their issues for sure, but it's also very much about helping you, because that's the restitution element.
	Does that make sense?
	Okay.
	So, she goes to her therapist and she says, how can I best help my son?
	Like, or, in other words, I was abusive towards my son, and so I need to know the effects that my abuse had towards my son, so that I can help guide him and protect him as an adult.
	Does that make sense?
	Okay, so your mother and your father and whoever else was involved in this family healing circle, they are then committed to undoing or at least helping to prevent a repeat of the wrongs that happened to you as a child by working to protect you as an adult, right?
	That would be restitution, right?
	So you start dating a woman And because they've talked to therapists about how best to serve and protect you as an adult, they know what to look for, right?
	They know, you know, hunger for love, lack of boundaries, and white knight syndrome, because you've already done that with your mother.
	So, they would know all of this stuff because they talked to the therapist, but not just about themselves and their childhoods and I, Me, Me, I, but about how to be better parents in the here and now.
	Right?
	When you start dating a woman, they're going to ask you a ton of questions.
	So when you say, well, I didn't volunteer stuff, I don't... I mean, it would be their job to find out, because they want to be better parents, right?
	I'm just trying to remember what... how the conversation went.
	It was mostly with my mom, because I really don't talk about that kind of stuff at all with my dad.
	See, again, you're taking the lead.
	Like, well, my father's actions are simply a shadow cast by my choices.
	Right?
	If your father asked, tell me about this woman, tell me what's going on.
	Uh, I really want to make sure that I'm there for you.
	And I want to make sure that the harm we did to you as a, as a child is not reproduced in any relationship in the present.
	Cause you know, he's gone to therapy and he's, you know, he's admitted his wrong and he's, you know, I, I harmed you.
	Right?
	So if you harmed someone.
	You owe them restitution, right?
	Right?
	I mean, if I borrow your car and put a giant dent in it, don't I owe you fixing the car?
	Do I just come back and say, yeah man, sorry, my bad, and wander off?
	So the restitution is to protect you from the effects of the damage that they did to you as a child.
	Does that make sense?
	So your father would be, oh gosh, you know, you're getting into a relationship.
	Well, we did you a lot of harm as a child, and we understand that.
	So I'm gonna work really hard to try and help you not end up in a bad situation as an adult with dating, right?
	Ideally.
	I don't know what you mean by the word ideally.
	It's just, that's not my daddy.
	Oh, so now he has no free will again and he's back to like a statue of circumstances and that's just not him?
	Was it him to go to therapy?
	He went to therapy, right?
	Not as much as he should have.
	Well, I don't know about any of that, but the fact that he went, would you have expected him to do that?
	I don't think that these topics are broached in therapy.
	Well, that's not much restitution, then, is it?
	If your parents went to therapy and talked about themselves, which is part of it for sure, but if your parents went to therapy and didn't figure out how they could best undo the damage they did by helping protect you as an adult, then it's not much restitution, is it?
	No.
	Okay, so you talked to your mom about the new woman in your life, right?
	Yeah.
	And I assume you told her that things were moving pretty fast, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	And what did she say?
	Did she warn you?
	Did she say, here's the danger, you know, you were starved for life as a kid, and so being left-bombed is a real vulnerability for you, and I'm concerned about this, and blah, blah, blah, right?
	That wasn't raised.
	It's just, I think my parents now, for the most part, trust my judgment.
	Even though it can be bad sometimes.
	What do you mean they trust your judgment?
	I don't understand.
	So five years ago, you were making bad choices, right?
	With this woman.
	And you opened up... I mean, this is what you said to me, right?
	You said we've done it all the wrong way, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So, I don't know about trusting your judgment, whatever, that's just a smokescreen.
	So, when you told your mother things are moving super fast with this woman who comes from a family of 13 other children, what did your mother say?
	She... I think she just showed general concern.
	She said... Well, she just asked what she was like and...
	I'm just trying to remember back then.
	And then yeah, she just, you know, be careful, but I hope she makes you happy.
	Careful?
	What the hell does that mean?
	I don't know what that means.
	I don't know.
	Okay, when you found out that your girlfriend had gone through a decade plus of sibling sexual abuse as a toddler to teen, did you tell any of your parents?
	I told my mom not only that, I took girlfriend to my mom to talk about it when she was really struggling with things because my mom had similar experiences growing up.
	Oh, your mom was sexually abused as well?
	And did she, had she dealt with that before therapy or has she done anything to deal with that before therapy?
	She definitely has since.
	I don't think there was very much before though.
	Okay.
	So your mother has obviously done, I assume, has done some work with a therapist on the issue of being sexually abused as a child?
	Okay.
	So then, you bring your girlfriend to your mother, and what was the idea?
	You said to help her?
	Yeah, she was really struggling with things.
	What things was she struggling with?
	I don't know, things is a bit abstract.
	Sorry, things we were talking about.
	The particulars of the abuse.
	Just generally how things happened, when, how it's bothering her now, and as this stuff comes up, you understand it's very painful.
	And at the night that it happened, like, she came unglued, like, just inconsolably crying, and this is above my...
	Capabilities to deal with.
	So I said, listen, let's go.
	I called my mom and I said, can we come talk to you?
	And how long into your relationship with the woman was this?
	A six months.
	Oh gosh.
	Okay.
	So six months in, she kind of has a real breakdown about the sexual abuse, which again, you and I can both completely empathize with and understand.
	This is a brutal, brutal experience that went on year after year after year.
	And as you say, one primary perpetrator and one incidental one.
	So you say, let's go talk to my mom.
	You call your mom and you say, what did you say to your mom?
	I said, she's really struggling.
	And I told my mom earlier that just the general like this, she had this happen as a child, and my mom... Oh, so your mom knew that your girlfriend... Just in passing, generally... Well, no, no, don't give me in passing stuff, Avi.
	Well, not in passing, but generally... Come on, so you told your mother that your girlfriend had been seriously sexually abused as a child, right?
	Okay.
	And you said that you found that out, and listen, I'm not trying to cross-examine you or catch you out, I just want to make sure I have the timeline correct, so, you know, because I don't have a biography here.
	So you found out a couple of months into the relationship with your girlfriend that she'd had this savage sexual abuse, and within relatively short order, did you tell your mother?
	Yeah, it wouldn't have been long before the night that we went there.
	Okay, so when you told your mother that your girlfriend was a decade-plus victim of childhood sexual abuse, and it was untreated and unprocessed, what did your mother say?
	She was very upset, and she wanted to help.
	I'm not sure what that means.
	She can relate, and she saw that it bothered me.
	Well, it bothered her, too, and she felt sympathy for my girlfriend, and she wanted to help her if she could.
	Oh, so then she suggested that your girlfriend go and see a therapist, which is what your mother did, right?
	She did, yeah.
	Okay, so your mother, who's got some obviously very tragic expertise in this area, said that you've got to get your girlfriend to a therapist, because you can't fix it, right?
	I mean, her husband couldn't fix her history, she had to go to a therapist, right?
	Okay, so did she say, you can't fix this, she has to get to a therapist?
	And I'm not saying in those words or whatever, but was that a general thing?
	I think generally, yeah.
	But I think talking these things, With people who have shared experience this can be beneficial I Think that's where she was getting at too Okay, so so then you Come back to your girlfriend after talking to your mom while you talk to your girlfriend after talking to your mom And your mom says to you listen you can't fix this
	And she needs to get into therapy, and it's going to be a very lengthy process to deal with it.
	So did you go back to your girlfriend and say, listen, my mom, who's the expert in this, says you've got to get to a therapist?
	I told her that, and I know that.
	I told her that before I went to therapy for a couple years.
	And when did you go to therapy?
	When?
	Yeah, uh 15 to 17 Ah, okay
	Yeah.
	Did the therapist warn you about your susceptibility to love-bombing, having been love-starved, and did your therapist give you any warnings about that kind of stuff in the future?
	Okay.
	So, you go back to your girlfriend a couple of months into the relationship after talking to your mom.
	And again, I hope this doesn't sound like cross-examination.
	I'm just trying to figure out the sequence, so I apologize if this sounds cold-hearted or anything.
	I'm just trying to understand.
	So you go to your girlfriend and you say, listen, I can't help you with this.
	Like, if your girlfriend broke her leg, and there was bones sticking out, like, you'd have to get her to a doctor, right?
	Yeah.
	Whereas, you know, she sprains her ankle, maybe it's rest ice, compression, elevation, I don't know, whatever, right?
	So you say, listen, you have an injury that's beyond my power to heal, right?
	Or help.
	So you've got to get to a therapist, and what did your girlfriend say?
	She was apprehensive about it at first.
	I kept pushing for it and ultimately it started with me taking her and we sat in a couple with each other.
	Sorry, do you mean you went for couples counseling?
	Yeah, we had a couple of sessions together and then she went on her own for a bit.
	Not long enough.
	It was a start.
	How long did she go?
	Probably another four or five times.
	Okay.
	So obviously that's nowhere near enough to deal with the trauma she's got, right?
	I assume.
	I'm no expert, but that's my assumption.
	No, it doesn't even scratch the surface.
	It's just, I mean, as you understand, it's at, I think the last session, therapy session I paid for, I had a couple last year.
	And they were $2.40 an hour for somebody who's lower income.
	She makes more money now, but at that time, that's a big... Well, okay, so I understand that, and of course I sympathize with that as well, but did she continue to do any kind of journaling work, or work with herself, or talk to her family about these issues, or anything like that?
	She did some drilling.
	She confronted one of the brothers.
	But it's the parents' responsibility, right?
	That never happens.
	Okay, so then, was the therapy and the confrontation between you finding out about the sexual abuse and her talking to your mother, or was that after she talked to your mother?
	After.
	Okay.
	So, she talked to your mother, and how did that go?
	I thought it was beneficial. Um My girlfriend kind of she just vented to my mom
	My mom listened, and... I kind of walked away for some of the conversation, because, you know, a man being in their presence here, that changes the dynamic of the conversation a bit, so I kind of just distanced myself, and... And they were hugging and crying, and... It'll be... Everything will be alright.
	You just gotta keep working on it, and... Sorry, your mother said everything will be alright.
	She's just consoling her, generally.
	Like, we'll work on this.
	It'll be okay.
	You know, just trying to get her to calm down and get stuff off her chest.
	But I think generally it went well.
	And it was just the one time?
	Was it like an hour or two?
	I'd say it's probably an hour, hour and a half.
	Okay.
	So your mother's been going to therapy off and on for like seven, eight years?
	Okay.
	So your mother would know that it's a long-term process, right?
	Oh, yeah.
	And everybody that does it does know that and It's and I've had contentions with this before and I told
	her this when she stopped going like you Thank you.
	This takes years.
	It's not something that you go a few times and it's even begun To get fixed, and what she says is she has a hard time bringing up the topics, which I understand fully, and I really didn't push it.
	And that's the point, though.
	To deal with trauma, you have to address these things head on, and if you don't do that, it can't be.
	You keep pushing it under the rug, pushing it under the rug, and you're not dealing with it, and it just keeps Making these problems in your life and if they aren't dealt with you like you're gonna train wreck.
	I try to emphasize this it's just Well, but you wouldn't have much credibility, right?
	I mean you haven't made the tough decisions based upon self-knowledge, right?
	Like you can't fix your girlfriend.
	She's not going to therapy.
	So what what are you doing?
	Like when you said that this was just six months into the relationship right you find out all this terrible stuff and She's having breakdowns, meltdowns, can't stop crying, can't catch a breath, I assume.
	Right?
	So she's got like massive deep-seated trauma to deal with.
	You can't fix it.
	She doesn't go to therapy and you're like, okay, well, let's just keep dating then.
	Right.
	And your mother doesn't say, no, you can't date this woman because she's an untreated
	victim of childhood sexual abuse that went on for a decade plus?
	So why do you think your mom didn't say that?
	you Because she's there to protect you, right?
	She wants to make up for not protecting you as a child, so she should damn well protect you as an adult, right?
	It's true.
	But why?
	I... Hmm.
	Failed you again.
	Totally failed you again.
	In my view, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but...
	She would have deep insight as to the effects of childhood sexual abuse because she herself was sexually abused as a child.
	And she would know that you can't fix this.
	And she would know that an hour or two of being hugged and told everything's going to be alright doesn't fix the problem.
	Right?
	And I thought that You've got a good relationship with your mother, right?
	She's there to help you.
	She's there to make up for not protecting you as a child.
	And then she sees this tragic victim of decade plus childhood sexual abuse is untreated and you're like, and she's like, yeah, keep dating her.
	Sounds good.
	I'm sure.
	I know she had her reservations.
	It's just, they don't, why she didn't say that.
	I, I'm not sure.
	She wants me to be quote-unquote happy.
	She knows I've spent a- Oh, that's such an easy thing to say.
	Who cares what people say about that?
	I know, it's- Okay, so she wants you to be happy.
	She knows you better than any other human being on the planet, right?
	She's your mother.
	At the time, yeah.
	No, no.
	Ever.
	Because your girlfriend may know you well, but she didn't know you as a baby, or a child, or a toddler, right?
	She didn't know all the things that influenced you.
	She wasn't there directly shaping your personality like a potter on a wheel of clay, right?
	So your mother knows you the best of anyone in this world, right?
	True.
	Okay.
	Your mother wants you to be happy.
	Are you happy I think happiness is
	Thanks.
	An unattainable state.
	Okay.
	So, she wants you to be happy, which means that she's selling you a delusion called happiness, according to your theory.
	And she's saying, like, she might as well say, my goal as a mother is to help you fly by flapping your arms.
	Is that, like, you think she's crazy?
	Like, she just wants you to be happy, but that's an unattainable state?
	No, just to clarify.
	The constant pursuit of happiness is good, it is a needed thing to be fulfilled, but to try and live in a constant state of happiness is not.
	Sorry, when did I say a constant state of happiness?
	I'm not sure why you're stitching that straw man into something I said.
	I said, are you happy?
	Now, do you think that I mean by that you're permanently at a happiness state of 10?
	Do you really think that that's what I'm talking about?
	Okay, so why are you bringing in a straw man called perfection, which is nothing that I said?
	Your mother wants you to be generally happy.
	Right?
	Just assume that the word generally is in there, which is what everyone assumes, right?
	So your mother wants you to be happy.
	Are you generally happy?
	Okay, so your mother wants you to be happy.
	She knows you the best of everyone, and therefore, if you're not happy, she's failed you somehow.
	If you look back in time, and again I know this is a tough question and whatever your answer is I'm obviously perfectly satisfied with, if you look back in time over the last five years and how enmeshed you are in this woman's life, your girlfriend's life, sorry I don't mean to say this woman like she's some stranger, in your lover or your girlfriend's life, do you think it was wise to continue the relationship almost five years ago when you found out about the level of trauma that was unprocessed that she'd experienced as a child?
	Okay, so your mother could have saved you from the last five years, but she didn't lift a goddamn finger.
	That's true.
	So what the hell is going on?
	Yeah, that's a good question.
	Um...
	Why did she let you wander into the lion's den when she knew exactly about the lions?
	I mean if she'd gone to her therapist she was doing therapy right?
	If she'd gone to her therapist and said, my son is dating an untreated victim of decade-plus sexual abuse,
	who's having general meltdowns, what do you think, like, should I advise him to maybe take
	a break or hold back on the pursuit of the relationship? What do you think her
	therapist would have said?
	Oh.
	I don't think I...
	The therapist she goes to is the one I went to for quite a while.
	I don't think she would have said that, no.
	No, no, sorry.
	She's there to help you, right?
	She's there to make up for what she did as a mother when you were little, right?
	No, I'm just talking about the therapist that she wouldn't have...
	The therapist wouldn't have said, it may be unwise to continue in a relationship with an untreated victim of decade-plus sexual abuse.
	I don't think so.
	All right.
	They should have, but I don't think the topic was... Okay, but you knew that anyway, right?
	Because you said, I can't help her, I can't fix her.
	Okay, so you knew that you couldn't fix your girlfriend, and you can't, right?
	Your mother knew that you couldn't fix your girlfriend.
	Your father, I'm sure, knew that you were dating a woman, right?
	And so, your family knew that you were dating this woman, that she was unstable, and I don't say this in any critical way, I say this with deep sympathy, but she was unstable, highly traumatized, probably complex PTSD, not that I know, I don't know, I'm just an amateur, right?
	But that's sort of the acronym that's floating through my head.
	But, everyone sees you getting enmeshed and love-bombed by this woman who's highly unstable.
	And, what, they're just like, yeah, go for it, man.
	Seems good.
	I guess that's ultimately the prognosis, yeah.
	Do you see why I'm a little skeptical of all of this restitution and apology stuff?
	Oh, we apologize for failing to protect you and harming you in the past.
	Now be sure to get further enmeshed in this unstable love-bomb relationship.
	No fear, that's a good point.
	I just... They've learned nothing!
	I guess the ultimate question I have...
	Look at you going all abstract on me.
	I give you a very important insight and you're like, yes, but the ultimate question, right?
	You're just skipping away from this, right?
	How do you hold them to account?
	Well, you can't hold people to account.
	What do you mean?
	You're not a judge.
	You can't throw them in jail, right?
	How can you hold people to account?
	They either have a conscience or they don't.
	If they have a conscience, you just need to remind them of their values and their conscience will take over and hold them to account.
	If they don't have a conscience, you can't do shit.
	But you also shouldn't have to remind them often.
	you Well, of course, yeah.
	It's... I'm trying to word what I'm thinking about.
	Holding them to account was the wrong term, but when these failings keep happening, how do you rectify it?
	What do you mean?
	How do you make people care for you in a productive, positive, empathetic, and loving way?
	You can't.
	Well, it's been 34 years, man.
	What do you think 35 is going to look like?
	That's the thing.
	I've lost Basically hope that these things can be fixed in a meaningful way.
	It's just, can we survive and can we thrive?
	I mean, that's just a bumper sticker, survive and thrive.
	I don't even know what that means.
	Like just preserve what we have and try to grow on a relationship.
	Sorry, what do you have?
	I think what I have now is better than what I had and I'm trying to build on it more.
	No, but what you have now with your family is deeply enmeshed in what you have with your girlfriend.
	And, also, not inconsiderable, you're not happy.
	So.
	What's going on with your girlfriend right now?
	You said she's having sort of a Catholic paroxysm of guilt and accountability?
	Yes.
	So, what is that looking like in your daily life?
	Like I said, it just started.
	She just got home on Sunday.
	Oh, from her parents?
	No, from that spiritual retreat.
	Sorry, yes, go ahead.
	She just got home.
	So now everything's changed and as far as the dynamics of the relationships that means you know sleeping over at
	night.
	No and approaches what she's born virgin now.
	Yes, yes.
	That's, that's, I'm trying to say, yes.
	That was, I guess I didn't do that.
	After five years, now it's no sex before marriage, right?
	Yes.
	Okay, listen, I mean, I know that sounds kind of like jaw-dropping, but, okay, that's her values, and what else?
	And nothing until we're married.
	Which... Okay, and is she going to stop bearing false witness with regards to her family?
	Because that's a pretty important commandment too, right?
	I mean, not having sex?
	Okay.
	But, thou shalt not bear false witness.
	She's been lying to her family by omission, by not talking with everyone about the sexual abuse, right?
	So, is she going to stop lying to her family?
	No.
	Oh, so she's a little bit buffet, pick and choosy here, right?
	Very much so.
	Okay.
	So what else?
	As far as behavior changes?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	What, what does she want now?
	So yeah, there's everything that we're used to is now changing.
	Um, she doesn't want me watching porn, which is fine.
	I don't anyways But it's
	What else you
	Has she apologized to you for drawing you into a life of sin that imperils your very soul?
	Yes.
	And I believe her when she says this is for the betterment of us and our future and our souls.
	It's just I know How she does things, her modalities of life, her choices, she's fickle.
	She admits this, that... And you know how some women are.
	Their emotions, their desires are just like the wind.
	They're up, they're down, they're north-south.
	No, that's only unstable people, but it's not confined to women.
	Right, no, I'm trying to make that... I said some men are like that too.
	No, but I don't want to... you're trying to blend your girlfriend into some women.
	No, that's your girlfriend.
	I mean, forget about some women, because then that's putting her in a category, right?
	She's an individual.
	Okay, and now, does she say that she's going to take sacraments?
	Does she say you have to convert or you're going to hell?
	She's taken the sacraments, as of Sunday.
	Ideally, the Catholic...
	They're a prophetizing religion, so they push conversion.
	And I have real, real issues with that.
	Well, I mean, I hate to say forget about you.
	Do you want to be a father someday?
	Okay.
	Do you want your kids raised in the Catholic faith?
	I've asked myself this a lot.
	Well, it's become a little more pressing now, right?
	Yeah, and I think the answer is yes, I'd be okay with it, with supervision.
	I don't know what you mean.
	I mean, do you believe in God, the resurrection, the Ten Commandments, the Holy Spirit?
	I just don't believe.
	In a middleman.
	I don't believe in priesthood.
	But that's the Catholic faith!
	It's a middleman!
	I know.
	I know.
	Do you believe in hell?
	Do you believe in judgment?
	Do you believe in all of that?
	I do.
	I mean, I just... I'm not criticizing, I'm just curious.
	The more I learn about things, well, the less I know in it, I can't... I struggle with religion.
	Hang on, but why would you want your children to be raised in a belief system that you don't accept?
	What kind of authority is that going to give you?
	Ultimately, it's forced on me.
	I'm sorry, what?
	That's the main problem I have with the church, is it's forced on me.
	Well, but if you have that issue with the church, then it will be inflicted on your children, in your view, right?
	Okay, do you have the right to do that to kids?
	I'm sorry?
	If you said, listen, I've seen the light, I've had a revelation, and I'm going to convert, and I'm 100% in for Catholicism, there would be consistency in the child's upbringing, right?
	And you would be acting in accordance with your values, right?
	So, it's not about you and your girlfriend and your addiction to her and all of that and your girlfriend's conversion, it's about your future kids!
	So, if your wife, sorry, if your girlfriend wants to raise your children in a belief system you don't accept and you don't have the right to inflict that on your kids, if my understanding of what you're saying is correct.
	Then isn't that your answer?
	I said I struggle with this a lot.
	You know, you struggle with the addiction.
	The answer seems fairly clear, right?
	You struggle with following through on the decision, but if I understand the parameters correctly, That you can't inflict upon your children a belief system that you don't accept or respect, and that's what your wife would want to do, then the answer's clear, right?
	I mean, it's like, you can see the top of the mountain, it's hard to climb, but you know the destination, right?
	Yeah, no, this is an answer I've been Searching myself for it.
	Will your girlfriend be... I mean, outside of the religious side of things... Will your girlfriend be a great mother?
	Please, so, yeah.
	So, has she had any more treatment for her childhood sexual abuse?
	Yeah, I should have seen that one coming.
	Oh my god, man, you're making me work like a...
	Cooley here my god, I'm like a surf in the hot Sun sweating and dying and pee at myself here. Holy crap
	So untreated victims unstable untreated victims Of childhood sexual abuse can be great mothers. Is this
	this what you're trying to sell to me now?
	No Not until it's dealt with
	Well, she doesn't respect your authority, right?
	And by authority I mean it's mutual, I'm sure that's the thing she has authority with as well.
	But you've gone to therapy, and you're telling her to go to therapy.
	Your mom's gone to therapy, your mother's telling her to go to therapy.
	Is she listening?
	Says no respect.
	I guess that's fair.
	I mean there's no real relationship if you don't surrender to someone else's authority
	on certain things, right?
	My wife tells me to do things, I'll just do them.
	Because she's an expert on stuff, right?
	It's division of labor.
	It's the whole point of marriage.
	You're telling her, here's how to be a fixed human being, and for five, almost five years, she's basically given you the finger and said, I know better.
	I'm not listening to you or your mother, who's had direct experience and healing.
	I'm not going to submit to any authority, even legitimate authority, from people who are more experienced, right?
	It's like me arguing with my dentist, right?
	You need to floss.
	Screw you, Noah, don't!
	Okay, but let me play a bit of devil's advocate here for her.
	She's gonna say, the only authority is the church.
	Well, okay, so let's get to that, right?
	Let's get to that.
	So, she won't listen to you or your mother who have direct experience with therapy and trauma resolution, right?
	However, she will go away and listen to strangers about exactly how to live.
	Right?
	Who have really no idea what they're talking about when it comes to this.
	You have no idea what they're talking about?
	So, you've been trying for five years to get her to go to therapy.
	She won't go.
	Your mother tried to get her to go to therapy.
	She won't go.
	Strangers say, cross your legs, she's like, that's it, you're cut off, man.
	And I've raised this before.
	I don't care what you've raised.
	I care what happens.
	By your fruits shall you know them.
	We know what your girlfriend believes based upon what she's done.
	So what you've said or haven't said doesn't really matter.
	we know what she believes, right?
	Now, the church says, and this is the Catholic Church too, if someone has wronged you, go and talk to that person
	privately.
	If they don't acknowledge their sin and wrong, talk to them in a small group.
	If they don't acknowledge their sin and wrong, talk to them in a large group.
	And if they don't admit their sin and wrong, ostracize them.
	Okay?
	So that's the Church, right?
	And that's the Catholic Church.
	Did her brother wrong her?
	Did her parents wrong her by failing to protect her?
	Oh, absolutely.
	Okay, so she needs to, according to the faith, right?
	She needs to go and talk to her parents and her brother.
	And she did.
	Oh, I'm sorry.
	I thought she only talked to her brother.
	No, just, yeah, I think it's just the brother.
	Oh, so you're just trying to sneak the parent thing in there, right?
	I'm sorry.
	A bit of a bundled proposition there.
	I meant she went and talked to...
	You don't think?
	Wouldn't you remember that?
	Yeah, I mean, come on, man.
	You know you're fucking here, right?
	Wouldn't you remember that?
	I'm just thinking of our conversations and I don't know.
	She hasn't.
	Yeah, I mean, come on, man.
	You know you're fucking here, right?
	You'd remember that.
	No, it's I'm thinking of one one conversation in particular.
	And I was just so, as it was happening, I was so, say emotional for a polite term.
	I just, I'm having a hard time remembering particulars.
	I was just so mad.
	Sorry, you mean when she talked to her brother?
	No, her telling me about that.
	About the conversation with her brother?
	Yeah.
	That's why I'm a bit foggy.
	I just blacked out.
	And what was the outcome of her conversation with her brother?
	This is the one who abused her for 10 plus years?
	Yeah.
	What happened?
	He ultimately apologized.
	== Notes Bye.
	I don't think in a very meaningful way, likely, but it, like, oh, you know, I said, I'm like, I'm sorry.
	Like that, that.
	What else do you want from me, man?
	Yeah, I did.
	I wasn't going to change the past.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Shit like that.
	It just...
	And does her brother have children?
	He's a schizophrenic.
	That's.
	He's out of it.
	Wait, so she went to confront a guy who's schizophrenic about the evils he did?
	Yep.
	Okay, alright.
	So, he's out of it, but she's not talked to her parents to your knowledge?
	And what's her relationship like with her parents and her family at the moment?
	On the surface, everything seems fine.
	We had an argument about a month ago that we were talking about her parents and it irritates me to see her pedestalize her parents and know all my parents are there.
	They're so great.
	They're doing this.
	They're doing that.
	They've done this.
	Oh, she praises her parents.
	Yeah.
	Oh, bro.
	Come on, man.
	What are you doing?
	What are you doing here?
	I got upset.
	She praises the parents who failed to protect her and raised a sexually abusive brother.
	I raised... and I raised this exact... No, I don't care what you raised!
	Sorry!
	The fact... you say you raised it like it means something.
	She praises These parents, which means they're going to be part of your life and they're going to be part of your children's lives.
	Right?
	Right.
	Right.
	Okay.
	You know you don't really need to call me, right?
	I know, but... So, what's going on here?
	Like, come on.
	What's the challenge here?
	I suppose I'm just really struggling with...
	So you have a principle down here, because the struggle thing simply means you're ambivalent,
	which means two poised and opposing forces, right?
	Okay?
	What is the principle of staying together?
	What is the underlying ethic or moral or principle of staying together that is a challenge?
	What is it deep down, the obligation or the necessity or the... and I'm not arguing with that, I just want to know what it is.
	Like you want to know my motivations in those areas?
	Well, what's keeping you together?
	I would say the bond that we've formed has messed up as it is.
	How we... What bond?
	She doesn't listen to you at all.
	She listens to strangers.
	She stops having sex.
	What?
	I mean, you've told her repeatedly over the years how to fix herself.
	You've got experience.
	Your mother told you.
	What bond?
	She doesn't listen to you.
	She listens.
	It's just selective, which means it doesn't... No, no, no.
	She doesn't listen about the important things, the things you need, right?
	Right?
	I mean, you talked to your parents that had some beneficial impact, although I certainly don't think they went nearly as far as they should, but let's leave that aside.
	I assume you've suggested that she open things up with her family and tell the truth about her experience?
	Okay, she doesn't listen to that either, right?
	She goes and talks to the crazy brother.
	So, I'm trying to understand this bond.
	I mean, she doesn't seem to listen to you about anything.
	Important.
	And that's fine!
	Look, she doesn't have to listen to you, of course, right?
	She doesn't have to listen to you at all.
	But if she doesn't listen to you, then, in things that you have knowledge and experience in, right?
	Then she doesn't respect you.
	She's living a solo relationship while pretending to be in a couple.
	Like, being in a couple means you surrender your will, in part, to your partner.
	That's what being a couple is.
	I've said this even recently.
	Okay, so you've said all of this, and she's like, no, I'm going solo.
	I'm flying solo.
	And then you're like, but the bond!
	The bond!
	What bond?
	I'm going to make my own decisions about every important thing in my life, regardless of my partner's wisdom and experience.
	Okay, fine.
	Then why pretend to be a couple?
	But then she'd say, I'm not submitting to hers, either.
	And what are you not submitting to?
	For one, it would be the religiosity aspect, what's happening now.
	No, no, she banged you into leaving Jesus.
	Right?
	I mean, you're not Catholic, right?
	So she slept with you right away, told you she loved you within a couple of weeks, right?
	So the fact that she compromised her entire religious worldview to love bomb you and sex bomb you, It's not you rejecting religion because you weren't religious.
	It was her rejecting religion.
	So, okay, what else?
	I mean, that's those are the big ones, but there's...
	Oh, no, that was just one.
	What's another one we're in?
	I mean, if she's failing to submit to religion, she can't exactly criticize... When she's religious and she's failing... She's Catholic, she's failing to submit to Catholicism, and then she claims that you fail to submit to Catholicism when you're not even Catholic?
	That's ridiculous!
	So let's try another one.
	Yeah, this is a lot of what I say but it's And then...
	With her, it's... It comes down to... No, no, you said she's not... I don't know what it comes down to.
	You're taking me off into abstract land here.
	Okay.
	So, listen, there may be things... Sorry.
	You said that there are things... And, again, I'm not trying to catch you out.
	I just want to follow up on what you said.
	So, you said that there are things that you don't submit to her on, and religion is not one that counts.
	What's another one, if there is one?
	And maybe there isn't, I'm just curious.
	She says sometimes she doesn't feel heard.
	Yeah, that's abstract nonsense.
	I know.
	And usually that just means you're not agreeing with me, so what is a standard or moral or value That she holds that you respect that you're not going to submit to.
	That you don't submit to.
	I don't think there is.
	Okay.
	In what area of expertise does she tell you how to live and you reject it?
	And she's an expert at it.
	There is.
	Okay.
	And what do you love, treasure and respect about your girlfriend?
	I find her to be very loyal.
	She's kind-hearted.
	Loyal?
	What are you talking about?
	Oh my god, man, you're just driving me crazy here!
	Loyal?
	She won't listen to you about anything important!
	Loyal?
	What do you mean loyal?
	You gotta go to therapy.
	No, you gotta go to therapy.
	No, your mom says you gotta go to therapy.
	No, no, no!
	But... But loyal?
	I'm realizing now...
	Okay, so give me a conversation in the present, not a Hallmark card from four and a half years ago.
	What do you love, treasure, and respect?
	And I'm not saying there's nothing, obviously, I just want to know.
	What do you love, treasure, and respect about your girlfriend?
	What do you massively admire about her and so on?
	What I fear, if I keep going on my list, is under the guise that you've laid out, Well, she's not kind.
	Because what you're saying is, what you and your mother have said is that your lack of treatment for sexual abuse is causing massive unhappiness and instability in the relationship, right?
	Is that fair to say?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So you're saying your lack of treatment for sexual abuse is hurting me.
	And she's like, yeah, I choose to continue to hurt you rather than get treatment.
	So that's not kind.
	How dare you make it about me?
	Sorry?
	Or she'd say, how dare you make it about you?
	Okay, let's have that argument with her.
	So she says, how dare you make it about you?
	It's because I'm in this relationship, and I don't like getting hurt, and I don't like to see you hurting me, because that's bad for both of us.
	So if you say, how dare I have a perspective or an opinion in the relationship, what you're saying is I don't get to have any, say, perspective or opinion in this relationship, which means it ain't a relationship, honey.
	So, she's not kind, because she chooses to avoid treatment, thus continuing to hurt you and destabilize the relationship.
	She's not loyal, because loyalty has something to do with listening to people who give you good advice.
	What else?
	She's not honest, because she lies to her family continually by hiding the abuse.
	What else?
	I sort of just feel like I'm getting lined up, but... No, listen, I'm happy to hear contrary arguments, I just, you know, they've got to be rigorous.
	I would say she's hardworking, but under these parameters, she isn't.
	Well, hardworking is not a virtue.
	I mean, Hitler was hardworking and also hardworking.
	She works very hard to avoid telling the truth.
	She works very hard to avoid therapy.
	So, uh, okay.
	Hardworking.
	Okay.
	That, I guess that's a plus if it's aimed in the right direction.
	Okay.
	Which could be linked to being steadfast and resolve wrong or right.
	Um, she is.
	Sorry, I don't know what you mean.
	Once she's very fickle about, like I said, it changes with whatever frame of mind she's in, which is bad.
	But when she gets something like when she's saved this week, for example, she did the retreat.
	She got her absolution and now she's on.
	The straight and narrow, and... quote-unquote.
	Right, but it's externally generated.
	Right.
	Right.
	She didn't have an epiphany, she didn't have a... she's... her conscience has been imposed from the outside.
	I told her this, yeah.
	Okay.
	So what else She
	Like I said that I The parameters you added, none of what I have stated.
	Oh no, don't try that!
	It's not true.
	No, that's fine, be honest about it.
	I'm not disagreeing with you.
	But you think these are just parameters, like she has to be nine feet tall, right?
	I didn't just add random parameters.
	I asked you what you admired about her.
	You said things that aren't true, and I said this is opposed by the evidence, and I'm asking you for more.
	These aren't standards.
	Did I say a standard that she has to pass?
	I'm not disagreeing with you.
	I know, and I appreciate the honesty, but, you know, I gotta be blunt, right?
	I mean, that's what you're calling me for.
	You've got everybody around you to snowjob you if you want, but I'll try and be blunt and helpful as best I can.
	What do you love, respect, honor, and admire about your girlfriend?
	On top of what I already said, she's very affectionate, caring, attentive.
	Well, she's affectionate until you ask her to actually deal with her trauma that's hurting you.
	Right, but I... And it's, screw you, I'm loyal to my family.
	In that context, I'm more focused on her, though.
	I want her to get fixed for her, and in turn, incidentally, she... I won't be hurt.
	Oh, so here we get to the core.
	Right.
	That's the core.
	You're there to serve her.
	You're incidental.
	Like, you're there to serve your family.
	You're incidental.
	You went mute with your family, now you're going mute with her.
	Honey, it's about you.
	I just want it to be about you.
	I just want you to be- I'm- I'm so self-sacrificial that I don't care if I- I just need you- I want you to get better for you, for you, for you, right?
	I guess this- or not I guess.
	This is likely an issue.
	I- I told her- this week, and I told my parents this a while ago when we were having an issue.
	I said, I'm tired.
	Beyond tired.
	I'm exhausted.
	Sleep cannot fix what I feel.
	I cannot.
	Yeah, you're worn out because you're living for others.
	I can't change myself anymore to deal with other people's Failings and personality flaws and disorders.
	I've done it my whole life.
	Under, like I'm always, I have a goal, I'm always fighting.
	Get to the feelings brother, I can hear it in your voice.
	What's going on with the exhaustion?
	I just can't do it anymore.
	And did this hit you when your girlfriend came back from the retreat?
	Or has it been longer?
	It's been, it was before that.
	When did this first start to really rise in you?
	A couple months ago.
	Was there anything in particular happened or was it perhaps just the advent of the big 3-0 for your girlfriend?
	That was a part of it.
	But no, the big part was my batteries are just empty.
	And I have a lot.
	This year is going to be insane for me for work.
	Okay, so who recharges you?
	Who devotes themselves to you?
	Who works to meet your needs?
	She did.
	That's why I'm having the issue I'm having now is because now my My recharge, and before that, and I do, ultimately it's my responsibility.
	No, no, no, no.
	In a relationship, people have to feed you.
	Right, and she... Right, there has to be an exchange of mutual value, right?
	You don't just make stuff and hand it out to strangers for free or love... I mean, there has to be an exchange of value.
	You help them, they help you.
	You charge them, they charge you.
	Or you love them, they love you.
	You bring happiness to them, they bring happiness to you, right?
	So it's got to be reciprocal.
	But it sounds like you're just like a serf serving other people's preferences.
	I mean, I don't mean to sound harsh, maybe I'm wrong.
	Okay, so who works and sacrifices themselves to make you happy?
	Okay, so you're still in a position of being exploited just like you were as a kid.
	And your parents haven't done squat as far as restitution goes.
	I mean if they went to therapy eight years ago when you were 26 years old
	they'd say well it's been more than a quarter century we've been selfish let's
	make the next 20 years all about you.
	Thank you.
	you But they haven't done that.
	No, but there has been progress, it's just not as much as it should be.
	What do you mean, progress?
	Do you mean that they're taking less from you?
	That's progress?
	Hey!
	That guy who was stealing $10,000 a week from me, I've got him down to $2,000.
	This is huge progress!
	How about not stealing?
	How about paying it back with interest?
	Yeah, that's been my argument, but... Things have gotten better.
	They have improved.
	It's just...
	It hasn't been quite enough, and I think they would probably disagree with that.
	I'm not sure.
	Sorry, disagree with your assessment of the value of the relationship?
	Yes.
	What would it matter if they disagree?
	I mean, it's your perception.
	That's what they have to work with, right?
	I mean, if I say, can you imagine I'm at a restaurant, and I order a, I don't know, a very expensive meal, and I get some fatty piece of steak with bone all over it, and some raw potatoes, and I say, I'm not happy with this meal, and the waiter says, no, you're wrong.
	You're wrong, this is a great meal.
	What are you talking about?
	I'm not accepting that.
	It's like, what?
	No, I'm not happy with my meal.
	You're wrong!
	It's a great meal.
	You are happy with it.
	And if you're not happy with it, there's something wrong with you.
	Can you imagine?
	Yeah.
	So, what do you want out of this conversation?
	What would be the most helpful thing for you, do you think?
	Well, you've been... Because I'm here for you.
	I'm not here for me, or... Right?
	I'm here for you, and I want to invest as much as possible into you.
	And try and serve your needs as best I can.
	I'm trying to bring you a good meal.
	So, what do you need the most, do you think, that's the hardest to get from those around you that I might be able to help provide?
	Conviction.
	Okay.
	Conviction.
	Do you want to know how to get that?
	Two things, self-interest and standards.
	Okay, you're not here to serve your girlfriend.
	You're not here to serve your parents.
	You're not here to serve your extended family, brothers, sisters.
	You're not here to serve others.
	You're here to exchange value.
	Right?
	So, if you're not getting what you want out of a relationship, you say, I'm not getting what I want out of this relationship.
	Now, if the other person cares about you, what will they do?
	Either change or leave.
	Well, they'll talk with you about it, trying to sort of figure out what you need from the relationship, and, you know, if they can provide it.
	Now, if you say, I need empathy, and they say, well, I'm just a cold-hearted person, I can't give that to you, then they will set you free so that you can get what you need from somebody else.
	Does that make sense?
	That's what you said, change or leave, right?
	If you say, look, I need this, that and the other... Well, first of all, I mean, even having to bring that up is pretty bad, because the other person should be thinking about that, right?
	If you get a crap meal at a restaurant, they should know that it's a crap meal and they shouldn't serve it to you in the first place.
	Right, so trying to get a crap restaurant to reform, I don't know if you've ever seen the Gordon Ramsay, like, Kitchen Nightmare stuff.
	I mean, it doesn't really work usually.
	So, what's in it for you?
	Alright, so you were raised to serve other people's needs.
	And if you displease them, they beat you like some ape.
	And maybe if you please them, they gave you a couple of kibbles or whatever, but they're training you like a bunch of like a dolphin or something.
	Right.
	So they didn't focus on what you need and what's good for you and what's helpful to you.
	And sorry, go ahead.
	To answer that, um, growing up, I could take whatever it was.
	As long as I felt I was forwarding my own goals and.
	My ultimate love in life is flying.
	And if we want to talk about an addiction, it's... I'll do anything to do it.
	I bought an airplane ticket.
	I get that.
	And listen, I'm not trying to say you shouldn't love flying, but it's not... I know that you said that your parents were into that as well, along with the farming.
	But, I mean, let's be honest, right?
	I mean, it is getting as far away from people as humanly possible, right?
	Where you can have some peace.
	Okay, so in your relationship, let's just talk about your relationship with your girlfriend, right?
	How does she work to listen to and satisfy your needs and preferences?
	Because we already have a bunch of examples where she hasn't, like going to therapy and stuff, right?
	What does she do to really think about you and and work on making you happy and what you prefer and what works for you.
	Bye.
	She has made changes.
	I'll say, this needs to change.
	For example, substances.
	I need you to stop smoking marijuana.
	It's a red line.
	It has to happen.
	I need you to control alcohol intake.
	It has to happen.
	Okay, that's minimizing damage to you.
	I'm not talking about that.
	What am I talking about?
	Big things.
	No, those are big things.
	What am I talking about?
	Fundamentals.
	Nope.
	So this is reducing damage to you.
	What am I talking about?
	In terms of... No, in terms of like, okay, but how does... things that benefit you, not things that do less damage to you.
	Things that she thinks about on her own, comes up and says, you know, I've really been thinking about this in your life, and I'm going to do this, that, and the other to make it better for you.
	Of her own accord.
	She'll come over and do things like clean up my yard, or when I'm out working, or my house, and she's doing it to help me and please me, and I deeply appreciate that kind of stuff.
	I'll come home, supper's made, and we have a nice time.
	It's she'll do that kind of stuff all the time, or when something's bothering me, I'll tell her about it.
	And she'll say, okay, I'll, I'll think about that.
	I'll talk to you about it later.
	And then she'll bring it up later and we'll talk about it and it's good.
	We'll come to a resolution, whether it's followed or not.
	And I guess that's what, what's important.
	Um, yeah, she's things like that.
	I assume your yard doesn't need cleaning up too often, right?
	Oh, Steph, it's, I got 40 acres of hundred year old trees.
	It's stuff's always falling down.
	I got eight acres of grass just in my main yard.
	There's about 40 in total that needs to be mowed every two weeks.
	Like it's, it's nuts.
	My, my yard's a full-time job itself.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	So she's helping with that.
	Yeah.
	And I really appreciate it.
	It's, and, And it's just things like that.
	She enjoys it and she's... Ah, so she enjoys it.
	What about things that are more preferable to you, but less preferable to her?
	Does she work on those things as well?
	Not as much as I'd like.
	She knows they're an issue.
	she just she can't seem to overcome the barrier of the emotion of the issues
	and i don't know how to help her breach that barrier Well, no, you do.
	I mean, you do go to therapy, right?
	I mean, you know exactly how to help her, which is to convince her to go to therapy, right?
	And what I struggle with is you try to help people, and as I've heard from you many times, you cannot help people who are unwilling to help themselves.
	Well, she's resistant to it, right?
	Okay, so she enjoys cleaning up the yard, and she does that, and that's not nothing, that's helpful, I get that, that's good.
	But in terms of things that would actually help you at an emotional level, she'll listen to strangers, but not you, right?
	She'll listen to the retreat... In her mind, she doesn't consider a priest to be a stranger, that's a... No, but, sorry, is this her regular priest?
	Like, is this the priest that she goes to church every Sunday?
	The one at retreat.
	I get that.
	and it's not her priest now. Okay, so it's not her priest.
	I don't quite understand it, but they can swap them around, they move priests around every few years. I have suspicions
	why, but...
	It's... I just hate the whole thing. I just hate it.
	I get that. I get that.
	Right. Now, if your future kids get to choose their mother of all the women you could possibly get together with,
	would your future kids choose your girlfriend?
	I think so, if she realizes her potential.
	No, no, no, no, no.
	There's no if.
	You've been with her for five years.
	What do you mean, if?
	No, they wouldn't.
	Right.
	So, listen, look, if you don't want to have kids, I mean, do what you want, right?
	I wouldn't, you know, it doesn't seem like a wise thing to be in a relationship with someone who doesn't listen to you about important things you know about and have wisdom in.
	But, you know, if you don't want to have kids, it's your life, right?
	If you want to have kids, though, you can't do what you want.
	The whole point of having kids is you don't get to do what you want anymore, because now it's about the kids, right?
	Yep, and that's, I understand that.
	Right.
	I don't know that you do.
	Sorry, I mean, to be perfectly frank, because if you did... What gives you that impression?
	Because you're torn.
	I mean, does this come down to should I stay or should I go?
	I mean, I don't want to be blunt, right, but maybe, does it, is it come down to that?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So, that's why I'm trying to give you the pluses and the minuses, right?
	But, fundamentally, it comes down to your kids.
	She comes with unrepentant child abusers, brother.
	She comes, package deal, massive praise for unrepentant, brutal child abusers.
	Okay?
	That's who she comes with.
	Can you morally introduce into the life of your future children a whole package deal
	full of dozens of unrepentant child abusers?
	I couldn't sleep at night so no.
	Right.
	And that's what I mean when I say, I don't understand.
	I mean, look, I understand it's a difficult situation, but it's also a difficult situation that you entirely put yourself into, right?
	I mean, there are all these red flags.
	I'm equally as culpable, yeah.
	I'm sorry?
	I'm equally as culpable.
	Well, I mean, that's why I asked you earlier how long have you been listening to me, right?
	I feel like I've let you down in that sense.
	No, no, no, forget that.
	I mean, I appreciate that, but I mean, I say forget that because I'm not trying to make you feel guilty.
	What I'm trying to say is, did you ever think of doing a call-in show five years ago?
	Oh, Steph, I met this great girl, but man, you know, she slept with me right away, she told me she loved me after a couple of weeks, and she's the untreated victim of decade-plus sexual abuse, and she praises her parents.
	Did you want to call me?
	I'm free!
	I'm free!
	Right?
	So, I mean, do you think I would have taken that call?
	I think so.
	Right.
	And listen, I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have.
	I mean, I think it might have been helpful.
	But why didn't you call?
	It's funny because people a lot of times... Steph, it's a real disaster.
	Oh man, I'm five years into this relationship.
	I'm totally embedded.
	Help, right?
	I didn't want to be that guy, but here I am.
	The help guy.
	I'm in a mess.
	No, no, you are the help guy.
	You're just helping a much worse situation guy.
	Yeah.
	Okay, so why...
	Wouldn't you call me five years ago?
	I mean, maybe it never even crossed your mind, right?
	You listen to all these call-in shows.
	Wow, boy, these people really need some help, don't they?
	Hey, think I'll date the untreated sexual abuse victim who love-bombs me right away.
	And that's why I listened.
	I would try to put myself into whoever you were counselling, and apparently it didn't work out.
	Why?
	Did it cross your mind to call?
	Trying to remember back then.
	Just, I mean, if you, I mean, you probably would remember.
	And again, I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing.
	I'm, I'm always just kind of curious.
	I don't think it did because I, I just thought you, you probably have a thousand people a day, but you got back to me pretty quick.
	I was surprised, but maybe you wouldn't.
	I should have tried.
	It's what it comes down to.
	Now do you know why you didn't?
	Because I wouldn't have entered into it Because you don't want to impose.
	Because imposing got the shit beaten out of you as a kid.
	But by saying, I don't want to impose, you're also kind of saying, I don't want to exist, which is why you're exhausted in your mid-thirties.
	Right.
	Oh, I don't want to impose on Steph.
	Would I rather have had the conversation five years ago or now?
	Because you weren't thinking about my preferences.
	My preference is to have the conversation five years ago.
	Because philosophy is about prevention, not cure, right?
	You don't wait to have a heart attack to call a nutritionist, right?
	Your nutritionist would be like, wow, I wish you'd called me five years ago.
	Could have designed a diet plan.
	You wouldn't even be having a heart attack.
	That would have been way better.
	I should have known better then.
	Well, you did know better.
	Because you couldn't universalize it, right?
	This is the philosophical aspect and none of this is criticism, I'm just pointing out the patterns, right?
	So you found value in all the people who called in, right?
	So they imposed, quote imposed, and you got value out of that.
	But you didn't want to add to that value by being part of a call-in To help millions of other men figure out red flags.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	No, I don't think you get this one yet.
	Oh, I... No, I don't think you know, because I know when you get it.
	This is a really deep one.
	Okay.
	You say you didn't want to impose, but that was really selfish.
	Because if you had called five years ago, Millions of men over time, and women, would have heard a two hour conversation about red flags, and you could have saved millions of men, or hundreds of thousands of men, from making really bad decisions.
	But you didn't.
	You could have saved yourself!
	for making a really bad decision if that's what it was and I did ask if you would have gone out with a girlfriend if you knew them what you know now and you said no so not only would you have prevented yourself from making a bad decision but you would have helped hundreds of thousands of other people avoid bad decisions avoid getting enmeshed in relationships that are dysfunctional and maybe getting
	married and maybe having kids you would have helped hundreds of thousands of children
	I didn't think like that and I'm not feeling very good about it
	So and I'm not trying to make you feel bad, but what I'm saying is
	remember I said That
	standards and self-interest, right Right
	You are withholding yourself from the people around you because you're very angry at them
	Bye.
	you Because you feel, I just tell you straight up, because you feel exploited.
	And you are!
	Has not imposing any moral or self-knowledge standards on your girlfriend helped her or not?
	Of me imposing some things on her?
	Has it helped?
	Well, imposing, like, listen, you've got to get to therapy.
	I can't be in a relationship with somebody who's got this much trauma who won't get help with it.
	You've got to.
	And, by the way, you've got to talk to your family.
	I'm not going to spend a moment around your family because they presided over a decade plus sexual abuse of you.
	Right, so if you'd had standards and self-interest, because you say you want to help her, right?
	Okay, so... She needs standards.
	She needs someone to stand up for her.
	And you're not doing that.
	You're just trailing after her, bleating that you want to help.
	She's told me I'm... I'm the only one who's ever cared.
	Well, of course she's gonna try and infect you with oneitis.
	And that's a form of chain enslaving you out of guilt and obligation to staying with her.
	You're the only one who's never betrayed me.
	Okay, so now I'm going to exploit you, and you can't stand up for your... No, I know, but you're the only one who's ever cared about me.
	Okay, so now, if you leave... Right?
	She's going to fall apart, according to this, right?
	So she's... Obligation.
	And if she genuinely believes that the only person who's ever cared about you, then she should listen to your advice!
	So, if...
	You know, if I say to my dentist, you're the only person who's ever cared about my oral health, but I'm never going to do what you suggest, it doesn't make any sense at all, right?
	So she's not saying that because she believes it, she's saying that to change you.
	She knows that you have a strong sense, an almost catastrophic sense of obligation to others and a lack of assertion, right?
	So she knows that about you, she knows that about your childhood, and she's willing to work those levers.
	I mean, does she know, she knows of course that your parents didn't listen to you as a kid, right?
	Oh yeah.
	Okay, so she's not listening to you as an adult.
	I think, and maybe you agree or disagree, but these things can be subconscious.
	Like it's not a conscious... Who cares?
	What on earth does that matter?
	It still happened.
	Well, A, it still happens, and B, it stays subconscious.
	Why?
	Because she's not listening to you.
	Because if she listened to you and went to therapy, what was unconscious would become conscious and she could deal with it.
	So the unconscious thing, what does that matter?
	If someone steals a plane and crashes it and says, well, I didn't know how to fly, does that mean that they get to walk off scot-free with no repercussions?
	No, because you don't get behind the cockpit, you don't get in the cockpit of a plane without knowing how to fly it!
	So the unconscious thing, what, it doesn't matter.
	She's, I mean, she's almost 30, she's fully responsible for that which remains unconscious, especially because she's been around a guy who's been into self-knowledge for close to 20 years, because you went into therapy in your mid-teens, right?
	Okay, so she's... No, no, in my mid-20s, not teens, no.
	I'm sorry, I thought you said you were fifteen or sixteen or seventeen.
	Okay, I'm sorry if I got that wrong.
	No, it's twenty-fifteen, sixteen, seventeen.
	Oh, my apologies.
	Okay, okay, got it, got it.
	That makes, actually, that makes a bit more sense now.
	I appreciate that.
	Okay, so for ten years, right?
	You've been into self-knowledge and all of that, right?
	Did you ever listen to what I do?
	Steph, I will be honest.
	Most women, or not most, I'm sorry.
	No, no, I'm just talking about your girlfriend, don't blend her into most women, don't give that defense.
	And the few women that I've showed your videos to, they'll watch a bit, and for whatever reason it is, They just don't do more.
	Sorry to interrupt.
	I've been a fairly significant influence on your life, and your girlfriend doesn't want to learn anything about what I talk about, right?
	Is that right?
	Yeah, or anybody else I listen to.
	But I think what it comes down to is, okay, I listen to this.
	It takes time, which is a BS cop.
	I'm sorry, she can't listen to podcasts while she's clearing you guard?
	It's an incidental.
	It's, and I, yes, exactly.
	Or when she's at, she has a job in which she's listening to stuff all day and she'd rather, you know, listen to true crime garbage than, than self-knowledge, which she has done, but it's, it's, I think the reason why she doesn't do it is because she doesn't want to be in a state of pain.
	Listening to things, like, introspecting on things constantly, because it brings it up, and then she doesn't want to deal with it, and then she train wrecks, and it brings up all her old behaviors, and she just... because she doesn't know how to deal with it, because she hasn't gone to therapy, so she can't.
	Well, and look, she's not going to therapy.
	She's not going to therapy.
	Right?
	And you staying in the relationship is also shielding her from that, because she gets to continue to have a, quote, relationship without fixing herself.
	You're not helping her.
	You're not helping her.
	You're addicted.
	You're not helping her and you have this sense of obligation.
	And you've wound yourself into her life.
	You've become the bedrock for an unstable woman.
	What do you think is going to happen if you break up with her?
	What's your worst fear?
	In regards to me or her?
	Her.
	That she goes off the rails and starts her old patterns and Okay, so what's the worst case scenario?
	You break up with her.
	What happens that is playing out in your mind that's the worst case?
	What happens?
	What does she do?
	That she's crushed and it derails her life.
	No, no, analogies, analogies.
	What does she do or not do?
	What happens physically?
	What does she do empirically that you can see?
	If you wanted two things, she goes off the rails, now starts drinking, smoking marijuana again.
	Okay, so she returns to her addictions.
	What else?
	Or she just numbs out.
	And what does that mean?
	Just carry on.
	Every day, just numb out.
	Go to work.
	Come home.
	Repeat.
	Okay, so you're not worried about suicidality, you're not worried about self-destructive behavior, you're not worried about any of that.
	Is that right?
	She told me When she was at retreat the first two nights, she was really struggling with things.
	And she mentioned feeling suicidal, and it was so bad.
	And I don't... I know people throw that word around, and I hate it.
	Because the people who are serious about it just do it.
	People who talk about it aren't usually the ones who are Well, I mean, I wouldn't necessarily cling to that, but again, I'm no expert.
	But anyway, go ahead.
	So she mentioned that.
	Is that a fear I have?
	Yes.
	In the back of my mind, I don't think it's a huge possibility, but I mean, it's a it's it's there and it maybe it would be incidental.
	Maybe she Gets in a car, messed up.
	Right, right, right.
	Yeah, self-destructive behavior.
	Maybe she goes and plays with some dangerous guy or something, right?
	Very good self-destructive behavior, yes.
	Do you know, on her retreat, do you know if she told them about her childhood history?
	I didn't ask.
	You didn't ask?
	I don't think so, because it... I didn't ask because I knew the answers.
	Almost certainly no, because she never... I should ask her, because... I just can't see it, because it's such a painful thing for her that it comes up in rare occasion, and she was there to atone for sins of the last five, six years.
	And it's, it's a mess.
	Like I know it's, she should have brought it up.
	I don't know what, I don't think church has the tools to deal with these kinds of things.
	I don't think they deal with them at all.
	I think when these issues are raised to a priest, it just gets hushed.
	Like there's no investigation.
	We're really theorizing here and I want to make sure that we stay on you.
	Okay.
	Um, It just, I mean, to me it seems odd that, I mean, she's got some serious problems, she goes away to a spiritual retreat and comes back, but don't have sex with your boyfriend.
	I mean, that's their answer to everything, is, well, just don't do it.
	Well, no, no, it's not.
	No, it's not.
	Come on.
	I mean, I get that there's criticisms to be made of Catholicism, but saying that cross your legs is the only thing they have to offer, that's not fair.
	No, no, it's not the only thing, it's just, but I'm just saying the modality of, well, just don't do it.
	Well, the don't do it could be stop lying to your family about the abuse you suffered.
	Stop covering it up.
	But that's not a tenet that the church will... No, it absolutely is.
	Yeah, no, it absolutely is.
	Thou shalt not bear false witness.
	But I don't think that they would consider that to be bearing false witness.
	Well, again, we're theorizing about theological conversations we don't have any knowledge of on the other side of the country.
	So I don't want to spend too much time on that.
	I'm just saying that I mean Jesus did say he's come to set daughter against mother and child against parent and right?
	And don't bear false witness and tell the truth and whatever you do to the least among you so do you also do to me and don't suffer people to harm children and right?
	So Jesus was there to stand for the protection of children and don't lie.
	So it's pretty easy case to make as far as I can see.
	I'm just so if I were to bring this this particular topic up. So, for me to put that into words, I
	would have a hard time explaining how withholding the truth or not addressing the issues and
	the truth could be considered bearing false witness. Can you just reiterate that for me,
	please?
	Well, if someone has sinned against you and you withhold knowledge from them of their
	sin, you're damning them to hell. Right? Because you're not giving them the feedback that they've
	sinned. Right?
	So your girlfriend went on the spiritual retreat and they told her, you've sinned, right?
	So they would save her soul.
	Presiding over a household of child rape is sinning, isn't it?
	Oh, I would think so.
	Okay, so by withholding the knowledge of her parents' immorality from her parents, She is damning them to hell, because they don't get the feedback that they need to repent, which is what your girlfriend got when she went on the spiritual retreat.
	You're doing wrong, you need to change your behavior, you need to repent.
	Well, the exact same principle that they put on her, she has to put on her parents.
	I mean, her brother literally went mad, perhaps from guilt, I don't know.
	It's a good chance, yeah.
	So, she's withholding Feedback of mortal sins, my god, presiding over a household of sibling child rape and sexual assault is about as bad as things get.
	Oh, it's just, it's, it's the worst.
	Yeah, so she is not telling her parents the evils they did, so they sail on without repentance.
	Without repentance, where do they go?
	To hell forever.
	She doesn't believe a word of any of this stuff!
	That's what I tell her.
	Well, you didn't tell her in this way, right?
	Because you said you didn't know how to tell her.
	I did.
	I did yesterday, actually.
	Oh, you told her that she's damning her parents to hell by withholding the knowledge of her sin from her?
	You don't believe a word of what you're saying.
	No, no, but you gotta prove it, right?
	You can't just say that, right?
	So, if withholding... She says, I'm so glad that they told me about my sin so I can reform.
	It's like, great, okay, good.
	Then go talk to your parents.
	Oh, no, I can't do that.
	Okay, then it's nonsense!
	Oh, it's going to be one hell of a... But tell me if I'm wrong.
	You're not.
	Her parents did the most grievous sins imaginable.
	No, you're completely right.
	And she's not telling them, she's withholding the knowledge of their sin from them, which damns them to hell forever.
	She praises them!
	So the idea that she's into sin and repentance and redemption, like, come on, it's nonsense.
	I know that.
	I tell her that.
	Okay, so she but she doesn't listen So you have once again you're talking to people who don't
	listen once Once again, you're struggling to fix people who won't be fixed.
	Once again, you have no needs.
	You're there to serve others.
	I mean, are you going to spend the rest of your life doing this?
	I can't.
	Well, you can.
	Lots of people do.
	Suck it up.
	Muscle up.
	Move on.
	Get some more coffee in you.
	And that's been the modality to this point.
	So you're just... I mean, I hate to say it, but you're just bleating off to people who don't listen.
	And that's your repetition, right?
	As a kid, you want your parents to be better.
	They're not better.
	Then they go to therapy, but they still don't work to protect you.
	And you want your... you want your girlfriend to be better, but she doesn't listen.
	In fact, she praises those who enabled her repeated rape as a child and rolls her eyes when you tell her to tell the truth.
	She's aligned with evil and opposes virtue.
	I'm like, I'm sorry, that's just the empirical facts as I see them.
	Tell me if I'm wrong.
	She praises those who presided over the household where she was raped for 10 plus years as a child.
	She praises them, but the moment you say, go see a therapist, she won't listen to you at all.
	So she's just aligned with evil.
	She praises evil and attacks good, and rolls her eyes at good, and scorns good.
	I mean, tell me if I'm wrong.
	So what are you doing?
	I'm trying to blow this weird fog out of your brain.
	What are you doing?
	She praises people who presided over a household of child rape.
	She praises them, and loves them, and supports them, and wants them in her life, and wants them in your life, and wants them in her children's life.
	What are you doing?
	But she cleans my yard.
	Fuck, pay 50 bucks, someone can clean the yard.
	What are you doing?
	No, you're you're absolutely right Now she's come back all holy roller which is just It's mind-boggling but yeah I just some people are just I can't remember if if you would ascribe to this belief but That 80% of people are incapable of true change.
	Don't, don't, no, don't care.
	I'm not talking statistics.
	I'm talking you and your girlfriend.
	But you continuing to date her when she aligns with evil is not helping her.
	No.
	You're using her to feel better about yourself.
	You're using her for sex.
	You're using her because she's pretty.
	You're using her so you don't feel alone.
	You use her so you feel like you have some kind of connection.
	But you're not helping her!
	So how do I truly, then?
	How do you truly what?
	Help her.
	Oh no.
	Oh my god.
	There is none.
	So the constant is you have to help her?
	That's the constant, like no matter what?
	Even if she doesn't listen?
	Even if she only listens to strangers on the other side of the country?
	Even if she only listens to her parents and praises them?
	Your job is still to help her?
	She's already told you exactly who she is.
	She's told you she's not gonna change.
	She told you she praises evil and scorns good.
	Help her?
	What are you talking about?
	Why is it your job to help people?
	How about you date someone who doesn't need fixing?
	You keep buying these broken down cars.
	I can never get anywhere.
	I can't even get them out of the garage.
	I spend my whole time working on them and they fall apart again.
	I'm so frustrated.
	I just need to get somewhere in a car.
	Okay, how about you buy a car that works?
	Good point.
	And I could make excuses about how It's a little more difficult out here, but in the end it doesn't matter.
	Is it more difficult than this?
	It's up there.
	If you care about her, let's say it doesn't work out, right?
	I don't know.
	You can talk to her about these things.
	Let's say it doesn't work out.
	You burned up half her fertility window.
	Or a third or whatever, right?
	Depends, yeah, 25 to 35, you've burned up half of that if she wouldn't have settled down earlier, right?
	By stringing her along without making a commitment, are you showing any caring for her?
	No?
	It's very selfish.
	See, the people who are like, well, I just want to help others, and I want to be there for them, I want to support them, and so on, they don't see their own dark side of that.
	And this is what I'm trying to show you, is I don't want you to feel like a victim.
	Like, there's a dark side to what you're doing.
	My intentions to her were, well, I'm with this woman because I need to help her.
	No, I wanted, I want to marry, well, and have children, but I mean, we've gone through the obvious issues in that.
	But that was at the start, and then all these red flags come up.
	No, you're not with her because you want to help her.
	I guarantee you that.
	That's the bullshit smiley face on a very dark hole.
	You're not with her because you want to help her.
	I didn't say that.
	No, I'm with her because I wanted these things from her.
	Ultimate marriage.
	I mean, yeah.
	You may have a cover story that you just want to help her.
	Because you just said, OK, if I can't help her by doing this, how do I help her?
	Right?
	So you'll forgive me if I think you might think you want to help her.
	But you don't.
	That's not the reason I entered, though, the relationship.
	How do you know?
	I mean, the reason you entered the relationship is she's hot and would have sex with you.
	It wasn't because of her personal virtues, was it?
	I've never engaged in that kind of behavior before.
	Why would I start at 29?
	When I'm with women, I start with the intention of, I'm going This could be the real possibility of getting married and to sleep around.
	I didn't say sleep around.
	Did I say sleep around?
	No, no.
	What I'm trying to get at is you say I approached her and I started because... You started the relationship because she was hot and would have sex with you, not because of her personal virtues.
	Unless she was a very virtuous woman five years ago and you made her dysfunctional and suicidal or half suicidal.
	Right?
	Okay, so was she a more virtuous woman five years ago?
	Is she a virtuous woman now?
	Does she align with virtue?
	Does she stand up for what's right?
	Does she oppose evil?
	Does she... right?
	All of that.
	Does she do that?
	No.
	Okay.
	So, if she wasn't a more virtuous person five years ago, and she's not a particularly virtuous person right now, then logically, logically syllogistically, you're not with her for her virtues.
	If you're not with her for her virtues, what are you with her for?
	because she's sexy and attractive and... I... it's a... it's a combination of both and until...
	Sorry, of both what?
	of my perceived virtue of her and the physical and carnal aspect.
	Okay, how long after you met her did you have sex?
	Thanks.
	Within the first week.
	Right.
	Did you say, whoa, whoa, no, no, no, come on, we gotta get to know each other.
	No, I was being... I was being stupid too.
	No, you see, you're just giving yourself an excuse there, right?
	I wasn't thinking.
	No, no, you're just giving yourself another excuse.
	That's giving yourself an absence when you made a choice.
	Why did you have sex with a woman you barely knew, when having sex that early is a mark of severe dysfunction
	for women in particular.
	You didn't know her sexual history, you hadn't had an STD panel, you didn't know her family
	that well, you didn't know her friends, you didn't know anything really other than what
	No empirical evidence of anything.
	No, you're right.
	I think at the time I was at a stage of burnout.
	I just didn't care.
	But at the same time... You were burned out, she gave you dopamine through sex.
	And affection.
	And love-bombing.
	And listen, I sympathize.
	You're susceptible to that.
	Because you were starved for love as a child.
	So affection is like a drug to you.
	Which is exactly what your family should have warned you about eight years ago when they started going to therapy and were aiming to make restitution.
	They just don't have that level of comprehension.
	Oh, gosh.
	Honestly, I don't want to hang up on anyone, but I swear to God, if I get another fucking excuse from you for everyone, I'm tempted.
	I'm sorry.
	Oh, but they don't have!
	They can't achieve!
	Blah, blah, blah!
	No, it's bullshit.
	It's bullshit!
	You're just making up excuses for people.
	And you know what that means?
	If you make up excuses for others, how does that impact you the most?
	It keeps happening.
	You make up excuses for yourself.
	I was stupid.
	I wasn't thinking.
	I was this.
	I... Stop making excuses!
	Give people responsibility.
	Give your girlfriend responsibility.
	She's responsible for not going to therapy.
	Give your mother responsibility.
	She's responsible for not protecting you as a child or as an adult.
	Give yourself responsibility.
	You chose sex over self-knowledge, and then you're complaining that your girlfriend doesn't choose self-knowledge.
	It's... You chose... dopamine over virtue, and then, well, it's funny, my girlfriend pursues a kind of hedonistic lifestyle of avoiding pain and pursuing pleasure.
	That was the foundation of your relationship!
	How dare you accuse her of what you instigated!
	Well, she just avoids negative feelings and just pursues the positive things that are easier in the moment, like I did when I first got together with her.
	That's the foundation of your relationship, is a kind of hedonism.
	And then you're like, well, but she won't go to therapy.
	I know.
	You modeled hedonism, and then my gosh, she's kind of hedonistic.
	Imagine that.
	Imagine!
	How dare you criticize her for everything you've manifested!
	It's... Am I wrong?
	You made this relationship.
	You founded this on... Dopamine over virtue.
	Feel-goods over being-goods.
	And I sympathize with that.
	I'm not calling you a bad guy for doing it.
	But don't lecture your girlfriend on taking the hard road!
	When you're only with her because you took the easy road of avoiding your own anxiety or depression or negative feelings by jumping into a physical love-bomb relationship.
	How dare you follow feel-good hormones instead of having actual standards of self-knowledge, honey?
	It's, I mean, the fact that you did it, hey man, I get it, I understand, I sympathize, but my god, you have no right to lecture, do you?
	I don't think I have, really.
	And you're still in this relationship because you're addicted.
	And she's in her relationship with her parents because she's addicted.
	And you aren't expecting actual protection from your parents because you're addicted, right?
	It's all of the emptiness of neglect and isolation and abuse that has you cling to things without standards, because you can't afford standards, because if you had standards as a kid, you'd have been left to the fucking wolves in the woods.
	You can't afford to have standards.
	Standards equals isolation.
	Standards equals loneliness.
	Standard equals genetic death, which is true throughout most of our evolution.
	That's why we evolved this way, right?
	To have any standards?
	Imagine having some standards of rationality, objectivity, and philosophy in some medieval squat... shit-squatting village.
	I wrote about that in my novel Just Boar.
	Try having those standards.
	See what happens.
	We evolved to abandon standards for the sake of proximity.
	That's how we reproduce.
	I get that.
	So I sympathize, and I'm not at all calling you a bad person for doing it.
	At all!
	I mean, be gentle and understanding with yourself.
	But the fact that you're lecturing others and trying to help others without seeing—you know, the Bible?
	Why are you talking about the piece of dust in your brother's eye and ignoring the giant log in your own?
	I've recognized that in myself before and I didn't, I just stopped dating.
	I just didn't, I didn't engage with anybody because I, I knew if I'm not doing the things I want myself and this comes partly from you.
	Okay.
	We need to stop here.
	We need to stop here because I want to go back because this is important because you, you're still viewing your girlfriend as a victim.
	All right.
	You said early on, and again, I'm not trying to catch you out, I'm just verifying because I want to make sure I got things right.
	You said early on that you talk, you know, night and day about your life, your childhoods, your dreams, your whatever, when you first got together, right?
	Okay.
	So she knew that you had a desperate need for affection, right?
	I think so.
	And vice versa.
	I mean, that would be the obvious thing, right?
	You were abandoned and yelled at and hit as a kid, right?
	To the point where you went monk mode, right?
	You went silent, right?
	So she knows that you have a great hunger for affection and a great vulnerability and susceptibility to affection, right?
	Yeah.
	And what does she do?
	Keeps doing it.
	I love you.
	You're the greatest.
	You're everything to me.
	You're the one.
	She's just hammering those buttons, man.
	When people share their vulnerabilities with you, they give you great power.
	It's very true, yes.
	You gave her great power over you by telling her your vulnerabilities.
	And how did she handle that power?
	Suboptimally.
	How did she handle that power?
	Badly.
	She abused her power over you.
	She played you like a harpsichord.
	Conscious, unconscious, don't care, doesn't matter.
	You said, I'm incredibly susceptible to displays of affection.
	I love you!
	Let's have lots of sex!
	Nope, you're 100% right.
	I guess.
	I guess.
	My next question would be, how do you break the addiction?
	And seemingly I have a lot of them.
	And do it in a way in which... Okay, but it's addiction to what?
	What are you addicted to?
	Well, as you say, like affection and... But it's not real affection?
	But the chemicals are there.
	Only if you believe it.
	Meaning?
	Well, I mean, if you are full of self-knowledge and awareness and so on, and some woman with a history of massive abuse throws herself at you and wants to, I love you, it would be repulsive.
	Because it would be a manifestation of abuse and exploitation and manipulation.
	Right?
	Because you would see the hand of sexual abuse guiding her to your bed.
	That the value I have to bring, why does anybody ever care of me?
	Sexual!
	and you would not participate in that trauma, you wouldn't have sex with that wound.
	You wouldn't participate in that trauma.
	So what are you addicted to?
	It's not affection.
	Feeling wanted You're addicted
	you To supporting other people's trauma avoidance.
	Because if you'd said to your girlfriend back in the day, she wants to sleep with you, she wants to love you, you'd be like, whoa, okay, this is not coming from a healthy place, what's really going on?
	And she would have fallen apart, right?
	She would have had one of these meltdowns, and right?
	She was having sex with you to avoid that, right?
	So, you are programmed to support other people's avoidance of trauma.
	That's what you did.
	That's what you had to do with your parents, right?
	Well, there's something I could tell you that I think you'd have a field day with, but... I'm all ears.
	Like, growing up, I spent a lot of time around my grandparents, too.
	They're involved in the business, they live close by.
	I spend weekends there all the time.
	I get to see their dysfunctions.
	They get to put their dysfunctions onto me, their abuse too.
	And part of it was, maybe it wouldn't appear outwardly damaging at the time, but like a sense of codependency with both my grandmothers and my mother.
	We could commiserate kind of in our misery about The wrongs of the patriarchs in the family.
	Oh yeah, all the victims.
	And so this is the excuses, right?
	The excuses are coming from a place in childhood that if you didn't give people excuses, you feared they would kill you.
	And I'm not kidding about that.
	You feared they would abandon you, neglect you, fail to protect you, fail to feed you, fail to guard you.
	Yeah, just throw me to the wolves, essentially.
	Or just leave you behind, or not, you know, particularly care if you wandered towards the edge of a cliff, or towards traffic, or like... So you would die if you didn't support, like if you're having a stitch-and-bitch, right, a hen-session with your grandmothers and your mother, and if you said, you all chose these men, what are you talking about?
	Stop playing the victims.
	What would have happened?
	Bad things.
	Very bad things.
	So you're there, and listen, this is true for a lot of men and women too, right?
	And this is true of your girlfriend.
	You're there to support the delusions of others about their virtues, or their victimhood, or whatever.
	You're there to reinforce other people's aggression and self-pity.
	You're there to reinforce other people's delusions.
	Yeah.
	So you have to make excuses for them, or you'll die.
	It's a survival mechanism.
	To make excuses for people and to commiserate with their victimhood, right?
	So you participate in people's delusions, and that's the price of survival.
	And now, 16 years after you became an adult, you're still doing that, right?
	Because if you don't participate in your girlfriend's delusions about the virtues of her family, I mean, bad, very bad things happen, right?
	Yes.
	If you don't participate with your parents, About how they've fixed everything and, you know, they've made restitution and so on, if you were to say, listen man, how did you let me get involved with this crazy woman?
	They'd just blame you, right?
	Hey man, you're an adult, you chose, we were there, you could have said anything, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	See, this is what happens.
	Exploitive people always do the same goddamn thing.
	They say, I care about you, I'm there for you, I love you, and then when you say, how could you let me be abandoned?
	Like, how could you let me end up in this terrible situation?
	They say, hey man, you're an adult, you make your own choices!
	Right?
	So they say you owe them because they really, really care about you, and then when you point out that they fail to care about you, they say that you're not taking responsibility.
	It's like, OK, well if I'm just here to take my own responsibility, then we don't have a relationship.
	If I'm flying solo, don't pretend to be a co-pilot.
	If you're a co-pilot, you're responsible for how the flight goes.
	Look at me, working in some plane analogies for you there.
	Yeah.
	So, and of course, if you make excuses for everyone, which is the price of survival, I mean, think about, like, most freethinkers over the course of religious history.
	If they refuse to participate in the delusions of their society, or the priests, what happens?
	They go insane.
	Well, burnt at the stake, they're ostracized, they're thrown in prison, they're run out... I think the king is just a man with a funny hat!
	Well, welcome to the tower, kid!
	You get your head chopped off!
	Okay, but if we can apply that to my situation...
	I've been an integral part of my family.
	I still am, both relationally and in a business sense.
	I've devoted my whole life to my family and the farm.
	My name, most importantly, over my parents is to uphold my name.
	Sorry, your name over your parents?
	I don't follow that.
	My last name, the legacy of my ancestors and all Their blood, sweat and tears.
	That is my imperative, to honour that.
	By working hard.
	Committing myself to things that are bigger than me.
	Sorry, your legacy is to honour the people who neglected and abused you as a child?
	I'm sorry, is that?
	No, it's beyond them.
	Oh, your grandparents who also exploited and abused you.
	Sorry, I'm just trying to figure out, were there holy people back there who were just great with kids and it all just went to shit for no reason?
	And that's what it comes down to.
	These are patterns they started God knows when, 200 years ago or whatever.
	Millions of years ago.
	You see apes cuffing their kids for misbehaving or whatever, right?
	Okay.
	So, all right, go ahead.
	When I was in my early late teens, early twenties, I'm not having kids.
	Tell my mom, my grandma's right to their face.
	Nope, not happening.
	And they'd cry.
	They get extremely upset.
	And then I got older.
	I don't want to be a genetic dead end.
	Everything we've worked for, everything that's happened in the last, like, my family's farm since literally the dawn of recorded history, that's going to end with me?
	And I want kids.
	I see friends who have kids.
	Their life completely changes.
	And yes, it's hard, but a lot of them that I know, they seem happier.
	Oh, it's not hard with kids.
	Honestly, that's just a myth by the antinatalists.
	It's great fun with kids.
	But anyway, sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, when I do go down this road, I need to focus on more of your message because you have different opinions.
	It's like the people who say, oh, marriage is hard, but it's worthwhile.
	It's like, it's not hard.
	It's great.
	It's great fun.
	I mean, can you imagine being best friends with someone?
	Oh man, that relationship is really hard.
	Oh my gosh, so much conflict.
	But hey, we do go see the game once in a while.
	I don't... I'm trying to think of...
	Every single person I know of all ages, and in my family there's no divorce at all, but I can't think of one single solitary example where the wife and husband seem truly content in the manner of which I've heard you explain your relationship.
	Not one.
	Okay.
	I'm not sure what we're talking about here.
	Like, what's the point?
	It's just sickening.
	I'm... No, but this is the... You keep saying your family.
	This is not your family.
	This is your parents' family.
	You're just a kid.
	It's not your family.
	Your family is to come.
	It's your family of origin.
	That's the past.
	You can't reproduce with your parents.
	Your family is your future.
	And I don't know why you've got this bond with your parents' family.
	That's not your family, there's no future in that genetically, or kids, or... right?
	It's... You're not gonna marry your mother!
	So... It comes down to... I spent a lot of time with my grandparents as a child, and... Okay.
	That's why the bond's there, but... I'm still not sure what we're talking about.
	It's just, I... I have an in-sense... instilled sense of... of loyalty to...
	My last name, the things we've done.
	Okay, so you have loyalty to your parents' family and your grandparents' family?
	Yeah.
	As far back as... Okay.
	Do you have loyalty to the blood or the morals?
	I would say the morals.
	I don't agree.
	Because they were pretty terrible grandparents and parents, weren't they?
	There have been some abhorrent ones.
	Okay, so what do you... My God.
	What are you doing?
	I'm just making my head spin here!
	You've talked for, like, two hours about abuse and neglect, and then it's like, but no!
	And your grandparents' abuse and neglect and dysfunction and... But I'm bonded to the virtues!
	I need this.
	You're truly... You are breaking through.
	I know it's like pulling fucking teeth, but it's... Nah, pulling teeth ends!
	These just keep regrowing!
	Like a shark in fast-forward!
	Seven rows... It's sinking, and I'm gonna be... Okay, so are you loyal to the blood or the virtues?
	That's the question of philosophy!
	You want to be loyal to the virtues, but if the virtues are flawed and wrong, then it's... Look, your relationship with your family has got you to the age of 34 with a messed up relationship that's hanging by a thread with your girlfriend, right?
	You got no family of your own, you're not married, you got no independent career, you got no kids, and if you go through this breakup, I don't know whether you should or shouldn't, it comes down to, I don't know, whatever you choose, right?
	But if you go through this breakup, you've got probably two plus years of recovery before you're able to date again, which puts you in your late thirties, right?
	Mid to late thirties.
	So how's hanging with the family working out for you?
	And having a family of your own and all of that?
	How's that playing out?
	Not so damn good.
	Not so damn good, right?
	Now, your family haven't sat you down and said, like, six months into this relationship, what's going on?
	Are you going to marry her or what?
	A year and two relationship.
	My God, man, make a decision.
	Are you going to marry her or not?
	I mean, have they been nagging you to make a decision?
	No.
	Right?
	They're just letting you fucking fly along.
	Dum-de-dum, we're busy.
	Good luck, kid.
	We don't give you any feedback.
	We don't ask you any questions.
	They just watched you burn up half a decade of your life with no interference, right?
	But you're loyal to them!
	Where's their loyalty to you?
	Where's their concern for your happiness?
	Where's their feedback to you?
	Where's their wisdom?
	Where's their knowledge?
	Where's their virtue and their care and their love?
	But you work on their farm!
	When I think of the ultimate, what this means, Think of a best case scenario for the next 10 years worst case.
	And I know deep down what it means.
	All the dysfunction, the immorality, the aloofness.
	Okay, sorry, you're just like, fucking ten years, this, that, and the other.
	It comes down to one thing.
	Okay, let's say things don't work out with your girlfriend, you meet some great new wonderful woman, right?
	She's smart, she's virtuous, she's caring, she's thoughtful, and she just loves you to death, right?
	And then you say, hey, come join my family of origin.
	These are the people you're going to spend the next 40 years with.
	What does she do?
	Well, if she knows anything, I guess seeing everything, she'd run.
	Okay, these are going to be the grandparents who help raise your kids.
	These are the people you're going to live cheek-by-jowl with.
	These are the people that we're going to have to nurse when they get old.
	These are the people, blah, blah, blah, right?
	Is she signing up?
	Maybe.
	There's a good chance it's not.
	No, no.
	She's a good, strong woman from a very moral family.
	She's going to take advice from her family, and her family's going to come and meet your family, because that's what responsible families do, right?
	And they're going to cross-examine your family, and they're going to say, listen, we hear that there was some mistreatment of a potential son-in-law by you guys when he was a kid.
	Let's find out about that.
	Let's talk about that.
	Because that's a pretty significant thing to wet our gene pool into, right?
	No, I think they would talk.
	I've never met anybody who talks like that.
	No, no, I'm telling you, this is what virtuous people do.
	I know.
	Okay, so what's going to happen in that scenario?
	Your parents are going to blow up, freeze them out, get volatile, say how they're going
	to hit the roof, right?
	No, I think they would talk.
	At this point, they would.
	Okay, and then they'd say, okay, so help me understand how the family stood by why this
	guy burned up half a decade in a go nowhere relationship with a severe victim of child
	Like, help me understand.
	Like, we need to understand this, because you guys are going to be mentors to our grandchildren.
	To that one, I don't know.
	They'd probably say that it was my free will.
	Okay, so then they say, so you don't provide wisdom to your children.
	You just let them do whatever they want?
	Is that how you raised them?
	Oh no, we were real disciplinarians when they were little.
	It's like, okay, so you don't have your kids have free will.
	Well, he's an adult now.
	Okay, so then you have no more parental obligations.
	So why do you have any relationship at all?
	You're no longer parents because he's an adult.
	Do you think being a parent ends and you just don't have to give your kids advice anymore?
	Did your parents ever give you feedback on your business practices?
	Of course they do.
	Okay, so that's all bullshit.
	So what happens when your girlfriend's father vets your family?
	Well, it should go both ways, right?
	Of course, absolutely.
	Of course.
	I think he'd be approvatory.
	None of that would come up, Steph.
	It just wouldn't happen.
	No, no.
	It's being brought up by your potential girlfriend's family.
	Or her.
	How would it go?
	As of right now it would go bad.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, then, would they recommend that their daughter continue to date you with this volatile, defensive, aggressive, and potentially abusive family?
	So, that's your choice.
	Look, I'm not telling you what to do, I just want to give you the paths as I see it, right?
	If you remain wedded to your family of origin, You have to lower the expectations of the quality of woman you can attract.
	Which is what I've done.
	Okay, so then maybe your girlfriend is perfect for you because you remain loyal and she remains loyal to dysfunctional families of origin.
	So maybe this is... I'm just saying you can't have both a great girlfriend and loyalty to a dysfunctional family.
	You can't have both.
	I agree.
	So maybe you're in the right position.
	Maybe you should marry this woman and have kids and cross your fingers and this is where you live.
	I know this sounds like, oh no, this is just a reality, right?
	If you and your girlfriend want to stay loyal to dysfunctional people who, at least in my view, don't seem to care that much about you because they let you trundle on with these mistakes without intervening, OK, then maybe this is where you want to live.
	And you'll be a better parent than your parents were, but maybe you just want incremental, like you'll be 20% better, or 30% better, or 50% better, or whatever.
	And maybe with the loyalty, which I know comes with some pluses, and it's Emotionally and and biologically baked into our genetics or whatever, right?
	So you you have loyalty and you get to have as Grandparents to your children your family and the people who ran the child rape house That this is who you're gonna live your life with Now again, I know this sounds like I'm goading you into not I'm just saying look that's your choice I'm just trying to make your options.
	Free Will is about knowing the results of our choices, right?
	And I know this.
	I have known it.
	It's that I start making excuses for it.
	Well, if I did this, maybe it worked.
	Sure, and that's fine.
	And if you want to make excuses, then you get a life that needs excusing.
	I don't make excuses, so I have a life that doesn't need excusing.
	If you want to make excuses, you're going to end up with a life that needs excuses.
	Because making excuses is just lowering standards.
	And if you want to lower your standards, you can lower your... I mean, I'm not you.
	I can't tell you what to do.
	But I can tell you that if you lower your standards, you'll end up with a lower standard of life.
	So, if you want to make excuses, just be aware.
	I'm going to make excuses for everyone, including me.
	It's going to lower the quality of the person I'm with.
	It's going to lower the quality of my children's lives.
	And that's fine.
	That's something I accept.
	I mean, you can do whatever you want, just know what you're doing.
	I mean, outside of UPP violations, blah blah blah, right?
	But if you want to say, I'm gonna hang with the destructive or negative or whatever people because I'm gonna make excuses for them, fine.
	But then don't dare impose standards on your children.
	Right?
	If your children are into peer pressure, say, yeah, that makes sense.
	Yeah, go for it.
	If you're 12 and your friends are smoking drugs, yeah, take a toke, man.
	Peer pressure.
	That's what it's all about.
	Getting along.
	You just lower your standards until you feel comfortable.
	You know, they're drinking, they're having sex.
	Yeah, they're drunk, drunk.
	Yeah, whatever, right?
	Yeah, go for it.
	I mean, it's what I've done.
	I'm not going to be a hypocrite.
	It's just a race to the bottom.
	Well, it's just a race to the comfort level.
	This is what you grew up with, this is what you're comfortable with.
	I grew up in Trash Planet.
	Which can be the opposite.
	And I didn't want to stay there.
	You may choose to stay.
	Okay, I'm going to stay with this really fairly dysfunctional group and my father-in-law and mother-in-law presided over a child rape house and that's where I'm going to live.
	Sorry, USA.
	I lost a train of thoughts.
	Sorry.
	I would not recommend bringing children into that environment because they wouldn't choose that.
	But you also won't have any authority with them anyway, so they're just going to get taken by the General Borg collective mindset anyway.
	That's my ultimate concern is it.
	Coercion is a hell of a thing.
	The answer is just stop.
	Don't be coerced.
	I'm not sure what you mean by coercion.
	No one's got a gun to your head?
	What are you talking about?
	Oh, this is another excuse.
	Now you're putting yourself into being a victim of coercion so you don't have any free will.
	Is that what you're saying?
	Hey, another layer of teeth grew up!
	The answer is just stop it.
	Don't excuse.
	Don't.
	100% self-ownership.
	150% self-ownership.
	When in doubt, apply more self-ownership.
	Like, whatever the problems are in society, more freedom is the answer.
	Whatever your problems are in life, more self-ownership is the answer, both giving and accepting.
	Because you've heard this a million times, and you've given it a million times to me.
	Oh, we had a bad childhood.
	Oh, they didn't know what they were doing.
	It was probably unconscious.
	They're not aware.
	They didn't do this.
	They don't have this level of self-knowledge.
	They can't achieve that.
	Right?
	It's just lowering your standards.
	Okay, so lower your standards.
	But if you're willing to work for $10 an hour, don't complain that you're not getting $50 an hour.
	I mean, you accept $10 an hour.
	What are you worth?
	You're worth what you accept.
	What life do you have?
	The life of your standards.
	If you lower your standards, you'll have a worse life.
	I mean, you'll get secondary benefits, of course, which is, you won't have to cross the desert to find better people, and you work with the familiar, and there's real comfort in that, and you're not a crazy person, you're balancing two pluses and minuses.
	I mean, from my perspective, if I was still in Trash Planet, I don't even know if I'd be getting out of bed.
	What do you mean?
	Like, if I hadn't crossed the desert and got to better people.
	Honestly, I don't know if I'd even be here.
	I'm not trying to give you some sort of voodoo curse, I'm just telling you for myself, it'd be so depressing.
	It's getting to that point where it's... I'm scared.
	Right.
	You probably felt coercion because you're going to force yourself to do something.
	I'm just saying you sit with the options and you make a choice.
	Don't force yourself to do anything because that's just giving yourself an excuse.
	You have to choose.
	That's what self-ownership is.
	If you choose to stay in your current environment, make that a choice.
	And don't ever give yourself an excuse.
	And don't ever impose a higher standard on others, especially your children.
	And again, I know this sounds like, oh you shouldn't, I'm just telling you, if you're going to choose to stay where you are, make that a choice.
	If you're going to choose a different set of standards, make that a choice.
	But I think you're waiting for some rebellion to happen within you that sky hooks you into some either acceptance or rejection of where you are.
	You're passive.
	And that's why you're torn.
	Because you're saying, oh, I'm just going to wake up with some giant resolution in my head that's going to make the decision for me, right?
	Has that happened?
	No, you're just getting tired.
	And you're torn, and you're ambivalent, and you're, right?
	You're losing energy, not gaining it.
	Am I wrong?
	So, you know the parameters.
	Do you want people in your life who are committed to honesty, who are committed to caring for you, who listen to you when you're wise about something, who you listen to when they're wise about things?
	Do you want a life of honor and integrity and virtue and honesty and moral courage?
	Which has its pluses and its massive minuses.
	Right?
	So it's not an easy choice.
	I'm not going to pretend it's an easy choice.
	Or, do you want what's familiar, although sometimes unpleasant, but you know how to navigate it, you know what it is, you know what the outcome's going to be.
	Do you want familiarity?
	Or do you want morality?
	And both have their appeals.
	I'm not saying it's not a tough choice.
	But just make the choice.
	Don't just let things happen to you.
	Don't just let life happen.
	While making excuses.
	Sorry, go ahead.
	Do you think there could be a middle ground that's driven towards?
	Well, you've been trying that.
	I mean, right?
	You've been listening to me for eight years.
	You've been trying the middle ground of giving good advice to people who don't listen.
	How's the middle ground been working out for you?
	I could be doing more, but then it goes back to the...
	No, but the reason you're not doing more is doing more, you fear, will break the pretense of the relationship.
	So, you're probably doing the maximum that you feel can be done.
	And I'll give you straight up props for that.
	Good for you, man, good for you.
	You've given eight years of service In trying to make your environment better.
	That's, you know, maybe a little long, but it's certainly a noble calling.
	I mean, I did it for longer, so I'm not speaking from any position of superiority at all here, like I'm further down in the trenches than you are.
	Or was.
	So, you know, you put your time in, you put your honor in, right?
	And try to bring virtue to people who don't listen to virtue, really.
	You've tried that, and I think you've got to respect the eight years you put in on that, right?
	It's probably a bit more, but yeah.
	Yeah, yeah, sorry, I don't mean to say that your only moral awakening is when you started listening to me.
	Maybe it's ten years, maybe it's, right, since you were, maybe it could have been twenty years if you started in your mid-teens.
	Absolutely, sorry, I didn't mean to imply that.
	That's the only thing I knew about.
	Doesn't matter.
	So, yeah, you've put your time in.
	Oh, well, I could have been doing it better.
	Well, come on.
	Because time's ticking away.
	Right?
	It's the opportunity cost.
	Right?
	So you've spent ten plus years trying to raise the Titanic.
	It ain't coming up.
	And then all the things you could have done instead are not getting done.
	Yep.
	Well, that definitely plays into a lot of how the last ten years have went.
	Right.
	And the exhaustion could be like, I'm trying to apply virtue to people who don't have any particular conscience.
	In which case, your exhaustion is like, this isn't working, this isn't working.
	And the exhaustion is like, stop.
	Like, you know, you've worked physical labor, you know, you try and lift something, and you give it a couple of shots, but if it doesn't even budge, you gotta go get a jack or something, right?
	So, keep lifting, you're just going to injure yourself, right?
	I just don't want to lose everything.
	Well, but you see, and I'll just end up here because we've been talking for a long time, but if you say, I just don't want to lose everything, then you're just programming yourself to not make a choice.
	Right?
	You're escalating to the point where you, like, who on earth would want to lose everything?
	Well, nobody would want to lose everything.
	So, you're trying to not make a choice by escalating the stakes to the point where you just have to do something.
	If you're trying to have more integrity and morality in your life, if that's you losing everything, then you're programming yourself with escalated language to not make a choice.
	Well, I'm going to recall from that, who would want to do that?
	Yeah.
	But it's getting to the point where, like, I'm worried for doing something inadvertent in an airplane or something, because I'm tired, or my focus is somewhere else.
	Well, and I sympathize with all of that, and obviously, you know, you've heard me say this before, but if you have any self-destructive thoughts, you know, I would absolutely beg you... No, it's not anything... No, carelessness, or even that kind of stuff, right?
	If you're concerned, like, don't fly, don't, like, whatever it is, like, make sure that you don't do anything self-destructive in that kind of way.
	And, I mean, really, it's a battle for your soul, right?
	So, it's a battle for your soul, as these things tend to be.
	So, you've got lots of people in your life who don't want you to tell the truth, and you've got yourself who wants to tell the truth.
	And who's going to win?
	The other people in your head, or you?
	What other people want you to do, or what is honest?
	Now, listen, there are times when other people will win, in life.
	And there's nothing wrong with that, that's natural, right?
	I do things I don't want to do, Because of consequences.
	Right?
	I mean, I live in a society that's pretty volatile, as most societies are, all societies really, to anybody who tells the truth.
	So, yeah, I will absolutely shape my behavior according to consequences, but I don't lie to myself about it.
	I just say, yeah, cost-benefit, yeah, I'm going to make this choice, right?
	Which is not the most direct and honest choice.
	I'm going to do that, right?
	Sure, yeah, okay, I get that.
	But that's just a navigation thing, right?
	I choose to not self-sacrifice and self-immolate and whatever, right?
	So, but I'm not pretending otherwise to myself.
	So if you choose to not, you know, talk honestly or what, then that's fine.
	That happens.
	That happens.
	I mean, morality has to be a choice.
	It can't be, well, I'm doomed to be honest no matter what the consequences, right?
	Well, I mean, if you want to survive, then you have to make some compromises in the world that is, right?
	We aim to have a world that will be, where we don't have to make these kinds of compromises, but we live in the world that is, right?
	So, if you choose not to tell the truth, be honest to yourself about your choice not to tell the truth.
	That's fine.
	That doesn't destroy your integrity.
	Discretion is the better part of valor.
	I just don't see how... He who fights and runs away lifts a fight another day, right?
	But it... it just doesn't seem... You mix it all up with this blood ancestor loyalty stuff, like some sort of, I don't know, Aztec ninja samurai whatever, right?
	So, no, just say, listen, my family gets really volatile when I tell the truth, so I'm not going to tell the truth about some stuff.
	Just be honest about it, with yourself.
	Cloak it up with all of this, I don't know, blood loyalty, fealty on the sword, Arthurian stuff, but that's just lying to yourself.
	No, it's like, okay, so if I tell the truth to my family they'll get really mad and they might cut me off and I work there and I need an income and, right, they might be hit.
	So okay, so I'll shut up about this stuff with my family, but just say it's because they're volatile, because they'll be aggressive, because they'll reject me, because they'll ostracize me.
	So I won't say this.
	Okay?
	Look, that's honest.
	Other people can have you not tell the truth, but they can't force you to lie to yourself.
	Do you see what I mean?
	And I think that's the crux of this.
	Yeah, that is the crux of it.
	Is that if you choose not to tell the truth, don't lie to yourself about it.
	And I'm making myself very sick by doing it.
	Well, you want to tell the truth, you're afraid to tell the truth, So you can choose to tell the truth, or you can choose not to tell the truth.
	I'm not going to tell you about that.
	Like if you said, I want to go, I don't know, throw kittens into a lake in a bag, I'd say don't do that.
	But this is not an NAP violation, this isn't a UPB thing.
	So if you are in an environment where you choose not to tell the truth... I'm complicit in it.
	No!
	Forget the complicity!
	If you're in an environment where you choose not to tell the truth, Just don't lie to yourself about it.
	But...
	Navigate with what comes from that.
	But yeah, just don't...
	Nobody can force you to lie to yourself.
	Including myself.
	I can't do it.
	That's why I'm struggling so much.
	I just can't do it.
	Can't do what?
	Yes, and so, look, you can say, look, I mean, I choose my family of origin, it's a business relationship, it's a multi-decade personal relationship, okay, and the price of being around my family of origin is to not talk about certain things, and I have to accept that they don't care about me enough to try and shake me out of a five-year, go-nowhere relationship, right?
	So you recognize the limitations and you say, I'm choosing to spend time with these people while recognizing the limitations, while recognizing the fact that they claim to care about me but it doesn't really manifest that much.
	But just be honest with yourself.
	But you think, oh my gosh, but if I'm honest with myself, I absolutely have to change my behavior.
	It's like, no, no, just be honest with yourself.
	Because if you say, being honest with myself automatically programs me to do X, Y, and Z, like you're a train on a track and just gotta go some direction, then you can't be honest with yourself, because then that compels you into action.
	But you can be honest with yourself, not tell the truth.
	Right?
	Being honest with yourself about lying doesn't force you to tell the truth.
	You're trying to, again, you're trying to give excuses.
	I just want to give you choice.
	You can choose.
	Like, there's some topics I don't talk about on this show.
	I'm aware of that.
	I'm not lying to myself about that.
	I'm saying I'm not talking about this stuff.
	Okay.
	I'm not breaking my integrity.
	I'm choosing that.
	I'm not blaming anyone else.
	I'm choosing that.
	But if you feel well the moment I say, I'm not telling the truth.
	I must now be compelled to tell the truth.
	Well, that's not making a choice.
	That's just being programmed in some kind of way.
	Philosophy is about choice.
	Morality is about choice.
	If you're forced to do it, it's not choice.
	That's what I've been telling people.
	Right.
	So, you know, physician heal they self, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Oh.
	If you choose to be with your girlfriend because she needs you, because you have a history, because she's become
	dependent on you and all that, then you're not a good person.
	All of that?
	Okay.
	Then that's a choice.
	I would not recommend choosing to spend time with people who ran the child rape household.
	And I would absolutely say that that would be a terrible thing to put your children in contact with.
	And if your girlfriend insists that The people who ran the child rape house, because I assume it was 13 siblings, right?
	I assume it was more than just two, right?
	So the people who ran the child rape house, that to me would be a deal-breaker with regards to being around my kids.
	So if your girlfriend is like, oh no, they have to be around our kids, well then that's a different matter because now you're imposing this on children, right?
	That's, yeah.
	That's not a choice you can, like you can't morally make that choice, right?
	So, I mean, did you ever have that conversation?
	I assume you've talked about kids.
	Did you ever have that conversation with your girlfriend?
	Yep.
	And what did she say?
	That it wouldn't happen.
	That the parents she praises and loves wouldn't be around your kids?
	No, they would be, it's just... Okay, and when did you have that conversation, just out of curiosity?
	Again, it was a while ago.
	Roughly.
	Like, you find out a couple of months in that she was sexually abused as a child under her parents' watch?
	But, no, like, this particular conversation pertaining to children came about probably two years in.
	Okay.
	So, two years in, she says, yes, the people who presided over my sexual abuse will be with our children.
	Oh, like, there's no question in her mind.
	She can't comprehend the idea of her family not being involved in her life.
	No, no, it's your children though.
	It'd be the same thing.
	She couldn't imagine a life where they aren't involved or things have not been... So, sorry, is this a deal-breaker to you to have her parents in contact with your children on a regular basis?
	I think it should be.
	No, no, is it a deal-breaker for you?
	Yes, in the current state.
	What do you mean in the current state?
	There's been no... there's been no atonement, there's been no healing.
	No, no, I get that, but that was also the case three years ago, right?
	Yeah, and I need to get... that's right, why... So you've been stringing this woman along with a deal-breaker for three years?
	But I didn't admit that to myself even at the time.
	You chose to avoid that knowledge.
	Don't say I didn't.
	You chose to reject that knowledge.
	You chose not to call me.
	You chose not to get any advice.
	You chose not to talk to a therapist and say these people who presided over child abuse, my girlfriend wants them to be in contact with my children.
	Right?
	You chose to avoid that knowledge.
	And there's no excuse, because you listened to this show, which certainly you would have heard this sort of stuff a million times, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So this is the dark side, right?
	That you chose to string along and exploit, in a sense, a victim of child abuse, when you had a deal-breaker.
	And you never told her it was a deal-breaker, right?
	If you would have asked me at the start of this conversation, I probably would have said I would have tried to work with it.
	You would have tried to what?
	Work with it.
	What does that mean?
	To come to understanding, and it's a... It's a cop-out, and... Okay, so at least we can admit that it's a cop-out.
	Work with it doesn't... I don't know.
	I'm saying it's wrong.
	Well, I'm trying to work with it.
	It's wrong, but I'm just... At the start of this conversation, I probably said I would have tried to...
	Right.
	So yeah, you really do have to watch out for your fogging and excuse-making.
	And the excuse-making is because, in order to spend time with your family of origin, you have to make excuses for them, and then that It influences your whole worldview, including your relationship with yourself and the degree of accountability you can hold to yourself or to those around you, right?
	So that's, again, that's just the price.
	If you have to compromise your virtues to be with people, your virtues will be compromised everywhere.
	And, you know, again, cost-benefit, I can't make that calculation for you.
	And it's certainly not a violation of the non-aggression principle to spend time with your family of origin.
	All right.
	We've had a long old chat.
	How are you doing?
	Good.
	A lot to think about.
	I really appreciate this.
	Shouldn't have done it earlier, but... Will you keep me posted about how it's going?
	I will.
	All right.
	Thanks, man.
	I really appreciate the conversation and I hope you'll stay in touch.
	Sure thing, Seth.
	Take care.

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