Nov. 28, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
02:07:21
5318 Our 4 Kids Are BEGGING Us to DIVORCE! Call In
We've been fighting so badly that our four children are begging us to divorce!We met in high school in 2000. I was 18, she was 16; I was a senior, she was a junior. We'd known each other for about a month then started dating and got married five years later and then had our first kid in 2008. We have four children.I'm in the military, traveled all over the world. We've gone pretty much everywhere together. A couple deployments, spent some time overseas. We're now back stateside.It's been a somewhat tumultuous relationship. I think there have been issues with trust over the years on my part. You know, we both feel as though we have changed to try to accommodate the other person, but over the last, say, since the start of the new year, fights have gotten just incredibly worse.We went to counseling years ago and that helped somewhat. Your conversation helped somewhat. That was about two years ago.We had kind of peeled the onion back and determined that there were some childhood trauma issues with her side of the family, with mother and father. We talked somewhat about my side of the family, but identifying some of those issues from the past helped somewhat. We saw a marriage reconciler online in around the August time frame and that seemed to help.So we're both very Christian. I'm trying to be a pastor, and that's a five-year seminary train up, and I'm about a year and a half into it. I'm also preaching about once to twice a month at our church and filling in various roles there. My wife helps out with the Sunday school. The kids are all involved.I would say, you know, from the outside, it's the ideal life. You know, we have everything that we can do. could possibly want to need and the tumultuousness between the two of us, it's sad. We saw this marriage reconciler back in August time frame, had a few meetings. He helped us to patch things up from a biblical perspective and to kind of forgive and agree to kind of move on. And that helped.And then about a month ago, we got into a big argument. I said we had a friend of ours who was over. I had had a couple of drinks and I was saying things--and I'm giving the paraphrased version--but I said a couple of things that upset my wife. They were not kind.Then we went inside, got into it a little bit more and I thought she was saying something to the effect that she was going to leave again, which I had told her I didn't like. The argument had been over a procedure to have her laser eye surgery done. So then I got mad at her and said, "Oh, well, you're just gonna do this and to ruin the ruin the family?" and of course that's a that's a terrible thing to say. Then it just got worse from there. It's been weeks and weeks of non-stop bitterness, sadness, anger, back and forth. Yelling. I do not want to bias my side to say like, I'm the saint here. So if you want to drill down and get some details on things, I can do that. But I'm just kind of giving the wave tops.Join the PREMIUM philosophy community on the web for free!Get access to the audiobook for my new book 'Peaceful Parenting,' StefBOT-AI, private livestreams, premium call in shows, and the 22 Part History of Philosophers series!See you soon!https://freedomain.locals.com/support/promo/UPB2022
Um, I have no idea, uh, where to begin, to be honest.
Um, just, um, uh, a heads up.
I told my wife about this.
Um, I know you and I had been kind of talking, I'd sent the email a couple hours ago.
I had, I just told her about this, uh, when you had offered to,
Take my phone call 15 minutes ago, so she felt very blindsided of course and that's understandable but She would have liked to join in But I was thinking perhaps it could be a separate conversation Okay, so just for background of course you said on the live stream today that you and your wife were fighting so badly that your four children were begging you to divorce and
Yeah, pretty much.
Okay, so I guess give me a history of the relationship, and how long you've been married, when you met, and all that kind of good stuff.
Sure, sure.
Okay, so we met in high school in 2000.
I was 18, she was 16.
I was a senior, she was a junior.
We'd known each other for about a month, then started dating, and got married five years later, and then had our first kid in 2008.
And then our kids are ages four through fifteen.
We've got four of them.
I'm in the military.
Traveled all over the world.
She's been with me.
We've gone pretty much everywhere together.
A couple deployments.
Spent some time overseas.
We're now back stateside.
Close to family.
Let's see.
It's been a
Somewhat tumultuous relationship.
Um, we've, I think there've been issues with, uh, with trust over the years on my part.
Um, you know, we both feel as though we have changed to try to accommodate the, the other person, but, uh, over the last, say since the start of the new year, uh, fights have gotten just incredibly worse and,
Um, we saw a marriage.
We went to counseling years ago and that helped somewhat.
Um, your conversation helped somewhat.
Uh, that was about two years ago.
Um, we had kind of peeled the onion back and determined that there were some, uh, childhood trauma issues with, uh, uh, her side of the family, with mother and father.
Um, and I don't recall that we talked, we, we talked somewhat about my side of the family, but, um, um,
Identifying some of those issues from the past, I think, helped somewhat.
We saw a marriage reconciler online around the August timeframe, and that seemed to help.
So we're both very Christian.
I'm trying to be a pastor, and that's a five-year seminary
Train up and I'm about a year and a half into it.
Um, I'm also doing, I'm preaching about once a month, twice a month, uh, at our church and filling in various roles there.
Uh, and my wife helps out with the Sunday school.
The kids are all involved.
Um, I, I would say, you know, from the outside, it's the ideal life.
Uh, you know, we have everything that we could possibly want to need.
And, um, the, um,
The tumultuousness between the two of us, it's sad.
But anyway, we saw this marriage reconciler back in August timeframe, had a few meetings.
He helped us to patch things up from a biblical perspective and to kind of forgive to a certain, to forgive and agree to kind of move on.
And that helped.
And then about a month ago,
We got into a big argument.
I said we had a friend of ours who was over.
I had had a couple of drinks and I was saying things, and I'm giving the paraphrased version, but I said a couple of things that upset my wife.
They were not kind.
And then I thought, but then we went inside, got into it a little bit more, and I thought she was saying something to the effect that she was going to leave again, which I told her I didn't like.
And so then I got mad at her and said, OK, well, well, are you just going to?
The argument had been over a procedure to have her laser eye surgery done.
I said, oh, well, you're just going to do this to ruin the family.
And of course, that's a that's a terrible thing to say.
And then it just got worse from there.
And then it was it's just been weeks and weeks of nonstop.
Bitterness, sadness, anger,
Back and forth, um, yelling, um, I do not want to bias my side to say, like, I'm, I'm the saint here.
So I'm going to, I'm, you know, if you want to drill down and get some details on things, I can do that, but I'm just kind of giving the, the wave tops.
Why would laser surgery ruin their family?
Um, it,
It wouldn't.
Um, I, the way she had said something, the reconciler, I told her like, Hey, look, I'd never want to hear the words.
I'm going to get a divorce.
Cause I considered that like the nuclear option threat manipulation.
If you actually don't get it, I don't like, so she's, she's been the one who's only ever mentioned, I want a divorce.
And then it has not ended in divorce.
And that's happened.
I don't know how many times there were videos, but I told her I didn't want to hear that anymore.
We got into the argument last month and, um,
It had been over, um, we had some debt and I wanted to, uh, I was going to go on like a short deployment and I would make some money from that.
And I wanted to put that money towards, uh, the debt or perhaps getting a new car.
And she said she wanted to have her eye surgery done, uh, because he'd been wearing glasses the last 20 years.
And that's something that she's put off for a long time.
And as a single income, like I can understand that perspective, but we desperately need a new car and we have all this debt.
So I was trying to kind of balance that.
Anyway, the, the, uh, argument was, um, uh, had, that was a very sensitive issue for her.
Um, because she's beholden to me, uh, to, to earn the money and to, to, to ask, to be able to use it.
Uh, and so if I say, well, no, we need the money for this.
And that means it's just kind of like a delay for, for her, or she doesn't feel as though she has a say in it.
So I said, um, um, I had gotten upset because she had responded to me in what I thought was okay.
Well, I'm just going to leave you then because we, I'd like, I wasn't apologizing,
Uh, for what I had said about in front of the friend.
And so I thought she was kind of threatening divorce.
And I was like, Oh, okay.
Well, you know, like we're just blowing this whole thing up over your eyes, like the eye surgery, like, uh, because you're not getting your eye surgery.
So you're just going to leave me then.
Um, and which was just a, you know, uh, that was an emotional response that was uncalled for and unkind and, uh, very piercing.
Um,
If that whole thing that I just mentioned.
Go on.
Um, so since then, um, uh, we've had some instances where we've kind of made up, um, where I've, I have tried to apologize
Uh, but she says that I will follow up the apology with a butt.
So I will say, okay, well, hey, look, I'm really sorry.
You know, I didn't mean to do this there, but you know, please forgive me, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
And then later on or shortly thereafter, I'd say, well, now I want to talk about what you did and the things that you said to me, which were also not kind.
And, um, she gets upset at that.
Because she then she feels as though I'm trying to shift the blame to her and So then there have been instances after that where I have tried to do the reconcile thing There are so many So much stuff just kind of blurs together because there's just been so many instances that have been out of control so it's it's
The short and the long of it is, is that I have tried and I know I have failed in my, okay, I'm sorry, but, and I know those are kind of like bean apps, but I feel as though I'm being made to shoulder everything that happened.
So even her responses to me, um, uh,
Those, those aren't her faults.
Those are just her reacting to me.
Um, so that's, that's like an issue that I have, like, I look at Israel and Palestine, like, okay, well, Palestine attacked first and then Israel goes in there and then attacks and then it's, well, well, okay.
You can say, you know, Palestine started, but now they're both tearing at each other up.
And I'm not saying, you know, like, yeah, I definitely feel for, for Israel.
But at some point, it's like, OK, how do we stop this?
And so I have not done a fantastic job at that.
There have been too many instances that we got out of control.
And then finally, when we kind of bring it down and we're like, OK, hey, look, maybe we should try to save it.
Like, hey, look, maybe we can we can work things out.
The kids are like, please, God, no, please don't do this to us.
Please just split up.
Please leave.
Dad, just go.
Well, what are the kids seeing?
Uh, when my wife would, I don't like to argue in front of the kids.
And so when my wife would come in and we would get into it or something like that, I would very coldly, I would turn my back or I would say, get up or stop doing what you're doing.
Cause she would, she would get very, like she's broken to put it bluntly.
And I'm not saying that in, in, in a mean way, but like she, this entire episode has just broken her spiritually.
And in every kind of facet you can think of.
Do you mean like the last couple of months?
No, since this thing has really started, but I believe she would probably say for years this has been going on.
She's kind of felt broken and I haven't been able to help repair that or help reassure her.
One issue that, uh, she has with me.
No, no, no, no, no.
What are the children seeing?
That's, that's the question I'm asking.
Okay.
What are, okay.
Uh, what are they seeing?
Uh, they, they've seen me get upset.
They've seen me act wholly towards her, uh, or towards them.
Um, they have seen her, uh, cry and be on her knees and, uh, there's been lots of screaming and,
Um, each one of the kids will successively start to freak out, and then watch the other one freak out, and then it just cascades from there, and, um... It's, uh, there's been no hitting, but, uh, one thing that's, uh, was an issue that they have seen is I apologized.
They have seen me, like, when a...
A woman in spandex or whatever walks by, uh, they have seen me turn and look at them or look at like the woman walking by, like ogling them.
And they mentioned that to my wife in front of one of our friends.
And one of our friends was like, Oh, that's a mortal sin.
That's terrible.
And it was, you know, kind of like a jaw dropping moment because my wife had talked to me about that a while ago and I told her, no, no, I wasn't doing that.
But then the kids said that I was.
And, um,
The kids said, well, if he's looking at women like that, how is he looking at us?
Kind of like an accusation of... Wait, I'm sorry, I don't understand.
The kids were saying, if you're ogling a woman in spandex, what does that mean to the kids?
I don't follow.
My daughters were thinking, is he looking at us like that?
Oh my gosh, really?
Yeah, so that was...
That was heartbreaking for me as a dad, especially... I know it's not right.
I know it's not right.
I have given up... Sorry, what's not right?
No, no, it's not right of me to stare at a woman... Oh, God, listen, brother, I could care less about that.
As far as all the things that you're talking about, you looking at a woman's butt is, like, completely irrelevant to the ethics of the situation, so let's not even bother with that.
Um, I still feel bad for how my children have been made to feel and view me.
Well, it's not have been made to feel, that's passive voice, right?
Like you and your wife have terrorized your children to the point where they're begging you to divorce, right?
Right.
Right.
Now, what is the—I mean, I have some knowledge of it, but I'm certainly not an expert—what are the Christian commandments regarding frightening your children to that degree?
Anything that you do unto these little ones you do unto me, and Jesus said that.
So,
If we're terrorizing them, then we are terrorizing Jesus.
We are not treating them as we would want to be treated.
I mean, if your faith— I'm sorry, I'm getting an echo.
I'm getting an echo.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
I asked my wife to type me what she wanted me to say, and I've got that in here, just from her perspective.
And she can't join us, right?
And she can't join us, right?
Unfortunately, no, she can't.
She has to take my daughter to Bible study.
Okay.
There we go, sorry.
No, no problem.
So, it seems odd to me that the Christian stuff is really focused on you looking at a woman in spandex, but not you and your wife not screaming at each other in front of the children.
I mean, is there a faith element that I'm not understanding there?
I mean, shouldn't that be what you would focus on first rather than other things?
Right.
So, tying into that, two things that we have said is, that I have said is, hey, you have not respected me.
Like, so, me as the head of the household, the spiritual head of the household, you have not respected me in front of the children.
And she, for my part— Oh, so, hang on.
So, your Christian thing is to focus on the other person's problems.
Is that also the Christian way?
To focus on the problems that the other person has rather than reforming yourself?
I seem to remember a quote about the dust of the moat of the eye.
So, for my part, I have not loved her as entirely as I could have.
So, that is, like, hey, you know, I should be doing this thing for you whether you honour me or not.
She should be honouring me whether I love her or not.
I guess at that point.
So she should be honouring you whether or not you're behaving in an honourable fashion?
Yes.
So that's kind of license for you to do whatever you want and then blame her for not honouring you, right?
Right, right, exactly.
But that's not treating other people the way we want to be treated.
And so I have to do the right thing, which is
Since she is going to treat me with love, I should— I'm sorry, since she is going to treat me with honor, I should treat her with love as well.
So it's kind of like, no, you don't have to, but you should because that's what you're supposed to do.
I mean, I appreciate the theology, but this is the mother of your children.
I mean, why wouldn't you want to treat her as well as humanly possible?
Right.
I have no excuse.
I have no excuse.
I'm not looking for a blame or excuses.
I'm just genuinely curious.
Why do you dislike her so much to the point where you're screaming at her and frightening your children?
And I don't mean this in a judging way, I'm genuinely curious.
What is so off-putting?
There may be good things, and I'll understand them, but I just don't yet.
So, feel free to stop me or dissect as you see.
I don't... I won't scream, but I will get very cold.
I will raise my voice, but I'll try to bring it back down.
Again, those are not fantastic things, but I... No, but withdrawal is very scary for women, right?
I mean, you're just using the biggest weapon there is in the male arsenal, which is withdrawal and rejection, right?
Right, right, right, right.
So, one thing that I get very upset, that bothers me tremendously, is...
I feel as though I'm being shouldered, uh, I'm being forced to shoulder the blame for every argument and every, so, so no matter how she reacts, it's okay because I was, I drew first blood and that's pretty much been the thing since the beginning of our relationship, which, which I have felt that like, yeah, I know.
I'll admit, like I, I step in it a lot, but, uh, there almost seems to be no,
You know, responsibility.
She has apologized for things that she did in the past, like for the reconciliation.
She, uh, she did say, Hey, look, I'm, I'm sorry.
So on and so forth, but, uh, and I can forgive those things, but we're here and the, Hey, look, I said those things and those were terrible too.
You have also said and done things that are not okay.
And, uh, you know, I like apologize for my part, for those things.
And it's... No, I am okay with... I was okay in doing those things because, again, we go back to the... You drew first blood, so you got what you... Okay, sorry, I'm still a little confused.
I apologize for coming late to the party.
Okay, so you've been together for how long?
23 years.
23 years, okay.
Now, did she used to take a lot of responsibility but has stopped doing that for some reason?
No, that's pretty much...
If you start to talk about where to place blame, it gets very heated very quickly.
Okay, I got it.
So, she doesn't step up to take responsibility when there are problems.
Is that fair?
Yes.
Okay.
And you've known that for almost a quarter of a century.
Right.
So, what are you doing?
Like, what are you trying to change her for?
You've known that about her.
You chose to date her.
You chose to get engaged.
You chose to get married.
You chose to have four children together, as recently as four years ago.
She had another child.
So, I'm a little confused as to... I mean, it's like you're in the army for 23 years, and you're like, I can't believe I have to handle guns!
Right, right.
Like, what am I missing in terms of, like,
This is who she is, and this is who you chose.
But how do you choose someone and then demand that they fundamentally change?
I'm a little confused.
Right.
No, you can't.
Well, I guess... Well, you can!
You could try!
You can, but... Right, right.
It's the bed that you've chosen to sleep in.
Well, let's say that she chose, she said, you know what, I've been reading some unorthodox Christian texts and I think we should have an open marriage.
Right, what would you say?
Well, that'd probably be a big no-go.
Right, because you'd be saying, like, no, we're monogamous, that's been the basis of our relationship, like, you can't just change it later, right?
Right, right.
Okay, so this is who she is.
Now, maybe, just maybe, if you take 100% responsibility, it'll cool things down, maybe she'll see the value in that, maybe it'll change over time.
But you're trying to, like, punch her into a different shape.
Right.
I mean, she is who she is.
Right.
And she's good enough to have kids with, why is she not good enough to accept who she is?
She... she is.
I mean, you complain that she doesn't take responsibility, are you taking responsibility for who you married and chose to have children with?
Right.
Right.
I mean, that's your choice!
Nobody put a gun to your head!
Right?
You chose to have her, you chose to marry her, you chose to have four children with her, and that's your responsibility.
Now, you understand how cruel it is to say to somebody, I love you, now change.
Right.
Well, we're doing that to each other.
No, but I'm not talking to her.
I'm talking to you.
Right.
So you want to blur it into her.
You want me to keep focusing on her.
I'm not talking to her.
Well, yes.
Yes, I can see that, but... Yeah, I... Right, and that's what I do.
Okay, so tell me, so she doesn't take responsibility.
There's something she does that's upsetting or whatever, and she blames you, she doesn't take responsibility, right?
Right.
So, what's so bad about that?
Help me understand why this is worth fighting and wrecking the marriage and frightening your children over.
Because it escalates very quickly?
Nope.
No, it doesn't escalate.
There's no it here, right?
There's no it here.
If someone shoots at you and you shoot back, you're both shooting, right?
Right, right, right.
I mean, I don't know about this turn the other cheek thing, you may have heard that.
Right, right.
So, it doesn't escalate, you escalate.
Why?
She'll say something, or I'll say, it's both of us.
No, you're going back to both of us, you see?
You keep wanting to blend into her.
Okay, she said, give me something that she says that would set you off.
Trying to think of... Um... I'll be accused of something?
Um... Well, like what?
Like staring at a woman's butt?
Um... Well, there's definitely that, but... Other even, like, minor things... Um, so for, uh... I had a...
Friend of mine, his wife was on my Facebook page and my wife said, Oh, she's very attractive.
She's got a flat stomach, dah, dah, dah, dah.
Uh, and then she was worried that, you know, we live in one side of the country, they live in the other.
She said, well, what's to stop you from, you know, going out there on a short, you know, training thing, meeting up with her and cheating on her or with me.
That's not even in the realm of possibility.
She's had four kids.
That could do quite a number to a woman's figure.
Is she overweight?
Is she unhealthy?
I think she's great.
She's right at where I think.
She's relatively the same size that she's been since high school.
Okay, all right.
So, she is saying that you might cheat on her with this woman across the country.
Right.
Right.
Okay.
And that... Okay, so hang on, hang on.
So, you take that as an insult, like, of course I wouldn't, I love you, I'm loyal, like, how dare you question my... Is it something like that?
Right.
If it... Right.
If I defend... Like, no, no, it's not like that.
It won't ever be like that.
It's like, why are you defending her?
Why are you, you know... And it just starts to go into, kind of, like,
Okay, so this is a bit of a male-female thing.
All right, so you think she's expressing a judgment when what she in fact is doing is expressing a feeling.
But you interpret that as a judgment.
But she's just expressing a feeling.
Do you know what feeling she's expressing?
Insecurity?
Yeah, she's insecure.
She's feeling insecure.
She's feeling unattractive.
She's envious of
this other woman to some degree.
So she's feeling insecure, and she's expressing it in this way, but you jump right over the feeling, and you think this is some kind of judgment of you, and then you defend yourself as if you're attacked.
Is that right?
Right.
Right.
So why wouldn't you just ask her, oh, tell me more, or tell me what you're feeling?
I want to say I've tried that, but it
Those kinds of things devolve into, you're just defending this woman.
So why would you pick her over me?
I'm like, she literally doesn't mean anything.
No, no, no, because she's expressing a feeling and you're interpreting it as a judgment.
Right, so she says, well, why would you pick her over me?
It's like, wow, you really do sound like it sounds like you're feeling pretty down about yourself, or is there something going on that I need to know about?
Like, you're taking it like she's in court with you, and she's a lawyer, and she's going to throw you in jail.
Like, you're reacting as if she's judging you in some dangerous manner.
Right, right.
Okay, so let's go back to good old mom, right?
This is usually the template, right?
Let's go back to your good old mom when you were a kid.
How did your mother handle her own upset?
Attack.
Okay, so when your mom would get upset, what would she do?
Would she storm around the place looking for a problem?
Would she find something?
Would she yell at the kids?
How would she react if your mom was upset?
Yeah, pretty much like that.
She would get upset and then we would all feel the wrath.
But she would also kind of, and I do this with my kids, to some degree, she would confide in us the problems that were going on.
Your mom would?
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
But she would like, you know, huff and puff, say, I'm going to get a divorce lawyer.
And she would leave the phone book open with the, you know, the phone numbers and names of
The divorce lawyer's around and then she'd be huffy and puffy for a few days and not talk to my dad.
And so, sorry, she would threaten divorce in front of the kids or she would tell you about her desire to get a divorce and so on when she was fighting with your dad?
All of the above.
Okay.
Alright.
That's terrible parenting, obviously, right?
And how did you feel when she would do that?
Well, horribly.
When I was younger, I was like, oh my gosh, this is terrible.
When I got older, I'm like, oh, here we go again.
Well, okay.
So, but what about the attacks on you, your siblings and so on?
Um... Like, your mom's in a really foul mood.
What happens?
Yeah, I don't know that she would directly take it out on us.
She'd just be in a really sour mood.
She would smoke a lot.
But I can't think of specifically where, you know, she'd just be really, like, just really bitchy.
But just, but I don't know specifically, she'd be like, well, you never cleaned your room, ah!
You know, nothing like, nothing like that.
Oh, she wouldn't do that kind of stuff.
No.
I mean, she would, you knew to kind of avoid her.
So I guess maybe I just didn't poke the bear or anything.
I was always kind of like, you know, the golden child.
So I kind of stayed out of the way and,
I think probably my brother and sister caught more wrath than I did, so maybe that's why I'm not recalling anything specifically, but it was just a very sour time.
And how often would your mom be moody this way?
I can't remember, but it was pretty often, maybe monthly.
Monthly.
Sorry, just kidding.
A little bit of a cliche there.
Every month, right?
Every month, the female pastor gives the fire and brimstone sermon.
All right, go on.
Yeah, maybe monthly, every few months, something like that.
You know, this stuff kind of blurs together as a kid.
Okay, but if it's every couple of months your mom's in a bad mood, I mean, that's true of most people, isn't it?
Right, right.
It wasn't like some constant grinding, overshadowing,
thing like seven years of winter or something, right?
So if you're saying it was every couple of months, then we may have to look elsewhere.
Right, right, right.
It was pretty regular, I would say.
There were some pretty horrendous fights, but thinking back, you know, 30 years, whether it was weekly or monthly, my brother, he might have experienced it more than I, but it was...
Now, did your mother know that she had feelings?
Or did she assume that her irritation was always due to external factors?
Like, you kids just don't keep this place clean.
Like, did she know she was upset and then would find problems?
Or did she feel that her upset was caused by the problems?
It was almost 100% my father.
I don't know.
Okay, it's a very, very good way of not answering the question.
Okay, did your mother ever say, oh, you know, I'm just, I'm in a really bad mood, I'm sorry kids, let me just, you know, take a little moment to get myself together?
No, no, she would not say that, no.
Okay, so she didn't know she had feelings.
She only perceived that she had
Valid judgments.
Does that make sense?
Like, I'm upset because you kids... It's not like she's in a bad mood and yells at the kids.
She yells at the kids because the kids are bad.
Like, she just... It's all judgment.
It's not emotion.
Does that make sense?
Right.
Yeah.
And how did your dad handle these rampages?
He generally... No surprise here.
I did what I do, which was to withdraw the somewhat
Um, cold, um, reclusive, uh, retreat to his work, uh, be avoidant, um, those kinds of things.
Okay, so you're just reenacting your parents' marriage, right?
Right, right.
Right.
Why?
I mean, you hated it when you were a kid, I assume, so why would you do it?
Right.
Right, right, exactly.
Uh, and, and we know this, and yet, um, here we are.
Okay.
Why?
It still doesn't answer the question.
Why are you reenacting something that you really didn't like in your parents' marriage?
I have no excuse.
All right.
How much of your childhood did you spend dodging or managing your parents' conflicts or your mom's moodiness?
I would guess most of it, you know, when they would get in.
So you spent most of your childhood managing, resentfully managing, other people's moods, right?
Mm-hmm.
That is true.
I would try to be that.
Okay, so you had no power or control over your environment.
Right?
You just had to manage other people's moods.
Now, other people's moods, they were inflicted on you as if you caused them, right?
Right.
And so your sense of control is not over yourself, it's not over knowledge, it's not over animals, it's not over the world, it's not over your emotions.
Your sense of control is managing other people.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah, I think that was also one of the conclusions that we came to when we spoke last time, was that people power appeaser.
And then that's being in the military, being a power appeaser type person.
And what is your relationship with your parents at the moment?
Pretty good.
My dad and I are pretty close.
My mom and I talk pretty frequently.
I've talked to them about the issues that I've had in the past with them.
And like most of your call-in shows, people are like, well, you know, we did the best we could.
Following them for relationship advice, though, is nuts.
Okay, so your parents have totally gotten away with some pretty bad dysfunctions, right?
Like, they've gotten away with being pretty terrible in some ways.
I'm sure they were good in some ways as well, but, you know, threatening divorce and acting out your bad mood against your kids and forcing your kids to have to manage your moodiness for most of their childhoods.
It's pretty terrible.
And you don't hold them accountable at all, really, right?
I mean, you had a conversation or two, but they made their excuses and you just whistled and moved on, right?
Yeah, I think you could say that.
No, that's fine.
I mean, that's fine.
Okay, so you can forgive
Your parents, for what they did when you were a child, and you never chose them, right?
You were just born into that situation.
So you can forgive your parents and not hold them accountable, but by God, your wife, she's going to be held accountable, right?
She's got to take responsibility.
Like, you understand how messed up that is, right?
Like, the woman you chose, you've got to hold her feet to the fire.
But the people who harmed you as a child, that you never chose, oh, they totally get off scot-free.
Yeah, yeah.
So you understand your wife has no respect whatsoever for your moral judgment.
And you can understand why, right?
Right, absolutely.
Because, I mean, I hate to put it this bluntly, but I know it's an emergency situation, you're a flaming hypocrite.
Right.
Because you're like, you better take responsibility for how you treat me, and she's like, oh yeah?
Why don't you call your mom, have another nice little pleasant chat with her?
Because you're so big on holding people accountable for how they treat you, right?
So you're taking out your anger at your mom on your wife!
Just as she took her anger out on you!
If you want to be Mr. Forgiveness, that's fine.
Start with your wife.
If you're going to be Mr. Hold People Accountable, start with your mom.
So why haven't you held your parents accountable?
I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't, but why is your wife taking the brunt for all of this stuff when you're mad at your parents?
I guess because I felt as though I had come to peace with it.
Okay, so that's great.
So, forgiving people, forgiving people, and you come to peace with them, right?
So why haven't you forgiven your wife?
If forgiving people just brings you peace, and even if the people have harmed you for years, you could just forgive them and be at peace.
So, if being at peace is possible with your parents, why isn't it possible with your wife, who you chose?
Right.
There's no reason why it shouldn't be.
The way I look at it as is, I'll step in it.
Nah.
I just feel like I'm making excuses and stuff.
Well, you can't, I mean, you're an eloquent guy and I appreciate that, and you're an intelligent guy and I appreciate that too, but there's no magic words that can unriddle this one, right?
No.
Why do you forgive your parents and attack your wife?
Um, because my wife is obligated to be with me, and my parents aren't, and I'm taking the relationship that I have with her for granted.
Well, why is she obligated to be with you?
Well, for the Christian reasons, and I have promised to be faithful and loving, and I have not.
No, but hasn't she threatened to leave you?
Yes.
Okay, so she's not obligated to be with you.
Why is the person you chose being treated much worse than the people you never chose?
Why is the person who may have done you some wrong as an adult being attacked while the people who did you wrong when you were a child and had no choice are forgiven?
Because I make excuses for them.
No, I get it.
So you make excuses for them, right?
And, you know, they say, well, we did the best we could, right?
Right.
Okay, why isn't that enough for your wife?
Why doesn't your wife get to say, well, hey, I did the best I could, and you're like, okay, great.
Right.
Yeah, yeah, you're right.
But why?
If you're in the middle of a fight with your wife and she says, Oh no, I'm doing the best I can, would you be like, Oh, you know what?
That's right.
You know, absolutely.
I mean, it works with my parents.
It'll work with you.
All is forgiven.
Kiss, kiss, hug, hug.
Maybe it's pride.
I don't know.
That's just a word that doesn't explain much to me, but I'm certainly happy to hear how it would play out.
I'm not, I'm not willing to accept responsibility for my actions and not holding my parents accountable.
Well, I just, if you have a principle called, people can do you harm and you can just forgive them and everything is fine, then why, again, why doesn't that principle apply to your wife?
Well, it's not that I'm not willing to forgive my wife, I am.
No, you're absolutely not, because you've been yelling at her and you've been yelling back and forth for like a month or two at least, right?
I know that there have been problems earlier as well.
When was the last time you had a fight with your parents in the same way that you've had a fight with your wife?
When was the last time that happened?
Maybe a year ago?
I mean, but not in this fashion, no.
No, no, this fashion.
This level of anger and self-righteousness and aggression and blame, attack.
When was the last time you had a fight like that with your parents?
Yeah, never.
Never?
Okay.
I mean, I had it out with them over the phone for like an hour, but definitely not like for a month going on.
No, but did you yell at them?
Did you... Yeah, I did.
I yelled at them and told them how upset I was.
Okay, and they said, well, we did the best we could, and then everything's been fine since then, right?
Well, and they did apologize for, you know, the fighting and things that they did, but yeah.
Well, your wife has apologized too, as you've mentioned before, so, right?
So, your wife has apologized, your parents have apologized, but you treat your parents infinitely better than you treat your wife, right?
Do you think your wife doesn't notice that?
Ah, she probably does.
Well, I mean, at some level, she's gonna be like, well, hang on.
I mean, your parents treated you way worse than I ever have.
Because you were a kid, and you didn't choose them.
Your parents treated you way worse than I ever did, and you just have one flyby conversation with them on the phone.
You get mad at them, they apologize, and everything's been totally fine since.
Even though they've never brought it up again or never really made any restitution or anything like that.
Right.
But I put one foot wrong!
Your parents can bully you and draw you into their divorce dramas and your mom can snap at you and snarl at you for years so you spend most of your childhood managing your mom's ill temper and your parents' imminent divorce.
But God forbid I want some fucking eye surgery!
Right, right.
I mean, I'm not trying to take her side.
Obviously, I'm perfectly convinced that she's done terrible things, or bad things, or wrong things as well.
But I'm just saying, from her perspective, you have the capacity to forgive, forget, and move on with everyone except who?
Her.
Except her.
You treat everyone infinitely better than you treat the mother of your children.
Am I wrong?
So, no, you're not wrong.
Can I ask you a question here?
Yeah, of course.
So usually when we get into these are, and I will caveat this right now with, I am incredibly uncomfortable with shouldering all this blame.
And I know that there is the side of me that is trying to immediately off shift it.
So I'm just going to say that from the emotional IQ perspective, um, uh, but, but you are absolutely correct.
I am not denying those things.
I just say, like, I know how I'm feeling right now.
And I know that like, there's the side of me that's like, quick, we have to get to a spot that's less uncomfortable.
Um,
So, with that being said, and please shoot holes in whatever I'm about to say, like you always do, but I will step in it.
I will screw up.
I will say something terrible, mean, and hurtful.
No, no, hang on, hang on, hang on.
When was the last time you just up and said something terrible, mean, and hurtful to your parents?
Never.
Okay, so your wife is perfectly aware that you have the complete capacity to never, ever, ever say anything mean or hurtful.
So we're all ready.
We've already blown it.
Right.
She sees you having chats with your
With your friends, with your parents, with your boss, or your commanding officer, with waiters, with people on the phone who've screwed up an order.
She sees all of this, right?
And you being perfectly civil and never ripping off anything mean or hurtful, right?
Right, right.
And then you turn to her and what happens?
Right, so you treat the mother of your children, if I'm right about this, and obviously correct me if I'm wrong, maybe you've, I don't know, beaten up a waiter for getting your pasta order wrong, but you treat the mother of your children the very worst of anyone because she's the only person who gets this level of abuse or aggression or whatever, right?
I don't want to do that.
I don't want to do that.
Well, I don't care what you want to do or not.
I'm an empiricist, right?
That's what I'm doing.
Which is what you're doing, right?
That's what I'm doing.
So she sees that you are treating her... Look, I'm not talking to her.
I'm talking to you, right?
So if I talk to her, I'll have things to say to her.
But your wife looks at you being nice to everyone in the world and shitting on her.
Right.
Right.
Yep.
And you say you want to be honored.
Right, right.
Exactly.
So why do you have that?
This is what I said in the live stream.
Why do you have the permission to say shitty things to your wife and no one else?
What's the difference?
I don't.
No, you do have that permission because you do it, and you don't do it to anyone else, right?
If you had Tourette's Syndrome, then you'd be screaming out MF at a policeman or a pilot or whoever, a waiter, right?
So you don't spill these verbal aggressions at anyone except your wife.
So what's the difference?
Why is it
That you treat her the worst when it is, in fact, your most important relationship.
Look, your relationship with your wife is infinitely more important than your relationship with your parents.
Is that fair to say?
Because she's the mother of your children, she's the future, she's your companion.
And who did you swear to love, honour and obey in the marriage ceremony?
Was it your parents?
No, it was her.
No, you have become one flesh, love, honour and obey, right?
So your vows, your love, your future, your children, all of them say you should be treating your wife the very best of everyone, and yet you treat her the very worst.
And listen, you're not a dumb guy, you're a good guy, a smart guy, a nice guy, and you have the capacity to treat people well consistently.
What is the rule that says I treat everyone well
Except my wife.
There is none.
No, there is a rule.
I don't know what it is.
I don't know what it is.
I have some ideas, but you absolutely have that rule in your head.
Right, right, right.
When your parents gave you these bullshit non-apologies of, well, we did the best we could, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, did you get cold and angry and hang up on them and turn away and all of the stuff you do with your wife?
No.
I did get angry with it, but no, I did not.
But you also don't rip off these verbal bombs at your parents or anything like that, or do you do it with friends, do you do it with co-workers, do you do it with... No.
Right, of course not.
I'm probably the easiest going guy, except for with my wife.
Right, okay, so that's the question.
The woman you chose and made vows to, to treat the best, you're treating the worst, right?
This is why when you said we're really Christian, I'm like, I'm not sure that you're quite there yet, in my humble opinion.
Right, right.
I want to get there.
So your vows are to treat your wife the best.
So we have to figure out what rule do you have in your head that gives you permission to do this.
And also makes it, I don't know, the right thing to do, or a good approach, or something like that.
I mean, I assume you guys have been yelling at each other off and on for over 20 years, right?
Yeah.
Okay.
What is the rule that says this is not just an okay thing to do, but a good thing to do?
If you don't know the answer, I can ask it another way.
Yeah, if you could ask it another way.
I think I know, but is it because— Okay, what happens if you turn the other cheek, use our good Lord Jesus Christ example, and don't fight back?
What happens if
You nod and smile and ask for clarification, and don't fight back, and don't yell, and don't be cold, and don't be angry, and what happens if you're just curious and open and listen?
What happens to you, to your marriage, to your manhood, to your relationship, if you don't fight?
If I don't fight, it usually, well... No, no, what's your fear?
Not, well, because, I mean, you have been fighting for over 20 years.
What's your fear of what happens if you don't fight?
We won't feel needed or loved by not engaging in a conflict with the other person?
Okay, go on.
You're asking me or telling me?
Yeah, okay, okay.
So one of the other conclusions that we came to in the last thing...
Our call a couple years ago was that we had this underlying, like, we felt loved and needed when we were creating conflict with each other.
Well, whatever happened a couple years ago hasn't worked, so I appreciate you referencing that, but, you know, we'll just chalk that up in the not winning column, so that's fine.
What happens if you don't fight?
What happens to your relationship?
What happens to your marriage?
It becomes tense.
I'm sorry?
It'll become tense.
Well, it's already tense.
No, what is your fear?
Like, if you don't fight with her, if you treat your wife as well as you treat your average waiter or your mother, if you treat your wife well and you don't fight with her, even if she's kind of punchy, even if she's flailing at you or something like that, because your mom did all of that, right?
And you didn't fight with her.
So you know how to not fight with an aggressive woman, right?
I mean, that's how you were raised, not fighting with an aggressive woman.
Is that right?
Right.
Okay, so what happens if you don't fight?
If you treat your wife at least as well as you treat your mother, what happens?
What's your fear?
I'm probably giving up my masculinity or pride.
I'm a bit concerned that pride is a generic answer that you have.
Like, just pick one of the rotating seven deadly sins.
Maybe it's gluttony.
I don't know.
Could be sloth.
Right, right.
So, what happens if you don't fight?
What happens emotionally to you?
What emotion are you avoiding by doing all this useless fighting?
Taking responsibility?
Like that?
Like, if I...
Taking responsibility is not an emotion.
That's some analytical nonsense.
What is the feeling that you are avoiding by fighting?
Discomfort.
Okay, that's not quite an emotion.
It's like something negative.
Yeah, I get it.
But what?
So if she is... I'm just being brought here, but if she says something mean or something like that to me, and I turn the other cheek, so to speak,
And just let it slide.
No, no, not just let it fly.
But, you know, oh, that's, you know, a bit of a zinger.
What's going on?
Or, you know, is there anything I can help with?
Or, like, you know, I get zingers all the time.
You see them in the live stream, right?
And, you know, like, hey, what's going on?
Tell me more or whatever, right?
I do not know.
Well, I know!
I think.
Okay, so if you get zinged at and you don't fight back, you, my friend, are a kid again.
Yeah.
Because that's what happened with your mom.
You couldn't fight back, you just had to swallow it, right?
Right, right, right.
And if you're a kid again, you can't be a husband, you can't be the leader of the household.
I think this is where the pride thing kicks in a bit.
Right, right, right, right.
So to be a man, you have to not react as you did when you were a kid.
Now, with your mom, you're still a kid, right?
So you do all of that stuff.
But if you don't fight back, then your wife becomes your mother and you lose any respect in the household and you never get to escape your childhood and all that kind of stuff.
Right, right, right, right.
Yeah.
Yeah, I can see that.
You had to let your mother ride over you or run over you, so to speak.
And, you know, of course you did, right?
We all do when we're kids, right?
If our mothers are bitchy, we have to just find a way to swallow it, right?
We'll usually kick back a bit in the teenage years, like fight back a bit in the teenage years.
But that's a lot of shit to swallow, right?
Especially female to male, right?
It's a little bit extra, if that makes sense.
A little bit extra shit to swallow, right?
Female to male.
It's one thing to be dominated by a dad.
It's a little bit of a different thing to be... I don't mean to laugh.
It's a little bit of a different thing to be dominated by a mom, right?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay.
Do you think you have any anger at your mom and how she treated you as a kid?
Like, like, right now, like, just thinking off the top of my head, no, but there is definitely... I'm sure there is... Yeah, no, no, yeah, I take that back.
Yeah, like... Like, there are some things that have definitely bothered me that I tried to confront her on, and that I realized that she wasn't going to budge on, and I'm like, okay, well, I just kind of have to deal with that.
Ah, okay, so... Why do you have to deal with that?
Why do you have to accept that your mother's not going to budge on stuff?
Well, because I, well, I, why do I have to accept it?
I like, do you mean like accept them in my, like, like defooing them, kind of?
No, no, no, forget about the practicality.
Let me ask it a different way.
Sorry, I was unclear on that.
All right.
What does it mean that your mother
won't accept, or talk about, or honor your request to have a conversation about how she treated you as a kid.
What does that mean?
If you were to say, oh no, we are going to talk about this, this is really important to me, and you were the parent, you defined the relationship, and you messed up, mom, a lot of times, and we need to talk about it.
If you were insistent, and you said, no, no, no, we are going to talk about it, what would your mother do?
She would shut down and walk away.
Okay, and then you follow her, and you say, no, no, I mean,
Put on your big girl panties.
We are going to talk about this, right?
I mean, this is stuff you inflicted on me.
I didn't choose it.
I got to deal with it.
And so, if you just kind of pursued the conversation, what would happen?
Well, it would just end at a certain... She would just shut down.
Okay, so what does that mean that your mother would absolutely refuse to talk about something essential for your mental health?
And she doesn't care about it.
Her mental health is more important.
Well, I don't think it's mental health to avoid talking about things.
Her defenses are more important than your needs.
Right.
So does she have a bond with you?
Somewhat, yeah.
No, she doesn't.
Because a bond is when you do things that are really uncomfortable for the sake of the other person.
Your kids don't need to be bonded with you to go to Disneyland, right?
Right.
So the bond is when there's things that are really uncomfortable.
Does your mother have a bond with you, or is she more interested in her own defenses and avoidance?
Well, yeah, more interested in her own defenses.
Do you know what it is to be truly bonded?
No.
Which is why you and your wife are playing around with this detonation device called divorce or abandonment, which is why you, when you're threatened, you rip off the bond, right?
You get cold, you turn away, right?
Just as your mother does.
If your mother prefers her own defences to you, in other words, if she's willing,
To sacrifice your mental health, love and happiness for the sake of her own bullshit.
She does not love you.
And the harm that you think is in the past is actually in the present.
If I am inconvenient enough, if I upset somebody else, they will leave.
They will reject me.
They will abandon me.
Yeah.
Now, I'm sure that your mother claims to love you, right?
Yeah.
Claims to care about you, but if you have a legitimate request, she will abandon you.
She will simply reject you, right?
Now, if you were to say to your mother every time she called, I still want to talk about this, what would happen?
It would just end.
Well, she wouldn't call.
So, she will... I mean, you keep thinking, I give a de-foo, de-foo, okay.
If you continue to want to have an honest and direct relationship with her about things that are very important to you and you have a perfect right to talk about, she will separate from you.
She will divorce you if you're honest with her, right?
Right.
Do I have that correct?
I don't want to put words in your mouth.
I mean, that sounds like what you're saying.
Yeah, she would probably not talk with me.
Or she would say, oh, why can't you forgive me?
You know, stuff along those lines.
Right, it's like, well, I will forgive you when you earn forgiveness, and when we talk about it.
Yeah.
Which would be almost that, because I've tried to talk to her about some other things that were very uncomfortable, and my dad would say, oh, don't treat your mom like that.
You're really hurting her.
Like, well, she didn't care when I was a kid, you know, and I would say stuff like that.
Well look, you know, you can't talk to your parents like this.
Right, so they will reject who you are despite the fact that them listening would be incredibly healthy and healing for you.
They would rather you continue to exist in this kind of fractious torment than to simply take responsibility and listen.
Right.
And what's your big complaint about your wife?
She doesn't take responsibility!
Yeah, yeah.
You get that that's not about your wife fundamentally, right?
Right.
Your parents don't act in a way that I would define as consistent with love.
Right.
Consistent with love is, man, you can come to me with anything.
Right.
You can come to me with anything.
Right.
Nothing can come between us.
We are one flesh.
Mm-hmm.
I'd say that my dad is a little bit more willing.
My mom, not so much.
Well, no, because your dad, what you just talked about, your dad was, like, shooting you down talking to your mom!
Right, right.
But if he was there without her, he would... Yeah, I could probably... I could have that more intimate conversation with him and he would
He would be more apt to talk to me, but since he was there... But you still haven't had that conversation with him, right?
Right, yeah, no, that's a good point.
I'm not saying whether you should, I mean, just the fact is you haven't, right?
So it's very theoretical.
Right, right.
So your parents threatened to break the bond, and will break the bond, or the pretend bond.
Your parents
Will destroy the relationship, rather than listen to your complaints.
Your legitimate, reasonable complaints.
Does that make sense?
Yeah.
So, conflict is bond destruction.
Right.
And what happens with you and your wife?
Bond destruction.
Conflict is bond destruction.
And now, the conflict has gotten so high, what are your children begging for?
Right.
Divorce.
Bond destruction.
To be yourself, to be honest, to be direct, to be vulnerable, to have needs, all means bond destruction.
So then when you have a conflict with your wife, there's a panic.
Because if these conflicts arose with your parents,
You could be out on the street, you could be not fed.
Biologically, sort of genetically, this would be our fear, right?
I personally, myself, I mean I can't tell anyone else what to do, but I personally, myself, I'm not interested in having people in my life who only pretend to have a bond.
I mean, if there are people in my life and they want my loyalty and they want all the benefits of having a bond with me, beautiful, wonderful, lovely, great, let's talk about it, right?
But I don't do the pretend bond stuff, because then people, what they do is they say, well, I want all the benefits of the bond, but I don't actually want any of the discomfort of the bond.
Right, right.
I want loyalty, I want family, I want blood is thicker than water, I want honor, respect, my parents, right?
I want all of that stuff, but don't give me any of that uncomfortable conversation shit.
No thank you, that's unpleasant.
Right, right, right, right.
Which is a guy in a business who wants to spend all the money and doesn't want to do any of the work.
Yeah!
I guess that would be kind of fun, but that's not the way it is.
And threatening the bond is a foundational control mechanism.
And it's very destructive.
And it's really, really kind of murderous in a way.
For a parent to threaten the bond with a child, is experienced by the child, is kind of like a death threat.
Because children can't survive without their parents, right?
Right.
Absolutely.
And you're angry at being controlled and manipulated and bullied in that way.
That if you're honest, you're thrown out with the trash.
If you're honest, you're put out with the dog.
If you're honest, your parents will take the tent and move in the middle of the night and you'll wake up under the
Stars at sunrise.
Right, right.
And that's a shitty way to treat kids, right?
I mean, you wouldn't ever say to your children, do what daddy says, or I'm kicking you out of the house at the age of five, or ten, right?
Right.
That's the nuclear option, and it destroys the relationship.
Mm-hmm.
But your wife is not your mother.
I know that's like an annoyingly Freudian thing to say, of course, right?
And you know that, but I think that you have some unprocessed anger and frustration and fear at the threats your parents threw on you when you were a kid.
If you complain, you're out.
Don't you contradict us?
You can't have your own thoughts, you can't have any complaints, or you're out.
Or we will... I mean, we might still keep you in the house, but we're not gonna talk to you.
Right.
We're gonna turn away!
Is... Just a question.
Is that... Because that sometimes I feel like... And again, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like if I dissent from my wife, I'm gonna be... Isolated, cut off, not talked to, ignored, so on and so forth.
Is that...
Like, I can't have that relationship with my parents and speak to them the truth, and then I... can't also... I'm experiencing the same thing with my wife if I tell her.
No, but it sounds like you do it to your wife more, because you say that she's mad at you and you clam up, withdraw, get cold, right?
Um... When I... I'm sorry, you can totally change that.
That's just what I remember.
I could have misremembered.
Right, right.
So...
We'll get into, and this is just a very broad generic synopsis, but I'll say something rude or mean.
Uh, she'll react to me when what she wanted me to do was apologize and not dig in and defend what I had done.
I usually won't apologize for it.
Maybe it'll take me a couple of days.
Maybe it'll take me, sometimes I've apologized right off the bat.
Sometimes it'll take me a couple of days.
Sometimes it'll take me a week, um, to come around and say, yeah, okay, you know what I did was, was wrong and I shouldn't have done that.
I don't know.
Sing songs, hymns, whatever, I'll go about my day, oh, I gotta do this, and da-da-da-da, you know, and I'll actually, there's like nothing going on, and she will say that I am avoiding her, and maybe I'm, perhaps I am, but I'll do what I'll try to think, hey, you know, I'll try to initiate like some casual conversation or something like that to kind of spark things.
And it sometimes doesn't go well, yes, there are times when- No, but that's a power play, right?
And the power play is, you're bothered more than I am.
I'm fine.
Right.
That's a power play on your part, which is, oh no, I'm fine, hey man, if you're bothered, I guess you're the weak one, I'm the strong one, I'm fine, I don't care.
Right, right.
And that definitely comes from your parents.
I mean, without a doubt.
That your parents would be, like, messed up and there'd be some, when people would come over or whatever, they'd be, fine, and, right.
Right.
Well, you know, things will get very morose around the house and then I feel this need to, like, okay, well, like,
Get the kids out, go do something, occupy them so they're not around.
Cause if we're around each other, we'll just be sniping at each other.
Right.
Right.
Right.
I'm like, okay, well I need to, you know, get the kids and I'll take the kids and I'll go do something.
And then, um, that becomes kind of a, I'm using them as lever or I'm trying to
I'll spend the time to build a relationship with them, but not try to spend the time to build a relationship or repairing it with my wife.
Right.
Now, you understand how unbelievably weak and girly and manipulative all this shit is?
Yes.
Just be direct.
Like, can you be direct?
Can you say, yeah, I'm hurt, or yeah, I'm upset, or I'm angry at you and it's not fair, or I said something mean and that's bad, I'm so sorry, like, that's, you know, you're the mother of my children.
Like, can you be direct, or is it all of this, like, fucking chess pieces, three-dimensional, and, well, I'm going to move the kids here, and I'm going to whistle because I don't want to show that I'm upset.
Like, you can't be direct!
That means that you grew up without a bond!
Yeah.
I cannot be...
That's what I almost feel like sometimes both approaches don't work.
Because when I feel like, okay, maybe things have calmed down, I can try and be reconciliatory.
And I'll try to approach and I'll say, Okay, well, hey, look, yeah, I'd really like to talk about this thing.
Let's not get upset, let's not yell, let's try and talk these things through so I can hear what you're saying and so on and so forth.
No, no, but you've already done the damage by being manipulative for a day or two or three.
Right, right, right.
So you've already hurt and frustrated her and angered her and bewildered her, like you're just walking around like, I'm really upset and he doesn't seem to care at all.
That's really frustrating and hurtful, right?
And then after a couple of days of this kind of mental torture, you're like, hey, let's just sit down and talk about this reasonably.
It's like, I don't think so.
Right, right, right, right, exactly.
Yeah, that's a jerk move to do.
To the mother of my children.
That you chose, and continue to choose.
Right, right, exactly.
So, the directness, the directness.
I mean, I don't know if you've read real-time relationships, but it's directness of just, here's what I think, here's what I feel, no judgment, just facts.
I feel like if I don't fight back, I'm going to fall down a well.
I feel like I'm... I don't know what's going on.
I don't know why I'm so... Right, right, right.
I feel this after you said that, not because of it, it just happened, right?
Right, right.
Yeah, no, I've never really done that, I think.
Because how... Okay, do you have a relationship where you don't...
Manipulate and you're just straight and direct about what you think and feel.
With my wife?
Or are you just meaning in general?
Anyone!
I don't think... Maybe one of the pastors, but other than that I can't really... One of the pastors?
Does your pastor know that your marriage is in shambles and your kids are begging you for a divorce?
Right, yes, he does.
He does know that, okay.
Now, manipulation equals one thing and one thing only that's not often understood.
I'll just lay this out there.
If it doesn't fit you, obviously, you know, shrug it off like a bad coat.
Manipulation is the same as isolation.
Because you can't connect with someone directly, you can't be visible, you can't be seen, you can't be accepted for who you are.
You're just pushing all of these imaginary chess pieces all over the place trying to make an effect or have an effect.
You can't be direct, which means you can't be seen and you can't see the other person.
You can't reveal, let down your defenses and be intimate with someone, be connected with someone, be vulnerable to someone.
Which means that you're surrounded by this moat and you're in a castle of isolation.
Right, you're like some old king who can't talk to someone on the other side of the kingdom.
He's just got to send messages and hope they get there.
He can't ever hug, he can't ever connect.
Right, right, right.
And also, if you grow up without a bond, that isolation is foundational.
I mean, it's... You're not loved and respected and treasured for who you are.
But only insofar as you serve the petty, weak,
Emotional needs and manipulations of your parents.
You're gonna spend your whole life pleasing people because you can't connect with them or they won't connect with you.
So you're saying that I'm going around manipulating and it's because I feel this sense of isolation?
Well, you have to if you've not directly connected with somebody.
It always goes through this filter of manipulation.
If you can't just directly talk to someone and say honestly what you think and feel, then you're kind of alone.
Right.
So, yes, I realize I chose my wife and she is the mother of my children and
So many of these other things and I, I get emotional and I say abusive and hurtful and mean things.
And yet at the same time, I do want to be able to talk with her about things that are truthful and honest and uncomfortable because I feel as though I can't have that bond with my parents, but I want to be able to do that with her.
But when I try to,
I know it elicits some uncomfortableness on her behalf, and I'm not letting myself off the hook whatsoever.
No, yeah, on your wife, because you've trained her in this way, and she chose you because you're, I mean, you're rewriting the equation here.
You're saying, I'm going to be direct and honest now.
Right.
Now, sorry, go ahead.
There have been times where I have tried to approach her with things that are truthful and honest, and they have been
They've blown up into fights, and there are times that I have, more often than not, that I've said something mean and rude, and that has resulted in a fight.
Well, you've got a lot of bodies, right?
I mean, you've got 23 years of this, or 22 years of these kinds of fights, so it's going to take a while to turn around.
Sorry, go ahead.
Sorry, I have to go do my guard checks real quick.
Is it possible?
I don't know what time.
You're on a very limited time schedule, but I don't know... No, there's a little bit more.
Do you want to give me a call back?
Yeah, is that okay?
Yeah, yeah, just go do your thing and give me a call back.
Okay, what's my time window here?
Because I know you probably have to... Well, how long do you need?
Hold on.
Just roughly.
Would 30 minutes be okay?
Yes, we could do 30 minutes.
Okay, okay.
It may be sooner than that, but I'll call you back as soon as possible.
All right, thanks, man.
Bye.
Okay, all right, thanks, bye.
Ah, there we go.
There we go.
All right, you're back.
Yes.
All right, all right, all right.
So, I guess, yeah, I mean, that may be just a theoretical way of, or a framework for looking at it, but of course the big question is, like, what do you want to have happen?
What's under your control that doesn't rely on your wife
Choosing anything.
That's the big question, right?
Because the moment that you say, well, I'll do X, but my wife better do Y, well, you just lost control of the situation, right?
Right, right, right.
So what can you commit to that's most in alignment with your Christian values?
That will have you like, you know, if your marriage succeeds, your marriage fails.
I mean, it's not completely under your control.
Of course, your wife could just decide to leave you.
But in general, I think the best approach in life is to say, I couldn't have done any better.
Right?
And then if something doesn't work out or whatever, then at least you don't see kicking yourself later saying, Oh, I should have done this, that or the other, if that makes sense.
So what can you do?
That is going to give you the best conscience, and I think the best conscience aligns with the best outcome for your marriage, but what can you do that's going to align most with virtue, with Christ-like teachings, with Christianity, with what you consider to be the good, and of course your wedding vows?
Right.
I would like to save it.
I do care deeply about her and I want the kids, you know, I want the kids to, I don't want to go through this on purpose, but I want them to see that, you know, I, I messed up and was able to fix it.
You know, that I, I, when I had a problem, I sought out guidance and fix what I could about me to
Save the marriage, you know, and be a good dad, be a good husband, be a good father, pastor, everything, you know?
Right, right.
Now, sorry, you don't have to answer anything that you don't want to answer, but I assume that your wife, you and your wife, are still having, to some degree, sexual relations of some kind or another.
And I'm not asking this just for, you know, prudence, there's a sort of reason why I'm asking.
You don't have to answer, I'll just go on the assumption that, you know, you've got four kids, right?
So, one of the worst things that can happen to a woman
Is if she goes through the experience of, I'm good enough to have sex with, but I'm not good enough to treat well.
Oh, yeah, yeah, no, that's absolutely, yeah, that would be horrible.
Yeah, to feel like that, yeah, she, I can say that she probably feels that.
She, that is, no, I know that's, she's just being used, right?
Yeah, I mean, because then it's, of course, I don't like you, but I'll use your body is something that really is... and that's kind of like a woman who's, you know, calling you an asshole and swearing at you and then saying, oh, I'm gonna need a lot of money.
Right.
Like, I'm good enough for my wallet, I'm just not good enough to treat well.
And so that's another huge issue, of course, that makes women
Really hostile.
It's like, well, you just treated me like crap, and now you want to have sex, which means that it's just my body you're interested in, and you really don't like me as a person, but you'll use my body, and that, of course, as you know, is very disconnected from
The soul, right?
Right.
The flesh.
Absolutely.
A little context there.
When we are not fighting, it's absolutely fantastic.
More than I could possibly want.
When we're fighting, there's none.
Which is understandable, because I also don't want her to feel like she is being used.
And, you know, also not in the mood either.
Yeah, I get that.
That's just something to remember.
The other thing, of course, is that if you say things that indicate contempt for character...
You know, the biggest sign of a divorce is contempt, right?
Where you just curl your lip, they're not even worth interacting with, they're so crazy, there's no respect at all.
And the reason for that is that if you say to a woman, you know, I don't know, I hate you or something, I'm not saying you would have said that, but if you say something really hostile and negative towards a woman,
Then either you mean it, in which case, I mean, I don't even, then everything's just a charade and it's nonsense, or you don't mean it, but you're just saying it to hurt her and get your way.
Like, either you do kind of hate her, or you're just hurting her and bullying her to get your way.
And this is why speaking harshly to your partner is just, I mean, I can't even- It's just the worst thing, yeah.
Emphasize how much that is not on the table, right?
Right.
And also- I have- I'm sorry, go ahead.
Um, there are three things that I can think of that I've, I've said to her.
Um, one is this was about five years ago.
I said to her, you're the worst person I've ever met, which is absolutely devastating to hear.
And she's, she's never forgot.
She, she, yeah, she's never, she's never forgot.
I don't blame her.
So I'm not, and.
But I've said that to her.
And then we were arguing on our way to church.
And I said, why can't you be a better mom?
And then we walked into church and I acted like there was nothing going on.
And then she has had 16 miscarriages.
And for many of them, I have not been there either emotionally or physically.
during her time of need, and she feels an absolute abandonment, and she is not wrong in that.
She had 16 miscarriages, my gosh!
I'm so sorry.
She's really tough.
She's really tough.
Wow.
Wow.
Wow.
Okay.
Alright, so you want to keep the marriage, right?
I wouldn't want to be married to me.
Okay, do you want to work on the marriage?
Do you want to fix the marriage?
Yes, yes I do.
I can't blame her for not wanting to forgive me when I say those things.
Right, right.
Well, I mean, it's not a mortal sin, so you can
You know, if you went to an extremity where you said, like, you're the worst person I've ever met and why can't you be a better mother and so on, if you get to an extremity like that and that draws you up short and you say, my gosh, I really have to work on my anger issues, I really have to take anger management, like, if that's something where you hit rock bottom,
and fix yourself, then that stuff is forgivable.
In other words, forgivable is when you look back and you say, it was a good thing that that happened.
I didn't like it at the time, but it was a good thing that he said that to me because that was when things really began to turn around.
Right.
Does that make sense?
Yeah, no, that's beautifully put.
I never looked at it that way.
But that hasn't happened, right?
You just keep bouncing down, right?
There's no bouncing back up.
Right, right, right, right.
I just keep digging in.
It keeps getting worse, yeah.
So that's when forgiveness is earned, is when you turn it around.
And you know, hopefully this is something like that.
So what is the biblical commandment for these?
You say messed up.
I don't mean to be overly harsh.
I've used this stuff as a sin.
You know, messed up is, oh man, I had that appointment and I completely forgot about it because I forgot to put it in my reminder or whatever, right?
Right.
I mean, you went against your vows, right?
Right.
Yeah.
To love someone doesn't mean that you also tell them they're the worst person you've ever met.
Right.
If she has deficiencies as a mother, then you work to support her, as I have deficiencies as a father, my wife will work to support me and vice versa.
And so, yeah, we all have deficiencies.
That's why partnership is so good, right?
Right, right.
So, if she has deficiencies, you don't loftily tell her how bad she is, you work with her to improve, right?
Right, right, right.
So, you made vows.
I mean, really, it's to God, right?
Right, absolutely.
It involves your partner, but the vows are to God.
And what does God think of how you fulfilled your vows?
Right.
I've done a terrible job of it.
I mean, obviously not 100% terrible, she's still there, but you know, there's a squeaky bit of room for improvement, let's say, right?
Right, right.
So, if you fail your vows, is it something that is acceptable within Christianity to blame somebody else for you failing your vows?
No.
That, I mean, my understanding of it is there can be influences, but it's ultimately up to you.
Right, right.
Like, if somebody says, I dare you to sleep with that woman, like you're married or whatever, and somebody says, I dare you to sleep with that woman, and you say, no, and then they say, well, no, I double dog dare you, and you're like, oh, okay, well, then I will, right?
Now, you could say, well, it's the other person double dog daring me, but it really comes down to your own free will eventually, right?
Right, right.
Yeah.
So, to counter sin, we have to withdraw blame, because blame weakens our willpower and our resolution to pursue virtue.
Because blame is just another word for excuse, right?
Right, right.
Well, my wife provokes me, therefore I get angry, and it's like, that's... Right.
Yeah, it's removing the culpability on my... Well, and you're not as put upon as Jesus was getting nailed up on Calvary.
And he didn't curse his wife.
He actually asked for forgiveness, right?
For those who were literally nailing him up.
But you curse your wife when she angers you.
Right, right, right.
Yep.
So I think to recommit to the vows is to recommit to your relationship with God and to recommit to
The humility of saying, yes, look, we all sin, we all have temptation, we all have ill tempers and so on, and sometimes those ill tempers can be good.
Like, I always think of Jesus and the money changers, right?
He takes out the whip, because sometimes anger, righteous anger, is like just war.
It's a good and noble thing, but not to the mother of your children, even though she may be behaving badly.
So to be a leader, to be a leader is to not blame anyone.
Right.
And you want to be the head of the household, but if you're head of the household, you know, the buck stops here.
It means that you are responsible.
You get the respect and you get to be in charge, so to speak, but when you get the respect and you get to be in charge, it means that you can't blame anybody else for anything.
If you want the highest paycheck, then you have to not blame other people.
Right, right.
Yeah, you can't, you know, take
Yeah, it's the old thing that when the company's doing well, I'm the best leader there is.
When the company's losing money, it's because of those damn workers.
Right, right, right.
Exactly.
Yeah, if you want to be the head of the household, then
The head is the one that takes all, so you just have to take all the responsibility.
Now, of course, the goal is, and I think the ideal is, if you take more responsibility, your wife at some point will probably follow suit and start taking responsibility.
But if you blame her and say, well, you just don't take responsibility and that's why I'm angry, then you're modelling not taking responsibility while asking someone to take responsibility, right?
Yeah, yeah, yep.
Valid point.
And what it really comes down to, in my humble opinion, is, man, we haven't really talked about them much, but you've got four kids here.
Yeah.
Now they should be the North Star that you guide everything by.
Right.
Because they did not choose to come into this situation.
You chose to have children, you chose to keep those children, you're choosing to raise those children, and good for you,
But they're not here by choice.
Your wife and yourself are here by choice.
Anything which is harmful to your children is absolutely off the table.
Right.
Like you wouldn't feed them a steady diet of chocolate and peanut brittle, right?
Right.
You wouldn't not take them to the dentist.
Say you don't have to ever go to sleep, you do things that's for the betterment of your children, for the health and welfare of your children, and your children are currently being tortured by the level of conflict.
Right.
Now, that is a failure, in my view, of love for your children.
Because I think you love being right or being justified or being self-righteous more than the humility of saying, I have to do what's best for my children.
And if my wife is pushing my buttons, I have to think of God, I have to think of my vows, I have to think of my virtues, I have to think of Jesus, but I absolutely, completely, and totally have to think of my children.
Right.
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, if we're going to look at the duality, who's running the marriage?
God or the other guy?
Well, the other guy right now.
Well, I think so.
I think you've let hate into your heart.
And again, I understand this, where it comes from.
I think you've let hate into your heart.
I think you've let pride into your heart.
I think you've let justification and wanting to dominate rather than engender respect.
And listen, I mean, we all have that.
It's part of human nature.
It's, you know, we could say it's our fallen state or however you want to put it, but that's exactly why we need these values and these virtues and this commitment to doing things in a proper and righteous way.
Yeah, yeah.
If you crack up the marriage without having given it all of your virtuous effort, then you are modeling
Helplessness, hopelessness and despair for your children.
Right, right, and they will just simply repeat it.
Well, and yeah, what you're saying is, well, you know, you can have been together for 23 years and it just doesn't work out.
Right, and then they'll just never want to do that themselves.
Well, you will then see
Right, you know the devil gives you this immediate satisfaction of being right and dominating others and storming around, and then what happens is you get to see your children repeat your mistakes, which is appalling to your heart.
Like, that's the punishment.
People in hell, I mean, you don't have to die to go to hell, right?
In fact, dying can be a relief from the hell of seeing your mistakes be repeated on the part of your children.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
And you know what the right thing to do is, right?
This is not a huge mystery.
I'm not saying it's easy, right?
But you know what the right thing to do is.
Right.
You need to find a way to calm your temper.
You need to apologize and make restitution.
And you need to not do the tit-for-tat stuff, which is, okay, I'll take one half step towards you, but you better take a half a step towards me.
Right.
Because then you have no free will.
Right.
Right, because then you're just, yeah, always hinging in on somebody else.
Yeah, I don't think that the, you know, when I was a kid, you know, the statement was always, while the other kids were doing it, oh yeah, well if they all jumped off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you jump off it too, right?
It's like, you have to have your own ownership of your virtues.
It has to be you committing to virtues, and God is not going to say to you, well, you don't have to be good if your wife doesn't match you step for step.
That's what the devil would say, because then you can just cast aside being good.
Right, right.
Because, hey man, I took one step, she didn't take one step, so now I can go back to being a jerk again.
Right, right, right, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Excellent point.
Which is kind of like if, you know, if you and your wife were both fat and you wanted to lose weight, you wouldn't sit there and say, well, I lost two pounds, my wife didn't lose anything, so I'll just go back to eating crap again.
Right, right.
Yeah.
And if you can show your kids turning this around, then they may say, it got really bad.
And we're glad that it did, because that's when things began to really turn around.
Yeah.
It's at a point where when I come home, and I'm like, I'm staying the night, they're like, oh, please, God, go.
Please leave.
Right.
And that's got to be just tearing your heart in a thousand pieces.
Yeah.
Well, I tell my wife, I'm like, hey, I don't want to restart.
I don't want to go out and find somebody else.
I like the life and the things and stuff that I have.
And she says, well, you're just staying with me for the kids.
You don't actually love me.
And you don't actually, and I'm just trying to figure out how I can over, you know, demonstrate like, okay, no, I'm going to do this recommitment to you, you know, that it's not, well, I'm just staying together for convenience.
I'm staying together for the kids and, you know, I don't want to lose all my money.
Well, I mean, if I, if I were talking to her though, I would say, don't you try that self pity thing with me, young lady, because you chose him too.
Right.
You chose to, I mean, you knew who he was, you knew he had a temper, you knew he had a vicious tongue, and you chose to date, get engaged, get married, have children, stay with.
Uh-huh.
So, you can't be a victim here.
Because then what you're doing is you're teaching your children that you can make all the choices in the world and still be a helpless victim.
Right.
So, she chose you.
She has remained with you.
And so she can't be... I mean, you could easily say to her, well, you're just here with me for the income.
Right.
Oh, right, right, right.
Yeah, I mean, that doesn't really help anything.
And you're both still there.
And it's not up to you anymore.
It's not up to you anymore.
It's up to what's best for your children.
Right.
And of course, as you know, if you were to leave your wife, let's not have any delusions about the grass being greener on the other side of the fence.
If you leave your wife, you're going to be broke.
You think you have money troubles now?
Wait until you get divorced, and you've got two households to run, and you've got legal bills.
Or your wife has to go and get a job, and then who's going to take care of your kids?
You've got a four-year-old.
Right.
Right, so you think you're broke now.
You think you've got money troubles now.
You wait till the marriage collapses and then you'll be like, man, we were the Rockefellers back then.
Now we're the Flintstones.
Right, right, right.
So there's no grass is greener.
You're going to have way less money.
It's going to take you years and years and years to get over being married.
They say it takes about half the length of the relationship to get over it.
Right.
You are still going to be
A bit of a mean guy, but you'll be a bit of a mean guy with a huge failure as well.
Right.
And you'll be trying to figure out what to tell your kids.
You'll be a mess and you'll be unable to
Find love.
Now, if you do everything right and great and wonderful and it still doesn't work out, at least you will have acquitted yourself with honour and you'll have a good conscience about it, and that's a big step forward.
But if, you know, you say terrible things and you fight with your wife and you escalate and then the marriage, she leaves you, you leave her or something like that, you've got heartbroken kids, you're broke,
You're going to be a mess.
You're going to be living in a car, trying to date.
I don't know what, right?
But it's going to be a disaster.
And again, it's about what is best for your kids.
Now, your kids are saying, we would rather you two be apart, and that shows you just how much damage has been done to them, because for children as a whole, for their parents to divorce is generally considered, or feels like, just about the worst thing possible, but they would prefer that to what's happening, right?
Which means that you have betrayed your vows to God, Jesus, your wife, yourself, but in most particular, your children.
Right.
You chose to have them, and you gave them kind of an acid nest for them to try and get comfortable in, which they can't do.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And now, so practical stuff again.
I'm not a big one for like this practical stuff, but this is an emergency.
I'll just give you my two cents of thoughts and then I'll let you finish the chat.
Relationship detox as a whole.
Relationship detox.
This is anyone and everyone who has not helped is expendable.
Anyone and everyone who hasn't sat you down and said, dude, your marriage is going off the rails, like, what is happening?
How can I help?
This is like, we care about you, we care about your kids, family, friends, congregation members, pastors, I don't care!
Anybody who's let you slide this far into this kind of mess is expendable.
Because they're not committed to helping you.
They're not committed to the health and sanctity of your marriage and the protection of your children.
Your parents
Do they know?
Yeah.
All right.
And what have they done?
They've been one-sided.
Which is which side?
Right.
Well, obviously mine.
Well, I don't necessarily know that.
So she's terrible.
She's doing everything wrong.
You're a poor victim.
I mean, obviously not quite that obvious, but... Right, right.
That's why I don't, you know, I go to them to complain, but I'm not like, oh yeah, you know what, hey, you're right, mom and dad, I should just leave her.
But what do they say about her?
My mom says I should work it out.
My dad, he wants me to work it out, but he's also like, eh, I could see why you would want to leave.
So I guess it's kind of a mixed bag.
But what does working out mean, though?
Oh, right, right, right.
Well, you know, if I tell him, like, hey, Dad, you know, I want to go see a counseling service, he's like, okay, absolutely.
If I was like, Dad, I want to run away, he'd do it.
Okay, sure.
You know, so he's kind of going on my, you know, suggestions of how I do it.
My mom has always, because she was the one who fought to keep her and my dad together.
She's always like, yeah, no, you guys can work it out.
Sorry, your mom was the one who fought to keep... oh, your mom and your dad together?
Right, yeah, my mom and dad... Oh, I thought she was the one who was leaving the yellow pages open to the divorce lawyers and stuff.
Right, right, exactly, yeah, which is why it's not the best advice to listen to them, so I kind of take what they... you know, I listen to what they're saying, but I'm not like, oh, okay, well, mom and dad have great, rock-solid relationship advice, I'm going to follow that.
But have they ever said, gee, I wonder where you got your vicious tongue from?
My dad has said, oh yeah, hey, that sounds like your mom.
You know, like when I say something, he's like, hey, you know, you get your anger from me.
Oh, he would say, you get your anger from your mom?
Yeah.
So, he would say, you get your anger from your mom?
No, no, no, he would say that, like, I got my withdrawal, because I would tell him, hey, you know, when I'm talking with my wife, I'll say something mean, and then I'll kind of withdraw and be cold, and he's like, oh, you get that from me.
And then I'd say, oh, I will do, you know, something else, and he'd say, oh, that sounds like your mother, you know, so he was able to pinpoint where these certain traits and things like that were.
So he was, you know, he knew, like, when I would explain something, he was like, oh, well, that sounds like your mother and I. Okay, so have they said, gee, we gotta really work on this stuff, or we're really sorry that we gave you this bad modeling, because it's really having a huge effect?
Right.
They haven't said that they are... Well, they feel really bad that we're going through it, but they've stopped short of saying, wow, that's us, you know, and you're modeling that.
I'm so, so sorry that we set such a poor example.
They may have said something light along those lines, but I can't remember anything specifically.
I probably would have remembered if they had.
Yeah, I think you would have too.
Okay, so they're not taking any responsibility for modeling a bad marriage.
They see it, they don't take responsibility for it, and they are, you know, whichever direction of the wind I blow, they'll blow too.
So if I say I want to run, they'll say go ahead and run.
If I say I want to stay, they'll say stay.
And how long have you been talking with your parents about the problems in your marriage?
I've generally just been talking with my dad.
Uh, because those were times when it was like, okay, she's actually kicking me out of the house.
She's like screaming at me.
I want a divorce.
Leave me.
Don't come back to the house.
Yada, yada, yada.
And I was like, I don't know where I'm going to go.
I don't know what I'm going to do.
Um, and so those were times when I was like, um, I didn't know what to do.
Um, and so, so for probably about the last, uh, I, I talked to my dad back in, uh, August when we were first going through the reconciler.
Um, and I, I didn't go into any depth.
I was just like, Hey, we're having problems.
It's, it's really rough.
Um, and then I gave him kind of an update.
Okay.
Hey, actually we're working things through.
And then maybe three weeks or so ago, I told him, Hey, um, by the way, now it actually looks like it's super official.
Um, it's gotten super bad.
And he's like, well, you know, I was really hoping that you guys would work it out, but you know, sometimes these things happen, you know, you kind of relapse from, you know, you, you make up and then all of a sudden, boom, it's just,
It's just kind of like a time delay.
Okay, so the man is completely useless.
Worse than useless.
I mean, look, the conversations that we're having, I mean, I'm no expert in this area, just some common sense stuff, but
Your dad, who's known you forever, right, and who watched you grow up and saw you as a baby, and like, he said, well, you know, sometimes these things happen.
Well, shit, I can say that.
Anyone can say that.
Yes, sometimes things do happen.
That's really insightful, dad.
Boy, does that ever illuminate the landscape.
Yeah, yeah.
Shit happens.
Yeah, good one.
OK, so they're modelled bad behaviour, they're not taking any ownership, they excuse themselves, we did the best we could, they provide you no insight or valuable information and don't take any ownership for anything they did.
Right.
Correct.
Well, if you had to choose between your parents and your wife... Pretty expendable, my parents.
Well, I mean, they're the past, and your wife is your future, and your kids need their mother and you guys together getting along a lot more than they need their grandparents.
Right.
That's, uh... Yeah, that is not easy.
I feel really bad because it's like, okay, I'm going to pick my parents over my wife.
And it's like, I don't like delivering bad news to anybody to include my wife, even though I will do it.
All right.
I'll get, I'll get into it with my wife.
But the, the anxiety that I have from like, you know, having to tell the boss something, no, or, or to displease somebody, let alone my parents.
But then like, I like, I love my wife so much and I'm such a freaking
Jerk and dick, and it's like, here I am, like, well, I don't know if I can cut ties with my parents.
Listen, I'm not saying you have to cut ties with your parents.
I don't know.
But you've got to have a clear line in your head where you see these people, like, all the behavior that is fucking up your marriage.
Right.
Anybody who's modeling that behavior, you have to take a break from.
Now, this doesn't mean, oh, mother, father, I will never see you again.
But in your head, in your mind, it doesn't matter what happens in your head and in your mind.
It doesn't matter what happens in the world.
In your head and in your mind, everyone who's modelling irresponsibility, everyone who's modelling a complete lack of insight, anybody who's blaming others, anybody who's useless,
Right.
You have to have a mental barrier.
I don't know what happens in the world, but you have to have a mental barrier.
Right.
Which is, my parents are doing the opposite of whatever helping is.
Right.
Because if your parents won't take responsibility, and they're with respect and honor in your mind, will you be able to take responsibility?
Right, right.
No!
You won't be able to do it.
Now, if you say, you know, my parents won't take responsibility, that's kind of toxic.
I don't know what happens in the world.
I don't do the world thing.
I just do what's in the mind, right?
But you have to denormalize all of that stuff.
Because you are still looking up to your parents and accepting your parents, their behavior bleeds over into you.
It's kind of like a possession.
Whatever we approve of, we reproduce.
Whatever we normalize, we act.
Right.
So, I'm not saying you've got to go up and march and have some horrible conversation with your parents or anything like that.
I have no idea.
But in your head, you have to say,
These are people who have a bad marriage, they're not giving me any good advice, they don't take any responsibility, and they threaten the bond with me every time I disagree with them.
Are those good elements to have in my marriage right now?
In your head?
Again, what happens in the world is not important to me.
What happens in your head is.
Right.
Absolutely not.
If you're going to quit drinking, you can't be around a bunch of alcoholics.
Right.
And if you're going to start taking responsibility, you can't be around people, again, whether it's physical or not doesn't matter, but you can't be around people who don't take responsibility if you want to take responsibility.
And you do!
If you can't hold your parents to account, how on earth can you hold yourself to account?
Right.
I don't know how to put the distance between those relationships.
Well, I don't know either.
You could certainly say, you know, man, I'm taking a break from all my relationships just to focus on my marriage.
You know, I'll be back in touch.
I've really got to sort this out.
Again, I don't know what you should or shouldn't do, but that's certainly a possibility.
They say, no, no, no, we want to help.
And it's like, yeah, I appreciate that.
But you know, everything I've been doing hasn't been working.
I just need to take a different approach.
And I just have to put everything
Into my marriage.
Look, I mean, if you had a pickup game of football every weekend and it was interfering with your marriage, you'd say to your...
You know, your wife is mad, and she was overwhelmed, and three new babies in the house or something, right?
And you'd say to your football buddies, you'd say, hey man, I've got to take a break from the football, because, you know, I've got to focus on my marriage, my wife's, you know, we've got three babies at home.
Do you know what I mean?
Like, you would say that, right?
And your buddies wouldn't be like, hey man, that's rude, that's bad!
They'd be like, hey man, we understand, you know, like, go deal with your marriage, we'll be here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, that's a good point.
I mean, the one thing you know is that all of your relationships have not prevented this crisis from hitting the way that it has.
And that means everyone is a participant in this disaster, right?
You, your wife, her parents, your parents, extended relatives, friends, whoever is not.
You said that there's one pastor that you have a good relationship with.
So everyone who's not treating this as the emergency that it is.
Is a participant in the pileup.
We have kept it relatively secret.
She has not told her parents.
I have told my parents.
There have been a couple of people at work and they're like, they're very supportive.
I mean, supportive of like, you know, trying to save the marriage and everything.
But, you know, they haven't like.
Yeah, well, I mean.
But her parents should know.
She has not told them, no.
No, no, but she shouldn't.
Listen, you're a parent, I'm a parent, you know when your kids are upset, right?
You know when your kids are happy, you know when your kids are unhappy, you know when your kid comes home from school before they say anything, you know whether they've had a good or a bad day, right?
Right, right, right.
So, this idea like she hasn't told them and therefore they don't know, that's willful ignorance.
Right.
And the fact that they have zero idea, if it's true, that they have zero idea how their daughter's marriage is going, I don't even know what to say.
How is that even remotely possible?
Their relationship is probably along the lines of the level of disastrousness of my parents.
Right, so she's not telling them because they would only add stress to the situation, I assume, right?
Yeah, I would guess that they would probably say, you know, for her to leave me.
Yeah, they would not be supportive of it.
Okay.
So, they're not helping either.
Yeah.
In fact, she has to put... it's a funny thing because she probably gets mad at you for putting on a fake smile when the world is falling apart, right?
Yeah.
I'm sure she does that with her parents, too.
Yeah.
And I'm sure you don't respect that either, because you're looking at her saying, well, wait a minute, you could be totally nice to your parents, but you're calling me every name in the book or whatever, right?
Right, right, right.
So, it's the same thing for both sides.
You're both seeing each other act the best to the people who've harmed you the most, and act the worst to the people you chose.
Right, right, right.
Yeah.
You know, don't shit where you live, man.
The people you live with, they're the people who should absolutely always and forever get your very best time, attention and consideration.
Yep.
Not strangers, not people from the past, not parents, not waiters, not whoever, teachers.
Yeah.
And we all know that.
It just seems to be hard to put that into practice.
Yeah.
But yeah, I mean, I don't claim any intimate relation, but Jesus has got to be weeping about what's happening to these kids.
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.
And that is on you, and that's on your soul.
Yeah, absolutely.
If you were me, every time we've tried to sit down with the kids and say, hey guys, we're going to work on it, we're going to make it, like we're going to try to figure something out,
They're like, oh please God, no, please just stop.
You're me.
You walk into the house tomorrow at the end of the guard shift.
Knowing that things are somewhat stable, only because I'm not there, what would you recommend?
I wouldn't say a damn thing to the kids unless I had at least three months of good behavior under my belt.
Okay.
Right.
I mean, you're not, but if you were an alcoholic and you had promised your kids you were going to quit drinking 20 times before, but you just kept back drinking again, then of course you wouldn't tell them because it would just be cynical, right?
Right.
You would stop drinking, and then after a couple of months of not drinking,
Oh, they'd probably bring it up, right?
But if they didn't, you'd say, oh, you might have noticed by the way, right?
A couple of months ago, I quit drinking.
I'm really, really sorry about all of this.
And then you can talk about it, and they won't be rolling their eyes like I've heard this 20 times before.
Right, right, right, right.
Yeah, excellent point.
Excellent point.
Well, so, but then they walk around each day, and they're like, hey, what's going on with your mom and with your mom's relationship?
Well, I mean, my response to that would be it should never have been your job to know there were any problems.
Right.
I'm really sorry that you guys got caught in the crossfire.
It's inexcusable.
It should never have happened, you know.
For what it's worth, my mom dumped her relationship problems on me and I was aware of them and I hated that and I did the same thing and I'm ashamed of that.
It was the wrong thing to do.
We're working on it.
I don't want to get into details because we're working on it and
It's not your job.
Your job is to be a kid and enjoy your childhood, not to worry about mom and I. But we're working on it, and we're committed to each other, and we're getting good advice, and we're trying to make everything right.
But yeah, please, don't make this your consideration.
It's our job, any more than you should worry about the bills or the taxes or whatever.
Right, right, right, right.
Excellent, excellent, excellent.
Yeah.
But just treat your wife like you would treat a stranger.
Right?
You could be perfectly nice to a stranger.
Listen, I've said some relatively harsh things.
You're not popping off on me, right?
Right.
So, treat her like a stranger.
I know that sounds odd, right?
But strangers get better behavior.
Right, right.
I mean, everybody should, but again, what you're saying, why are you dishing it out to the one who loves you the most, and you're giving the worst?
That you got to them, you know, and you shouldn't be doing that.
Well, I mean, you can be nice, and if you are going to be nice, be nice to the people who you have to spend the rest of your life with and you chose to have children with.
Yeah.
But you can do it, so do it.
I mean, I know, easier said than done, but I mean, you do it easily every day.
I mean, you have a fight with your wife, you go to the grocery store, and you probably make jokes with the cashier.
Right.
So you can.
You can let go of your temper, and you can be positive and engaging and funny and warm, and you can do all of that stuff, so just do it with her.
Now, that doesn't mean overcoming resentment and bitterness and all of that, but you know, that's the godly way, isn't it?
Right, yeah.
To commit to virtue, though, it hurts like hell.
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
Well, if she doesn't piss me off, then I'll piss her off.
Yeah, the no excuses thing is like, yes, she's going to piss you off.
So what?
You piss her off.
But it doesn't give you an excuse of bad behavior.
It's like the old joke, I could resist everything except temptation.
Right.
It's like, well, it's only a virtue if you're tempted, right?
I'm not tempted to become a ballerina, right?
I mean, it's only a virtue if you're tempted, so the fact that it's hard sometimes if she's pushing your buttons to stay calm, well that's exactly why it's a virtue.
It's pretty hard to forgive people who've just nailed you to a cross, but that's kind of the thing, right?
Right, right, right.
Yeah, yeah.
And, you know, I mean, usually what happens is if somebody's pushing your buttons and you feel that temper rise and you don't act it out, you're probably just going to end up bawling.
Honestly, like, I mean, there's that level of vulnerability underneath all of that, that level of sadness and rejection and pain.
And that's what connects people.
Yeah.
Yeah.
In addition to the things that you've said,
For my wife, I hope this is not coming across as shifting blame.
I feel very, I feel terrible for all the things that I've done for her.
Or that I've said and done to her.
You know, how do I help support her in building her confidence?
So say for instance, you know, if a woman looks in the mirror and says, Oh, I look fat or I look ugly or something.
And you say, no, you don't.
And they say, Oh yes, I do.
Or whatever, you know, and it doesn't matter how many times you compliment them.
They don't,
Let's just tell me more.
Oh, you feel fat?
Tell me more.
What is it you dislike?
Or who are you comparing yourself to?
You know, just be curious.
You don't take it personally.
It's not something you have to fix.
She feels fat.
I mean, don't you ever have that?
You're just like, oh man, I thought I could fit into these pants every now and then.
Or whatever, right?
Or you've just looked at some gymnast and you're like, holy crap, I got some muffin top.
Right?
So, is she just feeling fat?
It's not a thing for you to fix.
You're not her...
No, it's like, oh, tell me more.
When did you think that?
Or have you felt that?
You know, it's not a problem.
You just be curious about it, right?
Right, right, right.
Well, I feel bad because I tell her, like, oh no, you do look beautiful.
You do.
And then later on it's, well, you're looking at other women.
You don't think I'm attractive.
No, no, then you engage like it's a real thing.
Right.
You know, like if you're playing dinosaurs with your kids and they say, oh look, there's a stegosaurus, you look over and say, oh my god, and scoop the kids up and run to the car and call animal control.
No, because it's just imagination, right?
So if she's picturing herself as fat or ugly, it's like, oh, tell me more, right?
Right, right.
Oh, well, you think this, and you know, I didn't call you fat, so just tell me what you're thinking about.
I mean, do you feel unattractive?
Do you feel... And the other thing, too, is, you know, if you want to help her with her confidence, maybe stop tearing her down, you know, verbally.
Right, right, absolutely.
Yeah, no, that's definitely a piece of the equation there, yeah.
Yeah, I mean, if I go burn someone's house down, I don't get to say, well, how do I help them maintain their house?
It's like, well, maybe don't burn it down?
Right, right, right, right, right.
Yeah, that goes back to the CEO taking credit for when the business is good, and when it's not, it's everybody else's fault.
Yeah, if she says, I feel ugly, it's like, oh, tell me more.
Or, you know, I feel unattractive.
Oh, I'm curious what you mean by that.
And, you know, tell me more, right?
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Because I want the simultaneous hypocrisy of both my statements right now of
I want her to feel attractive.
I want her to feel loved.
And then I said all these terrible, horrible things in the past to her.
If she says, I feel unattractive, you can also say, yeah, well, I've said some things that were really bad and that did not help.
And for that, I'm very sorry.
Yeah.
Yep.
Absolutely correct.
Absolutely correct.
I owe her one hell of an apology.
Well, and I think that's important, but before the apology, you just need to behave better, because otherwise you apologize, and then you end up in another fight.
Like, just work to not react, work to be curious, work to be vulnerable, work to be open, work to be direct, don't manipulate.
If you hate the fight, say, I hate the fight, you know, and just be direct, and then...
After a certain amount of time where she's grown to trust you because you've been more consistent, then I think you can apologize and it won't be perceived as manipulative because there's already been a big change, right?
Right, right, right, right.
Okay, okay.
Excellent point.
And of course, if she wants to talk, I obviously would be happy to help.
I mean, I care about you guys, of course, but I also think of these kids and whatever can be done, especially the four-year-olds and the younger ones as a whole.
Whatever can be done.
All right, brother.
Well, listen, I did carve off a chunk of time from today, but I'm really glad we had a chance to talk.
I absolutely cross my fingers and wish you guys the very best in what's going on.
Thank you, Stephan.
God bless you.
Thank you so much for your pinpoint insight and your ability to just break these things down.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome, man.
Keep me posted about how it's going, and I certainly wish you all the very best.
