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Nov. 9, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux
01:54:49
Dad of My Kids Is a Criminal! Freedomain Call In
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Time Text
Hello? Hello, hello.
How's it going? Hey, how are you?
I'm well, I'm well, I'm well.
Again, sorry about yesterday. I'm all ears.
Why don't you lay it on me?
How can I best help?
You're not the first that keeps me waiting, so it's fine.
I'm sorry? You hear me well?
Yes, you sound good. I said you're not the first man to keep me waiting.
And I'm really sorry for that.
Talk about not breaking the pattern, but I'm all yours now.
Okay, great. Great, it's been a while.
Is my microphone not...
Yeah, I can hear you just fine.
Just if you want to launch into what we should talk about, I'm all yours.
Yes, so...
I was seeing my brother the other week and we spoke about you and our previous call many years ago and since I am still struggling with my man, so to speak, he was very on to me about something that we discussed about My looks.
And he really wanted me to like rebrand myself.
So he was saying that my unluck with bad men is due to how I present myself with Clothing and appearance.
Hello? Yes, I'm still listening.
Yeah, so that's the topic.
Well, I guess what's happened with men since we last talked?
Nothing, if you ask me.
So what is your brother talking about in terms of things that have gone badly?
I'm... I'm not together with my children's father anymore.
I'm not sure if you keep wanting me to ask questions, but you have to give me information to work with, right?
Like one sentence doesn't give me much to talk about, so just tell me what's going on, what's been happening with your children's father and so on.
Okay, okay. Fine.
So... Last time we spoke I told you about I was briefly seeing a guy with Tourette's and this guy happens to be the father of my two children.
And I have a three-year-old girl and a 10-month-old boy.
And we kind of split like about more than a year ago.
And he hasn't seen the children since this spring.
And this is because, well, first of all, he's not in the country.
And second, he wasn't...
He wasn't, like, being sane.
If I can...
Well...
Explain it short.
He's bipolar.
He has PTSD. And quite a bit of a narcissist.
So when the children came, some of the problems got very clear.
Well, he also got worse with his...
Sickness, so to speak.
And yeah, so I'm alone with them and I still have the same look.
And I guess that's...
My question is...
Is this true?
Like, should I shave my head?
Like, never wear makeup?
Go... I don't know, get dressed in...
I mean, I'm a mother today, so I would say I'm quite casual, but maybe even dressed down even more to maybe sometime in many years, but still, like, maybe meet someone later on.
Okay, and sorry, just remind me, sorry to interrupt, just remind me when it was that you and I last talked?
2016. 2016.
Okay, so after we talked, I guess some years after we talked, you decided to have kids with this mentally ill, narcissistic, bipolar Tourette's guy?
Yeah. Can you tell me the reasoning behind that decision?
Well, he wasn't as bad as he is today.
And also, I... I got kind of stuck with him because I was put in a debt kind of way where he was promising to help me out.
Sorry, you were put in debt?
What do you mean? So he wanted me to, when we met I had previously ended a relationship and he wanted me to go to court against my previous partner about our home.
And when we did that, I said I don't want to, but he said I should.
Long story short, I lost in court and I had to pay him a lot of money.
And he said, well, I will pay it for you.
And that took many years, like a lot of years going through this in Sweden.
That's how it works. And then I was almost like...
About to turn like 30 years old, so I really wanted to have children.
I still had my debt.
And it was kind of like, I want to have kids, do we continue or not?
And if not, we should end things.
And he said, well, okay, let's do kids.
We did. Things went quite all right.
So, I mean, otherwise we wouldn't decide on having two kids.
And then last summer he started acting very weird.
Acting weird towards me and our kids.
Weird how?
I guess he was just repeating his own childhood traumas.
Bye.
But he would yell and scream at her, our daughter, or me, about anything.
Oh, so not just weird, like, I don't know, he was doing ballet dance in the living room, but, like, mean or vicious or abusive, is that right?
Yes. And had he shown any signs of this sort of verbal abuse tendencies or this kind of aggression before?
Very small tendencies, like he could get very angry.
But not when she was around.
And then I just...
I remember coming back from vacation with our daughter, and I was pregnant.
And he was acting weird in all kinds of senses, like he would...
Yell at me if I was like picking out the trashes just telling me that you're doing this to you're doing this because you want me to smell the bad trashes and he would have an outlash I don't know what you call it in English.
An outburst. Yeah and he was not yelling at me and like No, just weird things.
I'm sorry. No, no, I sympathize.
I have no problem with the emotion.
Please, go on. So, I really tried to make it work because I always wanted to have a family and I told him, you know, we can go to therapy together, although everyone around me was quite...
Sure that he was the one that needed to be, like, taken care of, basically.
But I still wanted to try, and he didn't want to, you know, fine.
Last things that happened was because he was so aggressive in the home.
When I was pregnant, I was, like, almost nine months.
And I was scared and I said I will call the cops if you don't leave the apartment.
I'm sorry, what was he doing that was scaring you so much?
I didn't know I would speak so much of this.
So, no, it's hard for me to explain because it's so irrational.
Like he would be going around the apartment talking to himself, being all angry, throwing things, packing bags and saying he would destroy my life or My family's life.
You mean like sort of death threats or life destruction threats?
I mean, he really sounded pretty nasty, right?
Nasty things, but just trying to ruin the life around for people.
Like, I will make...
Yeah, let's...
Yeah. Yeah. So I told him, you know, if you don't calm down and leave the apartment, I will call the cops or I will, you know, call your father and ask him to come here.
And his father came because I didn't want to call the cops.
And his father came and he was trying to, you know, be calm and speak to him.
Calm him down and say, you know, let's leave the apartment.
Let's leave her alone and let's get out of here.
And he would start hitting his father.
And my daughter was here.
And I was like nine months pregnant.
So, like, he's very scary when he...
When he gets going, but his father is bigger than him, so he got him out.
And after that, he went out with his friend since kindergarten, and they went to the club, and then they went home to him, to his friend's place.
And something happened where they started, you know, fighting.
And my, so to speak, partner, I think he threw a bottle or something in his head or like really took him down.
So the guy was hospitalized.
And my guy, I don't know.
I don't want to say his name.
He left the country and he's not here.
Oh, he left the country, I assume, because he was afraid of criminal charges?
Yes. Yes.
And he has, like, another home base.
So he's there doing his business.
And is he in any contact with the kids or is he sending any money or anything like that?
Yes, he is. We are speaking every day.
He wants to speak probably 15 times a day.
I'm sorry, with you or with the kids or both?
I'm with the kids, yeah.
No, no. I mean, does he want to speak with you or with the kids or both?
Yes, yes, he does want to speak with the kids, but he also wants to check and control on me like what I'm doing.
And he has been asking my, or like our friends, to keep an eye out on me, what I'm doing and how much weight I lost.
Okay, so it's kind of stalker stuff, is that right?
I don't know if that counts as it, I guess.
Well, I mean, he's checking up on you rather than...
He's checking up, yeah.
Okay, so a little bit, a little bit sort of information gathering rather than chatting with the mother of his children.
Yes, yeah. But he does send money and We are video speaking with the kids, and I visited him with the kids this spring, in April.
Mainly for his sake, not because I wanted to see him, but, you know, he wanted to see the kids.
So I went, and that didn't go well at all.
What happened? Well, he was supposed to have made sure we had somewhere to go when we came and we came late that evening.
So he was going to fix, you know, food for the kids and like chairs in the car so we could go safe with him.
I mean, I can't sit and hold the baby.
And he hadn't fixed these things.
So when we were Driving, he was having an aggressive meltdown.
He would drive the car.
He starts driving super fast, screaming, just having a...
I don't know what you call it.
Like a meltdown or a rage episode or a tantrum.
But certainly putting the family in danger, right?
Yes. And I was sitting and holding the baby.
He was like six or five months.
And our daughter was sitting in the front seat with him.
But this was not the first time he had done that.
So I was like, you know, here we go again.
I'm just buckling up, sitting and holding the baby tied to me, hoping that He won't crash the car.
And I never say anything because, you know, things will just get worse.
I don't want to upset him even more.
And the baby got sick when we were in the country.
So I only stayed for two nights.
And he even left us at the countryside.
When the baby was sick, it was a mess.
When I needed to get to the hospital with the baby, he had left us in the countryside with no car at his mother's home, and there was no car to have, no taxi or anything, so I could take the baby to the hospital.
And I call him and I tell him, look, I have to go with him because his fever was so high and he was just like laying in my arms, all like not moving.
And he answered me and he said, you know, I have to go to the hospital.
I have to go to the hospital because my eye is hurting and you're being such a fucking bitch.
Okay, so that's how he speaks.
Okay. I solved the problem.
I went to the neighbors.
Oh, can his mother not take you to the hospital?
Oh, she's 80 years old and she has dementia.
Oh, gosh. So, when this was happening...
Wait, his mother's 80?
How old is he? He's 45.
And how old are you?
33. Okay.
All right. So, sorry, go ahead.
Well, that's it.
Like, that's the last time we saw him, and he has been asking us to come to visit, but I have told him no, because the last...
The visit wasn't going so well.
And I assume he hasn't checked in with his friend to see if his friend is going to press charges or if he can come back to the country or anything.
Yeah, they are speaking.
And the friend, he has said that he's not going to press charges and that he's going to the police station too.
Tell the truth, so to speak, that nothing happened and, you know, but he hasn't done that and he's not a very, like, reliable person either.
Well, I mean, he's friends with your, I don't know, you guys never married, right?
No, fortunate, fortunately.
Right. Well, I don't know, fortunate or not.
I mean, if you'd had a restriction called marriage, you might not have had babies with the guy, right?
Maybe. Well, you know, people in Sweden don't always get married to date.
Like, that's not a weird thing to not get married.
Right, okay. Sorry, go ahead.
Well... That's basically it.
So I'm just taking care of the kids alone and he sends money.
I will start to study again this January next year and I just can't wait to just, you know, be free from him also economically, like not having to I'm sorry, how are you going to be free from him economically?
Well, if I start to get some money myself by working.
I'm sorry, I thought you said you were going back to school.
Was it school or working? Did I have that wrong?
No, I go to school, and I have two more years to finish.
Oh, then you work. So, who's taking care of your kids when you're at school, or who's going to take care of them when you work?
So, I do have them at kindergarten, but other than that, he has promised to get me a nanny for someone to help me.
No, no, but sorry, who's taking care of your kids now when you're studying?
No, I'm not studying right now.
I get to stay home with our babies one year until they are one years old.
Oh, so it's like taxpayer money is paying for you to stay home, is that right?
Yeah, but it's not a lot of money, so that's why I still need him.
So you get like a minimum, do you say that?
Yeah, you get income.
Right, okay. Income.
And you're supposed to just take care of your kid and then when they are about one years old, they go to kindergarten.
They go to kindergarten at one, really?
I mean, that's before you're even supposed to stop breastfeeding them.
That seems quite something. Well, in my case, I... I want it that way because I want to go back to school, but with my firstborn, I stayed home with her until she was two years old, and that is considered a very, very long time.
But during that period, things were going better between us, so we were possible to keep me at home, but normally in Sweden, They can't or don't want to prioritize staying home that long with their children, so normally they start at around one years old.
Okay, got it, got it. So you are graduating in two years, but you're not studying at the moment, is that right?
Yes, not studying, just taking care of the kids.
And then the idea is that you go and study and your kids go into daycare?
Or I guess they call it kindergarten, but it's probably mostly like daycare, right?
Well, not if you ask them.
You have to say kindergarten.
Otherwise they will be very offended because they have special activities, you know, learning activities and such.
Yeah, okay. I mean, so does Dave there, but all right.
Okay, so your kids go into kindergarten and you go back to school and then the hope is that they stay in kindergarten and you work and then they go to school and so on.
Is that right? Yeah, yeah.
And he would, since he's not here, he has promised to get a nanny here for For us, from the country he's currently in.
Because he's not able to be here to help me out.
And do you believe that's going to happen?
Well, he is a weirdo.
But usually when he promises stuff, he does it.
But I do feel like my fate is in his hands.
And not only that, I think that if he does get me a nanny, my fate is even more in his hands because if he's not happy with me, he would just, you know, cancel it.
Yeah, I mean, you're kind of giving a crazy person leverage over you in a way, right?
And a violent person too.
Yeah, yeah Okay, I don't I
don't see Right now I see it as my first option to see and trust him
and see what happens with that and And if he isn't keeping his promises, I just don't know how I will figure it out since my family is not living in the same city as I. Well,
I mean, I don't like to give people solutions, but I'm just curious.
I mean, you could go and live with your family and stay home with your kids, right?
I mean, physically that's possible.
Maybe there's some other reason why.
You mean my family as in my mother?
Yeah, you're a family of origin, right?
I mean, you could... You say you're not in the same city, but you could move to the city that they're in and they could help you out with your children and then you could stay with them, right?
No, I mean, I could move to the same city, but at least my mother...
We already discussed this this summer.
She doesn't want to have this load.
Oh, so your parents don't want to help out with you and the babies, right?
No, not in that.
I would need a lot of help, right, if I were to finish my studies.
Right, okay. So they don't want to help you in that way, right?
No, no. And could they chip in and pay for a nanny by chance and keep you free of this violent guy?
No. No, they can't afford to or no, they wouldn't just by choice?
I think both.
Like maybe they could a little bit, but no.
Okay, so how can I help?
Obviously I can't tell you what to wear or how to attract a guy who wants to take care of your kids, but how is it that I can help you?
Well, I still go back to, well, then the dialogue me and my brother had.
And it's interesting because I feel like there's two camps in this question where either people believe like oh that's bullshit you can absolutely be and look the way whatever you want no matter what look it is and still meet someone that is Okay, hang on. You didn't call a philosopher up for fashion tips, right?
So I'm trying to sort of figure out what it is that I can do that's going to be the most helpful.
I can't tell you how to dress, right?
Does that make sense? No, but you can tell me if I should stop dressing a certain way.
Okay, let me ask you this then.
So, what was it that attracted you to, I don't know, we call him Bob, right?
That's not a very European name.
Okay, so we're called Bob, right?
So, what is it that attracted you to Bob, and why did you have two children with him?
I mean, I know that you said that you were in a lawsuit that you lost, and he said he was going to pay the bills...
I guess that doesn't look like a very good decision now, but I guess it makes sense at the time.
It's probably cost you a lot more than you got from Bob, and certainly will over the years.
But what was it that got you going with Bob?
What was it that attracted you to him?
From the very beginning, I was just having fun with him.
He was different from the normal Swedish guys who are very...
Well, but you might have gone a little bit to the opposite extreme, right?
To go from a passive guy to a guy who puts his friend in the hospital and threatens your family, right?
I mean, that's maybe a little too far the other way.
So what was it about Bob that attracted you so much?
I don't know. We just had a great time.
Like, he was taking me on adventures, kind of.
And I don't mean, like, adventures like the rich guy before.
I mean, like, small ones.
Just him and I just doing small things together.
He made me feel like I was in a team with him.
And... We always had a good time, like we had our own little...
Okay, so he was very charming, right?
And he spent some money on you, I guess not a lot, but some.
And how good-looking was he?
Well, he's good-looking, but he's not...
I mean, he's not modern-looking, if you know what I mean.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
So he was good-looking, and he was charming.
And when did you find out about his mental health problems?
Well, quite soon he told me about the PTSD, but I don't think I took it too serious.
I'm sorry, was the PTSD from childhood or something else?
From childhood and something else too.
Was it like war or criminal stuff or what else was it that was the adult PTSD stuff?
Criminal. Being a criminal or being on the receiving end of criminal activity?
Depends who you ask.
If you ask the court, he is the criminal.
Okay, so he was, I assume, a violent criminal with significant childhood trauma, and he told you, I guess, about all of this while you were still dating, is that right?
Yeah, well, the childhood trauma came later on.
Okay, but the adult criminality you knew about pretty early on.
Yeah, he was the one bringing it up.
Okay, and how long had you been going out when he told you he was a convicted violent criminal?
Like two months.
Okay, and when he told you that he was a convicted violent criminal...
Did you have any thoughts about not seeing him going forward?
Well, because of the story that he told me, I was interested in hearing his story because I felt like there was something missing in the story he told me.
And the story he told you was that he was innocent or unjustly convicted or the courts got it all wrong, that kind of stuff?
Something like that, yes.
So I dug into it and I had my own...
What do you say?
So I got my own opinion of it.
And what was your own opinion of it?
You don't have to go into any details, just in general.
Um... Well, that the court system is not bulletproof and that there are many flaws in the system and that it's not always like justice.
Well, as it turned out, he does have violent criminal tendencies because he later put his friend in the hospital through assault, right?
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so it doesn't seem like the court got it totally wrong and that an entirely innocent and peaceful person was unjustly accused of this crime.
They may have got it wrong in that particular instance, but they kind of got it right about his character as a whole, didn't they?
So, do we put you in jail for that?
I don't really agree.
I'm sorry, say again? So do you put everyone in jail if they're not?
No, nobody's talking about who should go to jail.
We're talking about who you should have children with.
It's not to do with jail.
Right? I mean, he did turn out to be a violent guy who threatened you, threatened your family, drove insanely fast and basically put his entire bloodline in peril and put his friend in the hospital and so on, right?
And called you an effing bitch because you needed to take your baby to the hospital when he had a problem with his eye.
So, we're talking about the character of the man that you had children with.
Yeah, not a good choice.
I'm trying to understand the choice.
Right, I'm trying to understand. So, what year was it that you met him?
Sorry, where did I meet him?
No, what year? What year?
2016. Right, okay.
And was this a substance of the conversation that you and I had back then?
We were speaking of...
How I was supposed to find, you know, the right person, like a good person.
Okay, so you and I talked before you met this fellow, right?
We spoke exactly when I had met him and you said if I didn't watch out I would probably end up with some of the, you know, weirdos with Tourette's and I laughed and I said, you know, I actually just met someone with Tourette's so I started laughing.
Yeah. So I just met him, but I also told you that we were not serious.
Because in the beginning, I never thought I would be serious with him.
I thought we were just hanging out and having a good time.
Okay. All right.
So I said, be careful you don't end up with someone with Tourette's, and then you ended up with someone with Tourette's, right?
Yeah, the irony, right?
Well, it's just not taking advice, right?
Absolutely. So the question is, not that anyone should do anything I say or don't say, but I'm just curious, how did you end up having kids with this guy?
And certainly after the first one, when I assume additional instability came up, how did you end up having kids with this guy?
And the reason I'm asking is not because we can undo that choice.
You have the kids that have the father they have, but because...
If you want to, I assume that part of the question about how you dress is that you want to date, right?
And this is the question that any guy who's going to be safe around your kids is going to have a thousand questions about your past, right?
Yeah, and I mean, my past...
Doesn't make sense. And I know that.
It makes sense in some way.
We don't know exactly how, but it makes sense in some way.
Because, look, a guy who might want to date you, first of all, he's going to have to somehow get over that you have two kids under three or four years of age, which is a long-term major commitment for a man.
And then he's going to find out that you have a dangerous, criminal, violent...
Ex-partner or father of the children who's still in your life, who's also checking up on you to see what you're doing in a kind of stalky kind of way.
Well, I would never date me.
Well, I mean, I don't know how men would overcome those barriers, if that makes sense.
Like, you're a single mom, you've got two kids under three, And you've got a violent, dangerous ex who's still checking up on you.
I agree with you.
So what does it matter how you dress?
I mean that's adding another thing on the list I guess.
you.
Maybe that's what he means.
Like, it adds another thing.
Like, you also look like a shallow...
Well, I mean, you want men who are safe to be around, right?
Obviously, right? You want men who are safe for you and your children to be around.
But men who are safe to be around know how to evaluate danger.
Is that a fair thing to say? Yeah.
And how do you look to a man who is good at evaluating danger?
Well, some men would probably think that it is dangerous to date me because...
I don't know.
Maybe they would be afraid that some other guy would look.
That's at least how the father of my children...
Sorry to interrupt, but you already have a violent, dangerous criminal in your life who's the father of your children, right?
Mm-hmm. Does that make sense?
Yeah. And a man who's good at evaluating danger will look at that situation and what is he going to think?
Danger? Well, yeah.
I mean, the guy's still in your life.
He's paying your bills. He's getting you a nanny in the future.
And he's checking up on you.
And, you know, maybe he comes to visit or maybe you go to visit him and so on.
Maybe he finds out you have a new boyfriend and someone who's sleeping with you and around his kids and so on.
I mean, how's he going to react?
Oh, God. So either he would like try to ruin my life in different ways like try to sabotage for me like lose my apartment or lose my job or lose my spot at the college you know that those at the university sorry those kind of things or he would just Be the opposite.
Like, you know, I don't give a fuck.
And then... Well, no, you're missing how a man would look at it.
Which, you know, makes sense.
You're not a male, right?
But I can tell you how a man would look at that situation, right?
So if you and I were...
We met and, you know, we were interested in dating and I found out, Ebola, that it's...
What I would be concerned about most is your ex or the father of your children coming after me, right?
Yeah. Oh, he would definitely do that.
I also believe that.
I don't know if I would dare to meet with someone.
That would have to mean that the man would have to be like him.
Kind of. You know what I mean?
It would have to be something pretty odd.
And it would be like a man who's attractive enough that you want to date.
I assume you're pretty, right?
So a man who's attractive enough that you want to date is also attractive enough to have a lot of options, right?
Does that make sense? Sure.
So he's going to have probably 10 different women that he could date or maybe settle down with if he's in his early 30s and he's reasonably attractive and so on, right?
Yeah, but I wouldn't go for me, so I would never go for me, and I don't think I will meet one of the good ones my age.
I really don't. I mean, I can't compete.
So who do you want to meet?
Well, I guess...
Bye.
Maybe no one, I don't know, because in my head I'm like, well, maybe I should meet with someone who has kids, but I don't want to meet with anyone who has kids and problems, just like everybody else would think of me, and I don't want to meet with anyone who doesn't have kids, because if we do end up in love, he would be like, oh, but I want to have another kid, and I don't want another kid.
And I would still always be scared that the father would still sabotage for that person.
And if I care about that person, it's not right to put him in that position, like having his life sabotaged.
Right, so this is sort of my question about what is what does it matter what you wear?
Because apparently I attract even more freaks.
Thanks.
Thank you.
Sorry, I don't know what that means.
Because the way I look or present myself attracts the rock bottom.
Oh, so is this your evaluation?
Because I remember your brother was saying stuff.
Is it your evaluation that you dressed in some sort of hypersexual fashion that drew the worst kind of guys to you?
Is that what you mean? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
I just want to make sure I understand what you mean.
I don't agree.
My best friends don't agree.
Like, I'm not dressing hypersexual.
I walk around in sweatpants.
Most of the time when I go to the gym.
But I have blonde hair.
And I do my makeup.
Right? So I could always not do that.
You know, just look like Well, come on.
I don't think it's the fact that you have blonde hair, go to the gym and wear makeup is not why you're in this situation.
I think we can both agree on that, right?
Because there's lots of women who have blonde hair, wear makeup, go to the gym who don't end up in this situation, right?
So that's not causal. I mean, it's probably my old child, but that makes me pick.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Your childhood doesn't make you do anything.
Your childhood doesn't.
If you grew up around a crazy man, then, you know, like I grew up with a crazy mother, so I worked really hard to choose the sanest woman I could find.
So your childhood doesn't make you do anything.
But, I mean, obviously there are influences.
Is there anything that you think influenced you in your choice that comes out of your childhood?
it and if so what was it?
Well yeah so my parents are divorced and when I was very young so I didn't see my
father so often.
And I have a very strong mother, so to speak, like, not very affectionate.
And... It's still hard for me to talk about because I always wanted to be with my dad who's more affectionate but I also wanted to be always with my mom to get her affection and for her to like me and always missing my father because we didn't meet Very much.
And when I was a teenager...
I'm sorry, why didn't you meet with your father much?
Because she had the custody.
And he lived...
So he moved to another town.
Not far away, but an hour away.
And then he moved further away when I was seven or eight, maybe.
He moved like Eight hours away.
So for a long period we met like once a year and then for a while even longer because I didn't want to go where he was.
Sorry, I thought you wanted to be with your father but then you didn't want to go?
Can you help me understand that?
Yeah, well I wanted to go but I didn't want to go because he was living like out in nowhere and my mom didn't speak much of my father but it was very clear that she didn't like him and my father did speak to Me and my brother about our mother and we spoke about how difficult she was to live with and I think it was creating this dissonance within me where I wanted to love both my parents but my mom wouldn't allow me to love my dad and my dad wouldn't allow me to love my mom and I did live with my mom And we were riding horses together and, you know, still having school there, friends there.
So it was easier for a while to just choose her side, so to speak.
And when did you first start listening to me or this show as a whole?
I believe it was in 2015.
Okay, so eight years ago, right?
Yeah. Okay.
And what did you get from me or hear from me about how to choose a romantic partner or the father of your children?
I don't recall.
Bye.
I don't recall.
Because it was many years ago that I listened.
Well, I mean, but we had a conversation, right?
Also, I guess, in 2016, right?
Yeah, we did.
So what did you get from me or this show about what you should look for in the father of your children?
Well, something...
Safe and not from the bar.
I mean, that would be a bare minimum, I suppose, right?
Something safe and not from the bar.
Is that when you met your husband? Was it the bar?
No, I met him when I was doing...
I was asked to do a job to...
Be a model for some brand and I didn't know it then but he was the owner of the company and he later on took contact with me and we had some friends in common like there is a small circle So we had friends in common and he contacted me after I had done that.
Oh, so he was the owner of the company that hired you as a model and he got in touch with you that way?
Yeah.
Okay, so as a model, what do you know about why most men would initially be attracted
to you?
Why they would be attracted to me?
Thank you.
I guess the length, maybe charisma, I don't know.
I'm sorry, as a model, right, you're paid for being very good looking, right?
But I'm not a model.
I was doing this photo shoot, but I'm not a model.
But you're pretty enough that you were chosen to model the clothing, right?
Or whatever it was. Yeah, well...
Okay, so let's put it this way.
As a non-model who's very pretty, what do you know about why most men would initially...
Obviously, I'm not saying it's the only attractive thing about you, but as a very pretty woman, what do you know about why most men would initially be attracted to you?
Well, it's always the first look then, I guess, and that would be that I am tall and...
I have blonde hair, I guess.
And that's the first thing you see, right?
Sure, yeah. And then when you start to speak, I hope there's something else.
Like, I can be quite funny.
You wouldn't know, but I can.
Yeah, obviously this is not a time for your greatest comedic flights of fancy.
I get that, and I sympathize with that, I do.
Like, okay, so, I mean, I don't know if this is just a male thing, but if there's a man who, I don't know, pulls up to the nightclub in a Lamborghini with, like, a, I don't know, a $250,000 watch in his hand, and he goes to the—he's got the most expensive clothes you can imagine, and he goes up— To the VIP area and orders bar service and puts everything on a platinum credit card.
What does he think that most women would be attracted to him first and foremost for?
Oh, the black card.
Well, the wealth display as a whole, right?
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Right. So if I were to say to a man who did that, why do you think a woman would be attracted to you initially?
Initially, what would be her first attraction?
What would he say? The black card.
Well, not just the black card, but the Lamborghini, the expensive clothing, the quarter million dollar wristwatch, all that kind of stuff, right?
Now, it's a little different because a man has to show this kind of stuff, whereas as a pretty woman, you just are this kind of stuff, so to speak, right?
But isn't that what the father of your children, isn't that what he would at least initially be attracted to is your height, your blonde, your looks, your fitness, your figure, your physique, whatever we want to call it.
But that would be the first thing, right?
Yeah, that's why he's asking about my weight right now.
So, yes. Definitely.
So why is he asking, is it because he needs to know if you've gained weight?
And why does he care if he's in another country?
No, I think he only cares because, first of all, he was only attracted to me when I was very, very thin.
And then when I became pregnant with number one, I gained a lot.
And then I lost it.
And then I became pregnant with number two, and I gained a lot.
And then... I mean, when he went away from here, I was still, like, curvy.
Some men would prefer that, but he would never prefer that.
So now that he hasn't been here in a while, I think he wants to know if I'm thin and slim, if other people will look at him and think, like, wow, because that's what he considers, wow.
And maybe he would consider that to...
Make an effort, you know, that I'm worthy of more money, if I'm worthy of more affection, and if I would still be fat and ugly, according to him.
And what did your weight fluctuate from and to over the course of being single and being pregnant?
So when we met I was 58 kilos and I'm 174 centimeters tall and when I was
just about to give birth, you know, the last days I was like 90 kilos every time.
So yeah, you put on more than baby weight as a whole, right?
Yeah, definitely. And did you make an effort to stay...
I mean, some people are just kind of naturally slender and almost no matter what they eat or whatever.
Are you someone who has to work to remain slender or does it just kind of happen of its own accord?
No, I have to work for it.
And when I met him, I was strictly vegan and working out a lot, not eating to be that...
So, not naturally.
Like, if my body could choose, I would be, well, not fat or chubby, but definitely curvy.
Like, I will always have an ass.
And some men prefer that, but he certainly don't.
Okay, so you dieted, I guess, fairly strictly and worked out fairly strictly.
I mean, not for health, obviously, to some degree, but also because it made you more sort of conventionally attractive.
Is that right? Not just to be attractive, I think.
No, I said that. I said it was also with health, but to some degree it was to be attractive.
Is that right? Yeah, and I guess today when I look back, I would consider...
I wouldn't say it back then.
Well, how many calories were you eating?
Well, not enough because I had a problem with the stomach.
I was bleeding in the stomach.
You know, because I wasn't eating enough.
It was sour. I don't know the English.
Oh gosh, so you were really half starving yourself at this point, right?
Like you had... I was starving myself. And it's, you know, sort of skinny pretty girls with stomach disorders is kind of a cliche, but...
Okay, so you were endangering your health.
You were dieting so hard, is that right?
Yeah, and I started to lose hairs and stuff.
So today when I look back, I'm like, oh, it's not nice to yourself.
Well, and then I guess when you became pregnant, your body was like weeping with relief and you may have overdone it on the calories a bit, right?
Yeah, I've never experienced such a hunger in my entire life and I'm still like, wow, how did I even get pregnant when I look back?
And I also understand why I got so hungry because otherwise I would probably not have kept the baby.
Yeah, I mean that level of starvation can have, as you know, can interrupt your period.
Yeah, and I did have troubles getting pregnant and not until I gained like a couple of kilos.
That's when I got pregnant.
Okay, so why do you think you needed to be so thin?
Well, to be pretty and loved.
Well, why did you need to be so thin if you are smart, funny, good conversationalist?
Then there would be things to love you for other than being skinny, right?
So, if you're that skinny, does it not indicate that you may feel that you don't deserve love for your qualities of character, but rather for the outlines of your figure?
Well, I feel like it's not enough.
Like it's not enough to just be a good person.
I don't feel like it's for my own part.
Like it's not good enough to be who I am.
And I have this relationship with myself where I don't love myself or the way I look.
And I'm always trying to fix things, you know.
Whereas when I look at Other people I'm not obsessing over other people's looks at all.
Like, you said to me, oh, that I would want to date, like, a good-looking guy.
And if you would look at my previous men in my life, they're not, like, the best-looking guys.
Not at all. Like, I've had mediocre ones and chubby ones and all kind of guys.
But when I... When I... Look at myself.
I feel like you need to have the whole package, you know, to be loved and otherwise it's not possible.
So, you know, I'm always fixing things, you know, with Botox and other things to fix and maintain because I don't feel like I'm worthy of To be loved if I'm not, you know, as good.
But can you love someone for their looks alone, really?
No, I don't think you can.
No, you can't. You can't, particularly if their looks are an offshoot or an outgrowth of not loving themselves to begin with.
Absolutely.
So, why don't you love yourself to begin with?
I don't know. I wish I didn't know.
No, you do know. Yeah, you absolutely know.
And I don't know, doesn't ever, you know, you've listened to the show, it doesn't cut it here, so what do you think?
Um, I don't know, low self-esteem or why I don't love myself.
That's what you're asking me.
Yeah.
Is it because of my childhood?
Well, I am.
I am still wondering...
Daddy, I know you will listen to this...
But why you never chose to stay close to us?
Because it never made me feel enough to stay around And my mom is a tough cookie
She's not very affectionate.
So I guess...
I would want to be in certain ways too, when I was a kid, you know, for them to love me.
Sigh.
Bye.
Thank you.
you But I was always looking at my mother, who is also very beautiful, like model, beautiful.
And I was looking at her and I wanted to look like her and be like her.
And she said, well, I think I was like six years old.
And she was doing her makeup and looking in the mirror saying like, painting her cheeks.
And I said, why do you do that?
She said, well, you put it on your cheeks.
So you see the cheeks.
Because models, they have high cheeks, high cheekbones.
And I said, do I have high cheekbones?
She said, we don't know yet, but I have high cheekbones.
I always wanted to be like her.
I don't know.
Haven't you kind of become like her?
I mean, this is the whole thing, be careful what you wish for, right?
I'm not blaming you for that, of course, right?
But, I mean, you've ended up with kids and a father of your kids who's very far away, right?
Exactly. And her beauty didn't keep your dad around, right?
No. No.
So I guess I'm trying to sort of figure out why you would want to be like your mom if your mom couldn't sustain a marriage and the guy, I guess her husband or ex-husband, moved progressively further and further away.
I don't want to be like her personality at all.
I just wanted to look like her.
I thought she was like a princess.
No, but looking like her...
I assume she was slender as well, right?
Yeah. So, looking like her is taking on some of the personality traits of focusing on the looks rather than the quality of character, right?
Yeah. I mean, did she put as much time into working on the quality of her character as she did working on her looks?
Not at all. No.
Yeah, so it's kind of like a Venus flytrap, right?
It looks sweet and smells good, and you get in there, right?
Yeah, well, I want to break that circle, at least.
I want to be very present.
Well, yeah, I mean, the call is for you, obviously, but it's mostly for your kids, right?
You have a daughter?
Did I get that right? Yeah, and I don't want to make Those kind of mistakes.
Well, I mean, to be frank, you already have made some of those mistakes.
We're just trying to not have you make more, right?
Absolutely. Right, right.
I want to be affectionate, and I want to be present, and I want to be involved in their lives and what they're doing.
Which would have been a lot easier if you'd married the right guy and he could take care of you and you could stay home with your kids, right?
I agree. Yeah, so I'm not trying to make you kick yourself.
I'm just saying that you have already made decisions that are going to be tough for your kids and, you know, we have to acknowledge those mistakes.
Everybody does. And that's the best way to avoid reproducing them, right?
Yeah.
So...
How lonely are you at the moment?
I'm not lonely.
Bye.
I think you can guess.
Like, I'm never alone, right?
I have my children. Yeah, but having children doesn't prevent you from being lonely.
In fact, it can kind of make it worse because you've got no one to share your children with and what they're doing and how they're progressing and everything.
That's what I meant. I'm very lonely.
How did your mother's life go after she separated from your father when you were, I think, was it six or seven?
So they separated when I was like three years old and when I was about four years old she met her current husband so quite quickly, you know, moving forward and they're still married.
He's seven years below her in age and After a couple of years they got married and they also have a daughter, so my half-sister, she is 11 years below me.
And their relationship, I would say, is very good.
I was always happy to have the stepfather that I have and I am still.
And I was super thrilled to have my My sister.
I even saw her. Your mother, I guess, pulled off a kind of miracle that would be helpful for you to pull off as well, right?
Which is to get a guy who would take on your kids and all of that, right?
Yeah, she did pull off a miracle.
Right, right. Yeah. Okay. And what did your mother say when you got involved with the guy we call Bob back in 2016?
She didn't say much.
For a couple of years we didn't have too much contact.
I was trying to find my way, live my life.
I had like breaking free from a small city and also from her.
It wasn't always easy.
And then when I met him, I brought him around, right?
I took him to dinners and to Christmas.
But then we didn't have those kind of issues back then, so we had a good time.
And then after our firstborn, we did have, she and I had some conversations.
About his mental health, like, it happened a few times that he was not, like, stable, and I called him, like, her to discuss him, and he said he was depressed, and, you know, but then he got out of that, and we had, you know, the second pregnancy, and that's when he started acting out very weird, and I was calling her very frequently, because at some points I was Scared that he would do something stupid.
I mean, I was terrified.
I was pregnant with my daughter, and I locked ourselves in the bedroom.
This is when his father...
But two months into dating this guy...
Sorry, how long were you dating before you got pregnant?
Five years. So, five years.
Okay, so for two months into dating this guy, you found out about his criminal conviction for, I assume, some kind of violent crime.
Is that right? So, what did your mother say when you told her that the guy you're dating was a convicted, violent criminal?
Well, she was listening.
I'm sorry, say again? She was listening.
She was listening? Okay, but what did she say?
Not too much.
Oh, so she didn't say that this might not be a wise guy to date?
Yeah, she did, but she was more like, okay, so how do you...
Why are you on his side on this, and why are you on his side?
Like, tell me more about it.
And... She was asking questions about the case, etc.
But I was always protecting him in this.
And the truth is, in this particular thing, I still am.
And that has nothing to do with him, really, because I do believe that fucked up things happen, and this was not, in my opinion, The right thing to do, or...
Sorry, what's the right thing to do?
Well, to put him in jail over what happened.
Yeah. Okay, so, I mean, he is a violent guy, and he's dangerous to you, your family, your kids, his friends who he put in hospital, but the court got it wrong back in the day, but...
It was right in the essence of who he is, right?
Yeah, the other things I completely agree, and she agrees as well.
Like, she doesn't want him in my life or the children's lives.
And she has been very clear about that.
So she had concerns about you dating him, like, five years almost before you had kids.
She had concerns about you dating him, right?
No, no, she didn't.
No, no, she said she was concerned, like, what's the story with the crime and the courts and the prison and so on?
Yeah, but she was not saying that she thought I should not be dating him or that she didn't think he was a good guy.
She didn't say that.
So she was concerned about his criminal conviction in jail time for violent activities, but she didn't think you shouldn't date him.
She never said that, no.
Well, I don't know what we're doing here.
I mean, did she say those words exactly, or did she say, I have concerns about him as a romantic partner, and then, yeah, I guess as you continued to date, at some point you said you had trouble getting pregnant.
So at some point you said to your mom, we're going to try and get...
Pregnant when trying to have babies, right?
And what did she say about that?
Yeah. Well, she said that, first of all, that I didn't have to rush because I was worried that I didn't get pregnant.
And she said, well, you know, you will be able to have children from many years.
No, no, no. I don't mean about getting pregnant.
I mean about him as a father.
No, she didn't say much, no.
And were you in touch with the father of the five years before you met this guy and you had kids, between you meeting this guy and you having kids, were you in contact with your father at all?
Yes, I was.
And what did he have to say about all of this?
Maybe I remember it wrong.
I know he will listen to this, but as I recall, he was concerned from our beginning where there was a lot of fights and he was like, you know, that's not good.
But then Hang on, sorry.
I'm just trying to back up here because I'm sure I missed something.
I have a memory, I'm sure I'm incorrect, but I have a memory of you saying that things were a lot of fun at the beginning and you had a lot of fun, and it was a lot of fun, with these little adventures that weren't too expensive.
But if I understand this rightly now, your father was concerned because you were fighting with this guy a lot at the beginning?
Yeah, we did have fights.
Okay, so why wouldn't you tell me that?
Why are you telling me all of this fun, fun, fun stuff?
Like, I can't help if you don't tell me the truth, right?
If I've got to find out by accident an hour later, like, what's the point of the conversation if you're not going to give me the facts?
Well, I thought everybody had fights, so...
Maybe...
If the fights were bad enough that your father's concerned, I don't think these are typical where should we go for
dinner, I'm not sure.
Okay, so that happened.
Thank you.
Okay, so you had fights at the beginning, enough that your father was concerned about the guy, right?
And did you tell your father about his criminal stuff, like Bob's criminal history?
Yes, I did. And what did your father say about Bob's violent conviction in jail time?
He was, after getting the story and the facts on my side, and, well, our side, so to speak, like, you know, the system is fucked up and it's not always bulletproof.
Shit happens.
Okay, so your father got it wrong.
Uh-huh. Okay. I mean, I guess that happens, right?
So your father was okay with you dating, living with, I assumed you lived together, and then having kids with Bob, right?
Uh-huh. Because, you know, if he emails me saying, no, I wasn't okay with it, then I don't know what to say at this point.
I have some skepticism because, you know, normally the husbands or the fathers are a little bit better at figuring out some of these dangers.
You know, not always, of course, right?
But, you know, if I had to put my money on one of your parents figuring out that Bob was dangerous, I'd put more money on your dad than your mom.
But if you're going to tell me that your dad...
Thought that Bob was, you know, an innocent victim of an unjust court system.
That's, you know, I mean, I have no way of independently verifying anything that you say, right?
Yeah, so, I mean, this is my, how I perceived my father.
And there's always a possibility that I wanted to Him to be on my side so much that I didn't hear things, but I still don't think I'm wrong.
No, we can't make up things. I mean, if this is what you remember, I mean, this is what you remember.
I'm not going to say that you're wrong in what you remember, because I have a vague theory, so I'll go with what you say.
Okay, so the only person who expressed any real concern was your mother, is that right?
What about your friends, or your half-sister, or I guess maybe she was...
No, she wouldn't be too young to evaluate this, so what happened there?
Well, none of my friends, though, never really liked him.
So that's probably the ones that were like, okay, you know, do what you want, please.
but he's not my kind of guy.
Okay, so your friends didn't like him? No.
Okay, so your friends didn't like him, your mom had problems with him, and your father, I guess, you convinced your father that Bob was a good guy.
Okay, sure, yeah.
No, no, no, I'm not trying to tell you, I'm asking you to verify my understanding.
Yeah. Is that right?
Yeah. Okay, so of the, I don't know...
Eight to ten friends, your mom, like 90% of the people in your life had, I guess, fairly significant concerns over Bob, right?
Yes, that's correct.
Okay. And your father had significant concerns, but your memory is that he then accepted that Bob was unjustly, I guess, like the Nelson Mandela of your country, so to speak, in the common perception that he was unjustly railroaded by a bad court system.
Is that right? Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Okay. So I guess then my question continues to be what was so attractive
about Bob that you decided not to listen to 90% of the people in your life?
I mean I can't really answer that because I never felt like he was, you
know, the love of my life.
I never felt that way about him.
I felt like he was...
I mean, I did fall in love with him in the beginning.
We did have fun, but I... That's my question.
What did you fall in love with?
I don't know what love of my life means to me if you give a guy two kids and it's the only kids you're ever going to have.
that's kind of love of my life territory but what did you fall in love with?
I would still go with my first answer That we just had a good time, the two of us, creating a little own world or space, and he was very intense.
But you fought. But you fought.
And you fought badly enough that your father had concerns, right?
Yes. Okay, so this wonderful world of playtime is not particularly accurate, right?
Because of the fighting. No, but I feel like I don't.
I don't really understand it myself.
So I don't feel like I have a smart answer because I don't understand it myself.
I really don't.
I mean, I hear what you're saying.
Well, and the reason is, you can't undo the past, but the reason is, if you have no idea why you chose a bad guy like Bob, how on earth are you going to choose a good guy?
I feel like it will not happen.
That's how I feel.
And that's...
Well, I am interested in the thought of, you know, maybe giving it a little push in the right direction by not looking the way I do and trying something new.
Well, would you like a possible theory?
Yeah, absolutely.
So, when you were a kid, your mother was cold and your father was gone.
I don't want to oversimplify it, but it was something like that, right?
Yeah. Right.
Now, as a kid...
When our parents reject us, which I assume you would experience that to some degree, parental rejection.
So when our parents reject us as kids, I mean, we have one of two choices, and virtually all of us make the second choice.
The first choice is, my parents are kind of messed up.
They're not emotionally available. They can't handle parenthood.
It's not my fault. They just can't.
They can't do it. And that makes them bad because they shouldn't have had kids if they can't be parents and they should get to therapy to figure out why they can't connect with their children.
But my parents are kind of like big toddlers who don't have any control of their emotions and they're unwise and kind of retarded when it comes to dealing with emotional issues.
Interpersonal contact. Does that sort of make sense?
Like that's one possibility is to say, well, there's nothing wrong with me.
My parents are just kind of idiotic this way and incompetent and foolish and unwise.
Yeah. Okay.
Now, do you know what the other option is which almost every child takes?
No. Sure you do.
You already told me. If your mom is distant and your father is gone...
Whose fault did you think it was?
My fault.
I'm not sure if you're asking me or telling me.
That's a very ambiguous statement.
I'm telling you.
It's my fault.
Right. So, if you had been better or nicer or warmer or more fun or more friendly or something like that, then your mom would be warmer towards you, your parents would probably still be together, and your father wouldn't have moved first one hour and then eight hours away, right? Yeah.
Now, do you know why most kids take that second choice?
Which is completely irrational, of course, right?
But it's only irrational in fact, not in...
experience. So why do most kids blame themselves when their parents don't
connect with them or don't seem to enjoy their company?
It's something they can't control or I don't know But it's a really terrifying thought.
It's a really terrifying thought to think that the people who were in charge of your
life are incompetent people who don't know how to connect with you.
That's really terrifying, right?
So what we do is we say, oh, they're not connecting with me because of something I'm doing or
not doing, right?
So I'm going to take ownership at the age of two or three or five or ten.
I'm going to take ownership for why things aren't going well with my mom and why things aren't going well with my dad.
And as an added bonus, I'm going to take ownership of why my parents split up.
I'm wrong. I'm bad.
I did something wrong. I'm a piece of crap.
And that's what's gone wrong in my family.
And that way I feel like I have some kind of control over the situation and I don't
imagine that I'm being driven at high speed by some blindfolded idiot who's going to
crash at any moment.
So the solution as to why you aren't loved in your own childhood mind and maybe to some
degree now is well I'm a piece of crap who's unworthy of love.
But I still want guys to be attracted to me, so what do I do?
I diet, I go to the gym, I look great, I use makeup, I, you know...
I draw men in that way.
Oh, but then when they see the real me and they treat me like a piece of crap, that conforms to everything that I thought and suspected as a kid.
So how on earth am I going to disagree with them?
Yeah, that sums it up.
So, Now, of course, your parents should have been fighting against this interpretation tooth and nail from the very beginning.
That it's not your fault you didn't do anything wrong.
It's, you know, we messed up.
We effed up. We screwed up.
Real bad. It's not your fault I can't connect with you.
You're a great kid. I'm just messed up.
It's not your fault that your father moved away.
He doesn't know how to deal with kids and he's incompetent that way.
To take the load off your shoulders is the first job of divorcing parents.
And how many of them do you think do that?
Almost none.
Almost none. When a crime happens...
Children unjustly convict themselves almost every single time.
Now, because you had unjustly convicted yourself for being a piece of crap, when your boyfriend comes along and says, hey man, I was unjustly convicted, do you realize why you defend him?
Oh... Well, if I don't defend him, he won't love me, maybe.
No, because you unjustly convicted yourself as a child.
Oh. For being bad, wrong, unlovable, drove your father away, couldn't get your mother to love you, piece of crap kid.
Right, so because you unjustly convicted yourself as a child, You can't imagine that your boyfriend was justly convicted because your experience is with unjust conviction.
To be unjustly convicted and you put yourself in a prison called skinniness, right?
That's your sentence is to be thrown in the prison cell called skinniness.
You unjustly convicted yourself or rather your parents encouraged you to so that they didn't have to take responsibility for their terrible decisions.
You were unjustly convicted as a child.
And so the principle of unjust conviction is deep down in your unconscious, and so when your boyfriend comes along and he says, hey man, I was unjustly convicted, you're like, yeah, I know what that's all about.
I know, I have experience with that.
That's interesting, yeah.
And when he treats you like a piece of crap, it conforms to what you thought as a child
as to why your parents were treating you badly.
It's like, imagine being a beautiful painting that nobody's going to pay more than 50 cents
for or nobody's going to pay more than a euro for.
Thank you.
And for years after years after years, you constantly get bought and sold, but nobody's ever going to pay more than a euro.
Now, as the painting, you have one of two choices, so to speak.
You could either say, I'm worth a million euros, but nobody recognizes my value, or, hey man, if nobody wants to pay more than a euro for me, I guess that's all I'm worth.
Yeah. Now, your parents probably don't want you to be treasured, to be truly loved, because then it would expose their deficiencies.
This could all be unconscious.
It doesn't really matter. I mean, in fact, the more unconscious it is, the more it tends to have an impact on us.
But your parents?
Man, I mean, if you had a guy, a really high-quality guy who came along, First of all, a high-quality guy is going to be alarmed and almost repelled by you dieting to the point where your stomach is bleeding.
Because he's going to say, he's going to say, he's going to say, what's he going to say?
When my stomach starts bleeding.
What's he going to say if you tell him, I look fantastic but I'm bleeding internally from my dieting, what's he going to say?
Maybe to himself. What judgment is he going to have of that?
Well, I mean, my ex would probably say, but you look great.
Right. I'm talking about a quality guy.
What would a quality guy say if you say, the cost of me looking good on the outside is internal bleeding?
That's horrendous.
He would say, how much does she dislike herself that she's willing to bleed internally just to look good?
Yeah. Well, that's how much.
And that's a lot, right?
She's willing to risk permanent physical damage.
She's willing to become infertile.
To look pretty.
And the only reason you'd ever want to look that pretty on the outside is because you feel what on the inside?
Well, ugly.
Yeah, ugly, of course.
Of course. It's like the cars with the worst engines get the best paint.
Yeah. So a quality guy would look at you, looking that good, and would say, man, you've got to be compensating for something, and I have sympathy for that, but I can't get involved.
Not with you and your current state.
Maybe you can get some therapy, maybe you can figure out why you feel so ugly on the inside that you have to look that good on the outside.
And again, there's nothing wrong with looking good on the outside.
Grooming is important, you know, hygiene is important, looking, you know, exercise.
I have no problem with that.
but not to the point where you're bleeding and you have irregular periods, right?
So your boyfriend came along and he saw a girl who didn't like herself on the inside, right?
Thank you.
Yeah. And he's like, hey man, I can treat her like crap and she'll just agree with me.
She won't see anything particularly wrong with it.
I'll just be confirming what she already believes.
She won't be able to fight me. She won't be recoiling.
She won't be running away because I'm just agreeing with her.
Her parents treated her like crap.
She blames herself. She feels like she's crap.
So I can treat her like crap and get away with it.
In fact, she'll probably bond with me even more.
Deep down, he sees the real me, who is crap!
Right? Does that make sense? Yeah, it does.
It does. So, therapy, huh?
I'm a big fan.
Right? I'm a big fan of therapy.
Listen, I'm really, really, really, really, really, really bottomless, deeply and humbly sorry for what happened to you as a child.
I don't think you've told me everything.
It doesn't matter. I'm really sorry for what happened to you as a child that you grew up with this feeling about yourself of negativity.
What happened to you as a child was not caused by you.
You were not responsible for it.
It wasn't your fault. You could never, ever, ever have fixed your parents no matter what.
and I'm incredibly angry at your parents for letting you take on this burden
rather than be honest about their own deficiencies.
But now that's in the past, right?
So I want to move forward.
What do you mean it's in the past?
You mean in the four and a half minutes since you had this revelation?
It's not in the past!
The problem is, who?
You can fix it.
You can work on it. But you've got a daughter.
And your daughter is growing up with a father.
Who's unstable and dangerous, right?
Yeah. Now, what is your daughter going to be most likely to do, and your son too, but we'll just talk about your daughter for the moment.
Is it a daughter and a son? Do I have that right?
Yes. Okay. So, how old is your daughter?
Three years. Three years.
All right. So, your daughter has been abandoned by her father.
And her father is unstable, right?
To put it mildly. Yeah.
Yeah, he is.
Now, who is your daughter going to blame most likely for her bad relationship with her father?
Me.
Nope.
I guess. Nope. Who is she most likely to blame?
Herself, of course.
That's right. That if I was a better kid, I'd have a better father.
If I was a more fun kid, he'd want to spend more time with me.
If I was more interesting, he'd want to talk with me.
If I was more engaging, he'd want to be present with me.
If I was more lovable, he wouldn't be in another country.
I don't ever want her to feel that way.
But that is the default position of children, right?
Yeah. But you have a challenge in that she's pretty young, obviously, and if you tell her the truth about her father, then that's troublesome for you as a mother because she's going to look at you and say, wait, this is the guy you chose to be my father?
Absolutely, and she's smart.
She is smart. I have no doubt she's smart.
And... Is she ever going to say anything to her father about what she knows?
And if she does, what happens then?
Daddy, is it true you threatened mommy's family?
I don't think I would ever tell her those things, though.
Well, okay, but that's the challenge that you face, and I don't have any big answers for it, just so you know.
But the challenge you face is you don't want her to take any responsibility for your choice of her father and her father's actions, right?
It's nothing to do with her. She's completely innocent of everything and anything, and is a pure victim in all of this mess and chaos, right?
Yes, absolutely. How do you get her to not blame herself without telling her the truth?
And if you tell her the truth what happens with your ex?
I'd like to believe that or I hope I guess that if I'm as Yes.
Thank you.
As good of a parent as I can be and as present with her and connecting with her, I would want for her self-esteem to be great and to always feel, you know, loved and safe with me and maybe that would like...
No, but that's a wish. I'm talking about the practical matters.
Right? I assume she's going to have a difficult relationship with her father, right?
Yeah. Okay, so she's going to blame herself for that.
Unless she knows the truth about her father.
But if she knows the truth about her father and he finds out, which he probably will at some point, isn't he going to hit the roof?
That's absolutely...
A possibility. And if you are going to try and tell her how to live and what to do and how to be good and how to make good decisions, then she at some point is going to turn around and say, wait a minute, you in your 30s were making terrible decisions.
Who are you to tell me to make good decisions?
Of course. Unless you have humbly learned and understood.
I would have to do a lot of work with myself.
You would have to do a lot of work with yourself, I think.
And listen, you're a smart, obviously pretty, you are a very verbal, I mean, anybody who can learn a second language is like a god to me, because I'm just, I mean, computer languages, yes, human languages, no.
I mean, you're intelligent, you listen to this show, so I'm going to put you top tier no matter what.
So, yeah, you can do this.
You can handle this. But, you know, as a mother, right, everything you do has to be aligned as to the best interests of your child.
And you have, you have, and along with your family, you have chosen a very challenging father for your children.
And they are going to blame themselves.
That's the default position.
How you have them not blame themselves while still retaining their respect and not necessarily setting off their father's aggression, I don't know the answer to that.
I think maybe a therapist can help with that because I don't know what to do about that kind of situation.
I don't know how to thread that needle because that's more family stuff procedurally than it is abstract morals.
But no, everything that happened to you as a child, every mistake that your parents made is entirely 150% on them.
I'm really sorry that they didn't lift that burden from you many years ago because they could have prevented exactly
this.
They should have, absolutely, but they didn't.
And that's really bad.
They should never, ever, ever have let you get one day forward in your life thinking that you were to blame.
For your parents' mess-ups.
Ever. And your parents remained willfully blind.
Willfully blind to your...
I mean, did they know about your eating disorder?
My father, I would say no, because he was concerned.
My mother...
I mean, maybe she was, but she never said anything.
Okay, so that's willful blindness.
Because if your kid has an eating disorder, as a parent, the first thing you do, I don't care how old your kid is, your kid could be 30 or 40, if your kid has an eating disorder, the first thing you as a parent do is say, okay, what family dynamics have produced this?
They say, well, she has an eating disorder because she needs to feel super attractive on the outside.
Why does she need to feel super attractive on the outside?
Because she feels unattractive on the inside.
So how did she end up feeling unattractive on the inside?
It has to do with our parenting.
You sit down, you work that stuff out, right?
It's not brain surgery.
This is complicated. But they didn't, right?
Yeah. Yeah.
They just didn't. And that's on them.
That's on them. I would guess, I would imagine, because I give all adults responsibility, so I would imagine that your parents have known for decades that you blame yourself for what they did, and they're fine with it.
Just fine with it, don't you know?
Because otherwise they would have dealt with it, and they let you carry the burden of their fuck-ups to the point where you end up with a guy like this.
And that pisses me off.
And I don't want you to take that burden.
It's not yours. What happened to you as a kid, 100% on them.
And what happens to mine now is 100% on me.
Well, but that's what I'm waking you up to, right?
Yeah, you put 100% on your parents and you take 100% on you, which means you have to...
I think I would definitely recommend, you know, get some talk therapy and study self-knowledge and all of that.
And I don't know.
I mean, what do you do with a guy who's prone to violence around, you know, and is the father of your children?
I don't know. I don't know.
I don't know. Maybe talk to a lawyer.
Maybe. I don't know. I don't. I have no idea.
I have no idea. But you simply cannot, and you know this, right?
I mean, I don't have to tell you this, but I'm just going to say it for the sake of my own conscience.
You absolutely can't put your kids in a car with a fucking maniac who drives too fast.
No. Like, you cannot put your kids in a situation where they might not be able to get to a hospital when they're unresponsive.
You can't put your kids in a situation where you or they might experience violence.
I agree. Maybe that means he has to go to therapy.
Maybe that means he has to go to anger management.
I don't know. I don't know.
But, you know, you've got to be kind of ferocious mother bear at this point, right?
Yeah. I would say I am.
And for us right now, I think it's actually for the rest that He's not able to come here to the country.
Yes, but you also do have to be prepared for that changing, right?
Yeah, I mean, that could change quite soon if the guy that he has problems with just goes to the police station.
Sorry, tell me what you mean.
Oh, his friend? Yeah, his friend.
If he would go to the police station, that could change quite soon.
Quick, I assume, and the thought of it gives me a lot of anxiety.
No, I get that. And I'm sorry for all that too.
But to break the cycle, you have to delve into the sort of moral self-knowledge stuff that is essential to understanding why you ended up in this situation.
Otherwise, the odds of it replicating are very high.
And I mean, you know just how heartbreaking that would all be, right?
Yeah, I really don't want to repeat the circle anymore.
And how do you feel, I guess, over the course of this conversation, how do you feel about what we've been talking about or what I've been talking about?
Because I can't see you, right?
I don't know how you're doing.
Well, I haven't been able to cry.
At all. And you like opened the...
How do you say?
You opened that up for me.
The floodgates is the way that we say it.
Yeah. The floodgates, yeah, yeah.
I'm happy to feel sad about it.
Like really sad.
Because I've been, I guess, suppressing it.
So I've just been going on.
Every day, not feeling.
Well, you know, single moms, they experience life to a large degree in emergency mode, in, like, fight-or-flight mode.
Because there's always worries, concerns, especially with an ex like this.
So, yeah, I mean, I really sympathize.
And it's hard to be as emotionally available to your kids when you're worried about a lot of stuff, right?
Yeah, it is.
But I've had before...
My feelings getting up during this conversation because there's a lot Yeah, and I hope that you do understand or feel how much I sympathize with your situation.
I really do. It's very tough.
And I really feel for it.
And all of the causality back in the day, I really feel for.
So I don't want to interrupt.
So I'll ask you how you do and then interrupt.
But I don't want, in some of my bluntness, for any of the genuine and deep compassion for your situation to be erased.
Thanks and I appreciate the call and I've been taking notes.
Do you need any financial aid or assistance?
As you've probably heard this before, I'm sort of happy to pay for therapy if, I don't know, I think you're in socialized medicine heaven, so to speak, or health, whatever you want to call it.
But if you do need any financial assistance for therapy, just let me know.
I'm sort of happy to help out with that.
So you can keep me posted on that.
If you can get it through the state, I'm sure you can find a good therapist.
But if you can't and you don't have the money, just let me know and I'd be happy to help.
Thanks. We get it.
As you might have guessed, we can get that basically for free.
The hard part is to find a good one.
And money doesn't necessarily solve that because there's bad therapists out there too.
Is there anything you wanted to talk about?
I guess we're sort of winding things down.
Is there anything that you wanted to talk about as we close up?
Oh, no, not that I can think of right now.
Like, I'm a little bit exhausted, but in a good way.
Okay, well, will you keep me posted about how things are going?
Yeah, absolutely. I will.
Okay, great. I will let you know.
And, yeah, I hope you'll keep me posted.
I really do appreciate the conversation today, and I wish you absolutely all the best going forward.
I'm sure that things are going to work out, and I hope that this conversation in its own way helps out with that process.
Yeah, I think it will. Okay, thank you, Steph.
Thanks so much. Get some rest. Bye.
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