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Feb. 5, 2024 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

01:58:58

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	I think I wanted to chat with you and kind of what I talked about, um, kind of getting this stuck in this middler zone of life of kind of avoiding knowing how to avoid bad relationships, but stuck and finding good relationships are meeting good people in life.
	That's kind of what I'd like to focus on.
	All right.
	Do you want to give me some backstory?
	Oh, backstory.
	Um, I've gone, I'm getting close to 40 years old now.
	I've kind of had, uh,
	Uh, just failed relationships in the past, uh, with women, um, kind of through your show helped identify, um, kind of the, what, what the bad qualities I was getting into the relationships I was getting into and, um, just kind of stuck in this middle zone where I think I've eliminated, um, bad parts of my life or bad relationships.
	And now I'm kind of just kind of stuck in this, or kind of how I wrote about this desert of just kind of on the cusp of something, but you're, you just don't see it yet.
	Welcome to the desert of the real.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	Okay.
	Where do you want, do you want to start childhood?
	Do you want to start recent relationships?
	What's best for you?
	Uh, we can start, uh, childhood.
	Yeah.
	How do you want to go with that?
	So do you want a marriage like your parents?
	Uh, no, I do not.
	Well, there's your first thing, right?
	There's your first challenge, right?
	Okay.
	So what was going on with your parents' marriage that it was not great?
	Um, I think that, well, they're still married.
	I think, um, they get along, but being raised, it was both working parents.
	Um, and I didn't really have much relationship with either one of them growing up, uh, really.
	And I kind of felt, um, even to this day, it's kind of what
	They're into and they don't really care much or show much interest in what I do or you know now or when I was a kid.
	Were you in daycare early or did your mom stay home at all?
	What's that, sorry?
	Were you in daycare early or did your mom stay home at all?
	I, I was in daycare early.
	Yeah, not much.
	I, that's all I remember as a kid really is daycare from, from start till going to different people's houses after school.
	And kind of how you've talked about, there's big chunks of kind of childhood where it just kind of blanked out of not, not really ever really doing anything.
	Like, I don't think I ever had a real relationship with my father outside of doing what he wanted to do.
	Okay, so when you were a kid, I mean, obviously during the weekday you were in daycares or whatever, but when you got older, I mean, there's weekends and holidays and all of that, and March break, were your parents around for any of that stuff?
	They were around, but mainly I just remember being left alone and doing things as a kid around, you know, with friends or siblings growing up, but never... we'd go on vacations and stuff, but my
	My father was just very, very impatient, real quick to anger, um, could kind of the type that can go from zero to just berserk or screaming rage like that.
	Oh, so it was like a bully.
	Yes, very much so, yeah.
	So it's not that he's angry.
	I mean, it's this important thing, and again, it's your life, so if I'm wrong, obviously tell me, but when people go from zero to rage, it's a bully tactic.
	It's not an organic kind of slow, like an organic anger.
	It's like, okay, well, I'll get my way if I scream, so I'll scream.
	Okay, yeah.
	And that's how he was.
	And I butted heads a lot when I was a kid, because I didn't quite understand it, why.
	But I mean, it would go, he's a pretty sizable guy, and as a kid, really big, really strong.
	And like you said, it was bullying tactics.
	Yeah, and the problem, of course, is that if you associate that with anger, then it
	It means it's tougher for you to get angry, right?
	Because you associate anger with abuse and therefore you might be a little more compliant or whatever it is.
	But if you say, OK, well, he just he was a scary bully who intimidated people to get what he wants.
	I mean, that's kind of pathetic, particularly when it's directed against children.
	And it doesn't really have anything to do with anger as a healthy emotion.
	Uh, gotcha.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And I just felt even it growing up like lots and lots of stress because of that.
	Like I'd get, you know, like, like the jitters or the shakes just from that constant.
	It was just from zero to just rage.
	And it was basically, yeah, if he were doing something that, that was against his wishes or what he wanted to do, it was just a way to get you to comply.
	And I think.
	To this day, when people do that to me at work, or on the job, or with what I do, I instantly, yeah, I could match that level, but I don't want to.
	Like, I know it's there, but it's not... Oh, you mean like the sort of fight back stuff?
	Yeah, yeah, where they get in your face.
	I work in a lot of different construction jobs, and that tactic's used a lot, and I just have zero tolerance for it.
	I don't know, it just snaps me back to those feelings of just being pushed around.
	Knowing now, after listening to you for several years, that's just not the way you treat people.
	Several years?
	Wait, are you saying there were several years you didn't listen?
	No, I'm just kidding.
	You bully your kids, you're making their life unnecessarily difficult because it means that assertiveness becomes stressful, really stressful, right?
	Yeah, that's what I noticed, and I think that's what happened during stressful times of my life or in stressful relationships that I found mimicked that relationship.
	Those same symptoms would happen, like that unconscious letting me know I'm in a bad situation or a bad relationship.
	And have you ever had a chance to talk to – well, of course you've had the chance, but did you ever end up talking to him about this?
	I have tried, but it's always deflected or again blocked.
	And if I bring it up with family members, it's the same thing.
	The excuse is you got to deal with him, not the other way around.
	And so it's always like that.
	Oh, like, like you talked about, it's easier for the bully people to work around the bully than the bully having to change their ways.
	So if I bring it up to family members... They figure out who's the nicest and most reasonable person and screw that person's interests, right?
	Yeah, and then it feels like a part of you is dying or being, yeah, subdued and you're not the one causing it.
	So when you talk about it with your dad, what happens?
	Or when you try to?
	Just immediately shut down.
	I remember as a kid, you'd try to talk and they'd turn the TV up.
	Just any way to drown you out.
	Just basically knowing that, you know, anything, if it concerns, it's not a concern to him, it's just my problem.
	Huh.
	Like literally would just turn the volume up until you stop talking?
	Like literally I talk, like as we, if we were talking right now, he would just crank, keep turning the volume up until, you know, the hitting that rage and, and yelling and, you know, shut up.
	Sort of.
	So if you were to say, dad, it's kind of rude to.
	It's kind of rude to raise the volume while I'm trying to talk to you.
	Could you please turn that off?
	Like, would he comply or would he, like, just turn it up and tell you to F off or whatever?
	Yeah, just keep turning it up and F off.
	It's like there's defined clear no-go zones.
	And it's like I've, you know, butted my head against those enough.
	So a bully and a coward.
	Excellent.
	Of course, that's almost predictable, right?
	And what did your mom say about all of this?
	Very similar.
	It's just kind of like, I have, it's,
	Like, it was always like, kind of, I caused the outburst, or I was responsible.
	So, I kind of grew up, kind of, you know, you kind of know what you can and can't cross.
	You kind of adapt as a kid on how to handle those, handle that.
	Like, you know when you're going to reach that point, and it's going to, you're going to face the backlash or the consequences.
	Right.
	Like if you poke the bear and the bear takes a swipe at you, maybe don't poke the bear.
	Like it's not the bear's fault, right?
	Yeah.
	And it was always, there was always an excuse for the, for his reactions to me, but you know, that I had to change, but never, you know, a meeting in the middle or any, you know, genuine interest or anything that I had almost like a, like you had talked about on your shows, like a animosity towards me, I guess, because I tend to pick up things quicker.
	Um, and, and, you know, did, did well in school and, and on jobs when we worked together.
	And it was always seemed like there was like an animosity or a jealousy.
	Um, that was annoying rather than if I felt like if I was a father and my son was doing better than me or doing well, like you'd encourage that there was never that encouragement.
	It was just, well, I mean, as, as a sort of, uh, as a dad, it's like, it's a little surprising.
	When that happens.
	It is, of course, inevitable.
	I mean, there's things that my daughter is better than me at by now.
	And what it does is it gives you that slight chill of mortality because it's like, oh yeah, she's here to replace me.
	She's not here to hang out with me forever.
	She's here to replace me because I'm going to die.
	And so when your kids get better than you at things, it sort of brings up that chill, you know, mortality thing.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I know you've talked about that in the past, but just, yeah, dealing with that, it just, uh, yeah, I just never, I don't know, never knew how to handle that or just kind of that.
	Sorry.
	You never knew how to handle that?
	Or just how to deal with it or how to deal with that type of relationship with, with your, with your father, um, like you're, you're doing well, but there's no real interest other than if, if,
	It's helping them for what they want done, like work-wise or around the house or that sort of thing.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And how did your parents get along?
	They get along fine.
	It's just, but it's, it, there's just a lot of that.
	Oh, you're kidding me, dude.
	Oh, you're so smart.
	You're so smart.
	And yet you say things like this.
	Get along fine?
	Your father's a bully, and your mother allows him to bully her child, but they get along just fine?
	Come on!
	No, what I mean is, it's not a relationship I'd want, but I don't, you know, it's their relationship.
	Okay, so now telling me that it's their relationship.
	You already told me it's the relationship they don't want.
	I don't mean this with any negativity.
	I'm just sort of pointing it out, right?
	So saying, theirs isn't the relationship I want.
	Well, you already told me that.
	That's the basis of this entire conversation.
	And it's their relationship.
	I mean, do you think I don't know that?
	I just asked about their relationship, so remind me that it's their relationship.
	So this is all defensive stuff, right?
	Because you have this thing like they get along fine.
	How is that?
	Are you saying that somebody who can be a bully to his child and somebody who enables bullying of that child and somebody I'm sure that he would bully your mom as well too, right?
	Somebody who's married to a bully who also bullies children and who attacks the self-esteem and self-interest of the most reasonable person in order to appease the nastiest person around.
	Are you saying someone like that can just they can just get along fine?
	No, I don't, yeah, I see what you're saying.
	I don't, I don't think it's healthy.
	I don't, I don't like it.
	And that's why I've kind of, I've separated from it, um, in large part.
	And so I get what you're saying and I agree with you.
	Okay.
	So yeah.
	And so this is part of the contradiction, because if you say it's possible to be really nasty and have a decent relationship,
	Then I need to make some foundational arguments towards you.
	Okay.
	No, yes, I agree.
	Their relationship to me is not healthy.
	I don't, I don't.
	You or objectively?
	Objectively.
	I'd say it's not a, it's not a healthy relationship.
	Okay.
	So what aspects of their relationship is unhealthy?
	I'd say just inability to just have, uh, conversations without yelling, you know, without the bullying tactics of just blowing up.
	Cause that zero to blow up.
	It happens as well between them.
	Uh, is it both of them blowing up?
	Uh, more so my father and then my mom from time to time, but she's kind of, it seemed like more of like an enabler.
	Like her, her mother would be very similar to, to who she married, had, had that same sort of bullying tactic.
	And I think she's more of like an enabler.
	But you're saying that sometimes she does blow up?
	Uh, well, yeah, we'll kind of, yeah.
	Sometimes.
	Yeah.
	And what's the sort of, is it 60-40, 70-30, 80-20, 90-10 in terms of your dad or your mom blowing up?
	Probably my dad more so.
	It's just, yeah, she kind of, it's just probably 80-20.
	80-20.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And how has their relationship changed, if at all, over the years?
	Honestly, I think it's the same as I've always known it.
	That kind of dynamic, and it's just that he's still that same way of just that kind of that tactic of just blowing up.
	And evidently that was how his father, from talking to other people in the family, that was how his father was.
	But even worse is what I've been told by talking to other people in the family.
	Right.
	And was there any discipline or rules outside of blowing up?
	Did they have sort of standards that they expected you to maintain?
	And if not, other than the yelling stuff or the screaming stuff, what were the punishments?
	Punishments?
	Yeah, it could be threats, physical, yeah, get backhanded.
	I remember getting thrown against the wall for being out of line once.
	How old were you?
	I was probably
	10.
	Wow.
	You were pretty little then still.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Well, I also remember from talking to my brother, um, when we were left alone, I like, I have blocks that are blacked out and from growing up, but he remembers me getting my dad, getting mad and throwing toys at me when I was like a baby, when my mom would leave and have to do something.
	Cause I'd be crying, um, to, uh, uh, cause she was gone.
	So he just could never control his temper.
	Okay.
	Do you need me to say this as well?
	I mean, you've been listening for a couple of years.
	So when you say that your father could never control his temper, that's not true.
	Gotcha.
	You're right.
	You're right.
	So give me some situations in which your father had absolutely no problem controlling his temper.
	No, you are totally right.
	And I was going to bring this up.
	Yeah, he could control his temper with people.
	His same size, people in the business world, everyone where he had to, where there would be consequences for bad actions.
	Yeah, where he might face negative consequences.
	He had absolutely no problem putting a smile on his face and restraining his temper, this, that, and the other, right?
	And this is what I mean when I say it's not organic.
	Right.
	So organic stuff.
	It's like somebody who fakes pain, you know, like, you know, they're faking pain because then someone comes and says, Hey, let's play your favorite sport.
	They're like, jump up and say, Hey, I'm feeling better.
	Right.
	It's instantaneous.
	It's not deep.
	Right.
	So.
	Okay.
	So yeah, it's a bully tactic and it's deployed against people who can't inflict any negative consequences on him.
	I mean, my mother was sweet as sugar in company, in public, was a model mother, never raised her voice, was always encouraging and positive and sweet.
	And oh yeah, she knew exactly how to do it.
	Oh yeah, no, it was great camouflage.
	So yeah, I just sort of want to point that out that he was always in perfect control of his temper.
	Yeah, when it suited him, or it was to his advantage, yes, he could be perfectly tempered and treat people right.
	Yeah, he's like that shoplifter.
	I don't know if you've seen these videos.
	There's some shoplifter in a store, and he's in the process of stealing something, and then he looks up and he sees the security camera, and then he just puts it back and
	You know, touches his forehead and strolls off, right?
	Whoops, you know?
	So he's perfectly capable of not stealing something.
	It's just that he'll steal it once he sees that he's on camera.
	He puts it back, right?
	Because there's going to be negative consequences for him because he could be seen.
	Yeah.
	Correct.
	Correct.
	So yeah, that's, that's just a, it's like, oh, he has no, he has no capacity to respect property rights.
	He has no capacity to not steal.
	It's like, sure he does.
	Uh, because he, we see it, you know, and you probably saw it a thousand times or more, you know, where something that would get you thrown against the wall at home happens in public and he doesn't do anything.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And it's kind of that Mike makes right sort of thing.
	And yeah, just, I don't know, like I didn't,
	I didn't think I was a bad kid in that I didn't, I wasn't doing, you know, heinous things, uh, growing up, but to, to, you know, deal with that or get treated like that, I guess.
	And then, yeah, you kind of see that hypocrisy and you don't have respect for that.
	Even as a kid, you know, you know, that that's not, not right.
	Or that's not how you treat people.
	Well, I mean, you, he threw a, a 10 year old little boy against the wall, right?
	Yeah.
	Um, I feel like your emotions are not, but I think I'm more outraged than you are about this.
	So I'm just trying to figure out where you are emotionally.
	Oh no, no, no.
	I, it, it, it bothers me quite a bit.
	It's just, I try to stay a little calmer.
	Like, no, I know that it's a.
	That that relationship is still has consequences in my life, the dealing with that.
	But no, I don't accept it at all.
	And it's been kind of a hurdle I've been getting getting over of not self blaming myself for it.
	Like I used to think that, you know, it was
	The lack of a relationship was somehow my fault for not doing enough, and I've gotten to that point where it's like, no, it's not.
	It wouldn't have changed if it was me or if it was another son.
	It's just the way he was going to act.
	Okay, so the reason that I'm bringing this up is that this call is about passion, in my mind, right?
	Whether I'm right or wrong, we'll see.
	But when someone comes and says, I'm not falling in love, what's lacking?
	Passion.
	Right.
	And so if passion is lacking, it means emotion.
	Emotional expression is lacking.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Because if you can't express a passion for a woman, then she's not going to be very attracted to you.
	Because for a woman, a man's passion is her security.
	Okay.
	For a woman, her man's passion for her is her security.
	Now, of course, her passion for you is your security, but we're just talking, you know, male to female.
	So why does a woman need your passion so much?
	To know you're interested, to know that you're there to protect, provide, care for.
	Yeah, your passion is your pair bond.
	Yeah, that's the glue.
	So if you can't show passion,
	And I've been listening sort of very carefully, as I always do, right?
	But to your demeanor, your conversation, any emotional connection in your voice.
	Again, you know, we can't see each other, but I'm pretty good at doing this by voice.
	And what's not here, what's not here is passion, is emotion, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And so when I say to you, where are your emotions?
	And you say, well, I'm trying to stay calm.
	Well, I would suggest that staying calm is the entire fucking problem.
	Because if you stay calm, you stay aloof, you stay distant, you stay emotionally unavailable, women aren't going to fall for you.
	They're not going to fall in love with you, they're not going to, I would assume, be that attracted to you because your heart is not available for them to feel secure, to feel surrounded by, to feel attached to.
	Got it.
	Yes, yes.
	Again, I could be wrong, but that's my sort of first thought about when you say, no, no, I'm trying to stay unemotional, so I was trying to stay calm.
	It's like, no, no, that's the problem, I think.
	Well, no, that's a good point.
	No, because whenever there was any expression of emotion or passion or anything like that, it was met with indifference or a negative or a slight.
	Well, it goes all the way back to daycare, right?
	You didn't want to go to daycare.
	I worked in a daycare.
	No kid wants to go to daycare.
	They don't want to.
	I mean, unless it's total hell at home, in which case they have other big traumas to deal with, right?
	Yeah.
	So you didn't want to go to daycare, and what did your passion achieve for you?
	Just still going to daycare.
	Yeah, and you missed your mom, and you would be crying about missing your mom, and what would your dad do?
	Yeah.
	And you'd meet punishment.
	You'd get punishment.
	Right.
	So passion is punishment.
	Okay.
	I'm having trouble pair bonding.
	That's why I called.
	Yeah.
	Thank you.
	And we are 15 minutes and done.
	I'm just kidding.
	Right.
	So, no, but that's, that's like when you're surrounded by punitive assholes, what they do is they use your emotions against you.
	Okay.
	Right.
	So if, if you're vulnerable, they know how to hurt you.
	If you're upset, then they escalate until your emotions are crushed.
	I mean, I would also argue your father doesn't feel much genuine emotion either because bullying is not an emotion.
	It's a dominance tactic.
	It's not a feeling.
	It's not a passion.
	So, your father probably doesn't have any substantive or general emotions.
	Your mother probably doesn't have any substantive or general emotions.
	And therefore, when you have passions, it reminds them of what they don't have.
	And therefore, their goal is not to unlock their own feeling, but to lock up yours, if that makes sense.
	Yeah, that's kind of, yeah, that's how it's always felt to me without being able to put it in those words.
	But yeah, whenever, yeah, it was just kind of that indifference or that just kind of stopping you in your tracks.
	And yeah, just very deflating.
	Well, and then you get stuck in this terrible paradox, which is in order to have a, quote, relationship with your parents, you have to not have any genuine or deep emotions.
	But genuine and deep emotions are foundational to having a relationship.
	You're supposed to love your parents, but love is a genuine and deep emotion.
	And if your parents punish you for having genuine and deep emotions,
	Then you have to, in order to maintain your security as a child, you have to destroy that which will give you security as an adult, which is deep and genuine emotions.
	You have to destroy your adult capacity to pair bond in order to retain
	The provision of resources and food, shelter, whatever it is, from your parents.
	And so it's a pretty brutal process to go through.
	And it seems to me that it would make sense exactly as to where you are in your life at the moment.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	No, that sounds dead on.
	All right.
	So what were your teen years like in this environment?
	And I guess when you began to be drawn towards girls?
	Uh, teen years I was, I grew up, it was again, kind of a lot of just parents not being around a lot of, um, I have older brothers, a lot of older kids and it kind of felt like Lord of the Flies.
	Um, uh, in terms of, uh, peers, you know, a lot of just same, same thing, kind of bully dynamics with older kids.
	Um, not a lot of adult supervision.
	Um, so I kinda.
	To get away from that, I tended to do kind of more solo endeavors, you know, I got into bike riding, lifting weights, that sort of thing.
	And was your brother, I guess like a lot of older brothers, like, hey, they're my friends, go find your own friends and stop bothering me and get out and, you know?
	Yeah, very similar, like what he was, yeah, it was kind of,
	It seemed like his friends took priority back then, you know, the whole being cool and all that.
	And there was a lot of, looking back, just not a lot of good kids that, you know, they just did a lot of hooligan type stuff.
	Oh, you mean your brother's friends?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Right, right.
	Some were okay, but most, yeah, they're, you know, some weren't on the level.
	They just, again, it was similar.
	Like they didn't, they were a good five years older than me.
	And you know, that some of them, I get hit by them, like, you know, picking on me cause I was smaller when I was bigger for my age, but you know, they still had the, you know, five to seven years, uh, age advantage.
	Oh yeah.
	It's like a different species, like 12 to 17.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So I got in that kind of, you had to outrun or outgun, and it was just a lot of outrunning and just, you know, again, knowing who to stay away from that, you know, you could, you know.
	Um, that were just, yes, bullies, I guess, for lack of a better word.
	And did you have any affection or tenderness or protection or, uh, that from your, from your brother?
	Uh, at that age?
	No, not really.
	No, he was very similar to my dad in terms of just that, uh, real hot headedness.
	Was he somebody who enjoyed teasing or messing with you, or was it mostly just you're in the way of me being cool with my friends?
	In the way, and then occasionally we'd butt heads and get in a physical altercation, but he was just a lot bigger and stronger, so I didn't really stand a chance back then.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Okay.
	And girls?
	Uh, girls, I, uh, hung out with in junior high and high school dated, um, had a long-term relationship in, in college, but we ended up going to different schools and ended up, uh, breaking up, uh, in grad school, kind of went our separate ways in life.
	Um, there cause the distance and just kind of grew apart.
	How long was that relationship?
	That was, uh, six years.
	Wow.
	Okay.
	So tell me about that.
	Why didn't you guys get married?
	Yeah, no, you should or shouldn't have.
	I'm just curious about the arc.
	I think it was, we put, uh, school and careers ahead of, uh, the relationship and she ended up wanting to do something in a, in a different field and the field I got into, um,
	They just didn't align, so we were just going in different directions, career-wise.
	And back then, I think we both put the career ahead of the relationship.
	Okay.
	That doesn't answer why you put the career ahead of the relationship.
	That's an explanation without a causality, if that makes sense.
	Oh, gotcha!
	Why did the volcano erupt?
	Well, lava came out of it.
	It's like, yes, that's what happened, but why?
	Yeah, well, I'd say I was focused on, when I was younger, more in developing a career and getting into an industry.
	And I think that became more of my focus than the actual relationship.
	I ask you for a more detailed explanation and you just repeat what you said!
	I'm sorry!
	Well, you know, we put careers above relationships.
	Well, why?
	Well, I put career above relationships.
	It's like, yes, but why?
	Why?
	Why would you put that priority up?
	You know, I thought about that and I don't know specifically why.
	I think it was just to get established financially and
	Uh, the career going, but maybe just in that part of my life, I wasn't as focused on developing a healthy relationship.
	Um, I, I, you know, it's kind of a. Right.
	So now instead of telling me why you prioritize other things, you're now telling me what you prioritize and it's fine if you don't know that's, that's fine.
	Right.
	But let's at least sit in that space of you don't know why you didn't prioritize that relationship.
	Right.
	Yeah, I'd say for me, my priority wasn't family and kids and that.
	No, no, I didn't say any of that.
	I said the relationship.
	Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
	Okay, we'll go with I don't know at this point.
	And how long did it take to unravel and how did it end?
	It took to unravel, we were separated by
	When we were going to different schools, so it ended, it was amicable and it wasn't hostile or anything like that.
	It was terrible.
	I mean, so it ended kind of blandly.
	Yeah, it kind of went out with a whimper.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	No one's heart got broken.
	Nobody was on their knees, sobbing and crying for things to continue.
	Nobody threw their, threw their passion into the, into the ring or anything.
	It was just like, well, this really doesn't make a Excel spreadsheet type optimal calculation for us to continue.
	So shake hands and pot.
	Yeah, it sounds like that, but no, I had the broken heart and the, and the, and the
	The feelings and the passion.
	Okay, okay, so good.
	So we got we got some real emotion here.
	Fantastic.
	Okay.
	So not fantastic that it's broken heart, but fantastic that it's it's emotion.
	All right.
	So, sorry, was it she who wanted to end it?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	And did you so you wanted it obviously to keep going?
	And what did you do to try and keep it going?
	I was looking at a means to get my career and hers in the same location, but it was basically a lot of ultimatums that needed to be met that were impossible to do after a certain point.
	Or not impossible, but just weren't going to work out.
	I'm sorry, that's quite the words, Alan.
	So she had ultimatums towards you?
	Yeah.
	Sorry, what were those ultimatums?
	Of where we were going to live, what she was going to do, and she was going to, basically it turned into she was going to do what she was going to do, and I had to fit in with that.
	And there was no compromise or a way to make it, yeah, compromise or make it work.
	It was kind of, yeah, like an ultimatum.
	So, she wanted you to move where she was, and she wanted you to find a job in the town she was at, and is that the thing?
	Yes, yes.
	So, I would assume, tell me if I'm wrong of course, you know that, that her giving you these ultimatums made you feel pretty unloved, right?
	Yes, yes.
	If my wife had to move to the Arctic, do you know what I would do?
	What would I do?
	You'd move there.
	I'd move to the Arctic!
	Absolutely.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Absolutely.
	I'm a big one for, like, just declare your passions and find a way to make it work and, you know, whatever you need to do, you do.
	So she gave you all these ultimatums.
	Do you think that the ultimatums were unconsciously designed to drive you away?
	Or do you think, in other words, if you had fulfilled them, would she have found some other problem?
	Or do you think they were genuine?
	Like, if you do this, you've slain the dragon, you've proven your love, and we can get it on?
	I think they were put together to promote the breakup, because I think she eventually was seeing somebody else towards the end of the relationship.
	So I think that was... Were you going to drop that in the mix at any time, or were you just waiting for me to... Well, I didn't... It was amicable, but she was cheating on me.
	Well, yeah, but I found that out later, you know, at the time I didn't.
	So?
	What the hell does that matter?
	That's even worse!
	No, you're right.
	No, it sucked.
	It did suck.
	And yeah, once that happened, that was when I knew it was like, you know, none of that, meeting all that stuff, that was just, those were just barriers put up with the decision.
	So, holy shit, hang on.
	So, Jesus, so she starts dating some other guy.
	She's sleeping with some other guy, we assume.
	And she doesn't tell you, but what she does is she creates ultimatums that are very tough to enact with no intention of continuing the relationship so that you take the blame for things not working.
	Yeah.
	What a uber bitch move that is, eh?
	Yeah.
	And I think that's what I felt.
	That's what I felt at the time.
	So, but yeah, and it, and yeah, that's why it was like, yeah, it was over.
	So I didn't chase or pursue or anything.
	It was, you know, the writing was on the wall.
	And so you guys were going out for six years.
	When did she get the himbo?
	I don't know.
	Sometime when, you know, we were both in grad school, and I know that I think they ended up getting married and whatnot, but it was just something I kind of just moved on from.
	I didn't want to dwell on it too much.
	Oh yeah, so yeah, avoiding passion, because that's been working out really well.
	So avoid the anger, avoid the upset, avoid the passion, and then be emotionally unavailable for the next woman!
	So I would suggest let's not do that.
	Or let's not.
	Let's try to not do that, right?
	When did you find out that she was cheating on you?
	I just found out that they were dating because they were in the same department.
	But I was living in another town, so I didn't pursue it any further.
	It was done.
	I didn't want to, you know...
	I don't have any issues asking more questions.
	Do you have any Q-tips in the house, just out of curiosity?
	Yes.
	Good.
	Okay.
	I want you to grab them and clean your ears because you keep not answering my question, my friend.
	Okay.
	Sorry.
	Sorry.
	When did you find out she was cheating on you?
	It was after the breakup.
	I know, I know.
	You told me that.
	When did you find out?
	Just give me an answer or tell me you're not going to.
	A few months afterwards.
	Okay, a few months afterwards, you found out that she'd been cheating on you, but you don't know for how long?
	Yeah, I didn't know at all.
	I couldn't tell you a time frame.
	I didn't have a mutual friend to
	But how do you know that they got together before you broke up?
	She was going to parties and doing other things with a group of people that she was in school with.
	So I didn't have evidence, but she was with that guy basically right after we were
	Done.
	So she was hanging around with him and his group before you ended and then she was like right with him when you were done?
	Yes, yes, but I don't have any like verification of the time frame of when they met or anything.
	Right, and of course if you would have called her up
	After you break up and say, you know, I can't believe you're with this guy, she would say, of course, well, I wasn't.
	And how dare you accuse me?
	And that's because you got no proof.
	Yeah.
	I didn't want to deal with the, you know, stop, you know, you're a stalker.
	It's none of your business.
	Blah, blah, blah.
	It was, it was done.
	It was like, you know, there's nothing to, uh, the answers wouldn't change the outcome.
	Well, if it's any consolation, uh, if she cheated on you and married the guy, the marriage will suck.
	Okay.
	It's because there's no trust, right?
	If they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you, right?
	That's the basic rule.
	You don't date a girl with overlap.
	You don't overlap with a boyfriend.
	You don't because you can't trust her.
	Okay, gotcha, gotcha.
	So yeah, their marriage will suck and so on, right?
	So that's...
	And even if she was keeping him waiting in the wings, right?
	Even if she was like, well, no, no, we can't date because I've got this existing relationship.
	And then she provokes a breakup from you.
	And then only then does she quote, start dating him.
	If she's got a guy waiting in the wings that she's planning to date after the end of your relationship, that's still cheating.
	Even if she hasn't kissed him or slept with him or even held his hand, that's still cheating.
	Okay, that's what I think probably was what happened, most likely.
	Yes.
	Yeah, it's still cheating because she's lying to you.
	She is attracted to someone else.
	She's not telling you.
	She's chosen to end the relationship, but she's not being honest and direct.
	So that's cheating.
	Okay.
	When in the...
	I guess it was college to grad school, like four and two.
	And when did the relationship start to fade?
	I think it was, it was during grad school.
	It was the first couple of years or the year, year and a half into grad school.
	Oh, so it was really only bad for like the last six months?
	Uh, it's a year.
	Last year.
	Okay.
	And as things began to fade or it began to fall apart, um, what was your goal or your plan?
	Or you were just sort of like, yeah, you're watching the sand go through the hourglass without wanting to turn it over.
	Like, Oh, I guess we'll just watch this play out.
	Or, or did you want to keep it or what?
	I wanted, I wanted to keep it, but yeah, I got involved with, with, with my career.
	And at that time, I think I was just more focused on, on career rather than the relationship.
	Of trying to fix it.
	I felt like I was moving to fix it, but it felt like it wasn't fixable at that point.
	It was kind of, like I said, you're starting to get more and more excuses and barriers and not seeing each other enough.
	And it was just slowly fading away.
	What was your emotional state as it slowly fades away?
	I guess you had a sense of hopelessness about it, is that right?
	Yeah, I was frustrated because I was working on a degree and then it was falling apart at the same time and it was kind of juggling, do I finish this degree or the relationship?
	And I decided to get the degree and get the career going more so than try to fix things as well, but it wasn't going to happen.
	I think there was just too much distance and time between us.
	Right.
	Now I'll make the case from her standpoint, or rather her ex standpoint, which is look, if this is for your future, right?
	If you date a woman of childbearing age, you date her for a couple of years and you don't put a ring on her finger, she should dump your ass.
	Yes, I agree.
	I see that now.
	Yeah.
	So now she should do it more honestly, she should do it more directly.
	And of course, she should bring up like, I want you to I want to get married.
	I want to have kids or at least look there look in that way or whatever, or I don't want to have kids or whatever.
	But
	Yeah, I mean, as far as, if she was calling me up and she said, you know, well, this is Guy, we've been going out for five years, he's not made any move towards marrying me, he doesn't seem to be that interested, we're in separate cities, you know, I'm turning 32 or whatever, what would I tell her to do?
	Yeah, I'd say it's time to move on, and I agree with that.
	Well, you know, state your deeds and see if you can get your needs met in the relationship.
	But if you want to get married and have kids and this guy won't put a ring on your finger, time's ticking away, right?
	And that's a time that you have that she doesn't, right?
	Correct.
	Yeah.
	And I think that was, yeah.
	Yep.
	I agree.
	So why didn't you propose?
	Now, don't tell me it's because you were focused on your career because we've already gotten that, but why, why didn't you propose?
	Yeah, I think at the time it wasn't as high a priority.
	Why wasn't it as high, don't make me come over there, why wasn't it as high a priority?
	Lack of passion, just not wanting, I don't know if it's just not wanting the same relationship that my folks had.
	Did you have the same relationship that your folks had?
	Doesn't sound like it.
	No, no.
	It sounds like you confused hysteria with passion and then had a dead heart relationship, so to speak, right?
	Okay, gotcha.
	Yes.
	And why do you think she, I wouldn't say put up with it, but why do you think she kept going so long and then just kind of eased out with this play?
	That's a good question.
	I think, I think she just probably, like you said, it kind of the sands of time or, you know, the, she wasn't going to wait along anymore.
	Probably wanted to start a family.
	And, and, but it's like, yeah, we did.
	We never sat down and talked about that, about the family and.
	Did you talk about marriage and kids or anything?
	Yeah, we did.
	We, we had talked about that in the past, but again, it just never, um, it just faded out.
	Cause like I said, like it wasn't, it wasn't a priority.
	Now, do you think if she had, you know, at year four, or maybe even year five, when things started to go south, do you think if she had showed up at your doorstep in tears, like, I love you, and please let's make this work, I'll give up my job, and let's get married, and, you know, and, you know, threw herself into your arms, I mean, how would you have responded to that, do you think?
	Yeah, that would have been, yeah, like you said, passion would show in your, yeah, the interest and the priority was the relationship.
	And I, yeah, that would make it, uh, the stronger bond or showing that you make yourself... She can't live without you, right?
	I mean, that's the point.
	The bond is like, my life is terrible without you.
	So you're central to my happiness.
	Like I need you, like I need oxygen and like, that's, that's the bond, right?
	Correct.
	Okay.
	So she...
	Uh, didn't do anything like that.
	Did she ever express vulnerability, attachment, need, desire, thirst?
	No, not really.
	Um, not, not a whole lot.
	It was kind of the independent, uh, uh, independent woman, um, her, you know, career oriented, um, focus.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And did that ever cross your mind, that sort of declaration of passion or vulnerability or need might help?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	I don't think it was there on either side.
	Sorry, what do you mean it wasn't there?
	I mean, did you not feel passion for the woman in general?
	No, I did, but maybe the, I'd say, I think you're right.
	It'd be more the ability to express it, at least on my end.
	Yeah.
	Like you said, the ability to express those emotions has always been difficult for me, um, in general.
	Okay.
	Um, was, was grad school difficult?
	It was a lot of work, yes.
	It's kind of tough, right?
	I mean it's going to be kind of tough.
	So don't give me this fainting couch Victorian lady, well it was difficult so I just couldn't do it.
	You've probably done about a billion difficult things in your life, right?
	Yes, I have.
	I don't shy away from difficult things.
	Okay, so I'm sure that you knew that a declaration of passion, a declaration of need, a declaration of hunger and commitment and bonding and so on, that that kind of declaration
	If she was receptive to it, it would have cemented the relationship, and if she wasn't receptive to it, it would have ended things with honor, right?
	In other words, you declare you passionately want this girl, and you love her, and she's everything to you, and if she just shrugs and turns away, then it's like, okay, well, I...
	I acquitted myself with honor.
	I spoke the truth, and I put my heart out there, and if she rejects it, well, that's her choice, but at least I did the honest and right thing.
	Correct.
	Yeah.
	Yeah, I see that now, being older, but at the time, yeah, I
	I couldn't relate to this as much, but now I understand.
	When I said, did you ever think of having the speech of passion or whatever, did you think of that at the time?
	Oh, at the time?
	Yeah, I remember having that discussion with her, but she was already... Sorry, discussion?
	I'm talking about a cri de corps, a cry of the heart, and you're like, well, let's have a discussion.
	That's not how IQs work.
	Okay.
	Well, I did have that.
	No, you're right.
	I'm looking, I'm remembering, I'm looking, it's been a few years, but yes, I did have that.
	And it, it, it didn't go well.
	She had already, you know, her mind was already made up.
	And it was, you know, I got the door slam and here's your thing.
	Oh, she literally, did she literally like slam the door?
	Or is that an analogy?
	Yeah, yeah.
	Shut the door, locked it.
	And that's why I was like, you know, there's no, you know, crime of passion.
	It's like, you put your heart out there and that happens.
	You can't, you know, you gotta walk away.
	And when in the relationship was that?
	That was when I knew it was over.
	Oh, okay.
	So after you broke up, you gave it the cry of fashion.
	Well, no, when, when we were, when I thought it was still salvageable, I mean, I put it out there and then it, yeah, it, that was the response.
	And I think that was when I thought she was already, you know, seeing somebody that she was going to school with.
	What did she say when you, do you remember what you said more or less and what she said, or is it lost to the mists of time?
	It's kind of lost in time, but I did, I put it out there and it was trying to save, save it, but it was, I got the kind of too little too late.
	If you were interested, you would have done something sooner and you know, I'm moving on.
	And when did you first think of doing that?
	Um, well, I was making arrangements to looking at ways to get work and jobs and things that were going to be closer, but the more kind of,
	These barriers came up in conversation to things I just thought that it was just, that they were always going to find something wrong that wasn't going to make it work.
	Just seemed like that's kind of how it slowly ended.
	So just a way to not be direct about it.
	Okay.
	As it's kind of slowly going away.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Yeah, I mean, a woman is going to look for commitment, and if she can't find it from you, she's going to find it from someone else.
	Correct.
	Because she's now married or whatever, right?
	And again, it's not a very honorable way to get there, but that's what's going to happen, right?
	Yeah, yeah, it happens.
	I don't, yeah, I'm not, like I said, that's been years ago, yeah, kind of moved on from it.
	Okay.
	Now, so this is, was that late 20s, early 30s?
	Yeah, mid-20s, late-20s, yeah.
	Oh, mid-20s, okay, sorry.
	Yeah, it'd be mid-20s.
	Okay, so mid-20s, and what happened then for you in dating?
	I dated, I started working, the field I got into involved a lot of travel, working in remote areas, so I tried dating, but I had long work stints, so I was never able to do a long-lasting relationship, so I kind of focused on work.
	Um, heavily during that time.
	It's like my late, late twenties, early thirties.
	Um, but date, but not never was never in a town of any population or a city to head there for enough time to have a relationship or an established relationship.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Like Mr. Geology or whatever.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And, uh, and then.
	And then I actually got into another relationship.
	Um, this would be early thirties, mid thirties, um, with a gal when I, uh, had a more, uh, or had a job that involved less travel and that, yeah, that one didn't pan out.
	You had the job that had less travel?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And yeah, so you said that didn't pan out.
	What happened?
	Yeah, well that happened, it was a mistake of, I dated a single mother, had a couple children, and ended up living together for probably less than a year.
	Wow, you moved in with the kids and everything.
	Yes, yes.
	Wow.
	Yeah.
	It was a big leap.
	How pretty was she?
	Uh, I thought she was attractive.
	Yeah.
	I'd say probably, uh, an eight.
	And, uh, how many kids?
	Two kids.
	Same dad?
	Same dad.
	Yeah.
	And what was, what was he like?
	Uh, he was, he was out of the picture.
	They did not get along, um, uh, very well and they'd see him every other weekend.
	Well, it wasn't out of the picture, right?
	I mean, for me and my dad moving to Africa, that's out of the picture.
	No, no, no.
	He wasn't out of the picture.
	No, no, no.
	They would still exchange the custody every other weekend between the two of them.
	And I got along with them, but it was not a good situation.
	And did you get close with the kids?
	Yeah, I ended up closer with the kids than her towards the end, and it just became one of those situations where, actually, the way she treated her kids reminded me of how I was treated as a kid, and I try to point that out, like, you can't bully these kids, but you're not the father, so you really have no say.
	You just meet with your men.
	Sorry, what do you mean you really have no say?
	Do you mean legally?
	Well, you're treated like you don't have say because you're
	From her, I should say, in our relationship, when I would point that out, it was basically, you know, don't tell me how to raise my kids.
	Wow.
	Was she working?
	She was working, yes.
	And did you pay half the bills?
	Yes.
	Right.
	So that's why you get to tell her how to raise her kids.
	So I'm paying half the bills.
	Yeah.
	You're taking half my money, so I gotta say it how you raise the kids, because I live in the house with the kids.
	Correct.
	You know, like, I mean, to take an extreme example, if you're paying for half a house, and your roommate has a dog that, you know, craps on your bed, Amber Heard style, and you say, hey, you gotta figure out, you gotta toilet train your dog, and that person says, don't tell me how to raise my dog, and it's like, well, no, I kinda have to, because he keeps shitting on my bed, right?
	Uh huh, yeah.
	Same, yes.
	Very much a bully.
	I knew I had made a mistake.
	Okay, knowing you've made a mistake is not an explanation of why you were there.
	No, I think it was just a bad choice of picking a partner.
	It was a bad decision.
	Saying you've made a bad choice is also not saying why you were there.
	Why I was there?
	Yeah, why were you there?
	I was there because I wanted to be in a committed relationship.
	With a partner, with a wife.
	That doesn't explain why you're with a single mother who bullies her children and disrespects you.
	Gotcha.
	I'd say, yeah, I didn't have the, was lacking self-confidence or assertiveness to get what I wanted in life or the relationship I deserved.
	It was kind of, I guess, looking back, kind of
	Just selling myself short.
	Okay.
	And so how did things, how did things end there?
	Um, it ended with, I moved out and.
	Oh, no, sorry.
	I get that you moved out.
	That's a given, right?
	But how did things end in terms of the decay and emotionally and how did the breakup happen?
	It was, uh, it was bad.
	It was, it was, it was not amicable.
	It was, yeah, there was a lot of anger.
	I was blamed for everything.
	It was my fault.
	You were supposed to save us.
	You didn't save us.
	Everything that she told about her ex, I was the new ex, so I got the brunt of just being a terrible person, telling the kids I was terrible.
	Oh, so she bullied the kids and then weaponized them against you?
	Weaponized them against me, correct.
	So I was this terrible person.
	So, I mean, this really was damaging to the kids, right?
	Overall?
	It was, yes.
	Wow, that's a heavy thing to hang on your conscience, man.
	I'm sorry about that.
	Yeah, no, I didn't like it at all.
	I still miss the kids.
	It was just a tough
	It was just, it wasn't good for anybody.
	Well, yeah, but you and the mom had choices.
	The kids didn't, right?
	Correct.
	Yeah.
	And I feel bad about that and guilty about that causing problem.
	Yeah.
	Being a negative.
	Well, and it's, you know, just another, I mean, more ugly side to their mom and another male who is booted out of the house or runs out of the house or whatever.
	Right.
	Yes.
	Yes.
	And so, but what was it that was going wrong that you wanted to start to end things?
	You started, it was kind of the bullying aspect and it was also like you were just kind of a placeholder.
	I'm sorry, the bullying of you or the kids or both?
	It'd be both.
	I was treated kind of just like as a placeholder, just never really felt like a part of the family structure.
	And I don't know if I was a
	Responsible for that.
	Or if it was both, but just, you're just never really felt the connection or being a part of the outsider.
	You're like the, the, the ATM and the bed warmer and all.
	Right.
	But not really.
	Wherever you went, that's what, that's what you were like in every situation.
	And it just, yeah, it's a pretty draining feeling.
	And how, so you were living together for a year.
	How long were you together before that?
	It was a good three years, three and a half.
	So you were together with her for three and a half and then you moved in for the last year.
	Yeah.
	Holy crap.
	So it's like half these kids childhood almost, right?
	Uh, yes.
	Ouch.
	And I, I went to, we went to counseling and I, again, I, I, I, this, I did show, uh,
	Wanting to fix things, wanting to get things right, go to counseling and work things out.
	But this one was for sure, it was, she was not going to budge or want to work through anything.
	Like even when we went to counseling, the counselor even kind of pulled me aside after a couple of meetings and was like, she's not going to change.
	She, she won't admit any faults, any wrongs, anything.
	It was just, everything was my fault.
	Yeah.
	And that's a whole, but no bottom.
	Right.
	Okay.
	So, so the second time you get false ultimatums, right.
	So, okay.
	Yeah.
	And these were, these were strong.
	Yeah.
	Very much ultimatums.
	Very much.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Moving in that direction.
	And I felt like I, I, I did put, put the, the, the passion was there, but.
	It was a, it was a losing, that was a losing cause.
	And like I said, the kids, I think, you know, they're the ones that lost the most or, you know, just putting people, putting them through a bad situation.
	That's something I don't, I'm not proud of.
	And did anyone warn you about this situation?
	Your dad or friends or your brother or anything?
	They, everyone was.
	I liked her at the time and then after the fact it was, you know, um, they, you know, told you not to do that, but I never got a whole lot of no or like caution or, or, or warnings about it from, from family.
	Not a whole lot of, or none that you can remember?
	They were supportive of it, you know, of the relationship.
	But then claimed that they weren't later, right?
	Yeah, exactly.
	And then it was like, you know, you're a dummy for putting yourself in that.
	And yeah, kind of blaming me for that, which I guess I deserve that.
	That was my decision.
	No, but I mean, people who...
	People who claim to care about you should help you make good decisions, right?
	Otherwise, you know, they should be watching your back, right?
	They should, you know, we all get blinded by lust or whatever it is, right?
	Men and women, and men, I think, a little bit more.
	And we need people to, you know, punch us in the nads and help us make better decisions, right?
	Yeah, yeah, I'd say, yeah, you do get blinded by, yeah, by lust.
	I mean, for me, it was like, okay, well, if everything's on me, and I'm responsible for everything, and nobody owes me any good advice, well, what the hell are these relationships for?
	Right?
	I mean, it's just for, what, letting me walk into traffic when, or letting me walk into some invisible barrier that everyone else can see, but I can't, and then blaming me for it?
	It's like, oh, we need other people to view what we're doing and give us feedback, and
	If people don't care about us enough to try and keep us out of bad situations, what the hell's the relationship for?
	What does it even mean to have that relationship?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I do remember like after the fact it was my, my mom telling me, well, your father, you know, knew that was a bad from the get go, but he never, never talked to me or told me anything.
	Oh yeah.
	That's just, that's just 20, 20 hindsight bullshit.
	That's, you know, and everyone's saying, Oh, you should have sold at the top.
	And it's like, yo, thanks man.
	You know, it's, it's kind of like if you're at the beach with a friend and, and you think you've, you put all the sunscreen on your back and then you start to get real tomato lobster back.
	Right.
	And.
	Your friend doesn't say anything.
	Right.
	And, and like, you can't see your own back and it's just getting redder and redder.
	And then by the nighttime, it's like your skin is peeling and cracking and it's agony and you know, all of that.
	And you say to a friend, Jesus, man, why didn't you tell me?
	And he's like, Hey man, you're responsible for putting your own sunscreen on.
	And it's like, I know that, but I can't see my own back.
	And if my back was getting red, why didn't you tell me?
	Hey, don't blame me for your inability to take care of yourself on the beach.
	You know, that kind of stuff.
	Right.
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	And it's like, okay, well, then you're not really a friend of mine.
	If it's too much effort for you to say, Hey man, I think your back's getting burned.
	You gotta slap some on, let me put some sunscreen on for you or whatever, right?
	Oh, there's this little meme video of like somebody with a totally red back and somebody's got sunscreen on their hand.
	They just whack it down.
	You know, it's like, ah, right?
	So yeah, like I remember going dirt biking with a friend of mine in February or something when I was in my early teens.
	And he had these big giant hockey gloves.
	It's totally warm.
	I didn't have any gloves because, you know, my family was broke and we didn't have any gloves.
	And, you know, my hands were like turning into these frozen claws as you're dirt biking around.
	And I didn't say, I want your gloves.
	I just like, can I warm my hands up in your gloves?
	Like, let me just take your gloves for a couple of minutes, just warm them up and then we'll keep going.
	And he's like, well, where are your gloves, man?
	Where are your gloves?
	And it's like, okay, so you're just a douchebag.
	Like, okay, I think I will not do this again because, um,
	If it's just the worst thing in the world for you to lend me your gloves for a couple of minutes to warm up my frozen hands, then how could this possibly fall into the category of friendship, right?
	Okay, yeah.
	So, yeah, if they don't care about you enough to say, ooh, you know, you gotta think this through, man, there's kids involved, and you don't even know exactly what happened with her ex, I assume that she blamed her ex, right, for everything?
	Yeah, she blamed him for everything and, and, and having a, uh, a drinking problem.
	Um, which, uh, yeah, he, he did, but, but I learned later is that she, she hid that from me, the, she drank just the same.
	And that was another issue we had as I was saying, you can't.
	You know, do this and drink, especially in front of the kids.
	And again, it was just... Well, and drinkers never admit fault.
	That's part of alcoholism.
	Well, most addictions.
	Yeah.
	Well, the thing too, like if, just so you, to sort of move the needle, right?
	So if you were my friend and you were getting involved in a relationship like this, um, you know, I would say, okay, so like, what was the problem?
	Oh, her ex was just terrible.
	Right?
	It's like, okay.
	So she doesn't take any responsibility.
	In the breakup of her marriage and she'd be like, no, no, it was all her ex's fault.
	It's like, I would say, well, then that's going to be you at some point in the future.
	Right.
	And if you, and here's the thing, if you were still blinded by lust, right.
	If you, and I understand, look, I'm, I'm a big fan of lust.
	You know, I'm, I'm talking about passion.
	You should, you should feel safe getting lustful for a new girlfriend because you should have your friends watching your back.
	So if.
	You said, no, no, no, she's changed or she's better or whatever, whatever.
	Right.
	Well, it'd be pretty easy.
	Right.
	So what I would do is I would say to you guys, uh, come over, come over for dinner.
	Right.
	Love to cook you guys a meal.
	Um, but just, you know, I want to get to know your girlfriend.
	So, you know, have a babysitter for the kids or whatever.
	Right.
	And then she'd come over.
	Right.
	And then I would ask her questions about her ex.
	You know, I could do this in a nice way over the course of the conversation, nothing hostile, like, what the hell happened with your marriage?
	But, oh yeah, so, you know, is the dad still in the picture?
	And gosh, you know, that's pretty rough.
	How did that go?
	And you know, this kind of stuff, right?
	And she'd start blaming him, right?
	Yes.
	And I'd say, well, but, but you chose him, right?
	Yeah.
	Right.
	And oh, well, he hid everything from me.
	And it's like, well, but he kind of hid everything from you forever, right?
	You dated him, you got engaged, you got married, you decided to have a couple of kids with him, right?
	So, I mean, it can't all be him, right?
	I mean, you chose him, right?
	And then she would get more and more angry, right?
	Yep.
	Right?
	And it wouldn't be like I would provoke her, because I wouldn't be in there trying to needle her, but I would just ask her reasonable questions until she lost her shit, right?
	Yeah.
	Now then, I would say, and then I would say to you, okay, so she can't handle any reasonable questions without being aggressive, and because I've known you for a long time, I know you were bullied as a kid, so you may not be able to see bullies very well because you were raised by bullies, but this is a very bad idea, and, you know, I think we've got the evidence, right?
	Now, if, after that, you decided to pursue the relationship, my conscience would be clear.
	You know, and what does it, what does it cost?
	It costs me a meal, maybe a couple of plates thrown against the wall, but it doesn't, it costs me an evening.
	But you know, if I care about you as a friend, which I would, then it's a very small price to pay.
	You know, it's, it's, I've had people in my life, even over the last, you know, not, not a huge amount of time.
	I say, I think, I think you're not making really good dating decisions.
	Right.
	So, uh, you know, have a call and talk for an hour or two and sort of explain why and so on.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	And, uh, if they continue, okay, at least I said my piece and my conscience is clear.
	But if nobody cares enough to sit down with you and, you know, Hey, you know, how's it going and, and what's she like and, and what happened with her ex.
	Right.
	I mean, when you date a single mother, you know that you are dating one half of a colossal screw up in a family.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And so, okay.
	If there's been a colossal screw-up in the family, that's about the worst thing is to have a bunch of kids then bust up a family, right?
	There's a big warning flag there, and, you know, maybe she's done a bunch of therapy and blah blah blah blah blah, right?
	But, you know, if nobody cares about you enough to sit down for, you know, an hour or two, right?
	Like, I mean, we've been talking for an hour here, and, you know, I'm not saying everyone would necessarily have the same kind of skill or whatever it is that I bring to these things, but, you know, just some basic caring questions, right?
	Some basic self-knowledge stuff, right?
	Okay, who does she blame for the breakup?
	Okay.
	Well, if it's all the ex's fault, then she doesn't take any responsibility, which means that she's never going to change, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So that's, that's, again, this is not super complicated.
	Nobody's asking you to, you know, analyze.
	someone's dream that you don't even know, right?
	I mean, this is not super complicated, right?
	You know, what happened to the most important relationship in her life was with her child's father.
	What happened with that?
	Oh, yeah, it broke up.
	And she says it's all his fault.
	It's like, well, that's not good, right?
	But of course, you know, for your parents to
	For your parents to say that she doesn't change, or she won't change, and she just blames others, would be, well, you understand why they probably can't say that at all, because that would be to look in the mirror and see themselves for who they really are, right?
	Okay.
	Yeah, I see what you're saying.
	So this is, I mean, the problem with keeping dysfunctional people around, or to the point where, you know, you were discussing the breakup with your family, the problem with keeping dysfunctional people around
	Is they keep pushing you into the arms of dysfunctional people, right?
	Because they can't protect you because they harmed you, right?
	We never expect our torturer to turn into our savior, right?
	You know, a friend, you know, if you're set upon by some street gang,
	Your friend might help you, right?
	Might work to try and help you and fight your way out or whatever, right?
	But if you're being mugged and some street gang sets upon you, the mugger's not going to take your side, right?
	He's probably going to join in the street gang, right?
	Yeah.
	So you just need people around you in this life.
	You need people in this life who are going to watch your back.
	And the people who've harmed you and have never apologized, never made restitution, never admitted fault.
	Not only will they be unable to protect you, but they will enable your further harm.
	Okay.
	Because they can't admit that they ever hurt you, which means they can't do anything to protect you from being hurt.
	Yeah.
	You know, like if you and I were in a cave a hundred feet underground,
	And I said to you, hey man, could you sunscreen me up?
	What would you say?
	Yeah, or in a cave, sorry.
	Yeah, in a cave, 100 feet down under the ground.
	Well, yeah, he wouldn't need that.
	Right.
	So, there's no UV rays down here, man.
	Don't worry about it, right?
	Don't worry, we're good.
	Yeah, we're good, right?
	So, if I, you know, I'm not going to try and protect you if I can't conceive that you are going to be in any harm, are you with me?
	So, yeah, people who've harmed you and who won't admit it can't ever protect you from harm.
	In fact, they're likely to end up, if they've harmed you, right, this is the basic thing, right?
	If people have harmed you,
	They wanted to.
	Right?
	They wanted, like, this is just praxeological, right?
	Whatever people do, they prefer.
	Okay.
	Right?
	If somebody goes to vacation in Hawaii, where do they want to go to vacation?
	Hawaii.
	How do we know?
	They went to Hawaii.
	Right?
	That's the best vacation they can get in their price range.
	If somebody pays a quarter million dollars to fly above the atmosphere,
	Then what do they really want to do?
	Well, they really want to do that.
	We know that because they did it.
	Right.
	So if somebody has hurt you, and I don't mean like inadvertently, you know, like I, I throw a Frisbee and the wind takes it and it just kind of cracks you on the head.
	I'm like, it's not even my fault really, but you know, I'm really sorry.
	And, you know, let's not throw the Frisbee around anymore.
	Cause it's clearly too windy, you know, that kind of stuff.
	Right.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	So if.
	Somebody hurts you repeatedly and in ways that are obvious hurt, right?
	Like, there's nobody who would say that screaming at a child isn't frightening for the child, right?
	That bullying a child or getting enraged at a child and, you know, threatening the child or... And there's nobody who would say that throwing a 10-year-old boy against the wall is not
	Scary and hurtful to that boy, right?
	This is obvious stuff, right?
	Yeah.
	Okay.
	So it's just Life 101, right?
	And I hate to say Life 101 like you don't know, right?
	But it's just, there's a lot of confusion and clouds around this stuff.
	So anyone who hurts you repeatedly and obviously, and doesn't apologize, likes it.
	They like hurting you.
	They like hurting you.
	Yeah.
	I mean, and we know that because they,
	They keep doing it, right?
	Whatever people keep doing, they like.
	You say, ah, yes, well, it could be an addiction.
	It's like, well, yes, it could be an addiction.
	And the addict likes taking the drug over whatever else it might be, right?
	They prefer, or you could say prefer, whatever it is, right?
	Whether it's like or prefer.
	But whoever hurts you, obviously, and repeatedly, and never admits fault, and never takes therapy, and never makes restitution, and never promises to never do it again, right?
	Whoever hurts you repeatedly,
	Prefers to hurt you repeatedly.
	And so people in your life who prefer to hurt you repeatedly, of course they can't keep you safe.
	And if they prefer to hurt you repeatedly, then clearly they prefer it when you get hurt.
	So if you look at the pattern of your parents here, right?
	Maybe your brother too.
	Let's talk about your parents, right?
	Okay.
	So they don't tell you that you're going into a situation where for sure you're going to get your heart broken, right?
	It's going to be an ugly mess, right?
	So they don't tell you that.
	Why?
	Because they prefer that you get hurt.
	Now, then when you break up, instead of comforting you, what do they say?
	I told you so.
	Yeah.
	It's always that way.
	Yeah.
	So why did they say that?
	It's just more, it's kicking you when you're down.
	Yeah.
	Cause then they get to hurt you again.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	So they prefer anybody, and this is so important to get into your skin.
	Anybody who repeatedly hurts you in obvious ways and never apologizes prefers that you get hurt.
	And then having that person in your life will get you hurt.
	Okay.
	And they don't care who's,
	Needs, they sacrifice in order to hurt you.
	And it's, it's kind of incomprehensible.
	It's kind of incomprehensible to me, but it's a very real phenomenon.
	I don't know if it's sadism.
	I don't know if it's like, it's just abstract cruelty.
	I don't know whatever it is.
	And the psychological origins and source of it is not particularly relevant, right?
	We don't need to know the chemistry of why a lion is hungry to climb a tree when it chases us, right?
	Yeah.
	Just know to get out of that situation.
	So when you think back on your life, have your parents ever worked to keep you safe or give you comfort?
	Yeah, outside of providing shelter, food, that sort of thing.
	No, that's a legal requirement.
	That's like saying that the gulag wants to keep you safe because the gulag prisoner gets to see a doctor when he's cut himself, right?
	That's their obligation, right?
	So that doesn't count.
	No, that's true.
	No, and I think that's why I've always found myself
	Finding older people to as mentors and stuff because I just never got, I never had that from, never got that from my parents.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Drawn to, to learning from, from older people.
	Okay.
	So that's great.
	That's a wonderful distraction about your mentors, but let's get back to the core.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	Right.
	Can you think of a time where your parents have worked to keep you safe, to prevent disaster,
	Or give you comfort, genuine comfort, should disaster strike?
	No, I don't think it's been reciprocated in my way.
	When I was in need of something, I kind of was like, no, that I wouldn't.
	Yeah, if I asked my dad for something, if I needed help with something, it wouldn't come.
	I don't think that assistance would ever be there.
	Okay, that's not what I asked though.
	You are a slippery fellow, my friend.
	You are very oblique.
	It's like the question goes in and it's like that prism on the front cover of Dark Side of the Moon, like a single question light comes in and it gets sprayed in a rainbow in 12 different directions.
	I didn't ask if they gave you help.
	I said, did they work to prevent you from being hurt and or give you genuine comfort when hurt arose?
	No, they did not.
	No, you're right, they did not.
	So, do you know why your father bullied you?
	Was he reliving what happened to him as a child?
	No.
	Was it, I don't know, jealousy based?
	No, listen, you could read of things that happened to you as a child without bullying others.
	I've had dreams about, I have had dreams about things that happened to me as a child.
	I don't wake up and scream at my daughter.
	Everybody gets jealous from time to time.
	That doesn't mean that you become abusive.
	Just a power thing?
	Yeah.
	Everybody seeks power.
	That doesn't mean that I seek power over myself.
	I seek power over anti-rationality.
	I seek power over destructive impulses.
	I mean, everybody seeks power.
	That doesn't mean bullying.
	Doctors seek power over illness, right?
	That doesn't mean... right?
	Okay, gotcha.
	Yeah.
	Your father bullied you because he enjoyed your fear.
	Oh.
	He liked it.
	It gave him pleasure.
	He enjoyed your fear, he enjoyed your anxiety, he enjoyed your discomfort.
	Why did your parents drop you off at daycare?
	So they could take great and deep satisfaction in you crying and screaming for them as they drove away.
	Because they enjoy your pain.
	I mean, to me, that would be the only logic.
	Why does somebody keep repeatedly doing something which they prefer?
	Because they prefer whatever emotional satisfaction it provides to them.
	Okay.
	Why did your father let you wander into this obvious death trap of a relationship with a single mother?
	Because he enjoyed that it was going to screw up your life.
	And then why, when your life almost got screwed up and you were in great pain, did he say, eh-heh, told you so?
	Because that gives him pleasure.
	Yeah, I can see that.
	Again, if I'm way off base, it's your relationship, but I'm very much an empiricist, right?
	If somebody keeps doing something, it's because they enjoy it.
	Yeah, if you keep poking a wound, I mean, you do that because you enjoy it.
	Yeah, because you enjoy the other person's pain.
	And we know that there's this big psychological phenomenon called sadism, which is actually quite common in many places.
	And they've measured this, right?
	You get a thrill of endorphin looking at pain.
	When you see videos of people being tortured, you get a semi-orgasmic thrill.
	Yeah, I can see that, what you're saying, almost like an enjoyment from it, of your setbacks.
	I mean, it's extremely foreign to my way of thinking, for sure.
	No, me too.
	I mean, it's a very real phenomenon in the world.
	That's why I have a hard time understanding it, because I don't, so far, I don't get that.
	I couldn't treat people like that.
	But if you have people in your life who enjoy your suffering,
	They will continually, and I'm saying unconscious, right, but they will be continually engineering your suffering.
	Yeah, I think, like you said, it's an unconscious thing, but it is what's going on, yeah.
	Yeah, it may be, it may not be, probably is, but, I mean, they certainly have to know that they do it because it gives them pleasure, right, that they're aware of that, because they don't do it randomly, they don't do it for no reason at all.
	Okay, yeah, I see what you're saying.
	So, if you say,
	You know, I'm, I'm 40 and I don't have a good relationship.
	Well, that's because it would give your family of origin.
	I assume it would give your family of origin a great pain to see you happy because it gives them pleasure to see you unhappy.
	Okay.
	That's the physics you're working.
	For me, it's, you know, to me, it's just, it's just, I don't want to say it's as simple as saying, you know, why, why can I not jump to the moon?
	It's like, cause the physics of gravity don't allow it, right?
	It's not there.
	Okay.
	I don't have the, yeah.
	So it's like, well, why are my relationships failing?
	Well, because people take pleasure in your relationships failing.
	Because they take pleasure in your suffering.
	You know, I had a family member once say, Oh, it's a great, great girl.
	You should go on a date with her.
	Uh, she's a friend of a friend and you know, she used to, she used to be a figure skater and she's just lovely and blah, blah, blah.
	Right.
	Got to go to pick her up.
	She's an easy 400 pounds.
	Now I took her to dinner and we went to a nightclub and, and she was.
	Funny and nice and all that, but I'm like, I can't date someone who's 400 pounds.
	It's just not a good lifestyle fit because I'm very active, right?
	Yeah.
	And I assume if she was a figure skater, and I assume she was, she said she was, then to go from that to 400 pounds is indicative of some severe trauma, right?
	Yes.
	That's manifested in all of that.
	And I remember she did a spot on impersonation of, uh, uh, Austin Powers, like the Michael Byers character from the spy who checked me or whatever.
	Um, and she, she, she was very funny, but why would a family member, uh, do that?
	Yeah, it wasn't, yeah, it wasn't for your benefit or yeah.
	Because they would enjoy my awkward discomfort over the course of the date.
	And, and they would also enjoy.
	The fact that if I got angry, they could further twist the knife in.
	Gotcha.
	It's almost like a joke plus a dig at the same time.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Like, hey, you know, I mean, you're not having that many luck finding a permanent girlfriend of your own, so I thought, you know, we just widen the net a bit.
	Don't be so prejudicial.
	Don't be phobic, right?
	They put me in a situation of significant discomfort, and this used to happen as well in the business world.
	There were people who would make the most outlandish promises about what the software I wrote could do, and then I'd have to stay for a month of weekends to make the software do that.
	They make the money, and I get to work without a bunch of extra pay.
	There's a cruelty in the world that's... I mean, just look at the world!
	There's a cruelty in the world that is really...
	Powerful!
	It's really powerful, and it's a... I won't say it's a dominant phenomenon, but it's a very significant phenomenon.
	So, you would benefit from a happy relationship.
	But people who want you unhappy, who take pleasure in your unhappiness, they won't benefit from you being in a happy relationship.
	So that's why you're not in a happy relationship, because, I mean, if it's your parents or your older brother or whatever, or maybe it's extended family.
	So the reason why you're not in a happy relationship is it would make them unhappy.
	And because you're a person who grew up in a family structure and you had to please the people around you, you're just so used to pleasing people who want you unhappy or who want you isolated, who want you alone, who want you
	Lonely.
	You're so used to pleasing them as we all are.
	I was, everyone, everyone on the planet.
	We only survive by pleasing our parents.
	And if our parents want us to be unhappy and they enjoy our unhappiness, then we will conform to that because that's how we're raised.
	It's like expecting us not to conform to that.
	It's like expecting you and I to not know English when that's how we're raised, right?
	We may choose a different language.
	We're never unlearned English, right?
	Yeah.
	So yeah, that's why I was spending a lot of time on what ended your relationships, right?
	Gotcha.
	Do you know how long your father dated your mother before proposing?
	Or do you know how long they were engaged for?
	Yeah, not near that long.
	I think maybe a couple years.
	You mean from first date to marriage?
	Oh, from first dating to marriage.
	Yeah, yeah.
	Okay, so let's say two, three years?
	Say two, yeah.
	Okay, two years.
	So, two years from first date to marriage, right?
	Yeah.
	Now, did he ever sit you down and say, dude, like, if you want to keep this girl, right, this is the girl that you had in college and in graduate school, right, from your late teens to your mid-twenties?
	Yes.
	Did he ever sit you down and say, look, I was
	You know, you'd be dating her for a year.
	By the time I was dating your mom for a year, I'd already proposed, so you gotta, you know, I hate to say this shit, I'll get off the pot, so to speak, but you gotta, you know, don't just let it drift, because that's not good, right?
	Gotcha, yeah, never heard those talks.
	Never say that, right?
	So even though he did the exact opposite and ended up with a long-lasting marriage, however miserable it might be, so he
	Proposed probably in a year and got married a year after that.
	Right.
	And you just drifted along year after year, half decade plus.
	Right.
	And he's never said to you once, listen, dude, you know, love your kid, but you gotta, you gotta make a choice here.
	So you're doing the exact opposite of what he did to get married.
	And he's not mentioning a thing.
	You understand he's enjoying your suffering.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I see what you, I get it.
	If there's counter-evidence, I'm certainly happy to hear it, but certainly just from a sort of raw empirical standpoint, that's how it looks to me, at least.
	Yeah, no, there's really never any direction or explanation or doing any of those types of talks.
	Everything was always after the fact, and yeah, like you said, it was always a dig after something went wrong, after a life setback, and never any encouragement or
	In that regard of relationships or career, profession, or really anything.
	Right.
	Right.
	And of course, if we take away the drug of pleasure at watching us suffer, we take away that drug, you know, people get pretty mad.
	And so we'd rather fail than anger the people who harmed us in the past.
	We'd rather appease ourselves, sacrifice ourselves and our future so they don't get mad at us, right?
	I mean, I don't know that there was too many people and can't really think of anyone in my past who was genuinely happy when I found the love of my life.
	You know, married 20 plus years and great kid and I love her more every day and she's just wonderful.
	And how many people in my life were happy for me in the distant past?
	Zero?
	Is it the same?
	Well, yeah.
	I mean, that certainly seems to be how it played out.
	Did you have a couple of close friends that were supportive?
	Well, here's the thing.
	So there were some people who were supportive.
	I actually had three best men at my wedding.
	They were supportive, but they got progressively less happy as time went on.
	And in fact, their relationships tended to falter.
	So even though they were positive towards me, it was wreaking havoc upon their own lives in a way, the happiness that we had.
	So it caused jealousy, animosity.
	I've noticed that when I've been successful with friends, when I've had success, not in relationships, but other aspects of life, you have those friends that aren't... it turns them off.
	They're not as supportive.
	Yeah, this is all kind of bitchy.
	This writer Gore Vidal said, it's not enough that we succeed, our friends must also fail.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	There is, there is that, you know, happiness, uh, you know, happiness makes other people unhappy sometimes.
	Right.
	I mean, if you're genuinely happy, then when your friends are happy, you're thrilled.
	Right.
	You should be.
	Yeah.
	That's how I feel when people do good.
	It's like, that's like, that's a good thing.
	Everybody benefits.
	That's not something, not something to turn the knife on or, or, or yeah, try to try to sandbag.
	Okay.
	So let's, let's say, so you're still, you said you have limited contact, but still some contact with your parents, right?
	Yes.
	Okay.
	So let's say that you meet Sally from the alley, right?
	So Sally is just a great,
	Just a great girl, man.
	She's just, she's smart.
	She's, she's funny.
	She's wise.
	She's curious.
	She's relentless.
	She's virtuous.
	And she really genuinely cares about you and wants you to be happy.
	Right.
	Okay.
	And she says, Hey, it's, uh, let's meet your parents.
	I'd like to meet your parents.
	Right.
	And how is she, how's she gonna.
	React to meeting your parents, how your parents would strike her.
	Yeah, probably wouldn't strike me in my, yeah, that we wouldn't have the best, you know, we wouldn't have a good relationship.
	Sorry, who's the we there?
	Oh, me and my folks don't have the best, uh, don't, wouldn't, we don't have a good, a healthy relationship.
	Okay.
	Again, you're, you're, you're obliquing me into oblivion.
	Okay.
	How would Sally react?
	Not you and your parents.
	She would not, she would not like it.
	She would not be supportive of it.
	She would be against it.
	All right.
	And let's say, let's say.
	Yeah, so let's say that Sally, she loves you, she just wants the best for you, she really cares about you, and she finds out, you tell her of course, that your father threw you against the wall when you were a little boy.
	And screamed at you and called you names and threatened and bullied and all that kind of, and has never apologized for it, and she really loves you and really cares about you.
	What would she say?
	Yeah, she'd...
	She would confront him or not want to be associated with him, or with someone that would treat me bad.
	I would turn, yeah, she wouldn't be in favor of that.
	Yeah, I mean, just to think about it in reverse, right?
	You know, you find that, you know, Sally's mom, you know, just used to beat her and just screamed at her and made her life hell and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and has never apologized or ever admitted fault.
	And you absolutely love Sally and want very much the best for her, want to protect her, right?
	Because it's a, you know, the provide and protect male thing, right?
	Yeah.
	So how do you feel about the love of your life?
	How do you feel about Sally's mom, who harmed her more than anyone else in the world?
	Yeah, if she didn't apologize or have any remorse or admit any wrong, I wouldn't support her keeping her around in her life.
	Because she's not a... You wouldn't support her keeping her around in her life?
	My God, dude, grow a pair in this convo.
	You're there to protect her.
	What do you mean you wouldn't support?
	Yeah, no, I would confront her mom, and yeah, that's not right.
	You draw a big, giant circle of fire around the woman you love and make sure that predators didn't cross it, right?
	Yeah.
	Well, you know, I wouldn't support Sally walking into traffic because she was distracted.
	It's like, no, you tackle her and make sure she doesn't walk into—like, that's the protect thing, right?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	I guess I don't, I don't put it into words as well, but yeah, I would physically protect her from that.
	Yeah.
	You'd say, uh, look, I know I don't want to spend any time.
	Yeah.
	I wouldn't.
	Yeah.
	I'm not spending any time with your parents.
	And listen, if you, I love you.
	And the fact that they hurt you means I don't like them.
	Right.
	That's what love is.
	Love means you don't like the people who fuck with and hurt the people you love.
	You don't like those people.
	That's the shadow cast by the fiery sun of love.
	It's fuck the people who hurt the ones you love.
	That's love.
	That's the price of love.
	You passionately care for the people who are good and virtuous and kind and sensitive and thoughtful and lovely.
	And the people who've hurt them?
	I mean, you don't go hunting them down, you don't stalk them, you know, right?
	But you don't like them.
	How can you like someone who hurts the best person in your life?
	Yeah, you can't.
	So you have never had a girlfriend who said anything like that to you.
	Hey man, your parents screamed at you.
	They abandoned you in daycare.
	They, your dad threw you against the wall and bullied you and
	Struck you and he's never apologized.
	I don't want to have anything to do with that dude.
	I'm not.
	No, my God, this is horrible.
	I love you.
	And anybody who's hurt you is no friend of mine.
	They are my enemy.
	Have you ever had anyone be that loyal to you?
	Uh, no, I've had loyalty on, on, on jobs and where you.
	Working in dangerous situations and that sort of bond with groups of individuals but not in a personal relationship level.
	Were your girlfriends hurt by their parents?
	I would say yes.
	And had those parents apologized, attempted to make restitution, promised to never do it again, gone to therapy, whatever it took to fix it?
	I don't think they did either, no.
	Right.
	So if you love these women, how can you have a positive opinion of people who've hurt them?
	Yeah.
	Not apologetically hurt them, repeatedly.
	Yeah, and I remember confronting the exes about that, and they sided with the abuser or the parents.
	Oh, the single mom?
	Yes, yeah.
	Okay, so there you go, right?
	So, you can't protect people if they won't protect themselves.
	Like, you don't have that power, right?
	Mm-hmm.
	You know, to, to up your standard of what it means to love someone.
	But, and, and it's, listen, I say this because it doesn't sound to me like you were loved enough for people to protect you.
	They just kind of went with the flow, right?
	Well, there were problems, but they're your parents, blah, blah, blah.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	They were never, yeah.
	Never confronted me on any of this past stuff.
	Well, it's not really confronting you.
	No, I meant the situation between me and my folks.
	Yeah.
	I was dating a woman in my twenties.
	Her father was really mean to him.
	And she's like, we're going for lunch.
	Come along.
	I'm like, nope, not doing it.
	I'm not sitting down and breaking bread with the guy who hurt you and never apologized for it.
	Well, he's sorry deep down.
	Oh yeah.
	Has he ever said it?
	Well, but I know like, no, nope.
	Not breaking bread with a guy I care about you.
	I wasn't quite at the, I love you stage yet, but I cared a lot about her.
	And she taught me a lot about self-knowledge in my mid twenties.
	And I was not going to break bread with the guy who hurt her.
	I can't say that I care about someone and then have a positive response to somebody who repeatedly and unapologetically keeps hurting them.
	I mean, you see how love is just incredibly powerful and love is not understood by the world.
	Love, fierce protector of those you care about.
	Yeah.
	And it seems more, yeah, people are more about family, but that is anything but that, anything but love.
	Just more that family relationship takes precedence over, over that.
	Well, and that's a theory, right?
	And the theory is, well, you know, if you just put family above everything, then everything will be great.
	Okay, well, the world is putting family above virtue, family above love, family above morality, family above universal standards, family above kindness.
	And how's the world doing?
	Yeah, not very good.
	Not so great.
	And of course, as a moralist, you put virtue above all, right?
	That's the whole point of the moralist.
	You put virtue above all.
	And so, yeah, I mean, this is me versus the world, right?
	And, you know, you're, you know, one way or the other, you got a fork in the road here, right?
	So I'm saying that morality is key.
	And listen, this is, I mean, the funny thing is, is that nobody disagrees with me.
	Like, nobody disagrees with me.
	Right?
	I mean, if your father was a bank robber, right?
	And
	You went to rob a bank with him because he just said he really wanted you to, and it would be quality bonding father-son time, and you went to the police and you said, no, no, he was my father and he really wanted me to come.
	What would the police say?
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	Then you're, you're still culpable.
	Yeah.
	You're still like, they put morality, they put morality above family, right?
	Yes.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	And if, you know, if your father was an arsonist and you said, well, you know, I, I got to go and get him some matches and some gasoline.
	Cause you know, there's an orphanage he wants to burn down.
	Nobody would sit there and say, well, that's totally legit because he's family.
	Right.
	And even your parents, what did your parents say?
	Morality is more important than relationships.
	And you know why they said that they said that you said you should resist peer pressure.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	You should do the right thing just because everyone else is doing drugs.
	Don't do drugs.
	Right.
	Just because everyone else is drinking, don't drink or whatever they said.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	If everybody else was jumping off the Brooklyn bridge, would you?
	Right.
	So everybody, everybody agrees with this.
	Everybody agrees with this, that morality is more important than relationships.
	The law, teachers, priests, parents, moral leaders of every kind.
	Everybody agrees with me.
	In theory!
	In theory, yeah, in practice it's different.
	And even in practice, they agree with me, because the police would agree with me, right, that you don't get to say, well, family trumps the law, family trumps morality.
	It's not a defense, right?
	True.
	And teachers agree with me, because teachers say that you shouldn't sacrifice what's good and right.
	You know, if you have a brother in the class, right?
	Let's say you're twins, right?
	You have a brother in the class and your brother's just not very smart or whatever, right?
	Maybe he's a fraternal twin or something like that, right?
	So your brother's just not very smart or maybe he's just not very good at math, right?
	Like you're good at math and he's good at English, right?
	And so he does your math homework for you and you write his English essays, right?
	Or vice versa, whatever it is, right?
	Okay.
	So let's say the teachers find out, right?
	And would they say, oh no, that's fine, you can totally do the wrong thing because they're family, right?
	Everyone agrees with me!
	That's why they get so mad at me, right?
	Because there's nothing more annoying than being asked to follow a moral rule
	That you completely agree with, but absolutely hate.
	Right?
	That's why people get so mad at me.
	Again, it's got nothing to do with me.
	Nothing to do with me whatsoever.
	It's their own contradictions that they're mad at, but it's easier to get mad at me than to say, well, wait a minute.
	Our whole society is based on the fact that we put morality above relationships.
	Yeah.
	And they're trying to justify the contradictions.
	Well, then I point out that we should put morality above relationships, and then everybody loses their shit.
	And they lose their shit because they completely and totally agree with me.
	Everyone.
	Everyone.
	And so that's why they get so mad.
	Anyway, that's neither here nor there.
	So, yeah, I mean, as a moralist, I say, along with
	And your parents, of course your parents said the same thing, you know, you should do what's right above what is popular, you should put virtue above relationships and blah blah blah blah blah, right?
	If your friend, you know, begs for you to help him cheat on a test, you should say, no, no, no, you shouldn't cheat on the test, but he's my friend.
	It's an important, at least my best friend, right?
	It's like, no, no, no, but you have to do the right thing.
	The right thing is independent of relationships.
	You can't just say, well, moral rules don't exist because he's close to me, right?
	That's not, nobody in the world says that.
	Nobody.
	I don't know, maybe the mafia.
	So that's where things are at.
	I'm saying that morality trumps relationships.
	And the reason I say that is not only is that the very definition of integrity.
	The very definition of integrity is putting morality above convenience.
	And the other reason is that you can't have a relationship without morality.
	Morality is honesty.
	Morality is integrity.
	Morality is virtue.
	Morality is being trustworthy.
	You can't have a relationship with people who lie all the time.
	You can't have a relationship with people who betray you all the time.
	I mean, you could be in proximity.
	You can call them names like mom, dad, whatever, brother, sister, cousin, aunt, but you can't actually have a relationship with somebody who's not virtuous.
	And you can't have a relationship if you yourself are not living with virtue and integrity.
	So it's not just, well, it's the right thing to do in some abstract way.
	It's the only way to actually have a relationship.
	You can't have a relationship with people who aren't virtuous and you can't have a relationship if you yourself are not virtuous.
	And please understand, I'm not calling you not virtuous here.
	I'm just saying that this is sort of the way that the logic plays out as a whole.
	You seem like a very good and nice, I'm old enough to say young man, right?
	You seem like a very nice and thoughtful and obviously very intelligent middle-aged man, and I'm not saying anything like you're not a virtuous person.
	I'm just saying that the whole point of logic, of science, of morality, is to just take the obvious and the universal.
	Like, take the obvious, which everyone says is universal, and make it universal.
	Some people say, yeah, of course you should put the whole point of integrity.
	Can you imagine somebody being a nutritionist and saying, well, you should never put nutritional choice above hunger and what you feel like eating in the moment?
	There'd never be a personal trainer who would say, you should always put personal comfort and laziness above exercise.
	Yeah.
	Right?
	I mean, they would say, well, the whole point of a personal trainer and a nutritionist is that you have to have standards above the convenience of the moment and the preference of the moment.
	That's the whole reason those disciplines exist, right?
	Yes.
	So, when I say, yes, virtue is the only way to have a relationship, and therefore we can't ever put virtue above a relationship.
	And therefore, we should never put relationships above virtue, because you can't have a relationship without virtue.
	It's like a doctor saying, I should put beheading someone over fixing their appendix.
	It's like, well, if you behead them, then there is no appendix to fix, because they're dead.
	And I'll shut up now because I know you've been trying to say, I apologize, I just really want to get that point across that I'm just saying what is blindingly obvious, what parents argue, what teachers argue, what priests and the police and the entire court, judge, judicial system, everyone says that
	Virtue trumps relationships.
	And then I say, oh, okay, so virtue trumps relationships.
	And then everyone loses.
	Shit.
	I mean, it's just because it's supposed to be about, you know, they just say that and then they just do that to have power over you.
	But, uh, so, sorry, go ahead.
	Yeah, no, I agree with you.
	I think that's what's been going on is, yeah, just the titles of people that you have relationships with, but you don't, yeah, without virtue, you don't have the basis for a relationship.
	So with potential or with girlfriends, with family members, with, you know, mother, father, yeah, virtue is not there.
	It's just a hollowed relationship.
	It's empty.
	It's just, that's what's always struck me is like those, it just feels empty.
	Like there's not much behind it other than a title or a name.
	So that's your choice, you know, for the second half of your life.
	The choice for your second half of your life is, do I want virtue to be above relationships or do I want historical relationships, which really I didn't choose, just born into your family, right?
	Do I want historical relationships to be more important than virtue?
	I mean, that's the stark choice, right?
	And it usually occurs around middle age, right?
	You get a sense of mortality and the benefits of obeying historical unchosen relationships over voluntary virtue becomes, the price becomes pretty high and you're getting this unease.
	Like, okay, why isn't it working for me?
	Why isn't it working out for me?
	Well, because you are enmeshed in relationships with people who want you to fail.
	They're preventing your progress.
	They're anchors.
	Preventing?
	If I sabotage you, am I just preventing something?
	Oh, gotcha.
	It's even more so.
	I see what you're getting at.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	More than prevention.
	Yeah.
	It's one thing to stop you getting into a car.
	It's another thing to let you get into the car when I cut the brakes.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	I get what you're saying.
	It's even more, it's stronger than I, than I realized.
	Well, yeah, because otherwise you would have succeeded at it, right?
	There's an undertone.
	There's a physics to our life that's really hard to see until we just break it down to the stark realities.
	And the way you break it down to the stark realities is you're just relentlessly empirical.
	Just relentlessly empirical.
	Okay, well, your parents don't ever seem to — well, first of all, they were cruel to you when you were younger.
	And I'm not saying they were only cruel to you.
	I get all of that.
	But sometimes part of being cruel is being nice, like the nice cop.
	Nasty cop is all just designed to get you in jail, right?
	Correct.
	So, your parents are mean to you.
	They've never apologized, which means they've never admitted fault, which means they've never stopped being mean.
	They've never stopped being committed to being mean.
	Right.
	Otherwise they would have apologized and made amends.
	Right.
	Yeah.
	There would have been some form of amends or restitution.
	Yeah.
	Just, you know, geez, I've been thinking about this and this was wrong and all that.
	So.
	Yeah.
	People are, yeah.
	There's a lot of inertia to people's personality.
	It takes a lot of effort to change a personality.
	Right.
	A lot of effort.
	We know this wrestling with this stuff sometimes on a daily basis.
	So it takes a lot of effort to change a personality and.
	Your parents haven't changed, and if they were cruel to you when you were younger, then... and they haven't changed, right?
	I mean, you know, you're in... I assume you're in the STEM field, right?
	So if you...
	If you put a rock down and nobody moves it, and nothing moves it, and it comes back the next day, the rock's still there, right?
	It doesn't move on its own.
	That's like personality, right?
	If nobody's making an effort to change, personality doesn't change.
	It's almost nothing more inert.
	Maybe black holes and personalities are the most inert things, right?
	So yeah, if your parents were cruel to you when you were younger,
	They've never apologized, gone to therapy, made amends, then they're still cruel to you.
	That doesn't just fade out.
	It doesn't change, right?
	Yeah, yeah.
	It's still there.
	I mean, it's the law of momentum, right?
	An object that's in motion tends to stay in motion.
	An object at rest tends to stay at rest.
	So if they're not in motion and growing, then they're just putting down roots and staying more and more the same.
	So then you say, okay, well, my parents were cruel when I was younger.
	They haven't changed, haven't made apologies, no restitution.
	Therefore, they're still cruel to me now.
	Now, they can't be cruel to you in the same way, obviously, right?
	They can't pick you up and throw you against the wall, which means that they could have prevented themselves from doing that when you were a kid, right?
	They can't do that now because it's illegal, right?
	And you can defend yourself as an adult.
	Yeah, and you can defend yourself and they're getting older and you're stronger, right?
	So they can't do that.
	You know, they can't scream at you in the same way, so they just have to find other ways to be cruel.
	And the other way is that they let you wander into bad situations, they don't ever try and help you or save you, and then they lord it over you and mock you when the inevitable disasters occur.
	Correct.
	I think, yeah, that's the hardest part is the mocking and the, yeah, the aftermath.
	Sure.
	Sure.
	Yeah.
	Yeah.
	That's the gut punch.
	Right.
	So that's, that's who you're surrounded by.
	That's the physics and that's the undertow.
	And you can either spend the rest of your life conforming to that and be alone, or you can say, I choose to put morality above relationships.
	Okay.
	Yeah.
	And I choose if, uh, but you have to, you have to model this, right?
	So if you know, you meet some woman and she's got, I don't know, like some, um, sister, who's just, you know, really mean.
	And it's like, I don't like your sister.
	Well, why don't you like my sister?
	She's mean to you.
	I don't like people who are mean to you.
	I care about you.
	If I care about you, how can I also like people who hurt you?
	Yeah.
	Now that signals something really unusual.
	That's a pair bond.
	A pair bond is putting morality above relationships.
	That's what a pair bond is.
	For humans, not for ducks, right?
	Just bond with whoever raises them.
	But for humans, a pair bond is, and this is why, what does the marital vow say?
	Forsaking all others.
	Right?
	To love, to honor, to obey, to respect, to treasure, right?
	And that's why the vows are about morality.
	To be faithful, to love, to support in sickness and in health, better or for worse, until death do us part.
	So the vows, the marital vows are all about putting morality above relationships.
	And that's why there's this thing in the, by the way, this is why there's this thing in the marriage ceremony where they say, anybody have a reason to believe these people shouldn't be married?
	Speak now or forever hold your peace.
	You can say it now, but if you don't say it now, you can never ever bring it up again.
	So you can put morale.
	If you think that there's a good reason, like a moral reason why these people should not be married, right?
	Then speak now forever, hold your peace.
	So a pair bond is to put morality above the relationship because it's the only thing that is the relationship.
	And that's why the passion.
	That you need is the passion for virtue.
	From the passion for virtue, you get the passion for a virtuous person.
	And then they reflect that passion back to you, and that's your pair bond.
	Yeah, that's the fuel.
	Right.
	So, um, you know, how many of us in this life actually have someone who says, I don't like this person because he or she was mean to you and continues to be, or hasn't made apologies or hasn't made restitution?
	Yeah, those people are rare.
	Extraordinarily rare, which means we've got to become that and model it, right?
	Gotcha, that's what you're talking about in the past of leading, being a virtuous man and leading a woman, leading a virtuous woman.
	Yeah, I mean, it may just open things up to her.
	Now, she may come along and do the same thing for you.
	But I try not to, you know, I didn't try and wait for a good philosophy show to come along, right?
	I try to make a good philosophy show, that's the plan, right?
	Yeah.
	But if you live that virtue, you don't mind taking those hits, living that way until you meet the right person.
	Yeah, yeah, for sure.
	Yeah, because I met the wrong... Yeah, so sorry to interrupt, but let's say you meet this Sally, right?
	You meet Sally, and I guess you tried with a single mom, right?
	So you meet Sally, and you say to Sally, I don't like your father because he was abusive to you and he's never apologized.
	And she says, how dare you?
	You know, he's, he's my father and I'm loyal to him forever and ever.
	It's like, okay, well then Sally's putting relationships above virtue and it's a no go, right?
	It's a very elegant sorting mechanism.
	Yeah, you're right.
	It makes it easy to, yeah.
	And it's, yeah.
	I've been able to weed out those types of, you know, bad relationships.
	Yeah, but it needs to be explicit ahead of time, right?
	Because then it's just like, you know, like, I'm sorry you feel that way.
	Good luck with your crappy pretend relationships, right?
	I'm out, right?
	Gotcha.
	Yeah.
	And I feel like just, I've been doing that more with, you know, dating since the single mom of, you know, trying, you know, sorting this out and not,
	Um, falling back into those traps and, and, you know.
	Right.
	But if you don't have a positive way of working forward, then that's your parents just isolating you again and feeling superior and cruel, right?
	Oh, okay.
	I see.
	Well, now I know what not to do.
	It's like, okay, yeah, but that doesn't, you know, that doesn't exactly get you, get you to be a dad, right?
	No, you're right.
	Then that, that's what helps.
	No, that's what I've been was saying.
	I know what not to do.
	And I think that's why I contacted you is, is getting to the other side of
	What to do and how to approach it.
	No, you've been, yeah.
	I see the blueprint.
	Right, right.
	Yeah.
	So is that a reasonable analysis of the issues and a useful way of looking at them?
	Yes, I'd say so.
	Yes.
	Good.
	I mean, that's most of what I wanted to get across.
	I don't mean to leave you high and dry or anything, but is there anything else that you wanted to mention?
	No, no, that helps quite a bit.
	No, I think, yeah, you've definitely helped me in where I think I was.
	Like you said, it's kind of that fork in the road and trying to establish how to possibly move forward.
	Yeah, you know, really love someone, and just don't also like the people who hurt them.
	I mean, again, this is something that's completely obvious when it's expressed, when there's a lot of effort in the world into keeping it not expressed, but I think that's going to find someone who really cares about you, and that's the pair bond.
	No, you're right.
	I think, yeah, once you explained it, it's crystal clear.
	But yeah, you definitely cleared out the fog, that's for sure.
	Fantastic.
	Will you keep me posted about how things are going?
	Yes, I will.
	I greatly appreciate this.
	You're very welcome, and if I do get any emails from people who are hungry for somebody with your level of education and professional success, I will certainly pass them along.
	Oh yeah, well that would be great.
	Thank you.
	Alright, thanks man.
	Take care.
	Have a great night.
	Awesome.
	Okay, talk to you later.
	Bye.
	Well thank you so much for enjoying this latest Free Domain Show on philosophy.
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