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Sept. 15, 2023 - Freedomain Radio - Stefan Molyneux

02:46:07

"Stop Condemning Your Spouse!" Freedomain Couples Call In

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	Hey, how's it going? Hey you, Steph!
	You can turn off your video, I don't...
	Yeah, that's fine, that's fine.
	That way you don't have to sit and stare at a screen all day.
	Oh, it'd be great if we could see you also.
	We have pretty good bandwidth here.
	Oh yeah, I'm afraid I'm in a place where I don't, so we'll have to keep it off.
	I don't usually do video for call-in shows.
	Oh, yeah, sure, fair enough.
	I might as well just turn mine off then to save it.
	Yeah, yeah. And if you could just check, I know you've got a nice microphone there, just if you can make sure Skype is using the right microphone, because it sounds a little tinny.
	Aha, yep. Okay, microphone is set to...
	Yeah, it is set to the podcast microphone.
	Okay, that's fine, no worries.
	What we could try is connecting our headphones.
	No, I would say keep it the way it is because it's a little easier than if you can both hear very easily and all that.
	John, can you turn it up a little bit?
	Yeah, sure. I can turn Stefan.
	Exactly. We'll just have Stefan talk louder, babe.
	He has amazing powers of voice.
	I can lung it up. Okay.
	Thank you so much for agreeing to talk to us tonight, Stefan.
	Oh, my pleasure. I'm really sorry to hear about these difficulties.
	So, yeah, I mean, I'm all ears if you want to unpack for me the last couple of years.
	That sounds rough, and I'm really, really sorry about all of this.
	Oh, thank you.
	Have you received Jonathan's last email?
	I did see what you sent some pictures.
	I didn't see anything outside of that, I don't think.
	Yes, yes, yes. We sent you some pictures of ourselves.
	And then I had an email that I sent you that I guess describes the main issue kind of from my perspective.
	I can read that out if you prefer, if that's good for you.
	Okay. So...
	We are both 38 years old and have been married for nearly five years, which has been mostly happy.
	I did something a little different before getting married.
	I wrote out and itemized my expectations of the marriage and her.
	I shared this with her, explaining my reasoning.
	And had her commit in writing to my expectations.
	She actually negotiated one point with me.
	Health and beauty is very important to me.
	So I included in the expectations that she was to maintain her attractiveness, health, and girlish figure.
	And that if she becomes unhealthily overweight, it will be grounds for divorce.
	Which she agreed to in a sober state of mind.
	A lot of people think that beauty is vain and stupid.
	But beauty, the kind I aspire to, is a proxy for health, discipline, self-respect, confidence and dignity.
	She's kept her commitment to the extent that she is not overweight.
	She's maintained a very healthy weight and has a nice busty petite frame and is disciplined about eating a healthy diet.
	She still looks good naked.
	She has little to no interest in anything that might cultivate and maintain her good looks and attractiveness.
	I did get her a gym membership once, and we attended together.
	She was a little bored there.
	Now she says that there's no way she'd go to the gym or do exercise.
	She hates makeup.
	She's not very interested in dressing stylishly.
	It's been about a half decade since she refreshed her wardrobe.
	On my urging, she's gone through little phases where she would do very light workouts at home, like yoga sessions or squats in the morning.
	But she would quit any time I stopped reminding her to do them.
	She walks almost every day, running errands around town, which I'm sure helps maintain her weight.
	I'm a different story.
	I'm a little vain and do different things to stay in shape and good looking. I do things like going to the gym.
	I will suntan a bit during the summer. I try to keep my wardrobe fresh. I'm always looking for some new thing I
	can do to stay good looking, which she is not very I have talked to her about my disappointment with her disregard for cultivating and maintaining her looks, reminding her of the commitment she soberly made.
	In fact, we've talked about it a lot.
	I even put together a cultivating beauty plan for her itemizing the things she could be doing.
	I've explained to her a million times that she should exercise and challenge her body a bit primarily for her own good so that she can avoid the chronic pain and health issues that tormented her parents for decades.
	She would say, yes, I'm not going to get fat.
	I'm going to try to do a little better.
	And then she'd put in a minimal effort for about a week.
	We've thought about it enough times that I've temporarily given up trying to get her to do anything.
	So now we're not fighting about it.
	She's doing nothing in this department.
	And I'm quietly angry about it half the time.
	This distracts me from work and has even messed with my sleep.
	This is incredibly frustrating to me.
	I see other attractive women out and about, and I think about how my wife would totally outshine them if she made a little bit of concerted effort.
	I'd love to do gym workouts or some gym or some type of workouts with her, but she'd rather do movie night at home or sit on the bed and scroll social media.
	The conventional advice given to husbands in my position is If you want your wife to be sexy, make her feel sexy.
	And set a good example.
	Do fitness stuff with her.
	And I have really tried these two things repeatedly with disappointing results.
	The other advice I've heard is flirt with other attractive women.
	Let your wife see that other women find you attractive.
	This I have not done.
	Seems disrespectful.
	And I should share something big I screwed up on.
	A few years back, I would watch porn infrequently, a few times a month, which I foolishly thought that she was okay with.
	Then she checked my browsing history and had a big blow-up.
	She was very hurt.
	I committed to no more porn.
	Which I've kept.
	I haven't looked at any for over three years now, including the borderline softcore porn that can easily be found on social media.
	But the damage was done.
	She had betrayal trauma, a common response among women to discovering their partner's porn stash.
	She acted a bit crazy for a bad six months after this.
	I made a real effort to understand betrayal trauma and what she was going through.
	I read books, blogs, etc.
	We arrived at a healing habit of me doing a daily validation session with her.
	We would cuddle up and I would sincerely tell her how beautiful I found her, how sexy she was to me, how she was the only one I had eyes for.
	At the same time, I did some personal transformational work on some deeply ingrained, promiscuous mindsets I had.
	That I needed visual novelty when it came to women.
	My wife's unspoken expectations of the marriage were that I'd be 100% faithful to her.
	Even in my own fantasies and internal world.
	Anything less was metaphysical cheating to her, which I at first thought was absurd.
	But applying a lot of mental discipline, I've gotten to the point where I only think of her as a sexual being.
	I don't have a spank bank of random women in my head.
	With years of diligent commitment, mental fortitude, and hundreds of these little validation sessions, we've rebuilt her self-esteem and trust between us.
	She no longer feels the need to check my browsing history, which I gave her full access to.
	Her latest excuse for not keeping her commitments in this department is the most valid one yet.
	We lost a child in stillbirth earlier this summer.
	Now she's in grieving and refuses to do things like staying in shape or mental health habits, the kinds of things that would actually accelerate her healing.
	She is convinced that the only thing that will make her heal and make her happy again is having a healthy baby and she's eager to get pregnant again when the time is right.
	I, however, refuse to have a baby with a woman who refuses to show me the basic level of respect, making a little bit of effort to be beautiful for me.
	Throughout all this, we maintained some romance and a healthy sex life.
	We had kept up doing weekly date nights, where she would get just a little dressed up for me, and I really loved this.
	In many ways, she's a very good wife.
	Being thoughtful, helping me with errands, preparing nutritious meals, etc., But she's needlessly resistant to doing things to cultivate and keep her good looks, things that would make her healthier and make me really, really happy.
	I've even told her, let me pick up some more of the domestic responsibilities so that you can maybe take some time to do home workouts.
	And she hasn't changed her behavior.
	Earlier in our marriage, I had a bit of an anger issue.
	I never hit her, but I would yell and throw things from time to time.
	A few years, no, about a year back, she told me this had to change.
	I didn't want to be like my own angry father, so I made the decision to change for the better.
	I read some books on anger management and added on some new stress management habits.
	And I no longer explode in anger, throw things, or yell.
	So you're probably starting to see my frustration.
	I've made it exceedingly clear to her that she is my only source of womanly beauty in this world.
	I've made two big changes in my behavior, identity, and mindset to make her feel safe and align with the very high expectations of faithfulness that she has.
	I see my desire for beauty as the flip side of her desire for faithfulness.
	I have a lot of resentment around the fact that she's done little to reciprocate and make a similar effort to stay
	attractive for me.
	I don't expect her to wear makeup every day or ridiculous shoes or do 90-minute grueling gym sessions like me,
	but she could easily spend 10 or 15 minutes a day doing something that made her attractive, kept her attractive,
	and importantly, healthy.
	But she refuses because it's outside her comfort zone.
	And now I'm the one who feels betrayed, especially after how many times she promised and recommitted to staying
	attractive for me.
	And that's what I wrote, Stefan.
	Well, I appreciate that. That's very comprehensive.
	So turning to your wife, what are your...
	I'm so sorry.
	The stillbirth is...
	My mother had one between my brother and myself and it's so difficult.
	There's almost no words.
	So I just really wanted to give you my...
	Just very deep sympathy for that and just point that out ahead of time and I guess ask you how you're doing.
	Thank you. Thank you, Stefan.
	I appreciate this. Well, I have a response, but it's like 4,000 words long, and I'm not sure we have the time for it.
	Yeah, but if you can boil it down a smidge, you can certainly take as much time as your husband, and I'm happy to hear, but 4,000 words might be 45 minutes, right?
	Yeah, okay. First of all, Jonathan hasn't been to the gym for over a year.
	No, that's not true.
	I showed you a picture of me there in March.
	Just today. Really?
	Yeah. Sorry, there was a picture of you in March.
	It's now September.
	Yes. Okay, so my particular plea is to not nitpick.
	So it's like, it's not been a year.
	I was there once in March.
	You understand that's not much of a difference?
	Good point. Okay, so your demand that she exercise regularly is not something that you're doing in particular?
	Is that what your wife is saying?
	Well, he used to go to the gym very regularly until last year, right?
	Well, I carry heavy water.
	Sorry to interrupt. If you could stay off the names, I would appreciate that.
	Sure. I carry heavy water several times a week.
	Okay. Well, can I summarize then?
	Yes, please go ahead.
	Okay. So why I decided to agree with him...
	And signed the so-called marriage agreement, right?
	Right, sorry, sorry, sorry about that.
	Yeah. Oh, go ahead.
	So when I was a teenager, I was really overweight.
	I was overweight for like several years.
	I would get humiliated and rejected by my classmates, and it was really, really...
	Traumatic for me back then.
	So when I eventually dropped the weight, it was between 19 and 20 years old, I promised myself to never get overweight again as far as it's not out of my control.
	And ever since then, I have been 110 pounds and I am Five feet and two inches tall.
	Seems healthy to me.
	Yes, I have been eating a very clean, healthy diet.
	And sorry to interrupt, but there wasn't anything in the marriage contract, if I remember rightly, about exercise.
	It was about weight. Is that right?
	Yes, absolutely. And maintaining attractiveness and girlish figure.
	And you don't need to talk quite so loudly.
	The podcast microphone is pretty sensitive.
	Well, but there wasn't anything in particular about...
	And you said, sorry, this is to the husband, you said that she has maintained her petite frame.
	But you would like her to do more exercise, I get that.
	But it's not like she's completely broken...
	What she agreed to, because she has maintained her weight.
	And even through pregnancy, it's tough for a woman's body with a stillbirth, because your body is all ready to breastfeed, and then it doesn't happen.
	So it's a really big, challenging thing for a woman's physique, and she's sort of maintained that.
	She's not right outside the letter or spirit of the agreement, if I understand this correctly.
	No, she's... I mean, that's why I think there's some hope.
	That's why I think there's some hope here.
	But I'd like there to be...
	The commitment was to maintaining attractiveness, and that takes a little bit of effort.
	No, but you're not maintaining attractiveness.
	The husband, right? I mean, just to be fair, to be precise...
	Let me ask your wife. Is it attractive to you when he goes on at you about working out and how you're less attractive when you don't work out and so on?
	Is that an attractive behavior for you on the part of your husband?
	No. No.
	So when if you say well, it's really important that my wife stay attractive for me. So you nagging her
	About her exercise is Unattractive to her so in it's one of these sort of cash 22
	situations, right?
	Well the sort of paradox, right?
	Because you want your wife to be attractive to you and you're going about it in a way that makes you unattractive to your
	wife I don't want to put words in your wife's mouth, but it
	sounds like that's what's going on Sure
	Okay, so you're breaking the marriage vows in that sense I assumed that this was two ways like we will both work to
	be attractive to the other person and So it seems to me and I can I could be wrong
	I'm just hearing this for the first time but it seems to me that you the husband are breaking the vows more than the
	wife Because you're acting in ways that are very unattractive to
	your wife and the Commitment in the marriage was to remain attractive to the
	other person If I'm wrong about that, just let me know.
	Not exactly.
	The document that she signed was specifically about her.
	Oh, wait. I'm sorry.
	It's your argument that she has to remain attractive to you, but you don't have to remain attractive to her.
	That can't be your argument, is it?
	I'm very committed to remaining attractive to her.
	Oh, no, no. Sorry. You're not.
	Well, first of all, you haven't gone to the gym for a year, give or take, right?
	But if you're acting in ways that are persistently unattractive to your wife, then you are not maintaining your commitment to be attractive to your wife.
	In other words, if you're nagging her about exercise repeatedly, and it's not working, right?
	So for how long have you been nagging your wife about exercise?
	A couple of years. A couple of years.
	Is it working? It will work for little spurts.
	So no? No.
	Right. So, in general, if something isn't working, what should we do?
	Well, we need to try new things.
	Well, you certainly should change your behavior, right?
	Yeah. So, you're asking your wife to change her habits regarding exercise, but you're not changing your habits regarding nagging.
	So you understand that you're as fixed or more fixed in your behavior as your wife is in hers?
	Actually, I have I've gone through various phases where I committed to her that I was not going to nag her about it and I would drop the issue for a couple months.
	So it's It has not been persistent nagging.
	There's been times that I tried to give her space, hoping that she would start to take responsibility of this on her own.
	Right. I mean, so, but if you say I'm going to stop nagging, what that means, I think, for me, it could be different for you guys, of course.
	If I say I'm going to stop nagging, what I mean is I'm going to drop my expectation.
	So not nagging doesn't mean still having the same expectation, shooting glances at your wife, making snide comments, but, oh, I didn't nag her in particular.
	It's dropping the expectation.
	It's dropping the expectation.
	Because it seems to me this is to the husband you've made this a if she loves me issue like if she loved me
	she would Exercise if she cared about me if she respected the
	marriage if this if she really cared about me Then she would exercise and therefore her lack of exercise
	is a lack of respect for the marriage As you said a lack of responsibility a lack of affection
	for you. Is that some thing about how you think?
	Sure, yeah.
	Right. Okay. Now, for her, and I don't want to, again, this is to your wife and you can correct me if I'm wrong.
	For her, I think that you want to, to some degree, be loved for who you are and not just your shape or your muscles or the, I don't know, making your skin so taut you look like a dolphin or something.
	I don't know. But you want to Beloved for who you are, and for him to continue to nag you and to say that you are not as attractive and you're falling short and you're being irresponsible and you're breaking the marriage vows, you feel, I assume, unloved by your husband's behavior in this area.
	Does that make sense? Exactly.
	Right. So you're both acting in ways that are going to reinforce you feeling unloved by the other person.
	Now, so this is to your husband.
	Do you know, you said that your own father was angry.
	So when you were growing up as a kid, sorry, that's kind of redundant.
	You can't grow up as an adult. So when you were growing up as a child, how did your parents get you and or your siblings to do things?
	Oh, okay.
	I've got to go into deep storage for that.
	I don't think they were terribly aggressive.
	I suppose it was a mix.
	I recall...
	I recall probably my mother more so giving me free will, giving me space.
	I don't think they were terribly tyrannical and high pressure on us.
	I'm sorry, weren't you throwing things around and screaming at your wife or yelling at your wife?
	Where did you get that from if it didn't happen in your childhood?
	Maybe there's something else, but usually it's a childhood.
	Yeah, that's what I assume.
	I have a couple of vague memories of my father being explosive.
	So would you say that you're more explosive than your father?
	No, less. I mean, now, not at all.
	And yeah, less.
	Okay, so sorry, this is to your wife.
	When your husband was being explosive, how often would this happen that he would intimidate or yell or throw things or that sort of stuff?
	How often would that happen? Well, almost every time we would fight and he would get triggered somehow.
	And that's why I actually set the boundary because I got scared.
	No, no, sorry. But when I say how often does this happen and you say every time we fought, that doesn't answer my question.
	Because the next question, of course, is, well, how often did you fight?
	I mean, once a year, once a week, once a month.
	Oh, okay. Okay, okay.
	Sorry. Sorry about that. Oh, no problem.
	So we wouldn't fight very often.
	Up until 2020.
	In 2020 and 2021, we would fight very often.
	Like maybe a few times, no, several times a month, John.
	Oh, geez. Several times a month.
	Right. Yeah, I think I'd agree with that.
	Several times a month.
	And those weren't pretty at all.
	I remember one night on Christmas Eve, we went to bed at like 3 a.m.
	in the morning because we were fighting, again, over the same issue.
	Was it the exercise thing or something else and you said the same issue?
	No, no, no. It was the porn thing.
	Ah, okay, okay.
	And so I assume that his viewing of that material also had you feel unloved or undesired, if that makes sense.
	Yes, I felt like I was not beautiful enough.
	I was not enough in general.
	Right, right. Okay.
	Okay, I mean, you understand that, you know, I don't want to minimize it, of course, but if you look at romance novels or Twilight or Fifty Shades of Grey and so on that these are female fantasies and I don't know if a woman really likes reading romance novels or a woman enjoys I don't know the Twilight series or whatever it's considered romantic these days I'm not sure that's necessarily the same as cheating on her husband I understand but I really don't like the genre well no I understand that I understand that But it's still not the same as cheating.
	No, it's not, but still watching porn and pretending that you are having intercourse with those people is a bit different, especially when you're doing it right next to your wife's head.
	Right. No, I get all of that.
	Yeah, I get all of that.
	I'm not saying it's good. I'm just saying that there are female equivalents that society doesn't really talk about that much, and maybe that applies to you.
	Maybe it doesn't. Okay, so I was going to ask if sort of 2020, 2021 was pandemic-related, but it sounds like it was the other issue that you mentioned, right?
	Yes, yes, yes.
	Okay, got it.
	So a couple of times a month...
	You'd end up with your husband sort of yelling at you or throwing things around.
	Was it punching a wall or was that you or was it your dad or did I completely mistake that?
	No, I've never punched a wall.
	I think it was somebody else I was talking to.
	Sorry about that. So, okay, so a couple of times a month and then did that just sort of die out or how often are you fighting now?
	No... Actually, the last time he almost broke his cell phone because he threw it across the room.
	It was so hard that it scared me really badly.
	You know, I was like, well, next time he might hit me.
	And that's why I set a boundary and I told him he should learn to just manage his anger because I was so scared.
	Right, right. My late father used to yell, but he never did anything else.
	And I kind of knew what to expect from him.
	But my husband, he He threw things across the room and would break things and I just didn't know what to expect next.
	Oh no, listen, I'm entirely on your side and that kind of escalation of physical violence can lead to interpersonal violence.
	I'm not saying it would, but it can and definitely you want to stop it before then.
	Now, you guys said you said to be married for five years.
	How long were you together before that?
	A year and a half.
	About, yeah. And how this sort of yelling and physical violence in the environment, was that from the beginning?
	I don't think so.
	I think the first time he broke a mug in his anger was back in 2019.
	I remember it.
	Okay, so like sort of halfway a little bit.
	Sorry, go ahead. I think I've broken two.
	I think I've broken a grand total of about two mugs.
	Yeah, one was in 2019.
	It was full of tea.
	That's right. Right, okay.
	And how long do these fights generally last?
	You said one was 3 a.m.
	or 2 a.m. How long do they last usually?
	Quite a while, hours.
	Yes, hours on end.
	And did you guys see your parents fighting when you were growing up?
	Was there conflict in the house that way?
	My parents would just yell at each other.
	They never did anything else.
	My dad never hit my mom.
	It was just yelling from both sides.
	That's all. And to your husband?
	My parents, they were not very happy with each other, but I don't recall a lot of yelling.
	Okay. So, I mean, where do you think you got the idea that you can smash, yell, break things?
	Again, you say it's two cups, and I accept that.
	But again, your wife said that at least since 2020, a couple of times a month, you're sort of yelling at her, or maybe there's some physical intimidation in terms of breaking things in the environment.
	Where did you – I mean, you have to have a justification for that in your own mind.
	That's how the behavior continues, right?
	Yeah. And so what do you think is the justification in your mind where you say this is acceptable or necessary or self-defense or justified in the conflict?
	Sure. At the time, I justified it as if I cannot communicate I need to communicate rationally with my woman.
	If she is just so far into her emotions that she's not going to listen to me, then I need to communicate with her emotionally in a striking way.
	If she's not listening to you or she's not listening to reason, as you say, then you can kind of terrorize her.
	You can kind of frighten her. Is that right?
	Yeah, that was sort of my thinking at the time.
	Okay, just if you can explain to me how that is justified, right?
	I mean, if you're trying to negotiate, let's say you're going to buy a car and the guy wants to sell it to you for $10,000 and you only want to spend $7,000, obviously you wouldn't throw things at him until he agreed to sell the car at your price.
	Like you wouldn't negotiate in any other situation, right?
	With physical violence, right?
	So I guess I'm just curious as to why it would be so different with the person you claim to love the most.
	Like why you'd have the lowest standards in a way, or the most self-indulgent standards, or the most aggressive standards with the person you claim to love the most.
	Well, it's not really justifiable.
	That's why I stopped doing it.
	No, you stopped doing it because your wife told you to stop doing it, and I assume that there may have been some sort of ultimatum or something like that.
	But you did it for years and I'm not trying to pick at you.
	I'm just genuinely curious.
	There has to be some justification for this in your mind and where that might come from.
	Is it the idea that women are just so irrational that you kind of have to scare them into being rational or they'll never submit to reason so they have to submit to aggression or that there's something to do with your view maybe of women or something like that that says that this is an acceptable thing to do?
	Yeah, I guess that was it, more or less, is that I would try to explain something in a clear way to her.
	And then when I was just continually running into the great wall of female stubbornness, I would feel the need to communicate things in an emotionally striking way.
	And yeah, I don't recommend that, guys.
	No, okay, so I think I understand it.
	So from your view, you're in the right.
	You've explained it, you know, patiently and reasonably.
	She's not listening or she's still being, I think you said stubborn.
	She's still being stubborn. She's resisting you.
	And so in order to get her to understand or at least to accept or end the argument you
	need to be aggressive because if she did listen to you she would agree with you.
	The fact that she's not agreeing with you means that she isn't listening so you have
	to raise your voice in the same way like everybody has this if you have a house, right?
	Like you're in the basement, your wife's on the second floor and you need something
	and you just bellow at each other.
	Like she's too far away for me to just murmur, she's too far away for me to call out, I kind
	of have to stand at the bottom of the stairs bellowing and sometimes that feels like half
	the marriage.
	So you have this idea that you're in the right.
	And if she's being stubborn, she's not listening, she's not agreeing, it's because she's not accepting that you are in the right and therefore you have to escalate until she submits.
	Is it something like that? Not exactly.
	Correct me where I'm wrong, of course.
	Sure. It wasn't exactly that I needed to be right and that I needed her to agree with me.
	No, no. Sorry, I didn't say needed to be right.
	You felt that you were right.
	Not that you needed to be right.
	You were right. And it's almost like if your wife is driving towards the edge of a cliff...
	You tell her, hey honey, turn around, and she doesn't turn around, and then you're like, hey honey, turn around, and then you grab the wheel and you pull it, because otherwise you go over the cliff.
	Like, you're definitely in the right, you shouldn't drive off a cliff, and she's for some reason driving off a cliff, so you have to escalate so that you don't go off the cliff.
	I don't know if it's something like that.
	Sort of, but more so that I wasn't heard.
	I wasn't being...
	That she was choosing not to understand me.
	Oh, sorry.
	So she did understand you, but she was just resisting you for some reason.
	I felt that she was choosing not to hear me.
	That she was only hearing the storm of feelings within her own head.
	Okay, so she was relating to her feelings in reality, but she was imagining that those feelings were your perspective, or her feelings were so strong that you were invisible, and you had to sort of shout over the crowd noise of her emotions.
	Is it something like that? Yeah, yeah, there you go.
	Okay, okay.
	I think I understand that.
	So she's very, very emotional and...
	Her emotions aren't to do with listening to you, right?
	Because we can also be very passionate about listening to someone and so on, right?
	So her emotions were in opposition to your perspective.
	Is that right? Sure, yeah.
	Oh, and I'm sorry. Sure sounds like you're kind of accepting something and I'm really trying to describe it accurately.
	So if it's not accurate, I'm happy to be corrected.
	Yeah, something that I would say to her a bunch is that I would say, babe, compare your feelings with reality.
	Please observe reality and then compare how your feelings align with reality.
	Do I say that to you very much anymore?
	No. No, not anymore.
	You used to a lot.
	I used to say that a lot to you, yeah.
	Okay, so do you feel that women as a whole have difficulty comparing emotions to reality?
	Yes. Okay, and you're not gay, right?
	No, no. I mean, I don't know.
	I mean, you go to the gym.
	No, I'm kidding, right? Hey, not in a couple of months.
	Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
	So women, and listen, I'm not saying this is objectively true.
	I'm just trying to sort of make sure I understand the mindset.
	So women are very emotional, right?
	Is that your perspective, right?
	Yes. To women, it would seem to me that emotions are more real than reality is.
	Okay. Well, no. I mean, hang on.
	First of all, feelings are part of reality, right?
	Feelings are part of reality. Sure.
	Okay. So, and I did interrupt you.
	I just want to make sure I get that point across.
	I'm sorry that I interrupted you.
	You were saying something around women and emotionality.
	Yeah, I was making the very witty point that your Prime Minister is Justin Trudeau because feelings are more important than reality to women.
	Okay. So, if we assume that, and look, obviously there's a lot of people who say this and so on, right?
	So, if women are very emotional, right?
	And for women, emotions are more important than your perspective or objective reality or whatever you want to say, right?
	Why are women like that?
	For some sort of evolutionary psychology reason, I would assume.
	Because they...
	Yeah, because something about needing to be accepted by the tribe and not kicked out by the tribe, something like that, I would assume.
	Yeah, I mean, if we say that women, to whatever degree, right, they do seem to score higher in trait neuroses and negative affect and so on.
	So if we say, and it could be 1%, like whatever it is, if we say women are a little bit more emotional than men, that's because women have to keep babies and toddlers alive.
	And babies and toddlers, I'm sorry to talk about this with what happened to you earlier in the summer, which we'll get to, but...
	Women are there to keep babies and toddlers alive, and babies and toddlers, how do you communicate them?
	Well, you can't communicate with babies using language.
	So the way that you communicate with babies is empathy, feelings, and so on.
	And like if you're responding to empirical cues, your older children will demand things and use language and then you'll ignore the younger children when they'll die, right?
	So the reason that women may be a little bit more emotional than men is because that's how we survived as a species.
	Or to put it another way, women who were as, quote, objective and rational as men didn't quite take as good a care of their babies and those genes died out.
	Or to put it another way, men who chose women who were more like men Had their children die at higher rates, and therefore neither those men nor those women, those genes did not survive.
	So the reason that women are the way they are is because of what men choose and what allows us to survive.
	Does that sort of make some sense?
	Yeah, well said.
	Okay. So why are you trying to talk her into being a man?
	That's why I asked if you're gay, right?
	Yeah. And I'm only slightly joking about that, right?
	Because it seems to me you're trying to talk her into being a man.
	Go to the gym like I do.
	Be more rational like I am.
	Be more objective like I am.
	But you married a woman.
	And women are not the same as men.
	Of course, we overlap enormously.
	But, you know, there are certain small areas of difference.
	And I'm sort of trying to follow why if you say women are like this...
	And you want to be attracted to her as a woman, then why are you trying to turn her into a man?
	I'm sort of trying to follow that. Sure.
	To get real specific about my wife, in my experience of women, she is a whole lot more rational than the vast majority of the women that I've dealt with in my life.
	And earlier on in our relationship, there were a number of times that she would listen to me and I would, yeah, I would make an argument.
	I would make a rational case for some sort of thing.
	And she would, and she would make a change, a behavioral change, or she, yeah, so I guess I'm, I, Try to convince her of things because it's earlier on.
	I feel like it's kind of the foundation of our relationship.
	And it is something that has worked in the past.
	Oh, so are you saying that the longer she's been in a relationship with you, the less rational she's becoming?
	Yeah, she's becoming more neurotic.
	But that doesn't speak very well for you.
	Aha! How so?
	Well, because if I have a girlfriend who's, you know, whatever, super fit, works out an hour or two a day or whatever, and then she gets progressively fatter and lazier when she's with me, I'm part of that equation, right? Yeah, sure.
	So if she was more rational before she had much exposure to you, and then as she gets more and more exposure to you, she gets less and less rational...
	That's got to have something to do with what you're doing, right?
	That's one way to look at it.
	No, no. That's not one way to look at it.
	That's not one way because your partner doesn't act, obviously, in isolation, right?
	No. So in her interactions with you, as your relationship progresses, she gets less rational.
	That has a lot to do with what you're doing.
	It's not 100%, but it has a lot to do with what you're doing.
	Listen to your wife here.
	I'm sorry to be talking about you like you're not here, and I haven't forgotten about you, and we will absolutely get back to you.
	I just want to make sure I understand this perspective.
	So, the more time she spends with you, the less rational she becomes.
	That doesn't speak well for your ability to bring out the rational side of people.
	Does that make sense? Okay.
	So there's got to be something you're doing that is drawing out her less rational side or hampering or diminishing her more rational side.
	Now, this is to your husband.
	This is the last question before we get to the wife.
	Do you enjoy paying your taxes?
	Yes. I have expatriated and take a number of steps to minimize my tax burden.
	But no, of course not.
	Right. Now, if you want to give to charity, we generally enjoy that.
	If a good and trusted friend wants to borrow a bit of money, we generally are fine with that.
	If your wife wants to buy something, let's say you're the sole income owner, we're fine with that.
	So what's the difference between charity and taxes?
	Voluntarism. Right.
	It's pay or else, right?
	Yep. So with your wife, you have an or else.
	Be more fit or else.
	Exercise or else.
	The or else is you're going to nag her.
	There's going to be a fight. There's going to be a disagreement.
	There's going to be aggression. You're going to smash your cell phone.
	I mean, before you... Yes.
	premarital agreement right stay stay fit or I'm gonna divorce you right or as you said that this
	will be grounds for divorce right
	yes now do you think I mean, how do you respond when someone threatens you?
	Like, I mean, with taxes, if they say, pay this tax bill or you go to jail, how do you
	As a man, how do you respond to threats?
	Like, if your personal trainer says, come to the gym, or I'm going to slash the wheels of your car, like the tire of your car, or I'm going to key your car, or...
	Or I'm going to spray paint, you know, lazy pig on your garage door or whatever it is, right?
	So if you have someone in your life who demands that you do something under threat, how do you respond?
	Well, in the example of when my wife told me I needed to stop porn or else our marriage would be over, that was a tremendously positive ultimatum for me.
	That was an ultimatum that moved me to align more with my values and to become a better person.
	So, of course, when it comes to Dealing with the government or some tyrannical corporation, I would despise that kind of coercion.
	But isn't there some value in a relationship to setting expectations?
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	I'm so sorry. I just apologize because the fabric of my brain is tearing in two and it's probably because I've misunderstood something.
	So when your wife said to stop looking at pornography...
	You said that was a positive development.
	But I thought that you guys fought for months or years about this.
	Right. Yeah, because she stayed.
	After I had changed my behavior, she stayed angry for quite a long time about it.
	Yes, because you never changed your mindset before that year passed.
	And then even after I changed my mind, you never changed your mindset before what?
	Before the year passed.
	This is to your wife.
	Can you explain what you mean by that?
	Yes, he changed his behavior almost immediately.
	It took him a couple of months to change the behavior because of the boundary that I set.
	What do you mean to change the behavior?
	He stopped watching pornography and...
	Um, women on social media and he basically did a lot of a lot of things to to accomplish this but the promiscuous mindset was there to stay and why I was so hurt by his behavior because to him This was just harmless entertainment that all men were entitled to.
	Right. I might disagree with that some, unless Stefan has something to add or if you have something more to say.
	No, go ahead. Yeah, so...
	Yeah, so after my wife confronted me about the porn, I said, okay, I'm never ever going to watch porn again, and I haven't since.
	Okay, sorry, sorry. Why?
	Hang on, I'm sorry to interrupt.
	But why did you change your mind about that?
	Did she convince you in terms of the reason and the evidence, or was it just that Oh, well, it sounded like I was going to lose her if I continued with that behavior.
	Okay, so you changed your behavior based on threat, right?
	Or else? Also because I knew that porn was not very good.
	I knew it had a range of really negative kind of effects.
	So she was giving me a bit of a threat, a bit of an ultimatum, but it aligned with What I knew was best.
	What I knew would ultimately be better, healthier.
	So I'm trying to understand if you both agreed with it and figured it was a positive development or thought it was a positive development, why did you fight for so long about it afterwards?
	Well, she had betrayal trauma, and she remained very angry about it and would remind me of it very frequently, even up to after about nine months after I had made the change.
	I had done some mindset transformation meditation stuff that actually worked really well for me to make a transition from the promiscuous guy that I was when I was younger to being a one-woman kind of man.
	Okay, sorry. I've heard this part before.
	So this is just your wife.
	Why did it continue to be a source of friction?
	I'm not saying whether that's good or bad.
	I'm just curious why this continued to be a source of friction for you going forward after he had committed to change.
	What was still bothering you about it?
	Okay. So it wasn't just that.
	For a whole year after I had first found out, that was the previous year, what he was doing, I was begging him to stop in multiple different ways, only to hear how all men fantasized sexually about other women, how he felt like sleeping with others, and how thankful I should be that he was looking at porn and women online instead of cheating in real life.
	And how he wanted me to put on a wig so that he could imagine better having sex with another woman, you know?
	Oh, I think we may have skipped over those couple of details of the story.
	Go ahead, babe.
	Well, I was very, very hurt.
	And he couldn't understand why I was so hurt.
	He basically changed the behavior...
	But he couldn't understand, and to him it was just mindless entertainment.
	Although I then made an effort to come to understand.
	It did take me some time.
	No, no, sorry, let's just back up for a second here.
	Okay, so for a year your wife had been asking you to stop looking at this stuff, but you had said no
	I'm going to I'm a man. I want to and here wear this wig so I can pretend you're another woman
	I I Definitely said a lot of things that were wrong to her that
	I feel really terrible about and that I have apologized To her for some really stupid things that I said
	However, there was one event where she confronted me directly with the porn and When I was directly confronted with it, I quit totally.
	Hang on. You didn't mention the whole time that for a year, right, because you said she found you with this stuff and then you quit and so on, but you didn't mention that for a whole year you've been justifying it and basically calling her crazy for having any issue with it and then saying that you want to fantasize about other women and she should participate in that by wearing a wick, right? I mean, you didn't mention that in the email.
	You didn't mention that in the entire conversation.
	Sure.
	Like that's an important detail which you haven't mentioned until we're like an hour
	into the chat.
	You didn't even mention it, your wife did.
	But babe, I seem to recall that it was shortly after you confronted me on the couch there
	I seem to recall that it was that very dark.
	The night or the very next day, we got porn blockers on the computer.
	Okay, no, no, that's not what I'm talking about.
	Hang on, hang on, hang on.
	Sorry, guys, guys, guys. We're getting into details here which are irrelevant to the principle.
	Okay, so the way it was told to me, or what I understood, and I'm a pretty good listener.
	I've been doing this for a long time.
	My wife caught me with porn, and she had betrayal trauma, but I quit.
	But then it turns out that for a year, you were justifying it, continuing to watch it, and then saying that you fantasized about having sex with other women when you're with her, and then saying she should wear a wig.
	So here's the thing.
	If we don't have frankness going forward, I have no idea what the point of this conversation is.
	If I have to wait and whack around in the bushes for an hour...
	Before your wife tells me what the actual issue is, I don't know what we're doing in terms of having conversation.
	Because then you're just withholding information that makes you look better and also makes your wife look a little crazy, right?
	Because you're saying, oh, when she had this betrayal trauma because I looked at porn, it's like, well, the looking at porn wasn't great, but the real betrayal trauma was you telling her to wear a wig so you could pretend she was someone else.
	So I don't know what we're doing if we're just not going to be up front about the issues.
	There's no point going to the doctor if your elbow hurts and saying, I think the problem is my wife's knee.
	We can't cure anything, right?
	We are both very committed to frankness here.
	No, you're not. No, you're not.
	Because you didn't tell me the facts about what happened with the pornography until your wife brought it up.
	Well, it was included in the email I sent you.
	No, I don't think it was.
	You can have a look at the email, but is that the one you read at the beginning?
	Yeah, I disclosed that because I realized the reverberations of my behavior are kind of part of this whole problem.
	Yeah, I'm sorry.
	I just... I don't remember the email you saying that you had asked your wife to wear a wig so you could pretend she was another woman when you had sex.
	He doesn't remember. He doesn't remember any of those things that he would tell me.
	Like, he remembers very vaguely.
	Yeah, I would remember that from the email.
	I mean, I remember being kind of jaw-dropped when you brought it up, the wife here, just now, so...
	Okay, well, listen, we'll struggle on.
	I just sort of want to point out that it's sort of wasted quite a bit of time, but that's all right.
	So, okay, so this is to the wife here.
	What was it that drew you to your husband to the point, you know, you date for 18 months, you get married, you've been married for five years now.
	What was it that drew you to him to the point where you want to spend a life together?
	What was so attractive? I'm not being skeptical about that, like, oh, what on earth?
	I'm just genuinely curious what was attractive about him, that he was the one.
	Well, he was funny, he was very smart, he was very hardworking, intelligent.
	He could hold a conversation with a woman like so many men can't.
	This is my opinion and my experience.
	And he knew how to treat a woman.
	And what do you mean by that?
	What I mean by that?
	Okay. And I'm not disagreeing with you again.
	I just want to know what you mean by how to treat a woman.
	Well, he was nice to me.
	Not in the very beginning, because he was very flaky.
	But after I asked him to stop being flaky, he stopped being flaky.
	Sorry, what does flaky mean here?
	Flaky means to tell me that he's going to give me a call in 45 minutes and to not give me a call until four days later.
	Oh, so like unreliable, right?
	Yes. Okay. So he stopped being flaky and we just clicked together.
	We had a lot of...
	a lot to talk about.
	And as far as your...
	Sorry, go ahead. Sure.
	Yeah, we...
	Well, we didn't have much in common, frankly.
	No, actually, we didn't have much in common.
	But you were really in love with me.
	I was. I still am.
	Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're still in love with each other.
	And he is in love with me, too.
	I think, or I'm hoping.
	Yeah, yeah, babe. Actually, all of my friends were very, very weirded out that I chose him.
	Why is that? Because they...
	They didn't think he was the right man for me.
	First of all, I told them about that so-called prenup agreement and they all laughed at me and felt sorry for me because of what he said on that piece of paper.
	And he also wanted to verify it with a notary, but here it's not legal.
	It didn't help that the notary was an overweight woman in her 50s.
	She just took a look at the paper and said she was not signing this and that it wouldn't stand in any court.
	Right. Okay, but I think your husband mentioned that he dated a fair amount before you guys got together.
	And what was your sort of dating history, each of you beforehand?
	Actually, I don't have a ton of dating history.
	I have had some relationships in the past.
	But his dating history is definitely richer than mine, in all aspects.
	Body count? Yes.
	No, I mean, what is the body count for the two of you?
	And you don't have to give me exact numbers, just roughly.
	Well, mine is super low and his is high.
	And what does that mean? Really, John?
	It's an anonymous call.
	It's an anonymous call. No, no.
	Listen, you just have to say, I don't know, single digits, high teens.
	I mean, I don't care about the actual number.
	I'm just curious about the ratio.
	Oh, the ratio.
	The ratio? You could just give me the ratio if you want.
	20 to 1, isn't it?
	Yeah, yeah, yeah. 20 to 1.
	Right. Okay, so you married a man who was, we could say, perhaps even almost addicted to sexual variety, right?
	Yes, we can say that.
	But then you're incredibly upset that he has a preference for sexual variety.
	Well, I thought that when you get married...
	You don't have a history.
	Right, you're just a completely different person.
	You're born again. Come on.
	Come on. When you promise to be faithful to someone...
	No, no. Okay, listen.
	Promises, promises. Let's look at the reality.
	This man had dozens and dozens of sexual partners, right?
	And you knew that before you married him, right?
	No, I didn't.
	Oh, but then you chose not to ask.
	I wasn't sure he was going to tell me the truth.
	Well, then you married a man...
	Despite the fact you were concerned, he was not honest and trustworthy.
	I can never be sure if someone is going to tell me something I cannot verify.
	Well, no. That's what trust is.
	That's the whole point of trust. The whole point of trust is you don't have to verify.
	You know, if my mom says she's going to the grocery store, where's she going?
	To the grocery store. I know that because we've been married over 20 years and she tells me the truth, right?
	Right. Yes, yes, I agree with you.
	Okay, so when did you find out over the course of your relationship that your husband had had these dozens and dozens of sexual partners?
	There were not dozens, but let's say...
	Okay, if you had two, he had 40.
	Because you said 20 to 1, right?
	If you had 3, he has 60.
	If you have 1, he has 20.
	Not exactly. I'm not that bad at math, my friends.
	I'm going to figure it out.
	Give Stefan just a minute.
	He'll figure this out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
	Okay, I believe you.
	Okay, so it's dozens.
	So at what point did you...
	Well, it doesn't matter the exact number.
	At what point did you find out that the man you were dating or the man you married had a 20 to 1 partner ratio to you?
	It was when you found my Sebastian's list.
	Yeah, your list.
	I saw everything.
	Like, he had listed every woman as a piece of meat.
	Okay, you're still not answering me when that happened in the relationship.
	Maybe a year into the relationship.
	Actually, into the marriage.
	Wait, those are two different things.
	What are we, a year into the relationship or a year into the marriage?
	A year into the marriage, sorry.
	Okay, so two and a half years after you met him, you found out that he'd been, I don't want to say exactly a man-whore, but it's not exactly the opposite of that either, right?
	So two and a half years into the relationship.
	Now, had you asked him about his dating history before you found this list?
	No, because he wouldn't stop talking about it.
	I didn't have to ask him.
	What? You said you didn't know.
	Hang on, hang on, honey.
	You said you didn't know until you found a list.
	And then I say, well, did you ask him?
	No, he kept talking about it.
	So then you knew before you found the list.
	But I didn't know the exact number.
	No, no, no. Listen. Okay, guys.
	Are we going to tell the truth here or not?
	Because it's getting kind of annoying at this point.
	I don't know what we're talking about here.
	I asked you a question. When did you find out he had a high dating ratio?
	You said, well, not until I found the list.
	And I said, well, blah, blah, blah.
	And then you say, oh, I said, well, didn't you ask about it before?
	No, he kept telling me from the very beginning about all of his sexual partners.
	Okay. So when we started dating...
	He gave me an idea that his body count was high, but he didn't disclose the number.
	Did you ask him for the number?
	No. I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't have.
	I'm just curious because it matters to some degree.
	Doesn't it matter in terms of pair bonding?
	It matters in terms of potentially sexually transmitted diseases.
	It matters in terms of maybe some crazy woman comes out of his past with an accusation.
	It matters, doesn't it?
	I agree. I agree it matters.
	Maybe it didn't matter to me that much back then.
	Maybe because I just didn't have the experience, the needful experience.
	I don't know what that means.
	So it didn't matter to you how many partners your boyfriend had been with?
	Well, not exactly because I had no idea I was going to marry him one day.
	Oh, no, no, no. Come on.
	Come on. Stop playing helpless.
	You're pushing 40, okay?
	Stop being a victim.
	Stop playing helpless. I didn't know I was going to marry him.
	Come on. You chose to marry him knowing he had a very high body count.
	What I'm trying to do is to try and get you guys to stop blabing each other for what you actually chose with full knowledge.
	You knew he had a very high body count, right?
	Yes. And you chose to marry him.
	Now, you can wave around this magic wand to say, ah, but the marriage vow means that all of his sexual history is completely erased from his mind.
	But that's delusional, right?
	It's not supposed to be erased.
	Of course, nobody can erase their past.
	Exactly. So you voluntarily chose a man with a very high appetite for sexual variety, right?
	Yeah. Okay.
	You chose that. Maybe it's perfectly the right choice, right?
	But that's who you chose.
	Yes. And then you got very hurt and angry and upset that he had...
	Listen, I'm not agreeing with the porn thing or anything like that.
	Certainly not agreeing with the put a wig on and pretend you're, I don't know, Ali Sheedy or something like that.
	But what I am saying is that if you marry a guy with a very high appetite for sexual variety, getting angry at him when that appetite manifests in your marriage is a bit precious.
	It's a bit...
	Come on. Well, that means that I should not have married him just because he had a past.
	Is that what I'm saying?
	Or are you going to listen to what I'm saying?
	Or are you just going to make up straw men and then we don't actually have a conversation?
	What did I say? Stefan, English is her second language.
	No, no. Manipulation is international in language.
	Manipulation knows no language.
	Listen, this is to your wife.
	I love you to death. I'm glad to be having this conversation.
	I really am. I respect you both.
	But I didn't say you shouldn't have married him, did I? No, no, you didn't.
	What I'm saying is that if you marry a man with a very high appetite for sexual variety, which means low pair bonding, and then you claim that, by gosh, somehow this high appetite for sexual variety and less pair bonding is manifesting in our marriage, it's like, well, of course it is.
	Because you chose that guy.
	Again, I'm not defending what he did.
	I'm just saying that being shocked and appalled, it's like a woman says, hey, I have a lot of tattoos, right?
	But you never see her naked, right?
	I have a lot of tattoos.
	And then on her wedding night, you're like, oh my God, she's got a lot of tattoos.
	It's like, no, she told you that.
	And there's effects to that, right?
	So the fact that he had dozens or however many it is, Maybe it's a 4 and 80.
	Maybe it's... I don't know, right?
	Maybe it's 5 and 100 for all I know, right?
	But the fact that he has this high variety demand means that he's not particularly great at pair bonding.
	Right? I mean, otherwise he would have probably tried to find a higher quality woman as he has with you and stick with it earlier in life, right?
	I don't know.
	Yes, you do. Yes, you do.
	No, you absolutely do. You absolutely know.
	Come on. A guy who dates around a lot, is he really good at pair bonding?
	Well, my dad used to date around a lot before he married my mom.
	And he still chose her, and they were together for over 50 years.
	And? Nothing.
	But didn't they also yell at each other?
	Yes, they did.
	So, is that what you want?
	No, no. Okay, so you chose a man like your dad, to some degree, right?
	You chose a man like your dad.
	Your parents yelled at each other.
	You chose a man like your dad, and what are you doing now with your husband?
	You're yelling at each other, right?
	Yeah, yeah, right.
	So, here's the thing, guys.
	When you choose someone, you don't pick and choose someone.
	The human personality is not like a buffet where you get to choose and reject and I like this part of you, I hate this part of you, this part is good, this part is bad, you're hardworking but you betray me and you're moral but you're immoral and you're good but you're bad and you're right and you're wrong.
	That's a crazy game that will drive you both completely insane.
	When you choose someone, you choose all of them.
	All of them. Hang on.
	You don't get to reject any part of them and call it love.
	You choose a guy with a high appetite for variety, and the way it manifested is not good.
	I get all of that. But you called him bad and punished him.
	And now your husband, and this is probably part of the whole cycle, I'm sorry, there's a lot of background noise here.
	I'm not sure if you can hear me.
	Yep, we can hear you.
	Okay. And now your husband is saying, ah, but your failure to exercise and be attractive is bad, it's irresponsible, it means you don't love me and so on.
	And so you are judging each other's behavior as bad, as wrong, as unloving, as irresponsible, as betrayal, as this and that and the other, right?
	In other words, you chose someone And now you are rejecting significant parts of that person's personality.
	But that doesn't make any sense because the personality is a whole.
	It's one thing. Now, you can work with it, of course.
	This is to the husband.
	You managed to wrestle back and control your temper, and that's obviously a very good thing, I think.
	Although I think it's just come out in other ways, like this nagging stuff.
	But what would it mean to look at each other and say, there's nothing wrong with you.
	Everything's right with you. I mean, if I spent...
	I mean, you guys got married five years ago, so you were 33, right?
	So you had 12, 13, 14 years as adults to date around, to test around, and then in your early 30s, you weren't married off at 17 by your uncles and aunts, right?
	You got a lot of dating experience.
	You got to figure out what your values were, what you liked, what you didn't like.
	So by the time you got married, you'd had 15 years...
	Test driving a car, right?
	So you go, oh, I want to get a car.
	I'm going to spend 15 years test driving some cars.
	I'm going to do tons of research, and I'm going to whittle it down, and then I get to test drive the car I think I might want to keep.
	I get to test drive that car for a year and a half.
	So you can choose no car.
	You can choose any kind of car.
	You try on different cars, try out different cars, test drive them for 15 years, and then you test drive each other as the cars for a year and a half, and then you say, this is the car for me.
	And then what happens? Now, if I did that, if I rented a whole bunch of different cars, did a lot of research, I really want to get a car for the rest of my life.
	I want to get a good car, a permanent car.
	I test drive a whole bunch of different cars, and then I test drive a car for 18 months.
	I'm like, man, this is the car for me, right?
	Right? And then, very shortly after I commit to that car, what do I say to everyone?
	Man, this car is really annoying.
	Man, this car really annoys me.
	Oh, this car drives me crazy.
	This car makes me angry.
	This car makes me upset. I get so angry, I punch the car in the steering wheel and hurt my hand.
	I get so angry, I yell at the car.
	I get so angry, I hit the car, battle faulty style, with a shrub.
	I hate this car.
	I hate part of this car. I love this car, but I hate...
	You understand, that would be kind of crazy, right?
	You guys got to date around.
	You got to test drive each other for a year and a half.
	And then you decided to commit for the rest of your lives.
	So what on earth are you doing picking at each other?
	Nobody forced you to get married.
	Nobody's forcing you to stay married.
	What if you just looked at each other and said, you're perfect?
	Oh, but I've got all these criticisms.
	It's like, no, you had all these criticisms.
	But when you get married...
	You drop the criticisms.
	I don't know what it is that people think they can just keep criticizing and nagging at their partner for the rest of their lives.
	That's insane. I'm not saying you're insane.
	I'm saying that perspective is insane.
	When you get married, you say to that person, you're perfect for me.
	I could choose no one.
	I could choose anyone. I'm choosing you.
	You're perfect for me.
	And then, after people get married, they think, oh, okay, well now I can criticize the living shit out of my partner for the next 50 fucking years.
	That makes no sense at all.
	You chose each other.
	Is my wife perfect?
	No. Am I perfect?
	No. Who cares? We're perfect for each other.
	I don't criticize my wife.
	I don't. And she doesn't criticize me.
	Why? Because that would be a betrayal of her vows.
	Did you guys make vows at your wedding?
	Not at our wedding, but we wrote out vows for each other.
	Yes, and they didn't contain anything about weight.
	Okay, so I'm trying to give you a picture here, and you're picking at the little things.
	Okay, did your vows include love, respect, honor, whatever, right?
	Oh, geez. Do we have our vows in our Google Drive?
	Well, I hope that you would remember them because it's the foundation of your marriage, isn't it?
	Did it have something?
	Okay, did it say, did it say, I'm going to live with you, but I reserve the right to punish the hell out of you if you do something I don't like?
	I'm going to criticize and nag and this and that and the other.
	No. I'm pretty sure it didn't, but it probably said something about having a growth paradigm together.
	A growth paradigm is fine.
	A growth paradigm is fine.
	Is it compatible with love?
	If I say, I love you, is it also compatible for me to say, I hate significant aspects of you.
	I really dislike, I have massive problems with significant aspects of you.
	Well, in the example of the porn thing, I mean, I'm kind of thankful to my wife that she came and said, look, this thing about you is unacceptable.
	You need to change.
	I'm kind of thankful that she was maybe— Okay, you've got to stop with this bullshit, my friend.
	You've got to stop with this bullshit.
	That's not how it went down.
	We know that. We just talked about that 20 minutes ago, okay?
	Okay. Your wife didn't find that you had a problem, you sat down with you, and you're like, oh, you're right, honey, you're so right, I thank you so much.
	That's not how it went down, we just talked about that.
	Okay, so you've got to stop acting mechanically.
	Okay, this is a question.
	Is it compatible with love, saying, I love you, to dislike significant aspects of the person you claim to love?
	No. It's not.
	It's not. It's not.
	Now, I don't know if you guys, have you ever seen a relationship where the two people don't criticize each other?
	I don't think so.
	That's the unicorn, Stefan.
	Well, I know them.
	I know those relationships.
	In fact, the reason why you guys don't know those relationships is the relationships where people don't criticize each other, where they want to spend time with you guys.
	Actually, we have some friends like that.
	Well, I'll tell you this.
	For the most part, healthy, happy couples genuinely in love with each other don't want to spend time around couples that bicker and fight with each other.
	It's a general principle of life.
	And maybe there's an exception here.
	I don't know. But, okay.
	So, let me ask you this.
	Is it possible to criticize your partner without also, or more so, criticizing yourself?
	If your partner is a reflection of your choice, is it not logical?
	Because we're all about the logic here, right?
	Is it not logical that If I say, I dislike my choices, I dislike my choice, let's say I paint my wall some color, I think it's going to be cream and it turns out to be like puke yellow or something, right? And I say, I hate my wall color, and am I not saying I hate my choice?
	Because the only reason the wall is the color it is, is because I chose that, right?
	Yes. Okay.
	So can you say, I feel betrayed by my partner, without first and foremost saying, I feel betrayed by myself?
	Because your partner is only in your life because you chose him.
	That makes sense.
	So is it possible to criticize your partner without first criticizing yourself?
	Well, that's kind of the source of our conflict, is that we're not...
	Looking more at ourselves first, perhaps.
	Well, you can't attack your partner without attacking yourself.
	This is why it never gets resolved and just gets worse.
	If I say, I hate this person X who's in my life by my choice, I am actually saying, I hate my choice.
	Now, what we do is we choose someone And then we set ourselves up like some weird judge over them and give them marks for good or bad behavior, right or wrong, pleasing or displeasing.
	You're doing loving things.
	You're not losing weight.
	You're looking at these images.
	It's bad. You're betraying me.
	And we set ourselves up like these weird little judges.
	And we think, in our craziness, we think that we're judging the other person.
	Well, you're disappointing me.
	You're not doing the right thing.
	You're not acting in a loving manner.
	You're not listening. You're not doing this.
	I need to throw phones against you until you listen to me.
	And it's like, what are you talking about?
	She's only in your life because you chose her.
	You can't criticize her at all.
	You can, if you want, criticize your own choice.
	But you can't criticize her.
	That's like me getting mad.
	At the car, I got to choose for 15 years.
	I got it for 15 years, then a year and a half, and then saying, I hate this car.
	I'm not criticizing the car.
	I'm criticizing myself.
	And you guys are looking at each other thinking, I've got to fix that person.
	Oh, this person's not doing this.
	This person's not doing that. No.
	You guys became, listen...
	I don't know if you had these in your vows, but let's look at the phrase.
	I've used it before. A husband and wife are one.
	One flesh, right?
	You've heard that before? Yeah.
	Okay, so what does that mean? What does that mean?
	That means that you can't hurt each other without hurting yourselves.
	You guys think that you can hurt each other, criticize each other, put each other down, threaten each other, or else each other?
	You think you can do that without hurting yourselves?
	I mean, if my biceps don't grow in the way that I want them to, I'm like, hey man, I'm drinking all this protein and I'm working out, does it make sense for me to punch my biceps as hard as I can to punish them for not growing in the way that I want them to?
	That would be the actions of a crazy...
	Imagine seeing some guy at the gym, punching his own arms.
	Hard, black and blue.
	Blood vessels burst under the skin.
	He's just punching his own arms.
	And you say, well, what's the problem?
	It's like, my arms, my biceps aren't growing.
	What would you say? You're sabotaging yourself.
	Like, you're crazy, right?
	Like, you need some serious mental health help.
	Obviously, this is a more vivid example.
	I'm not putting you guys in this category as a whole.
	But how successful has it been for you guys to spend six years tearing at each other?
	Do you think we've spent six years tearing at each other?
	I think it's maybe been two or three.
	I'm going back to some of the early aggression that you talked about even before you got married, if I remember this correctly.
	When was the first coffee cup broken?
	2019. Okay, so sorry, it's four years ago.
	So, yeah, early on into the marriage.
	And there were issues with aggression, if I remember rightly, before you got married as well.
	I'm not sure, was there?
	Once, just once, and then we profusely apologized to each other.
	Right. Right.
	But without commitment to not having it happen again, right?
	Because it happened again and again and again, right?
	Yes, there was no commitment.
	Okay. So let's say, and I appreciate the correction, I said six years and it's probably closer to four, right?
	And that's fine. So you've had this project called Make Each Other Better and Be Happier for four years, right?
	Where you're using a lot of aggression to try and fix the other person in order to be happier, right?
	Right. And how's that going?
	Well, I guess I've...
	I guess in this decade I've probably been the one that's...
	Yeah, I was the one...
	Probably putting more pressure on her in regards to like, hey, babe, you should come to the gym with me.
	You should do yoga. You should do meditation.
	You should do such and such mental health thing that'll make you less anxious.
	It was probably me putting a bit more, me putting more pressure on her.
	Recently, at least.
	I'm sorry. What did I ask?
	Because I'm not sure what you're responding to.
	Do you remember what I asked?
	Yeah, you said us tearing at each other and trying to change each other.
	Okay. My question was, you spent four years trying to aggressively fix each other.
	How is that going? Um...
	I mean, I think it's good that I don't watch porn and that I have a very monogamous mindset at this point.
	That's a positive.
	He's very proud of this.
	Yeah, yeah. Okay.
	I assume if things are going, you're not calling me asking for help, right?
	If things are going well. No.
	Because, look, if things are going well and you guys are happy and proud and things are moving forward, then, you know, that's great.
	I mean, that's wonderful.
	I think that's wonderful. But, you know, I have – I don't even know how many people are queued up for these calls.
	And if you guys are doing fine, good.
	No, we're not doing fine because I have been crying for months now.
	Well, you lost the baby.
	This is what I don't understand.
	I'm sorry to interrupt, and this is going straight to you as the wife, right?
	I mean, you had just about the biggest heartbreak a woman can have.
	And you as a couple, of course, it's both of your baby, right?
	Yes. And so when I started reading the email from your husband, and it was like, oh my, she's not exercising this, that, and the other.
	Do you know what my thought was? I don't particularly care about this issue.
	But then I read further, and it's like, oh yeah, and by the way, my wife lost a baby earlier this summer, but what I'm writing to you about is not how to deal with the grief of the death of a child, but how do I get my wife to do more sit-ups.
	That's so disconnected for me, I don't even know what to say.
	Like the second half of the email compared to the first half of the email, well, it'd be great if she did more Pilates.
	Oh yeah, by the way, we did have the death of a child.
	A couple months ago. And can I add something?
	Last year we lost twins.
	Yes, that's right.
	That's right. I remember that on the live stream.
	Oh, like guys, I'm just, it's so awful.
	I mean, it's terrible.
	And where were the twins at in the nine month period when you lost them?
	Ten weeks long because nobody paid attention to them.
	It was complete doctor's negligence.
	What do you mean? I mean that nobody just cared about them.
	Nobody cared to tell me how to keep them.
	Nobody told me, well, they could develop a T-syndrome.
	They just said, well, one of them will die and the other one will stay alive.
	No, they were identical, which meant that if one died, the other one would die as well.
	But nobody told me that.
	Out of probably seven, eight, maybe ten doctors, until it happened.
	Wait, you saw ten doctors in ten weeks?
	No. I'm sorry, I'm not being skeptical, I just don't follow the story.
	Yes, well, I had my missed miscarriage 10 weeks along.
	Basically, this is when they did the DNC, 10 weeks along.
	But before that, I saw many doctors and they all thought that one of the twins was going to live and the other one was going to die.
	But it didn't happen. Both died at the same time.
	Why did they think one might die?
	Because they thought that was the vanishing twin syndrome.
	Because both of them had strong heartbeats, but one of them was smaller than the other.
	Significantly smaller.
	Okay.
	And a little bit after I lost the twins, my husband came up with this cultivating beauty
	plan for the first time.
	And I cried like crazy when we talked about it.
	And I'm sorry, just before we get to that, how long have you guys been trying to have babies?
	Two years. No, it hasn't been about...
	Yeah, sure, two years. Two years.
	Yeah. Okay, so you started, I guess, late summer 2021.
	You lost the twins last year and then you lost, was this the stillbirth?
	So this is a baby that came to term and died on the way out?
	He died six months along.
	His heartbeat just stopped.
	And I had to give birth to him.
	Oh, I'm so sorry.
	I mean, there are no words that can encompass my grief and sympathy for this situation.
	And honestly, I don't think it's something that men can understand.
	I mean, we can sympathize, we can listen, but to give birth to a dead baby, I can't imagine.
	And my heart goes out to you, and I'm so sorry about that entire experience.
	That's just terrible. And of course, it means that pregnancies going forward are nerve-wracking too, right?
	I'm hoping that one day we'll have a living, healthy baby.
	Well, you're 38, though, and your husband is saying unless you do more exercise, he's not going to have a baby with you.
	Did I remember that correctly? This is what my husband says.
	Right. That unless I participate in the growth marriage, as he calls it, he doesn't want to have a baby with me.
	Right. Now, that's a new thing.
	Is that right? That's a boundary that he set like two weeks ago, John?
	Yeah, can I clarify that?
	I'm sorry. I thought that there was something that started after the death of the twins last year.
	Oh, yes. After the death of the twins, he came up with a cultivating beauty plan.
	What does that mean? Is the cultivating beauty plan what we talked about or what we wrote in the initial email?
	Yes. Okay, so sorry.
	Sorry, go ahead. It's the exercise, it's the yoga, it's dressing up, it's having my nails done, it's doing my hair.
	And do you remember the reason why I proposed that to you at that time?
	It was not a purely selfish reason that I proposed that to you at that time.
	Sorry, at that time, how close to the miscarriage was this?
	Almost right afterwards.
	I wanted us to reinvest in loving each other and I wanted us to enjoy life and enjoy romance together.
	I'm sorry, sorry. You wanted your wife to enjoy life and romance right after she lost twins.
	Yeah, maybe that was misguided, but...
	No, hang on, hang on, hang on. Slow your roll here, brother.
	Slow your roll. Sure.
	Sorry, this is to your wife. This was your first pregnancy?
	Yes. First pregnancy, twins, incredible stress.
	You're told one is going to die.
	They both die. And your husband is like, the solution to this is Pilates and a date night.
	Right. I don't mean to mischaracterize things overly, but...
	Is it, like, what the fuck is wrong with processing some grief here?
	I was grieving, but he wanted me to try and be beautiful for him because he was losing sleep over this.
	Losing sleep over what?
	Over me not making efforts to be beautiful for him.
	But you just lost twins.
	Yes. You had a DNC, right?
	Yes. That sucked out dead twins from your innards.
	Yes. I mean, that's not a, I feel, radiant, sexy and beautiful moment for any human being who's female, right?
	Right. So, what is going on?
	Sorry, just to pivot to the husband here.
	I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound too jaw-dropped, but I'm trying to sort of understand how...
	You go from my twins just died in my wife's womb and she had to get them sucked out to let's work out and get your nails done.
	I wanted us to both reinvest in the romance, in the relationship.
	No, no, there's no romance right after the twins die.
	Like, help me understand what is going on here.
	There's no romance there. I mean, I don't know how long the grieving is, and it's not like you never have romance again, but there's no romance right after...
	I mean, how were you processing the death of these twins?
	It was... It was a huge disappointment for me, but I saw, for me, I wanted to have a baby with her.
	I wanted to have a successful pregnancy in the future, and at the time, in my head, the best way of moving towards a healthy pregnancy was to Stack on as many different healthy habits as possible for both of us.
	No, no, no. Come on, dude.
	Come on.
	You read books on anger management, right?
	Yeah. Okay, and they worked?
	Yeah, sure. I learned some things from them.
	Yeah, go ahead. Okay.
	Have you ever heard or read anything to do with grieving?
	That says romance and personal appearance is how you solve a huge grieving issue, a huge grief.
	I have read quite a bit about how exercise helps people get through the tragedies in life.
	Oh, okay. So have you heard that the best way to deal with the grief of a miscarriage is to work out?
	No, no.
	Did you consult anyone, read any books about the grieving process, how to help?
	Because again, it happened to both of you, but it happened more to her.
	Yeah, I should probably read some books like that.
	So when your husband came to you with the personal beautification program, or whatever it was called, this is to the wife, what was your response?
	How did you react? Well...
	You agreed to it, didn't you?
	No, no, let her answer, let her answer.
	I cried.
	So he felt disrespected and we had just lost our twins and I was asking myself why my husband had to be so shallow and sensitive and cruel.
	I told him multiple times that if he wanted a woman who would do all these things with enthusiasm consistently, he should have found her and married her.
	I was not that woman.
	And how I would hear was, I want someone else.
	It's not you I want.
	You aren't beautiful enough for me.
	And so on and so forth.
	And... And did you guys...
	What did you do with... With the grief, I mean, how did you process or work through the grief?
	I kept processing it on my own.
	To him, it was just a lost pregnancy, and to me, I mean, they were my babies.
	They still are my babies.
	Right, okay. I mean, this is to the husband.
	I mean, did you weep?
	Did you wail? Did you gnash your teeth?
	I mean, what happened to you over the process of this issue?
	Okay, both losses, I was very upset with and disappointed.
	The loss that happened this year was the worst day of my life by far, the worst week of my life by far.
	And yeah, I cried for like the first time in 20 years.
	And I was...
	Yeah, I was pretty upset about it, but both times I dove back into workaholism.
	That's more or less how I've dealt with both.
	Hang on, sorry. Your wife is suffering even more than you are, but you spend more time at work than with her?
	I spend, well, I work from home, so I'm with her for about 160 hours a week.
	Well, no, not if you're working, you're not.
	We actually spend quite a bit of time throughout the day interacting.
	Okay, so sorry, I thought that workaholism is when you worked too much to the point where it becomes an issue.
	Otherwise, not really an addiction, right?
	Yeah, I guess it's kind of a loose definition on workaholism.
	Okay, let me switch to your wife then.
	Sorry, let me switch to your wife.
	So, was it the case that he worked to the exclusion of comforting you, or is that something that didn't happen?
	We agreed differently.
	And he decided to just...
	Dive into work. He told me that was how he grieved.
	Well, no, technically that would be how you would avoid grieving.
	And if one person is grieving and the other person is avoiding grieving, the other person is also avoiding the person who's grieving.
	Does that make sense? Like if my wife wants to go to a loud concert and I don't want to go to a loud concert and she goes to the loud concert, I'm not going with her, right?
	Yes. So if you're grieving and your husband is avoiding grieving, he's also avoiding you.
	I really have not avoided you.
	There have been hundreds and hundreds of times that you were upset and crying and I put down my work and I came over and gave you a big hug and talked with you for 30 minutes and comforted with you.
	So of all my sins, I don't think ignoring you is one of them.
	Can you not hear the anger in your wife's voice about what happened post baby loss?
	I can hear it. I'm on the other side of the world, maybe.
	I can hear the anger and the bitterness that she has, and I want to know what the source of that is.
	Whether it's right or wrong, fair or not, it doesn't matter.
	We listen to feelings.
	So here's the thing. Sorry, this is to the wife.
	So when you express your feelings, I don't know if you notice how much you condemn your husband.
	Your anger with regards to your feelings, a lot of it comes out in pretty significant and Harsh, harsh criticism of your husband.
	Now, it's pretty tough to listen to someone who's also calling you a very bad person.
	Right? So, I guess I'm curious about what the hurt and the anger is, and if you could talk about it without calling your husband bad.
	cold or heartless or I can't remember the phrases exactly that you used but where is the hurt for you that doesn't involve condemning your husband?
	I have never called him a bad person ever.
	No, in this conversation you couldn't believe he was so cold or cruel or heartless or there were things that you said earlier regarding Yes.
	So that's bad, right?
	Yes. That's definitely calling him a bad person.
	I mean, I'm sorry to be precise, but that is the case, right?
	Well... No. Cold, cruel, heartless, these are not neutral terms.
	I mean, let's be realistic about that.
	And listen, I'm not disagreeing with you about being hurt and angry.
	I'm not at all. But I'm just saying that if you can express that without calling your husband a bad person, it probably would be easier for him to listen.
	Okay, okay.
	So I just thought that it really was not the time for me to be doing all these things because all I could think back then was the loss of my babies.
	Right.
	And I was trying very hard to explain that to him.
	And I believe that he just thought at the time this was a way to help me somehow, even
	though this was really not the way.
	And I had told him multiple times that this will not work.
	And was it a surprise to you that he took this approach after the loss of the twins?
	I was really grateful that he did not bully me right away and I was thinking that he would just leave me alone to grieve in my own way.
	But then he came up with this and I felt very hurt because this was not the right time and this was not the right thing for me to be doing at the time.
	But I felt awful.
	I'm sorry, you felt what?
	I felt awful.
	Yeah. I felt bad.
	Because he was losing sleep over this.
	And just decided to abandon myself and my grief.
	Because he had agreed to be faithful to me by only having eyes for me.
	This is what he said.
	That just like he had Accomplished only having eyes for one woman, I could attend to his needs, which were for me to make efforts to be beautiful for him.
	Right.
	And I was just broken inside.
	And all he cared about was me exercising and doing stuff.
	I hated to be beautiful on the outside because my body has not changed at all since we got married, even before that.
	I'm even skinnier than when we met right now.
	Even after the stillbirth, I never put on any baby weight.
	Ever. And my doctor was worried and she said she was going to hospitalize me if I didn't put on any weight.
	Or at least some weight.
	But I never did.
	And still, Our baby was growing right on point and he was healthy.
	Sorry, this is with the stillbirth earlier this summer.
	Your doctor said you're not eating enough?
	Yes. She was asking me if I was eating at all because I never put on...
	Okay, so hang on, hang on.
	So why were you under eating?
	No, I was eating.
	I was eating as much as I wanted to.
	Okay. Just checking. Just checking.
	All right. Okay.
	So, sorry. Please, go ahead.
	I didn't mean to interrupt. No, no, no.
	It's okay. It's okay.
	So, I was just asking myself, if a woman is a mess on the inside and in pain, how can you expect her to be beautiful on the outside?
	Right. Okay.
	So, let me ask you this. Let's say, and I'm sorry to the husband again to talk about you like you're not here, but let's say that your husband was very unskilled in his response to your grief, right?
	Yes. Okay. Now, this means that he lacks emotional skills, right?
	At the time.
	Well, no. I mean, if he's made it to the age of 36 or 37...
	Thinking that the best way you comfort a woman is to have her do sit-ups and get her nails done.
	I'm not saying this is the only thing.
	I remember he said that he would come and hug you and talk about you when you would be crying and so on, right?
	But if his approach as a whole is the way you solve with the grief of twins miscarriage is with a beautification program, let's say, just for the sake of argument, I'll agree with you 100% that that's not very skilled when it comes to helping people with their emotions.
	So I agree with you that he got to his mid to late 30s with very few skills when it comes to emotions, right?
	Yeah. Is that fair to say?
	Obviously. Right.
	So why are you angry about him?
	Because he's not skilled with emotions.
	Maybe he's an engineer for all I know, right?
	He's not skilled with emotions.
	Maybe you're better at emotions.
	We also know he's not skilled at emotions because he didn't have a way to handle his temper until you gave him the ultimatum, right?
	So he's not skilled with his emotions, right?
	Oh, he's not skilled at emotions and emotional comfort and emotional connection.
	Is it fair to say that that's not one of his big talents?
	I think he's better now, but not back then.
	Okay. Okay. That's fine.
	We can say he's better now.
	But, are you telling me that before the loss of the twins, that you had no idea that he
	was not very skilled with emotions?
	I'm not sure.
	I never knew how he would react in such situations.
	I thought that he would react like me, that he would grieve like me, but...
	No, but he's not... No, hang on.
	No. No, you didn't.
	No, you didn't. This is something you say to make yourself mad and make yourself feel self-righteous and to make yourself feel angry.
	Look, you had vastly different dating experiences, right?
	Yes. Okay.
	You have vastly different experiences with anger, right?
	In that he tends to be more outwardly aggressive, or at least he used to before reading the books on anger management.
	Is that right? Yes.
	You have significantly different relationships to exercise.
	Yes. Totally.
	Totally. So here's just three issues, right?
	And this is just, we could talk about more different experiences as children and so on, right?
	But there's three issues right there where he's massively different from you, right?
	Right. And then you say, well, I thought he'd react just like me.
	That's not even remotely true.
	And you shouldn't try and pull that stuff with me or with yourself because that's just a lie that you make up So you can be angry and upset.
	And listen, I get that you're angry and upset.
	I understand that. And I'm sympathizing with you.
	But the idea that this guy who has vastly different dating experiences, vastly different anger management, which is emotional management, vastly different relationship to exercise and so on, and you're like, well, I thought he'd be just like me.
	It's like he's not like you.
	And you knew that for years before this.
	He's not like you. So then getting mad at him for not being like you when he's not been like you since the day you met him...
	No, it wasn't because of that.
	It was just because he wouldn't let me grieve in my way.
	He's not like you. He doesn't have emotional skills.
	He wanted to help, but he's bad at it.
	In the same way that when I first picked up a tennis racket, I wanted to play well, but I was bad at it.
	So he wanted to help, but he was bad at it.
	And you know he's bad at things.
	He's bad at having relationships because he keeps having them over and over again.
	He's bad at anger management because he kept yelling and throwing things.
	So you know he's bad at these things.
	So what do we do when we're in a marriage and we're better than the other person at something?
	Do we thump our chest and say, well, I'm good and he's bad and I'm sensitive and he's callous and I'm nice and he's cold-hearted?
	We try to teach him how we want to...
	No. You already chose him.
	Stop trying to change him.
	You already chose him.
	Right. You don't get to choose a car and then say, I'm going to turn this thing into an airplane.
	Right. You already had the choice.
	You made the choice.
	So stop trying to change him.
	And this is to your husband too.
	Hey, she doesn't like exercise.
	And she doesn't like being bullied because she's a human being and human beings, unless they're total masochists, don't like being bullied.
	She doesn't like exercise, brother.
	And he's not good at emotions.
	Now, are you going to spend the rest of your life getting mad at each other for things that you already chose and expecting each other to change?
	Because it's a weird thing that couples do.
	I want you to change.
	Well, how about you change your expectations based on who I am?
	No! If you can't change your expectations about what the other person is doing, you can't expect the other person to change.
	Because if change is so easy, just change your expectations.
	If you want your wife to start loving exercise, just accept that she doesn't love exercise.
	Oh, well, I can't do that.
	And then stop asking her to change if you're not willing to change.
	And you sitting here getting mad at your husband for being bad at helping you with grief, hey, I'm there.
	But we can't all be good at everything.
	I'm sure he's great at other things.
	But you all are trying to look at each other and saying, you should be like me.
	I like exercise.
	Why don't you? I'm good at handling grief.
	Why aren't you? But you're different.
	And you chose that difference and now you want to what?
	Erase that difference? But you can't.
	All you can do...
	It's like you're trying to reshape a human being by slicing them up.
	You can't rechange them. All you can do is damage them.
	So he's bad at emotions.
	I'll accept that. I'm sure he's great at other things.
	We can't all be good at everything.
	You know, who do you think is better in my household at managing the wireless network, me or my wife?
	You! Right!
	Does that mean my wife is stupid?
	No, no! I've explained it to her!
	I mean, if my wife ever picks up the right remote the first time, I will faint.
	And conversely, if I ever pick out a matching outfit, she will also faint.
	She's better at that and I'm not.
	And I'm better at things and she's not.
	And I don't lord it over her by comparing what I'm good at to what she's bad at.
	Alright. Who's better at cooking though?
	I'm sorry? Who's better at cooking?
	You or your wife?
	I would say that my wife is better at cooking.
	Now, why is she better at cooking?
	Because she cares about it more.
	For me, food is just stupid fuel you have to put in so you can do more philosophy.
	I enjoy food about as much as I enjoy filling my car with gas.
	I get it. Every now and then I like it.
	But she cares about food and I'm thrilled that she does care about food.
	She cares about food.
	She cares for the healthy stuff.
	She cooks with great stuff.
	She makes great meals and I really appreciate that.
	And so she doesn't sit there and say, oh yeah, you do it.
	It's like, but I'm not good at it in part because I don't care about it as much.
	Now, the fact that she cares about it, I appreciate that.
	Which is why...
	And does she care about how the Wi-Fi router is configured?
	She does not. In fact, on the few times that I've explained it to her, I can literally see her eyes glazing over.
	Like she just goes to some other happy place that doesn't involve me talking about SSIDs.
	In the same way that I've given up correcting on my daughter when she says...
	She's out and about and she says, the Wi-Fi is not good here.
	And I'm like, it's not Wi-Fi.
	Wi-Fi is at home.
	It's short range. This is cell phone data.
	I just, I give up. Like, I'm just not going to explain it again.
	Like, my mom can still refer to her CD player as a gramophone.
	I'm not going to, like, back in the day, right?
	So, look, you guys have strengths and weaknesses.
	Of course you do. You're human beings.
	We all have strengths and weaknesses. You know, like, I will say to my wife once in a while, hey, remember so-and-so?
	Why don't we see them anymore?
	And then she'd be like, boom, boom, boom, boom.
	She remembers everything, what happened and why.
	And I'm like, oh, yeah.
	That's right. I don't remember.
	I don't remember. But I remember when she tells me.
	So she keeps social scores.
	I don't particularly. And this is all great.
	So, yes.
	Yes. If you compare your strengths to your partner's weaknesses, you will feel superior.
	And maybe that's good for your vanity or your self-esteem or something like that until you remember that you chose them.
	But what's really toxic in my view is if you think that your other partner is not just less good at you at certain things, But they're bad people because of it.
	Like, can you imagine if I said to my wife, well, if you really cared about me, you'd learn about the Wi-Fi router.
	No, we laugh, but this is serious stuff.
	And my wife is like, I've told you for 20 years which outfits match.
	If you cared about me, you'd listen and do it.
	And I wouldn't have to send you back upstairs three times before we go to the restaurant.
	No, you can reframe it all as if only you cared.
	If I said to my daughter, if you only understood how much I know I care about the difference between cell phone data and Wi-Fi, please just listen.
	If you're not listening because you don't care, you're cold-hearted.
	We can turn all of our strengths and weaknesses into these moral judgments.
	Yes, I don't particularly agree.
	With the beautification program right after the miscarriage of twins.
	I don't particularly agree with it.
	So, in his own way, he's trying to help.
	Is he doing it very well?
	I would say no.
	However, you then translating into it, he's a bad person, he's cold-hearted, he's mean, he's cruel, he's this, he's that.
	Some people are bad at stuff and when they try to help, they don't really help.
	You know, like, I mean, I don't mean to diminish your husband, but, you know, everybody's had it at some point, you know, you become a parent and, you know, your kid knocks over a glass of juice or something like that and then they come and help and then they knock something else over.
	And, you know, you feel like you're just going to spend the rest of your life cleaning things up, right?
	I remember when my daughter was young, she spilled a glass of milk and she's like, oh, let me help.
	And then she just threw an entire rolled up, like the sheets, and just, you know, all over the place there.
	And it's like, yeah, that's a...
	Or, you know, oh, I spilled something on the couch, but don't worry, I rubbed it in.
	You're like, no! My wife diving down the stairs, don't rub it in.
	Right, so... They try to help and they just don't particularly help.
	You can appreciate the effort and you say, oh, he's being really insistent and so on.
	It's like, yeah, okay, that can be kind of annoying.
	But the moment you slip into he's a bad person, you're just taking a hammer to the basis of the marriage.
	Then you chose to get married to And try to have children with a bad person.
	And if you think that makes him look bad, you're wrong.
	Right? And for the husband, it's like, she doesn't like exercise.
	And guess what?
	Exercise is really boring.
	I've been doing it for 25, oh God, more.
	I've been doing it for, oh God, long.
	I started in my mid-teens.
	Yeah, 40 years. 40 years.
	It's boring. It is boring.
	Now, I mean, for me, the benefits are important.
	I'm an older parent. I've got to stay healthy and all of that.
	And, you know, it's good.
	For some people, it's not.
	Now, you have translated to, if she cared about me, she would do this.
	And therefore, if she doesn't do it, then she doesn't love you as much.
	She's not respecting you.
	She's not keeping her vows or maintaining that Piece of paper that you had her sign before the marriage and so on.
	And so you're taking it personally.
	In the same way, as I say, well, if my wife doesn't want to learn the difference between an I-5, an I-7, and an I-9, she just doesn't care about me.
	It's like, no, she cares about me.
	She just doesn't care about processors or Wi-Fi or which remote control to grab.
	In the same way, I don't care what I wear.
	It doesn't mean I don't care about my wife.
	I just don't care what I wear.
	Now, if we say, if you're different from me, you don't love me.
	Whew! What a disaster!
	What a disaster! Difference does not mean disrespect.
	Difference means you're in a relationship.
	If you guys are trying to say, you have to be exactly like me, you have to love exercise, you have to be really great with emotions, you have to do...
	Then you're asking the impossible because you chose that person because they weren't you.
	Look, if you wanted someone just like you, just be single.
	Just be single. But if you choose someone, you're choosing for them to be different from you.
	And that difference is the entire point of the relationship.
	My wife's great at some stuff.
	I'm great at some stuff. Together we're great at a lot of things.
	This is true. Hey, Stefan.
	I'm so sorry. That was me.
	I pulled a cable. See, you'd think at this point I'd be actually good at not pulling cables, but no.
	You'd be wrong about that, too.
	You guys can hear me okay?
	The cables just couldn't handle your intensity.
	I gestured and pulled the cables.
	Wanting people to be like you is...
	If you're the CEO of a company, do you hire another CEO? No.
	No, why? Because you're good at something and the CFO's got to be good at the finances, the CTO's got to be good at the technology, the CMO's got to be good at marketing.
	So you're hiring people who aren't you.
	So all relationships work that way.
	I mean, you understand, when you go for a haircut...
	You want the haircut more than you want the 20 bucks and the barber wants the 20 bucks more than he wants the haircut.
	The fact that you want different things and have different values is exactly why there's a relationship.
	All relationships are founded upon an exchange of value, which means other people are better at stuff and you're better at stuff and you exchange that to the betterment of you both.
	Now, if you go to the hairdresser and you say, I want you...
	To not give me a haircut, there would be no relationship there, right?
	So if you go to the haircutter and you say, I want you to value your time more than my $20, so you won't give me a haircut.
	So the fact, asymmetry of needs, right?
	You understand this from an economic standpoint, right?
	Which is, I want you and I to have different values, that's why there's a relationship.
	Right? Now, I don't mean different values like good and evil, right?
	But the time maybe that you've put into learning how to deal with your emotions, maybe your husband has turned into work and maybe he makes more money or he's really efficient or whatever it is, right?
	And so there's value in that.
	And all the time you spend learning how to cook, you're not spending at the gym.
	And so, whatever. So, you guys have different values.
	Yeah, okay. Of course, that's because you're different people.
	And you chose each other for those values.
	And now, if you want, you can spend the rest of your life damning each other for the differences that you chose and saying, well, I can't believe this guy is not exactly as good at everything as I am.
	Without appreciating how much he does or she does that's better than what you do.
	I mean if you didn't have different capacities you wouldn't even be able to get pregnant, right?
	So that's my sort of speech that I wanted to get across, that there's a lot of, well, the fact that she doesn't value what I value means she doesn't care about me.
	The fact that he doesn't value what I value means he doesn't care about me.
	That's not even close to true.
	We care about each other in different ways.
	And if my wife cooks because she loves me and then says, well, because you don't cook, you don't love me, it's like, no, I do other things that, you know, that how I manifest my love.
	And I get when it's interfering, I get that, right?
	So you're trying to grieve and he's like, let's do sit-ups.
	And I know I'm being sort of facetious about this.
	And that's intrusive.
	I get that. I get that.
	And sometimes you've got to grit your teeth in a relationship and say, this is intrusive and it's doing the opposite of helping, but he's trying to help and he's just not very good at it.
	And to have the humility to say, listen, there are times when I try to help when I'm not very good at things.
	And, you know, if we talk to your husband and if we had all day, which we don't, but if we talk to your husband and say, have there been situations where your wife has tried to help you with something and she has done the opposite of helping or hasn't been helpful, of course, we can all think of that, right?
	So when somebody we care about is trying to help us and it's actually interfering, then we should have the humility, I think, because it definitely goes both ways to say, yeah, I've done that too.
	And it is kind of annoying, but I should have the humility to say that I also am...
	Annoying about these things as well.
	At times. Hey, Stefan.
	So, yeah, you've made a really good point here that we are both gonna sleep on, which is that you chose your partner.
	You chose your partner.
	You chose them with their flaws and their weaknesses and their own history.
	And so it's a self-attack to say that now that I've chosen my partner, I reject something about them.
	This is a really good point.
	No, not reject. Condemn.
	You guys condemn each other as being uncaring.
	And if you cared about me, you'd exercise.
	And if you cared about me, you'd do this.
	So it's more than just...
	Reject. You condemn each other.
	Sorry, go ahead. Sure.
	So this is a good point.
	We're both going to sleep on this and absorb this and probably talk about this in couples therapy sometime soon.
	But maybe you can add some nuance to...
	Let me know if you totally reject the idea of a growth relationship or if there's some nuance and balance in between saying, okay, I accept you, but I accept the person and I'm willing to accept the whole of you, but at the same time, We're not 80-year-old dinosaurs.
	We're relatively young people that the world changes and our life changes.
	And sometimes we need to make changes for each other I think sometimes we actually need to make difficult changes for each other.
	I know for a fact that in the future, whether that is several weeks from now, several months from now, or several years from now, I know that my wife is going to come to me with something.
	Maybe it's because I'm such an emotional dumbass.
	But my wife is going to come to me with something that I need to change.
	Maybe I need to spend less time working and I need to do a better job of paying attention to her family.
	Pay attention to her family, what do you mean?
	I only have a mom, John.
	I only have a mom.
	Right, right. Or that's what I mean.
	That's what I mean. So if I can just finish my point is my wife is gonna come to me
	Maybe it'll be when we have kids My wife will come to me and she'll say and and there'll be
	some pretty Substantial kind of change that I need to make that's
	actually like a change that cuts pretty deep to my Identity, but I'm gonna need to make that change to be a
	good husband. Oh, yeah I know what you're coming from
	You want to reserve the right to nag someone.
	I get it. Because I just gave you guys the biggest change you're probably ever going to have in your life.
	And you're like, oh yeah, but what about other changes?
	Right? The biggest change is to accept each other, to respect the differences, to not nag and so on.
	And you're like, okay, yeah, dealing with that, but I still want to reserve the right to nag my wife.
	I still want to reserve the right to say that you need to improve or that I need to improve and this, that, and the other.
	Right? So I get where you're coming from.
	Can you think of a relationship where the other person doesn't have to change because you want them to?
	Please say that one more time.
	Can you think of a relationship where the other person doesn't have to change because you want them to?
	Now, if the other person wants to change, you can facilitate that.
	You know, like if my wife wants to do X, Y, and Z to change, she's like, yeah, I'm happy with that.
	Maybe I can help with that or whatever, right?
	But it doesn't come from me, and it certainly never, ever, ever, ever would come with an or else.
	No threat. Not even the threat of disapproval.
	Because I respect my wife.
	I respect my choice to marry her.
	I respect her decision-making.
	So to threaten her would be to punch myself.
	So you reject my idea of a growth relationship?
	No, come on. If you guys look...
	I'm sorry about...
	You understand that for each other, it's each other or no kids, right?
	Like, if it doesn't work out with each other, I mean, certainly for your wife, her fertility window will pretty much be gone, right?
	Because they say it takes half the time of a relationship to get over the relationship, and you guys have been together for six and a half years, so that's three years, puts her in her early 40s at the very best scenario, then she's got to find a guy.
	So her fertility window is closing rapidly.
	I think, again, I'm no expert, check with your doctor, but my understanding is that.
	So... It's particularly cruel at this point to say, well, you have to get with my program or I'm not going to give you a baby.
	Right. Because she, dude, you've got time, she doesn't.
	So this is, to me, this is an abuse of accidental biological power.
	Right? Because she doesn't have a choice to wait, really.
	And tell me if I'm wrong about this.
	I mean, this would be my understanding.
	Can I explain my reasoning?
	I'd like to hear from your wife because I'm talking about her.
	Yes, exactly.
	This is what he said. He said that unless I decided to step into the so-called growth marriage and start exercising, he didn't really want to have kids with me.
	Right. So that's a huge threat.
	I mean, I assume, given your, obviously, the perfectly understandable sadness that you had about the twins and the stillborn baby earlier this summer, that you very desperately want to have children.
	And so you understand that, as a husband to say, do what I want you to do, or you will never have children.
	Do you understand what an unbelievable threat that is?
	Yes, I do. Sorry, to your husband, do you understand that as well?
	Yeah. Okay, and do you feel that that is legitimate to say, do what I want you to do, or you're not having children?
	Can I explain my reasoning on that boundary a little bit?
	No, it's not a boundary.
	It's a punishment. Okay.
	But yes, you can explain your reasoning on that punishment if you want.
	Sure. So, having children is, I anticipate it's going to be this incredible challenge, and we're going to have all sorts of unforeseen difficulties, and I'm sure joys and good things, but there's going to be an incredible amount of challenge in being parents together.
	And And my wife is – she's a really great person.
	There's so many good things about her, but she is very fragile.
	She is not particularly resilient.
	And going into – as my partner in – We want to do the peaceful parenting thing.
	We really want to do a good job on parenting.
	And so going into that project, it seems to me that it'd be very important to have So fitness and exercise is not – that is not the most important thing in the world.
	There are plenty of other things.
	Okay. I need you – look, we've been going two hours, 20 minutes, okay?
	I need you to boil this down.
	Just give me your reasons. Why does your wife have to exercise so you won't have children with her?
	Okay. Okay. That's not it.
	That is negotiable.
	You've told me some things. You've given me a lot to think about here.
	Tell me your reasoning, or we can move on, but I'm not going to go round and round the mulberry bush with you here.
	Okay, if you want to tell me your reasoning, then tell me your reasoning.
	Why does she need to exercise so you won't give her children?
	I want her to be a resilient woman as a mother.
	And do you think that threatening your partner makes her stronger or weaker?
	Does that make her more confident or less confident?
	Does that make her more robust or less robust?
	Less, probably. So threatening someone is supposed to strengthen them?
	Saying, I'm going to take from you the greatest thing that you want in life, which is children.
	I'm going to rob that from you unless you bend to my will.
	You think that's strengthening her?
	That's just grinding her down.
	That's bullying her.
	Do you think bullying makes people stronger or weaker?
	More nervous or more secure?
	I want her to be a version of herself that is liberated from the pain of her past.
	And it seems to me that she could...
	Hang on. You feel that threatening her in the present, which is very painful to her and terrifying, do you think that threatening her in the present is liberating her from the pain of the past?
	Uh... How would you do it?
	How would you encourage her to become a more resilient person?
	And to exercise. This is the most important thing.
	What are you talking about? I feel like I've been yelling into the void here.
	I mean, you chose her already!
	She doesn't have to change!
	You chose her already!
	Well, I chose to marry you and I chose to have babies with you, but I really need you to change.
	No, you already chose her.
	You already chose her.
	Asking her to change after you chose her is irrational and cruel.
	How would I make my wife a more resilient person, whatever that means?
	I mean, if she said to you, listen man, I really need you to be shorter, so we're going to have to take off maybe two or three inches of your shin bone.
	No, I'm not kidding.
	Would you submit to that operation?
	No, no, no. Why not?
	She wants you to be shorter.
	She hates looking up your nose all day.
	That's a negative and unnatural change.
	No, there's lots of people who are shorter.
	Oh, you're saying it would be painful and inconvenient.
	It's not how you naturally are?
	Stefan, can I ask my wife a question?
	It's your call. Okay, okay, babe.
	So let's say we do things Stefan's way.
	Let's say, like, maybe we, like...
	I'm the one who has to be in charge, and I'm telling you what to do.
	I'm not trying to be in charge of telling you what to do.
	I'm telling you what logically is the case in relationships.
	But sorry, go ahead. Okay, okay.
	So let's say we do things the way what Stefan is...
	Stefan kind of rejects my whole idea of the growth relationship.
	So what we do is we just accept each other all the way.
	So it'd be a thing going forward, like no more exercise, no more beauty stuff.
	No, no, no.
	That's not even close to what I'm saying.
	I'm saying no more rejection and condemnation of something you voluntarily chose.
	Okay, yes. No, because I'm not saying no more exercise.
	I'm saying no more bullying.
	I'm saying no more condemnation.
	I'm saying no more rejection of something you already voluntarily chose.
	I'm not saying no more beauty.
	I'm not saying no more exercise.
	Who knows what she might want to do if she's not bullied?
	We don't know yet. At least we don't know much.
	So what I'm saying is don't reject what you already chose.
	Stop rejecting what you already chose and accept the person, which means to accept your own choice.
	Like, you chose her and you say, oh, she's not resilient or whatever, right?
	Okay, she's bounced back from the deaths of three babies in one year.
	I mean, that seems pretty fucking resilient to me.
	And I don't think that I would be able to do that and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't either.
	Okay, so maybe you'd stop taking this resilience thing, right?
	Women have a different kind of resilience, right?
	How are you with very little sleep?
	I'm not great. My wife can get up four times with the baby and she's fine.
	Can she bench-press as much as me?
	No. So I'm just comparing my strengths to her weaknesses by saying she can't bench-press.
	She could easily turn around and say, oh yeah, Baldy, how about you with no sleep?
	Then she's comparing her strengths to my weaknesses.
	What's the point of what if we won?
	We haven't won anything. So you're saying she's not resilient.
	My God, I don't even know if I'd get out of bed again if I lost that.
	She's here, she's talking, right?
	She's acting. She's moving in the world.
	You're trying to judge her by your standards.
	And that's why I asked if you were gay or not.
	Do you want her to be like you?
	Do you want her to be a man? She's not.
	She's a woman. She's different. Is she more emotional?
	Yeah, probably. And that's good.
	Because she's a woman. And you're attracted to women.
	But sorry, so let's say that you do go ahead with this, stop attacking each other for what you've chosen, and then what?
	Yeah, so no more bullying, but this would be a reciprocal kind of equal deal where you could never ask me to change anything about myself.
	Does that sound good?
	Fortunately, I'm no longer a promiscuous man, so there's that big thing that you don't have to worry about anymore, but there'd be nothing else that you could ask me to change about myself.
	I'm not asking you to change, John.
	Yeah, but nothing else.
	You could never come to me and ask me to take better care around the house, because that's not my natural inclination of what I'm good at.
	Here and you live here.
	Yeah, so I need to make changes.
	I need to make changes. No, no changes.
	No changes.
	We're responsible for our home.
	Okay, another example.
	You may have emotional needs of me being supportive of you, but I want to be a workaholic that's working on the projects that I'm so passionate about all the time.
	Even if you really needed my emotional support, you could never ask me to change into being a little bit less of a workaholic and being more of a supportive husband.
	Well, no, and so the point is, you don't have to get everything you want just from your spouse.
	Right, so if you're not particularly good at emotions, you're in the middle of a big project, she needs some emotional support, she's got a mother, she's got sisters, she's got female friends, she can go and talk to them, and so it doesn't all have to come from one person.
	That may be asking sort of the impossible.
	Yes, I have friends. Yeah, so you'd be okay with going forward with Stefan's plan of like that we, yeah, no growth relationship is a silly idea and we're just going to stay the way we are.
	And then we're never going to make changes for each other.
	No, you can make changes if you want, but you just can't bully.
	You can't bully and you can't condemn the other person.
	Right? So, you know, if I see my wife struggling with something, I'll jump up and help her.
	Of course, I want to help, right?
	I'm more tidy as a person because I live with other people.
	I'm more tidy. Now, nobody's ever nagged me into that, but you'd be amazed at what people do.
	It's sort of like the free market thing.
	Like if the government runs everything...
	And then people say, oh, so if the government's going to stop running this, you'll be fine without it.
	It's like, who knows what's going to come up in the absence of that?
	Who knows how you guys are going to change when you stop aggressing against each other, when you stop condemning each other and bullying each other?
	Who knows how things are going to change?
	Will there be change? Will there be growth?
	I imagine there will be.
	And it'll be meaningful because it's voluntary, not aggressed, not forced, not condemned, not bullied.
	So, it's a false dichotomy to say, okay, so if we're not bullying each other, then there's no change at all.
	It's like, what are you talking about?
	It's like, okay, so if the government doesn't provide healthcare, there'll be no healthcare at all.
	It's like, I don't know what'll come up.
	I know that coercion in healthcare is wrong, and the idea that there won't be any change, there won't be any growth.
	You guys don't know what it's like on the other side of not condemning each other.
	There'll be change, there'll be growth, but it'll be meaningful, it won't be...
	And the other thing that I thought about just when I was first starting to read your message was, you know, this whole, we're going to have this growth relationship or whatever, that's just, to a large degree, that's because you're not busy enough.
	Because if you've got, let's say you've got, I don't know, a couple of kids under the age of five, right?
	The idea that you're going to have this, you know, growth relationship and work on this and work on that, it's like, man, you're just...
	When my daughter was younger and the show was growing, and I had this in my business world too, in my business career, I literally felt like the day was like me getting shot out of a cannon and then I just kind of bang against the wall at the end of the day and try and get some sleep.
	And so when you're really busy, you don't really have to worry too much about all of this growth and this and that and the other.
	I mean, obviously you guys know that biologically you were designed to have kids decades ago.
	And the fact that you haven't means that you have a lot of extra...
	Time to, in a sense, create problems that otherwise you'd be dealing with kids and solving issues to do with parenting and juggling career and home.
	I mean, you'd be busy enough that you wouldn't be making up all of this Growth Academy stuff that you're doing.
	I think you're absolutely right.
	Have kids, be busy and love your kids and then you'll look back and say, I can't believe
	that we had this whole Growth Academy thing.
	We just needed to have some kids and we're busy enough.
	During the last pregnancy, I started reading a really good book on parenting, and it sounds like there's a bunch of different parenting experts, including the woman who is, I think, the originator of the peaceful parenting stuff, and a lot of the parents in the book were really into the kind of growth stuff.
	So to change the other person according to what you want them to be?
	Well, if it's possible in a diplomatic and non-bullying, non-condemning way...
	But no, guys, guys, no.
	Maybe for some people, not for you.
	Because you're like somebody who's been an alcoholic for 25 years saying, well, maybe I can just have a drink once in a while.
	Nope. Because you guys have been aggressive with each other for years.
	I'm sure there's been aggression in your previous relationships.
	So you can't do it any more than an alcoholic can just sometimes have a couple of drinks, in my view.
	Like, if you've had a habit of aggression, you need to have no aggression.
	If you've had a habit of trying to bully the other person to get what you want, you've got to say no to it.
	Well, what about this? Nope.
	Like, if you're a smoker, if you're a chain smoker, can you just have a couple of cigarettes once in a while?
	Nope. Nope. That's just an excuse to get back into the addiction.
	So if the first thing I say is stop bullying and being aggressive with each other, well, what about all the exceptions?
	There are no exceptions for you.
	There are no exceptions because you're trying to break a habit of a lifetime.
	So the moment you're trying to create, oh, I read this book and they were into this growth, it doesn't matter.
	You guys have got to stop being aggressive with each other and there's no exceptions.
	Because if you have exceptions, I guarantee you, all you'll do is slide right back into square one.
	You'll slide right back to the beginning and you'll do it all over again.
	No exceptions. Because it's telling to me that when I say here's the rule, or I suggest this is the rule, you say, well, but I saw these people who broke this rule, and what about this?
	And then you say, well, then you can't ever tell me to clean up around the house.
	It's like you're just trying to create exceptions, because you don't like the idea of having to commit to no aggression without exceptions.
	And I get that. I understand that.
	I'm just telling you that if you create exceptions, you might as well not try at all.
	Like if the guy says, well, I really want to quit drinking, but I still want to Have beers on Saturday night.
	It's like, okay, well then you're not really gonna quit drinking, are you?
	Okay, I had an uncle who was able to drink once in a while It's like, yeah, but he wasn't an alcoholic for decades.
	So it's a different thing. So anyway, I think that's most of what I wanted to get across.
	So if you wanted to say anything here at the end.
	Oh, I just wanted to say that I was a smoker for many years, but I quit because I wasn't addicted.
	And actually, if I... Because I asked you.
	Yeah, because I asked you.
	Yes, because you asked me and because I compromised.
	Yeah. And I knew I was not addicted and I could give them up.
	No problem. Yeah, that was a growth relationship moment right there.
	That was something I voluntarily agreed to do.
	Well, it's something she wanted to do.
	I mean, you wanted to quit, right?
	Every smoker wants to quit. No, no, no, she didn't.
	I talked her into it.
	Oh, come on, man. Are you saying that she had no idea of any health problems for smoking?
	She didn't mind at all the costs.
	She didn't mind the smell.
	She didn't mind any of that stuff.
	She didn't mind the inconvenience of having to go out and get cigarettes.
	She didn't mind any of that. She had no opinion whatsoever about quitting smoking.
	We're in Eastern Europe, Stefan.
	No, I got that.
	So she had no opinion about smoking?
	I totally had an opinion about smoking.
	You liked it. Yes, I actually would enjoy smoking, but I was not addicted.
	I knew I was not addicted, and that I could quit any time.
	Okay. Like, many people say that, but I actually was like that.
	Okay. Okay. So were you happy to quit?
	I mean, was your life better after you quit as a whole?
	Yes. Okay. So that's something you wanted to do.
	So you wanted to quit smoking to some degree at least, but you don't want to exercise.
	So your husband's saying, can we do this thing that's better for you that you kind of want to do anyway?
	Yeah, sure. But if you don't want to do it and then he escalates to bullying, for sure you won't want to do it.
	Because if there's one thing I know about Eastern European women, they'll do just about everything you ask them nicely to do and they'll do absolutely nothing you order them to do.
	Right. Just it's like true human nature as a whole, right?
	People don't like being ordered and bullied.
	They don't like ultimatums. And then they'll change maybe for a little while, but it's grudging and there's blowback.
	Yes, that's maybe why I have been falling off the wagon a lot.
	Which wagon? With the exercise thing.
	Oh, yeah. No, you don't want to be bullied at exercising because then you feel like you're less of yourself.
	And you'd say, listen, if you don't exercise, you don't care about me.
	It's like, well, if you bully me to exercise, you don't care about me because you're just trying to substitute my will with your aggression.
	So how do you care about me?
	I agree 100%.
	So yeah, I would say in general, just say no to the bullying and the aggression and see how it plays from there.
	Will there be change? Sure, but yeah, but it'll be organic.
	It'll be organic. It'll be natural.
	It'll be chosen. It'll be free.
	And it won't be bullied and it won't be punished and it won't be condemned.
	The absent won't be condemned.
	Because it's not change if you're bullying.
	You don't get change if you bully people.
	All you do is get conformity.
	And that's not satisfying, so it doesn't work.
	Change has got to be voluntary.
	Change has to be uncoerced.
	Otherwise, it's just conformity and it's not working, right?
	Exactly. Hey, Stefan, I'm willing to try what you're suggesting here, and I could listen back to this podcast so that I'm understanding things perhaps a little bit better than I have this first go through.
	Can I share with you kind of what my fear is?
	Okay, but listen, we've got to keep it fast because I'm running out of time here, but go ahead.
	Yeah, sure thing.
	So I'm not going to ask my wife to make any type of changes going forward.
	I'm going to go to the gym, as you have encouraged me, and she's going to be at home relaxing.
	However, me and you both know that wives influence husbands in very subtle and persistent ways.
	And I can easily foresee this future where I say, yeah, okay, babe, no more pressure on anything at all, okay?
	And so she's not going to – yeah, she's not going to do any of the things that would have paid me.
	Okay, I asked you to do concise.
	Okay, please, tell me what your fear is.
	Don't give me the whole backstory like Lord of the Rings here.
	I just need – what's the fear?
	Yeah, you got me on the highway to being a simp here, who is the woman's, she's going to be the boss.
	We're going to have matriarchal tyranny over here.
	So you chose a woman who's a bully?
	No, I don't think she's a bully, but she's just persistent.
	Oh, a tyrant! Sorry, you chose a woman who's a tyrant.
	No, I don't think so.
	Okay, so what are you worried about matriarchal tyranny if you didn't choose a woman who's a tyrant?
	I know she is going...
	I will be very surprised if she manages to never put any pressure on me to change in some way that she might like me to change.
	Oh, no, she will absolutely do it, and so will you, because you've got to have it.
	Yeah, she'll absolutely do it, and so will you.
	But instead of worrying about how she's going to do, what she's going to do, what the blowback could be, five years, ten years, whatever, right?
	Just say, I'm sorry...
	I'm sorry for bullying you. I'm sorry for choosing you and then condemning you.
	And you both owe each other this apology, in my humble opinion.
	And then just focus on yourself, because you'll have the urge to aggress against each other.
	You'll have the urge to condemn each other for not doing what each other wants.
	You'll have that. And you'll have enough of your hands full, in my opinion.
	You'll have enough of your hands full just managing your own habits and breaking these habits.
	Just worry about what you're doing.
	Worry how to break your own habit. Like if you're addicted to alcohol and she's addicted to food, you worry about your addiction to alcohol.
	When you start policing her addiction to food, you're going to lose and drink again, right?
	So just focus on your own habits, your own thoughts.
	And yeah, you can create some imaginary disaster where I end up being, I'm either a bully or a simp.
	It's like, well, that's what they call a false dichotomy, right?
	And when you listen back to this, don't listen to what I'm saying or what I'm suggesting.
	Listen to the reasoned arguments behind what it is that I'm doing.
	If you accept the arguments, do the right thing.
	If the arguments are faulty, please let me know and I will refine them.
	But I put forward not my way of doing things.
	I put forward rational arguments.
	It's not compatible to say you love someone And you also condemn them.
	It's not compatible with your own free will and choice to say you have chosen something and then you get to condemn it.
	So if you listen, there's a lot of really rational arguments in here.
	And of course there are bad emotions, but listen to the arguments.
	That's why I interjected earlier.
	I'm not telling you what to do.
	Don't do things my way.
	I'm making a series of arguments.
	And if they're valid and you claim to be rational, which I know you both do, if they're valid and you claim to be rational, then you have to follow them.
	I mean, so do I, so does everyone, right?
	I mean, if someone tells me how to get to Vladivostok and I want to get to Vladivostok and they're correct, then I do what they say.
	It's not because I'm obeying them, it's because I want to get to Vladivostok.
	And if we want to be reasonable, we listen to reasonable arguments and act on them.
	And if we don't, that's fine.
	Then don't pretend to be reasonable.
	Just say, well, I'm an emotional, irrational person.
	I like to bully and I like to pretend I didn't choose someone.
	I like to reject people I claim to love.
	But yeah, we all like to be rational as a whole.
	So yeah, you can create a disaster scenario where, well, the moment I give an inch, she's going to take a mile.
	And the moment I'm not bullying her, it's going to be a tyranny.
	And it's like, yeah, well, but that's just the addiction, right?
	The addiction is bad things will happen if I stop.
	That's part of what the addiction is, right?
	And making up negative consequences for doing better is fundamental to being addicted to not doing better, if that makes sense.
	Will you guys keep me posted about how it's going?
	Yeah. Yeah, sure stuff.
	Well, listen, great conversation, guys.
	I really, really appreciate it.
	You did both fantastically, and I really...
	I really do appreciate the back and forth.
	I think it was great. And I really, really look forward to hearing how it's going.
	And I wish you the very best with your next pregnancy.
	I hope it's smooth sailing all the way.
	And I expect baby pictures if I don't hear from you beforehand.
	Thank you so much.
	Thank you so much for everything, Stefan.
	We both appreciate the insight and the advice.
	And personally, they have helped me a lot.
	I have a lot of food for thought.
	Good, good. All right. Well, keep me posted, guys.
	Thanks again for a great chat. Okay.

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