March 11, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:20:23
5433 My Girlfriend Doubts Philosophy! Freedomain Call In
"My question is about my relationship with my girlfriend. I am in this place in my life where I've never been. I have a lovely girlfriend. I think I very much appreciate her and feel like she's a very, very valuable person in my life. However, I'm not sure that she is the one for me, like the one that we should live 80 years together, bring kids together. I want many kids. She wants kids, but not as many, because I'm not sure that she shares the values that I so much value."Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!Get my new series on the Truth About the French Revolution, access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, the 22 Part History of Philosophers series and more!See you soon!https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
My question is about my relationship with my girlfriend.
I'm in this place in my life where I've never been.
I have a lovely girlfriend.
I think I very much appreciate her and feel like she's a very, very valuable person in my life.
However, I'm not sure that she is the one for me, like the one that we should live 80 years together.
I'm not sure that she shares the values that I so much value.
That's a very tough situation, and I sympathise.
It's almost better to not like someone than to be in doubt about someone, because at least you have not this problem.
So I sympathise with that, and I'm happy to hear if you want to tell me... What age range are you?
You don't have to tell me exactly.
Twenties?
Mid-twenties?
Mid-twenties, yes.
Mid-twenties, okay.
And how long have you been going out with... Can we call her Sarah?
Is that okay?
Yes.
Okay, so how long have you been going out with Sarah?
Six months.
Six months.
Maybe just about seven, right now.
Something in between.
Yeah, hit me with the pluses and the minuses.
Obviously, there's enough pluses there that it's tormenting you, and enough minuses there that the torment might be real.
So, what are the things that you like, and the things that you don't like, and all of that?
Sure, so I will tell, but just in case I will open my mail, so in case I forget something.
Uh, so the plus is like, okay, she's, she's the best one I had yet.
That's for sure.
That's by far.
Um, she is very positive.
She's very, um, um, yeah, just, uh, happy.
She, um, she cares about me.
She loves me.
She, um, um, she tries to,
Have the initiative and stuff and bring stuff to the relationship She offers to go places and whenever I take her to places.
She's very grateful about it.
She She's just a lot of fun a lot of fun and Whenever we talk we have long conversations she she's with me like she I very much appreciate that of her that she can bear with me very long conversations in which I am
Bring very niche perspectives, very, very perspectives that are not conventional.
She never heard about this whole stuff about homeschooling, way less she heard about my philosophical leanings, meaning anarcho-capitalism, which is actually one of the main points that concerns me.
So yeah, she... I mean, if I can open my mail, I... I have... She was... She did some... Let me see... Okay, here it is.
Okay, so... I'll just read something here that I wrote that I think expresses it better.
So...
So yeah, so I'm now facing the crossroads of whether I want to continue the relationship or not.
She wants me and wants to continue, but not under the standards I propose we should follow.
She's very kind, warm, not complicated, a good listener, beautiful, fun, caring, feminine, and pleasant to be around.
And I would say we have a ratio of 90% happy and meaningful memories.
She also has done some acts I really value, such as joining my gym and training under my coaching, trying out the niche underwater sport I play, and playing with the team
For two or three trainings, but then she came and filmed three of the other team practices, like three of our team practices, and she later edited one of the films and all of the team got to watch it and appreciate that we can watch ourselves play.
She surprised me with puzzles that I like, with some Rubik's Cube that I really like.
She also learned me how to solve them.
Also, she's a good girl who has taken care of herself in the sexual market, and thus has come with no baggage nor toxicity to the relationship.
In short, she's a wonderful person who brings me happiness every time she smiles.
Should I continue to the problems?
Okay, so the problem is values, future plans, and conflict resolution.
So, by the way, when I wrote this, it was
Two weeks ago, and we were in the middle of a conflict.
Right now, it's just the dust settled off a little bit, but this still is not resolved.
So it still is on my mind, but I am now, I mean, going along with it and feeling not as much concerned about it, but I know that it will for sure rise again.
So the problem is values.
Flutter plans and conflict resolution.
I want many kids and no dogs.
She only wants two and a dog.
This is actually the only one that I believe I can convince her, but there's a lot of uncertainty on my side.
I want to homeschool them and for at least one parent to be home, which is probably her because I probably make more money.
She wants a career in architecture and has made no comment on homeschooling.
We had a few conversations in which I raised the issue and she
She many times says that she doesn't know about it, but then doesn't want to... I mean, we didn't find the time to actually talk about it seriously.
This is something that maybe... Maybe it's a problem that we don't have the time to talk as much deeply into this
Okay, so I don't want to circumcise the kids.
She was open to hearing that, but did not approve of it wholeheartedly.
Instead, she said it's important for her grandparent.
So I'm not sure what is her position on that.
I fear that it may be too passive.
Another big one, and maybe the central one, is that I'm an anarchist.
This one is at the forefront right now.
It is of extreme importance to me to agree on morality.
I believe it will help her agree with my future plans and be enthusiastic about them, because I believe that if she'll be an anarchist, then she will see why I don't want to put my kids on government schools, which are brainwashed for the kids.
So, I believe agreement here is necessary for admiration and love.
I believe if I don't marry someone who agrees with me on this,
First of all, it's a foolish idea because it's so rare and special.
So someone who does agree with me will appreciate me tenfold.
So unfortunately, as was the case with all the other girls I got out with, she's not interested in the topic.
We had at least four semi-long conversations about it.
In three of them, she said the points I made made sense to her.
She did not think of it before, but they don't seem to make...
Even though she did not think of them before, they don't seem to make an impact on her and make her change her mind.
In the other one of these four conversations, I was actually attacking her mindset about the problems because, as you may very well be familiar with, sometimes people just ask questions without bringing curiosity, just asking, oh no, how will someone fix the roads?
So I was attacking her
Her approach.
Sorry, what do you mean by attacking?
Oh, sorry.
I'm not sure if you're yelling at her or just being very critical logically.
What do you mean?
Oh no, I never yelled at her.
I think it was just making logical points, yes.
So I pointed out that I don't believe her approach is correct, that she is not showing curiosity but rather closed with a prejudiced conclusion.
She raises this conversation as evidence that I am not willing to answer questions and therefore I am closed-minded and discussing this topic with me is pointless.
So this is something that actually hits me in a very personal point because my family also tells me this, that I am closed-minded.
So the way I see it is that I'm not close-minded because I got convinced, and I've never seen them getting convinced, but yeah, this is something that I get from many people around me, namely the girls I've gone out with and my family.
Okay, so I'll continue.
Sorry, could you tell me a little bit more?
Just hold your place in that.
I just want to make sure I understand what they mean by close-minded, or what you think they mean by close-minded.
Okay, so, by the way, this is something that maybe even my friends tell me, that I am not willing to really, really listen to their positions, and I'm already coming in with a position of my own, and they know that they will not be able to convince me.
So maybe that's what they think.
I know that this is not the case.
I mean, I react to good arguments.
Many times they don't bring good arguments, so I think that is the reason that I don't change my mind.
But I think they think I'm closed-minded.
I will not look at it that way.
So, do you think they mean that open-minded means you'll accept bad arguments and just nod along, or if you say this argument is false and they can't disprove you,
So, I'm sure that they believe that they brought good arguments.
So, I'm sure that they believe that it's me who's not willing to look at the good arguments and to actually change my mind.
But, I mean, at the same time, I know that some of my friends who don't want to get into issues with me are kind of not wanting to engage.
I mean, with one friend I have a disagreement about very, very basic philosophical stuff, like is there even a truth?
So he obviously doesn't want to get into that.
I don't know.
That you're right.
Yes.
So he's like, there's no such thing as truth, but it is true that you're close-minded.
Okay.
Got it.
It gets great.
Yeah, that's the same exact sentence.
I can't prove that this ball in my hand exists, but I know for a fact that you're close-minded.
It's like, okay.
Excellent epistemology right there.
Excellent.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Yeah, so I have a friend and he has a girlfriend and they talked to me about it.
They tried to give me some advice because they have some issues which are related not in the values, but in the ways that it comes about.
So they also don't agree with each other on some stuff.
And then they find some ways to maybe bridge the gap.
And what she said,
I think it was interesting that she said that in their case, he is better with words than she is.
And then there are cases where she knows that she's not convinced, and she knows that he didn't raise good points, but she's wordless and doesn't know how to respond to it with good words.
But she still knows that his argument is wrong.
Maybe that's manipulation.
Maybe that's manipulation, but... No, listen.
My wife is better than me at some things, so I defer to her.
I'm better than her at some things, so she defers to me.
So the idea that you say, well, my husband is much better at debating and arguing and thinking and reasoning,
But I'm not going to defer to him.
Well, that just doesn't make any sense at all.
That's like saying, well, my dentist is much better at taking care of my teeth than anything I can think of, but I'm still going to argue with my dentist all the time.
It's like, well, that's not right.
If you bring your car in to be fixed and you don't know how to fix your car, are you going to argue with the guy who actually fixes your car?
That makes no sense at all.
I mean, I think what she thinks is that she's not here for his philosophical views.
I mean, she doesn't want to defer to him on that because she doesn't recognize that he's better than she is.
Although if she was to realize that he's better in finances, then it was no problem for her to defer to him on that field because she has no problem to admit in that field that she's willing to bring someone in to her life to deal with that stuff.
But on the philosophy side, maybe she is not inviting that stuff, she doesn't need it, she doesn't want to
She doesn't think it will improve her life, and so she just doesn't think that it's a good value, and then she doesn't defer to him even though she does not know how to respond to him.
Right, okay.
And do you, I mean, I think you've had a couple of thoughts there about why that might be happening.
Like, why would the women, it seems to be more the women, and I think that's a bit more common, why do you think the women are
So keen on saying, well, I can't argue you, but I'm not going to admit that you're right.
Um, so, okay.
So I think it has many reasons.
So one of the reasons that I think is in my case is because, um, because she doesn't have much experience in getting the other person to change his mind.
Uh, then, uh, if she changes her mind all the time, then she,
is not confident in that it is a two-sided game.
She just thinks that she is giving up something, and the other person is more powerful than her in the relationship, and then she will be little, and she won't appreciate herself.
Yeah, I think there's something to do with that, and I'm not going to tell you that you're wrong.
Another part of it might be
That women who want to have kids generally are going to be in the community of other women, right?
If they're stay-at-home moms, then they're going to be in a community of other moms.
Is that fair to say?
Now, how does anarcho-capitalism, or the non-aggression principle, or how private organizations provide national defense, how does that help them
with other women and raising their children in a community of other women.
Yes.
So the social reason, how will the environment accept her, is also a good point, because I think she knows deep inside that they will judge her badly if she takes these conclusions.
So, for you, it's a net gain, because you're kind of facing the world, and people in the world, and how to change the world, and that's your... But if she is saying, well, okay, I'm gonna raise my kids with a bunch of other moms, how do these beliefs help me?
In fact, they're just gonna interfere with that goal.
Is that fair to say?
Yes.
I think yes.
So how does it help her?
Well, so yeah, men will often bond on arguing, on debating, right?
We love that.
It's like play fighting for us in a way, right?
So I love matching wits and seeing who's right and wrong and having a debate and so on.
And again, because men often get into conflicts with each other.
And then we kind of shake hands, like it happens in sports, it can even happen in fistfights, where you have a fight and then you shake hands and, you know, you're not enemies afterwards, right?
So, for men, we can disagree, and often quite aggressively, and it doesn't wreck the friendship, it doesn't wreck everything, but when women disagree, a lot of times, it gets really nasty.
Like, a man might punch you in the face, but a woman will try to destroy your entire reputation, and have your girlfriend break up with you.
You know?
It can get really... So, I think a lot of times, men are a little bit better trained at having conflicts, or not being as afraid of conflicts, whereas for women, the conflicts tend to get pretty intense, and they tend to be very long-lasting.
So, I think she might just be saying, okay, well, if I get into these conflicts,
You know, like the circumcision question, right?
So, she might say, well, gosh, you know, if I end up disagreeing with the other mothers about circumcision, and that's like a big deal, then that looms bigger in that kind of world than it might in our world of more abstract argumentation, if that makes sense?
Yes, it makes.
So, anyway, that's a possibility, although I think that the other thing you said is right, too.
So, sorry, go ahead.
I know that I, like, dragged you off of this other path and all of that, so I'm sorry about that, but you were talking about the things that are problems.
No, I mean, I think it's a very interesting path because I surely don't want... I want to make sure that I don't put her in a bad situation as compared to...
Uh, her friends, which will, I think they, she should make use of her friends to help her raising the kids.
So I don't want to put her in that situation.
Especially if you want homeschooling.
She's going to have to be part of some homeschooling group or community, right?
Yes.
And that's a good question.
I actually don't have an answer, but I, I mean, I, I don't know which friends, I mean, I have a friend, my best friend, I know he is with me philosophically in 99% of, of
Of what we believe in, so I know he will be able to bring his children if he has one, if he has some children.
But other than that, I don't know if I will have a strong community.
So I'm more relying on myself and on the fact that I can cooperate with people and even we can cooperate with people even that don't agree with us because we can send the kids to basketball games.
We don't have to agree with them on everything, but yes, I think we should cooperate with people who are more aligned with our values.
I don't know if there are such people.
I mean, I don't know such people.
I know only my best friend, and I'm trying to convert her, and also I'm in a WhatsApp group with all of these people, but they're dispersed all over the country, so I don't know if I have a solution for the community problem, but I know that we
First of all, I have to be consistent internally, and then we can create a path based on values that we share, and then we can figure out maybe what will the community be.
Right.
So one of the big differences between men and women, and it's not bad or anything, but men tend to live in the future and women tend to live in the present.
So in your mind, and I think in your life, you're like, well, I have this non-aggression principle, anarcho-capitalism.
I have this vision of the future and how I want things to be and so on.
And I think maybe your girlfriend is like, well, that's great.
You know, wonderful.
I have to actually be part of a community that lives with the values that we have in the here and now.
If we're going to homeschool, and if I'm going to be part of a community.
And the more I get into your values, the more difficulty I have creating a community to raise the kids in.
And the more conflict I'm going to end up with, and the more isolated I'm going to become.
And actually, it's interesting, because how I solve it myself is I say, okay, I have friends.
And the reason I have friends is that I play sports.
When I play sports, I go out with the people on that sport, and we don't have to agree on values, but... I mean, the only reason I can... Well, no, you have to agree on the rules!
Yeah, sure, but... So you have to agree on some values, right?
Yeah, for sure we agree on the rules.
But not moral, abstract.
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Yeah, so... I mean...
The problem that I'm bringing to her life on the moral courage is what do you say about the NAP?
So she is very fearful on accepting some of my conclusions.
My.
I mean, the conclusions that I think are correct.
So the way I deal with it with my friends is that I bring it up just because I know that
Only those who agree with me are probably the ones who are gonna cooperate with me on homeschooling kids.
All the rest are gonna be just conventional.
They're going to send their kids to daycare.
And, I mean, I will not cooperate with them if I hide my values.
So they obviously know my values, but only if I convert them then they can cooperate with me and help me with that.
I don't know if it's correct.
Sorry, and the other negatives.
It's mostly around society and values.
I mean, there is the number of kids, and I get that, but is it around society and values as a whole?
Yes.
I mean, I don't think she's philosophical enough.
I mean, once you talked about having a shared interest, and we share some interest, but I think philosophy is too
It's burning too hot inside me, and I can't just accept that.
No, but why would you need a woman to share your love of philosophy?
To the degree that you do.
Not that you can't talk about it, or that she doesn't care, but to have that burning passion within you, why would she need to match that?
Because that would be very rare in anyone, but I think a little bit more rare among women.
So yeah, so I agree it's rare.
And also that, I mean, I think that there are people like that.
I have evidence that there are women like that, but there are no women.
I mean, I didn't talk to these women, so it's very far, but I do think that
There is something else out there in the world, so that's why I'm a bit... Well, okay, so how many women have you met who share your burning passion for philosophy?
And not any women, it doesn't matter, like, could be aunts, uncles, you know, whatever, sorry, aunts, or people's wives, or whatever.
How many women have you met who share your passion for philosophy?
Okay, so...
So in the anarchist WhatsApp group, there are two.
So I know that based on what they write, I know that they are very philosophically inclined and agree with me and show correct, I think, good values in what they write.
And in my personal life, probably zero, but there are two who I think have enough of conversational skills and enough curiosity so that they could become
One of these people.
So you're not a malignant condition, right?
No.
So hang on, so when you tell me there's two out of your group, what does that not tell me?
Two out of how many?
I mean... Two out of two is fifty percent!
Two out of a hundred is two percent!
How many?
I said there are two from which I ever... No, you said in your anarchy group there's two women, but how many people are in your anarchy group?
Sure, sure, sure.
In the anarchy group, which is, again, this is not part of my community, this is just an intern community which I have no physical connection with.
So there, there are two.
There are, I think, something like four women.
But two of them are active, and so I know the values and the philosophical innings of them.
But there are just four women in total there, out of, I don't know, 60 men.
Okay.
Something like that.
Got it, okay.
And are the women, are they, like, I don't know, if you were single, would you date them?
Exactly, so... No, no, would you?
So the answer is yes.
Okay, got it.
One of them is not single, but the other one I think is single, and from what she writes, this is a very, very big temptation for me.
I never talk to her, and I never will do it as long as I have a girlfriend, and I told her that there is this temptation, but it is a big temptation.
You said to who?
Your girlfriend?
Yes.
I'm sorry, you said to your girlfriend that you're tempted to get in touch with the online anarcho hottie because she's more attractive philosophically?
I didn't say it in those words, I said that... No, I bet on him!
Yeah, no, I mean I said that there is some steps that we still did not make in order for me to be...
To be confident that I want her to be my wife.
One of those steps is the agreement on anarchism, anarcho-capitalism.
I mean, she asked me, are there any girls that are anarcho?
Okay, I remember what she asked me.
She asked me, why didn't you put this standard at the beginning?
And I said,
I mean, the standard that I put at the beginning is, are you able to adapt or to react to reason?
So this is the standard.
I didn't expect you to be an anarcho-capitalist from the start.
And also, there are no anarcho-capitalists.
I only know of one more girl who is an anarcho-capitalist who is in this group, but I will never talk to her.
And then she got the idea that I want to talk to her, which is the correct idea.
I want to talk to her, but not in the context of a relationship.
So she asked me, kind of upset, okay, so am I something that sets you back?
And I said, of course.
Oh, I'm taking you back from talking to this girl.
Exactly.
And the way I answered that is, I am still seeing you as a big, huge opportunity in my life who maybe will be the future of my children.
The mother of my children, and I am still judging you and trying to fit you into that position, but it is a temptation that you still do not fulfill in my biggest desires.
Okay, let me ask you this.
If your girlfriend were to come to you and say, look, I, I, it's not my intellect that fails to grasp the universality of the non-aggression principle.
I get all of that.
I just have this emotional barrier because I see it as a very lonely life.
Like you're going to be off doing your work.
And are you going to work with people who aren't anarcho-capitalists?
Um, okay.
So this is, you're asking me as my girlfriend, right?
Yeah.
Okay, so, um, I don't think it is a lonely life.
I think... No, no, hang on, hang on.
Just answer the question.
Are you going to, in your professional life, are you going to work with people who don't share your values?
I will, and I do.
Okay.
So, you don't obviously alienate your work colleagues with lots of talk about anarcho-capitalism, right?
Correct.
Okay.
So, for me, if I accept these values, these arguments, will you be okay if, when I'm homeschooling, I hang out with other moms who aren't anarcho-capitalists and we are friends, or we have companionship in that group of raising children?
For sure!
For sure!
I mean, I think we should point out whenever something goes astray in the teaching, but for sure we can cooperate, and I have friends which are very not anarcho-capitalists, and I'm still their friend.
So yes, the answer is yes.
Sorry, what do you mean when you say, I think we should point it out when... we should point it out when what?
I just missed that.
Okay, so if we are friends with non-anarcho-capitalists, and maybe they're, I don't know, maybe they're socialists,
And then we will teach our children together in a homeschooling environment, and then maybe they'll teach them something which we do not agree.
So there's no problem with that.
We just have to point out that that is not what we believe, so we have to be focused.
We have to make sure that we know what they're teaching them.
Are you, this is as your girlfriend, are you yourself friends with socialists?
They're not philosophical.
I believe they're not socialists, so no.
No, but you said socialists just a moment or two ago.
Yeah, I was taking an example, but I don't have friends that are socialists, that define themselves as socialists.
I have only one friend who is philosophical, who knows what these terms mean.
So your other friends, they would call themselves socialists, is that right?
No, no, no.
No, no, no, they won't.
They don't want to get into this stuff, but I think mostly would say that the regular stuff.
I see the value in capitalism, but I think there is also a place for mutual help in the socialistic way.
I don't know.
So they would be like semi-socialists?
I mean, I think that...
That they would raise more points for capitalism, but I don't think they are very involved in it.
They will raise some points for socialism as well.
Okay, so they're willing to violate property rights and the non-aggression principle using force?
Yes.
And they're your friends?
Uh, yes.
Okay.
So, if you think that
It's really important to have good relationships for people to share your values.
Why do you have friends who not only don't share your values, but would be willing to use force against you for disagreeing with them?
Okay, so that's a good point, and I thought about it a lot, because that is exactly the point that my parents raised when I asked them, too, why are you not interested?
Why are you, you know, the against-me argument?
Why are you willing to put force against me?
And they say, okay, but
You are not really believing in what you say because why do you say it only to us?
Why not to your friends?
And first of all, I have, I mean, um, with my friends, it's, it's less important for me.
I mean, okay.
It's less important for me to agree on values because first of all, my friends are not gonna, are gonna, are not gonna bring children with me.
So it's, it's a lower standard.
And secondly, I think they are, um,
Inside the same cage with me, so they are just not realizing that they are inside a cage, but they are not willing to see the cage for what it is, and I think I can give them a pass for that.
I don't think that they will use force against me if they were, I don't know, in the positions of power.
I don't think they would want to go to the positions of power, my friends.
Okay, so then
Let's get back to me being your girlfriend.
So your girlfriend might then say, so obviously it's totally fine if I have friends who don't agree with the non-aggression principle.
I mean, you do, so it's fine with me, right?
Yes, you're good.
Okay, so my family, my friends, it's fine if they don't agree with the non-aggression principle, right?
I mean, yes.
I was kind of in the path
I'm not sure about what my path should be about this issue about integrity, whether should I continue to raise this issue.
I raise this issue very, very exhaustively with my family.
They are completely burned out of it.
I mean, they don't hate me for it, but we don't have regular dinners.
They hate the topic, yeah.
Yeah, they hate the topic.
Position right now that, yes, it's okay.
Of course, if I allow friends that have these ideas, then you should also be able to allow.
Okay, so it's fine if my friends in my family oppose your values, because it's not just that they don't share your values, it's that they oppose your values, right?
I would not put it as opposed, because they are just not interested in it.
I mean, if I'm a doctor and, you know, somebody's choking to death in the restaurant and I say, well, I'm just not interested in saving them, I mean, that's kind of aggressive in a way, right?
Yes.
So they do oppose your values in that they support the current system which opposes your values, right?
Yes, but only because it's more comfortable.
I don't think that if they thought that I was really in danger, they would act according to the system and not according to my wording.
No, but they know that... I mean, sorry, but in terms of supporting aggression against you, they do that, right?
And I'm just playing devil's advocate here, right?
But they do support the current system that supports aggression against you, and obviously themselves as well, but you in particular in terms of your values.
Yes, but they don't see it as aggression against me.
Well, but who cares what they see it as, the question is.
I mean, this is not a philosophical answer.
I, you know, I mean, I can't clap a hand over my eyes and say, there's no train coming down the tracks to hit me, right?
I can't just will things away and not believe in things.
The question is, are they real or true or valid, right?
Yes.
So whenever I confront them and really show them that, okay, there is violence, then and only then will they say, okay, so we support this violence, but only, I mean,
Yes, that's the answer, yes.
So they will support the answer if they get pushed to the limit, but they don't, yeah, I mean, yes.
I don't know what the end of that sentence was.
Yes, they don't see it as violence, but if I point out, okay, man, this is violence, then they will just evade it in one in a hundred ways.
But yes, they will support it in the end.
But by... I mean, not by supporting, okay, we support violence.
I mean, I'm sure you had the same situation.
They will not say, okay, we support the violence.
They will obviously say, okay, this is... Yeah, they redefine it as its consensual social contract.
Yeah, no, I get the defenses that people have.
And so your girlfriend probably looks at this, I think, and would say, okay, so his friends, his family, they can all not accept what he says.
And he's okay with that.
He's okay with continuing those relationships and saying he loves them and he's close to them and family dinners and friendship outings and so on, right?
So in my defense, she does see a very, very big difference in my
My judgment towards my family and my best friends.
Okay, there's a very big difference towards my family and my two other friends.
Can I ask you to move back from the microphone a little bit?
It sounds like you're half-swallowing it, if you could.
Yes.
Yes, thank you.
Go ahead, sorry.
Maybe I should talk a little bit lower?
I don't mind the passion.
You could raise your voice as much as you want.
I'm just saying it's a little bit in my ears.
Sorry, go ahead.
Is this better?
Yeah, that's fine.
Sorry, go ahead.
Okay, so, in my defense, she does see a really big difference in my judgment towards, in one side, my best friend, who is aligned with me in my values, and the other side, which is my family and my two other friends.
We have a group of four.
Two of us are philosophical and two of us are not, but the four of us
We're good to go.
So she sees that there are consequences.
Right, okay, okay.
And do you feel, or does she think that she's gonna have to do this with her own family, have this amount of conflict and problems?
Maybe she feels that, but I told her that I don't expect her to do that, and I also don't recommend her to do that because I don't think that it will change them.
Their minds.
I mean, I've tried very, very... Oh, so it's okay.
Hang on.
So it's not a good idea to have personal conflicts with family about values.
If you think it won't change their minds, then you should just continue and not have these conflicts.
Is that right?
I mean, I... Listen, I'm not criticizing you.
I'm just trying to understand your girlfriend's thinking.
I'm not having a big lecture on you about integrity.
I just want to understand what your girlfriend might be thinking.
Sure.
And thank you.
By the way, this is very much organizing the thoughts in my mind, so thank you very much.
So I would recommend her that she, if this is important for her, and I hope it will be important for her, I do recommend that she try to bring up these ideas.
I do recommend her to come with a lot of patience, and very differently than I did, because I did it very aggressively.
But she should come with patience, and she should, I think,
I think first of all what will happen if they will not agree because that is the most likely case and I will recommend that if she values her family I think it's a good idea to bring and to correct their error because I think that letting people persist in error, it's like you put it, letting people persist in error I think is not loving them as much as you could.
So I would recommend.
I would recommend her to do it, but I think it's mostly inefficient.
Okay, so she sees you saying, well, you can continue your closest relationships, it's fine, they don't have to accept what you believe, it's worth giving it a try, but if they're just not going to accept it, you just drop the topic and continue the relationship, right?
Yes, but then the price is that the relationships get
A lot less close.
So, if you want to be close with me, then you have to at least let's agree on this.
Okay, so, but what she's also getting is that if she pursues your path, then she is going to end up a lot less close to her own family.
I mean, I don't think this is necessarily the case.
It is necessarily the case, I'm afraid, based upon your argument, because you're saying, well, you should try these things, and now maybe her family will be like, you know, I see the lights, Lord, above, I see, and maybe they become full end caps or whatever, that's quite unlikely, but she says, you say, well, you should talk about these things with your family, the odds are they probably won't agree with you, and the result of that is you'll be a lot less close.
I mean, you should choose for yourself if that causes you to appreciate them less or not.
Maybe you value them not for what they believe in, but for what they did for you in the past.
I mean, I value people for what they believe in, and I value you for what you believe in, but I don't think you will have a bad deal if you
Judge people by these standards, although it will make you a bit farther from them.
But I think it's worth it.
Now, does she think it's worth it?
I mean, when she looks at you and she says, okay, you've now, okay, how many years have you had this conflict?
For how many years have you had this conflict with your family?
For five years.
Okay, so she looks and says, okay, five years of stress and strain and problems with your family, right?
Right.
And the end result of it all is just that, well, just not really, you just end up kind of distant and a lot of conflict and a lot of craters and it doesn't really solve anything.
I mean, it has been a huge, I mean, from her view I think it would look like a net negative.
I agree with you that she probably thinks it's a net negative and maybe I should show her more why it's a positive because then you get to
You get to love yourself, because you have integrity, and I think this brings you a lot of joy and a lot of knowledge and confidence that you will choose the right thing to do.
Well, the devil's advocate position, which may be going on in her mind, is, well, you define the state as immoral, those who support the state are supporting immorality and violence,
And yet you're willing to have relationships with people who believe the opposite of what you believe, who support the violence you condemn as immoral, so maybe the integrity thing is not so convincing.
But I judge them less closely.
Maybe I missed something.
I mean, yes, I agree that there is...
There is always something in my heart which says, okay, how much am I supporting this immorality by choosing people in my life who do not disagree, who support this?
But largely I feel that I am pushing the world towards a better place.
I am giving incentives for people to change their minds and to become uncops, and I think I am happy for myself for being that way.
Okay, so I mean this is a very powerful and deep question.
I don't have a big answer for it at all, so I'm not gonna, I'm not trying to lead you someplace like, you know, syllogistically, but what I will say is this.
How much of your beliefs
are theoretical and for the future, which is fine, right?
And how many of your beliefs are to be practically implemented in the here and now?
Now, I don't know that there's any totally clear answers to that.
So, for instance, if I were to say, I will never buy groceries from anyone who isn't an ANCAP!
Can I eat?
I don't know.
Gonna be kind of tough, right?
I will never live in a house that wasn't built by an ANCAP.
I will never get water delivered to my house.
I will never take electricity or a cell phone from anyone who's like... To exist economically, we just have to make compromises and do business with people whose values are opposed to ours.
I mean, that's a fair thing to say.
I mean, you said in the business world, you will do business with those who don't agree with you, right?
So, how many of our beliefs are to be implemented absolutely in the here and now, and how many of them are, this is where I want the world to go in the long run?
Now, the mixture of these two things is tricky.
The mixture of these two things is tricky.
Now, in my own personal relationships, I...
I wouldn't have statists myself.
But I do business with people who are statists, and I live in houses built by people who aren't statists, and I fly on airplanes by people who aren't statists and all of that, so it's not a cut-and-dried black-and-white issue.
Now, in your life, and I'm not criticizing you for this at all, I'm just pointing it out, in your life with regards to your family and your friends, you have said, and practically implemented,
That your beliefs are for the future world to be more than the current relationships you have.
And again, I know this sounds like I'm criticizing your integrity.
I'm not.
I'm genuinely not.
But it sounds like where you've drawn the line is more along the lines of, I'm very passionate for these beliefs.
I will advocate for them, but I'm not going to inflict them as moral absolutes on every relationship I have right now.
Is that fair to say?
Yes.
Okay, so maybe... And that's also a question, it's a question of whether I want to make that decision, but yeah, currently I'm making that decision.
No, you have made that decision, and of course you can change your mind, but just empirically from, and again, I'm not coming from a place of purity, I'm just, I'm like an anthropologist, I'm sort of trying to understand your life, rather than judge it in some abstract fashion.
So, you have made that decision,
And over the course of this conversation, I'm trying to figure out where your girlfriend is coming from.
I'm not trying to argue you about what you're doing with your relationships.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
Okay.
So, in your life, you've said, for a lot of your relationships, what matters is what goes on in the future.
What matters is what I advocate for in the future.
It doesn't have to be absolute in my personal relationships right now.
Okay, so then she looks at that and she sees that, and of course women have this intuition and this instinct for rationality.
Listen, it's really, really important to have access to that, in my humble opinion.
Right?
So, she's looking empirically at your life.
I mean, men tend to be a little bit more abstract, women tend to be a little bit more empirical.
So, she's looking at your life and she's saying, well, hang on!
You have relationships in your life where you don't have a demand for agreement in your business, sports, friendships, family.
You can say, well, it's a little more distant and this, that and the other, right?
But you still have those relationships, so you are not an absolutist in these matters.
Does that make sense?
Yes.
So then why are you demanding that I be an absolutist and submit to this absolutism when you don't even do that with your own family that you've known for decades longer than you've known me?
Now, she's just saying, why is there such strictness with me, and not that same strictness with other much more long-lasting and deep relationships?
So I think I have an answer for that, because I place the relationship with you as a relationship which ought to be much more close and much more
A meaningful and much more important in the terms of the projects we will share.
So this is the relationship that it's more important that we find the correct positions.
But we don't exist just you and me.
We exist with your family, with your friends, with my family, with my friends, with my colleagues at work, with your colleagues at work,
With the other moms that I'm going to be raising our kids with?
Yes, but with every one of them, we have less of an important interaction.
You and me have the biggest interaction that there could possibly be.
Okay, so, if you go to your girlfriend and you say something like this, look, we can have lots of people in our lives who significantly oppose our values.
I mean, economically, we kind of have to in order to survive in the world.
But I have my family, there'll be your family, friends, colleagues, and, you know, you'll be raising kids.
And it's, to me, it's totally fine to be friends or friendly with people who substantially oppose your values.
You don't have to inflict these arguments, these values, and so on, on them.
But for us,
If we need to keep the faith, we need to be pure, in a sense, in what we accept from each other.
Yes.
I mean, I think that's convincing.
It's sort of like sex.
Like, we can hug other people, but we can't have sex with them.
Yes.
Right?
So, we can compromise with other people in the same way we hug them, but we only have sex or purity with each other.
Does that sort of make sense?
Like, ideological or moral purity is for each other.
Exactly, yes.
Okay, so if she understands that accepting these beliefs doesn't alienate her from friends, family, colleagues, future women and other moms to raise kids with and so on, that may give her some comfort that you're looking for intellectual integrity in the marital relationship, but that doesn't translate to intellectual purity in every relationship, because then you're kind of alone living in a cave.
But I did tell her that I don't expect for her to raise these issues with her family.
I thought you said, sorry if I misunderstood, I thought you said that you recommended that she did, but you wouldn't expect her family to accept it.
Yes, that's true.
I also said that.
I said both.
I said... Yes, you did.
And they don't quite mesh, to be frank.
I don't expect her to, but I would recommend, I mean, it's her choice, but I would recommend that if she values them, then she should point out their error.
I think in an attempt to save them.
But from her perspective, if, let's say, you are an expert in something and you fail,
And then you say to her, who's an amateur, you can succeed.
That would be kind of confusing, right?
So if you say, listen, I've been studying, okay, how long have you been studying these matters for?
Um, myself?
I mean, I've been reading about it, I don't know, five years.
Five years.
Okay.
So you have a half decade experience in this, right?
Yes.
And you have converted nobody in your family, right?
Yes.
And how many friends have come over to the ANCAP side of things?
One, but not very strongly.
Another one, which is a girl, actually, but only on some minor issues.
I mean, there are successes, but there are few and far between.
Right.
Now, when you look back, and if you imagine being a businessman, if you look at the time and effort and energy that you've invested in trying to change people's minds, versus the number of people whose minds you've actually changed, does it seem like a productive and positive use of your time, when you look back on it?
I mean, I'm happy that I did it.
I think that if there is one who can change his mind, that is worth a thousand, because he will be free.
And also I go to... Hang on, you've got people's agreement on a few smaller issues, if I understand this correctly, but you haven't had someone who has accepted all of the implications of the full principles, is that right?
Right.
But I have someone who agrees with the principles, but doesn't want to...
It's not very interested in that.
Okay, so they won't advocate very effectively for these principles, they wouldn't risk any other relationships or anything like that, right?
Exactly, yes.
Okay.
So, cost-benefit, let's be harsh, right?
In the short life that we have, you've probably spent 10,000 hours trying to convince people over the last five years?
Not as much, but a lot, yes.
Maybe, I think even less, but yes.
Okay, a couple of thousand hours, right?
Now, when you look at the practical results, not, you know, what might have happened, or saving people's souls, or whatever stuff you could say, when you look at the practical results, has it been worth it?
So, okay, so, in the face of the external world, again, so, it was not, okay, so,
It's a lot.
The value for money, I mean, the value for change is very, very little, but the small change that I did, I think I'm happy with it.
But in the internal world, it really helped me to be confident in my beliefs.
Right, okay.
You could have got that confidence just, you know, debating online or debating with people who weren't family and friends and so on, right?
I mean, it's done some harm to your relationships with your family.
You said it's created some distance and so on.
Is that fair to say?
Yes, but I don't see it as harm.
I see it as a distance which is beneficial for me.
I mean, I was feeling like a ghost in Family Dinners, which gets shut up and censored, so I'm happy that I'm less spending time with them.
Okay, got it, got it.
So there's been some benefit in the distance for you, right?
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
I mean, you could have chosen to exercise that distance without the conflicts, though, right?
Yes, but then, I mean, I like to...
If I distance myself from someone, I like to explain.
I don't want... because they... Yes, but not necessarily for five years.
I mean, look, empirically, I mean, I'm not saying whether it would be right or wrong, but empirically, it could have happened that you have a couple of debates with your family, they say what their position is, you say what your position is, you recognize that they're not going to meet you in the middle, and whatever your decision you make, in terms of the amount of time and effort and energy, and I'm saying this because you said that your family was exhausted, worn out, you know, like there's got to have been a lot that you poured into this that caused a lot of friction and problems.
Right.
What's the question again?
Was it worth it?
For the thousands of hours, the amount of conflict, and so on, was it worth it from a cost-benefit standpoint?
Um, so, okay, so, I mean, if you look at the consequences, no, but sometimes the right choice does not bring the good consequences, but you still are happy that you made the right decision.
I mean, for example, I don't know... No, that's what I'm saying, is looking back on it, not at the time.
But looking back on it, was it worth it?
If I knew that this would be the consequence, then I wouldn't spend so much hours, and I maybe would have to explain to my family why I am distancing myself, and then they will probably understand me way less.
Maybe think of other stuff that they think of me right now, but it's not that right now they think of me the things that I like them to think about me, so I think it would be worth it to take another approach.
Also, I do regret the way that I brought it up.
I brought it up very aggressively.
Which even lowers the chance that they will get convinced, so that I had regretted always.
So, with all of the skill and expertise, and look, of course, obviously your intelligence and language skills are very high, so that's obviously fantastic.
So, with all of your skill and expertise, and the close relationship you had with your family, it didn't go well, and you have some significant regrets about the time invested, and also the way that you approached it, like the kind of aggressive way, is that right?
About the way I approach it, I have regrets about the consequences.
I don't have regret, but I would choose to do it differently.
I mean, I don't know... No, but as I said, the time invested, right?
It was not a very productive use of your time to keep battling for this little effect, right?
Yes, okay.
Yes, I think.
No, listen, if you feel that thousands of hours, or hundreds of hours, or whatever it was that you've spent fighting half to the death, it sounds like Mortal Kombat with your family.
Like, it's a gladiatorial, like, one person's got a lion, the other one's got a pitchfork.
So, I think it's fair to say, and I don't want to put words in your mouth, that it was not the best use of your time to fight for this long with your family and have them just be exhausted at the topic and not really change their minds.
Yes, but I think that maybe I would have regretted it if I didn't do it, because I know that I didn't give them the chance to be free.
I mean, how could I get to this conclusion without doing it?
See, you keep it at time.
I say looking back, right, and then you're saying, well, I couldn't have known.
Sure, sure, sure.
What if I say looking back, right?
Okay, yeah, yeah.
So looking back, yes, I agree.
It didn't free them, so okay.
So it was a waste of time, yes.
Well, whether it was a waste of your time or not, it wasn't the best use of your time.
Yes.
You know, right?
Okay.
Like, I mean, if you play, I don't know, 500 hours of a video game, it's not a total waste of your time.
You have fun and you gain some skills, but compared to other things you're doing, it might not be great.
Okay.
So when it comes to your girlfriend, are you going to her saying,
I have made bad decisions at times about conflicts with people.
I fought too hard.
I fought too long.
I approached it the wrong way.
So I really can't tell you what you should or shouldn't do regarding these beliefs and other people.
I have humility, having made some mistakes, and listen, if it's any consolation, brother, I have too, so, you know, we're all in the same boat, or the same trench, as far as this goes.
Sometimes I've been too soft, sometimes I've been too hard, sometimes I've fought too little, sometimes I've fought too much, so, it's a tough balance, but... Or are you saying... you have to do what I did, to some degree?
That's a good point.
I think I'm not coming at it with enough humility.
So I'm not taking responsibility for the fact that I have made inefficient decisions.
Well, I mean, to take a silly example, like if I'm 350 pounds and I say to my slender girlfriend, you have to follow my diet, wouldn't that look a little nutty?
So if you have made some bad decisions, as again, we all have.
Every one of us who's involved in improving the world, especially at a moral level, has made bad decisions.
But they're only really bad decisions if we don't learn from them in hindsight.
But if you were to go and say, look, I, you know, with all humility, I tried taking this approach with friends and family.
I've had almost no effect and I've alienated and annoyed a lot of people.
I think that your girlfriend can listen to that because you're coming at her with humility saying,
I don't know how to change the world.
I don't even know how to change my world!
Now, I know that these things are true.
I don't know how to get people to believe them.
I mean, clearly, even with my own family, with close friends, I've had barely any effect.
So, I don't know what we should do with these beliefs.
Well, I'm kind of tortured because I know that they're true, but I don't know how to get people to believe them.
And because I don't know how to get people to believe them, the last thing I'd ever do is tell you what you should do with these beliefs.
But they are true!
Nonetheless, it's one of these crazy things, right?
2 and 2 make 4, and everyone says 2 and 2 makes blue cheese or something, right?
And yet it's still 2 and 2 make 4.
I think if you approach it with humility, and I think humility, and I still have to remind myself of this all the time, right?
So again, you know, we all have to be patient with each other because it's tough to change the world.
I think if you approach it with humility and say,
Yeah, I've kind of faffed this up to some degree, and I've made some real mistakes, I've had some progress, I've learned a lot, but I can't tell you how to change people's minds, because I don't know exactly how to do it.
I do know that the stuff I've done has been negative, like there's better things I could have done with my time, and annoying people isn't a great way to get them to accept your perspectives.
But if you talk about the emotions and say, look, I have this desperate need for people to accept the truth, like I really, I'm desperate because otherwise I feel alone and I feel like I'm surrounded by people who don't care for the truth, who don't care for me as much as they should.
That's also true.
Yeah, I have this emotional need for people to, you know, I tell you, I was, this is many years ago,
The guy who introduced me to objectivism, right?
The guy who introduced me to objectivism, I met up with him, I think it was, this is probably 15 years after we were teenagers.
I met up with him in California.
He was renting an apartment with his wife.
This is before they had children.
And he and I were standing on this balcony,
Looking out on a beautiful California evening, and I desperately wanted to ask him if he still accepted the basic tenets of objectivism.
I was too scared to ask.
And I remember you felt the same thing at times.
I was too scared to ask because
If he'd said, oh, objectivism, gosh, that was just something I played around with as a teenager.
I've moved far beyond that now, right?
I'd feel crushed.
Cause then you sort of feel left behind and you haven't out, like you're still playing with Legos at the age of 30 or something like that.
You just feel like shamed, embarrassed, humiliated, left behind.
And I chickened out of asking him that, though I really wanted to.
And.
It's tough, you know, because you really want people, and then there were times when I would go to, say, objectivist meetups, and the people there would be like, I really don't like you guys.
Like, you don't seem to be very warm, or friendly, or curious, or there's not a whole lot of self-knowledge around, and so on, right?
And so, you know, trying to find a philosophical home is really, really tough.
And I think that part of you might want to be imposing standards that will create this for you.
And I think you tried that already for half a decade and it didn't work.
And I think you might be trying that with your girlfriend.
And I don't think it's going to work.
Because she's going to say, you don't have empirical credibility with me on how to get people to change
Thank you!
For half a decade trying to get some business started and had burned through a million dollars and still wasn't showing a profit.
In fact, he'd barely made any money in five years straight.
He'd burned through a million dollars and barely made any money.
And he was demanding that you join his business?
What would you say?
No, thank you.
Yeah, like, what?
Now, if he were to say, listen, I've really thought about this.
I kind of don't know what I'm doing.
I have this idea.
I'm kind of desperate to succeed in business.
Maybe you'd give him some advice.
Maybe you'd look a little, but if he was just like, well, you've got to come on board.
This is the best business ever.
I know exactly what I'm doing.
You'd be like, well, no, you barely sold anything.
And you spent half a decade through a million dollars, right?
Yes, but in that case, the point of the business is to make money, whereas the point of philosophy is just being correct.
You don't have to... No, no, no, no!
The point of philosophy...
Of course, it's necessary to be correct, but the purpose of philosophy, as you've been practicing it, which I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just really trying to wrap myself into your world here, right?
The point of philosophy, as you've been practicing it, is to change people's minds, right?
Because you can be correct all on your own!
Is that fair?
Yes.
So you've been trying to change people's minds.
I get a lot of value from philosophy, even if I don't change people's minds.
I get that.
And that's why I said, as you've been practicing it, not as you've been researching it or thinking about it, that a lot of the practice that you've had in the realm of philosophy has been to try to change people's minds.
And you've talked, I assume, mostly to people who were the closest to you, right?
Yes.
And you failed.
And there's no shame in that, at all.
But it's a fact, right?
Yeah.
No, I mean, I'm not trying to put you down or anything.
No, no, no.
I admire you for trying, I really do.
But you failed, right?
And if it's any consolation, I also failed.
You know?
I'm pretty good at this stuff.
I still completely flamed out.
So it just may not... It may be that you just can't start with the people closest to you because there's too much ego in history.
I don't know.
Whatever, right?
And parents are very unlikely to take moral instruction from their children, because parents are so used to morally instructing their children that if their children correct them, it means that they were parenting wrong, and that's pretty tough for people to accept, right?
To accept that you have not achieved what you wanted to achieve gives the humility to say to your girlfriend, listen, it's really important to me that you accept the truth.
Now, the truth isn't the truth because I say it.
Here's my arguments, and you can take time to think about them, but I need to know that we can reason together.
Because, and it's not about the non-aggression principle, and it's not about how DROs provide private defense in a multinational environment, and it's not about how court systems work in the absence of the state, because that's not something we're ever going to deal with in the real world, in our lives.
What is important to me is that we can reason together, because we're always going to end up disagreeing, at times, in our marriage.
It's inevitable, right?
How are we going to resolve these disagreements?
Now, us talking about Ancapistan, or the non-aggression principle of property rights, or whatever, or peaceful parenting, is a way for us to figure out how we resolve our differences.
Now, if reason and evidence resolves our differences, fantastic!
Then we can have a very happy and wonderful
Marriage.
And listen, I can tell you this.
I've been married for 21 years to a woman who's very rational, and we have almost no conflicts, and whatever we do, we resolve according to reason, and it's wonderful.
So it really does work.
But it's not so much about, you've got to become
A prophet of NCAP, right?
You've got to go out and proselytize to the masses.
But it is important to me, and it's not just important to me for, like, my personal emotional thing, although the emotions do run very strong, but it's important to me that we reason together, we reason with our children, and we can have a happy, peaceful marriage where disagreements don't escalate into aggression.
Now, I have been aggressive with my family about my beliefs, and that's not been ideal, and clearly it has not changed their minds, so... But it's not so much about the belief system, which I think she is going to view as it puts a big moat between you and everyone else, but it's about... And listen, I don't expect to reason with everyone in our lives, but I do expect to reason with each other.
And if we can commit to reasoning with each other,
That's the basis of a peaceful and happy marriage, and then we get to reason with our children, and so on, right?
And I am an advocate of the non-aggression principle.
That means we can't mutilate our children's penises.
Like, we can't mutilate our boys' penises.
Like, that's just not
Now, if they become adults, and they want to circumcise themselves, well, that's self-ownership, and they can, if they want to get a tattoo, like we can't tattoo our babies if they want to tattoo themselves as adults, I hope they won't, but they can, because that's self-ownership, but I can't inflict that on them.
I mean, that's, you know, I would assume that to some degree that's non-negotiable, because I think that kind of stuff is really horrendous for children.
So, for boys.
And, you know, she may have a little trouble understanding it, but it's like, okay, well, imagine if I wanted to genitally mutilate your daughters, right?
Our little girls, our babies, right?
That would be awful, right?
And that's the same thing.
So, I mean, there's some things which may not be negotiable, right?
But definitely, it's like our disagreements are dry.
It's not a dry run for how we're going to alienate everyone in our lives, and I'm going to be this table-pounding ANCAP warrior that's going to drive everyone away, and we're going to end up isolated in a cave somewhere.
But I do have this emotional need, and it has been frustrated by people in my life, for people to agree with me.
Of course, if you think that you're in the right, and also that morals and virtues are involved, then of course you want people to agree with you.
If you had a relative who was dying of some illness, you would be desperate for them to take a medicine that would cure them.
And if they thought that medicine was poison and they refused to take it, that would be very frustrating.
So that's kind of where I've been in terms of the truth and my family.
And I don't expect you to go and do what I did.
In fact, I would argue that you shouldn't do what I did because it didn't work.
And it was frustrating for everyone involved and it didn't make the progress that I wanted.
But between us, it's not about ANCAP, it's not about property rights, it's not about the non-aggression principle.
It's about us reasoning our way through our disagreements.
And I can understand that if you look at me and say, well, you've got to do what I do!
And you see this guy, you know, he's battled a lot for very little purpose and effect other than to alienate friends and family.
And everyone's less happy as a result, and then you say... And then he says to me, hey, you gotta do what I do!
Uh... Right?
That wouldn't be very tempting.
At all.
And so, I think if you approach her from that standpoint, you might be surprised at how open to talking about it she is.
But I think right now she's saying, come and do what I do, and she just looks at it empirically and says, that just makes everyone miserable and I don't want to do that.
Yeah.
That's a good point.
A very, very good point.
That's a lot of food for thought.
Well, yeah, that would be my approach.
Of course, if, you know, if she wants to chat or whatever, I'm certainly happy if you both want to chat.
But I think if you take that approach, you may be really surprised.
I mean, she sounds like a great woman in so many ways.
And it sounds like a great mother to your kids, which is also obviously very important.
And maybe some more of the values and philosophy is going to come from you, the father, rather than her, the mother.
She's going to bring certain skills to the table as a mother, and you're going to bring certain skills together to the table as a father, and they don't have to be the same.
Obviously, right?
I mean, you're not looking for a man with a vagina, right?
You're looking for a woman, which means that she's going to have complementary skills to you.
And there's some things my daughter learns from my wife, and some things that she learns more from me, and I think that's natural, and that's kind of how it should be, because we can't just photocopy each other and say that we're the same.
So, I think if you approach it from that standpoint, with the humility and acknowledging where things didn't work out for you and that you wouldn't want to reproduce that in her life, you might be surprised how receptive she is to the ideas if she doesn't look at complete social disaster coming from adopting these ideas, if that makes sense.
And also, it makes me appreciate her because she's correct in identifying that.
Well, Ashley, you've got to have the respect for her to say, well, tell me why, like, what is this making you feel when I talk about this, and, you know, tell me everything that you think I might have done wrong, and like, just be really open to that kind of feedback, because a lot of conflict is just denying legitimate feedback, right?
And she probably has some really good instincts about what you're doing socially that could be incredibly helpful to you, and she's just not letting those, because she's hanging onto those, which is actually, it's a good kind of integrity, if that makes sense.
All right.
All right.
Well, go talk to her.
What the hell are you still talking to me for?
Well, thank you.
Well, I think you touched on a very important point.
Thank you very much.
You're very welcome.
I hope you'll let me know how it goes, and I obviously wish you the very best, and it sounds like you've got a very good woman in your environment, which is fantastic, and I certainly wish you both the best.
And yeah, please let me know how it goes.
I'd love to hear.
Okay, man.
Thank you very, very much.
I very much appreciate it, and I will let you know.
